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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:55:05

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Hello, dear Lister, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast whose words can burn stars and raise up empires and topple gods.

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Hello, sweetie.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, it's Matt Smith's 1st day on the job, and he's already dealing with the Anglican Church, his mother-in-law, Mrs. Doctor from the Future, and being chased upstairs by a bunch of angry statues.

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Let's see how he gets on as we discuss the time of angels.

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So, it turns out this is the first thing that Matt Smith ever shoots.

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How do you think he does, Simon?

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I think he does absolutely spectacularly, I have to say, there's an absolute beauty in his performance, particularly compared to the previous doctor in my humble view.

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I was so relieved when I started seeing his performance.

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There's a lightness of touch.

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He dances around the set.

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His feet are sometimes barely touching the ground.

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He has the ability to rattle off loads of dialogue that change subject in the middle of sentences, and yet it all makes sense.

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He's just absolutely spectacular.

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And if this is, I did not know this was actually the 1st thing that was shot.

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And so unlike some of the other doctors that, you know, shoot out of order at the beginning.

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I think he gets it right from the get go.

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It's amazing, isn't it?

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Because they've clearly recorded this first. and then what does he do between this and the 11th hour?

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There's another block, which is the Beast Below and Victory of the Daleks.

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So they do what they do with Peter Davidson and get him to shoot a few episodes before he does his, you know, 1st episode, but he just nails it instantly.

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By the time he recorded Time of Angels, he had watched every episode of the new series up to that date.

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Plus 2 of the Cybermen.

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And it's a bit of a tomb of the side men informed performance in a way because what Troughton does is he delivers his lines kind of very thoughtfully he very rarely gets angry.

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He does steal the scenes sometimes, but he's also happy to kind of downplay things and it is a really refreshing change.

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And I just think the way that, You know, here, he is, he's doing something that his doctor hasn't done before, sort of chronologically, which is, um, he's confronted almost immediately by River Song.

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And Riversong does this thing, I think, which is heaps like the 1st Romana, in that she's more competent than him, and she's in charge.

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And so he gets to be resentful, you know, and on the back foot.

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And he plays it so well because he's alternately amused by her and irritated by her in this sort of childish way.

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Yes, but the irritation never gets too much, does it?

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It's never childish.

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He is a little bit childish, though, a little bit petulant.

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Remember the blue boringers?

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like she switches on the stabilisers so that the camera stops shaking?

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There's wonderful moment in the TARDIS there, where he sits down having got a bit irritated and just breaks into a smile.

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Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of.

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I think he's quite lucky to have had Alex Kingston in his 1st story and in fact, in the 1st scenes that he shoots, because they were the ones on the beach, um, with Amy and River, because I think she brings out that slightly naughty schoolboy in the performance.

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And I think that informs his performance for the rest of his run and it was perfect, really.

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Because he does have a sort of posh schoolboy accent, doesn't he?

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He's terribly young and a little bit posh.

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And so he does sound like that and because he's ridiculously young.

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He sort of looks like that as well.

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Well, Simon said about a lightness of touch, I think, is right, because he does overplay some scenes in the best possible way.

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And then he underplays often the very next line.

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And so it's an idiosyncratic performance, but that's not a bad thing.

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It's perfectly judged.

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Yes, it's idiosyncratic, but not forced.

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It feels like, I mean, there's obviously a lot of thought and effort and planning that's gone into it.

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And yet it just feels like it spontaneously happens and that is, I think, the sign of a very good actor.

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I put it this way, the other day, where he looks like he's thinking about what to say very frequently and you can see him as an actor, not only thinking about what to do with the line, but it just seems like he's coming up with these words rather than just reciting them.

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Yes.

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And that's one of the things that they, they try and teach you in acting school is, is to think about what the character is thinking as they're about to say the line so that it's not, the character's not thinking.

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I've got this line to say in a millisecond.

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They're thinking, oh, I'm frightened.

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What are we going to do?

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And then the line comes out as a result of that emotion.

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And so you're right.

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Yeah, I think, you know, David Tennant's performance is very presentational, you know, he is interested in conveying something to an audience and that's a sort of slightly old-fashioned in a sort of rather British way of acting.

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Do you think that's because his stage actor, whereas Matt Smith isn't so much.

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That's possible because that sort of subtlety is not quite as suited for the stage as it is for the screen.

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That's absolutely a possibility.

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But I also think that Tennant was sort of brought up on Doctor Who, and that was kind of the style of acting sort of generally.

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Well, that's why acting has changed so much in the last 4 decades is because you've lost that background of actors being theatre trained.

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And so they don't come on to television and give a performance.

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They're more trained in the nuances of working with the camera.

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Yeah.

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I think it's more than that.

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I agree with that, that idea that it is a different style of acting that that tenant's doing versus what Smith's doing.

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But I hate to say it.

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I just think that tenant's not as good as an actor.

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It's not because he's going for a different way of acting.

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It's just because I think he can't inhabit the character or Tom or some of the other many of the other doctors that we've had.

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The tenant performance feels like a performance.

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I think that's why I don't like it.

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Yeah, I mean, I think there's an in-story reason for it feeling like a performance because both of Russell's doctors, and I may have said this before.

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Both of Russell's doctors are a lot like Russell in that they are externally very jolly and everything's brilliant or marvellous or wonderful, but there's a real kind of darkness and cynicism deep underneath.

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And we've seen the doctor drop that mask occasionally.

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So the tenant doctor is a performance.

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Smith's doctor is more like Moffat in that he's the smartest person in the room.

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He's sort of funny and silly.

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He's a man child.

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Surrounded by strong women.

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Yeah, and especially awkward.

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Yeah, socially awkward and a bit of a bastard as well.

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And so the performances is much realer, I think.

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We talked about River Song, and I have a feeling that she is a sort of controversial character, that she has a fairly mixed reception among Doctor Who fans?

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I wasn't aware of that.

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Um, I think she's a very popular part of the canon.

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There might be a fairly minority romp who don't like her, but I think that's because she's quite a flamboyant character.

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And so if you're very gun to use to use your vernacular, Nathan.

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You might not appreciate what she brings to the series.

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And I think Moffat might have seen Alex Kingston's performance in Silence Library and been informed by that because she is written quite differently in Time of Angels from how she is in the Library 2 partter.

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So things like hello, sweetie, which is the message that the doctor gets on the psychic paper in silence in the library now here hardens into the 1st thing that she always says.

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And later this season, she will also send the hello sweetie message to the doctor in a sort of weird archeological way.

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And there's an effort to make her glamorous and fabulous.

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So, you know, her very 1st entrance with that long dress and the impossibly skyscraper heels and everything.

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I mean, she's made to be iconic now.

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There's that wonderful shot of her using the gun as a sort of oxyacetylene torch to carve the thing into the home box, and it's just a shot of the corner of her fabulous sunglasses with the sparks reflected in them.

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Yeah, no, she's it's spectacular.

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I mean, I'm not aware of anyone who, you know, a group that actively doesn't, doesn't like her or doesn't like the character.

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Maybe it's because it's kind of like, is this supposed to have been Bernice Summerfield, but not.

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Is that anything to do with it?

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Well, there may be that, but I do think that she is different from Bernice.

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Bernice is a lot more kind of down to earth and stuff, whereas she is sort of ridiculously flamboyant.

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And I think that opening, seeing that fabulous heist scene, which eventually ends up, you know, that it's a very moffity thing to tell the story out of order or to have 2 time streams and a switch between them.

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But I do think it's absolutely marvellous.

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That she's so confident that all she needs to do is leave the doctor a message at some point in his time stream.

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He'll come and rescue her.

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And it's it's so tremendous.

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And there's even a point where the doctor says something like, you know, I'm not going to be there to just turn up every...

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Yeah, it's sweet that you think that.

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But you are.

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It's wonderful.

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Yeah, it's because I love that.

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I think the teaser on this episode is one of the best ever in its cleverness and just kind of like, you know, a little vignette all by itself, which you can enjoy.

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But I interviewed Jamie Matheson, who wrote oxygen and various other episodes.

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And he said that Moffat, who is always examining his past work and kind of things like that. um, specifically referenced this scene with River song floating out into space when he said to Jamie, look, I want to make space dangerous skin.

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I dont want any more scenes like that.

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But I mean, I don't know.

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You know, Moffat's always kind of 2nd guessing himself and going back and deciding that the things that he's done in the past for a mistake and we'll see more of that next week. then he'll redo than the next year.

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But I mean, the amount of fun in that scene is just unbelievably great.

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And it's the perfect place for it.

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But going back to the whole structure of that cold open sequence.

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It's so reminiscent of that Paul Cornell New Adventures sort of era where the doctor has already planted all these things, not sorry, we'll plant them in his future so that they're there for him in the past.

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It starts with Battlefield and it's a great reminder of that.

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That's what I was thinking when I was watching that episode was it's basically the new Adventures 7th doctor.

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And the great thing is that she is in many ways better at being the doctor than the doctor, which is so much fun.

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What's that, Romana?

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Yeah, yeah, well, that's exactly it.

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I love the joke and I've heard people complain about this joke as well.

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That the reason the TARDIS makes the wheeze and groaning noise, which Matt Smith does a brilliant imitation of while looking slightly embarrassed about doing it, is because he leaves the brakes on and she manages to materialise without it.

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Moffatt later claimed that she was just pulling his leg.

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Well, isn't that an exact reference back to the pirate planet where Romana does exactly the same thing and lands the Tartars perfectly without a bump?

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Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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That's right.

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It's wonderful.

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I mean, you know, uh, the master's hardest does that as well.

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So I'm not sure that Joker's Canon.

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But I mean, basically, I am completely on board with throwing out as much continuity as we need to throw out in order to have a really funny line like that.

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But don't you think it's also plausible that the master would be making the same mistakes about buying the status that the doctor does?

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He was a man, after all.

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So let's talk about the structure of the story, because I do think it's actually surprisingly straightforward for a Moffat script.

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Yes, but I think that's why it's successful because the plot is relatively straightforward, but it's got all of these layers sitting on top of that simplicity.

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And I think that's why you have a successful episode.

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Yeah, so you've just got basically a chase.

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You know, we discover...

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Yeah, well, we're heading up to the Byzantium because we think that there's an angel in there or whatever.

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Lord of the Rings, really.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And we've got a character party, some of whom get sort of picked off one by one.

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So it is super, super straightforward, but it's exactly what you said.

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There's enough going on as well at the same time that it still seems sort of smart and interesting.

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And narratively, it moves from sort of set piece to set piece or what we were talking about the other day, vignette to vignette.

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And they're all just strung together into this wonderfully cohesive hole.

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If I can add two, it's the things that are added are all relevant to what they're doing.

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It's not like there have been 3 other random things that have been thrown into the episode just to make it more exciting and fill it with incident and stuff.

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It's all, it's all built from that base and that's...

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It all drives the plot forward and it's all relevant to either the characters relationships with each other with rivers, bits and pieces gradually becoming more known as to who she is and so on.

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Or, you know, bits to do with the Byzantium and so on.

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It all builds from that.

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It's all got to do with time, hasn't it?

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And I mean that, as in how much work you can get done in a specific period, because I would say that for this 2 parter, Stephen Mothat had the most time he's ever had to write a script and put it together, and it shows, there's nothing missing, everything links together, It's perfectly structured.

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And so, um, you know, if you've got the time, he can deliver the goods 100%.

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This is the 1st script he writes for his season, isn't it?

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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So this is the sort of thing that we got in in series one where everyone was sort of bringing the idea that they'd had kind of slowly simmering for...

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And and, you know, like we just end up with some really incredible things.

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And so here, because the announcement is made quite early that Moffat's taking over, he has a whole season, I think, that operates a lot like series one in that we're trying something new.

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We don't know whether it will work.

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We make sure that we bring our A game.

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And this, you know, is such a departure from the early season 2 parties.

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We've already talked about how Moffatt adopts Russell's structure for the season, you know, with the opening on Earth, past, future, early season 2 parter, late season 2 parter, 2 part finale, all of that is all there.

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But compare this to all of the previous early 2 partters, which tended to be lighter, that often featured a returning monster, that sometimes had a sort of Sarah Jane vibe.

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This episode feels like should be a sort of episode 7 or eight.

179
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Yeah, or like the 9 and 10, you know, like...

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Yes, it's the impossible planet slot rather than the, you know, rise of the Sidemen slot.

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Especially because of the amount of continuing plot arc that is in that 2nd episode, but we'll get to that next week.

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It's basically the 2 parter where they turn the lights off.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So the that late season 2 part is always a bit darker.

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Human nature and...

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And Moffatt wrote 2 of those.

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You know, like Moffat wrote the empty child and silence in the library, you know, and this, I think, is a lot like that.

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It does feature a very popular monster returning, obviously.

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But it is reflective of his slightly more serious, slightly more sombre, slightly darker iteration of the show.

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You get that right from the 11th hour.

191
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Yes, there are funny bits.

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It's light.

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It's got its moments, but there's, there's something about it where it's all just, the silliness level is just dialled down just enough, I think, and except that I go back and look at the notes that I wrote when I was watching this, and basically I'm just copying down all the most hilarious lines from the dialogue, because he's a sitcom writer, and it's often really laugh out loud funny.

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It is, but it's not the lines themselves.

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It's how they're delivered.

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And I think they're actually funnier in something like this, those funny lines, then they are in the Rustically Davies era, because in the RTD era, it's all overplayed.

197
00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:15.660
Whereas here they're just thrown away.

198
00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:22.799
All those fabulously funny lines, that river and the doctor are saying to each other, they just disappear in a fraction of a second.

199
00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:24.059
And that's what makes them so brilliant.

200
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:36.539
I think, though, that Moffatt is willing to sacrifice a bit of realism in order to come up with just a really superb, funny sort of sitcom line.

201
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:41.940
And I think that I'm absolutely on board with that as a sort of priority.

202
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.160
I agree with both of you, actually, because I think it's actually quite silly in places.

203
00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:49.740
But the silliness is limited to the doctor.

204
00:18:49.799 --> 00:19:00.539
And so it's the Hinchcliffe template where the situations around are quite serious and threatening, but the doctor barrels his way through it being quite silly sometimes.

205
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:08.579
Okay, so let me move to a topic where I contradict you. which is that line verger, how we're doing with those explosives.

206
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:15.299
So you have the army, but they're the Anglican church for some reason.

207
00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:17.460
What do you think is happening there?

208
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:23.819
It's just a choice to do something interesting and make it kind of work and consistent.

209
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:28.619
But also it's a joke character, if you want to put it that way, played extremely straight.

210
00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:29.579
Yes, exactly.

211
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:36.059
But do you think that's also commentary on the power and corrupt nature of religion over time?

212
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:39.059
I think it probably has its origins there.

213
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:55.140
I think Russell is much more obviously opposed to religion. and there's things like it being listed among the weapons that are forbidden on platform one and the adherence of the repeated meme, which meant something quite different in 2005 than it would now.

214
00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:07.380
But there is that moment where they talk about applands, the 2 headed applands getting into relationships and how the church outlawed it or looked down on it.

215
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:14.819
And, you know, you have the doctor say, oh, typical church and Father Octavian gets kind of offended and huffy about it.

216
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:22.799
And I think we get more of that later next year because this church will be back and we'll continue to be a feature of the Moffat era.

217
00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:26.039
But then you get that fabulous line about the divorces being really messy.

218
00:20:27.059 --> 00:20:41.039
I just saw it as a sort of a reference to the fact that, you know, back in the Middle Ages. popes and churches and bishops and things had standing armies in the same way that lords and counts and whatnot did in kings.

219
00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:45.599
I thought it was just a sort of a, oh, it all comes around again and, you know, like the 2nd Roman Empire.

220
00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:46.380
Exactly.

221
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:47.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

222
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:48.240
Or the crusades.

223
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:50.400
But it does make it more interesting.

224
00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:52.740
Like, you could have just had army people.

225
00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:58.500
And there's even a sort of wonderful visual moment where one of the soldiers turns.

226
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:04.859
He's sort of half looking at the camera and he looks exactly like Dwayne Hicks does in the dropship in aliens.

227
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:09.299
Like, it cannot not be a direct visual reference to that.

228
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:19.380
Well, it's interesting you say that because when Moffatt was writing this, his idea for this story was aliens to alien this to blink.

229
00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:31.980
Yeah, because the other thing that he does is what aliens does, which is we actually learn more interesting new things about the angels.

230
00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:34.859
And it moves it into a different genre.

231
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

232
00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:40.799
So they are functionally a lot like the Marines and aliens, aren't they?

233
00:21:40.859 --> 00:21:45.420
But I think making them the church is a Doctor Who thing to do.

234
00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:53.339
Like it's a mashup and it gives us those sort of hilarious lines about verges and explosives.

235
00:21:53.400 --> 00:22:11.700
It's interesting because that's oft quoted what Moffat says about Blink being alien and this 2 part of being aliens, but it's also the Empire Strikes Back versus Star Wars, because it takes that sort of wonderful source material, and it deepens it and darkens it and kind of adds mythology to it.

236
00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:20.220
I think the most interesting thing he does is he makes the angels even more kind of metaphysical.

237
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:22.140
So they were always impossible, weren't they?

238
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:27.240
They were, and they were designed to fit into a particular plot.

239
00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:34.859
So blink is a puzzle box, and it requires the angels to have certain characteristics just to get the plot to work.

240
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:40.500
And in particular, it's the, you know, they send you back in time and feed off your time energy and stuff like that.

241
00:22:40.559 --> 00:23:07.740
Here, he's got a completely different plot, and he needs to get them to do different things, but we still learn more things about them, and I think the idea, The idea of the angels is, I think, that they turn up in a television program and it's when you view them that they're powerless and when you stop looking at them, they can possibly attack you.

242
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.940
And given that we engage with television by watching images.

243
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:25.740
It's telling that in blink, the angels don't move when they're observed by characters in the show, but they also don't move when we're watching them as well. so we never see them move at all.

244
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:41.519
And so having an angel on television come out of the television and threaten Amy because the angel on your TV screen is also an angel because the image of an angel is in itself an angel.

245
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:47.640
But isn't that also that typical sort of wonderful Moffatt thing of getting at the things that frighten you as a child.

246
00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:56.220
You know, a small child will think that the person on the television screen can see them as much as you can see the person on the television and it harks back to that.

247
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:02.160
But the other wonderful thing is I love the effect, they have this low def video effect on it, and that, I think, makes it all the more creepy.

248
00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:02.700
Yeah.

249
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:08.160
And the way that she deals with it by waiting until the picture drops out and pausing the video.

250
00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:09.660
It's very retro.

251
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.119
It's like us going back to a VHS in the 80s or something.

252
00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:12.539
Yeah.

253
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:21.779
And it's a great scene for Karen because I think you were pointing out the other day, Nathan, when we were talking about it, it gives Amy a chance to be properly clever to get out of it by herself.

254
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:24.539
She doesn't need rescuing by the doctor and river.

255
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:38.160
And the way that it's shot is really important for Amy, because you have all of those big close-ups on the smooth round angel face matched by big close-ups on Amy's wide-eyed face.

256
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:39.900
And so there's kind of a resonance there.

257
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:41.099
Yeah, yeah.

258
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:52.019
I also think too, it's quite clever that we're intercutting between that scene and the doctor reading the book that doesn't have any pictures in it because a picture of an angel is itself an angel.

259
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.619
So he discovers what she's experiencing at the same time.

260
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:04.500
And even though he runs to the dropship or wherever they are and sort of tries to help her out, she's the one who comes up with the way of solving it.

261
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:09.539
And again, this is Karen's 1st day and she is incredible.

262
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:10.980
I love her.

263
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:12.000
She is brilliant.

264
00:25:12.059 --> 00:25:15.420
You know, I think she's such a good companion.

265
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.119
She's an actress, but she's also such a good companion.

266
00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:20.279
The way, you know, she has that teasing of the doctor.

267
00:25:20.339 --> 00:25:27.000
Just, just, it goes back to the way Sarah Jane would tease Tom or Tegan would tease, tease the Davidson doctor.

268
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:30.000
It's just got they just got the relationship right.

269
00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:36.240
But if I can just catch it on the book and the way the doctor's reading the book and discovering it as we're discovering it through Amy.

270
00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:39.900
I mean, that is a classic way of building tension in that way.

271
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:45.240
You know just words ahead of what the characters on the screen are saying.

272
00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:47.339
You know, you already caught up.

273
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:48.180
You're ahead of them.

274
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:54.180
And that's what creates this wonderful moment of tension because you've got the 2 scenes going on in parallel and it just builds up beautifully.

275
00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:18.900
The other thing that's sort of super interesting is the reveal that the statues that they've been walking beside of all the time are actually literally all angels.

276
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.740
It's not one angel, but it's an entire maze full of angels.

277
00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:30.660
And again, you realise that practically at the same time as the characters, oh, no, they've only got one head.

278
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:31.920
Yeah, yeah.

279
00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:45.180
In fact, I think it's cleverer than that because the doctor realises it and River realises it immediately and both of them or River at least says, how can we not have seen that?

280
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:47.819
And it's possible that on 1st watch.

281
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.279
You haven't picked up on it either.

282
00:26:50.339 --> 00:26:58.859
Because all the Appland dialogue about the Applands having 2 heads is played for comedy because it's as silly as anything and it's all about them snogging and stuff like that.

283
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:02.880
You just think, oh, well, this is sort of wonderful, silly throwaway Doctor Who dialogue.

284
00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:05.460
But, of course, it becomes an absolute clue.

285
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:10.380
And then the moment you find it out, then you think, 0 my god, how did we not realise that as well?

286
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:20.099
And he'll do this next week where the doctor realises something and River realises it before the doctor actually articulates it.

287
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:33.900
And it's one of the things that Moffatt is capable of that not every Doctor Who writer is capable of, which is making the characters properly smart because you need a smart person to write smart people.

288
00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:40.859
And so often the doctor is blustering or charismatic or whatever and solves things that way.

289
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:45.839
But more properly makes the doctor smart again, I think.

290
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:52.079
But also in the old series, often writers would make the mistake of having the doctor explain to the characters around them.

291
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:55.200
And so therefore the characters around them were stupid.

292
00:27:55.259 --> 00:28:00.779
Whereas what Moffat does is make the characters around the doctor smart, and so they interact with him on the same level.

293
00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:04.559
And he just pushes it that little further, it says, and that means or whatever.

294
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.259
He gets them to reach the conclusion.

295
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:07.680
Yep.

296
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:10.619
And that becomes now suddenly properly scary.

297
00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:17.579
Like that changes the nature of everything we've seen up to that point, which is we're just, you know, walking among statues of the dead.

298
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.559
Now it turns out there's a whole army.

299
00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:28.019
And I think that's the point at which the doctor realises that the crash of the Byzantium isn't an accident, that the angel has sent it there so he can rescue all of the other angels.

300
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:31.019
Isn't it great too, that you see all this written on his face?

301
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:42.420
Like there are those moments where he's he's looking, not at the camera, but sort of vaguely towards the camera and everyone else is behind him and you can see his his eyes dart and he's sort of thinking and you can you can see the thought process going and working it out.

302
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.460
It's very Sherlock, admittedly, that sort of thing.

303
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:45.299
Yeah, yeah.

304
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:52.920
And of course, Sweet Little Bob, the actor who plays Bob, went into Hollyoaks after this, obviously liked being surrounded by inanimate objects.

305
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:56.400
He is so pretty.

306
00:28:56.460 --> 00:28:57.960
He is very pretty, yes.

307
00:28:58.019 --> 00:28:59.579
The loveliest eyes.

308
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:04.019
I mean, he must have been cast for his voice because his voice is so innocent.

309
00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:07.799
Well, I mean, he's only on screen for like one scene.

310
00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:21.660
And it's that it's Moffatt sort of riffing, I think, on army of ghosts where, you know, a character goes and gets taken over by Cyberman and then calls another character and says, here, come and look at this interesting thing.

311
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:22.200
What is it?

312
00:29:22.259 --> 00:29:23.220
I'm not going to tell you.

313
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:24.240
Just come and look at it.

314
00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:25.500
And it happens twice.

315
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:27.960
It happens 3 times.

316
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:29.279
That's right.

317
00:29:29.339 --> 00:29:31.680
And it's another Moffat thing.

318
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:38.460
And I think that I'm still at the point where I'm happy for Moffat to do his things again.

319
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:46.619
And this is a dead person who is still in some sense conscious and is speaking.

320
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:59.279
And so that's another thing that's never been done before with the angels because they're voiceless, but they're given the voice of Bob, and that works because A, it's terrifying.

321
00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:02.220
You know, he's been torn to pieces and his brain's being used.

322
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:08.339
Lovely, innocent young man. being used by these evil creatures.

323
00:30:08.339 --> 00:30:12.660
And the way that Angel Bob describes his dad.

324
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:14.099
Yeah, yeah. is just horrific.

325
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:15.960
So he's at both at the same time.

326
00:30:16.019 --> 00:30:18.720
He is the dead bob, but he's also the angel.

327
00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:22.140
It's just the angel Bob has the dying Bob's memories.

328
00:30:22.259 --> 00:30:25.559
It ripped out my cerebral cortex or something.

329
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:26.039
Yeah, yeah.

330
00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:32.519
But it just means that that angel now has a voice, but it's not a sort of scary, you know, Gabriel Wolf voice.

331
00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:34.559
He keeps calling the doctor, sir.

332
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:36.900
He's referring to the angel in the 3rd person.

333
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:41.460
The doctor will trick him next week into saying the words comfy chairs.

334
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:43.440
You know, like, it's fun.

335
00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:44.700
It's still terrifying.

336
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:47.519
It doesn't make the angels any less terrifying, but it's much more fun.

337
00:30:47.579 --> 00:30:49.500
You should have been so for a reasonable comfort.

338
00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:50.579
It should have.

339
00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:53.640
When the doctor says about stripping his cerebral cortex.

340
00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:55.259
It sounds like de veining a prawn.

341
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:58.079
Yeah, throw another bulb on the Barbie.

342
00:30:58.140 --> 00:30:59.940
I think Moffat missed a trick.

343
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.779
He should have been a radio writer as well, because so many of his rightly tricks are to do with voice and things like that.

344
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:16.019
And we'll see it again in world and often time and the doctor falls, where that whole scene is built around the fact that the patients aren't being treated for pain.

345
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:17.460
They're just having the volume turned down.

346
00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:18.240
Yeah, yeah.

347
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:20.099
And he's so good at that kind of thing.

348
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:24.000
If I can just touch on what you're saying about, you know, the Angel Bob thing, it's so fun.

349
00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:26.880
Okay, yeah, he gets to say comfy sofa and all that business.

350
00:31:26.940 --> 00:31:28.259
But it's not fun.

351
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:31.500
It's very dark I mean, I know that it allows.

352
00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:32.579
See, this is what I'm trying to say.

353
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:40.799
It allows for these witty lines to be thrown away here and there. like the word sofa, but it's actually a very dark creepy thing.

354
00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:43.200
And I thought to being silly in a serious situation.

355
00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:43.920
Exactly.

356
00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:46.319
And I think that's worth underscoring.

357
00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:56.339
Do you think that's why the humour works so well in these stories is because of that juxtaposition between the lightness of the humour and the darkness, the story.

358
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:01.079
Yeah, 100%, but it's because the humour isn't the central thing, the humour is the layer.

359
00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:03.720
It's the, it's the garnish.

360
00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:04.079
Thank you.

361
00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.099
You know what I mean?

362
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:07.920
And I think it's when the humour becomes what it's about.

363
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:10.319
That's when it's been...

364
00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:12.119
I mean, you can do that from time to time because it's fine.

365
00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:16.500
You know, you still want to do love and monsters or whatever, but it can't always be like that.

366
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:19.500
And I just think that it's got that creepiness.

367
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:27.599
But at the same time, you need the humour to dull the creepiness because otherwise, oh, actually, that's really, really good.

368
00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:29.880
As a relief, as a relief. as a relief.

369
00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:30.839
You need a humourous relief.

370
00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:32.579
And that's why I think the balance is right.

371
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:35.279
And that's why I think Moffat, by and large, gets the balance right.

372
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:37.019
But of course, he also just can't help himself.

373
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:38.880
He's just a clever funny writer.

374
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.019
So he's going to throw in jokes.

375
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.519
Do we like the whole concept of the angels now having a voice?

376
00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:45.720
Yes.

377
00:32:45.779 --> 00:32:46.619
I think so.

378
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:52.500
I think it's necessary for just purposes of exposition so that we know what the angels want and what they're doing.

379
00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:00.000
We do lose something because what's interesting about the angels in blink is that they're implacable and completely incomprehensible.

380
00:33:00.059 --> 00:33:02.220
You know, they're from the dawn of time.

381
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:06.420
They're in some senses sort of an elemental force.

382
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:11.099
They're described as having evolved and stuff, but, you know, how can that possibly have happened?

383
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:14.519
So it does take something away by giving them a voice.

384
00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:15.480
We know what they want.

385
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:25.559
But because what they want is so terrible, you know, like they laugh at one point next week, they are doing things just for fun.

386
00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:32.160
Like they're doing evil things. where they explain that Bob died in fear and pain.

387
00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:34.079
The angels were very keen for you to know.

388
00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:35.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

389
00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:39.960
So it actually allows them because they're manipulating the doctor there, aren't they?

390
00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:42.900
They're trying to get him angry is what's said.

391
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:48.299
And so giving us an insight into their thought processes, yes, we do lose something there.

392
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.480
But what we gain, I think, is absolutely worth it.

393
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:52.859
Yeah, I agree.

394
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:56.940
I think it's needed for, you know, a 2 part plot to work.

395
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:15.000
Otherwise, it had become a bit flat, but at the same time, I, there's a part of me that wants to see what might it have looked like had there been no angel Bob, because that also makes it very mysterious and you never quite know and unfathomable.

396
00:34:15.059 --> 00:34:15.300
Exactly.

397
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:18.840
And it's one of those things the more you get to find out about something, the more known they are.

398
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:22.500
And therefore, sort of the more normal they are, the more boring they are.

399
00:34:22.619 --> 00:34:27.360
There is something that I think is lost following all this that they've introduced since Blink.

400
00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:28.800
It's the Borg effect, isn't it?

401
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:29.639
Yes, exactly.

402
00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:30.599
Oh, queen.

403
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:32.219
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

404
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:35.460
I mean, it opens up storytelling, but, you know, people...

405
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:36.480
Well, exactly.

406
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:36.960
Yeah.

407
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:41.639
And before that, of course, you get Patrick Stewart playing Locutus, fulfilling the same function.

408
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:49.019
But it opens up the storytelling, but in many ways, the Borg were never as popular as they were in their 1st appearance or 2 when they didn't have that.

409
00:34:49.079 --> 00:35:01.739
Yeah, but, but, I mean, the Borg are a little bit boring in their 1st appearance, except, well, look, they're amazing, but they don't react to you when you wander around their spaceship in a way they're not a threat.

410
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:04.260
Basically just to rip off of the cyberman.

411
00:35:04.260 --> 00:35:04.500
Yeah.

412
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.659
Yeah, but also that's Deanna Troy as well.

413
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:13.380
But it is sort of like when the crinoid and seeds of doom suddenly talks to them when they're in the house.

414
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.179
You know, it's kind of like, where the hell did that come from?

415
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:16.380
And then it never happens again.

416
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.579
I guess, though, that we do gain new things.

417
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:25.860
And I do think the idea that the very sight of an angel is a threat.

418
00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:34.739
And we start to see, you know, Amy, Amy does a little bit of a sort of Barbara in Planet of Giants thing where she kind of downplays.

419
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:39.659
She's got something in her eye, but we're sort of downplaying it, and she rubs her eye and all this sand comes out and stuff.

420
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:40.980
I am just dying.

421
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:48.599
And so suddenly, not looking at an angel is deadly, but looking at an angel is deadly.

422
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:51.659
Deadly swear. beautifully a beautiful edition.

423
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:52.679
It's really good.

424
00:35:53.219 --> 00:36:02.219
And because angels are, they're iconic, you know, we think of them as associated with sort of gravestones and stuff, that's why they're called the weeping angels and things.

425
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:05.460
You know, they are an image.

426
00:36:05.460 --> 00:36:11.039
And so having them be an image in the show, I think, is sort of is terrifically good.

427
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:14.099
Oh my goodness, Karen plays those scenes well.

428
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:15.179
Oh, good.

429
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:17.579
That scene at the end where her hand is stone.

430
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:25.920
And, you know, we do the no leave me scene, you know, which the doctor just subverts wonderfully by just biting her.

431
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:28.199
And he kept biting her hand for real.

432
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:30.239
In the takes.

433
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:31.019
Yeah, in the takes.

434
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:40.800
Can I just also, though, go back to the angels, the changing of the angels because, of course, you have to, and that's, it opens the plot up and blah, blah, blah.

435
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:50.699
I wonder whether I necessarily wanted us to have the thing that the angels, you know, wanted Angel Bob to die in fear and terror and pain and all the rest of it.

436
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.519
I don't want them to have that motivation.

437
00:36:53.579 --> 00:36:57.360
I just want them to be sucking people back in time and I want them to be evil.

438
00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:58.199
You want them to be implacable.

439
00:36:58.260 --> 00:36:58.860
Exactly.

440
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:07.079
And I think they were, in some respects, it's more interesting when they're just implacable, but they have an evil effect rather than their motivation is evil, if that makes sense.

441
00:37:07.139 --> 00:37:09.059
I think it's, I agree with you.

442
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:20.039
I think it's slightly lampshaded in the writing by the fact that these are not the same angels, and so you have a species which has different motivations and worse examples of the species than others.

443
00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:21.239
Like the gunna dalek.

444
00:37:21.780 --> 00:37:28.139
And the implication is that these angels, what have been dormant for a very long time.

445
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:32.099
So they might be an earlier evolutionary part of it.

446
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.139
Well, they just got bored and they want to create some mischief.

447
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:34.679
Yes, exactly.

448
00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:38.340
Or did they did they eat all the app plans and then starve?

449
00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:40.260
You know what they say?

450
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:41.099
An app land a day.

451
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:44.159
Well, the athletic this time, the doctor came.

452
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:51.119
Well, we know that they died out and we didn't know why, and the doctor does say, ah, now we know why.

453
00:37:51.179 --> 00:38:01.019
So we do know that the angels have wiped out the app plans and we know that there's 6000000000 people in word peril on this planet.

454
00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:04.079
Somewhat unnecessarily who are going to be killed.

455
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:07.500
And so, look, I don't mind that so much.

456
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:16.380
What Moffatt does to monsters is he changes them so that he can tell the story that he wants to tell?

457
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:17.940
He does it.

458
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.219
But he does it, I think, more than anyone else.

459
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.139
You know, suddenly the cybermen can fly.

460
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:25.860
Suddenly a dalek can be a person with an eye stalk sticking out of their head.

461
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.400
You know, like all of those things. all the most successful examples.

462
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.519
I love that.

463
00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:34.559
But we will.

464
00:38:35.219 --> 00:38:39.420
It's a thing that we'll talk about more because it's the theme of this series.

465
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.260
It's that Moffat is all about storytelling.

466
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:48.420
And one of the things that stops this from being super straightforward.

467
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:56.820
And there's more of that next week than this week is the fact that people have partial knowledge that people forget things, that people lie to one another.

468
00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:59.039
All of that stuff is here.

469
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:11.219
And that's that's Moffatt fighting against a coherent external version of reality because his Doctor Who is all about telling stories.

470
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:18.599
And that will obviously reach a massive peak in the finale, but and more of it next week, I think.

471
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:28.619
Speaking of partial knowledge and people lying.

472
00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:31.019
You upset me.

473
00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:35.099
We do find out quite a bit about River Song.

474
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:35.760
Yes.

475
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.440
So it's funny.

476
00:39:37.619 --> 00:39:43.440
It's funny that Karen immediately identifies that it's the doctor's wife.

477
00:39:43.500 --> 00:39:45.059
And the doctor...

478
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.579
The doctor says, yes. straight away, but turns out he's saying yes about something else.

479
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.280
Yes, that's that's just beautiful dialogue.

480
00:39:53.340 --> 00:39:54.179
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

481
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:59.820
And then she needles him like repeatedly throughout the next two...

482
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:08.579
All the answers are in plain sight because when Amy says to very early on, she says to River and the Tartars, are you his wife?

483
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.039
River Song says you're very clever.

484
00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:12.239
I'm not saying yes.

485
00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:14.460
Of course she is saying yes.

486
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:20.340
I think my favourite line, though, in all of that sort of sequence is it's a long story and I don't know most of it.

487
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:21.480
Yeah, yeah.

488
00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:35.760
Again, you know, that stuff about partial knowledge, you know, the doctor and river both have sort of massive scary ignorances of what goes on in their relationship and even the nature of it.

489
00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:37.380
It's really sort of something.

490
00:40:37.500 --> 00:40:50.579
But I, I like that about Moffat, that's one of the things that I actually like is we know that they're married and the moment that we hear that she's killed someone even more so next week.

491
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.619
It's very clear that she's killed the doctor.

492
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:56.219
And he follows through on that in series 6.

493
00:40:56.280 --> 00:41:08.340
And it's a little bit like series 8 where Missy is probably the master and it turns out to nobody's surprised that she's actually the master.

494
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:18.780
And in a way, the actual revelation isn't the interesting thing, the being teased is the interesting thing.

495
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:34.800
That's a thing that people complain about with Moffat, that things don't always pay off or things that he teasers don't always properly get addressed, but again, it's stories and who cares?

496
00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:37.500
Is that what people complain about with Moffin?

497
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:38.159
Sometimes.

498
00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:41.940
I mean, I still don't know who why the Tardis blows up in the finale.

499
00:41:42.059 --> 00:41:44.940
But it doesn't really matter.

500
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:45.599
Yeah.

501
00:41:45.659 --> 00:41:46.500
Well, that's it.

502
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.659
There's lots of things that happen in Doctor Who that you don't know why.

503
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:49.139
Yeah, exactly.

504
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:49.500
I agree.

505
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:50.219
I absolutely agree.

506
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:54.179
And also, he does he does wrap everything up in time of the doctor.

507
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:54.900
Yeah.

508
00:41:54.900 --> 00:42:00.119
But with a few, he makes a stab at it Well, but again, he's kind of toying with this.

509
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:03.360
It's like, it's like the beginning of the 3rd series of Sherlock.

510
00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:08.820
Basically, the idea is any resolution of this cliffhanger is in some way going to be dumb.

511
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.099
So let's just kind of lean into it.

512
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:14.039
Moffatt's always clever and he's always writing to a high level.

513
00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:16.860
I think the thing that changes is the audience response to it.

514
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:23.699
So if you like what he's doing and where he's gone with it, you'll say isn't Moffat clever, if you don't, she'll say, well, he's being too clever.

515
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:26.039
And also he's doing his shtick.

516
00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:26.460
Yeah.

517
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:37.440
I remember there was that event at Fox Studios or in the Horton Pavilion, where Moffat came out with Capaldi and it was towards the end of the run, I think.

518
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:49.800
And an audience member actually said to his face, I mean, you know, in a room of a 1000 people that, oh, you're just going to come up with some Moffat thing to, you know, get out of whatever.

519
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.440
And he called them on it as he should.

520
00:42:52.500 --> 00:42:59.219
But isn't that, so is that what, is it what they're talking about, the fact that there's kind of like something that's just magicked up out of nowhere because that's actually not how I see his writing.

521
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:03.659
Or is it just the timey whiminess that some people find OTT?

522
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:05.940
That person mentors an insult that...

523
00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:07.500
No, no, that means the insult. was terrible.

524
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:09.300
It goes back to what I was saying.

525
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:12.539
I think if you like what he's doing, then you will sing his praises.

526
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.900
If you don't, you'll say he's being too clever and he's doing his shtick.

527
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.639
And so it's a purely subjective response to a 100% cleverness all the time.

528
00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:31.980
I do actually later in the run think that there are episodes where he's doing the thing that he's done before and maybe not as well.

529
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:37.920
And I do think that he does have a tendency to go back to a few sort of favourite tropes.

530
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:41.639
But I do like the cleverness of his writing.

531
00:43:41.699 --> 00:43:52.440
And I actually really like the aggressive refusal to build up a coherent world. like an active rejection of the universe.

532
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:59.280
And I think you've put your finger on one of the reasons why when this season started, I responded so differently to the program.

533
00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:03.599
I just recently heard your RTD era retrospective.

534
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:11.280
And many of you were talking about how comfortable and safe and cosy the Russ Sitty Davies era felt.

535
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:18.119
And I think you, Nathan, would talk about how, you know, there was a family in a home and you got you got a sense of A world.

536
00:44:18.179 --> 00:44:18.840
Yeah.

537
00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:25.739
Well, I think for me, the existence of that world, that kind of world in Doctor Who was what made me feel uncomfortable about it.

538
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:29.039
Whereas now we reject the concept of those worlds.

539
00:44:29.099 --> 00:44:33.780
Yes, there are still real places and there's still some sense of ongoing continuity.

540
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:47.340
But, you know, you go from, you know, an English village in the 1st episode to a totally imaginary and ridiculous idea of, you know, the English or English and Welsh population, whatever it is, on a spaceship in the nondescriptly distant future.

541
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:52.500
It doesn't matter that you have to be able to work out how that fits within arc in space and all this other stuff. you know what I mean?

542
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:54.539
It's just because of a function.

543
00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:59.400
Yeah, but my point is that there's not this sense of we're all in this continuous universe.

544
00:44:59.460 --> 00:45:05.699
There's no manual on the shelf where they've written the history of the universe from go to woe, and everything's got to fit within this world.

545
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:07.980
There is, you know, didn't Lance Park and right?

546
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:10.320
But you know what I mean?

547
00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:11.099
But it is a flavour.

548
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:12.360
It changes the flavour of the show.

549
00:45:12.420 --> 00:45:23.400
I think that's one of the brilliant things and one of the things I love so much about Moffatt's version of the show is that although the universe isn't coherent.

550
00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:35.940
He gives reasons for why it isn't as well, constantly is giving reasons for why continuity doesn't work, but it's so expansive and imaginative and...

551
00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:36.539
There are no boundaries.

552
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:38.099
There are no boundaries, exactly.

553
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:58.739
I mean, I love, I love the ITD era, because it uses his skills as a TV writer to do something to a show that can literally be anything and to find a way sure of circumscribing it, but of enabling a group of characters that you grow to love.

554
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:02.039
And it's super important for Russell.

555
00:46:02.099 --> 00:46:03.840
It's something that he's supremely skilled at.

556
00:46:03.900 --> 00:46:10.079
Think of years and years and it's a sin, you know, both of those, you end up with a group of characters whom you really like.

557
00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:14.519
And the ongoing impact of that is that it enriches the show.

558
00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:20.519
And bringing it back into a sort of TV environment that didn't really know about Doctor Who.

559
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:28.619
I think it was kind of the right approach, but when we go away from it, we can always go back and watch that, if that's what we want.

560
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:30.480
When we move away from it.

561
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:37.139
I've spent a lot of time thinking, you know, wishing there was a mum. in the Moffett era.

562
00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:41.579
And I do think Amy's mum who gets one scene in the finale.

563
00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:42.659
Isn't it River song?

564
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:43.380
No.

565
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.659
Isn't she the mum in the era?

566
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:46.440
Well, I guess so.

567
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:47.400
I guess she probably is.

568
00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:48.780
But she's a little sexier.

569
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:50.579
She's a MILF.

570
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:52.860
How dare you say that about Kimmel?

571
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:56.039
I actually think Amy's mum is really funny in that one scene.

572
00:46:56.099 --> 00:46:57.599
She gets some pretty funny lines.

573
00:46:57.659 --> 00:47:01.559
But it is fun to leave that.

574
00:47:01.619 --> 00:47:03.840
And then to do something sort of...

575
00:47:03.900 --> 00:47:06.000
Yeah, really ambitious and interesting.

576
00:47:06.059 --> 00:47:09.420
And a friend of the podcast, Eric, from the writer's room.

577
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:15.539
The last episode of his that I heard was talking about the 1st 2 episodes of series one.

578
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:26.579
And he talked about how great the universe that Russell creates is, but says that by the end he was finding it a bit stifling.

579
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:33.300
You know, I've observed before that Russell makes the same season 4 times in a very real sense.

580
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:34.320
There's a lot of variety.

581
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:35.039
Do you know what I mean?

582
00:47:35.099 --> 00:47:39.960
We go to the far future in the past and we have comedy episodes and dark episodes and horror episodes and stuff.

583
00:47:40.019 --> 00:47:44.940
Doctor Who can still do a lot of things, but it is kind of nice to see it set free from that a bit.

584
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.519
But it's like, it's a formula that works.

585
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:54.539
That formula works, you said earlier, earlier in this recording, that Moffatt uses that basic formula.

586
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:55.260
Yeah.

587
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:58.260
And and continues to do it until series 9.

588
00:47:58.380 --> 00:48:01.800
Yeah, that's a formula of just in Safari is how you structure the production of the season.

589
00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:06.599
That's not formula in terms of how the episodes are written particularly.

590
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:07.920
I don't know about that.

591
00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:13.739
Yeah, no, I think it's very much kind of in the Ross Lera and Moffat follows that in series five.

592
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:20.219
You have those 1st couple of episodes which sort of run the gamut of where Doctor Who goes, then you have the big fun 2 parter.

593
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:23.159
You have some character stuff in the middle, the darker 2 part.

594
00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:24.539
That's not just a function of production.

595
00:48:24.659 --> 00:48:33.840
No, but it's still, um, okay, yes, I get what you're saying, but I'm talking about production in terms of, well, how you do episodes about A, B, and C and how you kind of scatter them throughout the season.

596
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:37.260
Kind of like you might, you know, Barrelettes might have done in the early 70s.

597
00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:39.480
Separating Mark of the Ranian time lash.

598
00:48:39.539 --> 00:48:40.980
For example.

599
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:45.000
But it's still, it's still the bandwidth is open.

600
00:48:45.059 --> 00:48:47.699
And I'm not saying it was the wrong decision.

601
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:50.699
I totally get why they brought it back the way they did in all power to him.

602
00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:59.940
I think it's, you know, did a spectacular job, but it was just, there's a certain saminess that you get in the RTD era, which is, as you say, is necessary and important for all this host of reasons.

603
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:01.500
Great, fine, wonderful.

604
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:03.599
Thank God that's over, was my response.

605
00:49:03.659 --> 00:49:05.219
Well, it's Doctor Who, isn't it?

606
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:08.280
I mean, Doctor Who, there is no right approach or wrong approach.

607
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:16.679
And so Russell's version stands right alongside Stevens version, and they're both legitimate ways of doing Doctor Who.

608
00:49:16.739 --> 00:49:20.880
It's a little bit like going from the Letts era to the Hinchcliffe era.

609
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:21.239
Exactly.

610
00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:21.659
Yeah.

611
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:26.099
You know, the Let's era is cosy, is set in a coherent world.

612
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:28.380
There are lots of characters.

613
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.559
Perhaps they're not quite as well drawn as the ones in the RTD era.

614
00:49:31.619 --> 00:49:33.360
Oh, I don't know about that.

615
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:34.920
Corporal Bell.

616
00:49:35.460 --> 00:49:42.239
Then we get the Hinge Cliffera, and suddenly all that falls away and the universe is now bigger.

617
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:45.719
I think the mistake Doctor Who makes when it makes it is being the same for too long.

618
00:49:45.780 --> 00:49:46.440
Right.

619
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:47.159
Yeah, yeah.

620
00:49:59.219 --> 00:50:02.219
Let's finish off by talking about the cliffhanger.

621
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:14.460
I think that this has to be very high up in the, you know, hit parade of all-time great cliffhangers in Doctor Who history.

622
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:16.199
It's superb.

623
00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:18.300
And it builds perfectly.

624
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:20.460
From about the 3 minute mark out.

625
00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:22.739
You know that it's building to a cliffhanger.

626
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:23.519
You can feel it on screen.

627
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:45.360
And it uses that, um, the style of dialogue that you were, I think you were talking about earlier, Simon, um, that Matt Smith is just talking a 1000000 miles an hour and he, he's basically saying, don't, don't you cross me, you know, like you've made a huge mistake.

628
00:50:45.420 --> 00:50:46.079
It fantastic.

629
00:50:46.139 --> 00:50:49.619
It's basically all world word peril.

630
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:50.159
Yeah.

631
00:50:50.219 --> 00:50:57.360
But it's him going into that cliffhanger with power, not having the power taken away from him.

632
00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:02.400
It inverts the traditional cliffhanger of I'm being menaced.

633
00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:04.679
He's been menaced and now he's taking back control.

634
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:05.820
That's right.

635
00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:08.699
And the tension rises with the doctor's simmering anger.

636
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:10.739
That's why you know it's building a cliffhanger.

637
00:51:10.739 --> 00:51:13.019
Little cartoon Graham Norton comes along and ruins it all.

638
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:21.719
Do you know, I was at an Olympiad, a fan Olympiad in Britain, and we all watched this episode on the Saturday night after it.

639
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:28.559
And I think it was Gary Gillett who said that when the little cartoon Graham Norton came on over the doctor's final speech.

640
00:51:28.619 --> 00:51:33.179
He'd never heard such a rumbling roar of resentment from a crowd of people.

641
00:51:33.300 --> 00:51:37.679
Graham Norton just can't stop interrupting Doctor Who, can he?

642
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:38.579
It's a thing.

643
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:40.980
Oh, this was just because he was on next one.

644
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:41.639
That's right.

645
00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:43.440
And so it's a little animated dancing.

646
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.400
They started a few minutes early before the credits. started about 20 seconds earlier.

647
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:53.280
It should have come up over the end credits and like someone made a mistake and it pops up over Matt Smith's mouth.

648
00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:56.039
His incredible hero speech.

649
00:51:56.099 --> 00:51:57.900
Like, this is his Aristea.

650
00:51:57.960 --> 00:51:59.340
This is absolutely brilliant.

651
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.340
You see, there's a reason why I waited for the ABC transmission.

652
00:52:04.019 --> 00:52:06.360
I don't think I ever saw that.

653
00:52:06.420 --> 00:52:09.780
Maybe I had mysterious access to a mysterious copy.

654
00:52:09.780 --> 00:52:12.300
BBC. 3 repeats or something.

655
00:52:12.300 --> 00:52:16.440
And people wonder why broadcast television is dying. sure someone just mentioned it to you.

656
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:17.760
That's right.

657
00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:28.920
I think that the closest parallel to this is the end of Bad Wolf, where the doctor announces to Rose that he's coming to rescue her.

658
00:52:28.980 --> 00:52:31.619
And so this isn't us in peril.

659
00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:35.820
This isn't us discovering a new thing about the plot.

660
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:41.159
This is the doctor declaring his mission to solve the problem.

661
00:52:41.219 --> 00:52:42.780
Mission statement for the next episode.

662
00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:52.199
Yeah, yeah, but it also functions just this early on in his 4th episode as a very clear kind of mission statement for the doctor as a whole.

663
00:52:52.260 --> 00:52:58.380
I mean, unquestionably, it's a great cliffhanger just because it's not sort of die, doctor die.

664
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:12.000
But I have not really... trying to think of a really good cliffhanger in the in the modern era when there have been them and I don't think this is one of them, I confess.

665
00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:13.079
I think it's really great.

666
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:18.179
I think it's the, it's the, it's a cliffhanger doing something different.

667
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:29.940
My, my previous uh, favourite cliffhanger is uh, Happiness Patrol episode two, uh, which is OD doesn't, doesn't look like Daphne S went down too well now, does it?

668
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:36.539
Because that is some mysterious impending peril and the doctor thinking about it.

669
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:38.340
And that's an accidental cliffhanger.

670
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:41.039
And then the zoom in on Ace, like, she's next.

671
00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:41.820
Yeah, yeah.

672
00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:45.780
And she's sort of trapped in a poster, so she can't actually do anything.

673
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:48.000
When are we doing the happiness patrol?

674
00:53:48.059 --> 00:53:50.579
We should have done that at some point. at some point.

675
00:53:50.639 --> 00:54:06.000
It's like the cliffhanger is a sensible spot to stop the episode now and so we can continue the story later rather than it being a completely, you know, invented moment of peril so that you can stop the episode and continue next week.

676
00:54:06.059 --> 00:54:08.760
There's a moment of peril, though, because there's no way out.

677
00:54:08.820 --> 00:54:12.239
They're surrounded by angels that are coming to get them.

678
00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:17.219
You know, the soldiers are sort of desperately looking at them to prevent them from coming.

679
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:18.960
There's nowhere for them to go.

680
00:54:19.019 --> 00:54:22.199
And so it is, yes, in peril.

681
00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:27.900
But what Moffatt knows is that we know that the doctor's going to get out of the peril.

682
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:41.340
And so he gives the doctor a speech, and then an action, and the action is super compelling as well, because it's the doctor shooting a gun at something, and then we cut to something that's completely incomprehensible.

683
00:54:41.400 --> 00:54:42.300
Do you know what I mean?

684
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:47.099
It's the gravity globe maybe blowing up, but we don't really know what's happening.

685
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:57.059
And it allows that classic Moffat. device where he flips the entire story on its head in the next episode.

686
00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:57.900
That's right.

687
00:54:57.960 --> 00:54:59.880
Moffat uses cliffhanger as a pivot in the story.

688
00:54:59.940 --> 00:55:00.960
Yeah, yeah.

689
00:55:01.019 --> 00:55:06.420
Well, that's quite common, I think, in the modern year of the show, the 1st episode focusses on the one thing the 2nd episode focusses on the next.

690
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:08.099
Oh, it's Moffat that really introduces that.

691
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:13.920
Russell does it to an extent in Bad Wolf, but that's more thematically kind of tied together.

692
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:17.579
I think Moffat does it in the library 2 parter and then thinks that worked.

693
00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:18.539
That's a good one.

694
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:22.139
I mean, he sets it in a completely different place and possibly even later.

695
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:23.039
That's right.

696
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:25.199
The thing about the peril, which I agree with.

697
00:55:25.260 --> 00:55:33.179
But the thing that softens it in that beautiful way is when he asks River, do you trust me and she just says, always.

698
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:36.000
And it's so, yes, it's such a warm feeling.

699
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:37.320
Yeah, yeah.

700
00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:39.179
But I mean, we trust the doctor.

701
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:40.739
We know he's going to get out of the peril.

702
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.639
So having him declare that he's going to do that. doesn't blunt it in any way.

703
00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:46.380
It just gives him a massive hero moment.

704
00:55:46.500 --> 00:55:56.639
Yeah, I mean, I suppose when I'm talking about the, there's a lack of that, the full peril is that there isn't like, you know, the army standing, you know, centimetres away from them with guns at the heads where it's any resolution's just going to be dumb.

705
00:55:56.699 --> 00:55:57.179
Yeah.

706
00:55:57.179 --> 00:55:57.900
That's what I meant.

707
00:55:57.960 --> 00:55:59.639
You know, Moffat loves the arc in space.

708
00:55:59.699 --> 00:56:05.820
And I think he spends a fair proportion of this season looking to give the doctor an indomitable moment, and this is one of them.

709
00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:09.420
And then he repeats a similar kind of speech.

710
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:12.360
He goes, oh, wow, Matt Smith can do these kind of speeches.

711
00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:27.420
So he gives him a speech in his 1st story that's kind of similar in the sort of statement of who I am, what my what my purpose is, then and then at the end of the season you get another one as well. right.

712
00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:29.099
The Pandora opens a bit.

713
00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:30.119
Stonehenge.

714
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:30.420
Yeah.

715
00:56:57.480 --> 00:56:59.820
Well, then, listen, that's all we have time for this week.

716
00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:08.460
We'll be back next week for another meeting of the Adam and Matt Smith Appreciation Society, with this story's exciting conclusion, flesh and stone.

717
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:25.260
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FTE podcast on Twitter and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody into Terror.

718
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:31.619
Until next time, may you find a nice app plan to settle down with someday soon.

719
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:34.800
I'm sure you'll both make a lovely throuple.

720
00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:37.380
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

721
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:38.579
Ta-ta.

722
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:39.059
Good night.

723
00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:39.719
See you soon.

724
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:49.440
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Moore and James Selwood, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

725
00:57:49.500 --> 00:57:56.519
This episode, implacable and completely incomprehensible, was recorded on the 6th of February 2021 and released on the 4th of April.

726
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:16.380
So any alien monsters listening, the list of things you should never put into a trap also includes a clearly visible door, a control mode to the entire spaceship, the key, a massive gun, an interplanetary missile, an army of robot mummies, and that creepy stage hand who won't stop fondling your buttocks.

727
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:28.739
So, let's talk about the structure of the episode as a whole, because I actually think it's surprisingly straightforward for a Moffat story.

728
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:30.119
Oh yes.

729
00:58:30.179 --> 00:58:34.320
I think, oh, well, sorry, did I trade on that?

730
00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:36.539
Did I trade on that?

731
00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:38.579
No, no, no, no.

732
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:41.280
Because I can say, no, I'm about to say something. can you do that again?

733
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:46.260
Simon, was your, Oh yes, a quote from the Silurians.

734
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:47.099
Oh yes.

735
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:48.900
Oh, yes, yes.

736
00:58:50.219 --> 00:58:53.639
Because I said, yes, I said, yes, the top V, sorry.

737
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:54.239
No, that's right.

738
00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:55.079
I wasn't going to go.

739
00:58:55.139 --> 00:58:58.320
I was waiting to throw it for someone to...

740
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:02.648
So let's talk about the structure of the story because I do think it...