WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:26:22

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Hello, dear listen, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast, which can no longer remember the

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night when we bought one last glass of the house read, with a

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painting worth 1000000 US dollars.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Fiona.

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So I'm a vineyard and a very sad, poignant, and quite beautiful

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moment in history and in this show for this one.

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Well, it's time once more for our annual celebrity, historical, and

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this time the celebrity is none other than Richard Curtis, the man

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who made World War I 5 slappingly hilarious in Black Adder goes

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forth, and who turned Christmas into an insufferable ordeal in

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love actually.

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So let's see how he gets on with history's greatest artist

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probably, in Vincent and the doctor.

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You know, he also wrote all the Parker and Penelope scenes for

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that much enjoyed 2003 Thunderbirds movie, too, don't you?

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Don't hold that against him.

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No, they're the best parts of it.

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They were actually going to do a spinoff.

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George Harrison loved it so much.

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He was going to do a Parker and Penelope film, but the studios

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wouldn't pick it up.

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Damn it Where were?

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So, Fiona, are you a big fan of love, actually?

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I do enjoy it, but I'm not a big fan, no.

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Yeah, I've read in preparation for this podcast, a hilarious

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article, which I'll fling in the show notes about how truly

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horrific it is and how it's about white middle class men being

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entitled around various ladies, including Emma Thompson.

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A few other people have said that, but not Emma Thompson.

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What did you think of it, Fiona?

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Well, at the time I just watched it as a fun movie, but I do think

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poor Emma, like that's just the heartbreaking moment in it.

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I think, um, I always find all the stuff with Hugh Grant a bit

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tedious.

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But yeah, Emma's little substory was was quite heartbreaking.

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Um, if we're talking Richard Curtis films, I much prefer about

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time to love actually, which is the film that he may just after

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having written Vincent and the doctor.

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Ah.

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And it's about a character who discovers that he can travel

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backwards and forwards in his own timeline.

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And so he, he keeps doing over his life to try and get the, you

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know, like a life that he's happy with.

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And in the end, he would, well, I'm not.

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In the end, he joins the 1st order and betrays them to the

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resistance.

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It becomes Ginger Hitler.

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And surprise, surprise, Bill Nice.

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So did he do the tall guy?

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So Emma Thompson and Jeff Goldblum.

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I think it's a sort of very early, very, it's a very early Richard

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Curtis thing, and it includes a superb kind of take on how awful

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Rowan Atkinson is as a person, played by actual Rowan Atkinson

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which I thought was pretty brave.

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So, uh, it's it's pretty good.

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He's um, he is a strange choice as a Doctor Who writer, I think.

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Well, it worked.

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We did have this earlier in the season where we had Simon Nye

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writing Amy's choice, you know, someone who's new to Doctor Who

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and wasn't necessarily a sort of Doctor Who-ish kind of writer.

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And I think that it means that the show does things that it might

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not otherwise do.

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And, you know, it's something that Russell had tried to do.

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Um, you know, there was always that sort of Stephen Fry script

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that was going to happen in Russell's, uh, yeah.

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But Moffatt actually brings it off here.

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And I think it's sort of super successful.

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I think also possibly the reason why it's successful is because

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Richard Curtis had had this idea many years before.

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And how much of it was the idea because I didn't Moffatt rewrite a

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lot of the monster stuff.

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He came to him with the idea.

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Okay for like, well, you know, like the basic idea, like Vincent

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and the doctor.

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From memory, a lot of the dialogue was rewritten.

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And he asked Moffatt to be quite brutally honest and Moffatt was

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his code.

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And then he never came back.

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I think, I mean, there is Richard courtesy dialogue and there's a

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Richard courtesy sort of sensibility.

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There's a sort of, there's an upper middle classness to its

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concerns, I think.

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So we're in an art gallery in Paris.

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If only we were in that art gallery in Paris. one of my favourite

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art galleries in the world.

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Except there's no, the Van Gogh room looks nothing like that

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octahedron, but I love the Muse d'Orsee.

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They could have gone to Amsterdam.

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Yeah, yeah, Gael Andy redid it.

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It's a beautiful early 19th century train station.

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Museato, say. beautiful space and they are actually in it when

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they're running around looking up at the roof, but then they run

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away to a studio with populated by Bill Nye as queen of the art

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world.

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You said they're not outside it though.

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No, that's not screen.

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Yeah.

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So they did, I think they sent a 2nd unit to there to do the sort

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of, you know, establishing gallery shots and things, but most of

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it is the National Museum in Cardiff.

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Ah, okay. which they've used over and over again.

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That's what it is then, and it works so well because the

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establishing shots are of the roof, and I just, you know, your

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brain reads that as, oh, yeah, you're actually in there because

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there are stairs like the one that they walk up to with the black

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statue.

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Yeah.

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Okay, clarify, isn't it?

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Very clever.

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Yeah, it's quite well done, I think.

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And then the rest of it's shot in Tregear as part of the block

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where they do vampires of Venice.

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So the village.

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It was very exciting to be back in Port Marion.

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I expected to see, I expected to see old sly boots running about

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with his gold mask and headless chickens.

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There was a lot about chickens, again.

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Yeah, yeah, chickens in these stories.

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I mean, how do we feel about Van Gogh just personally?

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It's perfect placement for what happened with Amy and Rory.

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And I think it actually touches very lightly on the depth of the

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man.

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Obviously because it's family TV.

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You can't go too much.

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Tony Curran does a beautiful job, but we are doing the accent

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aren't we?

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I do love that that sort of lampshading.

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Oh, you're Dutch, like me.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yes, yes.

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It really peeves me.

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I don't know what Fiona thinks about it.

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Like to know, but I just, look, maybe it's because I grew up with

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RP and I just remember everyone, but there's a reason RP was

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required is because you don't have to turn on the subtitles. which

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I have to do for Karen.

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Because they throw their lines away.

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I have to do it for Matt too.

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Young people, they mumble.

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I don't have that issue at all.

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I find them both very easy to understand.

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The only actor.

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I ha- have had a problem with in the past was really Sylvester and

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that was a case of getting your ear in.

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And then once you kind of got used to him, it was okay.

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But initially, there was a lot of, Lines that and I guess too, like

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because we watched, it's not just a single viewing for a lot of

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episodes.

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So you might miss it on the 1st go and get it on the 2nd go and

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The 10th go and.

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But yeah, with Karen.

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I've never I've never had a problem.

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And same with Matt, but um, Yeah, that's something that's never

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really occurred to me.

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I think the issue I have with Matt's dialogue is not the inability

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to understand his accent, but how fast he speaks.

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Yeah, I mean, he has a sort of tendency to throw lines away.

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But, I mean, I think the decision to let Tony Curran use his own

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accents the right one, because we've seen actors struggle with

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kind of accents, and I know that, you know, British actors do

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accents, they're very good at it.

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But it also kind of gives him a kind of earthiness or something

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you know, like that.

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There's, There's a sort of strange quality to Vincent as he's

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portrayed here, um, because even though he's an artist, I don't

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know, there's something about the the rough way that he lives, the

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how excluded he is, you know, how different he is from everyone

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else. you know, the way he's treated.

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And have you ever heard an Antwerp accent?

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I think too, in a Doctor Who context.

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It's the last thing that you really care about.

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Like, you just, it wasn't until the, actually, until he had the

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line where saying, oh, you Dutch as well.

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It actually hadn't occurred to me.

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It just I'd just been watching the story and enjoying it.

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So, yeah, I hadn't even sort of thought, oh, he's not speaking in

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a Dutch accent because I think you're so used to going to alien

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planets and everybody speaks in English in um, received

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pronunciation.

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You, um, yeah, you just sort of, I think that's the last thing

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that really I'm, I was sort of looking for.

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I was just so engrossed in the story by that point.

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So probably if it had been a feature film, you might have said

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well, hey, but I think in a Doctor Who, where it's more about, just

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let's have a fun story.

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I think I think it's fine.

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And we 1st see him actually in that scene in the cafe and that

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cafe is actually something that he paints.

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It's actually not... very famous painting and it's beautifully

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realised, yeah.

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Did you get that too, Fiona?

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It's the same with the set of his bedroom.

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It's just extraordinary.

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Yeah, and that was one of the joys of the whole episode.

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Most of that cafe was built on location by the production team.

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They found something that looked about right, but they built the

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awning.

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They built the platform, they found the right chairs, they did the

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right, they changed the windows of the cafe and lit it. like to be

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picture perfect.

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I think that the decision to like recreate a bunch of the

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paintings, you know, like they recreate the straw hat self

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portrait.

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They recreate that church, they find a church for him to paint.

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Like, I think that's a pretty good decision, but it does.

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There's a sort of theme park approach to this like there is to

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every historical.

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I think it starts that way, but because of the subject matter.

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They, you know, like they do start doing the, the shtick, the, oh

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look, wow.

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Sunflowers, um, it's kind of veering towards the same sort of, what

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I think are mistakes, um, in things like Shakespeare code.

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I, you know, I don't like that approach to history in a dog

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story.

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But when they start to delve into his his depression and his

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isolation and then they have those beautiful scenes with, uh, him

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noticing that, that Amy is sad and she's crying without realising

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that scene.

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Then it becomes something more, I think.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think so.

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I mean, you know, the bedroom was somewhere else entirely.

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Um, he'd been painting sunflowers for some years, you know, that

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cafe. was in Arles, you know, just north of Paris.

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Like there's, they collapse his history a bit.

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But, you know, there's a reasonable amount of actual concrete

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information about his life, and some of it's delivered in that 1st

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speech, the Bill Nye speech in the 1st scene, where we just get a

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little bit of a summary for the children at home of why Vincent's

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important.

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I think that's because uh, Curtis, although he was already

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familiar with Van Gogh quite a lot, he still went and read a 200

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page biography of him in preparation, which is more work than he's

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done for a lot of his own film.

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Yes.

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So he probably had a lot of that at his fingertips.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So just it was a bit like a Van Gogh 101, but Just with my own

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children who at the time they were about sort of roughly 10 and 8

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and they wouldn't have had, you know, a detailed knowledge of who

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he was.

246
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But it just piqued their interest so that they did after watching

247
00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:23.399
it.

248
00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:24.539
They did want to know more.

249
00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:29.580
And 5 years later, I was actually fortunate enough to take them to

250
00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:35.580
the UK and we went to the National Gallery and um, they were super

251
00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:37.139
interested to see his paintings.

252
00:14:37.139 --> 00:14:40.679
And I've actually got a really cute photo of camera next to the

253
00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:41.519
sunflowers.

254
00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:46.139
Which is beautiful and yeah, and he was like really keen to get

255
00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:50.279
his photo taken with the, um, of course it didn't say for Amy on

256
00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:51.240
the real version.

257
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.539
We did share. disappointing.

258
00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:59.879
How did they react emotionally, because this is some really, this

259
00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:04.980
is big stuff, but I have a great faith in children's understanding

260
00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:10.320
that far more fluidly and far more directly than we do as adults

261
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:14.639
and I'm really interested in what a 10 and 8 year olds who've been

262
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.820
brought up, I imagine, although, you know, I don't know what you

263
00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:21.299
like with your horses, but I imagine to be honest and speak the

264
00:15:21.299 --> 00:15:21.840
truth.

265
00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:25.080
I know you've got discipline is also required.

266
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.440
But do you, how did they respond?

267
00:15:28.500 --> 00:15:29.340
Were they?

268
00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:32.039
You get you get the blunt truth out of children, don't you?

269
00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:33.840
Yeah, absolutely do.

270
00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:38.940
But to be honest, it's just so long ago when we did that initial

271
00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:43.080
viewing that I can't recall and I was probably too busy sobbing my

272
00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.379
eyes out to really care what they were thinking at the time

273
00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:50.039
because I was... one, isn't it?

274
00:15:50.100 --> 00:15:55.080
I hadn't sobbed since, since RTD and Rose leaving, you know, that

275
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:56.759
as I did with this one.

276
00:15:56.820 --> 00:15:59.759
I had a little cry this morning when I was rewatching it in

277
00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.639
preparation for the podcast, I was crying for the last 10 minutes

278
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:03.960
of the episode.

279
00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:06.240
What I love about that today.

280
00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:09.899
It's Doctor Who fulfilling its educational remit.

281
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.740
Yeah.

282
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.620
You know, way that is not banging you over the head.

283
00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:18.600
I think that the decision, in fact, to ignore sort of to collapse

284
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:23.460
a lot of the stuff into that last sort of 6 months of Vincent's

285
00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:29.159
life is the right decision because you get to show the important

286
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:34.740
things, you know, like sunflowers are introduced, that scene with

287
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:38.940
Amy, with all the sunflowers outside for breakfast on that day.

288
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:43.799
And then he punctures her sort of excitement by saying, oh, I

289
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:44.340
don't really like them.

290
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.379
Yeah, how they're quite disgusting.

291
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:51.659
Yeah, but I think that that's Curtis then getting the chance to

292
00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:57.240
actually do a reading of why he chose those flowers, you know, that

293
00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:58.919
he finds them disgusting.

294
00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:01.740
They are on the border of life and death.

295
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:04.140
There's something earthy about them.

296
00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:05.880
They fascinated him.

297
00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:08.460
Yeah. than he was in love with their beauty.

298
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:12.839
He was painting a life painting of a flower, basically.

299
00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:13.859
Yeah, yeah.

300
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:18.299
And so I think that I think that that was worth doing just to get

301
00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:21.660
those images in and to get that stuff talked about and the fact

302
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:24.299
that he'd painted heaps of sunflowers, you know, in Paris and

303
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:28.559
whatever and all years before doesn't actually matter.

304
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:32.759
And anyone who's sufficiently motivated to learn about Vincent

305
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:37.440
from watching the episode will go back and and, you know, find out

306
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.180
kind of what the deal was.

307
00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:43.440
So, I, like I thought that I thought that the Shakespeare code

308
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.640
fell down a bit because it didn't engage with any of Shakespeare's

309
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:51.660
concerns at all and just basically was doing the shtick and

310
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:53.160
dumping the quotes in.

311
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:54.839
But I think this does do that.

312
00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:58.200
And it was quite different from the what we know about the real

313
00:17:58.200 --> 00:17:59.160
Shakespeare.

314
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.059
It was kind of like that rock star version, whereas this is trying

315
00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:08.400
to adhere more closely to reality, but you're not feeling the

316
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.220
whole way through that you're being slapped around the head by it

317
00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:15.960
whereas it's not like a massive info dump and you're not being...

318
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.839
You don't feel like you're having history ram down your throat and

319
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.920
the whole sunflower scene was worth doing just for the fact that

320
00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:27.119
visually it was beautiful. like that Amy and her red with all the

321
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:28.619
yellow and the bright sunshine.

322
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:30.720
I mean, that's a gorgeous image.

323
00:18:30.779 --> 00:18:32.339
And her smiling.

324
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:33.180
Yeah.

325
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:33.839
Yeah.

326
00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:36.240
Just yeah, just beautiful.

327
00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:41.460
Is that before after he says about this, I think that's just

328
00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:45.299
before they go for the walk and he said why you, you know, that

329
00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:47.279
you're crying. you're why you say sad.

330
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.759
And that's a nice contrast to that as well.

331
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.359
I just think that was a really important scene.

332
00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:59.519
Yeah, I mean, I think that scene is unusual because it's the only

333
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:01.140
one that really touches on the arc.

334
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:05.759
Um, you know, it could be the doctor and any companion, really.

335
00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:09.539
And Amy, you know, she's sexually confident and she's redhaired

336
00:19:09.539 --> 00:19:10.319
and stuff like that.

337
00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:11.579
So she sort of fits in.

338
00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:13.319
He wants to have lots of babies.

339
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:14.519
Yes, yeah.

340
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:19.380
It's the only one that's about the Amy and Rory.

341
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.000
Remember, I've got red hair, okay?

342
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.640
Hi, Fiona.

343
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:29.220
I don't want to have lots of babies.

344
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.660
T was plenty.

345
00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:36.180
But, I mean, that's the only scene that touches on the wider arc.

346
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.420
And so last week, Rory dies.

347
00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:40.259
Yeah.

348
00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:44.579
And we get a, we get a little hint, don't we, where Amy is

349
00:19:44.579 --> 00:19:48.180
suspicious of the doctor because the doctor's being so nice to her

350
00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:51.299
and taking her to the, to the gallery.

351
00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:54.299
And then we get this where she's crying.

352
00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:56.700
And it's actually going to be incredibly important because this is

353
00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:03.059
sort of paving the way to the idea that memory is important.

354
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:04.500
And we'll talk more about that.

355
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.660
We're kind of getting ahead of ourselves, but we'll talk more

356
00:20:06.660 --> 00:20:07.740
about that in the finale.

357
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.140
But I don't think we can not remark on it.

358
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:15.180
It just touches very lightly on the arc and contributes to it very

359
00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:15.599
slightly.

360
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:19.920
But it's clever too, because it's one that if you had just

361
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.579
watching this as a one off and you didn't know that Rory had died

362
00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:26.700
it wouldn't be like a massive jar.

363
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:29.940
Yeah, you wouldn't be going like, you could go, oh, there must

364
00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.759
have been something happen, but it doesn't really detract from

365
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:34.799
your overall enjoyment of the episode.

366
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:38.759
It's not kind of like you had to previously have watched all these

367
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.940
episodes to to be able to follow what's going on.

368
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:43.980
Yeah.

369
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:45.180
Yeah, I think that's right.

370
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.539
And I think it's probably a function of getting someone big like

371
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:50.400
Richard Curtesy and do you know what I mean?

372
00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:53.220
You're not going to sit down and map out the minutiae of the

373
00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:53.759
season to it.

374
00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:54.599
Yeah.

375
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:57.539
Yeah, so it's another bit about you not feeling like you're being

376
00:20:57.539 --> 00:21:01.920
slapped around the head with stuff and um, And later where he just

377
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.819
sort of says like he just says Rory, you know, again, that's quite

378
00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:10.799
subtle, really, it's not kind of, doesn't make, it's just that

379
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.099
little gentle reminder to the audience and going, oh, he's not

380
00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:14.339
here.

381
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:20.220
So if you're your viewer like us, you sort of go, oh, Rory, but if

382
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:23.400
you weren't watching, you would just go, oh, yeah, whatever, Rory

383
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.359
you know, you wouldn't be it.

384
00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:25.500
It wouldn't be a big distraction.

385
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:27.000
So, yeah.

386
00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:32.099
And I just love to that sort of subtle body language where when

387
00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:35.640
Vincent is talking to Amy and they're walking along and they're

388
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:39.599
obviously having like a very emotional moment and the doctor is

389
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.480
just looking more and more uncomfortable and guilty in the

390
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.480
background and and he's sort of, you know, I think he says

391
00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.200
something along like, oh, moving on now, you know, just, but yeah

392
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:54.180
just the look on his face where he's just going, oh, I don't this

393
00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:55.319
we don't want to go here kind of thing.

394
00:21:55.380 --> 00:22:00.359
And at the start where you said about too, in the gallery where, um

395
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.599
yeah, that the whole, oh, you're being so nice to me.

396
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:07.200
I just think that says wonders about their relationship as well

397
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.099
the fact that they've got that slightly bickering and it's like

398
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.859
it's weird, you're being really nice to me, like what's going on?

399
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:16.140
Do you want, you know, normally, like, what do you want?

400
00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:17.160
What do you want kind of thing?

401
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:21.359
And again, like, when sort of she's not looking at him, you can

402
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.900
see him sort of just looking that little bit uncomfortable.

403
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:29.220
But the whole body language between them and and um, Yeah, the

404
00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:32.519
whole like on-screen chemistry is wonderful between the 2 of

405
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:32.759
them.

406
00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:34.680
I think they really do work well together.

407
00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:48.720
You know the starry night scene?

408
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.380
Oh, yes.

409
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:50.940
Where they're lying there.

410
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:56.400
And like, we can, we can talk about that in more depth, but their

411
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.680
physical closeness.

412
00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:02.940
You know, they're all holding hands and all 3 of them together

413
00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:10.140
like there's a kind of physical warmth between Matt and Vincent as

414
00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:10.259
well.

415
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:15.000
Yeah, the holding hands thing is not awkward in any way, but the 3

416
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.240
of them are lying there and they're really, really physically

417
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.319
close to one another.

418
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:20.099
Yeah.

419
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:25.619
There is something very sweet and sad about how close Vincent

420
00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:27.240
becomes to the doctor.

421
00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:29.160
There's a really, really good moment.

422
00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:33.359
I think, where he says, you know, we've fought monsters together

423
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.700
to the doctor, but on my own.

424
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:39.299
I don't think I'll do quite so well. that I think works

425
00:23:39.299 --> 00:23:40.259
terrifically well.

426
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:41.339
Yeah.

427
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:46.140
The other thing I think is really special is that line where after

428
00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:49.799
the, the monster has accidentally been slain.

429
00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:54.660
That there's so much compassion for starters for the whole death

430
00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:55.440
of the monster.

431
00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:58.380
It's not just like, oh, oops, we, you know.

432
00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:02.279
Sorry, monster, you're dead, which does happen in a lot of

433
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:02.700
episodes.

434
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:06.059
It's kind of like, you know, somebody casually dies and it's like

435
00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:07.680
oh, well, moving on.

436
00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:12.180
But there's so much compassion from all the characters and that

437
00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:16.859
whole line of, sometimes winning doesn't, um, I'm not, I'm not

438
00:24:16.859 --> 00:24:20.519
quoting it directly, but the whole, it's not fun to win, you know

439
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:22.319
you've won, but it doesn't feel good.

440
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:27.000
And, I think that sort of is a bit with the whole Vincent's a

441
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:31.859
thing as well, you know, that just like, Not everything is good in

442
00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:32.220
life.

443
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.539
There are these painful moments that we all go through.

444
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.819
Have they even won, I think, is the question there.

445
00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:43.140
They haven't won.

446
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.880
Nobody's won out of the situation.

447
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:50.519
This poor animal who was in pain and lonely and blind and and, you

448
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:54.539
know, was, you know, lashing out because it was conceded, yeah.

449
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:58.019
Yeah, that lashic, that, that actually that was the 1st part

450
00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:03.779
rewatching it that I started to cry because that whole line of

451
00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:07.140
Vincent's about like, oh, it was lashing out and that's what the

452
00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:10.380
how the kids treat me and throw stones at me because they don't

453
00:25:10.380 --> 00:25:11.400
understand and.

454
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:14.400
Yeah, lashing out because you're hurting.

455
00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:16.500
So sad.

456
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:20.099
I think that monster is really interesting.

457
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.359
Don't you?

458
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:23.940
I think there's something symbolically about it.

459
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.859
About birdie num-nums.

460
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:28.259
It's very Peter Sellers.

461
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.259
Well, it's also very Monty Python, isn't it?

462
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:32.880
It's actually, no, it's very Spike Milligan.

463
00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:35.640
Do you remember Spike Milliken's drawings of enormous parrot?

464
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:40.740
in profile in his children's book of milliganimals and silly verse

465
00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:41.099
for kids.

466
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.720
I think it's only Monty Python at the end of that scene once it's

467
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:45.960
died.

468
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.660
But this is a dead parrot.

469
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:55.740
So in some way, it and its race represent the human race, that

470
00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:01.079
we're cruel and brutal and we abandon, you know, hurt members or

471
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:05.519
members that can't keep up and just leave them to suffer.

472
00:26:05.579 --> 00:26:08.400
And that's what's happened to Vincent and Vincent makes that

473
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.619
comparison himself.

474
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.880
So the Crefeus, uh, Tories.

475
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:21.359
They human beings. we all do it Also, I think that the blindness

476
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.039
of the crofeas, you know, the crofeas, which is lashing out at

477
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:29.099
people and is blind and is explicitly compared to the people

478
00:26:29.099 --> 00:26:31.200
persecuting Vincent.

479
00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:35.220
It has one less sense than we do.

480
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:41.940
And there is something about Vincent's ability to see that this

481
00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:43.680
episode kind of plays with.

482
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.359
Yeah.

483
00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:50.940
But also, do you, do you think that, the, um, because you know how

484
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:53.880
the, the doctor does have a line saying that they're really

485
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:57.240
vicious and they're, they're killers and that's why we need to

486
00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:00.839
stop this monster because it will just, you know, go around the

487
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.740
village and and kill everybody indiscriminately.

488
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:09.480
But then, and obviously that girl, and it's wonderful how it is

489
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.079
off camera because obviously she was very, very brutally

490
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:14.160
murdered.

491
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:18.420
And the reaction of the doctor to that is, and Amy, all the

492
00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:21.240
characters, it's great because he's not just like, oh, there's a

493
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:21.779
dead body.

494
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:25.079
Like he, you can see that he's genuinely going, oh, this is awful

495
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:28.799
and this poor girl, like he's feeling genuine remorse that this

496
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:29.220
has happened.

497
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:34.440
But do you think it was a case of like, she was in the way so he

498
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:39.599
the monster did kill her or she literally, was in the way and he

499
00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:45.180
didn't see her and accidentally, like, crushed her or, because

500
00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:48.059
we're not quite sure whether she's been ripped apart or just kind

501
00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:49.920
of stepped on and squashed or something.

502
00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:53.940
Isn't there a line about it picking off the week?

503
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.339
I don't remember, but there is a line.

504
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.200
I mean, I think it is brutal.

505
00:27:58.259 --> 00:28:01.200
And that's why I've kind of resisted any reading that sees the

506
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:05.579
monster as Vincent himself because although there's a sense in

507
00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:10.559
which, no, so there's a tendency for the crofeus to abandon their

508
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:11.039
week.

509
00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:14.400
And so that makes us think of Vincent.

510
00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:18.720
But I don't think you can read the monster as Vincent just because

511
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.059
of the monster's cruelty.

512
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:27.420
But the monster does give Vincent something to identify with.

513
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:32.519
And the reason that Vincent can see it, I think, is because he's

514
00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:36.539
also abandoned and excluded in some way.

515
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:38.640
Yeah, very much so.

516
00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:42.900
The dualities of the id monster, because we're back to forbidden

517
00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:44.400
planet and the tempest.

518
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:46.079
Oh, there's a lot of Shakespeare in this, actually.

519
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:49.440
More so than the Shakespeare code. much more so.

520
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:52.500
But yeah, because we're talking about fraud emotions and people

521
00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:56.640
working off each other, but yes, the centre of this is actually

522
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:57.599
Amy.

523
00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:00.720
In fact, most of the season, I wonder how deliberate it is of

524
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.259
Stephen Moffat to make Amy, the centre of every story, much as

525
00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:06.000
Rose was season one.

526
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.359
This is another Amy story, and it's Amy's fraughtness.

527
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:12.599
So we have the doctor being her, oh, we're back to sex in the city

528
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:17.640
of the 4 the 4 girls being actually the 4 positions of the ego, 4

529
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:18.839
positions of the consciousness.

530
00:29:18.900 --> 00:29:19.140
Yeah.

531
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:25.799
So we've got the doctor as Amy Super Ego in control, but not.

532
00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:28.259
We've got Vincent as her broken heart.

533
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.319
And then we've got the monster as how she's actually feeling.

534
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.259
And then they're all just playing out.

535
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.359
So she always ends up being Samantha, of course.

536
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:37.859
But just playing out.

537
00:29:37.980 --> 00:29:41.880
But just playing out the, you know, maybe that's why this is

538
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:42.240
powerful.

539
00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:44.640
I wonder if Curtis was thinking along those lines.

540
00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:48.420
I'd like to think he was, because there isn't a better cypher for

541
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:53.759
a story like this than the absolute beauty and tragedy, um, the

542
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:58.319
beauty and the pain of of an artist who paints their own

543
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:04.440
impossibility to live, the impossibility of dealing with this much

544
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.200
emotion and every painting.

545
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:08.160
That's why he's worked.

546
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:12.000
He's, you know, he could say, critics would say technically he's

547
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.380
not the greatest of the impressionists.

548
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:16.680
It, it, he doesn't have the structure of the formalism.

549
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.180
He doesn't, it's so fast.

550
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.440
It's all intuitive painting.

551
00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:21.839
But that's why people respond to it.

552
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:23.759
It has the most heart.

553
00:30:23.819 --> 00:30:26.400
Most heart, exactly, and the most expression.

554
00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.900
There is no filter.

555
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.140
It is how he feels and children pick up on that.

556
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:34.740
You said your children were young teenagers when they were

557
00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:37.079
completely drawn to his work in London.

558
00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:40.200
It's this, I think I think everyone feels that everyone who is in

559
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:41.160
touch with their own feelings.

560
00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:45.240
So that's why it's the strongest episode for me of the season and

561
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:46.740
perhaps for a very long time.

562
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:52.799
And really, Bill Nye is therefore the voice of the conscious, the

563
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.460
conscious narrator in this, just by his presence and his metre.

564
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.819
And then there's that moment in the end where his childhood hero

565
00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:03.660
he gets to hug and then the conscious adult self has to step in

566
00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:05.339
because we have to stay in control.

567
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:07.380
And at the same thing happens with Amy.

568
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:08.880
She ends up having to stay in control.

569
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:14.640
So there's that beautiful moment in the gallery when the doctor

570
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:22.319
asks, uh, Dr. Black, Bill Nye's character to describe, how, how

571
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:31.799
important, like, Vincent is in, in history, and, and he describes

572
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:37.259
him and, and it just focusses on, on Vincent sort of feeling all

573
00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:37.799
these emotions.

574
00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:43.140
Then he goes to hug him and and thank him and then they walk off

575
00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:48.960
back to the TARDIS and Dr. Black kind of has a moment of, Oh, oh.

576
00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:51.299
And then he goes, no, it walks off.

577
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.380
It's just beautiful.

578
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.559
I actually think too, Richard Curtesy is funny and writes

579
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:56.279
comedies.

580
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:58.259
And I think that that's properly funny as well.

581
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:03.059
Like that scene, risks being overwrought, I think. you know, the

582
00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:04.799
pop song and the whole kind of thing.

583
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:06.779
Like, I think it does risk being overall.

584
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:07.920
But I fall for it every time.

585
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:09.420
Like it still works.

586
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:14.160
And he undercuts it because remember that Amy, when she says

587
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:18.480
goodbye to Vincent for the 1st time, tells him to trim his beard

588
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.039
before he goes to kiss someone.

589
00:32:20.099 --> 00:32:24.420
And then Vincent comes forward into the future and kisses Bill Nye

590
00:32:24.420 --> 00:32:27.240
twice and then says, sorry about the beard.

591
00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:32.759
Um, and then just, just that wonderful moment where Bill Nye

592
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:36.839
thinks, 0 my god, I've just met Vincent and then goes, no, no, no

593
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:37.079
no.

594
00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:39.839
You know, I'm a serious, grown-up, obviously, that can't possibly

595
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:40.500
have happened.

596
00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:42.839
But again, it's sort of played for laughs.

597
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.099
And he kind of has that sway on his feet where he's sort of like

598
00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:47.940
whoa, you know.

599
00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:03.900
You know, this episode, uh, Curtis wanted to call it the eyes that

600
00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:05.099
see the darkness.

601
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:08.640
Right, which... is a terrible title.

602
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:13.680
It is a terrible time. very descriptive of, it describes, it

603
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:15.180
describes what happens in the story.

604
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:22.140
You know, he sees the darkness in the in the creature, he sees, you

605
00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:24.180
know, the light and dark in the world.

606
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:32.039
So there is one thing that kind of that annoys me a little bit

607
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:37.920
about it, which is that, and maybe it works, like, I don't know

608
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:42.599
enough about Vincent's life to know exactly what actually happens

609
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:43.740
here.

610
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:46.920
But just that sort of constant, the trope of the struggling artist

611
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:51.660
you know, one of the ways that we justify our own sort of poor

612
00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:54.900
treatment of artists is to suggest that all true art comes through

613
00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:57.180
sort of struggle or something like that.

614
00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.339
Yeah, and so...

615
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.019
Yeah, yeah that's right.

616
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:04.859
And so that that sort of insistence that what Vincent is doing is

617
00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:07.019
turning his pain into beauty and stuff.

618
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:08.820
Like, yeah, okay.

619
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:15.179
It does seem like a, a, uh, like a simplistic reading of what's

620
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:19.079
going on or an appeal to those tropes, and that's just one of the

621
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.679
things that I just find slightly. you know, slightly off-putting

622
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:23.039
about it.

623
00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:29.940
But I do think that the way that it handles his illness is really

624
00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:35.159
interesting and thoughtful, um, like really good.

625
00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:40.739
I think it's still the only Doctor Who story to ever have a, um, a

626
00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:41.639
helpline message.

627
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:42.719
Oh, at the end.

628
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:43.619
Oh, yeah.

629
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.980
Well, because they mentioned killing himself twice, and I think

630
00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:48.539
they may have had to do it in that.

631
00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:50.099
Like, I think legally you're obliged.

632
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:50.579
Yeah, yeah.

633
00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:57.000
There's a moment at the very, very end where Amy is disappointed

634
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:58.980
that they didn't do any good.

635
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:00.599
They didn't make a difference.

636
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:01.739
Oh, that scene.

637
00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:03.840
It's so beautiful, isn't it?

638
00:35:03.900 --> 00:35:06.420
Because it's what the doctor says when he's hugging her.

639
00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:10.860
And it's, you know, Matt is super awkward and can't tell if

640
00:35:10.860 --> 00:35:13.679
someone's pregnant and like is super weird.

641
00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:15.000
Do you know what I mean?

642
00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:18.539
Like he, he looks like he doesn't understand people.

643
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:23.099
But that speech about a life being a pile of good things and bad

644
00:35:23.099 --> 00:35:27.659
things and them not cancelling one another out and look, we didn't

645
00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:31.679
fix his mental illness and we were never going to, but we made his

646
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:33.000
life a little better for a bit.

647
00:35:33.059 --> 00:35:36.179
I think that's lovely. you know, that's terrific.

648
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.820
And the other thing is where, yeah, yeah.

649
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.139
And the other thing is where he kneels down before Vincent starts

650
00:35:43.139 --> 00:35:44.099
to talk depression.

651
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.400
You know, depression is very complicated thing and Vincent just

652
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:47.940
says, shut up.

653
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.280
I'm trying to work with doing this one.

654
00:35:50.340 --> 00:35:51.360
That's brilliant. love that.

655
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:55.199
But that's that whole thing of balancing the darkness with the

656
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:56.039
comedy side.

657
00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:58.139
Like, it's just that lovely little balance.

658
00:35:58.199 --> 00:35:58.679
Yeah.

659
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:03.659
How, like, um, James said earlier in the in the scenes with um, Dr

660
00:36:03.659 --> 00:36:04.079
Black.

661
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:08.460
Um, how there's great emotion in there.

662
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:12.059
But there's also just those little touches of humour as well and

663
00:36:12.059 --> 00:36:15.119
the whole, you know, looking like when he walked off and his

664
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:18.000
glasses are falling off his face and he's slightly looking like

665
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.380
he's had a bit to drink.

666
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:25.619
Um, but his line, he said as well, um, Like he said, like the most

667
00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:31.019
beloved, and I think that whole thing of Vincent feeling that he

668
00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:34.679
didn't have much love in his life, you know, he was shunned, and

669
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:39.119
now he's got somebody saying, well, people did love you, you were

670
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:44.219
loved, and you are special, and yeah, that that's sort of what

671
00:36:44.219 --> 00:36:47.579
really on the, the viewing yesterday really sort of struck me.

672
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.440
And the bit with, um, You know, that Nathan was talking about with

673
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:54.360
the doctor and Amy where he's comforting her.

674
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.239
Like he, he doesn't hug her.

675
00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:01.500
He actually like gets in, has a cuddle, like he's really, it's not

676
00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:02.940
just a whole token.

677
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.260
I'm going to stick my arms around you.

678
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:08.400
It's really like about comforting her and really trying to make

679
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:09.179
her feel better.

680
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:13.800
And he still does have that little bit of like, kind of geeky

681
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:16.860
awkwardness, but it's at the same time, it's just so compassionate

682
00:37:16.860 --> 00:37:20.579
and just such a wonderful thing to say and.

683
00:37:21.059 --> 00:37:25.199
If you do that whole game, like, let's stick another doctor in the

684
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:29.579
story, like, could you imagine like that working with another

685
00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:30.300
doctor?

686
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.739
Um, I think Tom would just kind of try and leave the room as soon

687
00:37:34.739 --> 00:37:39.960
as possible or maybe like just give her a dirty hanky or a pile of

688
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:44.519
jelly babies and then try and like get away as quickly as... could

689
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:44.940
have done it.

690
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.280
If Tom could have done it, Pat could have done it.

691
00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:51.360
Yeah, but I mean, he wasn't really even a hugger, let alone a

692
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:51.840
cuddler.

693
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.079
Yeah, Silv, I think, could have called...

694
00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:57.420
This would work as a silver story perfectly.

695
00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:58.920
Yeah, that's not a bad.

696
00:37:59.099 --> 00:37:59.940
That's not a bad take.

697
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.500
I think, you know, like what I was thinking of recently was in, Can

698
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:09.000
you hear me in the Jody episode where Graham tries to speak to her

699
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:14.400
about his feelings around possible recurrence of his cancer and

700
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.739
she wanders off and says, oh, I'm going to go and play with some

701
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:18.300
controls here on the target.

702
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:19.139
That really annoys me.

703
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.679
Yeah, and I thought, I thought, you know, you can be...

704
00:38:22.739 --> 00:38:27.179
Yeah, yeah, but I thought you can be geeky and awkward, but, you

705
00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:29.039
know, actually care.

706
00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:33.960
Yeah, it'll be wise, you know, like the doctors, the doctor is old

707
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:36.780
and even though he can't tell if someone's pregnant or how old

708
00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:41.159
people are or whatever, he's still wise, you know, and so it's

709
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:44.940
nice for him to be able to say something, you know, just something

710
00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:45.480
perfect.

711
00:38:45.539 --> 00:38:47.519
I think that speech is incredibly good.

712
00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:49.320
No, absolutely.

713
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:53.039
And I think that was, yeah, back to, I mean, just we don't want to

714
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.159
concentrate on Jody in this episode, but that was a perfect

715
00:38:56.159 --> 00:39:00.539
opportunity to just kind of humanise her and because geeks are

716
00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:04.679
still people, as we all know, because I put my hand up to being a

717
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:05.159
geek.

718
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:10.320
And um, yeah, they still have emotions and they still care and

719
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.400
feel compassion and.

720
00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:17.280
All these big emotions and harking back um, to what Richard was

721
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:21.000
saying about like how how would children react to watching this

722
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:21.659
episode?

723
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:23.639
The whole thing about being excluded.

724
00:39:23.699 --> 00:39:27.119
I mean, there's not many children who, you know, even at that

725
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:30.659
younger age who can't relate to that feeling of being an outsider

726
00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:36.059
and having people exclude them and how horrible a feeling that

727
00:39:36.059 --> 00:39:36.300
is.

728
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:40.679
And I mean, everybody would have been through that to some degree

729
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.960
in their life and knows what it feels like.

730
00:39:43.019 --> 00:39:47.760
So, I think that probably would be a level where children could

731
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:48.780
have jumped on board.

732
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:52.440
Um, they might not understand, you know, the big feelings of

733
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.500
depression and all that, but they would understand that feeling of

734
00:39:55.500 --> 00:40:00.059
um, people not wanting to be your friend or include you or talk to

735
00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:01.980
you or, you know, not fitting in.

736
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:07.500
So, Yeah, that probably is a good, a clever slant on on the whole

737
00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:09.179
depression and madness.

738
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:14.099
And as the doctor, I love that the doctor said, you're not mad as

739
00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:14.400
well.

740
00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:15.780
There's that line at the church.

741
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.500
You're not mad when he starts to do the serious conversation about

742
00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:23.159
depression and then he's like bugger off. kind of thing.

743
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:27.119
Um, I like to call that Matt Spleening.

744
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.480
Yeah.

745
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:47.039
I tell a Vincent story?

746
00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:48.059
Yes, please.

747
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:52.679
So, I have been to Amsterdam a couple of times where there's the

748
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:53.820
Van Gogh Museum.

749
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:54.840
Oh, that museum.

750
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:59.099
Yeah, and I've been there twice and the 2nd time I was by myself

751
00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:01.679
and it was 2008.

752
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:05.579
Calvin was at home and I was travelling on my own and I spent the

753
00:41:05.579 --> 00:41:12.780
day just wandering around the museum and looking at as much as I

754
00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:16.139
could and reading, obviously, the biographical material that was

755
00:41:16.139 --> 00:41:19.800
available to contextualise each of the paintings.

756
00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:24.539
And I think the collection is actually organised by location, you

757
00:41:24.539 --> 00:41:27.300
know, like the period of time Wednesday and all, Wednesday and

758
00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:29.940
over, when is he, you know, in Paris and so on.

759
00:41:30.059 --> 00:41:32.579
And I spoke to Calvin afterwards.

760
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:39.480
And he asked me how I was, and I said that I was feeling sad.

761
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:46.920
And he said why, and I said, because, and, and like this is what, 2

762
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:48.539
years before this episode comes out?

763
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:53.699
And it was because of that barrier, that barrier in time, that

764
00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:58.019
means that, that after your death, you no longer have the

765
00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:02.699
opportunity to discover what your reception is going to be like.

766
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:08.460
And so the very fact that he died with out, ever imagining that

767
00:42:08.460 --> 00:42:12.539
anyone would care anything about his paintings or even remember

768
00:42:12.539 --> 00:42:13.500
who he was.

769
00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:18.420
You know, that he had sold one painting in his lifetime and now

770
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:21.480
there were art galleries just full of his paintings and they were

771
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:23.460
super famous and beloved.

772
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:27.300
And it just, it, it properly made me sad.

773
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:33.840
And so that final scene is absurdly over the top wishful film and

774
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.860
it doesn't really belong in the Doctor Who universe at all in a

775
00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:38.099
way.

776
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:39.840
The episode's over.

777
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:41.699
They're walking back to the TARDIS.

778
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.239
They've said goodbye to Vincent and the doctor just says, oh, no

779
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:45.539
screw it.

780
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.719
Let's fix this terrible injustice and bring him forward.

781
00:42:49.019 --> 00:42:53.940
And, and, and, you know, all of that stuff about time and, you

782
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:56.760
know, like not violating the laws of time and all of that.

783
00:42:56.820 --> 00:42:57.360
Who cares?

784
00:42:57.420 --> 00:42:58.440
I'm Richard Curtis.

785
00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:00.840
I don't give a crap about your stupid science fiction rules.

786
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:01.320
Yeah.

787
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.980
I'm just doing something that should have been done that should

788
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:06.960
should have been possible.

789
00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:10.800
And I think that that's why I cry in that final scene.

790
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:16.199
Um, and, you know, like, um, current's performance is so good.

791
00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:18.780
Like so brilliant in it.

792
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.719
It's, it's just tremendous.

793
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:25.619
It's over the top and schmaltzy and indefensible in all sorts of

794
00:43:25.619 --> 00:43:28.320
ways, but I can't possibly hate it.

795
00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:29.280
I think it's magnificent.

796
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:30.659
It is magnificent.

797
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:35.159
I don't even know why we would need to say schmaltzy, it's truth.

798
00:43:35.219 --> 00:43:35.820
Yeah.

799
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:37.679
Not a big fan of the song.

800
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:45.420
Well, the song is a little, perhaps a little over the top, but I

801
00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:50.519
don't, I don't find that it detracts from, the emotion of the

802
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:50.760
scene.

803
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:53.159
I don't think it really adds to anything either.

804
00:43:53.219 --> 00:43:54.480
I don't think you need the song.

805
00:43:54.719 --> 00:44:00.420
But the emotion of the scene speaks for itself and I, I mean, I

806
00:44:00.420 --> 00:44:05.159
just, I've said a number of times to the people in this room and

807
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:05.760
on the phone.

808
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.420
I love this story more than practically any other doctor history

809
00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:10.019
and history.

810
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:15.719
It's not perfect, but it's the emotional core of it that makes me

811
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:16.679
love it so much.

812
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:23.219
I grew up, you know, uh, with a mother who was obsessed with

813
00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:24.659
Vincent.

814
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:25.139
Wow.

815
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:30.119
And so, you know, had had that artwork, you know, like prints, but

816
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:34.500
on the walls around the house and, you know, coffee table books

817
00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:35.039
with them.

818
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:36.420
Like, I love Vincent.

819
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:42.119
I also was at that museum in 2008 in Amsterdam, not at the same

820
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:43.139
time, Nathan.

821
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:51.900
And It was, it was just such a moving experience because of what

822
00:44:51.900 --> 00:44:54.239
what that man meant.

823
00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:57.960
I knew his history at that point as an adult.

824
00:44:58.019 --> 00:45:01.019
I knew what, you know, what he'd gone through.

825
00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:07.380
And knowing, knowing that sort of loneliness and depression, pain

826
00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:14.099
and that he'd created such beautiful artwork was just, like that

827
00:45:14.099 --> 00:45:15.900
was beautiful to me.

828
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:18.960
Like it was, it was a, like it was really, it was a really moving

829
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:19.440
experience.

830
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:25.019
And it doesn't need to be perfect as well.

831
00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:28.619
Yeah, you like James just said like, oh, it's not perfect.

832
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:33.420
Well, does it need to be perfect if you absolutely loved watching

833
00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:34.139
it?

834
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:35.340
Like does it need to be perfect?

835
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:42.059
So for James, it really, it was perfect, really, because it's like

836
00:45:42.059 --> 00:45:44.760
he absolutely loves it.

837
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:49.679
And I mean, so do I. And I think anybody who does who disagrees is

838
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:51.960
really just not my friend, quite frankly.

839
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.500
And there's the title of this.

840
00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:00.119
I wonder how well it sits.

841
00:46:00.179 --> 00:46:01.260
No, I think it all does.

842
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:02.699
The comedy with the tragedy.

843
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.880
You can't, you see, we lost a friend, a very close friend last

844
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:06.119
year.

845
00:46:06.179 --> 00:46:12.840
Um, uh, you, making light of suicide, really, even in a narrative

846
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:17.099
form, sits awkwardly with anyone who's lost anyone in their family

847
00:46:17.099 --> 00:46:18.480
regardless of how they've lost them.

848
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:21.000
But I do feel this works.

849
00:46:21.059 --> 00:46:24.059
A, because as you said earlier, Fiona, Doctor Who takes everything

850
00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:26.639
out of the situation and puts it into Doctor Whodom.

851
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:27.179
Yeah.

852
00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:33.119
So, it exists under its own, under its own exigencies, but I don't

853
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:35.159
find the depth in the tragedy of his loss.

854
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:39.780
I find it in the tragedy of his not recognising his own brilliance

855
00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:40.980
while he was here.

856
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:44.820
And that is where the emotional truth lies in this.

857
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:51.719
And again, it's the mirror of Amy not realising why she feels lost

858
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:57.659
or not realising that love that she didn't allow really herself to

859
00:46:57.659 --> 00:47:02.460
express to the person she was committed to and who gave her an

860
00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:03.360
absolutely open heart.

861
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:08.940
And in return, she was still playing the offer.

862
00:47:09.059 --> 00:47:12.480
She was still playing big and playing playing strong.

863
00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:17.820
But this is the episode where we get to explore what that is like

864
00:47:17.820 --> 00:47:21.480
and how truth is actually much, much faster.

865
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:27.119
It really is a field of wheat, field of corn waiting to ripen or a

866
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.900
field of wheat waiting, you know, waiting to ripen, waiting to be

867
00:47:30.900 --> 00:47:31.619
harvested.

868
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:33.420
So the metaphors are very strong.

869
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:37.320
I, I, suspect Curtis is such a good rider that he's, he thought

870
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:37.980
about all of this.

871
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:41.699
But it's like any analysis of any work at work, whether it be

872
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:42.900
writing or music or painting.

873
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:44.760
It's already there.

874
00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:48.360
All the critic does, all the observer does is unpick it, but

875
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.760
there's a lot more in it than we could even say.

876
00:47:50.820 --> 00:47:55.980
We're just touching on the emotional aspects and the construction

877
00:47:55.980 --> 00:48:00.059
when it's a good piece of work, it all comes together perfectly.

878
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:03.360
So I suspect we could spend a lot of time on picking this and

879
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:05.519
finding metaphors for the truth of life.

880
00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:38.460
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

881
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:41.400
We will be back next week to drop round to James Corden's place to

882
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:43.679
ruin his life in the lodger.

883
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:47.400
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

884
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:49.739
and you can keep up with us at flights through entirety on

885
00:48:49.739 --> 00:48:53.460
Facebook, at FT podcast on Twitter, and on our website

886
00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:56.760
FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

887
00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:59.880
podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody into Terror.

888
00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:04.440
Until next time, let's hope that we've all remembered to give our

889
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:07.860
beards a trim, the next time we give you a big kiss.

890
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.500
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

891
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:11.280
Good night.

892
00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:12.360
Good night.

893
00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:13.320
Good night.

894
00:49:13.380 --> 00:49:15.000
Does that make Fiona upbeat for this one?

895
00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:23.099
That woman's flight through entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

896
00:49:23.099 --> 00:49:25.320
James Selwood, Richard Stone, and Fiona Tommy.

897
00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:27.179
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

898
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:30.599
This episode, Balancing the Darkness, was recorded on the 14th of

899
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:33.239
February 2021 and released on the 16th of May.

900
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.840
Thank you to everyone who's written in to say that they'd love to

901
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:45.659
arrange for me to wake up to a garden full of sunflowers.

902
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:49.559
They do give me hives and hay fever, though, so I will appreciate

903
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:52.260
the gesture, but you will be sneezed on.

904
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:57.179
What do you think?

905
00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:58.440
I think we've probably got an out.

906
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.840
Fiona, what do you think?

907
00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:04.860
You don't have to anything add anything if you don't have anything

908
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:05.400
to add.

909
00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:08.579
I did, you could not think earlier, but I did.

910
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:09.900
Yeah, because you're the person here with children.

911
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:15.300
Children, one of them fortunately walked in the door quite quietly

912
00:50:15.300 --> 00:50:18.360
earlier after a big night out on the town.

913
00:50:18.420 --> 00:50:19.619
So how time has progressed?

914
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:21.840
There's the sound that you can notice.

915
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:26.820
No, no, that was the dog, the sound that Nathan noticed.

916
00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:31.260
My favourite bit, which we haven't mentioned, this is probably a

917
00:50:31.260 --> 00:50:35.760
tag, is he bitching about Michelangelo and Picasso.

918
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:37.920
Oh, yes.

919
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:40.019
In Gainsborough is a proper painting.

920
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:40.679
Yes, yeah.

921
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:44.579
And then we got the doctor is a little bit of a wine and cheeser

922
00:50:44.579 --> 00:50:46.679
with his mates down at the posh club.

923
00:50:46.739 --> 00:50:48.239
That is funny, isn't it?

924
00:50:48.300 --> 00:50:49.860
Like, it's a very pert we thing to say.

925
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:53.760
Yeah, the whole, the whole thing is about, you know, Vincent being

926
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:56.699
the greatest painting ever and the doctor himself says it later

927
00:50:56.699 --> 00:50:56.940
on.

928
00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:00.599
But when he's by himself in the Tartars, he wants something much

929
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.960
more representational and something with a little bit more sort of

930
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:04.800
painterly skill.

931
00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:06.780
I found Joshua Reynolds missing.

932
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:07.500
You know that?

933
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:08.699
It's funny.

934
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:14.159
Like the Picasso be a ghastly old goat, which I think is very mild

935
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:16.079
actually compared to what he was doing.

936
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:17.519
I like 2 eyes.

937
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:19.500
I don't know the face.

938
00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:22.860
And Michelangelo being a whinge.

939
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:25.800
And it's so shocking too, because whenever the doctor does that

940
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:27.659
sort of name dropping stuff.

941
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:31.260
Normally, it's, you know, you know, I knew Houdini or, you know

942
00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:34.739
like I was great friends with da Vinci or whatever, but it's not, I

943
00:51:34.739 --> 00:51:39.059
met them when they were just intolerable. so funny.

944
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.099
And he's so bored as well.

945
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:43.139
Like, I love how bored he is in that scene.

946
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:44.219
He's just terrific.

947
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:45.719
I love it when he's sort of bored and shot.

948
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:49.139
Yeah, and that comes in later with the power of, was it?

949
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:50.280
What's the episode?

950
00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:52.019
Is it the power of...

951
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:52.860
Three, yeah, yeah.

952
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:57.059
Yeah, how he just kind of goes and paints a fence and mows a lawn

953
00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:57.300
and.

954
00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:04.139
Yeah, which it's lovely, like part of Matt, that whole, how he's

955
00:52:04.139 --> 00:52:07.800
got that real restless energy, like he's just, he's somebody you

956
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:12.900
you can't, and even this, um, Oh, just thinking about too, the

957
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:15.599
vampires of Venice that I'm not sure if you record it or not.

958
00:52:15.659 --> 00:52:20.039
But there's a bit where he sits in that throne and he's just, he

959
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:21.300
doesn't just sit down in the chair.

960
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:25.139
He sits there and he kind of squirms himself in and gets comfy and

961
00:52:25.139 --> 00:52:28.019
yeah, he's sort of someone who's in perpetual motion.

962
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.739
He's never just standing there doing nothing kind of guy.

963
00:52:31.860 --> 00:52:35.280
He's um, got all that. love that physicality.

964
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:39.599
So do I. That is one of the things I love about his doctor.

965
00:52:39.659 --> 00:52:43.019
Yeah, and the floppy hair, that doesn't go.

966
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:44.940
Yeah, stray either.

967
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:46.920
Yeah, that's pretty good.

968
00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:50.460
I love the way he says the word important.

969
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:52.380
Do you listen?

970
00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:55.679
It's my favourite thing about his performances when he says...

971
00:52:55.739 --> 00:52:56.760
It's great.

972
00:52:56.820 --> 00:52:57.659
Oh.

973
00:52:57.659 --> 00:52:59.159
He says important.

974
00:52:59.219 --> 00:53:00.420
I know exactly what you mean.

975
00:53:01.380 --> 00:53:02.760
Yes.

976
00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:04.800
The f the fowls are great.

977
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:07.380
Yeah, it's a T. the properties and all of that.

978
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:10.320
He says it like a posh kid, but I still like it.

979
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:11.760
All right.

980
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:12.539
Love that.

981
00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:14.579
I think we'll wind it up.

982
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:17.639
I'm going to do the thing, and again, it's good night, and then

983
00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:20.219
James, and then Fiona, and then Richard.

984
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:21.119
Yeah, yeah, done.

985
00:53:21.539 --> 00:53:25.019
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.