WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:57:08 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:48.960 Hello, D listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which did fall for Mrs. Pogget's nice old lady act, and we're still trying to get the dust out of our favourite woolly jumper. 2 00:00:49.020 --> 00:00:50.640 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:51.539 I'm Peter. 4 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:52.740 I'm Johnny. 5 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:57.960 And I'm a Zimmer frame with a dodgy 3rd eye and a terrible case of halitosis for this one. 6 00:00:58.740 --> 00:01:12.060 Well, this week we're freezing to death both in Ledworth and inside the spaceship while trying to work out what's reality and what's merely a dodgy children's science fiction program from the 1960s. 7 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:15.299 Are we Team Rory or Team the Doctor? 8 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:18.359 Let's find out in Amy's choice. 9 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.540 So Johnny, is this the cheap one? 10 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:41.579 I don't know if it's the cheap one of the season, but it's definitely one of my favourites. 11 00:01:41.579 --> 00:01:45.599 And this is a season that I struggle with a little bit. 12 00:01:45.659 --> 00:01:58.859 I run a bit hot and cold on some of the episodes, um, often episode by episode, but if this is the cheap one, it shows that the, some of the most interesting stuff can come out of the, uh, the one with the least resources. 13 00:01:58.920 --> 00:01:59.280 I think. 14 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.239 It is basically the standing set, isn't it? 15 00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:06.540 And then a sort of fairly straightforward location shoot. 16 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:07.799 That's right. 17 00:02:07.859 --> 00:02:13.199 And I think, um, Because it was shot last with the lodger and they truly had run out of money. 18 00:02:13.259 --> 00:02:16.080 This wasn't a typical Oh, we've run out of money at the end of the season. 19 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:17.280 There was just no money. 20 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:19.919 And so they shot this with the lodger. 21 00:02:19.979 --> 00:02:24.360 And yes, so this is the cheap one, but actually, I think it's the slightly unambitious one. 22 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:31.319 I think the lodger does a much better job of being cheap and being focussed and about something than this episode does. 23 00:02:31.860 --> 00:02:48.360 Oh, I think I think this one, for me anyway, the focus on this one is on the relationships between the 3 characters, I think that's why I like it more than most things in the season because although some of the stories don't do much for me. 24 00:02:48.419 --> 00:02:58.259 I really like these 3 characters of the doctor, Amy and Rory, and so an episode that really changes them from the beginning of the episodes of the last of the episode. 25 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:00.659 That's where I find the focus in this episode. 26 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:02.580 Oh yeah, I'm totally with you. 27 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:04.379 And I love those 3 characters as well. 28 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.560 Maybe Rory is slightly less than the doctor and Amy, but I think they're all good. 29 00:03:07.620 --> 00:03:10.680 And I really loud what this episode is going for. 30 00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:15.360 I'm just not sure it entirely comes off, and so I'm left a little bit underwhelmed by it. 31 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:17.580 Not very underwhelmed, but a little bit underwhelmed. 32 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:20.460 Is it this season's boom town? 33 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:22.919 It's not quite boomtown. 34 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:26.939 You definitely get the sense that it's um, Hastily, shall we say? 35 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:28.259 put together. 36 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:34.919 And I think there's some wasting of a cast and some opportunities that aren't there, but it's good direction. 37 00:03:34.979 --> 00:03:38.520 It's tight, which this sort of thing really needs. 38 00:03:38.580 --> 00:03:51.719 The old people's home thing is done delicately and with great warmth, and then you get beating up an LAP, which really stuck in the core at the time, and it's still shocking now. 39 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:55.379 My memory is that it was a blow to the head and I'm grateful that it's to the shoulder. 40 00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.180 But really, I'm not really grateful to see any LAP beaten up and I really don't think that. 41 00:04:00.300 --> 00:04:02.819 It just doesn't sit in Doctor Who. 42 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:04.319 See, I adore it. 43 00:04:04.379 --> 00:04:10.860 I'm happy to have old people and don't forget that we do push Mrs. Pocket off the roof. 44 00:04:11.699 --> 00:04:15.360 And let's not forget that John Pertwe got into fights all the time. 45 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.100 Yeah, no, I really adore that. 46 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.839 And I do think it is the sort of thing that little kids are actually likely to enjoy. 47 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:26.100 Sure they would. 48 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:31.139 I think it's something really creepy about the slow, deliberate way they move too. 49 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:32.339 I think. 50 00:04:32.339 --> 00:04:34.079 Yeah, the great playground chasings thing. 51 00:04:34.139 --> 00:04:45.959 To me, that kind of makes it okay to push them off buildings or whack them with bits of wood because they're clearly not the friendly, cuddly old people, but, um, with their clearly something alien and something unpleasant. 52 00:04:46.019 --> 00:04:48.600 Yeah, this is blink on a playground budget. 53 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:50.459 No, it really is. 54 00:04:50.519 --> 00:05:00.000 And it should probably be called Rory's story, not Amy's choice, since we find out who Rory is, the hair, we need to talk about that. 55 00:05:00.060 --> 00:05:01.500 Oh my god. 56 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:03.060 It's so great. 57 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:09.660 There's that massive symbolic moment where Rory cuts the ponytail on. 58 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:12.000 Oh, it's so Samson and Delighto. 59 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.160 It's the emotional arc of the episode. 60 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:18.060 But then Karen just says, I was starting to like it. 61 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.459 Which makes me doubt her. 62 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:25.139 But it's just undercutting him at like every available moment. 63 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:27.899 But the hair is so disgusting. 64 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:39.240 It actually makes me like the character a little bit less and I know that that is slightly the effect that they're going for, but it's terrible having to sit through the episode looking at that hair and it's not just the mullet. 65 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:40.620 It's the dreadful top as well. 66 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:42.779 It's artful, isn't it? 67 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:53.100 The ponytail is terrible, but then so is Amy's fake pregnancy belly that she's got that she carts around unconvincingly for the whole episode. 68 00:05:53.339 --> 00:06:00.300 So you've got you've got both companions working with sort of unwieldy costume slash props throughout the whole thing. 69 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:19.439 I'd like to see that as a nod at the same year too, um, the great Australian, um, Saint Nicole Kidman, who was wearing exactly the same thing at the, uh, at the Golden Globes and then turned up on the set of Australia a week later with an absolutely flat belly. true because my friends were working on it. 70 00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:21.180 I thought you meant a mullet. 71 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.759 And once she married several of those. 72 00:06:23.819 --> 00:06:31.740 Yeah, no, I thought that was, look, it really does lampoon every sacred cow, doesn't it? 73 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:36.240 And I'd like to think that it's having a nod at Midsomer murders and all of those British. 74 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:36.600 Yeah. 75 00:06:36.660 --> 00:06:42.240 Oh, totally is. other, you know, sacred stallards and maybe are not at their audiences as well. 76 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:43.980 Very much so. 77 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:45.480 Very much so. 78 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:59.220 So, yeah, even though it seems, shall we say, Jejune, one 1st viewing for several of us sitting here doing this podcast, it, I get what Johnny's saying, because it's, it actually does go deeper and touch deeper. 79 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:00.300 Who's the writer on this one? 80 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:02.160 It's a lady person writer isn't it? 81 00:07:02.220 --> 00:07:04.680 No, actually, it's really interesting who it is. 82 00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:06.060 It's Simon Nye. 83 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:09.120 So he is a reasonably big name. 84 00:07:09.180 --> 00:07:11.459 Bill knows Toy Child. 85 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.759 So back then he was best known for men behaving badly. 86 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:15.839 Which is very good. 87 00:07:15.899 --> 00:07:16.860 Yeah it's pretty good. 88 00:07:16.980 --> 00:07:19.259 Now it's he's best known for the Dorrells. 89 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:19.800 Okay. 90 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:21.540 Yeah, but Darrell is fun. 91 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:49.139 I think this season seems to have a sort of embarrassment of writers in that it can, it can even afford to shift Neil Gaiman, of all people, to next season, you know, and I think that this is a really smart and witty episode, and I was looking online to see if Simon Knight kind of wished he'd come back, and he's sort of going, no, no, I'm quite happy to have just done my wine, it was fun, and that's all I want to do, but, um, I could have, uh, I could have gone for another episode or 2 from him. 92 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.620 Certainly, his dialogue is really funny. 93 00:07:52.620 --> 00:07:55.439 And, you know, the, that opening scene. 94 00:07:55.500 --> 00:07:56.399 That makes it work. 95 00:07:56.459 --> 00:08:00.779 Yeah, you know that opening scene where they're in Ledworth and... 96 00:08:00.779 --> 00:08:03.240 And the dog... 97 00:08:03.300 --> 00:08:05.579 Like the doctor is incredibly bored. 98 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:07.800 And so there's that sort of wonderful line. 99 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:10.079 What do you do to stave off the self-harm? 100 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:16.079 And then, you know, they wake up in the TARDIS and he identifies it as a terrible nightmare. 101 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.180 And the other 2 have just had a dream. 102 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:19.500 Well, a man. 103 00:08:19.500 --> 00:08:21.300 Yeah, a really good man. 104 00:08:22.139 --> 00:08:26.939 Um, like all of that stuff is funny and there is funny dialogue all the way through. 105 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:30.839 I love the moment where Rory decides that he doesn't like the Dream Lord. 106 00:08:30.899 --> 00:08:36.480 You know, like several minutes after the rest of us have all sort of decided that he's a villain. 107 00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:37.740 Like all of that stuff. 108 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:39.600 I think I think lifts it. 109 00:08:39.659 --> 00:08:43.559 And it's quite nice to all the dialogue that's given to the Dreamlord. 110 00:08:43.620 --> 00:08:46.379 That kind of throwaway sarcasm is always very funny. 111 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:51.960 Like when he's in the butcher's shop and he says, oh, we've got to use these places or else they'll close down. 112 00:08:52.019 --> 00:09:00.659 It's like, yeah, just those nice things. lines that, yeah, and he does it with a middle club with a sneer it out at the, at the dwindling middle class, which is what this is about. 113 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:02.580 Is it politically? 114 00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:04.620 No, it doesn't have political stance, does it? 115 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.820 It's just saying, this is the BBC and aren't we twee, but we love us anyway. 116 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:10.799 I love the Dreamlord. 117 00:09:10.860 --> 00:09:12.299 I love Toby Jones. 118 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:13.320 Love Toby Jones. 119 00:09:13.379 --> 00:09:13.620 Yeah. 120 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:15.000 He's just amazing. 121 00:09:15.059 --> 00:09:20.759 And I think the the, the real genius of it is the, is the wheedling away at the doctor. 122 00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:36.600 I don't think we've ever seen anyone do this to say, look, you know, to be sort of, um, being narky to him all the time, sort of pointing out, pointing out his his tawdry quirks and so on and saying, you know, just undermining his confidence all the time. 123 00:09:36.659 --> 00:09:52.559 It's just, it's, it's really sort of wicked and, and it's, um, it, it makes it feel like, you know, the theme of this story that the doctor has this uh, underlying self-doubt and self-loathing. 124 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:55.679 This is, uh, this is for me is something new. 125 00:09:55.740 --> 00:09:57.059 I don't think we see it anywhere else. 126 00:09:57.059 --> 00:09:59.700 And it could have developed something else. 127 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:08.639 You know, you could see this being a story arc of some sort where the doctor's lack of confidence in his own abilities actually becomes a problem later on. 128 00:10:08.700 --> 00:10:15.600 So I think for me, it's a combination of a really nifty idea and a great performance that that lifts the whole thing. 129 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:42.360 I've said before that Moffat's doctors are Moffat, and they both were like all 3 of them, I guess, um, have some degree of self-loathing. 130 00:10:42.419 --> 00:10:48.059 Like, I think it's actually a super interesting insight at this point. 131 00:10:48.059 --> 00:10:55.259 Like, now I can't have seen Matt Smith in action, and he can't really have known where things were going to go. 132 00:10:55.320 --> 00:11:08.759 But all the way back from joking apart, Moffatt has had this feeling that he's a bit of a bad person and and so his doctors are a little bit like that. 133 00:11:08.820 --> 00:11:15.000 And so in the 11th hour, he lies to Amy about why he's bringing her on board. 134 00:11:15.059 --> 00:11:24.419 You know, he sort of flatters her by saying, oh, you know, I'm lonely, or confirming her guess that that's the reason, but really he's brought her on board because of the crack. 135 00:11:24.539 --> 00:11:27.419 And then all of next season. 136 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:31.379 He lies about her pregnancy or conceals it from her or whatever. 137 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.279 And he is kind of a bad person. 138 00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:41.220 And so this does seem to be crystallising that theme really sort of surprisingly early. 139 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:47.100 And although they don't run with it explicitly, we never see the Dream Lord again or anything like him. 140 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:53.220 I think it does reflect something that's eventually a feature of the doctor in the Moffat era. 141 00:11:53.460 --> 00:11:55.980 It's a new broom as well. 142 00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:02.279 You can't imagine the story being told with David Tennant's I'm clever, doctor, doing the same thing. 143 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:07.320 You need a doctor who's got that kind of introspection and those foibles to kind of chip away at. 144 00:12:07.379 --> 00:12:15.240 I can almost see it with Charlton, but it ends, it sets up an interesting polemic with Jamie and so yeah, Charlton. 145 00:12:15.299 --> 00:12:16.860 And we all know it was Trout. 146 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:22.440 There has to be a vulnerability in the doctor for this story to work. 147 00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:33.539 And because the Dream Lord's so nasty about a whole lot of things like the way the doctor dresses, the way he looks, the way he surrounds himself with young girls, you know, all of these things, which are, um... 148 00:12:33.539 --> 00:12:34.860 Very Davison. 149 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.879 Their point, their points of... 150 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.379 Did I say not just in the series? 151 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:41.159 I didn't say that. 152 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:43.139 Oh. 153 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.379 But it would have worked with Davison as well, wouldn't it, Johnny? 154 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.620 I mean, there's a few, you need a soft doctor for this to it. 155 00:12:49.679 --> 00:13:12.419 And look, I don't know what you guys have been talking about in the earlier episodes, of course, but I think that for me, Matt Smith's doctor took a little while to land because he was kind of in Tenant's shadow a bit because we was coming from one young, dashing handsome doctor to another, and so I feel that in his 1st couple of episodes, he's trying to find what differentiates him from Tenet. 156 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:21.000 And it's around these episodes like Amy's Choice and Vincent and the Lodger, where you start to see that this is a very different doctor. 157 00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:33.179 You know, he's he's goofier, he's more guileless, he's more of an innocent, he's more childlike, and and I think Matt Smith is less afraid to make himself look a bit foolish on screen, if you know what I mean. 158 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:40.440 Like, I'm thinking of that, where he's running away from the old people and he's going to hide himself in the, in the butcher's safe. 159 00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:51.360 He's not afraid to to kind of fall about and look, do his kind of gawky, awkward movement kind of thing. has a physicality that's really been missing from the doctor, I think. 160 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:52.559 Yeah, I agree. 161 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:52.860 Yeah. 162 00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:55.200 So for me, this is where I start to. 163 00:13:55.259 --> 00:14:00.419 I start to like this doctor a little bit more around these mid and late episodes of this season. 164 00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:26.700 You see, we pretty much thought that he landed straight away and we were absolutely relieved by the difference between him and Tennant and and I guess in this episode, I thought the most striking new thing that he does is his reaction to the Dreamlord when the Dreamlord 1st turns up because, you know, when Tennant does anger, it's all teeth and kind of flecks of spittle and things. 165 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:36.059 And and Matt sets his face in a really, really, um, like in a different way. 166 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:44.580 He's been angry before and he's been low key angry before, but there's a real level of contempt in the way that just he sets his jaw. 167 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.179 He barely moves his mouth as he speaks to the dreamlord. 168 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:54.240 And that's the thing that strikes me about Matt, is his ability to do anger. 169 00:14:54.360 --> 00:15:03.299 Uh, and to be threatening, without kind of going over the top, without shouting, by by underplaying it. 170 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:10.740 And, you know, that thing about the doctor has some line about where did you pick up this ridiculous cabaret or something like that. 171 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:16.799 And I think he's really properly threatening and he's not going to tolerate any of the Dreamlord's crap. 172 00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:22.139 And so the goofiness and that weird, awkward physicality and stuff. 173 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:27.600 Uh, you know, like a strange contrast to, to some real steel. 174 00:15:27.659 --> 00:15:28.559 Do you know what I mean? 175 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:35.639 And some real proper menace, uh, that Matt is capable of that I don't think Tennant ever really attempted. 176 00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:38.940 I think tenant, tenants doctor so wants to be likeable. 177 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:43.500 Whereas Matt, I don't know, I don't know about Matt. 178 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.320 Matt's a bit like Tom and I think he can be angry in different ways. 179 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:47.340 Yeah. 180 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:48.840 Yeah. certainly. 181 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:57.000 I mean, he doesn't do a big shout in this episode and when he does, we talked about it in the beast below when he sort of suddenly shouts at Amy and it's absolutely terrifying. 182 00:15:57.059 --> 00:16:02.580 Um, but he can do anger in a really low key. 183 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.320 It's early time, isn't it? 184 00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:08.220 It's like Tom in Horror of Fang Rock or Tom in season 12. 185 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.360 That's right. 186 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:10.799 Tom has that steely anger. 187 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:13.320 He can also when he yells, like he does in the pirate planet. 188 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:19.200 It's properly shocking, like when Matt does, but he can also turn anger into comedy, which Matt does as well. 189 00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:26.759 Yeah, and I think if Matt Smith does seem to be better at making the leap between those dark moments in those funny moments. 190 00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:30.899 He seems to be able to turn on a pin a little bit better than tenant perhaps. 191 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:46.259 I think that Tenet is for 10 of the comedy is a mask and and a role that the doctor's playing, and sometimes that drops away, and you can actually visibly see him making it look like it's dropping away. 192 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:47.279 Do you know what I mean? 193 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:50.460 Whereas Matt doesn't seem to have that guile. 194 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:52.860 Like, I think what you see is what you get with Matt. 195 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.000 He's not playing a role. 196 00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:55.139 Yeah. 197 00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:10.799 And Peter, I was interested when you said that, you know, you think that Rory's the, the, the one of these characters, which you think is the, is the one you don't respond to the most, for me, I think that actually the, the team isn't really complete until the 3 of them are there. 198 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:12.900 And I much prefer the combination of the doctor. 199 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:34.859 Dr. Amy and Rory to just the doctor and Amy, because actually, I think the 2 of them bring out something different in Matt's performance because it allows him to take a step back to be a step more aloof from, from, um, from these pair of human companions and he has a male companion and a female companion to interact with in different ways. 200 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.819 And that's what for me is one of the shifts in his character. 201 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:52.380 Throughout this story, is we start off with a competition between the doctor and Rory for Amy's affection, and in the end, the doctor loses, which is a really uncommon thing to happen in a doctor episode. 202 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.359 But in that competition. 203 00:17:54.420 --> 00:17:59.160 Um, the doctor loses and and Amy realises her affection for Rory. 204 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:01.440 Rory realises the power of that too. 205 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:11.700 And the doctor is happy to lose because he finds a way to interact with his companions, which is much more, uh, which he's much more comfortable in, I think. 206 00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:18.480 Well, I mean, wasn't it his intention last week and the week before to actually fix their relationship? 207 00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:36.359 So at the end of flesh and stone, where Amy comes onto him and he sort of grabs her and drags her back into the Tartar and then picks Rory up at his buck's night and takes them to Venice precisely in order to kind of fix the relationship up. 208 00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:39.900 And it doesn't quite take. 209 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:46.740 I mean, they're in quite a good place at the end of vampires of Venice, and Rory's had the chance to kind of critique the doctor a bit. 210 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:50.519 But here is where it actually gets solved. 211 00:18:50.579 --> 00:19:00.539 And I think from here on in, whenever Amy is given the choice between the doctor and Rory, she will always pick Rory, just absolutely reliably. 212 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:02.819 She was never not going to. 213 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:10.319 She just wanted her summer holiday with Ernest Stubbs and Cliff Richard on the top of the red double decker bus. 214 00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:12.359 It's perfectly understandable. 215 00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:16.740 This was just one long hen's night with her raggedy stuffed toy boy. 216 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:25.259 But I think there was a point at which she could have decided not to go back. 217 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:31.079 And I do think that when Rory dies and the doctor travels with Amy... 218 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:31.559 Spoilers. 219 00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:32.819 Yeah, spoilers, sorry. 220 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:34.619 Doesn't that happen in this episode as well? 221 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:35.579 Not really. 222 00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:36.299 Spoilers. 223 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:42.359 Um, that in a way that's almost her making the decision not to go back. 224 00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:46.019 At one point, she can't even remember that there was going to be a wedding. 225 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.980 That 2nd half of the series, you know, she doesn't know that there's going to be a wedding. 226 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.920 She will say to Vincent, she's not the marrying kind. 227 00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:57.119 There comes a point in this season where the decision. 228 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:58.799 And even here, do you know what I mean? 229 00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:00.900 She says, why would anyone leave the Tartars? 230 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:06.299 Why, why would we ever choose to go back and live in upper lead worth like that? 231 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:12.839 Amy's convinced that this is real because she would never make the series of decisions that leads her to Upper Leadworth. 232 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.839 And so I think that it's up in the air. 233 00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:17.579 And that's what this whole season is about. 234 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:26.519 Um, and I think that this episode prefigures the final decision, which is a clever moffety resolution. 235 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.819 I don't actually disagree with any of that. 236 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:37.200 I agree with you, Johnny, that the dynamic works well, and I think that the 3 characters together work well. 237 00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:41.759 The jury for me is slightly out on the success of Rory as a character. 238 00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:44.579 I'm not sure how well defined he is. 239 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:52.440 Um, I do like what happens in this episode and the beat that it hits with um, Amy and Rory and the focus on them. 240 00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.140 But I think it slightly misses the mark. 241 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:01.680 I think there might have been a cleverer or subtler way of telling that character beat. 242 00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:08.700 Does Amy really have to prove that she die for Rory to make the and move their relationship onto firmer ground? 243 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.640 I think that feels a little bit overwrought in the storytelling. 244 00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:20.940 Perhaps you're right, because it does lead to that moment where Amy decides to commit suicide in one of the world and take the doctor with her. 245 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:25.380 And, well, it's all it's all makes sense within the fiction of the story. 246 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.420 It is an odd thing to see in Doctor Who. 247 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:28.859 Yeah. 248 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:30.779 Yeah, and I don't hate it at all. 249 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:32.099 I don't think it's terrible. 250 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.680 I just, it slightly misses the mark for me. 251 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.759 I think it's unsubtle. 252 00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:45.660 And I think if Stephen Moffatt had been writing this episode and we all know he gave it a good old redraft, I think maybe it might have made it in a cleverer way. 253 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:46.319 Yeah. 254 00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:53.579 I compare the Dr. and Amy and Rory's love triangle to the Dr. Rose and Mickey. 255 00:21:53.640 --> 00:22:05.880 And it's really, they're completely different in the sense that there was never any doubt that Rose was going to choose the doctor, right, from the very, from the very 1st episode, and from then on, Mickey is kind of playing catch up all the time. 256 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:13.440 I think it's interesting that the series then decides to say, there's something valuable in just being human. 257 00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:18.420 And I think that Rory's great active love for Amy is travelling in TARDIS. 258 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:26.700 Like, he would not, he'd always strikes me, but he wouldn't necessarily choose to do that, except that he knows that that's what makes um, Amy happy. 259 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:29.339 And so he's, he's gone along for the ride. 260 00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:31.859 And that Amy finds something. 261 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:38.759 Find something in that basic humanity, which is a little bit more than the doctor can offer. 262 00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:41.460 Johnny, that's exactly it, actually. 263 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:48.539 I think, um, it's the fact that Rory makes concessions for Amy, um, and that is his sacrifice and that's because he loves her. 264 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:55.559 And I think what I would have preferred to have seen was rather than some big act or big revelation or epiphany for Amy. 265 00:22:55.619 --> 00:22:58.980 I just wanted to see her decide to make concessions for him. 266 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:00.839 Yes, that's all it's printed on. 267 00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:02.519 That's all it would have taken. 268 00:23:02.579 --> 00:23:04.980 We need the arrogance to chip down a bit. 269 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:06.900 It's not even defensibility on her part. 270 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.500 It's just knowing that she's the alpha in the chicken coop. 271 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:11.400 Yeah. 272 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:14.640 And there's a lot of squawking and feather ruffling in this episode. 273 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:21.720 And Johnny, that was a really good comparison, actually, with Rose and Mickey and the doctor, which hadn't, I hadn't actually thought about very much. 274 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.039 No, because they're dead to me too. 275 00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:26.700 It's all a tea. 276 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:39.420 I think Boomtown is very instructive here because Boomtown does such a great job of tackling and moving Rose and Mickey's relationship to a different level. 277 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:44.700 And it does it breaking your heart with small, with little things that happen. 278 00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:46.259 Like, brilliant writing. 279 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:47.279 Oh, good. 280 00:23:47.339 --> 00:23:53.640 And it works for the characters because it reinforces what roses, which is using Mickey. 281 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:57.599 You know, he's there when she wants to go to a hotel for an hour and then she'll up and leave him. 282 00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:05.279 Whereas Mickey is utterly devoted to her and realises in that episode that she will never feel the same way about him and so he has to move on. 283 00:24:05.339 --> 00:24:11.759 Um, Yeah, I feel like I'm bagging Amy's choice a little bit and I am, but it's only a little bit. 284 00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:16.079 I feel like I would have liked more of that kind of boom town ethos to it. 285 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:27.240 I like that there's an inherent tension between them that never really goes away. 286 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:35.819 Sometimes there's a general thought about Doctor Who, but everyone who is on the TARDIS crew has to get on and they have to be soulmates and they have to love each other and they have to great time all the time. 287 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:37.319 Like Tegan and Adrick. 288 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.519 Like Tegan and Annie Bob. 289 00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:43.259 Taking a chameleon. 290 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:55.200 And while I'm not necessarily in bickering with roundels, but I think that there's room for differences in how the characters see the situations and I think that's interesting. 291 00:24:55.259 --> 00:25:08.099 And if I can scoot a forward a few episodes to the impossible astronaut to just pull in something that Nathan was saying about Matt Smith's ability to to kind of to be angry. 292 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:17.039 It's just a terrific beat in that episode when they're in the Tartar, and the doctor that knows that his companions are keeping something from him. 293 00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:21.119 And he just says to Amy, why has somebody put you up to this? 294 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:26.880 And he shoots a just a look of pure venom at Rory at that point. 295 00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:27.839 Right. 296 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:39.059 And it's, to me, it's always chilling that just that that little moment he chooses to play that line by just reminding us that he's never, he's never as comfortable with Rory as he is with Amy. 297 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:41.640 That's right, they never love each other, do they? 298 00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:42.539 The doctor and Rory? 299 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:47.099 Not in the, yeah, certainly not within that unconditional way, but Amy and the doctor do. 300 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:51.660 And it's Amy that appears to the doctor when he regenerates, not Rory. 301 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.720 Not even Amy and Rory and River, just Amy. 302 00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:59.339 It's there's 2 points there. that tension between the 3 of them is interesting. 303 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.420 It's what it, what makes this, this trio of characters work. 304 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:11.759 And also just, just echoing what Nathan's saying is that occasionally Matt Smith can really just shock you if how serious and how grim he can, he can be. 305 00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:29.819 I actually think again, the choices between childhood and adulthood. 306 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:37.980 And so, you have Amy running off with her imaginary childhood friend on the night before her wedding in order to avoid her wedding. 307 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:51.839 And here, she has the choice between hanging around with him in the magic box, you know, in this sort of fantasy land, and actual adulthood, and motherhood, right? 308 00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:58.740 Pregnancy, being married, and for her, the choice is still childhood. 309 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:09.059 But I think that what's interesting and the reason that Rory has to die in Ledworth is to change what that choice means. 310 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:27.720 So originally, there's a big conversation between Amy and Rory in the TARDIS, about the relative merits of travelling in the TARDIS and Ledworth, and she's very clear that she wants to travel in the TARDIS, and Rory is a bit kind of miffed by that because he recognises rightly that it's a rejection of him. 311 00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:35.640 You know, she excitedly says it can continue to be the night before our wedding for as long as we like, isn't that great. 312 00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:38.220 And he's, you know. 313 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:48.299 And so when Rory dies in Ledworth, her choice to go back on the Tartars is no longer a choice to avoid Rory. 314 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.380 It's the choice to have Rory in her life because she loves him. 315 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.980 And so the whole valency of that choice changes with his death. 316 00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:57.599 And I think that that's why it's there. 317 00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:00.779 I agree with you, Peter that it is all a little bit overwrought. 318 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:05.640 Although Karen underplays it so wonderful. good in this episode. 319 00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:10.019 Remember when she says to the doctor, well, what's the point of view then? 320 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:12.359 That's got to be a moth that line? 321 00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:13.799 That feels so mothy. 322 00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:15.839 It's so good though, isn't it? 323 00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:19.440 You know, like, you're not Rory, I don't love you. 324 00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:25.680 If you can't get me out of this scrape, if you can't save Ferri's life, then why are you even here? 325 00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:34.079 I find that an appalling line and one that really reveals the self-centredness of, I won't say millennials because hello, listener. 326 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:40.559 But it really just shows me that even though Moffatt, Stephen Moffatt writes. 327 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:49.920 Uh, we've talked about his female paradigms before, but he still understands his own foibles and it's interesting, isn't it? 328 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:51.779 He is a man who sees his own shadows. 329 00:28:51.779 --> 00:28:54.240 So he still writes her. 330 00:28:54.599 --> 00:29:02.279 Yeah, I guess in a way that Russell had always set up Rose, that the flaws are very clear, the cracks are very open and well lit. 331 00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:12.240 And I think it just shows us what a flawed person, Amy, really is to expect the doctor to still be a Freudian or Jungian child archetype when he's also just another person. 332 00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:14.940 Okay, he's a very big person, but trying to do his best. 333 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:21.420 Yeah, but I think Moffatt doesn't write Doctor Who liked that as if they're sort of real people who need kind of... 334 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.359 Yeah, I think that the doctor plays a story role. 335 00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:42.599 It's almost like, like she's, she's rejecting him as a sort of potential sort of mate or match or hero or something like that and is putting him in the role of the sort of daffy madman in a box that Hartnell is, you know, Hartnell's not the main character when Doctor Who 1st starts. 336 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:49.259 He's just the crazy old man who gets Ian and Barbara into various scrapes and they're the main character. 337 00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:51.900 And it's kind of like this rejection of the idea. 338 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:54.000 You know, it's this thing. 339 00:29:54.059 --> 00:30:01.380 Why would I want you when I have Rory, you know, you are not my lover, you are not the person I care about. 340 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:08.880 It really, really is, like, it's dark, and, you know, it comes from a sort of inner scene, which is about grief, I guess. 341 00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:18.539 But it is such a such a superbly blunt rejection of the idea that running away with a doctor is the right thing to do. 342 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:24.839 But I think I think that that rejection doesn't take. 343 00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:34.740 And the great thing about Amy's choice is that the end of it when the doctor blows up the TARDIS. 344 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:39.420 He blows up what they've decided is the real world because that's not real either. 345 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:55.859 And what we have at the end is that Amy can be an adult and can have a relationship with Rory without rejecting those elements of her childhood that made her what she is and that were so important to her as a child. 346 00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:59.099 And she'll replay this in the Big Bang. 347 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.599 She gets married, but then she says no, this isn't acceptable. 348 00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:05.160 The doctor should be here. 349 00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:09.900 I'm not going to reject the doctor completely in order to be an adult. 350 00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:17.880 And she brings the doctor back into existence in the same way that Russell brought the doctor back into existence in 2005. 351 00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:26.519 This story has them making a 3rd choice that she doesn't have to choose Ledworth. 352 00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:28.380 She doesn't have to just choose the doctor. 353 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:34.380 She gets to have the doctor and Rory in their rightful place, I think. 354 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:39.779 That is undeniably a good beat for Amy, I think, and sort of makes her character more whole. 355 00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:53.339 Unfortunately, it also reveals the problem with Rory in that Rory runs against the ethos of the series in that the thing that the companion should want to do is go off and have adventures with the doctor, that should be the ultimate thing. 356 00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:58.440 They never want to leave the doctor's side, they want the universe opened up for them, and Rory rails against that. 357 00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:03.900 Rory just wants to live a quiet life and he wants to drag Amy back down into that. 358 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:19.799 Now, I don't necessarily think that that's a terrible thing on Rory's behalf, and I'm not sure that it's the right thing that Amy doesn't want that, but it limits Rory as a character a little bit and makes me feel like I'm not on his side. 359 00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:23.700 It doesn't play out like that though, in the end, does it? 360 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:32.940 And by kind of midway through series 7, Rory and Amy are running off with the doctor to have jolly adventures and then going back to their real lives and stuff. 361 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:34.140 Like, I think he's into it. 362 00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:46.140 Yeah, I like that much more as Rory goes along and as he becomes more sort of acclimatised to the doctor and sort of fulfils the Harry Sullivan role, I warm up to him much more. 363 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:49.380 I do think it's a problem with this season and his character. 364 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.339 And as I said before, not a huge problem, but it niggles away at me slightly. 365 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:55.380 Where do you reckon it's resolved? 366 00:32:55.440 --> 00:33:07.500 I think when he comes back next season and basically chooses to go along with the doctor and the team in the Impossible Astronaut, it starts to get better. 367 00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:15.960 So once you've sort of fulfilled this arc with Amy and him playing that specific role, once he's out of that, it works more as character. 368 00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:18.000 Yeah, I'd say that a Christmas carol. 369 00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:18.779 Yeah. 370 00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:19.259 Yeah. 371 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:45.720 Um, I think it's interesting you describe it as a, as, you know, as the climax of the story being the characters making a 3rd choice, instead of the kind of binary that they're presented with, but I wondered if it doesn't actually work in the other way, but it kind of negates the journey the characters have been on, you know, because Amy makes her choice between these 2 worlds, but actually neither of them were real anyway. 372 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:46.920 So what does it matter? 373 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:48.180 And this is a problem. 374 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:49.319 This is a problem. 375 00:33:49.380 --> 00:34:00.059 I think with story set in kind of dream worlds or cyberspace or whatever it is that you always get the feeling that it was fairly inconsequential at the end. 376 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:16.440 For me, for me, the fact that Amy's choice kind of persists into the real world after we've blown up the 2 makes it a bit more satisfying, but it was just interesting when you described it as a 3rd choice, and I was starting to think, is it actually the lack of a choice between those 2? 377 00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:18.480 I guess so. 378 00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:21.539 It's just that it's the way the characters change. you know what I mean? 379 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:28.920 Like that, even though it hasn't been real, whatever that means, because it's Doctor Who and it's a TV program and it's never real anyway. 380 00:34:28.980 --> 00:34:31.980 Um, but it's, it's not real. 381 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:37.500 But they've changed and Rory and Amy do something they've never done before. 382 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:47.940 We've always seen Amy hesitant and slightly embarrassed by Rory, like right back from the 11th hour and kind of unwilling to show affection to him. 383 00:34:48.420 --> 00:35:10.320 And I remember there's that conversation about who's a gooseberry, like I think the, the dreamlord calls Rory a gooseberry, and that final scene is Rory and Amy staring into each other's eyes and the doctor trying to say something to attract their attention or decide whether he needs to be there at all, and he is absolutely the gooseberry in that scene. 384 00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:20.820 So the dynamic between the characters has changed fundamentally because these 2 choices have been presented to Amy and she's made the choice that she has. 385 00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:28.380 Um, And, you know, like I said, it doesn't take until really the final episode. 386 00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:35.940 But I do think that this in microcosm is the kind of, Kind of the R of the season. 387 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.800 The arc isn't the crack. 388 00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:45.599 The arc is Amy deciding whether to go for adulthood or childhood and eventually deciding, well, I'm having both. 389 00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:48.300 And I love that arc. 390 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:49.500 Like, I just love what it means. 391 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:55.980 I think there's also, on a completely different view of what the choice is that's happening in this episode. 392 00:35:56.039 --> 00:36:09.480 We're also being asked to choose between 2 different types of Doctor Who, I think, because, you know, on one hand, there's the slightly wacky Douglas Adams type, there's aliens living in old people in a sleepy country town kind of Doctor Who's... 393 00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:11.880 And on the other hand, there's the Christopher H. 394 00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:12.780 Bidmead, kind of. 395 00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:17.940 We're all trapped in the TARDIS, and there's a scientific bro, and, you know, we've got to try and work that out kind of thing. 396 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.139 And I don't think... 397 00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:22.199 You're saying we're being asked to choose between inside the spaceship and the keys of marathon? 398 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.780 That's right That's right. 399 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.659 Now, there's a, there's a, there's a point, girls. 400 00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:33.960 That's, um, I don't think anyone was intending that, but that's the kind of effect it has watching it. 401 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:38.460 And I think one of the things the episode does well is it keeps each scene. 402 00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:43.619 In each of the 2 worlds relatively short and punchy. 403 00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:48.840 So we don't get too used to either of the 2 worlds before we're sna back to the other one. 404 00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:56.579 There's always a slight unease about when that bird song is going to be heard and when that transition is going to take place. 405 00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:06.900 It's funny, I originally didn't like this episode very much because I thought that that cold sum thing was just a bit too star trekky, like a little bit too kind of crummy. 406 00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:18.840 And I think the reveal that the doctor knew all along that a cold sun was an impossibility, which is what he says at the end, and maybe he's lying, rule one. 407 00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:24.300 For no good reason other than to extend the narrative in the moment, which is very tricky in itself. 408 00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:29.039 And I think it's a cheap threat in that it's on the screen. you know. 409 00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:31.079 I don't know. 410 00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:36.119 I thought the, the, the, the crystal myth effect was very Sydney, or very Western Australia. 411 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:37.199 It was... 412 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:38.820 Sprinkled all over the Tartars, you know. 413 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.539 It looks great. 414 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:46.139 It must have been when we were saying it's cheap, I thought, actually, cleaning that stuff up is nothing cheap about that. 415 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:48.719 And it is one of the most striking images of the season. 416 00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:50.280 It is. 417 00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:51.719 You know, we're not we're not a huge fan. 418 00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:56.340 I don't think of that console room, but when you turn off those orange lights, doesn't it instantly look better? 419 00:37:56.460 --> 00:37:58.920 I've grown up to it now. 420 00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:04.199 I can see it's his homage to Cushing and his happiness with those colour dalek films. 421 00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:06.599 And the box is trying to do that as well. 422 00:38:06.659 --> 00:38:09.719 We haven't talked about the police box, but why didn't we just get a cushing box? 423 00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:11.340 Come on, it's just so much better. 424 00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:13.320 It's pretty close though, isn't it? 425 00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:14.579 No, no, not to me. 426 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.500 The proportions are all wrong in those windows. 427 00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:20.699 This is the thing about this episode, I think. 428 00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:25.440 It's slightly, it's slightly successful in my mind, but it's also slightly muddled. 429 00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:32.099 And I think it might be because we don't have a natural Doctor Who writer or a natural sci-fi rice behind it. 430 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:37.199 And so the things that it goes for are not the things you would expect that it would go for. 431 00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:49.800 And so it ends up being some weird technobabble explanation for why the dream lord existed in that, which is fine on its own terms, but I don't think a more natural doctor writer might have gone in that direction for it. 432 00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:56.940 But also because, um, like 3 in 3 episodes time, Richard Curtis is an outsider to Doctor Who as well. 433 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:03.840 And he chooses a completely different spin on the program and tackles subject matter that you wouldn't normally within the program. 434 00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:07.380 That's part of why this episode works and why it doesn't. 435 00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:16.679 The technobabbly ending is disappointing and it is unsatisfying after everything that's gone for it. 436 00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:28.320 But for me, it's saved slightly by the little reflection of the rewards face and the console because it makes you remember the doctor's self-doubt and self-loathing hasn't gone away, but it still exists under the surface. 437 00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:45.420 Compare it to roughly the same ending at the end of the trial of a time ward. very strange things to to juxtapose here, except that the one in Amy's choice works far, far better because it's a, it's a reminder of the themes of the episode. 438 00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:50.400 Uh, rather than just a, well, I don't know what it is that happens at the end of the trial. 439 00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:53.099 I should go down that dark path. 440 00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:59.699 It's interesting what Richard said earlier about it would have to be one of the one of the nicer doctors like Davidson. 441 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:17.519 I think a story like this would have worked very well with Colin Baker's doctor because Colin Baker's doctor is all front and all bluster and to have sort of had an opposite to him, which kind of niggled away at him and exposed his failings would have been really interesting. played by Patrick Trouton. 442 00:40:18.179 --> 00:40:20.940 Love to have seen how that would have played out. 443 00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.639 It could only have been played by Brian Blessard. 444 00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:33.900 And the Dream Lord is great, isn't he? 445 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:41.340 It's a really great performance and Toby Jones is it's one of those spunk castings that's actually too good for the show. 446 00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:43.500 We've got Bill Nai in this season. 447 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:48.780 We have we have some other blessed laurels that descend upon our heads, don't we? 448 00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:53.219 So I'm trying to think who else is quite wonderful in this season, Johnny, who else stands out? 449 00:40:53.219 --> 00:40:55.739 In tiny guest pub. 450 00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:59.579 Oh, I wasn't on the... 451 00:40:59.579 --> 00:41:01.500 I think the highest is Helen McCrory. 452 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:04.559 And if you've ever seen her on stage or even in film. 453 00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:09.179 I mean, I know she's Penny Dreadfuls, but if you actually see her do Shakespeare or Raticon or just anything. 454 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.920 She's extraordinary. 455 00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:12.300 She's dying a rig level. 456 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:14.940 You're going to love last week's episode, Richard. 457 00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:23.579 Yeah, I said, I wasn't gone, vampires of Venice, because it's definitely one of my favourites, simply because of how it plays Posh Mummy's son. 458 00:41:23.579 --> 00:41:29.880 And that really does feel like Thatcher and Mark. really what that one's about. 459 00:41:29.940 --> 00:41:37.739 The combination of Matt Smith with a acclaimed older generation actor never fails. 460 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:46.800 And I think for me, the best of it is him and Michael Gambin in a Christmas carol, but it works every time that they bring... 461 00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:52.619 Some of us are feeling a bit sensitive, Johnny, because Toby is actually younger than several of us. 462 00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:55.800 I didn't check that myself before. 463 00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:02.400 Well, you know he's Freddie Jones's son and the wonderful effusive Freddie Jones, who was in everything. 464 00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:06.659 He stands out in his role in June, of course, but he's in a lot of other things as well, isn't he? 465 00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:10.320 I'll just say that Toby Jones never lets a line get away. 466 00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:13.320 You know, he speaks every word in it. 467 00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:18.420 He, he, he reads his line readings are all perfectly calibrated. 468 00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.460 Yeah, he's very theatre. 469 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:25.260 And that's the sort of skill you get from somebody who's been working for a really long time. 470 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:38.519 Toby Jones grew up literally in the dust of the from the sides watching his dad from really early age, at least for what, just watching performances and that he gets intonation. 471 00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:41.099 He gets the structure of language and plays with it. 472 00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:42.420 Have you seen him in dad's army? 473 00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:48.420 Do you know, I can't believe we've got this far without mentioning Dobby the house elf, to be honest. 474 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.280 Oh, yeah. 475 00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:56.099 Oh, the makeup's great. didn't spot it thought he was played by David Tennant. 476 00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:59.760 Hey, but yeah, I mean, he does the accent. 477 00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:01.559 Oh, yeah, yeah. 478 00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:03.059 And Trim and Capote, of course, yeah. 479 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:04.559 Yeah, that's on. 480 00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:07.860 Just as a segue, if, oh no, it won't be by the time this has gone out. 481 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:16.199 There's a great little Doco on Kapote that's part of the Mardi Gras Film Festival, but you'll be able to get it on download worth watching. 482 00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:17.159 Capote. 483 00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:19.019 Yeah, Toby Jones, I mean, and Capote. 484 00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:20.820 Quite different people underneath, though. 485 00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:33.000 I think it's one of the things that struck me about the Dreamlord is that he's a male villain, and rightly the Russell T. Davies era is full to the brim of great female villains, and that's great. 486 00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:40.500 But we've been, I think, missing a really good strong male opposite for the doctor as well, and the Dream Lord is that. 487 00:43:56.099 --> 00:44:18.360 So, the doctor, the doctor has found himself in a van and he's luckily found some, some younger people in Ledworth to rescue from the old age pensioners, but it's got to be said that none of those people look at all convincingly like they're running in terror from the old age people and all of them look like stunt performers working out how to, how to get onto a moving vehicle. 488 00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.239 What are they doing there? 489 00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:22.139 What's that bit for? 490 00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.699 I don't know. 491 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:28.619 And it's indicative of the problem with this episode in that it's hedging its bets. 492 00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:30.780 It doesn't really know what it wants to be. 493 00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:49.320 It doesn't know if it wants to be a strange dream world where they're in an empty leadworth, which is just populated with old people with eyes coming out of their mouths, or if it wants to be sort of have one foot in the real world and have actual regular people inhabiting this village and running away from the menacing old people. 494 00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:55.320 And so it just kind of like throws it in to kind of, you know, give a nod towards it, and it's not convincing in the slightest. 495 00:44:55.380 --> 00:45:04.440 You know, I think it's there to critique because at every stage the Dreamlord is critiquing how the doctor acts, how he behaves is modus operandi. 496 00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:09.900 So he has to have a moment in the episode where he's saving people because otherwise he doesn't get to do that. 497 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:13.679 Um, except it doesn't, it never really makes the point about that. 498 00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:19.320 And so it sticks kind of oddly mid-episode and leaves you wondering what exactly it's trying to do. 499 00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:29.820 The other problem, I think, with lead worth is that it's clearly meant to be like an idol in some way, and it's meant to contrast with the Tartars. 500 00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:36.059 It's got to be a possible sort of attractive outcome of Amy and Rory's life. 501 00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:38.699 But it is so miserable. 502 00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:40.800 It's the most miserable. 503 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.679 I thought it was snowing. gorgeous. 504 00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:49.800 They're freezing their butt off, sitting on that bench while snow falls on them. 505 00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:53.699 The playground is like a massive mud patch. 506 00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:56.099 Like why is anyone outside playing at all? 507 00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:01.440 It's it's the most miserable location shoot since Black Orchard, I reckon. 508 00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:04.619 Rory has fulfilled his dream of becoming a doctor, apparently. 509 00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.400 And the most exciting thing he has to deal with is is your hippo okay? 510 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:11.699 Yeah, that's right. 511 00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:12.300 That's right. 512 00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:17.219 And then when you go to the scene shot over at the, at the house, they're all sunny and bright. 513 00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:20.579 So we're back to freak weather conditions, clearly. 514 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:25.139 Well, they've run out of money and they can't remount and it doesn't matter what the weather is. 515 00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:26.699 We're going to get this in the can. 516 00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:28.860 Upper Ledworth, indeed. 517 00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:30.480 Cheap, cheaper lead work. 518 00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:32.400 So miserable. 519 00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:38.880 Do you feel it's missing an axe on because those things that those things that pop out of their mouths. 520 00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.760 Like, like, like enormous thermometers are a bit axe on axe on. 521 00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:55.440 I think they were scoped for a really whacked out kind of surreal version of those upper Ledworth scenes, but instead it's sort of mildly menacing old deers shuffling around. 522 00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:57.659 And while that has charms of its own. 523 00:46:57.719 --> 00:46:59.519 I'm not sure it quite gets there. 524 00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:14.699 Yeah, there's a, I've got the, I was telling Nathan before, I've, I've just Googled up the shooting script, which is available online, and the beer where the old age pensioners are attacking the house and Amy and Rory are trapped inside. 525 00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:21.840 Um, I don't know if you remember, there's a shot looking out the window where 2 of them are, 2 of them have got their hands on the TARS. 526 00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:27.659 They're kind of, they look half like they're trying to push it over and half like they're using it to steady themselves. 527 00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:33.900 The shooting script says, but it's an homage to 2001. 528 00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:36.059 Where... 529 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:41.340 Where the aliens were looking at the monolith and sort of gazing up adoringly at it. 530 00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.880 And I thought to myself, I did not get that at all. 531 00:47:44.940 --> 00:48:00.599 If you'd asked me, if you'd asked me, name the, name the bit of Kubra Commage in Amy's choice, I would not have plumbed for when the, um, when the old people are, you know, just, um, are hugging the TARDIS briefly out of a, out of a, looked out of a window. 532 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:01.380 Weird. 533 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.920 I think it is that thing that we say about Simon Nye. 534 00:48:04.980 --> 00:48:11.579 Like there are disadvantages to someone who doesn't quite know what Doctor Who does writing for it. 535 00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:17.699 But I also think that it means that we do something that we've never done before, and I'm absolutely on board with that. 536 00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:27.480 I wish that Russell had written this because you can't see him passing up a setup like murderous old people and not having the most amount of fun with it. 537 00:48:27.539 --> 00:48:32.039 And there's not a whole lot of fun to be gained from those images. 538 00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:37.199 I mean, maybe the one where the doctor sort of chucks that old biddy from the 2nd floor window with a lamp. 539 00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:42.539 I mean, that's about the closest it comes to being outlandish and a bit surreal and shocking. 540 00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:46.320 Yeah, you don't remember Freddie and Daphne doing that in Scooby-Doo? 541 00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:48.420 Although. 542 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.639 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. 543 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:25.320 We'll be back next week to find out how 2020 turned out as we take a trip with the Silurians to the hungry earth. 544 00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:41.039 In the meantime, you can find us where wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flight For Entirety on Facebook, at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, Flight For Entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody into Terra. 545 00:49:41.099 --> 00:49:43.739 Johnny, where can people find you online? 546 00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:51.300 They can find me on Twitter at Johnny Spandrel and read everything I've ever thought about Doctor Who at randomhunas.com. 547 00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:55.260 And Johnny's also contactable if you have any problems with the Shebogans. 548 00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:01.199 Awesome. 549 00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:10.079 Until next time, please remember to hoover the console room thoroughly after your next trip to the Candle Meadows of Carraston Slava. 550 00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:12.420 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 551 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:13.380 Good night. 552 00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:14.280 Good night. 553 00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:16.320 Nighty night, dear listener. 554 00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:26.039 That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Johnny Spandrel, and Richard Stone. 555 00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:27.960 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 556 00:50:28.019 --> 00:50:35.760 This episode, a man who sees his own shadows, was recorded on the 27th of February 2021 and released on the 25th of April. 557 00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:53.340 For those of you dismayed that the last 2 episodes of Flight 3 entirety have focussed on the details of the regular characters' romantic relationships, we would like to reassure you that normal service will resume next week with monsters with space names wearing rubber suits. 558 00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:54.420 We'll see you then. 559 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:01.079 Yeah, you don't remember Freddy and Daphne doing that in Scooby-Doo. 560 00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:08.280 Although, Well, you know, if they got mini from the end of time, I cheerfully crack her over the head with a 2 button. 561 00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:10.019 That is not staying in. 562 00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:11.880 That's so agious. 563 00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:12.719 I'm right here. 564 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:18.119 I reckon I've got an out there, so I might wind it up. 565 00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:19.500 We're going to... 566 00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:22.139 Did we miss any extraordinary things to say about this? 567 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:24.300 I'm trying to think about extraordinary things. 568 00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:24.960 Nah. 569 00:51:25.019 --> 00:51:30.420 No, I think it's thin, but I think it's thin. 570 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:33.539 I want to know why Johnny likes it so much because we all think you're daft. 571 00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:34.980 No, no, I like it. 572 00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:36.599 I didn't like it originally. 573 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:41.039 No, but seriously, Johnny, can you talk about why you think it's one of the best to this season? 574 00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:55.980 I find, um, I, it might be me being slightly unfair to other episodes in the season, but I always find there's something that kind of irritates me about each of them. you know, in a way that I can't get past. 575 00:51:56.039 --> 00:52:13.920 And particularly in the 1st half of the season, less so in the 2nd half of the season, but this, I guess I like this because, um, I, I can't find anything in it that, that, Makes me, um, Makes me dislike it. 576 00:52:13.980 --> 00:52:15.840 You know, that makes me that I can't get over it. 577 00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:30.659 You know, I think that it's, it's the, it's the novelty of the concept, it's the wittiness of the writing, it's the warmth of the performances, and it's probably got a lot to do with Toby Jones in that protagonist role too. 578 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.800 For me, it all hangs together nicely in a way that a lot of the upper episodes. 579 00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:36.000 Didn't. 580 00:52:36.059 --> 00:52:42.420 But I'm getting the sense that maybe I'm having a very different reaction to this season to to the ones you guys are having. 581 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:48.659 Well, from what you just said there, I wouldn't fight your characterisation of the episode very hard there. 582 00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.880 I think there's actually a lot to be said for. 583 00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:54.059 I didn't warm to it, but, you know, I'm on board with a lot of what you said. 584 00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:57.900 All right, I think I'm going to do an outro. 585 00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:00.239 I think that's actually not a bad place to stop. 586 00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:00.659 That was good. 587 00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:01.260 Thanks, Richard. 588 00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:05.639 That elicited a good kind of final speech. 589 00:53:05.699 --> 00:53:06.539 All right? 590 00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.199 Here goes. 591 00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:12.239 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.