WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:07:08 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:46.439 Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that woke up from that storm an hour ago with literally no idea who we are. 2 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:48.359 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:49.679 I'm Pisa. 4 00:00:49.740 --> 00:00:55.619 I'm Simon, and I'm Dosty Springfield, extruded through a PVC ag pipe for this episode. 5 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.740 Well, it's the 22nd century. 6 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:01.920 We're on a small island, possibly off the coast of Kent. 7 00:01:01.979 --> 00:01:09.420 No one knows if they are who they think they are, and a simple demarkation dispute is about to turn homicidal. 8 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:14.700 So let's see what happens when we come face to face with the rebel flesh. 9 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:37.319 Can we start this week by talking about the teaser? 10 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:43.859 Because I actually think this teaser does a very good job of establishing what the episode is about. 11 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:45.659 Yes, absolutely. 12 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:50.700 It gets straight in there and you're immediately asking, well, wait a minute, how does this work? 13 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:56.400 They're also casual about this guy being, you know, falling into the acid vat and dissolving into nothing. 14 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:58.200 And then, you know, he appears a moment later. 15 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:02.519 And so it gets us asking those questions as well as being a kind of an exciting sequence. 16 00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:15.599 I think too, the fact that it ends, because always the most important part of a teaser is the very final shot, and the final shot is the face, and it looks like a screaming face, dissolving in the acid. 17 00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:26.460 And so already the sort of idea that there's something wrong about the sort of casualness with which they treat this, you know, what looks like an industrial accident. 18 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:42.180 I think it's really quite effective, but also start, as you mean to go on, I think the direction lets it down slightly, um, right from the off, because you have the, uh, the bit where Jen pushes the other guy in, and she keeps saying after that, I never touched you. 19 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.039 I took a swing, but she did. 20 00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:46.319 She clearly pushed him and he stumbled. 21 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:47.819 And I don't think she's meant to be lying. 22 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:51.120 I think it's confused direction and we'll see more of that as the episodes go on. 23 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:56.699 Oh, I read that as Jen being just a little bit too fast and loose for everybody's own good. 24 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:58.020 Maybe. 25 00:02:58.020 --> 00:03:04.560 I think there is another problem with the direction, which is that you don't get a clear look at Buzz's face. 26 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:16.020 And so when he turns up, it takes a 2nd before you realise that the person who's turned up is the person who just dissolved in the acid. 27 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:18.419 So you haven't got a clear look at his face. 28 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:26.460 And I also think the fact that his name is Buzzer is a problem too, because when Jen says it. 29 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:29.159 Firstly, she says it with a northern accent. 30 00:03:29.219 --> 00:03:35.280 But secondly, she sounds like she's talking about a bit of equipment that, you know, needs some attention or something. 31 00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:37.680 Has anyone seen me comforter? 32 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:38.819 I mean, me also. 33 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:40.199 Yes, no, it sorted. 34 00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:45.000 I mean, all these characters start off as a collection of irritating accents and they just go from there. 35 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:48.719 We're not talking about new Doctor Who. 36 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:49.500 No, we are. 37 00:03:49.500 --> 00:03:53.580 But that's a problem as well. 38 00:03:53.639 --> 00:04:02.340 And that is one of the major problems of the episode, I think, is that the characters just aren't quite clearly drawn enough. 39 00:04:03.060 --> 00:04:07.680 Yeah, I mean, each character is so briefly sketched, I think. 40 00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:10.500 I mean, you can attach a one word description to each of them. 41 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:12.479 So Cleaves is like world weary. 42 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:16.620 Jimmy is Scottish and maybe loves badly acted son. 43 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.319 Jen, Jenny's Australian. 44 00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:22.620 Yes, he seems to be Australian, right? 45 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:29.519 Jenny's meek. and, you know, with the inability to say Rory without emphasising 2 syllables. 46 00:04:29.579 --> 00:04:30.120 Rory. 47 00:04:30.180 --> 00:04:31.920 And Buzzer and the other guy. 48 00:04:31.980 --> 00:04:33.839 I can't even tell anyone. 49 00:04:33.899 --> 00:04:35.699 Yes, it's extremely annoying. 50 00:04:35.939 --> 00:04:42.480 And so, yeah, I think there's a problem with these characters in that, um, there's actually not much to them. 51 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:53.459 I actually watched this ages ago because I watched all of sort of Amy and Rory's episodes in preparation for doing series 5 on the podcast. 52 00:04:53.459 --> 00:05:03.540 And when I watched it then, and perhaps I wasn't sufficiently attentive, I have to admit that I didn't know how many people were on the base by the end of the episode. 53 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:10.439 And I think the problem is Dickon, who is a person with literally no discernable characteristics at all. 54 00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:19.439 I kept calling him turning during the episode because I couldn't remember his real name. because he does nothing apart from dicking around. 55 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:45.060 And when you compare it to something like the Impossible Planet or um, Waters of Mars or something like that, where you have, you know, well-drawn characters who are diverse and sort of interesting and seem to be sort of very well sketched, I think these ones come up short, and I don't think they're helped by putting everyone in yellow jumpsuits as well. 56 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:50.879 Yeah, I agree that they're not particularly well-created characters. 57 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:59.040 In fact, one of the problems I had was knowing, not so much who was who because that's sort of pretty obvious, but in terms of knowing what everyone's names are. 58 00:05:59.100 --> 00:06:10.920 I remember Jennifer, because Jen is mentioned over and over again, but and again, maybe it was the Northern accent thing, but it took me a while to work out that one of the characters was called Buzz, or Buzz, whatever it was. 59 00:06:10.980 --> 00:06:16.439 So I do get that, and certainly the characters in something like Waters of Mars or Impossible Planet. 60 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:26.639 They're definitely better, but I don't think that that's what they're particularly caring about when they're putting this story together. 61 00:06:26.699 --> 00:06:35.639 I think they're wanting to do something which focusses on, you know, the concept and focusses on the, the, the, kind of the horror nature of it. 62 00:06:35.699 --> 00:06:36.420 And so yeah, you're right. 63 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.399 The characters, the characterisations to get to. 64 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:39.180 Why not do both? 65 00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:40.259 Well, why not indeed? 66 00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:43.740 And I'm not saying that it's excusable. 67 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.800 I'm just saying that it's less important than it might be. 68 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:58.620 I actually think it's incredibly important because the whole thing is about identity and whether these new people that we have created are us or not. 69 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:04.620 And so I think the whole thing would benefit enormously from having more interesting, better drawn characters. 70 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.040 I think the person who comes off best is Cleaves. 71 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.579 Because she has the most rounded character in the most line. 72 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:30.600 Yeah, yes. and you can feel the truncate, and you know the cast was twice as big in the original writing and too expensive, and that Matthew Graham had to cut all of that because it just felt like a, I think it was even Stephen Moffatt at the end, said it just felt like a spaghetti factory of pasta shapes. running about at the end. 73 00:07:30.779 --> 00:07:38.339 You end up with that Warriors of the deep situation where you've just got a dozen extraneous characters where you think, what are all these people doing? 74 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:41.519 They did have lovely disco jumpsuits in that one. 75 00:07:41.819 --> 00:07:43.560 Yes, yes. 76 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:44.759 Yes. 77 00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:55.079 I mean, I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't have been better had we had sort of more interesting and well-rounded characters, but I suppose what I'm saying is that it didn't prevent me from enjoying what I was watching. 78 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.959 The consistent eye-level direction. 79 00:07:58.019 --> 00:08:00.660 I agree with you, both really let it down for me too. 80 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:02.459 You're in a very interesting location. 81 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:14.459 There's no space corridors, though, for once, and I'm disappointed that I was just getting flat 5 foot 10 linear shots constantly of the actors' faces. 82 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:24.899 I would have liked to have seen some, you could have created a lot of drama just with some more interesting angle shots and particularly kinetic shots as the actors are moving about. 83 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:26.100 What did you think about that? 84 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:30.180 I couldn't think of a single close-up in the story. 85 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:30.959 I tried. 86 00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:31.860 I was on the lookout for them. 87 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.120 I didn't see a single closeup. 88 00:08:33.179 --> 00:08:38.820 It was very, it was very flat medium close-ups or distant shots for the entire thing. 89 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:44.100 Yeah, I found that kind of doll to watch, especially considering what out could have been. was nicely lit. 90 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.480 I do think they got that right and I know they're time poor. 91 00:08:48.539 --> 00:08:51.779 But we're skirting around what this is actually about, aren't we? 92 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:58.679 Well, let's get on to that because I actually do want to talk about the look of it a little bit 1st if that's possible. 93 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:04.620 What you say, Richard, about the location is that it is much more interesting. 94 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:10.259 There's a proper attempt to make it something more than just another space base. 95 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:11.519 It's not inferno. 96 00:09:11.580 --> 00:09:14.159 It's not, you know, we're we're not. 97 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:18.240 No, it's disappointing for you. a lot of space reasons. 98 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:19.679 Disappointing for me. 99 00:09:19.740 --> 00:09:31.019 And, you know, the idea that it's a monastery mining acid for the army is so weird and kind of, it's like a Cluto game. going to be in the monastery. 100 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.120 Money acid. for the army. 101 00:09:33.179 --> 00:09:38.519 But I actually think that that's kind of fun and interesting, and I love that the acid's not explained. 102 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:40.860 We've got no idea what it's for or why it's here. 103 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:41.580 What it does. 104 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:42.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 105 00:09:42.899 --> 00:09:51.779 And it just runs through pipes along the corridor. centuries of embittered religiosity soaking through the stones. the cause of it. 106 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:53.639 That's it. 107 00:09:53.700 --> 00:10:01.019 You know, I think the tone meeting for this episode was meant to be Gothic and understated, but instead we got washed out and dreary. 108 00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:02.220 How did that happen? 109 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:03.779 I can't say it's dreary. 110 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:04.679 That's ridiculous. 111 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:06.600 I really have. 112 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.860 Has anyone seen the Russian Hamlet of, was it the late 60s? 113 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:16.019 I haven't seen that. remember it? 114 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.519 It's shot in what we assume is Elson or Castle. 115 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:23.519 And it's gorgeous. 116 00:10:23.580 --> 00:10:28.799 It doesn't matter that, in fact, I think it helps that it's in Russian because, you know, you know the story anyway. 117 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:30.840 You can hear the inflections. 118 00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:33.840 But it does look beautiful, but everything is an angle shot. 119 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:38.639 And there are whole long shots of the water rising against the rocks and rising against the cliffs. 120 00:10:38.700 --> 00:10:45.659 I would have liked to have seen more than just a conflagration of somebody's Photoshop page against the backdrop. 121 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:54.059 I know they're time poor, but I really think this could have been the most richly visual story of the season with very little technical requisites in it. 122 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.759 You could have just pointed the camera at all the interesting things going on. 123 00:10:56.820 --> 00:11:08.340 I think that we have a problem where this 2 parter means that we have 4 fairly kind of dark and dreary looking episodes in a row. 124 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:14.039 I just kind of think, let's turn the lights up somewhere for a change or do you remember the colour green? 125 00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:15.899 I love that, you know? 126 00:11:15.899 --> 00:11:18.659 That's right. 127 00:11:18.659 --> 00:11:20.279 I made exactly the same note, Nathan. 128 00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:21.179 It's funny. 129 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:29.220 It's just this string of gray murky nighttime stories and it saps the season's energy as surely as that string of night shoots did in David Tennant. 130 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.700 I don't have a problem with that, though. 131 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.639 I think it adds to the sort of the overall dark flavour of it. 132 00:11:35.700 --> 00:11:50.820 Yeah, I just think there's a sort of sameness and we commented on the curse of the black spot episode where we make the choice to exchange an exciting pirate ship for some pretty dreary space corridors about halfway through. 133 00:11:50.879 --> 00:12:06.059 And I do think that, you know, the locations do look great, but there is a kind of washed out flatness to the whole thing, which I think actually ends up making it a bit less fun. 134 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.960 I think flatness is the wrong word. 135 00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:10.980 Colourless. 136 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:11.279 Yes. 137 00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:17.399 I think it's drained of colour and I think that's fine because it does make a change. 138 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:24.960 I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on in the impossible astronaut. two-parter and so on and yeah, you're right. 139 00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:32.700 Look, maybe it's just the accidental nature of having consecutive episodes that are like this rather than anything deliberate. 140 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:34.860 And at the time it's realised it's too late. 141 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:40.019 And I'm kind of, I kind of forgive that kind of thing, even though I take your point. 142 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:42.840 I'm fine with monochromatic Doctor Who. 143 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:44.759 Yes. 144 00:12:44.820 --> 00:12:49.559 Yeah, we had those so many years there with hardly any colour in them. 145 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.539 Is that the reason that all the episodes of the Dominators looks the same? 146 00:12:55.139 --> 00:13:09.419 I think being set in a series of murky chambers kind of undoes the story a little bit and undermines the direction because in a doppelganger story, it's paramount that you'd be really clear which set of characters you're with and where you are. 147 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:14.279 And I think the fact that all of the chambers look the same undoes that and makes it confusing. 148 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:17.759 No, but it isn't the point that we can't tell the difference. 149 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:20.220 So we might not be able to tell the difference between the 2 of them. 150 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:27.179 So in some respects, dressing them all in the same kind of hive these inspired sort of outfits. communicates that more. 151 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.220 We don't want to know who to. 152 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:30.779 And then we have the acid suits. 153 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:31.980 That's nice to start with. 154 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:36.840 And the same way is, you know, it's nice that we don't know Cleaves is the gang of Cleaves at the start. 155 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.200 But then it just becomes confusing as you go on. 156 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:42.840 It's just like, it's almost with now. and who am I looking at? 157 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:47.100 If it's confusing, in a particular instance, it's meant to be confusing. 158 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:51.600 We are meant to not be sure whether this is the real or whether this is the ganger. 159 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:53.700 Organic. 160 00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:55.679 Does that make for a satisfying viewing experience? 161 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:57.480 Absolutely. 162 00:13:57.539 --> 00:13:58.559 That's the whole point. 163 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:16.740 I actually found it kind of refreshing that everyone is in the same outfits, and they are a bit like they're wearing high vis. 164 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:35.580 I think it was a fine idea to do like Waters of Mars an impossible planet as, you know, they're all basically wearing contemporary, like our contemporary clothing on this, you know, science fiction base, partly to make it feel a bit more real and not to spacey. 165 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:44.940 Um, but I was kind of, I liked the fact that they are, they look like they're dressed in something that one might wear when working in a dangerous environment. 166 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.539 And I think, you know, do we want that every week? 167 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:55.620 No, but I think given the fact that we've had so many episodes where people have been wearing contemporary street clothes, I think that this makes a nice change. 168 00:14:55.679 --> 00:15:02.580 If we're talking about reproductions of humans and what makes you a person, We do touch on the notions of slavery. 169 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:03.659 Of course, there's a lot in this. 170 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.379 I'm also interested that they're pasty white. rather than have a colour. 171 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:14.220 So there's all sorts of levels of, of the underclass and how they work and what sentience is. 172 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:15.299 There's lots of science fiction. 173 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:16.740 Can we say tropes in this episode? 174 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:18.419 No, I'm here. 175 00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:35.639 But yeah, but we go back to Benjamin again who talked about the aura of reproductions and how a copy is diminished because it is never going to be the original. 176 00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:44.460 And Amy actually partly quotes or or, um, might say, yeah, Benjamin's own words when she talks about, you're the, um, you're the original doctor. 177 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:45.840 I know, I know which is which. 178 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:47.039 There's a quality of you. 179 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:50.580 Anyway, it's paraphrasing Benjamin's own essay. 180 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.659 Uh, and I think that Graham's, has anyone seen Nash's 2 ashes? 181 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:55.440 No. 182 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.840 Graham's other heat at the time. 183 00:15:57.899 --> 00:15:59.100 He's a good writer. 184 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:02.519 And he does explore themes within his writing. 185 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:07.860 I think that's something that Stephen Moffat appreciates in his writer's guild. 186 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:12.899 They um, he likes people who have more to say than what's necessarily on the screen at the one time. 187 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.399 And I think this story. 188 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:15.899 I agree with you all. 189 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:24.000 It has a certain flatness when you look at it as a TV episode, and I don't think the direction helps for that, but thematically, it's terribly interesting. 190 00:16:24.059 --> 00:17:00.480 And then it, if you want to posit it, Benjamin talked about art or any reproduction of the aesthetic is boulderized or diminished under late model capitalism, which he says is fascism, that the control of the autonomy of any person is completely directed by outside sources, and therefore we live in a state of artificiality, and our own aesthetic and our own aura is subsumed by the nature of how we move and how we live, and of course he was, um, He was a victim of the 2nd World War and, um, and suffered terribly through it. 191 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:02.940 But he's his writings and his thinking. 192 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:12.180 I really do believe her in this story and they like your opinions on that because I'm starting to tire myself with my own voice here. 193 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.660 But I just want to know if you take on that. 194 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:16.140 Yeah. 195 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.059 Richard, I'd agree with you. 196 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:19.680 I think the premise is reasonably interesting. 197 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.539 I think there are some themes at work here. 198 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:27.359 Is that sort of perennial Doctor Who idea of whether a person is just the sum of their memories or not. 199 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.240 Um, there's a there's a whole lot of sources here. 200 00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:31.440 There's some Blade Runner there. 201 00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:35.400 I was going to say, that's clearly inspired by Avatar as well. 202 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:41.279 And and we know that Moffat discussed Avatar as a... with Much with Graham. 203 00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:44.759 Yeah, as an impetus for this writing, yeah. 204 00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:49.319 I think Stephen also mentioned the thing as something that they were drawing on. 205 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:53.940 And Wales Frankenstein, the scene with the lightning over the crucible. 206 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:54.779 Yeah, absolutely. 207 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:55.319 Yeah. 208 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:55.740 Yeah. 209 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.480 Beautifully done, actually. 210 00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:03.599 Mind you, mentioning any of those things is drawing a pretty long bow in terms of their visceral impact compared with this. 211 00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:06.839 It's like saying time lashes like the work of HG Wells. 212 00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:08.640 Well, yes it is, but no, it isn't. 213 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:15.000 I think I think that comparing this to Timelash is somewhat unfair. 214 00:18:15.059 --> 00:18:15.839 Okay. 215 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:20.579 Oh, Simon, you know what, actually, do compare this to Time Lash unfavourably. 216 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:23.160 Outrageous. 217 00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:35.099 Let me pick up on some of that because I do think that there is a clearer attempt that a critique of the exploitation of workers. 218 00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:44.039 Our very 1st scene is a horrific industrial accident that we don't really care about, that no one is sort of particularly upset by. 219 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:48.059 We have everyone in high vis, as Simon points out. 220 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.180 We have a range of regional accents. 221 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:58.440 We see that the workers have to kind of bundy on and off. 222 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:09.299 It's not kind of emphasised in the direction or the script particularly, but there's a thing called the metre that they have to kind of clock on and off to, you know, register how much time they've been spending. 223 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:18.839 And I think we'll talk more about this next week when we do the 2nd episode because I think it actually fails. 224 00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:21.839 I don't think it's a successful critique. 225 00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:45.119 It's partly because it's kind of muddled because partly because the workers and the people exploiting them are the same group of people, but also because it does the usual Doctor Who thing of not wanting anyone to be too rebellious in these situations, or they'll turn into a villain. 226 00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:54.000 And so, so we will get on to that more next week, but I do think that that there is a very clear intention of doing that. 227 00:19:54.359 --> 00:20:04.559 And I guess it's in the kind of robots of death tradition of portraying a sort of slave uprising and then ultimately getting it horribly wrong. 228 00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:08.940 At least the doctor is not unequivocally on the side of the oppressor. 229 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:14.700 No, and that is very different here, and I really, really think that there's something particularly good about that. 230 00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:25.140 And I do think too, that the way that we encounter the characters after the big storm is really great. 231 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:40.559 So, you know, um, buzzer, Dickon and Jimmy are all in their harnesses, so we know that they're them, but we encounter Cleaves quite early on and she's sort of clearly confused. 232 00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:48.059 And we encountered Jenny, both out of their harnesses, and it turns out they're both gangers. 233 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:49.740 And did you understand? 234 00:20:49.799 --> 00:21:01.140 Do you know the scene in the dining hall where the doctor heats up some food in the microwave and then hands it to Cleaves to test whether she's a ganger or not. 235 00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:03.960 She doesn't realise she's a ganger at that point. 236 00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:04.680 Is that right? 237 00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:06.539 100%. 238 00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:08.819 She doesn't realise she's a ganger. 239 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.880 And Jennifer certainly doesn't realise she's a ganga at all. 240 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.559 Neither of them do. 241 00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:24.000 And I think that's, but I think that's one of the things that I sort of really love about it in that they, it's only when it's pointed out to them, that they're, the duplicate, the ganger. 242 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:27.599 And then something inside that goes, 0 my god. 243 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:32.099 Um, I'm the fake one and yet I feel like I'm the real one. 244 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:42.480 And that's kind of what sends them a bit a bit crazy or at least because they know that they would want to destroy themselves. 245 00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:43.259 Do you know what I mean? 246 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.900 So there's that they're probably in an internal conflict. 247 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:49.799 And there's probably a certain amount of inner hatred there too, if you wanted to extrapolate. 248 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:50.880 I mean maybe it's going a bit far. 249 00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:52.200 But that kind of self-loathing. 250 00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:53.880 Oh my god, I'm the fake, I'm the fake. 251 00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:57.299 I think that's actually quite well done in both in both instances there. 252 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:01.319 And it's good that we don't do it and it's good that we don't do it for everyone. 253 00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:03.359 We just do it for 2 and then and then that's enough. 254 00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:12.359 Yes, it's an excellent observation and also touches very nicely on the um, position of the fan. 255 00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:18.180 And how we are as observers of ourselves. 256 00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:19.079 Yes, there you go. 257 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.319 Self-loathing is of the heart of the fandom. 258 00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:23.160 Is that what you're saying? 259 00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:24.960 Very much so. 260 00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:26.700 I would hope so anyway. 261 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:46.319 I mean, it's terrifying conceptually because, because the, you know, something about the subjectivity of the, of the people involved that they, their experience is that they are a human being up until the point of the storm and then suddenly they've been turned into monsters. 262 00:22:46.380 --> 00:23:02.460 That's what it feels like to them because they have all of the memories that their originals have, but suddenly now they're kind of disposable industrial tools. 263 00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:08.279 And they're no longer sort of part of our moral community in a way it's all right to kill them. 264 00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:12.779 And the doctor kind of intervenes and sort of demonstrates, no, that's wrong. 265 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:13.980 That's the wrong attitude. 266 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:14.400 Look at them. 267 00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:15.180 They're people. 268 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.799 They are literally you. 269 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:20.220 And so they are part of your moral community. 270 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:25.079 But that's not how, you know, we automatically react to them, I think. 271 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:41.339 And one of the one of the successes, I think, in the characterisation is, say, the difference between the way that Jimmy reacts to his ganger, which is he pretty soon realises that they're the same person and there's one scene where they're about to go off together to hunt for Jennifer. 272 00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:47.640 And they seem to be kind of willing to work together and that will obviously develop next episode. 273 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:59.160 And then you have Cleves, who says, no, this is industrial equipment owned by the company that has gone rogue and it's okay to kill them. 274 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.940 The quicker we put things back to the way they were, the better. 275 00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:10.619 I mean, this actually touches on what you're saying about, I can't remember the character's name, funnily enough, the Scottish guy with the king. 276 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.240 I mean, Jimmy. 277 00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:14.940 It's Jimmy's even got a Jimmy name. 278 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.339 It is that sort of thing. 279 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.259 I mean, going back to the characterisations being poor. 280 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:33.839 I mean, they just throw in the thing with the kid, his son to use that as a way of making him communicate with his ganger in a way that makes him realise what you just said, that, oh, he's actually a fully functioning entity. 281 00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:48.180 Just going back to the sort of the, the thing about the, the sort of the workers' rights or slave oppression or whatever it was you were sort of talking about, it's, yes, it is, but not quite in the way I think you said, because it's kind of complex because the gangers are like the industrial equipment. 282 00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:55.559 So you can't really suggest that the people working there are in some way an oppressed working class. 283 00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:58.920 There's a suggestion that they're being reasonably paid. 284 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:00.960 Yes, it's hard work, it's a terrible work day. 285 00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:01.859 It's dangerous work. 286 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.180 They have to do it for a long period of time. 287 00:25:03.299 --> 00:25:06.299 But they kind of, and they're looking forward to, to it being over. 288 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.180 It's more like a sort of an ood situation. 289 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:15.000 Like, the gangers are sort of like the ood, uh, in a thirst, we sort of treat them as disposable doesn't matter. 290 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:17.160 They're just they're cattle, basically. 291 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:26.759 But nevertheless, the gangers are created by the company or by whatever the technology is to make it actually safer for the workers to do their job. 292 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:31.140 So it's it's kind of, I like it because it's not actually clear. 293 00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:36.480 Yeah, you see, I I dislike it because I think it is a little bit muddy. 294 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:44.160 I'm not suggesting that the, um, the people working on the base are, the oppressed class. 295 00:25:44.220 --> 00:26:07.920 I think the gang, the gangers are, um, because the doctor shows us that in fact, even before the storm happens, and the gangers come to life, magically like in Frankenstein, um, that the gangers are absorbing the personalities and memories of the people that they're called on to imitate. 296 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:13.920 And so the flesh, that sort of big puddle of, it's horrible, isn't it? 297 00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:15.900 sort of like milk with hair in it or something. 298 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:17.279 It's super upsetting looking. 299 00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:24.059 Um, that that has actually acquired a measure of sentience and, and it has the ability to suffer. 300 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:37.500 And in fact, we're told that the way that the gangers are set up is that the pain they experience is not conveyed through the harnesses to their operators. 301 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.079 And so it's very expendable. 302 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:41.759 They can be destroyed. 303 00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:43.680 There's an unlimited supply of them. 304 00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:48.900 We just treat them like forklifts or something like that. 305 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:55.500 In fact, I think that comparison's explicitly made, isn't it, in the script. think so, yeah. 306 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:56.160 Yeah. 307 00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:00.059 It is worst, worst Delia Smith pudding. 308 00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:03.660 It certainly didn't set correctly. 309 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:05.940 No. 310 00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:08.819 You're meant to wear a hair nest for you. 311 00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:13.500 Reminds you of the milk you got at school. 312 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:36.180 I think there are some really good ideas in motion here, but I don't think it helps. 313 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:37.680 There's two things I don't think help. 314 00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:43.799 One is that the pivotal moment that puts the humans and their gangers at war is pretty simplistically rendered. 315 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:50.579 So it should have been tragic and regretful that Cleaves kills someone to set this whole thing in motion. 316 00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:52.680 But instead, we don't dwell on that. 317 00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:56.279 Instead, 2 scenes later, both groups are chanting us and them, us and them. 318 00:27:56.339 --> 00:28:00.720 And so you reach that point really quickly and kind of a bit uninterestingly. 319 00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:07.140 But the other thing, I think, is that the gangers aren't rendered that well, I think. 320 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.640 I think they look a bit comical, and they're not uncanny valley enough. 321 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:20.400 Um, they needed to be something where you would look at them and they really did look like the originals with just something a little bit off, whereas in fact they just look like Odo off Deep Space 9. 322 00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:28.619 Like the makeup is almost designed to kind of like it deliberately removes their facial features. 323 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:45.839 Like it makes them look less like the people that they're imitating, um, with some exceptions, there's some good stuff with Jennifer, where they just kind of make her pale and give her the sort of veins and stuff. 324 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:48.180 And that's when they're emphasising. 325 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:59.279 There's a beautiful moment where she starts weeping and her face goes from being just that sort of pale white to sort of being fully human, which I think is sort of very well done. 326 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.740 And like maybe that's intentional as well. 327 00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:09.960 Like the fact that the gang of makeup obscures the, the, the features of the people in a story about identity. 328 00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:27.059 That's the example, his exact example I was going to give, maybe they should have looked like that sequence with Jennifer, the gang of Jennifer, with the, you know, where she's just, it's more subtle, the, the, um, imperfections of her, uh, to make, to make it clear. she's a ganger. 329 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:31.619 I'd be curious to know why that's the only sequence that a ganger looks like that. 330 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:35.339 Whereas in all the other sequence where the gangers look like gangs. 331 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:39.000 They are the Odo sort of the wet looking Odo version. 332 00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:48.000 Do you notice, though, too, that, and this is particularly when they, you know, after the us and them sequence, and they, and they all, the gangers all go off into their hide away, wherever it is. 333 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:50.700 It's like they're evil. 334 00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.240 They plot the destruction of the humans when they look like Odo. 335 00:29:54.299 --> 00:30:07.079 Uh, and when they go into full human form, is when they seem more reasonable and um, uh, and and are able to sort of talk about, well, yes, maybe we can, we can, we can all get on. 336 00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:13.859 Uh, I don't know whether that's deliberate or accidental, but it is a bit sort of um, an interesting choice. 337 00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:17.700 It's like Bruton in Terror of the Zygons. 338 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:22.440 He has all the dry wis of the, uh, of whoever is impersonating. 339 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.839 Yes, exactly. but not as himself. 340 00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:26.759 Yes, yes, yes. 341 00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:27.660 Yes. 342 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:29.759 He absorbs that bit of the personality. 343 00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:30.960 It's curious. 344 00:30:31.019 --> 00:30:43.680 Giving them the odo look and all that, I think is, is more a choice about, let's make them look a bit horrific and, you know, a bit subhuman and a bit, all the rest of it, just to sort of scare the kids, get the action figure set out. whatever it is. 345 00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:47.759 And so I think that's why those sorts of choices are made rather than. 346 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.220 I suppose what I'm saying. 347 00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:54.779 I think we tried to read too much into it by wondering why they did that. 348 00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:55.559 It's obvious. 349 00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:57.839 They just wanted to have a monster. something that looks like a monster. 350 00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:00.119 I think that's absolutely right. 351 00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:00.720 Yeah. 352 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:08.640 In a story which is already struggling to sell its, its themes, it's another thing that muddies the waters a little bit, I think. 353 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.119 Or does it help us identify what is the other? 354 00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:13.500 Yeah. 355 00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:25.559 In that, those, all those things that you've said, those, those slices on the slide under the microscope and yet they have an aorta, they have, they apparently have a functioning pulmonary system. 356 00:31:25.619 --> 00:31:26.279 He had a heart. 357 00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:29.640 I'm still not sure whether that's the original or the copy in that scene. 358 00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:42.119 Obviously, it's the copy, but there's a point that, yes, they become more monstrous as they lose the face, but then you see a human face, but then you see other scenes where the originals, you might say, the original, you might say. 359 00:31:44.339 --> 00:31:46.140 I'm so sorry. 360 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:52.500 He's equally if not more monstrous in there in their drives, especially with cleaves. 361 00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:02.220 Should we throw in that Raquel Cassidy's mother named her after Raquel Welsh, because she was a fan of all of those of all of those Bob Hope Christmas specials. 362 00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:04.319 I think that that would cause anger in itself. 363 00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:08.099 Originally funny, just pick up on that because that's actually a very interesting point. 364 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:18.480 I think maybe we do need to see them as a bit of a monster and a bit ugly in order to remind us that they're not real, not the originals, but we still need to care for them. 365 00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:19.619 So I think I think you're right. 366 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.480 There is a bit of the rills from Galaxy 4. 367 00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:28.380 We need to have a bit of ugly there to make us question, oh, you know, can we accept these people as real, genuine people? 368 00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:30.480 Yeah, I agree. 369 00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:35.700 I think that's sort of part of the horror, part of the terrible thing that's happened to them. 370 00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:45.000 You know, they've been othered by this sort of industrial accident and suddenly they're kind of a bit disgusting and monstrous. 371 00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:52.799 And I do think that one of the things that that can do is to elicit sympathy for them. 372 00:32:52.859 --> 00:33:01.799 And I think it does do that with Jen, but the problem is she is such a kind of thoroughgoing monster that it's a problem. 373 00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:09.839 I think it's a little bit like, you know, Doctor Who and the Silurians, which is brilliant, and please don't, uh, said you hate mail. 374 00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:11.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 375 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:12.299 That's right. 376 00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:12.839 Send it. 377 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:14.039 Please don't blow up your base. 378 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:26.220 You know, the one of the problems with the Silurians is that the premise is that they're people, but they just very quickly turn into monsters who want to just kill us all. 379 00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:31.440 And that's a bit of a shame because that premise gets slightly thrown away. 380 00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:36.059 And I think that this story kind of suffers from that a bit as well. 381 00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:44.160 But in both instances, it's not because the Saudi Urians or the gangers are innately monsters. 382 00:33:44.220 --> 00:34:01.019 It's because of internal political shenanigans that make, in the Southerins case, convince them that they have to, you know, they overthrow the peace-loving leader so that the warmonger can get on with it and destroy humanity, sort of similarly with the gangers. 383 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:03.480 You've got some of them. they're discussing, or what can we do? 384 00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:07.140 Should we try and, you know, get together or and then they go, no, we have to destroy them. 385 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.000 So they're not just acting as a block. 386 00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:11.880 And they do split up into factionettes quite quickly. 387 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:28.199 I also think too, that it's a little bit like last year's Silurian Supato, where one side murdering someone from the other side actually is a kind of, you know, inciting moment. 388 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:34.619 Please, I hope you're not suggesting that this is as bad. as that two-parter. 389 00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:36.360 Uh no. 390 00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:38.159 Well, there we are then. 391 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:38.579 Okay. 392 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.519 Fear her channelled through Chris Chipnall. 393 00:34:41.579 --> 00:34:42.059 How could it go wrong? 394 00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:03.300 One of the things that we haven't discussed this far into our episode is the Dr. Amy and Rory. 395 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:13.079 Um, and I actually think that this 2 parter kind of has an interesting role in this half season. 396 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:20.820 Because the doctor is clearly lying to Amy and Rory about what's going on. 397 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:38.039 And so in that opening scene in the TARDIS, which has a spectacularly good diagetic music choice, I have to say, the doctor is going to drop Amy and Rory off so they can get fish and chips because he has something that he wants to do and he doesn't want them to come with him. 398 00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:47.340 And when Amy says to him, I want to be where you are when you're doing this thing, he looks at her really super weirdly. 399 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:57.719 And the opening of the episode has him looking again at the quantum pregnancy screen, which he seems to be doing a lot of for our benefit, I presume. 400 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:07.920 So it's very clear that he already knows that Amy is a ganger and that he is here to find out more about them, but he actually lies to them about that. 401 00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:18.119 And I do think that this is one of the points where Matt Smith's doctor actually becomes sort of quite devious and unlikeable. 402 00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:25.380 Well, this is kind of he's showing his Sue Ester McCoy new adventures kind of persona at this point. 403 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:26.460 But I never have a problem with that. 404 00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:36.840 I think it, um, it accelerates a problem with Amy this season in that a lot of the joy has been sucked out of her character, and I know that there are plot reasons for this. 405 00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:41.400 You know, the doctor is looking at Amy in a super weird way because of the thing that's going on in the ark. 406 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:45.659 Um, But there's just not that same sparkle that they had last year. 407 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:50.400 And I think it's a problem for just the enjoyment of watching it episode to episode. 408 00:36:51.239 --> 00:37:00.059 I think that there is a problem here. where our regulars actually aren't all that fun anymore. 409 00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:02.460 No, that's yeah. 410 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:08.760 Yeah, and I think I think in some ways it makes the episode unpleasant to watch because it's a little bit unrelenting. 411 00:37:08.820 --> 00:37:14.940 And even though we've thrown some dusty Springfield in the beginning, which, you know, awesome. 412 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:19.019 There's precious little kind of fun or whimsy to be had. 413 00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:21.900 And maybe that's okay. 414 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:29.099 Maybe last week and the week before were sort of fun and whimsical and this is kind of the dark serious 2 parter. 415 00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:33.000 But I still think it could be more fun. 416 00:37:33.059 --> 00:37:37.739 I think there's more fun to be had next week, actually, to be honest, but I agree. 417 00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:39.000 With the game doctor, yeah. 418 00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:40.800 Yeah, I think this is a little bit miserable. 419 00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:48.539 And not only do you have the doctor being a bit strained with Amy and Rory, but this episode makes Amy and Rory strained as well. 420 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:53.519 And so, if I'm honest, the Rory Jennifer Link is a bit weird. 421 00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:55.679 I don't think it's sold in the script at all. 422 00:37:55.739 --> 00:38:01.920 I don't worry if we're meant to think that Rory is actually a bit attracted to Jennifer or if he's just giving care to her. 423 00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:09.059 Um, she's all over him with kind of the kisses because he's the only man who's ever shown her any kindness, which is a bit gross. 424 00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:12.059 I just think the script fumbles this. 425 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:15.659 It drives a wedge between Amy and Rory. 426 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:21.179 Whereas actually a friendship between Rory and Jennifer, a proper friendship would have been the way to go. 427 00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:26.340 I think there's a little moment where Amy visibly gives Rory permission. 428 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:29.039 So they make eye contact. 429 00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:30.300 That's a very nice moment. 430 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:31.920 Yeah, that's a very nice moment. 431 00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:33.480 And after that it goes a bit wrong. 432 00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:34.980 Yeah, it does. 433 00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:38.159 I think that might be a little bit of the way it's played. 434 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.440 I agree with you, but sort of not, not overly. 435 00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:58.019 I think it's, I think my reading of it is that Rory is attracted to Jennifer, uh, because, you know, for whatever reason, and he, but he knows that it's not, nothing's going to happen and he has no intention of anything is going to happen. 436 00:38:58.079 --> 00:38:59.400 He's certainly not going to stray. 437 00:38:59.460 --> 00:39:09.659 But I kind of see, he's got a little bit of guilt about the fact that, yes, he's a little bit attracted, attracted to her, but he's got to care for her because she's, you know, upset, distraught, and all the rest of it. 438 00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:19.380 So I sort of think that works by making it a little bit ambiguous that you're not entirely sure where it's going to go because that's kind of often what life is like in this regard. 439 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:24.360 Yeah He certainly does seem to be being shunted off into a sort of side plot. 440 00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:30.059 He's kind of NISA assembling an android back in the TARDIS or something in this episode. 441 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:38.519 It's a good way of actually splitting up the regulars because one of the things that, especially when you've got 2 companions, is that you want to be able to split the team up. 442 00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:44.760 And I think that's just a method of the Jennifer subplot as a way of getting Rory away from the others. 443 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:54.539 It does lead him to do kind of things that are irrational so that he doesn't join them in the room at the end of the episode. 444 00:39:54.659 --> 00:39:55.619 But it's integral to it. 445 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:56.880 It's integral to his character. 446 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.420 It's organic because everything that Rory does is empathetic. 447 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:06.900 Everything that he, and he's, he's so troubled by the fraternal paternal feelings he has for Jen. 448 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:07.980 I don't believe there's any. 449 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:09.480 Oh, and of course he's a boy. 450 00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.099 There's going to be some level of attraction. 451 00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:15.480 We've already read that, but then there's all of that guilt that goes into it. 452 00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:20.400 I believe he's trying to, um, a parent and, in, indeed. 453 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:27.179 And he's so guilty about it, which which is a much a very necessary moment of humour in this episode. 454 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:35.460 Nathan, do you think there's an element of Taranton Perry from the Blake 7 episode Assassin, where the man just wants to take care of the helpless woman. 455 00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:49.980 The place that it does pay off is in that bathroom scene, which I think is really good, because that makes it clear that Jen doesn't know that she is a ganger until she sees herself in the mirror and then vomits up, you know, some slime. 456 00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:50.820 Yeah, yeah. 457 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:55.440 And then she turns into like that weird snake thing. 458 00:40:55.500 --> 00:41:00.840 Yeah, that's, that's, and that was a poor choice at this, at this time of the story, I think. 459 00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:04.079 She turns into a monster too soon. 460 00:41:04.139 --> 00:41:05.039 Yeah, yeah. 461 00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:08.280 And there's no rational reason for that, at least at this point. 462 00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:10.619 She needs to get a bit more demented before. 463 00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:17.400 I'm a little bit on board with the face on the stalk, but I'm not really on board with the big fist. just looks bizarre. 464 00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:19.320 We don't really properly see it. 465 00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:21.179 What are they trying to do, Terminator 2, aren't they? 466 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:25.920 I like the grotesqueness of it and we will get more of that next week. 467 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:30.719 It is sort of super grotesque in a way that's nearly comical. 468 00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:36.059 And I'm not sure the special effects are quite up to it, but, you know, if I wanted to complain about that. 469 00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:37.260 I'm watching the rock show. 470 00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:40.260 Watch your mouth out there. 471 00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:55.739 I think there's a very salient. plot reason that Jennifer is the 1st to go AWOL, which is the only real person to show genuine sympathy for the gangers in those 1st few moments of the of the episode. 472 00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:02.639 So, you could say that it's a subversive writing that those who care the most have the most to lose and therefore become the most dangerous. 473 00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:04.860 We were talking about lockdown earlier. 474 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.619 And um, I think I can see some threads here. 475 00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:14.219 And how people behave under suppression and or oppression. especially the most sensitive in the group. 476 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.760 I've seen that both on the far left and the far right. 477 00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:24.119 So perhaps it is yet another little bell to holding up a mirror to how we behave. 478 00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:35.460 I think this is very well written, and perhaps what it's losing, what we've talked about earlier in the episode is that just through the process of getting a production onto screen, some of these subtleties. 479 00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:42.239 We have to question because they're not necessarily evident in the script and maybe it shouldn't be evident. 480 00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:49.380 Maybe it should be there for us to work out ourselves, the nuances that just as there are nuances in this very conversation. 481 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:55.619 Yeah, I'm happy for things to not be explicit and I'm not, I'm happy for things to not be explicitly, explicitly portrayed. 482 00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:02.400 And I'm also very happy for different people to get different ideas of what might be going on. 483 00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:07.320 Uh, independently, and in fact, you can get slightly different ideas each time you watch it. 484 00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:11.760 Yeah, I think that sort of ambiguity is actually a strength. 485 00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:13.440 Now maybe it's unintentional. 486 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:16.079 Maybe it should have been clearer. 487 00:43:16.139 --> 00:43:21.599 But I don't think the end product is that problematic from that point of view. 488 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:29.940 I think the ambiguity of it is fine, but this whole story, there's something missing from, particularly this episode. 489 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.900 I was talking earlier about the sense of the uncanny valley about the gangers. 490 00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:36.119 The whole thing is like this. 491 00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:39.480 It looks like Doctor Who, but it doesn't feel like it very much to me. 492 00:43:39.539 --> 00:43:44.400 It feels like the show's wit and warmth are a little bit absent from this episode. 493 00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:45.179 Yeah. 494 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:46.500 Yeah, I think you're right. 495 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:49.559 It's lacking some warmth, but I think there is still wit in this. 496 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.780 I think we're kind of nearing the end of our discussion here. 497 00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.679 So let's talk about the cliffhanger. 498 00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:13.920 How do we feel this one works? 499 00:44:14.699 --> 00:44:16.500 I think it's really good. 500 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:22.260 I love the centrality of, of, Matt of the doctor calling himself Smith. 501 00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:36.840 Thereby subverting any level, all the levels of the narrative, in fact, at once and telling us that, you know, that he is living very much this part of the duality. 502 00:44:36.900 --> 00:44:40.980 And it, I found it, even after several watchings. 503 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:44.699 There is a base spine level disturbance to it. 504 00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:48.780 Matt does that very lovely with but not of creepiness. 505 00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:53.280 With his sugar coated marshmallow piglet face. 506 00:44:54.539 --> 00:45:01.679 It's nice that the end of the episode gives Matt something to do because I think he's been a bit poorly served throughout the rest of the episode. 507 00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:07.440 Um, all of that dialogue about e- bye-bye gum and that, even he can't say that. 508 00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:09.119 It's dreadful. 509 00:45:09.179 --> 00:45:17.760 But then, you know, we do get that moment at the end where he comes face to face and you think, well, you know, we're going to have some more entertaining stuff for next week and I think that's borne out. 510 00:45:17.820 --> 00:45:28.260 And I think it's very classic who, Cliffhanger, and I think it's it caps off what is effectively quite a classic who story for an episode. 511 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:36.000 Uh, and I mean that with all the pluses and minuses that one might be able to uh, infer from that. 512 00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:41.820 All the all the wonderful imperfections about how the episode has been made. 513 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:49.019 Uh, I'm not denying, but I think it's, it's capped off with a cliffhanger, which summarises that whole thing quite, quite well. 514 00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:28.079 Well, dear listener, we really should head off to the bathroom to fetch a towel right now, but we'll be back next week to see if anyone's going to collapse into a puddle of white goo or anything in the almost people. 515 00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:44.699 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at flight through entirety on Facebook, at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, flight through entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody Interterterra. 516 00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:50.519 Until next time, remember, you don't have to say you love me, just stay close at hand. 517 00:46:50.579 --> 00:46:53.159 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 518 00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:54.360 Good night. 519 00:46:54.420 --> 00:46:55.500 Bye for now. 520 00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:56.820 Good and knocked. 521 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:08.340 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Moore and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lam. 522 00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:15.719 This episode, centuries of embittered religiosity, was recorded on the 15th of August 2021 and released on the 10th of October. 523 00:47:16.619 --> 00:47:26.579 Check out our YouTube channel for a how-to video on creating your own flesh to help you out with unwanted domestic chores, family gatherings, and quality time with the kids. 524 00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:34.559 All you need is some lightly curdled milk, a handful of armpit hair, and 4 to 5000 human souls damned to eternal perdition. 525 00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:49.199 Can you give me a 2nd because I have Alfie crying and scratching at the door outside the room, and I don't know whether it will come over on my track, and plus I'm a very caring pet owner. 526 00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:50.820 So I will go and deal with him. 527 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.420 I'll be back. 528 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:52.739 Okay. 529 00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:57.659 I think it's another quick we. 530 00:47:58.860 --> 00:48:00.900 It's all of these coffees. 531 00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:04.139 It's a longer way. a longer way.