WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:34:26

1
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.780
Hello, dear Lister, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

2
00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:43.560
the only Doctor Who podcast that wants you to stay the hell away

3
00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:45.719
from us with that Sonic screwdriver.

4
00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:47.460
I'm Nathan.

5
00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:48.420
I'm Peter.

6
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:53.159
I'm Simon, and I am a bathtub full of promising blanc mange for

7
00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:53.460
this one.

8
00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:55.259
Richard, you're that every week.

9
00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:00.719
Well, the workers have risen up against us again for some reason

10
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.659
and it looks like the only person who can save us from this

11
00:01:03.659 --> 00:01:07.200
terrifying acid trip is still suffering from the effects of a

12
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.819
particularly nasty facial.

13
00:01:08.819 --> 00:01:13.439
Let's see how this complex political situation can be painlessly

14
00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:17.159
resolved between the people and the almost people.

15
00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:39.120
All right, so, let's talk very quickly, as we are wont to do about

16
00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:40.620
the cliffhanger resolution.

17
00:01:40.739 --> 00:01:44.340
Well, it's one of those cliffhangers that doesn't need a

18
00:01:44.340 --> 00:01:47.159
resolution in the way that's not like a die, doctor, die, kind of

19
00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:47.879
clickhanger.

20
00:01:47.939 --> 00:01:51.000
So I think the resolution is a sort of a continuation of the

21
00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:51.239
story.

22
00:01:51.299 --> 00:01:53.879
It's actually kind of fun in a way.

23
00:01:53.939 --> 00:01:57.420
Yeah we really did need something to get us to tune in next time

24
00:01:57.420 --> 00:01:58.319
after the episode.

25
00:01:58.379 --> 00:02:00.180
Oh how dare you?

26
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.019
I really like it.

27
00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.560
I think that this episode straight off has more to recommend it

28
00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:08.340
than last episode.

29
00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:11.819
I think the Matt's doctor versus doctor interaction is really fun

30
00:02:11.819 --> 00:02:15.659
and plays to his strengths and for all the bitching I've done

31
00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:18.539
about the quality of the direction last episode, I think it's

32
00:02:18.539 --> 00:02:19.199
seamlessly put together.

33
00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:24.360
The actors do seem, I should say, the performers do seem to know I

34
00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.599
have a better handle on what they're doing this time around, don't

35
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:27.780
they?

36
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:31.259
And is that the writing or is that direction or is it just simply

37
00:02:31.259 --> 00:02:33.240
that we've been on the set for a while?

38
00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:36.960
Matt certainly feels, I like Matt's hesitancy.

39
00:02:37.020 --> 00:02:42.539
Although I should say the doctor's hesitancy and his removal from

40
00:02:42.539 --> 00:02:43.740
the drama.

41
00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.639
I do like that he's a spectator in much of this and there's an

42
00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:49.020
uneasiness to that.

43
00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.699
He's not the centre of, and he's certainly not driving the

44
00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:54.539
narrative in this.

45
00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:59.219
When the doctor is sitting back, the stakes, I feel, become higher

46
00:02:59.219 --> 00:03:00.840
because he's not in control.

47
00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:04.680
And for a young person who'd be watching this, I feel that perhaps

48
00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.259
this one felt more fraught because of that.

49
00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:12.060
Although, I mean, the beginning of the episode is an injection of

50
00:03:12.060 --> 00:03:17.520
really much needed fun into the story and having 2 Matt Smiths

51
00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.120
which I would gladly have all the time, you know, from here on in

52
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:21.599
I think.

53
00:03:21.659 --> 00:03:26.039
Matt Smith's equal one Anthony Ainley, because we didn't have

54
00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:28.979
Simon's die doctor die, so we had to...

55
00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:33.780
It's also a case of diminishing returns because Matt playing

56
00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:36.240
against himself here, brilliant, but they'll try the same trick

57
00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:36.900
next season.

58
00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.960
It won't work quite so well No, absolutely.

59
00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:45.300
But I do think that just kind of that sort of delighted admiration

60
00:03:45.300 --> 00:03:49.020
of himself, you know, he's super happy to be in his own company

61
00:03:49.020 --> 00:03:51.599
and he thinks he's really terribly good.

62
00:03:51.659 --> 00:03:54.120
And I think all of that's adorable.

63
00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.000
Yeah, and it's all the false modesty. like, 0 no, thank you.

64
00:03:57.060 --> 00:03:58.080
Oh no, it's okay, you know?

65
00:03:58.139 --> 00:04:00.000
It's really quite fun.

66
00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:03.479
But it is kind of, I mean, I agree that it kind of does introduce

67
00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:06.840
sort of a much needed wit into it because the 1st episode is a

68
00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:09.900
little, is, I wouldn't acknowledge flat for that.

69
00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:12.000
It's like having river salt there.

70
00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:14.819
You have these 2 terribly witty people bantering off each other.

71
00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:15.539
Yeah.

72
00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:17.819
Wouldn't it be great to have the doctor accompanied by the

73
00:04:17.819 --> 00:04:18.000
doctor?

74
00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.040
Yeah, yeah, his travels.

75
00:04:20.819 --> 00:04:23.639
A multi-doctor story with the same actor.

76
00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:25.079
Basically, with the same doctor.

77
00:04:25.139 --> 00:04:27.480
Yeah, and we tried that last in Journey's end.

78
00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:29.579
And it's conspicuous how better this works.

79
00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.860
Yes, well, that goes without saying.

80
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:32.939
Oh, fine.

81
00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:35.339
No, but it does.

82
00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:38.160
I think it does because they're actually playing against each

83
00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:38.519
other.

84
00:04:38.579 --> 00:04:42.240
And I mean, my favourite bits of multi-doctor stories is not all

85
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:44.160
the doctors being in their own silos.

86
00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:45.600
It's when they are talking to each other.

87
00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.259
And this is what you've got a lot of straight straight off.

88
00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:52.319
You've got the 2 Matt Smiths having the beautiful double X. And I

89
00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.839
love, one thing we haven't covered is I love the, you know, when

90
00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:59.100
the gang adopter is becoming fully formed, you know, all of the

91
00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:02.279
the one day I shall come back has to kind of leak out and the John

92
00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:03.540
Flam and so on like that.

93
00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.120
But it is funny that the one day I...

94
00:05:06.180 --> 00:05:06.720
Did you love that?

95
00:05:06.779 --> 00:05:07.920
I found that very rose.

96
00:05:07.980 --> 00:05:11.100
Yeah, maybe not wrote.

97
00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.100
Well, I think I think they did it well.

98
00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.160
If they're going to do that, I think... they do tenant and they do

99
00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:20.339
Tom, you know, and they do the voices and all of that sort of

100
00:05:20.339 --> 00:05:20.639
thing.

101
00:05:20.699 --> 00:05:25.199
And I think that that's actually okay because this isn't the 1980s

102
00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.060
where we're doing that sort of stuff every week.

103
00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:30.420
It's been a while since we had that in the show.

104
00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:32.639
And I do think that it is actually sort of nice.

105
00:05:32.699 --> 00:05:36.720
I mean, there's a sense in which there are elements of previous

106
00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:41.040
Doctor Who stories in this one.

107
00:05:41.819 --> 00:05:44.519
It is very sort of TRAD.

108
00:05:44.579 --> 00:05:47.040
And I'm sort of okay with it.

109
00:05:47.100 --> 00:05:49.800
One of the things I didn't mention last week is it last week that

110
00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.519
we hear the story where the gangers go crazy and tear someone up

111
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:55.680
and all that's left, is there a ear or something?

112
00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:57.240
I think buzzer tells the story.

113
00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:03.300
And it's absolutely the story that's told to Borg in the 1st

114
00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:05.160
episode of Robots of Dead.

115
00:06:05.220 --> 00:06:06.120
Or his arm off.

116
00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:07.079
Thank QV 15.

117
00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:11.459
I heard it was a leg.

118
00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:25.019
Amy notices almost straight away that the doctors have different

119
00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:25.560
shoes.

120
00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:29.519
And so we know the real doctor has the sort of crummy, ludicrous

121
00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.579
shoes that he's sort of peeked out of a locker after he trod in

122
00:06:32.579 --> 00:06:37.199
some acid, which had some very sort of Harry Sullivan vibes for me

123
00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:37.800
I have to say.

124
00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:43.319
And the real doctor has his really terribly nice shoes.

125
00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:48.120
And that's obviously something that is going to be sort of a huge

126
00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:49.379
point.

127
00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:53.579
And the director deliberately goes out of his way to not let us

128
00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:54.779
see the shoes.

129
00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.300
No, there's a close-up of them digging next to a show.

130
00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:59.040
Oh, no, but from then on.

131
00:06:59.100 --> 00:06:59.759
Yeah, yeah.

132
00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:01.139
From then on, yeah.

133
00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:01.680
Yep, yep.

134
00:07:01.740 --> 00:07:04.800
But isn't it interesting that they kind of hang a lantern on the

135
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.639
somewhat stupid thing, of the fact that the flesh also mimics the

136
00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:08.939
clothes.

137
00:07:09.060 --> 00:07:12.779
So somehow the doctor putting his hand into the flesh pond in the

138
00:07:12.779 --> 00:07:16.319
previous episodes where it's obviously read his biology to make

139
00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:17.279
the duplicate of him.

140
00:07:17.339 --> 00:07:22.920
It's also read his schwat shoes he's wearing. to do it at that

141
00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:23.160
point.

142
00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:26.339
It's sort of almost deliberately ignoring that, but they're kind

143
00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:29.399
of like invisible enemy sort of clones in that part of your DNA

144
00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:30.540
are the clothes that you're wearing.

145
00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:32.220
That's quite beautiful though.

146
00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.519
That's quite beautiful because it plays on the imagination.

147
00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:38.579
It also reads how we present ourselves.

148
00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.519
I'd like to see that it would have been nice if there's a nice

149
00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:41.639
idea.

150
00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:43.259
There'd be a heightened sense.

151
00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:46.740
Maybe the bow tie could have been even bigger and more colourful.

152
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:48.720
You could dress him as a bloody clown, actually.

153
00:07:48.779 --> 00:07:51.360
I would have liked to have said, how does the Smith doctor

154
00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:54.600
actually see himself and then see that presented?

155
00:07:54.660 --> 00:07:56.399
I mean, that would have been silly.

156
00:07:56.459 --> 00:07:59.220
Simon, that also could have been the title of this episode.

157
00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:00.240
The flesh pond.

158
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.060
Poor Amy.

159
00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:05.100
Or Amy.

160
00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:12.600
Does anyone else have a problem with the whole double doctor and

161
00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:14.160
Amy plot in this episode?

162
00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.000
Uh, yes, yeah, I think it's really crap.

163
00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:23.879
Amy sort of takes against the ganger doctor in a way that is kind

164
00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:28.800
of believable, but, you know, the whole thing's been explained to

165
00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:33.000
her, and she's even prepared to concede that he's almost that key

166
00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:36.120
word as good as the original doctor.

167
00:08:36.179 --> 00:08:40.620
And she says, you know, I didn't travel with him and I, like I

168
00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:41.639
don't properly know him.

169
00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:45.000
I don't have the history with this doctor that I have with the

170
00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:46.139
other doctor.

171
00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.220
But I mean, that doesn't make any sense in the context of the

172
00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:52.080
story, does it?

173
00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:54.480
Because they have the same memories.

174
00:08:54.539 --> 00:08:58.019
I mean, in effect, she did travel with that doctor. doesn't

175
00:08:58.019 --> 00:08:58.139
matter.

176
00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:02.220
What are we, but the summation of our memories. and our tastes and

177
00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:04.080
our hopes and we're back to Blade Runner.

178
00:09:04.139 --> 00:09:09.299
Yeah, I think that's the character trying to differentiate between

179
00:09:09.299 --> 00:09:10.320
the 2 individuals.

180
00:09:10.379 --> 00:09:13.500
Like, if you, if you're put in that situation and you had, you

181
00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:17.460
know, someone who you, you know and love and care about duplicated

182
00:09:17.460 --> 00:09:21.960
uh, and you, like, literally duplicated in every way, it'd be

183
00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:25.139
natural, I think, to try and say, well, this is the original.

184
00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:30.779
And so now I need to create reasons why the 1st one is superior to

185
00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:31.379
the 2nd one.

186
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.320
I get what you're saying, and I think there is something in what

187
00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.799
you're saying, but I think we're probably thinking about that too

188
00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:38.039
hard.

189
00:09:38.100 --> 00:09:40.200
We're back to Benjamin, actually.

190
00:09:40.259 --> 00:09:44.399
So why does the doctor teach her this lesson about her own bigotry

191
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:46.200
in such a cold, manipulative way?

192
00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:51.600
Yeah, I think that's kind of the problem.

193
00:09:51.659 --> 00:09:57.480
And the fact that he drags her out of the room and physically

194
00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:04.620
threatens her, and that's how we're meant to read him as the

195
00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:05.159
flesh.

196
00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:08.700
And he even does a sort of slightly less posh version of his

197
00:10:08.700 --> 00:10:13.379
accent when he's doing that as well, because the flesh are, you

198
00:10:13.379 --> 00:10:14.879
know, the working classes or whatever.

199
00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:16.500
And so he does. conquer me.

200
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:18.120
He goes a bit EastEnders, doesn't he?

201
00:10:18.179 --> 00:10:19.559
Get out my path.

202
00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:24.840
He does sort of tone down the posh schoolboy accent for a moment

203
00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:25.980
there.

204
00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:30.539
And he's threatening her and he gives the speech about the eyes

205
00:10:30.539 --> 00:10:31.379
doesn't he?

206
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:36.299
Which is the thing that Jen remembers, like Jen is able to

207
00:10:36.299 --> 00:10:40.139
remember all of the previous decommissioning and what that feels

208
00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:41.340
like.

209
00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:44.100
And that's a super cheesy scene too, isn't it?

210
00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:46.080
The last question they ask is why.

211
00:10:46.139 --> 00:10:48.960
It's so on the nose. dialogue.

212
00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:50.879
Shocking.

213
00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:53.279
But like, what's the purpose of that?

214
00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:55.379
I just don't understand what the purpose is.

215
00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.440
And I think that you're always waiting for that other shooter

216
00:10:58.440 --> 00:10:58.799
drop.

217
00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:01.919
It doesn't come as a surprise that, oh, it was the doctor all

218
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.740
along and your bigotry was irrational.

219
00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:06.179
You know that that's where it's going.

220
00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:07.679
So what is the point of it?

221
00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:09.299
That's right.

222
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:13.139
And so all you're left with is the realisation that this was, in

223
00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:16.980
fact, the doctor roughing up Amy and saying these nasty things and

224
00:11:16.980 --> 00:11:20.460
her walking away from him saying, keep him away from me.

225
00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:24.960
And all in service of a red herring or something to make her think

226
00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:25.980
you know, later on.

227
00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.679
And then he goes on and he roughs up Rory as well.

228
00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:29.879
So it's really not great.

229
00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:31.860
It puts me mind of the twin dilemma.

230
00:11:32.220 --> 00:11:37.980
So I do have a thing and I don't know whether this is a crazed fan

231
00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:41.940
theory or whether everyone except me already knows this about

232
00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:44.820
series 6 and I'm going to look like a massive idiot.

233
00:11:45.059 --> 00:11:52.080
One thing that does happen, and maybe this is the reason, is that

234
00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:58.259
Amy tells the actual doctor and not the ganger doctor that she has

235
00:11:58.259 --> 00:11:59.279
seen him killed.

236
00:11:59.340 --> 00:12:04.379
And so now the doctor knows that and he didn't know it before

237
00:12:04.379 --> 00:12:05.940
right?

238
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:13.500
And so at this point now, the doctor is going to try and stop that

239
00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:14.100
from happening.

240
00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:20.100
And if he rewrites time to do that, is it possible that Canton was

241
00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:23.700
telling the truth, that originally it really was the Doctor Who is

242
00:12:23.700 --> 00:12:28.860
dead and then the doctor intervenes later to change it so that it

243
00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:29.340
isn't him?

244
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:31.860
We don't know yet, do we?

245
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.820
But that also touches on the premise of this, and I know I keep

246
00:12:35.820 --> 00:12:38.820
going to the higher level on this, on the writing of this.

247
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:43.740
But there's a line, if you'll indulge me, Susan Buck Moore's wrote

248
00:12:43.740 --> 00:12:46.740
on Benjamin on the further critiquing of what is a copy.

249
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:47.399
What is the truth?

250
00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:52.200
When she talks about restoring the instinctual power of the human

251
00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.919
bodily senses for the sake of humanity's self-preservation, and to

252
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.440
do this, not by avoiding new technologies, but by passing through

253
00:12:58.440 --> 00:12:58.679
them.

254
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.980
In other words, by becoming one with them or uniting with them.

255
00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:06.240
And absorbing them into the vision of ourselves and that we are, we

256
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:07.919
are all one, in other words.

257
00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:11.820
And our copies and our duplicates and the things that we make are

258
00:13:11.820 --> 00:13:15.419
substantives for ourselves and for what we hold dear and true of

259
00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:15.840
ourselves.

260
00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:19.980
And that's why I really like the scene, with the cockany, Matt

261
00:13:19.980 --> 00:13:21.419
Smith going off.

262
00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:22.379
I don't like it.

263
00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.100
It's disturbing to watch, but the truth of it is that he's very

264
00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:31.019
much in touch with what his ganger is going through and that

265
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:33.600
they're sharing the same thoughts and feelings at that time.

266
00:13:34.259 --> 00:13:36.299
And that's certainly true.

267
00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.720
Like the only way that the real doctor knows about the eyes, which

268
00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.980
is something that the gang of doctor is experiencing to a lesser

269
00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:47.159
degree in the other room is because they're linked.

270
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:51.600
So he is learning to feel what it's like to be a ganger just by

271
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.580
having a ganger duplicate in this situation.

272
00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:58.080
Isn't there some suggestion that they can kind of, even, you know

273
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.440
after the solar storm, that they can sense each other to some

274
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.379
extent or that there's some momentary connection from time to

275
00:14:04.379 --> 00:14:04.860
time.

276
00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:06.960
And you can imagine that the doctor's connection would be much

277
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.980
more superior to the human one, to his gang herself.

278
00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.379
That's what I got from it very much, yes.

279
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.240
No, I think there's something in that.

280
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:19.740
There's a charitable reading of the scene where no one is quite as

281
00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:20.220
they are.

282
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.159
So it's the doctor pretending to be the ganger doctor.

283
00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:23.700
That's fine.

284
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:27.120
And he is also interreleasing with someone who he knows is not the

285
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:27.779
real Amy.

286
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.340
And so it's sort of, it's sort of more okay that he's, he doesn't

287
00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:34.500
treat her like the real Amy, but it doesn't take away from the

288
00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:36.899
fact that what you're watching in the moment is, like you said

289
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:37.980
Richard, a bit uncomfortable.

290
00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:41.279
Yeah, but I don't think it's bad to be a bit uncomfortable.

291
00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:45.059
I mean, I remember, you know, you do get sequences in other things

292
00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:49.320
where the hero is being unpleasant for one reason or other, and I

293
00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:50.879
think I think they can be part of the complexity.

294
00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:53.460
Remember though, that the not real Amy that we discover at the

295
00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:53.639
end.

296
00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:58.259
She's completely linked to the real Amy off wherever she is, uh, in

297
00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:01.559
a way that the gangers were linked to their host's pre-the solar

298
00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:01.919
store.

299
00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:03.960
It's only the solar storm that split them into two.

300
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.259
This Amy is feeling everything that this ganger Amy is feeling.

301
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:15.419
And for us ever since Day of the Moon, this Amy has been our Amy.

302
00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.860
I mean, we've been watching it and experiencing her as Amy.

303
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:25.500
And so the revelation that she's not at the end of this episode

304
00:15:25.500 --> 00:15:27.059
you know, only comes later.

305
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:29.820
And so when we've been watching Day of the Moon, when we've been

306
00:15:29.820 --> 00:15:34.139
watching Curse of the Black Spot and the Doctor's Wife, that has

307
00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:38.100
been the Amy that we've been experiencing as actual Amy.

308
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:42.600
And so I, that is, I think, exactly right, Simon, that Amy is

309
00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:48.120
driving that kind of replica of herself, experiencing what it

310
00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:49.200
experiences.

311
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:54.899
And that's partly part of the eye patch woman's plan to kind of

312
00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:58.139
make it look like she hasn't kidnapped Amy.

313
00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:02.519
But it's also a deception that's being played on Amy herself.

314
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:05.759
She doesn't know where she is or what's happening to her.

315
00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:10.320
And I think that we can now locate that in between the 1st 2

316
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.379
episodes, can't we, where she's suddenly not pregnant?

317
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:17.580
And that's not because it's a weird timehead pregnancy or whatever

318
00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:19.259
although it is.

319
00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:24.960
But it's because we're now experiencing the ganger, Amy, and we

320
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:26.940
never kind of find out when that happens.

321
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.519
But it must have happened by the time of day of the moon, because

322
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.460
of course that's the 1st time we see iPads later.

323
00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:33.240
Yeah.

324
00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:36.120
I was talking to a friend of the podcast, Stuart Manning about

325
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.460
this, and I think that might be part of the problem with this

326
00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:41.220
story, is that it's kind of, there's some reverse engineering

327
00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:41.759
going on.

328
00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:46.440
So the story is here to deliver the revelation about Amy being a

329
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:50.639
ganger of herself, a clone of herself, but then the whole story

330
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:54.240
before that is to kind of set that up, and she doesn't really play

331
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:55.500
a role in that story.

332
00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:59.279
She has the role where she's dousing the doctor because he's not

333
00:16:59.279 --> 00:16:59.519
real.

334
00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:02.460
Whereas actually, I think she should have had Rory's role where

335
00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:06.960
she feels some kinship for the gangers ahead of everyone else.

336
00:17:07.019 --> 00:17:09.480
And so plays on the sympathy of that and actually goes on a

337
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:10.019
journey with it.

338
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:11.759
And I think that's thrown away a little bit.

339
00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:14.339
I think that's really interesting.

340
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.359
I do think that there is, there's some kind of friction, there's

341
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:19.500
some sort of problem.

342
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:24.299
There's some issue at the joins here between the arc and what the

343
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:25.319
story itself is doing.

344
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.759
Yeah.

345
00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:31.559
I think Gangers and Silurians last season, which we talked about

346
00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:35.819
in the previous episode, share some of the same kind of problems

347
00:17:35.819 --> 00:17:39.599
because in both of them, they're progressing the arc, but it's not

348
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:40.680
the showrunner doing it.

349
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:44.759
And I'm not necessarily saying that maybe arc stories shouldn't be

350
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.220
given to non-showrunner people, just maybe they shouldn't be given

351
00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:48.599
to Chris Chiplin and Matthew Graham.

352
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:55.740
I think that's needlessly cruel You and I know there is no

353
00:17:55.740 --> 00:17:56.819
needlessly, girl.

354
00:18:09.779 --> 00:18:14.099
I do think that we have this sort of situation where the show is

355
00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:18.359
attempting literally the most kind of complex and ambitious arc

356
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:19.740
that it's ever done.

357
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.819
And there's a lot of plates that need to be kept spinning.

358
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:29.460
And I think we thought that Curse of the Black Spot suffered a bit

359
00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:31.440
as a result of the arc.

360
00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:37.680
And here, I think, the story is kind of built round the arc.

361
00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:41.519
Like we need to know about the gangers, we need to have a story

362
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:42.599
about gangers.

363
00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:46.799
I think that the story that's told here about gangers is kind of

364
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.859
the obvious story to tell, and it's a good story to tell, but

365
00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:52.559
there's some problem at the seams, I think.

366
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.059
However, I do think the person who fares best from the 2nd episode

367
00:18:57.059 --> 00:18:57.900
is Cleaves.

368
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.079
I think that she is really quite incredible, and I just want to

369
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:04.859
shout out to that scene where there are the 2 Cleaves, kind of

370
00:19:04.859 --> 00:19:08.819
conspiring against one another in different rooms and trying to

371
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:10.079
2nd guess one another.

372
00:19:10.140 --> 00:19:16.200
And I do think that the actor herself is really pretty damn good.

373
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.259
Let me agree with you on half of that, Nathan.

374
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:21.960
I think Cleaves has the most interesting material in this

375
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:22.380
episode.

376
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.980
However, Raquel Cassidy, who I like in other things, she was

377
00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:27.420
really good in Townes Abbey.

378
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:32.940
Please every line like this. too much world.

379
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.640
Yes, there is a bit too much world weariness in her delivery.

380
00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:36.779
Downton Abbey.

381
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.420
I was spending the entirety of watching it going, where have I

382
00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:40.079
seen this woman before?

383
00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:40.980
Yes of course.

384
00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:42.779
She's in Downton Abbey.

385
00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:46.740
But I think there you're actually seeing a character that where or

386
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:51.299
the character that we're missing in the 1st episode, the only

387
00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:55.319
character that gets developed in any way is Jen, and Jimmy a

388
00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:55.680
little bit.

389
00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:58.680
And now Cleves gets her character developed.

390
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:01.980
It's her turn and I think she comes off well because of it.

391
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:04.079
Yes, and it's quite a subtle change.

392
00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:05.819
Whereas I don't think Jen is.

393
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:07.740
I sort of struggle with the carry through Jen.

394
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.579
She's meek and mild, but why does that make Gangajan properly

395
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:12.059
evil?

396
00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.940
She says she wants the gang to survive and have their own lives.

397
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.920
That's all fair enough, but she's psychotic.

398
00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:20.279
She seems to relish the prospect of mass murder and sort of rub

399
00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:21.420
her hands together in glee.

400
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.119
Yes, it's like we'll destroy them all.

401
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:26.039
You know, with that sm- evil smile.

402
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.279
I think that's just the, you know, playing up the villainy kind of

403
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.500
thing. and right, it would be more interesting if she wasn't quite

404
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:35.220
so psychotic, but we touched on it last episode when we said that

405
00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:38.880
she was the one who was most intimately involved in the case of

406
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.220
the gangers and the only one that actually shows any empathy for

407
00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:45.180
them. and therefore that drives her, um, her baselessness, in

408
00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:48.660
other words, she, she's driven to lose her sense of control and

409
00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:50.519
self more than the others.

410
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:52.859
And therefore, she's probably the most interesting character in

411
00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:53.099
this.

412
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.099
I think it may be a bit overplayed, and, you know, it's, I think

413
00:20:56.099 --> 00:20:59.880
the, it's asking a lot of itself, and the performance that it

414
00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:00.180
has.

415
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.160
The themes in this are so large.

416
00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:05.460
Perhaps the time and the scope isn't there.

417
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:09.059
But I actually find her, yes, there's some of the performances

418
00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:13.799
boldarized, but I don't actually find that her impetus is odd at

419
00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:14.039
all.

420
00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:15.359
I think it's quite realistic.

421
00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.819
I've been to these rallies.

422
00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:18.599
Yeah.

423
00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:23.460
So she's the one who can remember being decommissioned.

424
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:29.339
And Brendan told me last night that the idea was that she was a

425
00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:31.079
person with an idetic memory.

426
00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:35.460
And so as a result, her ganger remembers the decommissioning.

427
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.059
And so she's the one who tells the story about how gangers

428
00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:43.319
dissolve, because apparently they always fall into acid rather

429
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:44.339
than anything else.

430
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:48.299
And they dissolve with their eyes last and those, the question in

431
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:49.740
those eyes is why.

432
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.500
And it's grotesquely overwritten.

433
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:59.400
And she also has that scene with Rory last week, which is nearly

434
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.339
successful and she has some sort of good moments there.

435
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:08.400
But it is that just the sort of speech that would only occur to a

436
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:12.900
TV writer and that no one would ever say, this bizarre character

437
00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:16.920
beat where she's a little girl in Red Wellies and she remembers

438
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.019
being scared of a picnic.

439
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:20.640
And it's shockingly bad.

440
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:27.000
And she imagines that there's a stronger, tougher Jennifer that

441
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:31.740
you know, like that exists basically to justify why she turns into

442
00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:33.240
the villain in part two.

443
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:35.579
And it's a bad speech.

444
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:37.980
It's not a completely terrible scene.

445
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.579
There's some good stuff between her and Rory, which we mentioned

446
00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:42.059
last week.

447
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:45.839
But that's also there to justify why she turns evil.

448
00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:51.480
And in fact, there is a pretty great moment where she's sort of

449
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.680
ranting about being evil and Cleave just goes, no, actually, I'm

450
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.680
sick of all this crap and I just want to live my life.

451
00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:00.180
Can we do that instead?

452
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.440
That would shut the master up at times.

453
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:10.740
I think you are right, Nathan, about that speech. the red...

454
00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:11.579
Red Welly's.

455
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.940
It is that kind of species that for me, a not very good writer

456
00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:17.940
writes going, I have now created a character for this person.

457
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:18.720
Great kick.

458
00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:22.079
But you see those speeches in loads of stuff.

459
00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:23.519
And so maybe just wash over me.

460
00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:26.579
But maybe the reason why she remembers the decommissioning stuff

461
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:29.519
is because remember all the flesh is, when they've all been melted

462
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.599
down, and the flesh is just in the big vat, it's all connected to

463
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:33.900
itself.

464
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.779
So, you know, it can divide the cells converted, et cetera, and

465
00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:37.380
it's all one thing.

466
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.220
So I think what it is is rather than the gen having a memory of it

467
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:42.420
of her decommissioning.

468
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:45.059
It like the flesh itself, is remembering all the deer

469
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:45.599
commissionings.

470
00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:48.720
And for some reason that's been loaded into Jen's body, Jen's

471
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:50.519
flesh body rather than any of the others.

472
00:23:50.579 --> 00:23:51.960
You know what I mean?

473
00:23:52.019 --> 00:23:52.859
Like there's a connection.

474
00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:54.660
It's all one thing.

475
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:55.740
It's all one entity.

476
00:23:55.799 --> 00:24:00.599
It just seems to me that the idea is that she's the person who's

477
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:04.380
most conscious of their oppression and mistreatment and everyone

478
00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:06.299
else is telling her to calm the hell down.

479
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:11.039
And I'm not sure that I like, you know, like, I'm just not sure

480
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:12.000
that I like that very much.

481
00:24:12.059 --> 00:24:15.480
I do love the thing where she's sort of weirdly painting bits of

482
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.500
herself on the wall and then we get the scene where the eyes are

483
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:23.819
accusing everyone and it's super grotesque and it's only just on

484
00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:25.140
the boundary of what works.

485
00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:29.279
Like it risks enormously looking stupid.

486
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:31.680
I'm absolutely on board with that.

487
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:32.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

488
00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.819
I would just say when the lips appeared from the Gunge last

489
00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:39.599
episode and said, trust me, it all got perilously rocky horror.

490
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.700
God, this story could have used Patricia Quinn.

491
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:48.000
Is there a story that's true of any story?

492
00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:53.460
During a grumbly, grindy jaw face.

493
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:54.119
Yes.

494
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:58.079
Oh, she would have made a great cleaves and made a meal.

495
00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:00.240
Does Jen get the immortal line?

496
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:01.500
How could they do this?

497
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:03.000
Who are the real monsters?

498
00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:06.119
Oh, actually deliver that life.

499
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:08.819
I should missed it the 1st time.

500
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:09.420
Yes.

501
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:15.359
God, her crush on Rory has all the narrative depth of a Chumbly

502
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:16.980
developing a crush on Finky.

503
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:18.359
Terrible.

504
00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:19.680
Or canine.

505
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:42.420
There is something clever about establishing that we've killed the

506
00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:46.140
gangagen only to find out that there's another gangagen.

507
00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:49.140
Because we never saw the actual real Jennifer die.

508
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:53.400
We did have that reasonably effective scene last week where the

509
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:57.539
real Jen, whom we hadn't seen for a while, is sort of walking

510
00:25:57.539 --> 00:26:00.059
along muling and being irritating.

511
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:05.339
And then sort of scary gangagen is on the roof about to attack her

512
00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:06.660
but we never see her killed.

513
00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:09.720
And, you know, it's established that she has a limp and all of

514
00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:10.319
that sort of thing.

515
00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:13.799
So I was actually, despite having seen this any number of times

516
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.200
momentarily blindsided by that.

517
00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:19.859
I'd actually forgotten that development and thought for a 2nd that

518
00:26:19.859 --> 00:26:23.279
we had the real Jen until, of course, she dupes Rory into

519
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:28.559
activating the explode the base machine, which is conveniently

520
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:30.599
located somewhere on the base.

521
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:34.619
There is a point where, and I think you've just touched it where I

522
00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:37.859
feel we're watching a representation of Stella Gibbon's cold

523
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:41.940
comfort farm, and I'm waiting for Joanna Lumley to turn up and

524
00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:46.980
espouse the benefits of a tight fitting corset, as perhaps one of

525
00:26:46.980 --> 00:26:48.000
the more controlling women.

526
00:26:48.059 --> 00:26:51.119
It just it just does feel a little bit yokel, doesn't it, by this

527
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:51.480
stage?

528
00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:55.200
I'm trying to, you know, see it in its lofty ambitions, but

529
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.779
unfortunately yeah, presentation does let us down.

530
00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:01.019
Also, it's so dull.

531
00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:07.740
No, I think probably a doll is not, not.

532
00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:09.000
Actually, at all.

533
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:10.079
He's not dull.

534
00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:12.299
It's predictive, isn't it?

535
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:16.200
It feels like the iPhone's written it with predictive text.

536
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:19.920
You do kind of tell you know what's going to come in each moment.

537
00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:21.779
That's, yeah, but that's different to dull.

538
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.220
That's very dull.

539
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.220
I think there can be something comforting about watching something

540
00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:32.819
which follows the, God, here's that word, tropes. you sort of know

541
00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:35.640
you sort of know what's going to happen next and you can expect

542
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:35.940
it.

543
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:39.480
Maybe something's a signposted too much and the rest of it.

544
00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:40.440
But, oh, no.

545
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:45.599
I do think that the gen thing is that's a surprise.

546
00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:49.380
I do like the stuff between the Cleaves's.

547
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:54.299
I mean, we know that Ganga Cleaves is going to work out the

548
00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:58.200
special code word that the real Cleaves is typing into the thing.

549
00:27:58.259 --> 00:27:59.400
That comes as no surprise.

550
00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:01.980
We know that's kind of going to happen.

551
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:06.720
But I do think that the way the whole thing is resolved is just

552
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:13.680
unbearably kind of neat and pat. you know, towards the end, right?

553
00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:16.980
We're all running into the TARDIS in order to escape.

554
00:28:17.339 --> 00:28:20.400
The base is exploding around us.

555
00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:25.079
We have a few extra duplicates that we need to deal with so that

556
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:27.420
only one of each person survives.

557
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:31.980
And everyone just behaves like a complete moron.

558
00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:36.599
I mean, the whole thing is people sacrificing themselves for no

559
00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:37.319
reason at all.

560
00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:42.299
If they hadn't stood there explaining why they're sacrificing

561
00:28:42.299 --> 00:28:46.200
their lives, they could have all just gone into the TARDIS and

562
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.039
they would have been fine.

563
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:50.220
That's his bizarre scripting choice of playing out an entire

564
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:53.099
emotional climax while people are valiantly holding a door

565
00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:53.579
closed.

566
00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:56.579
And she's still down the corridor.

567
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:57.359
I just don't get it.

568
00:28:57.420 --> 00:28:58.259
I don't care.

569
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:01.619
Yeah, sacrificing themselves, you know, on the metre of

570
00:29:01.619 --> 00:29:03.420
sacrificing yourself for no reason.

571
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.299
It hardly meets Lexa in Neglos level.

572
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:12.059
It normally says a bit of that and it's and it's poor.

573
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:15.420
And I think one of the flaws, one of the things that the show runs

574
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:19.500
away from, is not having 2 versions of the one person, even one of

575
00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:21.839
them having 2 versions of themselves surviving.

576
00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:25.440
Otherwise, it just ends up feeling like the ultimate episode of

577
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.819
Get Smart, doesn't it?

578
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.599
How to finish 7 years of a run with multiple doors.

579
00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:30.900
Yeah.

580
00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:35.460
Maybe the doctor could have taken the ganger doctor and dropped it

581
00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:36.960
off on alternate world with rose.

582
00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:37.440
Here you go.

583
00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:38.279
There's choice of two.

584
00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:48.720
I mean, there is a kind of hint that the gangers are human in that

585
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.559
they are prepared to sacrifice their lives. and so they're not

586
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:53.519
monsters.

587
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:55.619
Like they've decided not to be monsters.

588
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.359
They've decided to be people.

589
00:29:57.420 --> 00:30:01.380
And one of the things that people do.

590
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.700
And one of the things that we regard as incredibly meritorious is

591
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:09.420
the choice to lay down your life to save someone.

592
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.960
And so the fact that Ganga Cleaves does do that.

593
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:17.400
I think kind of speaks to her humanity. certainly in a sort of

594
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:18.599
Doctor Who context, at least.

595
00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:22.319
If only we could have believed from what we saw on screen that she

596
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:23.220
needed to do it.

597
00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:25.680
Yeah, that's the problem, I think.

598
00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:26.579
That is the problem.

599
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.700
But that's a flaw of the production or a flaw of the writing

600
00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:31.980
around that moment, if you know what I mean.

601
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:35.640
Do you think there's a direction problem there, too, in that

602
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:35.880
scene?

603
00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:36.839
Yes.

604
00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:40.559
Broadly speaking, like, not talking direction from a shot choice

605
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:43.079
point of view, but there's a little bit of writing a little bit of

606
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.500
direction, a little bit of the way it's put together, makes it, you

607
00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:48.900
know, you realise later, wait a minute, they didn't need to die.

608
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.240
And I acknowledge that is a problem.

609
00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:55.380
It's just a problem of having just not thought through how that

610
00:30:55.380 --> 00:30:58.200
little sequence is going to work well enough and that's, that's a

611
00:30:58.200 --> 00:30:59.339
fault of a number of people, I think.

612
00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:03.900
Certainly, Dickon just deciding to close the door with himself on

613
00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:06.420
the other side of it is utterly baffling.

614
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.839
That's actually the most the more ridiculous than the gang of

615
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:12.779
doctor and gang of cleaves holding in the door chart.

616
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:13.799
Yeah, absolutely.

617
00:31:13.859 --> 00:31:15.660
Especially because it was the other one that was going to be

618
00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:16.319
locked or something.

619
00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:18.240
Didn't he do that because he had to lock it.

620
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:22.019
See, there's probably a missing line of dialogue where what's his

621
00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:24.960
face has to close the door from the other side in order to lock it

622
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:25.380
properly.

623
00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:29.519
Yeah, but again, even putting them in a situation where that's the

624
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:31.200
problem is kind of stupid.

625
00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:33.960
Like even if they'd managed to put that dialogue in there.

626
00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:37.259
It's kind of like, well, that seems an odd choice for a door.

627
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:38.279
Why would you do that?

628
00:31:38.339 --> 00:31:38.940
You know?

629
00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:41.759
Todd should have been on this episode.

630
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:51.180
And it doesn't help, of course, that we don't care about Dickon

631
00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:51.599
you know.

632
00:31:51.660 --> 00:31:54.420
No, no, he's just generic potato person.

633
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.519
And we don't care about doors.

634
00:31:56.579 --> 00:31:57.779
It's like terrible.

635
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.500
I think the script is to blame, but also, yeah, the director

636
00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:02.220
fumbles things.

637
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:04.440
I think it's part of the editing.

638
00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:08.700
I noticed last episode, the scene where Cleaves runs out the door

639
00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:12.779
from kind of the communal quarters is so loosely edited that

640
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:16.319
you're not really sure where people are and like she, she runs

641
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.779
from long shot sort of next to the community thing.

642
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:20.039
Why did that shot last so long?

643
00:32:20.099 --> 00:32:22.859
It's really poorly paste in its shot structure.

644
00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:27.299
Well, I mean, Richard was talking about that last week, I think.

645
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:27.960
Yeah.

646
00:32:34.019 --> 00:32:39.539
How do we feel about the final Monstery form of Jen?

647
00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:42.839
That's my reaction.

648
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:47.519
Reminds me of the Mark Gaters Scorpion thing in the Lazarus.

649
00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:48.059
Oh, yeah, yeah.

650
00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:50.640
Yes Puzzling creative choice, perhaps.

651
00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:53.819
In fact, is that where we've seen the head thing come out?

652
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:54.960
Because doesn't that happen in that as well?

653
00:32:55.019 --> 00:32:56.519
Like the earlier sequence in the bathroom?

654
00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:58.980
Also her giant mouth.

655
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:02.099
I mean, she actually killed one of the human beings.

656
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:02.819
Yeah.

657
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:07.680
Like, I actually think that the kind of uncomfortable

658
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:13.980
grotesqueness of that actually works in the way, I think, that the

659
00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:19.619
Gatus, you know, scorpion monster sort of works in the Lazarus

660
00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:20.700
experiment.

661
00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:26.339
I do think it needs to kind of skirt making you laugh out loud at

662
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:30.599
how terrible and ridiculous it is and also just sort of being this

663
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:35.759
sort of uncomfortable thing about her physicality, I think.

664
00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:38.279
I think it works because it's not very long.

665
00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:42.539
Like it would have been tedious if she was like that multiple

666
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:45.900
times throughout the 2nd episode or perished the thought through

667
00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:46.799
most of the 2nd episode.

668
00:33:46.859 --> 00:33:50.940
Where I think the Lazarix experiment one fails for me is that he's

669
00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:55.380
liked that for too long, whereas here it's just the climax and I

670
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:56.579
think that would have been a better use of it.

671
00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:01.740
Is she a projection of Rory's libido, Rory's darkest desires.

672
00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:04.980
Speaking of unfortunate climax.

673
00:34:05.579 --> 00:34:09.239
She's the only one who does it apart from that kind of wonderful

674
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:14.699
moment where Ganga Cleave turns a head around 180 degrees at some

675
00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:16.500
point. love that.

676
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:22.320
I just wanted to vomit up human flesh like Jen did in the sink

677
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:22.800
last week.

678
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:26.159
Linda Blair's pea suit.

679
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:29.039
I really like that final form of gen.

680
00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:31.079
I think it's quite unsettling. looks quite good.

681
00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:34.440
It's just a shame that the CG isn't quite up to it. which is you

682
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:35.519
know, the story of these episodes.

683
00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:40.199
Was the mill on this one or had they'd left by now, hadn't they?

684
00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:42.719
No, I think the mill was still working on the show.

685
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:43.199
Yeah.

686
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:48.599
I do think that the decision to go HD, which was kind of

687
00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:53.940
inevitable for a TV production at this point, does actually kind

688
00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:59.340
of take its toll on some of the CG effects for a number of years

689
00:34:59.340 --> 00:35:01.320
and I think we're still kind of feeling that.

690
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:05.400
Certainly some CGFX look spectacular and the creation of

691
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.460
environments and stuff is particularly successful generally.

692
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:12.300
But sometimes CG creatures that kind of move their mouths and

693
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:14.760
stuff like that don't quite work at this point.

694
00:35:14.820 --> 00:35:17.340
Yeah, you remember the 11th hour last year?

695
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:18.480
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

696
00:35:18.539 --> 00:35:19.139
Yeah.

697
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:21.659
Although that was Olivia Coleman's own teeth.

698
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:22.800
It was.

699
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:26.940
There's a reason she's truly terrified, and that's why people keep

700
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:27.659
employing.

701
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:29.880
What was she doing?

702
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:31.800
You just have to CG regular teeth in.

703
00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:38.579
Let's talk about the sort of end once we escape in the Tartars.

704
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:43.619
But I do think again, the blood clot in Cleaves's brain is just

705
00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.739
incredibly summarily dealt with.

706
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:50.219
And in a way that sort of is a massive cheat.

707
00:35:50.219 --> 00:35:55.980
And it's kind of like particularly bad given that just a few weeks

708
00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:58.800
ago, the doctor couldn't revive Rory.

709
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.400
And Amy had to, you know, do CPR on him.

710
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:05.280
And now all you need is a little vial of kind of something that

711
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.199
smells like burnt onions.

712
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.179
Yeah, that's right.

713
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:10.440
And we're all okay.

714
00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:13.920
And that was actually a slightly interesting thing.

715
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:18.239
The moment where Cleaves tells other Cleaves, welcome to the human

716
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:18.659
race.

717
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:21.599
You've got an inoperable brain clot, you know, it sucks to be

718
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:21.780
you.

719
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.340
That's actually quite cool.

720
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:25.019
It's the human race but not for long.

721
00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:27.840
It's also totally unnecessary.

722
00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:30.360
There's no suggestion that she's going to drop dead in the next 24

723
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:30.659
hours.

724
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.099
It's a problem.

725
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:33.360
She going to die at some point.

726
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:35.340
Why did we need to save it?

727
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:37.619
Why can't she just, well we don't know, she should die at some

728
00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:37.800
point.

729
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:38.519
That just the way it goes.

730
00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:39.480
It's totally unnecessary.

731
00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:40.619
Yeah.

732
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:44.519
And then we sort of stabilise Jimmy and Dick and, you know, just

733
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:48.780
from the TARDIS's magical space reasons field and everything's

734
00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:51.599
going to be okay from now on, they can't turn into monsters even

735
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:52.380
if they want to.

736
00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:56.159
All you needed was some ad fab dialogue.

737
00:36:56.219 --> 00:36:56.699
What's she doing?

738
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:57.900
Just clearing a blockage, I think.

739
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:03.840
Yes, in fact, the stabilising thing of those two.

740
00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:06.300
It's almost like, is there, again, another missing.

741
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:09.599
And when I say missing dialogue, I'm sometimes meaning like from

742
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:13.920
an earlier draft or when they were doing the story idea and then

743
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:16.739
they never ran with it, it was an idea at one point that

744
00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:20.219
eventually those ganger duplicates, even though they were made

745
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:25.139
real by the solar storm, were going to eventually decay. you know

746
00:37:25.139 --> 00:37:25.500
what I mean?

747
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:28.440
Because there are certain things that don't make sense unless

748
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:29.699
something like that's gonna happen.

749
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.239
I think the idea is that they can't turn into sort of giant

750
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.280
lolloping monsters at some point.

751
00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:39.239
You know, they're stable in the sense that their heads won't turn

752
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:43.260
around 180 degrees and like, you know, they won't be able to snake

753
00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:45.239
through toilet doors and stuff from now on.

754
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:50.099
And we need to get Jimmy in particular to be sufficiently human

755
00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:56.039
because he's actually properly replacing Jimmy, who dies in a

756
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:57.719
completely arbitrary way.

757
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:01.440
He's going to raise a child. needs to give his son some acting

758
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:01.679
lessons.

759
00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:04.860
So the sun is terrible.

760
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:06.539
No, he's not terrible.

761
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:10.260
He's just not very good. there is a range here. like 4 hours.

762
00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:13.079
Terence Dudley's children and survivors bad.

763
00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:14.639
Yeah, I think we are too.

764
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:20.280
Well, certainly, we had a child actor who was probably about 14 a

765
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.980
couple of weeks ago in Curse of the Black Spot, who was actually

766
00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:24.179
very good indeed.

767
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:29.340
And it might have been an idea to make Adam just a little bit

768
00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:29.940
older.

769
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.159
And I guess that's where the story properly resolves itself, isn't

770
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:35.579
it?

771
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:40.619
Where Ganger Jimmy can actually properly replace Jimmy, that

772
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:48.360
Ganger Jimmy is Adam's father, every bit as much as Jimmy was, and

773
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:49.920
both of them acknowledge it.

774
00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:53.280
Um, I think it's that's actually properly good.

775
00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:55.500
That's a resolution to the problem.

776
00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:00.420
The problem is that these people suddenly became something that

777
00:39:00.420 --> 00:39:04.860
was no longer a human being that had the potential to be a monster

778
00:39:04.860 --> 00:39:08.460
and that that Jimmy rejects that.

779
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:12.659
In fact, you know, it's not Rory that rescues them from the locked

780
00:39:12.659 --> 00:39:13.679
room at all.

781
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:18.840
It is Ganga Jimmy because Ganga Jimmy goes, oh my god, my son's

782
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:22.079
father is in that room and he needs to be rescued.

783
00:39:22.139 --> 00:39:25.619
And I do think that that actually works really quiet well.

784
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:26.820
Yes, it does.

785
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:29.099
I mean the whole thing's a bit perfunctory.

786
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:32.099
He dies in a completely kind of random accident and stuff.

787
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:37.260
He gets acid on him and something and an 80 yard line from that.

788
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.440
The character's last moment is his one character beat through the

789
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:41.699
2 episodes, but you know.

790
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.380
Yeah, yeah.

791
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:46.500
Like, I think that that is a properly good resolution of things.

792
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:51.119
But I I just think there's a problem politically, which I I kind

793
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:56.699
of hinted at last week, which is that everyone needs to settle

794
00:39:56.699 --> 00:40:01.500
down about being mistreated and just kind of go in and resolve it

795
00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:03.900
with a nice conversation with management.

796
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:10.199
Um, and the, the idea to go, like the idea to go full ood and

797
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:12.300
start killing people from marketing.

798
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:14.039
That's the wrong approach.

799
00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:16.440
Acting, though, it is.

800
00:40:16.500 --> 00:40:21.659
And I think that that's a shame, given that this is Doctor Who and

801
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:24.119
everything should be sort of, you know, a bit heightened.

802
00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:25.800
I couldn't agree more.

803
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:31.500
Yeah, and given the kind of oppression to which the flesh has been

804
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:35.639
subjected, there's 10s of 1000000s of them in India, you know, we

805
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:36.000
get that.

806
00:40:36.059 --> 00:40:39.000
There's 1000000s and 1000000s of these gangers around the world

807
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.900
that are being repeatedly kind of melted and then reconstituted

808
00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:48.179
and they feel it and they suffer, and that it's regarded as

809
00:40:48.179 --> 00:40:52.139
monstrous and illegitimate for them to strike back.

810
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:55.380
They just have to turn up at a board meeting and everything will

811
00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:55.800
be okay.

812
00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:02.099
The difficulty, though, is, is that these gangers here have been

813
00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:05.340
you know, made into real people by the solar storm, whereas the

814
00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:08.760
ones, the 10s of 1000000s of them in India, and the Amy that is

815
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:12.179
melted in the TARS at the end, are still connected to their

816
00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:13.260
originals.

817
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:14.099
Right?

818
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:18.719
Although, isn't there the feeling that the big pool has actually

819
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.699
achieved sentience?

820
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:21.059
Exactly.

821
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:24.239
But the pool as a whole, perhaps, right?

822
00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:25.679
Rather than the individuals.

823
00:41:25.739 --> 00:41:28.500
And the individuals only became the individuals when they fully

824
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:30.719
adopted the lives of the people they're duplicated.

825
00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:33.059
I suppose what I'm trying to say is, I think you're not

826
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:33.900
necessarily wrong.

827
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:36.900
I'm just trying to say you're not necessarily right because I

828
00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:39.300
think it's deliberately muddy and murky.

829
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:43.440
That's sort of one of the things we're sort of questioning is, you

830
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:46.500
know, when did they, when did the ganger become an individual

831
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:52.079
rather than a piece of a larger slab of goo, which, yes, we have

832
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:54.119
to look after or we have to do something we have to improve the

833
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:56.280
conditions of because the goo is sent into and is feeling the pain

834
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.199
every time they did commission, blah, blah, blah.

835
00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:00.420
But it's not as custom dried as that.

836
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:02.940
I get what you're saying about the fact that, you know, you want a

837
00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:05.400
bit more of a revolution going on, but that's kind of a different

838
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:05.760
story.

839
00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:07.800
If you're going to do that, that's episode three.

840
00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:11.219
Like, you can't tell, they're not going to, they're not going to

841
00:42:11.219 --> 00:42:14.880
walk out of the TARDIS, get their automatic rifles and barge

842
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.760
through the door into the press conference and mow down all of the

843
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:19.199
humans. you know what I mean?

844
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:20.579
It's not going to work like that.

845
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:22.559
It's a different story.

846
00:42:22.619 --> 00:42:25.800
And so I think the way to resolve this story, rather than hiding

847
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:28.860
the fact that you're the ganger, Jimmy, and pretending that, you

848
00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:31.320
know, everything's fine, you actually say, no, no, no, I am the

849
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:33.840
ganger, and I am going to still need a normal life now.

850
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:35.099
Do you know what I mean?

851
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:37.380
As I say, I think I think it's deliberately ambiguous.

852
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:38.940
So I mean, I think you're right.

853
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.059
And one of the things that I do like about this episode is the

854
00:42:42.059 --> 00:42:45.420
fact that the scene with Amy at the end, where we've just had this

855
00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:48.059
big fight for kind of, you know, ganger independence and all of

856
00:42:48.059 --> 00:42:48.300
that.

857
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:52.679
The doctor is fine with melting her down because she is not one of

858
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:53.820
those kinds of gangers.

859
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:55.980
She is just basically a skin suit.

860
00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:59.639
And so even though I don't think it's narratively that clear, the

861
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:00.960
murkiness does add something to it.

862
00:43:01.019 --> 00:43:04.019
Yeah, it's not an allegory or anything like that.

863
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:05.219
It's hinting at things.

864
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:08.760
And I and I do think that it does associate the desire for

865
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:10.679
revolution with becoming a monster.

866
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:14.639
Like I just, I don't like that quite so much.

867
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:31.320
So, let's talk about melting Amy down because I think.

868
00:43:31.860 --> 00:43:33.960
Only Todd was here.

869
00:43:35.219 --> 00:43:39.480
I think that that scene is actually really quite uncomfortable to

870
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:39.719
watch.

871
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.820
Oh, it's horribly on Doctor Who.

872
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.019
Yeah, yeah.

873
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:44.579
It's really unpleasant, isn't it?

874
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:49.380
Yeah, it's a real world intrusion of body horror in a way that I

875
00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:50.760
don't think the show has ever done before.

876
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:52.019
It is.

877
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:54.539
Even before she wakes up in the tube.

878
00:43:54.599 --> 00:44:00.840
You have the doctor being horrible to her all of a sudden and her

879
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:04.920
being frightened and forcing Rory to step away from her and leave

880
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:06.059
her isolated.

881
00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:08.460
And Rory does that as well.

882
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:12.119
I mean, there's, is there an in-story reason like maybe gangers go

883
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:15.300
crazy when you, or something like he expects some danger from the

884
00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:18.300
ganger because we've seen the... doesn't want me to melt it down

885
00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:19.500
at the same time by accident.

886
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:20.159
Maybe.

887
00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:23.699
I think he doesn't want Rory to ruin his clothes.

888
00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:26.699
Or was that about fetching a towel, Nathan?

889
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:31.860
Part of the problem, I think, is that it's another one of those

890
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:36.539
situations where Karen is too good an actor for the scene.

891
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:40.199
And I was talking to a friend of the podcast, Joe Ford last

892
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:40.619
night.

893
00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:48.599
And I compared it to, you know, the scene where Perry C's Shara's

894
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:53.940
Jack's face and then screams and, you know, and Shara's Jack

895
00:44:53.940 --> 00:44:55.739
screams and runs under the table and stuff.

896
00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:00.840
And one of the problems with Caves of Andrazani is that Perry is

897
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:06.420
so convincingly frightened that it makes the thing too real and a

898
00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:08.820
bit like not quite comic book enough.

899
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.300
And I think that's the problem here, seeing Karen being

900
00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:17.760
convincingly scared in this situation is actually quite upsetting

901
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:18.300
I think.

902
00:45:18.539 --> 00:45:23.039
And it's not the scariness of on being pursued by monsters.

903
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:26.219
It's the scariness of why are my friends treating me in this awful

904
00:45:26.219 --> 00:45:26.519
way.

905
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:27.420
Yeah.

906
00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:28.079
Yeah.

907
00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:32.219
I think, though, that, I mean, maybe it's just a question of, you

908
00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:35.219
know, what we think Doctor Who is, but I think it's okay to be

909
00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:38.460
pushing those boundaries and, you know, you can talk about whether

910
00:45:38.460 --> 00:45:40.800
that sequence in, say, case of understanding goes a little bit too

911
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.219
far, but it's one of the reasons why I think that story is so

912
00:45:44.219 --> 00:45:47.519
brilliant because it is so real, those sequences.

913
00:45:47.579 --> 00:45:50.340
And I don't think we should be afraid to eventually.

914
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:53.400
I think I think comic book is not something that I want Doctor Who

915
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:53.940
to be, really.

916
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:55.320
Maybe that's where we differ.

917
00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:59.280
No, I'm actually, I'm actually fine with what we see on screen up

918
00:45:59.280 --> 00:45:59.760
to that point.

919
00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:00.780
I think it's uncomfortable.

920
00:46:00.900 --> 00:46:03.599
I think what comes after crosses the line quite significantly.

921
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:07.380
Okay, so is it the fact, is it the fact that she turns into a pile

922
00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:10.320
of goo, rather that if, say, she was an android and her face fell

923
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:13.019
off, you know, would that be okay?

924
00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:17.519
Would that be better then dissolving it?

925
00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:18.420
Yeah, well...

926
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:20.760
Well, no, from this point of view, originally.

927
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.780
Very much so, because we've already explored that the simulacra of

928
00:46:24.780 --> 00:46:26.460
the flesh is that it is us.

929
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:30.539
And the doctor presages it nicely in, I think, episode one or this

930
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:34.559
one, it's all a blanc mange to me, when he says, I wanted to go

931
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:36.480
and see the flesh in its earliest days.

932
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:42.119
So again, I'm thinking, Mr. Moffat, why did we not have a part 3

933
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:46.440
and 4 of this when we explore the flesh as its own separate, I

934
00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:48.059
suppose, because it would have been tedious.

935
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:49.440
Yes, by mercy.

936
00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:54.000
Yeah, as another race, because it's kind of, that's where we're

937
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:54.780
going with this.

938
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:58.800
And if this is going to have any stability as a storyline itself

939
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:00.539
as I mean, as if it's going to stand on its own.

940
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:04.920
And I think we've all identified that perhaps it doesn't, then it

941
00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:06.239
needs to continue.

942
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:10.500
Because otherwise, yes, as Simon says, how is it okay to melt

943
00:47:10.500 --> 00:47:13.980
Delia Smith putting pond?

944
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:18.960
Yeah, perhaps there's an exothermic reaction and Rory would have

945
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:21.960
been nastily scalded had he stood too close to the hot milk?

946
00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:25.260
I think part of the problem is that we have spent 2 episodes

947
00:47:25.260 --> 00:47:29.760
exploring the fact that gangers are real people and even though

948
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:35.519
there are space reasons why Amy's not the same, that's not quite

949
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:38.880
enough to prevent it from being unpleasant.

950
00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:39.719
Yeah.

951
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.300
It's too high concept to wrap up like this.

952
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.780
You can't have it each way and they try to.

953
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:46.380
Yeah.

954
00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:47.099
Yeah.

955
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:49.800
And then, of course, there's a scene where she wakes up in that

956
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:50.219
tunnel.

957
00:47:50.579 --> 00:47:53.519
That's the bit that I find truly icky.

958
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.440
Yeah, something cheers.

959
00:47:55.500 --> 00:47:58.139
So basically the arc of the season is that a pregnant companion

960
00:47:58.139 --> 00:48:02.219
was kidnapped from the doctor held in a nightmare hospital until

961
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:05.039
she comes to term and then has to deliver her baby to her

962
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:05.519
captors.

963
00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:06.659
That's just a bit gross.

964
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:11.460
That's when Mr. Moffat lost me in Doctor Who at the time.

965
00:48:11.579 --> 00:48:14.519
I found that absolutely, it was worse than anything that had been

966
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:15.420
done to Sarah Jones.

967
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:18.780
Yes, I think that's absolutely right It puts being blinded and

968
00:48:18.780 --> 00:48:20.460
falling down some stairs into perspective.

969
00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:20.940
Yeah.

970
00:48:21.059 --> 00:48:21.960
I still prefer it, yeah.

971
00:48:22.019 --> 00:48:22.500
Yeah.

972
00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:27.119
Look, I think I think it's a massive problem.

973
00:48:27.179 --> 00:48:31.980
It's something that we addressed last season finale when we talked

974
00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:35.340
about Amy being shot to death by Rory.

975
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:38.519
And I think that that falls on the right side of the line.

976
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:39.300
It's not great.

977
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:40.260
Do you know what I mean?

978
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:42.960
But Doctor Who is scary and people get shot and terrible things

979
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:43.380
happen.

980
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.420
And that's part of the deal.

981
00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:50.880
But here I think, and I think it has something to do with the fact

982
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:52.320
that it's around pregnancy.

983
00:48:53.219 --> 00:48:58.019
And that there seems to be this uncomfortable suggestion.

984
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:04.260
There's something weird that it reveals about Stephen Moffatt's

985
00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:06.719
attitude to pregnancy in a way.

986
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:12.780
It's, it's, I think it's kind of uncomfortable and I think it's

987
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:17.460
something that the show shouldn't really be attempting. touches it

988
00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:21.179
touches on some very broad business that's going on with control

989
00:49:21.179 --> 00:49:25.440
of women's reproduction in the world and I don't think it should

990
00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:26.039
have gone there.

991
00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:27.059
Yeah, yeah.

992
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:31.800
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that I think I wish it had gone there

993
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:35.280
but given that it did, I didn't have a particular problem with it

994
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:37.199
and I certainly don't have a kind of problem that you're sort of

995
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:37.860
having with it.

996
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:43.139
Now, I sort of saw it more as a rosemary's baby sort of thing, that

997
00:49:43.139 --> 00:49:46.139
the evil people, because remember the people at the other side

998
00:49:46.139 --> 00:49:46.559
they're evil.

999
00:49:46.619 --> 00:49:47.699
She's wearing an eye patch.

1000
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:48.360
Of course she's evil.

1001
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.000
She's Francis Barber.

1002
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:51.960
For God's sake, of course.

1003
00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:55.079
Or Nicholas, Courtney, and Inferno.

1004
00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:59.099
I think what's supposed to be going on is that they're effectively

1005
00:49:59.099 --> 00:50:03.179
you know, using Amy Zassarigate in order to get a baby that they

1006
00:50:03.179 --> 00:50:05.639
can make, you know, the evil emperor of the universe or whatever

1007
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:06.000
it is.

1008
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:10.260
I mean, you know, the story will unfold, but that was my take on

1009
00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:10.619
it.

1010
00:50:10.739 --> 00:50:12.780
And yes, it's it's cruel, it's a bit awful.

1011
00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:15.719
It's a bit icky and all that, and it's a bit, should they have

1012
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:16.019
done that?

1013
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.380
But it's kind of happening in front of me and I went with it.

1014
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:25.440
I think we are going to discover in 2 episodes time that Moffatt

1015
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:29.820
is capable of recognising things that Doctor Who can't deal with.

1016
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.719
And it's kind of the centrepiece of that episode.

1017
00:50:34.139 --> 00:50:39.900
But here, I think that this is something that Doctor Who can't

1018
00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:41.639
deal with satisfactorily.

1019
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:46.980
And I remember actually being a bit queasy when I 1st watched The

1020
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:50.699
Impossible Astronaut and Amy told the doctor that she was

1021
00:50:50.699 --> 00:50:52.860
pregnant.

1022
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:56.219
And I just thought, how can this show even do this?

1023
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:57.420
Do you know what I mean?

1024
00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:00.539
How can we now put Amy in danger every week?

1025
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:02.280
Like, how does this even play out?

1026
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:05.039
And also kind of why is it happening?

1027
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:10.500
It's all just a little bit kind of, well, the 1st important stage

1028
00:51:10.500 --> 00:51:15.059
in a woman's life is marriage and this.

1029
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:18.179
Yeah, this season is going to be about her trying to avoid her

1030
00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:18.659
marriage.

1031
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:23.340
Now the next thing that we can think of for the female companion

1032
00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:24.300
is pregnancy.

1033
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:29.039
And so there's a kind of sort of unpleasantly essentialist thing

1034
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:34.199
to turn her into a kind of baby making device.

1035
00:51:34.260 --> 00:51:38.940
That's interesting because I think and thought the opposite.

1036
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.460
I thought, well, actually, isn't that interesting and refreshing

1037
00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:46.019
because isn't the whole point of, you know, what we're trying to

1038
00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:49.199
do on this issue is to suggest that when a woman gets pregnant, she

1039
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:53.039
doesn't have to sort of shut herself away for 9 months plus that

1040
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:56.400
you know, she can carry on and be a working woman and so on.

1041
00:51:56.460 --> 00:51:57.000
Do you know what I mean?

1042
00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:59.940
I think there's something going to the office is not the same as

1043
00:51:59.940 --> 00:52:01.980
you know, throwing yourself in front of aliens every week.

1044
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:02.400
Agreed.

1045
00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:06.539
But nevertheless, you have to acknowledge that she's got the right

1046
00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:08.280
to still lead her life the way she chooses.

1047
00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:09.780
Of course, of course.

1048
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:14.340
But what we actually do discover is that she's immediately stuffed

1049
00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:18.300
in a tube and just turned into a sort of incubator for...

1050
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:18.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1051
00:52:18.900 --> 00:52:21.300
And, like, I think it's deeply uncomfortable.

1052
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:23.159
Do you know what it reminded me of?

1053
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:26.639
Angel, you know, the series Angel.

1054
00:52:26.699 --> 00:52:32.039
So, um, in the 3rd series, Dala becomes pregnant and Dala is

1055
00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:36.539
basically going to give birth to this, Angel's baby, um, and she

1056
00:52:36.539 --> 00:52:39.719
she starts to go mad because the baby has a soul, and so it's

1057
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:42.840
making her go mad, and she ends up staking herself so that the

1058
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:43.500
baby can live.

1059
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:44.699
And that's fine.

1060
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:47.099
That's all science fiction because she's, you know, she's a

1061
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:47.639
vampire.

1062
00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:48.539
So we get away with that.

1063
00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:49.260
It's fine.

1064
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:53.280
The next series, they make Cordelia, one of our regulars pregnant

1065
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:56.760
and basically put the devil spawn inside her, and that's deeply

1066
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:58.559
uncomfortable because it's Cordelia.

1067
00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:02.820
And we also know why narratively that happened because she was

1068
00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:07.440
fighting with Joss Whedon, who was a predatory presence on set.

1069
00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:08.340
Yeah.

1070
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:10.800
Yeah, it's as dark as it looks.

1071
00:53:10.860 --> 00:53:11.219
Yeah.

1072
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.440
All right, so this is part two of a two part story, and that can

1073
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:28.800
only mean picks of the week, gentlemen.

1074
00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:31.679
Well, I can go 1st because I've got one ready.

1075
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:37.800
And that is, I'd like to recommend a film from 2009 called Moon

1076
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:39.840
starring Sam Rockwell.

1077
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:46.440
It's very difficult to say why it's my pick of the week based on

1078
00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:49.679
this story, so I would just without giving too much away, but I

1079
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:50.940
would just encourage you to watch it.

1080
00:53:51.059 --> 00:53:54.719
It's a great science fiction film and it's kind of harder science

1081
00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.659
fiction, but not sort of meaning boring.

1082
00:53:57.719 --> 00:53:59.400
It is relatively slow paced.

1083
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:03.119
There aren't very many characters in it, spoiler alert, but it's a

1084
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.539
lovely, gentle film. and really, really well made.

1085
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:11.219
It's also very hauntingly uses the 2nd slow movement from Mozart's

1086
00:54:11.219 --> 00:54:15.659
flute and harp concerto rather in the way that 2001 uses the Blue

1087
00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:16.679
Danube walls.

1088
00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:19.019
It's very elegant and I thoroughly recommend it.

1089
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:21.599
Apparently, its working title was egg.

1090
00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:25.619
I hope it wasn't that was also the working title of Kill the

1091
00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:25.860
Moon.

1092
00:54:28.980 --> 00:54:32.099
My pick of the week is going to be the good fight.

1093
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:36.719
It's a series in its 6th season about an African-American law firm

1094
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:40.079
in Chicago, and I wanted to choose it because it's so far from the

1095
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:43.860
as Nathan said earlier, perfunctoriness of this ganger's 2

1096
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:44.340
parter.

1097
00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:47.820
I actually watched them back to back, um, the good fight and this

1098
00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:48.599
and there was no contest.

1099
00:54:48.659 --> 00:54:53.460
Unlike so much recent drama, it kind of faced up to, and lived in

1100
00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:56.639
a world where Trump was president, and it's clever and it's nimble

1101
00:54:56.639 --> 00:55:00.239
and it's whimsical, um, as much as gangers is leaden.

1102
00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:04.260
It has superb performances from people like Niambi and Iambi and

1103
00:55:04.260 --> 00:55:08.820
Audra McDonald, who has 6 Tony Awards, go figure, and also the

1104
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:10.800
eternally fabulous Christine Baranski.

1105
00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:12.960
So stop whatever you're doing and go and watch it.

1106
00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:14.760
Richard?

1107
00:55:15.179 --> 00:55:20.460
I love Moon as well, and it was actually on my list for all of the

1108
00:55:20.460 --> 00:55:20.820
reasons.

1109
00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:22.500
Interestingly, that Simon said.

1110
00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:24.599
I'm glad you did.

1111
00:55:24.900 --> 00:55:28.079
It reflects the times we've been in this year.

1112
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:33.179
It's beautifully directed Davey Jones, who, of course, we've got

1113
00:55:33.179 --> 00:55:34.980
I'm trying to remember his name, actually, the director.

1114
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:35.639
Duncan.

1115
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:37.559
Duncan is, of course, David Bowie's son.

1116
00:55:37.619 --> 00:55:42.539
And so the budget was not really a problem, but it, it was still a

1117
00:55:42.539 --> 00:55:47.579
small budget thing that uses unrealised designs by Ron Cobb and

1118
00:55:47.579 --> 00:55:49.559
Macquarie.

1119
00:55:49.619 --> 00:55:54.900
So designs from Alien and other productions that they hadn't been

1120
00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:56.460
able to use their artwork for.

1121
00:55:56.519 --> 00:56:01.019
So for a fanboy, it's got some really lovely 70s, high notes in it

1122
00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:03.900
even if you just watch a film from a design point of view.

1123
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:07.739
And it's really stunningly beautifully done of what it is to be a

1124
00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:10.440
person on their own and how that's explored.

1125
00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:15.480
I really do want to talk about, um, and I won't do it for long, but

1126
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:18.599
um, Cousinsev's 1964 Hamlet, we touched on that.

1127
00:56:18.659 --> 00:56:23.159
It's the music is Shostakovich, and I'm sure Simon might agree

1128
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:25.380
with me that it's used really well in the production.

1129
00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:29.340
It's just a really lovely piece if you want to look at water

1130
00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:32.639
crashing against ancient stone walls on an island.

1131
00:56:34.619 --> 00:56:38.880
It feels it feels to me as what this might have been had they just

1132
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.699
been a bit more creative with the camera work.

1133
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:47.519
And I do feel that just as Simon's choice, Moon is so supported by

1134
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:52.800
the production values and by the sensitivity of the skills that he

1135
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:57.059
used to make it, that this story we've just watched might in fact

1136
00:56:57.059 --> 00:57:00.000
we would have felt better about it had it just had a bit more time

1137
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:00.659
spent on it.

1138
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:03.719
I'm not sure about that actually, because we've revealed some

1139
00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:04.739
really deep flaws in this.

1140
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:06.840
Might have been better with a few laughs as well.

1141
00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:09.840
Had all the raucous wit of a space 1999 episode.

1142
00:57:12.659 --> 00:57:16.860
All right, I'm going to take a desperately lowbrow.

1143
00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:21.659
I am secretly a massive fan of Star Trek, and particularly

1144
00:57:21.659 --> 00:57:25.320
Kurtzman Star Trek, which a lot of people hate. and their hate

1145
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:26.159
keeps me alive.

1146
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:28.739
It sustains you.

1147
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:37.619
I have really enjoyed Lower Decks, which is the comedy, cartoon

1148
00:57:37.619 --> 00:57:42.780
Star Trek, that's been released as one of the sort of suite of

1149
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:46.739
Star Trek series that we're currently enjoying.

1150
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:52.320
It is a marvellous, wonderful parody of Star Trek while still

1151
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.539
being in the Star Trek universe.

1152
00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:59.280
It creates real proper Star Trek episodes so that are genuinely

1153
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:03.840
funny, that are character driven and, you know, insanely violent.

1154
00:58:03.900 --> 00:58:08.880
It's really, really terribly good and I highly recommend it.

1155
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:10.079
Yay.

1156
00:58:10.139 --> 00:58:12.000
It's really well written, yeah.

1157
00:58:12.059 --> 00:58:13.320
Yeah, really well written.

1158
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:13.800
Very good.

1159
00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:43.019
Well, listen, that's all we have time for this week.

1160
00:58:43.139 --> 00:58:46.679
We'll be back next week to wrap everything up in a completely

1161
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:51.480
satisfying and totally non upsetting way in a good man goes to

1162
00:58:51.480 --> 00:58:51.719
war.

1163
00:58:52.139 --> 00:58:56.099
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1164
00:58:56.099 --> 00:58:58.440
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1165
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:03.420
at FTE podcast on Twitter and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1166
00:59:01.860 --> 00:59:06.119
com, where you'll be able to find links to our other podcasts

1167
00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:08.519
Bondfinger and Jody into Terra.

1168
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:13.079
Until next time, remember that the thing about a board meeting is

1169
00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:16.260
that there are almost never enough guillotines available.

1170
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:17.760
So be prepared.

1171
00:59:17.820 --> 00:59:20.460
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1172
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:21.599
Good night.

1173
00:59:21.659 --> 00:59:22.980
Good night.

1174
00:59:23.099 --> 00:59:23.940
Good then.

1175
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:31.019
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1176
00:59:31.019 --> 00:59:32.880
Griffith, Simon Moore, and Richard Stone.

1177
00:59:32.940 --> 00:59:35.159
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam.

1178
00:59:35.219 --> 00:59:38.940
This episode, Generic Potato Person, was recorded on the 15th of

1179
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:42.000
August 2021 and released on the 17th of October.

1180
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:46.619
If yesterday's Doctor Who Trail has piqued her excitement for

1181
00:59:46.619 --> 00:59:50.519
Series 13, you'll be even more excited to learn that in just over

1182
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:54.300
two weeks, we'll be back with our undercooked reactions to the

1183
00:59:54.300 --> 00:59:56.400
series, at Jodi Interterterra.

1184
00:59:56.400 --> 01:00:00.960
Available now at Jodi Interterra.com and wherever good podcasts

1185
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:01.980
can be found.

1186
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:08.699
I'm going very Marxist in my intros and outros.

1187
01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:09.599
Yes, you are.

1188
01:00:09.659 --> 01:00:10.500
Oh, good.

1189
01:00:10.500 --> 01:00:12.300
Only now.

1190
01:00:13.260 --> 01:00:17.579
I have to say that was a camp high points of the episode where, you

1191
01:00:17.579 --> 01:00:19.380
know, they're talking about, well, you have to convince the

1192
01:00:19.380 --> 01:00:19.739
board.

1193
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:22.860
And so then they open this door and there's suddenly the hubbub of

1194
01:00:22.860 --> 01:00:26.159
press and some flashes and people shout questions at them and then

1195
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:27.599
they close the door and it all goes away.

1196
01:00:27.659 --> 01:00:30.000
There's 1000s of them out there, sir.

1197
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:32.519
So bad.

1198
01:00:32.579 --> 01:00:33.300
All right.

1199
01:00:33.360 --> 01:00:37.079
Does everyone want to press some stop and send me their thing?

1200
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:38.940
Okay, stop.