WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:04:21

1
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:46.740
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight to Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that spends increasing amounts of time standing in the kitchen wondering what we came in here for.

2
00:00:46.859 --> 00:00:48.659
I'm Nathan.

3
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:49.799
I'm Brendan.

4
00:00:49.859 --> 00:00:50.880
I'm Todd.

5
00:00:50.939 --> 00:00:51.899
I'm Maxwell.

6
00:00:51.960 --> 00:01:03.899
Well, it's the 1st episode of a new season, so it's time to celebrate with the show's most upsetting picnic since those awkward ones with the Dr. Perry and Shara's Jack on Andrazani Minor.

7
00:01:04.019 --> 00:01:11.640
Someone has killed the doctor, so let's see if we can work out who the hell it is in the Impossible Astronaut.

8
00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:29.040
So, Maxwell, you're new to the podcast.

9
00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:34.140
So, I was wondering, um, what are your overall feelings about series 6?

10
00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:40.439
I think there's a few episodes that are a bit middling, but overall, I love the whole arc.

11
00:01:40.500 --> 00:01:46.019
Am I allowed to be a bit vague about that or can I talk broadly about spoilers and stuff?

12
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:47.340
Whatever you like.

13
00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:50.939
So the fact that we, this is, to me, the river song season.

14
00:01:51.060 --> 00:01:54.900
I think the twist in the mid-season was brilliant.

15
00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:55.980
I think the setup was great.

16
00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:57.540
I love the suspense.

17
00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:04.799
Um, I think there was one aspect of her identity that could have been handled better, but overall, I thought this is really great.

18
00:02:04.859 --> 00:02:11.639
And for me, I consider this to be the quote unquote American season because of the shooting locations largely.

19
00:02:11.699 --> 00:02:23.520
And, um, I think just where we were at in Doctor Who history with how it got so big in America at the time, them shooting in New York, them shooting in Utah.

20
00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:34.500
I think that was kind of maybe to cater sort of, not to cater, but to, um, maybe as a little bit of a nod to their American audience, which I don't think, as Americans were ever deserving of such respect.

21
00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:39.419
I feel about America in many ways how the doctor feels about leaving Gallifry.

22
00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:46.259
It's the planet I left because they were a bunch of jerks and I will only go back to indulge them every now and then with my presence.

23
00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:55.020
Um, But no, I actually thought that this was a really, the fact that they were using locales that they had never done before, shooting on site in America.

24
00:02:55.080 --> 00:03:06.479
Really adding a cinematic feel that at that point in the reboot, we hadn't seen yet, just have those broad, just landscape shots of Utah, which are just like, just you could just put a spoon in them.

25
00:03:06.539 --> 00:03:10.500
It just, they're just so dense and beautiful and gorgeous, just delicious.

26
00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:24.960
Uh, it was all really amazing and just very interesting to see what the, um, the doctor who take on a very particular, very pivotal point of American history and really American identity.

27
00:03:25.020 --> 00:03:26.520
Just that was really interesting to see.

28
00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.759
Yeah, so we're a long way away from Lime Grove.

29
00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:35.099
This is really quite amazing looking TV, I think.

30
00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:47.520
Yeah, yeah, as as Maxwell says, the, the, what, I suppose, would have been drone shots flying through, um, I think we're in the Valley of the Kings in Utah for this filming was.

31
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:49.139
Valley of the gods, I beg your pardon.

32
00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.319
Yeah, sorry, Valley of the Kings is, uh, same hemisphere.

33
00:03:53.099 --> 00:03:55.139
No, different.

34
00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:56.699
Anyway, my geography is terrible.

35
00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:01.139
But yeah, we get these sweeping shots through.

36
00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:03.300
And I kind of think, oh, you don't get that in Wales.

37
00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:05.219
It's like, well, why haven't they gone up the mountains again?

38
00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.419
Where's the, it's because Alan Jones is out there, isn't it?

39
00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:19.379
But yeah, it's a statement of intent that, okay, last year we started in this little sleepy village in Ledworth.

40
00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:29.399
This year, we're in America, but we're not sort of a plate shot of San Francisco and then the rest is filmed in Vancouver, which is what we had in 1996.

41
00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.860
We are in America.

42
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:35.399
This is so recognisably America.

43
00:04:35.459 --> 00:04:39.959
We finally got here after, what, 25 years of trying.

44
00:04:40.019 --> 00:04:43.439
Yes, it's certainly not planet of spiders.

45
00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:48.959
I was going to say it's our 1st time shooting on location in America since the chase.

46
00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:53.399
Okay, no.

47
00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:13.079
So maybe we go to the beginning of the episode because one of the things that I really enjoyed about last year was just the kind of team, that Moffat had assembled, and the team that in particular you saw in his 22 part stories, the doctor, Amy, Rory, and River.

48
00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:19.860
And so we spend a little bit of time kind of reestablishing who they are and kind of gathering them together.

49
00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:23.040
It's a little bit like, you know, the opening moments of a heist movie.

50
00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:26.459
Yeah, it does have that feel to it.

51
00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:33.120
Uh, I loved how it just kind of sets off with the doctor's ridiculous antics throughout history.

52
00:05:33.180 --> 00:05:42.300
It's really got a frenetic energy right from the get-go, which is kind of different than the start of the previous season, which his bread had said, was sort of a sleepy village.

53
00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.720
Like, this is, like, it's a bang and we're off from the start.

54
00:05:45.779 --> 00:05:56.939
Um, it was really good to get reacquainted with Amy, who, um, I liked in this, uh, despite her get her constant gaslighting of Rory. which is a huge problem that no one ever talks about.

55
00:05:57.180 --> 00:06:05.759
And just, of course, you know, Alex Kingston is River is a delight from the start when she comes on screen and they're like, she's doing the thing again.

56
00:06:05.819 --> 00:06:07.319
She's packing.

57
00:06:07.379 --> 00:06:14.279
Like, they know that she's so confident she's gonna bust out of a storm cage prison and just, you know, go in her merry way.

58
00:06:14.339 --> 00:06:24.480
And yeah, just the way they introduced everything with her, shooting the doctor Stetson off, you know, Amy being just like angry and ha, we have to do it and Roy just being along for the ride.

59
00:06:24.540 --> 00:06:27.060
It was it was good to see that cast together again.

60
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:31.800
And of course, the doctor in his mysterious cowboy hat was pretty great.

61
00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:34.920
Yeah, but he's naked under some lady's skirt as well.

62
00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:39.000
It's a very different show from the Russell T. Games era.

63
00:06:39.899 --> 00:06:47.399
Well, I think we said that last year Moffatt kind of brought sex to the show in a way that hadn't really ever been done before.

64
00:06:47.579 --> 00:06:52.379
And that is going to sort of be a theme of this season.

65
00:06:52.980 --> 00:07:21.899
I just want to reiterate how much that thing where river shoots the doctor's hats off is the clearest evidence we've ever had that she is his wife and she doesn't want him to look like an idiot in public and because he is a massive idiot whenever he chooses some sort of ridiculously inappropriate head where she deals with it summarily, which I think is just absolutely marvellous.

66
00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:27.540
On the topic of that and the whole, the whole sex and marriage thing.

67
00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:37.019
I think at this point, Matt Smith is still very much playing the sexual and romance stuff like the doctor has heard of sex once.

68
00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:38.879
He read it in the back of a book.

69
00:07:38.939 --> 00:07:43.560
He thinks it might be a kind of serial, but he's not entirely sure.

70
00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.560
But people seem to have a lot of fun with it.

71
00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:48.540
So he'll give it a go.

72
00:07:48.600 --> 00:08:03.899
It's a different take than Tenant, because Tenant was sort of quite sexually confident. or at least sort of gave the, you know, the impression of being sexually confident, even though that's sometimes sort of punctured, I think.

73
00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:20.279
But I think that perhaps Moffatt's a new kind of foray intersex for the show would have been a bit more problematic had the doctor not played it so completely clueless.

74
00:08:20.339 --> 00:08:28.560
I mean, having having tenants doctor up a lady skirt naked would have been utterly utterly unthinkable and unacceptable, I think.

75
00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:35.879
Yeah, yeah, it's like you can actually believe that Matt Smith's doctor has a perfectly innocent explanation for this.

76
00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:42.299
But I do like how they're bringing the team back together again.

77
00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:46.139
I mean, this is really the 1st time that we've had the same team.

78
00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.940
Opening a season as has been involved with the previous, every other season.

79
00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:55.139
There's been at least one change, or we're bringing a new team into it.

80
00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:00.480
So, Stephen's got to find a way to, um, We don't have new people.

81
00:09:00.539 --> 00:09:02.580
We've got the same cast, you know.

82
00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:08.460
And he needs to put the mystery front and centre and get them all sort of involved.

83
00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:09.600
Why is this happening, you know?

84
00:09:10.379 --> 00:09:26.700
I think too, that with what Maxwell said before, about this sort of new American focus, that he's really doing what you should do with episode one of any series, which is kind of reestablish what the show is about and reintroduce everyone.

85
00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:33.480
And I think that that's why we see Amy and Rory at home, you know, so that we can actually see them in context.

86
00:09:33.539 --> 00:09:37.620
They're not travelling with the doctor like they were when we last saw them at Christmas.

87
00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.980
We get to see them sort of domestically being married.

88
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:44.399
We get to see river in storm cage escaping again.

89
00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:48.360
We get reintroduced to everyone.

90
00:09:48.419 --> 00:09:51.720
And I think the show's job.

91
00:09:51.779 --> 00:09:52.919
I have this sort of thing.

92
00:09:52.980 --> 00:09:57.539
I have this thing where series 2 episode one is my favourite episode of any show.

93
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:03.779
And this is series two, episode one of... specifically.

94
00:10:07.379 --> 00:10:11.519
No, because it has 2 jobs, doesn't it?

95
00:10:11.580 --> 00:10:21.960
It introduces the show to someone who's tuning in for the 1st time, reestablishes what the show is about, and then shows us what new directions we're going to take it in.

96
00:10:22.139 --> 00:10:28.379
And I think that this is a really, really good series 2, episode one for all of those reasons.

97
00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:30.240
Yeah.

98
00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:42.899
Also, I do like how they establish that it's been some time since Amy and Rory have seen the doctor, which I thought was an important narrative point to make.

99
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:53.340
Um, and yeah, it does sort of, if you had never seen an episode of Doctor Who before, I'm sure you're going to have sort of whiplash questions at the start because everything is just moving around so quickly.

100
00:10:53.399 --> 00:11:02.879
But you kind of get the idea that, oh, these are 2 human friends of this time travelling, presumably alien, who's, you know, traipsing throughout history.

101
00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:16.679
And here's also this mysterious woman that's also somehow, you know, clearly a sci-fi setting that's also related to the doctor, and they all know each other, and it's all about time travel, and they haven't seen him for a while, and clearly he's aged a bit.

102
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.500
So it does kind of reintroduce everything.

103
00:11:19.500 --> 00:11:21.059
And also they talk about the time lords too.

104
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:27.419
Yeah, very briefly in a very in a very digestible way where they're like, this is his race.

105
00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:28.559
They're time travellers.

106
00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:29.700
They can regenerate.

107
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:31.379
This is how they work.

108
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.000
And it all sets up so much.

109
00:11:33.059 --> 00:11:39.240
So even if the viewer has never seen an episode of Doctor Who or is maybe a casual, I guess is the word I would use.

110
00:11:39.299 --> 00:11:43.259
They understand every mechanic by the end of this episode.

111
00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.360
And I'm kind of just realising that now.

112
00:11:45.419 --> 00:11:46.799
And I think it's brilliant.

113
00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:48.120
Good writing.

114
00:11:48.179 --> 00:12:00.000
It's the scene where they're sinking their diaries as well, which is played for laughs in all sorts of ways, but it also sort of sets up the difference between our doctorate.

115
00:12:00.059 --> 00:12:00.840
How old is he?

116
00:12:00.899 --> 00:12:03.059
103?

117
00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:03.720
Yeah, yeah.

118
00:12:03.779 --> 00:12:04.440
1103.

119
00:12:04.620 --> 00:12:05.039
That's right.

120
00:12:05.100 --> 00:12:22.679
And the earlier doctor that we met before, but because Rory hasn't seen this and Amy has, back in the Angels two-parter last season, she gets to explain to Rory in a completely organic way about the sinking the diary scene that's happening and that's funny as well.

121
00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:24.179
Jim the Fish is in it.

122
00:12:24.899 --> 00:12:27.179
Who's Jim the Fish?

123
00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:35.460
I choose to believe he is from the same species as the blowfish in torched in torchwood.

124
00:12:35.460 --> 00:12:42.480
Season two, episode one, which is one of the few episodes of Torchwood season 2 I've seen because I lost interest.

125
00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:45.120
Anyway, isn't he a half?

126
00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:46.379
Don't you think he's a half?

127
00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:47.399
He could be a half.

128
00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:48.899
That's what I was thinking.

129
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.299
You've got to be careful of water though.

130
00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:52.980
Yeah, yeah, they drown.

131
00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:53.580
It's crazy.

132
00:12:55.860 --> 00:13:00.419
I also think that the Easter Island joke is absolutely superb.

133
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:01.860
Just irresistible.

134
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:10.740
And the 1st of many jokes about Matt's weird head that Moffat makes throughout. like a Moai statue.

135
00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:13.259
He does.

136
00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:14.460
He really does.

137
00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:16.980
Oh, God, that's funny.

138
00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:25.559
I'll discuss this more next week, but that was actually meant to have a strong payoff in the 2nd episode that was cut at the scripting stage for time.

139
00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:28.740
So I will talk more about that next week.

140
00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:41.399
So, we're having a picnic.

141
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:42.539
By a lake.

142
00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:47.039
Yeah, yeah, a very upsetting picnic.

143
00:13:49.019 --> 00:13:58.980
This, I really like the pacing here too, because up until the picnic, everything is just us getting to know the characters and spending time with them.

144
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.320
And I think we liked doing that last year.

145
00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:05.399
So having the opportunity to do that this year is really something.

146
00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:17.399
And you've got, you know, the doctor, not sure whether he's ever drunk wine before and doing the wine thing that he did in the lodger last year where he sort of spits it out and thinks it, you know, tasted more like the gums.

147
00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:20.580
I mean, all of that stuff is just so wonderful and funny.

148
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.899
And then it just takes this sort of hugely, horribly unexpected turn, I think.

149
00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:46.679
What also has that brief moment of just sheer WTFness where Amy looks askance to the distance and you just see this really creepy, kind of slender man-esque shadow, um, because of the way that the sun is positioned, you just kind of see the outline of the silence and there's this weird noise and she's like, what's that?

150
00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:48.659
And she looked away and she's like, oh, I, what?

151
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:48.960
What?

152
00:14:49.019 --> 00:15:04.860
And you're just like, what, it's this, It's like 2 seconds of just really tone shift in a creepy way where you're not sure what's going on, but you already know that maybe this picnic isn't going to end with everyone brings out the fruit salad and wraps up and goes home.

153
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.679
Something really uncanny is gonna happen.

154
00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:15.840
It's a good idea too, because I think, you know, it's quite some distance into the episode that we 1st actually see the silence properly.

155
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:23.519
And so doing this now, I think, is the right thing to do, and it sets the entire thing up, doesn't it?

156
00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:29.340
We get to see what they look like and we get the sort of weird mystery of why Amy can't remember it.

157
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.879
And it's not that she's, you know, in another Doctor Who story.

158
00:15:32.940 --> 00:15:44.879
You can imagine her just sort of dismissing it because, you know, we're showing it, but we don't want them to get involved in the plot yet or something, but it is actually a thing that's properly happening in story.

159
00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:49.799
Yeah, those 1st few times people see a silence and then say, oh, it's nothing.

160
00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:58.080
It's almost played like they, they, not that they've forgotten what they've seen, but oh, no, no, it must be a trick of the light kind of thing.

161
00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:07.980
And you're left wondering until, you know, Amy actually spells it out midway through the episode, you're left wondering, oh, why aren't they saying what they've seen?

162
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.220
But I, Stefan, is really quite old school, Doctor Who?

163
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:21.120
Where you as a viewer are working that out before the characters, so you actually feel cleverer than them and I like that sort of thing, um, in particular.

164
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.700
I think it's a Moffat thing.

165
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:31.500
I do think that one of the things about the complexity of Moffatt's script is that sometimes they make you feel clever.

166
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.940
I mean, sometimes they make you feel, oh my god, how can I have never thought of that?

167
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.480
And that's a frequent kind of response as well.

168
00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:54.840
But I think we said this in our last episode about the Christmas carol, that there's a level of complexity in the scripts that is nevertheless all kind of carefully telegraphed and all sort of explained for you.

169
00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:56.700
While at the same time.

170
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.659
He is kind of relying on your attention as well.

171
00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:06.420
There's a reluctance to just sort of sit there and spell things out for you, I think.

172
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:14.160
How did we feel about um, the really upsetting moment.

173
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:16.799
I was upset.

174
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:28.079
I remember watching it and I think I was 21, 22 at the time, and I knew enough that there hadn't been any hullabaloo about a doctor replacing him, so I knew he wasn't going to regenerate.

175
00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:29.759
And I knew he wasn't going to die.

176
00:17:29.819 --> 00:17:38.579
But I think that was okay because I, or I knew they weren't going to write him off because that's kind of hard to write off your title character.

177
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:43.740
Um, I guess that would beg a lot of interesting questions about where the series would head after.

178
00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:53.819
But I was very curious to see how he was going to get out of his own death, how he was going to fake his own death, which is kind of what I thought was happening.

179
00:17:54.359 --> 00:18:03.359
I think there's a sort of, uh, there are particular fans who get very cross about this and say it's a cheat.

180
00:18:03.420 --> 00:18:05.220
Oh, God.

181
00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:08.160
Let's hear from one of them.

182
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:11.099
No, I was kind of like, oh, that's interesting.

183
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.559
I mean, there's clearly a payoff that's going to happen here.

184
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:15.180
He's obviously not permanently dead.

185
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.619
I mean, you know, oh, Kared Gillett is acting for the gods.

186
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.279
Oh my god. super upset, which apparently she was really upset.

187
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.519
Like, when that happened. according to some of the script notes I've read, which, I mean, I would be too, I guess.

188
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.160
What do you think, Todd?

189
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:32.819
It's shading.

190
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.579
Oh, it's, I don't know.

191
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:36.420
It's, uh...

192
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:42.779
The fact that He's been killed off and you know that they have to get out of it some way.

193
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:45.299
It's sort of like, well, you know, come.

194
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.279
I sit there going, well, okay, come on, so.

195
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:53.279
And I'm rolling my eyes now, listeners, but it's sort of like, I'm just weighing, you know, how are you going to set that up?

196
00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:54.299
How you can get out of that?

197
00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:55.380
You've got to be really clever.

198
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.559
Oh, please don't be something so obvious, like, you know, at some point.

199
00:18:58.619 --> 00:19:06.299
Um, in the season, and so I don't know, at the time, it didn't sit well with me, right?

200
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:13.380
Um, But Stephen does a very different thing from Russell. we've seen the science, we've got the doctor's death.

201
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:19.259
Later in this episode, Amy's pregnant or be, you know, so he's setting up everything.

202
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:25.799
Um, All the mysteries for the season, whereas, of course, Russell introduces things, words, you know, throughout.

203
00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:29.460
And so it's a very different way of doing stuff.

204
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:44.160
I also think too, like at the time, coming off the season finale and uh, the Christmas special, which I just consider like, you know, through the most awesome episodes is ever written, plus the angels one before that and uh, the 11th hour.

205
00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:50.220
And now in retrospect, um, the whale episode, like, I just think they're all stunning.

206
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:54.119
So, you know, coming back to this, I'm not a big fan of this season.

207
00:19:54.180 --> 00:20:01.079
Like, I was not a big fan of when it all played out and I still haven't got problems with stuff further along down the track.

208
00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:05.940
Um, So, you know, when that happened, it was a huge shock.

209
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:06.480
Yes, certainly.

210
00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:10.200
And I'm going, 0 my goodness, but at the same time, my head's going, 0 yeah, well, how are you going to get out of this one?

211
00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:13.619
you know, like, I don't know, like, you're not going to kill off the main character.

212
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:13.980
So what?

213
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:14.339
you know?

214
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.119
Come up with some spacy waste you time you whimy thing, Stephen, you know?

215
00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:19.559
That's the sort of attitude I took.

216
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:21.359
Yeah.

217
00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:25.079
I think I'm about halfway between the 2 of you in that.

218
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:26.640
I watched that scene.

219
00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:38.759
I was living in the UK at the time and so there was a huge, huge buzz, you know, the doctor was coming back plus at that time we knew it was going to be a split season and there were people going, oh my god, you know, this is horrible.

220
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:41.759
Who should always be a 3 month run and blah, blah, blah.

221
00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:45.299
Whereas a lot of other people were like, well, this is what American television is doing.

222
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:47.880
You know, they have a midseason finale.

223
00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:52.200
So it was this idea of we've got this event run of 6 or 7 episodes.

224
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.660
Foreshadowing dear listener.

225
00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.900
But I remember the buzz around this scene at the time.

226
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.180
And I think I fall slightly in the middle in that.

227
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:11.099
I kind of went, okay, they're going to come up with some solution for this, but I actually looked forward to what the puzzle box was.

228
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:11.400
Yeah.

229
00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:22.740
And to be quite honest with you, I'm not going to say too much about the end of the season, but when we got there, I only figured it out about 3 seconds before it actually happened on screen.

230
00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:25.500
So in retrospect.

231
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.519
I think it's a really well constructed mystery.

232
00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:31.980
As for fake out regenerations.

233
00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:35.400
We've had, I think, three.

234
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:40.740
So we've got the stolen earth, we've got this one, and we've got the lie of the land.

235
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.660
I think this is the 2nd most effective.

236
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.480
Well, because it doesn't feel like a fake out.

237
00:21:45.539 --> 00:21:50.279
For me, it was just, oh, shoot, he's been killed because that's just the natural process.

238
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:57.539
And it also kind of, it drops the kind of for the new audience, the idea that the doctor can regenerate, which they do explain.

239
00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:58.740
So it's like, why is he glowing?

240
00:21:58.799 --> 00:21:59.700
That's why.

241
00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:00.299
Yeah.

242
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.539
And we need that for the final scene next week as well.

243
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.799
Like, we need people to know what that is for the final C next week. a really good point.

244
00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:15.839
Look, we'll get to the lie of the land one in a few years, but I think it is one of the most offensive things that the show has ever done.

245
00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.299
Whereas I'm totally on board with the other two.

246
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.299
Oh, don't get me started on the stuff they did to Bill.

247
00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:24.059
I think it's so problematic.

248
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:25.559
God bless Pro Macky.

249
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:26.759
Yeah, whatever.

250
00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:33.539
I will be talking next week about how Stephen Moffat treats his queer characters, but that's a discussion for next week.

251
00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:41.819
Coming back to this.

252
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.299
I think it's really engaging, and I really do like it, you know?

253
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:49.559
I had problems with the end of the season coming back to this.

254
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:52.440
Like, you know, they've got to try and match things up and I have a few issues there.

255
00:22:52.559 --> 00:23:03.660
And of course, you know, the whole with the storyline and the fact that spoiler without going into it, she's got to, you know, play a certain role here, you know, and pretend that she doesn't know what's going on.

256
00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:06.539
Does she do that though?

257
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:18.720
Because she actually, as the, I think I'm just going to put my cards on the table, you're going to get spoilers for the season arc, if you're listening, it happened 10 years ago, all right?

258
00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:19.740
Okay.

259
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:22.980
Darth Vader's Luke Skywalker's father by that's right.

260
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.579
That guy in disguise who just turned up at Ithaca's Odysseus, okay?

261
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:34.019
So, um, She she actually goes to shoot the astronaut.

262
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:35.579
So the astronaut comes out of a thing.

263
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:37.259
The doctor goes down to speak.

264
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.859
It's all happening in long shot and we only become really interested.

265
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.019
Like, that's how we see the shot.

266
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.119
It's Toby Haynes directing, isn't it?

267
00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:47.519
Which is, uh, and he did Christmas Carol?

268
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:48.059
Yep.

269
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:50.220
And he's really incredible.

270
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.460
I don't think we raved about him in our Christmas carol episode.

271
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.759
So I want to... cinematography is phenomenal.

272
00:23:56.819 --> 00:23:57.660
Unbelievable.

273
00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:59.099
Paul, 2 episode.

274
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:05.759
And so having that conversation happen a long shot until, you know, the astronaut shoots the doctor, I think, is a brilliant choice.

275
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.940
We're completely seeing it from everyone else's point of view.

276
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:17.519
River goes up and shoots the astronaut a couple of times and then says, oh, yes, of course, right?

277
00:24:17.579 --> 00:24:21.660
So she makes it clear that she knows what's going on.

278
00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:28.319
It doesn't, still doesn't explain why she runs up and shoots the astronaut, mind you, but whatever.

279
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:35.819
But there are hints in the script, at least, that she knows more about the astronaut than she's kind of letting on.

280
00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:39.660
Or she realises it that as she's shooting.

281
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:43.259
Yeah, maybe it's some other astronaut coming out of Lake Silencio.

282
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:54.119
That scene, though, is just it's so brilliant because it almost feels natural in a way because it's like you're just sitting at a picnic. wait, is that an is that an astronaut coming out of a lake?

283
00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:54.900
What the hell is going on?

284
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.420
And the doctor's like, okay, I'll just go check it out.

285
00:24:57.480 --> 00:24:58.680
And they're like, what's he doing?

286
00:24:58.740 --> 00:24:59.640
Like, what's going?

287
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:00.420
Oh, my God.

288
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.079
Oh my god.

289
00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:05.880
And it's just like, it's really, that's, I think, why it's so unnerving is because it's played so naturally.

290
00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:09.779
Like, it's if you, your friends were just chilling and something weird happened in the distance.

291
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.720
Someone went to go check it out and then that, like, you know, like that person in the astronauts too just killed your friends.

292
00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.099
You freaked out too.

293
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.720
Like, what is going on?

294
00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:21.240
so bizarre. terrifying.

295
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:30.299
And the school underneath that moment, until the doctor starts regenerating, is so, it's so low frequency and really quiet.

296
00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:38.519
And, you know, something that Marigold is sometimes criticised for is sort of the bombast and the emotional drive of the music.

297
00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:47.279
But here, it's just underscored slowly, almost subconsciously building tension until you get to that moment.

298
00:25:47.339 --> 00:25:55.680
Plus, of course, we have a shot, which is a croup from Lagopolis for, you know, the, for those of us who were there, who were there in the 80s.

299
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:58.500
I was barely there in the 80s.

300
00:25:59.819 --> 00:26:06.299
When I 1st saw that shot, the 1st thing I think is Adrick looking up at the doctor and the watcher on the bridge.

301
00:26:06.299 --> 00:26:07.200
And lookopolis.

302
00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:09.240
Oh, yeah.

303
00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:15.359
It does have that weird, like, that distance, something weird eries going on.

304
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.839
Yeah, and the doctor goes to talk to the Yeah, I just remembering that.

305
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:20.160
Because it's been a while since I've seen that episode.

306
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:21.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

307
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:27.119
And I think at the time, that led to a lot of speculation online of, is the doctor in the suit?

308
00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:33.660
Is this a hint from Stephen Moffat and Toby Haynes that it's the doctor in the suit?

309
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:35.759
It's pretty amazing, isn't it?

310
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:38.940
Because that's 2 mysteries that we're not going to get resolved for a while.

311
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:44.220
How does the doctor get out of this and who is in the suit?

312
00:26:44.940 --> 00:26:55.980
If you're paying very close attention, you might conclude that it's river, because we already know, I think, from the Angels 2 part of that river kills the doctor.

313
00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.539
You know, we know how Moffatt's mysteries work in some ways.

314
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:03.539
Often it's just the mystery is fun.

315
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:08.400
The tease is fun, but he doesn't tend to come up with a very stupid answer.

316
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:10.440
You know, Missy's not the Rani.

317
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.400
She's the master.

318
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:13.980
You know.

319
00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:18.059
Yes, spoiler alert, river is the doctor's wife.

320
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.819
Like all of those mysteries are sort of super obvious.

321
00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:25.799
And we have the mystery set up in the Angels 2 part of it.

322
00:27:25.859 --> 00:27:35.880
The reason that Rivers in Stormcage is because she has killed someone, and that someone is a good man, and I think that we're already on board with the idea that it's the doctor.

323
00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:51.599
So probably in the kind of heat of the moment, no one went, oh, that's river then, because because of what you said about the scene, I think, Maxwell, you know, you're not sitting there sort of analytically trying to sort of do the puzzle.

324
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:57.420
You're too busy kind of feeling viscerally what all these people are going through because it's played so well.

325
00:27:57.539 --> 00:27:59.220
It is played so well.

326
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.400
I think Karen is absolutely extraordinary.

327
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:09.900
And for me to say that, coming off my previous comments about her, you know, is something.

328
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:17.819
But, um, you know, the whole burning of the body and the beautifully filmed and that haunting music over the top of all of that.

329
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:33.299
And also, the way he uses Rory, who sort of, you know, is a little bit more detached from the doctor, who is the one that has to, you know, burn the body and do all that sort of stuff because Amy is incapable and of course, River has to look after her.

330
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:38.700
Like, it's just, um, I just think that whole sequence is actually quite stunning.

331
00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:01.740
So, um, a man turns up in a pickup truck, and it's W.

332
00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:16.980
Morgan Shepherd, who is, uh, or rather was, he's no longer with us, an actor with very long pedigree, including science fiction, anyone who hasn't seen his turn in Babylon 5, Soul Hunter, it's a masterclass in something.

333
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:26.579
Um, But yeah, here he is playing, um, not exactly alongside his son who'll appear later in the episode.

334
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.259
Mark Shepard.

335
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:32.039
But the thing that astonished me when I was researching this is they're both English.

336
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:34.680
Really?

337
00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:39.480
Everything I've seen with them. has been with an American accent.

338
00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:41.640
And so I thought they were American.

339
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:46.019
I don't think there was a single American in any episode of the X-Files.

340
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.160
I'm just putting it out there.

341
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:50.039
I think it was all English people doing the accent.

342
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:53.339
It's absolutely astounding.

343
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.900
Wasn't Morgan Shepard, Mark Shepard's suggestion?

344
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:59.039
Yeah.

345
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.480
I think so.

346
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:11.099
They originally going to put prosthetics on him, which are used to actually a really great effect with a different character, but no, he suggested using his father as the older version of him.

347
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:12.720
It is a great American accent.

348
00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:16.200
I thought he was American because I actually didn't know who that was at first.

349
00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:19.140
And then I was like, oh, it's the voiceover guy from Civilisation 5.

350
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:28.380
But like, I mean, Mark Shepard as well, just, you know, a titan of sci-fi has been in Firefly.

351
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:29.759
He's been, I think, supernatural.

352
00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:36.539
He's been in almost everything and he does alternate between using a British accent and an American accent from what I've heard. he's great at both.

353
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:37.799
Yeah.

354
00:30:37.859 --> 00:30:49.920
And Morgan Shepard is there to deliver the kind of line of dialogue, which I think is a bit weird, and I'm not quite sure why it's there, which is the one where he says, no, it's not a clone.

355
00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:54.240
It's not a, you know, um, robot replica.

356
00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:56.400
It is a robot replica, spoilers.

357
00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:01.140
Um, you know, it's, it's the doctor, he's very definitely dead.

358
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.299
And I wonder what that's for.

359
00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:06.359
It's for the audience.

360
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:12.359
So when we're all, we're already sitting on the sofa going, um, you know, maybe it's a robot replica.

361
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:18.720
Maybe there's a gravity pocket at the bottom, maybe it's this, maybe it's a hologram, maybe it's that.

362
00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:29.819
And this character actor who we've seen in Star Trek and Babylon 5 and murder she wrote and all those sorts of things comes in and says, no, no, no, definitely dead.

363
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.700
And it's to say to the audience, no, no, no, definitely dead.

364
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.519
But we know he's not definitely dead.

365
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:40.319
We as cynical adults are looking for the way out.

366
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.819
Oh, no, I don't think you need to be a cynical adult.

367
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:46.980
I think anyone a child watching it.

368
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.319
No frustrating.

369
00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:53.099
Because Moffatt knows how storytelling works.

370
00:31:53.160 --> 00:32:00.059
You know, Moffat knows that what we are now waiting for is the kind of reinstatement of the doctor.

371
00:32:00.059 --> 00:32:04.440
And we get that, but we get it in sort of a slightly unsatisfactory way.

372
00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:08.339
We're now waiting for the rest of the season for the other shoe to drop.

373
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.819
How does the doctor get out of it on Lake Silencio and we know that he will.

374
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:23.940
We don't, we know that, you know, he's not going to say, all right, the rest of the show now takes place in the 195 years between, you know, this doctor and the other doctor.

375
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.279
Like, we know that that's not going to be the solution.

376
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:28.859
So we know that he has to be getting out of it.

377
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:32.279
But it's also Stephen, knowing Doctor Who fans.

378
00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:36.779
And so by stating this, it's sort of like pushing us in a different direction away from the obvious.

379
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.539
Yeah, I guess that's true.

380
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:40.259
I guess that's true.

381
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:40.920
Yeah.

382
00:32:40.980 --> 00:33:02.819
And I think it's, it's all, it's also, in, in terms of Stephen Moffatt's scripts, most of the time when he's being sort of very clever and the reveal comes later, the reveal is almost like, well, I told you this already, it's just that I was drawing attention in one place when I was telling you the solution in another place.

383
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:08.339
So, like who river is and in this case, Canton says, that is most definitely the doctor.

384
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.279
Yeah, because the doctors told him to say that and the doctor lies.

385
00:33:11.339 --> 00:33:13.019
I keep telling you this.

386
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:14.160
You know?

387
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:17.700
And so you do feel clever when you figure it out.

388
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.920
And if you don't figure it out, you're then able to look back over the clues and go, oh, right.

389
00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:24.119
Yeah, I get that.

390
00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:33.960
And as such, it's a very cleverly put together mystery because it invites you, like an Agatha Christie to kind of go, okay, what do I think of the evidence?

391
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:40.140
And, you know, they've got the scene where David Souche says, okay, Hastings, gather everyone together.

392
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:45.539
We've been watching a lot of Poirot here at home and usually Rod will then pause it and turn to me and say, right, what do you think?

393
00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:49.079
Because Rod's read the books and seen these before.

394
00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:53.339
What a partner thing to tell.

395
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.220
That's like me and Sean watching Doctor.

396
00:33:57.059 --> 00:33:59.160
So what he thinks going to happen?

397
00:33:59.220 --> 00:34:01.980
But the thing is, it's really satisfying when you get it right.

398
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:03.420
Or even when you get it half right.

399
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:08.519
Because a lot of the time, I'll either get the murderer or the motive right, but rarely both together.

400
00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:22.440
I should also mention that the astronaut came out as an action figure in 2 different types, and you didn't know which type you got until you bought it because the visor was down.

401
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:24.960
So in one of them, you had the little girl.

402
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:32.099
And in the other one, spoiler alert, you had Alex Kingston. hate that.

403
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:34.019
That's so weird.

404
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.679
Did you buy like 12 of them until you got one of each?

405
00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:39.719
I only got the little girl.

406
00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:41.039
I've only got the girl.

407
00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:44.219
And I do have an Alex Kingston from science in the library.

408
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.440
I need to get another Alex Kingston from the Pandora Opens, and then I need to get a 2nd one because I've actually figured out.

409
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.260
Oh, I'm really sorry for this deal this night.

410
00:34:52.320 --> 00:35:12.239
I have actually figured out I got a spare pirate planet Romana, which if I repaint it, can look like the denim river song from this episode, so I need a spare river song, head, to one, to transplant onto, um, Did you just have a realisation of how absolutely insane.

411
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:13.920
That sounded midway through your sentence.

412
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:14.940
Yeah.

413
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:17.940
It was like I was looking, I need a reverse song called.

414
00:35:17.940 --> 00:35:21.420
And then you look down like, oh, oh, this is what I've become.

415
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:25.380
Okay, Asio, if you just listen to 5 seconds of the podcast, listen to that bit.

416
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:30.719
Oh, baby, we got the FBI and AC on this because of my ass.

417
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:38.639
There is so much happening in this episode because then we go to the cafe, which we're going to revisit at some point in the future.

418
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.659
The most American Welsh diner that's ever...

419
00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:45.780
Would you like to talk more about?

420
00:35:46.619 --> 00:36:02.760
It's, well, it's just so interesting because like, you know, coming from America, everything is just a facimile of other people's cultures, like, let's go to a Chinese restaurant that has like dragons on the wall and like jade and it's like, oh, this is like a hyper real version of China, which it isn't.

421
00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:07.440
And so to see that, my quote unquote culture represented.

422
00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:12.059
It's like, oh, there's your Elvis on the wall, there's your guns, there's your Marilyn Monroe.

423
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:16.260
There's your kind of old timey jukebox. like, this is, like, it's, it's creepy.

424
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:29.880
It's like, if I was like put in some sort of like space odyssey 2001, that ending where he's in that weird mansion created by the, um, the aliens, that for Americans. into a diner and they're like, hello?

425
00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:31.800
That's what it felt like.

426
00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:36.599
It was just like, oh, this is like, they really trying to drive the point home that this is the US.

427
00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:39.719
Although probably Cardiff at this point.

428
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.900
I won't, they can't have.

429
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:49.739
But here, you know, again, uh, River is again saying, who does the doctor trust the most?

430
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:55.739
and and then the doctor walks in, the younger version, you're going, what's going on?

431
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.619
We're setting up the fact that he is like 200 years younger.

432
00:36:58.619 --> 00:37:05.760
And then, of course, we get what we need in virtually every tenure of the doctor is is a slap in the face.

433
00:37:06.539 --> 00:37:12.780
It's fantastically great how angry Alex Kingston is.

434
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.639
And also how much she expects him to pull this sort of crap.

435
00:37:17.699 --> 00:37:19.679
Like, she's not surprised that he's done it.

436
00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:26.340
She thinks it's worse than he usually does, but sort of, you know, this is cold even for you.

437
00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:31.079
This is the sort of thing that you do, but this is even worse than sort of anything.

438
00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:38.159
And we are going to spend this season talking about how Moffatt mistreats the regulars.

439
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:50.340
But what the doctor puts Amy through. in that in that scene on the beach is just incredible, just so kind of upsetting and terrible.

440
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.639
Perhaps perhaps Amy's performance is too good.

441
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:55.199
It makes it too upsetting.

442
00:37:55.260 --> 00:38:06.599
Yeah, I've, I've long, I've long sort of said, like, I have problems with Amy as a character, but that's how I know that Karen Gillon is such a good actress because I love Karen Gillon.

443
00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:10.079
You know, and I have a bit of a problem with Amy.

444
00:38:10.139 --> 00:38:22.800
It's like, well, if I like you as a person as much as I've seen of you, um, but, oh, there's, there's parts about your character, I don't like, you, you know, you must be playing that character well sort of thing.

445
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:29.159
Um, incidentally, and look, this could be announced by the time we release this podcast.

446
00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:35.400
There are rumours, dear listener, that Karen Gillen will play Mara Jade in the Star Wars universe.

447
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:38.039
But that could be.

448
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:39.719
I thought you were going to say the 14th doctor.

449
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:43.500
No, no, that's Jennifer Saunders.

450
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:53.219
But no, there are rumours, but also I think those rumours might be because people in fan circles can't think of another red-haired actress who can fight.

451
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.519
So take that with a grain of salt.

452
00:38:56.579 --> 00:38:56.940
Wow.

453
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:58.679
Bonnie Langston.

454
00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:05.880
Do we think that's just a different incoronation of river?

455
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:08.820
I thought about that.

456
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:11.519
Oh my god, that is that's cannon.

457
00:39:11.579 --> 00:39:13.320
And when Psycho down that rabbit hole.

458
00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:16.619
When the Rani dresses up as Mel, what does she do?

459
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.500
She slaps the doctor. in character.

460
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:21.360
Not a coincidence.

461
00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:24.719
Can I just say I love Karen or Amy's hair?

462
00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:26.880
in this episode.

463
00:39:26.940 --> 00:39:33.000
I'm all about the hair people, but you know, I really think this helps her out this season is her, the way she starts.

464
00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:33.719
Yeah.

465
00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:35.159
It's so important.

466
00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.440
This whole episode. discussion.

467
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:39.539
Absolutely beautiful.

468
00:39:39.599 --> 00:40:07.320
Yeah, and, you know, foreshadowing sort of later this season when it's revealed that Amy has a modelling career, when she's on earth, it's totally believable and in keeping with the character and sort of a powerful thing to do with Amy as a character because, you know, we've had, we've had Donna and we've had Martha and we've had Rose all with different sort of ideals, but, you know, looking out beyond where they are.

469
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:12.539
Whereas Amy's like, no, no, I'm going to be a model and I'm going to make a success of this and I'm going to have fun with it and I'm going to be fabulous.

470
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:14.579
And she is.

471
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:15.300
And cheers.

472
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:17.519
She trusts the doctor.

473
00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:23.880
Because this is a conversation they have as they go in the TARDIS, which is sort of the next little bit of sequence.

474
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:25.500
Yeah.

475
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:34.619
And again, you know, we have a scene that reinforces and explains the mystery.

476
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.460
We're supposed to be wondering what happened to the doctor.

477
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:47.699
And so we have that incredible scene where they're sort of conspiring under the, you know, in the sort of area under the console, which is one of my favourite parts of that set.

478
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:54.119
And one of the best things about that particular set, is that sort of whole area under the glass floor.

479
00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:59.400
And, you know, the doctor's sort of annoyed because no one's admiring him when he sort of sticks his head down to complain.

480
00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:16.980
But we get all of that stuff, all of that stuff about the different characters' attitudes to the doctor, but it's also there, I think, just to reinforce the kind of mystery and the dilemma and the fact that all of them have to keep this huge secret from the doctor.

481
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:24.599
It's interesting because, of course, River, again, is reinforcing, you know, um, that the doctor's death doesn't frighten me or mine.

482
00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:27.960
There is a far worse day coming to me, you know, all that dialogue there.

483
00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:33.000
You can see, um, obviously, the differences in Rory's and Amy's reactions to that.

484
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:37.980
I do find it, well, the fact that the doctor can't hear what's going on in underneath.

485
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:43.019
Surely he should be this suspicious and be like at the door trying to find like on the floor trying to find out what's going on.

486
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:48.300
I mean, you know, it's just been me, but yeah, it's very classic series.

487
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:49.920
I heard them over talking.

488
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.039
Except when you're not allowed to.

489
00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:59.219
It's the Dalek who comes around the corner looking straight at you and very quickly writes its eye stalk.

490
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:08.219
The thing that bothered me about that scene was, at one point, the doctor's like, okay, so what's going on?

491
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:13.139
You've gotten this letter saying something about 1969 in space.

492
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:17.159
Um, and he's like, okay, so this is where this is where what we would do.

493
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:17.820
We would do this.

494
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:20.400
We would do this. you know, we would pinpoint that it's 1969.

495
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:21.719
And now we're going to go somewhere else.

496
00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:23.400
And they're like, wait, what are you talking about?

497
00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:25.079
Why aren't we going to go investigate the thing?

498
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:26.400
You love investigating the thing.

499
00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:30.059
And he goes, a mysterious summons from someone we don't know.

500
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:31.860
Do you really think I'm just going to walk into that?

501
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:36.599
And I'm sitting there watching this going, that's not true, Ellen.

502
00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:38.099
You absolutely would.

503
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:39.480
You do it all the time.

504
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:42.059
So why not now?

505
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:45.840
And like, what is the reluctance to Chen, come on.

506
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:49.920
But the reluctance really is that he knows that they're keeping a secret from him.

507
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:53.519
He doesn't trust them and he is just going to take them all home.

508
00:42:53.579 --> 00:43:03.659
And the way Matt plays that. is so incredibly great because it starts with him doing his usual sort of bubbly thing.

509
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.440
You know, you go home, make babies, you know, I'm taking you to prison.

510
00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:12.719
I've got a hilarious biplane knitting lesson that I need to go to.

511
00:43:12.780 --> 00:43:14.340
Like, he's being funny.

512
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:19.139
And he just becomes so incredibly menacing.

513
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:23.940
Like he is so cold and hostile to them without overplaying it in any way.

514
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:26.460
And it's the that thing that he does.

515
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:32.400
He's so mercurial, but also, and I've said this, you know, all throughout the last season.

516
00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:39.119
Just the way that he plays menace is so low key and so much more menacing.

517
00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:49.920
So I really like that because I think, actually, Maxwell, that do you think I would respond to a mysterious signal and just walk into things and then he's, then he kind of implies no.

518
00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:51.659
I think that wrong foots us.

519
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:56.579
I think we're going, yeah, actually, like, I think that's quite deliberate because of course he does that.

520
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:58.619
And a 2nd later he does do it.

521
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:03.840
Like once Amy reassures him that she's trustworthy.

522
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:06.119
He's straight to the mysterious summons.

523
00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:06.900
Of course he is.

524
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:17.579
But he stops just to make it clear to them that he absolutely knows that they're hiding something important from him and that he's not willing to put up with it.

525
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:28.860
Yeah, I think that whole thing of hiding something is what makes the difference because usually when he goes blundering into a situation like this, He has absolute confidence in the people around him.

526
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:36.539
But in this instance, I feel like he almost plays it with an air of betrayal.

527
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:49.440
Not necessarily... that he thinks they are leading him into a trap, but it's kind of like he has just rebooted the universe, saved Rory and Amy's marriage.

528
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:52.679
He's constantly breaking river out of prison to take her to parties.

529
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:55.920
And he's like, and I'm sorry, this is how you treat me.

530
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.099
You know, that's the air.

531
00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:07.559
It's it's disappointment and hurt is what I kind of get from like when he flops down into the chair and puts a hand to his temple.

532
00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:16.019
And then and then it's the disappointment of having to explain why he feels why he feels that way.

533
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:39.000
And as you say, it's so menacing and I actually well up a bit when Amy says fish fingers and custard because we also know that that's a slightly painful memory for Amy because even though that's the day her life changed forever and it was the most wonderful day of her life, it also led to 14 years of believing she was insane.

534
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:40.559
And everyone...

535
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:43.199
No, sorry, she didn't believe she was insane, but everyone around her did.

536
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:49.320
And, you know, the doctor acknowledges waiter this season that he kind of screwed up her life.

537
00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:54.000
But he also, I mean, that's the day that he doesn't come.

538
00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:55.679
Although I guess he's fixed that.

539
00:45:55.739 --> 00:45:58.139
He does turn up that day and put it to bed and stuff like that.

540
00:45:58.199 --> 00:45:59.940
So maybe that didn't happen.

541
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.019
Who can tell?

542
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:02.699
series 5 is very complicated.

543
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:17.699
There is somewhere where he does go, and he does arrive, and that's in the Oval Office, you know?

544
00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:33.480
I mean, it's very brave of them to decide to actually involve US president and having to cast somebody to look like that and behave like President Nixon, you know, and to try and get that performance credible enough for us to believe.

545
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.159
Don't you think?

546
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:36.659
And he kills it.

547
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:38.760
So Maxwell, who does it better?

548
00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:40.800
Doctor Who or Futurama?

549
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:43.920
I actually have to give it to Doctor Who.

550
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:48.420
And what's so interesting is I looked up that actor whose last name is Milligan, I believe.

551
00:46:48.539 --> 00:46:49.199
Stuart Milligan?

552
00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:49.440
Yes.

553
00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:55.380
He, who I didn't realise was also the president in Wonder Woman 1984 as Reagan.

554
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:58.320
And apparently he's just, apparently that's his thing.

555
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:01.019
He played Eisenhower.

556
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:04.380
Like that's his thing. the go-to guy to be any president.

557
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:05.820
He's like a shapeshifter.

558
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:10.320
It could be any kind of weird, lopsided, southern accent, mediocre white guy.

559
00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:13.139
Probably couldn't do a convincing Obama, and let's not see him die.

560
00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:15.360
That's his role.

561
00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:16.980
And, you know, they put prosthetics on him.

562
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:23.579
And he killed it, and it was really unsettling, kind of how much he how Nixon-esque he was.

563
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:47.880
But, um, you know, what I love about the setting of 1969 is just how much it, like, I think for a British person watching this, unless they have a really good grasp on American history, which they might, the metaphors, the symbolism, everything in this episode is so evocative of the mood, the tone, and the aesthetics of 1969.

564
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:58.320
Um, So, just to kind of, geez, a point of reference, 1969 thematically is very reflective of sort of how America looks today.

565
00:47:58.380 --> 00:48:01.500
It was a time of incredible social upheaval.

566
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:07.079
It was really, you know, I think it's been sugar coated where we think, oh, it's the hippies.

567
00:48:07.139 --> 00:48:09.420
It's this. civil rights movement, which of course, that's all there.

568
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:11.579
But no one was having a good time.

569
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:12.719
Like, it was really terrible.

570
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:17.340
I mean, like there was assassinations of major political leaders like every other week.

571
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:24.480
And I don't think the rest of the world often when they think about America in the 60s sees how just terrible that time was.

572
00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:29.219
And, um, it's really, with a whole FBI being in the background.

573
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:32.280
This is a point in history where we just had the red scare.

574
00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:33.420
So we had McCarthyism.

575
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:36.360
We had sort of you know, sort of monitoring our own civilians.

576
00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:44.579
And this is also the point in history where I think a lot of Americans, especially the younger generation, of course, all became boomers who are, you know, destroying everything.

577
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:48.539
Um, they kind of woke up and said, you know what, something's not right here.

578
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:57.059
And this was the 1st time you sort of had dissent in America against America and the response to that was as you could expect the FBI to just go even harder.

579
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.780
And so that's why they kind of are this looming presence in the background.

580
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:09.960
And while the silence themselves kind of have that men in black FBI suit to them, because this is a period of you're being watched.

581
00:49:10.019 --> 00:49:13.019
There is a conspiracy behind your back.

582
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:16.860
I mean, and even Nixon is, says, I don't trust the FBI.

583
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.760
And I think that kind of goes to show how much at this point in history.

584
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:25.260
We had sort of lost the plot and how this was a time of paranoia.

585
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:38.280
And, you know, the other stuff, the other thing that's looming in the background of all this as well is this was the time period where UFOs and aliens in Roswell were a big part of the American pop cultural identity, like B movies.

586
00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:42.599
And the silence themselves are very evocative of a gray alien.

587
00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:52.320
I know they're supposed to be based off of Edvard Milk's The Scream, but they look very much like those Roswell aliens that just kind of show up and put the whammy on you and take you aboard their spaceship.

588
00:49:52.380 --> 00:50:00.300
And they have also that men in black luck of these like weird, mysterious, you know, maybe they're aliens, maybe they're humans, they show up.

589
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:03.000
They erase their memory and then they leave.

590
00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:06.000
And that's all there in the symbolism there.

591
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:12.480
And um, I was really interested by how nuanced Nixon was in this.

592
00:50:12.539 --> 00:50:30.059
Because when you look at history and you look at the start of his term, he's only, I think, 7 months, 6 months in office at this point, it's been less than a year, and he, and when Nixon came in, he did very much have that kind of peacemaker attitude where he's like, look, we are in an intense period of American history.

593
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:31.800
I know there's a conservative thing happening.

594
00:50:31.860 --> 00:50:33.059
There's a liberal thing happening.

595
00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:36.659
I'm here to kind of unite everyone and I want to put my best foot forward.

596
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:38.519
We're going to, you know, we're going to go to the moon.

597
00:50:38.579 --> 00:50:39.360
It's going to be great.

598
00:50:39.420 --> 00:50:40.679
This is going to be the new America.

599
00:50:40.739 --> 00:51:00.000
And it's so interesting to see how that's really reflective in a character who, looking back, is not a slime ball at all, really, in this whole, 2 over the dead, of course, the next few episodes, he's actually quite benevolent, and he's a little bit of a grouch. a little bit, you know, doddering, but he helps them every step of the way for the most part.

600
00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:06.239
And that when you look back in history, Nixon, you know, at the start of things kind of was, you know, kind of that good guy.

601
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:11.039
And then, of course, how much he fell and became this really odious, like, proto Trump figure.

602
00:51:11.099 --> 00:51:28.079
It's, you know, terrifying, but it's interesting how they captured Nixon at that time in history as he would have been perceived as more of a benevolent figure with the shades of paranoia that would eventually lead him down the track to being terrible and overstepping every bound.

603
00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:35.099
The conversation that the doctor and river have about Nixon in the TARDIS, I think, is really great.

604
00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:46.619
And one of the reasons it's great is in the context of last year, where we had cuddly Winston Churchill, which, you know, I thought was a massive problem with victory of the Daleks.

605
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.460
I thought that whitewashing Churchill was a very bad thing.

606
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:55.019
We do whitewash Jefferson slightly in this episode, I have to say.

607
00:51:55.079 --> 00:52:00.719
The doctor describes him as a sort of splendid chap or something like that, which is a bit upsetting.

608
00:52:00.780 --> 00:52:18.179
But I quite like the argument that River and the doctor have, where River has this sort of nuanced take on what Nixon is like, and the doctor gets grumpy with her for it, and she accuses him of being a hippie and he accuses her of being an archeologist.

609
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.699
And I think that that gets it.

610
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:24.900
The thing about Nixon is he's so he is kind of genial, isn't he?

611
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:28.440
And he really, next episode when he interacts with those scientists.

612
00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:30.300
He's actually really very charming.

613
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:34.079
Which was kind of part of his tactic in many ways.

614
00:52:34.139 --> 00:52:36.300
I think he was a little bit of a flatterer.

615
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.519
I think that's kind of how he got what he wanted.

616
00:52:38.579 --> 00:52:42.420
And, you know, it's what's so interesting is like how much of that was authentic.

617
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:53.280
Like he was just that kind of person and how much was him just sort of, you know, kissing, kissing people on the cheek in one moment and then going behind their back and trying to have them secretly arrested or wiretapped in the other.

618
00:52:53.760 --> 00:53:02.460
Like, I don't have a high opinion as someone who is an American citizen trying to be an Australian citizen trying to be both.

619
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:04.679
Um, I don't really have a high opinion of Nixon.

620
00:53:04.739 --> 00:53:05.940
I find him to be incredibly evil.

621
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.840
I thought he was sort of set the ground for all the stuff that Trump got away with.

622
00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:11.460
I think he is the proto Trump.

623
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:21.659
But I do see where, I think a lot of, a lot of that evil was acquired with power, whereas I think with Trump, it was just always there.

624
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:26.579
I think maybe Nixon probably not a great guy to begin with, but at least trying to do the right thing.

625
00:53:26.699 --> 00:53:30.480
And then, of course, the paranoia just completely took over.

626
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.980
He was always afraid of losing power.

627
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:33.659
He wiretapped everyone.

628
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:35.400
He did all these illegal shady things.

629
00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:38.820
Well, what's interesting is that he doesn't do that at first.

630
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:57.840
And I wonder if maybe that the whole idea of these crazy events happening, the silence, all this creepy sci-fi stuff, that's in universe, the explanation for why Nixon goes down that path because he's just had this crazy experience where he now feels like he has to be monitoring everything because the silence are always watching.

631
00:53:57.900 --> 00:53:59.400
It's a tipping point for him.

632
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:08.039
Yeah, and it takes place in 1969, so we never get the, um, the infamous 18.5 minutes, the missing 18.5 from the Watergate tapes.

633
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:11.639
That's always like a big mystery of like what was on those tapes.

634
00:54:11.699 --> 00:54:19.079
I wish they had talked about that more, but there was no way they could have fit that in there because it was, you know, that's, I think, 5 years after this takes place.

635
00:54:19.139 --> 00:54:23.699
And in a way, had they included that, that's what the story would have been about.

636
00:54:23.820 --> 00:54:24.840
Oh, absolutely.

637
00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:26.940
The silence being on those tapes.

638
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:27.420
Yeah.

639
00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:40.019
Whereas Stephen Moffatt's starting point for this was he came up with the idea of the silent because he thought, okay, I want a monster that explains why you hear your floorboards creak at night.

640
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:41.400
That was his starting point.

641
00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:48.059
So Stephen Moffatt says the reason the story is set in America is he thought, we haven't been to America.

642
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:49.079
Let's see if we can do this.

643
00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:50.940
So it's sort of the city of death thing.

644
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:51.780
We haven't been to Paris.

645
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:53.400
Let's see if we can do a story in Paris.

646
00:54:53.460 --> 00:55:03.000
However, according to Piers Wenger, the other executive producer, it was exactly because the show had been such a success in America over series 4 and 5.

647
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:06.300
And so let's keep that momentum going.

648
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:11.579
And the great thing is, Doctor of the Complete History puts that quote by Stephen Moffatt saying, oh no, we're not trying to court America.

649
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:13.019
It's just that we haven't been there before.

650
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:16.079
Straight away, you've got Piers Wunga saying, yes, of course we're trying to court America.

651
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:17.039
Yeah, isn't that wonderful?

652
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:22.800
But after Moffat came up with that, he's like, okay, well, if we're going to America, let's make it about the space race.

653
00:55:22.860 --> 00:55:24.119
Let's make it about landing on the moon.

654
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:24.900
Yeah, this is great.

655
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:26.579
Let's see who the president was then.

656
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.079
Oh my god, it's Nixon.

657
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:29.760
I have to include Nixon.

658
00:55:29.820 --> 00:55:31.980
And that was his kind of thought.

659
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:41.820
And then it was just this serendipity, according to Moffatt, of Nixon is obsessed with secrecy and recording people and he does refer to the missing 18 minutes.

660
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:48.659
So he was he was aware of that, but as you say, Max can't really include it in the story unless it's like a coder at the end.

661
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:53.880
So he sort of hints at it with some of the things the doctor says to Nixon.

662
00:55:54.420 --> 00:56:13.079
And yeah, it's just one of these things where Moffatt comes up with a very intricate idea, but then realises that other stuff that can link into it and he brings that in, which sort of, I think Moffatt is a little more spontaneous than some people give him credit for.

663
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:21.300
Like people think he constructs these intricate puzzle boxes, so everything's planned from go to woe and, you know, there's no room for any improvisation.

664
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:29.699
It's like you read him talking about his writing and he absolutely will be writing a script and then decide, actually, what do I want to have happen in this moment?

665
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:31.260
I want to have this character.

666
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:33.900
We'll find out if the actor is available later.

667
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:36.780
And there, it's kind of weird.

668
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:48.659
This story does give us that air of planning, but also an air of spontaneity, you know, in things like, um, He could have landed the TARDIS down the corridor, but instead he's like, I got to land it in the Oval Office.

669
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:53.940
Oh, but if I landed in the Oval Office, a bunch of men will run in with guns, how do I delay that by a minute?

670
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:55.380
Oh, the TARDIS can turn invisible.

671
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:58.679
Yeah, did that back in Patrick Trout and we can give it some justification.

672
00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:04.440
And you get that great bit where every setting the doctor makes, River just, no, no, it's like this.

673
00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:05.699
Are you touching something?

674
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:07.320
No, no, absolutely not.

675
00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:09.659
It's a very Romana thing to do.

676
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:10.440
Yes.

677
00:57:10.619 --> 00:57:14.940
Except Romana would tell him, no, this.

678
00:57:15.300 --> 00:57:20.579
I actually think that that scene is unbelievably brilliantly funny.

679
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:39.360
Like from the moment that they kind of land invisibly and and she does all of that sort of stuff to the incredible kind of discovery of Matt standing in the Oval Office taking notes and and then just sort of, yeah, waving his hand to say, you know, no, no, you just keep going, don't mind me.

680
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:44.880
And then him slamming into the tartars and fork.

681
00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:48.840
You know, and you know, then, you know, the legs, the nose, Mrs. Robinson.

682
00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:51.780
Oh, I hate you so much.

683
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:56.940
And the fact too, that the doctor knows that River's doing it.

684
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:04.800
Like he actually says, have you got the scanner working after he's declared that it doesn't work when we're invisible.

685
00:58:04.860 --> 00:58:05.820
He knows that.

686
00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:12.360
And when she says in the Tartars, I hate you, he knows that she said that because he says, no, you don't.

687
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:13.739
It's so good.

688
00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:15.659
Mrs. Robinson.

689
00:58:15.659 --> 00:58:17.159
Chemistry.

690
00:58:17.219 --> 00:58:17.940
So good.

691
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:19.619
Yeah, it's it's so funny.

692
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:37.500
Like, Stephen has the knack of just being able to put um, humourous spin on a serious situation, like that, um, The doctor, you know, could be shot by in the Oval Office and, uh, It's interesting.

693
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:49.019
I don't, I, it always sits uneasy with me in terms of when you start to involve historical figures that you kind of know, like more recent.

694
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:55.380
Like, I actually like Doctor Who avoiding that a lot of the time, rather than actually um, having something like Nixon.

695
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:59.039
Because I think you run the risk of falling flat.

696
00:58:59.099 --> 00:59:02.940
So at the time, I was very much like, oh, is this a good idea?

697
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:06.360
But I think it's watching it this time through.

698
00:59:06.420 --> 00:59:07.980
I really, really thoroughly enjoyed.

699
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:11.940
The performance of Nixon and what they're doing and what you've said maximum as well.

700
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:24.000
Um, but everything's intercut with humour, and um, and then, of course, when we get that poor woman, Joy, who gets exploded in the in the bathroom, like with her Star Trek alien and all of that.

701
00:59:24.059 --> 00:59:26.880
But, um, I love that.

702
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:29.219
It's such such secretary energy from Droy.

703
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:29.880
I love that.

704
00:59:30.539 --> 00:59:32.400
I love her performance.

705
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:36.239
I just, you know, and the fact that Amy's clever enough to record things as well on the phone.

706
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:40.500
And but I'm so sad that, you know, she got exploded.

707
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:51.360
That scene was what cemented the silence for me because of a very particular real life moment that happened when I was watching that scene.

708
00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:52.980
So just to set the setting.

709
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:54.900
It was the end of term.

710
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:56.460
I was, I think I was my partner.

711
00:59:56.519 --> 01:00:09.480
I might have been by myself, and I was, just for reasons I won't bore you with, I was off campus in kind of an annex, um, dorm room that was a cottage in Amherst, Massachusetts, and most of the people had gone home for semester.

712
01:00:09.539 --> 01:00:14.940
So I was in this old creaky house, literally next to Emily Dickinson's homestead.

713
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:24.659
I kid you not And I was watching this and I think there was either a storm or there was something going on with my laptop where the battery wasn't working where I'd forgot to plug it in.

714
01:00:24.719 --> 01:00:25.500
It was one of those things.

715
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:27.539
But we were watching, I was watching this.

716
01:00:27.539 --> 01:00:34.079
And the moment where the silence bugs out and it has that creepy mouth. almost like an anus.

717
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:34.980
It's really upsetting.

718
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:41.039
Um, and it like shoots the lightning out in the peak of that, my power went off.

719
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:43.500
And I was in the dark.

720
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:46.619
And I was just like, ha.

721
01:00:46.679 --> 01:00:51.960
So that's why I remembered this episode very clearly because that was not a fun time for me at all.

722
01:00:52.019 --> 01:00:54.599
It's utterly terrifying, isn't it?

723
01:00:54.659 --> 01:00:56.760
Just amazingly frightening.

724
01:00:56.820 --> 01:01:00.360
And then when Amy says, you know, you didn't have to kill her.

725
01:01:00.420 --> 01:01:01.619
Why did you kill her?

726
01:01:01.619 --> 01:01:05.219
and it responds and it says its 1st word joy.

727
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:08.400
And it's just like, holy crap, what do you mean?

728
01:01:08.460 --> 01:01:10.440
And then it just turns out to be the lady's name.

729
01:01:10.500 --> 01:01:14.039
But it is really, really terrifying.

730
01:01:14.099 --> 01:01:16.619
They're properly scary, I think, in a way.

731
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:22.019
Like, I think they're more scary than the, um, than the angels even.

732
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:23.039
I'm gonna go there.

733
01:01:23.099 --> 01:01:34.139
I think, you know, there's something disgusting about the sort of the whatever KY jelly they're smearing over the rubber masks and gloves.

734
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.139
You know, the noises they make.

735
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:39.840
There's all sorts of clicking sounds that they make.

736
01:01:39.900 --> 01:01:47.820
Just the slowness of their movements, the disgusting giant turkey hands.

737
01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:50.460
And their mouths. so upsetting.

738
01:01:50.519 --> 01:02:01.079
But you have to give it to Stephen, you know, for the angels and now these guys, you know, rather than necessarily relying on old, the Daleks again or the cybermen or whatever, you know, that's a big call.

739
01:02:01.139 --> 01:02:05.760
I think he's more confident in creating sort of iconic Doctor Who monsters than Russell is.

740
01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:08.880
You know, it's like, oh, it's a person with a rhinoceros head.

741
01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:10.199
It's a person with a cat head.

742
01:02:10.260 --> 01:02:11.820
Like it's a person with a fly head.

743
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:13.860
You know, like he sort of, he does that.

744
01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:19.440
And that's all fine and that's fun and like he's not trying to create iconic Doctor Who monsters, I think.

745
01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:26.760
But Moffat does too, I think, of the most striking and interesting monsters.

746
01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:37.559
And look, I mean, in a way, the silence are just the opposite of the angels in that you have to keep looking at them otherwise, you can't see them anymore.

747
01:02:37.619 --> 01:02:40.380
You know, they're not monsters that you.

748
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:42.119
Well, no, in fact, are they the same?

749
01:02:42.179 --> 01:02:43.860
You have to keep looking at them otherwise they get you.

750
01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:45.119
Yeah, you have to kind of keep looking at them.

751
01:02:45.179 --> 01:02:45.960
Yeah, yeah.

752
01:02:46.019 --> 01:02:51.900
I think the difference is and what makes them scarier is that when you're looking at a weeping angel, you're safe.

753
01:02:52.019 --> 01:02:56.820
When you are only in danger from a silent when you look at it.

754
01:02:56.940 --> 01:03:00.539
Well, except that when they're when you're not looking at it.

755
01:03:00.659 --> 01:03:02.099
Oh yeah, no, you're right.

756
01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:09.119
But when you're not looking at it, you could be carrying out the weird post-hypnotic suggestion things, you know, you're still under their control.

757
01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:10.019
That's true.

758
01:03:10.019 --> 01:03:10.440
That's true.

759
01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:13.019
Which they didn't really play with that as much as they could have.

760
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:17.340
With the silence, you know, kind of putting the hypnosis on them.

761
01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:20.460
That just seemed to be kind of like the doctor's MO.

762
01:03:20.519 --> 01:03:28.860
Well, other than, of course, the guy, the fellow, the next episode, but I just didn't seem that, that, that, it took for, took a while for that to click for me, that that's what they were doing.

763
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:32.880
I think when we see more of the silence next week, it'll become more relevant.

764
01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:33.599
I think.

765
01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:34.019
Yeah.

766
01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:38.519
If I could just say 11 thing about joy before we move on.

767
01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:49.320
First of all, I just love the actress is giving a performance, which is clearly I'm in Doctor Who for 3 lines and then I get a death.

768
01:03:49.380 --> 01:03:54.900
She is having the time of her life as she's doing that death scene.

769
01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.119
And also her name is Nancy Baldwin.

770
01:03:57.179 --> 01:03:58.199
No relation.

771
01:03:58.380 --> 01:04:00.719
Is she American or British?

772
01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:03.900
I don't even know that much to be honest with you.

773
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:04.440
But yeah.

774
01:04:04.500 --> 01:04:11.880
Because she was doing that accent that's so it feels like a put on, but it also like is like, oh, no, she's from Yonkers.

775
01:04:11.940 --> 01:04:13.440
She's your aunt from Yonkers.

776
01:04:13.500 --> 01:04:15.420
She brings cookies over.

777
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:17.039
She was at your bar mitzvah.

778
01:04:17.099 --> 01:04:19.800
Like, that's kind of the vibe I got from her.

779
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:23.280
It's very period as well, that accent.

780
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:24.000
Do you know what I mean?

781
01:04:24.059 --> 01:04:25.860
It is very kind of 1960s.

782
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:30.360
Is she Frenchy?

783
01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:31.500
From Greece?

784
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:32.760
Oh, that's great.

785
01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:34.199
She was born in New York.

786
01:04:34.619 --> 01:04:36.300
So there you go.

787
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:37.139
There you go.

788
01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:38.639
Oh she's authentic.

789
01:04:38.699 --> 01:04:41.639
And she's in Mamma Mia, so you know she can't sing.

790
01:04:41.699 --> 01:04:46.679
But of course, you know, that scene again with her, you know, Amy's feeling sick in the restroom.

791
01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:48.239
We know that she's pregnant.

792
01:04:48.300 --> 01:04:52.320
You know, we're reinforcing you. you can only remember you while we sue you.

793
01:04:52.559 --> 01:05:07.440
By taking the photo, there's important information there. counting towards, you know, the buildup of the monsters and the season mystery before we now move on to obviously investigating the warehouse in Florida where the little astronaut girl actually is.

794
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:17.519
Friend of the podcast, Joe Ford, was saying that he thinks that that final scene is very slow, and we do spend quite a lot of time in the warehouse.

795
01:05:17.579 --> 01:05:26.579
But my feeling is that quite a lot is going on, and, you know, that it's, it's got a lot of atmosphere as well.

796
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:33.059
I rewatched these episodes with friend of the podcast, Matt H.

797
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:43.559
And he struck on something very interesting, which is those scenes, there's all that smoke and gunge in those warehouse scenes.

798
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:51.420
And that sort of makes it feel lived in, gives it depth of field, and the lighting is mostly from underneath.

799
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:53.519
So it casts interesting shadows on the face.

800
01:05:53.579 --> 01:05:55.980
It's very axe files, isn't it?

801
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:57.000
Yeah, yeah.

802
01:05:57.059 --> 01:05:57.719
Yeah.

803
01:05:57.780 --> 01:06:04.019
Again, that very creepy, unique American sci-fi motif going on in the background.

804
01:06:05.820 --> 01:06:11.699
And so I guess what's our job in in this warehouse scene.

805
01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:12.780
What are we trying to do here?

806
01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:24.059
Look, there is so much going on, you know, you, you know, Canton gets to, to, um, travelling the TARDIS and Rory gets to do the explanation, you know, about, about that.

807
01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:28.739
You've also got, you know, the investigation of the alien technology in the suit.

808
01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:34.860
There's lots of flirting between River and the doctor, and Rory gets to spend some time with River as well.

809
01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:48.119
Um, and, you know, building up the whole mystery, you know, with, you know, the investigating of the tunnels and noticing that they're really old and and river, like also saying, like, I know him more, he knows me less, the worst day is coming.

810
01:06:48.179 --> 01:06:50.880
There's just so much building of, of information.

811
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:53.639
Like for everybody, like for the audience.

812
01:06:53.699 --> 01:07:03.539
Um, so I think it's like reinforcing all these different things from the pregnancy to what's going on with the spacesuit to, to, to rivers, foreboding, you know?

813
01:07:03.599 --> 01:07:18.840
We also get the payoff of the weird spaceship in the lodger, which I remember being at the tie being like, okay, well, why was this never addressed, knowing that the silence thing was still going to be an ongoing arc the next season.

814
01:07:18.900 --> 01:07:21.780
And we finally get to see, oh, that's them.

815
01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:28.500
And it kind of hammers home how sinister they are because it's like, oh, they really have been being built up to these creatures for a while then.

816
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:33.659
I didn't even realise that maximum at all until I watched this and I went, hang on, the penny clicked.

817
01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:34.800
Like, you know, this was in the lodger.

818
01:07:34.860 --> 01:07:38.039
They've got a hand in that, you know, I had no idea.

819
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:40.380
Like I just thought, oh, they just reused a step.

820
01:07:40.440 --> 01:07:41.579
Why have they reused this for?

821
01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:44.280
I think they have just reused to say it.

822
01:07:45.719 --> 01:07:49.800
But and I don't think that it was in any way intentional.

823
01:07:49.860 --> 01:07:54.840
I don't think that that mystery was introduced in the lodger with the intention of paying it off later.

824
01:07:54.900 --> 01:07:56.940
But am I wrong, Brendan?

825
01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:16.380
I have to disagree with you there because there is a bit in the lodger where, um, when they go in, there's there's obviously dead bodies on the floor, which you don't properly see because they hadn't designed the silence yet, but when the doctor's talking to Amy, He's like, I've got no clue whose ship it was, there was no one in there.

826
01:08:18.779 --> 01:08:25.800
And there's just, it's, and at the time, I don't recall anyone going, but hold on, there was a body in there.

827
01:08:25.859 --> 01:08:27.000
That's good.

828
01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:28.199
I'd forgotten about the body.

829
01:08:28.260 --> 01:08:29.520
I don't think I ever saw a body there.

830
01:08:29.699 --> 01:08:32.039
So that's not a continuity thing.

831
01:08:32.100 --> 01:08:34.319
That's actually foreshadowing.

832
01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:35.399
Yeah, I think so.

833
01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:35.939
I think so.

834
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:43.680
And yeah, I believe it is a bit of foreshadowing, which if you miss it, It doesn't detract.

835
01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:47.159
But if you draw that connection, it can be made.

836
01:08:47.220 --> 01:08:48.840
I don't think it's something explicit.

837
01:08:48.899 --> 01:09:00.359
Like, you know, it's not something that TARDIS Wiki says is definitely the case kind of thing, but it's something that fans can argue about because of course Stephen Moffatt, you know, he was a fan.

838
01:09:00.420 --> 01:09:08.340
He was writing in the Virgin novels era where it's like every bit of continuity must be explained with something that happened on ancient Galifrey with the Pythia.

839
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:13.020
So he knows that fans like arguing about this sort of thing and make podcasts about it.

840
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:15.180
So that's his gift.

841
01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:16.199
His gift tools.

842
01:09:31.260 --> 01:09:39.119
Can I say that I think that that speech of Rivers, the speech that River gives to Rory, is amazingly great.

843
01:09:39.659 --> 01:09:43.739
And it's nothing that we don't know about already.

844
01:09:43.800 --> 01:10:00.420
I think that maybe for a returning audience, the full explanation of the way that River and the doctor's relationship works is necessary, but it also works on its own terms and it's paid off just amazingly beautifully next week.

845
01:10:00.420 --> 01:10:02.699
I think it's really good.

846
01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:04.979
It doesn't need to be there.

847
01:10:05.039 --> 01:10:07.199
It is a purely kind of character thing.

848
01:10:07.260 --> 01:10:12.539
It's purely there to give Alex Kingston the chance to do some real proper acting.

849
01:10:12.899 --> 01:10:16.380
And I just think it's magnificent.

850
01:10:16.859 --> 01:10:19.560
Because quite often she's been quite...

851
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:33.720
River's quite flippant and evasive and doing the one-liners, but to have actually sort of state some fairly serious stuff, like, you know, without sort of taking that overly humourous, sort of deflecting sort of line. you know, it's very powerful.

852
01:10:33.779 --> 01:10:38.460
Um, and also just the investigation of all those tunnels with all the silence as well.

853
01:10:38.579 --> 01:10:39.479
It's very creepy.

854
01:10:39.539 --> 01:10:41.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

855
01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:45.720
And I just love the kind of all clear thing that happens sort of repeatedly.

856
01:10:45.779 --> 01:10:48.359
So it's like, you know, they just turn out...

857
01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:52.920
It's like the get out of the house moment, to the audience. like, no, don't.

858
01:10:52.979 --> 01:10:54.479
They can't do anything.

859
01:10:54.659 --> 01:10:57.000
And that's what makes them so frightening.

860
01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:06.359
The way they huddle together too, there's something like super gross about how there's a sort of quality of them all sort of touching and yeah, like huddled together.

861
01:11:06.420 --> 01:11:07.439
There's no strau-esque.

862
01:11:07.500 --> 01:11:08.039
Yeah, yeah.

863
01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:09.720
So I guess to go back to what you're saying, Nathan.

864
01:11:09.779 --> 01:11:16.680
I think this whole warehouse sequence is just to reinforce so many different points throughout the episode for the new audience.

865
01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:18.779
As well as the old.

866
01:11:19.020 --> 01:11:24.539
Yeah, I think the Amy's pregnancy thing, which is very odd.

867
01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:39.060
Um, and we will talk about that all year, but, you know, very, very early on the doctor says to Amy, you've put on a few pounds, and that's just like a little kind of inappropriate thing that the doctor says because he's an idiot.

868
01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:45.000
And then she's sick and that's absolutely universal television shorthand for she's pregnant.

869
01:11:45.060 --> 01:11:47.640
That's the only reason a woman's ever sick on TV.

870
01:11:50.279 --> 01:12:02.039
And so we know, but there's also an ambiguity about that too, because the silent in the bathroom told Amy to tell the doctor something.

871
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:07.979
Is that what the silent wanted Amy to tell the doctor?

872
01:12:08.100 --> 01:12:11.460
Oh, I think...

873
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:20.159
Did she say I have to tell the doctor because I have to warn him that there is something bigger going on here than just, um, Nixon being Nixon.

874
01:12:20.579 --> 01:12:33.840
Maybe, but the silence says, tell the doctor, the thing that he knows and the thing that he can't know, or something, the thing he doesn't know and the thing he can't know, I can't remember the dialogue exactly, but I mean, there's some ambiguity.

875
01:12:33.899 --> 01:12:40.920
I think that we're supposed to think that her telling the doctor so urgently, like the thing is coming to kill them.

876
01:12:40.979 --> 01:12:41.760
Do you know what I mean?

877
01:12:41.819 --> 01:12:48.359
you know, and she still has to tell the doctor that she's pregnant. and it's, is it the silent making her do that?

878
01:12:49.319 --> 01:13:01.800
So what is there, and I have a lot of issues with the silence in the later half of the season, which I think actually undercuts how frightening they are because it makes them feel less frightening when you discover they're kind of a subordinate race, really.

879
01:13:01.859 --> 01:13:09.539
Um, I was under of the understanding that the silent snow, they can't kill the doctor in this time period.

880
01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:19.619
So really everything they're doing is just to kind of ensure the plan goes along smoothly at this point that the doctor will still die in 2011.

881
01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:24.600
Are they conscious of the fact that they're trying to undo that plan?

882
01:13:24.659 --> 01:13:28.859
Like, I mean, do they share a brain across the time stream?

883
01:13:28.920 --> 01:13:36.359
Like, do they, you know, their silence in 2011, just kind of giving, like, texting the silence anxiety scene and being like, oh, heads up, they come in.

884
01:13:36.420 --> 01:13:38.340
No, they just remember it from then.

885
01:13:38.939 --> 01:13:47.880
So it's just a lot of, now I don't want to say plot hole because I think that's a little bit, that's not fair, but there's something going on here that I don't really understand.

886
01:13:47.939 --> 01:13:48.720
That's not clicking for me.

887
01:13:49.199 --> 01:13:58.020
I think that it is a fairly typical feature of Moffat's mysteries that sometimes he doesn't want you to push too hard on them.

888
01:13:59.640 --> 01:14:02.039
I think that's actually what it goes.

889
01:14:02.100 --> 01:14:04.319
Yeah, it's a paradox.

890
01:14:04.380 --> 01:14:11.039
You know, it's are the silence doing this because of something the doctor's done or is the doctor acting because the silence are doing this.

891
01:14:11.100 --> 01:14:19.859
And later on, Moffat will do a story where it's like, okay, no, we're going to address that this is about a paradox with Peter Capaldi under the lake and before the flood.

892
01:14:19.979 --> 01:14:30.180
And the response to that range is from, oh my god, it's so clever, which is sort of how I look at the story, 2 people going, oh my god, that's so prosaic that you're actually explaining what the paradox is.

893
01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:43.380
So I, yeah, I think, I think, as you say, this is more for wanting you not to push too hard, not because he's afraid the whole thing is going to fall over, but because he's kind of, I think Moffatt's saying, that's that's not the thing that matters.

894
01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.979
The thing that matters is the adventure and whatnot.

895
01:14:47.100 --> 01:15:12.060
But I think he's also going, if you really think it matters, though, I look forward to your book of fan writings about it, I look forward to your discontinuity guide, because he's very much a Terence Dix kind of writer in that way in that he Moffatt loves the imagination of fans and he gives fans plenty of sort of playground to play in with his ideas by not nailing everything down.

896
01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:22.079
And there are a lot of things to criticise Moffat 4 and how he relates to characters, say, who are women or who are queer.

897
01:15:22.140 --> 01:15:44.880
But at the same time, I do think he's a writer who listens to fan feedback because things that are criticised in one season, you can see him trying to address in the following season, not always successfully, but I think because he is such a fan himself and was a fan at a time when the show was at its height then when it was off, and now he's writing for it at its height again.

898
01:15:44.939 --> 01:15:55.979
Even though I think around this time he removed himself from social media, because, you know, people were sending him, uh, disgusting messages, basically.

899
01:15:56.039 --> 01:15:58.500
Um, you know, then...

900
01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:04.199
Yeah, there's there, you know, there's literary criticism, and then there's being an answer.

901
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:15.420
But I always get the impression watching Moffat subsequent season, it's like, okay, somehow you have heard what people were criticising from a point of view of, I love what you're doing, but can you do more of this?

902
01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:23.939
And even though there are elements of this story arc, I don't enjoy the season-long story arc.

903
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:27.180
It is so intricately plotted that I respect the craft of it.

904
01:16:28.319 --> 01:16:30.239
And that starts here.

905
01:16:30.300 --> 01:16:33.600
And I agree with you then. completely.

906
01:16:33.659 --> 01:16:38.760
Um, And so I guess that leads us into the cliffhanger.

907
01:16:39.300 --> 01:16:56.399
With, you know, everything in slow motion, Amy, you know, I'm pregnant, an astronaut, raising an arm and uh, and then Amy grabbing a gun and screaming and shooting at a small girl in an astronaut's.

908
01:16:57.779 --> 01:17:00.479
Where did she learn how to shoot a gun?

909
01:17:00.539 --> 01:17:01.140
She's British.

910
01:17:02.460 --> 01:17:12.060
Remember that moment in the Oval Office where the doctor only realises that he's under threat from being shot when someone calls out their Americans?

911
01:17:12.180 --> 01:17:14.399
Okay, so what just go?

912
01:17:14.399 --> 01:17:23.100
So dark about that is that this was before the big mass school shootings happened so you could still make jokes about that and they were funny.

913
01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:24.899
Now it's just like, oh.

914
01:17:25.079 --> 01:17:26.699
It was not funny anymore.

915
01:17:26.819 --> 01:17:29.760
That's a little funny What do we feel about the cliffhanger?

916
01:17:29.819 --> 01:17:31.260
Amy shoots a little girl in the face.

917
01:17:31.319 --> 01:17:32.880
How do we feel about that?

918
01:17:33.180 --> 01:17:36.060
I'm for it, spoiler alert.

919
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:38.460
Oh, yeah.

920
01:17:38.460 --> 01:17:40.500
So you're 4 little girls being shot in the field.

921
01:17:40.500 --> 01:17:41.399
So that's now recorded.

922
01:17:41.399 --> 01:17:44.039
She wasn't quite sure what she was doing.

923
01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:47.520
She had it coming.

924
01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:50.159
No, I'm fine with it.

925
01:17:50.220 --> 01:17:50.939
I'm fine with them.

926
01:17:51.000 --> 01:17:55.140
You know, Amy picking up a gun and trying to solve the situation.

927
01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:57.960
I mean, Rory and River have their cliffhanger.

928
01:17:58.020 --> 01:18:04.739
It's all, you know, I have to say that I can't remember Orion and Rivers Cliffhanger.

929
01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:05.520
What's happening to them?

930
01:18:05.579 --> 01:18:07.500
Are they struggling to escape the silence?

931
01:18:07.619 --> 01:18:18.060
They're in, they're in the silent ship and um, Rivers fiddling with the controls and Rory, and she's like, Rory, watch the door, and he watches the door and he keeps getting, seeing the silence getting closer.

932
01:18:18.119 --> 01:18:20.159
And then when he turns to tell River, It's like, no, it's fine.

933
01:18:20.220 --> 01:18:22.920
And then he turns around and gets scared and no, it's fine.

934
01:18:22.979 --> 01:18:29.699
And then on the 3rd time, River is giving some techno babble and there's a flash of light behind her and she says, Rory, and it cuts away.

935
01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:30.720
Oh, wow, okay.

936
01:18:30.779 --> 01:18:32.039
So that's their cliffhanger.

937
01:18:32.100 --> 01:18:33.779
Actually, no, I know what I think.

938
01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:37.199
I thought at the time, Stephen's greater than the mould.

939
01:18:37.260 --> 01:18:43.319
We haven't had a cliffhanger 2 parter at the beginning of the season from this point forward in the show.

940
01:18:43.380 --> 01:18:55.020
We won't have that same structure that we've had for the last 5 seasons in terms of, you know, opening episode, early 2 parter, late, uh, mid 2 parter, late 2 parter, that's never here ever again.

941
01:18:55.079 --> 01:18:56.220
He's now doing his own thing.

942
01:18:56.279 --> 01:18:57.359
It's completely different.

943
01:18:57.479 --> 01:19:00.180
That's part of what I was thinking.

944
01:19:00.239 --> 01:19:05.699
And I think, I think the tone of this is vastly different from any previous opener too.

945
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:23.880
Like, I think he's breaking the mould already, just right from the very beginning, by making it this sort of massive world-spanning, you know, serious-ish Doctor Who serious epic, you know, instead of little fat people kind of, you know, wandering along the streets and stuff, you know, fun and light.

946
01:19:23.939 --> 01:19:24.899
It's not that at all.

947
01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:29.819
Russell T Davies pushed the envelope by making comments on society.

948
01:19:29.880 --> 01:19:31.560
You know what I mean?

949
01:19:31.619 --> 01:19:32.760
And they were big sweeping things.

950
01:19:32.819 --> 01:19:44.699
So the adipose with the little fat people was about the weight loss industry and body image and what have you, but packaged in such a way that you can just enjoy a nice little romp with little fat blobs.

951
01:19:44.760 --> 01:19:49.680
Whereas Stephen Moffat pushes the envelope in a very personal manner.

952
01:19:49.739 --> 01:19:52.380
Amy has just said she's pregnant.

953
01:19:52.439 --> 01:19:55.140
She's going to have a child and then she shoots a child.

954
01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:57.960
Same child, actually it turns out.

955
01:19:58.020 --> 01:19:58.800
Same here.

956
01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:01.020
Small world.

957
01:20:01.800 --> 01:20:07.739
But yeah, it's kind of like Moffat Moffat will push the envelope by saying, yeah, these are your heroes.

958
01:20:07.800 --> 01:20:11.819
Look at them doing something really questionable and let's talk about that.

959
01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:15.779
Whereas Russell will say, look at the world doing something really questionable.

960
01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:16.560
Turn left.

961
01:20:16.619 --> 01:20:21.300
World War 3 and he says, let's talk about the world.

962
01:20:21.359 --> 01:20:24.000
Whereas Stephen Moffatt says, let's talk about our characters.

963
01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:29.340
And there's strengths and weaknesses to both approaches, but last year was Stephen doing Russell.

964
01:20:29.460 --> 01:20:35.760
He does Russell's format at the, as you say, Todd, this year, it's Stephen Moffatt goes, well, why can't we have a two-parter to open?

965
01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:38.159
Let's have a two-part.

966
01:20:38.220 --> 01:20:39.899
We've already established who these people are.

967
01:20:39.960 --> 01:20:46.560
We'll have a quick montage at the beginning telling everyone who they are again and then we are off and we are having a full-blooded 90 minute adventure.

968
01:20:46.739 --> 01:20:57.060
But also, you know, he's posed all these questions like the doctor's deaths, Amy's pregnant, silence, worst day for a river to come, and yet we're still not going to get any resolution in this episode.

969
01:20:57.119 --> 01:20:59.640
So you know, you've still got to come back next week.

970
01:21:00.899 --> 01:21:07.979
No, and I don't think she and so for the record, the way I interpret it seems, I don't think she was cognisant that it was a little girl.

971
01:21:07.979 --> 01:21:09.779
I think everything was kind of happening at once.

972
01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:14.579
And then when she shot the gun, That's when she realised, oh, it's a little girl and it was too late.

973
01:21:14.640 --> 01:21:17.279
Of course, it's, you know, not too late as we find out.

974
01:21:17.340 --> 01:21:17.640
But.

975
01:21:18.300 --> 01:21:19.859
Yeah, yeah.

976
01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:24.720
And again, great acting from Karen in that moment, just sort of face acting.

977
01:21:24.779 --> 01:21:28.500
We've joked on the podcast before, you know, watching Billy Piper.

978
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:31.800
The game is to pick what part of her face is biggest in each shot.

979
01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:40.800
And with Karen, it's always the eye. those amazing eyes and she can act so well with them.

980
01:21:40.859 --> 01:21:47.340
Like she is so expressive that she can tell you the character's mood without a single word.

981
01:21:47.399 --> 01:21:49.560
Yeah, good for her.

982
01:22:15.300 --> 01:22:17.579
Well, maybe, sir, that's all.

983
01:22:17.640 --> 01:22:18.600
We have time for this week.

984
01:22:18.659 --> 01:22:23.520
We'll be back next week for an episode of a different show all together in Day of the Moon.

985
01:22:23.819 --> 01:22:40.020
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flight through entirety on Facebook, at FT Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, flightsthroughentirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody Interterra.

986
01:22:40.140 --> 01:22:43.020
So, Maxwell, where can people find you?

987
01:22:43.500 --> 01:23:02.460
So for a podcast called Relic, the Lost Treasure podcast, which you can just Google, it's on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, everything, if you want to connect with me online, I'm really overly active, arguably too active on Twitter, and that's just at Lost Treasure Pod.

988
01:23:02.520 --> 01:23:10.619
I'm also streaming every Final Fantasy known to Man on Twitch and you could find me there at Treasure Hunter Maxwell.

989
01:23:10.979 --> 01:23:18.180
Until next time, if you run into Jim the Fish, remember to give him a big sloppy kiss from Brendan and me.

990
01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:20.939
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

991
01:23:21.000 --> 01:23:22.680
Blub, blah.

992
01:23:22.739 --> 01:23:23.699
See you soon.

993
01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:24.420
Bye.

994
01:23:28.920 --> 01:23:35.279
That was Flight through entirety, Star and Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, Maxwell Covialo and Brendan Jones.

995
01:23:35.340 --> 01:23:37.560
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

996
01:23:37.619 --> 01:23:44.220
This episode, Shades of Paranoia, was recorded on the 1st of August 2021 and released on the 12th of September.

997
01:23:44.819 --> 01:23:58.619
Fans of listening to the friends and hosts of this podcast talking about ropey BBC science fiction series will also enjoy maximum power, an exciting new podcast about Blake 7, which will be launching on the 19th of this month.

998
01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:04.079
That's at maximumpowerpodcast.com and at maximumpowerpod on Twitter.

999
01:24:05.340 --> 01:24:08.699
I think that we've gotten out.

1000
01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:09.659
Do you know what I mean?

1001
01:24:09.779 --> 01:24:15.239
And I think that I'm going to, I might rearrange some things and move Tods thing to the end.

1002
01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:17.460
But I think that we've got an out.

1003
01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:19.800
We've gone quite long, like it's an hour and a half .

1004
01:24:21.600 --> 01:24:28.920
I thought that we would struggle to talk for 50 minutes about this episode because it is kind of a bit linear, but there's a lot going on.

1005
01:24:28.979 --> 01:24:32.819
So let's take a quick break.

1006
01:24:32.880 --> 01:24:34.500
Do you want to do an outro?

1007
01:24:34.560 --> 01:24:36.960
Oh, I never remember that.

1008
01:24:37.020 --> 01:24:39.359
And I've only done how many episodes of this.

1009
01:24:39.420 --> 01:24:40.680
Let me do an outro.

1010
01:24:40.739 --> 01:24:41.520
Jesus Christ.

1011
01:24:41.579 --> 01:24:43.140
What are we up to, 214?

1012
01:24:43.199 --> 01:24:45.479
This is episode 216.

1013
01:24:45.720 --> 01:24:46.920
Oh there you go.

1014
01:24:46.979 --> 01:24:51.000
To be fair to me, I've only been doing the outro since episode 132.

1015
01:24:51.239 --> 01:24:52.859
Yeah, still a baby.

1016
01:24:53.100 --> 01:24:55.500
When did you when did you start?

1017
01:24:55.619 --> 01:24:56.460
With Doctor Who?

1018
01:24:56.520 --> 01:24:57.840
At the very, very beginning.

1019
01:24:58.319 --> 01:25:02.220
So with the... on Earth, the child.

1020
01:25:02.279 --> 01:25:02.939
Oh, wow.

1021
01:25:03.000 --> 01:25:06.420
Yeah, so I was the primary host for all of the classic series.

1022
01:25:06.539 --> 01:25:12.359
Um, and then with the new series, Nathan took over as primary host and I do about half of them now.

1023
01:25:12.420 --> 01:25:13.560
Oh my gosh.

1024
01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:17.880
Since 2014.

1025
01:25:18.539 --> 01:25:19.979
Yeah.

1026
01:25:20.039 --> 01:25:21.899
It's a labour of love.

1027
01:25:21.960 --> 01:25:22.800
All right, here goes.