WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:10:23 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:44.399 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast now with realistic human genitalia. 2 00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:46.200 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:46.259 --> 00:00:47.280 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:47.340 --> 00:00:48.539 I'm Peter. 5 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:49.920 I'm Corey. 6 00:00:49.979 --> 00:00:58.140 Well, we've been trapped in this rift for nearly a month now, and the crew of the USS Britain have made no effort at all to lighten our mood. 7 00:00:58.259 --> 00:01:00.960 As we descend into chaos and madness. 8 00:01:01.020 --> 00:01:07.140 It looks like only Councillor Troy's one moon circling can save us from our night terrors. 9 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.540 Looked like a full moon to me. 10 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:40.079 So, Corey, we haven't spoken on the podcast before, and I was kind of hoping that you might give us a bit of an idea of how you've been finding series 6. 11 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:50.040 Well, as some members of this podcast are fully where I am a huge fan of Matt Smith, probably inappropriately so. 12 00:01:50.099 --> 00:01:53.579 And I love series 5 and I revisit it often. 13 00:01:53.700 --> 00:01:58.500 I haven't seen series 6 for, I think about 5 years. 14 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:00.359 It's been that long since I've seen it. 15 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:05.700 So sitting down and revisiting this series in preparation for this podcast. 16 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:09.000 I was pretty underwhelmed, I have to say. 17 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:10.860 I mean, I can see the ambition. 18 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:16.919 But it feels to me like it falls short of the mark with most of the episodes. 19 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:23.639 There are a few obvious exceptions, which you've obviously discussed so far in the podcast and there are some to come. 20 00:02:23.699 --> 00:02:28.020 But overall, it feels like it just falls short of the mark with at every step. 21 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:34.199 And so it's it's disappointing and some of it's actually controversially a bit boring. 22 00:02:34.259 --> 00:02:38.280 So it'll be interesting to see where this conversation goes today. 23 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.060 There is no inappropriate love of Matt Smith. 24 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:44.639 There's only an inappropriate love of like William Harnell, you know. 25 00:02:46.139 --> 00:02:48.120 We'll talk about that later. 26 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:52.680 Jolly good smack bottom, Corey. 27 00:02:55.139 --> 00:03:01.979 So we are back in a council estate for the very 1st time for a while. 28 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:06.419 And I think, hmm, it feels different this time. 29 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:22.259 It's been commented on the council estate under Russell, was a place of kind of warmth and home and community, but under Stephen and Mark Gaitis, It sort of a bit cold and grim and other place, no one smiles and people are sort of perpetually suspicious. 30 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:25.020 I mean, I do think that Stevens version is probably a little closer to reality. 31 00:03:25.860 --> 00:03:29.400 I think what you say about other is right, actually. 32 00:03:29.460 --> 00:03:45.840 And and, uh, I mean, I don't know if we want to get into the weeds too early, but there's a sense that with the RTD era, there was a real, um, empathy and an understanding and, um, almost a love for that world. 33 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:57.419 But here it feels, I have some real problems with this episode because it feels to me like there's some issues around class and how the story engages with working class people. 34 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.500 I love Matt Smith, but his doctor is quite posh. 35 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:07.020 He's a private schoolboy, and he seems to swoop in and fix the working class people and then take off again. 36 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.659 And that's problematic, I think. 37 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:12.840 I think it's particularly apparent. 38 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:20.279 Firstly, that, uh, Amy and Rory at least seem quite disappointed to have turned up here. 39 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:25.740 You know, they're hoping for sort of history and planets and things, and instead we're in this sort of council estate. 40 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:26.939 And all of them. 41 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:28.079 It's not just mad. 42 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:36.540 It is all of them who kind of approach the residents of the estate as kind of middle class saviours. 43 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:41.699 They sort of turn up as if they're sort of social workers and they're interrogating them about their sort of personal lives. 44 00:04:41.699 --> 00:04:45.120 And they all get the door slammed in their face one after the other. 45 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:47.699 This is a place that they don't belong. 46 00:04:47.819 --> 00:04:52.139 And so in RTD's era, the council estate was home. 47 00:04:52.199 --> 00:05:03.420 And, you know, there's a sense in which they were sort of slightly comedy working class characters, but they were our regulars and we sort of grew to love them and to kind of understand them. 48 00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:13.920 And even when the companion went middle class in series 3, that the blow was softened by the fact that the family was black. 49 00:05:14.459 --> 00:05:22.560 And in series four, Donna, you know, is she is middle class, but they're not super well off or anything like that. 50 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:38.100 And so Russell was very keen to ensure that Doctor Who wasn't just the middle class concern it had been during the classic series, but now we're back there, I think. 51 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:40.379 And that is an alien world. 52 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:44.639 It does kind of mirror the experience of fans as well. 53 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.300 Long-term fans when the show came back, they were like, what are we doing on this council estate? 54 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:50.160 We want pseudo-historicals, damn it. 55 00:05:52.259 --> 00:06:12.720 Yeah, we want reporters for Metropolitan magazine and air hostesses and computer programmers, you know, vaguely sort of idealistic jobs, you know, we don't want someone who just works in a shop was kind of the thing. you know, I remember people going on about, oh, well, what, you know, what's special about Rose? 56 00:06:12.779 --> 00:06:13.439 She works in a shop. 57 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:18.240 You know, she's not a teenage demolitions expert or a computer programmer from Peace Pottage sort of thing. 58 00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:20.519 So yeah, there was a sort of snobbery. 59 00:06:20.579 --> 00:06:22.860 I think, yeah, going on. 60 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:32.040 And it shows how middle-class our characters are when Rory kind of comes out of the Tatus and sort of sniffs a bit and proclaims it to be a place they could get the bus to. 61 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:35.339 And later in the episode, he calls it EastEnders land. 62 00:06:35.459 --> 00:06:41.519 Yeah, which is a weird comparison because EastEnders is old EastEnders. high rise council estates. 63 00:06:41.579 --> 00:06:44.579 It's just very expensive old terraces with about 10 bedrooms. 64 00:06:44.819 --> 00:06:58.620 I think, though, that that's a sort of fanish reaction as well to the early RTD era was, you know, because he's using a lot of the sort of tropes and sort of character beats that you find in a soap opera. 65 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:04.860 People were comparing it to EastEnders as a sort of form of criticism. 66 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:11.759 Doctor Who is now set in EastEndersland rather than in sort of a fake secret military organisation or something. 67 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.459 Like a lesser drama. 68 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:16.500 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 69 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:18.959 And so I think I think there's that. 70 00:07:19.019 --> 00:07:41.040 I think, I think also, though, one of the reasons why the council estate seems so forbidding is that we sort of have a bit of a case of German expressionism, I think, in some senses, it's made to look as scary as possible because we're seeing it through George's eyes. 71 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:47.519 And remember that the moment the problem is solved, the council estate looks quite different. 72 00:07:47.579 --> 00:07:49.139 You know, it's sunny. 73 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.620 It's much less forbidding and frightening. 74 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:58.259 Yeah, see, I think another big part of it is we've got Mark Gatis writing. 75 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:07.740 And if you look at something like League of Gentlemen, Mark Gaters often takes his settings and turns them into something grotesque. 76 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:15.839 English villages are not like, say, Midsomer Murders, but they're also not like the League of Gentlemen, the truth-wise somewhere in between. 77 00:08:15.899 --> 00:08:24.180 So Mark Gate has given a housing estate like this, he's going to amplify the negative perceptions of it. 78 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:35.940 And in a way that is a little bit different to doing that to an English village because, you know, part of the appeal of something like Midsomer Murders is seeing posh people get killed by forklifts in a jam factory. 79 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.059 But I hope that's a real example, Brendan. 80 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.559 That is real example. 81 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:42.779 That is a real example actually. 82 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:48.480 I can't remember if that was real Barnaby or fake Barnaby, but anyway, um... 83 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:51.059 But here, yeah, it's... 84 00:08:51.059 --> 00:08:56.700 It's a little bit punching down. which is which is a bit uncomfortable. 85 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:05.340 But that being said, you do have Alex and Claire, who are lovely sympathetic characters. 86 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:09.600 And even Elsie, the little old lady. 87 00:09:09.659 --> 00:09:10.139 I love her. 88 00:09:10.379 --> 00:09:15.240 Because no one else looks after the estate and I've got to go up and down with me bad knees. 89 00:09:15.299 --> 00:09:16.860 I'm getting them replaced soon. 90 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:28.379 You know, I actually really, really think that the portrayal of Elsie is incredibly mean-spirited and I dislike it enormously. 91 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.679 She's not a very she's not a particularly likeable character at all, actually. 92 00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:35.039 No, she's the most unloveable long hag we've had since Dodo. 93 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.059 It's not that though. 94 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.639 She's such a tedious stereotype. 95 00:09:41.700 --> 00:09:52.679 You know, it's such a sort of trite observation that old people go on about their knees and their hips and their tablets and stuff like that and that they don't, you know, like I do it myself. 96 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:55.980 They're suspicious of young people and all of that sort of thing. 97 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:00.779 So she is just a sort of very tired collection of stereotypical tropes. 98 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:11.100 And I actually think that like pulling her into those garbage bags, there's just something kind of a bit nasty and mean-spirited, punching down again, I think, is the problem here. 99 00:10:11.220 --> 00:10:15.120 That journey into the garbage bags didn't do her rips any good, did it? 100 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:25.620 I actually think the supporting characters are pretty thinly drawn. 101 00:10:25.740 --> 00:10:28.259 Purcell is another example of that. 102 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:32.759 In fact, you could take Purcell out of the story and you wouldn't miss him at all. 103 00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:35.879 I couldn't quite see why he was there, to be honest. 104 00:10:35.940 --> 00:10:44.639 Other than for us to see the consequences of George's, um, you know, what George does to the manifestations of his anxiety. 105 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:53.279 I mean, sure we see that, and yes, he's turned into a doll towards the end of the episode, but I couldn't really see what the point of him was, to be honest. 106 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:58.799 So both actors, I think, are working with very thin material, I think, for both of those characters. 107 00:10:59.100 --> 00:11:09.419 I think there's a whole juxtaposition going on in this episode between the modern council estate and the Victorian world, and so you get it, obviously, between the estate and the dollhouse. 108 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:18.720 But then the estate is filled with grotesque characters, like Mrs. Rossiter and Purcell, because it's not how the real world works. 109 00:11:18.779 --> 00:11:28.500 So in the real world, council estates don't have a landlord, who's kind of there, you pay the rent to the council, or you bought your flats off the government in the 80s under Thatcher. 110 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:32.879 There's not a menacing man with a dog who owns the half place and turns up demanding his rent. 111 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:34.440 But I quite like that. 112 00:11:34.500 --> 00:11:39.600 I like that odd sort of middle class idea of what a counsellor state is. 113 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:50.460 I think he does manage to be properly scary in that scene where he sort of comes in and threatens Alex and he does do that mixture of genial and threatening. 114 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:58.139 And I adore the scene where he gets sucked into the carpet and the dog just completely fails to react. 115 00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:59.100 The dog doesn't care. 116 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:03.120 Do you see a horrible image of your future there, Nathan? 117 00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:10.679 And we have the wonderful Doctor Who tradition of, you know, oh, I've got this big dog. 118 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:17.519 And anytime he cuts the dog, it is the most placid, adorable thing on earth with a browl being dubbed over the top, like in canine company. 119 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:20.940 On the topic of Purcell. 120 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:39.539 I agree with you, Corey, that he's just sort of there to provide a bit of fake drama, which adds texture to the family, but there's no sort of payoff and like, you know, he's hugging the dog at the end, but there's no implication that, you know, it's Christmas morning and Scrooge is going to be nicer to Bob Cratchit kind of thing. 121 00:12:39.600 --> 00:13:03.419 And reading up on the development of the script, Mark Gaters has actually said that Purcell is based and named after his high school PE teacher whom Mark hated and had been waiting 25 years to find an appropriate character in a script to base him on and then have him melt into the floor and turned into a doll. 122 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:06.059 So I think that's just a good writer's catharsis there. 123 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.879 In that case, he can stay as far as I'm concerned. 124 00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:12.000 I'm glad he was there for good story reasons. 125 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:21.240 I mean, while we're talking about acting, how do we feel that the little kid does here? 126 00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:39.720 Because, you know, we have had a few children, I think, in the Moffat era, and the last time I think we had anyone sort of really significant, we thought he was really pretty great, the boy in Curse of the Black Spot, who played Toby, who sort of managed to hold his own against Hugh Bonneville. 127 00:13:39.779 --> 00:13:44.820 How do we feel that the child actor portraying George does here? 128 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:47.159 He blinks really well. 129 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:59.700 It's sort of a weird thing of, you know, his characterisation is quite wooden because, yeah, he doesn't quite fit and he doesn't quite belong. 130 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:06.659 And the problem with giving that role to a child is you're left wondering if they're really, really good at playing wooden. 131 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.940 Or if they're just wouldn't. 132 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.799 And I think he's, I think it's a performance. 133 00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:17.460 I think it is a performance choice and he convinces me as a scared little boy. 134 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:26.519 I think the direction actually has a sort of pretty significant role in the way that he's portrayed. 135 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:32.460 And so things like, you know, increasing the sound of him breathing, having him blink. 136 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:35.519 Because this is Richard Clark, Peter. 137 00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:38.519 It is, and he did the doctor's wife as well, didn't he? 138 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:40.019 Yeah, he did. 139 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:40.500 He did. 140 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:42.600 And Gridlock and Lazarus experiment. 141 00:14:42.659 --> 00:14:45.600 And I think he does a really tremendously good job here. 142 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:49.500 I think, you know, the visuals are really quite impressive. 143 00:14:49.559 --> 00:15:10.320 But I also think he manages to coax a reasonable performance out of this kid, just by sort of restricting the things that he needs to do and by relying on conveying his emotions, not just through the kid's performance, but through the way that his world is presented. 144 00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:16.379 We know what George is feeling because we see what he sees and what he sees are these sort of ordinary things. 145 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:17.759 Are they ordinary? 146 00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:24.779 These strangely sort of anachronistic things that furnish his bedroom? 147 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:26.279 All frightening. 148 00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:40.919 And so because Clark makes the world George's world, you know, we're able, I think, to kind of have a better handle on that character than maybe the performance was capable of conveying. 149 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:48.539 I think there can be a problem with kids that age, um, where it can be a little bit hit and miss and a lot of it does depend on the direction. 150 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.519 But when you just go very slightly older. 151 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:52.860 So I think George is probably about 8 years old. 152 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:57.600 When you go a bit older to Toby in Curse the Blackspot or Caitlin Blackwood. 153 00:15:57.659 --> 00:16:00.840 You just can get a more nuanced performance from them. 154 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:02.399 Yeah. 155 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:03.179 Yeah. 156 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:09.179 He seems younger than eight, but I'm not very good at judging that, but he is 8 in the dialogue, I think. 157 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:10.139 Yeah. 158 00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.840 And what you said about Richard Clark is true. 159 00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:20.340 I mean, he puts some really great images on the screen, that location that they found for the estate looks incredible. 160 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:27.600 Those wide shots where it just all looks like a puzzle box that's been kind of put together, is incredible, like a weird jigsaw. 161 00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:32.940 And again, that juxtaposition with the Victorian kind of tropes. 162 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:41.279 It looks like some kind of hellish factory because it's behind gates and high walls and there's barbed wire on kind of the ground floor. 163 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.620 So it's a really weird and interesting look. 164 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.720 I think it's beautifully shot and lit. 165 00:16:48.779 --> 00:17:08.640 I think it's a case of the director and the director of photography really working together well to make what is a pretty ugly structure, quite beautiful, and the palate that's used in the episode, the yellows, the oranges, the greens, the browns, particularly when we get inside Alex's flat. 166 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:13.799 I mean, it's the production design, it all just comes together really well on that front, I think. 167 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.759 Yeah, so I think it's the housing estate looks quite amazing. 168 00:17:17.819 --> 00:17:18.359 Yeah. 169 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:21.299 And it reminds me for Jeffrey Smart painting. 170 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:31.500 There's a tiny image of Matt in the bottom right hand corner of a lonely man in a huge sort of urban landscape, and it's very much like a Jeffrey Smart painting as well. 171 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:32.400 It looks brilliant. 172 00:17:32.460 --> 00:18:02.940 I just remember being sort of particularly struck by how the TARDIS appears, and maybe this has been done before, but the TARDIS materialises as a reflection in a puddle, and then focus is pulled as people come out, you know, like there's a very, you know, the shots are interestingly composed, and it does make, well, it does contribute to making the estate somewhere kind of threatening. 173 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:03.900 We're not doing history. 174 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:10.019 We're not doing a planet, but we are doing something that is just as weird, I think. 175 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.359 That shop is beautiful. 176 00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:15.240 It actually, I really enjoyed it as it was happening. 177 00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:20.519 And I cast my mind back and I think I can't verify that the only other time it's been done is in the war games. 178 00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.559 Yes, you may well be right there, I think. 179 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:33.779 The other thing I find quite unsettling about the design work is the 2 interiors of the flats that we see. 180 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:45.900 The decor is still sort of the original, presumably 1970s kind of decor because the physical location is a 1970s tower block. 181 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:52.500 And so they seem to have gone with the decision that this place was set up and then it's just been left. 182 00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:55.019 You know, nothing's ever been updated. 183 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:57.480 There's 1970s wallpaper everywhere. 184 00:18:57.539 --> 00:18:59.579 Even when we go to Purcell. 185 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:06.359 I think he's got like a flat screen TV, but things like his hi-fi and whatnot are older models. 186 00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:10.859 And also, Brendan, those weird anachronisms like the serving window into the kitchen. 187 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.660 Yeah, yeah. 188 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.480 There's one of those in Rose's Flat in Rose, isn't there? 189 00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:16.559 Exactly. 190 00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:19.440 Like, you know, that is a standard feature of when the block was built. 191 00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:27.900 But if you look at Rose and Jackie's flat, you know, they've obviously repainted Jackie likes her pinks and her reds, so that's what they've gone for. in the 1st season. 192 00:19:29.339 --> 00:19:39.960 Whereas here, you've got the 1970s sort of patterned, as you say, Corey, the greens and the yellows wallpaper, those slightly sickly colours. 193 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:46.859 And, you know, George's room, it's not like a nice blue paint, like you might find in a child's bedroom. 194 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.500 I think I had a similar shade, but in green as a kid. 195 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.579 It's old sort of nature wallpaper. 196 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:58.500 And he's got the sort of 1920s, 1930s wardrobe as well. 197 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:04.680 And then you have, as you say, Nathan, all the modern toys, and it just all creates this feeling of unease. 198 00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:10.619 I have this horrible memory which has just surfaced. 199 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:13.859 And I think it must have been staying in. 200 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:22.799 There's one grandparent that I used to stay with sort of reasonably regularly, but there was like a great grandmother. 201 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:33.960 I think I stayed in my great grandmother's house and she had that weird old, is it Deco, that sort of weird old furniture, which I actually found really threatening. 202 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:38.700 Um, and I'm not quite sure about the smell of it as well, wasn't there? 203 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:40.980 Yeah, yeah, there's something sort of uneasy about it. 204 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.140 I mean, this is Mark Gatis's wheelhouse, right? 205 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.259 He's sort of mid-20th century stuff. 206 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.680 The aesthetic of League of Gentlemen was very similar. 207 00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:54.420 Everything was sort of very old and kind of garish and bad taste. 208 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.819 And I think that bedroom is terrifying. 209 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:02.460 I mean, I know it's terrifying because it's meant to convey the fact that George is scared. 210 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:12.420 But like, I don't know why Alex doesn't just look at the bedroom and say, holy crap, these things are all incredibly frightening and they need to be put away somewhere. 211 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.480 That's why they just kissed it out the bedroom for IKEA. 212 00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:16.259 It would have been fine. 213 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:18.000 That's right. 214 00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:19.859 It's so horrible. 215 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:21.599 I mean, it is so horrible. 216 00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:23.160 No wonder the kids' scared. 217 00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:25.380 And the toys aren't modern, are they? 218 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:31.380 I mean, they're sort of like the crummy wind up robots and all of that sort of thing. 219 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:36.960 Again, these are the toys of Gatus's childhood and not of any kid now, I think. 220 00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:45.119 I really like the aesthetic focus of these episodes. everything, like the toys and the room, they all fit together really well. 221 00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.700 And so it helps to create a really defined world. 222 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.180 I mean, it is a little bit subdued, I think. 223 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:59.460 It could have had a dash of Paradise Towers, kind of, you know, madcap look, which is the last time we visited a high rise in Doctor Who. 224 00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:01.380 Um, but I like it. 225 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.059 I think it really works kind of well. 226 00:22:03.059 --> 00:22:10.440 And like you say, it's that unsettling world where it's meant to be something which is modern and which we recognise, but it's kind of not. 227 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:12.839 Yeah, yeah. 228 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:31.380 I'd love to hear what you guys think about the TARDIS team themselves. 229 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:37.319 I find them all slightly out of character in this story. 230 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:43.440 Matt isn't particularly nice to Alex at all throughout the entire story, the way he talks to him. 231 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:54.299 There's normally such energy and enthusiasm and um, and spark in Matt, but it feels like he's working against dialogue that he doesn't feel entirely comfortable saying. 232 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.519 I don't know what everyone else feels about this. 233 00:22:56.579 --> 00:23:00.480 And Rory is sort of annoyingly obtuse a lot of the time. 234 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:04.140 Um, he seems to just dismiss what's happening around him. 235 00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:12.059 And yet, If we're to look at where the episode sits in the season, he's gone through a lot in the episodes leading up to this point. 236 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:14.940 So you'd think he'd be a little bit more adept at handling time travel. 237 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.500 Of course, we know it was filmed 1st and due to go out very early in the season. 238 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:26.220 So you could probably forgive it for that, that actually he's probably still on his pee plates, I guess, if it's earlier in the season. 239 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:28.559 But because it's placed in the 2nd half of the season. 240 00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:37.019 I just really struggled with the idea that he was like, oh, we're dead, and Amy was having to always bring him back on track and get him to sort of focus on what was happening. 241 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.160 If it weren't for her, I think Rory would have been a real mess in the episode. 242 00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:43.259 So I'd love to hear what people think about that. 243 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:49.500 Corey, I was thinking exactly the same thing as I was watching it because Amy and Rory have just been through an ordeal. 244 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:53.819 You know, they've lost their daughter and the whole Mel's river kind of revelation. 245 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:59.519 But here they kind of shrug off the idea of a child in distress and Rory even cracks a joke about it. 246 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:12.720 And so it is an artefact of the swap in the running order, but it's a good reason why Doctor Who shouldn't tackle those kind of big traumatic ideas like losing a child, which aren't a good fit for it because you need follow through that it doesn't really get. 247 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:14.460 No. 248 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:34.859 I mean, the arc, even though it turns up in just about every episode, we're reminded of some important element of the arc in just about every episode, and that does happen here where the sort of nursery rhyme that's been in the soundtrack appears over the screen readout of Lake Silencio in the very final scene. 249 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:41.279 So, but generally speaking, the arc doesn't intrude on the individual episodes apart from little moments like that. 250 00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:44.400 And here it is, I think, a problem. 251 00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:48.720 I think it is a problem that we're just off on jolly adventures again. 252 00:24:48.779 --> 00:24:52.319 And the horrible trauma that Amy's been through is just not addressed at all. 253 00:24:52.380 --> 00:24:54.359 And he doesn't want to address it. 254 00:24:54.420 --> 00:25:07.259 He doesn't want this to be a show about a woman who's lost her child because that's not what Doctor Who can handle and Doctor Who is a sort of family adventure fantasy show. 255 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:13.079 So maybe the losing a child wasn't a good fit for the show in the 1st place. 256 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:14.640 Yeah. 257 00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:15.420 Yeah. 258 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:25.380 And, you know, we will see in a couple of seasons where Stephen Moffatt goes, okay, no, let's, you know, if I put a character through trauma, let's address that for a whole season and that brings its own problems as well. 259 00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:33.539 The moment I find Rory so out of character in this is actually when he says, oh, maybe we should leave the kid to the monsters. 260 00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:34.680 Yeah. 261 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:40.200 There's not even considering like this is after, you know, they've lost melody. 262 00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:49.440 That just seems such a weird thing for Rory to say, and it's literally just there for George to overhear so that Rory and Amy are someone he's scared of. 263 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.220 And so he'll put them in the dollhouse. 264 00:25:53.279 --> 00:26:00.539 And the funny thing is, I look at that and I go, Actually, I can imagine Amy saying that more. 265 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:08.160 Like Amy is a bit more flippant like that, whereas Rory is usually the one to go, well, no, we need to be more cautious, et cetera, et cetera. 266 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:10.619 And he's been set up as more empathetic, hasn't he? 267 00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:11.819 Yeah exactly. 268 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:18.599 I will admit that I still laugh a great deal when he sits up in the dollhouse and says, oh, we're dead again. 269 00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:21.000 Again. 270 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:28.140 Because that was something I had a very polite argument about with Tom Spielsbury on Twitter once. 271 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:30.299 He's like, Rory and Amy don't die that often. 272 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:31.799 I'm like, here's a spreadsheet. 273 00:26:31.859 --> 00:26:36.119 They don't have that as much as Harry Kim, but... 274 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:37.980 Because my answer do everything as a spreadsheet. 275 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:52.859 It's interesting because, of course, Arthur Darville plays that perfectly well because he's a very good actor, but he, yeah, he still turned into sort of Harry Sullivan at his most buffoonish for, for much of this. 276 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.640 And it is just a bit of a weird choice. 277 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.539 And that line about, um, you know, maybe we should leave him to the monsters. 278 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:05.640 It actually replaced something else where when they were initially going up and having doors slammed in their face. 279 00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:09.900 When they got back together, Rory said, well, you know, no one likes being knocked up in the middle of the night. 280 00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:13.140 It's like those people who knock your door to talk to you about God. 281 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:19.740 And the doctor's like, oh, yes, them, and they have this conversation where the doctor implies that anyone who does that is actually an alien. 282 00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:35.880 And George overhears that and associates that with Rory and Amy, but, um, Stephen Moffat eventually said, you know, let's not annoy, um, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses and people who go around doing that door knocking or what have you. 283 00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:37.559 And Mark Gater said in an interview. 284 00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:40.140 I got away with it for 5 drafts. 5 drafts. 285 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:41.460 I didn't think I'd get past one. 286 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:54.299 Um, And then and then at the end of the story, um, as Dr. Amy and Rory are leaving, there was going to be a man and a woman knocking on a door and saying to the 2 twins, is mummy home and handing them a leaflet? 287 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.319 You know, slightly livid. 288 00:27:58.380 --> 00:27:59.880 Slightly laboured. 289 00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:01.140 Probably an element too far. 290 00:28:01.619 --> 00:28:10.740 But yeah, it does it does give us then this contrivance that Rory suddenly has to be this insensitive, slightly panicky idiot, you know. 291 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:14.640 He's sort of given, he's sort of given the dodo role, really. 292 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:27.599 I think that they are shunted into a subplot that is completely weightless and is merely just atmosphere and sort of standard horror tropes. 293 00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:31.859 I think there's just not very much to what's going on in the dollhouse. 294 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:33.720 So we sort of slowly wander around. 295 00:28:33.779 --> 00:28:35.880 It's lit. 296 00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:41.160 I mean, they even make the point themselves, don't they, in dialogue that if it had been well lit, it wouldn't be scary. 297 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.140 You know, and take the Warriors and the deep lesson. 298 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:51.900 And so there's nothing very much to that, I think. 299 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:58.019 They are just shunted off very quickly into a side plot to leave the doctor alone with Alex. 300 00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:04.980 And the doctor is in that awkward position of having kind of forced his way into Alex's home under false pretences. 301 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:11.519 Um, And it not being who Alex kind of thinks he is. 302 00:29:11.579 --> 00:29:19.140 And that is sort of awkward, you know, to have him sort of in the kitchen making tea after he's been explicitly told to leave. 303 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.619 You know, there's something slightly unpleasant about that. 304 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:26.640 I do, I do like his I'm the doctor speech. 305 00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:31.380 You know, it gives a speech about who he is and how he got there. 306 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:37.980 And it's the sort of speech that, you know, David Tennant would have showboated his way through. 307 00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:48.240 And Matt Smith chooses to deliver it really quite casually and just to let the words do the job rather than his performance. 308 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:52.980 And I was struck by how well that worked. 309 00:29:53.339 --> 00:29:57.119 The focus is entirely on the doctor in this episode, I think. 310 00:29:57.180 --> 00:29:59.819 And Matt does a great job as always. 311 00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:08.099 I mean, it doesn't matter if he's up against the child playing George or if he's up against Daniel Mays, who's terrific and has had a stellar career. 312 00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:11.519 He injects life into every scene. 313 00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:18.480 And I think it is clear that Amy and Rory have been shunted off into this subplot, whereas you said, Nathan, nothing really happens. 314 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:20.400 There's not really enough incidents. 315 00:30:20.460 --> 00:30:27.960 It a little bit spooky, but I think the fact that it's just a bare dollhouse actually hurts it visually because we're just walking through an undressed set. 316 00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:30.779 And so there's not much of visual interest there either. 317 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:34.680 What do you think of the um, the peg dolls? 318 00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:38.519 They're kind of emblematic of the episode, aren't they? 319 00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:45.059 Because, um, they look good and the sound design is creepy, but they're kind of more unsettling than scary. 320 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:47.460 They don't quite have as much impact as they should. 321 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:53.220 But that said, I think the transformation of Purcell is fantastic, like really unsettling. 322 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:59.339 And then when it happens to Amy, it's a genuine moment of body horror, because you're not sure what's going to happen next. 323 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:01.319 I actually don't agree. 324 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:03.180 I think the episode pulls its punches a bit. 325 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.940 It is unsettling, but it's not particularly scary. 326 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:11.039 Mind you, I'm not a 12 year old, but that's, I know hard to believe, but it's true. 327 00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:24.420 And in terms of pulling its punches, it's, well, I guess you could argue that the imagination is much more powerful, but I wanted to see, I wanted to see Amy transform into the doll, but we actually had the reverse angle of that. 328 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:39.900 And I guess that's because of the reveal when she turns or the doll, Amy Doll turns and faces Rory, but just a taste of that transformation before we cut back to Rory's point of view would have been, would have been just enough to just push it a little bit further for me. 329 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.299 It just felt like it was a bit tepid that moment. 330 00:31:43.019 --> 00:31:49.799 I think that the scene where Purcell transforms and he looks in horror at his own kind of wooden hand. 331 00:31:49.859 --> 00:31:54.359 I think it would have been much harder to watch Karen do that. 332 00:31:54.420 --> 00:32:02.160 And so I think it is a deliberate choice not to kind of rub our noses in in Amy's transformation. 333 00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:04.619 Where's the fun in that, Nathan? 334 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:05.700 Where's the phone? 335 00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:11.519 I'm with you on this one, Corey. 336 00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:17.759 Because I think also it represents something that I think is in Moffat's thinking. 337 00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:24.359 He's never really spoken about that, but, you know, Moffat... is a very clever person. 338 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:33.900 And we as regular viewers of the show, and again, not 12 year olds, we know that Amy's going to be fine by the end of the episode. 339 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.200 She has to be fine because there's a story out going on. 340 00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:37.920 You know what I mean? 341 00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:47.160 Um, And I think, Sometimes Stephen Moffat remembers that we know that, but forgets that kids might not. 342 00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:53.400 And so he probably goes, oh, we don't need to see Amy go through it because we've seen Purcell go through it. 343 00:32:53.940 --> 00:33:01.319 And Amy's going to be fine by the end anyway. anyway, it's like, well, well, no, in that in that case, show the full extent of it. 344 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:09.539 Because you're, you're not going to get the shock of Amy's still a peg doll at the end and is going around the TARDIS going like this. 345 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:12.420 Sorry, once again, miming on a podcast. 346 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:12.900 It's great. 347 00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:18.480 But yeah, I agree with you, Corey. 348 00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:21.000 You know, it's already a sad and surprising moment. 349 00:33:21.059 --> 00:33:23.039 Make it as sad and surprising as possible. 350 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:33.180 I mean, especially considering what happened a few weeks ago at the end of a good man goes to war, Moffatt is not averse to disgusting us. 351 00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:34.500 Yeah. 352 00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.920 And I think this is a moment where he could have pushed it further. 353 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:40.740 It's such a dark season. 354 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:49.559 Up to this point, it is pretty dark and as Peter and I discussed, uh, away from this podcast, um, sometimes it's quite devoid of humour. 355 00:33:49.619 --> 00:33:54.900 That sort of trademark humour we need to sort of break up the darkness in the world of Doctor Who. 356 00:33:54.900 --> 00:34:01.619 And so for us to sort of step back from that kind of reveal and see Amy transform into the doll. 357 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:06.059 I just, it's at odds with the tone of the rest of the season as far as I'm concerned. 358 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.900 I think this is a sapphire and steel dog 2 episode. 359 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:12.119 I think that's what Mark is going for. 360 00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:17.099 And so actually Sapphire and Steel was not graphic and was not in your face. 361 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:18.480 It sort of hinted at everything. 362 00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:31.440 And so I think this episode is, as you say, Corey, I do think it pulls its punches at times, but it's sort of getting away with creating atmosphere with a few sound effects and, you know, a fan in the corner of the studio doing all the heavy lifting. 363 00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:33.179 I mean, an actual fan, not Mark eaters. 364 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.780 And I quite like it for that. 365 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:43.679 I like the fact that it's basically just creating a world with not much and it's hinting at a lot of things without putting it all on screen. 366 00:34:44.940 --> 00:34:51.179 One such example of that is that nursery rhyme, which was a um, a post-production decision. 367 00:34:51.300 --> 00:35:04.860 So they had in um, 2 young child actors uh, recording the dolls dialogue, and what they found when they were editing was the dolls were really creepy when they were standing still. 368 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.219 But less creepy when they were moving. 369 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:09.840 And... 370 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:11.519 Because they look stupid. 371 00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:20.340 So Stephen Moffat asked Mark Gaiters, hey, can you come up with this nursery rhyme and Mark came up with it. 372 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:23.820 It's like, actually, we can now see this through the 2nd half of the season. 373 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:27.360 And of course, this being shot first, they could then factor that in. 374 00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:36.719 And it really, really helps because I'd forgotten that we started hearing the nursery rhyme at the beginning of the episode and I remembered it was through the season. 375 00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:38.940 So when we start hearing of the incidental music. 376 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:39.960 I got a little frisson. 377 00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:40.980 It's like, oh, it's here. 378 00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:47.159 You know, we've got the nursery right now and it does really, really help the peg dolls. 379 00:35:47.219 --> 00:35:58.619 Around this time was when I stopped collecting every single action figure because I think the 1st set for this series came out and was a bit uninspired. 380 00:35:58.679 --> 00:35:59.820 I'm just like, okay. 381 00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:17.219 But the one I was tempted to get, but I never did, was the peg doll that came out, because I absolutely love their design and the, like, the grotesque, massive faces, and it's like, yeah, I can easily imagine a child being absolutely terrified by this. 382 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:28.079 And one thing Mark Gator said about the script was that he was inspired as a children by action figures and toys because they were almost human, but not quite. 383 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:33.780 And he couldn't quite see what other children saw in them because aren't they hideous? 384 00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:34.619 Don't they terrify you? 385 00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:38.099 Where does that dollhouse come from? 386 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:44.400 Like, I just don't understand why that dollhouse with these weird Victorian dolls is in his cupboard. 387 00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:46.139 You know, Mrs. Rossiter gave it to them. 388 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:48.300 It's so weird. 389 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:59.400 Like all of those toys, all of that furniture, like all of that sort of anachronistic kind of set dressing, like it's there to serve Mark Gatas's aesthetic. 390 00:36:59.460 --> 00:37:01.440 But it doesn't really make any sense. 391 00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:07.380 And like the peg dolls, I just don't know what they even are. 392 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.480 You know, it's it is very strange. 393 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:15.599 Yeah, it's a peculiarly kind of league of gentlemen idea of kind of wide British childhood. 394 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:18.780 Yeah, yeah, I think that's it. 395 00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:34.500 Does anyone have any thoughts about the absence of women in this episode? 396 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.139 It's a very male dominated episode. 397 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:48.420 The mother Claire is sent off to night shift, and then comes back the next day after the men have fixed the problem and is effectively patted on the head and told, it's all okay. 398 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:49.800 Trust us, it's being fixed. 399 00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:51.360 Now can you fix the kippers for us? 400 00:37:51.420 --> 00:38:00.480 Well, Matt and Alex, they go out on the balcony and sort of tie up the loose scenes and you can hear in the kitchen going, kippers are ready. 401 00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:01.619 And I thought that's about all. 402 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:03.360 She's been reduced to that. 403 00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:06.119 Call me that was one of my favourite parts of the episode. 404 00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:07.739 It just reminded me. 405 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:16.619 It reminded me of the movie Hairspray where Zac Efron's been singing and dancing around the room and John Travolta's Edna calls out, Link, your pork is ready. 406 00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:20.760 If you laugh out loud. 407 00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:28.320 So like Gatus's next script for the show won't have any women in it at all, apart from Clara, is that right? 408 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:34.440 And it's just a sort of very TRAD approach to Doctor Who, and I just think he's more comfortable writing man. 409 00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:42.300 And, you know, the woman who gets the biggest speaking part is Elsie and she's a horrific stereotype. 410 00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:43.559 I think it's a weakness. 411 00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:51.000 And I also just think there is a level of absurdity about that ending. 412 00:38:51.000 --> 00:39:13.260 Because the child is presented to us as a kid who, you know, seems to have some like OCD symptoms and, you know, various kind of real world issues, you know, the blinking and the being scared of everything and the rituals and all of that. 413 00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:25.559 Those are kind of real world problems, childhood problems that kind of just get solved by a sort of touching reconciliation scene, and then everything is going to be all right from then on. 414 00:39:25.619 --> 00:39:27.239 Our parents' love saves the day again. 415 00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:34.619 Yeah, it just seems just a little bit too pat. 416 00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:37.079 Like it just doesn't convince in any way. 417 00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:38.579 I think it's a problem. 418 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.280 You know, if it's an alien invasion, you can repel it. 419 00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:49.739 But if it's a kid with kind of emotional and behavioural problems, just fixing it like that just seems a little bit crap, I think. 420 00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:55.079 It just reminds me of what Pat said to Eddie once in AbFab. 421 00:39:55.139 --> 00:39:56.579 Oh, Eddie, we've been here before. 422 00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:58.679 That's what it feels like to me. 423 00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:04.920 It feels like, well, it's a remake of Fear Her, I think, in just about every respect, is it? 424 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:05.460 Goody. 425 00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.099 But that's what it is, isn't it? 426 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:12.059 It's like a, you know, fear her as more middle class than this. 427 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:14.820 It's in a suburban street. 428 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:28.260 There is a scary child who, you know, has the power through an alien or because of an alien to transform people and put them in a sort of weird kind of fantasy location. 429 00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:34.980 The child has suffered some trauma, and the doctor comes in, you know, goes through the fridge. 430 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:39.539 Um, he fixes the problem and then everything's okay again. 431 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.199 It isn't a story that really needed a remake. 432 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:49.559 And I, you know, like I think it's generally, I don't know, better shot than fear her. 433 00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:55.019 But it is in many respects, just a straight remake. 434 00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:00.659 It's what we were saying a little bit earlier about the Amy and Rory and their baby arc this season. 435 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:12.599 If you're going to delve into those kinds of things about, you know, childhood trauma, and as you were saying, Nathan, genuine childhood problems, don't kind of gloss over them too much, you know, don't go there if you're not going to deal with it in a reasonable way. 436 00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:17.820 Um, and also, Corey, what you were saying about the lack of female characters is true. 437 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:21.599 I think there's a recurrent theme in the Moffat era of paternal bonding. 438 00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:29.519 So we'll see it in closing time later this season as well, where it's all about the bond between the father and the child. 439 00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:33.840 And I think that probably comes from Stephen because, you know, he's got 2 sons. 440 00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:37.199 And I think so that was probably foreground in his mind. 441 00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:38.460 Yeah. 442 00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:41.699 Yeah, I agree with you there, Peter. 443 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:51.420 And I think also it's possibly a response to Russell's Doctor Who, where the family bonds were all about mothers, essentially. 444 00:41:51.480 --> 00:42:08.280 You know, you had Jackie, and when Pete was there, in either dimension, Pete's a bit rubbish, you know, even in the alternative dimension where he's a big success, he spends half the finale debating about whether he's going to save Rose or not and, you know, step up and be her father. 445 00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:14.099 And, you know, then you've got Francine, who's fabulous, and Clive, who's a bit rubbish because he's run off with Annelise. 446 00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:17.099 Say properly, Brendan. 447 00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:21.300 Hi, babe. 448 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:30.360 And then, of course, you got Sylvia, who is a bit rubbish, but we adore her because she's hilarious. 449 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:38.280 And you do have Wolf, who is a far more capable character and a father, but is still sort of kept in place by Sylvia. 450 00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:39.420 Like, oh, I voted for her. 451 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:39.960 You did not. 452 00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:41.519 She won't let me have it with can. 453 00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:42.059 They naughty? 454 00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:42.719 You know what I mean? 455 00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:53.940 Now, series 5 comes along, and I remember at the time was criticised for a lack, you know, we, Amy doesn't have a family, and that's the big problem, you know, and then they turn up for 5 minutes. 456 00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:59.039 So I think Stephen Moffatt here is like, right, I'm going to do families, but how do I do families in a way that haven't been done before. 457 00:42:59.099 --> 00:43:09.300 So we've got Avery, we've got Alex, and we've got Craig later in the season, all doing very similar stories to each other about bonding with their child. 458 00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:18.960 And it is interesting that in 2 of those 3 cases, the only way to do it is to remove the women. 459 00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:23.579 Yeah, you know, and even in close time. 460 00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:27.059 In all of those cases, yeah, in all of those cases, yeah. 461 00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:27.659 Yeah. 462 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:30.900 Like with closing time, I was going to say you've at least got Linda Barron. 463 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:31.860 You know what I mean? 464 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.880 who takes on a grand maternal, a figure in the story. 465 00:43:35.940 --> 00:43:45.480 Um, it's, I think it's slightly undermines what Moffat is trying to do of presenting um, father figures who overcome adversity for the sake of their child. 466 00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:51.659 And it's like, you can only do that by removing the mother from the story. is a bit of an odd message. 467 00:43:52.079 --> 00:44:00.840 You do have a big central arc that is about a mother and her daughter, though, and I don't think that makes up for it in any way. 468 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:05.760 I think it is a problem, but that is at least happening at the same time. 469 00:44:05.820 --> 00:44:07.920 But like the arc, it's a space arc. 470 00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:14.340 I think that is an effort to sort of balance it. 471 00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:22.800 It's like we've got, you know, the whole season is about motherhood, like Amy's motherhood of river and is that particularly successful? 472 00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:23.400 Perhaps not. 473 00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:25.500 So we'll make these mini arcs about these fathers. 474 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:27.420 Are they particularly successful, perhaps not. 475 00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:29.280 An effort was made. 476 00:44:40.739 --> 00:44:43.920 I actually think this is a pretty underrated episode. 477 00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:45.539 I think there's a lot to like. 478 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:50.880 I don't mind the idea of kind of the cuckoo child as the rationale for the urban horror setup. 479 00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:59.039 Um, we've had much more tenuously technobabbly explanations for things like the psychic pollen last year in Amy's choice. 480 00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:01.800 Um, and I think it is trying to say things. 481 00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:13.679 You know, there's there's sort of a little bit of comment being here on the breakdown of society and the impact on family and the isolation of kids, which I think is more relevant in a lockdown world than it was 10 years ago. 482 00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:24.300 But the problem as ever with Mark's scripts, and I do enjoy, um, you know, I do enjoy his scripts as a rule, is that they do have a good setup, but it's not quite developed that well. 483 00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:32.639 And so like we were saying with the subplot in the in the dollhouse, it's an interesting idea, but then nothing is really done with it and it loses steam. 484 00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:38.460 See, I actually think there's quite a lot to like about it, but it doesn't quite land, does it? 485 00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:41.159 I'm not sure I agree with you, Peter. 486 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:53.340 I actually think this episode is completely devoid of any real political position around class and around housing estates. 487 00:45:53.400 --> 00:46:05.099 Um, And I really struggled with the idea that the doctor just stays in George's room while Purcell does some heavy work on Alex to get the rent out of him. 488 00:46:05.219 --> 00:46:09.840 That seems a very odd choice for the doctor in that moment. 489 00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:17.340 If I were to place that situation in perhaps the old series, and this might be a problematic thing to say, but drop it into the old series. 490 00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:24.360 You can imagine the doctor possibly stepping out and intervening and um, and writing the wrong there, I guess. 491 00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:33.360 But I guess more to the point is that I don't think Gates is actually really saying anything about housing estates and about the breakdown of community. 492 00:46:33.420 --> 00:46:35.880 There's a fleeting comment. 493 00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:47.940 I think that Matt's doctor makes about housing estates, but it flies by so quick that I think, you know, you have to watch the episode a number of times to pick up that comment. 494 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.960 There's nothing really about what do these housing states represent? 495 00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:55.440 They, in effect, ring fence working class people. 496 00:46:55.500 --> 00:47:00.480 Um, socially disadvantaged people away from the rest of the rest of us. 497 00:47:00.539 --> 00:47:03.000 That's certainly my take on it. 498 00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:06.840 And there's, it's problematic that the doctor doesn't comment on that at all in the episode. 499 00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:10.559 Yeah, I really struggle with it, actually, to be honest, just to be contrary. 500 00:47:10.619 --> 00:47:11.340 Sorry, chaps. 501 00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:13.019 No, not contrary at all. 502 00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:15.780 I mean, I actually I agree to a large extent with you. 503 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.420 I think that there isn't a lot of comment in the episode. 504 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:29.880 I think Mark is, you know, he is striving to say a couple of things, but his politics are not the politics of the working class and not the politics of kind of people who live in a states. 505 00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:34.079 And so um, I'm not sure if he knows exactly what he's saying. 506 00:47:34.139 --> 00:47:37.679 I think he's trying to say a few things, but he doesn't actually end up saying them. 507 00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:39.420 So I actually agree with you broadly. 508 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:41.940 Like I knew you would, Peter. 509 00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:44.460 We always do, Corey. 510 00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:50.039 I think that Gatus's interests are aesthetic rather than political. 511 00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:54.239 I think he ends up being sort of accidentally conservative as a result of that. 512 00:47:54.300 --> 00:48:07.980 But what he really wants to do is bring that sort of grotesque mid-20th century horror aesthetic that he had in League of Gentlemen, and to some extent in the idiot's lantern, and then sort of do it in a modern setting. 513 00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:11.099 And it, you know, his most political script. 514 00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:17.400 I think probably, like his most explicitly political script is sleep no more. 515 00:48:17.460 --> 00:48:25.800 But even there, he can't resist shoe horning his mid-20th century aesthetic into that in places as well. 516 00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:28.980 And indeed, shoehorning in Reese Shearsmith. 517 00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:31.019 Oh yeah, quite. 518 00:48:31.019 --> 00:48:31.920 Which is not a problem. 519 00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:37.619 He's the best part of the episode No, I should imagine a lot of people don't have a problem with shoehorning. 520 00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.239 Why did I know you were going to say something like that, Peter. 521 00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:54.119 I agree with what you're saying about Mark Gator said, because, you know, if you look back at the Unquiet Dead, and he's commented on this since then, people kind of said at the time, so is this anti-refugee? 522 00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:56.099 And Mark says, oh my god, no, it's a space thing. 523 00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:56.519 No. 524 00:48:56.579 --> 00:48:58.440 No, that's not what I was going for at all. 525 00:48:58.500 --> 00:49:07.320 You know, but it's because, you know, he's thought about, as you say, the aesthetic, the script function without thinking about the world that script is going out into. 526 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.360 You know what I mean? 527 00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:12.719 But Peter said something he liked about this. 528 00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:31.019 I'd like to say something I really like, and I know, Corey, it's something you brought up earlier that you don't think works so well, but I actually really like the relationship between the doctor and Alex after the doctor gives him the stunning star speech and whatever, especially that conversation about, do we open the cupboard or not? 529 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:45.960 There is such a sort of doctor and Harry Sullivan vibe to that whole conversation where the doctor's saying, no, no, it's far too dangerous. and Alex says, yes, it's far too dangerous. and the doctor goes, yes, Alex, what are you thinking? 530 00:49:46.019 --> 00:49:47.639 We can't possibly open the cupboard. 531 00:49:47.699 --> 00:49:49.440 Now hold this cup while they open the cupboard. 532 00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.599 You've taught me into it. 533 00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:53.280 It's really well done. 534 00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:55.199 It's really well done. 535 00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.360 And also, I don't quite know where this comes from. 536 00:49:57.420 --> 00:49:59.519 But... 537 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:10.800 Here and with James Corden, there is a homoerotic vibe, when Matt's Mind, please don't put that image in my head. 538 00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:12.480 I'm sorry but it's true. 539 00:50:12.539 --> 00:50:13.500 I'm sorry. 540 00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:14.280 I'm sorry. 541 00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:18.900 Peter, we must face our fears if this story is about... 542 00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:21.480 If not, put James Corden in the cupboard. 543 00:50:21.539 --> 00:50:34.199 But, um, yeah, there's this homoerotic vibe, especially during that stunning star speech, they're just gazing into each other's eyes while the doctor is actually, not even stunning stars. 544 00:50:34.260 --> 00:50:37.619 He's basically giving the Florana speech without become with me at the end. 545 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:38.940 You know what I mean? 546 00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.059 And they're just staring into each other's eyes and you just cut to Alex babies. 547 00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:44.159 You're not from social services. 548 00:50:44.219 --> 00:50:49.019 It's such a brilliant thing and it really brings it down to earth. 549 00:50:49.079 --> 00:51:02.340 And the other thing I really love about that relationship is, at the end, when they're surrounded on the stairs, the doctor explains why George is feeling the way he's feeling, but he doesn't say to Alex, now go hug your son. 550 00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:05.460 That would have utterly ruined it. 551 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:14.099 He says you can end this, but he doesn't explain how, and it's up to Alex to figure that out because that love has to come from a genuine place. 552 00:51:15.780 --> 00:51:20.039 I mean, George calls out dad, and that's what he responds to. 553 00:51:20.099 --> 00:51:26.519 And, you know, he responds as dad in a situation where he's questioning whether the child is his at all. 554 00:51:26.579 --> 00:51:32.760 And it is kind of the same thing that we are going to get in a few weeks time with closing time. 555 00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:42.780 So I think maybe fear her suffers from being in the same season as the idiot's lantern, which it has lots of similarities with. 556 00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:48.000 And I think this one probably suffers from being a little bit too much like closing time. 557 00:51:48.179 --> 00:51:55.800 I know it sounds like I'm really down on this episode, but I agree, there is much to enjoy about it, and it's hearts are in the right place, I think. 558 00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:26.460 Well, new listener, that's all we have time for this week. 559 00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:31.260 You will be back next week for another Star Trek episode with the girl who waited. 560 00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:51.480 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody InterTara, maximum power, and Untitled Star Trek Project. 561 00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:56.460 Until next time, please go easy on the patented wallpaper. 562 00:52:56.519 --> 00:52:58.800 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 563 00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:00.059 Good night. 564 00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:00.719 Good night. 565 00:53:00.780 --> 00:53:01.559 Good night. 566 00:53:06.059 --> 00:53:11.760 That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Brendan Jones and Corey McMahon. 567 00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:13.739 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 568 00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:19.739 This episode, Fixed the Kippers, was recorded on the 29th of August 2021 and released on the 14th of November. 569 00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:34.019 Fans of the League of Gentlemen will be delighted to know that for FDE 29th of August is new today, which means that this episode was recorded with all 4 of us wearing nothing but upsettingly fluffy merkins. 570 00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:38.340 As a result, we strongly recommend unsubscribing from our YouTube channel. 571 00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:48.420 Also, can we just say that Mark, being the big old geek that he is throwing in jokes about Snow White and the 7 Keys to do this day? 572 00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:49.980 That's right. 573 00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:51.659 He laugh out loud. 574 00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:54.300 I thought to myself, what others could you have? 575 00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:56.579 How about Ian Barbara and the 40 Thebes? 576 00:53:58.380 --> 00:54:00.719 Captain Jack and the Beanstalk. 577 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:14.340 You know, like I'm, this is the tag now, I think, at this and I just think this episode's really boring and I'm glad that you all derived some kind of enjoyment from it. 578 00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:15.480 Oh God. 579 00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:17.699 I thought it was charming. 580 00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:18.300 Oh, bugger. 581 00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:18.960 I agree with you. 582 00:54:19.019 --> 00:54:19.380 It is. 583 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:19.920 It's boring. 584 00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:21.179 I had to watch it 3 times. 585 00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:22.920 It was like, oh, not again. 586 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:28.380 Do you know that comparison with EastEnders? 587 00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:29.579 Sorry, you go on, Brennan. 588 00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:35.219 I was just going to say, I, you know, I enjoy it, but I don't overly enjoy this series. 589 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:39.420 So would I have enjoyed it as much if it were part of last year's series? 590 00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:48.480 Um, which also begs the question, is dragging a stereotypical little old lady into the trash better or worse than driving a van into them? 591 00:54:49.380 --> 00:54:51.599 Oh, I go for the van. 592 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:53.579 A van every time. man every time. 593 00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:58.739 I'm absolutely on board with the violence towards old people in Amy's choice. hilarious. 594 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:01.440 It's a go-to moment. 595 00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:02.460 It's a go-to moment. 596 00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:04.500 Hit up. 597 00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:05.340 Whack up. 598 00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:10.199 It's a go-get. man. 599 00:55:10.260 --> 00:55:10.800 All right. 600 00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:13.199 So, shall we do an outro?