WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:03:21 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:46.200 Hello, dear Lissa, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that specifically evolved to scuttle up the back of bedroom cupboards. 2 00:00:46.259 --> 00:00:47.520 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:49.979 I'm James I'm Peter. 4 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:50.579 And I'm Max. 5 00:00:50.640 --> 00:01:06.840 Well, it's Christmas Eve in July, and to celebrate, we nipped back in time to bet Stephen Moffatt, 4500 Gideons, that he couldn't write a one hour Christmas special using the word fish in dialogue, an average of once every 76 seconds. 6 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:18.120 And so before we choose one of the 4 of us to put on ice for the next few decades, let's discuss the 1st of 8 Moffat Christmas specials, a Christmas carol. 7 00:01:39.420 --> 00:01:45.239 Let's just start by talking generally how we feel about this one, putting our cards on the table. 8 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:46.079 Max. 9 00:01:46.140 --> 00:01:52.680 How do you think this rates, not just as a Christmas special, but as a Doctor Who episode generally? 10 00:01:53.099 --> 00:02:10.860 This one, for me, has been on such heavy rotation in my life, sort of every Christmas, uh, subsequent from 2010, that it, it's sort of, um, I sort of think of it almost differently because of how much I've seen it. 11 00:02:10.979 --> 00:02:15.180 It's um, for me, it is the best Doctor Who Christmas special. 12 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:26.699 I'm not sure how contentious that is, but for me, it is sort of an easy choice, I think, any festive season, I'm always inclined to watch it. 13 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:40.080 In fact, there were a few years after it 1st broadcast where I would just regularly watch it, uh, because it is so Christmassy and it is sort of so infectiously uh, heartwarming and and beautiful. 14 00:02:40.139 --> 00:02:46.560 I think it's probably the very best Christmas special that Doctor Who has ever produced. 15 00:02:46.740 --> 00:02:49.560 And no, I know, I'm going to say it confidently. 16 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:50.400 It is the best. 17 00:02:50.460 --> 00:02:50.939 It is the best. 18 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:52.740 How do you feel? 19 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:53.159 Peter? 20 00:02:53.219 --> 00:02:54.599 Well, I mean, clearly it's terrible. 21 00:02:54.780 --> 00:02:56.460 I'm kidding. 22 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:58.020 It's not terrible at all really good. 23 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.539 I think I'm absolutely with Max. 24 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:06.900 It's the most consciously Christmassy, I think, of all of the Christmas episodes, and it's got all of those things. 25 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:11.819 It's got the sleighs and the Christmas dinner and, you know, jolly strangers coming down the chimney. 26 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:14.580 I think Moffat has designed it to be that and it works wonderfully. 27 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:17.159 James. 28 00:03:17.219 --> 00:03:19.979 I think you're all wrong I hate it. 29 00:03:19.979 --> 00:03:21.599 It is the best Christmas. 30 00:03:22.259 --> 00:03:25.919 I'm going to make a bold claim. 31 00:03:26.219 --> 00:03:41.639 I think that this has, this is not a contention that I'm going to fight, you know, to the death over, but I think it has a reasonable claim to being the best episode of Doctor Who to date once it's broadcast. 32 00:03:41.699 --> 00:03:44.520 I think it's extremely confident. 33 00:03:44.580 --> 00:04:03.120 It's not the sort of thing that we would want to see every week, but this is Doctor Who does a Disney Christmas movie and it does it incredibly well in a way that's sort of super rewatchable, really, really accessible and just terribly entertaining. did it twice in the last day. 34 00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:06.060 How you holding up? 35 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:07.439 I'm fine. 36 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:17.939 Nathan, I think that's a big call in a year that had time of angels and Pandora opens in it, but I think that's a call you could defend. 37 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:27.240 Yeah, and I think the thing with it that's sort of so impressive is that it, it's sort of working on, like, rewatching it again. 38 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:31.439 You sort of realise how well it's operating on so many different levels. 39 00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:42.060 Like it is, it's obviously an incredibly enjoyable episode for, I think, I think any casual viewer that sort of stumbled upon this would find it delightful. 40 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:54.060 Like, like, I think it is sort of so warm and witty and it's sort of like, you know, like it, it sort of worms under your heart very, very nimbly and it's just very, it's, it's gorgeous. 41 00:04:54.120 --> 00:05:01.379 But I think it also sort of holds up as just an absolutely astonishing episode of Doctor Who on top of that. 42 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:08.759 I think on sort of every possible, um, metro, any possible grade you could you could rank this on. 43 00:05:08.819 --> 00:05:10.920 I think I think it succeeds. 44 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:15.300 I think it's, um, I think Nathan, I think you're, I think you're on the money there. 45 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:22.079 I think it might be, certainly, I think, like, and I love series 5, but I think this bests everything that's come before it as well. 46 00:05:34.139 --> 00:05:36.060 Let me talk about why I think it's a Disney film. 47 00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:43.079 So, we'll just hold to one side the science fiction teaser. 48 00:05:43.139 --> 00:05:49.500 It opens with Murray doing his sort of best Disney music. 49 00:05:49.560 --> 00:06:00.600 We have a very well-respected actor with a posh accent doing a voiceover, giving us background, just like Beauty and the Beast. 50 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:12.959 There is a countdown, like a timer, which punctuates the action in the way that the petals dropping off the rose do in Beauty and the Beast. 51 00:06:13.019 --> 00:06:28.079 We have a sort of rich person who lives quietly in this sort of weird, enchanted castle, you have absolutely classic Disney sidekicks in the shaved headed guys. 52 00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:39.420 You know, they're, they're like the people from Cruella, you know, you have Murray doing his giant choir of ascending chords at the very end. 53 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:47.160 We go, the camera goes down past the castle at the beginning and up past it at the end. 54 00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:50.100 You know, everything is, is there. 55 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:52.439 It's a standalone Disney movie. 56 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:56.100 And it has real ambitions to be like a movie. 57 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.100 The production, I think, is quite incredible. 58 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:01.439 It's absolutely incredible. 59 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:10.319 And we've said this year that Moffat's version of Doctor Who is heading more towards a fairy tale as just a hop, skip, and a jump from a fairy tale to a Disney movie. 60 00:07:10.379 --> 00:07:11.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 61 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:21.959 And it is also explicitly, uh, it's in the title, a riff on a Christmas carol, and it's not just a kind of remake of a Christmas carol. 62 00:07:22.019 --> 00:07:28.199 It's not sort of Scrooge starring Bill Murray or anything, or a Muppet Christmas carol, which is a much better film. 63 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:32.220 It's Doctor Who doing Disney doing dickens. 64 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.540 Doctor Who's old friend, Charles Dickens, in fact. 65 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:43.379 I can't think of anything more moffety than a tagline, like, it's Dickens Christmas carol, but even more timey whimey. 66 00:07:44.459 --> 00:07:51.060 And of course, the doctor gets the idea to do this from a Christmas carol. 67 00:07:51.120 --> 00:08:06.180 You know, there's that very, very cheesy moment where he hears the ding dong merrily on high coming over the speakers and he goes, you know, Amy asks him what the noise is and he says a Christmas carol and he goes, I've got it. 68 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:12.480 You know, like I have to make an evil rich guy, um, uh, be good in time for Christmas. 69 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:13.980 The timing on that. 70 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:14.879 The coming time. 71 00:08:14.939 --> 00:08:15.899 It's brilliant. 72 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:16.560 What's that? 73 00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:17.639 A Christmas Carol. 74 00:08:17.699 --> 00:08:18.060 What? 75 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:19.199 A Christmas cow. 76 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:19.620 What? 77 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:20.459 A Christmas. 78 00:08:20.579 --> 00:08:20.819 Oh. 79 00:08:21.300 --> 00:08:24.839 It's one of Moffat's best dad joke sequences. 80 00:08:24.899 --> 00:08:31.019 But whenever you get the doctor and Amy talking to each other over communicator and not quite understanding each other. 81 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:31.980 It's always comedy gold. 82 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:32.879 Yeah, yeah. 83 00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:33.299 Yeah. 84 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:33.899 Yeah. 85 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:49.080 I mean, it's very like self-reflexive and and sort of like very winking, but it's also, I think, gets back to what you were saying, Nathan, I think, like all last season, which is that Moffatt is sort of continually obsessed with stories. 86 00:08:49.139 --> 00:09:01.500 And in this episode, um, you really get a sense of how, I, I love how the, almost like the kickoff for the the main narrative is the doctor remembering a story. 87 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:15.299 Like, and I think that that works so well in the context of it being a Christmas special as well, and sort of even that sort of the night before Christmas, like the storytelling that is so wrapped up into, you know, Christmas folklore. 88 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:36.600 Um, but it, it is just so definitely and humorously done in that moment, as you guys have said, where we're sort of, it is such like sort of a dialogue with the audience and it's sort of done with such heart and lightness that it is sort of just a perfect way to begin this, um, to begin this journey. 89 00:09:36.659 --> 00:09:56.279 All of the sort of Christmas kind of iconography that we have is sort of, you know, from England in the Victorian era, and so much of it was created by Charles Dickens, that this is kind of the perfect go-to thing to do. 90 00:09:56.340 --> 00:10:00.539 And we have done Charles Dickens at Christmas before in Doctor Who. 91 00:10:00.659 --> 00:10:04.139 But that was sort of comparatively unambitious, I think. 92 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:16.980 But even that is the story of a grumpy and jaded old man who has a supernatural experience and comes away a better person, better, and invigorated as a result. 93 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:23.460 But this has the additional thing, which is present in a Christmas carol, of being political. 94 00:10:23.940 --> 00:10:36.480 And, you know, the very 1st thing that we see Kazranzardic do is he's been delivering that voiceover explaining about the crystal feast and stuff. 95 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:45.299 And the very 1st thing that he does is he interrupts that and turns to some poor people and says, I call it getting something for nothing. 96 00:10:46.019 --> 00:11:00.600 And so this is the story of an evil rich man who exploits these people and doesn't care about their misery, who unleashes the fish upon them, who has a change of harm. 97 00:11:00.659 --> 00:11:06.360 So it's not the sort of Disneyified version of a Christmas carol, which kind of avoids the politics. 98 00:11:06.419 --> 00:11:08.759 It's absolutely there for the politics. 99 00:11:09.179 --> 00:11:13.559 I think because it's what you were saying earlier, Max, there's light and dark. 100 00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:15.899 And Nathan, what you're saying there. 101 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:19.200 This episode works so well because it does have something for everybody. 102 00:11:19.259 --> 00:11:21.779 Like all of the best dog too, and like all of the best Disney. 103 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:27.419 There's something for the kids to enjoy, but there's that whole other layer which you can dig down to. 104 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:28.200 It's really interesting. 105 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:35.879 And just in that that 1st scene we get with Kazrin, um, sorry, Kazran? 106 00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:36.419 Kazran. 107 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.240 Wait, wait, I need to make sure that's Kazran Sardic, is that right? 108 00:11:39.299 --> 00:11:39.960 Kazran. 109 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.360 Yeah, Kazran Scrooge. 110 00:11:42.419 --> 00:11:44.460 Um, and just in the, yeah. 111 00:11:44.820 --> 00:12:18.480 And in that 1st scene with Kazran, like, there's such a beautiful line there with, um, uh, when he sort of, like, complimenting how, how smart the child is, and he says, oh, you must be so irritated, it's just, it's such a, it's such a, it's such like a sort of cartoonish illustration of evil, but it's also just, I mean, it's a combination of the delivery and the writing, but it's just also just so delectable and sort of in exactly that, like a Disney villain way. 112 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.139 And it's massive overcasting, isn't it? 113 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:25.620 I mean, it is quite incredible getting Michael Gambond to do this. 114 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:29.220 And, you know, he is the heart of the thing. 115 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:36.779 He's backgrounded for a little bit in the middle, but he is the main character in a way that the doctor isn't quite. 116 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:44.639 Apparently they said when they were casting it, they were like, oh, you know, it wouldn't be nice to get someone like, you know, a Michael Gambond type person. 117 00:12:44.700 --> 00:12:49.620 And they asked him and they did not expect him to say yes. was like, oh, I love Doctor Who. 118 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:50.159 I'll do it. 119 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:54.179 It's only because Helen Mirren and Joanna Lumley said no. 120 00:12:55.440 --> 00:13:08.039 You know, I think that the entire production takes its cue from the casting of Michael Gambin because not only is it Dickensian, and not only is it Disney Fied, but the whole thing feels like Harry Potter as well. 121 00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:09.059 Yeah, yeah. 122 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.340 Can we shout out to Michael Pickwode? 123 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:13.860 Oh, I mean, how amazing is he? 124 00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:17.460 That street down the planet, which would have been a Cardiff back alley. 125 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:18.779 You know it would have been. 126 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.240 But instead is this bespoke wonderful set with all of those kind of hidden corners and everything. 127 00:13:24.299 --> 00:13:24.899 It looks incredible. 128 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:31.259 I think it actually might be one of those steelworks, again, is just being dressed up to look like it's outside. 129 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:32.399 Oh wow. 130 00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:33.000 Yeah. 131 00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:38.700 Like, I'm pretty sure they went into like a steel mill or paperworks or something. 132 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.220 Well, that was very rude because I'm sure Thomas was asleep there. 133 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:51.480 I think what's particularly kind of incredible is that this is Michael Pickwood's 1st episode, I believe. 134 00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:53.340 I think this is his first. 135 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:59.940 And if you imagine getting the brief that this episode, what this episode will contain. 136 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:09.000 And that, okay, we're going to sort of, we're going to aim at recreating sort of a Dickensian, um, planet, like a human, you know, colony. 137 00:14:09.059 --> 00:14:12.899 We're going to also travel to, we're going to travel to 1950s Hollywood. 138 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.899 We're going to rig up a sort of shark harness. 139 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:22.019 It's sort of a, it's such, it's such a massive bill, even in Doctor Who standards. 140 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.600 I think it's sort of, it's reaching for the stars. 141 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:30.179 And and for this sort of, you know, 1st time out of the park for him to nail it as well as he does. 142 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:36.779 Like there's details in it that I noticed this time round, which I'd never noticed before, which is that older windows have grates on them. 143 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:48.539 Um, I imagine because, you know, people don't want fish coming into their house, uh, like, like, it's like little, there's these tiny little details in it that, that are so wonderful. 144 00:14:48.539 --> 00:15:04.440 And I, and I sort of found this, um, interview with him where he was talking about, There's all these unused props from this production, like there's a painting that references, I think, an old sort of 1800s painting of like an industry, a scene of industry. 145 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:07.679 I think it's called the birth of Sardic town, was the name of this prop. 146 00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:14.639 And it was an idea that it was this sort of like beautifully sort of romanticised vision of where Sardic Town came from. 147 00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:18.899 And it was just, it was just made, but never, never made it like on screen. 148 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.779 And it's just this incredible attention to detail. 149 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:23.100 You can find it online as well. 150 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:26.879 But the attention to detail is just sort of stunning. 151 00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:33.600 Um, speaking of Michael Pickwood, his daughter painted all the paintings that were used. in this episode. 152 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:40.379 So there's a painting of Catherine Jenkins and there's a painting of Elliot, Sardic and stuff like that. 153 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:45.539 And she went on later to be art director on a number of stories. 154 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:46.139 Right. 155 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:47.100 That's really interesting. 156 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.659 And Max, you're so right. 157 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.580 It's not just about the design, it's about the dressing. 158 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.799 This is an incredibly well dressed episode. 159 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:54.840 Yeah, but there's so much detail. 160 00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:55.860 Like even that drawer. 161 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:57.299 I noticed the drawer this time. 162 00:15:57.419 --> 00:16:03.120 Like, the way that it conveys what Sardic is thinking is through props. 163 00:16:03.179 --> 00:16:05.700 So rather than having him deliver dialogue. 164 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:12.179 So much of it is just conveyed from the fact that we just get to see him sort of leafing through old photos and stuff like that. 165 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:27.840 And even when he pulls the drawer open, You know, there's a moment where we think that, um, young Kasran is going to kind of rebel against his father and he opens a draw to get the half of the screwdriver out. 166 00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:32.279 And the draw has a little arc de Triomphe there and a little Empire State building in it. 167 00:16:32.340 --> 00:16:36.179 And it's just all so thoughtfully done and so carefully done. 168 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.139 It's terrific. 169 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:59.759 Let's just go back to the precredits teaser, and it's something that I talked about in last week's FTE. 170 00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:04.259 It's Rory and Amy in their sex clothes on the Bridge of the Enterprise. 171 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:05.460 I love that. 172 00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:07.140 The galaxy class ship indeed. 173 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.000 And the whole thing is just sort of played wonderfully for comedy, I think. 174 00:17:15.059 --> 00:17:27.779 And also, it reiterates the importance of Amy and Rory, even though they're going to be sort of shunted off to the side for much of this. front and centre, which is really nice. 175 00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:39.900 And there's a little detail that came out in there was a tweet along, I think, around Christmas last year where Stephen Moffat sort of tweeted along with the episode. 176 00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:55.079 And he sort of detailed the sort of embarrassing phone call that he had to make or text, I think, to Karen and Arthur about sort of apologising for basically sort of, you know, taking them out of an entire episode. 177 00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:04.140 And he said, and he said, that's basically was my sort of, you know, 8 or 9 years in charge, sort of summed up in a phone call, just, I'm, I'm, I'm so sorry. 178 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:05.579 I'm really, really sorry, but... 179 00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:10.140 I think it works really well, though. 180 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:14.940 And it does get to, uh, Doctor Who he sort of send up. 181 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.359 It is Doctor Who is better than Star Trek in a way. 182 00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:25.319 So this is Doctor Who doing Star Trek. but being sort of cooler and more fabulous than Star Trek, I think. 183 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:29.160 And it's more Star Trek than you think, because not only have they got the J.J. 184 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:30.420 Abrams lens flag. 185 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.700 Oh, yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say. 186 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:39.900 But also, playing the captain is the wonderfully named Pookie Quennell, who, you know, that could only be a Voyager alien. 187 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.579 Captain, I'm beaming aboard the Pookie Quennell. 188 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:50.039 I want I want an entire miniseries based on Pookie Quenel. 189 00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:52.680 It's just one of the best names. 190 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:54.359 I think I sent you a message. 191 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:55.500 I sent you a message, Nathan. 192 00:18:55.559 --> 00:19:01.380 As soon as it popped up on the screen as the credits were rolling, I just had to pause everything and learn everything. 193 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.859 I had to learn everything I could about Pookie Quinnell. 194 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:05.400 Isn't it? 195 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:08.940 Got her name is so fantastic, isn't it? 196 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.880 Isn't that something that you put on a plate from a fancy restaurant? 197 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:24.900 The best thing about it is that there is a kind of, you know, there's a kind of mid-20th century design that we sort of go to just to indicate the sort of past on television. 198 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:37.259 And, you know, there's sort of Victorian cyberpunk stuff down on the planet, but Kasherine Sardic, when he's in his pyjamas, his sort of classic, you know, 1950s sort of styling. 199 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:43.500 And here, Pookie Cornell has my mother's hair and I am absolutely here for it. 200 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:54.119 I think she's like Janeway, but with sort of fabulous sort of 60s hair and the wonderful rocking from side to side, which is better than they ever did on Voyager. 201 00:19:55.740 --> 00:20:04.980 It is, it's terribly fun, and of course, it presents us with the sort of big moral dilemma that the doctor faces, and he makes it very clear. 202 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:17.579 He has to get a bad man to be kind on Christmas Day, a bad man who doesn't care about letting 4000 people die. 203 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.359 He has to persuade him to do the right thing. 204 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:29.640 And I think that there are people who are anxious about the approach that the doctor takes. 205 00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:47.460 I think I said this to you at the time that I had problems with the taking somebody's life and completely rewriting it for your own ends, even if those ends that you are pursuing are ethically the right thing to do. 206 00:20:47.460 --> 00:20:48.480 Yeah. 207 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:51.900 And certainly, he makes that point himself, doesn't he? 208 00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:57.779 Isn't the heart of the episode that that's what he sets out to do, but that's not actually what he ends up doing. 209 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:05.759 He ends up saving the day, as it were, by just showing young Kasran, what he would become rather than changing old Kasran. 210 00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:06.420 Yeah. 211 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:07.319 Yeah. 212 00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:09.960 And I think that that that's it. 213 00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:18.779 So, so we have a problem, I think, and it's a sort of Cantian ethical problem of treating someone as a means to an end. 214 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:32.099 And so rewriting his history is a problem because we're not primarily doing that to benefit him, we're primarily doing it to save these other people, right? 215 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.339 And so he actually objects to that. 216 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:40.140 Like, Catherine Zardic himself complains that the doctor has rewritten his history. 217 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:44.279 Um, and and that he's been used. 218 00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:46.079 He's been kind of rewritten. 219 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:57.180 And I think, you know, there is something about that, but I don't think that it stands up to scrutiny in this episode. 220 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:13.440 And I think part of the reason is that if the doctor had just got a big gun and pulled it on Kazherine Sardic and said, operate the thing or I will shoot you and anyone who tries to stop me, that that would have been completely ethically defensible behaviour. 221 00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:19.440 But the trouble with it is it wouldn't have been fun and it wouldn't have been what the doctor does. 222 00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:21.000 It wouldn't have been Doctor Who. 223 00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:22.619 No, it wouldn't have been a good story. 224 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:23.519 Right. 225 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:24.779 So we needed a better story. 226 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.119 It possibly would have been a good Star Trek episode. 227 00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:29.160 Yeah, a good Eric Saywood episode. 228 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:32.400 Sorry, a what? 229 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.059 I don't understand what you're saying. 230 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:41.160 And I do I agree because I think that there is... 231 00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:55.799 I mean, look, I think there's sort of murkiness, if you, like, sort of, I think take this too far, but, but, but, like, I think ultimately, um, although he objects to being used to this end. 232 00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.619 He is also a beneficiary of this. 233 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:05.759 Like, he has become, he has become, as of kinder person, um, at the end of this process. 234 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:11.460 And, and, and obviously, that is a sort of slightly icky if you delve into it too much. 235 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:21.900 But I think, I think the script and the production's strength really is in sort of highlighting the, the, sort of the redemptive arc. 236 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:22.980 And I think you're right. 237 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.099 I think obviously it wouldn't have been an interesting story. 238 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:31.680 Um, and so much of it is hinging on this Decensian story. 239 00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:36.180 And that is obviously where Moffatt found his inspiration for this, for this as well. 240 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:45.480 But I do think that where Kasaran arrives at in the final act of this, I think, I think, sort of does justify the means in some respect. 241 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.880 And as well. 242 00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:50.940 I think the point that Peter made is right as well. 243 00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:10.140 It looks like the doctor's intention is originally that he will go back to the night that Kasran's father hit him because he'd already kind of noted that that was an important thing was that he couldn't hit the boy. 244 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:19.440 He says goodbye to Catherine Sardic at the end of that magnificent scene at the beginning of the episode where he 1st sort of turns up down the chimney. 245 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:20.400 Showcase for Matt. 246 00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.140 Yeah, absolute showcase, Matt. 247 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.500 And he says, you're a bit like Christmas halfway out of the dark. 248 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:29.880 He's already recognised that Sardic isn't completely evil. 249 00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:35.460 And so he rummages around in his past, finds this thing where he was hit as a boy. 250 00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.700 The reason that he couldn't hit the kid. 251 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.019 And it goes back to try and make that better, you know? 252 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:50.339 And so he's the ghost of Christmas past and he's trying to make a lonely, sad boy happier. 253 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.940 And he's a boy who doesn't have a story about the fish. 254 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:57.660 And so the doctor goes back to give him a story about the fish. 255 00:24:57.720 --> 00:24:58.559 That's right. 256 00:24:58.619 --> 00:25:03.900 And I don't think the criticism really holds up because the doctor is not forcing Kazran into any of these decisions. 257 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:05.400 He's just showing him a better path. 258 00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:07.680 Yeah, he's being nice to him, essentially. 259 00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:11.400 And it doesn't really matter whether you're nice to someone in the past or the present. 260 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:13.799 There's no ethical distinction. 261 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.700 There are no ethical rules about time travel because it's not real. 262 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:22.259 So it's not wrong to go back in time to be nice to someone. 263 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:23.700 Do you know what I mean? 264 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:36.240 So what he does is goes back and gives him a story and gives him an incredible story. you know, and those scenes are just absolutely marvellous. 265 00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:38.160 It's what Rose says in Parting of the Ways. 266 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:39.180 He shows you a better life. 267 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:40.619 Yeah, yeah. 268 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.140 And I think that there's a... 269 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:50.700 I mean, looking at that that sort of amazing sort of jaw-dropping um introduction to the doctor um in this episode as well. 270 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.880 Like there's, there's so much going on there as well. 271 00:25:53.940 --> 00:26:07.319 But the thing that sort of stuck out to me again was, was the Sherlock parallel, which, which is obviously just, which I think is lent into, I, I'm not sure where this fell in production or whether it even would have been, um, Sherlock would have aired by this point. 272 00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:31.440 But instead of the doctor having this sort of this hyperactive sleuthing moment, and this very performative sleuthing moment in front of the family that is still there and still watching, where you get the sense of the doctor in this scene is, both equally trying to understand Kazaran because he knows that Kazaran is, is his soul for this situation. 273 00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:36.240 It's the way he can save Amy and Rory and the 4000 people on the ship. 274 00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:49.980 Um, but he's also that, that part of the doctor's personality, which is showing people a better way, showing, showing how sort of you can be, you can be clever and funny and get under people's skin, um, which is which is so lovely. 275 00:26:50.039 --> 00:27:03.119 And I actually think it's almost my favourite sort of sleuthing scene that Moffat's haven't written, in fact, like that, that, the little, the little notes about the chair being turned away from the portrait, um, I just, I just so, the cherry on top of the cake. 276 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:04.680 It's just it's just such a great scene. 277 00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:11.460 And and it's kind of an important part of where he comes to the conclusion of what he has to do. 278 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:18.000 The way that he feels about his father is absolutely key to kind of solving the problem, I think. 279 00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:23.519 So where does this come with Sherlock's history of broadcast, James? 280 00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:30.059 So Sherlock broadcast on the 25th of July 2010 was the 1st episode. 281 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:35.460 So it was, yes, this, and this was filmed mid 2010. 282 00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:47.160 And I think we had already seen, therefore, we'd seen Matt sleuthing in the 11th hour where he draws that conclusion about Rory by seeing Rory looking at his phone. 283 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:53.819 And then we get this again and it's clearly a Sherlock reference because he's aware that people have seen Sherlock by this point. 284 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:58.140 Also, isn't there an anecdote about... 285 00:27:58.140 --> 00:28:00.119 They were almost cast the other way around. 286 00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:05.339 I think they got it the right way, right? 287 00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.339 Yeah, I'm so glad we got Matt and not Benedict. 288 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:09.299 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 289 00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:10.500 But they did. 290 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:18.539 I'm pretty sure they did see them both for Doctor Who and then they cast Benedict for Sherlock. 291 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.920 Yeah, I think I think Matt has that kind of awkward fun. 292 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:25.559 You know, like cumberbatch isn't fun. 293 00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.619 Yeah, he's an eccentric actor, but he's not a lively actor. 294 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:29.460 Yeah, yeah. 295 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:34.259 It's so nice that this is a Christmas special because you have the time to explore that scene at the start. 296 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.599 It's a long and important scene. 297 00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:40.440 And I think in a regular 42 minute episode, there just wouldn't have been room for it. 298 00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:52.319 It gets out of control, though, doesn't it? 299 00:28:52.380 --> 00:29:02.220 What the doctor's plan is is to make that night better, to give him a story, to comfort him after he's been hit by his father. 300 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:04.500 And it kind of gets out of control. 301 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:12.059 Firstly, because um, they meet the shark, uh, who is canonically called Jessica. 302 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:14.940 I've decided. 303 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:24.900 And apparently the shark changed gender behind the scenes, they gave it the like one name and then another name and... 304 00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:26.339 It's referred to as her, though. 305 00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:28.920 Little Catherine calls it her. 306 00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:30.660 So Jessica, I think, absolutely. 307 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.200 It was just supposed to have the last shot with the caption Finn over it. 308 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:42.480 That was inspired by Moffatt's childhood fears of sharks. 309 00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:50.700 He had a fear that sharks would somehow get out of the ocean and come and eat him and they were hiding under his bed. 310 00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:52.079 It could still happen. 311 00:29:55.559 --> 00:30:06.059 But it kind of gets out of hand because it's actually Catherine, who says to Abigail that the doctor promises to come back every Christmas. 312 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:11.160 You know, it's his idea and then the whole thing just kind of gets out of hand. 313 00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:17.519 And that wonderful montage where they keep revisiting Abigail and opening up doctor, doctor. 314 00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:19.140 And eventually, Casra. 315 00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:22.619 He got hot in those 12 moments. 316 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:41.400 But it's like a fez and it's like bow ties and now we're wearing Tom Baker scarves and like the whole thing is so sort of fun and wonderful and madcap and it just becomes the doctor kind of taking it too far and sort of getting out of control because he's an idiot. 317 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:50.759 But what he does is he gives young Kazran a fantastic life, a just a series of wonderful Christmas Eve. 318 00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:57.599 Yeah, and the thing that almost doesn't save the day is the fact that he did make Kazran a better person. 319 00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:06.180 And then circumstances outside the control, Abigail's health, the fact that she's dying breaks his heart. 320 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:10.319 And and makes things so much worse. 321 00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:11.099 Yeah. 322 00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:17.039 And, and, and, you know, they say, fantastic line, bear better, broken heart than no heart at all. 323 00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:18.960 Yeah, and he doesn't agree with it. 324 00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:20.759 And so it doesn't work. 325 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:30.720 The doctor's interference gets us back to exactly the same place where we started, except now he's not heartless because he's been abused by his father and left on his own. 326 00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:39.000 He's now heartless because he's had this sort of love affair that has ended in sort of terrible tragedy. 327 00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:45.240 And part of me wonders if this happens sequentially in the doctor's timeline. 328 00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:51.480 So if he's come back every Christmas as the doctor, or if he's had all of these Christmases one after the other and now hates Christmas. 329 00:31:53.220 --> 00:32:01.799 I mean, well, there's also, and I didn't notice it when I was watching the story the 1st time around. 330 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:11.400 There are all these little hints dropped in throughout the episode that you would miss on the 1st viewing about her, about her health. 331 00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:12.660 She's about to say something. 332 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:19.799 Like, you know, they keep focussing on the timer on the cabinet that she's in. 333 00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:29.759 There are moments when they're like she's about to reveal that she's sick and they just like the moments are missed. 334 00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:35.759 There's a thing where she, where the doctor says he's the doctor and she says, are you one of mine? 335 00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:40.200 And then he gets busy with the fish outside or whatever and so it never gets addressed. 336 00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:44.759 And I think it's actually it relies on us to pay attention. 337 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:53.819 We never stop and say she has a terrible illness until much later, but we know, like we know what that countdown means. 338 00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:57.000 There's a lot of, there's a lot of trust. 339 00:32:57.059 --> 00:33:08.579 What struck me as well watching it again was that there's so much sort of trust that Moffatt is placing in the audience in picking up these little details. 340 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:29.759 Like I, I, I, I think he is an incredibly talented writer and you can see it in this episode in the way that the plot moves out of these different um time streams of so nimbly and he's got the, the, so framing device of old Kazran sort of going through the photos and and watching, watching the old home videos to sort of help him. 341 00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:31.619 On Doctor Who's give a show projector. 342 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:35.160 But I love I love those bits. 343 00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:41.160 Like, I love where you're sort of getting Michael Gambon to react to a Doctor Who episode, basically. 344 00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:47.759 Like, it's almost like, he's almost watching this, this little mini, mini, these mini adventures with us. 345 00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:58.079 And that, and that scene that introduces us to that framing device where, um, it's all that one shot of the projected bedroom with um, young Kazran sobbing. 346 00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:05.279 And then the doctor walks out and it's in this, it's contained within the same shot and then the TARDIS arrives and he leaps out of it. 347 00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:15.000 And it's just, um, actually, I just think like the, the, the way Stevens managed to sort of balance all this in a very like user friendly way. 348 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.340 Like, it's still incredibly clear what's happening. 349 00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:25.320 But at the same time, giving us all these hints that do require you to be super on it and to be picking up all these clues. 350 00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:28.559 It's just sort of him operating at 11, I think. 351 00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:32.820 I think it really is just like a powerhouse of a script, this one. 352 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:41.699 The thing I find beautiful about this episode is that Kasran discovers his life at the same time that it's happening in the past. 353 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:51.840 He discovers his memories, not because he's forgotten them because they didn't exist anymore, but he's actually discovering his own life at the same time we are. 354 00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:57.780 And like the framing mechanism, the photos, he sees his photos they are new, but they're old. 355 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.840 It's like it's like, no, I really love this episode. 356 00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:17.760 You kind of think in a in a story that didn't have time travel, what we would have had would be that Catherine had forgotten his past and then we would get a flashback in which we and he rediscovered it. 357 00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:30.000 And so what the doctor is doing in a way is just causing a flashback to happen, that the doctor's time travel ability is really an ability to manipulate story. 358 00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:37.320 And so the whole flashback sequence happens and is only possible because the doctor can travel in time. 359 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.860 It's Dickens a Christmas carol, but even more timey whimey. 360 00:35:41.699 --> 00:35:45.300 The thing is, it's peculiarly suited to dog too, isn't it? 361 00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:50.820 It's very suited to Stephen because I think maybe at times in stories to come. 362 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:59.400 Steven's ability to explain to the audience how quickly and cleverly he's moving might lapse, but in this, he's bang on the money. 363 00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:04.679 You have to keep up just enough to follow it and just enough to be invested in it. 364 00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:05.579 Yeah. 365 00:36:05.579 --> 00:36:25.920 I mean, there's that wonderful moment where he has to nip forward in time to hear Catherine shout out the combination to the vault. just about, thanks, and then sort of heads back into the flashback, you know, the whole thing is sort of so wonderfully and sort of cleverly done. 366 00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:29.039 And so the Christmas pass thing doesn't work. 367 00:36:29.099 --> 00:36:38.340 The Ghost of Christmas Pass doesn't convince Sardic to unlock the cloud layer and let them through, which is part of the heartbreak of the episode. 368 00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:39.059 Yeah. 369 00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:41.880 And then, of course, we get the ghost of Christmas present. 370 00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:45.539 And I think this is incredibly well done as well. 371 00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:55.980 The point at which Amy arrives, I think it's actually sort of like, I think, almost everyone going through season five. 372 00:36:56.039 --> 00:37:01.800 I've actually come to really love Amy in a way that I didn't. 373 00:37:01.860 --> 00:37:03.780 I know that I didn't when I 1st went through it. 374 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:17.699 Um, and, and I think when she arrives at the point that she arrives in the story, um, I think you are missing Karen, like I think you are sort of, um, really waiting for Amy to show up. 375 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.280 At least I found myself waiting for Amy to show up. 376 00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:48.119 And I think that that is sort of, for me was the moment where I sort of step back a little bit and sort of realised, oh, this, this story is so clever, because you can kind of, you almost forget sort of that, um, that real, like very over the top moment where, you know, Matt Smith is in the chair and he sort of winking as he says, I'm the ghost of Christmas Pass, and you kind of almost forget that structure's even in place because it's so enjoyable. 377 00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:58.019 And then at that point where you realise what's happening and the reality of this sort of doomed ship that's crashing to the on the plant surface. 378 00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:03.900 And, um, I think it's so clever because you kind of have forgotten that it's even coming. 379 00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:20.760 And then, um, I think Karen scenes with, with, um, Michael Gamble are just fantastic and she really, and even that little moment where she sort of, she clocks what the doctor's done, um, to him and, and, and that, that he has changed this, this man completely overnight. 380 00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:38.340 And there's an amazing sincerity in Karen's performance where she says, look, I'm actually really sorry, and I can, I can see that you're going through this, you know, this, this tumultuous night, but, but you just need to think about these 1000s of people that are in danger. 381 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.219 And I think it's such a moment for Karen and she really sells it. 382 00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:41.760 It's great. 383 00:38:42.000 --> 00:39:02.699 I think Pookie has this sort of incredible moment here as well, because initially we see them singing and Karen says they're singing for their lives, and we think that they're singing for their lives, because, you know, they're trying to make Catherine feel guilty. 384 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:14.639 And what we discover is that a whole heap of stuff, the doctor has been doing all this stuff in the background and we don't get to see it, but the doctor has clearly been in communication with Karen and with the spaceship. 385 00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:20.099 He's been encouraging them to sing in order to, you know, unlock the cloud layer. 386 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.699 There's all these things that he's been doing that we haven't been privy to. 387 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:33.840 And again, it just makes him seem incredibly smart that the doctor solves this by being clever and having a brilliant plan. 388 00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:40.559 There's that, I think this is the line that you were reaching for when you brought this up. 389 00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:44.699 There's that wonderful moment, you know, that's all explained to you. 390 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.579 And then Kazran says, why are they still singing? 391 00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:52.860 And the captain says, no one's told them. 392 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:54.900 It's so good. 393 00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.739 Like, and you know, it's such a stupid space catastrophe. 394 00:39:58.800 --> 00:39:59.880 Do you know what I mean? 395 00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:05.760 Like, sure, it's there to kind of motivate the doctor and create the moral dilemma and stuff. 396 00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:14.099 But the way it's presented to us is it's a spaceship full of people that we don't properly see and it's sort of mostly word peril. 397 00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.500 But it really makes us care. 398 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:18.900 Like it actually properly makes us care about it. 399 00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:20.940 It shouldn't be a lyric peril. 400 00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:25.440 It's like a Christmas carol with Nightmare of Eden as a raven sequence. 401 00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:31.679 I was fully prepared to cry a lot in this episode. 402 00:40:31.739 --> 00:40:33.179 I'll let you know. 403 00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:35.099 But I did. 404 00:40:35.159 --> 00:41:00.000 I did, but I also did in a, I did in this, in that scene, which I was not, which, you know, like, I think is probably testament to, um, how well everything's working, that, that, as you say, like this little, this scene that could have easily been word parallel is, is quite an incredibly affecting beat in the story where you even get those just on the monitors, you can see the, the, the passengers just singing. 405 00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:12.300 Um, and I think maybe because, you know, by that stage, we've been introduced, um, to Abigail and and and kind of the importance of music has kind of already been floated in the story. 406 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:18.360 So it sort of feels really kind of thematically cohesive that this is, this is what they're doing. 407 00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:21.719 It doesn't kind of feel, um, sort of treakly or anything. 408 00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:28.500 It feels like really earned because we've heard about like sort of the way the fog works, the way the harmony intersects with that. 409 00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:39.420 It's been really cleverly teased so that when this sort of almost this Christmas coral kind of element comes into it, it sort of feels like all these pieces are locking together really nicely. 410 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:45.239 It's fantastic, that scene too, where the fish keeps biting the doctor. 411 00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:52.380 When the doctor is trying to explain that it doesn't work because Jessica likes the singing. 412 00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:54.420 It's not that Jessica likes the singing. 413 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.000 There are space reasons, right? 414 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:10.920 And he's being bitten because the space reasons explanation is stupid and it's the power of music and it's absolutely magic and the story won't hear any other explanation. 415 00:42:10.980 --> 00:42:13.739 The fish like the singing, shut up. 416 00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:15.480 That's it. 417 00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:17.159 It's absolutely brilliant. 418 00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:26.159 And so, you know, that's leading, obviously, to the denouement with Catherine Jenkins, which is obviously where all 3 of us, 4 of us. 419 00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:29.699 Peter, do you still have a human soul, you can... 420 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.159 I've misleaded again. 421 00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:34.559 So you have to steal others. 422 00:42:34.619 --> 00:42:36.480 Watch out, Jack. 423 00:42:36.539 --> 00:42:38.340 I don't have a soul. 424 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.440 But that was the scene where we all cry. 425 00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:49.019 You know, that dénouement with Catherine Jenkins singing, but it's absolutely, as you said, Max, it's led up to, and it's magic. 426 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:56.699 It is the power of song to solve the, you know, to solve the principal dilemma of the story. 427 00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:58.260 But you know, I didn't cry in that moment. 428 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:06.840 And what I did feel was that pleasantly unpleasant melancholy that you can get at Christmas and that's what infuses this episode. 429 00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:08.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 430 00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:33.420 And I think it's the one that, and I think, you know, I don't want to jump ahead too much to next year's Christmas special, but I, I am of the opinion that it's sort of, um, I think it's nowhere near as good as this, but I think it's sort of often unfairly maligned, and I think that that's special comes close to that feeling again, and I think you can see it in a lot of Moffatt's Christmas specials, which is this, and it's why they, I think they bear repeat watches at Christmas. 431 00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:36.300 They feel right for Christmas is exactly that. 432 00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:47.219 There's sort of an attention to capturing that, um, slight melancholy that's sort of in the best, um, like it's a wonderful life for, or, um, even a Muppets Christmas carol. 433 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:58.139 You know, like there's, there's like that, that feeling is sort of what, um, is what makes this story so right for the holiday for, for the event as well. 434 00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:15.480 You know, I think that the difference that I see with Moffat's Christmas specials is that the story comes out of Christmas, whereas in most of Russell's Christmas Doctor Who's, the Christmas is hung over it like tinsel. 435 00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:16.019 Yeah. 436 00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:18.059 And look, I think that's kind of okay. 437 00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:23.159 I mean, even sometimes Russell's Christmas specials fight against it be Christmas. 438 00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:31.800 I mean, we have to explain in dialogue why on earth of all days Donna is having her wedding on Christmas Eve because no saint. 439 00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:33.300 Blazing sunshine. 440 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:35.880 Because no one would ever do. 441 00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:40.619 So they're not about Christmas, but Moffat really does try to capture the spirit of Christmas. 442 00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:42.059 And sometimes he doesn't bother. 443 00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.719 Like, I don't think return of Dr. Mysterio is particularly about Christmas. 444 00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:49.380 But other, you know, the other ones do tend to be. 445 00:44:49.500 --> 00:45:03.780 But that's what makes this so good because it is about something and it has a character journey in it, which with the best will in the world, I don't think something like a Christmas invasion or Voyage of the Dam does have, even though they're very good in their own ways. 446 00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:05.820 Yeah, and that's not what they're reaching for. 447 00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:06.539 That's right. 448 00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:07.019 Yeah. 449 00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:07.440 Yeah. 450 00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:15.480 I mean, and then, of course, we get the ghost of Christmas future, and it is a classic Moffat turn, isn't it? 451 00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:22.800 And you even have Catherine saying, oh, you're going to take me forward to my future and show me dying alone. 452 00:45:22.860 --> 00:45:24.659 You know, spoiler alert. 453 00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:26.340 I knew that happened anyway. 454 00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:31.260 And then he just says, no, you know, I'm showing you your future now. 455 00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.139 And it's so perfect. 456 00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:39.420 It's so beautiful that I can almost forgive the fact that the Blinovich limitation effect. 457 00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:42.300 No, forget I said that. 458 00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:43.260 I wasn't even thinking about. 459 00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:44.400 No, no, no, I was. 460 00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:47.579 I don't want heartwarming character moments. 461 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:49.019 I want Morden undead. 462 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.579 But I think this is the thing. 463 00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:58.679 Maybe you can read that into the story as well. changed so much. 464 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:04.199 Head Cannon, he's changed so much that he's no longer the same person and therefore can hug himself. 465 00:46:04.260 --> 00:46:06.659 Well, that's teased earlier in the story, isn't it? 466 00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:19.679 And, you know, it's his father hugging him as a kid as well, you know, and him, you know, that thing, I don't know, is it cheesy, but, you know, the... 467 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:25.380 That idea of embracing yourself at different times. 468 00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:26.639 Do you know what I mean? 469 00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:35.219 Like, sometimes people talk about, you know, feeling miserable when they were children and imagining, like, feeling like I would love to give that version of me a hug. 470 00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:38.340 And so there is something sort of super primal about it. 471 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:41.699 And it's him fixing his own problem, isn't it? 472 00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:45.239 It's like it's not the doctor doing it at all. 473 00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:51.960 It's the man who wouldn't hit a kid because he was hit by his father fixing the problem for himself. 474 00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:54.300 It's the end of the happiness patrol, isn't it? 475 00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:55.559 Yeah, it is. 476 00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:56.280 That's what it is. 477 00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:57.780 It's so good. 478 00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:06.300 And I think, like, you know, this is the bit where it, like, truly the floodgates opened and I had a proper ball. 479 00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:15.840 But it's in that, um, it's just in that that 45 seconds where you go from him, almost as a, it's, it's, it's quite scary. actually. 480 00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:21.900 It's almost this reflex at this point where he turns around and sees his younger self. 481 00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.239 And it's sort of not quite clear. 482 00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:32.699 If it's not a reflex, it's sort of not clear what initiates that that impulse to to hit out and to lash out. 483 00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:45.960 Maybe it's of projected at the doctor or whatever, but, but, um, but between that moment and just him, um, sobbing into the arms of like his, you know, his, his younger self. 484 00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:53.820 I think there's something so, um, profound and and, you know, just talking about it makes me kind of tear up. 485 00:47:53.880 --> 00:48:25.260 It's, um, and I think it's sold so well by Michael Gamble, and I'm not sure if now is the time to talk about how, how it truly sort of, phenomenal Michael Gamble is in, is in this, um, but, but, I, I, I think that scene is sort of, is, is so, is so charged with, with so many things, and, and I think probably each time I've, I've seen it, it's brought me to the same kind of, embarrassing solving puddles, but it gets me every time. 486 00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:44.340 See, I always read that scene as, I think you're supposed to read that scene as, um, young Kazran calls old Kazran dad and he goes to hit him because he's not like his dad. like his father, exactly. 487 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.460 And then realising, oh, I am. 488 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:48.480 I am my father. 489 00:48:48.539 --> 00:48:49.500 That could be right. 490 00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:50.400 That could be right. 491 00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:51.000 I think you're right. 492 00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:51.599 Yeah. 493 00:48:51.659 --> 00:48:52.320 Yeah. 494 00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:52.920 Yeah. 495 00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:56.400 It's some it is incredibly charged, as you said. 496 00:48:56.519 --> 00:49:05.340 It's almost like a primal scream before he finally realises that he has to show himself that he should not turn out like he has. 497 00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.900 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 498 00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:10.440 And I just to circle back as well. 499 00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:23.039 I think, I think, um, I mean, I think in the whole, from the 1st scene Michael Gambon's in, he's, um, he's brilliant and he, and he's so funny and he's kind of, he's, he's just his voice in this episode. 500 00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:34.139 I could literally just listen to a recording of him talking throughout this throughout this episode and it would be equally enjoyable, but I think I actually think that he might be the best guest star. 501 00:49:34.260 --> 00:50:08.820 I, I, it's sort of an amazing intersection of, of how big a star he is and how brilliant and clearly, um, there's just, he's sort of giving it absolutely everything and there's no way, like, like, even just the way he watches, um, those projections that I can't imagine, you know, you know, we're there on set or anything, but, but they're so beautiful, and he sort of, he is another actor, like Olivia Coleman, that if they start to cry in something, I will I will be I will be shortly following them. 502 00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:10.739 It's easier. 503 00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:13.079 It's a very graceful performance, isn't it? 504 00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:14.880 Yeah, yeah. 505 00:50:14.940 --> 00:50:20.820 I just, and I think, I think he's so nimble in it as well, because you can see from that 1st scene. 506 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:25.980 He's he's also so great at being this cartoonish kind of Dickensian villain. 507 00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:30.960 Um, and that would have been sort of that would have been a good enough performance by itself. 508 00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:34.440 But sort of by the end of it, he's asked to do a lot in the episode. 509 00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:37.500 He's asked to play, you know, 2 characters as well. 510 00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:47.699 And I think, um, in that final scene where you get him sort of cradling this younger version of him and then, and then also in, uh, interacting with Abigail. 511 00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:51.300 Um, he's just, you know, impossible to look away from. 512 00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:57.239 Well, you say he's a villain, but is he the one of the 1st characters in Doctor Who's both villain and companion in the same story? 513 00:50:57.239 --> 00:50:59.699 Since maybe Turlow or maybe Dodo? 514 00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.000 Like villain, villain, companion, and victim. 515 00:51:03.300 --> 00:51:12.599 All I was thinking while I was watching his performance was, you know, he's agreed to be in the show that brought us nightmare of Eden. 516 00:51:12.780 --> 00:51:15.420 And he's not condescending. 517 00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:17.460 He's not doing a kind of low red version. 518 00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:19.559 He's absolutely keeping it everything he's gone. 519 00:51:35.340 --> 00:51:42.780 You were saying before, Max, um, that it's a really nuanced performance. 520 00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:54.539 I find it incredibly believable that this character, this person, their soul is hanging in the balance. 521 00:51:54.599 --> 00:52:01.980 There's so many moments in this, in this story when, you know, his past is changing in front of his eyes. 522 00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:13.980 You can see he is he's teaching on the precipice, but between being that man who will let 4000 something people die and becoming a better person. 523 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:23.760 Like the duality that he is able to portray, I think, would have failed in a lesser actor. 524 00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:26.579 When you get a movie star, you get all that interiority, don't you? 525 00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:27.480 Yeah, yeah. 526 00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:55.619 And then the performance of him afterwards, like when he goes and speaks to Abigail, and when she tells him how silly he's been, and, and, you know, when he goes up and tries to make the console thing work, and when he's clearly on side with the doctor, it's not just that he's willing to save these people, but he also wants to try and help the doctor to do it when he can't. 527 00:52:55.860 --> 00:53:03.659 I just, it's terribly beautiful because he's not immediately rewarded for being good. 528 00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.659 He loses Abigail. 529 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:08.699 And he'd lost her already, I guess. 530 00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:20.280 You know, she only had one day left no matter how he behaved or what he did, no matter whether he kept her in that fridge until, you know, after he died or whatever. 531 00:53:20.699 --> 00:53:24.719 So maybe his reward, he does get a reward. 532 00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:33.119 He gets one perfect day with the woman that he loves, but it's sort of tinged with heartbreak as well. 533 00:53:33.179 --> 00:53:36.719 Is this a literal fridging? 534 00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:37.320 No. 535 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:41.940 She has to be dead to be dead. 536 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:48.119 It's so nice because it's so nuanced in writing and performance because it's almost like his contact with his younger self. 537 00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:53.519 He sort of visibly sheds years in the points and becomes more childlike himself. 538 00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:55.619 It's very subtle in the performance. 539 00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:10.440 But it's interesting as well what you said, Nathan, about kind of, you know, that one perfect day because is there a river parallel here where the doctor will later put off sending River to the library so that he can have more than just that one day with her? 540 00:54:10.500 --> 00:54:14.639 And it's interesting that they bring in Amy to make that point for Kasran to make that point. 541 00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:18.059 I mean, is all of this in Moffat's mind because it's terribly clever. 542 00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:23.219 Or, I mean, he has a tendency to go back to things that he's done successfully before. 543 00:54:24.539 --> 00:54:27.960 But, I mean, the day that's planned. 544 00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:40.679 And, you know, there's all that sort of silly nonsense with the doctor and the doctor's reunited with Amy and there's the jokes about the snowman, which I think are just sort of absolutely wonderful, he's clearly made 20 snowmen himself. 545 00:54:40.739 --> 00:54:48.599 You know, she says, oh, look, you know, you could almost mistake that for a real person and the snowman's not bad either. 546 00:54:48.719 --> 00:55:00.659 Like there's all these sort of wonderful jokes at the doctor's expense, but then she expresses concern, you know, like that's, and the doctor's reply is so beautiful and it's that thing that I've said before. 547 00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:06.480 He's super awkward and stuff, but he's incredibly wise and it is that everything has to end. 548 00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:09.059 Otherwise nothing could ever begin. 549 00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:20.280 And like that's so sort of cheesy and it is sort of a bit Disney, but it's also beautiful as well and it works thematically with what we've got in the story. 550 00:55:21.059 --> 00:55:23.760 Just tacking onto that as well. 551 00:55:23.820 --> 00:55:45.659 There's there's a follow on from that line that apparently Stephen sort of said in the tweet along that he cut and that he regretted that he cut, which is that snow isn't snow until it falls, or something like that, which is obviously, you know, like, obviously, uh, sort of leaning into that, uh, leaning into that sort of the Disney aspect of it again, but it's, um, it's true. 552 00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:48.960 And I just, just to talk about Matt's performance really quickly. 553 00:55:49.019 --> 00:55:57.840 Like there's, there's, I, I think it's been noted on the podcast before that this is the 1st performance he gives, um, after knowing that he's a hit. 554 00:55:57.900 --> 00:56:08.519 And also, you know, the 1st story that potentially people could come on board with, and obviously with a Christmas special, you get, you get sort of an inflated audience as well. 555 00:56:08.579 --> 00:56:11.039 It's the 1st story where he wasn't a new doctor. 556 00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:11.760 He was the doctor. 557 00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:13.559 Yeah, yeah, precisely. 558 00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:22.139 And just, and I think he's pretty instantly, um, excellent as I think a majority of the podcast has as well. 559 00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:33.960 But also, I think in this episode, you can see just that like everything that was working in series 5 is kind of is is almost operating on an even higher level here. 560 00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:41.460 Like there's, there's, there's a moment earlier in the episode where, um, where Kazran asks sort of quite flippantly, oh, what do you want? 561 00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:56.760 And the doctor's line is a simple life, but it's so, and it's sort of such a throwaway kind of, because, because so much of the, the scene is sort of these sort of like witty retorts and all that kind of stuff, but the way Matt delivers it, is so earnest and, and, um, quiet. 562 00:56:56.820 --> 00:57:06.119 And then he just switches to, he, and he shifts gears into being sort of the threatening, you know, oncoming storm doctor, like a few seconds after that. 563 00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:15.179 But it's just, it's sort of, it's such a perfect illustration of how almost just how flexible and sort of malleable he is in this story. 564 00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:22.260 He is so, I, I think it might be my favourite performance of the doctor, that this particular episode. 565 00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:31.260 Maybe, I think maybe Peter Capaldi has an episode later in later in the show where I think might just top it, but it is, it's extraordinary. 566 00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:32.400 It's extraordinary performance. 567 00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:46.800 And it's so incredible because Matt is delivering that same calibre of performance up against Michael Gambon and against 2 people who've never acted on screen before, Danny Horn, who plays young Kazran and Catherine Jenkins. 568 00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:48.659 And it's just incredible. 569 00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:49.380 Yeah. 570 00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:18.300 Well, new whistler, that's all we have time for, this Christmas in July. 571 00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:24.840 We will be back later in the year to talk about Stephen Moffat's difficult second album, starting with the Impossible Astronaut. 572 00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:39.840 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody Interterra. 573 00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:42.900 Until next time, keep the faith. 574 00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:44.280 Stay off the naughty list. 575 00:58:44.340 --> 00:58:45.780 Thank you very much for listening. 576 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:47.699 Merry Christmas and good night. 577 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:49.079 Ta-ta. 578 00:58:49.139 --> 00:58:49.500 Good night. 579 00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:50.460 See ya. 580 00:58:54.659 --> 00:59:00.900 That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Max Gelbarton, James Selwood. 581 00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:02.940 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam. 582 00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:10.019 This episode, Kasran Scrooge Dick, was recorded on the 21st of June 2021 and released on the 25th of July. 583 00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:22.920 I'd like to dedicate this episode to the memory of Gracie, the lively, angry little terrier who was our friend and companion for more than 20 years, who we said goodbye to earlier this month. 584 00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:24.719 Go well, sweetheart. 585 00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:25.500 I'm sorry. 586 00:59:30.300 --> 00:59:32.159 What do we want to do? 587 00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:32.940 Is that an out? 588 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.079 You know this is still the fifth highest rated story of the new series. 589 00:59:37.139 --> 00:59:38.940 Is it 12.1 million? 590 00:59:39.059 --> 00:59:39.599 Yeah. 591 00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:39.840 12. 592 00:59:40.139 --> 00:59:40.440 Wow. 593 00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:42.900 That's that's massive. 594 00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:48.420 From memory, that was a massive BBC one Christmas 2010. 595 00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:50.579 I think like EastEnders was massive. 596 00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:51.480 Doctor Who was massive. 597 00:59:51.539 --> 00:59:52.380 Was it cold? 598 00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:53.880 Yeah, may have been. 599 00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:58.800 It may actually have been snowing now, I think, back. 600 00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:05.340 That was the thing that I thought of with the snow as well. was just the abortive attempts for it to be snowed. 601 01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:06.179 You know what I mean? 602 01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:07.380 Like the 1st Christmas special. 603 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:12.599 It's just the sicker X spaceship blowing up and then, you know, like it's... something fired into the sky. 604 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.760 It's all fake or whatever. 605 01:00:15.420 --> 01:00:17.280 Bits of food. 606 01:00:17.340 --> 01:00:25.019 And then in the end, the end of time, yeah, it's just, it's just David Tennant's angst to just... 607 01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:27.059 All right. 608 01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:28.199 Well, I think we did okay. 609 01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:28.980 What do you reckon? 610 01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:30.420 Is there anything? 611 01:00:30.420 --> 01:00:33.179 Seeing if there's anything that you can use? 612 01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:35.820 We're doing it now, darling. 613 01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:40.920 You know, the one thing that I thought throughout, even though Catherine Jenkins is amazing is Abigail. 614 01:00:40.980 --> 01:00:43.079 I thought if it hadn't already happened. 615 01:00:43.139 --> 01:00:47.460 What a brilliant marriage this episode would have been between Dr. and Kylie Minogue. 616 01:00:51.420 --> 01:00:56.519 I love Kylie, but Catherine Jenkins's voice. you know what I mean? 617 01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:59.519 And frankly, Catherine Jenkins is a better act. 618 01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:01.860 Oh wow. 619 01:01:02.579 --> 01:01:04.980 Have you never seen Street Fighter? 620 01:01:05.460 --> 01:01:07.619 Yes, unfortunately. 621 01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:11.880 She is so good in this, Catherine Jenkins. 622 01:01:11.940 --> 01:01:27.420 Like, I, I, um, the, there was a, not to keep on talking about the tweet along, but, but Matt Smith on Twitter, um, sort of, I think, sort of, had several tweets where he was just glowing of Catherine Jenkins about her performance. 623 01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:37.260 And I think it's, it is sort of miraculously good for someone acting on screen for the 1st time. 624 01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:45.179 And I think that, you know, that final song, both the testament to her and to Murray, is, is, is so beautiful. 625 01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:51.420 Like we've been we've been pretty lucky with our Doctor Who Christmas songs before, but I think this one is sort of on another level. 626 01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:53.340 It's so good. 627 01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:55.739 Murray's on, he's incredible. 628 01:01:55.800 --> 01:02:16.500 And what's surprising about that is that he didn't have very long to write the song. had been approached by the production team and and told, you know, oh, we need a song. and and then, you know, they left it for a while and came back and it's like, oh, we really need that song. 629 01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:18.659 And then, you know, they explained to me what it was about. 630 01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:20.519 He was like, oh, I better go write that then. 631 01:02:21.059 --> 01:02:24.599 Did he put silence in there as a kind of thing? 632 01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:26.940 Oh, that is unclear. 633 01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:32.940 They recorded it, the demo. 634 01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:37.199 Like was almost perfect because, you know, it's Catherine Jenkins. 635 01:02:37.260 --> 01:02:52.079 And then he went back and reorchestrated that end scene with Sorry, he went back and re, not orchestrated what I'm for, rearranged. 636 01:02:52.139 --> 01:03:03.780 So he then went back and rearranged the song for the National Orchestra of Wales so that it heightened that scene even more. 637 01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:10.019 It was supposed to be quite sparse initially and they gave it all the swelling. 638 01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:11.639 They have to, because that's the thing. 639 01:03:11.699 --> 01:03:15.719 You know, it's the, it's the music that, that, you know. 640 01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:18.840 And she's done it as well. 641 01:03:18.900 --> 01:03:19.500 Yeah. 642 01:03:19.500 --> 01:03:21.719 It's the thing about Catherine Jenkins. 643 01:03:21.780 --> 01:03:33.179 She does have a beautiful voice and, you know, we get to hear that and that's obviously why she's being cast, but because she is a fresh performer, It's remarkably uncynical performance and I think it infuses the entire episode. 644 01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:35.159 We love it because it's not a cynical episode. 645 01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:38.460 All right. 646 01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:40.260 I'll do an out trade. 647 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:41.159 I think that was good. 648 01:03:41.219 --> 01:03:44.099 We'll just, um, we'll go with that and I think that's a tag.