WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:05:43 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:45.479 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast hosted by the sort of boys that give motorcars pet names. 2 00:00:45.539 --> 00:00:47.219 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:50.700 I'm James I'm Stephen. and I'm Dan. 4 00:00:50.820 --> 00:01:05.700 Well, this week's episode features special guest writer Neil Gaiman, the famous comic book writer slash novelist who put the sand into the sandman, the grave into the graveyard book, and the nightmare into nightmare in silver. 5 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:12.659 But that's all in the past or possibly the future, but in the present, let's talk about the doctor's wife. 6 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:46.439 So, this started life as a whiteboard in John Nathan Turner's office, is that right? 7 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:54.420 Yeah, wasn't it meant to be the Caves of Andrazani, but it was a way of JNT trying to find out who the mole was in the BBC office. 8 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:54.840 Is that right? 9 00:01:55.560 --> 00:02:05.340 And of course, the thing about it was that it was a title that would have been completely impossible in Classic Who or 80s Doctor Who in particular. 10 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:11.580 You could never, ever, ever have even sort of countenance the idea of the doctor having a wife. 11 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:17.699 And so it was an absolutely kind of obviously fake episode title, I think. 12 00:02:18.180 --> 00:02:22.319 I love that there's a there's a mole in the BBC office. 13 00:02:22.379 --> 00:02:22.800 Did they catch? 14 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:23.639 Did they catch her? 15 00:02:23.699 --> 00:02:25.620 But that's lots of history. 16 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:26.400 I think so. 17 00:02:26.460 --> 00:02:33.840 Well, like, I mean, you couldn't imagine him having a wife until she left the show and then they got married just a few months later. 18 00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:42.960 That's right This is, I think, sort of fairly universally liked, isn't it? 19 00:02:43.020 --> 00:02:43.560 by everyone. 20 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:45.360 Certainly by me. 21 00:02:45.419 --> 00:02:51.599 I think it's one of those great totemic high points, I guess, in the Stephen Moffat era for me. 22 00:02:51.659 --> 00:02:56.699 It does help, obviously, having Neil Gaiman on board, but I also feel like it's the combination between the 2 of them. 23 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:07.080 Moffatt's obviously edited this and sent a lot of notes back according to a lot of the sort of information around this episode to Gamer to make sure that it does actually sing and it really does. 24 00:03:07.259 --> 00:03:13.199 Just a really good, um, just just starts with a really great idea. and goes on from there. 25 00:03:13.259 --> 00:03:14.280 It's very imaginative. 26 00:03:14.340 --> 00:03:19.199 The the sort of the settings very evocative, but they got a great writer and it all came together. 27 00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:21.780 I feel like, with a cast and crew who are obviously having a great time. 28 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:24.300 Oh, look, I love this story. 29 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:48.479 We were having a conversation the other day, Nathan, about it being a little thin, but I can forgive its thinness, because it's just, it's so enjoyable and like this, um, so many rich characters and actors in it, um, and I, yeah, no, I, I, I, unconditionally love this story. 30 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:51.539 And mainly just for Saran Jones. 31 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:53.039 Yeah, isn't she great? 32 00:03:53.639 --> 00:04:08.580 She, um, of course, turns up in Sarah Jane Adventures doing just the most spectacular turn as the Mona Lisa, uh, running around an art gallery in Cardiff, presumably with a giant space gun. 33 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:10.800 And come on, it's an ealing. 34 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:11.460 It's healing. 35 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:12.180 That's right. 36 00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:16.740 She really is absolutely extraordinarily good. 37 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:23.939 And I think in a way, the episode really kind of hinges on how good her performance is. 38 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.980 And so it's perfect casting and really just a sublimely great performance. 39 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:38.100 I think she's given like, you know, the lines that she's given up and the direction that she's given really sets her up, but it's she really, she just nails that performance. 40 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:45.600 It's just sort of a high strong, and then laconic, and then there's the hair and the dress, and it all goes so well together, I think she's just wonderful. 41 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.199 Seems to me like such a gaming character. 42 00:04:49.259 --> 00:04:52.920 I'm not sure whether it's more for a game and sort of bringing this to the fore. 43 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:58.019 But, you know, that sort of otherworldly kookiness, which is just, yeah, she plays it wonderfully. 44 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:03.600 But I think the direction to her was to sort of play it like the doctor, which I think is really quite evident. 45 00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:08.639 I sort of read that online to sort of do a bit of research for this. 46 00:05:08.699 --> 00:05:20.220 And then I read, I watched the episode back a 2nd time and it was like, actually, she's very much playing it like Matt Smith, that sort of otherworldly kookiness that they sort of bring both bring to the performances in this one. 47 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:20.759 I love it. 48 00:05:20.819 --> 00:05:21.839 I've got that. 49 00:05:21.899 --> 00:05:24.779 I've actually got that written so many times in my notes I've just got written. 50 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:38.040 That's so gaming. sort of the hair piled on top of a head and the sort of the black lace and that sort of, I guess, that sort of Tim Burtoney, Helena Bonham Carter type type character, you know, that we see so many times. 51 00:05:38.100 --> 00:05:38.459 She's great. 52 00:05:38.519 --> 00:06:01.379 I'm not as familiar with Gaiman's work, I think, perhaps as I should be, although we assigned the graveyard book to year 7 and 8 at school and got all of the kids to read it as a kind of big sort of book week book club thing, and I thought it was, you know, absolutely spectacular and adorable. 53 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:25.560 But I get the sense that, that the setting itself is a bit gaminy, like a sort of trash heap plug hole at the end of the universe and the characters like, like auntie an uncle and a nephew, that sort of technological junkyard, kind of slash graveyard that's kind of like sort of semi-Victorian, but also a little bit cyberpunky. pretty, that's quite gaming. 54 00:06:25.620 --> 00:06:36.120 I'm not, I haven't never really been a, not a huge gaming fan, but I've, his works, is also very familiar, kind of, his work is very familiar to me, and I've always got time for an old British goth. 55 00:06:38.459 --> 00:06:41.579 Says the man wearing the Joy Division T-shirt. 56 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:47.279 I've actually been reading the Sandman. 57 00:06:47.339 --> 00:06:48.240 Oh yeah. 58 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:53.699 Because I'd never read it and there's a Netflix adaptation coming. 59 00:06:53.699 --> 00:06:57.000 And I was like, what is all the fuss about? 60 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:07.259 It's, and it is, yeah, there are a lot of, there are a lot of gaming tropes in this story that are really evident in, like in some of his earliest writing. 61 00:07:07.379 --> 00:07:13.740 Like he does have a, a really clear voice that he brings to this. 62 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:26.819 And so this isn't the 1st attempt that Moffat has made to get a kind of big name writer in, and even next week, he's going to try it again. 63 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.620 So we've had Simon Nye. 64 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:30.000 We've had Richard Curtis. 65 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:34.019 We're going to have Matthew Graham from Life on Mars next week. 66 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:43.019 And he's done that in a way that, I think, has brought something to Doctor Who that it hasn't had before. 67 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:45.480 I think Amy's choice is surprising. 68 00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:48.240 I think that Vincent and the doctor. 69 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:52.680 Again, is the show kind of breaking new ground. 70 00:07:52.740 --> 00:07:57.779 And so I think it has been kind of a fairly productive approach. 71 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:09.779 In a way, in a way, this is the 1st attempt. of him trying to bring a big name writer onto the show because he commissioned him for series five. 72 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:11.040 Ah, yes. 73 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:21.120 This was actually supposed to take the slot that eventually went to the lodger, but they had to push it because of the cost of Mounting this story was huge. 74 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:23.160 Right. 75 00:08:23.220 --> 00:08:26.160 So budgetary issues sort of meant that this got bumped to series 6. 76 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:37.980 I wonder whether it actually doesn't fit better into series 5, um, and particularly if it was so late on into the series, it sort of foreshadows, you know, there's there's a, um, it opens, of course, with hope in a box, doesn't it? 77 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.320 Um, and it ends in that in that way as well. 78 00:08:40.379 --> 00:08:48.539 And I just wonder whether that would have been a beautiful thematic link through to the Pandorica, which obviously based on hope being the last thing in Pandora's box. 79 00:08:48.659 --> 00:08:50.159 I think it would have worked a little bit better. 80 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:52.919 But this way kind of works as well because it sort of foreshadows. 81 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:59.399 Here we have the doctor's wife, but of course we've got the wedding of river song right at the end as well, which is also the doctor's wife. 82 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:01.080 So there's a nice little link there too. 83 00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:14.519 Despite all that gamanness, though, I reckon that I can detect Moffat's hand in the dialogue. 84 00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:22.259 I mean, I think the, you know, biting is like kissing only there's a winner is absolutely classic Moffat. 85 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:41.159 And the explanation of the bubble universe where the doctor explains it, and then, you know, someone takes up with that, and then he says, no, it's not like that at all, but yes, if that helps, which, you know, actually happened, I think last episode, didn't it? 86 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:43.440 It seems to be a thing that he's doing. 87 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:45.539 So it is very moffity still. 88 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:54.779 I think I read that Gaiman had a lot of trouble with the script and because there were some budget cuts, they had to do some rewrites and Moffat jumped in and did a whole bunch of that. 89 00:09:54.840 --> 00:10:00.360 And I can't even, like, I get, there's some things in there they did to, very clever things in there they did to save money. 90 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:18.840 Like, they sort of use those that corridor set. a bunch of times, and they, I really like the, where they, they get house to speak for the 1st time just through the uncle and auntie characters, which I think, and it's basically just a disembodied voice, but it's just a clever way to save money, and then they've got the fabulous, fabulous Michael Sheen to do that voice. 91 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:34.259 Uh, And then they um, then they get the Doctor Who experience and film, film on the, the, the, the, I can't even, but then you've got things like that junkyard set and the whole, all of those, all of those sets are fabulous. 92 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:35.220 Like they're so... 93 00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:37.740 Drunkyard set is a quarry. 94 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:39.179 Just the query. 95 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.700 It's amazingly well done. 96 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:49.019 Like that giant looming kind of spaceship hulk over the place where the TARDIS arrives. 97 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:50.940 And then later the hardest graveyard. 98 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:52.559 That is also a great again. 99 00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:57.179 But it's a quarry that they've kind of beefed up with CG in a really kind of effective way. 100 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:59.940 I think it looks really good Yeah, with match shots. 101 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:01.440 And just filled it with crap. 102 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:04.679 And it's so simple, but it just looks, it's really evocative. 103 00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:06.960 You buy it straight away and it's kind of there. 104 00:11:07.019 --> 00:11:10.320 They're kind of surrounded by detritus for the entire episode. 105 00:11:10.379 --> 00:11:12.539 And I think I think it's wonderful. 106 00:11:12.539 --> 00:11:13.320 Fabulous. 107 00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:15.600 Michael Pickwade is fantastic, isn't he? 108 00:11:15.659 --> 00:11:17.639 Oh, he's superb. 109 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:18.059 Absolutely. 110 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:21.299 But I also think it's kind of what the 3 doctors was meant to look like. 111 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:27.960 And you're talking earlier about Moffatt's sort of trademark dialogue there, Nathan. 112 00:11:28.019 --> 00:11:38.279 Like, isn't that example of the bubble on the bubble, a bit like, you know, the brigadier trying to surmise what the space lightning is, and the doctor's saying, no, that's nothing like it at all, but if it helps. 113 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:42.539 It's obviously written by 2 Doctor Who fans. 114 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:45.299 It is absolutely written by 2 Doctor Who fans. 115 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:54.779 And I think the story is that Moffat tells, you know, when they 1st met, they were sort of skirting around each other, like, you know, lions in a cage trying to sort of suss each other out in terms of Doctor Who fan, you know, levels. 116 00:11:54.779 --> 00:11:58.139 And it's obvious that these 2 have just been watching it since forever. 117 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.779 And, you know, things like the hypercubes. 118 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:01.440 Like, it's obvious. 119 00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:05.879 I think I've seen game and talk before about his love for Trout in particular the war games. 120 00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:08.399 Like that, it's just straight from it, yeah. 121 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:09.240 Well there you go. 122 00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:09.539 Yeah. 123 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:19.980 I mean, and it's just one of those things where it doesn't need to be explained because it works perfectly within the confines 45 minutes and for a new audience, but we see it and we just go, oh my god. 124 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.600 They obviously love this show and they're making it you know, reinterpreting it for us. 125 00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:40.379 Well, yeah, the whole I'm sort of wandering around the corridors, not necessarily the horror aspect, but they're wandering around the corridors and finding another console room is, like, you know, like admittedly completely lifted from master. 126 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:48.779 Of course it is, including the little shaving mirror on top of the lashed up console that they put together in the junkyard. 127 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:55.440 I think it's worth mentioning that that was the winner of a blue Peter competition to design a TARDIS console. 128 00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:56.159 Yes. 129 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.639 I didn't know that until I did a little bit of research. 130 00:12:59.700 --> 00:13:01.379 That's so adorable and it's really cool as well. 131 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:02.279 Yeah, yeah. 132 00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:09.960 But even even the setting, like even the planet setting, the house setting is a reference to an unearthly child. 133 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:15.960 It was a deliberate reference to the 1st story. set in a junkyard. 134 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:17.340 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 135 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:21.299 So the TARDIS in a junkyard, you know, it's kind of, it's super iconic. 136 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:30.299 The other thing that I think that the story does really successfully is create a new version of the Time Lords in a way. 137 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:34.500 So Doctor Who hasn't had time lords because they've all been destroyed. 138 00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:49.799 But here we get a sense of a kind of arrangement where there are a lot of time lords flying around the place in TARDIS and, you know, they get together for sort of drinking parties or something like that. 139 00:13:49.860 --> 00:13:53.700 Like the talk about the course there, you know, being a bad girl. 140 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.179 Clearly they've been getting together and having a great time. 141 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:23.279 And so it is a kind of pre-galafray conception of the time lords in the sense that all we know about the time lords by the time the the end of the war games comes along and they're introduced properly and the show is ruined forever. is that there are time lords like the monk and the doctor who have TARDises who travel around sort of time and space doing things. 142 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.740 And so that's the version that we get. 143 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:36.419 And I love that as a way of introducing the time lords to a new series audience who haven't had to sit through Mark of Infinity or something. 144 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:41.220 Like I think that's a much, much more fun conception of what the time lords are. 145 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:54.419 And my favourite thing about the time lord, the sort of the extra time lord stuff in this one is that he does they do the best thing you can with it, which is you tease the time lords, you talk about the time lords, and then you don't bring any time lords into the show. 146 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:55.740 Don't go to California. 147 00:14:55.799 --> 00:15:00.600 And to introduce the idea of them changing gender for the 1st time. 148 00:15:00.659 --> 00:15:01.320 Is this the 1st as well? 149 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:02.159 Is this the 1st time? 150 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:02.820 Because I noticed that. 151 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:04.379 I thought it was yeah, really cool. 152 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:04.860 Yeah. 153 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:24.059 And that whole conversation about the corsair, which is fun and entertaining in itself and gives us some background into sort of Matt's character and it teaches us about the time lords, obviously becomes a plot point when we see the auntie's arm comes from the corsair and now we start to see, in fact, what's really going on here. 154 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:30.120 That part where he opens up the cupboard and it's just a bunch of those mailboxes. 155 00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:33.299 It's just so so creepy and fun. 156 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:41.580 And at the same time, I breathe a huge sigh of relief because we're not going to gala free. just, just, just, just a really wonderful moment for me. 157 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:42.120 I love that. 158 00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:45.299 Matt plays it incredibly well as well. 159 00:15:45.419 --> 00:15:52.379 Because he doesn't go the tenant route of chewing the scenery and yelling at everyone. 160 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.220 It's very calm and very kind of frightening. 161 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.580 That thing you gave me hope and took it away. 162 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:09.360 And that would make anyone dangerous, but he just says that without kind of, you know, looking hugely, visibly over the top, angry. 163 00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:13.860 Yeah, like he's, he's um, bottling it up. 164 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:16.559 It's uh, it's simmering beneath the surface. 165 00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:18.720 I think that's got to be a choice, right? 166 00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:22.740 Like to just get away from that kind of bug-eyed tenant hysteria. 167 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.080 I absolutely agree, Dan. 168 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:33.659 I think, you know, I don't know whether it's conscious or not, but the way that Matt Smith sort of naturally plays those lines and it happens again throughout, I think, his tenure, but even in this episode. 169 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:35.940 You know, Amy says to him, you want to be forgiven. 170 00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:39.659 And there's just this heartbreaking delivery where he says, don't we all? 171 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:49.440 It's such a different sort of take on the character in terms of his relationship with the, you know, what he's done to his own people and the time war. 172 00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:50.159 I think it's wonderful. 173 00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:55.799 I think he's superb, but it's also just a great, great way of distancing this 11th doctor from the 10th doctor. 174 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:09.900 I think Amy's response to that line is incredible because she clearly says yes without saying anything, like she clearly indicates that she understands where the doctor's coming from, but she just does it in a look. 175 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:17.940 And you know, people, you know, people underestimate Karen Gillen, I think, and they're wrong to do so. 176 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.539 I think she does some really very subtle acting in this one. 177 00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:27.660 I think this is probably the 1st and maybe only time I'll do Matt Smith get to do a Matt Smith one with you guys. 178 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:49.259 But yeah, because I just really, so I wrote, Amy and Rory, one of my favourite combos, I know I know Rory's not like universally popular and not everyone likes the 2 of them, but for me, they're just so, especially in this one, they are understated, and aside from that whole, like Rory ageing, getting lost in a labyrinth corridor is being controlled by an evil overmind thing, which is not my favourite part of the episode. 179 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.200 They are really, they are really good and subtle. 180 00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:55.559 And one of the things I love about Rory and Amy is they're very grounded. 181 00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:56.400 They ground the show. 182 00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:58.019 They're very, they're quite ordinary. 183 00:17:58.019 --> 00:18:07.799 Because, you know, we've had sort of Rose and Martha and people who are fabulous and excited and adventurous and they want to go out and do things and then you've got one of my favourite things. 184 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:11.579 Rory says, once we're fuelled up, we're going to go, right? 185 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:13.680 Okay, we're going to get back in the charters and go. 186 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:21.000 And that's because that's what I always, I'm always thinking whenever I watch Doctor Who, I'm like, I'm that companion who's like, can we just go back to the times? 187 00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:26.160 And this will just be a one episode story where we just go, we just leave and everything's fine. 188 00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:27.900 And I love that. 189 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:35.579 I love how ordinary Rory isn't with his like southern coast accent and his puffer jacket and yeah, they're quite good. 190 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:36.240 Sheely. 191 00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:37.380 Yeah. 192 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:40.920 I think it, I think it takes Rory to bring Amy down as well. 193 00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:45.900 Like they they are so recognisably normal and there's couples that I know that are very much, you know, have that dynamic. 194 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:55.859 But Amy's such an elevated character, a fantasy sort of manic pixie girl, and it takes Rory to bring her back to that sort of recognisable sort of dynamic that they definitely have here. 195 00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:01.680 And just going back to that line about, you know, you want to be forgiven and don't we all in Karen's reaction to that? 196 00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:13.319 I wonder whether that's also a kind of interiority on that character's part because, of course, she's now living with the guilt of having Rory wait 2000 years for her, right? 197 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.140 And I wonder whether that's in that performance as well. 198 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:21.539 I just think it was a really good idea to bring Arthur Devil on board as a regular. 199 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:22.079 I agree. 200 00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:32.400 Not least because I think him and Matt Smith know each other already, but like you can tell from this story and also I think the confidentials that we're playing at the time, you can just tell that they are having a ball. 201 00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:35.940 They're just having the best time hanging out making this ludicrous show together. 202 00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:53.400 And it really, it really shows like, I found just a couple of weeks ago when we were doing the two-part opening story, just having the 3 of them back, along with River, just made me so happy instantly. 203 00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:58.619 I do think that this crew is really amazing. 204 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.980 And I think it's for exactly the reasons that you say there, Dan. 205 00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:19.380 I think this episode, especially back in the day when this aired and I saw it for the 1st time, it just reminded me how tickled I was that the show was back and it had been back for about 5 or 6 years and it just made me sit back for a minute and giggle and I still couldn't quite believe that it was back on TV, you know, after that, or that long wait. 206 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:40.380 Should we talk about Cyran Jones as the TARDIS, or the way the TARDIS is kind of used here? 207 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:46.259 Oh, let's, I think this is a hugely interesting and fascinating aspect of this story. 208 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:57.900 It touches on so many things that, um, well, I guess it's sort of central to the way that Moffatt just tells stories, but also the way that this 11th doctor is presented as well. 209 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:18.960 And what I mean by that, in terms of the Moffat thing is that, Nathan, you've said many times before, this is a sex com writer writing for Doctor Who, and there's so many tropes that sort of come across with that, not least, the hyper-competent, incredibly intelligent, sexualised, dominant woman, which I think we get here with Saran Jones is the TARTA. 210 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.660 Some people just go to counselling. 211 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:33.599 I do love the reveal when she's saying that she stole him instead of him stealing the TARDIS. 212 00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:34.079 I love that. 213 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:41.819 Another thing I have got written, so gaming, which is like that there's sort of like that sort of creepy, crazy ballerina music playing in the background. 214 00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:47.940 I thought I thought that Clara told the doctor to steal a child. 215 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:54.539 I mean, the fact that she can't get verb tense is right and she keeps remembering things that haven't happened yet. 216 00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:56.700 I think is really quite magnificent. 217 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:11.819 There's a line earlier on about a nine-year-old trying to fix a motorcycle which has nothing to do with what's going on in the scene that it occurs in, and then she says it later when the doctor's trying to fix the TARDIS. 218 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.200 She's archived console rooms that haven't happened yet. 219 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.680 All of that stuff is really sort of tremendous. 220 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:34.740 And of course, there's the central thing around that as well, which is the reveal that the very sad word, the sad thing that she has to say, isn't goodbye, which is what we assume it is. 221 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:36.119 She actually remembers that word. 222 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.440 It's hello. 223 00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:40.799 And I just think that's actually really very good. 224 00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:46.500 And it's impossible to tell whether that's Moffat or game and because it could easily be either one of them. 225 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.299 That's so true, definitely. 226 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:49.680 And how wonderful. 227 00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:51.839 Like it obviously pays off on... 228 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:57.900 We go back to the edge of destruction, which is a car crash of a story, but what's so wonderful about it is that... 229 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:06.900 As the 3rd ever story, Whitaker establishes that the Tartars is not just a dreary prop or just a narrative method of conveyance, but actually a character. 230 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:23.819 And here at last, that character is given voice and it's really, really just gorgeous, that we have that moment where, you know, the oldest character, the 2, you know, 2 oldest characters or 2 oldest continuing characters in the show finally get to say hello. 231 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:25.079 It's just wonderful. 232 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:29.819 Isn't it as lovely how excited he is to talk to they finally get to talk to each other? 233 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:31.920 And it's it's just it's so sweet. 234 00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:39.599 The whole, the whole story is so sweet and imaginative and just the idea, I mean, going back to the, just the, the idea of putting the TARDIS in a person and having it talk and be a character. 235 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:41.460 It's just such a brilliant idea. 236 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:44.039 But at the same time, I couldn't believe that they never thought of it before. 237 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:51.539 In a way, it's something that the new series has opened up because it has a wider range of available ways of telling stories. 238 00:23:51.599 --> 00:24:00.180 And so you couldn't, I think, have done it successfully in the classic series because the classic series doesn't have that character focus that the new series has. 239 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.420 They've probably got Kamika to play. 240 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:07.200 I would like to see that. 241 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:08.160 I love it. 242 00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:13.200 I love a tide eccentric story, like whenever you get to go inside it or you learn more about it or anything like that. 243 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:21.359 But I just couldn't believe they hadn't done it before, even like in New Adventures or a book or something like that, but it's just such a simple, brilliant idea. 244 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:25.440 And they just, they just now, like we said before, they just absolutely nailed that casting. 245 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.640 They wanted to call the story bigger on the inside. 246 00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:37.619 But, um, yeah. connotations, but they went, oh, actually, that probably gives away the main plot point, doesn't it? 247 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:48.900 No, the doctor's wife is such a fun sort of, you know, nerd baiting title, but also just that maybe sort of link back to the JNT board. 248 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:56.519 I think I think it's absolutely perfect that way, but it's also, isn't it funny because it's not, I don't know, literally, this isn't literally the doctor's wife. 249 00:24:56.579 --> 00:25:07.079 I think it rather suggests the show that we've been watching, and particularly over the last 45 minutes, but maybe over the last, you know, well, 48 years at this point, should really be called the TARDIS's husband. 250 00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:09.180 And it is that line right at the end. 251 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:11.339 What makes you think I would ever give you back? 252 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.720 Like she says, it's just wonderful. absolutely superb. 253 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.339 It is wonderful. 254 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:22.859 And like you said before, obviously written by the lifelong Doctor Who fans, they get to the doctor in his title is fine. 255 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:28.740 I get to have a conversation and basically tell each other they love each other at the end of they get they get teary. 256 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:32.400 It is kind of self-indulgent, but it's just really, really, really lovely and touching. 257 00:25:32.460 --> 00:26:04.980 There's an effortlessness to the way that he reinterprets the entire program, the premise of the entire program now gets turned on its head in a way that doesn't spoil anything that doesn't kind of require radical reinterpretations of the show, although it permits them, like the idea that the TARDIS gets the doctor to wear a good story is going to happen. you know, like we knew that, but now here it is sort of presented as part of the show. 258 00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:08.279 Yeah, they do it without like a nerd angering retcon. 259 00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:09.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 260 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:10.079 Yeah. 261 00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:11.880 Very deft, very yeah. 262 00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:13.500 He'll do it again. 263 00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:19.079 I think in things like listen or even in, you know, the 50th anniversary special. 264 00:26:19.140 --> 00:26:30.119 It is something that he's able to do that he's able to look at what happens in the show, produce a different interpretation of it, and still leave the show intact. 265 00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:34.859 It's what's the point of a good idea if you can't reuse at least 2 or 3 times. 266 00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:39.839 Sometimes, you know, just a season apart. 267 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.000 Yeah. 268 00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:47.759 But also to use them in a way that is conciliatory or at least, you know, there's kisses to the past. 269 00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:52.920 You know, there's this sort of wonderful love for the program, what it was, what it is and what it can be and will be. 270 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:57.720 And it's also another way in which, in addition to it being just really super meta. 271 00:26:57.779 --> 00:27:04.619 Um, it's tied in with those glorious, um, you know, beautiful sort of emotions that underscore it as well. 272 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:10.799 It's, for me, it's probably one of those top 10 new who episodes where the fields far outweigh the plot. 273 00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:12.119 Like, I don't really care. 274 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:15.539 Nathan, you've said many times before about the bliz-bloss and all the rest of it. 275 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:31.259 Like what this actually is, I feel, is a perfectly shaped, and maybe even deceptively simple story, because it has been refined so much by Moffat and Game, and who I do think are geniuses, you know, in much the same way perhaps that a Terence Dix storyline seems so effortlessly simple. 276 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:43.920 And I think it's really for all of those reasons that, you know, the sort of kisses to the past, the emotion led character led narrative, which is still very much recognisably a classic Doctor Who kind of field story. 277 00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:48.660 Um, and, you know, a 1000 other grace notes, I think, that this story continually strikes. 278 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:58.440 Like, I really couldn't possibly care less at the resolution to such a highly lauded script by 2 genius writers is literally a dais in Makina. 279 00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:00.299 I just don't care. 280 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:09.599 So let's just talk about that because I do think that it is very, very thin in certain ways. 281 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:18.539 And we complained last week about the way that the curse of the black spot kind of fails to resolve into anything of any value at the end. 282 00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:34.859 So here we shunt Amy and Rory off to a side plot, which looks incredibly cheap and a little bit played and actually kind of unpleasant to watch as well, I think. 283 00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:36.720 Really, really nasty. 284 00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:42.720 You know, there were like, there were extra scenes where like Rory got trapped in the 0 room. 285 00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:53.519 And Amy ended up in the Tartar swimming pool, but they got rid of the Amy in the pool scene because she couldn't swim. 286 00:28:54.059 --> 00:29:01.920 And because it costs money unlike those sort of dreadful Tartis corridors. 287 00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:12.240 I would have happily had them doing a wandering around an old hospital income art gallery. 288 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.940 I do. 289 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:15.539 Why not? 290 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:16.559 It can look like anything. 291 00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:19.740 The corridor parts are pretty drudgy. 292 00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:26.880 They're not my favourite, but I do really like something they do often in Newhu, where they make the, they just make the Tartis scary. 293 00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:31.200 There's like 2 ways where they just turn the lights off and it's such a simple thing. 294 00:29:31.259 --> 00:29:42.119 They do it at the very start of the episode and then again when the when Michael Sheen takes over, um, and they just turn the lights off and it's like a dark TARDIS with no power is just inherently scary because it just never happens. 295 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:49.799 And then they diffuse the whole thing with a green glow and they make the TARDIS menacing. 296 00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:56.400 I just really, really enjoyed that. you know, I like the idea of Michael Sheen watching people run around corridors. 297 00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.279 You can watch me run corridors anytime. 298 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.480 Well, we've been doing that with Doctor Who for 50 years, so... 299 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:04.680 Yeah, that's it. 300 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.640 We need space corridors again for the 2nd week in a row. 301 00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:21.660 And then I do think that it's a little bit of a shame that there are basically no obstacles, you know, the plan just goes completely according to plan. 302 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.160 We build a TARDIS. 303 00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:24.779 It lands in the other TARDIS. 304 00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:26.279 It lands on nephew. 305 00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:27.660 How can we do this really cheaply? 306 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:30.599 Telepathy with just let it tell telepathy with you with Rory. 307 00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:31.380 Rory just gets it. 308 00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:32.279 He knows what to do. 309 00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:35.220 He just does it. is so quick, isn't it? 310 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:36.960 You get that as wonderful lines. 311 00:30:37.019 --> 00:30:39.240 It's like, you know, like the cute one. 312 00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:41.819 No, the pretty one? 313 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:42.420 pretty one. 314 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.380 But again, those images. 315 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:48.059 So what was it? 316 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.759 Crimson 11 Delight Petrochor. 317 00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:59.579 And that's so similar to the way that the Tartars communicates with them in edge of destruction, just by showing a series of images. 318 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:06.299 So it does make sense with, we know the TARDIS has a telepathic kind of field or whatever. 319 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:07.859 So I don't mind that. 320 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:14.339 I think that that kind of plays on the mythology, but it is all just a little bit easy and a little bit straightforward. 321 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:21.900 I kind of love how that's actually, it's the show fulfilling its original educational remit. 322 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:26.339 It's teaching people what the word metrical means. 323 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:27.779 That's how I learned. 324 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:31.619 And it'll become very, very valuable in episode 12, I think. 325 00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:36.839 Petrochord, is it, like, is Petrochord is an Australian? 326 00:31:36.900 --> 00:31:37.440 word? 327 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:43.380 Like it's as in, it's a word that was 1st used to describe that smell by an Australian scientist. 328 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:44.460 Oh, okay. 329 00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:52.619 It's the smell of, you know, the smell of water on dry earth in the outback. 330 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.339 Yeah, no, now available at a perfume counter near you. 331 00:31:56.819 --> 00:31:57.420 Duty-free. 332 00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:01.380 You were saying before about like a thin plot. 333 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:06.539 It's really just a good idea with a bunch of great dialogue and some good casting around it. 334 00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:15.599 And then they kind of, I guess they have to beef up the episode and you end up with these, the corridors, which, I feel like I can just, you can forgive because the rest of it's just so good. 335 00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:20.220 It is just, I did find myself when they were in the corridors with old Rory. 336 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:36.779 I was just like, I just remember, I felt like I was shouting at the team, you're like, get back to the, get back to the love in, because it's just like, all those climactic, all the climactic stuff when they're, um, the doctor and the TARDIS are, you know, flying through the vortex, like without a shell and they're just like yelling at each other and having a great time. 337 00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.299 Then they just keep cutting back to Amy and Rory. 338 00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:40.980 And I'm like, no, no, take me back. 339 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:47.099 Maybe it doesn't have like the full confidence to not be a Doctor Who episode. 340 00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:49.980 And that's a problem with Doctor Who, I think. 341 00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:59.339 It's like Power of 3 or Boomtown or something where all of the things that aren't the Doctor Who episode are vastly more fun than the things that are. 342 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:07.619 And here I think we could have afforded to have a few less space corridors and a few and a bit less of a Doctor Who story going on. 343 00:33:07.619 --> 00:33:10.200 And that would have been more entertaining, I think. 344 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.319 It could have, but I'm not sure I particularly mind. 345 00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:16.740 Like, and I know I say this as someone who loves Castra Valver. 346 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:31.980 So it's not going to maybe carry too much weight, but those corridor scenes, the creepiness, all the rest of it, it kind of does found it in a Doctor Who nurse that maybe doesn't alienate, you know, as many viewers as maybe it probably could have in introducing essentially the doctor's wife, right? 347 00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:36.480 And I feel like Doctor Who, I think Richard said this before many times on the pod in the past. 348 00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:41.039 Doctor Who is best when it does something else, but it's still Doctor Who doing those things. 349 00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:42.779 And I feel like that's what it does here. 350 00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:47.640 Yes, the plot is really thin, but isn't it also thin in city of death? 351 00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:49.500 It's not about necessarily the plot. 352 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:56.400 It's about just how wonderful a ride it is across the duration of the episode and that's really what really works here for me. 353 00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:12.059 I guess it's a way of showing how essential Idris's character, the matrix of the TARDIS, the soul of the TARDIS, to the TARDIS being a sort of friendly, safe environment, like once she's gone from there. 354 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:14.460 Yeah, making the tide is scary. 355 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:15.300 It just always works for me. 356 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:24.300 I really like it. a dead, a dead TARDIS, a dark TARDIS, or when the TARDIS disappears, and it's separated from the doctor, that's just inherently scary to me because it just doesn't happen very often. 357 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:31.380 I guess for me, the problem is the kind of implication that Rory is suffering for prolonged periods of time. 358 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.079 I just find sort of deeply unpleasant, I think. 359 00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:38.579 Yeah, nah, it's just sort of nasty and yeah, Rory's a punching bag again. 360 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:42.599 I like that they give them a bit of agency with the that sort of telepathy and the... 361 00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:43.679 I didn't read it that way. 362 00:34:43.739 --> 00:35:05.639 Like, I think you're supposed to read it that way in the, in the initial sort of moments, you're supposed to think, oh, he's trapped, again, for, ah, you know, 1000s of years or whatever, slowly dying and hating Amy, but then that's just house screwing with her head because he just pops around the corner the next moment. 363 00:35:05.699 --> 00:35:12.480 So they, like, they set that up and then defuse it immediately going, well, no, actually we're not doing that to him this time. 364 00:35:12.539 --> 00:35:14.400 Well, except that we see it. 365 00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:15.360 Do you know what I mean? 366 00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:17.039 It doesn't matter whether it really happened or not. 367 00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:17.579 Guess what? 368 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:20.460 of it actually happened. weekend to see it, though. 369 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:26.219 I did laugh and I really did really enjoy that sort of corridor covered in graffiti with a skeleton in the middle. 370 00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:27.539 I did really enjoy that. 371 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:28.320 It was quite fun. 372 00:35:41.820 --> 00:36:01.679 So, I just want to go back to that issue of the doctor's relationship with relationships, really, and the topic of your sexuality, or even asexuality, particularly for this 11th doctor, who, you know, doesn't quite get it right. and it sort of indicates that this isn't as a sort of romantic lead as perhaps tenants doctor was. 373 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:17.099 And I feel like that there's always that tension in Moffat stories, particularly with the 11th doctor, that straddles the line between that sort of, you know, very early 2010s hetero lattishness, which really is Moffat stock in trade, but also was very zeitgeist at the time. 374 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.239 And also his, at the same time, utterly alien asexuality. 375 00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:23.639 You know, at the end he talks about bunk beds, a bed with a ladder. 376 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.019 You can't beat that. 377 00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:31.559 Like, just sort of, you know, showing just how clueless he actually is in this regard. 378 00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:42.539 Or rather a sexuality, maybe, that we can't possibly fathom in full, in the same way that even the doctor can't fathom time in the same way that the Tartars can perceive of time. 379 00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.320 There's this sort of alienness about him. 380 00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:48.059 Like, obviously he has a sexuality. 381 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:53.639 Moffat said many times he has a granddaughter in as an answer to the question of, you know, does a doctor have sex, basically. 382 00:36:53.699 --> 00:36:59.579 So he's not sort of shying away from it, but he's, he reinterprets it and we, you know, obviously see it later. 383 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:06.840 I think Missy in the season 9 opener sort of, you know, talks about his companions being like the dog in the couple. 384 00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:24.059 And I feel like that's just like a really clever having it both ways. like Moffatt being someone who can just sort of, you know, produce this ambiguous depiction of the doctor's sexuality, which is at one time, you know, quite lettish and hetero, as I say, but also at the other, just utterly alien. 385 00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:26.880 And that kind of works for me, and I'm not sure whether it works for everyone else. 386 00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:37.440 I have said before that I think that both of Moffatt's doctors are him in the way that both of RTDs doctors are him as well. 387 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:53.340 Like, RTD's doctors are a facade of sort of jolliness and being charming and being likeable over a core of kind of cynicism and sort of self-hatred. 388 00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:54.719 And I think that that's Russell. 389 00:37:54.780 --> 00:38:06.960 And I think Moffatt's doctor is a kind of clueless manchild who likes being bossed around by other people and who secretly suspects. 390 00:38:07.019 --> 00:38:10.559 Yeah, by strong women. and who secretly suspects he's a bad person. 391 00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:21.900 And I think that the asexuality is playing up that manchildness because the asexuality often manifests itself as just being childish, like the bunk beds. 392 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:27.659 You know, a 10 year old loves bunk beds because a 10 year old only conceives of beds as a place to sleep. 393 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:46.260 And so I do think that that's what you get with Matt Smith's doctor that he is actually kind of unpleasant in all sorts of ways, like and often quite unlikeable, despite the sort of jolly exterior. 394 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:49.800 But his incompetence. 395 00:38:49.860 --> 00:39:00.000 You know, the way that River comes in, just a few weeks ago, River again demonstrates how much better she is at Flying the TARDIS than he is. 396 00:39:00.059 --> 00:39:11.519 No one else would have dared ever to suggest that in the history of Doctor Who, but Moffatt does because Moffatt himself is a little bit of a man child and is kind of aware of. 397 00:39:11.579 --> 00:39:18.780 And she's constantly being like confusing him and embarrassing him by being sexy at him in close proximity. 398 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:31.619 I do think that there's I think there's a bit where it's somewhere, maybe it's in the Smith's 1st season. someone offers him alcohol and he takes a sip and then just spits it straight back out and it's... 399 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.460 Again, he did that 3 weeks ago in the Impossible Astronaut. 400 00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:36.480 I love that. so simple. 401 00:39:36.539 --> 00:39:39.719 It's like you don't have to explain why he doesn't drink or they don't have to... 402 00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:48.059 They don't really have to explain his sexuality because he's a 1000 year old alien and it should be something that we probably can't understand or conceive of. 403 00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.000 Like they do with that missy episode down the line, which I do. 404 00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:52.380 I just love that conversation they have. 405 00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:53.880 It's brilliant. 406 00:39:53.940 --> 00:40:09.960 But, yeah, I just think, uh, I'd like they sort of toyed with, uh, companion fancies the doctor a 3rd time with Amy earlier on, and I'm so glad they got past it and got, because it's just been so done, um, and and done, done clumsily, I think. 407 00:40:10.019 --> 00:40:22.079 And I'm glad that they seem to just have like, now, not taken a stand, but like staked a position out that that's probably not going to happen with this doctor because he's, uh, he's a weird 1000 year old alien and he's just not not into it. 408 00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:23.099 He's just not that into you. 409 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:31.199 I like to think that, like, you know, um, River and the 11th doctor never, never consummated their relationship. 410 00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:34.019 That didn't happen. 411 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.420 And until Capaldi is the doctor. 412 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:36.780 I agree. 413 00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:42.360 Like they spend 24 years together on... 414 00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:45.480 Yeah, like, like, I kind of like that conception. 415 00:40:45.659 --> 00:40:50.820 Yeah, Matt Smith does seem like with River Song. he's got a girlfriend that he doesn't know what to do with. 416 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:56.699 Like a, like, when you get a girlfriend, when you're in, like, in primary school, you just don't know what to do with them. 417 00:40:56.820 --> 00:40:57.960 Like, you know? 418 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:15.840 So, originally this episode, like the introductory scene, um, that became the Tartar scene, uh, at the beginning of this episode, were set on the Planet of the Raincords. 419 00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:24.539 Um, and the the hypercube turned up and and interrupted them being sacrificed. 420 00:41:24.539 --> 00:41:26.460 Just some rainbows. 421 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:29.340 And it was just cheaper to have it knock on the door. 422 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:32.639 Well exactly. like that I did so much. 423 00:41:32.699 --> 00:41:42.719 He rewrote it for the doctor and river, like as a mini, a mini episode that they used on, like, yeah, they released on the series 7 box set. 424 00:41:42.780 --> 00:41:43.619 Oh really? 425 00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.079 I do, I do, it's quite fabulous. 426 00:41:46.139 --> 00:41:55.980 I do love that. another tiny little idea that's just nothing and it's just a quick thing, but like the idea of someone knocking on the knocking on the TARDIS door in deep space is just so fun and silly. 427 00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:59.639 It's quite quick and they go past it quickly, but they do enjoy it. 428 00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:02.639 Like, the doctor's like, someone's knocking on the door. 429 00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:03.179 It's great. 430 00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:03.840 Who's it gonna be? 431 00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:04.380 What's so good? 432 00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:06.659 It's a continuity range. 433 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:34.980 Well, they listener, that's all we have time for this week. 434 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:41.820 We'll be back next week for some timely lessons in workplace health and safety in the rebel flesh. 435 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:57.780 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody into terror. 436 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:05.400 Until next time, may you find a man who looks at you the way the doctor looks at that helmet regulator. 437 00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:08.280 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 438 00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:09.780 Good night. 439 00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:10.920 Be seeing you. 440 00:43:10.980 --> 00:43:12.659 Good night, beautiful idiots. 441 00:43:17.340 --> 00:43:23.579 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Stephen, B, and Dan from New to Who, and James Selwood. 442 00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:25.260 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 443 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:30.960 This episode, nerd baiting title, was recorded on the 8th of August 2021 and released on the 3rd of October. 444 00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:44.460 You know that recurring nightmare you have where the soul of your beloved Prius is placed in the body of Siran Jones, who then comes over to your house and beats the crap out of you for all those times you crashed her into other cars. 445 00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:46.619 Just knee? 446 00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:47.699 Bye for now. 447 00:43:53.760 --> 00:44:17.400 I thought you were gonna talk about the, um, the little thing at the start, which I've never seen in Doctor Who before, which I forgot it even happened, that there's like a little bit of a recap where I don't know if it happened at the time or if it's just something on when I watched it just now on a streaming service, where it's like Amy's just doing a little recap of previous, not previous on the doctor, but like, uh, a man came and took me away and now we're travelling through time and space, blah, blah, blah. 448 00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:17.820 Yeah. 449 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:22.980 So it's not on the DVDs, but it is on the streaming versions that we have. 450 00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:24.239 So I was watching on the stand. 451 00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:25.500 It's on series 5 as well. 452 00:44:25.619 --> 00:44:30.420 And I think it is an attempt to kind of make the show accessible to an American audience in particular. 453 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:39.420 Well, I, because I thought, because I thought it was, it was a little trite, but I did really, I did quite enjoy it and it did make me think, like, if they did, if they did it, did they do it at the time? 454 00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:43.260 Yeah, but not when they showed it on the BBC, I don't think. 455 00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:43.679 James? 456 00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:44.099 No. 457 00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:45.119 Just in America. 458 00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:50.699 I think maybe we did get some episodes on the ABC. 459 00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:57.300 They did it with, and I think maybe, you know, Australian Doctor Who fans, Australian Doctor Who fans. 460 00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:58.559 There were lots of complaints. 461 00:44:58.619 --> 00:45:00.179 Oh, ruining my break. 462 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:03.960 I don't need this explained to me, I'm not an American. 463 00:45:04.019 --> 00:45:22.139 That's annoying because it does seem silly and unnecessary, but then, like, you remember, like, in the classic era, one of the mistakes they made when they got by the time they got to the 80s, they didn't, they forgot that their fans had sort of children had aged up and left the show and they weren't making an attempt to, like, bring in 2 kids. 464 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:28.619 And this is just this is just one of the things they do with this doctor to kind of appeal to to new kids. 465 00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:31.199 But it's just a tiny thing, like a little recap. 466 00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:33.179 If you're a kid, you've never seen it before. 467 00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:35.219 You're immediately up to speed as much as you need to be. 468 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:37.199 And I just thought it was a really cool little thing. 469 00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:40.320 I don't care what the Australia is. what the nerds think. 470 00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:41.940 I'm not plugged into fan. 471 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:42.719 None of us jumped. 472 00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:45.659 We didn't jump into Doctor Who from the beginning. 473 00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:46.440 Do you know what I mean? 474 00:45:46.500 --> 00:45:49.079 All of us kind of rocked up at some point in the middle of it. 475 00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:51.900 And in fact, series 5 is a great starting point. 476 00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:54.539 You wouldn't want to never go back and watch the earliest seasons. 477 00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:55.559 Do you know what I mean? 478 00:45:55.619 --> 00:45:59.940 Because they're all sort of, well, that's like a personal trainer. 479 00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:04.199 But, but, you know, like I think it's a pretty good start. 480 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:10.260 I think that Matt Smith here is pretty, you can, like, if you're a kid, you could probably jump in anywhere and be fine. 481 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:11.639 Yeah, yeah. 482 00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:13.980 Yeah, it's not an accident. 483 00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:19.139 This is the series and the doctor that broke the broke into the American market through BBC America. absolutely. 484 00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:28.079 And again, again, it's one of those seasons where with the arc where it's got, like, sure, it has a season arc, but most episodes, it's like 10 seconds at the end. 485 00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:29.340 They're like, oh, put the arc thing in. 486 00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:34.860 Just put the, you know, put them under of Amy's pregnant thing and the doctor's like, well, no, remember the arc? 487 00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:35.400 Oh, boy. 488 00:46:35.460 --> 00:46:36.719 And then it's the end. 489 00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:38.579 Well, don't we start with that this week? 490 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:41.219 We actually start with a discussion of having seen the doctor die. 491 00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:41.940 Yeah, that's right. 492 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:42.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 493 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:53.760 This season's so all over the place in my memory because I didn't, I don't think I watched it all at the time and then I watched it later and it's all out of sequence in my head, but to be fair, series 6 is all over the place. 494 00:46:54.179 --> 00:46:58.920 You had something, Stephen, about a YouTube interview? 495 00:46:58.980 --> 00:47:00.059 Oh, yeah. 496 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:02.639 So, I mean, this is probably just something that you can put as a tag. 497 00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:07.139 But I don't know, but I don't know if you gents have seen it. 498 00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:14.280 It's actually from something called the Hay Festival in 2017, back before, you know, life was good and we weren't locked down. 499 00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:18.480 And it's an interview panel interview on stage with Neil Gaiman and Stephen Fry. 500 00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:19.500 It's called the Mythmakers. 501 00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:20.219 It's really wonderful. 502 00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:30.000 But, uh, you know, towards the end where they get the inevitable questions from the audience, what one lady asks, have you ever felt like a god, uh, they were talking about gods the whole time. 503 00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:41.280 And the gamer's response to this was something along the lines of the closest that I've ever felt to feeling like a god is when I sat down and wrote interior Tartus console. 504 00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:47.099 And I just think that was just such a beautiful answer and just speaks again to how much of a fan, a super fan he is of the show. 505 00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:52.500 So I wonder whether one day he won't actually be sort of like the Netflix show runner for Doctor Who. 506 00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.440 That would be something. 507 00:47:55.500 --> 00:47:56.699 That'll be something. 508 00:47:56.699 --> 00:47:58.619 He can't get my favourite. to see one. 509 00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.679 He's so busy making all the other BBC. 510 00:48:02.940 --> 00:48:04.500 All right. 511 00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:08.159 Let's let's do an outro, I think. 512 00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:10.559 I think we've got, I think we've sorted. 513 00:48:10.619 --> 00:48:11.340 Yeah. 514 00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:12.239 All right, here goes. 515 00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:13.380 Are you ready? 516 00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:20.579 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. 517 00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:25.079 We'll be back next week for some timely lessons in workplace. 518 00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:30.420 I'm so, I'm really excited to be on the flight for retarity, Gabriel. 519 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:31.320 Let me just say.