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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 17:45:27

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Hello, D listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast, which did fall for Mrs. Pogget's nice old

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lady act, and we're still trying to get the dust out of our

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favourite woolly jumper.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Johnny.

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And I'm a Zimmer frame with a dodgy 3rd eye and a terrible case of

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halitosis for this one.

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Well, this week we're freezing to death both in Ledworth and

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inside the spaceship while trying to work out what's reality and

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what's merely a dodgy children's science fiction program from the

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1960s.

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Are we Team Rory or Team the Doctor?

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Let's find out in Amy's choice.

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So Johnny, is this the cheap one?

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I don't know if it's the cheap one of the season, but it's

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definitely one of my favourites.

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And this is a season that I struggle with a little bit.

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I run a bit hot and cold on some of the episodes, um, often

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episode by episode, but if this is the cheap one, it shows that

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the, some of the most interesting stuff can come out of the, uh

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the one with the least resources.

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I think.

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It is basically the standing set, isn't it?

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And then a sort of fairly straightforward location shoot.

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That's right.

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And I think, um, Because it was shot last with the lodger and they

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truly had run out of money.

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This wasn't a typical Oh, we've run out of money at the end of the

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season.

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There was just no money.

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And so they shot this with the lodger.

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And yes, so this is the cheap one, but actually, I think it's the

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slightly unambitious one.

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I think the lodger does a much better job of being cheap and being

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focussed and about something than this episode does.

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Oh, I think I think this one, for me anyway, the focus on this one

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is on the relationships between the 3 characters, I think that's

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why I like it more than most things in the season because although

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some of the stories don't do much for me.

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I really like these 3 characters of the doctor, Amy and Rory, and

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so an episode that really changes them from the beginning of the

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episodes of the last of the episode.

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That's where I find the focus in this episode.

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Oh yeah, I'm totally with you.

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And I love those 3 characters as well.

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Maybe Rory is slightly less than the doctor and Amy, but I think

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they're all good.

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And I really loud what this episode is going for.

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I'm just not sure it entirely comes off, and so I'm left a little

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bit underwhelmed by it.

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Not very underwhelmed, but a little bit underwhelmed.

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Is it this season's boom town?

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It's not quite boomtown.

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You definitely get the sense that it's um, Hastily, shall we say?

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put together.

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And I think there's some wasting of a cast and some opportunities

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that aren't there, but it's good direction.

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It's tight, which this sort of thing really needs.

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The old people's home thing is done delicately and with great

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warmth, and then you get beating up an LAP, which really stuck in

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the core at the time, and it's still shocking now.

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My memory is that it was a blow to the head and I'm grateful that

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it's to the shoulder.

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But really, I'm not really grateful to see any LAP beaten up and I

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really don't think that.

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It just doesn't sit in Doctor Who.

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See, I adore it.

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I'm happy to have old people and don't forget that we do push Mrs

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Pocket off the roof.

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And let's not forget that John Pertwe got into fights all the

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time.

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Yeah, no, I really adore that.

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And I do think it is the sort of thing that little kids are

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actually likely to enjoy.

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Sure they would.

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I think it's something really creepy about the slow, deliberate

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way they move too.

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I think.

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Yeah, the great playground chasings thing.

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To me, that kind of makes it okay to push them off buildings or

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whack them with bits of wood because they're clearly not the

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friendly, cuddly old people, but, um, with their clearly something

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alien and something unpleasant.

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Yeah, this is blink on a playground budget.

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No, it really is.

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And it should probably be called Rory's story, not Amy's choice

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since we find out who Rory is, the hair, we need to talk about

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that.

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Oh my god.

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It's so great.

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There's that massive symbolic moment where Rory cuts the ponytail

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on.

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Oh, it's so Samson and Delighto.

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It's the emotional arc of the episode.

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But then Karen just says, I was starting to like it.

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Which makes me doubt her.

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But it's just undercutting him at like every available moment.

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But the hair is so disgusting.

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It actually makes me like the character a little bit less and I

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know that that is slightly the effect that they're going for, but

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it's terrible having to sit through the episode looking at that

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hair and it's not just the mullet.

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It's the dreadful top as well.

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It's artful, isn't it?

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The ponytail is terrible, but then so is Amy's fake pregnancy

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belly that she's got that she carts around unconvincingly for the

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whole episode.

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So you've got you've got both companions working with sort of

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unwieldy costume slash props throughout the whole thing.

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I'd like to see that as a nod at the same year too, um, the great

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Australian, um, Saint Nicole Kidman, who was wearing exactly the

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same thing at the, uh, at the Golden Globes and then turned up on

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the set of Australia a week later with an absolutely flat belly

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true because my friends were working on it.

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I thought you meant a mullet.

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And once she married several of those.

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Yeah, no, I thought that was, look, it really does lampoon every

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sacred cow, doesn't it?

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And I'd like to think that it's having a nod at Midsomer murders

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and all of those British.

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Yeah.

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Oh, totally is. other, you know, sacred stallards and maybe are

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not at their audiences as well.

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Very much so.

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Very much so.

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So, yeah, even though it seems, shall we say, Jejune, one 1st

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viewing for several of us sitting here doing this podcast, it, I

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get what Johnny's saying, because it's, it actually does go deeper

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and touch deeper.

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Who's the writer on this one?

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It's a lady person writer isn't it?

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No, actually, it's really interesting who it is.

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It's Simon Nye.

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So he is a reasonably big name.

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Bill knows Toy Child.

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So back then he was best known for men behaving badly.

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Which is very good.

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Yeah it's pretty good.

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Now it's he's best known for the Dorrells.

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Okay.

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Yeah, but Darrell is fun.

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I think this season seems to have a sort of embarrassment of

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writers in that it can, it can even afford to shift Neil Gaiman, of

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all people, to next season, you know, and I think that this is a

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really smart and witty episode, and I was looking online to see if

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Simon Knight kind of wished he'd come back, and he's sort of going

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no, no, I'm quite happy to have just done my wine, it was fun, and

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that's all I want to do, but, um, I could have, uh, I could have

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gone for another episode or 2 from him.

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Certainly, his dialogue is really funny.

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And, you know, the, that opening scene.

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That makes it work.

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Yeah, you know that opening scene where they're in Ledworth

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and...

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And the dog...

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Like the doctor is incredibly bored.

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And so there's that sort of wonderful line.

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What do you do to stave off the self-harm?

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And then, you know, they wake up in the TARDIS and he identifies

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it as a terrible nightmare.

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And the other 2 have just had a dream.

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Well, a man.

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Yeah, a really good man.

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Um, like all of that stuff is funny and there is funny dialogue

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all the way through.

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I love the moment where Rory decides that he doesn't like the

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Dream Lord.

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You know, like several minutes after the rest of us have all sort

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of decided that he's a villain.

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Like all of that stuff.

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I think I think lifts it.

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And it's quite nice to all the dialogue that's given to the

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Dreamlord.

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That kind of throwaway sarcasm is always very funny.

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Like when he's in the butcher's shop and he says, oh, we've got to

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use these places or else they'll close down.

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It's like, yeah, just those nice things. lines that, yeah, and he

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does it with a middle club with a sneer it out at the, at the

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dwindling middle class, which is what this is about.

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Is it politically?

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No, it doesn't have political stance, does it?

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It's just saying, this is the BBC and aren't we twee, but we love

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us anyway.

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I love the Dreamlord.

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I love Toby Jones.

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Love Toby Jones.

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Yeah.

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He's just amazing.

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And I think the the, the real genius of it is the, is the

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wheedling away at the doctor.

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I don't think we've ever seen anyone do this to say, look, you

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know, to be sort of, um, being narky to him all the time, sort of

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pointing out, pointing out his his tawdry quirks and so on and

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saying, you know, just undermining his confidence all the time.

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It's just, it's, it's really sort of wicked and, and it's, um, it

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it makes it feel like, you know, the theme of this story that the

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doctor has this uh, underlying self-doubt and self-loathing.

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This is, uh, this is for me is something new.

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I don't think we see it anywhere else.

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And it could have developed something else.

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You know, you could see this being a story arc of some sort where

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the doctor's lack of confidence in his own abilities actually

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becomes a problem later on.

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So I think for me, it's a combination of a really nifty idea and a

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great performance that that lifts the whole thing.

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I've said before that Moffat's doctors are Moffat, and they both

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were like all 3 of them, I guess, um, have some degree of self

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loathing.

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Like, I think it's actually a super interesting insight at this

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point.

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Like, now I can't have seen Matt Smith in action, and he can't

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really have known where things were going to go.

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But all the way back from joking apart, Moffatt has had this

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feeling that he's a bit of a bad person and and so his doctors are

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a little bit like that.

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And so in the 11th hour, he lies to Amy about why he's bringing

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her on board.

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You know, he sort of flatters her by saying, oh, you know, I'm

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lonely, or confirming her guess that that's the reason, but really

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he's brought her on board because of the crack.

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And then all of next season.

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He lies about her pregnancy or conceals it from her or whatever.

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And he is kind of a bad person.

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And so this does seem to be crystallising that theme really sort

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of surprisingly early.

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And although they don't run with it explicitly, we never see the

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Dream Lord again or anything like him.

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I think it does reflect something that's eventually a feature of

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the doctor in the Moffat era.

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It's a new broom as well.

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You can't imagine the story being told with David Tennant's I'm

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clever, doctor, doing the same thing.

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You need a doctor who's got that kind of introspection and those

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foibles to kind of chip away at.

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I can almost see it with Charlton, but it ends, it sets up an

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interesting polemic with Jamie and so yeah, Charlton.

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And we all know it was Trout.

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There has to be a vulnerability in the doctor for this story to

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work.

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And because the Dream Lord's so nasty about a whole lot of things

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like the way the doctor dresses, the way he looks, the way he

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surrounds himself with young girls, you know, all of these things

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which are, um...

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Very Davison.

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Their point, their points of...

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00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.379
Did I say not just in the series?

249
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:41.159
I didn't say that.

250
00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:43.139
Oh.

251
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.080
But it would have worked with Davison as well, wouldn't it

252
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:46.379
Johnny?

253
00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.620
I mean, there's a few, you need a soft doctor for this to it.

254
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.500
And look, I don't know what you guys have been talking about in

255
00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:56.759
the earlier episodes, of course, but I think that for me, Matt

256
00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.299
Smith's doctor took a little while to land because he was kind of

257
00:13:00.299 --> 00:13:04.320
in Tenant's shadow a bit because we was coming from one young

258
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:08.100
dashing handsome doctor to another, and so I feel that in his 1st

259
00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:11.759
couple of episodes, he's trying to find what differentiates him

260
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:12.419
from Tenet.

261
00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:17.100
And it's around these episodes like Amy's Choice and Vincent and

262
00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:20.519
the Lodger, where you start to see that this is a very different

263
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:21.000
doctor.

264
00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:24.480
You know, he's he's goofier, he's more guileless, he's more of an

265
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.679
innocent, he's more childlike, and and I think Matt Smith is less

266
00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.700
afraid to make himself look a bit foolish on screen, if you know

267
00:13:32.700 --> 00:13:33.179
what I mean.

268
00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:36.299
Like, I'm thinking of that, where he's running away from the old

269
00:13:36.299 --> 00:13:39.659
people and he's going to hide himself in the, in the butcher's

270
00:13:39.659 --> 00:13:40.440
safe.

271
00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:45.240
He's not afraid to to kind of fall about and look, do his kind of

272
00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:50.100
gawky, awkward movement kind of thing. has a physicality that's

273
00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:51.360
really been missing from the doctor, I think.

274
00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:52.559
Yeah, I agree.

275
00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:52.860
Yeah.

276
00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:55.200
So for me, this is where I start to.

277
00:13:55.259 --> 00:13:59.220
I start to like this doctor a little bit more around these mid and

278
00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:00.419
late episodes of this season.

279
00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:05.759
You see, we pretty much thought that he landed straight away and

280
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.539
we were absolutely relieved by the difference between him and

281
00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:14.820
Tennant and and I guess in this episode, I thought the most

282
00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:19.440
striking new thing that he does is his reaction to the Dreamlord

283
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:23.340
when the Dreamlord 1st turns up because, you know, when Tennant

284
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.399
does anger, it's all teeth and kind of flecks of spittle and

285
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:26.700
things.

286
00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:35.580
And and Matt sets his face in a really, really, um, like in a

287
00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:36.059
different way.

288
00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:39.659
He's been angry before and he's been low key angry before, but

289
00:14:39.659 --> 00:14:44.039
there's a real level of contempt in the way that just he sets his

290
00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:44.580
jaw.

291
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.179
He barely moves his mouth as he speaks to the dreamlord.

292
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.980
And that's the thing that strikes me about Matt, is his ability to

293
00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:54.240
do anger.

294
00:14:54.360 --> 00:15:00.659
Uh, and to be threatening, without kind of going over the top

295
00:15:00.659 --> 00:15:03.299
without shouting, by by underplaying it.

296
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.379
And, you know, that thing about the doctor has some line about

297
00:15:07.379 --> 00:15:10.500
where did you pick up this ridiculous cabaret or something like

298
00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:10.740
that.

299
00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.700
And I think he's really properly threatening and he's not going to

300
00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:16.799
tolerate any of the Dreamlord's crap.

301
00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:21.840
And so the goofiness and that weird, awkward physicality and

302
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:22.139
stuff.

303
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:27.600
Uh, you know, like a strange contrast to, to some real steel.

304
00:15:27.659 --> 00:15:28.559
Do you know what I mean?

305
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:33.659
And some real proper menace, uh, that Matt is capable of that I

306
00:15:33.659 --> 00:15:35.639
don't think Tennant ever really attempted.

307
00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:38.940
I think tenant, tenants doctor so wants to be likeable.

308
00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:43.500
Whereas Matt, I don't know, I don't know about Matt.

309
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:45.899
Matt's a bit like Tom and I think he can be angry in different

310
00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:46.320
ways.

311
00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:47.340
Yeah.

312
00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:48.840
Yeah. certainly.

313
00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:51.899
I mean, he doesn't do a big shout in this episode and when he does

314
00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:54.480
we talked about it in the beast below when he sort of suddenly

315
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.000
shouts at Amy and it's absolutely terrifying.

316
00:15:57.059 --> 00:16:02.580
Um, but he can do anger in a really low key.

317
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.320
It's early time, isn't it?

318
00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:08.220
It's like Tom in Horror of Fang Rock or Tom in season 12.

319
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.360
That's right.

320
00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:10.799
Tom has that steely anger.

321
00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:13.320
He can also when he yells, like he does in the pirate planet.

322
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.559
It's properly shocking, like when Matt does, but he can also turn

323
00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.200
anger into comedy, which Matt does as well.

324
00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:23.580
Yeah, and I think if Matt Smith does seem to be better at making

325
00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:26.759
the leap between those dark moments in those funny moments.

326
00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:30.059
He seems to be able to turn on a pin a little bit better than

327
00:16:30.059 --> 00:16:30.899
tenant perhaps.

328
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:37.620
I think that Tenet is for 10 of the comedy is a mask and and a

329
00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:41.879
role that the doctor's playing, and sometimes that drops away, and

330
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.899
you can actually visibly see him making it look like it's dropping

331
00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:46.259
away.

332
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:47.279
Do you know what I mean?

333
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:50.460
Whereas Matt doesn't seem to have that guile.

334
00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:52.860
Like, I think what you see is what you get with Matt.

335
00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.000
He's not playing a role.

336
00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:55.139
Yeah.

337
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:58.080
And Peter, I was interested when you said that, you know, you

338
00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:01.799
think that Rory's the, the, the one of these characters, which you

339
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:05.700
think is the, is the one you don't respond to the most, for me, I

340
00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:09.839
think that actually the, the team isn't really complete until the

341
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:10.799
3 of them are there.

342
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:12.900
And I much prefer the combination of the doctor.

343
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:16.980
Dr. Amy and Rory to just the doctor and Amy, because actually, I

344
00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:20.759
think the 2 of them bring out something different in Matt's

345
00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.119
performance because it allows him to take a step back to be a step

346
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:29.579
more aloof from, from, um, from these pair of human companions and

347
00:17:29.579 --> 00:17:34.380
he has a male companion and a female companion to interact with in

348
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:34.859
different ways.

349
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.819
And that's what for me is one of the shifts in his character.

350
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:44.400
Throughout this story, is we start off with a competition between

351
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.599
the doctor and Rory for Amy's affection, and in the end, the

352
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.720
doctor loses, which is a really uncommon thing to happen in a

353
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:52.380
doctor episode.

354
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.359
But in that competition.

355
00:17:54.420 --> 00:17:59.160
Um, the doctor loses and and Amy realises her affection for Rory.

356
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:01.440
Rory realises the power of that too.

357
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:07.680
And the doctor is happy to lose because he finds a way to interact

358
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.859
with his companions, which is much more, uh, which he's much more

359
00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:11.700
comfortable in, I think.

360
00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:15.599
Well, I mean, wasn't it his intention last week and the week

361
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.480
before to actually fix their relationship?

362
00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:24.180
So at the end of flesh and stone, where Amy comes onto him and he

363
00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:28.019
sort of grabs her and drags her back into the Tartar and then

364
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:32.640
picks Rory up at his buck's night and takes them to Venice

365
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:36.359
precisely in order to kind of fix the relationship up.

366
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:39.900
And it doesn't quite take.

367
00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.259
I mean, they're in quite a good place at the end of vampires of

368
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:46.500
Venice, and Rory's had the chance to kind of critique the doctor a

369
00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:46.740
bit.

370
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:50.519
But here is where it actually gets solved.

371
00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:54.240
And I think from here on in, whenever Amy is given the choice

372
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:58.980
between the doctor and Rory, she will always pick Rory, just

373
00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:00.539
absolutely reliably.

374
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:02.819
She was never not going to.

375
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:07.680
She just wanted her summer holiday with Ernest Stubbs and Cliff

376
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.319
Richard on the top of the red double decker bus.

377
00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:12.359
It's perfectly understandable.

378
00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:16.440
This was just one long hen's night with her raggedy stuffed toy

379
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:16.740
boy.

380
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:22.440
But I think there was a point at which she could have decided not

381
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.259
to go back.

382
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:30.119
And I do think that when Rory dies and the doctor travels with

383
00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:31.079
Amy...

384
00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:31.559
Spoilers.

385
00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:32.819
Yeah, spoilers, sorry.

386
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:34.619
Doesn't that happen in this episode as well?

387
00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:35.579
Not really.

388
00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:36.299
Spoilers.

389
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:42.059
Um, that in a way that's almost her making the decision not to go

390
00:19:42.059 --> 00:19:42.359
back.

391
00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:45.539
At one point, she can't even remember that there was going to be a

392
00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:46.019
wedding.

393
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.900
That 2nd half of the series, you know, she doesn't know that

394
00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:49.980
there's going to be a wedding.

395
00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.920
She will say to Vincent, she's not the marrying kind.

396
00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:57.119
There comes a point in this season where the decision.

397
00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:58.799
And even here, do you know what I mean?

398
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:00.900
She says, why would anyone leave the Tartars?

399
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:05.579
Why, why would we ever choose to go back and live in upper lead

400
00:20:05.579 --> 00:20:06.299
worth like that?

401
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:09.720
Amy's convinced that this is real because she would never make the

402
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:12.839
series of decisions that leads her to Upper Leadworth.

403
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.839
And so I think that it's up in the air.

404
00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:17.579
And that's what this whole season is about.

405
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:22.980
Um, and I think that this episode prefigures the final decision

406
00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:26.519
which is a clever moffety resolution.

407
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.819
I don't actually disagree with any of that.

408
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:35.460
I agree with you, Johnny, that the dynamic works well, and I think

409
00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:37.200
that the 3 characters together work well.

410
00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:41.279
The jury for me is slightly out on the success of Rory as a

411
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:41.759
character.

412
00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:44.579
I'm not sure how well defined he is.

413
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.900
Um, I do like what happens in this episode and the beat that it

414
00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:52.440
hits with um, Amy and Rory and the focus on them.

415
00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.140
But I think it slightly misses the mark.

416
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.420
I think there might have been a cleverer or subtler way of telling

417
00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:01.680
that character beat.

418
00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:06.180
Does Amy really have to prove that she die for Rory to make the

419
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:08.700
and move their relationship onto firmer ground?

420
00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.640
I think that feels a little bit overwrought in the storytelling.

421
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:15.900
Perhaps you're right, because it does lead to that moment where

422
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:20.220
Amy decides to commit suicide in one of the world and take the

423
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:20.940
doctor with her.

424
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:25.079
And, well, it's all it's all makes sense within the fiction of the

425
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:25.380
story.

426
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.420
It is an odd thing to see in Doctor Who.

427
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:28.859
Yeah.

428
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:30.779
Yeah, and I don't hate it at all.

429
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:32.099
I don't think it's terrible.

430
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.680
I just, it slightly misses the mark for me.

431
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.759
I think it's unsubtle.

432
00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:39.539
And I think if Stephen Moffatt had been writing this episode and

433
00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:43.920
we all know he gave it a good old redraft, I think maybe it might

434
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:45.660
have made it in a cleverer way.

435
00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:46.319
Yeah.

436
00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:52.619
I compare the Dr. and Amy and Rory's love triangle to the Dr. Rose

437
00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:53.579
and Mickey.

438
00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.279
And it's really, they're completely different in the sense that

439
00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.339
there was never any doubt that Rose was going to choose the doctor

440
00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:03.119
right, from the very, from the very 1st episode, and from then on

441
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.880
Mickey is kind of playing catch up all the time.

442
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.720
I think it's interesting that the series then decides to say

443
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:13.440
there's something valuable in just being human.

444
00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:17.819
And I think that Rory's great active love for Amy is travelling in

445
00:22:17.819 --> 00:22:18.420
TARDIS.

446
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.059
Like, he would not, he'd always strikes me, but he wouldn't

447
00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:24.539
necessarily choose to do that, except that he knows that that's

448
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:26.700
what makes um, Amy happy.

449
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:29.339
And so he's, he's gone along for the ride.

450
00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:31.859
And that Amy finds something.

451
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.299
Find something in that basic humanity, which is a little bit more

452
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:38.759
than the doctor can offer.

453
00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:41.460
Johnny, that's exactly it, actually.

454
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:46.200
I think, um, it's the fact that Rory makes concessions for Amy, um

455
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:48.539
and that is his sacrifice and that's because he loves her.

456
00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.119
And I think what I would have preferred to have seen was rather

457
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.559
than some big act or big revelation or epiphany for Amy.

458
00:22:55.619 --> 00:22:58.980
I just wanted to see her decide to make concessions for him.

459
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:00.839
Yes, that's all it's printed on.

460
00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:02.519
That's all it would have taken.

461
00:23:02.579 --> 00:23:04.980
We need the arrogance to chip down a bit.

462
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:06.900
It's not even defensibility on her part.

463
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.500
It's just knowing that she's the alpha in the chicken coop.

464
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:11.400
Yeah.

465
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:14.400
And there's a lot of squawking and feather ruffling in this

466
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:14.640
episode.

467
00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:17.819
And Johnny, that was a really good comparison, actually, with Rose

468
00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:20.880
and Mickey and the doctor, which hadn't, I hadn't actually thought

469
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:21.720
about very much.

470
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.039
No, because they're dead to me too.

471
00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:26.700
It's all a tea.

472
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:31.200
I think Boomtown is very instructive here because Boomtown does

473
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:38.039
such a great job of tackling and moving Rose and Mickey's

474
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:39.420
relationship to a different level.

475
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.859
And it does it breaking your heart with small, with little things

476
00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:44.700
that happen.

477
00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:46.259
Like, brilliant writing.

478
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:47.279
Oh, good.

479
00:23:47.339 --> 00:23:52.380
And it works for the characters because it reinforces what roses

480
00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:53.640
which is using Mickey.

481
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.460
You know, he's there when she wants to go to a hotel for an hour

482
00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:57.599
and then she'll up and leave him.

483
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.960
Whereas Mickey is utterly devoted to her and realises in that

484
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.740
episode that she will never feel the same way about him and so he

485
00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:05.279
has to move on.

486
00:24:05.339 --> 00:24:10.259
Um, Yeah, I feel like I'm bagging Amy's choice a little bit and I

487
00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:11.759
am, but it's only a little bit.

488
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:15.119
I feel like I would have liked more of that kind of boom town

489
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:16.079
ethos to it.

490
00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:26.460
I like that there's an inherent tension between them that never

491
00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:27.240
really goes away.

492
00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:30.660
Sometimes there's a general thought about Doctor Who, but everyone

493
00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:33.180
who is on the TARDIS crew has to get on and they have to be

494
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:35.220
soulmates and they have to love each other and they have to great

495
00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:35.819
time all the time.

496
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:37.319
Like Tegan and Adrick.

497
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.519
Like Tegan and Annie Bob.

498
00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:43.259
Taking a chameleon.

499
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:48.000
And while I'm not necessarily in bickering with roundels, but I

500
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:52.740
think that there's room for differences in how the characters see

501
00:24:52.740 --> 00:24:55.200
the situations and I think that's interesting.

502
00:24:55.259 --> 00:25:00.480
And if I can scoot a forward a few episodes to the impossible

503
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:04.559
astronaut to just pull in something that Nathan was saying about

504
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.099
Matt Smith's ability to to kind of to be angry.

505
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:12.420
It's just a terrific beat in that episode when they're in the

506
00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:16.200
Tartar, and the doctor that knows that his companions are keeping

507
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:17.039
something from him.

508
00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:21.119
And he just says to Amy, why has somebody put you up to this?

509
00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:26.880
And he shoots a just a look of pure venom at Rory at that point.

510
00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:27.839
Right.

511
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:31.140
And it's, to me, it's always chilling that just that that little

512
00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:35.460
moment he chooses to play that line by just reminding us that he's

513
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:39.059
never, he's never as comfortable with Rory as he is with Amy.

514
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:41.640
That's right, they never love each other, do they?

515
00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:42.539
The doctor and Rory?

516
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:46.019
Not in the, yeah, certainly not within that unconditional way, but

517
00:25:46.019 --> 00:25:47.099
Amy and the doctor do.

518
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:51.119
And it's Amy that appears to the doctor when he regenerates, not

519
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:51.660
Rory.

520
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.720
Not even Amy and Rory and River, just Amy.

521
00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:58.680
It's there's 2 points there. that tension between the 3 of them is

522
00:25:58.680 --> 00:25:59.339
interesting.

523
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.420
It's what it, what makes this, this trio of characters work.

524
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.539
And also just, just echoing what Nathan's saying is that

525
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:10.079
occasionally Matt Smith can really just shock you if how serious

526
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:11.759
and how grim he can, he can be.

527
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:28.500
I actually think again, the choices between childhood and

528
00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:29.819
adulthood.

529
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:34.680
And so, you have Amy running off with her imaginary childhood

530
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:37.619
friend on the night before her wedding in order to avoid her

531
00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:37.980
wedding.

532
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:44.339
And here, she has the choice between hanging around with him in

533
00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:49.440
the magic box, you know, in this sort of fantasy land, and actual

534
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:51.839
adulthood, and motherhood, right?

535
00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:58.019
Pregnancy, being married, and for her, the choice is still

536
00:26:58.019 --> 00:26:58.740
childhood.

537
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:04.140
But I think that what's interesting and the reason that Rory has

538
00:27:04.140 --> 00:27:09.059
to die in Ledworth is to change what that choice means.

539
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:12.839
So originally, there's a big conversation between Amy and Rory in

540
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:17.160
the TARDIS, about the relative merits of travelling in the TARDIS

541
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.400
and Ledworth, and she's very clear that she wants to travel in the

542
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.539
TARDIS, and Rory is a bit kind of miffed by that because he

543
00:27:24.539 --> 00:27:27.720
recognises rightly that it's a rejection of him.

544
00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:32.460
You know, she excitedly says it can continue to be the night

545
00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:35.640
before our wedding for as long as we like, isn't that great.

546
00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:38.220
And he's, you know.

547
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:44.160
And so when Rory dies in Ledworth, her choice to go back on the

548
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:48.299
Tartars is no longer a choice to avoid Rory.

549
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.380
It's the choice to have Rory in her life because she loves him.

550
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.980
And so the whole valency of that choice changes with his death.

551
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:57.599
And I think that that's why it's there.

552
00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:00.779
I agree with you, Peter that it is all a little bit overwrought.

553
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:05.640
Although Karen underplays it so wonderful. good in this episode.

554
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:09.720
Remember when she says to the doctor, well, what's the point of

555
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:10.019
view then?

556
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:12.359
That's got to be a moth that line?

557
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:13.799
That feels so mothy.

558
00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:15.839
It's so good though, isn't it?

559
00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:19.440
You know, like, you're not Rory, I don't love you.

560
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:23.759
If you can't get me out of this scrape, if you can't save Ferri's

561
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:25.680
life, then why are you even here?

562
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:30.900
I find that an appalling line and one that really reveals the self

563
00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:34.079
centredness of, I won't say millennials because hello, listener.

564
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:39.420
But it really just shows me that even though Moffatt, Stephen

565
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:40.559
Moffatt writes.

566
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:46.259
Uh, we've talked about his female paradigms before, but he still

567
00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:49.920
understands his own foibles and it's interesting, isn't it?

568
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:51.779
He is a man who sees his own shadows.

569
00:28:51.779 --> 00:28:54.240
So he still writes her.

570
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:57.900
Yeah, I guess in a way that Russell had always set up Rose, that

571
00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:02.279
the flaws are very clear, the cracks are very open and well lit.

572
00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:05.579
And I think it just shows us what a flawed person, Amy, really is

573
00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:09.480
to expect the doctor to still be a Freudian or Jungian child

574
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:12.240
archetype when he's also just another person.

575
00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:14.940
Okay, he's a very big person, but trying to do his best.

576
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.299
Yeah, but I think Moffatt doesn't write Doctor Who liked that as

577
00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:21.420
if they're sort of real people who need kind of...

578
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.359
Yeah, I think that the doctor plays a story role.

579
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:29.460
It's almost like, like she's, she's rejecting him as a sort of

580
00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:34.140
potential sort of mate or match or hero or something like that and

581
00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:37.740
is putting him in the role of the sort of daffy madman in a box

582
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:41.279
that Hartnell is, you know, Hartnell's not the main character when

583
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:42.599
Doctor Who 1st starts.

584
00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:47.160
He's just the crazy old man who gets Ian and Barbara into various

585
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.259
scrapes and they're the main character.

586
00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:51.900
And it's kind of like this rejection of the idea.

587
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:54.000
You know, it's this thing.

588
00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:58.980
Why would I want you when I have Rory, you know, you are not my

589
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:01.380
lover, you are not the person I care about.

590
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.099
It really, really is, like, it's dark, and, you know, it comes

591
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:08.880
from a sort of inner scene, which is about grief, I guess.

592
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:15.480
But it is such a such a superbly blunt rejection of the idea that

593
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.539
running away with a doctor is the right thing to do.

594
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:24.839
But I think I think that that rejection doesn't take.

595
00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:31.920
And the great thing about Amy's choice is that the end of it when

596
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.740
the doctor blows up the TARDIS.

597
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:38.099
He blows up what they've decided is the real world because that's

598
00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:39.420
not real either.

599
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:45.480
And what we have at the end is that Amy can be an adult and can

600
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:50.160
have a relationship with Rory without rejecting those elements of

601
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:54.420
her childhood that made her what she is and that were so important

602
00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:55.859
to her as a child.

603
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:59.099
And she'll replay this in the Big Bang.

604
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.599
She gets married, but then she says no, this isn't acceptable.

605
00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:05.160
The doctor should be here.

606
00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:09.299
I'm not going to reject the doctor completely in order to be an

607
00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:09.900
adult.

608
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:14.460
And she brings the doctor back into existence in the same way that

609
00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:17.880
Russell brought the doctor back into existence in 2005.

610
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:25.559
This story has them making a 3rd choice that she doesn't have to

611
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:26.519
choose Ledworth.

612
00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:28.380
She doesn't have to just choose the doctor.

613
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:34.140
She gets to have the doctor and Rory in their rightful place, I

614
00:31:34.140 --> 00:31:34.380
think.

615
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:38.640
That is undeniably a good beat for Amy, I think, and sort of makes

616
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:39.779
her character more whole.

617
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:44.279
Unfortunately, it also reveals the problem with Rory in that Rory

618
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:48.119
runs against the ethos of the series in that the thing that the

619
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.359
companion should want to do is go off and have adventures with the

620
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.339
doctor, that should be the ultimate thing.

621
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:55.920
They never want to leave the doctor's side, they want the universe

622
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:58.440
opened up for them, and Rory rails against that.

623
00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:02.700
Rory just wants to live a quiet life and he wants to drag Amy back

624
00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:03.900
down into that.

625
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:08.519
Now, I don't necessarily think that that's a terrible thing on

626
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:11.940
Rory's behalf, and I'm not sure that it's the right thing that Amy

627
00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:16.619
doesn't want that, but it limits Rory as a character a little bit

628
00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:19.799
and makes me feel like I'm not on his side.

629
00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:23.700
It doesn't play out like that though, in the end, does it?

630
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:29.099
And by kind of midway through series 7, Rory and Amy are running

631
00:32:29.099 --> 00:32:31.740
off with the doctor to have jolly adventures and then going back

632
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:32.940
to their real lives and stuff.

633
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:34.140
Like, I think he's into it.

634
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.740
Yeah, I like that much more as Rory goes along and as he becomes

635
00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:42.660
more sort of acclimatised to the doctor and sort of fulfils the

636
00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:46.140
Harry Sullivan role, I warm up to him much more.

637
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:49.380
I do think it's a problem with this season and his character.

638
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.799
And as I said before, not a huge problem, but it niggles away at

639
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:53.339
me slightly.

640
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:55.380
Where do you reckon it's resolved?

641
00:32:55.440 --> 00:33:02.519
I think when he comes back next season and basically chooses to go

642
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:06.660
along with the doctor and the team in the Impossible Astronaut, it

643
00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:07.500
starts to get better.

644
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:11.759
So once you've sort of fulfilled this arc with Amy and him playing

645
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:15.599
that specific role, once he's out of that, it works more as

646
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:15.960
character.

647
00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:18.000
Yeah, I'd say that a Christmas carol.

648
00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:18.779
Yeah.

649
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:19.259
Yeah.

650
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:23.519
Um, I think it's interesting you describe it as a, as, you know, as

651
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:27.420
the climax of the story being the characters making a 3rd choice

652
00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:32.519
instead of the kind of binary that they're presented with, but I

653
00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:35.279
wondered if it doesn't actually work in the other way, but it kind

654
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.900
of negates the journey the characters have been on, you know

655
00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:43.980
because Amy makes her choice between these 2 worlds, but actually

656
00:33:43.980 --> 00:33:45.720
neither of them were real anyway.

657
00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:46.920
So what does it matter?

658
00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:48.180
And this is a problem.

659
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:49.319
This is a problem.

660
00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:55.559
I think with story set in kind of dream worlds or cyberspace or

661
00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:58.859
whatever it is that you always get the feeling that it was fairly

662
00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:00.059
inconsequential at the end.

663
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.859
For me, for me, the fact that Amy's choice kind of persists into

664
00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:08.940
the real world after we've blown up the 2 makes it a bit more

665
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:11.820
satisfying, but it was just interesting when you described it as a

666
00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:15.000
3rd choice, and I was starting to think, is it actually the lack

667
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:16.440
of a choice between those 2?

668
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:18.480
I guess so.

669
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:21.360
It's just that it's the way the characters change. you know what I

670
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:21.539
mean?

671
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.719
Like that, even though it hasn't been real, whatever that means

672
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:28.320
because it's Doctor Who and it's a TV program and it's never real

673
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:28.920
anyway.

674
00:34:28.980 --> 00:34:31.980
Um, but it's, it's not real.

675
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:36.539
But they've changed and Rory and Amy do something they've never

676
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:37.500
done before.

677
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:43.019
We've always seen Amy hesitant and slightly embarrassed by Rory

678
00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:46.679
like right back from the 11th hour and kind of unwilling to show

679
00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:47.940
affection to him.

680
00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:52.559
And I remember there's that conversation about who's a gooseberry

681
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:57.659
like I think the, the dreamlord calls Rory a gooseberry, and that

682
00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:02.639
final scene is Rory and Amy staring into each other's eyes and the

683
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.000
doctor trying to say something to attract their attention or

684
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.760
decide whether he needs to be there at all, and he is absolutely

685
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:10.320
the gooseberry in that scene.

686
00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:15.360
So the dynamic between the characters has changed fundamentally

687
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.860
because these 2 choices have been presented to Amy and she's made

688
00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:20.820
the choice that she has.

689
00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:27.420
Um, And, you know, like I said, it doesn't take until really the

690
00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:28.380
final episode.

691
00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:34.679
But I do think that this in microcosm is the kind of, Kind of the

692
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:35.940
R of the season.

693
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.800
The arc isn't the crack.

694
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:43.199
The arc is Amy deciding whether to go for adulthood or childhood

695
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:45.599
and eventually deciding, well, I'm having both.

696
00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:48.300
And I love that arc.

697
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:49.500
Like, I just love what it means.

698
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:54.179
I think there's also, on a completely different view of what the

699
00:35:54.179 --> 00:35:55.980
choice is that's happening in this episode.

700
00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:59.579
We're also being asked to choose between 2 different types of

701
00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:03.239
Doctor Who, I think, because, you know, on one hand, there's the

702
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:06.599
slightly wacky Douglas Adams type, there's aliens living in old

703
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.480
people in a sleepy country town kind of Doctor Who's...

704
00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:11.880
And on the other hand, there's the Christopher H.

705
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:12.780
Bidmead, kind of.

706
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:15.900
We're all trapped in the TARDIS, and there's a scientific bro, and

707
00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:17.940
you know, we've got to try and work that out kind of thing.

708
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.139
And I don't think...

709
00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:20.820
You're saying we're being asked to choose between inside the

710
00:36:20.820 --> 00:36:22.199
spaceship and the keys of marathon?

711
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.780
That's right That's right.

712
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.659
Now, there's a, there's a, there's a point, girls.

713
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:31.559
That's, um, I don't think anyone was intending that, but that's

714
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:33.960
the kind of effect it has watching it.

715
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.500
And I think one of the things the episode does well is it keeps

716
00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:38.460
each scene.

717
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:43.619
In each of the 2 worlds relatively short and punchy.

718
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:47.639
So we don't get too used to either of the 2 worlds before we're

719
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:48.840
sna back to the other one.

720
00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:54.059
There's always a slight unease about when that bird song is going

721
00:36:54.059 --> 00:36:56.579
to be heard and when that transition is going to take place.

722
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:00.239
It's funny, I originally didn't like this episode very much

723
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.599
because I thought that that cold sum thing was just a bit too star

724
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:06.900
trekky, like a little bit too kind of crummy.

725
00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:12.659
And I think the reveal that the doctor knew all along that a cold

726
00:37:12.659 --> 00:37:16.980
sun was an impossibility, which is what he says at the end, and

727
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:18.840
maybe he's lying, rule one.

728
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:22.260
For no good reason other than to extend the narrative in the

729
00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:24.300
moment, which is very tricky in itself.

730
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:28.800
And I think it's a cheap threat in that it's on the screen. you

731
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:29.039
know.

732
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:31.079
I don't know.

733
00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:34.800
I thought the, the, the, the crystal myth effect was very Sydney

734
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:36.119
or very Western Australia.

735
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:37.199
It was...

736
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:38.820
Sprinkled all over the Tartars, you know.

737
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.539
It looks great.

738
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:43.199
It must have been when we were saying it's cheap, I thought

739
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:46.139
actually, cleaning that stuff up is nothing cheap about that.

740
00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:48.719
And it is one of the most striking images of the season.

741
00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:50.280
It is.

742
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:51.719
You know, we're not we're not a huge fan.

743
00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:54.480
I don't think of that console room, but when you turn off those

744
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:56.340
orange lights, doesn't it instantly look better?

745
00:37:56.460 --> 00:37:58.920
I've grown up to it now.

746
00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:02.820
I can see it's his homage to Cushing and his happiness with those

747
00:38:02.820 --> 00:38:04.199
colour dalek films.

748
00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:06.599
And the box is trying to do that as well.

749
00:38:06.659 --> 00:38:08.940
We haven't talked about the police box, but why didn't we just get

750
00:38:08.940 --> 00:38:09.719
a cushing box?

751
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:11.340
Come on, it's just so much better.

752
00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:13.320
It's pretty close though, isn't it?

753
00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:14.579
No, no, not to me.

754
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.500
The proportions are all wrong in those windows.

755
00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:20.699
This is the thing about this episode, I think.

756
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:24.480
It's slightly, it's slightly successful in my mind, but it's also

757
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:25.440
slightly muddled.

758
00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:29.159
And I think it might be because we don't have a natural Doctor Who

759
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:32.099
writer or a natural sci-fi rice behind it.

760
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:35.340
And so the things that it goes for are not the things you would

761
00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:37.199
expect that it would go for.

762
00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:42.059
And so it ends up being some weird technobabble explanation for

763
00:38:42.059 --> 00:38:45.840
why the dream lord existed in that, which is fine on its own terms

764
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.900
but I don't think a more natural doctor writer might have gone in

765
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:49.800
that direction for it.

766
00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:55.440
But also because, um, like 3 in 3 episodes time, Richard Curtis is

767
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:56.940
an outsider to Doctor Who as well.

768
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.780
And he chooses a completely different spin on the program and

769
00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:03.360
tackles subject matter that you wouldn't normally within the

770
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:03.840
program.

771
00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:07.380
That's part of why this episode works and why it doesn't.

772
00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:14.280
The technobabbly ending is disappointing and it is unsatisfying

773
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.679
after everything that's gone for it.

774
00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:20.460
But for me, it's saved slightly by the little reflection of the

775
00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:24.119
rewards face and the console because it makes you remember the

776
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:27.179
doctor's self-doubt and self-loathing hasn't gone away, but it

777
00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:28.320
still exists under the surface.

778
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:32.760
Compare it to roughly the same ending at the end of the trial of a

779
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:39.300
time ward. very strange things to to juxtapose here, except that

780
00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:43.679
the one in Amy's choice works far, far better because it's a, it's

781
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.420
a reminder of the themes of the episode.

782
00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:49.260
Uh, rather than just a, well, I don't know what it is that happens

783
00:39:49.260 --> 00:39:50.400
at the end of the trial.

784
00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:53.099
I should go down that dark path.

785
00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:56.699
It's interesting what Richard said earlier about it would have to

786
00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:59.699
be one of the one of the nicer doctors like Davidson.

787
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:02.039
I think a story like this would have worked very well with Colin

788
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:06.480
Baker's doctor because Colin Baker's doctor is all front and all

789
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.739
bluster and to have sort of had an opposite to him, which kind of

790
00:40:10.739 --> 00:40:15.119
niggled away at him and exposed his failings would have been

791
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:17.519
really interesting. played by Patrick Trouton.

792
00:40:18.179 --> 00:40:20.940
Love to have seen how that would have played out.

793
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.639
It could only have been played by Brian Blessard.

794
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:33.900
And the Dream Lord is great, isn't he?

795
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:37.679
It's a really great performance and Toby Jones is it's one of

796
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:41.340
those spunk castings that's actually too good for the show.

797
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:43.500
We've got Bill Nai in this season.

798
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.940
We have we have some other blessed laurels that descend upon our

799
00:40:47.940 --> 00:40:48.780
heads, don't we?

800
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:52.019
So I'm trying to think who else is quite wonderful in this season

801
00:40:52.019 --> 00:40:53.219
Johnny, who else stands out?

802
00:40:53.219 --> 00:40:55.739
In tiny guest pub.

803
00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:59.579
Oh, I wasn't on the...

804
00:40:59.579 --> 00:41:01.500
I think the highest is Helen McCrory.

805
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:04.559
And if you've ever seen her on stage or even in film.

806
00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:06.780
I mean, I know she's Penny Dreadfuls, but if you actually see her

807
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:09.179
do Shakespeare or Raticon or just anything.

808
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.920
She's extraordinary.

809
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:12.300
She's dying a rig level.

810
00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:14.940
You're going to love last week's episode, Richard.

811
00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:18.659
Yeah, I said, I wasn't gone, vampires of Venice, because it's

812
00:41:18.659 --> 00:41:21.480
definitely one of my favourites, simply because of how it plays

813
00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:23.579
Posh Mummy's son.

814
00:41:23.579 --> 00:41:29.460
And that really does feel like Thatcher and Mark. really what that

815
00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:29.880
one's about.

816
00:41:29.940 --> 00:41:35.760
The combination of Matt Smith with a acclaimed older generation

817
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:37.739
actor never fails.

818
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:42.719
And I think for me, the best of it is him and Michael Gambin in a

819
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:46.800
Christmas carol, but it works every time that they bring...

820
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.400
Some of us are feeling a bit sensitive, Johnny, because Toby is

821
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.619
actually younger than several of us.

822
00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:55.800
I didn't check that myself before.

823
00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:01.139
Well, you know he's Freddie Jones's son and the wonderful effusive

824
00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:02.400
Freddie Jones, who was in everything.

825
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:05.159
He stands out in his role in June, of course, but he's in a lot of

826
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:06.659
other things as well, isn't he?

827
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:10.320
I'll just say that Toby Jones never lets a line get away.

828
00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:13.320
You know, he speaks every word in it.

829
00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:18.420
He, he, he reads his line readings are all perfectly calibrated.

830
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.460
Yeah, he's very theatre.

831
00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:24.059
And that's the sort of skill you get from somebody who's been

832
00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:25.260
working for a really long time.

833
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:30.780
Toby Jones grew up literally in the dust of the from the sides

834
00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:34.619
watching his dad from really early age, at least for what, just

835
00:42:34.619 --> 00:42:38.519
watching performances and that he gets intonation.

836
00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:41.099
He gets the structure of language and plays with it.

837
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:42.420
Have you seen him in dad's army?

838
00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:46.559
Do you know, I can't believe we've got this far without mentioning

839
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:48.420
Dobby the house elf, to be honest.

840
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.280
Oh, yeah.

841
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:55.380
Oh, the makeup's great. didn't spot it thought he was played by

842
00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:56.099
David Tennant.

843
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:59.760
Hey, but yeah, I mean, he does the accent.

844
00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:01.559
Oh, yeah, yeah.

845
00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:03.059
And Trim and Capote, of course, yeah.

846
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:04.559
Yeah, that's on.

847
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:07.619
Just as a segue, if, oh no, it won't be by the time this has gone

848
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:07.860
out.

849
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:12.179
There's a great little Doco on Kapote that's part of the Mardi

850
00:43:12.179 --> 00:43:15.599
Gras Film Festival, but you'll be able to get it on download worth

851
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:16.199
watching.

852
00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:17.159
Capote.

853
00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:19.019
Yeah, Toby Jones, I mean, and Capote.

854
00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:20.820
Quite different people underneath, though.

855
00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:25.440
I think it's one of the things that struck me about the Dreamlord

856
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:29.579
is that he's a male villain, and rightly the Russell T. Davies era

857
00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:33.000
is full to the brim of great female villains, and that's great.

858
00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:37.860
But we've been, I think, missing a really good strong male

859
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:40.500
opposite for the doctor as well, and the Dream Lord is that.

860
00:43:56.099 --> 00:44:01.199
So, the doctor, the doctor has found himself in a van and he's

861
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:04.800
luckily found some, some younger people in Ledworth to rescue from

862
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.980
the old age pensioners, but it's got to be said that none of those

863
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:11.880
people look at all convincingly like they're running in terror

864
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:15.480
from the old age people and all of them look like stunt performers

865
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:18.360
working out how to, how to get onto a moving vehicle.

866
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.239
What are they doing there?

867
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:22.139
What's that bit for?

868
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.699
I don't know.

869
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:27.360
And it's indicative of the problem with this episode in that it's

870
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:28.619
hedging its bets.

871
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:30.780
It doesn't really know what it wants to be.

872
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:34.019
It doesn't know if it wants to be a strange dream world where

873
00:44:34.019 --> 00:44:37.440
they're in an empty leadworth, which is just populated with old

874
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.800
people with eyes coming out of their mouths, or if it wants to be

875
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:44.880
sort of have one foot in the real world and have actual regular

876
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:48.659
people inhabiting this village and running away from the menacing

877
00:44:48.659 --> 00:44:49.320
old people.

878
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:52.739
And so it just kind of like throws it in to kind of, you know, give

879
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:55.320
a nod towards it, and it's not convincing in the slightest.

880
00:44:55.380 --> 00:44:59.159
You know, I think it's there to critique because at every stage

881
00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:03.420
the Dreamlord is critiquing how the doctor acts, how he behaves is

882
00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:04.440
modus operandi.

883
00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:07.860
So he has to have a moment in the episode where he's saving people

884
00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:09.900
because otherwise he doesn't get to do that.

885
00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:13.320
Um, except it doesn't, it never really makes the point about

886
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:13.679
that.

887
00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:17.760
And so it sticks kind of oddly mid-episode and leaves you

888
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:19.320
wondering what exactly it's trying to do.

889
00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:24.119
The other problem, I think, with lead worth is that it's clearly

890
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:28.139
meant to be like an idol in some way, and it's meant to contrast

891
00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:29.820
with the Tartars.

892
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:35.219
It's got to be a possible sort of attractive outcome of Amy and

893
00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:36.059
Rory's life.

894
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:38.699
But it is so miserable.

895
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:40.800
It's the most miserable.

896
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.679
I thought it was snowing. gorgeous.

897
00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:48.659
They're freezing their butt off, sitting on that bench while snow

898
00:45:48.659 --> 00:45:49.800
falls on them.

899
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:53.699
The playground is like a massive mud patch.

900
00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:56.099
Like why is anyone outside playing at all?

901
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:01.139
It's it's the most miserable location shoot since Black Orchard, I

902
00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:01.440
reckon.

903
00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:04.619
Rory has fulfilled his dream of becoming a doctor, apparently.

904
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.039
And the most exciting thing he has to deal with is is your hippo

905
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:08.400
okay?

906
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:11.699
Yeah, that's right.

907
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:12.300
That's right.

908
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.840
And then when you go to the scene shot over at the, at the house

909
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.219
they're all sunny and bright.

910
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:20.579
So we're back to freak weather conditions, clearly.

911
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.639
Well, they've run out of money and they can't remount and it

912
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:25.139
doesn't matter what the weather is.

913
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:26.699
We're going to get this in the can.

914
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:28.860
Upper Ledworth, indeed.

915
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:30.480
Cheap, cheaper lead work.

916
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:32.400
So miserable.

917
00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:37.139
Do you feel it's missing an axe on because those things that those

918
00:46:37.139 --> 00:46:38.880
things that pop out of their mouths.

919
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.760
Like, like, like enormous thermometers are a bit axe on axe on.

920
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:48.659
I think they were scoped for a really whacked out kind of surreal

921
00:46:48.659 --> 00:46:52.980
version of those upper Ledworth scenes, but instead it's sort of

922
00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:55.440
mildly menacing old deers shuffling around.

923
00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:57.659
And while that has charms of its own.

924
00:46:57.719 --> 00:46:59.519
I'm not sure it quite gets there.

925
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:04.860
Yeah, there's a, I've got the, I was telling Nathan before, I've

926
00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:07.139
I've just Googled up the shooting script, which is available

927
00:47:07.139 --> 00:47:11.940
online, and the beer where the old age pensioners are attacking

928
00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:14.699
the house and Amy and Rory are trapped inside.

929
00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:17.639
Um, I don't know if you remember, there's a shot looking out the

930
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:21.239
window where 2 of them are, 2 of them have got their hands on the

931
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:21.840
TARS.

932
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:25.079
They're kind of, they look half like they're trying to push it

933
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:27.659
over and half like they're using it to steady themselves.

934
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:33.900
The shooting script says, but it's an homage to 2001.

935
00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:36.059
Where...

936
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:39.900
Where the aliens were looking at the monolith and sort of gazing

937
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:41.340
up adoringly at it.

938
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.880
And I thought to myself, I did not get that at all.

939
00:47:44.940 --> 00:47:49.679
If you'd asked me, if you'd asked me, name the, name the bit of

940
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.280
Kubra Commage in Amy's choice, I would not have plumbed for when

941
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:57.239
the, um, when the old people are, you know, just, um, are hugging

942
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.599
the TARDIS briefly out of a, out of a, looked out of a window.

943
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:01.380
Weird.

944
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.920
I think it is that thing that we say about Simon Nye.

945
00:48:04.980 --> 00:48:08.280
Like there are disadvantages to someone who doesn't quite know

946
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:11.579
what Doctor Who does writing for it.

947
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.519
But I also think that it means that we do something that we've

948
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.699
never done before, and I'm absolutely on board with that.

949
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:20.880
I wish that Russell had written this because you can't see him

950
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:26.099
passing up a setup like murderous old people and not having the

951
00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:27.480
most amount of fun with it.

952
00:48:27.539 --> 00:48:31.380
And there's not a whole lot of fun to be gained from those

953
00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:32.039
images.

954
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:35.159
I mean, maybe the one where the doctor sort of chucks that old

955
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:37.199
biddy from the 2nd floor window with a lamp.

956
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:40.980
I mean, that's about the closest it comes to being outlandish and

957
00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:42.539
a bit surreal and shocking.

958
00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:46.320
Yeah, you don't remember Freddie and Daphne doing that in Scooby

959
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:46.320
Doo?

960
00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:48.420
Although.

961
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.639
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

962
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:22.679
We'll be back next week to find out how 2020 turned out as we take

963
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.320
a trip with the Silurians to the hungry earth.

964
00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:28.860
In the meantime, you can find us where wherever you get your

965
00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:31.739
podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flight For Entirety on

966
00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:35.639
Facebook, at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, Flight

967
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:38.940
For Entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts

968
00:49:38.940 --> 00:49:41.039
Bondfinger, and Jody into Terra.

969
00:49:41.099 --> 00:49:43.739
Johnny, where can people find you online?

970
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:48.480
They can find me on Twitter at Johnny Spandrel and read everything

971
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:51.300
I've ever thought about Doctor Who at randomhunas.com.

972
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.539
And Johnny's also contactable if you have any problems with the

973
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:55.260
Shebogans.

974
00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:01.199
Awesome.

975
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:05.099
Until next time, please remember to hoover the console room

976
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:09.360
thoroughly after your next trip to the Candle Meadows of Carraston

977
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:10.079
Slava.

978
00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:12.420
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

979
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:13.380
Good night.

980
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:14.280
Good night.

981
00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:16.320
Nighty night, dear listener.

982
00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:23.760
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

983
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:26.039
Griffiths, Johnny Spandrel, and Richard Stone.

984
00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:27.960
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

985
00:50:28.019 --> 00:50:32.099
This episode, a man who sees his own shadows, was recorded on the

986
00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:35.760
27th of February 2021 and released on the 25th of April.

987
00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:42.239
For those of you dismayed that the last 2 episodes of Flight 3

988
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:45.179
entirety have focussed on the details of the regular characters

989
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:48.300
romantic relationships, we would like to reassure you that normal

990
00:50:48.300 --> 00:50:51.780
service will resume next week with monsters with space names

991
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:53.340
wearing rubber suits.

992
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:54.420
We'll see you then.

993
00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:01.079
Yeah, you don't remember Freddy and Daphne doing that in Scooby

994
00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:01.079
Doo.

995
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:06.239
Although, Well, you know, if they got mini from the end of time, I

996
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:08.280
cheerfully crack her over the head with a 2 button.

997
00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:10.019
That is not staying in.

998
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:11.880
That's so agious.

999
00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:12.719
I'm right here.

1000
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:18.119
I reckon I've got an out there, so I might wind it up.

1001
00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:19.500
We're going to...

1002
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:22.139
Did we miss any extraordinary things to say about this?

1003
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:24.300
I'm trying to think about extraordinary things.

1004
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:24.960
Nah.

1005
00:51:25.019 --> 00:51:30.420
No, I think it's thin, but I think it's thin.

1006
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:32.880
I want to know why Johnny likes it so much because we all think

1007
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.539
you're daft.

1008
00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:34.980
No, no, I like it.

1009
00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:36.599
I didn't like it originally.

1010
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:39.840
No, but seriously, Johnny, can you talk about why you think it's

1011
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:41.039
one of the best to this season?

1012
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:47.699
I find, um, I, it might be me being slightly unfair to other

1013
00:51:47.699 --> 00:51:51.539
episodes in the season, but I always find there's something that

1014
00:51:51.539 --> 00:51:55.079
kind of irritates me about each of them. you know, in a way that I

1015
00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:55.980
can't get past.

1016
00:51:56.039 --> 00:52:00.960
And particularly in the 1st half of the season, less so in the 2nd

1017
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:06.239
half of the season, but this, I guess I like this because, um, I, I

1018
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:13.199
can't find anything in it that, that, Makes me, um, Makes me

1019
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:13.920
dislike it.

1020
00:52:13.980 --> 00:52:15.840
You know, that makes me that I can't get over it.

1021
00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:19.739
You know, I think that it's, it's the, it's the novelty of the

1022
00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:24.360
concept, it's the wittiness of the writing, it's the warmth of the

1023
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:29.099
performances, and it's probably got a lot to do with Toby Jones in

1024
00:52:29.099 --> 00:52:30.659
that protagonist role too.

1025
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.199
For me, it all hangs together nicely in a way that a lot of the

1026
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:34.800
upper episodes.

1027
00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:36.000
Didn't.

1028
00:52:36.059 --> 00:52:38.519
But I'm getting the sense that maybe I'm having a very different

1029
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:42.420
reaction to this season to to the ones you guys are having.

1030
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:46.619
Well, from what you just said there, I wouldn't fight your

1031
00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:48.659
characterisation of the episode very hard there.

1032
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.880
I think there's actually a lot to be said for.

1033
00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:53.699
I didn't warm to it, but, you know, I'm on board with a lot of

1034
00:52:53.699 --> 00:52:54.059
what you said.

1035
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:57.900
All right, I think I'm going to do an outro.

1036
00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:00.239
I think that's actually not a bad place to stop.

1037
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:00.659
That was good.

1038
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:01.260
Thanks, Richard.

1039
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:05.639
That elicited a good kind of final speech.

1040
00:53:05.699 --> 00:53:06.539
All right?

1041
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.199
Here goes.

1042
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:12.239
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.