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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:59:39

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Hello, dear listen, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast, which can no longer remember the night when we bought one last glass of the house read, with a painting worth 1000000 US dollars.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Fiona.

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So I'm a vineyard and a very sad, poignant, and quite beautiful moment in history and in this show for this one.

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Well, it's time once more for our annual celebrity, historical, and this time the celebrity is none other than Richard Curtis, the man who made World War I 5 slappingly hilarious in Black Adder goes forth, and who turned Christmas into an insufferable ordeal in love actually.

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So let's see how he gets on with history's greatest artist, probably, in Vincent and the doctor.

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You know, he also wrote all the Parker and Penelope scenes for that much enjoyed 2003 Thunderbirds movie, too, don't you?

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Don't hold that against him.

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No, they're the best parts of it.

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They were actually going to do a spinoff.

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George Harrison loved it so much.

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He was going to do a Parker and Penelope film, but the studios wouldn't pick it up.

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Damn it Where were?

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So, Fiona, are you a big fan of love, actually?

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I do enjoy it, but I'm not a big fan, no.

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Yeah, I've read in preparation for this podcast, a hilarious article, which I'll fling in the show notes about how truly horrific it is and how it's about white middle class men being entitled around various ladies, including Emma Thompson.

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A few other people have said that, but not Emma Thompson.

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What did you think of it, Fiona?

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Well, at the time I just watched it as a fun movie, but I do think poor Emma, like that's just the heartbreaking moment in it.

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I think, um, I always find all the stuff with Hugh Grant a bit tedious.

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But yeah, Emma's little substory was was quite heartbreaking.

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Um, if we're talking Richard Curtis films, I much prefer about time to love actually, which is the film that he may just after having written Vincent and the doctor.

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Ah.

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And it's about a character who discovers that he can travel backwards and forwards in his own timeline.

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And so he, he keeps doing over his life to try and get the, you know, like a life that he's happy with.

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And in the end, he would, well, I'm not.

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In the end, he joins the 1st order and betrays them to the resistance.

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It becomes Ginger Hitler.

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And surprise, surprise, Bill Nice.

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So did he do the tall guy?

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So Emma Thompson and Jeff Goldblum.

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I think it's a sort of very early, very, it's a very early Richard Curtis thing, and it includes a superb kind of take on how awful Rowan Atkinson is as a person, played by actual Rowan Atkinson, which I thought was pretty brave.

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So, uh, it's it's pretty good.

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He's um, he is a strange choice as a Doctor Who writer, I think.

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Well, it worked.

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We did have this earlier in the season where we had Simon Nye writing Amy's choice, you know, someone who's new to Doctor Who and wasn't necessarily a sort of Doctor Who-ish kind of writer.

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And I think that it means that the show does things that it might not otherwise do.

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And, you know, it's something that Russell had tried to do.

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Um, you know, there was always that sort of Stephen Fry script that was going to happen in Russell's, uh, yeah.

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But Moffatt actually brings it off here.

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And I think it's sort of super successful.

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I think also possibly the reason why it's successful is because Richard Curtis had had this idea many years before.

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And how much of it was the idea because I didn't Moffatt rewrite a lot of the monster stuff.

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He came to him with the idea.

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Okay for like, well, you know, like the basic idea, like Vincent and the doctor.

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From memory, a lot of the dialogue was rewritten.

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And he asked Moffatt to be quite brutally honest and Moffatt was his code.

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And then he never came back.

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I think, I mean, there is Richard courtesy dialogue and there's a Richard courtesy sort of sensibility.

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There's a sort of, there's an upper middle classness to its concerns, I think.

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So we're in an art gallery in Paris.

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If only we were in that art gallery in Paris. one of my favourite art galleries in the world.

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Except there's no, the Van Gogh room looks nothing like that octahedron, but I love the Muse d'Orsee.

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They could have gone to Amsterdam.

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Yeah, yeah, Gael Andy redid it.

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It's a beautiful early 19th century train station.

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Museato, say. beautiful space and they are actually in it when they're running around looking up at the roof, but then they run away to a studio with populated by Bill Nye as queen of the art world.

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You said they're not outside it though.

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No, that's not screen.

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Yeah.

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So they did, I think they sent a 2nd unit to there to do the sort of, you know, establishing gallery shots and things, but most of it is the National Museum in Cardiff.

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Ah, okay. which they've used over and over again.

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That's what it is then, and it works so well because the establishing shots are of the roof, and I just, you know, your brain reads that as, oh, yeah, you're actually in there because there are stairs like the one that they walk up to with the black statue.

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Yeah.

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Okay, clarify, isn't it?

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Very clever.

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Yeah, it's quite well done, I think.

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And then the rest of it's shot in Tregear as part of the block where they do vampires of Venice.

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So the village.

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It was very exciting to be back in Port Marion.

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I expected to see, I expected to see old sly boots running about with his gold mask and headless chickens.

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There was a lot about chickens, again.

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Yeah, yeah, chickens in these stories.

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I mean, how do we feel about Van Gogh just personally?

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It's perfect placement for what happened with Amy and Rory.

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And I think it actually touches very lightly on the depth of the man.

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Obviously because it's family TV.

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You can't go too much.

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Tony Curran does a beautiful job, but we are doing the accent, aren't we?

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I do love that that sort of lampshading.

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Oh, you're Dutch, like me.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yes, yes.

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It really peeves me.

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I don't know what Fiona thinks about it.

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Like to know, but I just, look, maybe it's because I grew up with RP and I just remember everyone, but there's a reason RP was required is because you don't have to turn on the subtitles. which I have to do for Karen.

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Because they throw their lines away.

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I have to do it for Matt too.

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Young people, they mumble.

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I don't have that issue at all.

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I find them both very easy to understand.

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The only actor.

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I ha- have had a problem with in the past was really Sylvester and that was a case of getting your ear in.

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And then once you kind of got used to him, it was okay.

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But initially, there was a lot of, Lines that and I guess too, like because we watched, it's not just a single viewing for a lot of episodes.

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So you might miss it on the 1st go and get it on the 2nd go and The 10th go and.

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But yeah, with Karen.

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I've never I've never had a problem.

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And same with Matt, but um, Yeah, that's something that's never really occurred to me.

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I think the issue I have with Matt's dialogue is not the inability to understand his accent, but how fast he speaks.

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Yeah, I mean, he has a sort of tendency to throw lines away.

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But, I mean, I think the decision to let Tony Curran use his own accents the right one, because we've seen actors struggle with kind of accents, and I know that, you know, British actors do accents, they're very good at it.

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But it also kind of gives him a kind of earthiness or something, you know, like that.

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There's, There's a sort of strange quality to Vincent as he's portrayed here, um, because even though he's an artist, I don't know, there's something about the the rough way that he lives, the, how excluded he is, you know, how different he is from everyone else. you know, the way he's treated.

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And have you ever heard an Antwerp accent?

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I think too, in a Doctor Who context.

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It's the last thing that you really care about.

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Like, you just, it wasn't until the, actually, until he had the line where saying, oh, you Dutch as well.

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It actually hadn't occurred to me.

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It just I'd just been watching the story and enjoying it.

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So, yeah, I hadn't even sort of thought, oh, he's not speaking in a Dutch accent because I think you're so used to going to alien planets and everybody speaks in English in um, received pronunciation.

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You, um, yeah, you just sort of, I think that's the last thing that really I'm, I was sort of looking for.

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I was just so engrossed in the story by that point.

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So probably if it had been a feature film, you might have said, well, hey, but I think in a Doctor Who, where it's more about, just let's have a fun story.

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I think I think it's fine.

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And we 1st see him actually in that scene in the cafe and that cafe is actually something that he paints.

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It's actually not... very famous painting and it's beautifully realised, yeah.

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Did you get that too, Fiona?

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It's the same with the set of his bedroom.

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It's just extraordinary.

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Yeah, and that was one of the joys of the whole episode.

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Most of that cafe was built on location by the production team.

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They found something that looked about right, but they built the awning.

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They built the platform, they found the right chairs, they did the right, they changed the windows of the cafe and lit it. like to be picture perfect.

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I think that the decision to like recreate a bunch of the paintings, you know, like they recreate the straw hat self-portrait.

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They recreate that church, they find a church for him to paint.

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Like, I think that's a pretty good decision, but it does.

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There's a sort of theme park approach to this like there is to every historical.

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I think it starts that way, but because of the subject matter.

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They, you know, like they do start doing the, the shtick, the, oh, look, wow.

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Sunflowers, um, it's kind of veering towards the same sort of, what I think are mistakes, um, in things like Shakespeare code.

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I, you know, I don't like that approach to history in a dog story.

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But when they start to delve into his his depression and his isolation and then they have those beautiful scenes with, uh, him noticing that, that Amy is sad and she's crying without realising. that scene.

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Then it becomes something more, I think.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think so.

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I mean, you know, the bedroom was somewhere else entirely.

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Um, he'd been painting sunflowers for some years, you know, that cafe. was in Arles, you know, just north of Paris.

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Like there's, they collapse his history a bit.

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But, you know, there's a reasonable amount of actual concrete information about his life, and some of it's delivered in that 1st speech, the Bill Nye speech in the 1st scene, where we just get a little bit of a summary for the children at home of why Vincent's important.

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I think that's because uh, Curtis, although he was already familiar with Van Gogh quite a lot, he still went and read a 200 page biography of him in preparation, which is more work than he's done for a lot of his own film.

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Yes.

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So he probably had a lot of that at his fingertips.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So just it was a bit like a Van Gogh 101, but Just with my own children who at the time they were about sort of roughly 10 and 8 and they wouldn't have had, you know, a detailed knowledge of who he was.

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But it just piqued their interest so that they did after watching it.

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They did want to know more.

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And 5 years later, I was actually fortunate enough to take them to the UK and we went to the National Gallery and um, they were super interested to see his paintings.

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And I've actually got a really cute photo of camera next to the sunflowers.

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Which is beautiful and yeah, and he was like really keen to get his photo taken with the, um, of course it didn't say for Amy on the real version.

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We did share. disappointing.

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How did they react emotionally, because this is some really, this is big stuff, but I have a great faith in children's understanding that far more fluidly and far more directly than we do as adults, and I'm really interested in what a 10 and 8 year olds who've been brought up, I imagine, although, you know, I don't know what you like with your horses, but I imagine to be honest and speak the truth.

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I know you've got discipline is also required.

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But do you, how did they respond?

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Were they?

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You get you get the blunt truth out of children, don't you?

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Yeah, absolutely do.

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But to be honest, it's just so long ago when we did that initial viewing that I can't recall and I was probably too busy sobbing my eyes out to really care what they were thinking at the time because I was... one, isn't it?

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I hadn't sobbed since, since RTD and Rose leaving, you know, that as I did with this one.

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I had a little cry this morning when I was rewatching it in preparation for the podcast, I was crying for the last 10 minutes of the episode.

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What I love about that today.

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It's Doctor Who fulfilling its educational remit.

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Yeah.

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You know, way that is not banging you over the head.

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I think that the decision, in fact, to ignore sort of to collapse a lot of the stuff into that last sort of 6 months of Vincent's life is the right decision because you get to show the important things, you know, like sunflowers are introduced, that scene with Amy, with all the sunflowers outside for breakfast on that day.

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And then he punctures her sort of excitement by saying, oh, I don't really like them.

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Yeah, how they're quite disgusting.

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Yeah, but I think that that's Curtis then getting the chance to actually do a reading of why he chose those flowers, you know, that he finds them disgusting.

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They are on the border of life and death.

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There's something earthy about them.

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They fascinated him.

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Yeah. than he was in love with their beauty.

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He was painting a life painting of a flower, basically.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And so I think that I think that that was worth doing just to get those images in and to get that stuff talked about and the fact that he'd painted heaps of sunflowers, you know, in Paris and whatever and all years before doesn't actually matter.

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And anyone who's sufficiently motivated to learn about Vincent from watching the episode will go back and and, you know, find out kind of what the deal was.

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So, I, like I thought that I thought that the Shakespeare code fell down a bit because it didn't engage with any of Shakespeare's concerns at all and just basically was doing the shtick and dumping the quotes in.

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But I think this does do that.

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And it was quite different from the what we know about the real Shakespeare.

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It was kind of like that rock star version, whereas this is trying to adhere more closely to reality, but you're not feeling the whole way through that you're being slapped around the head by it, whereas it's not like a massive info dump and you're not being...

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You don't feel like you're having history ram down your throat and the whole sunflower scene was worth doing just for the fact that visually it was beautiful. like that Amy and her red with all the yellow and the bright sunshine.

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I mean, that's a gorgeous image.

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And her smiling.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Just yeah, just beautiful.

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Is that before after he says about this, I think that's just before they go for the walk and he said why you, you know, that you're crying. you're why you say sad.

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And that's a nice contrast to that as well.

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I just think that was a really important scene.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that scene is unusual because it's the only one that really touches on the arc.

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Um, you know, it could be the doctor and any companion, really.

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And Amy, you know, she's sexually confident and she's redhaired and stuff like that.

196
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So she sort of fits in.

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He wants to have lots of babies.

198
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Yes, yeah.

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It's the only one that's about the Amy and Rory.

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Remember, I've got red hair, okay?

201
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.640
Hi, Fiona.

202
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:29.220
I don't want to have lots of babies.

203
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.660
T was plenty.

204
00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:36.180
But, I mean, that's the only scene that touches on the wider arc.

205
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.420
And so last week, Rory dies.

206
00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:40.259
Yeah.

207
00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:51.299
And we get a, we get a little hint, don't we, where Amy is suspicious of the doctor because the doctor's being so nice to her and taking her to the, to the gallery.

208
00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:54.299
And then we get this where she's crying.

209
00:19:54.299 --> 00:20:03.059
And it's actually going to be incredibly important because this is sort of paving the way to the idea that memory is important.

210
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:04.500
And we'll talk more about that.

211
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.740
We're kind of getting ahead of ourselves, but we'll talk more about that in the finale.

212
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.140
But I don't think we can not remark on it.

213
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:15.599
It just touches very lightly on the arc and contributes to it very slightly.

214
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:26.700
But it's clever too, because it's one that if you had just watching this as a one off and you didn't know that Rory had died, it wouldn't be like a massive jar.

215
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:34.799
Yeah, you wouldn't be going like, you could go, oh, there must have been something happen, but it doesn't really detract from your overall enjoyment of the episode.

216
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:41.940
It's not kind of like you had to previously have watched all these episodes to to be able to follow what's going on.

217
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:43.980
Yeah.

218
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:45.180
Yeah, I think that's right.

219
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:50.400
And I think it's probably a function of getting someone big like Richard Curtesy and do you know what I mean?

220
00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:53.759
You're not going to sit down and map out the minutiae of the season to it.

221
00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:54.599
Yeah.

222
00:20:54.660 --> 00:21:14.339
Yeah, so it's another bit about you not feeling like you're being slapped around the head with stuff and um, And later where he just sort of says like he just says Rory, you know, again, that's quite subtle, really, it's not kind of, doesn't make, it's just that little gentle reminder to the audience and going, oh, he's not here.

223
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:24.359
So if you're your viewer like us, you sort of go, oh, Rory, but if you weren't watching, you would just go, oh, yeah, whatever, Rory, you know, you wouldn't be it.

224
00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:25.500
It wouldn't be a big distraction.

225
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:27.000
So, yeah.

226
00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:55.319
And I just love to that sort of subtle body language where when Vincent is talking to Amy and they're walking along and they're obviously having like a very emotional moment and the doctor is just looking more and more uncomfortable and guilty in the background and and he's sort of, you know, I think he says something along like, oh, moving on now, you know, just, but yeah, just the look on his face where he's just going, oh, I don't this, we don't want to go here kind of thing.

227
00:21:55.380 --> 00:22:03.599
And at the start where you said about too, in the gallery where, um, yeah, that the whole, oh, you're being so nice to me.

228
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:13.859
I just think that says wonders about their relationship as well, the fact that they've got that slightly bickering and it's like, it's weird, you're being really nice to me, like what's going on?

229
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:16.140
Do you want, you know, normally, like, what do you want?

230
00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:17.160
What do you want kind of thing?

231
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:24.900
And again, like, when sort of she's not looking at him, you can see him sort of just looking that little bit uncomfortable.

232
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:32.759
But the whole body language between them and and um, Yeah, the whole like on-screen chemistry is wonderful between the 2 of them.

233
00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:34.680
I think they really do work well together.

234
00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:48.720
You know the starry night scene?

235
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.380
Oh, yes.

236
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:50.940
Where they're lying there.

237
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:58.680
And like, we can, we can talk about that in more depth, but their physical closeness.

238
00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:10.259
You know, they're all holding hands and all 3 of them together, like there's a kind of physical warmth between Matt and Vincent as well.

239
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:19.319
Yeah, the holding hands thing is not awkward in any way, but the 3 of them are lying there and they're really, really physically close to one another.

240
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:20.099
Yeah.

241
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:27.240
There is something very sweet and sad about how close Vincent becomes to the doctor.

242
00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:29.160
There's a really, really good moment.

243
00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:35.700
I think, where he says, you know, we've fought monsters together to the doctor, but on my own.

244
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:40.259
I don't think I'll do quite so well. that I think works terrifically well.

245
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:41.339
Yeah.

246
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:49.799
The other thing I think is really special is that line where after the, the monster has accidentally been slain.

247
00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:55.440
That there's so much compassion for starters for the whole death of the monster.

248
00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:58.380
It's not just like, oh, oops, we, you know.

249
00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:02.700
Sorry, monster, you're dead, which does happen in a lot of episodes.

250
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:07.680
It's kind of like, you know, somebody casually dies and it's like, oh, well, moving on.

251
00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:22.319
But there's so much compassion from all the characters and that whole line of, sometimes winning doesn't, um, I'm not, I'm not quoting it directly, but the whole, it's not fun to win, you know, you've won, but it doesn't feel good.

252
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:32.220
And, I think that sort of is a bit with the whole Vincent's a thing as well, you know, that just like, Not everything is good in life.

253
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.539
There are these painful moments that we all go through.

254
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.819
Have they even won, I think, is the question there.

255
00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:43.140
They haven't won.

256
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.880
Nobody's won out of the situation.

257
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:54.539
This poor animal who was in pain and lonely and blind and and, you know, was, you know, lashing out because it was conceded, yeah.

258
00:24:54.599 --> 00:25:11.400
Yeah, that lashic, that, that actually that was the 1st part rewatching it that I started to cry because that whole line of Vincent's about like, oh, it was lashing out and that's what the, how the kids treat me and throw stones at me because they don't understand and.

259
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:14.400
Yeah, lashing out because you're hurting.

260
00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:16.500
So sad.

261
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:20.099
I think that monster is really interesting.

262
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.359
Don't you?

263
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:23.940
I think there's something symbolically about it.

264
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.859
About birdie num-nums.

265
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:28.259
It's very Peter Sellers.

266
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.259
Well, it's also very Monty Python, isn't it?

267
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:32.880
It's actually, no, it's very Spike Milligan.

268
00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:35.640
Do you remember Spike Milliken's drawings of enormous parrot?

269
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:41.099
in profile in his children's book of milliganimals and silly verse for kids.

270
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.960
I think it's only Monty Python at the end of that scene once it's died.

271
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.660
But this is a dead parrot.

272
00:25:49.079 --> 00:26:05.519
So in some way, it and its race represent the human race, that we're cruel and brutal and we abandon, you know, hurt members or members that can't keep up and just leave them to suffer.

273
00:26:05.579 --> 00:26:10.619
And that's what's happened to Vincent and Vincent makes that comparison himself.

274
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.880
So the Crefeus, uh, Tories.

275
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:31.200
They human beings. we all do it Also, I think that the blindness of the crofeas, you know, the crofeas, which is lashing out at people and is blind and is explicitly compared to the people persecuting Vincent.

276
00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:35.220
It has one less sense than we do.

277
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:43.680
And there is something about Vincent's ability to see that this episode kind of plays with.

278
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.359
Yeah.

279
00:26:45.420 --> 00:27:04.740
But also, do you, do you think that, the, um, because you know how the, the doctor does have a line saying that they're really vicious and they're, they're killers and that's why we need to stop this monster because it will just, you know, go around the village and and kill everybody indiscriminately.

280
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:14.160
But then, and obviously that girl, and it's wonderful how it is off camera because obviously she was very, very brutally murdered.

281
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:21.779
And the reaction of the doctor to that is, and Amy, all the characters, it's great because he's not just like, oh, there's a dead body.

282
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:29.220
Like he, you can see that he's genuinely going, oh, this is awful and this poor girl, like he's feeling genuine remorse that this has happened.

283
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:49.920
But do you think it was a case of like, she was in the way so he, the monster did kill her or she literally, was in the way and he didn't see her and accidentally, like, crushed her or, because we're not quite sure whether she's been ripped apart or just kind of stepped on and squashed or something.

284
00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:53.940
Isn't there a line about it picking off the week?

285
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.339
I don't remember, but there is a line.

286
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.200
I mean, I think it is brutal.

287
00:27:58.259 --> 00:28:11.039
And that's why I've kind of resisted any reading that sees the monster as Vincent himself because although there's a sense in which, no, so there's a tendency for the crofeus to abandon their week.

288
00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:14.400
And so that makes us think of Vincent.

289
00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:21.059
But I don't think you can read the monster as Vincent just because of the monster's cruelty.

290
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:27.420
But the monster does give Vincent something to identify with.

291
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:36.539
And the reason that Vincent can see it, I think, is because he's also abandoned and excluded in some way.

292
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:38.640
Yeah, very much so.

293
00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:44.400
The dualities of the id monster, because we're back to forbidden planet and the tempest.

294
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:46.079
Oh, there's a lot of Shakespeare in this, actually.

295
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:49.440
More so than the Shakespeare code. much more so.

296
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:57.599
But yeah, because we're talking about fraud emotions and people working off each other, but yes, the centre of this is actually Amy.

297
00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:06.000
In fact, most of the season, I wonder how deliberate it is of Stephen Moffat to make Amy, the centre of every story, much as Rose was season one.

298
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.359
This is another Amy story, and it's Amy's fraughtness.

299
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:18.839
So we have the doctor being her, oh, we're back to sex in the city of the 4 the 4 girls being actually the 4 positions of the ego, 4 positions of the consciousness.

300
00:29:18.900 --> 00:29:19.140
Yeah.

301
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:25.799
So we've got the doctor as Amy Super Ego in control, but not.

302
00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:28.259
We've got Vincent as her broken heart.

303
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.319
And then we've got the monster as how she's actually feeling.

304
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.259
And then they're all just playing out.

305
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.359
So she always ends up being Samantha, of course.

306
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:37.859
But just playing out.

307
00:29:37.980 --> 00:29:42.240
But just playing out the, you know, maybe that's why this is powerful.

308
00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:44.640
I wonder if Curtis was thinking along those lines.

309
00:29:44.700 --> 00:30:07.200
I'd like to think he was, because there isn't a better cypher for a story like this than the absolute beauty and tragedy, um, the beauty and the pain of of an artist who paints their own impossibility to live, the impossibility of dealing with this much emotion and every painting.

310
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:08.160
That's why he's worked.

311
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:13.380
He's, you know, he could say, critics would say technically he's not the greatest of the impressionists.

312
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:16.680
It, it, he doesn't have the structure of the formalism.

313
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.180
He doesn't, it's so fast.

314
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.440
It's all intuitive painting.

315
00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:21.839
But that's why people respond to it.

316
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:23.759
It has the most heart.

317
00:30:23.819 --> 00:30:26.400
Most heart, exactly, and the most expression.

318
00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.900
There is no filter.

319
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.140
It is how he feels and children pick up on that.

320
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:37.079
You said your children were young teenagers when they were completely drawn to his work in London.

321
00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:41.160
It's this, I think I think everyone feels that everyone who is in touch with their own feelings.

322
00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:46.740
So that's why it's the strongest episode for me of the season and perhaps for a very long time.

323
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:56.460
And really, Bill Nye is therefore the voice of the conscious, the conscious narrator in this, just by his presence and his metre.

324
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:05.339
And then there's that moment in the end where his childhood hero, he gets to hug and then the conscious adult self has to step in because we have to stay in control.

325
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:07.380
And at the same thing happens with Amy.

326
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:08.880
She ends up having to stay in control.

327
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:37.799
So there's that beautiful moment in the gallery when the doctor asks, uh, Dr. Black, Bill Nye's character to describe, how, how important, like, Vincent is in, in history, and, and he describes him and, and it just focusses on, on Vincent sort of feeling all these emotions.

328
00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:48.960
Then he goes to hug him and and thank him and then they walk off back to the TARDIS and Dr. Black kind of has a moment of, Oh, oh.

329
00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:51.299
And then he goes, no, it walks off.

330
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.380
It's just beautiful.

331
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.279
I actually think too, Richard Curtesy is funny and writes comedies.

332
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:58.259
And I think that that's properly funny as well.

333
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:04.799
Like that scene, risks being overwrought, I think. you know, the pop song and the whole kind of thing.

334
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:06.779
Like, I think it does risk being overall.

335
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:07.920
But I fall for it every time.

336
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:09.420
Like it still works.

337
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:20.039
And he undercuts it because remember that Amy, when she says goodbye to Vincent for the 1st time, tells him to trim his beard before he goes to kiss someone.

338
00:32:20.099 --> 00:32:27.240
And then Vincent comes forward into the future and kisses Bill Nye twice and then says, sorry about the beard.

339
00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:37.079
Um, and then just, just that wonderful moment where Bill Nye thinks, 0 my god, I've just met Vincent and then goes, no, no, no, no.

340
00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:40.500
You know, I'm a serious, grown-up, obviously, that can't possibly have happened.

341
00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:42.839
But again, it's sort of played for laughs.

342
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.940
And he kind of has that sway on his feet where he's sort of like, whoa, you know.

343
00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:05.099
You know, this episode, uh, Curtis wanted to call it the eyes that see the darkness.

344
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:08.640
Right, which... is a terrible title.

345
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:15.180
It is a terrible time. very descriptive of, it describes, it describes what happens in the story.

346
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:24.180
You know, he sees the darkness in the in the creature, he sees, you know, the light and dark in the world.

347
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:43.740
So there is one thing that kind of that annoys me a little bit about it, which is that, and maybe it works, like, I don't know enough about Vincent's life to know exactly what actually happens here.

348
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:57.180
But just that sort of constant, the trope of the struggling artist, you know, one of the ways that we justify our own sort of poor treatment of artists is to suggest that all true art comes through sort of struggle or something like that.

349
00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.339
Yeah, and so...

350
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.019
Yeah, yeah that's right.

351
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:07.019
And so that that sort of insistence that what Vincent is doing is turning his pain into beauty and stuff.

352
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:08.820
Like, yeah, okay.

353
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:23.039
It does seem like a, a, uh, like a simplistic reading of what's going on or an appeal to those tropes, and that's just one of the things that I just find slightly. you know, slightly off-putting about it.

354
00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:35.159
But I do think that the way that it handles his illness is really interesting and thoughtful, um, like really good.

355
00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:41.639
I think it's still the only Doctor Who story to ever have a, um, a helpline message.

356
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:42.719
Oh, at the end.

357
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:43.619
Oh, yeah.

358
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:48.539
Well, because they mentioned killing himself twice, and I think they may have had to do it in that.

359
00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:50.099
Like, I think legally you're obliged.

360
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:50.579
Yeah, yeah.

361
00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:58.980
There's a moment at the very, very end where Amy is disappointed that they didn't do any good.

362
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:00.599
They didn't make a difference.

363
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:01.739
Oh, that scene.

364
00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:03.840
It's so beautiful, isn't it?

365
00:35:03.900 --> 00:35:06.420
Because it's what the doctor says when he's hugging her.

366
00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:13.679
And it's, you know, Matt is super awkward and can't tell if someone's pregnant and like is super weird.

367
00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:15.000
Do you know what I mean?

368
00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:18.539
Like he, he looks like he doesn't understand people.

369
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:33.000
But that speech about a life being a pile of good things and bad things and them not cancelling one another out and look, we didn't fix his mental illness and we were never going to, but we made his life a little better for a bit.

370
00:35:33.059 --> 00:35:36.179
I think that's lovely. you know, that's terrific.

371
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.820
And the other thing is where, yeah, yeah.

372
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:44.099
And the other thing is where he kneels down before Vincent starts to talk depression.

373
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.940
You know, depression is very complicated thing and Vincent just says, shut up.

374
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.280
I'm trying to work with doing this one.

375
00:35:50.340 --> 00:35:51.360
That's brilliant. love that.

376
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:56.039
But that's that whole thing of balancing the darkness with the comedy side.

377
00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:58.139
Like, it's just that lovely little balance.

378
00:35:58.199 --> 00:35:58.679
Yeah.

379
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:04.079
How, like, um, James said earlier in the in the scenes with um, Dr. Black.

380
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:08.460
Um, how there's great emotion in there.

381
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:19.380
But there's also just those little touches of humour as well and the whole, you know, looking like when he walked off and his glasses are falling off his face and he's slightly looking like he's had a bit to drink.

382
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:47.579
Um, but his line, he said as well, um, Like he said, like the most beloved, and I think that whole thing of Vincent feeling that he didn't have much love in his life, you know, he was shunned, and now he's got somebody saying, well, people did love you, you were loved, and you are special, and yeah, that that's sort of what really on the, the viewing yesterday really sort of struck me.

383
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:54.360
And the bit with, um, You know, that Nathan was talking about with the doctor and Amy where he's comforting her.

384
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.239
Like he, he doesn't hug her.

385
00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:02.940
He actually like gets in, has a cuddle, like he's really, it's not just a whole token.

386
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.260
I'm going to stick my arms around you.

387
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:09.179
It's really like about comforting her and really trying to make her feel better.

388
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:20.579
And he still does have that little bit of like, kind of geeky awkwardness, but it's at the same time, it's just so compassionate and just such a wonderful thing to say and.

389
00:37:21.059 --> 00:37:30.300
If you do that whole game, like, let's stick another doctor in the story, like, could you imagine like that working with another doctor?

390
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:44.940
Um, I think Tom would just kind of try and leave the room as soon as possible or maybe like just give her a dirty hanky or a pile of jelly babies and then try and like get away as quickly as... could have done it.

391
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.280
If Tom could have done it, Pat could have done it.

392
00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:51.840
Yeah, but I mean, he wasn't really even a hugger, let alone a cuddler.

393
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.079
Yeah, Silv, I think, could have called...

394
00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:57.420
This would work as a silver story perfectly.

395
00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:58.920
Yeah, that's not a bad.

396
00:37:59.099 --> 00:37:59.940
That's not a bad take.

397
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:18.300
I think, you know, like what I was thinking of recently was in, Can you hear me in the Jody episode where Graham tries to speak to her about his feelings around possible recurrence of his cancer and she wanders off and says, oh, I'm going to go and play with some controls here on the target.

398
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:19.139
That really annoys me.

399
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.679
Yeah, and I thought, I thought, you know, you can be...

400
00:38:22.739 --> 00:38:29.039
Yeah, yeah, but I thought you can be geeky and awkward, but, you know, actually care.

401
00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:45.480
Yeah, it'll be wise, you know, like the doctors, the doctor is old, and even though he can't tell if someone's pregnant or how old people are or whatever, he's still wise, you know, and so it's nice for him to be able to say something, you know, just something perfect.

402
00:38:45.539 --> 00:38:47.519
I think that speech is incredibly good.

403
00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:49.320
No, absolutely.

404
00:38:49.380 --> 00:39:05.159
And I think that was, yeah, back to, I mean, just we don't want to concentrate on Jody in this episode, but that was a perfect opportunity to just kind of humanise her and because geeks are still people, as we all know, because I put my hand up to being a geek.

405
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:11.400
And um, yeah, they still have emotions and they still care and feel compassion and.

406
00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:21.659
All these big emotions and harking back um, to what Richard was saying about like how how would children react to watching this episode?

407
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:23.639
The whole thing about being excluded.

408
00:39:23.699 --> 00:39:36.300
I mean, there's not many children who, you know, even at that younger age who can't relate to that feeling of being an outsider and having people exclude them and how horrible a feeling that is.

409
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:42.960
And I mean, everybody would have been through that to some degree in their life and knows what it feels like.

410
00:39:43.019 --> 00:39:48.780
So, I think that probably would be a level where children could have jumped on board.

411
00:39:48.840 --> 00:40:01.980
Um, they might not understand, you know, the big feelings of depression and all that, but they would understand that feeling of, um, people not wanting to be your friend or include you or talk to you or, you know, not fitting in.

412
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:09.179
So, Yeah, that probably is a good, a clever slant on on the whole depression and madness.

413
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:14.400
And as the doctor, I love that the doctor said, you're not mad as well.

414
00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:15.780
There's that line at the church.

415
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:23.159
You're not mad when he starts to do the serious conversation about depression and then he's like bugger off. kind of thing.

416
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:27.119
Um, I like to call that Matt Spleening.

417
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.480
Yeah.

418
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:47.039
I tell a Vincent story?

419
00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:48.059
Yes, please.

420
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:53.820
So, I have been to Amsterdam a couple of times where there's the Van Gogh Museum.

421
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:54.840
Oh, that museum.

422
00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:01.679
Yeah, and I've been there twice and the 2nd time I was by myself and it was 2008.

423
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:19.800
Calvin was at home and I was travelling on my own and I spent the day just wandering around the museum and looking at as much as I could and reading, obviously, the biographical material that was available to contextualise each of the paintings.

424
00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:29.940
And I think the collection is actually organised by location, you know, like the period of time Wednesday and all, Wednesday and over, when is he, you know, in Paris and so on.

425
00:41:30.059 --> 00:41:32.579
And I spoke to Calvin afterwards.

426
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:39.480
And he asked me how I was, and I said that I was feeling sad.

427
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:48.539
And he said why, and I said, because, and, and like this is what, 2 years before this episode comes out?

428
00:41:48.659 --> 00:42:02.699
And it was because of that barrier, that barrier in time, that means that, that after your death, you no longer have the opportunity to discover what your reception is going to be like.

429
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:13.500
And so the very fact that he died with out, ever imagining that anyone would care anything about his paintings or even remember who he was.

430
00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:23.460
You know, that he had sold one painting in his lifetime and now there were art galleries just full of his paintings and they were super famous and beloved.

431
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:27.300
And it just, it, it properly made me sad.

432
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:38.099
And so that final scene is absurdly over the top wishful film and it doesn't really belong in the Doctor Who universe at all in a way.

433
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:39.840
The episode's over.

434
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:41.699
They're walking back to the TARDIS.

435
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.539
They've said goodbye to Vincent and the doctor just says, oh, no, screw it.

436
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.719
Let's fix this terrible injustice and bring him forward.

437
00:42:49.019 --> 00:42:56.760
And, and, and, you know, all of that stuff about time and, you know, like not violating the laws of time and all of that.

438
00:42:56.820 --> 00:42:57.360
Who cares?

439
00:42:57.420 --> 00:42:58.440
I'm Richard Curtis.

440
00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:00.840
I don't give a crap about your stupid science fiction rules.

441
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:01.320
Yeah.

442
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:06.960
I'm just doing something that should have been done that should, should have been possible.

443
00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:10.800
And I think that that's why I cry in that final scene.

444
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:16.199
Um, and, you know, like, um, current's performance is so good.

445
00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:18.780
Like so brilliant in it.

446
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.719
It's, it's just tremendous.

447
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:28.320
It's over the top and schmaltzy and indefensible in all sorts of ways, but I can't possibly hate it.

448
00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:29.280
I think it's magnificent.

449
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:30.659
It is magnificent.

450
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:35.159
I don't even know why we would need to say schmaltzy, it's truth.

451
00:43:35.219 --> 00:43:35.820
Yeah.

452
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:37.679
Not a big fan of the song.

453
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:50.760
Well, the song is a little, perhaps a little over the top, but I don't, I don't find that it detracts from, the emotion of the scene.

454
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:53.159
I don't think it really adds to anything either.

455
00:43:53.219 --> 00:43:54.480
I don't think you need the song.

456
00:43:54.719 --> 00:44:05.760
But the emotion of the scene speaks for itself and I, I mean, I just, I've said a number of times to the people in this room and on the phone.

457
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:10.019
I love this story more than practically any other doctor history and history.

458
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:16.679
It's not perfect, but it's the emotional core of it that makes me love it so much.

459
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:24.659
I grew up, you know, uh, with a mother who was obsessed with Vincent.

460
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:25.139
Wow.

461
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:35.039
And so, you know, had had that artwork, you know, like prints, but on the walls around the house and, you know, coffee table books with them.

462
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:36.420
Like, I love Vincent.

463
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:43.139
I also was at that museum in 2008 in Amsterdam, not at the same time, Nathan.

464
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:54.239
And It was, it was just such a moving experience because of what, what that man meant.

465
00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:57.960
I knew his history at that point as an adult.

466
00:44:58.019 --> 00:45:01.019
I knew what, you know, what he'd gone through.

467
00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:15.900
And knowing, knowing that sort of loneliness and depression, pain, and that he'd created such beautiful artwork was just, like that was beautiful to me.

468
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:19.440
Like it was, it was a, like it was really, it was a really moving experience.

469
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:25.019
And it doesn't need to be perfect as well.

470
00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:28.619
Yeah, you like James just said like, oh, it's not perfect.

471
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:34.139
Well, does it need to be perfect if you absolutely loved watching it?

472
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:35.340
Like does it need to be perfect?

473
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:44.760
So for James, it really, it was perfect, really, because it's like he absolutely loves it.

474
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:51.960
And I mean, so do I. And I think anybody who does who disagrees is really just not my friend, quite frankly.

475
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.500
And there's the title of this.

476
00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:00.119
I wonder how well it sits.

477
00:46:00.179 --> 00:46:01.260
No, I think it all does.

478
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:02.699
The comedy with the tragedy.

479
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:06.119
You can't, you see, we lost a friend, a very close friend last year.

480
00:46:06.179 --> 00:46:18.480
Um, uh, you, making light of suicide, really, even in a narrative form, sits awkwardly with anyone who's lost anyone in their family, regardless of how they've lost them.

481
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:21.000
But I do feel this works.

482
00:46:21.059 --> 00:46:26.639
A, because as you said earlier, Fiona, Doctor Who takes everything out of the situation and puts it into Doctor Whodom.

483
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:27.179
Yeah.

484
00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:35.159
So, it exists under its own, under its own exigencies, but I don't find the depth in the tragedy of his loss.

485
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:40.980
I find it in the tragedy of his not recognising his own brilliance while he was here.

486
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:44.820
And that is where the emotional truth lies in this.

487
00:46:44.880 --> 00:47:03.360
And again, it's the mirror of Amy not realising why she feels lost or not realising that love that she didn't allow really herself to express to the person she was committed to and who gave her an absolutely open heart.

488
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:08.940
And in return, she was still playing the offer.

489
00:47:09.059 --> 00:47:12.480
She was still playing big and playing playing strong.

490
00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:21.480
But this is the episode where we get to explore what that is like and how truth is actually much, much faster.

491
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:31.619
It really is a field of wheat, field of corn waiting to ripen or a field of wheat waiting, you know, waiting to ripen, waiting to be harvested.

492
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:33.420
So the metaphors are very strong.

493
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:37.980
I, I, suspect Curtis is such a good rider that he's, he thought about all of this.

494
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:42.900
But it's like any analysis of any work at work, whether it be writing or music or painting.

495
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:44.760
It's already there.

496
00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:50.760
All the critic does, all the observer does is unpick it, but there's a lot more in it than we could even say.

497
00:47:50.820 --> 00:48:00.059
We're just touching on the emotional aspects and the construction when it's a good piece of work, it all comes together perfectly.

498
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:05.519
So I suspect we could spend a lot of time on picking this and finding metaphors for the truth of life.

499
00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:38.460
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

500
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:43.679
We will be back next week to drop round to James Corden's place to ruin his life in the lodger.

501
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:59.880
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at flights through entirety on Facebook, at FT podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody into Terror.

502
00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:07.860
Until next time, let's hope that we've all remembered to give our beards a trim, the next time we give you a big kiss.

503
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.500
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

504
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:11.280
Good night.

505
00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:12.360
Good night.

506
00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:13.320
Good night.

507
00:49:13.380 --> 00:49:15.000
Does that make Fiona upbeat for this one?

508
00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:25.320
That woman's flight through entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, James Selwood, Richard Stone, and Fiona Tommy.

509
00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:27.179
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

510
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:33.239
This episode, Balancing the Darkness, was recorded on the 14th of February 2021 and released on the 16th of May.

511
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:45.659
Thank you to everyone who's written in to say that they'd love to arrange for me to wake up to a garden full of sunflowers.

512
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:52.260
They do give me hives and hay fever, though, so I will appreciate the gesture, but you will be sneezed on.

513
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:57.179
What do you think?

514
00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:58.440
I think we've probably got an out.

515
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.840
Fiona, what do you think?

516
00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:05.400
You don't have to anything add anything if you don't have anything to add.

517
00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:08.579
I did, you could not think earlier, but I did.

518
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:09.900
Yeah, because you're the person here with children.

519
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:18.360
Children, one of them fortunately walked in the door quite quietly earlier after a big night out on the town.

520
00:50:18.420 --> 00:50:19.619
So how time has progressed?

521
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:21.840
There's the sound that you can notice.

522
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:26.820
No, no, that was the dog, the sound that Nathan noticed.

523
00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:35.760
My favourite bit, which we haven't mentioned, this is probably a tag, is he bitching about Michelangelo and Picasso.

524
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:37.920
Oh, yes.

525
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:40.019
In Gainsborough is a proper painting.

526
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:40.679
Yes, yeah.

527
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:46.679
And then we got the doctor is a little bit of a wine and cheeser with his mates down at the posh club.

528
00:50:46.739 --> 00:50:48.239
That is funny, isn't it?

529
00:50:48.300 --> 00:50:49.860
Like, it's a very pert we thing to say.

530
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:56.940
Yeah, the whole, the whole thing is about, you know, Vincent being the greatest painting ever and the doctor himself says it later on.

531
00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:04.800
But when he's by himself in the Tartars, he wants something much more representational and something with a little bit more sort of painterly skill.

532
00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:06.780
I found Joshua Reynolds missing.

533
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:07.500
You know that?

534
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:08.699
It's funny.

535
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:16.079
Like the Picasso be a ghastly old goat, which I think is very mild actually compared to what he was doing.

536
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:17.519
I like 2 eyes.

537
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:19.500
I don't know the face.

538
00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:22.860
And Michelangelo being a whinge.

539
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:27.659
And it's so shocking too, because whenever the doctor does that sort of name dropping stuff.

540
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:39.059
Normally, it's, you know, you know, I knew Houdini or, you know, like I was great friends with da Vinci or whatever, but it's not, I met them when they were just intolerable. so funny.

541
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.099
And he's so bored as well.

542
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:43.139
Like, I love how bored he is in that scene.

543
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:44.219
He's just terrific.

544
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:45.719
I love it when he's sort of bored and shot.

545
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:49.139
Yeah, and that comes in later with the power of, was it?

546
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:50.280
What's the episode?

547
00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:52.019
Is it the power of...

548
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:52.860
Three, yeah, yeah.

549
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:57.300
Yeah, how he just kind of goes and paints a fence and mows a lawn and.

550
00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:15.599
Yeah, which it's lovely, like part of Matt, that whole, how he's got that real restless energy, like he's just, he's somebody you, you can't, and even this, um, Oh, just thinking about too, the vampires of Venice that I'm not sure if you record it or not.

551
00:52:15.659 --> 00:52:21.300
But there's a bit where he sits in that throne and he's just, he doesn't just sit down in the chair.

552
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:28.019
He sits there and he kind of squirms himself in and gets comfy and yeah, he's sort of someone who's in perpetual motion.

553
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.739
He's never just standing there doing nothing kind of guy.

554
00:52:31.860 --> 00:52:35.280
He's um, got all that. love that physicality.

555
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:39.599
So do I. That is one of the things I love about his doctor.

556
00:52:39.659 --> 00:52:43.019
Yeah, and the floppy hair, that doesn't go.

557
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:44.940
Yeah, stray either.

558
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:46.920
Yeah, that's pretty good.

559
00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:50.460
I love the way he says the word important.

560
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:52.380
Do you listen?

561
00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:55.679
It's my favourite thing about his performances when he says...

562
00:52:55.739 --> 00:52:56.760
It's great.

563
00:52:56.820 --> 00:52:57.659
Oh.

564
00:52:57.659 --> 00:52:59.159
He says important.

565
00:52:59.219 --> 00:53:00.420
I know exactly what you mean.

566
00:53:01.380 --> 00:53:02.760
Yes.

567
00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:04.800
The f the fowls are great.

568
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:07.380
Yeah, it's a T. the properties and all of that.

569
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:10.320
He says it like a posh kid, but I still like it.

570
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:11.760
All right.

571
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:12.539
Love that.

572
00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:14.579
I think we'll wind it up.

573
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:20.219
I'm going to do the thing, and again, it's good night, and then James, and then Fiona, and then Richard.

574
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:21.119
Yeah, yeah, done.

575
00:53:21.539 --> 00:53:25.019
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.