WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:33:14 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.840 Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety 2 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:43.859 the only Doctor Who podcast that woke up from that storm an hour 3 00:00:43.859 --> 00:00:46.439 ago with literally no idea who we are. 4 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:48.359 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:49.679 I'm Pisa. 6 00:00:49.740 --> 00:00:54.600 I'm Simon, and I'm Dosty Springfield, extruded through a PVC ag 7 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:55.619 pipe for this episode. 8 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.740 Well, it's the 22nd century. 9 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:01.920 We're on a small island, possibly off the coast of Kent. 10 00:01:01.979 --> 00:01:05.579 No one knows if they are who they think they are, and a simple 11 00:01:05.579 --> 00:01:09.420 demarkation dispute is about to turn homicidal. 12 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:14.280 So let's see what happens when we come face to face with the rebel 13 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:14.700 flesh. 14 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:37.319 Can we start this week by talking about the teaser? 15 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:41.219 Because I actually think this teaser does a very good job of 16 00:01:41.219 --> 00:01:43.859 establishing what the episode is about. 17 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:45.659 Yes, absolutely. 18 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:49.920 It gets straight in there and you're immediately asking, well, wait 19 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:50.700 a minute, how does this work? 20 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:54.180 They're also casual about this guy being, you know, falling into 21 00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:56.400 the acid vat and dissolving into nothing. 22 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:58.200 And then, you know, he appears a moment later. 23 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:01.680 And so it gets us asking those questions as well as being a kind 24 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:02.519 of an exciting sequence. 25 00:02:02.579 --> 00:02:06.000 I think too, the fact that it ends, because always the most 26 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.960 important part of a teaser is the very final shot, and the final 27 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:14.879 shot is the face, and it looks like a screaming face, dissolving 28 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:15.599 in the acid. 29 00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:20.819 And so already the sort of idea that there's something wrong about 30 00:02:20.819 --> 00:02:25.020 the sort of casualness with which they treat this, you know, what 31 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:26.460 looks like an industrial accident. 32 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:31.500 I think it's really quite effective, but also start, as you mean 33 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:34.919 to go on, I think the direction lets it down slightly, um, right 34 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:39.000 from the off, because you have the, uh, the bit where Jen pushes 35 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:41.939 the other guy in, and she keeps saying after that, I never touched 36 00:02:41.939 --> 00:02:42.180 you. 37 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.039 I took a swing, but she did. 38 00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:46.319 She clearly pushed him and he stumbled. 39 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:47.819 And I don't think she's meant to be lying. 40 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:50.520 I think it's confused direction and we'll see more of that as the 41 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:51.120 episodes go on. 42 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:55.319 Oh, I read that as Jen being just a little bit too fast and loose 43 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:56.699 for everybody's own good. 44 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:58.020 Maybe. 45 00:02:58.020 --> 00:03:01.259 I think there is another problem with the direction, which is that 46 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:04.560 you don't get a clear look at Buzz's face. 47 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:10.680 And so when he turns up, it takes a 2nd before you realise that 48 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:15.180 the person who's turned up is the person who just dissolved in the 49 00:03:15.180 --> 00:03:16.020 acid. 50 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:18.419 So you haven't got a clear look at his face. 51 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:24.000 And I also think the fact that his name is Buzzer is a problem too 52 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.460 because when Jen says it. 53 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:29.159 Firstly, she says it with a northern accent. 54 00:03:29.219 --> 00:03:31.919 But secondly, she sounds like she's talking about a bit of 55 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:35.280 equipment that, you know, needs some attention or something. 56 00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:37.680 Has anyone seen me comforter? 57 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:38.819 I mean, me also. 58 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:40.199 Yes, no, it sorted. 59 00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:43.139 I mean, all these characters start off as a collection of 60 00:03:43.139 --> 00:03:45.000 irritating accents and they just go from there. 61 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:48.719 We're not talking about new Doctor Who. 62 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:49.500 No, we are. 63 00:03:49.500 --> 00:03:53.580 But that's a problem as well. 64 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:58.139 And that is one of the major problems of the episode, I think, is 65 00:03:58.139 --> 00:04:02.340 that the characters just aren't quite clearly drawn enough. 66 00:04:03.060 --> 00:04:07.680 Yeah, I mean, each character is so briefly sketched, I think. 67 00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:10.500 I mean, you can attach a one word description to each of them. 68 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:12.479 So Cleaves is like world weary. 69 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:16.620 Jimmy is Scottish and maybe loves badly acted son. 70 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.319 Jen, Jenny's Australian. 71 00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:22.620 Yes, he seems to be Australian, right? 72 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:27.899 Jenny's meek. and, you know, with the inability to say Rory 73 00:04:27.899 --> 00:04:29.519 without emphasising 2 syllables. 74 00:04:29.579 --> 00:04:30.120 Rory. 75 00:04:30.180 --> 00:04:31.920 And Buzzer and the other guy. 76 00:04:31.980 --> 00:04:33.839 I can't even tell anyone. 77 00:04:33.899 --> 00:04:35.699 Yes, it's extremely annoying. 78 00:04:35.939 --> 00:04:39.839 And so, yeah, I think there's a problem with these characters in 79 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:42.480 that, um, there's actually not much to them. 80 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:47.879 I actually watched this ages ago because I watched all of sort of 81 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:52.860 Amy and Rory's episodes in preparation for doing series 5 on the 82 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:53.459 podcast. 83 00:04:53.459 --> 00:04:57.779 And when I watched it then, and perhaps I wasn't sufficiently 84 00:04:57.779 --> 00:05:01.139 attentive, I have to admit that I didn't know how many people were 85 00:05:01.139 --> 00:05:03.540 on the base by the end of the episode. 86 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:08.040 And I think the problem is Dickon, who is a person with literally 87 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:10.439 no discernable characteristics at all. 88 00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:15.540 I kept calling him turning during the episode because I couldn't 89 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:19.199 remember his real name. because he does nothing apart from dicking 90 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:19.439 around. 91 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:24.300 And when you compare it to something like the Impossible Planet or 92 00:05:24.300 --> 00:05:29.220 um, Waters of Mars or something like that, where you have, you 93 00:05:29.220 --> 00:05:33.959 know, well-drawn characters who are diverse and sort of 94 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:39.000 interesting and seem to be sort of very well sketched, I think 95 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:42.779 these ones come up short, and I don't think they're helped by 96 00:05:42.779 --> 00:05:45.060 putting everyone in yellow jumpsuits as well. 97 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:50.339 Yeah, I agree that they're not particularly well-created 98 00:05:50.339 --> 00:05:50.879 characters. 99 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:55.560 In fact, one of the problems I had was knowing, not so much who 100 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:57.899 was who because that's sort of pretty obvious, but in terms of 101 00:05:57.899 --> 00:05:59.040 knowing what everyone's names are. 102 00:05:59.100 --> 00:06:03.000 I remember Jennifer, because Jen is mentioned over and over again 103 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:05.579 but and again, maybe it was the Northern accent thing, but it took 104 00:06:05.579 --> 00:06:08.939 me a while to work out that one of the characters was called Buzz 105 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:10.920 or Buzz, whatever it was. 106 00:06:10.980 --> 00:06:14.040 So I do get that, and certainly the characters in something like 107 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:16.439 Waters of Mars or Impossible Planet. 108 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:21.480 They're definitely better, but I don't think that that's what 109 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:25.860 they're particularly caring about when they're putting this story 110 00:06:25.860 --> 00:06:26.639 together. 111 00:06:26.699 --> 00:06:30.660 I think they're wanting to do something which focusses on, you 112 00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:34.620 know, the concept and focusses on the, the, the, kind of the 113 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:35.639 horror nature of it. 114 00:06:35.699 --> 00:06:36.420 And so yeah, you're right. 115 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.399 The characters, the characterisations to get to. 116 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:39.180 Why not do both? 117 00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:40.259 Well, why not indeed? 118 00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:43.740 And I'm not saying that it's excusable. 119 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.800 I'm just saying that it's less important than it might be. 120 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:50.459 I actually think it's incredibly important because the whole thing 121 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:55.740 is about identity and whether these new people that we have 122 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:58.620 created are us or not. 123 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:02.220 And so I think the whole thing would benefit enormously from 124 00:07:02.220 --> 00:07:04.620 having more interesting, better drawn characters. 125 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.040 I think the person who comes off best is Cleaves. 126 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.579 Because she has the most rounded character in the most line. 127 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:15.300 Yeah, yes. and you can feel the truncate, and you know the cast 128 00:07:15.300 --> 00:07:18.480 was twice as big in the original writing and too expensive, and 129 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:22.740 that Matthew Graham had to cut all of that because it just felt 130 00:07:22.740 --> 00:07:25.680 like a, I think it was even Stephen Moffatt at the end, said it 131 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:29.939 just felt like a spaghetti factory of pasta shapes. running about 132 00:07:29.939 --> 00:07:30.600 at the end. 133 00:07:30.779 --> 00:07:34.500 You end up with that Warriors of the deep situation where you've 134 00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:37.680 just got a dozen extraneous characters where you think, what are 135 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:38.339 all these people doing? 136 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:41.519 They did have lovely disco jumpsuits in that one. 137 00:07:41.819 --> 00:07:43.560 Yes, yes. 138 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:44.759 Yes. 139 00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:47.279 I mean, I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't have been better had 140 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:49.860 we had sort of more interesting and well-rounded characters, but I 141 00:07:49.860 --> 00:07:54.180 suppose what I'm saying is that it didn't prevent me from enjoying 142 00:07:54.180 --> 00:07:55.079 what I was watching. 143 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.959 The consistent eye-level direction. 144 00:07:58.019 --> 00:08:00.660 I agree with you, both really let it down for me too. 145 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:02.459 You're in a very interesting location. 146 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:06.660 There's no space corridors, though, for once, and I'm disappointed 147 00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:13.439 that I was just getting flat 5 foot 10 linear shots constantly of 148 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:14.459 the actors' faces. 149 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.300 I would have liked to have seen some, you could have created a lot 150 00:08:18.300 --> 00:08:21.420 of drama just with some more interesting angle shots and 151 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:24.899 particularly kinetic shots as the actors are moving about. 152 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:26.100 What did you think about that? 153 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:30.180 I couldn't think of a single close-up in the story. 154 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:30.959 I tried. 155 00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:31.860 I was on the lookout for them. 156 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.120 I didn't see a single closeup. 157 00:08:33.179 --> 00:08:37.919 It was very, it was very flat medium close-ups or distant shots 158 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:38.820 for the entire thing. 159 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.879 Yeah, I found that kind of doll to watch, especially considering 160 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:44.100 what out could have been. was nicely lit. 161 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.480 I do think they got that right and I know they're time poor. 162 00:08:48.539 --> 00:08:51.779 But we're skirting around what this is actually about, aren't we? 163 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:55.620 Well, let's get on to that because I actually do want to talk 164 00:08:55.620 --> 00:08:58.679 about the look of it a little bit 1st if that's possible. 165 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:04.080 What you say, Richard, about the location is that it is much more 166 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:04.620 interesting. 167 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.639 There's a proper attempt to make it something more than just 168 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:10.259 another space base. 169 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:11.519 It's not inferno. 170 00:09:11.580 --> 00:09:14.159 It's not, you know, we're we're not. 171 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:18.240 No, it's disappointing for you. a lot of space reasons. 172 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:19.679 Disappointing for me. 173 00:09:19.740 --> 00:09:23.940 And, you know, the idea that it's a monastery mining acid for the 174 00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:30.419 army is so weird and kind of, it's like a Cluto game. going to be 175 00:09:30.419 --> 00:09:31.019 in the monastery. 176 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.120 Money acid. for the army. 177 00:09:33.179 --> 00:09:36.899 But I actually think that that's kind of fun and interesting, and 178 00:09:36.899 --> 00:09:38.519 I love that the acid's not explained. 179 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:40.860 We've got no idea what it's for or why it's here. 180 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:41.580 What it does. 181 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:42.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 182 00:09:42.899 --> 00:09:46.860 And it just runs through pipes along the corridor. centuries of 183 00:09:46.860 --> 00:09:51.600 embittered religiosity soaking through the stones. the cause of 184 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:51.779 it. 185 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:53.639 That's it. 186 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:56.639 You know, I think the tone meeting for this episode was meant to 187 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.419 be Gothic and understated, but instead we got washed out and 188 00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:01.019 dreary. 189 00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:02.220 How did that happen? 190 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:03.779 I can't say it's dreary. 191 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:04.679 That's ridiculous. 192 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:06.600 I really have. 193 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.860 Has anyone seen the Russian Hamlet of, was it the late 60s? 194 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:16.019 I haven't seen that. remember it? 195 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.519 It's shot in what we assume is Elson or Castle. 196 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:23.519 And it's gorgeous. 197 00:10:23.580 --> 00:10:26.279 It doesn't matter that, in fact, I think it helps that it's in 198 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.799 Russian because, you know, you know the story anyway. 199 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:30.840 You can hear the inflections. 200 00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:33.840 But it does look beautiful, but everything is an angle shot. 201 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.080 And there are whole long shots of the water rising against the 202 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:38.639 rocks and rising against the cliffs. 203 00:10:38.700 --> 00:10:41.460 I would have liked to have seen more than just a conflagration of 204 00:10:41.460 --> 00:10:45.659 somebody's Photoshop page against the backdrop. 205 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:47.759 I know they're time poor, but I really think this could have been 206 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.960 the most richly visual story of the season with very little 207 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:54.059 technical requisites in it. 208 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:55.860 You could have just pointed the camera at all the interesting 209 00:10:55.860 --> 00:10:56.759 things going on. 210 00:10:56.820 --> 00:11:01.620 I think that we have a problem where this 2 parter means that we 211 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:08.340 have 4 fairly kind of dark and dreary looking episodes in a row. 212 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.700 I just kind of think, let's turn the lights up somewhere for a 213 00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:14.039 change or do you remember the colour green? 214 00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:15.899 I love that, you know? 215 00:11:15.899 --> 00:11:18.659 That's right. 216 00:11:18.659 --> 00:11:20.279 I made exactly the same note, Nathan. 217 00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:21.179 It's funny. 218 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:25.139 It's just this string of gray murky nighttime stories and it saps 219 00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:28.139 the season's energy as surely as that string of night shoots did 220 00:11:28.139 --> 00:11:29.220 in David Tennant. 221 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.700 I don't have a problem with that, though. 222 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.639 I think it adds to the sort of the overall dark flavour of it. 223 00:11:35.700 --> 00:11:40.919 Yeah, I just think there's a sort of sameness and we commented on 224 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:44.700 the curse of the black spot episode where we make the choice to 225 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:48.480 exchange an exciting pirate ship for some pretty dreary space 226 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:50.820 corridors about halfway through. 227 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:58.379 And I do think that, you know, the locations do look great, but 228 00:11:58.379 --> 00:12:02.039 there is a kind of washed out flatness to the whole thing, which I 229 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:06.059 think actually ends up making it a bit less fun. 230 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.960 I think flatness is the wrong word. 231 00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:10.980 Colourless. 232 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:11.279 Yes. 233 00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:16.679 I think it's drained of colour and I think that's fine because it 234 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:17.399 does make a change. 235 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:20.279 I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on in the impossible 236 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:24.960 astronaut. two-parter and so on and yeah, you're right. 237 00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:30.299 Look, maybe it's just the accidental nature of having consecutive 238 00:12:30.299 --> 00:12:32.700 episodes that are like this rather than anything deliberate. 239 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:34.860 And at the time it's realised it's too late. 240 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:39.120 And I'm kind of, I kind of forgive that kind of thing, even though 241 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:40.019 I take your point. 242 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:42.840 I'm fine with monochromatic Doctor Who. 243 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:44.759 Yes. 244 00:12:44.820 --> 00:12:49.259 Yeah, we had those so many years there with hardly any colour in 245 00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:49.559 them. 246 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.120 Is that the reason that all the episodes of the Dominators looks 247 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:54.539 the same? 248 00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:59.759 I think being set in a series of murky chambers kind of undoes the 249 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:03.179 story a little bit and undermines the direction because in a 250 00:13:03.179 --> 00:13:06.419 doppelganger story, it's paramount that you'd be really clear 251 00:13:06.419 --> 00:13:09.419 which set of characters you're with and where you are. 252 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:12.899 And I think the fact that all of the chambers look the same undoes 253 00:13:12.899 --> 00:13:14.279 that and makes it confusing. 254 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:17.759 No, but it isn't the point that we can't tell the difference. 255 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:19.980 So we might not be able to tell the difference between the 2 of 256 00:13:19.980 --> 00:13:20.220 them. 257 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.919 So in some respects, dressing them all in the same kind of hive 258 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:27.179 these inspired sort of outfits. communicates that more. 259 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.220 We don't want to know who to. 260 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:30.779 And then we have the acid suits. 261 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:31.980 That's nice to start with. 262 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.320 And the same way is, you know, it's nice that we don't know 263 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:36.840 Cleaves is the gang of Cleaves at the start. 264 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.200 But then it just becomes confusing as you go on. 265 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:42.840 It's just like, it's almost with now. and who am I looking at? 266 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:46.620 If it's confusing, in a particular instance, it's meant to be 267 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:47.100 confusing. 268 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:51.000 We are meant to not be sure whether this is the real or whether 269 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:51.600 this is the ganger. 270 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:53.700 Organic. 271 00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:55.679 Does that make for a satisfying viewing experience? 272 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:57.480 Absolutely. 273 00:13:57.539 --> 00:13:58.559 That's the whole point. 274 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.799 I actually found it kind of refreshing that everyone is in the 275 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:16.740 same outfits, and they are a bit like they're wearing high vis. 276 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:22.559 I think it was a fine idea to do like Waters of Mars an impossible 277 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.100 planet as, you know, they're all basically wearing contemporary 278 00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:29.159 like our contemporary clothing on this, you know, science fiction 279 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:35.580 base, partly to make it feel a bit more real and not to spacey. 280 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.720 Um, but I was kind of, I liked the fact that they are, they look 281 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.559 like they're dressed in something that one might wear when working 282 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:44.940 in a dangerous environment. 283 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.539 And I think, you know, do we want that every week? 284 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:51.480 No, but I think given the fact that we've had so many episodes 285 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:54.480 where people have been wearing contemporary street clothes, I 286 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:55.620 think that this makes a nice change. 287 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:59.279 If we're talking about reproductions of humans and what makes you 288 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.580 a person, We do touch on the notions of slavery. 289 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:03.659 Of course, there's a lot in this. 290 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.139 I'm also interested that they're pasty white. rather than have a 291 00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:07.379 colour. 292 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:12.899 So there's all sorts of levels of, of the underclass and how they 293 00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:14.220 work and what sentience is. 294 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:15.299 There's lots of science fiction. 295 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:16.740 Can we say tropes in this episode? 296 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:18.419 No, I'm here. 297 00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:28.080 But yeah, but we go back to Benjamin again who talked about the 298 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:34.320 aura of reproductions and how a copy is diminished because it is 299 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:35.639 never going to be the original. 300 00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:40.620 And Amy actually partly quotes or or, um, might say, yeah 301 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:43.799 Benjamin's own words when she talks about, you're the, um, you're 302 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:44.460 the original doctor. 303 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:45.840 I know, I know which is which. 304 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:47.039 There's a quality of you. 305 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:50.580 Anyway, it's paraphrasing Benjamin's own essay. 306 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.659 Uh, and I think that Graham's, has anyone seen Nash's 2 ashes? 307 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:55.440 No. 308 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.840 Graham's other heat at the time. 309 00:15:57.899 --> 00:15:59.100 He's a good writer. 310 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:02.519 And he does explore themes within his writing. 311 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:06.779 I think that's something that Stephen Moffat appreciates in his 312 00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:07.860 writer's guild. 313 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.159 They um, he likes people who have more to say than what's 314 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.899 necessarily on the screen at the one time. 315 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.399 And I think this story. 316 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:15.899 I agree with you all. 317 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.980 It has a certain flatness when you look at it as a TV episode, and 318 00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:23.039 I don't think the direction helps for that, but thematically, it's 319 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:24.000 terribly interesting. 320 00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:29.100 And then it, if you want to posit it, Benjamin talked about art or 321 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:33.299 any reproduction of the aesthetic is boulderized or diminished 322 00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:37.620 under late model capitalism, which he says is fascism, that the 323 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:41.879 control of the autonomy of any person is completely directed by 324 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:47.519 outside sources, and therefore we live in a state of artificiality 325 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:51.539 and our own aesthetic and our own aura is subsumed by the nature 326 00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:55.799 of how we move and how we live, and of course he was, um, He was a 327 00:16:55.799 --> 00:17:00.179 victim of the 2nd World War and, um, and suffered terribly through 328 00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:00.480 it. 329 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:02.940 But he's his writings and his thinking. 330 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:07.559 I really do believe her in this story and they like your opinions 331 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.759 on that because I'm starting to tire myself with my own voice 332 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:12.180 here. 333 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.660 But I just want to know if you take on that. 334 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:16.140 Yeah. 335 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.059 Richard, I'd agree with you. 336 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:19.680 I think the premise is reasonably interesting. 337 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.539 I think there are some themes at work here. 338 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:24.960 Is that sort of perennial Doctor Who idea of whether a person is 339 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.359 just the sum of their memories or not. 340 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.240 Um, there's a there's a whole lot of sources here. 341 00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:31.440 There's some Blade Runner there. 342 00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:35.400 I was going to say, that's clearly inspired by Avatar as well. 343 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:40.619 And and we know that Moffat discussed Avatar as a... with Much 344 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:41.279 with Graham. 345 00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:44.759 Yeah, as an impetus for this writing, yeah. 346 00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:48.660 I think Stephen also mentioned the thing as something that they 347 00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:49.319 were drawing on. 348 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:53.400 And Wales Frankenstein, the scene with the lightning over the 349 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:53.940 crucible. 350 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:54.779 Yeah, absolutely. 351 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:55.319 Yeah. 352 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:55.740 Yeah. 353 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.480 Beautifully done, actually. 354 00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:00.599 Mind you, mentioning any of those things is drawing a pretty long 355 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.599 bow in terms of their visceral impact compared with this. 356 00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:06.839 It's like saying time lashes like the work of HG Wells. 357 00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:08.640 Well, yes it is, but no, it isn't. 358 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:14.220 I think I think that comparing this to Timelash is somewhat 359 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:15.000 unfair. 360 00:18:15.059 --> 00:18:15.839 Okay. 361 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:19.319 Oh, Simon, you know what, actually, do compare this to Time Lash 362 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:20.579 unfavourably. 363 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:23.160 Outrageous. 364 00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:29.160 Let me pick up on some of that because I do think that there is a 365 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:35.099 clearer attempt that a critique of the exploitation of workers. 366 00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:40.559 Our very 1st scene is a horrific industrial accident that we don't 367 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.039 really care about, that no one is sort of particularly upset by. 368 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:48.059 We have everyone in high vis, as Simon points out. 369 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.180 We have a range of regional accents. 370 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:58.440 We see that the workers have to kind of bundy on and off. 371 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:01.380 It's not kind of emphasised in the direction or the script 372 00:19:01.380 --> 00:19:04.380 particularly, but there's a thing called the metre that they have 373 00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:07.680 to kind of clock on and off to, you know, register how much time 374 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.299 they've been spending. 375 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.740 And I think we'll talk more about this next week when we do the 376 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:18.839 2nd episode because I think it actually fails. 377 00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:21.839 I don't think it's a successful critique. 378 00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:28.319 It's partly because it's kind of muddled because partly because 379 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:33.839 the workers and the people exploiting them are the same group of 380 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:39.839 people, but also because it does the usual Doctor Who thing of not 381 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:43.859 wanting anyone to be too rebellious in these situations, or 382 00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:45.119 they'll turn into a villain. 383 00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:49.859 And so, so we will get on to that more next week, but I do think 384 00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:54.000 that that there is a very clear intention of doing that. 385 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:59.880 And I guess it's in the kind of robots of death tradition of 386 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.779 portraying a sort of slave uprising and then ultimately getting it 387 00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:04.559 horribly wrong. 388 00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:08.220 At least the doctor is not unequivocally on the side of the 389 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:08.940 oppressor. 390 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.759 No, and that is very different here, and I really, really think 391 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.700 that there's something particularly good about that. 392 00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:21.779 And I do think too, that the way that we encounter the characters 393 00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:25.140 after the big storm is really great. 394 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:30.900 So, you know, um, buzzer, Dickon and Jimmy are all in their 395 00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:37.140 harnesses, so we know that they're them, but we encounter Cleaves 396 00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:40.559 quite early on and she's sort of clearly confused. 397 00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:46.259 And we encountered Jenny, both out of their harnesses, and it 398 00:20:46.259 --> 00:20:48.059 turns out they're both gangers. 399 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:49.740 And did you understand? 400 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:54.660 Do you know the scene in the dining hall where the doctor heats up 401 00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:58.680 some food in the microwave and then hands it to Cleaves to test 402 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.140 whether she's a ganger or not. 403 00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:03.960 She doesn't realise she's a ganger at that point. 404 00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:04.680 Is that right? 405 00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:06.539 100%. 406 00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:08.819 She doesn't realise she's a ganger. 407 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.880 And Jennifer certainly doesn't realise she's a ganga at all. 408 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.559 Neither of them do. 409 00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:16.680 And I think that's, but I think that's one of the things that I 410 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.980 sort of really love about it in that they, it's only when it's 411 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:24.000 pointed out to them, that they're, the duplicate, the ganger. 412 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:27.599 And then something inside that goes, 0 my god. 413 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:32.099 Um, I'm the fake one and yet I feel like I'm the real one. 414 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.420 And that's kind of what sends them a bit a bit crazy or at least 415 00:21:36.420 --> 00:21:42.480 because they know that they would want to destroy themselves. 416 00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:43.259 Do you know what I mean? 417 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.900 So there's that they're probably in an internal conflict. 418 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:48.779 And there's probably a certain amount of inner hatred there too, if 419 00:21:48.779 --> 00:21:49.799 you wanted to extrapolate. 420 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:50.880 I mean maybe it's going a bit far. 421 00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:52.200 But that kind of self-loathing. 422 00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:53.880 Oh my god, I'm the fake, I'm the fake. 423 00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:57.000 I think that's actually quite well done in both in both instances 424 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:57.299 there. 425 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:00.720 And it's good that we don't do it and it's good that we don't do 426 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:01.319 it for everyone. 427 00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:03.359 We just do it for 2 and then and then that's enough. 428 00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:09.960 Yes, it's an excellent observation and also touches very nicely on 429 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.359 the um, position of the fan. 430 00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:18.180 And how we are as observers of ourselves. 431 00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:19.079 Yes, there you go. 432 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.319 Self-loathing is of the heart of the fandom. 433 00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:23.160 Is that what you're saying? 434 00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:24.960 Very much so. 435 00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:26.700 I would hope so anyway. 436 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:32.880 I mean, it's terrifying conceptually because, because the, you 437 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.220 know, something about the subjectivity of the, of the people 438 00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:40.380 involved that they, their experience is that they are a human 439 00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:45.119 being up until the point of the storm and then suddenly they've 440 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.319 been turned into monsters. 441 00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:49.380 That's what it feels like to them because they have all of the 442 00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:56.220 memories that their originals have, but suddenly now they're kind 443 00:22:56.220 --> 00:23:02.460 of disposable industrial tools. 444 00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:05.940 And they're no longer sort of part of our moral community in a way 445 00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:08.279 it's all right to kill them. 446 00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:12.299 And the doctor kind of intervenes and sort of demonstrates, no 447 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:12.779 that's wrong. 448 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:13.980 That's the wrong attitude. 449 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:14.400 Look at them. 450 00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:15.180 They're people. 451 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.799 They are literally you. 452 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:20.220 And so they are part of your moral community. 453 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:24.779 But that's not how, you know, we automatically react to them, I 454 00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:25.079 think. 455 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.140 And one of the one of the successes, I think, in the 456 00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:30.960 characterisation is, say, the difference between the way that 457 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.059 Jimmy reacts to his ganger, which is he pretty soon realises that 458 00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:39.119 they're the same person and there's one scene where they're about 459 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.339 to go off together to hunt for Jennifer. 460 00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:46.140 And they seem to be kind of willing to work together and that will 461 00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:47.640 obviously develop next episode. 462 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:53.279 And then you have Cleves, who says, no, this is industrial 463 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:58.319 equipment owned by the company that has gone rogue and it's okay 464 00:23:58.319 --> 00:23:59.160 to kill them. 465 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.940 The quicker we put things back to the way they were, the better. 466 00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:07.859 I mean, this actually touches on what you're saying about, I can't 467 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:09.960 remember the character's name, funnily enough, the Scottish guy 468 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:10.619 with the king. 469 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.240 I mean, Jimmy. 470 00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:14.940 It's Jimmy's even got a Jimmy name. 471 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.339 It is that sort of thing. 472 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.259 I mean, going back to the characterisations being poor. 473 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:24.240 I mean, they just throw in the thing with the kid, his son to use 474 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:29.099 that as a way of making him communicate with his ganger in a way 475 00:24:29.099 --> 00:24:31.740 that makes him realise what you just said, that, oh, he's actually 476 00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:33.839 a fully functioning entity. 477 00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:37.079 Just going back to the sort of the, the thing about the, the sort 478 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:39.539 of the workers' rights or slave oppression or whatever it was you 479 00:24:39.539 --> 00:24:42.299 were sort of talking about, it's, yes, it is, but not quite in the 480 00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:46.259 way I think you said, because it's kind of complex because the 481 00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:48.180 gangers are like the industrial equipment. 482 00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:52.859 So you can't really suggest that the people working there are in 483 00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:55.559 some way an oppressed working class. 484 00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:58.920 There's a suggestion that they're being reasonably paid. 485 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:00.960 Yes, it's hard work, it's a terrible work day. 486 00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:01.859 It's dangerous work. 487 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.180 They have to do it for a long period of time. 488 00:25:03.299 --> 00:25:06.059 But they kind of, and they're looking forward to, to it being 489 00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:06.299 over. 490 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.180 It's more like a sort of an ood situation. 491 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:12.599 Like, the gangers are sort of like the ood, uh, in a thirst, we 492 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:15.000 sort of treat them as disposable doesn't matter. 493 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:17.160 They're just they're cattle, basically. 494 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:21.180 But nevertheless, the gangers are created by the company or by 495 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:25.559 whatever the technology is to make it actually safer for the 496 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:26.759 workers to do their job. 497 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:31.140 So it's it's kind of, I like it because it's not actually clear. 498 00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:35.880 Yeah, you see, I I dislike it because I think it is a little bit 499 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:36.480 muddy. 500 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:41.400 I'm not suggesting that the, um, the people working on the base 501 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:44.160 are, the oppressed class. 502 00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:49.740 I think the gang, the gangers are, um, because the doctor shows us 503 00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:55.319 that in fact, even before the storm happens, and the gangers come 504 00:25:55.319 --> 00:26:01.140 to life, magically like in Frankenstein, um, that the gangers are 505 00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:06.299 absorbing the personalities and memories of the people that 506 00:26:06.299 --> 00:26:07.920 they're called on to imitate. 507 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:13.799 And so the flesh, that sort of big puddle of, it's horrible, isn't 508 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:13.920 it? 509 00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:15.900 sort of like milk with hair in it or something. 510 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:17.279 It's super upsetting looking. 511 00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:22.319 Um, that that has actually acquired a measure of sentience and, and 512 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:24.059 it has the ability to suffer. 513 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:28.440 And in fact, we're told that the way that the gangers are set up 514 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:34.920 is that the pain they experience is not conveyed through the 515 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.500 harnesses to their operators. 516 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.079 And so it's very expendable. 517 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:41.759 They can be destroyed. 518 00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:43.680 There's an unlimited supply of them. 519 00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:48.900 We just treat them like forklifts or something like that. 520 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.700 In fact, I think that comparison's explicitly made, isn't it, in 521 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:55.500 the script. think so, yeah. 522 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:56.160 Yeah. 523 00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:00.059 It is worst, worst Delia Smith pudding. 524 00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:03.660 It certainly didn't set correctly. 525 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:05.940 No. 526 00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:08.819 You're meant to wear a hair nest for you. 527 00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:13.500 Reminds you of the milk you got at school. 528 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.400 I think there are some really good ideas in motion here, but I 529 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:36.180 don't think it helps. 530 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:37.680 There's two things I don't think help. 531 00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:41.220 One is that the pivotal moment that puts the humans and their 532 00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:43.799 gangers at war is pretty simplistically rendered. 533 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:48.839 So it should have been tragic and regretful that Cleaves kills 534 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:50.579 someone to set this whole thing in motion. 535 00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:52.680 But instead, we don't dwell on that. 536 00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:55.799 Instead, 2 scenes later, both groups are chanting us and them, us 537 00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:56.279 and them. 538 00:27:56.339 --> 00:27:59.579 And so you reach that point really quickly and kind of a bit 539 00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:00.720 uninterestingly. 540 00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:06.299 But the other thing, I think, is that the gangers aren't rendered 541 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:07.140 that well, I think. 542 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.339 I think they look a bit comical, and they're not uncanny valley 543 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:11.640 enough. 544 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:14.700 Um, they needed to be something where you would look at them and 545 00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:17.339 they really did look like the originals with just something a 546 00:28:17.339 --> 00:28:19.859 little bit off, whereas in fact they just look like Odo off Deep 547 00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:20.400 Space 9. 548 00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:25.859 Like the makeup is almost designed to kind of like it deliberately 549 00:28:25.859 --> 00:28:28.619 removes their facial features. 550 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:34.140 Like it makes them look less like the people that they're 551 00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:39.059 imitating, um, with some exceptions, there's some good stuff with 552 00:28:39.059 --> 00:28:44.640 Jennifer, where they just kind of make her pale and give her the 553 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:45.839 sort of veins and stuff. 554 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:48.180 And that's when they're emphasising. 555 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:52.980 There's a beautiful moment where she starts weeping and her face 556 00:28:52.980 --> 00:28:56.700 goes from being just that sort of pale white to sort of being 557 00:28:56.700 --> 00:28:59.279 fully human, which I think is sort of very well done. 558 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.740 And like maybe that's intentional as well. 559 00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:05.880 Like the fact that the gang of makeup obscures the, the, the 560 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:09.960 features of the people in a story about identity. 561 00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:15.000 That's the example, his exact example I was going to give, maybe 562 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.259 they should have looked like that sequence with Jennifer, the gang 563 00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:21.720 of Jennifer, with the, you know, where she's just, it's more 564 00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:26.039 subtle, the, the, um, imperfections of her, uh, to make, to make 565 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:27.059 it clear. she's a ganger. 566 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:30.960 I'd be curious to know why that's the only sequence that a ganger 567 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:31.619 looks like that. 568 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.980 Whereas in all the other sequence where the gangers look like 569 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:35.339 gangs. 570 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:39.000 They are the Odo sort of the wet looking Odo version. 571 00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:41.759 Do you notice, though, too, that, and this is particularly when 572 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.819 they, you know, after the us and them sequence, and they, and they 573 00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:48.000 all, the gangers all go off into their hide away, wherever it is. 574 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:50.700 It's like they're evil. 575 00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.240 They plot the destruction of the humans when they look like Odo. 576 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:59.700 Uh, and when they go into full human form, is when they seem more 577 00:29:59.700 --> 00:30:03.660 reasonable and um, uh, and and are able to sort of talk about, well 578 00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:07.079 yes, maybe we can, we can, we can all get on. 579 00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:11.039 Uh, I don't know whether that's deliberate or accidental, but it 580 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.859 is a bit sort of um, an interesting choice. 581 00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:17.700 It's like Bruton in Terror of the Zygons. 582 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:22.440 He has all the dry wis of the, uh, of whoever is impersonating. 583 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.839 Yes, exactly. but not as himself. 584 00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:26.759 Yes, yes, yes. 585 00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:27.660 Yes. 586 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:29.759 He absorbs that bit of the personality. 587 00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:30.960 It's curious. 588 00:30:31.019 --> 00:30:34.619 Giving them the odo look and all that, I think is, is more a 589 00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:38.519 choice about, let's make them look a bit horrific and, you know, a 590 00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:40.619 bit subhuman and a bit, all the rest of it, just to sort of scare 591 00:30:40.619 --> 00:30:43.680 the kids, get the action figure set out. whatever it is. 592 00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:47.220 And so I think that's why those sorts of choices are made rather 593 00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:47.759 than. 594 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.220 I suppose what I'm saying. 595 00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:54.299 I think we tried to read too much into it by wondering why they 596 00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:54.779 did that. 597 00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:55.559 It's obvious. 598 00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:57.539 They just wanted to have a monster. something that looks like a 599 00:30:57.539 --> 00:30:57.839 monster. 600 00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:00.119 I think that's absolutely right. 601 00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:00.720 Yeah. 602 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:06.359 In a story which is already struggling to sell its, its themes 603 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.640 it's another thing that muddies the waters a little bit, I think. 604 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.119 Or does it help us identify what is the other? 605 00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:13.500 Yeah. 606 00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:16.980 In that, those, all those things that you've said, those, those 607 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:21.720 slices on the slide under the microscope and yet they have an 608 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.019 aorta, they have, they apparently have a functioning pulmonary 609 00:31:25.019 --> 00:31:25.559 system. 610 00:31:25.619 --> 00:31:26.279 He had a heart. 611 00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:29.400 I'm still not sure whether that's the original or the copy in that 612 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:29.640 scene. 613 00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:33.420 Obviously, it's the copy, but there's a point that, yes, they 614 00:31:33.420 --> 00:31:37.019 become more monstrous as they lose the face, but then you see a 615 00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:40.079 human face, but then you see other scenes where the originals, you 616 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.119 might say, the original, you might say. 617 00:31:44.339 --> 00:31:46.140 I'm so sorry. 618 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:50.519 He's equally if not more monstrous in there in their drives 619 00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:52.500 especially with cleaves. 620 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.440 Should we throw in that Raquel Cassidy's mother named her after 621 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:59.039 Raquel Welsh, because she was a fan of all of those of all of 622 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.220 those Bob Hope Christmas specials. 623 00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:04.319 I think that that would cause anger in itself. 624 00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:07.440 Originally funny, just pick up on that because that's actually a 625 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.099 very interesting point. 626 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:11.940 I think maybe we do need to see them as a bit of a monster and a 627 00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:16.440 bit ugly in order to remind us that they're not real, not the 628 00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.480 originals, but we still need to care for them. 629 00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:19.619 So I think I think you're right. 630 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.480 There is a bit of the rills from Galaxy 4. 631 00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:25.740 We need to have a bit of ugly there to make us question, oh, you 632 00:32:25.740 --> 00:32:28.380 know, can we accept these people as real, genuine people? 633 00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:30.480 Yeah, I agree. 634 00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:34.680 I think that's sort of part of the horror, part of the terrible 635 00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:35.700 thing that's happened to them. 636 00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:40.559 You know, they've been othered by this sort of industrial accident 637 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:45.000 and suddenly they're kind of a bit disgusting and monstrous. 638 00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:51.180 And I do think that one of the things that that can do is to 639 00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:52.799 elicit sympathy for them. 640 00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:58.500 And I think it does do that with Jen, but the problem is she is 641 00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.799 such a kind of thoroughgoing monster that it's a problem. 642 00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:04.740 I think it's a little bit like, you know, Doctor Who and the 643 00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:09.480 Silurians, which is brilliant, and please don't, uh, said you hate 644 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:09.839 mail. 645 00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:11.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 646 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:12.299 That's right. 647 00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:12.839 Send it. 648 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:14.039 Please don't blow up your base. 649 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.220 You know, the one of the problems with the Silurians is that the 650 00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:24.240 premise is that they're people, but they just very quickly turn 651 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.220 into monsters who want to just kill us all. 652 00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:30.779 And that's a bit of a shame because that premise gets slightly 653 00:33:30.779 --> 00:33:31.440 thrown away. 654 00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:35.519 And I think that this story kind of suffers from that a bit as 655 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:36.059 well. 656 00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:41.759 But in both instances, it's not because the Saudi Urians or the 657 00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:44.160 gangers are innately monsters. 658 00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:49.740 It's because of internal political shenanigans that make, in the 659 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:53.220 Southerins case, convince them that they have to, you know, they 660 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:58.019 overthrow the peace-loving leader so that the warmonger can get on 661 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:01.019 with it and destroy humanity, sort of similarly with the gangers. 662 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:03.480 You've got some of them. they're discussing, or what can we do? 663 00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:06.480 Should we try and, you know, get together or and then they go, no 664 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:07.140 we have to destroy them. 665 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.000 So they're not just acting as a block. 666 00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:11.880 And they do split up into factionettes quite quickly. 667 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:19.320 I also think too, that it's a little bit like last year's Silurian 668 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:24.420 Supato, where one side murdering someone from the other side 669 00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:28.199 actually is a kind of, you know, inciting moment. 670 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:33.960 Please, I hope you're not suggesting that this is as bad. as that 671 00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:34.619 two-parter. 672 00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:36.360 Uh no. 673 00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:38.159 Well, there we are then. 674 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:38.579 Okay. 675 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.519 Fear her channelled through Chris Chipnall. 676 00:34:41.579 --> 00:34:42.059 How could it go wrong? 677 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.219 One of the things that we haven't discussed this far into our 678 00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:03.300 episode is the Dr. Amy and Rory. 679 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:10.679 Um, and I actually think that this 2 parter kind of has an 680 00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:13.079 interesting role in this half season. 681 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:20.340 Because the doctor is clearly lying to Amy and Rory about what's 682 00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:20.820 going on. 683 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:24.960 And so in that opening scene in the TARDIS, which has a 684 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:29.519 spectacularly good diagetic music choice, I have to say, the 685 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:34.019 doctor is going to drop Amy and Rory off so they can get fish and 686 00:35:34.019 --> 00:35:37.139 chips because he has something that he wants to do and he doesn't 687 00:35:37.139 --> 00:35:38.039 want them to come with him. 688 00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:43.380 And when Amy says to him, I want to be where you are when you're 689 00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:47.340 doing this thing, he looks at her really super weirdly. 690 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:51.119 And the opening of the episode has him looking again at the 691 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:56.400 quantum pregnancy screen, which he seems to be doing a lot of for 692 00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.719 our benefit, I presume. 693 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:02.760 So it's very clear that he already knows that Amy is a ganger and 694 00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.019 that he is here to find out more about them, but he actually lies 695 00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:07.920 to them about that. 696 00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:14.460 And I do think that this is one of the points where Matt Smith's 697 00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:18.119 doctor actually becomes sort of quite devious and unlikeable. 698 00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:22.440 Well, this is kind of he's showing his Sue Ester McCoy new 699 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:25.380 adventures kind of persona at this point. 700 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:26.460 But I never have a problem with that. 701 00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:31.739 I think it, um, it accelerates a problem with Amy this season in 702 00:36:31.739 --> 00:36:35.039 that a lot of the joy has been sucked out of her character, and I 703 00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:36.840 know that there are plot reasons for this. 704 00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:39.059 You know, the doctor is looking at Amy in a super weird way 705 00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:41.400 because of the thing that's going on in the ark. 706 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:45.360 Um, But there's just not that same sparkle that they had last 707 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:45.659 year. 708 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:49.500 And I think it's a problem for just the enjoyment of watching it 709 00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:50.400 episode to episode. 710 00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:57.420 I think that there is a problem here. where our regulars actually 711 00:36:57.420 --> 00:37:00.059 aren't all that fun anymore. 712 00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:02.460 No, that's yeah. 713 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.940 Yeah, and I think I think in some ways it makes the episode 714 00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:08.760 unpleasant to watch because it's a little bit unrelenting. 715 00:37:08.820 --> 00:37:12.480 And even though we've thrown some dusty Springfield in the 716 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:14.940 beginning, which, you know, awesome. 717 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:19.019 There's precious little kind of fun or whimsy to be had. 718 00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:21.900 And maybe that's okay. 719 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:25.079 Maybe last week and the week before were sort of fun and whimsical 720 00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:29.099 and this is kind of the dark serious 2 parter. 721 00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:33.000 But I still think it could be more fun. 722 00:37:33.059 --> 00:37:36.119 I think there's more fun to be had next week, actually, to be 723 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:37.739 honest, but I agree. 724 00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:39.000 With the game doctor, yeah. 725 00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:40.800 Yeah, I think this is a little bit miserable. 726 00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:45.000 And not only do you have the doctor being a bit strained with Amy 727 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.539 and Rory, but this episode makes Amy and Rory strained as well. 728 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:53.519 And so, if I'm honest, the Rory Jennifer Link is a bit weird. 729 00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:55.679 I don't think it's sold in the script at all. 730 00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:58.559 I don't worry if we're meant to think that Rory is actually a bit 731 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:01.920 attracted to Jennifer or if he's just giving care to her. 732 00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:06.119 Um, she's all over him with kind of the kisses because he's the 733 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:09.059 only man who's ever shown her any kindness, which is a bit gross. 734 00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:12.059 I just think the script fumbles this. 735 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:15.659 It drives a wedge between Amy and Rory. 736 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:19.320 Whereas actually a friendship between Rory and Jennifer, a proper 737 00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:21.179 friendship would have been the way to go. 738 00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:25.800 I think there's a little moment where Amy visibly gives Rory 739 00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:26.340 permission. 740 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:29.039 So they make eye contact. 741 00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:30.300 That's a very nice moment. 742 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:31.920 Yeah, that's a very nice moment. 743 00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:33.480 And after that it goes a bit wrong. 744 00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:34.980 Yeah, it does. 745 00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:38.159 I think that might be a little bit of the way it's played. 746 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.440 I agree with you, but sort of not, not overly. 747 00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:48.300 I think it's, I think my reading of it is that Rory is attracted 748 00:38:48.300 --> 00:38:54.000 to Jennifer, uh, because, you know, for whatever reason, and he 749 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.280 but he knows that it's not, nothing's going to happen and he has 750 00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:58.019 no intention of anything is going to happen. 751 00:38:58.079 --> 00:38:59.400 He's certainly not going to stray. 752 00:38:59.460 --> 00:39:03.780 But I kind of see, he's got a little bit of guilt about the fact 753 00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:06.420 that, yes, he's a little bit attracted, attracted to her, but he's 754 00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:09.119 got to care for her because she's, you know, upset, distraught, and 755 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:09.659 all the rest of it. 756 00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:13.739 So I sort of think that works by making it a little bit ambiguous 757 00:39:13.739 --> 00:39:16.739 that you're not entirely sure where it's going to go because 758 00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:19.380 that's kind of often what life is like in this regard. 759 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:23.639 Yeah He certainly does seem to be being shunted off into a sort of 760 00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:24.360 side plot. 761 00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:28.500 He's kind of NISA assembling an android back in the TARDIS or 762 00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:30.059 something in this episode. 763 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:33.659 It's a good way of actually splitting up the regulars because one 764 00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:37.079 of the things that, especially when you've got 2 companions, is 765 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:38.519 that you want to be able to split the team up. 766 00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:43.559 And I think that's just a method of the Jennifer subplot as a way 767 00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:44.760 of getting Rory away from the others. 768 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:49.980 It does lead him to do kind of things that are irrational so that 769 00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:54.539 he doesn't join them in the room at the end of the episode. 770 00:39:54.659 --> 00:39:55.619 But it's integral to it. 771 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:56.880 It's integral to his character. 772 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.420 It's organic because everything that Rory does is empathetic. 773 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:04.679 Everything that he, and he's, he's so troubled by the fraternal 774 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.900 paternal feelings he has for Jen. 775 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:07.980 I don't believe there's any. 776 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:09.480 Oh, and of course he's a boy. 777 00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.099 There's going to be some level of attraction. 778 00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:14.880 We've already read that, but then there's all of that guilt that 779 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:15.480 goes into it. 780 00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:20.400 I believe he's trying to, um, a parent and, in, indeed. 781 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:24.179 And he's so guilty about it, which which is a much a very 782 00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:27.179 necessary moment of humour in this episode. 783 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.500 Nathan, do you think there's an element of Taranton Perry from the 784 00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:34.739 Blake 7 episode Assassin, where the man just wants to take care of 785 00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:35.460 the helpless woman. 786 00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:39.960 The place that it does pay off is in that bathroom scene, which I 787 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:42.840 think is really good, because that makes it clear that Jen doesn't 788 00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:46.380 know that she is a ganger until she sees herself in the mirror and 789 00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:49.980 then vomits up, you know, some slime. 790 00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:50.820 Yeah, yeah. 791 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:55.440 And then she turns into like that weird snake thing. 792 00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:59.460 Yeah, that's, that's, and that was a poor choice at this, at this 793 00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:00.840 time of the story, I think. 794 00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:04.079 She turns into a monster too soon. 795 00:41:04.139 --> 00:41:05.039 Yeah, yeah. 796 00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:08.280 And there's no rational reason for that, at least at this point. 797 00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:10.619 She needs to get a bit more demented before. 798 00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:13.320 I'm a little bit on board with the face on the stalk, but I'm not 799 00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:17.400 really on board with the big fist. just looks bizarre. 800 00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:19.320 We don't really properly see it. 801 00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:21.179 What are they trying to do, Terminator 2, aren't they? 802 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:25.619 I like the grotesqueness of it and we will get more of that next 803 00:41:25.619 --> 00:41:25.920 week. 804 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:30.719 It is sort of super grotesque in a way that's nearly comical. 805 00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:34.260 And I'm not sure the special effects are quite up to it, but, you 806 00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:36.059 know, if I wanted to complain about that. 807 00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:37.260 I'm watching the rock show. 808 00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:40.260 Watch your mouth out there. 809 00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:45.900 I think there's a very salient. plot reason that Jennifer is the 810 00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:51.480 1st to go AWOL, which is the only real person to show genuine 811 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:55.380 sympathy for the gangers in those 1st few moments of the of the 812 00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:55.739 episode. 813 00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:59.219 So, you could say that it's a subversive writing that those who 814 00:41:59.219 --> 00:42:01.800 care the most have the most to lose and therefore become the most 815 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:02.639 dangerous. 816 00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:04.860 We were talking about lockdown earlier. 817 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.619 And um, I think I can see some threads here. 818 00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:11.400 And how people behave under suppression and or oppression 819 00:42:11.699 --> 00:42:14.219 especially the most sensitive in the group. 820 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.760 I've seen that both on the far left and the far right. 821 00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:23.519 So perhaps it is yet another little bell to holding up a mirror to 822 00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:24.119 how we behave. 823 00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:28.139 I think this is very well written, and perhaps what it's losing 824 00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:30.900 what we've talked about earlier in the episode is that just 825 00:42:30.900 --> 00:42:34.800 through the process of getting a production onto screen, some of 826 00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:35.460 these subtleties. 827 00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:40.619 We have to question because they're not necessarily evident in the 828 00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:42.239 script and maybe it shouldn't be evident. 829 00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:46.320 Maybe it should be there for us to work out ourselves, the nuances 830 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:49.380 that just as there are nuances in this very conversation. 831 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:53.099 Yeah, I'm happy for things to not be explicit and I'm not, I'm 832 00:42:53.099 --> 00:42:55.619 happy for things to not be explicitly, explicitly portrayed. 833 00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:59.519 And I'm also very happy for different people to get different 834 00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.400 ideas of what might be going on. 835 00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:06.000 Uh, independently, and in fact, you can get slightly different 836 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:07.320 ideas each time you watch it. 837 00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:11.760 Yeah, I think that sort of ambiguity is actually a strength. 838 00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:13.440 Now maybe it's unintentional. 839 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:16.079 Maybe it should have been clearer. 840 00:43:16.139 --> 00:43:21.239 But I don't think the end product is that problematic from that 841 00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:21.599 point of view. 842 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:27.179 I think the ambiguity of it is fine, but this whole story, there's 843 00:43:27.179 --> 00:43:29.940 something missing from, particularly this episode. 844 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.059 I was talking earlier about the sense of the uncanny valley about 845 00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:33.900 the gangers. 846 00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:36.119 The whole thing is like this. 847 00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:39.300 It looks like Doctor Who, but it doesn't feel like it very much to 848 00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:39.480 me. 849 00:43:39.539 --> 00:43:43.679 It feels like the show's wit and warmth are a little bit absent 850 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:44.400 from this episode. 851 00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:45.179 Yeah. 852 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:46.500 Yeah, I think you're right. 853 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:49.559 It's lacking some warmth, but I think there is still wit in this. 854 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.780 I think we're kind of nearing the end of our discussion here. 855 00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.679 So let's talk about the cliffhanger. 856 00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:13.920 How do we feel this one works? 857 00:44:14.699 --> 00:44:16.500 I think it's really good. 858 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:21.659 I love the centrality of, of, Matt of the doctor calling himself 859 00:44:21.659 --> 00:44:22.260 Smith. 860 00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:30.900 Thereby subverting any level, all the levels of the narrative, in 861 00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:34.079 fact, at once and telling us that, you know, that he is living 862 00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:36.840 very much this part of the duality. 863 00:44:36.900 --> 00:44:40.980 And it, I found it, even after several watchings. 864 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:44.699 There is a base spine level disturbance to it. 865 00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:48.780 Matt does that very lovely with but not of creepiness. 866 00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:53.280 With his sugar coated marshmallow piglet face. 867 00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:58.320 It's nice that the end of the episode gives Matt something to do 868 00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:00.960 because I think he's been a bit poorly served throughout the rest 869 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:01.679 of the episode. 870 00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:06.659 Um, all of that dialogue about e- bye-bye gum and that, even he 871 00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:07.440 can't say that. 872 00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:09.119 It's dreadful. 873 00:45:09.179 --> 00:45:12.719 But then, you know, we do get that moment at the end where he 874 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:15.239 comes face to face and you think, well, you know, we're going to 875 00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:17.400 have some more entertaining stuff for next week and I think that's 876 00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:17.760 borne out. 877 00:45:17.820 --> 00:45:22.199 And I think it's very classic who, Cliffhanger, and I think it's 878 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:27.780 it caps off what is effectively quite a classic who story for an 879 00:45:27.780 --> 00:45:28.260 episode. 880 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:33.179 Uh, and I mean that with all the pluses and minuses that one might 881 00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:36.000 be able to uh, infer from that. 882 00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:40.559 All the all the wonderful imperfections about how the episode has 883 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:41.820 been made. 884 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:45.300 Uh, I'm not denying, but I think it's, it's capped off with a 885 00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:49.019 cliffhanger, which summarises that whole thing quite, quite well. 886 00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:19.679 Well, dear listener, we really should head off to the bathroom to 887 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:23.039 fetch a towel right now, but we'll be back next week to see if 888 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:26.039 anyone's going to collapse into a puddle of white goo or anything 889 00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:28.079 in the almost people. 890 00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:32.159 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts 891 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:35.460 and you can keep up with us at flight through entirety on Facebook 892 00:46:35.460 --> 00:46:39.000 at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, flight through 893 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:42.420 entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts 894 00:46:42.420 --> 00:46:44.699 Bondfinger, and Jody Interterterra. 895 00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:49.380 Until next time, remember, you don't have to say you love me, just 896 00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:50.519 stay close at hand. 897 00:46:50.579 --> 00:46:53.159 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 898 00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:54.360 Good night. 899 00:46:54.420 --> 00:46:55.500 Bye for now. 900 00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:56.820 Good and knocked. 901 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:04.380 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter 902 00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:07.500 Griffith, Simon Moore and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by 903 00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:08.340 Cameron Lam. 904 00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:12.059 This episode, centuries of embittered religiosity, was recorded on 905 00:47:12.059 --> 00:47:15.719 the 15th of August 2021 and released on the 10th of October. 906 00:47:16.619 --> 00:47:21.119 Check out our YouTube channel for a how-to video on creating your 907 00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:24.719 own flesh to help you out with unwanted domestic chores, family 908 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:26.579 gatherings, and quality time with the kids. 909 00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:30.780 All you need is some lightly curdled milk, a handful of armpit 910 00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:34.559 hair, and 4 to 5000 human souls damned to eternal perdition. 911 00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:42.179 Can you give me a 2nd because I have Alfie crying and scratching 912 00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:45.360 at the door outside the room, and I don't know whether it will 913 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.199 come over on my track, and plus I'm a very caring pet owner. 914 00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:50.820 So I will go and deal with him. 915 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.420 I'll be back. 916 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:52.739 Okay. 917 00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:57.659 I think it's another quick we. 918 00:47:58.860 --> 00:48:00.900 It's all of these coffees. 919 00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:04.139 It's a longer way. a longer way.