WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:30:33

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight to Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast that spends increasing amounts of time

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standing in the kitchen wondering what we came in here for.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Maxwell.

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Well, it's the 1st episode of a new season, so it's time to

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celebrate with the show's most upsetting picnic since those

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awkward ones with the Dr. Perry and Shara's Jack on Andrazani

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Minor.

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Someone has killed the doctor, so let's see if we can work out who

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the hell it is in the Impossible Astronaut.

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So, Maxwell, you're new to the podcast.

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So, I was wondering, um, what are your overall feelings about

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series 6?

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I think there's a few episodes that are a bit middling, but

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overall, I love the whole arc.

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Am I allowed to be a bit vague about that or can I talk broadly

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about spoilers and stuff?

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Whatever you like.

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So the fact that we, this is, to me, the river song season.

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I think the twist in the mid-season was brilliant.

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I think the setup was great.

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I love the suspense.

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Um, I think there was one aspect of her identity that could have

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been handled better, but overall, I thought this is really great.

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And for me, I consider this to be the quote unquote American

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season because of the shooting locations largely.

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And, um, I think just where we were at in Doctor Who history with

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how it got so big in America at the time, them shooting in New

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York, them shooting in Utah.

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I think that was kind of maybe to cater sort of, not to cater, but

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to, um, maybe as a little bit of a nod to their American audience

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which I don't think, as Americans were ever deserving of such

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respect.

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I feel about America in many ways how the doctor feels about

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leaving Gallifry.

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It's the planet I left because they were a bunch of jerks and I

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will only go back to indulge them every now and then with my

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presence.

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Um, But no, I actually thought that this was a really, the fact

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that they were using locales that they had never done before

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shooting on site in America.

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Really adding a cinematic feel that at that point in the reboot, we

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hadn't seen yet, just have those broad, just landscape shots of

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Utah, which are just like, just you could just put a spoon in

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them.

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It just, they're just so dense and beautiful and gorgeous, just

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delicious.

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Uh, it was all really amazing and just very interesting to see

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what the, um, the doctor who take on a very particular, very

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pivotal point of American history and really American identity.

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Just that was really interesting to see.

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Yeah, so we're a long way away from Lime Grove.

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This is really quite amazing looking TV, I think.

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Yeah, yeah, as as Maxwell says, the, the, what, I suppose, would

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have been drone shots flying through, um, I think we're in the

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Valley of the Kings in Utah for this filming was.

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Valley of the gods, I beg your pardon.

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Yeah, sorry, Valley of the Kings is, uh, same hemisphere.

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No, different.

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Anyway, my geography is terrible.

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But yeah, we get these sweeping shots through.

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And I kind of think, oh, you don't get that in Wales.

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It's like, well, why haven't they gone up the mountains again?

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Where's the, it's because Alan Jones is out there, isn't it?

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But yeah, it's a statement of intent that, okay, last year we

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started in this little sleepy village in Ledworth.

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This year, we're in America, but we're not sort of a plate shot of

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San Francisco and then the rest is filmed in Vancouver, which is

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what we had in 1996.

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We are in America.

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This is so recognisably America.

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We finally got here after, what, 25 years of trying.

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Yes, it's certainly not planet of spiders.

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I was going to say it's our 1st time shooting on location in

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America since the chase.

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Okay, no.

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So maybe we go to the beginning of the episode because one of the

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things that I really enjoyed about last year was just the kind of

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team, that Moffat had assembled, and the team that in particular

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you saw in his 22 part stories, the doctor, Amy, Rory, and River.

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And so we spend a little bit of time kind of reestablishing who

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they are and kind of gathering them together.

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It's a little bit like, you know, the opening moments of a heist

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movie.

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Yeah, it does have that feel to it.

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Uh, I loved how it just kind of sets off with the doctor's

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ridiculous antics throughout history.

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It's really got a frenetic energy right from the get-go, which is

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kind of different than the start of the previous season, which his

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bread had said, was sort of a sleepy village.

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Like, this is, like, it's a bang and we're off from the start.

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Um, it was really good to get reacquainted with Amy, who, um, I

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liked in this, uh, despite her get her constant gaslighting of

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Rory. which is a huge problem that no one ever talks about.

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And just, of course, you know, Alex Kingston is River is a delight

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from the start when she comes on screen and they're like, she's

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doing the thing again.

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She's packing.

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Like, they know that she's so confident she's gonna bust out of a

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storm cage prison and just, you know, go in her merry way.

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And yeah, just the way they introduced everything with her

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shooting the doctor Stetson off, you know, Amy being just like

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angry and ha, we have to do it and Roy just being along for the

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ride.

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It was it was good to see that cast together again.

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And of course, the doctor in his mysterious cowboy hat was pretty

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great.

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Yeah, but he's naked under some lady's skirt as well.

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It's a very different show from the Russell T. Games era.

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Well, I think we said that last year Moffatt kind of brought sex

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to the show in a way that hadn't really ever been done before.

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And that is going to sort of be a theme of this season.

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I just want to reiterate how much that thing where river shoots

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the doctor's hats off is the clearest evidence we've ever had that

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she is his wife and she doesn't want him to look like an idiot in

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public and because he is a massive idiot whenever he chooses some

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sort of ridiculously inappropriate head where she deals with it

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summarily, which I think is just absolutely marvellous.

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On the topic of that and the whole, the whole sex and marriage

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thing.

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I think at this point, Matt Smith is still very much playing the

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sexual and romance stuff like the doctor has heard of sex once.

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He read it in the back of a book.

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He thinks it might be a kind of serial, but he's not entirely

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sure.

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But people seem to have a lot of fun with it.

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So he'll give it a go.

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It's a different take than Tenant, because Tenant was sort of

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quite sexually confident. or at least sort of gave the, you know

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the impression of being sexually confident, even though that's

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sometimes sort of punctured, I think.

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But I think that perhaps Moffatt's a new kind of foray intersex

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for the show would have been a bit more problematic had the doctor

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not played it so completely clueless.

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I mean, having having tenants doctor up a lady skirt naked would

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have been utterly utterly unthinkable and unacceptable, I think.

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Yeah, yeah, it's like you can actually believe that Matt Smith's

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doctor has a perfectly innocent explanation for this.

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But I do like how they're bringing the team back together again.

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I mean, this is really the 1st time that we've had the same team.

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Opening a season as has been involved with the previous, every

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other season.

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There's been at least one change, or we're bringing a new team

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into it.

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So, Stephen's got to find a way to, um, We don't have new people.

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We've got the same cast, you know.

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And he needs to put the mystery front and centre and get them all

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sort of involved.

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Why is this happening, you know?

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I think too, that with what Maxwell said before, about this sort

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of new American focus, that he's really doing what you should do

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with episode one of any series, which is kind of reestablish what

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the show is about and reintroduce everyone.

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And I think that that's why we see Amy and Rory at home, you know

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so that we can actually see them in context.

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They're not travelling with the doctor like they were when we last

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saw them at Christmas.

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We get to see them sort of domestically being married.

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We get to see river in storm cage escaping again.

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We get reintroduced to everyone.

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And I think the show's job.

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I have this sort of thing.

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I have this thing where series 2 episode one is my favourite

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episode of any show.

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And this is series two, episode one of... specifically.

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No, because it has 2 jobs, doesn't it?

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It introduces the show to someone who's tuning in for the 1st time

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reestablishes what the show is about, and then shows us what new

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directions we're going to take it in.

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And I think that this is a really, really good series 2, episode

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one for all of those reasons.

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Yeah.

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Also, I do like how they establish that it's been some time since

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Amy and Rory have seen the doctor, which I thought was an

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important narrative point to make.

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Um, and yeah, it does sort of, if you had never seen an episode of

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Doctor Who before, I'm sure you're going to have sort of whiplash

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questions at the start because everything is just moving around so

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quickly.

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But you kind of get the idea that, oh, these are 2 human friends

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of this time travelling, presumably alien, who's, you know

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traipsing throughout history.

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And here's also this mysterious woman that's also somehow, you

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know, clearly a sci-fi setting that's also related to the doctor

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and they all know each other, and it's all about time travel, and

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they haven't seen him for a while, and clearly he's aged a bit.

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So it does kind of reintroduce everything.

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And also they talk about the time lords too.

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Yeah, very briefly in a very in a very digestible way where

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they're like, this is his race.

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They're time travellers.

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They can regenerate.

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This is how they work.

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And it all sets up so much.

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So even if the viewer has never seen an episode of Doctor Who or

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is maybe a casual, I guess is the word I would use.

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They understand every mechanic by the end of this episode.

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And I'm kind of just realising that now.

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And I think it's brilliant.

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Good writing.

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It's the scene where they're sinking their diaries as well, which

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is played for laughs in all sorts of ways, but it also sort of

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sets up the difference between our doctorate.

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How old is he?

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103?

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Yeah, yeah.

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1103.

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That's right.

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And the earlier doctor that we met before, but because Rory hasn't

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seen this and Amy has, back in the Angels two-parter last season

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she gets to explain to Rory in a completely organic way about the

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sinking the diary scene that's happening and that's funny as

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well.

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Jim the Fish is in it.

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Who's Jim the Fish?

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I choose to believe he is from the same species as the blowfish in

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torched in torchwood.

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Season two, episode one, which is one of the few episodes of

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Torchwood season 2 I've seen because I lost interest.

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Anyway, isn't he a half?

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Don't you think he's a half?

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He could be a half.

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That's what I was thinking.

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You've got to be careful of water though.

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Yeah, yeah, they drown.

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It's crazy.

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I also think that the Easter Island joke is absolutely superb.

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Just irresistible.

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And the 1st of many jokes about Matt's weird head that Moffat

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makes throughout. like a Moai statue.

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He does.

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He really does.

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Oh, God, that's funny.

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I'll discuss this more next week, but that was actually meant to

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have a strong payoff in the 2nd episode that was cut at the

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scripting stage for time.

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So I will talk more about that next week.

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So, we're having a picnic.

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By a lake.

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Yeah, yeah, a very upsetting picnic.

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This, I really like the pacing here too, because up until the

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picnic, everything is just us getting to know the characters and

246
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spending time with them.

247
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.320
And I think we liked doing that last year.

248
00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:05.039
So having the opportunity to do that this year is really

249
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:05.399
something.

250
00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:08.159
And you've got, you know, the doctor, not sure whether he's ever

251
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.639
drunk wine before and doing the wine thing that he did in the

252
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.059
lodger last year where he sort of spits it out and thinks it, you

253
00:14:15.059 --> 00:14:17.399
know, tasted more like the gums.

254
00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:20.580
I mean, all of that stuff is just so wonderful and funny.

255
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.299
And then it just takes this sort of hugely, horribly unexpected

256
00:14:24.299 --> 00:14:24.899
turn, I think.

257
00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:31.740
What also has that brief moment of just sheer WTFness where Amy

258
00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:36.480
looks askance to the distance and you just see this really creepy

259
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:41.460
kind of slender man-esque shadow, um, because of the way that the

260
00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:43.919
sun is positioned, you just kind of see the outline of the silence

261
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.679
and there's this weird noise and she's like, what's that?

262
00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:48.659
And she looked away and she's like, oh, I, what?

263
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:48.960
What?

264
00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:52.740
And you're just like, what, it's this, It's like 2 seconds of just

265
00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:57.960
really tone shift in a creepy way where you're not sure what's

266
00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:01.200
going on, but you already know that maybe this picnic isn't going

267
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.500
to end with everyone brings out the fruit salad and wraps up and

268
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:04.860
goes home.

269
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.679
Something really uncanny is gonna happen.

270
00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:12.120
It's a good idea too, because I think, you know, it's quite some

271
00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.120
distance into the episode that we 1st actually see the silence

272
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:15.840
properly.

273
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:21.840
And so doing this now, I think, is the right thing to do, and it

274
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:23.519
sets the entire thing up, doesn't it?

275
00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:26.759
We get to see what they look like and we get the sort of weird

276
00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:29.340
mystery of why Amy can't remember it.

277
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.879
And it's not that she's, you know, in another Doctor Who story.

278
00:15:32.940 --> 00:15:37.320
You can imagine her just sort of dismissing it because, you know

279
00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:40.320
we're showing it, but we don't want them to get involved in the

280
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.860
plot yet or something, but it is actually a thing that's properly

281
00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:44.879
happening in story.

282
00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:49.379
Yeah, those 1st few times people see a silence and then say, oh

283
00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:49.799
it's nothing.

284
00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:54.299
It's almost played like they, they, not that they've forgotten

285
00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:57.179
what they've seen, but oh, no, no, it must be a trick of the light

286
00:15:57.179 --> 00:15:58.080
kind of thing.

287
00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:02.159
And you're left wondering until, you know, Amy actually spells it

288
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.299
out midway through the episode, you're left wondering, oh, why

289
00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:07.980
aren't they saying what they've seen?

290
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.220
But I, Stefan, is really quite old school, Doctor Who?

291
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.720
Where you as a viewer are working that out before the characters

292
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:19.620
so you actually feel cleverer than them and I like that sort of

293
00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:21.120
thing, um, in particular.

294
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.700
I think it's a Moffat thing.

295
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:26.700
I do think that one of the things about the complexity of

296
00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:31.500
Moffatt's script is that sometimes they make you feel clever.

297
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.100
I mean, sometimes they make you feel, oh my god, how can I have

298
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:35.940
never thought of that?

299
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.480
And that's a frequent kind of response as well.

300
00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:43.860
But I think we said this in our last episode about the Christmas

301
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:48.480
carol, that there's a level of complexity in the scripts that is

302
00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:53.519
nevertheless all kind of carefully telegraphed and all sort of

303
00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:54.840
explained for you.

304
00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:56.700
While at the same time.

305
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.659
He is kind of relying on your attention as well.

306
00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:05.519
There's a reluctance to just sort of sit there and spell things

307
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:06.420
out for you, I think.

308
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:14.160
How did we feel about um, the really upsetting moment.

309
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:16.799
I was upset.

310
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:21.779
I remember watching it and I think I was 21, 22 at the time, and I

311
00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:25.980
knew enough that there hadn't been any hullabaloo about a doctor

312
00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:28.079
replacing him, so I knew he wasn't going to regenerate.

313
00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:29.759
And I knew he wasn't going to die.

314
00:17:29.819 --> 00:17:35.579
But I think that was okay because I, or I knew they weren't going

315
00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:37.799
to write him off because that's kind of hard to write off your

316
00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:38.579
title character.

317
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.180
Um, I guess that would beg a lot of interesting questions about

318
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:43.740
where the series would head after.

319
00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:49.559
But I was very curious to see how he was going to get out of his

320
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.920
own death, how he was going to fake his own death, which is kind

321
00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:53.819
of what I thought was happening.

322
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:59.460
I think there's a sort of, uh, there are particular fans who get

323
00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:03.359
very cross about this and say it's a cheat.

324
00:18:03.420 --> 00:18:05.220
Oh, God.

325
00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:08.160
Let's hear from one of them.

326
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:11.099
No, I was kind of like, oh, that's interesting.

327
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.559
I mean, there's clearly a payoff that's going to happen here.

328
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:15.180
He's obviously not permanently dead.

329
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.619
I mean, you know, oh, Kared Gillett is acting for the gods.

330
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.279
Oh my god. super upset, which apparently she was really upset.

331
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:27.059
Like, when that happened. according to some of the script notes

332
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:29.519
I've read, which, I mean, I would be too, I guess.

333
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.160
What do you think, Todd?

334
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:32.819
It's shading.

335
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.579
Oh, it's, I don't know.

336
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:36.420
It's, uh...

337
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:41.880
The fact that He's been killed off and you know that they have to

338
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:42.779
get out of it some way.

339
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:45.299
It's sort of like, well, you know, come.

340
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.279
I sit there going, well, okay, come on, so.

341
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:51.119
And I'm rolling my eyes now, listeners, but it's sort of like, I'm

342
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.279
just weighing, you know, how are you going to set that up?

343
00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:54.299
How you can get out of that?

344
00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:55.380
You've got to be really clever.

345
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.319
Oh, please don't be something so obvious, like, you know, at some

346
00:18:58.319 --> 00:18:58.559
point.

347
00:18:58.619 --> 00:19:04.920
Um, in the season, and so I don't know, at the time, it didn't sit

348
00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:06.299
well with me, right?

349
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:11.759
Um, But Stephen does a very different thing from Russell. we've

350
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:13.380
seen the science, we've got the doctor's death.

351
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:18.299
Later in this episode, Amy's pregnant or be, you know, so he's

352
00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:19.259
setting up everything.

353
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:22.920
Um, All the mysteries for the season, whereas, of course, Russell

354
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:25.799
introduces things, words, you know, throughout.

355
00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:29.460
And so it's a very different way of doing stuff.

356
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:33.180
I also think too, like at the time, coming off the season finale

357
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:36.960
and uh, the Christmas special, which I just consider like, you

358
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.319
know, through the most awesome episodes is ever written, plus the

359
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.160
angels one before that and uh, the 11th hour.

360
00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:49.440
And now in retrospect, um, the whale episode, like, I just think

361
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:50.220
they're all stunning.

362
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:53.819
So, you know, coming back to this, I'm not a big fan of this

363
00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:54.119
season.

364
00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:58.380
Like, I was not a big fan of when it all played out and I still

365
00:19:58.380 --> 00:20:01.079
haven't got problems with stuff further along down the track.

366
00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:05.940
Um, So, you know, when that happened, it was a huge shock.

367
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:06.480
Yes, certainly.

368
00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:08.400
And I'm going, 0 my goodness, but at the same time, my head's

369
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.200
going, 0 yeah, well, how are you going to get out of this one?

370
00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:12.839
you know, like, I don't know, like, you're not going to kill off

371
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:13.619
the main character.

372
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:13.980
So what?

373
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:14.339
you know?

374
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.880
Come up with some spacy waste you time you whimy thing, Stephen

375
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.119
you know?

376
00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:19.559
That's the sort of attitude I took.

377
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:21.359
Yeah.

378
00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:25.079
I think I'm about halfway between the 2 of you in that.

379
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:26.640
I watched that scene.

380
00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:31.259
I was living in the UK at the time and so there was a huge, huge

381
00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:34.680
buzz, you know, the doctor was coming back plus at that time we

382
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.079
knew it was going to be a split season and there were people going

383
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:38.759
oh my god, you know, this is horrible.

384
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:41.759
Who should always be a 3 month run and blah, blah, blah.

385
00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:43.920
Whereas a lot of other people were like, well, this is what

386
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:45.299
American television is doing.

387
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:47.880
You know, they have a midseason finale.

388
00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:51.599
So it was this idea of we've got this event run of 6 or 7

389
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:52.200
episodes.

390
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.660
Foreshadowing dear listener.

391
00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.900
But I remember the buzz around this scene at the time.

392
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.180
And I think I fall slightly in the middle in that.

393
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:06.059
I kind of went, okay, they're going to come up with some solution

394
00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:09.720
for this, but I actually looked forward to what the puzzle box

395
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:11.099
was.

396
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:11.400
Yeah.

397
00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:14.220
And to be quite honest with you, I'm not going to say too much

398
00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:17.819
about the end of the season, but when we got there, I only figured

399
00:21:17.819 --> 00:21:22.740
it out about 3 seconds before it actually happened on screen.

400
00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:25.500
So in retrospect.

401
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.519
I think it's a really well constructed mystery.

402
00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:31.980
As for fake out regenerations.

403
00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:35.400
We've had, I think, three.

404
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:39.779
So we've got the stolen earth, we've got this one, and we've got

405
00:21:39.779 --> 00:21:40.740
the lie of the land.

406
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.660
I think this is the 2nd most effective.

407
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.480
Well, because it doesn't feel like a fake out.

408
00:21:45.539 --> 00:21:49.319
For me, it was just, oh, shoot, he's been killed because that's

409
00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:50.279
just the natural process.

410
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:54.480
And it also kind of, it drops the kind of for the new audience, the

411
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.539
idea that the doctor can regenerate, which they do explain.

412
00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:58.740
So it's like, why is he glowing?

413
00:21:58.799 --> 00:21:59.700
That's why.

414
00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:00.299
Yeah.

415
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.539
And we need that for the final scene next week as well.

416
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:06.839
Like, we need people to know what that is for the final C next

417
00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:07.799
week. a really good point.

418
00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:11.819
Look, we'll get to the lie of the land one in a few years, but I

419
00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:15.240
think it is one of the most offensive things that the show has

420
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:15.839
ever done.

421
00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.299
Whereas I'm totally on board with the other two.

422
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.299
Oh, don't get me started on the stuff they did to Bill.

423
00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:24.059
I think it's so problematic.

424
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:25.559
God bless Pro Macky.

425
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:26.759
Yeah, whatever.

426
00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:30.720
I will be talking next week about how Stephen Moffat treats his

427
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.539
queer characters, but that's a discussion for next week.

428
00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:41.819
Coming back to this.

429
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.299
I think it's really engaging, and I really do like it, you know?

430
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:49.559
I had problems with the end of the season coming back to this.

431
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:51.779
Like, you know, they've got to try and match things up and I have

432
00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:52.440
a few issues there.

433
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.400
And of course, you know, the whole with the storyline and the fact

434
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.660
that spoiler without going into it, she's got to, you know, play a

435
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:03.180
certain role here, you know, and pretend that she doesn't know

436
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:03.660
what's going on.

437
00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:06.539
Does she do that though?

438
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.799
Because she actually, as the, I think I'm just going to put my

439
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.200
cards on the table, you're going to get spoilers for the season

440
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:18.720
arc, if you're listening, it happened 10 years ago, all right?

441
00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:19.740
Okay.

442
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:22.980
Darth Vader's Luke Skywalker's father by that's right.

443
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.279
That guy in disguise who just turned up at Ithaca's Odysseus

444
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:26.579
okay?

445
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:34.019
So, um, She she actually goes to shoot the astronaut.

446
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:35.579
So the astronaut comes out of a thing.

447
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:37.259
The doctor goes down to speak.

448
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.140
It's all happening in long shot and we only become really

449
00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:40.859
interested.

450
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.019
Like, that's how we see the shot.

451
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.119
It's Toby Haynes directing, isn't it?

452
00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:47.519
Which is, uh, and he did Christmas Carol?

453
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:48.059
Yep.

454
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:50.220
And he's really incredible.

455
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.460
I don't think we raved about him in our Christmas carol episode.

456
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.759
So I want to... cinematography is phenomenal.

457
00:23:56.819 --> 00:23:57.660
Unbelievable.

458
00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:59.099
Paul, 2 episode.

459
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.880
And so having that conversation happen a long shot until, you know

460
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:05.759
the astronaut shoots the doctor, I think, is a brilliant choice.

461
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.940
We're completely seeing it from everyone else's point of view.

462
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:13.559
River goes up and shoots the astronaut a couple of times and then

463
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.519
says, oh, yes, of course, right?

464
00:24:17.579 --> 00:24:21.660
So she makes it clear that she knows what's going on.

465
00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:26.519
It doesn't, still doesn't explain why she runs up and shoots the

466
00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:28.319
astronaut, mind you, but whatever.

467
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:33.000
But there are hints in the script, at least, that she knows more

468
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.819
about the astronaut than she's kind of letting on.

469
00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:39.660
Or she realises it that as she's shooting.

470
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:42.539
Yeah, maybe it's some other astronaut coming out of Lake

471
00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:43.259
Silencio.

472
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:47.579
That scene, though, is just it's so brilliant because it almost

473
00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:50.700
feels natural in a way because it's like you're just sitting at a

474
00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:53.880
picnic. wait, is that an is that an astronaut coming out of a

475
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:54.119
lake?

476
00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:54.900
What the hell is going on?

477
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.420
And the doctor's like, okay, I'll just go check it out.

478
00:24:57.480 --> 00:24:58.680
And they're like, what's he doing?

479
00:24:58.740 --> 00:24:59.640
Like, what's going?

480
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:00.420
Oh, my God.

481
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.079
Oh my god.

482
00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:03.119
And it's just like, it's really, that's, I think, why it's so

483
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.880
unnerving is because it's played so naturally.

484
00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:08.519
Like, it's if you, your friends were just chilling and something

485
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:09.779
weird happened in the distance.

486
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:13.019
Someone went to go check it out and then that, like, you know, like

487
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:15.720
that person in the astronauts too just killed your friends.

488
00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.099
You freaked out too.

489
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.720
Like, what is going on?

490
00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:21.240
so bizarre. terrifying.

491
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:26.099
And the school underneath that moment, until the doctor starts

492
00:25:26.099 --> 00:25:30.299
regenerating, is so, it's so low frequency and really quiet.

493
00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:33.900
And, you know, something that Marigold is sometimes criticised for

494
00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:38.519
is sort of the bombast and the emotional drive of the music.

495
00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:44.279
But here, it's just underscored slowly, almost subconsciously

496
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:47.279
building tension until you get to that moment.

497
00:25:47.339 --> 00:25:50.460
Plus, of course, we have a shot, which is a croup from Lagopolis

498
00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:54.779
for, you know, the, for those of us who were there, who were there

499
00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:55.680
in the 80s.

500
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:58.500
I was barely there in the 80s.

501
00:25:59.819 --> 00:26:04.559
When I 1st saw that shot, the 1st thing I think is Adrick looking

502
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:06.299
up at the doctor and the watcher on the bridge.

503
00:26:06.299 --> 00:26:07.200
And lookopolis.

504
00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:09.240
Oh, yeah.

505
00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:13.740
It does have that weird, like, that distance, something weird

506
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:15.359
eries going on.

507
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.720
Yeah, and the doctor goes to talk to the Yeah, I just remembering

508
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:18.839
that.

509
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:20.160
Because it's been a while since I've seen that episode.

510
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:21.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

511
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.299
And I think at the time, that led to a lot of speculation online

512
00:26:24.299 --> 00:26:27.119
of, is the doctor in the suit?

513
00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:32.099
Is this a hint from Stephen Moffat and Toby Haynes that it's the

514
00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:33.660
doctor in the suit?

515
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:35.759
It's pretty amazing, isn't it?

516
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:38.339
Because that's 2 mysteries that we're not going to get resolved

517
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:38.940
for a while.

518
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:44.220
How does the doctor get out of this and who is in the suit?

519
00:26:44.940 --> 00:26:49.140
If you're paying very close attention, you might conclude that

520
00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:54.059
it's river, because we already know, I think, from the Angels 2

521
00:26:54.059 --> 00:26:55.980
part of that river kills the doctor.

522
00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.539
You know, we know how Moffatt's mysteries work in some ways.

523
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:03.539
Often it's just the mystery is fun.

524
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.440
The tease is fun, but he doesn't tend to come up with a very

525
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:08.400
stupid answer.

526
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:10.440
You know, Missy's not the Rani.

527
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.400
She's the master.

528
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:13.980
You know.

529
00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:18.059
Yes, spoiler alert, river is the doctor's wife.

530
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.819
Like all of those mysteries are sort of super obvious.

531
00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:25.799
And we have the mystery set up in the Angels 2 part of it.

532
00:27:25.859 --> 00:27:28.740
The reason that Rivers in Stormcage is because she has killed

533
00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:33.480
someone, and that someone is a good man, and I think that we're

534
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.880
already on board with the idea that it's the doctor.

535
00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:41.640
So probably in the kind of heat of the moment, no one went, oh

536
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.539
that's river then, because because of what you said about the

537
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:48.000
scene, I think, Maxwell, you know, you're not sitting there sort

538
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.599
of analytically trying to sort of do the puzzle.

539
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:54.960
You're too busy kind of feeling viscerally what all these people

540
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:57.420
are going through because it's played so well.

541
00:27:57.539 --> 00:27:59.220
It is played so well.

542
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.400
I think Karen is absolutely extraordinary.

543
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:08.640
And for me to say that, coming off my previous comments about her

544
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:09.900
you know, is something.

545
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:13.559
But, um, you know, the whole burning of the body and the

546
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:17.640
beautifully filmed and that haunting music over the top of all of

547
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:17.819
that.

548
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:24.000
And also, the way he uses Rory, who sort of, you know, is a little

549
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.420
bit more detached from the doctor, who is the one that has to, you

550
00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:30.119
know, burn the body and do all that sort of stuff because Amy is

551
00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.299
incapable and of course, River has to look after her.

552
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.799
Like, it's just, um, I just think that whole sequence is actually

553
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:38.700
quite stunning.

554
00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:01.740
So, um, a man turns up in a pickup truck, and it's W.

555
00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:06.720
Morgan Shepherd, who is, uh, or rather was, he's no longer with us

556
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.400
an actor with very long pedigree, including science fiction, anyone

557
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.359
who hasn't seen his turn in Babylon 5, Soul Hunter, it's a

558
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:16.980
masterclass in something.

559
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:24.779
Um, But yeah, here he is playing, um, not exactly alongside his

560
00:29:24.779 --> 00:29:26.579
son who'll appear later in the episode.

561
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.259
Mark Shepard.

562
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.259
But the thing that astonished me when I was researching this is

563
00:29:31.259 --> 00:29:32.039
they're both English.

564
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:34.680
Really?

565
00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:39.480
Everything I've seen with them. has been with an American accent.

566
00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:41.640
And so I thought they were American.

567
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:46.019
I don't think there was a single American in any episode of the X

568
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:46.019
Files.

569
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.160
I'm just putting it out there.

570
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:50.039
I think it was all English people doing the accent.

571
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:53.339
It's absolutely astounding.

572
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.900
Wasn't Morgan Shepard, Mark Shepard's suggestion?

573
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:59.039
Yeah.

574
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.480
I think so.

575
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:04.319
They originally going to put prosthetics on him, which are used to

576
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.259
actually a really great effect with a different character, but no

577
00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:11.099
he suggested using his father as the older version of him.

578
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:12.720
It is a great American accent.

579
00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:15.539
I thought he was American because I actually didn't know who that

580
00:30:15.539 --> 00:30:16.200
was at first.

581
00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:18.900
And then I was like, oh, it's the voiceover guy from Civilisation

582
00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:19.140
5.

583
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.880
But like, I mean, Mark Shepard as well, just, you know, a titan of

584
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:28.380
sci-fi has been in Firefly.

585
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:29.759
He's been, I think, supernatural.

586
00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:32.339
He's been in almost everything and he does alternate between using

587
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:36.119
a British accent and an American accent from what I've heard. he's

588
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:36.539
great at both.

589
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:37.799
Yeah.

590
00:30:37.859 --> 00:30:41.220
And Morgan Shepard is there to deliver the kind of line of

591
00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:45.299
dialogue, which I think is a bit weird, and I'm not quite sure why

592
00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:49.920
it's there, which is the one where he says, no, it's not a clone.

593
00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:54.240
It's not a, you know, um, robot replica.

594
00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:56.400
It is a robot replica, spoilers.

595
00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:01.140
Um, you know, it's, it's the doctor, he's very definitely dead.

596
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.299
And I wonder what that's for.

597
00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:06.359
It's for the audience.

598
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:10.380
So when we're all, we're already sitting on the sofa going, um, you

599
00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:12.359
know, maybe it's a robot replica.

600
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:16.859
Maybe there's a gravity pocket at the bottom, maybe it's this

601
00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:18.720
maybe it's a hologram, maybe it's that.

602
00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:24.900
And this character actor who we've seen in Star Trek and Babylon 5

603
00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:28.079
and murder she wrote and all those sorts of things comes in and

604
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:29.819
says, no, no, no, definitely dead.

605
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.700
And it's to say to the audience, no, no, no, definitely dead.

606
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.519
But we know he's not definitely dead.

607
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:40.319
We as cynical adults are looking for the way out.

608
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.819
Oh, no, I don't think you need to be a cynical adult.

609
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:46.980
I think anyone a child watching it.

610
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.319
No frustrating.

611
00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:53.099
Because Moffatt knows how storytelling works.

612
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:57.660
You know, Moffat knows that what we are now waiting for is the

613
00:31:57.660 --> 00:32:00.059
kind of reinstatement of the doctor.

614
00:32:00.059 --> 00:32:03.059
And we get that, but we get it in sort of a slightly

615
00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:04.440
unsatisfactory way.

616
00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:07.980
We're now waiting for the rest of the season for the other shoe to

617
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:08.339
drop.

618
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.279
How does the doctor get out of it on Lake Silencio and we know

619
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:11.819
that he will.

620
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:15.779
We don't, we know that, you know, he's not going to say, all right

621
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:21.720
the rest of the show now takes place in the 195 years between, you

622
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:23.940
know, this doctor and the other doctor.

623
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.279
Like, we know that that's not going to be the solution.

624
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:28.859
So we know that he has to be getting out of it.

625
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:32.279
But it's also Stephen, knowing Doctor Who fans.

626
00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:35.400
And so by stating this, it's sort of like pushing us in a

627
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:36.779
different direction away from the obvious.

628
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.539
Yeah, I guess that's true.

629
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:40.259
I guess that's true.

630
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:40.920
Yeah.

631
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:46.259
And I think it's, it's all, it's also, in, in terms of Stephen

632
00:32:46.259 --> 00:32:50.460
Moffatt's scripts, most of the time when he's being sort of very

633
00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:56.160
clever and the reveal comes later, the reveal is almost like, well

634
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:00.240
I told you this already, it's just that I was drawing attention in

635
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.819
one place when I was telling you the solution in another place.

636
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:07.500
So, like who river is and in this case, Canton says, that is most

637
00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:08.339
definitely the doctor.

638
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:10.680
Yeah, because the doctors told him to say that and the doctor

639
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:11.279
lies.

640
00:33:11.339 --> 00:33:13.019
I keep telling you this.

641
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:14.160
You know?

642
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:17.700
And so you do feel clever when you figure it out.

643
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:21.119
And if you don't figure it out, you're then able to look back over

644
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:22.920
the clues and go, oh, right.

645
00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:24.119
Yeah, I get that.

646
00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:29.519
And as such, it's a very cleverly put together mystery because it

647
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.000
invites you, like an Agatha Christie to kind of go, okay, what do

648
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:33.960
I think of the evidence?

649
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.700
And, you know, they've got the scene where David Souche says, okay

650
00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:40.140
Hastings, gather everyone together.

651
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:43.740
We've been watching a lot of Poirot here at home and usually Rod

652
00:33:43.740 --> 00:33:45.359
will then pause it and turn to me and say, right, what do you

653
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:45.539
think?

654
00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:49.079
Because Rod's read the books and seen these before.

655
00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:53.339
What a partner thing to tell.

656
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.220
That's like me and Sean watching Doctor.

657
00:33:57.059 --> 00:33:59.160
So what he thinks going to happen?

658
00:33:59.220 --> 00:34:01.980
But the thing is, it's really satisfying when you get it right.

659
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:03.420
Or even when you get it half right.

660
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:06.599
Because a lot of the time, I'll either get the murderer or the

661
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.519
motive right, but rarely both together.

662
00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:14.219
I should also mention that the astronaut came out as an action

663
00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:20.460
figure in 2 different types, and you didn't know which type you

664
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:22.440
got until you bought it because the visor was down.

665
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:24.960
So in one of them, you had the little girl.

666
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:31.800
And in the other one, spoiler alert, you had Alex Kingston. hate

667
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:32.099
that.

668
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:34.019
That's so weird.

669
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.679
Did you buy like 12 of them until you got one of each?

670
00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:39.719
I only got the little girl.

671
00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:41.039
I've only got the girl.

672
00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:44.219
And I do have an Alex Kingston from science in the library.

673
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.400
I need to get another Alex Kingston from the Pandora Opens, and

674
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:49.440
then I need to get a 2nd one because I've actually figured out.

675
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.260
Oh, I'm really sorry for this deal this night.

676
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.199
I have actually figured out I got a spare pirate planet Romana

677
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:59.880
which if I repaint it, can look like the denim river song from

678
00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:03.719
this episode, so I need a spare river song, head, to one, to

679
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:10.559
transplant onto, um, Did you just have a realisation of how

680
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:12.239
absolutely insane.

681
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:13.920
That sounded midway through your sentence.

682
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:14.940
Yeah.

683
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:17.940
It was like I was looking, I need a reverse song called.

684
00:35:17.940 --> 00:35:21.420
And then you look down like, oh, oh, this is what I've become.

685
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:24.780
Okay, Asio, if you just listen to 5 seconds of the podcast, listen

686
00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:25.380
to that bit.

687
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:30.719
Oh, baby, we got the FBI and AC on this because of my ass.

688
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.400
There is so much happening in this episode because then we go to

689
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.039
the cafe, which we're going to revisit at some point in the

690
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:38.639
future.

691
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.659
The most American Welsh diner that's ever...

692
00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:45.780
Would you like to talk more about?

693
00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:50.880
It's, well, it's just so interesting because like, you know, coming

694
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.000
from America, everything is just a facimile of other people's

695
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:57.000
cultures, like, let's go to a Chinese restaurant that has like

696
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.659
dragons on the wall and like jade and it's like, oh, this is like

697
00:36:00.659 --> 00:36:02.760
a hyper real version of China, which it isn't.

698
00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:07.440
And so to see that, my quote unquote culture represented.

699
00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:10.440
It's like, oh, there's your Elvis on the wall, there's your guns

700
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:12.059
there's your Marilyn Monroe.

701
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:15.659
There's your kind of old timey jukebox. like, this is, like, it's

702
00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:16.260
it's creepy.

703
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:20.280
It's like, if I was like put in some sort of like space odyssey

704
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.360
2001, that ending where he's in that weird mansion created by the

705
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:29.280
um, the aliens, that for Americans. into a diner and they're like

706
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:29.880
hello?

707
00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:31.800
That's what it felt like.

708
00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:34.920
It was just like, oh, this is like, they really trying to drive

709
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:36.599
the point home that this is the US.

710
00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:39.719
Although probably Cardiff at this point.

711
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.900
I won't, they can't have.

712
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:48.659
But here, you know, again, uh, River is again saying, who does the

713
00:36:48.659 --> 00:36:49.739
doctor trust the most?

714
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:54.659
and and then the doctor walks in, the younger version, you're

715
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:55.739
going, what's going on?

716
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.619
We're setting up the fact that he is like 200 years younger.

717
00:36:58.619 --> 00:37:03.719
And then, of course, we get what we need in virtually every tenure

718
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:05.760
of the doctor is is a slap in the face.

719
00:37:06.539 --> 00:37:12.780
It's fantastically great how angry Alex Kingston is.

720
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.639
And also how much she expects him to pull this sort of crap.

721
00:37:17.699 --> 00:37:19.679
Like, she's not surprised that he's done it.

722
00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:24.360
She thinks it's worse than he usually does, but sort of, you know

723
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:26.340
this is cold even for you.

724
00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:30.420
This is the sort of thing that you do, but this is even worse than

725
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:31.079
sort of anything.

726
00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:35.820
And we are going to spend this season talking about how Moffatt

727
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:38.159
mistreats the regulars.

728
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:43.800
But what the doctor puts Amy through. in that in that scene on the

729
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:50.340
beach is just incredible, just so kind of upsetting and terrible.

730
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.639
Perhaps perhaps Amy's performance is too good.

731
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:55.199
It makes it too upsetting.

732
00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:58.920
Yeah, I've, I've long, I've long sort of said, like, I have

733
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:03.239
problems with Amy as a character, but that's how I know that Karen

734
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.599
Gillon is such a good actress because I love Karen Gillon.

735
00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:10.079
You know, and I have a bit of a problem with Amy.

736
00:38:10.139 --> 00:38:14.579
It's like, well, if I like you as a person as much as I've seen of

737
00:38:14.579 --> 00:38:19.380
you, um, but, oh, there's, there's parts about your character, I

738
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:21.780
don't like, you, you know, you must be playing that character well

739
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:22.800
sort of thing.

740
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:28.199
Um, incidentally, and look, this could be announced by the time we

741
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:29.159
release this podcast.

742
00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:33.659
There are rumours, dear listener, that Karen Gillen will play Mara

743
00:38:33.659 --> 00:38:35.400
Jade in the Star Wars universe.

744
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:38.039
But that could be.

745
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:39.719
I thought you were going to say the 14th doctor.

746
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:43.500
No, no, that's Jennifer Saunders.

747
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.460
But no, there are rumours, but also I think those rumours might be

748
00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:52.079
because people in fan circles can't think of another red-haired

749
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:53.219
actress who can fight.

750
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.519
So take that with a grain of salt.

751
00:38:56.579 --> 00:38:56.940
Wow.

752
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:58.679
Bonnie Langston.

753
00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:05.880
Do we think that's just a different incoronation of river?

754
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:08.820
I thought about that.

755
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:11.519
Oh my god, that is that's cannon.

756
00:39:11.579 --> 00:39:13.320
And when Psycho down that rabbit hole.

757
00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:16.619
When the Rani dresses up as Mel, what does she do?

758
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.500
She slaps the doctor. in character.

759
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:21.360
Not a coincidence.

760
00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:24.719
Can I just say I love Karen or Amy's hair?

761
00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:26.880
in this episode.

762
00:39:26.940 --> 00:39:29.940
I'm all about the hair people, but you know, I really think this

763
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:33.000
helps her out this season is her, the way she starts.

764
00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:33.719
Yeah.

765
00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:35.159
It's so important.

766
00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.440
This whole episode. discussion.

767
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:39.539
Absolutely beautiful.

768
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:44.099
Yeah, and, you know, foreshadowing sort of later this season when

769
00:39:44.099 --> 00:39:48.239
it's revealed that Amy has a modelling career, when she's on earth

770
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.920
it's totally believable and in keeping with the character and sort

771
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.360
of a powerful thing to do with Amy as a character because, you

772
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:00.780
know, we've had, we've had Donna and we've had Martha and we've

773
00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:05.639
had Rose all with different sort of ideals, but, you know, looking

774
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:07.320
out beyond where they are.

775
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:09.900
Whereas Amy's like, no, no, I'm going to be a model and I'm going

776
00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:11.760
to make a success of this and I'm going to have fun with it and

777
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:12.539
I'm going to be fabulous.

778
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:14.579
And she is.

779
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:15.300
And cheers.

780
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:17.519
She trusts the doctor.

781
00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:22.079
Because this is a conversation they have as they go in the TARDIS

782
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:23.880
which is sort of the next little bit of sequence.

783
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:25.500
Yeah.

784
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:33.420
And again, you know, we have a scene that reinforces and explains

785
00:40:33.420 --> 00:40:34.619
the mystery.

786
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.460
We're supposed to be wondering what happened to the doctor.

787
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:40.800
And so we have that incredible scene where they're sort of

788
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:44.159
conspiring under the, you know, in the sort of area under the

789
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:47.699
console, which is one of my favourite parts of that set.

790
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:52.199
And one of the best things about that particular set, is that sort

791
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:54.119
of whole area under the glass floor.

792
00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:56.760
And, you know, the doctor's sort of annoyed because no one's

793
00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.400
admiring him when he sort of sticks his head down to complain.

794
00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:03.059
But we get all of that stuff, all of that stuff about the

795
00:41:03.059 --> 00:41:06.480
different characters' attitudes to the doctor, but it's also there

796
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:12.480
I think, just to reinforce the kind of mystery and the dilemma and

797
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:16.679
the fact that all of them have to keep this huge secret from the

798
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:16.980
doctor.

799
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.340
It's interesting because, of course, River, again, is reinforcing

800
00:41:20.340 --> 00:41:23.940
you know, um, that the doctor's death doesn't frighten me or

801
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:24.599
mine.

802
00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:27.659
There is a far worse day coming to me, you know, all that dialogue

803
00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:27.960
there.

804
00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:32.340
You can see, um, obviously, the differences in Rory's and Amy's

805
00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:33.000
reactions to that.

806
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:36.960
I do find it, well, the fact that the doctor can't hear what's

807
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:37.980
going on in underneath.

808
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.679
Surely he should be this suspicious and be like at the door trying

809
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:43.019
to find like on the floor trying to find out what's going on.

810
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:47.579
I mean, you know, it's just been me, but yeah, it's very classic

811
00:41:47.579 --> 00:41:48.300
series.

812
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:49.920
I heard them over talking.

813
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.039
Except when you're not allowed to.

814
00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:57.179
It's the Dalek who comes around the corner looking straight at you

815
00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:59.219
and very quickly writes its eye stalk.

816
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:06.239
The thing that bothered me about that scene was, at one point, the

817
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.219
doctor's like, okay, so what's going on?

818
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:13.139
You've gotten this letter saying something about 1969 in space.

819
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:16.860
Um, and he's like, okay, so this is where this is where what we

820
00:42:16.860 --> 00:42:17.159
would do.

821
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:17.820
We would do this.

822
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:20.400
We would do this. you know, we would pinpoint that it's 1969.

823
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:21.719
And now we're going to go somewhere else.

824
00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:23.400
And they're like, wait, what are you talking about?

825
00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:25.079
Why aren't we going to go investigate the thing?

826
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:26.400
You love investigating the thing.

827
00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:30.059
And he goes, a mysterious summons from someone we don't know.

828
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:31.860
Do you really think I'm just going to walk into that?

829
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:36.599
And I'm sitting there watching this going, that's not true, Ellen.

830
00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:38.099
You absolutely would.

831
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:39.480
You do it all the time.

832
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:42.059
So why not now?

833
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:45.840
And like, what is the reluctance to Chen, come on.

834
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:49.320
But the reluctance really is that he knows that they're keeping a

835
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:49.920
secret from him.

836
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:53.519
He doesn't trust them and he is just going to take them all home.

837
00:42:53.579 --> 00:42:59.820
And the way Matt plays that. is so incredibly great because it

838
00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:03.659
starts with him doing his usual sort of bubbly thing.

839
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:06.960
You know, you go home, make babies, you know, I'm taking you to

840
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:07.440
prison.

841
00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:12.360
I've got a hilarious biplane knitting lesson that I need to go

842
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:12.719
to.

843
00:43:12.780 --> 00:43:14.340
Like, he's being funny.

844
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:19.139
And he just becomes so incredibly menacing.

845
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:23.519
Like he is so cold and hostile to them without overplaying it in

846
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:23.940
any way.

847
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:26.460
And it's the that thing that he does.

848
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:31.440
He's so mercurial, but also, and I've said this, you know, all

849
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:32.400
throughout the last season.

850
00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:38.219
Just the way that he plays menace is so low key and so much more

851
00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:39.119
menacing.

852
00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:43.739
So I really like that because I think, actually, Maxwell, that do

853
00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:46.619
you think I would respond to a mysterious signal and just walk

854
00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:49.920
into things and then he's, then he kind of implies no.

855
00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:51.659
I think that wrong foots us.

856
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:54.360
I think we're going, yeah, actually, like, I think that's quite

857
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:56.579
deliberate because of course he does that.

858
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:58.619
And a 2nd later he does do it.

859
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:03.840
Like once Amy reassures him that she's trustworthy.

860
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:06.119
He's straight to the mysterious summons.

861
00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:06.900
Of course he is.

862
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:11.099
But he stops just to make it clear to them that he absolutely

863
00:44:11.099 --> 00:44:15.000
knows that they're hiding something important from him and that

864
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.579
he's not willing to put up with it.

865
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:21.719
Yeah, I think that whole thing of hiding something is what makes

866
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:24.480
the difference because usually when he goes blundering into a

867
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:27.900
situation like this, He has absolute confidence in the people

868
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:28.860
around him.

869
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:34.679
But in this instance, I feel like he almost plays it with an air

870
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:36.539
of betrayal.

871
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:43.800
Not necessarily... that he thinks they are leading him into a trap

872
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:48.239
but it's kind of like he has just rebooted the universe, saved

873
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:49.440
Rory and Amy's marriage.

874
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:52.199
He's constantly breaking river out of prison to take her to

875
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:52.679
parties.

876
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:55.920
And he's like, and I'm sorry, this is how you treat me.

877
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.099
You know, that's the air.

878
00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:04.500
It's it's disappointment and hurt is what I kind of get from like

879
00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:07.559
when he flops down into the chair and puts a hand to his temple.

880
00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:14.340
And then and then it's the disappointment of having to explain why

881
00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:16.019
he feels why he feels that way.

882
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:21.420
And as you say, it's so menacing and I actually well up a bit when

883
00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:25.800
Amy says fish fingers and custard because we also know that that's

884
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:30.539
a slightly painful memory for Amy because even though that's the

885
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:32.820
day her life changed forever and it was the most wonderful day of

886
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:39.000
her life, it also led to 14 years of believing she was insane.

887
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:40.559
And everyone...

888
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:42.780
No, sorry, she didn't believe she was insane, but everyone around

889
00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:43.199
her did.

890
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:47.760
And, you know, the doctor acknowledges waiter this season that he

891
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.320
kind of screwed up her life.

892
00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:54.000
But he also, I mean, that's the day that he doesn't come.

893
00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:55.679
Although I guess he's fixed that.

894
00:45:55.739 --> 00:45:58.139
He does turn up that day and put it to bed and stuff like that.

895
00:45:58.199 --> 00:45:59.940
So maybe that didn't happen.

896
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.019
Who can tell?

897
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:02.699
series 5 is very complicated.

898
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:16.079
There is somewhere where he does go, and he does arrive, and

899
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:17.699
that's in the Oval Office, you know?

900
00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:22.920
I mean, it's very brave of them to decide to actually involve US

901
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:27.239
president and having to cast somebody to look like that and behave

902
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:30.659
like President Nixon, you know, and to try and get that

903
00:46:30.659 --> 00:46:33.480
performance credible enough for us to believe.

904
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.159
Don't you think?

905
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:36.659
And he kills it.

906
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:38.760
So Maxwell, who does it better?

907
00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:40.800
Doctor Who or Futurama?

908
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:43.920
I actually have to give it to Doctor Who.

909
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:47.219
And what's so interesting is I looked up that actor whose last

910
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:48.420
name is Milligan, I believe.

911
00:46:48.539 --> 00:46:49.199
Stuart Milligan?

912
00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:49.440
Yes.

913
00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:53.519
He, who I didn't realise was also the president in Wonder Woman

914
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:55.380
1984 as Reagan.

915
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:58.320
And apparently he's just, apparently that's his thing.

916
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:01.019
He played Eisenhower.

917
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:04.380
Like that's his thing. the go-to guy to be any president.

918
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:05.820
He's like a shapeshifter.

919
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:09.780
It could be any kind of weird, lopsided, southern accent, mediocre

920
00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:10.320
white guy.

921
00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:12.719
Probably couldn't do a convincing Obama, and let's not see him

922
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:13.139
die.

923
00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:15.360
That's his role.

924
00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:16.980
And, you know, they put prosthetics on him.

925
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:21.900
And he killed it, and it was really unsettling, kind of how much

926
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:23.579
he how Nixon-esque he was.

927
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:29.519
But, um, you know, what I love about the setting of 1969 is just

928
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:33.960
how much it, like, I think for a British person watching this

929
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:36.780
unless they have a really good grasp on American history, which

930
00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:41.159
they might, the metaphors, the symbolism, everything in this

931
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:46.320
episode is so evocative of the mood, the tone, and the aesthetics

932
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:47.880
of 1969.

933
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:54.360
Um, So, just to kind of, geez, a point of reference, 1969

934
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:57.900
thematically is very reflective of sort of how America looks

935
00:47:57.900 --> 00:47:58.320
today.

936
00:47:58.380 --> 00:48:01.500
It was a time of incredible social upheaval.

937
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:06.000
It was really, you know, I think it's been sugar coated where we

938
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.079
think, oh, it's the hippies.

939
00:48:07.139 --> 00:48:09.179
It's this. civil rights movement, which of course, that's all

940
00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:09.420
there.

941
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:11.579
But no one was having a good time.

942
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:12.719
Like, it was really terrible.

943
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:16.500
I mean, like there was assassinations of major political leaders

944
00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:17.340
like every other week.

945
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.920
And I don't think the rest of the world often when they think

946
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:24.480
about America in the 60s sees how just terrible that time was.

947
00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:29.219
And, um, it's really, with a whole FBI being in the background.

948
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:32.280
This is a point in history where we just had the red scare.

949
00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:33.420
So we had McCarthyism.

950
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:36.360
We had sort of you know, sort of monitoring our own civilians.

951
00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:39.239
And this is also the point in history where I think a lot of

952
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:42.300
Americans, especially the younger generation, of course, all

953
00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:44.579
became boomers who are, you know, destroying everything.

954
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:48.179
Um, they kind of woke up and said, you know what, something's not

955
00:48:48.179 --> 00:48:48.539
right here.

956
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.059
And this was the 1st time you sort of had dissent in America

957
00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:55.320
against America and the response to that was as you could expect

958
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:57.059
the FBI to just go even harder.

959
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.239
And so that's why they kind of are this looming presence in the

960
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:00.780
background.

961
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:04.079
And while the silence themselves kind of have that men in black

962
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:09.420
FBI suit to them, because this is a period of you're being

963
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:09.960
watched.

964
00:49:10.019 --> 00:49:13.019
There is a conspiracy behind your back.

965
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:16.860
I mean, and even Nixon is, says, I don't trust the FBI.

966
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.039
And I think that kind of goes to show how much at this point in

967
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:20.760
history.

968
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:25.260
We had sort of lost the plot and how this was a time of paranoia.

969
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:29.159
And, you know, the other stuff, the other thing that's looming in

970
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:31.380
the background of all this as well is this was the time period

971
00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:35.639
where UFOs and aliens in Roswell were a big part of the American

972
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:38.280
pop cultural identity, like B movies.

973
00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:42.599
And the silence themselves are very evocative of a gray alien.

974
00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:44.940
I know they're supposed to be based off of Edvard Milk's The

975
00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:48.840
Scream, but they look very much like those Roswell aliens that

976
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:51.659
just kind of show up and put the whammy on you and take you aboard

977
00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:52.320
their spaceship.

978
00:49:52.380 --> 00:49:56.039
And they have also that men in black luck of these like weird

979
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:59.699
mysterious, you know, maybe they're aliens, maybe they're humans

980
00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:00.300
they show up.

981
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:03.000
They erase their memory and then they leave.

982
00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:06.000
And that's all there in the symbolism there.

983
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:12.480
And um, I was really interested by how nuanced Nixon was in this.

984
00:50:12.539 --> 00:50:15.539
Because when you look at history and you look at the start of his

985
00:50:15.539 --> 00:50:18.539
term, he's only, I think, 7 months, 6 months in office at this

986
00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:22.980
point, it's been less than a year, and he, and when Nixon came in

987
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:26.760
he did very much have that kind of peacemaker attitude where he's

988
00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:30.059
like, look, we are in an intense period of American history.

989
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:31.800
I know there's a conservative thing happening.

990
00:50:31.860 --> 00:50:33.059
There's a liberal thing happening.

991
00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:36.179
I'm here to kind of unite everyone and I want to put my best foot

992
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:36.659
forward.

993
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:38.519
We're going to, you know, we're going to go to the moon.

994
00:50:38.579 --> 00:50:39.360
It's going to be great.

995
00:50:39.420 --> 00:50:40.679
This is going to be the new America.

996
00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:44.099
And it's so interesting to see how that's really reflective in a

997
00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:48.119
character who, looking back, is not a slime ball at all, really, in

998
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:50.760
this whole, 2 over the dead, of course, the next few episodes, he's

999
00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:53.519
actually quite benevolent, and he's a little bit of a grouch. a

1000
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:58.980
little bit, you know, doddering, but he helps them every step of

1001
00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:00.000
the way for the most part.

1002
00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:03.780
And that when you look back in history, Nixon, you know, at the

1003
00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:06.239
start of things kind of was, you know, kind of that good guy.

1004
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.059
And then, of course, how much he fell and became this really

1005
00:51:09.059 --> 00:51:11.039
odious, like, proto Trump figure.

1006
00:51:11.099 --> 00:51:14.940
It's, you know, terrifying, but it's interesting how they captured

1007
00:51:14.940 --> 00:51:18.179
Nixon at that time in history as he would have been perceived as

1008
00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:22.199
more of a benevolent figure with the shades of paranoia that would

1009
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.980
eventually lead him down the track to being terrible and

1010
00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:28.079
overstepping every bound.

1011
00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:33.480
The conversation that the doctor and river have about Nixon in the

1012
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:35.099
TARDIS, I think, is really great.

1013
00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:37.980
And one of the reasons it's great is in the context of last year

1014
00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:42.960
where we had cuddly Winston Churchill, which, you know, I thought

1015
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:46.619
was a massive problem with victory of the Daleks.

1016
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.460
I thought that whitewashing Churchill was a very bad thing.

1017
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:54.780
We do whitewash Jefferson slightly in this episode, I have to

1018
00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:55.019
say.

1019
00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:58.679
The doctor describes him as a sort of splendid chap or something

1020
00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:00.719
like that, which is a bit upsetting.

1021
00:52:00.780 --> 00:52:04.980
But I quite like the argument that River and the doctor have, where

1022
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:11.219
River has this sort of nuanced take on what Nixon is like, and the

1023
00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:14.880
doctor gets grumpy with her for it, and she accuses him of being a

1024
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:18.179
hippie and he accuses her of being an archeologist.

1025
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.699
And I think that that gets it.

1026
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:24.900
The thing about Nixon is he's so he is kind of genial, isn't he?

1027
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.840
And he really, next episode when he interacts with those

1028
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:28.440
scientists.

1029
00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:30.300
He's actually really very charming.

1030
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:34.079
Which was kind of part of his tactic in many ways.

1031
00:52:34.139 --> 00:52:36.300
I think he was a little bit of a flatterer.

1032
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.519
I think that's kind of how he got what he wanted.

1033
00:52:38.579 --> 00:52:41.699
And, you know, it's what's so interesting is like how much of that

1034
00:52:41.699 --> 00:52:42.420
was authentic.

1035
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:44.880
Like he was just that kind of person and how much was him just

1036
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.659
sort of, you know, kissing, kissing people on the cheek in one

1037
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:51.300
moment and then going behind their back and trying to have them

1038
00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:53.280
secretly arrested or wiretapped in the other.

1039
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:59.340
Like, I don't have a high opinion as someone who is an American

1040
00:52:59.340 --> 00:53:02.460
citizen trying to be an Australian citizen trying to be both.

1041
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:04.679
Um, I don't really have a high opinion of Nixon.

1042
00:53:04.739 --> 00:53:05.940
I find him to be incredibly evil.

1043
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.000
I thought he was sort of set the ground for all the stuff that

1044
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:09.840
Trump got away with.

1045
00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:11.460
I think he is the proto Trump.

1046
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:17.400
But I do see where, I think a lot of, a lot of that evil was

1047
00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:21.239
acquired with power, whereas I think with Trump, it was just

1048
00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:21.659
always there.

1049
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.900
I think maybe Nixon probably not a great guy to begin with, but at

1050
00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:26.579
least trying to do the right thing.

1051
00:53:26.699 --> 00:53:30.480
And then, of course, the paranoia just completely took over.

1052
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.980
He was always afraid of losing power.

1053
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:33.659
He wiretapped everyone.

1054
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:35.400
He did all these illegal shady things.

1055
00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:38.820
Well, what's interesting is that he doesn't do that at first.

1056
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:42.480
And I wonder if maybe that the whole idea of these crazy events

1057
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:47.280
happening, the silence, all this creepy sci-fi stuff, that's in

1058
00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:51.360
universe, the explanation for why Nixon goes down that path

1059
00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:54.599
because he's just had this crazy experience where he now feels

1060
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.480
like he has to be monitoring everything because the silence are

1061
00:53:57.480 --> 00:53:57.840
always watching.

1062
00:53:57.900 --> 00:53:59.400
It's a tipping point for him.

1063
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:03.960
Yeah, and it takes place in 1969, so we never get the, um, the

1064
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:08.039
infamous 18.5 minutes, the missing 18.5 from the Watergate tapes.

1065
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:11.639
That's always like a big mystery of like what was on those tapes.

1066
00:54:11.699 --> 00:54:14.039
I wish they had talked about that more, but there was no way they

1067
00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:17.159
could have fit that in there because it was, you know, that's, I

1068
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:19.079
think, 5 years after this takes place.

1069
00:54:19.139 --> 00:54:23.159
And in a way, had they included that, that's what the story would

1070
00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:23.699
have been about.

1071
00:54:23.820 --> 00:54:24.840
Oh, absolutely.

1072
00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:26.940
The silence being on those tapes.

1073
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:27.420
Yeah.

1074
00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:31.320
Whereas Stephen Moffatt's starting point for this was he came up

1075
00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:35.880
with the idea of the silent because he thought, okay, I want a

1076
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:39.780
monster that explains why you hear your floorboards creak at

1077
00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:40.019
night.

1078
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:41.400
That was his starting point.

1079
00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:45.420
So Stephen Moffatt says the reason the story is set in America is

1080
00:54:45.420 --> 00:54:48.059
he thought, we haven't been to America.

1081
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:49.079
Let's see if we can do this.

1082
00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:50.940
So it's sort of the city of death thing.

1083
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:51.780
We haven't been to Paris.

1084
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:53.400
Let's see if we can do a story in Paris.

1085
00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:57.239
However, according to Piers Wenger, the other executive producer

1086
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:01.559
it was exactly because the show had been such a success in America

1087
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:03.000
over series 4 and 5.

1088
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:06.300
And so let's keep that momentum going.

1089
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:08.880
And the great thing is, Doctor of the Complete History puts that

1090
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:11.099
quote by Stephen Moffatt saying, oh no, we're not trying to court

1091
00:55:11.099 --> 00:55:11.579
America.

1092
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:13.019
It's just that we haven't been there before.

1093
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:15.360
Straight away, you've got Piers Wunga saying, yes, of course we're

1094
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:16.079
trying to court America.

1095
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:17.039
Yeah, isn't that wonderful?

1096
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:20.519
But after Moffat came up with that, he's like, okay, well, if

1097
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:22.800
we're going to America, let's make it about the space race.

1098
00:55:22.860 --> 00:55:24.119
Let's make it about landing on the moon.

1099
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:24.900
Yeah, this is great.

1100
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:26.579
Let's see who the president was then.

1101
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.079
Oh my god, it's Nixon.

1102
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:29.760
I have to include Nixon.

1103
00:55:29.820 --> 00:55:31.980
And that was his kind of thought.

1104
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:35.219
And then it was just this serendipity, according to Moffatt, of

1105
00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:40.260
Nixon is obsessed with secrecy and recording people and he does

1106
00:55:40.260 --> 00:55:41.820
refer to the missing 18 minutes.

1107
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:46.019
So he was he was aware of that, but as you say, Max can't really

1108
00:55:46.019 --> 00:55:48.659
include it in the story unless it's like a coder at the end.

1109
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:53.099
So he sort of hints at it with some of the things the doctor says

1110
00:55:53.099 --> 00:55:53.880
to Nixon.

1111
00:55:54.420 --> 00:56:01.380
And yeah, it's just one of these things where Moffatt comes up

1112
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:04.260
with a very intricate idea, but then realises that other stuff

1113
00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:09.059
that can link into it and he brings that in, which sort of, I

1114
00:56:09.059 --> 00:56:12.360
think Moffatt is a little more spontaneous than some people give

1115
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:13.079
him credit for.

1116
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:16.079
Like people think he constructs these intricate puzzle boxes, so

1117
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:20.099
everything's planned from go to woe and, you know, there's no room

1118
00:56:20.099 --> 00:56:21.300
for any improvisation.

1119
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:24.119
It's like you read him talking about his writing and he absolutely

1120
00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:28.800
will be writing a script and then decide, actually, what do I want

1121
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:29.699
to have happen in this moment?

1122
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:31.260
I want to have this character.

1123
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:33.900
We'll find out if the actor is available later.

1124
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:36.780
And there, it's kind of weird.

1125
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:40.079
This story does give us that air of planning, but also an air of

1126
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:45.239
spontaneity, you know, in things like, um, He could have landed

1127
00:56:45.239 --> 00:56:47.760
the TARDIS down the corridor, but instead he's like, I got to land

1128
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:48.659
it in the Oval Office.

1129
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:51.659
Oh, but if I landed in the Oval Office, a bunch of men will run in

1130
00:56:51.659 --> 00:56:53.940
with guns, how do I delay that by a minute?

1131
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:55.380
Oh, the TARDIS can turn invisible.

1132
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.960
Yeah, did that back in Patrick Trout and we can give it some

1133
00:56:57.960 --> 00:56:58.679
justification.

1134
00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:01.559
And you get that great bit where every setting the doctor makes

1135
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:04.440
River just, no, no, it's like this.

1136
00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:05.699
Are you touching something?

1137
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:07.320
No, no, absolutely not.

1138
00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:09.659
It's a very Romana thing to do.

1139
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:10.440
Yes.

1140
00:57:10.619 --> 00:57:14.940
Except Romana would tell him, no, this.

1141
00:57:15.300 --> 00:57:19.920
I actually think that that scene is unbelievably brilliantly

1142
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:20.579
funny.

1143
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:24.599
Like from the moment that they kind of land invisibly and and she

1144
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:28.860
does all of that sort of stuff to the incredible kind of discovery

1145
00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:35.519
of Matt standing in the Oval Office taking notes and and then just

1146
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:38.219
sort of, yeah, waving his hand to say, you know, no, no, you just

1147
00:57:38.219 --> 00:57:39.360
keep going, don't mind me.

1148
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:44.880
And then him slamming into the tartars and fork.

1149
00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:48.119
You know, and you know, then, you know, the legs, the nose, Mrs

1150
00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:48.840
Robinson.

1151
00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:51.780
Oh, I hate you so much.

1152
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:56.940
And the fact too, that the doctor knows that River's doing it.

1153
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:02.159
Like he actually says, have you got the scanner working after he's

1154
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:04.800
declared that it doesn't work when we're invisible.

1155
00:58:04.860 --> 00:58:05.820
He knows that.

1156
00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:10.260
And when she says in the Tartars, I hate you, he knows that she

1157
00:58:10.260 --> 00:58:12.360
said that because he says, no, you don't.

1158
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:13.739
It's so good.

1159
00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:15.659
Mrs. Robinson.

1160
00:58:15.659 --> 00:58:17.159
Chemistry.

1161
00:58:17.219 --> 00:58:17.940
So good.

1162
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:19.619
Yeah, it's it's so funny.

1163
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:26.039
Like, Stephen has the knack of just being able to put um, humourous

1164
00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:30.840
spin on a serious situation, like that, um, The doctor, you know

1165
00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:37.500
could be shot by in the Oval Office and, uh, It's interesting.

1166
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:43.079
I don't, I, it always sits uneasy with me in terms of when you

1167
00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:47.760
start to involve historical figures that you kind of know, like

1168
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:49.019
more recent.

1169
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:51.360
Like, I actually like Doctor Who avoiding that a lot of the time

1170
00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:55.380
rather than actually um, having something like Nixon.

1171
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:59.039
Because I think you run the risk of falling flat.

1172
00:58:59.099 --> 00:59:02.940
So at the time, I was very much like, oh, is this a good idea?

1173
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:06.360
But I think it's watching it this time through.

1174
00:59:06.420 --> 00:59:07.980
I really, really thoroughly enjoyed.

1175
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:10.380
The performance of Nixon and what they're doing and what you've

1176
00:59:10.380 --> 00:59:11.940
said maximum as well.

1177
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:16.500
Um, but everything's intercut with humour, and um, and then, of

1178
00:59:16.500 --> 00:59:20.699
course, when we get that poor woman, Joy, who gets exploded in the

1179
00:59:20.699 --> 00:59:24.000
in the bathroom, like with her Star Trek alien and all of that.

1180
00:59:24.059 --> 00:59:26.880
But, um, I love that.

1181
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:29.219
It's such such secretary energy from Droy.

1182
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:29.880
I love that.

1183
00:59:30.539 --> 00:59:32.400
I love her performance.

1184
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:35.099
I just, you know, and the fact that Amy's clever enough to record

1185
00:59:35.099 --> 00:59:36.239
things as well on the phone.

1186
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:40.500
And but I'm so sad that, you know, she got exploded.

1187
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:48.360
That scene was what cemented the silence for me because of a very

1188
00:59:48.360 --> 00:59:50.940
particular real life moment that happened when I was watching that

1189
00:59:50.940 --> 00:59:51.360
scene.

1190
00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:52.980
So just to set the setting.

1191
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:54.900
It was the end of term.

1192
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:56.460
I was, I think I was my partner.

1193
00:59:56.519 --> 01:00:00.119
I might have been by myself, and I was, just for reasons I won't

1194
01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:03.900
bore you with, I was off campus in kind of an annex, um, dorm room

1195
01:00:03.900 --> 01:00:07.980
that was a cottage in Amherst, Massachusetts, and most of the

1196
01:00:07.980 --> 01:00:09.480
people had gone home for semester.

1197
01:00:09.539 --> 01:00:13.739
So I was in this old creaky house, literally next to Emily

1198
01:00:13.739 --> 01:00:14.940
Dickinson's homestead.

1199
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.320
I kid you not And I was watching this and I think there was either

1200
01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:22.079
a storm or there was something going on with my laptop where the

1201
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:24.659
battery wasn't working where I'd forgot to plug it in.

1202
01:00:24.719 --> 01:00:25.500
It was one of those things.

1203
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:27.539
But we were watching, I was watching this.

1204
01:00:27.539 --> 01:00:32.760
And the moment where the silence bugs out and it has that creepy

1205
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:34.079
mouth. almost like an anus.

1206
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:34.980
It's really upsetting.

1207
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:40.440
Um, and it like shoots the lightning out in the peak of that, my

1208
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:41.039
power went off.

1209
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:43.500
And I was in the dark.

1210
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:46.619
And I was just like, ha.

1211
01:00:46.679 --> 01:00:50.400
So that's why I remembered this episode very clearly because that

1212
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:51.960
was not a fun time for me at all.

1213
01:00:52.019 --> 01:00:54.599
It's utterly terrifying, isn't it?

1214
01:00:54.659 --> 01:00:56.760
Just amazingly frightening.

1215
01:00:56.820 --> 01:01:00.360
And then when Amy says, you know, you didn't have to kill her.

1216
01:01:00.420 --> 01:01:01.619
Why did you kill her?

1217
01:01:01.619 --> 01:01:05.219
and it responds and it says its 1st word joy.

1218
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:08.400
And it's just like, holy crap, what do you mean?

1219
01:01:08.460 --> 01:01:10.440
And then it just turns out to be the lady's name.

1220
01:01:10.500 --> 01:01:14.039
But it is really, really terrifying.

1221
01:01:14.099 --> 01:01:16.619
They're properly scary, I think, in a way.

1222
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:21.480
Like, I think they're more scary than the, um, than the angels

1223
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:22.019
even.

1224
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:23.039
I'm gonna go there.

1225
01:01:23.099 --> 01:01:27.840
I think, you know, there's something disgusting about the sort of

1226
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:33.119
the whatever KY jelly they're smearing over the rubber masks and

1227
01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:34.139
gloves.

1228
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.139
You know, the noises they make.

1229
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:39.840
There's all sorts of clicking sounds that they make.

1230
01:01:39.900 --> 01:01:45.719
Just the slowness of their movements, the disgusting giant turkey

1231
01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:47.820
hands.

1232
01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:50.460
And their mouths. so upsetting.

1233
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:54.239
But you have to give it to Stephen, you know, for the angels and

1234
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:57.239
now these guys, you know, rather than necessarily relying on old

1235
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.599
the Daleks again or the cybermen or whatever, you know, that's a

1236
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:01.079
big call.

1237
01:02:01.139 --> 01:02:04.500
I think he's more confident in creating sort of iconic Doctor Who

1238
01:02:04.500 --> 01:02:05.760
monsters than Russell is.

1239
01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:08.880
You know, it's like, oh, it's a person with a rhinoceros head.

1240
01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:10.199
It's a person with a cat head.

1241
01:02:10.260 --> 01:02:11.820
Like it's a person with a fly head.

1242
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:13.860
You know, like he sort of, he does that.

1243
01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:16.679
And that's all fine and that's fun and like he's not trying to

1244
01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:19.440
create iconic Doctor Who monsters, I think.

1245
01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:26.039
But Moffat does too, I think, of the most striking and interesting

1246
01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:26.760
monsters.

1247
01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:30.719
And look, I mean, in a way, the silence are just the opposite of

1248
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:35.820
the angels in that you have to keep looking at them otherwise, you

1249
01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:37.559
can't see them anymore.

1250
01:02:37.619 --> 01:02:40.380
You know, they're not monsters that you.

1251
01:02:40.500 --> 01:02:42.119
Well, no, in fact, are they the same?

1252
01:02:42.179 --> 01:02:43.860
You have to keep looking at them otherwise they get you.

1253
01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:45.119
Yeah, you have to kind of keep looking at them.

1254
01:02:45.179 --> 01:02:45.960
Yeah, yeah.

1255
01:02:46.019 --> 01:02:50.039
I think the difference is and what makes them scarier is that when

1256
01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:51.900
you're looking at a weeping angel, you're safe.

1257
01:02:52.019 --> 01:02:56.820
When you are only in danger from a silent when you look at it.

1258
01:02:56.940 --> 01:03:00.539
Well, except that when they're when you're not looking at it.

1259
01:03:00.659 --> 01:03:02.099
Oh yeah, no, you're right.

1260
01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:04.260
But when you're not looking at it, you could be carrying out the

1261
01:03:04.260 --> 01:03:08.400
weird post-hypnotic suggestion things, you know, you're still

1262
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:09.119
under their control.

1263
01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:10.019
That's true.

1264
01:03:10.019 --> 01:03:10.440
That's true.

1265
01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:12.719
Which they didn't really play with that as much as they could

1266
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:13.019
have.

1267
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:17.340
With the silence, you know, kind of putting the hypnosis on them.

1268
01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:20.460
That just seemed to be kind of like the doctor's MO.

1269
01:03:20.519 --> 01:03:23.880
Well, other than, of course, the guy, the fellow, the next episode

1270
01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:27.239
but I just didn't seem that, that, that, it took for, took a while

1271
01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:28.860
for that to click for me, that that's what they were doing.

1272
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:32.099
I think when we see more of the silence next week, it'll become

1273
01:03:32.099 --> 01:03:32.880
more relevant.

1274
01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:33.599
I think.

1275
01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:34.019
Yeah.

1276
01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:38.519
If I could just say 11 thing about joy before we move on.

1277
01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:44.760
First of all, I just love the actress is giving a performance

1278
01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:49.019
which is clearly I'm in Doctor Who for 3 lines and then I get a

1279
01:03:49.019 --> 01:03:49.320
death.

1280
01:03:49.380 --> 01:03:54.360
She is having the time of her life as she's doing that death

1281
01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:54.900
scene.

1282
01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.119
And also her name is Nancy Baldwin.

1283
01:03:57.179 --> 01:03:58.199
No relation.

1284
01:03:58.380 --> 01:04:00.719
Is she American or British?

1285
01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:03.900
I don't even know that much to be honest with you.

1286
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:04.440
But yeah.

1287
01:04:04.500 --> 01:04:08.699
Because she was doing that accent that's so it feels like a put on

1288
01:04:08.699 --> 01:04:11.880
but it also like is like, oh, no, she's from Yonkers.

1289
01:04:11.940 --> 01:04:13.440
She's your aunt from Yonkers.

1290
01:04:13.500 --> 01:04:15.420
She brings cookies over.

1291
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:17.039
She was at your bar mitzvah.

1292
01:04:17.099 --> 01:04:19.800
Like, that's kind of the vibe I got from her.

1293
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:23.280
It's very period as well, that accent.

1294
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:24.000
Do you know what I mean?

1295
01:04:24.059 --> 01:04:25.860
It is very kind of 1960s.

1296
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:30.360
Is she Frenchy?

1297
01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:31.500
From Greece?

1298
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:32.760
Oh, that's great.

1299
01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:34.199
She was born in New York.

1300
01:04:34.619 --> 01:04:36.300
So there you go.

1301
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:37.139
There you go.

1302
01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:38.639
Oh she's authentic.

1303
01:04:38.699 --> 01:04:41.639
And she's in Mamma Mia, so you know she can't sing.

1304
01:04:41.699 --> 01:04:45.599
But of course, you know, that scene again with her, you know, Amy's

1305
01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:46.679
feeling sick in the restroom.

1306
01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:48.239
We know that she's pregnant.

1307
01:04:48.300 --> 01:04:51.599
You know, we're reinforcing you. you can only remember you while

1308
01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:52.320
we sue you.

1309
01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:57.300
By taking the photo, there's important information there. counting

1310
01:04:57.300 --> 01:04:59.760
towards, you know, the buildup of the monsters and the season

1311
01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:03.780
mystery before we now move on to obviously investigating the

1312
01:05:03.780 --> 01:05:07.440
warehouse in Florida where the little astronaut girl actually is.

1313
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:12.659
Friend of the podcast, Joe Ford, was saying that he thinks that

1314
01:05:12.659 --> 01:05:16.860
that final scene is very slow, and we do spend quite a lot of time

1315
01:05:16.860 --> 01:05:17.519
in the warehouse.

1316
01:05:17.579 --> 01:05:23.820
But my feeling is that quite a lot is going on, and, you know, that

1317
01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:26.579
it's, it's got a lot of atmosphere as well.

1318
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:33.059
I rewatched these episodes with friend of the podcast, Matt H.

1319
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:38.880
And he struck on something very interesting, which is those scenes

1320
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:43.559
there's all that smoke and gunge in those warehouse scenes.

1321
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:48.360
And that sort of makes it feel lived in, gives it depth of field

1322
01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:51.420
and the lighting is mostly from underneath.

1323
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:53.519
So it casts interesting shadows on the face.

1324
01:05:53.579 --> 01:05:55.980
It's very axe files, isn't it?

1325
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:57.000
Yeah, yeah.

1326
01:05:57.059 --> 01:05:57.719
Yeah.

1327
01:05:57.780 --> 01:06:03.599
Again, that very creepy, unique American sci-fi motif going on in

1328
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:04.019
the background.

1329
01:06:05.820 --> 01:06:11.699
And so I guess what's our job in in this warehouse scene.

1330
01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:12.780
What are we trying to do here?

1331
01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:17.760
Look, there is so much going on, you know, you, you know, Canton

1332
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.420
gets to, to, um, travelling the TARDIS and Rory gets to do the

1333
01:06:21.420 --> 01:06:24.059
explanation, you know, about, about that.

1334
01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:27.539
You've also got, you know, the investigation of the alien

1335
01:06:27.539 --> 01:06:28.739
technology in the suit.

1336
01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:33.000
There's lots of flirting between River and the doctor, and Rory

1337
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:34.860
gets to spend some time with River as well.

1338
01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:39.300
Um, and, you know, building up the whole mystery, you know, with

1339
01:06:39.300 --> 01:06:42.059
you know, the investigating of the tunnels and noticing that

1340
01:06:42.059 --> 01:06:45.900
they're really old and and river, like also saying, like, I know

1341
01:06:45.900 --> 01:06:48.119
him more, he knows me less, the worst day is coming.

1342
01:06:48.179 --> 01:06:50.880
There's just so much building of, of information.

1343
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:53.639
Like for everybody, like for the audience.

1344
01:06:53.699 --> 01:06:57.780
Um, so I think it's like reinforcing all these different things

1345
01:06:57.780 --> 01:07:02.280
from the pregnancy to what's going on with the spacesuit to, to, to

1346
01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:03.539
rivers, foreboding, you know?

1347
01:07:03.599 --> 01:07:09.420
We also get the payoff of the weird spaceship in the lodger, which

1348
01:07:09.420 --> 01:07:12.900
I remember being at the tie being like, okay, well, why was this

1349
01:07:12.900 --> 01:07:16.559
never addressed, knowing that the silence thing was still going to

1350
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:18.840
be an ongoing arc the next season.

1351
01:07:18.900 --> 01:07:21.780
And we finally get to see, oh, that's them.

1352
01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:24.780
And it kind of hammers home how sinister they are because it's

1353
01:07:24.780 --> 01:07:27.719
like, oh, they really have been being built up to these creatures

1354
01:07:27.719 --> 01:07:28.500
for a while then.

1355
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.920
I didn't even realise that maximum at all until I watched this and

1356
01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:33.659
I went, hang on, the penny clicked.

1357
01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:34.800
Like, you know, this was in the lodger.

1358
01:07:34.860 --> 01:07:38.039
They've got a hand in that, you know, I had no idea.

1359
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:40.380
Like I just thought, oh, they just reused a step.

1360
01:07:40.440 --> 01:07:41.579
Why have they reused this for?

1361
01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:44.280
I think they have just reused to say it.

1362
01:07:45.719 --> 01:07:49.800
But and I don't think that it was in any way intentional.

1363
01:07:49.860 --> 01:07:53.280
I don't think that that mystery was introduced in the lodger with

1364
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:54.840
the intention of paying it off later.

1365
01:07:54.900 --> 01:07:56.940
But am I wrong, Brendan?

1366
01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:00.960
I have to disagree with you there because there is a bit in the

1367
01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:05.820
lodger where, um, when they go in, there's there's obviously dead

1368
01:08:05.820 --> 01:08:08.579
bodies on the floor, which you don't properly see because they

1369
01:08:08.579 --> 01:08:13.500
hadn't designed the silence yet, but when the doctor's talking to

1370
01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:16.020
Amy, He's like, I've got no clue whose ship it was, there was no

1371
01:08:16.020 --> 01:08:16.380
one in there.

1372
01:08:18.779 --> 01:08:24.000
And there's just, it's, and at the time, I don't recall anyone

1373
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:25.800
going, but hold on, there was a body in there.

1374
01:08:25.859 --> 01:08:27.000
That's good.

1375
01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:28.199
I'd forgotten about the body.

1376
01:08:28.260 --> 01:08:29.520
I don't think I ever saw a body there.

1377
01:08:29.699 --> 01:08:32.039
So that's not a continuity thing.

1378
01:08:32.100 --> 01:08:34.319
That's actually foreshadowing.

1379
01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:35.399
Yeah, I think so.

1380
01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:35.939
I think so.

1381
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:40.739
And yeah, I believe it is a bit of foreshadowing, which if you

1382
01:08:40.739 --> 01:08:43.680
miss it, It doesn't detract.

1383
01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:47.159
But if you draw that connection, it can be made.

1384
01:08:47.220 --> 01:08:48.840
I don't think it's something explicit.

1385
01:08:48.899 --> 01:08:52.319
Like, you know, it's not something that TARDIS Wiki says is

1386
01:08:52.319 --> 01:08:56.340
definitely the case kind of thing, but it's something that fans

1387
01:08:56.340 --> 01:08:59.699
can argue about because of course Stephen Moffatt, you know, he

1388
01:08:59.699 --> 01:09:00.359
was a fan.

1389
01:09:00.420 --> 01:09:03.539
He was writing in the Virgin novels era where it's like every bit

1390
01:09:03.539 --> 01:09:06.420
of continuity must be explained with something that happened on

1391
01:09:06.420 --> 01:09:08.340
ancient Galifrey with the Pythia.

1392
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:12.060
So he knows that fans like arguing about this sort of thing and

1393
01:09:12.060 --> 01:09:13.020
make podcasts about it.

1394
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:15.180
So that's his gift.

1395
01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:16.199
His gift tools.

1396
01:09:31.260 --> 01:09:35.399
Can I say that I think that that speech of Rivers, the speech that

1397
01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:39.119
River gives to Rory, is amazingly great.

1398
01:09:39.659 --> 01:09:43.739
And it's nothing that we don't know about already.

1399
01:09:43.800 --> 01:09:48.779
I think that maybe for a returning audience, the full explanation

1400
01:09:48.779 --> 01:09:52.260
of the way that River and the doctor's relationship works is

1401
01:09:52.260 --> 01:09:57.600
necessary, but it also works on its own terms and it's paid off

1402
01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:00.420
just amazingly beautifully next week.

1403
01:10:00.420 --> 01:10:02.699
I think it's really good.

1404
01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:04.979
It doesn't need to be there.

1405
01:10:05.039 --> 01:10:07.199
It is a purely kind of character thing.

1406
01:10:07.260 --> 01:10:11.279
It's purely there to give Alex Kingston the chance to do some real

1407
01:10:11.279 --> 01:10:12.539
proper acting.

1408
01:10:12.899 --> 01:10:16.380
And I just think it's magnificent.

1409
01:10:16.859 --> 01:10:19.560
Because quite often she's been quite...

1410
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:24.960
River's quite flippant and evasive and doing the one-liners, but

1411
01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:28.439
to have actually sort of state some fairly serious stuff, like, you

1412
01:10:28.439 --> 01:10:31.500
know, without sort of taking that overly humourous, sort of

1413
01:10:31.500 --> 01:10:33.720
deflecting sort of line. you know, it's very powerful.

1414
01:10:33.779 --> 01:10:37.619
Um, and also just the investigation of all those tunnels with all

1415
01:10:37.619 --> 01:10:38.460
the silence as well.

1416
01:10:38.579 --> 01:10:39.479
It's very creepy.

1417
01:10:39.539 --> 01:10:41.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1418
01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:45.060
And I just love the kind of all clear thing that happens sort of

1419
01:10:45.060 --> 01:10:45.720
repeatedly.

1420
01:10:45.779 --> 01:10:48.359
So it's like, you know, they just turn out...

1421
01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:52.199
It's like the get out of the house moment, to the audience. like

1422
01:10:52.199 --> 01:10:52.920
no, don't.

1423
01:10:52.979 --> 01:10:54.479
They can't do anything.

1424
01:10:54.659 --> 01:10:57.000
And that's what makes them so frightening.

1425
01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:00.119
The way they huddle together too, there's something like super

1426
01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:03.479
gross about how there's a sort of quality of them all sort of

1427
01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:06.359
touching and yeah, like huddled together.

1428
01:11:06.420 --> 01:11:07.439
There's no strau-esque.

1429
01:11:07.500 --> 01:11:08.039
Yeah, yeah.

1430
01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:09.720
So I guess to go back to what you're saying, Nathan.

1431
01:11:09.779 --> 01:11:13.680
I think this whole warehouse sequence is just to reinforce so many

1432
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:16.680
different points throughout the episode for the new audience.

1433
01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:18.779
As well as the old.

1434
01:11:19.020 --> 01:11:24.539
Yeah, I think the Amy's pregnancy thing, which is very odd.

1435
01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:29.520
Um, and we will talk about that all year, but, you know, very, very

1436
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:33.479
early on the doctor says to Amy, you've put on a few pounds, and

1437
01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:37.619
that's just like a little kind of inappropriate thing that the

1438
01:11:37.619 --> 01:11:39.060
doctor says because he's an idiot.

1439
01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:43.020
And then she's sick and that's absolutely universal television

1440
01:11:43.020 --> 01:11:45.000
shorthand for she's pregnant.

1441
01:11:45.060 --> 01:11:47.640
That's the only reason a woman's ever sick on TV.

1442
01:11:50.279 --> 01:11:54.539
And so we know, but there's also an ambiguity about that too

1443
01:11:54.539 --> 01:12:00.960
because the silent in the bathroom told Amy to tell the doctor

1444
01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:02.039
something.

1445
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:07.979
Is that what the silent wanted Amy to tell the doctor?

1446
01:12:08.100 --> 01:12:11.460
Oh, I think...

1447
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:13.920
Did she say I have to tell the doctor because I have to warn him

1448
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:19.439
that there is something bigger going on here than just, um, Nixon

1449
01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:20.159
being Nixon.

1450
01:12:20.579 --> 01:12:26.520
Maybe, but the silence says, tell the doctor, the thing that he

1451
01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:29.340
knows and the thing that he can't know, or something, the thing he

1452
01:12:29.340 --> 01:12:31.500
doesn't know and the thing he can't know, I can't remember the

1453
01:12:31.500 --> 01:12:33.840
dialogue exactly, but I mean, there's some ambiguity.

1454
01:12:33.899 --> 01:12:37.619
I think that we're supposed to think that her telling the doctor

1455
01:12:37.619 --> 01:12:40.920
so urgently, like the thing is coming to kill them.

1456
01:12:40.979 --> 01:12:41.760
Do you know what I mean?

1457
01:12:41.819 --> 01:12:45.060
you know, and she still has to tell the doctor that she's pregnant

1458
01:12:45.060 --> 01:12:48.359
and it's, is it the silent making her do that?

1459
01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:53.819
So what is there, and I have a lot of issues with the silence in

1460
01:12:53.819 --> 01:12:56.460
the later half of the season, which I think actually undercuts how

1461
01:12:56.460 --> 01:12:59.220
frightening they are because it makes them feel less frightening

1462
01:12:59.220 --> 01:13:01.800
when you discover they're kind of a subordinate race, really.

1463
01:13:01.859 --> 01:13:06.239
Um, I was under of the understanding that the silent snow, they

1464
01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:09.539
can't kill the doctor in this time period.

1465
01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:14.100
So really everything they're doing is just to kind of ensure the

1466
01:13:14.100 --> 01:13:18.420
plan goes along smoothly at this point that the doctor will still

1467
01:13:18.420 --> 01:13:19.619
die in 2011.

1468
01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:24.000
Are they conscious of the fact that they're trying to undo that

1469
01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:24.600
plan?

1470
01:13:24.659 --> 01:13:28.859
Like, I mean, do they share a brain across the time stream?

1471
01:13:28.920 --> 01:13:32.220
Like, do they, you know, their silence in 2011, just kind of

1472
01:13:32.220 --> 01:13:35.579
giving, like, texting the silence anxiety scene and being like, oh

1473
01:13:35.579 --> 01:13:36.359
heads up, they come in.

1474
01:13:36.420 --> 01:13:38.340
No, they just remember it from then.

1475
01:13:38.939 --> 01:13:43.140
So it's just a lot of, now I don't want to say plot hole because I

1476
01:13:43.140 --> 01:13:46.380
think that's a little bit, that's not fair, but there's something

1477
01:13:46.380 --> 01:13:47.880
going on here that I don't really understand.

1478
01:13:47.939 --> 01:13:48.720
That's not clicking for me.

1479
01:13:49.199 --> 01:13:54.539
I think that it is a fairly typical feature of Moffat's mysteries

1480
01:13:54.539 --> 01:13:58.020
that sometimes he doesn't want you to push too hard on them.

1481
01:13:59.640 --> 01:14:02.039
I think that's actually what it goes.

1482
01:14:02.100 --> 01:14:04.319
Yeah, it's a paradox.

1483
01:14:04.380 --> 01:14:07.560
You know, it's are the silence doing this because of something the

1484
01:14:07.560 --> 01:14:10.680
doctor's done or is the doctor acting because the silence are

1485
01:14:10.680 --> 01:14:11.039
doing this.

1486
01:14:11.100 --> 01:14:15.600
And later on, Moffat will do a story where it's like, okay, no

1487
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:17.819
we're going to address that this is about a paradox with Peter

1488
01:14:17.819 --> 01:14:19.859
Capaldi under the lake and before the flood.

1489
01:14:19.979 --> 01:14:24.180
And the response to that range is from, oh my god, it's so clever

1490
01:14:24.180 --> 01:14:27.060
which is sort of how I look at the story, 2 people going, oh my

1491
01:14:27.060 --> 01:14:29.279
god, that's so prosaic that you're actually explaining what the

1492
01:14:29.279 --> 01:14:30.180
paradox is.

1493
01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:34.680
So I, yeah, I think, I think, as you say, this is more for wanting

1494
01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:36.899
you not to push too hard, not because he's afraid the whole thing

1495
01:14:36.899 --> 01:14:40.680
is going to fall over, but because he's kind of, I think Moffatt's

1496
01:14:40.680 --> 01:14:43.380
saying, that's that's not the thing that matters.

1497
01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.979
The thing that matters is the adventure and whatnot.

1498
01:14:47.100 --> 01:14:50.159
But I think he's also going, if you really think it matters, though

1499
01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:53.579
I look forward to your book of fan writings about it, I look

1500
01:14:53.579 --> 01:14:56.699
forward to your discontinuity guide, because he's very much a

1501
01:14:56.699 --> 01:15:02.100
Terence Dix kind of writer in that way in that he Moffatt loves

1502
01:15:02.100 --> 01:15:07.619
the imagination of fans and he gives fans plenty of sort of

1503
01:15:07.619 --> 01:15:11.220
playground to play in with his ideas by not nailing everything

1504
01:15:11.220 --> 01:15:12.060
down.

1505
01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:16.439
And there are a lot of things to criticise Moffat 4 and how he

1506
01:15:16.439 --> 01:15:22.079
relates to characters, say, who are women or who are queer.

1507
01:15:22.140 --> 01:15:26.279
But at the same time, I do think he's a writer who listens to fan

1508
01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:30.180
feedback because things that are criticised in one season, you can

1509
01:15:30.180 --> 01:15:34.380
see him trying to address in the following season, not always

1510
01:15:34.380 --> 01:15:39.000
successfully, but I think because he is such a fan himself and was

1511
01:15:39.000 --> 01:15:41.939
a fan at a time when the show was at its height then when it was

1512
01:15:41.939 --> 01:15:44.880
off, and now he's writing for it at its height again.

1513
01:15:44.939 --> 01:15:48.899
Even though I think around this time he removed himself from

1514
01:15:48.899 --> 01:15:54.359
social media, because, you know, people were sending him, uh

1515
01:15:54.359 --> 01:15:55.979
disgusting messages, basically.

1516
01:15:56.039 --> 01:15:58.500
Um, you know, then...

1517
01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:02.699
Yeah, there's there, you know, there's literary criticism, and

1518
01:16:02.699 --> 01:16:04.199
then there's being an answer.

1519
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:09.060
But I always get the impression watching Moffat subsequent season

1520
01:16:09.060 --> 01:16:12.060
it's like, okay, somehow you have heard what people were

1521
01:16:12.060 --> 01:16:14.520
criticising from a point of view of, I love what you're doing, but

1522
01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:15.420
can you do more of this?

1523
01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:22.020
And even though there are elements of this story arc, I don't

1524
01:16:22.020 --> 01:16:23.939
enjoy the season-long story arc.

1525
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:27.180
It is so intricately plotted that I respect the craft of it.

1526
01:16:28.319 --> 01:16:30.239
And that starts here.

1527
01:16:30.300 --> 01:16:33.600
And I agree with you then. completely.

1528
01:16:33.659 --> 01:16:38.760
Um, And so I guess that leads us into the cliffhanger.

1529
01:16:39.300 --> 01:16:45.119
With, you know, everything in slow motion, Amy, you know, I'm

1530
01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:50.579
pregnant, an astronaut, raising an arm and uh, and then Amy

1531
01:16:50.579 --> 01:16:55.739
grabbing a gun and screaming and shooting at a small girl in an

1532
01:16:55.739 --> 01:16:56.399
astronaut's.

1533
01:16:57.779 --> 01:17:00.479
Where did she learn how to shoot a gun?

1534
01:17:00.539 --> 01:17:01.140
She's British.

1535
01:17:02.460 --> 01:17:06.960
Remember that moment in the Oval Office where the doctor only

1536
01:17:06.960 --> 01:17:11.100
realises that he's under threat from being shot when someone calls

1537
01:17:11.100 --> 01:17:12.060
out their Americans?

1538
01:17:12.180 --> 01:17:14.399
Okay, so what just go?

1539
01:17:14.399 --> 01:17:19.380
So dark about that is that this was before the big mass school

1540
01:17:19.380 --> 01:17:22.619
shootings happened so you could still make jokes about that and

1541
01:17:22.619 --> 01:17:23.100
they were funny.

1542
01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:24.899
Now it's just like, oh.

1543
01:17:25.079 --> 01:17:26.699
It was not funny anymore.

1544
01:17:26.819 --> 01:17:29.760
That's a little funny What do we feel about the cliffhanger?

1545
01:17:29.819 --> 01:17:31.260
Amy shoots a little girl in the face.

1546
01:17:31.319 --> 01:17:32.880
How do we feel about that?

1547
01:17:33.180 --> 01:17:36.060
I'm for it, spoiler alert.

1548
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:38.460
Oh, yeah.

1549
01:17:38.460 --> 01:17:40.500
So you're 4 little girls being shot in the field.

1550
01:17:40.500 --> 01:17:41.399
So that's now recorded.

1551
01:17:41.399 --> 01:17:44.039
She wasn't quite sure what she was doing.

1552
01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:47.520
She had it coming.

1553
01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:50.159
No, I'm fine with it.

1554
01:17:50.220 --> 01:17:50.939
I'm fine with them.

1555
01:17:51.000 --> 01:17:55.140
You know, Amy picking up a gun and trying to solve the situation.

1556
01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:57.960
I mean, Rory and River have their cliffhanger.

1557
01:17:58.020 --> 01:18:03.600
It's all, you know, I have to say that I can't remember Orion and

1558
01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:04.739
Rivers Cliffhanger.

1559
01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:05.520
What's happening to them?

1560
01:18:05.579 --> 01:18:07.500
Are they struggling to escape the silence?

1561
01:18:07.619 --> 01:18:13.020
They're in, they're in the silent ship and um, Rivers fiddling

1562
01:18:13.020 --> 01:18:15.479
with the controls and Rory, and she's like, Rory, watch the door

1563
01:18:15.479 --> 01:18:17.579
and he watches the door and he keeps getting, seeing the silence

1564
01:18:17.579 --> 01:18:18.060
getting closer.

1565
01:18:18.119 --> 01:18:20.159
And then when he turns to tell River, It's like, no, it's fine.

1566
01:18:20.220 --> 01:18:22.920
And then he turns around and gets scared and no, it's fine.

1567
01:18:22.979 --> 01:18:26.640
And then on the 3rd time, River is giving some techno babble and

1568
01:18:26.640 --> 01:18:29.340
there's a flash of light behind her and she says, Rory, and it

1569
01:18:29.340 --> 01:18:29.699
cuts away.

1570
01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:30.720
Oh, wow, okay.

1571
01:18:30.779 --> 01:18:32.039
So that's their cliffhanger.

1572
01:18:32.100 --> 01:18:33.779
Actually, no, I know what I think.

1573
01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:37.199
I thought at the time, Stephen's greater than the mould.

1574
01:18:37.260 --> 01:18:40.619
We haven't had a cliffhanger 2 parter at the beginning of the

1575
01:18:40.619 --> 01:18:43.319
season from this point forward in the show.

1576
01:18:43.380 --> 01:18:45.840
We won't have that same structure that we've had for the last 5

1577
01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:51.239
seasons in terms of, you know, opening episode, early 2 parter

1578
01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:54.779
late, uh, mid 2 parter, late 2 parter, that's never here ever

1579
01:18:54.779 --> 01:18:55.020
again.

1580
01:18:55.079 --> 01:18:56.220
He's now doing his own thing.

1581
01:18:56.279 --> 01:18:57.359
It's completely different.

1582
01:18:57.479 --> 01:19:00.180
That's part of what I was thinking.

1583
01:19:00.239 --> 01:19:04.140
And I think, I think the tone of this is vastly different from any

1584
01:19:04.140 --> 01:19:05.699
previous opener too.

1585
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:08.399
Like, I think he's breaking the mould already, just right from the

1586
01:19:08.399 --> 01:19:12.060
very beginning, by making it this sort of massive world-spanning

1587
01:19:12.060 --> 01:19:17.220
you know, serious-ish Doctor Who serious epic, you know, instead

1588
01:19:17.220 --> 01:19:21.659
of little fat people kind of, you know, wandering along the

1589
01:19:21.659 --> 01:19:23.880
streets and stuff, you know, fun and light.

1590
01:19:23.939 --> 01:19:24.899
It's not that at all.

1591
01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:29.340
Russell T Davies pushed the envelope by making comments on

1592
01:19:29.340 --> 01:19:29.819
society.

1593
01:19:29.880 --> 01:19:31.560
You know what I mean?

1594
01:19:31.619 --> 01:19:32.760
And they were big sweeping things.

1595
01:19:32.819 --> 01:19:35.760
So the adipose with the little fat people was about the weight

1596
01:19:35.760 --> 01:19:39.960
loss industry and body image and what have you, but packaged in

1597
01:19:39.960 --> 01:19:42.479
such a way that you can just enjoy a nice little romp with little

1598
01:19:42.479 --> 01:19:44.699
fat blobs.

1599
01:19:44.760 --> 01:19:48.960
Whereas Stephen Moffat pushes the envelope in a very personal

1600
01:19:48.960 --> 01:19:49.680
manner.

1601
01:19:49.739 --> 01:19:52.380
Amy has just said she's pregnant.

1602
01:19:52.439 --> 01:19:55.140
She's going to have a child and then she shoots a child.

1603
01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:57.960
Same child, actually it turns out.

1604
01:19:58.020 --> 01:19:58.800
Same here.

1605
01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:01.020
Small world.

1606
01:20:01.800 --> 01:20:05.939
But yeah, it's kind of like Moffat Moffat will push the envelope

1607
01:20:05.939 --> 01:20:07.739
by saying, yeah, these are your heroes.

1608
01:20:07.800 --> 01:20:11.279
Look at them doing something really questionable and let's talk

1609
01:20:11.279 --> 01:20:11.819
about that.

1610
01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:15.000
Whereas Russell will say, look at the world doing something really

1611
01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:15.779
questionable.

1612
01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:16.560
Turn left.

1613
01:20:16.619 --> 01:20:21.300
World War 3 and he says, let's talk about the world.

1614
01:20:21.359 --> 01:20:24.000
Whereas Stephen Moffatt says, let's talk about our characters.

1615
01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:27.539
And there's strengths and weaknesses to both approaches, but last

1616
01:20:27.539 --> 01:20:29.340
year was Stephen doing Russell.

1617
01:20:29.460 --> 01:20:32.760
He does Russell's format at the, as you say, Todd, this year, it's

1618
01:20:32.760 --> 01:20:35.520
Stephen Moffatt goes, well, why can't we have a two-parter to

1619
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:35.760
open?

1620
01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:38.159
Let's have a two-part.

1621
01:20:38.220 --> 01:20:39.899
We've already established who these people are.

1622
01:20:39.960 --> 01:20:42.300
We'll have a quick montage at the beginning telling everyone who

1623
01:20:42.300 --> 01:20:45.479
they are again and then we are off and we are having a full

1624
01:20:44.760 --> 01:20:46.560
blooded 90 minute adventure.

1625
01:20:46.739 --> 01:20:50.699
But also, you know, he's posed all these questions like the

1626
01:20:50.699 --> 01:20:54.119
doctor's deaths, Amy's pregnant, silence, worst day for a river to

1627
01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:56.579
come, and yet we're still not going to get any resolution in this

1628
01:20:56.579 --> 01:20:57.060
episode.

1629
01:20:57.119 --> 01:20:59.640
So you know, you've still got to come back next week.

1630
01:21:00.899 --> 01:21:04.619
No, and I don't think she and so for the record, the way I

1631
01:21:04.619 --> 01:21:07.619
interpret it seems, I don't think she was cognisant that it was a

1632
01:21:07.619 --> 01:21:07.979
little girl.

1633
01:21:07.979 --> 01:21:09.779
I think everything was kind of happening at once.

1634
01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:13.439
And then when she shot the gun, That's when she realised, oh, it's

1635
01:21:13.439 --> 01:21:14.579
a little girl and it was too late.

1636
01:21:14.640 --> 01:21:17.279
Of course, it's, you know, not too late as we find out.

1637
01:21:17.340 --> 01:21:17.640
But.

1638
01:21:18.300 --> 01:21:19.859
Yeah, yeah.

1639
01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:23.220
And again, great acting from Karen in that moment, just sort of

1640
01:21:23.220 --> 01:21:24.720
face acting.

1641
01:21:24.779 --> 01:21:27.840
We've joked on the podcast before, you know, watching Billy

1642
01:21:27.840 --> 01:21:28.500
Piper.

1643
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:31.140
The game is to pick what part of her face is biggest in each

1644
01:21:31.140 --> 01:21:31.800
shot.

1645
01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:38.819
And with Karen, it's always the eye. those amazing eyes and she

1646
01:21:38.819 --> 01:21:40.800
can act so well with them.

1647
01:21:40.859 --> 01:21:46.439
Like she is so expressive that she can tell you the character's

1648
01:21:46.439 --> 01:21:47.340
mood without a single word.

1649
01:21:47.399 --> 01:21:49.560
Yeah, good for her.

1650
01:22:15.300 --> 01:22:17.579
Well, maybe, sir, that's all.

1651
01:22:17.640 --> 01:22:18.600
We have time for this week.

1652
01:22:18.659 --> 01:22:21.720
We'll be back next week for an episode of a different show all

1653
01:22:21.720 --> 01:22:23.520
together in Day of the Moon.

1654
01:22:23.819 --> 01:22:27.659
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1655
01:22:27.659 --> 01:22:30.539
and you can keep up with us at flight through entirety on Facebook

1656
01:22:30.539 --> 01:22:33.840
at FT Podcast on Twitter, and on our website

1657
01:22:33.840 --> 01:22:36.659
flightsthroughentirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

1658
01:22:36.659 --> 01:22:40.020
podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody Interterra.

1659
01:22:40.140 --> 01:22:43.020
So, Maxwell, where can people find you?

1660
01:22:43.500 --> 01:22:48.539
So for a podcast called Relic, the Lost Treasure podcast, which

1661
01:22:48.539 --> 01:22:52.859
you can just Google, it's on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, everything

1662
01:22:52.859 --> 01:22:57.119
if you want to connect with me online, I'm really overly active

1663
01:22:57.119 --> 01:23:01.979
arguably too active on Twitter, and that's just at Lost Treasure

1664
01:23:01.979 --> 01:23:02.460
Pod.

1665
01:23:02.520 --> 01:23:07.500
I'm also streaming every Final Fantasy known to Man on Twitch and

1666
01:23:07.500 --> 01:23:10.619
you could find me there at Treasure Hunter Maxwell.

1667
01:23:10.979 --> 01:23:15.479
Until next time, if you run into Jim the Fish, remember to give

1668
01:23:15.479 --> 01:23:18.180
him a big sloppy kiss from Brendan and me.

1669
01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:20.939
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1670
01:23:21.000 --> 01:23:22.680
Blub, blah.

1671
01:23:22.739 --> 01:23:23.699
See you soon.

1672
01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:24.420
Bye.

1673
01:23:28.920 --> 01:23:32.760
That was Flight through entirety, Star and Todd Bilby, Nathan

1674
01:23:32.760 --> 01:23:35.279
Bottomley, Maxwell Covialo and Brendan Jones.

1675
01:23:35.340 --> 01:23:37.560
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1676
01:23:37.619 --> 01:23:41.100
This episode, Shades of Paranoia, was recorded on the 1st of

1677
01:23:41.100 --> 01:23:44.220
August 2021 and released on the 12th of September.

1678
01:23:44.819 --> 01:23:48.779
Fans of listening to the friends and hosts of this podcast talking

1679
01:23:48.779 --> 01:23:52.859
about ropey BBC science fiction series will also enjoy maximum

1680
01:23:52.859 --> 01:23:56.880
power, an exciting new podcast about Blake 7, which will be

1681
01:23:56.880 --> 01:23:58.619
launching on the 19th of this month.

1682
01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:03.659
That's at maximumpowerpodcast.com and at maximumpowerpod on

1683
01:24:03.659 --> 01:24:04.079
Twitter.

1684
01:24:05.340 --> 01:24:08.699
I think that we've gotten out.

1685
01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:09.659
Do you know what I mean?

1686
01:24:09.779 --> 01:24:13.020
And I think that I'm going to, I might rearrange some things and

1687
01:24:13.020 --> 01:24:15.239
move Tods thing to the end.

1688
01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:17.460
But I think that we've got an out.

1689
01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:19.800
We've gone quite long, like it's an hour and a half .

1690
01:24:21.600 --> 01:24:25.500
I thought that we would struggle to talk for 50 minutes about this

1691
01:24:25.500 --> 01:24:28.380
episode because it is kind of a bit linear, but there's a lot

1692
01:24:28.380 --> 01:24:28.920
going on.

1693
01:24:28.979 --> 01:24:32.819
So let's take a quick break.

1694
01:24:32.880 --> 01:24:34.500
Do you want to do an outro?

1695
01:24:34.560 --> 01:24:36.960
Oh, I never remember that.

1696
01:24:37.020 --> 01:24:39.359
And I've only done how many episodes of this.

1697
01:24:39.420 --> 01:24:40.680
Let me do an outro.

1698
01:24:40.739 --> 01:24:41.520
Jesus Christ.

1699
01:24:41.579 --> 01:24:43.140
What are we up to, 214?

1700
01:24:43.199 --> 01:24:45.479
This is episode 216.

1701
01:24:45.720 --> 01:24:46.920
Oh there you go.

1702
01:24:46.979 --> 01:24:49.979
To be fair to me, I've only been doing the outro since episode

1703
01:24:49.979 --> 01:24:51.000
132.

1704
01:24:51.239 --> 01:24:52.859
Yeah, still a baby.

1705
01:24:53.100 --> 01:24:55.500
When did you when did you start?

1706
01:24:55.619 --> 01:24:56.460
With Doctor Who?

1707
01:24:56.520 --> 01:24:57.840
At the very, very beginning.

1708
01:24:58.319 --> 01:25:02.220
So with the... on Earth, the child.

1709
01:25:02.279 --> 01:25:02.939
Oh, wow.

1710
01:25:03.000 --> 01:25:06.420
Yeah, so I was the primary host for all of the classic series.

1711
01:25:06.539 --> 01:25:11.279
Um, and then with the new series, Nathan took over as primary host

1712
01:25:11.279 --> 01:25:12.359
and I do about half of them now.

1713
01:25:12.420 --> 01:25:13.560
Oh my gosh.

1714
01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:17.880
Since 2014.

1715
01:25:18.539 --> 01:25:19.979
Yeah.

1716
01:25:20.039 --> 01:25:21.899
It's a labour of love.

1717
01:25:21.960 --> 01:25:22.800
All right, here goes.