WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:29:38

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Hello, dear Lissa, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast that specifically evolved to scuttle up

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the back of bedroom cupboards.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James I'm Peter.

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And I'm Max.

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Well, it's Christmas Eve in July, and to celebrate, we nipped back

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in time to bet Stephen Moffatt, 4500 Gideons, that he couldn't

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write a one hour Christmas special using the word fish in dialogue

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an average of once every 76 seconds.

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And so before we choose one of the 4 of us to put on ice for the

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next few decades, let's discuss the 1st of 8 Moffat Christmas

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specials, a Christmas carol.

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Let's just start by talking generally how we feel about this one

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putting our cards on the table.

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Max.

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How do you think this rates, not just as a Christmas special, but

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as a Doctor Who episode generally?

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This one, for me, has been on such heavy rotation in my life, sort

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of every Christmas, uh, subsequent from 2010, that it, it's sort

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of, um, I sort of think of it almost differently because of how

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much I've seen it.

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It's um, for me, it is the best Doctor Who Christmas special.

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I'm not sure how contentious that is, but for me, it is sort of an

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easy choice, I think, any festive season, I'm always inclined to

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watch it.

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In fact, there were a few years after it 1st broadcast where I

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would just regularly watch it, uh, because it is so Christmassy

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and it is sort of so infectiously uh, heartwarming and and

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beautiful.

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I think it's probably the very best Christmas special that Doctor

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Who has ever produced.

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And no, I know, I'm going to say it confidently.

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It is the best.

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It is the best.

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How do you feel?

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Peter?

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Well, I mean, clearly it's terrible.

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I'm kidding.

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It's not terrible at all really good.

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I think I'm absolutely with Max.

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It's the most consciously Christmassy, I think, of all of the

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Christmas episodes, and it's got all of those things.

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It's got the sleighs and the Christmas dinner and, you know, jolly

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strangers coming down the chimney.

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I think Moffat has designed it to be that and it works

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wonderfully.

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James.

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I think you're all wrong I hate it.

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It is the best Christmas.

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I'm going to make a bold claim.

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I think that this has, this is not a contention that I'm going to

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fight, you know, to the death over, but I think it has a

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reasonable claim to being the best episode of Doctor Who to date

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once it's broadcast.

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I think it's extremely confident.

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It's not the sort of thing that we would want to see every week

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but this is Doctor Who does a Disney Christmas movie and it does

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it incredibly well in a way that's sort of super rewatchable

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really, really accessible and just terribly entertaining. did it

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twice in the last day.

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How you holding up?

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I'm fine.

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Nathan, I think that's a big call in a year that had time of

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angels and Pandora opens in it, but I think that's a call you

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could defend.

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Yeah, and I think the thing with it that's sort of so impressive

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is that it, it's sort of working on, like, rewatching it again.

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You sort of realise how well it's operating on so many different

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levels.

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Like it is, it's obviously an incredibly enjoyable episode for, I

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think, I think any casual viewer that sort of stumbled upon this

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would find it delightful.

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Like, like, I think it is sort of so warm and witty and it's sort

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of like, you know, like it, it sort of worms under your heart very

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very nimbly and it's just very, it's, it's gorgeous.

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But I think it also sort of holds up as just an absolutely

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astonishing episode of Doctor Who on top of that.

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I think on sort of every possible, um, metro, any possible grade

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you could you could rank this on.

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I think I think it succeeds.

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I think it's, um, I think Nathan, I think you're, I think you're

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on the money there.

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I think it might be, certainly, I think, like, and I love series 5

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but I think this bests everything that's come before it as well.

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Let me talk about why I think it's a Disney film.

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So, we'll just hold to one side the science fiction teaser.

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It opens with Murray doing his sort of best Disney music.

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We have a very well-respected actor with a posh accent doing a

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voiceover, giving us background, just like Beauty and the Beast.

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There is a countdown, like a timer, which punctuates the action in

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the way that the petals dropping off the rose do in Beauty and the

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Beast.

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We have a sort of rich person who lives quietly in this sort of

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weird, enchanted castle, you have absolutely classic Disney

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sidekicks in the shaved headed guys.

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You know, they're, they're like the people from Cruella, you know

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you have Murray doing his giant choir of ascending chords at the

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very end.

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We go, the camera goes down past the castle at the beginning and

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up past it at the end.

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You know, everything is, is there.

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It's a standalone Disney movie.

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And it has real ambitions to be like a movie.

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The production, I think, is quite incredible.

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It's absolutely incredible.

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And we've said this year that Moffat's version of Doctor Who is

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heading more towards a fairy tale as just a hop, skip, and a jump

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from a fairy tale to a Disney movie.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And it is also explicitly, uh, it's in the title, a riff on a

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Christmas carol, and it's not just a kind of remake of a Christmas

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carol.

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It's not sort of Scrooge starring Bill Murray or anything, or a

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Muppet Christmas carol, which is a much better film.

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It's Doctor Who doing Disney doing dickens.

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Doctor Who's old friend, Charles Dickens, in fact.

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I can't think of anything more moffety than a tagline, like, it's

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Dickens Christmas carol, but even more timey whimey.

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And of course, the doctor gets the idea to do this from a

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Christmas carol.

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You know, there's that very, very cheesy moment where he hears the

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ding dong merrily on high coming over the speakers and he goes, you

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know, Amy asks him what the noise is and he says a Christmas carol

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and he goes, I've got it.

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You know, like I have to make an evil rich guy, um, uh, be good in

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time for Christmas.

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The timing on that.

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The coming time.

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It's brilliant.

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What's that?

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A Christmas Carol.

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What?

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A Christmas cow.

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What?

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A Christmas.

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Oh.

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It's one of Moffat's best dad joke sequences.

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But whenever you get the doctor and Amy talking to each other over

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communicator and not quite understanding each other.

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It's always comedy gold.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's very like self-reflexive and and sort of like very

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winking, but it's also, I think, gets back to what you were saying

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Nathan, I think, like all last season, which is that Moffatt is

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sort of continually obsessed with stories.

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And in this episode, um, you really get a sense of how, I, I love

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how the, almost like the kickoff for the the main narrative is the

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doctor remembering a story.

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Like, and I think that that works so well in the context of it

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being a Christmas special as well, and sort of even that sort of

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the night before Christmas, like the storytelling that is so

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wrapped up into, you know, Christmas folklore.

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Um, but it, it is just so definitely and humorously done in that

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moment, as you guys have said, where we're sort of, it is such

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like sort of a dialogue with the audience and it's sort of done

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with such heart and lightness that it is sort of just a perfect

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way to begin this, um, to begin this journey.

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All of the sort of Christmas kind of iconography that we have is

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sort of, you know, from England in the Victorian era, and so much

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of it was created by Charles Dickens, that this is kind of the

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perfect go-to thing to do.

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And we have done Charles Dickens at Christmas before in Doctor

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Who.

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But that was sort of comparatively unambitious, I think.

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But even that is the story of a grumpy and jaded old man who has a

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supernatural experience and comes away a better person, better, and

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invigorated as a result.

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But this has the additional thing, which is present in a Christmas

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carol, of being political.

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And, you know, the very 1st thing that we see Kazranzardic do is

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he's been delivering that voiceover explaining about the crystal

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feast and stuff.

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And the very 1st thing that he does is he interrupts that and

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turns to some poor people and says, I call it getting something

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for nothing.

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And so this is the story of an evil rich man who exploits these

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people and doesn't care about their misery, who unleashes the fish

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upon them, who has a change of harm.

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So it's not the sort of Disneyified version of a Christmas carol

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which kind of avoids the politics.

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It's absolutely there for the politics.

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I think because it's what you were saying earlier, Max, there's

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light and dark.

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And Nathan, what you're saying there.

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This episode works so well because it does have something for

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everybody.

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Like all of the best dog too, and like all of the best Disney.

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There's something for the kids to enjoy, but there's that whole

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other layer which you can dig down to.

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It's really interesting.

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And just in that that 1st scene we get with Kazrin, um, sorry

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Kazran?

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Kazran.

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Wait, wait, I need to make sure that's Kazran Sardic, is that

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right?

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Kazran.

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Yeah, Kazran Scrooge.

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Um, and just in the, yeah.

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And in that 1st scene with Kazran, like, there's such a beautiful

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line there with, um, uh, when he sort of, like, complimenting how

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how smart the child is, and he says, oh, you must be so irritated

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it's just, it's such a, it's such a, it's such like a sort of

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cartoonish illustration of evil, but it's also just, I mean, it's

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a combination of the delivery and the writing, but it's just also

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just so delectable and sort of in exactly that, like a Disney

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villain way.

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And it's massive overcasting, isn't it?

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I mean, it is quite incredible getting Michael Gambond to do

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this.

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And, you know, he is the heart of the thing.

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He's backgrounded for a little bit in the middle, but he is the

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main character in a way that the doctor isn't quite.

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Apparently they said when they were casting it, they were like, oh

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you know, it wouldn't be nice to get someone like, you know, a

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Michael Gambond type person.

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And they asked him and they did not expect him to say yes. was

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like, oh, I love Doctor Who.

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I'll do it.

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It's only because Helen Mirren and Joanna Lumley said no.

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You know, I think that the entire production takes its cue from

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the casting of Michael Gambin because not only is it Dickensian

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and not only is it Disney Fied, but the whole thing feels like

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Harry Potter as well.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Can we shout out to Michael Pickwode?

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Oh, I mean, how amazing is he?

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That street down the planet, which would have been a Cardiff back

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alley.

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You know it would have been.

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But instead is this bespoke wonderful set with all of those kind

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of hidden corners and everything.

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It looks incredible.

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I think it actually might be one of those steelworks, again, is

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just being dressed up to look like it's outside.

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Oh wow.

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Yeah.

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Like, I'm pretty sure they went into like a steel mill or

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paperworks or something.

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Well, that was very rude because I'm sure Thomas was asleep

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there.

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I think what's particularly kind of incredible is that this is

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Michael Pickwood's 1st episode, I believe.

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I think this is his first.

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And if you imagine getting the brief that this episode, what this

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00:13:58.919 --> 00:13:59.940
episode will contain.

249
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.059
And that, okay, we're going to sort of, we're going to aim at

250
00:14:03.059 --> 00:14:07.740
recreating sort of a Dickensian, um, planet, like a human, you

251
00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:09.000
know, colony.

252
00:14:09.059 --> 00:14:12.299
We're going to also travel to, we're going to travel to 1950s

253
00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:12.899
Hollywood.

254
00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.899
We're going to rig up a sort of shark harness.

255
00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:21.120
It's sort of a, it's such, it's such a massive bill, even in

256
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:22.019
Doctor Who standards.

257
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.600
I think it's sort of, it's reaching for the stars.

258
00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:28.559
And and for this sort of, you know, 1st time out of the park for

259
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:30.179
him to nail it as well as he does.

260
00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.759
Like there's details in it that I noticed this time round, which

261
00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:36.360
I'd never noticed before, which is that older windows have grates

262
00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:36.779
on them.

263
00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:41.100
Um, I imagine because, you know, people don't want fish coming

264
00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:44.700
into their house, uh, like, like, it's like little, there's these

265
00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:48.539
tiny little details in it that, that are so wonderful.

266
00:14:48.539 --> 00:14:52.080
And I, and I sort of found this, um, interview with him where he

267
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:56.220
was talking about, There's all these unused props from this

268
00:14:56.220 --> 00:14:59.639
production, like there's a painting that references, I think, an

269
00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:04.080
old sort of 1800s painting of like an industry, a scene of

270
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:04.440
industry.

271
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:07.200
I think it's called the birth of Sardic town, was the name of this

272
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:07.679
prop.

273
00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:11.100
And it was an idea that it was this sort of like beautifully sort

274
00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:14.639
of romanticised vision of where Sardic Town came from.

275
00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:18.179
And it was just, it was just made, but never, never made it like

276
00:15:18.179 --> 00:15:18.899
on screen.

277
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.779
And it's just this incredible attention to detail.

278
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:23.100
You can find it online as well.

279
00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:26.879
But the attention to detail is just sort of stunning.

280
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:31.799
Um, speaking of Michael Pickwood, his daughter painted all the

281
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.600
paintings that were used. in this episode.

282
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:38.399
So there's a painting of Catherine Jenkins and there's a painting

283
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:40.379
of Elliot, Sardic and stuff like that.

284
00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:45.539
And she went on later to be art director on a number of stories.

285
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:46.139
Right.

286
00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:47.100
That's really interesting.

287
00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.659
And Max, you're so right.

288
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.580
It's not just about the design, it's about the dressing.

289
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.799
This is an incredibly well dressed episode.

290
00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:54.840
Yeah, but there's so much detail.

291
00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:55.860
Like even that drawer.

292
00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:57.299
I noticed the drawer this time.

293
00:15:57.419 --> 00:16:02.399
Like, the way that it conveys what Sardic is thinking is through

294
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:03.120
props.

295
00:16:03.179 --> 00:16:05.700
So rather than having him deliver dialogue.

296
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.179
So much of it is just conveyed from the fact that we just get to

297
00:16:09.179 --> 00:16:12.179
see him sort of leafing through old photos and stuff like that.

298
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.440
And even when he pulls the drawer open, You know, there's a moment

299
00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:23.220
where we think that, um, young Kasran is going to kind of rebel

300
00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:26.820
against his father and he opens a draw to get the half of the

301
00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:27.840
screwdriver out.

302
00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:30.840
And the draw has a little arc de Triomphe there and a little

303
00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:32.279
Empire State building in it.

304
00:16:32.340 --> 00:16:36.179
And it's just all so thoughtfully done and so carefully done.

305
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.139
It's terrific.

306
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:56.820
Let's just go back to the precredits teaser, and it's something

307
00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:59.759
that I talked about in last week's FTE.

308
00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:03.659
It's Rory and Amy in their sex clothes on the Bridge of the

309
00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:04.259
Enterprise.

310
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:05.460
I love that.

311
00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:07.140
The galaxy class ship indeed.

312
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.579
And the whole thing is just sort of played wonderfully for comedy

313
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:15.000
I think.

314
00:17:15.059 --> 00:17:22.259
And also, it reiterates the importance of Amy and Rory, even

315
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:24.900
though they're going to be sort of shunted off to the side for

316
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:27.779
much of this. front and centre, which is really nice.

317
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:33.299
And there's a little detail that came out in there was a tweet

318
00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:37.140
along, I think, around Christmas last year where Stephen Moffat

319
00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:39.900
sort of tweeted along with the episode.

320
00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:44.940
And he sort of detailed the sort of embarrassing phone call that

321
00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:50.460
he had to make or text, I think, to Karen and Arthur about sort of

322
00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:54.119
apologising for basically sort of, you know, taking them out of an

323
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:55.079
entire episode.

324
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:58.740
And he said, and he said, that's basically was my sort of, you

325
00:17:58.740 --> 00:18:02.460
know, 8 or 9 years in charge, sort of summed up in a phone call

326
00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:04.140
just, I'm, I'm, I'm so sorry.

327
00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:05.579
I'm really, really sorry, but...

328
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:10.140
I think it works really well, though.

329
00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:14.940
And it does get to, uh, Doctor Who he sort of send up.

330
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.359
It is Doctor Who is better than Star Trek in a way.

331
00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:23.160
So this is Doctor Who doing Star Trek. but being sort of cooler

332
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.319
and more fabulous than Star Trek, I think.

333
00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:28.259
And it's more Star Trek than you think, because not only have they

334
00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:29.160
got the J.J.

335
00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:30.420
Abrams lens flag.

336
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.700
Oh, yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say.

337
00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:36.599
But also, playing the captain is the wonderfully named Pookie

338
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.900
Quennell, who, you know, that could only be a Voyager alien.

339
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.579
Captain, I'm beaming aboard the Pookie Quennell.

340
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:50.039
I want I want an entire miniseries based on Pookie Quenel.

341
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:52.680
It's just one of the best names.

342
00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:54.359
I think I sent you a message.

343
00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:55.500
I sent you a message, Nathan.

344
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.380
As soon as it popped up on the screen as the credits were rolling

345
00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:01.380
I just had to pause everything and learn everything.

346
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.859
I had to learn everything I could about Pookie Quinnell.

347
00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:05.400
Isn't it?

348
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:08.940
Got her name is so fantastic, isn't it?

349
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.400
Isn't that something that you put on a plate from a fancy

350
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:11.880
restaurant?

351
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:17.880
The best thing about it is that there is a kind of, you know

352
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.880
there's a kind of mid-20th century design that we sort of go to

353
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.900
just to indicate the sort of past on television.

354
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:29.640
And, you know, there's sort of Victorian cyberpunk stuff down on

355
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:33.480
the planet, but Kasherine Sardic, when he's in his pyjamas, his

356
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.259
sort of classic, you know, 1950s sort of styling.

357
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:42.359
And here, Pookie Cornell has my mother's hair and I am absolutely

358
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:43.500
here for it.

359
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:48.480
I think she's like Janeway, but with sort of fabulous sort of 60s

360
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:52.559
hair and the wonderful rocking from side to side, which is better

361
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.119
than they ever did on Voyager.

362
00:19:55.740 --> 00:20:00.839
It is, it's terribly fun, and of course, it presents us with the

363
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.500
sort of big moral dilemma that the doctor faces, and he makes it

364
00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:04.980
very clear.

365
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:13.619
He has to get a bad man to be kind on Christmas Day, a bad man who

366
00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:17.579
doesn't care about letting 4000 people die.

367
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.359
He has to persuade him to do the right thing.

368
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:28.259
And I think that there are people who are anxious about the

369
00:20:28.259 --> 00:20:29.640
approach that the doctor takes.

370
00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:34.500
I think I said this to you at the time that I had problems with

371
00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:40.559
the taking somebody's life and completely rewriting it for your

372
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:46.079
own ends, even if those ends that you are pursuing are ethically

373
00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:47.460
the right thing to do.

374
00:20:47.460 --> 00:20:48.480
Yeah.

375
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:51.900
And certainly, he makes that point himself, doesn't he?

376
00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:55.980
Isn't the heart of the episode that that's what he sets out to do

377
00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:57.779
but that's not actually what he ends up doing.

378
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.200
He ends up saving the day, as it were, by just showing young

379
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:05.759
Kasran, what he would become rather than changing old Kasran.

380
00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:06.420
Yeah.

381
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:07.319
Yeah.

382
00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:09.960
And I think that that that's it.

383
00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:14.160
So, so we have a problem, I think, and it's a sort of Cantian

384
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.779
ethical problem of treating someone as a means to an end.

385
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:25.019
And so rewriting his history is a problem because we're not

386
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:30.299
primarily doing that to benefit him, we're primarily doing it to

387
00:21:30.299 --> 00:21:32.099
save these other people, right?

388
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.339
And so he actually objects to that.

389
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.880
Like, Catherine Zardic himself complains that the doctor has

390
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:40.140
rewritten his history.

391
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:44.279
Um, and and that he's been used.

392
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:46.079
He's been kind of rewritten.

393
00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:51.240
And I think, you know, there is something about that, but I don't

394
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:57.180
think that it stands up to scrutiny in this episode.

395
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.019
And I think part of the reason is that if the doctor had just got

396
00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:06.299
a big gun and pulled it on Kazherine Sardic and said, operate the

397
00:22:06.299 --> 00:22:10.680
thing or I will shoot you and anyone who tries to stop me, that

398
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.440
that would have been completely ethically defensible behaviour.

399
00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:17.759
But the trouble with it is it wouldn't have been fun and it

400
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:19.440
wouldn't have been what the doctor does.

401
00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:21.000
It wouldn't have been Doctor Who.

402
00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:22.619
No, it wouldn't have been a good story.

403
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:23.519
Right.

404
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:24.779
So we needed a better story.

405
00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.119
It possibly would have been a good Star Trek episode.

406
00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:29.160
Yeah, a good Eric Saywood episode.

407
00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:32.400
Sorry, a what?

408
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.059
I don't understand what you're saying.

409
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:41.160
And I do I agree because I think that there is...

410
00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:45.359
I mean, look, I think there's sort of murkiness, if you, like, sort

411
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:50.759
of, I think take this too far, but, but, but, like, I think

412
00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:55.799
ultimately, um, although he objects to being used to this end.

413
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.619
He is also a beneficiary of this.

414
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:04.200
Like, he has become, he has become, as of kinder person, um, at

415
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:05.759
the end of this process.

416
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.500
And, and, and obviously, that is a sort of slightly icky if you

417
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:11.460
delve into it too much.

418
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.599
But I think, I think the script and the production's strength

419
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:20.940
really is in sort of highlighting the, the, sort of the redemptive

420
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:21.900
arc.

421
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:22.980
And I think you're right.

422
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.099
I think obviously it wouldn't have been an interesting story.

423
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:31.680
Um, and so much of it is hinging on this Decensian story.

424
00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:35.339
And that is obviously where Moffatt found his inspiration for this

425
00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:36.180
for this as well.

426
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:41.579
But I do think that where Kasaran arrives at in the final act of

427
00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:45.240
this, I think, I think, sort of does justify the means in some

428
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:45.480
respect.

429
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.880
And as well.

430
00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:50.940
I think the point that Peter made is right as well.

431
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.920
It looks like the doctor's intention is originally that he will go

432
00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:04.019
back to the night that Kasran's father hit him because he'd

433
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:09.240
already kind of noted that that was an important thing was that he

434
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:10.140
couldn't hit the boy.

435
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.220
He says goodbye to Catherine Sardic at the end of that magnificent

436
00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:18.240
scene at the beginning of the episode where he 1st sort of turns

437
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:19.440
up down the chimney.

438
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:20.400
Showcase for Matt.

439
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.140
Yeah, absolute showcase, Matt.

440
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.500
And he says, you're a bit like Christmas halfway out of the dark.

441
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:29.880
He's already recognised that Sardic isn't completely evil.

442
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:34.259
And so he rummages around in his past, finds this thing where he

443
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:35.460
was hit as a boy.

444
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.700
The reason that he couldn't hit the kid.

445
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.019
And it goes back to try and make that better, you know?

446
00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:47.220
And so he's the ghost of Christmas past and he's trying to make a

447
00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:50.339
lonely, sad boy happier.

448
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.940
And he's a boy who doesn't have a story about the fish.

449
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:57.660
And so the doctor goes back to give him a story about the fish.

450
00:24:57.720 --> 00:24:58.559
That's right.

451
00:24:58.619 --> 00:25:01.200
And I don't think the criticism really holds up because the doctor

452
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.900
is not forcing Kazran into any of these decisions.

453
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:05.400
He's just showing him a better path.

454
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:07.680
Yeah, he's being nice to him, essentially.

455
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.319
And it doesn't really matter whether you're nice to someone in the

456
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:11.400
past or the present.

457
00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:13.799
There's no ethical distinction.

458
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.339
There are no ethical rules about time travel because it's not

459
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:17.700
real.

460
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:22.259
So it's not wrong to go back in time to be nice to someone.

461
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:23.700
Do you know what I mean?

462
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:29.759
So what he does is goes back and gives him a story and gives him

463
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:34.440
an incredible story. you know, and those scenes are just

464
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:36.240
absolutely marvellous.

465
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:38.160
It's what Rose says in Parting of the Ways.

466
00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:39.180
He shows you a better life.

467
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:40.619
Yeah, yeah.

468
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.140
And I think that there's a...

469
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.859
I mean, looking at that that sort of amazing sort of jaw-dropping

470
00:25:46.859 --> 00:25:50.700
um introduction to the doctor um in this episode as well.

471
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.880
Like there's, there's so much going on there as well.

472
00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:57.119
But the thing that sort of stuck out to me again was, was the

473
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.420
Sherlock parallel, which, which is obviously just, which I think

474
00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:03.900
is lent into, I, I'm not sure where this fell in production or

475
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:06.960
whether it even would have been, um, Sherlock would have aired by

476
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:07.319
this point.

477
00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:12.480
But instead of the doctor having this sort of this hyperactive

478
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:17.099
sleuthing moment, and this very performative sleuthing moment in

479
00:26:17.099 --> 00:26:21.180
front of the family that is still there and still watching, where

480
00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:26.220
you get the sense of the doctor in this scene is, both equally

481
00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:30.059
trying to understand Kazaran because he knows that Kazaran is, is

482
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:31.440
his soul for this situation.

483
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:35.940
It's the way he can save Amy and Rory and the 4000 people on the

484
00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:36.240
ship.

485
00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:40.920
Um, but he's also that, that part of the doctor's personality

486
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.339
which is showing people a better way, showing, showing how sort of

487
00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:47.640
you can be, you can be clever and funny and get under people's

488
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.980
skin, um, which is which is so lovely.

489
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.099
And I actually think it's almost my favourite sort of sleuthing

490
00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:56.279
scene that Moffat's haven't written, in fact, like that, that, the

491
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:58.740
little, the little notes about the chair being turned away from

492
00:26:58.740 --> 00:27:02.880
the portrait, um, I just, I just so, the cherry on top of the

493
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:03.119
cake.

494
00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:04.680
It's just it's just such a great scene.

495
00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:10.019
And and it's kind of an important part of where he comes to the

496
00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:11.460
conclusion of what he has to do.

497
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:16.200
The way that he feels about his father is absolutely key to kind

498
00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:18.000
of solving the problem, I think.

499
00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:23.160
So where does this come with Sherlock's history of broadcast

500
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:23.519
James?

501
00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:29.579
So Sherlock broadcast on the 25th of July 2010 was the 1st

502
00:27:29.579 --> 00:27:30.059
episode.

503
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:35.460
So it was, yes, this, and this was filmed mid 2010.

504
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:40.440
And I think we had already seen, therefore, we'd seen Matt

505
00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:44.220
sleuthing in the 11th hour where he draws that conclusion about

506
00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:47.160
Rory by seeing Rory looking at his phone.

507
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:50.880
And then we get this again and it's clearly a Sherlock reference

508
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.819
because he's aware that people have seen Sherlock by this point.

509
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:58.140
Also, isn't there an anecdote about...

510
00:27:58.140 --> 00:28:00.119
They were almost cast the other way around.

511
00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:05.339
I think they got it the right way, right?

512
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.339
Yeah, I'm so glad we got Matt and not Benedict.

513
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:09.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

514
00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:10.500
But they did.

515
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:15.779
I'm pretty sure they did see them both for Doctor Who and then

516
00:28:15.779 --> 00:28:18.539
they cast Benedict for Sherlock.

517
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.920
Yeah, I think I think Matt has that kind of awkward fun.

518
00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:25.559
You know, like cumberbatch isn't fun.

519
00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.619
Yeah, he's an eccentric actor, but he's not a lively actor.

520
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:29.460
Yeah, yeah.

521
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.400
It's so nice that this is a Christmas special because you have the

522
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.259
time to explore that scene at the start.

523
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.599
It's a long and important scene.

524
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:39.599
And I think in a regular 42 minute episode, there just wouldn't

525
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:40.440
have been room for it.

526
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:52.319
It gets out of control, though, doesn't it?

527
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:59.099
What the doctor's plan is is to make that night better, to give

528
00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:02.220
him a story, to comfort him after he's been hit by his father.

529
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:04.500
And it kind of gets out of control.

530
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:10.920
Firstly, because um, they meet the shark, uh, who is canonically

531
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:12.059
called Jessica.

532
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:14.940
I've decided.

533
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:21.599
And apparently the shark changed gender behind the scenes, they

534
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:24.900
gave it the like one name and then another name and...

535
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:26.339
It's referred to as her, though.

536
00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:28.920
Little Catherine calls it her.

537
00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:30.660
So Jessica, I think, absolutely.

538
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.539
It was just supposed to have the last shot with the caption Finn

539
00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:34.200
over it.

540
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:42.480
That was inspired by Moffatt's childhood fears of sharks.

541
00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:47.579
He had a fear that sharks would somehow get out of the ocean and

542
00:29:47.579 --> 00:29:50.700
come and eat him and they were hiding under his bed.

543
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:52.079
It could still happen.

544
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:59.940
But it kind of gets out of hand because it's actually Catherine

545
00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:05.460
who says to Abigail that the doctor promises to come back every

546
00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:06.059
Christmas.

547
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:10.440
You know, it's his idea and then the whole thing just kind of gets

548
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:11.160
out of hand.

549
00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:15.539
And that wonderful montage where they keep revisiting Abigail and

550
00:30:15.539 --> 00:30:17.519
opening up doctor, doctor.

551
00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:19.140
And eventually, Casra.

552
00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:22.619
He got hot in those 12 moments.

553
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:27.420
But it's like a fez and it's like bow ties and now we're wearing

554
00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:31.980
Tom Baker scarves and like the whole thing is so sort of fun and

555
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:36.900
wonderful and madcap and it just becomes the doctor kind of taking

556
00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:40.980
it too far and sort of getting out of control because he's an

557
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:41.400
idiot.

558
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:48.180
But what he does is he gives young Kazran a fantastic life, a just

559
00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:50.759
a series of wonderful Christmas Eve.

560
00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:55.559
Yeah, and the thing that almost doesn't save the day is the fact

561
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:57.599
that he did make Kazran a better person.

562
00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:03.359
And then circumstances outside the control, Abigail's health, the

563
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.180
fact that she's dying breaks his heart.

564
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:10.319
And and makes things so much worse.

565
00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:11.099
Yeah.

566
00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:15.839
And, and, and, you know, they say, fantastic line, bear better

567
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:17.039
broken heart than no heart at all.

568
00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:18.960
Yeah, and he doesn't agree with it.

569
00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:20.759
And so it doesn't work.

570
00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:24.420
The doctor's interference gets us back to exactly the same place

571
00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:28.559
where we started, except now he's not heartless because he's been

572
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:30.720
abused by his father and left on his own.

573
00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:35.400
He's now heartless because he's had this sort of love affair that

574
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:39.000
has ended in sort of terrible tragedy.

575
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:43.619
And part of me wonders if this happens sequentially in the

576
00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:45.240
doctor's timeline.

577
00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:48.539
So if he's come back every Christmas as the doctor, or if he's had

578
00:31:48.539 --> 00:31:50.880
all of these Christmases one after the other and now hates

579
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:51.480
Christmas.

580
00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:59.579
I mean, well, there's also, and I didn't notice it when I was

581
00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:01.799
watching the story the 1st time around.

582
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.539
There are all these little hints dropped in throughout the episode

583
00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:10.559
that you would miss on the 1st viewing about her, about her

584
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:11.400
health.

585
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:12.660
She's about to say something.

586
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:19.079
Like, you know, they keep focussing on the timer on the cabinet

587
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:19.799
that she's in.

588
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:25.680
There are moments when they're like she's about to reveal that

589
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:29.759
she's sick and they just like the moments are missed.

590
00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:33.660
There's a thing where she, where the doctor says he's the doctor

591
00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:35.759
and she says, are you one of mine?

592
00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:39.299
And then he gets busy with the fish outside or whatever and so it

593
00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:40.200
never gets addressed.

594
00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:44.759
And I think it's actually it relies on us to pay attention.

595
00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:49.140
We never stop and say she has a terrible illness until much later

596
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:53.819
but we know, like we know what that countdown means.

597
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:57.000
There's a lot of, there's a lot of trust.

598
00:32:57.059 --> 00:33:00.660
What struck me as well watching it again was that there's so much

599
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:07.380
sort of trust that Moffatt is placing in the audience in picking

600
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:08.579
up these little details.

601
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:13.140
Like I, I, I, I think he is an incredibly talented writer and you

602
00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:16.380
can see it in this episode in the way that the plot moves out of

603
00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:21.779
these different um time streams of so nimbly and he's got the, the

604
00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:25.619
so framing device of old Kazran sort of going through the photos

605
00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:29.519
and and watching, watching the old home videos to sort of help

606
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:29.759
him.

607
00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:31.619
On Doctor Who's give a show projector.

608
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:35.160
But I love I love those bits.

609
00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:39.420
Like, I love where you're sort of getting Michael Gambon to react

610
00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:41.160
to a Doctor Who episode, basically.

611
00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:45.059
Like, it's almost like, he's almost watching this, this little

612
00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:47.759
mini, mini, these mini adventures with us.

613
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.599
And that, and that scene that introduces us to that framing device

614
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:56.759
where, um, it's all that one shot of the projected bedroom with um

615
00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:58.079
young Kazran sobbing.

616
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:02.039
And then the doctor walks out and it's in this, it's contained

617
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:04.920
within the same shot and then the TARDIS arrives and he leaps out

618
00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:05.279
of it.

619
00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:09.480
And it's just, um, actually, I just think like the, the, the way

620
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:13.920
Stevens managed to sort of balance all this in a very like user

621
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:15.000
friendly way.

622
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.340
Like, it's still incredibly clear what's happening.

623
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.360
But at the same time, giving us all these hints that do require

624
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:25.320
you to be super on it and to be picking up all these clues.

625
00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:28.559
It's just sort of him operating at 11, I think.

626
00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:32.699
I think it really is just like a powerhouse of a script, this

627
00:34:32.699 --> 00:34:32.820
one.

628
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:38.340
The thing I find beautiful about this episode is that Kasran

629
00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:41.400
discovers his life at the same time that it's happening in the

630
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:41.699
past.

631
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:47.280
He discovers his memories, not because he's forgotten them because

632
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:50.280
they didn't exist anymore, but he's actually discovering his own

633
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:51.840
life at the same time we are.

634
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:56.699
And like the framing mechanism, the photos, he sees his photos

635
00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:57.780
they are new, but they're old.

636
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.840
It's like it's like, no, I really love this episode.

637
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:05.039
You kind of think in a in a story that didn't have time travel

638
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:10.619
what we would have had would be that Catherine had forgotten his

639
00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:16.679
past and then we would get a flashback in which we and he

640
00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:17.760
rediscovered it.

641
00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:22.800
And so what the doctor is doing in a way is just causing a

642
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.420
flashback to happen, that the doctor's time travel ability is

643
00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:30.000
really an ability to manipulate story.

644
00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:35.099
And so the whole flashback sequence happens and is only possible

645
00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:37.320
because the doctor can travel in time.

646
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.860
It's Dickens a Christmas carol, but even more timey whimey.

647
00:35:41.699 --> 00:35:45.300
The thing is, it's peculiarly suited to dog too, isn't it?

648
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.659
It's very suited to Stephen because I think maybe at times in

649
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:50.820
stories to come.

650
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.840
Steven's ability to explain to the audience how quickly and

651
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:59.159
cleverly he's moving might lapse, but in this, he's bang on the

652
00:35:59.159 --> 00:35:59.400
money.

653
00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:03.900
You have to keep up just enough to follow it and just enough to be

654
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:04.679
invested in it.

655
00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:05.579
Yeah.

656
00:36:05.579 --> 00:36:09.960
I mean, there's that wonderful moment where he has to nip forward

657
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:15.119
in time to hear Catherine shout out the combination to the vault

658
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:20.280
just about, thanks, and then sort of heads back into the flashback

659
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:25.260
you know, the whole thing is sort of so wonderfully and sort of

660
00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:25.920
cleverly done.

661
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:29.039
And so the Christmas pass thing doesn't work.

662
00:36:29.099 --> 00:36:34.500
The Ghost of Christmas Pass doesn't convince Sardic to unlock the

663
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:37.860
cloud layer and let them through, which is part of the heartbreak

664
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:38.340
of the episode.

665
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:39.059
Yeah.

666
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:41.880
And then, of course, we get the ghost of Christmas present.

667
00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:45.539
And I think this is incredibly well done as well.

668
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:53.099
The point at which Amy arrives, I think it's actually sort of like

669
00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:55.980
I think, almost everyone going through season five.

670
00:36:56.039 --> 00:37:01.800
I've actually come to really love Amy in a way that I didn't.

671
00:37:01.860 --> 00:37:03.780
I know that I didn't when I 1st went through it.

672
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:09.059
Um, and, and I think when she arrives at the point that she

673
00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:13.500
arrives in the story, um, I think you are missing Karen, like I

674
00:37:13.500 --> 00:37:17.699
think you are sort of, um, really waiting for Amy to show up.

675
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.280
At least I found myself waiting for Amy to show up.

676
00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:25.679
And I think that that is sort of, for me was the moment where I

677
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:29.940
sort of step back a little bit and sort of realised, oh, this, this

678
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:34.139
story is so clever, because you can kind of, you almost forget

679
00:37:34.139 --> 00:37:39.059
sort of that, um, that real, like very over the top moment where

680
00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:42.780
you know, Matt Smith is in the chair and he sort of winking as he

681
00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:45.179
says, I'm the ghost of Christmas Pass, and you kind of almost

682
00:37:45.179 --> 00:37:48.119
forget that structure's even in place because it's so enjoyable.

683
00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:52.500
And then at that point where you realise what's happening and the

684
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:57.300
reality of this sort of doomed ship that's crashing to the on the

685
00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:58.019
plant surface.

686
00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:02.699
And, um, I think it's so clever because you kind of have forgotten

687
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:03.900
that it's even coming.

688
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:08.099
And then, um, I think Karen scenes with, with, um, Michael Gamble

689
00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:11.340
are just fantastic and she really, and even that little moment

690
00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:16.139
where she sort of, she clocks what the doctor's done, um, to him

691
00:38:16.139 --> 00:38:19.860
and, and, and that, that he has changed this, this man completely

692
00:38:19.860 --> 00:38:20.760
overnight.

693
00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:24.480
And there's an amazing sincerity in Karen's performance where she

694
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:28.380
says, look, I'm actually really sorry, and I can, I can see that

695
00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:33.360
you're going through this, you know, this, this tumultuous night

696
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.559
but, but you just need to think about these 1000s of people that

697
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:38.340
are in danger.

698
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.219
And I think it's such a moment for Karen and she really sells it.

699
00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:41.760
It's great.

700
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.719
I think Pookie has this sort of incredible moment here as well

701
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:52.920
because initially we see them singing and Karen says they're

702
00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:56.400
singing for their lives, and we think that they're singing for

703
00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:01.440
their lives, because, you know, they're trying to make Catherine

704
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:02.699
feel guilty.

705
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.179
And what we discover is that a whole heap of stuff, the doctor has

706
00:39:06.179 --> 00:39:09.599
been doing all this stuff in the background and we don't get to

707
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:12.900
see it, but the doctor has clearly been in communication with

708
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:14.639
Karen and with the spaceship.

709
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:19.139
He's been encouraging them to sing in order to, you know, unlock

710
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:20.099
the cloud layer.

711
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:22.800
There's all these things that he's been doing that we haven't been

712
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:23.699
privy to.

713
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:30.179
And again, it just makes him seem incredibly smart that the doctor

714
00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:33.840
solves this by being clever and having a brilliant plan.

715
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:38.940
There's that, I think this is the line that you were reaching for

716
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:40.559
when you brought this up.

717
00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:43.679
There's that wonderful moment, you know, that's all explained to

718
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:44.699
you.

719
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.579
And then Kazran says, why are they still singing?

720
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:52.860
And the captain says, no one's told them.

721
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:54.900
It's so good.

722
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.739
Like, and you know, it's such a stupid space catastrophe.

723
00:39:58.800 --> 00:39:59.880
Do you know what I mean?

724
00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:04.320
Like, sure, it's there to kind of motivate the doctor and create

725
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:05.760
the moral dilemma and stuff.

726
00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:10.380
But the way it's presented to us is it's a spaceship full of

727
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:13.380
people that we don't properly see and it's sort of mostly word

728
00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:14.099
peril.

729
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.500
But it really makes us care.

730
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:18.900
Like it actually properly makes us care about it.

731
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:20.940
It shouldn't be a lyric peril.

732
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:24.840
It's like a Christmas carol with Nightmare of Eden as a raven

733
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:25.440
sequence.

734
00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:31.679
I was fully prepared to cry a lot in this episode.

735
00:40:31.739 --> 00:40:33.179
I'll let you know.

736
00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:35.099
But I did.

737
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:39.179
I did, but I also did in a, I did in this, in that scene, which I

738
00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:43.019
was not, which, you know, like, I think is probably testament to

739
00:40:43.019 --> 00:40:47.699
um, how well everything's working, that, that, as you say, like

740
00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:50.940
this little, this scene that could have easily been word parallel

741
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:55.860
is, is quite an incredibly affecting beat in the story where you

742
00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:58.860
even get those just on the monitors, you can see the, the, the

743
00:40:58.860 --> 00:41:00.000
passengers just singing.

744
00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:04.139
Um, and I think maybe because, you know, by that stage, we've been

745
00:41:04.139 --> 00:41:09.000
introduced, um, to Abigail and and and kind of the importance of

746
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.300
music has kind of already been floated in the story.

747
00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:16.199
So it sort of feels really kind of thematically cohesive that this

748
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:18.360
is, this is what they're doing.

749
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:21.719
It doesn't kind of feel, um, sort of treakly or anything.

750
00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:24.780
It feels like really earned because we've heard about like sort of

751
00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:28.500
the way the fog works, the way the harmony intersects with that.

752
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:32.460
It's been really cleverly teased so that when this sort of almost

753
00:41:32.460 --> 00:41:37.079
this Christmas coral kind of element comes into it, it sort of

754
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.420
feels like all these pieces are locking together really nicely.

755
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:44.400
It's fantastic, that scene too, where the fish keeps biting the

756
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:45.239
doctor.

757
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:50.400
When the doctor is trying to explain that it doesn't work because

758
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.380
Jessica likes the singing.

759
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:54.420
It's not that Jessica likes the singing.

760
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.000
There are space reasons, right?

761
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:02.460
And he's being bitten because the space reasons explanation is

762
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:07.920
stupid and it's the power of music and it's absolutely magic and

763
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.920
the story won't hear any other explanation.

764
00:42:10.980 --> 00:42:13.739
The fish like the singing, shut up.

765
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:15.480
That's it.

766
00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:17.159
It's absolutely brilliant.

767
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:21.539
And so, you know, that's leading, obviously, to the denouement

768
00:42:21.539 --> 00:42:25.860
with Catherine Jenkins, which is obviously where all 3 of us, 4 of

769
00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:26.159
us.

770
00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:29.699
Peter, do you still have a human soul, you can...

771
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.159
I've misleaded again.

772
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:34.559
So you have to steal others.

773
00:42:34.619 --> 00:42:36.480
Watch out, Jack.

774
00:42:36.539 --> 00:42:38.340
I don't have a soul.

775
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.440
But that was the scene where we all cry.

776
00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:44.340
You know, that dénouement with Catherine Jenkins singing, but it's

777
00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:49.019
absolutely, as you said, Max, it's led up to, and it's magic.

778
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:54.480
It is the power of song to solve the, you know, to solve the

779
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.699
principal dilemma of the story.

780
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:58.260
But you know, I didn't cry in that moment.

781
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:03.239
And what I did feel was that pleasantly unpleasant melancholy that

782
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:06.840
you can get at Christmas and that's what infuses this episode.

783
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:08.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

784
00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:12.000
And I think it's the one that, and I think, you know, I don't want

785
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:16.079
to jump ahead too much to next year's Christmas special, but I, I

786
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:19.380
am of the opinion that it's sort of, um, I think it's nowhere near

787
00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:22.500
as good as this, but I think it's sort of often unfairly maligned

788
00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:25.559
and I think that that's special comes close to that feeling again

789
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:28.019
and I think you can see it in a lot of Moffatt's Christmas

790
00:43:28.019 --> 00:43:31.619
specials, which is this, and it's why they, I think they bear

791
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:33.420
repeat watches at Christmas.

792
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:36.300
They feel right for Christmas is exactly that.

793
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:40.739
There's sort of an attention to capturing that, um, slight

794
00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:43.679
melancholy that's sort of in the best, um, like it's a wonderful

795
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.219
life for, or, um, even a Muppets Christmas carol.

796
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:50.940
You know, like there's, there's like that, that feeling is sort of

797
00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:57.059
what, um, is what makes this story so right for the holiday for

798
00:43:57.059 --> 00:43:58.139
for the event as well.

799
00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:02.579
You know, I think that the difference that I see with Moffat's

800
00:44:02.579 --> 00:44:06.900
Christmas specials is that the story comes out of Christmas

801
00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:13.800
whereas in most of Russell's Christmas Doctor Who's, the Christmas

802
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:15.480
is hung over it like tinsel.

803
00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:16.019
Yeah.

804
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:18.059
And look, I think that's kind of okay.

805
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.900
I mean, even sometimes Russell's Christmas specials fight against

806
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:23.159
it be Christmas.

807
00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:27.360
I mean, we have to explain in dialogue why on earth of all days

808
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:31.800
Donna is having her wedding on Christmas Eve because no saint.

809
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:33.300
Blazing sunshine.

810
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:35.880
Because no one would ever do.

811
00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:39.179
So they're not about Christmas, but Moffat really does try to

812
00:44:39.179 --> 00:44:40.619
capture the spirit of Christmas.

813
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:42.059
And sometimes he doesn't bother.

814
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.059
Like, I don't think return of Dr. Mysterio is particularly about

815
00:44:45.059 --> 00:44:45.719
Christmas.

816
00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:49.380
But other, you know, the other ones do tend to be.

817
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:53.579
But that's what makes this so good because it is about something

818
00:44:53.579 --> 00:44:57.659
and it has a character journey in it, which with the best will in

819
00:44:57.659 --> 00:45:00.780
the world, I don't think something like a Christmas invasion or

820
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:03.420
Voyage of the Dam does have, even though they're very good in

821
00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:03.780
their own ways.

822
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:05.820
Yeah, and that's not what they're reaching for.

823
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:06.539
That's right.

824
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:07.019
Yeah.

825
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:07.440
Yeah.

826
00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:12.000
I mean, and then, of course, we get the ghost of Christmas future

827
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.480
and it is a classic Moffat turn, isn't it?

828
00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:20.159
And you even have Catherine saying, oh, you're going to take me

829
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:22.800
forward to my future and show me dying alone.

830
00:45:22.860 --> 00:45:24.659
You know, spoiler alert.

831
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:26.340
I knew that happened anyway.

832
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:30.659
And then he just says, no, you know, I'm showing you your future

833
00:45:30.659 --> 00:45:31.260
now.

834
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.139
And it's so perfect.

835
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:37.980
It's so beautiful that I can almost forgive the fact that the

836
00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:39.420
Blinovich limitation effect.

837
00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:42.300
No, forget I said that.

838
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:43.260
I wasn't even thinking about.

839
00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:44.400
No, no, no, I was.

840
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:47.579
I don't want heartwarming character moments.

841
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:49.019
I want Morden undead.

842
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.579
But I think this is the thing.

843
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:58.679
Maybe you can read that into the story as well. changed so much.

844
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:01.440
Head Cannon, he's changed so much that he's no longer the same

845
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:04.199
person and therefore can hug himself.

846
00:46:04.260 --> 00:46:06.659
Well, that's teased earlier in the story, isn't it?

847
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:12.000
And, you know, it's his father hugging him as a kid as well, you

848
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:17.219
know, and him, you know, that thing, I don't know, is it cheesy

849
00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:19.679
but, you know, the...

850
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:25.380
That idea of embracing yourself at different times.

851
00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:26.639
Do you know what I mean?

852
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:29.639
Like, sometimes people talk about, you know, feeling miserable

853
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:33.179
when they were children and imagining, like, feeling like I would

854
00:46:33.179 --> 00:46:35.219
love to give that version of me a hug.

855
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:38.340
And so there is something sort of super primal about it.

856
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:41.699
And it's him fixing his own problem, isn't it?

857
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:45.239
It's like it's not the doctor doing it at all.

858
00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:49.380
It's the man who wouldn't hit a kid because he was hit by his

859
00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:51.960
father fixing the problem for himself.

860
00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:54.300
It's the end of the happiness patrol, isn't it?

861
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:55.559
Yeah, it is.

862
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:56.280
That's what it is.

863
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:57.780
It's so good.

864
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:03.119
And I think, like, you know, this is the bit where it, like, truly

865
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:06.300
the floodgates opened and I had a proper ball.

866
00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:11.219
But it's in that, um, it's just in that that 45 seconds where you

867
00:47:11.219 --> 00:47:15.840
go from him, almost as a, it's, it's, it's quite scary. actually.

868
00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:20.099
It's almost this reflex at this point where he turns around and

869
00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:21.900
sees his younger self.

870
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.239
And it's sort of not quite clear.

871
00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:28.800
If it's not a reflex, it's sort of not clear what initiates that

872
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.699
that impulse to to hit out and to lash out.

873
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:37.139
Maybe it's of projected at the doctor or whatever, but, but, um

874
00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:42.480
but between that moment and just him, um, sobbing into the arms of

875
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:45.960
like his, you know, his, his younger self.

876
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:51.900
I think there's something so, um, profound and and, you know, just

877
00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:53.820
talking about it makes me kind of tear up.

878
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.739
It's, um, and I think it's sold so well by Michael Gamble, and I'm

879
00:47:58.739 --> 00:48:03.059
not sure if now is the time to talk about how, how it truly sort

880
00:48:03.059 --> 00:48:09.480
of, phenomenal Michael Gamble is in, is in this, um, but, but, I, I

881
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:15.659
I think that scene is sort of, is, is so, is so charged with, with

882
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:19.440
so many things, and, and I think probably each time I've, I've

883
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:23.460
seen it, it's brought me to the same kind of, embarrassing solving

884
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:25.260
puddles, but it gets me every time.

885
00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:31.800
See, I always read that scene as, I think you're supposed to read

886
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:38.460
that scene as, um, young Kazran calls old Kazran dad and he goes

887
00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:43.800
to hit him because he's not like his dad. like his father

888
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:44.340
exactly.

889
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.460
And then realising, oh, I am.

890
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:48.480
I am my father.

891
00:48:48.539 --> 00:48:49.500
That could be right.

892
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:50.400
That could be right.

893
00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:51.000
I think you're right.

894
00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:51.599
Yeah.

895
00:48:51.659 --> 00:48:52.320
Yeah.

896
00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:52.920
Yeah.

897
00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:56.400
It's some it is incredibly charged, as you said.

898
00:48:56.519 --> 00:49:01.500
It's almost like a primal scream before he finally realises that

899
00:49:01.500 --> 00:49:05.340
he has to show himself that he should not turn out like he has.

900
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

901
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:10.440
And I just to circle back as well.

902
00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:14.099
I think, I think, um, I mean, I think in the whole, from the 1st

903
00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:18.179
scene Michael Gambon's in, he's, um, he's brilliant and he, and

904
00:49:18.179 --> 00:49:22.380
he's so funny and he's kind of, he's, he's just his voice in this

905
00:49:22.380 --> 00:49:23.039
episode.

906
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:26.639
I could literally just listen to a recording of him talking

907
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.760
throughout this throughout this episode and it would be equally

908
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:33.239
enjoyable, but I think I actually think that he might be the best

909
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:34.139
guest star.

910
00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:39.300
I, I, it's sort of an amazing intersection of, of how big a star

911
00:49:39.300 --> 00:49:44.460
he is and how brilliant and clearly, um, there's just, he's sort

912
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:47.579
of giving it absolutely everything and there's no way, like, like

913
00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:53.519
even just the way he watches, um, those projections that I can't

914
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:57.360
imagine, you know, you know, we're there on set or anything, but

915
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:02.340
but they're so beautiful, and he sort of, he is another actor, like

916
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:06.300
Olivia Coleman, that if they start to cry in something, I will I

917
00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:08.820
will be I will be shortly following them.

918
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:10.739
It's easier.

919
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:13.079
It's a very graceful performance, isn't it?

920
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:14.880
Yeah, yeah.

921
00:50:14.940 --> 00:50:19.500
I just, and I think, I think he's so nimble in it as well, because

922
00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:20.820
you can see from that 1st scene.

923
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:24.360
He's he's also so great at being this cartoonish kind of

924
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:25.980
Dickensian villain.

925
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.460
Um, and that would have been sort of that would have been a good

926
00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:30.960
enough performance by itself.

927
00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:34.079
But sort of by the end of it, he's asked to do a lot in the

928
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:34.440
episode.

929
00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:37.500
He's asked to play, you know, 2 characters as well.

930
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.699
And I think, um, in that final scene where you get him sort of

931
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:46.559
cradling this younger version of him and then, and then also in, uh

932
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:47.699
interacting with Abigail.

933
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:51.300
Um, he's just, you know, impossible to look away from.

934
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:53.820
Well, you say he's a villain, but is he the one of the 1st

935
00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:56.880
characters in Doctor Who's both villain and companion in the same

936
00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:57.239
story?

937
00:50:57.239 --> 00:50:59.699
Since maybe Turlow or maybe Dodo?

938
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.000
Like villain, villain, companion, and victim.

939
00:51:03.300 --> 00:51:08.280
All I was thinking while I was watching his performance was, you

940
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.119
know, he's agreed to be in the show that brought us nightmare of

941
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:12.599
Eden.

942
00:51:12.780 --> 00:51:15.420
And he's not condescending.

943
00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:17.460
He's not doing a kind of low red version.

944
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:19.559
He's absolutely keeping it everything he's gone.

945
00:51:35.340 --> 00:51:42.000
You were saying before, Max, um, that it's a really nuanced

946
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:42.780
performance.

947
00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:50.760
I find it incredibly believable that this character, this person

948
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:54.539
their soul is hanging in the balance.

949
00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:59.099
There's so many moments in this, in this story when, you know, his

950
00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:01.980
past is changing in front of his eyes.

951
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.780
You can see he is he's teaching on the precipice, but between

952
00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:13.320
being that man who will let 4000 something people die and becoming

953
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:13.980
a better person.

954
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:22.440
Like the duality that he is able to portray, I think, would have

955
00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:23.760
failed in a lesser actor.

956
00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:26.400
When you get a movie star, you get all that interiority, don't

957
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:26.579
you?

958
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:27.480
Yeah, yeah.

959
00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:33.780
And then the performance of him afterwards, like when he goes and

960
00:52:33.780 --> 00:52:39.599
speaks to Abigail, and when she tells him how silly he's been, and

961
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:44.519
and, you know, when he goes up and tries to make the console thing

962
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:48.900
work, and when he's clearly on side with the doctor, it's not just

963
00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:52.380
that he's willing to save these people, but he also wants to try

964
00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:55.619
and help the doctor to do it when he can't.

965
00:52:55.860 --> 00:53:00.780
I just, it's terribly beautiful because he's not immediately

966
00:53:00.780 --> 00:53:03.659
rewarded for being good.

967
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.659
He loses Abigail.

968
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:08.699
And he'd lost her already, I guess.

969
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:13.139
You know, she only had one day left no matter how he behaved or

970
00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:18.179
what he did, no matter whether he kept her in that fridge until

971
00:53:18.179 --> 00:53:20.280
you know, after he died or whatever.

972
00:53:20.699 --> 00:53:24.719
So maybe his reward, he does get a reward.

973
00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:31.139
He gets one perfect day with the woman that he loves, but it's

974
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:33.119
sort of tinged with heartbreak as well.

975
00:53:33.179 --> 00:53:36.719
Is this a literal fridging?

976
00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:37.320
No.

977
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:41.940
She has to be dead to be dead.

978
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.179
It's so nice because it's so nuanced in writing and performance

979
00:53:45.179 --> 00:53:48.119
because it's almost like his contact with his younger self.

980
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:52.139
He sort of visibly sheds years in the points and becomes more

981
00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:53.519
childlike himself.

982
00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:55.619
It's very subtle in the performance.

983
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:58.860
But it's interesting as well what you said, Nathan, about kind of

984
00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:02.219
you know, that one perfect day because is there a river parallel

985
00:54:02.219 --> 00:54:06.780
here where the doctor will later put off sending River to the

986
00:54:06.780 --> 00:54:10.440
library so that he can have more than just that one day with her?

987
00:54:10.500 --> 00:54:13.440
And it's interesting that they bring in Amy to make that point for

988
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:14.639
Kasran to make that point.

989
00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:17.760
I mean, is all of this in Moffat's mind because it's terribly

990
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:18.059
clever.

991
00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:21.659
Or, I mean, he has a tendency to go back to things that he's done

992
00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:23.219
successfully before.

993
00:54:24.539 --> 00:54:27.960
But, I mean, the day that's planned.

994
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:30.599
And, you know, there's all that sort of silly nonsense with the

995
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:33.780
doctor and the doctor's reunited with Amy and there's the jokes

996
00:54:33.780 --> 00:54:36.960
about the snowman, which I think are just sort of absolutely

997
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:40.679
wonderful, he's clearly made 20 snowmen himself.

998
00:54:40.739 --> 00:54:44.699
You know, she says, oh, look, you know, you could almost mistake

999
00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:48.599
that for a real person and the snowman's not bad either.

1000
00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:52.380
Like there's all these sort of wonderful jokes at the doctor's

1001
00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:56.400
expense, but then she expresses concern, you know, like that's, and

1002
00:54:56.400 --> 00:55:00.300
the doctor's reply is so beautiful and it's that thing that I've

1003
00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:00.659
said before.

1004
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:04.619
He's super awkward and stuff, but he's incredibly wise and it is

1005
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:06.480
that everything has to end.

1006
00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:09.059
Otherwise nothing could ever begin.

1007
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:14.579
And like that's so sort of cheesy and it is sort of a bit Disney

1008
00:55:14.579 --> 00:55:19.079
but it's also beautiful as well and it works thematically with

1009
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:20.280
what we've got in the story.

1010
00:55:21.059 --> 00:55:23.760
Just tacking onto that as well.

1011
00:55:23.820 --> 00:55:27.480
There's there's a follow on from that line that apparently Stephen

1012
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:31.019
sort of said in the tweet along that he cut and that he regretted

1013
00:55:31.019 --> 00:55:35.219
that he cut, which is that snow isn't snow until it falls, or

1014
00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:39.119
something like that, which is obviously, you know, like, obviously

1015
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:42.539
uh, sort of leaning into that, uh, leaning into that sort of the

1016
00:55:42.539 --> 00:55:45.659
Disney aspect of it again, but it's, um, it's true.

1017
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:48.960
And I just, just to talk about Matt's performance really quickly.

1018
00:55:49.019 --> 00:55:53.039
Like there's, there's, I, I think it's been noted on the podcast

1019
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:56.639
before that this is the 1st performance he gives, um, after

1020
00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:57.840
knowing that he's a hit.

1021
00:55:57.900 --> 00:56:03.179
And also, you know, the 1st story that potentially people could

1022
00:56:03.179 --> 00:56:06.239
come on board with, and obviously with a Christmas special, you

1023
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:08.519
get, you get sort of an inflated audience as well.

1024
00:56:08.579 --> 00:56:11.039
It's the 1st story where he wasn't a new doctor.

1025
00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:11.760
He was the doctor.

1026
00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:13.559
Yeah, yeah, precisely.

1027
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:18.719
And just, and I think he's pretty instantly, um, excellent as I

1028
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:22.139
think a majority of the podcast has as well.

1029
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:27.960
But also, I think in this episode, you can see just that like

1030
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:31.980
everything that was working in series 5 is kind of is is almost

1031
00:56:31.980 --> 00:56:33.960
operating on an even higher level here.

1032
00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:36.960
Like there's, there's, there's a moment earlier in the episode

1033
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:41.099
where, um, where Kazran asks sort of quite flippantly, oh, what do

1034
00:56:41.099 --> 00:56:41.460
you want?

1035
00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:45.900
And the doctor's line is a simple life, but it's so, and it's sort

1036
00:56:45.900 --> 00:56:48.420
of such a throwaway kind of, because, because so much of the, the

1037
00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:51.420
scene is sort of these sort of like witty retorts and all that

1038
00:56:51.420 --> 00:56:56.039
kind of stuff, but the way Matt delivers it, is so earnest and, and

1039
00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:56.760
um, quiet.

1040
00:56:56.820 --> 00:57:00.900
And then he just switches to, he, and he shifts gears into being

1041
00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:05.340
sort of the threatening, you know, oncoming storm doctor, like a

1042
00:57:05.340 --> 00:57:06.119
few seconds after that.

1043
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:09.900
But it's just, it's sort of, it's such a perfect illustration of

1044
00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:14.460
how almost just how flexible and sort of malleable he is in this

1045
00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:15.179
story.

1046
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:19.440
He is so, I, I think it might be my favourite performance of the

1047
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:22.260
doctor, that this particular episode.

1048
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:27.900
Maybe, I think maybe Peter Capaldi has an episode later in later

1049
00:57:27.900 --> 00:57:30.719
in the show where I think might just top it, but it is, it's

1050
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:31.260
extraordinary.

1051
00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:32.400
It's extraordinary performance.

1052
00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:35.639
And it's so incredible because Matt is delivering that same

1053
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:40.679
calibre of performance up against Michael Gambon and against 2

1054
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:44.159
people who've never acted on screen before, Danny Horn, who plays

1055
00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:46.800
young Kazran and Catherine Jenkins.

1056
00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:48.659
And it's just incredible.

1057
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:49.380
Yeah.

1058
00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:17.280
Well, new whistler, that's all we have time for, this Christmas in

1059
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:18.300
July.

1060
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:20.880
We will be back later in the year to talk about Stephen Moffat's

1061
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:24.840
difficult second album, starting with the Impossible Astronaut.

1062
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:28.440
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1063
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:31.139
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1064
00:58:31.139 --> 00:58:34.139
at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website

1065
00:58:34.139 --> 00:58:36.780
FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

1066
00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:39.840
podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody Interterra.

1067
00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:42.900
Until next time, keep the faith.

1068
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:44.280
Stay off the naughty list.

1069
00:58:44.340 --> 00:58:45.780
Thank you very much for listening.

1070
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:47.699
Merry Christmas and good night.

1071
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:49.079
Ta-ta.

1072
00:58:49.139 --> 00:58:49.500
Good night.

1073
00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:50.460
See ya.

1074
00:58:54.659 --> 00:58:58.380
That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1075
00:58:58.380 --> 00:59:00.900
Griffiths, Max Gelbarton, James Selwood.

1076
00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:02.940
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam.

1077
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:07.079
This episode, Kasran Scrooge Dick, was recorded on the 21st of

1078
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:10.019
June 2021 and released on the 25th of July.

1079
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:15.900
I'd like to dedicate this episode to the memory of Gracie, the

1080
00:59:15.900 --> 00:59:18.840
lively, angry little terrier who was our friend and companion for

1081
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:22.920
more than 20 years, who we said goodbye to earlier this month.

1082
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:24.719
Go well, sweetheart.

1083
00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:25.500
I'm sorry.

1084
00:59:30.300 --> 00:59:32.159
What do we want to do?

1085
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:32.940
Is that an out?

1086
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:36.659
You know this is still the fifth highest rated story of the new

1087
00:59:36.659 --> 00:59:37.079
series.

1088
00:59:37.139 --> 00:59:38.940
Is it 12.1 million?

1089
00:59:39.059 --> 00:59:39.599
Yeah.

1090
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:39.840
12.

1091
00:59:40.139 --> 00:59:40.440
Wow.

1092
00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:42.900
That's that's massive.

1093
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:48.420
From memory, that was a massive BBC one Christmas 2010.

1094
00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:50.579
I think like EastEnders was massive.

1095
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:51.480
Doctor Who was massive.

1096
00:59:51.539 --> 00:59:52.380
Was it cold?

1097
00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:53.880
Yeah, may have been.

1098
00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:58.800
It may actually have been snowing now, I think, back.

1099
00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:02.519
That was the thing that I thought of with the snow as well. was

1100
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:05.340
just the abortive attempts for it to be snowed.

1101
01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:06.179
You know what I mean?

1102
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:07.380
Like the 1st Christmas special.

1103
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:10.619
It's just the sicker X spaceship blowing up and then, you know

1104
01:00:10.619 --> 01:00:12.599
like it's... something fired into the sky.

1105
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.760
It's all fake or whatever.

1106
01:00:15.420 --> 01:00:17.280
Bits of food.

1107
01:00:17.340 --> 01:00:20.219
And then in the end, the end of time, yeah, it's just, it's just

1108
01:00:20.219 --> 01:00:25.019
David Tennant's angst to just...

1109
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:27.059
All right.

1110
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:28.199
Well, I think we did okay.

1111
01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:28.980
What do you reckon?

1112
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:30.420
Is there anything?

1113
01:00:30.420 --> 01:00:33.179
Seeing if there's anything that you can use?

1114
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:35.820
We're doing it now, darling.

1115
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:38.639
You know, the one thing that I thought throughout, even though

1116
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:40.920
Catherine Jenkins is amazing is Abigail.

1117
01:00:40.980 --> 01:00:43.079
I thought if it hadn't already happened.

1118
01:00:43.139 --> 01:00:46.260
What a brilliant marriage this episode would have been between Dr

1119
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:47.460
and Kylie Minogue.

1120
01:00:51.420 --> 01:00:56.400
I love Kylie, but Catherine Jenkins's voice. you know what I

1121
01:00:56.400 --> 01:00:56.519
mean?

1122
01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:59.519
And frankly, Catherine Jenkins is a better act.

1123
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:01.860
Oh wow.

1124
01:01:02.579 --> 01:01:04.980
Have you never seen Street Fighter?

1125
01:01:05.460 --> 01:01:07.619
Yes, unfortunately.

1126
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:11.880
She is so good in this, Catherine Jenkins.

1127
01:01:11.940 --> 01:01:16.559
Like, I, I, um, the, there was a, not to keep on talking about the

1128
01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:21.420
tweet along, but, but Matt Smith on Twitter, um, sort of, I think

1129
01:01:21.420 --> 01:01:25.559
sort of, had several tweets where he was just glowing of Catherine

1130
01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:27.420
Jenkins about her performance.

1131
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:34.860
And I think it's, it is sort of miraculously good for someone

1132
01:01:34.860 --> 01:01:37.260
acting on screen for the 1st time.

1133
01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:40.139
And I think that, you know, that final song, both the testament to

1134
01:01:40.139 --> 01:01:45.179
her and to Murray, is, is, is so beautiful.

1135
01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:48.480
Like we've been we've been pretty lucky with our Doctor Who

1136
01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:51.059
Christmas songs before, but I think this one is sort of on another

1137
01:01:51.059 --> 01:01:51.420
level.

1138
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:53.340
It's so good.

1139
01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:55.739
Murray's on, he's incredible.

1140
01:01:55.800 --> 01:02:01.920
And what's surprising about that is that he didn't have very long

1141
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:08.340
to write the song. had been approached by the production team and

1142
01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:13.320
and told, you know, oh, we need a song. and and then, you know

1143
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:15.719
they left it for a while and came back and it's like, oh, we

1144
01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:16.500
really need that song.

1145
01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:18.659
And then, you know, they explained to me what it was about.

1146
01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:20.519
He was like, oh, I better go write that then.

1147
01:02:21.059 --> 01:02:24.599
Did he put silence in there as a kind of thing?

1148
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:26.940
Oh, that is unclear.

1149
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:32.940
They recorded it, the demo.

1150
01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:36.780
Like was almost perfect because, you know, it's Catherine

1151
01:02:36.780 --> 01:02:37.199
Jenkins.

1152
01:02:37.260 --> 01:02:47.639
And then he went back and reorchestrated that end scene with Sorry

1153
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:52.079
he went back and re, not orchestrated what I'm for, rearranged.

1154
01:02:52.139 --> 01:02:57.300
So he then went back and rearranged the song for the National

1155
01:02:57.300 --> 01:03:03.780
Orchestra of Wales so that it heightened that scene even more.

1156
01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:08.820
It was supposed to be quite sparse initially and they gave it all

1157
01:03:08.820 --> 01:03:10.019
the swelling.

1158
01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:11.639
They have to, because that's the thing.

1159
01:03:11.699 --> 01:03:15.719
You know, it's the, it's the music that, that, you know.

1160
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:18.840
And she's done it as well.

1161
01:03:18.900 --> 01:03:19.500
Yeah.

1162
01:03:19.500 --> 01:03:21.719
It's the thing about Catherine Jenkins.

1163
01:03:21.780 --> 01:03:23.880
She does have a beautiful voice and, you know, we get to hear that

1164
01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:27.000
and that's obviously why she's being cast, but because she is a

1165
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:31.440
fresh performer, It's remarkably uncynical performance and I think

1166
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:33.179
it infuses the entire episode.

1167
01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:35.159
We love it because it's not a cynical episode.

1168
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:38.460
All right.

1169
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:40.260
I'll do an out trade.

1170
01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:41.159
I think that was good.

1171
01:03:41.219 --> 01:03:44.099
We'll just, um, we'll go with that and I think that's a tag.