WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:09:31 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:44.880 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast operated by miniaturised cross people. 2 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.799 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:46.859 --> 00:00:47.759 I'm James. 4 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:50.039 I'm Simon and I'm Kevin. 5 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:57.960 Well, it's been a few weeks since the doctor started his search for Melody Pond, and so I guess it's time to check in on his progress. 6 00:00:58.020 --> 00:01:03.299 And while we're at it, we've got a time machine, a Zoom call, and a deadly pandemic. 7 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:04.620 So what the hell? 8 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:06.060 Let's kill Hitler. 9 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:32.219 Kevin, you are on record saying that, um, this is one of your favourite series, am I right? 10 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.640 It's my absolute favourite series. 11 00:01:35.700 --> 00:01:36.659 Hands down. 12 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:39.000 It's massive comfort spot. 13 00:01:39.060 --> 00:01:40.079 I love the ambition. 14 00:01:40.140 --> 00:01:43.560 I don't love every episode in it, but to me, the best Doctor Who series. 15 00:01:43.620 --> 00:01:45.659 Don't have to have every episode not get out of the park. 16 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:53.519 They have to have an overall energy and overall ambition, an overall sense of meaning to them that I vibe with, and this one really hits the spot for me. 17 00:01:53.579 --> 00:01:58.439 How do you feel it sort of fits into the season then in that sense? 18 00:01:58.500 --> 00:01:59.579 This episode? 19 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:00.239 Yeah. 20 00:02:00.299 --> 00:02:07.439 I mean, I think it's exactly what's needed after a couple months away and an episode as big as a good man goes to war. 21 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:08.280 It's just fun. 22 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:09.360 It's cosy. 23 00:02:09.419 --> 00:02:12.780 It reminds you of why you love every single one of these characters. 24 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:16.020 Even while it shows river, especially in a totally different way. 25 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:20.039 And I just think it's a wonderful opener and a wonderful time. 26 00:02:20.099 --> 00:02:26.520 Certainly with casual fans I interact with, they usually regard this very well because it's just a very, very fun time. 27 00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:28.800 Just witticisms off the charts. 28 00:02:29.219 --> 00:02:49.620 I think we found last week that Goodman goes to war, we sort of found that a little bit strange just because there were a lot of elements and arc things that were happening, but that in a way it didn't seem to cohere quite into a story. 29 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:53.340 Oh, I rewatched it this morning and loved it. 30 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:54.659 So I'm going to have to disagree there. 31 00:02:54.780 --> 00:03:00.539 I actually found that I enjoyed it much more than I thought I would on the rewatch. 32 00:03:00.659 --> 00:03:09.000 And again, it is that thing where Moffatt's just, you know, like able to do things with dialogue that are just extraordinary. 33 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.360 And that's definitely on show here. 34 00:03:12.419 --> 00:03:17.039 I think this is as funny as Doctor Who has ever been, I think. 35 00:03:18.180 --> 00:03:25.680 And I think also that it does have things to say about kind of Doctor Who as a show. 36 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:32.280 And that was definitely the case last week, but there's some stuff like that in here today as well. 37 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:35.099 Shall we start with the opening? 38 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:38.939 Oh, I'm a big fan of that scene. 39 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:44.580 So when I 1st watched this, you know, tiny little teenager thinking I know everything. 40 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:52.500 I just see this red sports car race up through the crop circle, which is itself, you know, amazing visual, great way to say, we're back. 41 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.300 And I just thought, oh, it's river. 42 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:54.840 Hell yeah. 43 00:03:54.900 --> 00:03:56.879 And someone else steps out, who's not river? 44 00:03:56.939 --> 00:04:00.479 And I'm like, That seems like a river thing to do. 45 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:10.020 Yeah, I actually think she's incredibly well cast in that personification that she has. does ooze river. 46 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.259 Like, it's completely consistent with the person we already know. 47 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:19.199 It's amazing how confident Moffatt is to hide it in plain sight as well. 48 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.560 You know, we're off hunting formality. 49 00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:36.540 And this time, things reverse from the season opener for series 6 where the doctor is trying to attract Rory and Amy's attention by doing ridiculous things through history. 50 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:43.079 And now they're trying to attract the doctor's attention by doing something big and showy that makes it into the paper. 51 00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:55.980 And so having them actually arrive in the middle of the crop circle and the doctor has already seen it, the moment that they finish, he gets out with a newspaper that is yellowed. 52 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:01.139 So it's a really old copy of tomorrow's newspaper. 53 00:05:01.139 --> 00:05:08.639 And we get to look at it before we notice the line across the crop circle, which we didn't see. 54 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.779 And that the 2nd that they noticed that. 55 00:05:12.899 --> 00:05:15.120 The 2nd that Rory notices it in the paper. 56 00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:18.959 We hear the sound of the car actually arriving to make it. 57 00:05:19.019 --> 00:05:28.439 And people kind of complain that Moffatt leans into time travel too heavily and, you know, has things happening in the wrong order and stuff like that. 58 00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:33.540 But when it's as enjoyable as this, how can you possibly complain? 59 00:05:33.899 --> 00:05:37.860 It is very cleverly done and the good open. 60 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:39.959 I want my show to be less interesting please. 61 00:05:40.019 --> 00:05:40.860 Too much fun. 62 00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:44.040 Yeah, less camp, sexy women. 63 00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:44.939 Less of that. 64 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:45.899 We don't need that in the wrong. 65 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.779 Why do people say that it leans into the time travel team? 66 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:51.060 I don't get that because it's part of the cleverness. 67 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:51.839 Yeah, I think so. 68 00:05:51.899 --> 00:06:00.779 I mean, I think, you know, for most of the show's history, the Tartars has just been the thing that gets you into the story. and... 69 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:01.319 Yeah, yeah. 70 00:06:01.379 --> 00:06:15.600 And sometimes in the 80s, the TARDIS actually starts to be a part of the thing and we'll get travels in the TARDIS inside stories, you know, which is actually a sort of a new thing once it starts happening in the show's history. 71 00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:30.660 And now you have Moffat, who, you know, we talked about in a Christmas carol, he uses the TARDIS to create a flashback so that the thing that's functionally a flashback in the story is actually happening in real time. 72 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:36.899 Moffatt's default mode for storytelling is telling things out of order. 73 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.139 He does it all the way through coupling, for instance. 74 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:43.620 And now he has the TARDIS, which lets him do it even more. 75 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:47.220 And I just think it works incredibly well. 76 00:06:47.579 --> 00:06:50.519 And speaking of his default mode of coupling. 77 00:06:50.579 --> 00:06:53.759 That's all over here because his other default mode is to be glib and silly as hell. 78 00:06:53.819 --> 00:06:54.480 Yeah, yeah. 79 00:06:54.540 --> 00:06:55.019 Yeah. 80 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:55.620 Yeah. 81 00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:00.779 So now he's got the cheapest way ever to just throw time travel in for a joke and he runs with it. 82 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:01.800 Yeah. 83 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:05.459 Like, is this is this the 1st time he's done a comedy episode? 84 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:21.720 Well, look, I think that probably there are episodes like Amy's choice last year that had incredibly funny dialogue all the way through and were written by a sitcom writer, like Simon Nye, but it's not in any sense a comedy episode. 85 00:07:21.779 --> 00:07:28.199 So I think this is probably as comedic as he's gone, but certainly even... the 1st full-blown one, yeah. 86 00:07:28.259 --> 00:07:31.980 But even last week, there was just hilarious dialogue all the way through. 87 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:34.439 And I actually find myself the Don. 88 00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:35.819 Yes. 89 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:52.620 Well, I actually find myself writing notes as I'm watching the episode, but then eventually with a Moffat episode, I'm just sort of copying and pasting whole kind of tracks of dialogue from the transcript into my notes so that I don't forget them because he is a sitcom writer. 90 00:07:52.680 --> 00:08:02.100 It's actually a great thing to have a sitcom writer in charge of the show when he's as clever and as sympathetic to Doctor Who, I think, as Stephen Moffatt is. 91 00:08:02.939 --> 00:08:05.759 Did you recognise what the car was? 92 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:07.019 is that? 93 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:09.060 It's a prince reference. 94 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.339 It's a little red Corvette. 95 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:17.399 That scene, that seems actually the last scene that was filmed for this series. 96 00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:23.399 It was filmed about 2 months after the rest of the series had wrapped because they needed to wait for the corn to get to the right height. 97 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:25.079 I thought it was. 98 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:26.519 Yeah, well that would make sense. 99 00:08:26.579 --> 00:08:33.480 I was imagining Teresa May running across it, you know, and constantly interrupting filming and perhaps that was the problem. 100 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:38.759 Oh, one more thing about the opener. 101 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:40.320 How great does Matt's new coat look? 102 00:08:40.379 --> 00:08:44.399 I feel like everyone forgets the green coat exists, but it looks wonderful. 103 00:08:44.460 --> 00:08:48.059 Yeah, you see, this is for me is when they start introducing that coat. 104 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:51.059 See, I like the neatness of the original outfit. 105 00:08:51.120 --> 00:09:00.840 I find, and we get this later when Clara joins, where he starts to become that Paul McGann-esque kind of Edwardian sort of outfit. 106 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:01.559 I hit the purple. 107 00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:03.539 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 108 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:05.580 I am such a fan. 109 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:07.740 I am such a fan of his original outfit. 110 00:09:07.860 --> 00:09:08.940 They did nail it, yeah. 111 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:09.659 I just feel it. 112 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:11.159 I feel it just goes downhill. 113 00:09:11.220 --> 00:09:13.679 Every alteration they make is a bad one for me. 114 00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:14.580 Fair. 115 00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:24.240 So, yeah, then we go into this sort of comedy flashback and it's got real kind of ab fab vibes. 116 00:09:24.299 --> 00:09:35.519 Do you remember the scene in series one of Abfab where Patsy and Eddie and a 3rd guy are being sort of hauled up before the before the principal? 117 00:09:35.580 --> 00:09:36.720 Yes, of course. 118 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:39.960 And, you know, they're young. 119 00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:47.580 Like, I think that the kids here, and we already have Caitlin Blackwood available to play Amy with her sort of new Amy hair, and so that's okay. 120 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.840 And now we have a new Rory and we have another Mel's. 121 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:54.059 And all of them, I think, are really good. 122 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:59.340 Like child actors are always a potential problem, but I'm not embarrassed by any of these. 123 00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:06.779 And then all of them sort of playing sort of slightly young versions of themselves as well, I think, is just terrifically great. 124 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.659 Not being middle-aged at that point helps. 125 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.019 It's just they're written really well as kids. 126 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:23.759 You don't always get great kid writing, but you get here where like, for example, Mel's and Amy talking about why Mel's is always in trouble and she's like, you're almost in trouble as much as the boys. 127 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:24.899 And she's like, what about you? 128 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:26.220 I count as a boy. 129 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.440 That's that's how kids talk. 130 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:29.039 It's great. 131 00:10:29.100 --> 00:10:39.419 I just love they they don't tell Rory that the hide and seek is over or like whatever, like that sort of horribly dismissive. 132 00:10:39.419 --> 00:10:49.019 I feel so sorry for the fact that she assumes that he's gay for their entire childhoods because he's motherly in love with her and following her around. 133 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:50.879 And not looking at any other girls. 134 00:10:50.940 --> 00:11:01.200 So a fun thing for that for me is it never says he never showed interest in any guys, just that the only woman he ever showed in Justin was Amy. there's room to play there. 135 00:11:03.539 --> 00:11:22.139 Do we think this is partly solving the rather unfortunate problem at the end of a good man goes to war where we realise that Amy and Rory miss out on the chance to raise their daughter, and that's sort of retrospectively solved by the, well, actually they grew up at the same time as their daughter. 136 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:23.340 So that's sort of okay. 137 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:26.279 I don't think it makes up for it, but do you think that's supposed to be saying that? 138 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:30.600 I don't think it's trying to make up for it, but it's trying to be a version of it, yeah. 139 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:44.100 Oh, I mean, Moffat has gone on record as saying that exactly why he wrote it that way, was to try and lessen the, you know, horror, the impact of what had happened at the end of the midseason finale. 140 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:49.379 The other thing I was going to ask about that was, do we feel that time has been rewritten? 141 00:11:49.500 --> 00:11:50.519 Do we feel that? 142 00:11:50.580 --> 00:11:53.220 You know, there's that reference to the fact that you weren't at the wedding? 143 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:54.299 Wait, you weren't at the wedding? 144 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:55.559 Where have you been all this time? 145 00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:57.240 And it's like, oh, I've always been here. 146 00:11:57.299 --> 00:11:59.460 I don't like weddings and so on like that. 147 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.700 I mean, it's an episode called Let's Kill Hitler. 148 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:07.679 I think it's pretty much outright, just flouncing into the room and saying, we're just changing everything. 149 00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:08.399 It's fun. 150 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:09.120 Roll with it. 151 00:12:09.179 --> 00:12:09.960 You're gonna have a good time. 152 00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:16.799 No, no, I don't mean, no, I don't mean changing everything from the point of view of, you know, the writers changing the history of the show. 153 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:23.700 I mean, from the point of view of, you know, rivers, abduction or melodies, abduction, in story, in story rewriting it, rewriting history. 154 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:25.679 I 100% believe that's how it is, yeah. 155 00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:26.460 Yep, yep. 156 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:33.419 See, I kind of would have loved it if Mel's had always been a minor character in the series the last year and a half . 157 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.679 And then it's revealed that actually she's their daughter as well. 158 00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:39.360 That would have been kind of good. 159 00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:41.639 That would have required too much forethought, right? 160 00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:44.220 Yeah, I think this is being sort of done on the fly in a way. 161 00:12:44.279 --> 00:13:01.139 I actually think that one of the things that Moffat does, and he very clearly does it to the doctor, but he also does it to Amy and Rory here by introducing a best friend that we've never heard of. is that he is separating the show from the lies of the characters. 162 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:11.340 So when we were watching Doctor Who, classic Doctor Who as children, we just assumed that the doctor was a person to whom all these things were happening in a sequence. 163 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:20.759 And that sort of continues into the RTD era where the doctor kind of seems to age a year every season, as if these were all things that were just happening to the doctor in order. 164 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:25.080 And Moffat is very keen to stop doing that. 165 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:34.919 And to say, no, what you're seeing are adventures with this character in it, what this show isn't seeking to portray is the life of this character. 166 00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:40.200 And so we get the jump of several 100 years at the beginning of the series. 167 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:48.480 We get him spending longer on the planet Christmas than he'd been adventuring for, like literally ever. 168 00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:51.659 You know, where he'd see the introduction of John Hurts doctor. 169 00:13:51.720 --> 00:14:01.440 And here, we have a new character who's been massively important to Rory and Amy, but just hasn't come up because they were busy being on adventures. 170 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:03.360 And I think that that's actually really cool. 171 00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:09.899 And none of us were complaining about Wilf not being at Donna's wedding. 172 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:11.879 So it has happened before. 173 00:14:12.059 --> 00:14:13.860 Oh, fair enough. 174 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.399 I just I just want to spin off, though, on the insertion. 175 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:24.059 They did these tie-in books around the time the series came out called The Brilliant Book, just for series 5 and six. 176 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:28.740 And one of the things they did with this, they just have like little short fiction segments tying into each story that aired. 177 00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:34.019 So for this one, you get to see Amy, Rory, and Mel's report cards from grade school. 178 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:36.179 The best thing. 179 00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:44.759 Do you think that, I mean, the reason he did that was so that Big Finish had plenty of space to slot whole box. 180 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:46.740 I'm sure that wasn't a considerable... 181 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.980 There was a very cute Doctor Who magazine comics sending off Amy and Rory about them as kids with Mel's. 182 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:55.379 That was a really nice thing to see. 183 00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:00.360 I think it's a really fun period to play in that this episode just throws in for 10 minutes and then moves on from. 184 00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:07.440 So it is obviously partly being done to make up for the loss of the baby. 185 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:10.980 And there are other things later in the season that we'll do that as well. 186 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:18.059 In fact, even the reveal at the end of a good man goes to war, that the baby is here standing in front of you. 187 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:19.139 She's river. 188 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:25.919 She's someone you like, who's smart and wonderful at turns out that your baby grows up to be a sort of fantastic woman. 189 00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:28.320 You know, that's some kind of reassurance. 190 00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:30.059 That means the baby's going to be okay. 191 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:37.200 But I do think that it doesn't actually successfully make up for it. 192 00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:45.779 And we've talked before about the way that Moffatt's companions end up going through really kind of terrible things. 193 00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:48.240 And I think this is one of them. 194 00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:57.840 I think that what happens to Amy, I think, is actually too big and kind of too awful for the show to actually properly accommodate, and so it actually just has to kind of sail past it in a way. 195 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:12.899 And so Amy will get to get her revenge on Madame Cavarian in the finale in what is a pretty satisfying way, and she does get this sort of fun comedy sequence with Mel's. 196 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:21.480 But there's no real sense in which the show is equipped to kind of deal with what happens to her. 197 00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:24.179 And I don't know whether that's a problem or not. 198 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:38.820 Look, to be fair, I wish it hadn't have gone there, I think they could have done it differently and I think it's not handled as well as it might have been, but it's not a deal breaker for me. 199 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:41.820 I didn't come away feeling that, oh, this is absolutely terrible. 200 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:42.840 I'm never watching the show again. 201 00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:50.039 You know, I mean, there are always things that you go, oh, you know, maybe not, but I ran with it once it happened and I was fine. 202 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:53.279 I'm much less fine with other aspects that happen than this. 203 00:16:54.840 --> 00:17:05.519 So for me and for other people I've talked to who really relate to Amy and this story, the fact that it's sort of bigger than the show can ever actually heal or resolve is the plus. 204 00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:08.160 Like, you don't just put a band-aid on trauma. 205 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:08.819 It doesn't go away. 206 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:09.960 It just sort of simmers. 207 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:13.200 And I think one of the best things about Amy Pond is a character. 208 00:17:13.259 --> 00:17:17.460 From the beginning, she's set up as a character who has baggage and walls it off. 209 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:24.599 So by function of her character, you can have it just simmer under and burst out in unrelated moments like it does. 210 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:30.059 And I think throughout the back half of this series and episodes like the girl who waited or the god complex is there. 211 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:34.799 And it's very explicitly there, and the Wedding of River Song, and Asylum of the Daleks later. 212 00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:39.900 For me, that's why it works, because it's part of her, it's not her whole life. 213 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:51.720 She never going to be redefined by it, but it's always part of her, and she's living on with it, and there are little things, little steps taken to try and make things better, but they don't fix it, and they never pretend it does. 214 00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:55.859 I think too, it's just a kind of function of Doctor Who. 215 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:05.160 Like the Doctor Who companion, he's going to be constantly put through all kinds of trauma that if it happened to a real person would be an absolute deal breaker. 216 00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:09.480 But the show just kind of has to let it go. 217 00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:19.859 Because if you're going to have fun adventures in peril, you're going to have characters put through things that ordinarily they wouldn't tolerate or that they would kind of collapse in the face of or something like that. 218 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:20.819 Yeah. 219 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.420 Yeah, and never do again. go home and say, I'm leaving this. 220 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:25.559 I understand this for a moment longer. 221 00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:27.000 I mean, why did Perry stay? 222 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:27.299 Why? 223 00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:37.500 Yeah, well, we asked the question, why did Sarah get in the TARDIS at the end of Terror of the Zygons after, you know, that terrible time she had in series 12? 224 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:38.940 Like it's unthinkable. 225 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:55.559 But Moffat leans into that in a big way in like series 7, B, 8, and 9. like where, you know, like we'll talk about that in in a USO's time, but he does lead into that and he does examine that in quite a big way with Clara. 226 00:18:55.740 --> 00:19:05.759 I mean, you know, he's never losing sight of the fact that these are not people, they are television characters, and he's writing interesting things to happen to them. 227 00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:20.339 And it's a little bit different from the RTD approach, but not light years away from the RTD approach, where RTD is trying to write characters who are a little bit kind of more like the characters that you see on soap operas. 228 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:35.339 But I mean, even if you if you look at a soap opera, any given character on a soap opera, would be kind of quivering in a corner in a state of learned helplessness after all of the sort of constant trauma and things that they have undergone as well. 229 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:38.220 You know, Well, maybe we should get that. 230 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:44.400 Yeah, I mean, having to run a pub and deal with ghosts from another universe. 231 00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:45.420 Yes, exactly. 232 00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:47.279 Peggy Mitchell. 233 00:19:57.299 --> 00:20:00.900 So, let's talk about Hitler. 234 00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:05.880 It's tasteless, but I love it. 235 00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:22.859 We learn quite early on that Mel's is obsessed with the doctor and she keeps getting in trouble in class for mentioning the doctor and she says that a key reason for Hitler's rise to power is that the doctor wasn't there to stop him. 236 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:27.180 And so that is something that she's been thinking of. 237 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:33.480 So the moment that she meets the doctor, she threatens him with a gun and says, let's go back and stop Hitler, right? 238 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:45.900 Now that's a super click baby title and it was absolutely foregrounded at the end of the previous episode and at the launch of the of this 2nd half of the series. 239 00:20:46.259 --> 00:20:50.579 Why why are we killing Hitler in this episode? 240 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.559 Why does she want to kill Hitler? 241 00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:57.420 Because it's the ultimate one of the ultimate time travel paradox things. 242 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:05.579 You know, if you're going to go back and change history in a meaningful way, the 1st thing that people say is, let's go back and kill Hitler, let's stop Hitler from doing all these terrible things. 243 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:14.279 I mean, you're not going to say, you're not going to say let's kill Stalin or let's kill Pol Pot, or let's kill any other number of evil dictators who, you know, cause death and destruction. 244 00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:18.779 Hitler is beyond the archetype of this. 245 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:20.819 And so it's like doing the Titanic episode. 246 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:22.319 Everyone's kind of waiting for it. 247 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:27.720 Well, in fact, she says that the Titanic sinks because the doctor wasn't there to save it as well in that sense. 248 00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:43.019 I mean, I think also there is a degree to which you can read it as Mel's trying to fish out what the doctor's boundaries are and what his morals are because she's been growing up being told one version of him trained to want to kill him, but she says out right up front. 249 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:47.519 She wanted to get to know him first. before she then murders him. 250 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.140 So I think it works there. 251 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:50.819 And I also think it works like we were talking about. 252 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:57.660 This episode is presumably rewriting things and leading with a title like that primes the audience did expect. 253 00:21:57.660 --> 00:22:06.420 That is going to kind of be about writing things. even if it does kind of, you know, shove the main one into a cupboard, which, thank God it does. 254 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:07.500 It's not equipped to deal with him. 255 00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:12.539 Yeah, and I think that this is the show absolutely acknowledging that. 256 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.539 I think this is the show saying, actually, we can't do Hitler. 257 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:18.779 Back in the days of the new adventures. 258 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:32.339 Paul Cornell said that he thought that the 7th doctor was the only person who had the kind of moral depth to kind of appear in a concentration camp or something like that, or to be put in a story with the Holocaust. 259 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:37.259 And I just think that that was an absolutely preposterous thing to say. 260 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:43.380 And like, with all due respect, ridiculously. 261 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.180 And I don't know whether he would agree with that now. 262 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:46.380 That was a very long time ago. 263 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:54.779 And we had a big, you know, we were super excited about the 7th doctor because he was, he did seem to be more kind of morally complex than his predecessors. 264 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.420 But the fact is that the show can't do it. 265 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.079 The show can't possibly handle it. 266 00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:14.039 And so when we go back to kill Hitler, what we end up doing is making some jokes, you know, getting Rory to punch him in the face, getting Rory to say the words shut up, Hitler, which is so great. 267 00:23:14.099 --> 00:23:15.059 And then... 268 00:23:15.059 --> 00:23:16.619 Literally punching a Nazi in the face. 269 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:17.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 270 00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:22.680 And and the put Hitler in the cupboard over there again is also really funny. 271 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.279 But what it's basically saying is we actually can't do this. 272 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:31.259 The story doesn't actually need to be set in Berlin in 1938 at all. 273 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:32.039 It could be anywhere. 274 00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:38.279 But I do think that it's making the point that we can't do Hitler. will just put him in the cupboard over there. 275 00:23:38.339 --> 00:23:49.619 The other plus to being set in that time is you get a whole bunch of innocent, supposedly innocent people, that river can totally terrorise without anyone feeling even the slightest bit bad about it. 276 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:56.400 I don't think you need to have Hitler there and put him in a cupboard just to demonstrate that we can't do Hitler. 277 00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:59.339 I think you demonstrate not doing Hitler by not doing Hitler. 278 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:08.640 It is kind of, would have been my preference because I think what we end up with is a situation where it trivialises, um, it all. 279 00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:19.680 And I know we're not venturing into the absolute darkest of the dark of the Nazi era, but I just think that it, and as you say, it doesn't need to be set there. 280 00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:20.700 It could be set anywhere. 281 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:27.299 There is nothing about Berlin in 1938, which is relevant in any way to the story. 282 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:29.819 It's just there basically for effect. 283 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:30.779 A fun effect. 284 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:31.380 Yes, absolutely. 285 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:39.180 But I think what we end up with is this kind of, It becomes too much like this light entertainment. 286 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.000 It's just all, it's it's a lower, low. 287 00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:45.480 It's, it's, as I was saying, it's springtime for Hitler, it's JoJo Rabbit. 288 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:49.920 It's something that's not really got any kind of gravity to it. 289 00:24:49.980 --> 00:25:08.160 And I get that you want Dr. to be entertaining, and I want Dr. to be entertaining, but I feel that the kind of entertaining that this episode does in this setting is, um, it's just very unfortunate, and it's just not the program that, that, that I think it should be. and can be. 290 00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:14.160 I think, though, what is interesting is that there is someone else who wants to kill Hitler. 291 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.859 And that is the Tess Elector. 292 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:36.720 And so what we have, right, is the show acknowledging that it can't deal with something like Hitler, that the reason that bad things happen in human history and the doctor doesn't stop them is because the doctor's not real, he's made up. 293 00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:40.559 And so he can't stop any of those things, right? 294 00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:44.519 But the test selector, which is also made up, thinks it can. 295 00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:47.039 And the test selector is the TARDIS. 296 00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:49.200 They have discovered time travel. 297 00:25:49.259 --> 00:25:52.019 They are smaller on the inside than the outside. 298 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.440 It has a chameleon circuit that allows it to change shape. 299 00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:59.160 It travels from place to place in order to punish bad guys. 300 00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:02.460 It literally does what the Tartars does. 301 00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:05.579 But it thinks it can handle Hitler. 302 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.579 I think one of the differences is it has a Star Trek bridge. 303 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:19.200 Having a Star Trek Bridge means it thinks it can take on serious topics without being equipped for it. not be the serious sci-fi drama, not moral parables. with a captain in a chair. 304 00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:27.900 And you get that fantastic line, you know, I'd ask you who you thought you were, but I think I think I already know. 305 00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:29.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's obvious. 306 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:30.960 Yeah, like that's fantastic. 307 00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:39.240 I can almost forgive the, I, we, we can't do let's kill Hitler because of the wonderful lines you get. 308 00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:41.339 Like, I've got a banging in my head. 309 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:43.859 I think that's Hitler in the cupboard. doesn't make it better. 310 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:53.039 Oh, unquestionably, there's great lines and it plays all of that beautifully and there are so many great funny things. 311 00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:56.339 I just don't think it's Doctor Who is my is my issues. 312 00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:57.180 It's a marvel. 313 00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:58.319 Marvel film is what it is. 314 00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:06.720 I do think there's one place where it really does fall flat on its face too, much as I adore the episode where they say, there's a worse war criminal than Hitler here. 315 00:27:06.779 --> 00:27:07.920 It's River song. 316 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:08.700 Yeah. 317 00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:12.299 That is a fundamentally misguided line to include. 318 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:13.740 The episode would have been fine without it. 319 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:15.660 Mistakes were made. 320 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:37.799 I think, I think, though, that is a very deliberate callback to the previous episode, kind of, it's a feint to make you think they're talking about the doctor because the Titus is arriving and you've just had this whole plot line where, you know, a baby has been turned to sick because you're trying to, you know, like you're trying to kill the doctor. 321 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:38.700 Not the fluid I would have said. 322 00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:41.099 And so like that whole thing, it was a setup. 323 00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:43.200 I mean, yeah, like the line is terrible. 324 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:52.740 I think that the test selector is actually really pretty fantastic in all sorts of ways. 325 00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:55.319 It's 1st appearance. 326 00:27:55.380 --> 00:28:04.200 So it's taking on the appearance of, you know, one of the officers who's then going to go into Hitler's office and kind of attack Hitler or whatever. 327 00:28:04.259 --> 00:28:11.880 And just the fact that it comes face to face with the officer and the 1st scary thing it does is just grow to be as tall as him. 328 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:17.339 You know, like it's nothing like super weird or spacey or anything like that. 329 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.180 It just does something physically weird and impossible. 330 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:22.799 That's incredibly unsettling. 331 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:24.839 And just Harriet. 332 00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:27.599 Like, I just think Harriet is absolutely fabulous. 333 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:34.079 Like, when she runs up to eyeball it out the window, she's the art department, she wants to get the skin colour, right? 334 00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:35.039 It's so good. 335 00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:36.359 It's so funny. 336 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:44.279 It's very funny Do you like the, um... the fact that the test selected can do everything apart from glasses. 337 00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:46.259 Well, that's the other thing. 338 00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.240 Your motorbike? 339 00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:53.339 Yes, we can do a motorbike with moving parts, but it can't do a pair of glasses. 340 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:56.400 No, because it actually says let's keep this simple. 341 00:28:56.460 --> 00:28:58.319 We won't do anything detachable. 342 00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:01.380 So they can detach things. 343 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:19.920 And the main reason, of course, that it takes the glasses off is that you kind of imagine that it's going to do what the T 1000 does in in Terminator 2 and kind of like poke his head in or something like that, but it just takes the glasses off him and puts them on. like in a way that is super menacing. 344 00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:36.119 Yeah, the effect of the tessellator changing shape is much more interesting than it might have been with all of the, it is like a whole of tiles, hence the names, as opposed to, as opposed to it being some goobly mess that sort of morphs into the new shape. 345 00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:37.740 It's a lovely effect. 346 00:29:37.859 --> 00:29:49.200 It also has one of my favourite parts of the story once you get inside of it and meet the antibodies, which I think are genuinely one of the least appreciated but most wonderful monsters in Doctor Who history. 347 00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:52.859 Every single moment with them fills me with deep joy. 348 00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:55.799 You will feel a tingling sensation and then death. 349 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.839 Please stand still whilst your existence has ended or something like that. 350 00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:17.519 I mean, I know it's a screwball comedy episode, but I mean, if we were if one were to be making it more seriously, you'd you wouldn't have them say any of that stuff, it'd be far more creepy and they'd just be sort of, you know, approaching silently. 351 00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:26.400 But to make it that, again, the fun Marvel universe, the antibody jellyfish things need to, you know, proclaim what they're about to do in this kind of weird way. 352 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:28.079 I mean, I think that's Doctor Who. 353 00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:30.180 Oh, I don't know whether it's always Doctor Who. 354 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.940 I think that that comes and goes, that sort of thing. 355 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.799 Depending on whether they're going for that. 356 00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:40.619 I think I think Doctor Who Monsters have always kind of walked a line between silly and scary where there's an element of camp. 357 00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:43.140 There's an element of playground catchphrases. 358 00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:50.579 They're, their, their score for kids, and there's always an element of, it's kind of silly, and that's kind of why we love it to it. 359 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:51.059 I think. 360 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.519 No, you see, I think the silliness. 361 00:30:53.579 --> 00:30:55.500 Do you think that that's deliberate in the new series? 362 00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:56.819 Yes, exactly, James. 363 00:30:56.940 --> 00:31:07.740 It's deliberately done in a new series because I think in the original series, it is all, well, in the main, trying to be more serious and it's silly when it's failing to do that. 364 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:16.799 And so the new series, the style of the new series, is it's run with that, um, by bringing the silliness in as a as a Nintendo aspect of it. 365 00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:21.359 And you're right, they've always had catchphrases, but not deliberately so. 366 00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:28.559 I mean, not, you know, the catchphrases have been, should we say, a little less subtle nowadays, they do a catchphrase because they want a catchphrase. 367 00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:30.240 It's just a different way of doing. 368 00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:32.279 Yeah, they're lampshading it. 369 00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:34.140 Like the new series lampshades. 370 00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:36.779 I'd say the classic series did too. 371 00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:40.680 I mean, you don't put Hartnell in the Dalek in the space museum because you want it to be taken seriously. 372 00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.160 Yeah, I actually think it's a function of when we were watching it. 373 00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:58.140 I actually think that the creators of the show were kind of aware that their monsters did kind of walk the line between funny and silly and that silly wasn't a failure mode. 374 00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:00.779 I think silly was often what they were kind of going for. 375 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.380 And I certainly think that Bob Holmes' approach is often that. 376 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:16.380 Like Bob Holmes is often kind of aiming for sort of camp nonsense and hitting it rather than aiming for serious terror and failing to hit it. 377 00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:19.740 Oh, I don't think it was aiming for serious terror. 378 00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:30.420 And you're right, there are a lot of moments, whether it's heartland, the Dalek in the Space Museum, or what, but it's just a different, and yeah, and I will accept that it is a function of when, when, when we're watching it. 379 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:40.440 But I still think, as James is saying, they lampshaded a little bit more in the new series compared to in the old twos. 380 00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:42.480 Yes, of course, there are moments of camp. 381 00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:44.460 Deliberate, deliberate stupidity, yeah. 382 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:45.420 Deliberate campness. 383 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:54.359 I think the show, the new series is based on the reception of the old series, more than it is on the actual old series itself. 384 00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:56.759 So how did we watch the old series? 385 00:32:56.819 --> 00:33:02.819 Let's replicate that rather than how what was the old series actually like and replicate that. 386 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:12.539 And I think that that's fine because, you know, the new series is written in full knowledge of the things that everyone remembers fondly about the old series. 387 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:18.839 Yeah, I mean, but that's why or remembers fondly about what they wish the old series might have had. 388 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:22.440 That's why you have Dalek versusylum in the end, you know, the 2nd season. 389 00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:24.779 You know, that is all about that. 390 00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:32.279 Well, that's why you have the Titanic and a kind of a Titanic popping up because that's everyone was waiting for that story in the 1st in the 1st original run. 391 00:33:47.339 --> 00:33:57.660 So, was anyone surprised, I'm talking about the first time round, um, 10 years ago, when Mel regenerates into Alex Kingston? 392 00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:00.720 Oh, yep. 393 00:34:00.779 --> 00:34:09.659 I mean, like I said, I expected it to be river from the start, but the recasting through me and I at that point stopped thinking about it as a possibility. 394 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:11.340 So when it hits, it's like, oh. 395 00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:13.440 I think that's the brilliance of it, isn't it? 396 00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:16.679 So we have already learned. 397 00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:22.139 We've already learned that melody is river, so we do know that. 398 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:30.480 We know the character is called Mel's, and it is the usual Moffat thing of hiding the solution to the mystery in plain sight. 399 00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:31.679 Who is Missy? 400 00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:32.460 Guess what? 401 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:33.780 She's the master. 402 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:34.920 Who else could it possibly be? 403 00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:38.820 And yet it does actually come as a surprise. 404 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.699 We know that the doctor's hunting for melody. 405 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:49.139 We know that river is melody, and yet when river actually turns up, we're surprised to see her. 406 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.780 And I think that that's actually pretty good. 407 00:34:51.840 --> 00:35:06.480 I have to say, though, that clearly we're characterising river quite differently, the river that we know is older, and in silence in the library, she's as old as she's ever going to get. 408 00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:09.420 And so this is young river. 409 00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:11.039 And so she is very different. 410 00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:17.099 And I don't quite know how to feel about how girly she is. 411 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:33.480 So there's that line when Mel's is regenerating where she says, shut up, dad. focussing on a dress size and then and then you get River kind of running out of the room to check something and it's clearly her arse. 412 00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:38.699 Like, she clearly checks her butt and then comes back... 413 00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:46.500 I honestly think it's the best post-regeneration scene for that reason. entirely Jodie had done it. 414 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:50.460 If Ali Jo did look down and said, wow, there's a lot going on down there. 415 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.400 Matt Smith, if Matt Smith had looked down and said that, that would have been a lot of fun too. 416 00:35:56.519 --> 00:36:00.719 No, he's a bit skinny, so it would be more, there's not a lot going on down there. 417 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:16.139 So yeah, it does sort of play into sort of Moffatt's stereotype gender essentialism thing that he is always kind of being hit for and is certainly a massive feature of coupling. 418 00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:34.260 Um, but it's hard not to enjoy it for just being incredibly fun, even though it's, it trivialised as a, I guess we know that that's not all that there is to river and it is just a sort of post-regeneration excitement with a new body, I think. 419 00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:42.599 I think it also helps that Alex Kingston sort of plays the character in this episode is just like a sort of naughty, rebellious teen the whole time. 420 00:36:42.659 --> 00:36:44.460 It's a totally different performance. 421 00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:49.980 I've never really picked up on just how different it is before, but she's having a lot of fun playing a snotty kid. 422 00:36:50.099 --> 00:36:55.559 But she's just, she's just regenerated from basically being a snot 18. 423 00:36:55.860 --> 00:36:59.039 So, like, that is a natural progression. 424 00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:01.980 But also the character of River Song. 425 00:37:02.219 --> 00:37:04.500 He's very fashion conscious. 426 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:16.199 She's always looking spectacular in whatever she wears, whether she's, you know, sabotaging an alien spaceship in high heels or whether whatever it is she's doing, even when she's in a uniform, she looks fantastic. 427 00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:22.800 Regenerating is like putting on another set of clothes for a time lord, surely. 428 00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:25.199 So, and a surprising set of clothes. 429 00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:26.940 A set of clothes that you don't know what they're going to be like. 430 00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:28.800 And it's like, 0 my god, this is so fantastic. 431 00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:30.059 I've got this and that, I've got that. 432 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:35.820 And the comedy with the doctor is always like discovering, oh my god, the chin's huge or the nose is huge. 433 00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:37.019 Oh my god, what's this? 434 00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:40.619 There's always the joke about looking in the mirror going, 0 my god, what's that? 435 00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:51.179 Whereas it's great that with the females who regenerate, whether it's Ramada or River song, they're always looking at how fabulous they are, because let's face it, they are. 436 00:37:52.619 --> 00:37:55.920 Well, except that bit where Romana's a fish person. 437 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:08.820 It is that thing about the, you know, the female timelords, see, well, that the time or 2 are predominantly female, seem to have much more control over the regeneration and the male ones do. 438 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:18.119 For the men, it's all a chaotic nightmare and they're traumatised afterwards, whereas both Romana and River song, go through these generations and are totally invigorated by the process. 439 00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:20.820 I think the doctors just crap at it. 440 00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.340 I know a lot of trans women who really love that. 441 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:24.960 Great. 442 00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:28.019 And and then we get the shopping, like going shopping. 443 00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:30.780 And that, like, you actually think you're in Berlin. 444 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.059 You know, it's one of the world centres of fashion. 445 00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:52.679 She's literally going to go to the shops, but instead there she is in the Temple of Peace in Cardiff, like with machine guns, you know, threatening all these horrible, horrible sort of Nazi people, that thing where Rory and Amy sort of turn up on a motorcycle going, where on earth do we find river? 446 00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:58.320 And then all of these people run out of a restaurant in their underwear and oh, there she is. 447 00:38:58.380 --> 00:38:59.400 It's so good. 448 00:38:59.460 --> 00:39:03.059 I mean it is just so terrifically funny. is very funny. 449 00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:09.000 Speaking of so terrifically funny, how we get there is incredible with the very Sherlocky. 450 00:39:09.059 --> 00:39:15.119 I switched the weapon and back and forth clever montage because it's just so knowingly ridiculous. 451 00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:20.159 You get that amazing shot of Alex Kingston looking royally ticked off holding a banana. 452 00:39:20.219 --> 00:39:20.940 It's wonderful. 453 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:35.579 It's the 2nd time, of course, too, that the doctor has substituted a banana for a gun in Moffat story because Christopher Eckleston does it to Captain Jack way, way, way back in series one. 454 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:36.719 He probably forgot he did it. 455 00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:37.260 Let's be real. 456 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.659 No, it's Moffat. 457 00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.000 He's going back to his tried and true tropes. 458 00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:43.079 It's his thing. 459 00:39:43.139 --> 00:39:53.519 And of course, we have missed out in getting to this point, we have missed out one of the perhaps funniest lines is when River comes out with being about going to a gay gypsy ber mitzvah. 460 00:39:53.579 --> 00:39:54.360 For the disabled. 461 00:39:54.420 --> 00:39:57.000 It's just beautiful. confident same. 462 00:39:57.059 --> 00:39:58.019 I didn't give up. 463 00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:10.440 I mentioned last week that one of my history teacher colleagues had a screen cap of that on the wall of her classroom, not a particular Doctor Who fan, but absolutely adored that line. 464 00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:14.760 And it's even the, oh, the Fuhrer is a bit rubbish, or what is it? 465 00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:17.159 The 3rd rider's rubbish. a bit rubbish. 466 00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:18.179 I think or kill the Furrer. 467 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:18.840 Who's with me? 468 00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:20.579 So good. 469 00:40:21.420 --> 00:40:27.719 It's one of those lines that transcends the show it came from and just goes viral on the strength of itself. 470 00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:31.980 I definitely saw that line all over the place after the episode aired. that good. 471 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:40.199 There's that whole bit before that where he references the graduate as well. 472 00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:43.500 Oh, yeah, the moment she's that she's older. 473 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:44.579 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 474 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:45.719 She lifts her leg. 475 00:40:46.139 --> 00:40:48.960 You know, like Mrs. Robinson. 476 00:40:49.019 --> 00:40:49.679 It's absolutely. 477 00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:56.039 But somehow he's forgotten the graduate from the series opener because clearly he knows the plot there. 478 00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.559 He's forgotten in about 7 episodes. 479 00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:26.400 So, one of the most wonderful and impactful scenes to me in this episode is the scene where the doctors and the TARDIS speaking to the voice interface, and it comes out after, you know, some shockingly wonderful callbacks to the last couple companions, little Amy. 480 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:33.300 And it's just so dry but so touching with the, uh, I mean, for, for a start, it's just funny. 481 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:40.380 You'll be dead in 32 minutes, just keeps escalating perfectly, but it never really loses track of the emotion in the scene and it really gets me. 482 00:41:40.679 --> 00:42:07.500 I have to be uncharacteristically, uh, curmudgeonly about this, but I actually find that whole end a little bit overwrought, and it's, and it's the 1st time I think that I'm not totally sold on Matt's performance choices, or whether it's that I just don't want to watch sort of prolonged scenes of him crying out in pain or something like that. 483 00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:20.940 Like, I just, I just find that that's the bit where I kind of, that's the bit where I kind of check out a little bit and I'm no longer kind of fully on board with the episode. 484 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:34.199 And I don't know if it's the script or exactly what's happening there, but it's, it's, you know, Doctor Who always kind of changes tone. you know what I mean? 485 00:42:34.260 --> 00:42:39.780 Like it pivots from comedy to tragedy and all sorts of things all the time and that's one of the things that we really like about it. 486 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.639 But for me, I don't think that those that final scene quite lands. 487 00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:46.980 Do you think it just goes on too long? 488 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:47.940 Maybe. 489 00:42:47.940 --> 00:42:48.840 In terms of all the... 490 00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:49.800 Yeah, agony and pain part. 491 00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:52.139 Maybe, I mean, there's funny things about it. 492 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:54.840 You know, like there are properly funny things about it. 493 00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:57.539 And I do like the interaction with the test selector and stuff. 494 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:07.920 But I just think, you know, the, it just, it all gets a little bit weepy over a death that we know isn't real and I, I don't know. 495 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:13.380 But I suppose it needs to build to the bit where Rivers giving her regenerations to the doctor. 496 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:14.880 So... 497 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.699 I mean, for me, it's rushed anyway, that sequence. 498 00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:23.340 And so maybe they're just trying to create enough of enough of a rationale for that. 499 00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:23.880 You're right. 500 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:30.659 I don't think it's particularly good, but um, Uh, I suppose they're trying to build. 501 00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:41.760 I really like how it ties into the overall idea in the episode of changing history and interfering with things because the whole plot arc of the series is we saw the doctor die. 502 00:43:41.820 --> 00:43:43.199 We know when it's going to happen. 503 00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:44.760 We're wondering how to get out of it. 504 00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:47.219 And then it just decides to throw a wrench in it and kill them early. 505 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:50.039 And to see how the characters react to that. 506 00:43:50.099 --> 00:44:00.900 I think it's really satisfying in that way because you know, you know, in both cases, the doctor's going to get out of it, but by throwing an extra one in, it sort of gives you a chance to explore a different reaction from everybody. 507 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:07.800 I think it really is meaningful for River as a character to see that happen early, given that's the true trajectory, we know she's always been on. 508 00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:11.820 And I think it works for how the characters bounce off of it. 509 00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:39.300 I think it's a good antidote to what happened last episode because last episode we kind of come to the conclusion that the doctor is actually a bad man, a good man who goes to war is Rory, and the doctor is a terrifying force who has, by his behaviour, caused this problem to occur, that people are stealing his friend's baby to use against him as a weapon because they're terrified of him. 510 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:45.000 And here, the question is asked, is the doctor a good man or not? 511 00:44:45.059 --> 00:44:48.059 Is the doctor worth saving? 512 00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:55.739 and a river is the one who answers yes and is kind of prepared to do that at a particular cost. 513 00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:07.440 So, you know, the fact that that she kills him and then he rescues her from the test selector and just allows himself to die. 514 00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:11.099 I think that that actually works. 515 00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:16.199 I think there's just something about the tone of it that I don't like. 516 00:45:16.980 --> 00:45:27.420 I mean, I'm not a fan of the whole, uh, trying to paint the doctor as some ultimate evil in the universe or at least evil. 517 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:32.760 I mean, yes, it's all great to say, you know, your evil is my good kind of thing. 518 00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:47.820 Um, that aspect of it always works, but but I just think that the series started to go down this, um, unfortunate path where we start to question whether the doctor is actually a good man, you know, he is self evidently a very good man. 519 00:45:47.880 --> 00:46:05.699 Now we can question and wonder about some of the things that he's done and some of the consequences of his actions and their unfortunate outcomes that may spring from that, but I think that it crosses a line into sort of suggesting that his motivations are impure. 520 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:08.460 Don't you think it does that or not? 521 00:46:08.699 --> 00:46:10.980 I personally don't. 522 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:19.139 To me, I feel like the idea of the criticism of him in a good man goes to war and other series within Moffatt and outside. 523 00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:27.059 Davies was doing a lot of the same thing was, I feel like it's more questioning the idea of mythologising the doctor than it is questioning the doctor as a character themselves. 524 00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.239 Like the doctor is clearly the protagonist. 525 00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:33.059 They're clearly fundamentally good, even if they make mistakes. 526 00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:37.380 But also, this is a TV show with flaws. 527 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.139 And we see some of those flaws in some of the episodes. 528 00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:41.760 We see the doctor abandoning people. 529 00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:43.260 We see a lot of that. 530 00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:48.000 And the instinct of the new series is to respond to those gaps and say, well, what do we make of those? 531 00:46:48.059 --> 00:46:48.719 Yeah. 532 00:46:48.780 --> 00:47:06.539 Yeah, and this is a man that like he, he's a good man, he's trying to do good in the universe, but quite often he has to take actions which are, terrible to achieve that, you know, wiping out alien races. 533 00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:14.039 Like changing people's lives to suit his ends. to save other people. 534 00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:20.820 Like, they, like, he, he is making these choices, which are, you know, are morally questionable. 535 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:23.400 For what he thinks for the right reasons. 536 00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:31.500 So I think I don't think that's an overreach, like the questioning that they keep coming back to in this era, am I a good man? 537 00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:33.539 I think that's a good character beat. 538 00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:37.619 It's saying, you know, he actually does have some interiority. 539 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:59.519 Yeah, that these, I think that, I think that Kevin nails it, these things that happen that just because it's a sort of adventure genre program, where we defeat villains at the end and where the, you know, companions leave when their contract runs out, what happens if all of that's happening in a real world to a real character, what does that make that character? 540 00:47:59.579 --> 00:48:03.960 There is a problem in that, and we say this in our last episode. 541 00:48:04.019 --> 00:48:10.199 The doctor can't really learn from that because he's still going to be in a genre program of that kind. 542 00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:15.539 So we're not going to see some great reformation where he decides to not do that anymore. 543 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:18.480 But it does make it interesting. 544 00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:27.239 And I do think it's telling that in a few seasons time when the show really kind of abandons that idea, I do think it suffers as a result. 545 00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:54.480 One of the other things that kind of disappoints me a bit about this episode is, I feel like it rushes through what could have been a really interesting story of Mel's becoming river and the woman who attempts to kill the doctor or does kill a doctor. 546 00:48:54.539 --> 00:48:59.820 I think that it all happens so fast, and it's a wasted opportunity there. 547 00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:10.139 I think it would have been much more interesting for those events to happen, but to have been split across, say, just say 3 episodes. you know half a season apart from each other. 548 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:18.900 Now, maybe that stretches the river song thing out too much and it would have been too self-indulgent, but I just feel it's too quick. 549 00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:19.860 I agree. 550 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:21.659 I mean, I love this series. 551 00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:24.659 I'm on the record saying it's my favourite as I did at the top of this. 552 00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:27.059 I do think we could have used more of Mel's. 553 00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.380 We could have used more of that. 554 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:32.579 And I'm still disappointed we never got a story of River and Mel's interacting together. 555 00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:33.900 We can do 2 doctors. 556 00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:34.920 Why not 2 rivers? 557 00:49:34.980 --> 00:49:39.000 I mean, Big Finish kind of did it, but they wiggled out of it. 558 00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:39.659 It was good though. 559 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:42.900 There's so many opportunities there. 560 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:46.679 This episode sets up more good ideas than it has time to spend with. 561 00:49:46.739 --> 00:49:55.019 And that's a bit of a shame, but I prefer Doctor Who with having too many ideas to give full focus to all of them than to not having the ideas in the 1st place. 562 00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:57.900 Oh, it's being dull is the ultimate crime. 563 00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:24.840 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. 564 00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:33.059 You'll be back next week for a very middle class excursion to one of England's most scenic housing estates in night terrors. 565 00:50:33.059 --> 00:50:53.460 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody InterTara, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek Project. 566 00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:56.760 Kevin, where can people find you? 567 00:50:56.820 --> 00:51:02.340 Well, I am still tweeting embarrassing tweets away at Scribble Script on Twitter. 568 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:06.239 I am so sorry for any of you who follow me already, but please follow me if you don't. 569 00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:15.360 And at some point, I will be announcing the, uh, well, I'll be sharing the link to buy the faction paradox book, which I'm writing a short story for. 570 00:51:15.420 --> 00:51:17.099 I just sent off the 2nd draft this week. 571 00:51:17.219 --> 00:51:21.000 And so hopefully progress will happen on that soon. 572 00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:23.579 I do not know the mines behind it. 573 00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:25.559 I just know I'm feeling kind of proud of what I did. 574 00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:32.760 Until next time, remember that it is normal to experience fear during your incineration. 575 00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:37.019 Please remain calm and thank you very much for listening and good night. 576 00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:38.340 Good death. 577 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:39.539 See you soon. 578 00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:40.380 Good night. 579 00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:49.860 That was Flight 3 entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Kevin Bernard, Simon Moore and James Selwood. 580 00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:51.900 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lann. 581 00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:58.559 This episode, Tried and True Tropes, was recorded on the 22nd of August 2021 and released on the 7th of November. 582 00:51:59.940 --> 00:52:13.920 As you heard me suggest me a seconds ago, we have just released a new commentary podcast called Untitled Star Trek Project, in which friend of the podcast Joe Ford and I watch and discuss a randomly chosen episode from any Star Trek series. 583 00:52:14.039 --> 00:52:20.400 You can find it at Untitled Star Trek Project.com or wherever good podcasts can be found. 584 00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:22.920 I think that's the out. 585 00:52:26.099 --> 00:52:26.460 Yeah. 586 00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:27.780 No, I think that's the app. 587 00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:28.380 What do you reckon? 588 00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:30.659 Yes, yes, that is the out. 589 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:37.440 Like, you know, it seemed the very end with the professor at Lunar University. 590 00:52:37.500 --> 00:52:41.820 That's actually a reference to a short story he wrote for Declog 3. 591 00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:44.820 The mid 90s. 592 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:47.280 I love that fact. 593 00:52:47.940 --> 00:52:50.460 Mm, Professor Candy. 594 00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:51.360 Yes. 595 00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:54.900 Actually, the character, the character was also in Paul Cornell's. 596 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:57.300 Oh no, it isn't the 1st Bernie Summerfield, the whole. 597 00:52:57.360 --> 00:52:58.139 I think is the 1st one. 598 00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:04.079 And that character spends the entire story as a panto drag queen, which is, I think, a very important fact. 599 00:53:04.980 --> 00:53:13.500 It said like the 1st episode with Chris in the new adventures, the 1st book where he's like been body grafted into a big giant teddy bear. 600 00:53:13.980 --> 00:53:23.940 This is the 2nd this is the 2nd this is the 2nd episode in a row where Moffat's plundered his ideas from his from his childhood. 601 00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:34.139 And to this day, isn't Professor Candy the only character to graduate from the tie-in books and comics and stuff to the TV show? 602 00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:39.059 Well, Nathan didn't make it across. from Human Nature in the TV show. 603 00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:44.400 I was so I was so integral to the book of human nature. 604 00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:45.480 You're never speaking of people. 605 00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:49.260 That I didn't make it into the actual thing, ever. 606 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:52.079 Okay. 607 00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:52.980 All right. 608 00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:58.440 Well, we'll do an outro and Kevin, I'll do the, where can people find you and you can plug something? 609 00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:00.539 All right. 610 00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:01.380 Whatever you like. 611 00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:02.400 Okay, here goes. 612 00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:05.219 Is it night terrors next? 613 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:06.300 I think it's Night Terrace next. 614 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:06.960 Yes it is. 615 00:54:07.019 --> 00:54:08.880 Yes, I am so sorry for you. 616 00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:10.739 I'm so glad I don't have to do it. 617 00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:17.099 Wealthy listener, that's all we have time for this week.