WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:07:57 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:47.399 Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Fly Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's thin, fat, gay, and married, but still somehow needs names as well. 2 00:00:47.460 --> 00:00:49.380 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:50.579 I'm James. 4 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:52.799 I'm Peter and I'm Adam. 5 00:00:52.859 --> 00:01:10.920 Well, it's our last episode before we take an unexpected break, and so it's time for everything to come to a head in a story stuffed with monks, clerics, turfs, sontara nurses, lesbian lizard ladies, and the worst case of infant reflux ever seen on television. 6 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:17.340 So let's see if we can work out what the hell happens when a good man goes to war. 7 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:49.319 So, Adam, we haven't actually seen you since RTD was running the show. 8 00:01:49.379 --> 00:01:50.040 I know. 9 00:01:50.219 --> 00:01:55.260 How do you feel about the Moffat era generally? 10 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:59.519 Um, I love season one of Moffat. 11 00:01:59.579 --> 00:02:00.599 So that's what season five? 12 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:02.519 and I love season 10. 13 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:08.340 And if you look at what he was doing, they're the only seasons he wasn't also writing Sherlock. 14 00:02:08.819 --> 00:02:12.360 I just don't think the man was very good at multitasking. 15 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:21.360 Because like this one we had this like this week, we've got this weird break in the middle of the season, which it's like, oh, yeah, it's not on for 3 months. 16 00:02:21.419 --> 00:02:22.139 See ya. 17 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:22.620 Have fun. 18 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.740 And that happened twice or maybe 3 times? 19 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:27.120 He did that a few times. 20 00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:30.659 Yeah, so series 7 gets sort of broken over 2 years. 21 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.080 Like there's a much bigger season break next season. 22 00:02:34.139 --> 00:02:36.479 And then there are years where the show's not on. 23 00:02:36.539 --> 00:02:42.900 But this is kind of the 1st time and it is a break that is occurring because he can't get the show out. 24 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:43.860 Is that correct? 25 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:46.620 I'm guessing it's either he hasn't written it in time. 26 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:48.419 The production was running slow. 27 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:56.699 I mean, you know, like Russell T. Davis obviously was very good at going, I can only have 6 people and 2 sets without this falling into a heap. 28 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:04.379 And so he was riding, you know, bottle shows like midnight and things like that where it's like, oh, this can all just take place in one room and where they can film something else at the same time. 29 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:10.259 Whereas Moffatt's like, I need all of the actors who've ever been in the show ever to be in this week. 30 00:03:10.979 --> 00:03:13.439 Which is a lot of setup. 31 00:03:14.219 --> 00:03:19.860 I think there might have been a certain element of preventative kind of arrangements in there. 32 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:25.259 They might have realised that they just weren't going to hit it, and so they sort of put these plans into motion a couple of months beforehand. 33 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:28.500 So it wasn't like a last minute thing where they think, we've just got to stop the season. 34 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.500 They sort of planned for it, but yeah. 35 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.539 But, you know, you only plan for these things when you go, I can see that this is not going to land where it's meant to land. 36 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:37.860 Also, they've moved into HD. 37 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:41.759 So the special effects take literally 4 times as long to render. 38 00:03:41.819 --> 00:03:45.120 Like it's like, I know from someone who sits over there. 39 00:03:45.180 --> 00:03:55.139 Um, like every now and again they get a call to go, can you render this in 4K and he's like, well, there goes 2 days of just my computer whirling around. making a rendering thing. 40 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:59.939 So yeah, it's that's obviously a problem. 41 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:10.080 But as much as I love the shocks and the surprises and the, oh, look, this funny turner phrase and this exciting thing that's happening, I find that Moffatt very rarely lands anything. 42 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:15.900 In fact, I still think there are about 423 plot points in the air, like to this day. 43 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:18.480 From this entire run of episodes. 44 00:04:18.540 --> 00:04:20.220 I'm like, that was a big thing. 45 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:21.120 What happened to that? 46 00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:22.019 It's like, shush. 47 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.240 Pretend you never saw the crack of the wall again? 48 00:04:24.300 --> 00:04:26.339 And it meant something completely different the next time it turned up. 49 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:28.079 It's nothing, it's nothing that you thought it was. 50 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:35.459 Yeah, so I, from the, you know, Russell T. Davis would just tie everything up in a bow every week just about. 51 00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:41.579 And anything he was seeding through the show was, oh yeah, they just mentioned Bad Wolf every week and now that's a big thing. 52 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.160 Oh, they mentioned Harold Saxon every week. 53 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:50.399 Whereas here we're expected to remember things from two, 3 months prior the year before. 54 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:56.279 And when you get to the final Matt Smith episode, it's like, can you please remember things from 7 years ago? 55 00:04:56.279 --> 00:05:01.740 Like even Coronation Street doesn't ask you to remember something from 7 years ago as a big plot point at the end. 56 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:03.779 Yeah. 57 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:07.439 Joanna Lumley will remind you that she was in Coronation Street in 1973. 58 00:05:07.620 --> 00:05:08.579 Every chance she gets. 59 00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:15.000 I mean, some people in Coronation Street died and then came back as someone else entirely. 60 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:18.120 Tim Barlow, yeah. 61 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:46.199 But yeah, it's, although on the positive side, I love Matt Smith with every fibre of my being, like just amazing performances, and this episode in particular, like we get to see his fury just suddenly turn into childlike glee, and he has this weird face where he can look like an ancient old man and then a 10 year old, and I have huge admiration for him as an actor. 62 00:05:46.259 --> 00:05:48.300 I just think he is doing incredible work. 63 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:59.699 And when you've seen, because you know, oh, maybe this was just a fluke, you got some great scripts, you know, great dialogue that he was able to perform, but having seen his performances and other things, since you're like, oh, no, no, he's really good. 64 00:06:00.660 --> 00:06:05.040 Whereas sometimes I feel like David Tennant is always David Tennant. 65 00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:06.420 Yeah. 66 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:09.300 Like he's just, you know, I'm always a little bit cheeky. 67 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:09.779 Look at me. 68 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:18.959 I think we have spent the last few episodes kind of saying that about Matt Smith pretty much every week and certainly this week. 69 00:06:19.019 --> 00:06:22.439 There are some extraordinary speeches that he gets to give. 70 00:06:22.500 --> 00:06:28.019 And and we are kept waiting for him this week. 71 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:33.300 Like he, it's really quite extraordinary how long it takes before he arrives. 72 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:56.279 And I think Stephen Moffat has a particular failure mode, and I think it's in evidence here, which is that he relies on, um, he relies on sort of very rightly things like, like sort of flashbacks and and voiceovers and and all of that kind of thing. 73 00:06:56.339 --> 00:07:07.079 The sort of thing that you would probably, once you're more confident in the story that you're telling, that you would probably kind of get rid of in favour of the story. 74 00:07:07.139 --> 00:07:10.139 It's very rightly, I think, at the beginning. 75 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:12.959 And so here we have a story where there is a lot of incident. 76 00:07:13.019 --> 00:07:19.680 But it's hard to say that it actually sort of coheres into an actual story in some ways. 77 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:23.339 I think Stephen Moffatt lives or dies by his directors. 78 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:39.120 Like, having, I don't know if you've read Rachel Talley's blog when she's talking about directing his scripts, but she kind of points out that they, they're not very friendly to directors, like she had to go through and pull things out to work out what she's shooting. 79 00:07:39.180 --> 00:07:46.500 It's all, you know, like if you've got a narrative-minded director, then you get a really strong narrative episode. 80 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:55.620 But if you've got a director who's just banking pretty pictures, then you just get this confusing mess of a show because it's like, he hasn't really pointed out where things are happening and why they're happening. 81 00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:07.980 So I think the reason there are so many strong directors in this era is because they were necessary and the ones who are not very strong narratively, you do just get like, oh, now this Spiderman heads coming at me. 82 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:14.160 And this week we have a director who never comes back, is that right? 83 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:19.019 This is the only time that this particular director. 84 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:20.100 Peter Hall. 85 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:21.540 He has done a Vera. 86 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:22.079 I know that much. 87 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:29.220 By the way, I'm starting the campaign for Brenda Blethin, it's the new Doctor Who. 88 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:30.899 Ooh. 89 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:35.279 I'll add her to the list. 90 00:08:35.340 --> 00:08:36.360 I like that idea a lot. 91 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.200 I think it's an oddly structured episode. 92 00:08:40.259 --> 00:08:42.960 It's mostly setup and then not much climax. 93 00:08:43.019 --> 00:08:45.419 The climax is kind of dealt with in about 5 minutes. 94 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:50.460 And then there's 10 minutes of downtime where Stephen kind of vamps and then there's a twist. 95 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:53.039 It's quite an odd episode. 96 00:08:53.100 --> 00:09:02.580 And I think what you were saying, Nathan, keeping the doctor out of the action for 20 minutes, it does service the plot, but actually it's a big part of the reason why I don't particularly like this episode because I want to see the doctor. 97 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:12.179 Yeah, I have a friend who can't stand that last Freeman adjumen season when the doctor's in the cage because he's like, well, I don't want to watch a show about desiccated doctor. 98 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:16.500 I want to watch the actual doctor beating things instead of one of his mates wandering around the world doing stuff. 99 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:21.240 The 20 minutes before the doctor arrives all about the doctor. 100 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:37.740 And there is an issue that a lot of people have with Moffat's era in particular, which is that the doctor becomes a kind of fetish object, like the doctor is now suddenly famous and everyone has this sort of massive opinion of him. 101 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:40.379 And that's exactly what's happening in this episode. 102 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:44.039 He's being set up to be an incredibly frightening figure. 103 00:09:44.100 --> 00:09:48.659 And the entire 1st half of the episode is about that. 104 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:54.419 And then there's a twist at the end about how that's a problem. 105 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:06.779 The fact that he is so frightening is what has caused the abduction of Amy's baby and said all of this in motion, that in some way, he's at fault. 106 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:17.759 And like I've said before, that Russell T. Davis creates a universe for the doctor to operate in and is mostly interested in kind of TV realistic characters. 107 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:23.279 So, you know, like soap characters, not real realism, but television realism. 108 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:27.299 Whereas Moffatt's characters are programmatic. 109 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.720 They are sitcom characters in a way. 110 00:10:30.779 --> 00:10:39.539 They behave in a way that we can predict and they behave in a way that makes jokes about them sort of easier. 111 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.659 You know, we know how Amy's going to react to something. 112 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:45.179 We know how Raw is going to react. 113 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:52.860 And it makes sense for him to make the doctor, the centre because he's telling Doctor Who stories and the doctor's the star of the show. 114 00:10:52.919 --> 00:11:09.840 And so what he's doing is he has a doctor, not a doctor that just sort of wanders through the universe, but a doctor who has starred in 100s and 100s of Doctor Who stories, in all of which he's kind of blown the enemy up or something like that, he's defeated them in part four. 115 00:11:09.899 --> 00:11:17.639 And so his doctor is this mythic figure about whom stories are told and who always sort of defeats people in the end. 116 00:11:18.179 --> 00:11:21.299 It's the peak of doctor as legend, isn't it? 117 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:35.580 And I'm glad that I'm glad that Moffat does deal with that in a story way, but to my mind, it's just never as interesting as when the doctor's wandering minstrel when he just kind of turns up somewhere and says, I'm the doctor and sort of sneaks his way into a situation. 118 00:11:36.059 --> 00:11:38.820 So if you take that to the 8th degree. 119 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:58.860 I mean, Moffat's characters only really exist as cyphers for the storytelling to the point that with later companions, that as Brenton has often pointed out, there are 3 different versions of Clara. 3 main different versions of Clara, depending on which season you're in. 120 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.980 And that's before you add in all of the little splinters. 121 00:12:01.980 --> 00:12:11.159 And like, and that's supposed to be the same person, that main character is supposed to be the same person, but she operates completely differently because that's what the script needs her to do. 122 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:12.240 But we're getting ahead of ourselves. 123 00:12:12.299 --> 00:12:14.340 She has different jobs in different families. 124 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:16.799 Yeah, yeah. 125 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:17.580 Yeah. 126 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:34.620 Well, and and that's an approach that Doctor Who fans often don't like because Doctor Who fans want to regard all of this stuff as real events that happen to made up people and that all take place in a sort of consistent world. 127 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:42.480 And Moffat aggressively dislikes that approach and actually kind of deliberately fights against it. 128 00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:45.539 And like, I think that's okay. 129 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:56.220 Like, I think, you know, a version of Doctor Who that's kind of aware that it's a story and that it's not real and that plays with narrative can be sort of terribly interesting. 130 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:07.679 But the one thing that I think you really lose is the ability to kind of identify with and sympathise with the characters. 131 00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:11.820 And that's not just because they're a bit unlikeable. 132 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:14.879 Like I really like Amy and Rory and River. 133 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:16.620 I love this crew. 134 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.720 I think they're really fun. 135 00:13:18.779 --> 00:13:20.879 They're funny, they're witty, they're interesting. 136 00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:30.360 But what the problem is that such terrible things happen to them, that they stop seeming like real people in any way. 137 00:13:30.419 --> 00:13:34.919 A bit like Sarah Jane in season 12 and 13. 138 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:36.120 Yeah. 139 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:47.519 It's something like it's right there in the teaser as well, that uncomfortable marriage of kind of Doctor Who's standard adventure and optimism and then the reality of someone having their baby torn from their arms. 140 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:51.240 And so I think you're right, Amy ceased being a real person. 141 00:13:51.299 --> 00:14:00.120 Karen is still brilliant, but Amy's been held captive and sort of forced to carry a baby to term, and yet her distress can't be shown to viscerally. 142 00:14:00.179 --> 00:14:05.940 So it's only kind of hinted at awkwardly in amid all her oncoming storm guff about the doctor. 143 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:22.740 And it feels like such a reverse or on the past few seasons where we've had, you know, huge overhauls to people's families, you know, that the end of doomsday is just like this devastating emotional moment and you would think someone having their baby ripped out of their arms. 144 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:32.039 Uh, never to be seen again, essentially, would be more distressing than just being on the other side of a wall from someone you kind of liked. 145 00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:39.179 But no, this is treated like, oh, it's another inconvenience in our day of inconveniences. 146 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:44.279 In fact, the doctor fixes Rose's family in doomsday. 147 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:50.460 You know, the big hole at the centre of Rose's family, the absence of Pete, the death of her farmer, is fixed. 148 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.960 The doctor leaves that family better than when he found it. 149 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:59.639 Um, He, like, this is so awful. 150 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:05.399 And I just don't know why, why he thinks that it's okay. 151 00:15:05.460 --> 00:15:12.720 And we'll look next week at how he tries to make up for it and he also tries to make up for it in the season finale. 152 00:15:12.779 --> 00:15:16.320 He does do things that try to make this okay. 153 00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:33.299 But I just can't see how that's even possible because it's not just the sort of the incredible body horror at the end of last week's episode where you wake up pregnant with Francis Barber looking down at your personal details. 154 00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:46.620 And you're suddenly pregnant and you're giving birth, and then the baby gets taken off you, and then the baby collapses into a pile of sick, you know, while you're holding it in your arms. 155 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:50.340 And then the baby turns out to be that woman from ER. 156 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:51.899 Like, it's a very strange episode. 157 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.299 Very complicated. 158 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.679 You could have said giving birth in front of a turf, but... 159 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:13.559 She's so awful. 160 00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:27.840 Part of me wonders if Moffat wasn't having a very good time in his personal life because George Lucas and Stephen Spielberg have spoken at length about the fact that they don't think Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, which is one of my favourite films, is very successful. 161 00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:34.200 They think it's too dark and it goes to places which aren't appropriate because they weren't having a good time in their personal lives. 162 00:16:34.259 --> 00:16:42.419 So I wonder if there was something happening with Moffat where he just kind of lost his filter over what would quite be appropriate and what was a little bit over the line. 163 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:44.340 I think he was trying to do too much. 164 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:50.460 Like, you know, when Davis is running the show, there were 2 other shows running concurrently. 165 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:56.220 Um, and Moffatt's really struggling to do this and Sherlock at the same time. 166 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.759 Like, it's he's obviously missing deadlines all over the place. 167 00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:02.399 It's things aren't going to plan. 168 00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:03.779 It's, yeah. 169 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:12.359 And also, you know, where heading towards the 50th anniversary, which turned into some crazy nightmare of a situation. 170 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:26.819 But yeah, I just think he's not on top of, I think his writing is like you were saying before earlier, Nathan, about the, you know, all the riderly things that you go, you would have changed at it like later on. 171 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:28.920 I just don't think you ever got around to that 3rd draft. 172 00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:33.240 I think he just never got around to, oh, this is actually terrible with a voiceover. 173 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:33.779 Let's change it. 174 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:35.759 This is terrible with a flashback. 175 00:17:35.819 --> 00:17:36.420 Let's fix it. 176 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:40.140 But he just didn't have time to go, I don't have time for another draft. 177 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:41.759 This is this is how this episode is now. 178 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:43.200 Just go make it. got other things to do. 179 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:51.420 And he's such a brilliant writer that even when he delivers something like this, which is a little bit disjointed and doesn't quite have a real plot holding it together. 180 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:52.619 It's still full of great things. 181 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.400 And you think if he did get round to that 3rd draft, it would probably be brilliant. 182 00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:58.380 Yeah, there's a lot in what you're saying. 183 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:04.079 I have to say, even though it's probably having been in lockdown since, you know, the dawn of time now. 184 00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:16.920 Um, I, I actually had a tear at the end when, when River gives the whole, you're my parents kind of bit and it's like, are you sure I just wasn't, are you sure it wasn't a splatter of baby gunk? 185 00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:18.240 It could have been baby gun. 186 00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:19.980 It does smile. 187 00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:26.460 Having said that, I have cried about 4 TV shows this week, so I might be in some sort of emotional distress of my own. 188 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.099 Don't let me write Doctor Who this week. 189 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:42.180 I think the other problem is that so last year was all about Amy, Amy's decision between adulthood and childhood. 190 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.299 You know, do I become an adult and get married? 191 00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:49.680 Or do I run away with my imaginary friend from childhood? 192 00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:53.940 And the sort of synthesis at the end is actually, why not both? 193 00:18:54.059 --> 00:18:56.579 And so that's what ends up happening. 194 00:18:56.700 --> 00:19:06.900 But that arc, which we really liked, does make marriage an important marker of adulthood for a woman. 195 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:12.779 And that's, I mean, it's true, but there's something kind of slightly uncomfortable about that. 196 00:19:12.900 --> 00:19:18.900 And then to kind of go into, which is a very television thing, isn't it? 197 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:23.940 That you have sex on your wedding night and then you're immediately pregnant. 198 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:27.660 And then we age up the child. 199 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:29.160 Do you know what I mean? 200 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.039 So that it can continue to be in this television show. 201 00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:35.700 Like, there's something uncomfortable about that. 202 00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:37.680 It's not okay. 203 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:46.859 No, no, and and also just kind of making pregnancy so pregnancy and childbirth. 204 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:51.180 So kind of weird and upsetting and alien, you know, that... 205 00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:52.740 Well, also weirdly functional. 206 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.240 Like it's, it's just like, oh, you can do this in a cupboard with a peephole. fine. 207 00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:07.920 This is the man that gave us the John Hurt moment in coupling for Jane's pregnancy. 208 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:11.819 Oh my god, yeah, yeah, yeah. that's right I had forgotten about that. 209 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:21.180 And like I do think that coupling is important to kind of go back and look at because his weird attitudes to women, I don't know. 210 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:26.039 I think it's just the perils of putting a heterosexual man in charge of the show, I think, probably. 211 00:20:26.099 --> 00:20:27.660 It shouldn't be permitted. 212 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:44.519 It has the same kind of awkward feeling as if Rachel from Friends had gotten pregnant, but then Phoebe decided to steal the baby, and then fallen on the subway tracks, and Rachel instead had taken one of Ross's, but yeah, it's that kind of thing where you think this doesn't work at all. 213 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:46.799 I'm not feeling this. 214 00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:48.180 It doesn't fit the show. 215 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:50.160 Do you know what? 216 00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:55.380 When you were talking about season one just now or season five, technically, but Moffat's 1st series. 217 00:20:55.500 --> 00:21:08.339 The subtext of both of these series is we start with a little kid or at even an infant, and then we see that the next time we see them, they're hypersexualized and an adult. 218 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:12.660 So we've gone from little girl Amy to Amy the strippergram. 219 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.299 Yeah. like hypersexualized adult. 220 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:19.680 And then we've gone from this infant to River song who is constantly trying to bone the doctor. 221 00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:28.200 So it's like, what is what are you trying to say about children and what happens to them in the blink of an eye? 222 00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:31.980 It is a really, it's a troubling subtext through the whole series. 223 00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:38.400 He doesn't have any daughters, does he? 224 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:41.819 He's got kids, but yeah. 225 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.839 There probably is stuff playing on Mothat's mind about kind of families and raising families. 226 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.660 And I think this goes back to what you were saying earlier, Adam, about time. 227 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:52.619 Moffat was a father and had a family. 228 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:54.359 And so his time is finite. 229 00:21:54.420 --> 00:21:55.440 I have some sympathy for him. 230 00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:58.980 And Russell D. Davis did make himself quite ill running all those shows. 231 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:02.160 Like he was not in a good way by the end of all that. 232 00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:05.880 Didn't he end up with pneumonia during the making of the specials? 233 00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:07.019 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 234 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:08.039 He was not okay. 235 00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:15.180 No, there's a there's a really quite troubling scene in the writer's heart where he talks about actually having a panic attack during a signing. 236 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.539 You know, he really, really did drive himself into the ground. 237 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:25.920 And Moffatt is, as you said before, Adam, doing something more ambitious than what Russell is doing. 238 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.960 Like, I love Russell's Doctor Who to death, I think it's the best the program's ever been. 239 00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:39.960 But if you were to complain that he made the same season 4 years in a row, it would be pretty hard to kind of argue against that. 240 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:50.940 Whereas, whereas what Moffat's doing is, is more ambitious, and this arc in particular is the most ambitious arc the show ever attempts. 241 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:52.259 What about the arc? 242 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:53.160 What? 243 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:57.240 That is also ambitious. 244 00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:58.920 It is very ambient. 245 00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:01.680 There's a lot of balls in the air. 246 00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:10.619 You know, there's a lot of things going on and a lot of moving parts to kind of fit together and he does that sort of reasonably well. 247 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.240 But yeah, it's clearly kind of getting out of hand, I think, at this point. 248 00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:24.720 It is really entertaining, like, all the way through. 249 00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:27.059 Like, it's relentlessly entertaining. 250 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:33.960 Like that opening gambit with Rory in the centurion outfit for reasons that can only be described as hilarious. 251 00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:37.440 And then the exploding cyberfleet. 252 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:52.440 Although I will say that was another thing watching this episode that reminded me of how Moffat minimised the shows legendary kind of monsters and aliens. and made them kind of props, for want of a bit of word. 253 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:55.079 Like ciphermen are only ever kind of props. 254 00:23:55.140 --> 00:23:58.259 And didn't we just do that 9 episodes ago as well? 255 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:00.000 Essentially. 256 00:24:00.059 --> 00:24:01.980 Yeah, that's absolutely right. 257 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:03.960 They're there for a throwaway line. 258 00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:06.180 And it's a great throwaway line. 259 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:23.220 I mean, Rory stressed as a centurion because we're doing that thing where we have Amy doing a voiceover to melody about someone who's coming to save them and us thinking that that's the doctor only to discover that she's talking about Rory. 260 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:35.099 And so he's dressed as a centurion because suddenly instead of the lone censure and he's the last centurion, so that the he's the last of his kind line works and becomes kind of ambiguous. 261 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:40.740 So it's, you know, you can see how he's sort of trying to get there, but it is pretty great. 262 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:50.460 And, and it's nice to see Rory not operating in his sort of standard nervous sitcom male role. 263 00:24:50.519 --> 00:25:05.940 And but when he just sort of says, like, do you remember Sylvester McCoy not flinching as he walks away from the tent exploding in greatest show, Rory has what is admittedly like a giant CG explosion happening behind him. 264 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.259 But just that, would you like me to repeat the question line? 265 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:11.579 is so great. 266 00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:13.500 It's really, really, properly good. 267 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:18.299 Yeah, it just reminded me that Moffatt, like, used the Daleks as set dressing. 268 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:20.099 Never a menace, really. 269 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:27.660 Um, except maybe a sign of the Daleks, where they're kind of horrific and terrifying and always around the corner. 270 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:37.619 But yeah, like it, it's always like he's, it's taken the, the tropes of the show and made them into, you know, oh, we have to have a cyberman. 271 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:39.960 We'll just pop it in for 4 minutes and then we can move on. 272 00:25:40.019 --> 00:25:43.440 We'll have a Silurian and she's a Victorian lesbian. 273 00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:43.859 It's fine. 274 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:46.980 It is just real. 275 00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:52.859 I don't understand the weird kind of like, 0 yeah, this is we're having some cosplay on the stand. 276 00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:02.400 I actually think that this is the 1st episode that renders the Santarans completely unuseable from here on in. 277 00:26:02.460 --> 00:26:04.500 I don't know how you can have them as monsters. 278 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:11.339 And I think Chibnell last year made the Siberian's completely unuseable from here on in. 279 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:18.420 And so I actually don't mind that they're there and I think that they are genuinely funny. 280 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:26.940 Like, I think Strax is hilarious and, you know, he's obviously brought back over and over again because he is so incredibly good and his shtick is really great. 281 00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:30.900 I mean, he dies this episode, but that doesn't stop Moffatt bringing him back. 282 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.000 It's like his 4th Santarian. 283 00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:34.259 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 284 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.220 Dan Starkey. 285 00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:37.619 It's the 4th time he's playing different sometimes. 286 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.339 And he's great. 287 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:39.000 He's terrific. 288 00:26:39.059 --> 00:26:40.380 Moffat does do that a lot. 289 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:40.980 Yeah, yeah. 290 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:43.859 He kills people off and then goes, oh, actually, I like that. 291 00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.240 Yeah, they can just come back. 292 00:26:45.299 --> 00:26:46.079 It's Doctor Who. 293 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:49.259 Let's get let's get Nadol back from wherever he went to. 294 00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:51.299 He does it with Rory all the time. 295 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.819 Killed off Rory. 296 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:54.599 Oh no, I like him. 297 00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:55.380 Let's bring that. 298 00:26:55.500 --> 00:27:09.480 I love how practically 2 years later, they even did a pickup prequel for the snowman where they explained why he wasn't dead, like they actually filmed a scene to explain why it wasn't dead. 299 00:27:09.539 --> 00:27:13.259 And then thoughtfully left it out so that we didn't have to watch it. 300 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.059 And I think Vastra and Jenny are really great as well. 301 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:30.839 And, you know, like he's, he, I think I remember him being made aware that there were no queer characters in series 5 and so he decides to include some queer characters here. 302 00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:35.940 And I think in neither case are they at all successful? 303 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:43.380 So we had the fat, thin, gay married Anglicans. 304 00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:45.180 And Moffat seemed... 305 00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:45.960 Anglican Marines. 306 00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:50.460 Yeah, Moffatt seems to think that gay Anglicans are in some way unusual. 307 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:54.599 You know, like it's like he knows literally nothing about the church at all. 308 00:27:54.660 --> 00:28:00.839 It's lousy with gay organists and gay verges and all of that. 309 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:03.480 Like, I don't know why he thinks they would. 310 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.240 I don't know why he thinks they wouldn't need names. 311 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:07.500 It's very strange. 312 00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:13.019 And of course, we bet, you know, one of them is killed or, you know, beheaded. 313 00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:16.920 As soon as anyone says they're gay in the Moffatt area, they are gone. 314 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.240 Yeah, yeah. 315 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.420 It's a case of bury your gays head in a box. 316 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:22.500 Yeah, yeah. 317 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.839 And then you've got Jenny and Madame Vastra. 318 00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:36.420 And like, I think they're really sort of fun, but I do think that they are very much a sort of straight man's lesbian fantasy. 319 00:28:36.539 --> 00:28:38.579 Especially when the tongue comes out. 320 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:39.779 The tongue joke. 321 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.420 It's like the tub joke is genuinely properly funny. 322 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.220 I do think it's funny. 323 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.359 But it is, you know, straight man writing lesbians. 324 00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:48.960 Absolutely. 325 00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:56.700 And like, this is the man who brought us lesbian spank Inferno as an episode of coupling. 326 00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:57.539 Do you know what I mean? 327 00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:01.259 That was his character's favourite porn video. 328 00:29:01.619 --> 00:29:05.099 Victorian, lizard, lesbians, Bank Inferno. 329 00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:07.380 Is that something to do with Liz Shaw? 330 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:12.000 I mean, that's why he named it that. 331 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:21.299 The name of the video did come from Inferno. like he was inspired by that and then developed it into a lesbian joke. 332 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:29.880 Private gentleman time imagining Petra and Liz, you know, in during their off hours, maybe. 333 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.539 Maybe... in the Inferno nightclub with somebody who knows. 334 00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:35.940 Oh, Lord. 335 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.240 Don't have grinding up on Polly. 336 00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:56.759 The retrofitting of Vastra and Jenny is married. 337 00:29:56.819 --> 00:30:02.579 Make those scenes where Jenny is clearly just a household servant, a little bit uncomfortable for me. 338 00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:06.900 It's like, widely carry on this pretence when no one else is around. 339 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:14.400 I always read it as they were in a relationship, even in this episode, because there's that whole sort of thing. 340 00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:16.559 Like, I mean, yes, they're married later. 341 00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:21.299 Or like, does she refer to her wife in her wife in this episode? 342 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.539 No, no, but they're clearly boning. 343 00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.059 Like they're clearly having sex because otherwise... 344 00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:28.920 Well, they're having weird, doesn't work. tongue sex. 345 00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:29.519 Yeah, yeah. 346 00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:32.519 But only when her poison sack is empty. 347 00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:33.660 Yeah. 348 00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:36.000 I went too fast, sorry. 349 00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:38.579 That is not too far at all. 350 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:40.920 But I think that I think Pete's right. 351 00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:50.519 There is something weird about her still being an employee and being a domestic employee and also is she like, does that imply she's some sort of sex life? 352 00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:51.420 Like, what is? 353 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:59.460 Yeah, there's nothing in that 1st scene of them where you sort of think, you know, that you learn that there's more to it later on, but it just looks like employer and employee. 354 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:00.779 And you think no one else is around. 355 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:02.220 Is this just like your play? 356 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:03.000 this what you do? 357 00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:06.359 Or is this or is this troubling power dynamics? 358 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:07.619 Is Jenny have like, no. 359 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:09.839 No agency at all. 360 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:10.440 She's into it. 361 00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:12.539 She's totally Except for the one that got her the job. 362 00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:19.799 So that is actually a really terrifically funny scene as well, I think, you know. 363 00:31:19.859 --> 00:31:33.359 And that's the other thing, that I think it's Santa who says that Bob Holmes could write Doctor Who in his sleep, and we know that because we've seen the results. 364 00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:41.099 And it's true here with Moffatt that Moffatt can just vamp. 365 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:49.680 Like he can just spend 20 minutes kind of delaying the doctor's arrival with all of this stuff and still make entertaining TV, I think. 366 00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:58.740 And I think it is, there is a point to it, of course, because fetishising the doctor is a problem and becomes a problem. 367 00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:21.660 And so we learn for the 2nd time, again, Peter, sort of 98 episodes ago, that the real issue here is that the doctor is appears so powerful that the doctor defeats everyone in episode 4 so many 100s of times that he is the cause of all of this. 368 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:29.579 And he's presented as a frightening figure even to his allies in those opening scenes where the TARDIS appears and we don't see him. 369 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.099 And the Tartis appears as a threat. 370 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:35.160 He's calling in various debts. 371 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:48.779 And Dorium, actually, you know, he actually says, oh, you know, I pity the people who the TARDIS is turning up and meeting right now just before the TARDIS turns up and kind of takes him. 372 00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:50.339 He's fantastic in that. 373 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.019 That's a delicious performance, isn't it? 374 00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:54.299 He's so great. 375 00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:55.500 I'm fat, I'm old. 376 00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:56.940 I'm blue, you know. 377 00:32:56.940 --> 00:33:05.039 I do like how they got Matt's stunt double to stand in for his silhouette. silhouette. 378 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.559 It's a completely different haircut. 379 00:33:07.619 --> 00:33:11.279 I was just like, like a little sort of cardboard cutout. 380 00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:18.900 I mean, I do wonder if this is, you know, if this is Moffatt's attempt to give Matt Smith a week off work. 381 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:24.539 You know, some parts of the episode have obviously been filmed during other episodes. 382 00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:30.240 Like, for instance, the, old mate, from Downton Abbey as the pirate, like they would have just shot that on the day he was in. 383 00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:32.339 There's no for him to come back and do that. 384 00:33:32.339 --> 00:33:35.579 Because he doesn't interact with the rest of the story at all. 385 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.099 Yeah, he's not even in shot with anybody else. 386 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:38.940 No. 387 00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:48.059 And the Danny Boy stuff is all voice, you know, it's all just kind of ADR and footage from victory of the Daleks. 388 00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:49.559 Like there's nothing new there at all. 389 00:33:49.619 --> 00:33:55.079 I was going to say they recorded they actually thought ahead and recorded that when they were recording victory of the Dale. 390 00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:56.640 I think so. 391 00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:07.019 But yeah, I did love that aspect of like, you know, because that's something you always wished for when you were watching Doctor Who as a kid. 392 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:11.880 It's like, oh, I wish, you know, the brigadier would just pop up for like 2 minutes and go, yeah, yeah, it's all sorted. 393 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:13.860 But instead it's just, you know, like in time flight. 394 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:16.380 It's like, oh, just call unit and someone will sort it out. 395 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:18.119 It's like, we're not hiring Nick, that's cool. 396 00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:18.719 Yeah, yeah. 397 00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:21.480 Well, you see, I'm a big fan of the time monster. 398 00:34:21.539 --> 00:34:31.860 And what would have made the time was to complete if it wasn't Ruth, but it was actually Liz Shaw, who was up there at Cambridge doing those things and she'd actually come back like, you know, a season or 2 later and she interacted with the master. 399 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.360 That would have been brilliant. 400 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.820 And that's the kind of thing that we do get in modern Doctor Who. 401 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:36.539 Yeah. 402 00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.400 I feel like this is a lot of fan service. 403 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:39.300 Yeah. 404 00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:44.639 They'll just recast her with her daughter and get her to come back and be turned into a Primord for big commercial. 405 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:47.039 That was a very strange episode. 406 00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.719 So we wait 20 minutes for the doctor to come back. 407 00:34:51.780 --> 00:35:03.480 And the doctor defeats the villains in the absolute most doctor-ish way possible by kind of, uh, like he's fun and silly when he arrives. 408 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:08.460 Like the moment he arrives, he's being talked up as this big giant terrifying threat. 409 00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:16.440 And, you know, we pull the hood down and it's him and it's just Matt Smith being a sort of big idiot, like he always is, which is just kind of terribly delightful. 410 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:22.380 And then he creates tension between the monks and the clerics. 411 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.380 You know, like he gets, he sort of tricks them. 412 00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:32.579 He gives that fantastic speech to Colonel Manton, which is just Matt being sort of incredible. 413 00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:34.260 So it's all Matt talking. 414 00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:35.760 And then we get this announcement. 415 00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:38.460 We've captured demons run without a shot fired. 416 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:39.420 Everyone leaves. 417 00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:40.679 You know, all of that. 418 00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:49.320 And so we get the doctor fetishized as this sort of horrible threat, but then when he arrives, so we see the usual sort of fun doctorary way of solving the problem. 419 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:55.380 And then you've got this kind of terribly awkward feeling because there's still kind of 15 minutes of episode left. 420 00:35:55.980 --> 00:36:02.280 And so this can't be, you know, this can't be him winning the day. 421 00:36:02.340 --> 00:36:10.380 Even in this episode, we're not going to spend 15 minutes spinning our wheels and then having the TARDIS materialise. 422 00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:19.980 There is something terribly Doctor Who-ish in the fact that the doctor's army is made up of distractors and the random pirate captains and their sons from Emmerdale, that feels right. 423 00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:24.000 Because when Doctor Who does military, military is never very interesting. 424 00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:27.119 I think we talked about this, Adam, on the Santaran structure. 425 00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:34.260 The way that unit is presented is not very fun. 70s unit works because it's the lovely old brigadier and his friends. 426 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:38.579 Whereas when it becomes, you know, a crack operation with lorries and swanky blackberries. 427 00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:39.360 It's no fun. 428 00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:48.539 And so in this episode, the doctor's army is comprised of fun characters up against this kind of faceless religious army. 429 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.699 Yeah, and this army is quite boring. 430 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:56.940 Like even, oh, mate, Bucket, like we're meant to love her and she's like, look, I've done some embroidery. 431 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.440 I met the doctor when I was a kid. 432 00:36:59.699 --> 00:37:02.699 And now I'm going to pass away on some stairs. 433 00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:14.159 Like, you kind of want to feel for her because she's written as a character that you should feel for, but she's never really given anything to do to care about. 434 00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:20.219 Like, everyone sort of talks about her or talks to her in a way it's like, oh, bless, you're here. 435 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:21.360 Oh, you met the doctor once. 436 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:21.840 How nice. 437 00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:24.179 And then he has no idea who she is. 438 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:28.739 I think I actually really like that because if we are critiquing the doctor as a character. 439 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:47.880 Like if we're saying that the doctor's a problem, having these people die because of the doctor, this young woman who ends up in this army just so she can meet the doctor again and the doctor doesn't even remember her, and that's particularly gutting, I think, because he pretends to remember her. 440 00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:49.860 And for a 2nd you think, 0 yeah, he does. 441 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:50.579 He does. 442 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:52.920 And then she dies and it's like, who was that? 443 00:37:52.980 --> 00:37:55.440 Like, that's kind of awful? 444 00:37:55.500 --> 00:37:56.460 Like the doctor. 445 00:37:56.519 --> 00:38:07.199 And that's one of the things that Moffat does is even Matt Smith's doctor, who is sort of cuddly and silly and fun, is also kind of a problem. 446 00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:12.539 He's kind of unlikeable and a bit a bit dreadful. 447 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.739 And, you know, there's a sort of self-portrait aspect to that, I think. 448 00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:19.260 So I like that. 449 00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:31.860 And the other thing that I like her in is in that scene with Karen, which I think is incredibly good, because the relationship between them seems to change in some way, like line by line. 450 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:42.059 You know, there's that wonderful thing where she sort of comes in and is sort of trying to apologise and you wonder whether Karen's going to warm to that. 451 00:38:42.059 --> 00:38:48.119 And she says, can I borrow your gun, which is almost impossible to kind of understanding context, like what's happening? 452 00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:53.159 And it's, you know, because I've got a feeling you're going to keep talking. 453 00:38:53.219 --> 00:38:55.619 And it's nice cold. 454 00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:01.500 It's really, but by the end of it, she has accepted the gift and has warm to her. 455 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:06.360 And I think I think the 2 of them work really, really well together. 456 00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:08.159 It's it's a good scene. 457 00:39:08.219 --> 00:39:12.900 So, like, I can see what she's doing there, I think. 458 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:18.480 She's not just there to drop the clue, you know, for the, you know, the thing. 459 00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:19.500 She is there. 460 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:20.460 I think. 461 00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:32.280 I thought she was there to allow Moffatt to use that idea that he'd come up with on Records, Doctor Who in 1995, that the name of the doctor was what inspired the word doctor. 462 00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:33.840 Yeah, okay. 463 00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:35.460 Yeah, yeah, there's that. 464 00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:37.619 And that, I think, is super telling as well. 465 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:44.699 You know, like the, we've had the master say that the doctor chose his name because he's the person who makes people better. 466 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:53.639 And so to have the idea that in fact, no, for the people of the gamma forest or whatever, the word doctor means a mighty warrior. 467 00:39:54.539 --> 00:40:02.880 And River, doing that speech, you know, when you're a silly old man and you left in the junkyard and all of that, she doesn't say that. 468 00:40:02.940 --> 00:40:13.800 But like when you 1st started out, you set out to explore the universe and instead you've just been blowing bad guys up for like 32 seasons or whatever, look what you've turned into. 469 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.320 Like, you know, I think that's good. 470 00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:17.219 I think that's interesting. 471 00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:22.199 Yeah, I love all that stuff, but it's, yeah, there's just, I don't know. 472 00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:36.420 Like, it's one of those things where I feel like this episode is less than the sum of its parts, because there's so many fun things in it, and it's so entertaining, and you've got that emotional gut punch at the end, and then you get to the end of it, and you're like, did anything happen? 473 00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:51.659 Other than a couple of, you know, ongoing plot points being a vaguely resolved with, you know, who is River, which has been going on for 3 years now, um, 4 years actually. 474 00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:57.900 And then, oh, but where's the baby, what's happening next? 475 00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:00.119 Like, where's what is going on with all this stuff? 476 00:41:00.179 --> 00:41:02.820 We've still got the unresolved thing from episode one hanging over our head. 477 00:41:02.940 --> 00:41:03.659 Yeah. 478 00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:09.179 And yeah, it feels like it's it's doing a lot to do nothing. 479 00:41:09.659 --> 00:41:15.659 It reminds me of kind of 80s Doctor Who. like relentlessly entertaining heaps of guest stars. 480 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:20.940 Amazing lighting, but who the fuck knows what happens in earth shop, really. 481 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:39.960 You kind of get the feeling with this episode that it's really a rearranging of chess pieces on a board to get them into the position you need for the rest of the season. 482 00:41:40.019 --> 00:41:43.380 And then you don't really use it until the last episode anyway. 483 00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.039 Yeah. 484 00:41:44.099 --> 00:41:48.119 I want to compare it to Planet of Fire. 485 00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:49.139 Right. 486 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:49.920 Oh, yeah. 487 00:41:49.980 --> 00:42:00.780 And Planet of Fire has to write out the Master has to introduce Perry, has to write out a Chameleon has to write out Turlow. 488 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:05.579 And it doesn't quite function as a story because of that. 489 00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:09.840 But I don't mind that. 490 00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:16.079 Like, I actually think that the idea that the doctor has to have a sort of complex adventure every week. 491 00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:23.159 I think that's a problem and it's much, much more interesting to do something, say, like Boomtown, right? 492 00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:34.260 Where there isn't really a story there, but there's a lot of character interaction and there's a central moral dilemma and there's a theme and some interesting, funny stuff. 493 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:42.480 And so, while I don't think this is as successful as Boomtown at all, like I'm not nearly. 494 00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:47.699 I'm absolutely having that badland in it, so it can't be successful. 495 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:48.420 Well, that's it. 496 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.440 By definition. 497 00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:57.719 They're the rules But I'm not completely cross at it because it doesn't actually manage to have a story in a way. 498 00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:02.159 It feels to me like this is an arc condensed into an episode. 499 00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:12.420 So all the things that happen in this episode without any real linking story or themes to them. other things that feel like they should be spread over a season or half a season to get to this point. 500 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:13.500 Yeah. 501 00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:22.559 And I mean, bringing all the, I guess, bringing all those people back from previous episodes is trying to go, well, that's why they were in that episode because they were really integral to this one. 502 00:43:22.619 --> 00:43:25.019 It's like, no, you've done it the wrong way around, right? 503 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:36.480 Each episode since the day of the moon has reiterated the arc elements, but hasn't progressed them in any way. 504 00:43:36.539 --> 00:43:48.420 So all that we've had are scenes reminding us that Amy knows the doctor's going to die, that the doctor knows that Amy has some weird quantum pregnancy that might be happening or might not be happening. 505 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:51.179 We've had... 506 00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:53.880 So we keep being reminded of those things. 507 00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:02.159 And I think we decided that their presence in Curse of the Black Spot actually caused proper problems with that story. 508 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:06.119 But they don't progress the arc at all. 509 00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:11.940 So basically you've got the impossible astronaut that sets up all of these kind of weird plot things. 510 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:20.159 You've got this which seems to have no function other than to progress the bigger plot, but doesn't actually manage really to be a story in itself. 511 00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:25.199 And it, like, I think we might find that that continues next time as well. 512 00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:32.880 I think part of my distaste with this episode is because of it felt like it was going somewhere amazing. 513 00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:42.360 And then most of the exposition that relates to where this, where this went after this is done kind of offscreen. 514 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:46.440 It's sort of like, oh, yeah, I was raised to be a psychopath. 515 00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:48.840 I was like, okay. 516 00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:51.900 And part of it is high expectations as well. 517 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.360 I'm used to Moffat delivering, damn it. 518 00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:58.980 I'm used to him delivering all this arc stuff and telling a really good story at the same time. 519 00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:00.840 So when he doesn't, I'm like, come on. 520 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:13.380 I just find, yeah, I think he's just like, the ending is emotionally satisfying, but I feel like narratively, it doesn't, it doesn't satisfy. 521 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:19.500 Also, again, this is because future episodes kind of tear it apart, but we've had 3 really impactful deaths right here at the end. 522 00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:25.440 And at least 2 of them turn up again in some form, even though one is ahead in a box. 523 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.579 And one of them is an idiot nurse. 524 00:45:29.699 --> 00:45:38.519 But, you know, like the only real death is the one character who was not really well developed, except for one scene she had with Amy. 525 00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:55.800 So it's, Yeah, I feel like it's, I don't know, like, after the death of the flight attendant in midnight, who you just go, Reiki, just doing an amazing job, like you really get a sense of her as a character. 526 00:45:55.860 --> 00:46:00.239 And so that sacrifice at the end of that episode is quite impactful. 527 00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:03.420 But here people are being killed left, right and centre and you're like, oh, yeah. 528 00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:04.079 Okay. 529 00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:17.519 I also think too, that if the if the central thing of the story is learning something about the doctor, that the doctor is a problem in some way and that the doctor has caused this. 530 00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:28.800 But we're not really in a position for the doctor to be able to learn from that and do better in future because the story is about him going to planets and saving them and blowing up bad guys. 531 00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:33.599 And so this revelation is interesting to us in a way. 532 00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:38.280 It gives us pause about whether the doctor is a good person or not. 533 00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:40.860 And that's something that he'll continue to develop. 534 00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:45.539 But like, what does it, what does the doctor learn from this? 535 00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:48.179 How is he going to mend his ways? 536 00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:49.559 How can he possibly do that? 537 00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:52.079 It's slightly meaningless, isn't it? 538 00:46:53.099 --> 00:46:55.800 Like it's, again, it's all fun. 539 00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:58.619 Like it is relentlessly fun all the way through. 540 00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:10.199 Great gags, amazing, you know, big explosive moments, but then it's, I don't know, it's, at the end, you feel like you've had too much sugar and there have been no vegetables for dinner. 541 00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:12.300 That's just dinner for me. 542 00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:43.920 Well, the listener, that's all we have time for this week. 543 00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:51.719 We'll be taking a short mid season break, but we'll be back soon to continue the search from Melody Pond in Let's Kill Hitler. 544 00:47:51.840 --> 00:48:09.539 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flights for entirety on Facebook at FTE podcast on Twitter and on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody interterra, and maximum power. 545 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:12.780 Adam, where can people find you? 546 00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:16.139 Uh, just in my house, like everyone else. 547 00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:18.539 Not allowed to leave. 548 00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:21.840 I'm at Adam Richard on Twitter and Instagram. 549 00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:30.059 Fabulous Adam Richard on Facebook, and you can listen to my Daily Doctor Who podcast, which is Adam Richard has a theory, where I do. 550 00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:31.019 It was only 10 minutes a day. 551 00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:32.159 Dont worry, I'm not gonna freak you out. 552 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:40.739 Well, until next time, remember that when someone tries to convert you to their religion, it's usually a good idea to decline politely. 553 00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.619 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 554 00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:44.940 Good night. 555 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:46.079 Good night. 556 00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:46.619 Good night. 557 00:48:50.820 --> 00:48:56.760 That was flight through entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Gritter, Adam, Richard, and James Selwood. 558 00:48:56.820 --> 00:48:58.860 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam. 559 00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:05.760 This episode, Lesbian Spank Inferno, was recorded on the 22nd of August 2021 and released on the 24th of October. 560 00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:14.519 It was nearly 3 months between the 1st broadcast of a good man goes to war and let's kill Hitler, but we'll be back with you on the 7th of November. 561 00:49:14.579 --> 00:49:21.900 Before then, we'll have the television debut of Series 13 of Doctor Who and the return of Jody into Terra a couple of days later. 562 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:25.619 So go to JodyintoTera.com and subscribe now. 563 00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.039 There have been no vegetables for dinner. 564 00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:32.159 That's just dinner for me. 565 00:49:33.539 --> 00:49:36.119 Add lollies for dinner again. 566 00:49:36.179 --> 00:49:37.739 It's lockdown. 567 00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:38.579 You're allowed to have anything. 568 00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:40.019 I think that's an out. 569 00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:41.159 Do you know what I mean? 570 00:49:41.219 --> 00:49:42.119 Like, I think that's an ow. 571 00:49:42.179 --> 00:49:43.260 That sounds like a summary. 572 00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:44.159 Do you know what I mean? 573 00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:45.960 I think that sounds like a thing to go out on. 574 00:49:46.019 --> 00:49:46.619 Cool. 575 00:49:46.619 --> 00:49:49.079 So, yeah. 576 00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:57.179 Did you know, and I couldn't work this in at the time, because there wasn't no space, you know what Peter Hall went on to direct, Nathan? 577 00:49:57.300 --> 00:49:58.679 No. 578 00:49:58.679 --> 00:49:59.579 It's a sin. 579 00:49:59.699 --> 00:50:01.139 Wow. 580 00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:02.400 The whole thing. 581 00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:03.119 Yeah. 582 00:50:03.179 --> 00:50:04.500 He directed the entire thing. 583 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:05.519 Yeah. 584 00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:06.179 Wow. 585 00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:08.340 You know what he started on? 586 00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:09.420 Grange Hill. 587 00:50:09.539 --> 00:50:11.219 Oh, bless. 588 00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:12.000 Yay. 589 00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:17.099 That sounds like a pretty natural trajectory for sort of an English. 590 00:50:17.099 --> 00:50:20.760 Surprisingly little emotional growth between those 2 things. 591 00:50:22.500 --> 00:50:24.360 Oh, God. 592 00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:25.559 Seriously. 593 00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:30.780 Did anyone else really like the name Lorna Bucket? 594 00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:32.820 It's Amy Pond? 595 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:34.260 I mean, it is just AB Pond. 596 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:36.360 It's another one of his... 597 00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:37.860 Sherrytale names. 598 00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:41.940 That's carrying... the puddle. 599 00:50:42.059 --> 00:50:42.360 No. 600 00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:49.920 But, you know, like as in, she's the one that delivers the thing about the names being like water related. 601 00:50:49.980 --> 00:50:50.579 She's a bucket. 602 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:51.420 It's a bucket. 603 00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:51.840 Yeah, yeah. 604 00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:54.300 Like, she, oh my god. 605 00:50:54.900 --> 00:51:01.440 No, it's I think that that that's it. you know, anyway, the gamma forest who gives a shit? 606 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:10.079 My head can enter as being the offspring of Charlie Bucket from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Hyacinth Bucket. 607 00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:13.800 Bouquet. 608 00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:16.980 Bouquet. 609 00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:22.019 I decided the other day that Susan is Jenny's daughter. 610 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:24.179 Oh, brilliant. 611 00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:25.260 That's canon. 612 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.199 So that the doctor never has to have sex. 613 00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:30.599 Yeah, he's never had sex. 614 00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:36.719 Excepting that night that lasts 24 years in the husband's room. 615 00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:38.159 Jigsaw puzzles and stuff. 616 00:51:38.219 --> 00:51:44.880 Look, I think she was perpetually randy, but you know, sorting herself out. fiddling with his sonic screendriver. 617 00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:48.360 And she's fiddling with hers. putting up shelves. 618 00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:49.800 It has threesomes. 619 00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:50.400 That was a trowel. 620 00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:53.820 Hey, James, James, I'm sure you'll be able to tell me this. 621 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:55.139 Were they back at the paper mill? 622 00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:58.500 Um, for which scenes? 623 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:01.739 Well, all of them, sort of. 624 00:52:01.739 --> 00:52:02.579 No, no. 625 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:04.139 I don't think they were at a paper mill. 626 00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:05.039 Like they were... 627 00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:06.719 I do have it. 628 00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:07.320 Yeah. 629 00:52:08.460 --> 00:52:10.139 So... 630 00:52:10.139 --> 00:52:14.099 The battlefield is a cement factory. 631 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:16.320 Excellent. 632 00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:19.199 Like, you know, where they pick up tracks, yeah. 633 00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:28.079 And then the Demon's Run is an a mega army hanger. 634 00:52:28.139 --> 00:52:31.019 Like, um, yep. 635 00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:40.199 And, and then the, the sort of subterranean bits of that are um, or a power station in Newport. 636 00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:43.500 What if it wasn't the paper mill? 637 00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:47.280 I was going to say it was oddly missing it, you know, so painful. 638 00:52:47.340 --> 00:52:49.199 I just wanted to be back there. 639 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:55.619 Ed Thomas is standing in front of that paper mill with a shotgun and he won't let Pickwode anywhere near it. 640 00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:59.340 You can't touch it. 641 00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:00.960 That's it. 642 00:53:01.019 --> 00:53:07.619 Ed Thomas had been eating out of his misery from leaving the series and was now cast as Dorian. 643 00:53:08.340 --> 00:53:10.079 We're all there. 644 00:53:10.139 --> 00:53:11.940 I'll be there by the end of lockdown. 645 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:12.480 I tell you what. 646 00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:13.860 I'll be there by the end of the podcast. 647 00:53:13.860 --> 00:53:17.400 Did you know that Dorian was actually meant to be was actually meant to be Captain Jack? 648 00:53:17.699 --> 00:53:19.079 Really? 649 00:53:19.139 --> 00:53:21.420 Yeah, Captain Jack was meant to be back. 650 00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:24.119 But I think... 651 00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:24.840 Miracle Day. 652 00:53:25.260 --> 00:53:29.340 They also they also filmed a scene with Ud Sigma. 653 00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:33.420 Like they filmed the scene with a Sigma and cut it for time. 654 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.079 Yeah, because the ud get a credit at the end. 655 00:53:37.139 --> 00:53:38.760 Yeah, that's why the credits in the end. 656 00:53:38.820 --> 00:53:39.059 Yeah. 657 00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:41.340 Yeah, it's created by. 658 00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:42.900 I was like, I don't remember an oo. 659 00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:44.340 Yeah. 660 00:53:45.539 --> 00:53:52.739 It was already, you know, all of Moffat's day poll figures, you know, like pulled out of the cupboard. 661 00:53:52.980 --> 00:53:55.079 Sorted with no cap. 662 00:53:55.139 --> 00:53:57.119 And day Paul figures. 663 00:53:57.539 --> 00:54:00.059 Oh, no, that's... 664 00:54:00.059 --> 00:54:02.099 Well, that's what's... 665 00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:04.320 Webber fear part three. 666 00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:05.159 Don't talk about that. 667 00:54:05.219 --> 00:54:06.119 I haven't got it yet. 668 00:54:06.179 --> 00:54:07.079 I haven't ordered it. 669 00:54:07.139 --> 00:54:08.880 I've only watched it. 670 00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:15.960 You can come over and watch it at mine when I get received the Blu-ray. break lockdown to watch that. be illegal. 671 00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:19.320 Mick Fuller would come around to my house. 672 00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:21.960 All right. 673 00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:23.039 Okay, here goes. 674 00:54:23.099 --> 00:54:24.059 So let's do the outro. 675 00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.679 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.