WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:38:04

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Hello, Delister, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast that's a bit out of practice, but has

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certainly had some wonderful feedback.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Joe. And I'm Jack.

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Well, it's the night before the doctor's certain death, and so who

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else would he spend his last few hours with but James Corden?

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We all learn a valuable lesson about fatherhood.

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We have a bit of a dance, and it's all as funny and thought

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provoking as usual.

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Time to say goodbye, doctor.

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It's closing time.

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So, I have a feeling that we did this one before together earlier

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this year.

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This is just a remake of the lodger, isn't it?

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Yeah, I mean, if you really like the lodge of the 1st time and

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really laughed at the jokes, you'll get a, I guess, a warm chuckle

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out of this, depending on, depending on how hard you love the 1st

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time.

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So we could make a list of the things that are the same, okay?

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So we have people going missing, being lured to their death by

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aliens for some secret purpose.

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Yep, and those aliens also are scraping by to survive.

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They're on their last legs.

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We had a spaceship above a house and this time we've got a

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spaceship below a shop.

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We have James Corden's character, has to take on an exciting new

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role, a new responsibility that he is tentative about and he

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solves the alien invasion plot by wholeheartedly accepting that

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new responsibility.

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There's a technological lure that is bringing human beings into an

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environment where they are stripped down for parts for a machine.

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The doctor is better at everything than James Corden.

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And love sodding, conquers all.

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Yeah, yeah, in both of them.

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In this abundance of repeats that closing time does with shtick

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that the lodger did, one of the saddest casualties is one of the

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lodger's great successes, which is the character of Sophie, who I

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think is...

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Seriously missing.

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Or as Nathan, as Nathan calls her, the next 14th doctor.

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Unfortunately, she was working full time on a stage play.

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She was asked to appear in the whole episode before scripting even

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began, but yeah, she could only give them 2 days of filming.

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But it's nice to know that, even though the whole thing, of course

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is let's get James Corden back with Matt Smith, they're like, well

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the episode wouldn't have been so good without Daisy Haggard as

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well, is Daisy available?

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Oh, unfortunately she isn't, but we can, we can still have her in

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the story.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, she does get some really lovely lines where she's

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like, actually, I've labelled all the food and, you know, arrows.

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Yeah, arrows, you know, it's again, it's an obvious setup, but

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when she comes back and the house is immaculate.

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It is really quite a lovely little scene.

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I really lamented in the lodger that there was that icky kissy

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scene between James Corden, Daisy Haggard at the end, but nothing

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could have prepared me for the butt clenching moment where I

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thought that Matt Smith and James Corder were going to kiss as

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they beamed into the Simonman's lair.

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That was a terrifying moment, you know.

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No, I don't want to see it.

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It's my favourite example of queer baiting in Doctor Who.

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Well, okay, I have a question then.

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Why are we watching a pale imitation of the lodger as we head into

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the finale of season 6?

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Series 6?

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Sorry.

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Well, like, I'm not super convinced it's a pale imitation of the

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lodger.

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It's not as fresh as the lodger, which was one of the things that

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the lodger had going for it.

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And Matt doesn't get naked in it.

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So there's that as well.

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But um, I think it's here for the same reason that the lodger is

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here.

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It's just a nice little character moment before we get into the

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sort of giant events of the series finale.

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I also think the reason that we have Craig in particular is that

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earlier this series in Let's Kill Hitler and also Last Week in the

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God Complex, it's kind of been made clear by those 2 stories that

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for the 11th doctor, the emotion he associates the most with his

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companions going right the way back to Rose is guilt.

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You know, he feels guilty for how Rose ended up and what happened

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to Martha's family, what happened to Donna, and he drops off Amy

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and Rory last week because he is afraid for them.

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So Craig is really the last person he has to check in on.

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And it's like, it's like he is just turning up to sort of go, okay

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you're all right.

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I did something right.

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Because he could we put those 2 together and then the last time we

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saw them, there was a crack appearing on their wall.

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Yeah.

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And if it did swallow them, presumably that was undone by the

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finale.

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So the doctor, he's kind of just popping in to kind of go, oh, well

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look, I did something right.

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And I think in that opening scene, because, you know, we have

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mentioned the saminess of a lot of closing time.

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One of the things I think in the beginning it does well is that

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obviously, the setup is, as we've mentioned, more or less the same

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as the lodger with people being lured in.

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We kind of drop in on Sophie and Craig's relationship at a point

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where Craig is in a moment of personal jeopardy.

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The difference being, as opposed to telling her, I love you.

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I can take care of the baby by myself.

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And it is, you know, when the doctor knocks on the door and goes

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hello, Craig, I'm back.

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It's literally shot in exactly the same way.

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But, um, uh, one of the reasons why I think, at least initially

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that kind of works is because Craig has, you know, gone through

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the lodger, so he picks up on the saminess of the situation.

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So where it's, you know, when he's walking around the kitchen

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table, it was like, no, no, no, I have nightmares about that

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face.

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And also, it wasn't lost on the production team because throughout

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most of filming, this script didn't actually have a title.

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It was untitled on the copies that were given to the actors, like

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it was just episode 12, because the writer had trouble coming up

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with a title, and unofficially it was referred to as the Lodger

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2.

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And also carry on lodging.

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They should have gone with that.

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I would have been an excellent time.

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And the original pitch, however, was 3 cybermen and a baby.

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Dear, that's so bad.

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To be fair, I don't think they strayed very far from that bitch.

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No, no.

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I mean, what sort of happened was the original function of the

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side men in the plot, which we'll get back to later, was somewhat

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different, and there were only 3 side men, whereas in the ship, in

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closing time, there are 6.

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And by that point, they kind of went, okay, well, you know, if you

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call it 6 cybermen and a baby, it gets further away from the title

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you're pasticing and it won't really work.

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So they had to come up with something else.

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The other potential title for this at a late stage was everything

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must go.

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Ah, that's good as well.

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So, yeah, everything must go on closing time. were both suggested

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by Clayton Hickman and closing time is the title, but one out.

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Is this the 1st season where there isn't a 2 part finale at the

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end of the season?

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That is correct.

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Yes.

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So this is the quietest penultimate episode that we've had because

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all of the other seasons.

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There's always been a massive like, you know, momentum building

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game changer as the penultimate episode.

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That does make this season stand out a bit.

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I'm not sure in an entirely positive way.

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I think I would actually, um, because Joe and I rewatched uh, the

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entirety of series 7 quite recently and the penultimate episode of

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part one of series 7 A was The Power of Three, which is quite

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standalone from Angels Take Manhattan, but it does end with that

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kind of grim sort of pronouncement with um, Brian kind of going

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bring them back alive.

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And you kind of get that here as well with the storyline hook into

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the Wedding of River song.

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But, um, yeah, I think you're right. about later as well, because

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that felt completely bolted onto this episode.

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I thought in quite an intrusive way, but that last scene.

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Surprise, surprise, Joe, it was.

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It was not part of the original script and it was added by Stephen

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Moffatt.

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Well, we talked about this in the lodger, though, didn't we?

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We said in the lodger that there was the scene with Amy at the

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ring at the end of the episode. had nothing to do with the episode

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as a whole.

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So let's talk about the sort of things that happen in the episode

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before the 2 part finale.

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Because if you think about, let's say, turn left in series 4, that

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ends with a massive reveal about what's happening going into the

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finale.

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The previous year was utopia, okay, which is nearly the 1st part

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of a three-part story.

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But we hadn't had that approach before.

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And I think that this is in Boomtown territory.

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It's a quieter, smaller scale story that is about just the

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regulars.

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And there are no regulars at this point, really, apart from the

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doctor.

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And I mean, the reason it's called closing time is not just

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because it's set in a shop, but because the doctor is going to his

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death.

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This is his last adventure before he goes and is killed on Lake

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Salencio.

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Is he though?

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going to his death?

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Yeah.

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I think he is absolutely killed in the Impossible Astronaut.

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That's the doctor.

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Canton is telling the truth, and the doctor is originally killed

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there.

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And the doctor clearly thinks that.

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He hasn't come up with a way out of it yet.

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And we see him at the end of the episode collecting the Stetson

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and the blue envelopes that appear in the Impossible Astronaut.

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So he's going straight from here to Utah in order to get killed

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and he already knows that's happening because of Amy admitting it

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to the real doctor and because of the files he got from the test

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selector, I think.

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And I think one of the things I would add on top of that is, and I

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think this is partly what distinguishes it as a lead in to the

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finale, is that I think in previous series finales, the way they

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work is it's kind of the doctor being pulled into a new story

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which is the story of the finale.

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Whereas the difference here, it's the doctor resigning himself and

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walking into the story of the finale, which in this case has been

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the story literally from episode one, which is the doctor dies.

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And this is kind of slightly well trodden material because we did

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have this same thing in the specials, I think.

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The doctor is aware that something is coming for him and that he

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will knock 4 times and that he's going to die.

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So we've already seen the doctor facing certain death.

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And I have to say that I like how Matt does it.

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There are some sort of sad moments.

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There's one thing where Craig says to him, you always win and you

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always survive and he sort of smiles a little ruefully and says

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those were the days.

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Even when he sort of puts his head against the wall of the Tartars

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at the very beginning and says, I'm done saving them.

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I'm not going to do this anymore.

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I think that Matt facing certain death does a better job of it

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than David Tennant does.

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It's all just a lot less overwrought, I think.

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Oh, a massive drama queen, so I think maybe too...

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It's just far too subtle and nuanced to me, I'm afraid.

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And you mentioned that bit where, and it's played very comedically

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when the doctor is just doing the doctory thing of noticing just

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about every discrepancy and every possible alien intervention that

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could be going on and him going, oh, no, no.

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He does a scan.

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Oh, no.

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And then Banks's head on the door and says, I'm going away now.

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Hard cut to the doctor not going away now. which is, which is

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admittedly, that is kind of my comedic Achilles heel.

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It is a very obvious gag, but it did get me very good.

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Speaking of parallels in other episodes, so in the Big Bang at the

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wedding, you know, when the doctor says I'm only at the wedding

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for the dancing, who ends up dancing with are all the kids and

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showing them a very silly dads?

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00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:35.340
And then as soon as the doctor is going to interfere.

246
00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.960
We cut to him showing kids expensive toys and say, go get money

247
00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:40.740
from your parents.

248
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.019
They're just going to spend it on something boring like lambs.

249
00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:44.580
Actually, this is a bit overpriced anyway.

250
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:47.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, great.

251
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.019
I love him there.

252
00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.940
And yappy, yappy the robot dog, and you've got Matt Padding, yappy

253
00:14:53.940 --> 00:14:54.480
like this.

254
00:14:54.539 --> 00:14:57.360
And later on when he picks up the Cyberman.

255
00:14:57.419 --> 00:14:59.820
He patsed it exactly the same way.

256
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.860
Yeah, he likes steps out of the house in the morning and he's like

257
00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:08.279
caressing it. like a little cat. it's so cute.

258
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:28.620
One of the things with this story that I think kind of makes it

259
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:33.419
such a success, in some respects, is the fact that James Corden

260
00:15:33.419 --> 00:15:37.379
and Matt Smith works so well as a comedic duo.

261
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:42.120
And I, you know, that is pretty much the reason why this episode

262
00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:47.159
exists is because they were like, James Corden, Matt Smith really

263
00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:47.700
hit it off.

264
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.019
Why not give them another episode?

265
00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:53.940
Yeah, and James Corden Starr was massively on the rise at this

266
00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:56.159
point because of Gavin and Stacy.

267
00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:00.899
And with the fact that we're kind of doing the same thing again.

268
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.080
Well, that's what you kind of get in buddy comedy movies.

269
00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:05.759
You know what I mean?

270
00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:09.059
Like if you watch all the Marx Brothers movies back to back or

271
00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:13.440
Laurel and Hardy or Abbott and Costello, it's the same kind of

272
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:18.059
gags held together by a plot, the plot exists to serve the

273
00:16:18.059 --> 00:16:18.779
chemistry.

274
00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:21.480
And I think it's okay to do that occasionally.

275
00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:25.259
And the funny thing is, I think the closest thing we've had to it

276
00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:30.240
in new series who, before Cordon and Smith, was probably Tenant

277
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:31.019
and Tate.

278
00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.460
And even then, I don't think there's an, a whole episode that's

279
00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:38.820
based around the same thing of, it's just these 2 making jokes for

280
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:42.659
45 minutes and we'll figure out, we'll figure out the plot

281
00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:43.080
otherwise.

282
00:16:43.139 --> 00:16:46.139
It's just kind of peppered here and there.

283
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.559
There's probably a reason for that because this is all a little

284
00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:51.360
thin, isn't it?

285
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.379
I feel I feel like I'm probably the dissenting voice in this

286
00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:58.799
episode because I thought this was incredibly mundane to watch.

287
00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:04.259
And as a lead instead of finale, just incredibly forgettable and

288
00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:06.359
didn't get me excited for what was coming.

289
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:10.079
Whereas I think the 3 of you had a much more positive reaction to

290
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:10.619
this than me.

291
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.359
I think that one of the advantages of Doctor Who going to 45

292
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:19.259
minute episodes is that we don't have to have a big adventure

293
00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.980
every week, and I'm always longing for that, and the classic

294
00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:26.700
series did it in things like Planet of Fire or Morden Undead, where

295
00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:30.660
it is just sort of 4 episodes of them sort of mucking about while

296
00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:33.480
some thin plot sort of takes place in the background.

297
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:39.539
And when Boomtown came along, and we discovered that Doctor Who

298
00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:45.660
can do that, and I think Boomtown is one of the unsung heroes of

299
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:50.579
series one, I think it's a spectacular episode, and it's as thin

300
00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:51.420
as anything.

301
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.980
I mean, it's ridiculous, but it's fun and it's nice to hang out

302
00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:56.579
with those people.

303
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:58.619
You say it's thin.

304
00:17:58.740 --> 00:18:02.220
But I'd say it's got a bit of substance to it, Boomtown.

305
00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:08.099
It does have that conversation about the death penalty and yeah, a

306
00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:08.880
couple of conversations.

307
00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:11.279
And yeah, the whole thing about the doctor.

308
00:18:11.339 --> 00:18:13.619
Sorry, we're talking about a completely different episode now.

309
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:14.759
Sorry to derail this.

310
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:19.140
The doctor dealing with like consequences of previous adventures.

311
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:20.640
It kind of leads into all of that.

312
00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:24.000
And I think that's a bit more substantial and a bit more

313
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:25.980
interesting than what's happening here.

314
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.740
Yeah, I mean, you've got Russell T. Davis riding boom down.

315
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.480
We don't got quiet.

316
00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:36.720
But I think that being entertaining is a thing that a Doctor Who

317
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.079
story can do and should certainly try to do.

318
00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:41.700
And sometimes that's enough.

319
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.279
And I mean, there are plenty of times when Doctor Who doesn't even

320
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:45.240
reach that level.

321
00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:48.539
I think half of my, my problem here was.

322
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:51.900
You remember I said to you about 20 times in the lodger that I

323
00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:53.220
found it incredible relatable?

324
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.279
In fact, I think you called that episode relatable, yeah?

325
00:18:56.339 --> 00:18:59.460
Well, I used to work in a department store, right?

326
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:00.960
And it's really dreary.

327
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:06.539
And so, and so this was the most relatable Doctor Who episode.

328
00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:10.859
The cybermen are handing, they're hanging out in a department

329
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:11.460
store.

330
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:13.980
Like, man, they've fallen low, haven't they?

331
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:15.119
They've fallen on tough times.

332
00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:16.980
It's interesting.

333
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.740
Well, just with on that thing about substance.

334
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.339
One of the things I found very strange about this episode is that

335
00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:28.619
it feels very light and very thin, but I think it does tap into

336
00:19:28.619 --> 00:19:33.180
some of the things that Moffat, Stephen Moffat does come back to

337
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:36.660
as a writer, which is the theme of parenthood.

338
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.859
You know, that's part of the story of coupling, isn't it?

339
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.480
Isn't that towards the end.

340
00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:45.720
It's that, so, and again, which is why I feel it's, again, like

341
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.539
with the lodger, which felt like a, you know, a sitcom episode

342
00:19:48.539 --> 00:19:52.079
that was outsourced to someone else, I find it weird that an

343
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.019
episode that is about fatherhood, which is a prime concern of

344
00:19:55.019 --> 00:19:57.900
Stephen Moffats, is, again, outsourced to another writer.

345
00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.839
I feel we made that exact point in the logic, didn't we?

346
00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:01.259
Yeah, yeah.

347
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:04.859
How is Super Moffatt not writing this episode, it seems tailor

348
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:05.819
made for him?

349
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:10.140
I suppose it's because Stephen Moffat has done that already, you

350
00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:14.460
know, and he does bring the that sensibility to Doctor Who, but

351
00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:18.599
he's also a writer who, and he said this himself, he doesn't like

352
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.380
doing the same thing over and over and over again, and compared to

353
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:26.940
Russell, he does reinvent the series a lot more often.

354
00:20:27.059 --> 00:20:30.180
I was actually thinking about that. this week in regards to queer

355
00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:33.480
representation in the Stephen Moffatt series, and of course

356
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:35.160
there's basically none in series 5.

357
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:40.019
Then series 6, we've got 2 unnamed gay characters who are killed.

358
00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:42.420
Let's not talk about that, okay?

359
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:43.859
Talk about those 2 characters.

360
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.339
Then Clara is sort of nebulously bisexual.

361
00:20:47.460 --> 00:20:52.319
But then you get Bill, who is a fully formed queer character who

362
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.740
has a queer romance and that romance ends up saving the day.

363
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:57.000
And that's the thing.

364
00:20:57.059 --> 00:20:59.279
Stephen Moffat is constantly going, okay, what can we do that's

365
00:20:59.279 --> 00:20:59.880
new and different?

366
00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:04.140
So perhaps he didn't do this sort of sitcom aspect so he could get

367
00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:04.980
a fresh take on it?

368
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.500
But it ends up being the same story as last year?

369
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:08.460
Yeah.

370
00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:14.099
One of the earliest notes I wrote down was, this feels like the

371
00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:18.779
joke from a good man goes to war where Rory holds his baby for the

372
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:19.140
1st time.

373
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.259
Oh my god, I thought I was going to be totally cool and then

374
00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.619
starts crying and it feels like that joke stretched out for 45

375
00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:26.460
minutes.

376
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:32.460
I mean, I think the interesting thing is, and perhaps it's a bit

377
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:39.000
lazy, actually, is that last year, our overall plot was Amy

378
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.599
wondering what to do with her relationship with Rory.

379
00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:43.920
Should she get married?

380
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:48.480
And she escapes the night before her wedding in order to go off

381
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:49.740
with her imaginary friend.

382
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:56.279
And then James Corden is having the same dilemma in the lodger.

383
00:21:56.339 --> 00:22:01.319
And then this year, both of the writers go immediately to

384
00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:02.039
parenthood.

385
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:04.980
It's like that's the next thing that we think of.

386
00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:11.220
And so Amy's pregnant in the arc story and has a child and Craig

387
00:22:11.220 --> 00:22:13.019
and Sophie have a child as well.

388
00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:18.119
And so it seems to be just kind of the most obvious next thing to

389
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:18.599
do.

390
00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:24.359
And I don't think it's deliberately shadowing the main series 6

391
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:24.900
plot.

392
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:27.900
I just think it is kind of like here's where we go next.

393
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:33.000
Well, the irony in this episode of having James Corden's character

394
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.680
come back and deal with the fallout of being a father when in the

395
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.940
series writ large, they completely fudge that with Amy Bonds.

396
00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:44.700
They absolutely should be doing this episode with Amy.

397
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:49.799
So when this series went out, I had a physical subscription to

398
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.140
Doctor Who magazine, I only get it digitally now because of

399
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:57.420
postage, but the issue that came out, I think, in the week before

400
00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:04.259
a good man goes to war, the cover was Amy, a Madame Caverian, with

401
00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:06.299
the title birth shock.

402
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:07.559
Oh, my God.

403
00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:10.680
Yikes.

404
00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:14.880
And in his production notes, and I may not get this verbatim, but

405
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:19.920
Stephen Moffat says, yes, Amy and Rory are having a baby because

406
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:24.180
you can get married, but having a baby is the next level, and I

407
00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:26.519
think he may even use the words, you're not really married until

408
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:27.240
you have a baby.

409
00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:32.460
Me, gay, no interest in having children.

410
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:35.039
I went, that seems a bit insensitive.

411
00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:41.579
Um, and it is interesting how much this series focusses on

412
00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:45.000
parenthood, particularly fatherhood because we have Captain

413
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:45.720
Avery.

414
00:23:45.779 --> 00:23:50.460
We have Alex in Night Terrors, and we have Craig here.

415
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.519
Now, of course, you've got Amy and Rory as well, but as you say

416
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.759
Joe, they kind of drop the ball on that and then don't actually

417
00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:58.980
deal with Amy and Rory having to bring up a child.

418
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.519
And that's kind of treated as a triumph at the end of the year

419
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:08.519
whereas you then have 3 stories which are about people who doubt

420
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.900
their ability as parents really stepping up and stepping into the

421
00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:13.440
role.

422
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.720
And I am someone who's quite critical of this series, it is my

423
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:23.339
least favourite of the entire new series because of the plotter.

424
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:28.619
And curse of the black spot is in my bottom 5 episodes, but I do

425
00:24:28.619 --> 00:24:29.160
think.

426
00:24:30.059 --> 00:24:33.839
The character of Avery, the character of Alex and the character of

427
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.980
Craig actually present parenthood in a really positive light in

428
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:38.640
Doctor Who.

429
00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:39.180
Yeah.

430
00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:42.299
And there's a real drama there in real arcs.

431
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:45.180
And it's funny, like, as I say, I have no interest in becoming a

432
00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:47.460
father myself, but I watch that and I go, that's actually really

433
00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:48.299
heartwarming.

434
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:54.059
Yeah, and I think in this particular instance, what closing time

435
00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:56.819
is about relating to parenthood?

436
00:24:56.819 --> 00:25:00.660
It's about the instincts of parenthood, and the instincts of

437
00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:01.440
fatherhood.

438
00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:05.400
It's a story about men who are terrified about being dads, and

439
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.099
more specifically about being inadequate and their own

440
00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:10.920
inadequacies making them redundant as fathers.

441
00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:12.900
You know, Craig is early on.

442
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:15.900
I've read the books, you know, where are the off switches?

443
00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:19.799
And he's like stressed out the entire time that, you know, he

444
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:21.539
can't get Alfie to sleep.

445
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.660
Um, he doesn't understand his own child.

446
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:29.700
But for all of Craig's lack of instinct and his inability to be

447
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:32.400
responsive to what Alfie needs.

448
00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:36.720
All that is left in his brain, even when the cybermen cleans it of

449
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.900
emotion, is this instinct, this love for his child.

450
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:43.740
And that's what saves the day and confirms he is a good father.

451
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:48.660
Yeah, I wondered what the cybermen were doing given that they're

452
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:55.859
kind of famously emotionless and it didn't seem to be Craig's

453
00:25:55.859 --> 00:25:57.839
problem that he didn't love Alfie.

454
00:25:57.900 --> 00:25:59.279
That didn't seem to be the problem.

455
00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:01.859
And it is exactly what you identify, Jack.

456
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:03.359
It's, I have no instincts.

457
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:04.500
I have no instincts.

458
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:09.240
And I guess what's being said here, and I don't know whether it's

459
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:13.980
that good a message, but whatever, is that your instincts don't

460
00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:14.519
matter.

461
00:26:14.579 --> 00:26:19.859
The only thing that matters is that you love your son.

462
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:26.400
And so the reason the cybermen are there is because they're

463
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:32.880
vulnerable to emotion and because we need Craig's decision to kind

464
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:38.220
of resolve the plot, because Craig is realising that his love for

465
00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:42.119
his son is enough and that's all that matters, and that

466
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.599
incidentally blows up this particular kind of alien that we have

467
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:50.339
here, just as last year, we're set up in this sort of complicated

468
00:26:50.339 --> 00:26:54.720
and utterly ridiculous situation where Craig's declaration of love

469
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:58.680
for Sophie makes the spaceship explode, you know.

470
00:26:58.740 --> 00:27:02.640
This is why he couldn't have been a main companion because the

471
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:04.440
resolution would be every week.

472
00:27:04.500 --> 00:27:08.700
Craig identifying a different reason why he loves something.

473
00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:12.839
He would be he would be more powerful than bad wolf.

474
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:25.380
The moment itself, though, is so agonising when the helmet is

475
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:28.140
coming over him and he's like, and he makes that choice.

476
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:33.240
I feel like over the years, the cybermen's weaknesses have gotten

477
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.200
more extreme and more ridiculous, but James Corden deciding to

478
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.059
have a go, you know, of being a parent.

479
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:42.779
That's just the Nadir of side of their weaknesses.

480
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.960
I don't know. nail polish probably beats it out.

481
00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:47.819
Gold arrows.

482
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:50.039
I mean, there's been a few, isn't there?

483
00:27:50.099 --> 00:27:55.619
I will say, though, in the new series till this point, emotion is

484
00:27:55.619 --> 00:27:56.700
their main weakness.

485
00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:59.039
Like we don't have gold as a weakness yet.

486
00:27:59.099 --> 00:28:00.660
We don't have radiation as a weakness.

487
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.640
We don't have nail polish remover as weakness.

488
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:08.220
The original script did have the use of gold.

489
00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:12.000
Now, I don't think it's something that really happens here in

490
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.099
Australia, but Joe and Jack, you're going to know what I'm talking

491
00:28:14.099 --> 00:28:14.279
about.

492
00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:17.339
There would have been a scene where Craig explained there was a

493
00:28:17.339 --> 00:28:20.279
gold necklace in an envelope because Sophie was going to send it

494
00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:21.779
into a cash for gold website.

495
00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:24.180
Yeah.

496
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:27.660
And so the doctor would throw that at the cyberbat.

497
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.720
And Stephen Moffatt basically just came back and said, I think we

498
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:34.319
can, you know, we've got 2 very physical actors who do physical

499
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:34.859
comedy.

500
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:38.099
Let's make it a fight scene with the cyberback.

501
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:38.940
Yeah.

502
00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:44.819
Now, I totally understand, Joe, why you find that scene to be

503
00:28:44.819 --> 00:28:49.079
agonising, and I think anytime the solution is love, that's going

504
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:50.640
to be a marmite solution for people.

505
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:54.960
I'm not saying that you can't lean into the idea that, you know

506
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.240
emotion, they're susceptible to emotions.

507
00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:00.900
Do you remember in the age of steel, where the doctor turns off

508
00:29:00.900 --> 00:29:04.019
the thing, and then you have that shot of one cyberman, like

509
00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:05.519
looking in a mirror, screaming.

510
00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:07.920
Like it can be really effective.

511
00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:10.859
I just think it's just so melodramatic.

512
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:12.180
It's so overdone in this.

513
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:16.740
But I mean, at this point, the cybermen are kind of like buffy

514
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:20.279
monsters, you know, the whole thing is we don't really care.

515
00:29:20.339 --> 00:29:23.940
The thing that we care about isn't the alien invasion at all.

516
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:28.799
It is that Craig steps up and becomes a good parent, that he gains

517
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.660
Stormageddon's approval, I think.

518
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:31.559
Yeah.

519
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:33.900
It's just like Rose, isn't it?

520
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.019
Rose was very much, you know, not about the autumns.

521
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:38.519
It was about Rose's journey.

522
00:29:38.579 --> 00:29:40.740
And, you know, bizarrely enough.

523
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:43.440
They're both state department stores as well. strangers.

524
00:29:43.500 --> 00:29:48.480
Well, one of the original concepts to set this story in was

525
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.559
actually a police station.

526
00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:53.339
And the idea is they could use sort of an old police station and

527
00:29:53.339 --> 00:29:53.880
that sort of thing.

528
00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:56.160
But during the writing process.

529
00:29:56.220 --> 00:30:00.539
It's just like, how how do you justify the doctor and Craig going

530
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:02.099
back and forth to a police station?

531
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:05.160
And so a department store was decided upon instead.

532
00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:09.539
But the big starting point for this episode was, let's do a

533
00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:12.720
sidemen story like in the 60s, where you barely see them.

534
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:16.380
They're in the shadows and they're just taking people.

535
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:20.279
You know, so sort of like in the invasion or the moon base.

536
00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:25.980
Um, and I'm going to pin my colours to the mast here.

537
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:32.460
Oh, this is probably my 2nd or 3rd favourite new series, Sidemen

538
00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:32.819
Story.

539
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:33.900
Okay.

540
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:36.240
And in my top five...

541
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.140
Because of the, because of the way it uses the cybermen.

542
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:44.579
And I think, obviously, world enough and time beats it, knocks

543
00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:46.319
down the park, knocks almost everything out of the park.

544
00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:50.099
The other new series story it's competing with for me is the

545
00:30:50.099 --> 00:30:53.160
haunting of Villa Diodati, which does the same thing of keeping a

546
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.279
shard in the shadows and making him a sinister force.

547
00:30:56.339 --> 00:31:01.440
Wouldn't you say that a Shardin deodarti, though, was way more

548
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:03.359
effective than the Simon in this?

549
00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:07.019
But there's one minute, deliberately, they're supposed to be a bit

550
00:31:07.019 --> 00:31:08.099
pathetic, aren't they?

551
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.680
and a bit useless and gathering their forces.

552
00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:12.779
But yet still deadly.

553
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:15.119
And that's the thing, you never doubt a shard is deadly.

554
00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:17.880
But you look at these side men and go, oh, they're a bit rubbish.

555
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:19.859
Yeah, but they're still going to send a side map after you with

556
00:31:19.859 --> 00:31:21.359
like a Chihuahua jaw or something.

557
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:27.720
May I very politely offer a counter argument?

558
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:37.259
Because I thought the cyberman's presence in this story was a real

559
00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:39.240
fundamental problem with it.

560
00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:42.480
Definitely see where you're coming from.

561
00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:45.059
But it got into a lot of different things for me.

562
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.160
Sorry, I am going to be ranting about this for a little bit.

563
00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:50.220
I will speed through my thoughts as quickly as possible.

564
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:55.500
So what made the lodger work so well is that the sci-fi plot was

565
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:57.359
deliberately unimportant?

566
00:31:57.420 --> 00:32:01.380
That way it could comfortably fall into the background of the Dr

567
00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:04.019
and Craig's story without feeling like a problem.

568
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.140
Even when Meglos was the villain in the lodger.

569
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.319
The joke was he was so forgettable, a villain, we didn't need to

570
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:11.759
waste any time on him.

571
00:32:11.819 --> 00:32:15.059
Here, the villains are the cybermen.

572
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.220
Doctor Who's 2nd most recognisable villain.

573
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:17.819
Can I say that?

574
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:19.200
Yeah, definitely.

575
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:19.859
Okay.

576
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:24.900
And I think they naturally draw the audience's attention just by

577
00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:27.000
the gravity of their significance.

578
00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:31.319
But not only that, but this is the 1st story in Matt Smith's era

579
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:34.619
where they are technically the main villain of the episode.

580
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:38.519
So there is this additional expectation that is built into this

581
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.099
being the 1st proper Smith Cyberman showdown.

582
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:45.660
However, as in the lodger, the expectation is to keep the monsters

583
00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:49.380
in the background, or in this case, keep them in, you know, I

584
00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:54.000
guess the changing room, which is, which is fine until you create

585
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:57.119
or use a monster whose appearance generates interest and

586
00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:01.019
expectation, which also risks leaving the audience feeling like

587
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:02.460
they were a bit of a waste.

588
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:07.200
And I think that tension tugs at or at worst undercuts the

589
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.680
episodes, other priorities with Craig and the doctor, which are

590
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:14.519
absolutely the correct priorities, but you need a monster that the

591
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.640
audience is willing to see relegated to the sidelines in service

592
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:18.480
of something else.

593
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:22.859
And even then using the cybermen, the way they are deployed feels

594
00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:27.480
like a conscious, if not deliberate acknowledgement that they are

595
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:32.099
the runners-up to the Daleks, we all cut.

596
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:36.299
It was established in Army of Ghost in Doomsday, wasn't it?

597
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:38.039
They are definitely 2nd place to the die.

598
00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:39.900
It was established in the 60s.

599
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:48.599
I think, though. that one way that you can avoid spending time on

600
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:52.799
the science fiction plot is to make it kind of thin to non

601
00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:53.880
existent like in the lodger.

602
00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:57.299
But another way that you can do it is just say, oh, and it's

603
00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:00.240
Cyberman, and we don't need to spend any time explaining it.

604
00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:05.279
We don't need, like, to expend any energy, trying to work out who

605
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.200
they are or what they're up to.

606
00:34:07.259 --> 00:34:09.960
They're cybermen doing cybermen things.

607
00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:11.820
And so that saves us time.

608
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.900
And I also think that this is a cyberman story in the sense that

609
00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:18.780
the Pandorica opens is a cyberman story.

610
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:24.059
I don't think that Moffatt's Doctor Who is comfortable with the

611
00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:29.400
Dalek story or the Cyberman story as a thing at all.

612
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:36.420
And so the Cyberman here are merely here to be the thing to be the

613
00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:40.260
kind of science fiction plot that doesn't need any explanation.

614
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:45.900
And I also don't think that the cybermen, with the kind of normal

615
00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:50.460
Doctor Who audience, I don't think the cybermen are a massive

616
00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:50.880
event.

617
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:55.800
I think that there's some recognisable Doctor Who stuff that

618
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.219
appears in Doctor Who stories and that's their role here.

619
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:03.179
Like, this is the 1st time, for instance, that the cybermen don't

620
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:07.800
fit into the continuity that's established by Russell, the cyber

621
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:08.099
side.

622
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:12.119
Cyberman, who are created by John Lumic in Rise of the Cyberman

623
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:17.099
and even when they appear in the next doctor, it's explained how

624
00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:19.260
they got there and came back in time.

625
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:21.300
These cybermen have been here for 1000s of years.

626
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:22.500
How is that even possible?

627
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.840
And the answer is that we don't care.

628
00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:26.639
You know, we just don't care.

629
00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:29.519
And we're not spending any time.

630
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:30.840
That's right.

631
00:35:30.900 --> 00:35:36.420
We're not spending any time on why they're here or what they're

632
00:35:36.420 --> 00:35:42.059
for because they are as thin as the emergency killing people

633
00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:43.679
hologram from the lodger.

634
00:35:43.739 --> 00:35:46.139
Well, you say they're not an event.

635
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:49.920
I do think just bunging them into the season is going to draw in

636
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:50.699
some more viewers.

637
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:52.920
I don't know what the ratings were for this one, but it absolutely

638
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.980
is gonna bring some people that wouldn't normally watch Doctor Who

639
00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:56.219
in.

640
00:35:56.280 --> 00:36:01.019
Jack, I've got a counterargument to your counteroffer because...

641
00:36:01.019 --> 00:36:06.059
I agree with you and I think the side men are absolutely dreary in

642
00:36:06.059 --> 00:36:08.519
this episode and completely forgettable.

643
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:11.760
If I was having to like name Sidemen episode, I would never, ever

644
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:14.099
think to mention closing time.

645
00:36:14.219 --> 00:36:21.539
However, it does feature the best ever cyber map scene, which is

646
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:24.480
extraordinarily good and the highlight of the episode.

647
00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:27.480
I mean, those scary, bloody teeth.

648
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:29.880
It's so funny and so scary.

649
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:31.619
I thought that scene was excellent.

650
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:36.719
Yeah, it's hilarious and it's terrifying at the same time.

651
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.599
But why did they jettison them?

652
00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:42.900
Like when they're back next year, the cybermats are out and the

653
00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:44.159
cybermites are in.

654
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:48.059
And I just, I would have loved to have seen more of these side

655
00:36:48.059 --> 00:36:48.360
mats.

656
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:49.260
They had potential.

657
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:50.340
Why didn't they?

658
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.519
This is sitting in a department store, in a toy store.

659
00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:57.360
Why didn't they have those cyber mats being sold?

660
00:36:57.420 --> 00:37:01.500
And then they're all activated at once and those horrible nasty

661
00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:03.900
teeth come out and lots of children are murdered around the

662
00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:04.199
world.

663
00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:05.340
That would be an amazing story.

664
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:06.719
Way better than this.

665
00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:10.380
So this, I think, is a good opportunity to talk about the script

666
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:13.559
development. and where the title 3 Cybermen and the Baby comes

667
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:13.800
from.

668
00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:14.460
No.

669
00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:20.340
So originally, you know, you had the kind of similar premise of

670
00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:22.500
we're in a department store, people are going missing, et cetera

671
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:22.980
et cetera.

672
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:28.559
But people are going missing at a certain interval and it varies

673
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:31.679
according to the draft, sometimes at 77 years, sometimes at 64

674
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:32.699
years, et cetera.

675
00:37:33.179 --> 00:37:38.460
And it turns out what's happened is, Years and years and years ago

676
00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:42.539
the cybership crashed, and it sent out one scout and one cyber

677
00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:42.840
mat.

678
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:49.019
Some ancient Britons poured sort of quick setting lime onto the

679
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:52.199
side of that, and it ended up in a foundation stone under the

680
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:53.519
department store.

681
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:57.840
And without getting any data, the scout was just basically, okay

682
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:00.599
I'm just going to stand around and get data, and ended up

683
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.539
replacing bits of itself with organic components.

684
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:08.099
So the reason these people are going missing is he's recreating

685
00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:09.659
himself as a Frankenstein's monster.

686
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:17.099
But, This is the reason, also, it's set in Colchester, there was

687
00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:21.300
old King Briffer of Colchester, and there's a legend that he

688
00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:23.699
protected the town and protected the children of the town.

689
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:29.099
So when he is taken, into the body of the cyberman, he becomes a

690
00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:30.000
protector.

691
00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:35.820
And what happens is the doctor and Craig figure this out, Craig

692
00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:40.440
actually appeals to the part that is Briffer and also one of the

693
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:43.739
workers in the department store to kind of say, look, stop doing

694
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:43.980
this.

695
00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:49.559
And it actually goes well and the cyberman dies and everything's

696
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:49.860
fine.

697
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:53.280
And then Craig's like, but isn't there like a ship full of them?

698
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:57.960
And 3 cybermen appear, like full powered, et cetera, et cetera.

699
00:38:58.019 --> 00:38:59.519
Sounds amazing.

700
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:01.199
Why aren't we watching that instead?

701
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:05.460
Well, I think the reason was they wanted Craig sort of more

702
00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:09.179
integral to the solution, and it comes back to what you were

703
00:39:09.179 --> 00:39:13.260
saying earlier with, we've got the ending we want where Craig

704
00:39:13.260 --> 00:39:14.400
proves himself.

705
00:39:14.460 --> 00:39:16.500
How do we fit that?

706
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:17.760
How do we fit that in?

707
00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:20.099
And coming back to something you were saying, Jack, about.

708
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:24.360
It's okay to use Meglosk as a 2nd rate monster because we don't

709
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:25.500
care.

710
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:29.639
I was just thinking, what sort of monster could we use from the

711
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:31.980
past of Doctor Who that people wouldn't really care about?

712
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:35.219
And would still basically fulfil the same function.

713
00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:38.880
And like taking people on board to help them fly their

714
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:39.719
spaceships.

715
00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:44.820
And this could have been the return of the crotons. would be there

716
00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:45.360
for that.

717
00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:47.760
Imagine the protons in CGI.

718
00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:48.659
Oh wow.

719
00:39:49.260 --> 00:39:53.219
And you could still build it up like it was the site of that.

720
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:55.679
You know, you just have metallic hands coming out.

721
00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:56.940
You have a metallic voice.

722
00:39:57.420 --> 00:39:58.980
Do you what?

723
00:39:58.980 --> 00:39:59.760
Are we watching that?

724
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:00.539
It doesn't.

725
00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:01.260
That sounds incredible.

726
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:06.239
Do you just replace the cybernet with like a rolling crystal or

727
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:06.480
something?

728
00:40:06.780 --> 00:40:08.460
Why not?

729
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:09.239
Why?

730
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:10.079
Absolutely.

731
00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:10.440
Why not?

732
00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:14.159
And, you know, it occurs to me that, okay, the crotons aren't

733
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.260
particularly susceptible to emotion, but they're sort of high

734
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:17.219
brain low brain.

735
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:23.519
If they regard love as a low brain thing, That's how Craig

736
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:24.300
destroys them.

737
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.139
So it also gets away from the schmaltziness, if you like, of the

738
00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:29.039
power of love.

739
00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:32.099
And Craig could be saying, oh, it's because I love Alpha and the

740
00:40:32.099 --> 00:40:32.579
doctor.

741
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:35.519
Actually, it's because that emotion is far too simple and basic.

742
00:40:35.579 --> 00:40:36.719
Yeah, yeah, it's not.

743
00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:40.139
Yeah, imagine an army of protons over their heads spinning around

744
00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:42.119
going crazy and blowing up.

745
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:42.900
That would be incredible.

746
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:46.500
I do take your point, Brendan, about the way the cybermen are used

747
00:40:46.500 --> 00:40:49.679
here in the shadows because that's something we haven't seen in a

748
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:50.099
while.

749
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:53.460
And certainly these are the quietest side, but I think we've ever

750
00:40:53.460 --> 00:40:55.019
seen with their Zoom.

751
00:40:56.099 --> 00:40:59.699
So quiet you may not remember them being there at all.

752
00:41:00.659 --> 00:41:03.599
But then that's mission accomplished.

753
00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:04.619
Do you know what I mean?

754
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.920
That's exactly why they're there because they're an extremely low

755
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:09.420
effort science fiction point.

756
00:41:09.539 --> 00:41:10.079
I think.

757
00:41:10.139 --> 00:41:13.199
Moffat isn't interested in Doctor Who Monsters.

758
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:14.820
Look at what he does to the Son Torans.

759
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:17.760
He basically makes them unuseable. from here on in.

760
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:20.099
And the same with the Silurians.

761
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:25.500
You know, he is interested in those things as a source of Doctor

762
00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:29.579
Whoness, but isn't really interested in writing episodes about

763
00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:30.239
them.

764
00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:31.860
Yeah.

765
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.980
And I also wouldn't trade anything in the world for the

766
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:35.760
cybermats.

767
00:41:35.820 --> 00:41:38.820
The scene where Matt Smith jumps through the window and is

768
00:41:38.820 --> 00:41:42.900
fighting a cyberbat with I am the doctor playing is possibly one

769
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:44.940
of the funniest things I've ever seen.

770
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:46.800
Seriously enjoyable, isn't it?

771
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:51.539
Like, like Matt Smith does physical comedy, extra.

772
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.119
God, I'm saying very positive things about that.

773
00:41:54.179 --> 00:41:56.820
You've chosen 2 good episodes and I've noticed that you've chosen

774
00:41:56.820 --> 00:42:00.179
episodes where Amy Pond's ducked out as well. have lots to say

775
00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:00.539
about her.

776
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.559
But yeah, it's so funny in that scene. really, really good.

777
00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:08.880
And I feel like it's a sign of the show's confidence in itself.

778
00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:11.579
It's a bit like bringing the macro back in gridlock.

779
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:13.139
The show's confident enough in itself.

780
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:16.619
It's like, we can bring something a little silly back from the old

781
00:42:16.619 --> 00:42:22.320
show and be very happy to just put it on screen and not be self

782
00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:22.320
conscious.

783
00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:25.320
You know, and have lines like, it's not a rat.

784
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:26.639
It's a cyber mat.

785
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:33.420
Lovely to have that back. talking about Matt Smith.

786
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:39.179
I think I think my favourite Matt Smith scene is in this episode

787
00:42:39.179 --> 00:42:42.059
and that's a big thing to say over those 3 years, because he gets

788
00:42:42.059 --> 00:42:43.260
a lot of moments, doesn't he?

789
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:46.679
But, you know, I don't really like it when he's waving his hands

790
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:49.920
around a solid screwdriver and he's screaming about jelly and ice

791
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:51.900
cream and lemonade taps and things like that.

792
00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:53.699
I felt like all very extreme.

793
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:58.980
But the scene with the baby, when he puts the stars on the wall.

794
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.280
I always feel he does his best work with children and this is like

795
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:05.280
the ultimate with children the scene for Matt Smith.

796
00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:06.659
Isn't that scene just gorgeous?

797
00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:08.400
Yeah.

798
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:11.519
I love too, that it's initially negative.

799
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:15.599
Like he initially says you've got all these things ahead of you

800
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:20.099
mortgages and, you know, a persistent sense of spiritual emptiness

801
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:21.000
or something like that.

802
00:43:21.059 --> 00:43:25.440
And then and then he corrects himself and then talks about what

803
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:26.820
his life has been like.

804
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:31.019
And because he's about to die, because they're at opposite ends of

805
00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:33.059
their lives, Alfie and the doctor.

806
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:38.639
And it is one of those things where Matt's doctor is rarely

807
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:43.139
visibly sorry for himself, but he is aware that he's going.

808
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:47.519
And I just think that scene is fantastically great.

809
00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:50.940
And that baby is an incredible actor.

810
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:55.500
What about the, um, when when Matt shushes him in that very early

811
00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:59.280
scene and he just reacts immediately and quietens down.

812
00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:03.900
They must have like had the camera on that baby for like 6 hours

813
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:06.119
in order to find their reaction.

814
00:44:06.179 --> 00:44:09.900
When you think of all the children in the Stephen Moffatt era, and

815
00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:11.039
there are lots of them.

816
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:14.219
And I put them under the umbrella term of the brood of the damned

817
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:16.739
because a lot of them are terrible actors.

818
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.179
Sorry, Jack, I know you don't like that.

819
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:20.760
And, um, and just upon it.

820
00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:21.900
The baby, man.

821
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:22.920
The baby.

822
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:25.199
Imagine Arcy, don't even go there.

823
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:28.320
But that baby, what a great actor.

824
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:29.400
It was amazing.

825
00:44:30.059 --> 00:44:36.599
But I also, I also think that the way the doctor works so well

826
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:41.039
with Alfie feeds into what the story is saying about fatherhood

827
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:46.440
because, you know, Sophie is Alfie's mother and she's no longer

828
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:52.619
there and Craig feels incompetent, but also the doctor works so

829
00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:55.860
well opposite a child because he is a children's character.

830
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:59.579
So, of course, he is naturally responsive.

831
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:02.159
That's why he speaks baby, essentially.

832
00:45:02.219 --> 00:45:04.980
Maybe I'm reading a bit too much depth into that one, but it

833
00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:05.639
sounded nice.

834
00:45:06.179 --> 00:45:08.820
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you.

835
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:11.460
Alfie was played by 3 babies.

836
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:15.780
Incredible actors, yeah.

837
00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:20.400
Isabel James, Josie James, and Ellis Pomeroy.

838
00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:25.320
And if anyone wants to feel old, they'll all be about 10 now.

839
00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:29.519
Thanks, Brendan.

840
00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:32.519
But yeah, Matt Smith is...

841
00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:36.480
He brings the melancholy here.

842
00:45:36.539 --> 00:45:40.980
And much like Sylvester McCoy, that seems to be something he is

843
00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:44.340
very conscious of as an actor in his performance in that, you know

844
00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:47.460
the doctor wants to be happy and wants to have fun, but there is

845
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:50.280
always this pervasive melancholy underneath.

846
00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:55.320
There's a bit that's cut from this episode, which, interestingly, I

847
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:59.880
think, is pretty much reworked for the time of the doctor, and I'm

848
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:00.900
going to read to you, if I may.

849
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:05.639
So basically, this is the doctor discovering the tunnel down to

850
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:08.280
the cyberman spaceship, and he grabs the cyberman out of his

851
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:09.360
pocket and starts talking to it.

852
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:14.099
From their spaceship, which any reasonable person, bitey, would

853
00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:17.699
assume was up in space, like most spaceships, hence the name

854
00:46:17.699 --> 00:46:22.500
spaceship, and not, in fact, actually under the shop all along.

855
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:24.539
Nothing to say?

856
00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:28.019
No, anyone would have made the same mistake, doctor, don't blame

857
00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:28.260
yourself.

858
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:30.719
Worst companion ever.

859
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:35.820
Impression is amazing, by the way.

860
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:38.639
Well, I'm jealous of Jack Soldi, you see.

861
00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:44.579
He has a line that he says to the baby, which I just thought was

862
00:46:44.579 --> 00:46:48.659
so moving. and he says, save the tears for later, boyo.

863
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:51.000
Oh, it's just so cute.

864
00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:51.599
I love it.

865
00:46:51.659 --> 00:46:53.219
It's heart wrenching.

866
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:53.880
Yeah.

867
00:46:53.940 --> 00:46:56.219
It sort of feeds into a moment.

868
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.400
I really hate from next week's episode, but is totally in keeping

869
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.639
with the character where River explains how they're trying to save

870
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:05.280
him and he turns around and says, you embarrass me.

871
00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:08.699
And it's just like, that kind of fury.

872
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:11.219
You see, you see that beneath the surface here.

873
00:47:11.219 --> 00:47:14.400
It's just a tiny bit and it pulls himself back, even though that's

874
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.000
a bit I don't like.

875
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:16.559
It a quality of the actor, which is amazing.

876
00:47:16.739 --> 00:47:21.900
When I graduated university, I gave the valedictorian speech for

877
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:26.820
my college, and um, I really, I struggled very hard to find a

878
00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:30.239
theme that could summarise all these wonderful years I'd had there

879
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:32.699
because you didn't want to make it too morkish.

880
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:35.099
You didn't want to make it too funny.

881
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:39.300
And the only thing I could settle on was, I think one of the final

882
00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:42.539
lines I put in it was, I hope you all had as much fun as I did.

883
00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:45.300
Um, so, so hearing, yeah.

884
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.500
Yeah, so yeah, so when I heard Matt Smith telling a baby, I hope

885
00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:52.079
you had as much fun as I did, it really got to me.

886
00:47:52.139 --> 00:47:56.219
I feel incredibly mundane, you know, you saying, you know, the

887
00:47:56.219 --> 00:47:58.739
memory you're leaning into is you gave the valedictorian speech

888
00:47:58.739 --> 00:48:01.559
and the memory I lent in 2 years, I worked in a department store.

889
00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:03.000
Honestly.

890
00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:06.719
I would actually like to talk about the department store

891
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:09.000
characters a bit because I think they're a big girl.

892
00:48:09.059 --> 00:48:11.460
I think they're a big success in that.

893
00:48:11.460 --> 00:48:12.539
Linda Barron.

894
00:48:12.659 --> 00:48:17.219
You get Linda Barron in to play this gossipy perfume counter

895
00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:17.699
woman.

896
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:19.800
She's so great.

897
00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:23.579
And she's so supportive of Craig and the doctor's relationship.

898
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:25.320
It's very sad.

899
00:48:25.380 --> 00:48:26.699
Not enough of her, though, isn't it?

900
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:28.739
I feel like she should have had a bigger role.

901
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.980
Like, when you think of her as, oh, my word.

902
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:33.840
Thank you very much in environment.

903
00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:38.760
Part of what makes her and the other department store characters

904
00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:41.400
so successful is they don't realise they're in a Doctor Who

905
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:41.760
story.

906
00:48:41.820 --> 00:48:42.659
Yeah.

907
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.739
Like you look at so many other stories where there's just

908
00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:49.739
incidental characters, and very often the writers sort of go out

909
00:48:49.739 --> 00:48:52.679
of their way to give them a sort of companion moment, a moment

910
00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:55.559
where they realise they're in something bigger than themselves, so

911
00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:56.340
they help the doctor.

912
00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:00.239
And here, that moment with Linda Barron, where the doctor's like

913
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:01.019
have you seen anything strange?

914
00:49:01.019 --> 00:49:04.679
And she's like, well, at the office, Christmas.

915
00:49:04.739 --> 00:49:08.699
They just totally refuse to be part of this alien invasion

916
00:49:08.699 --> 00:49:09.239
plotline.

917
00:49:09.300 --> 00:49:09.780
Thank you very much.

918
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:13.139
You know, they've got they've got their day off to think about, you

919
00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:15.659
know, Paul Kelly not getting the day off because Shona's been

920
00:49:15.659 --> 00:49:16.800
taken by a Cyberman.

921
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:19.019
Um, you know, George.

922
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:21.300
Those people are so well drawn, you know, when I say words in the

923
00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:23.519
department shop, those people were absolutely working there.

924
00:49:23.579 --> 00:49:28.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome. yeah And you know, you've got George

925
00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:30.840
the security guard, who, of course, when we 1st see him, he's, you

926
00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:31.739
know, big and gruff.

927
00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:32.340
He's imposing.

928
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:33.000
He going to mess about.

929
00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:36.539
And then the 2nd he sees the doctor, huge smile on his face and, oh

930
00:49:36.539 --> 00:49:39.539
my god, my friend's here, how lovely, sort of thing, you know?

931
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:41.579
And then of course, he's horribly murdered.

932
00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:48.300
In fact, upsettingly, the 2 people that we see killed are the 2

933
00:49:48.300 --> 00:49:52.800
black employees of the department store.

934
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:57.659
And I think that's a bit of a problem.

935
00:49:57.780 --> 00:50:02.579
And I think when this writer's final script comes out, there's all

936
00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:07.380
kinds of inadvertent colourblind casting which spoils it a little

937
00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:07.920
bit as well.

938
00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:09.659
It is the cast, you know, isn't it?

939
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:11.099
Obviously, it's not deliberating.

940
00:50:11.099 --> 00:50:12.059
Yeah, it's not the writing.

941
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:13.860
No, no, no. not the writing.

942
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:16.320
It is the casting, but it's something that I think people need to

943
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:17.519
be a bit more careful about.

944
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:22.320
And it is a bit of a problem, I think.

945
00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:28.800
I will say that in the script, only Shona is specified as being

946
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:34.260
black, George wasn't, there was also another actor who played a

947
00:50:34.260 --> 00:50:36.119
warehouse man who was also taken.

948
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:36.960
Oh, okay.

949
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:40.739
So Ian Hilditch, who was to play that warehouse worker, is a white

950
00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:41.400
actor.

951
00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:45.480
So unfortunately cutting him does lead to that unfortunate thing

952
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:49.079
of the 2 people we see killed on screen are both people of

953
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:49.440
colour.

954
00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:53.340
And it will become a bigger problem in the caretaker.

955
00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:10.559
So, it's interesting, there's all this stuff about cybermen and

956
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:16.679
fatherhood and all this other stuff, and the main plotline of the

957
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:22.679
series, which is Amy Rory and River, they're kind of cameo tacked

958
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:24.840
on additions to the rest of this story.

959
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:31.500
And I suppose Amy and Rory have a bit more of a thematic resonance

960
00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:32.159
in this story.

961
00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:36.179
But by the time you get to the closing, the closing scene, it's a

962
00:51:36.179 --> 00:51:38.579
bit more grafted on.

963
00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:39.420
I suppose.

964
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:46.139
So that scene with Amy and Rory, I think, is also kind of

965
00:51:46.139 --> 00:51:52.199
reminding us and maybe reminding the doctor of why he left them

966
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:56.280
behind because the doctor actually regrets staying to help Craig

967
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:57.059
at some point.

968
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:01.619
Do you remember that where he says, I'm a vain and selfish man?

969
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:06.599
And I sort of show off and put my friends in danger.

970
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:11.519
And he made the decision to stop doing that with Amy and Rory

971
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.739
after the God complex.

972
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:18.659
And now he's finding himself unable to break the habit and doing

973
00:52:18.659 --> 00:52:21.599
it again with Craig.

974
00:52:21.659 --> 00:52:25.619
And so I think that there's a whole sort of thing working up

975
00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:29.340
towards him making the decision to, like I'm going to go, like

976
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:31.019
it's time for me to leave.

977
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:37.679
And that obviously leads to the final scene, doesn't it?

978
00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:44.460
Because we see river leaving to go to Lake Silencio just after we

979
00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:48.659
see the doctor leaving to go and they'll be confronting each other

980
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:49.500
sort of quite soon.

981
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:52.019
How do we feel that scene goes?

982
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:56.099
Well, is there an expectation there that people have watched the

983
00:52:56.099 --> 00:52:56.639
whole season?

984
00:52:56.699 --> 00:52:59.400
Because if the expectation is there that people are just watching

985
00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:03.239
this episode, then that scene is just so weird at the end of this

986
00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:03.599
episode.

987
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:06.840
If that is the case, though, and they've just tuned in.

988
00:53:06.900 --> 00:53:09.719
It's a really good way to get them to tune in next week and also

989
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:13.500
to jump on iPlayer and and see what they've missed.

990
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:17.760
Imagine you hadn't seen any of this season, and the end, you've

991
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:19.079
been, well, what the hell was that about?

992
00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:23.820
But I mean, that's true of any serialised media, and this season

993
00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:26.579
is more serialised than Doctor Who has ever been.

994
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:31.139
The expectation is that if you're just dipping into an episode

995
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:33.719
there'll be enough there for you to enjoy, but there'll be bits

996
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:34.500
that you don't get.

997
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:38.639
You know, you could say the same thing about, say, the episode of

998
00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:42.420
Battlestar Galactica, where the final 5 here, Bob Dylan and meet

999
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:44.219
in that room, you know?

1000
00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:48.179
And if you hadn't seen any episode of the series before that, it

1001
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:49.739
will be like, oh, what is this?

1002
00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:52.619
But when you have seen everything, you're like, 0 my god, it means

1003
00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:55.800
these 5 people that we've just spent 4 seasons with asylons.

1004
00:53:55.860 --> 00:53:56.880
You know?

1005
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:00.719
Is it there, you're comparing, possibly, you know, one of the

1006
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:04.679
greatest moments. 2 series 6 of Doctor Who.

1007
00:54:04.739 --> 00:54:07.320
There is there is a gulf between the two.

1008
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:09.780
It's it's the same device.

1009
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:10.559
Okay?

1010
00:54:10.619 --> 00:54:16.019
I will compare it to something totally terrible for you in the 90s

1011
00:54:16.019 --> 00:54:16.380
right?

1012
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:19.500
There was a series called Team Knight Rider.

1013
00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:20.519
Wow.

1014
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:21.360
Okay.

1015
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:25.320
So it was a, it was a spinoff from Knight Rider, and it was a

1016
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:28.019
little bit Power Rangers in that there was like a team of 10

1017
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:30.000
people, all of whom had talking cars.

1018
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:35.699
And at the end of the 1st episode, one of them attempts to find

1019
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:39.780
out how the Knight Rider program started and finds a classified

1020
00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:44.340
file on Michael Knight, and she can't get into it, but she says

1021
00:54:44.340 --> 00:54:46.260
but I have the highest clearance.

1022
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:48.420
Shock.

1023
00:54:48.539 --> 00:54:51.360
And it's like, okay, well, that's clearly there to make you watch

1024
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:53.760
the rest and find out who this Michael Knight person is.

1025
00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:54.780
I didn't.

1026
00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:57.539
And I think a lot of people didn't.

1027
00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:00.599
Why am I hearing about this for the 1st time?

1028
00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:04.500
Because we haven't done it on Bondfinger somehow.

1029
00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:07.260
It's that kind of device.

1030
00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:09.900
It's the device to reward the long-term viewer.

1031
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:15.719
But also to pull in the people who have come in halfway through.

1032
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:19.440
So they go back and watch the rest of it or so they go out and buy

1033
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:20.579
the DVD box set.

1034
00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:22.019
Right.

1035
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:24.599
And I'm kind of springing off that.

1036
00:55:24.659 --> 00:55:29.099
I think one of the things that scene does is that the main bits of

1037
00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:34.920
information it hooks into are episode one, it uses the visual

1038
00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:38.699
reference of the astronaut, which is straight there from the very

1039
00:55:38.699 --> 00:55:39.840
beginning of the series.

1040
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:45.360
The other information we know is that River is Amy's daughter.

1041
00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:48.840
They reference Melody Pond, which is the midpoint of the series

1042
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:53.280
and that river has been engineered by the silence, which is the

1043
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:54.179
other big episode.

1044
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:59.219
So the information it's signposting in that scene are the big tent

1045
00:55:59.219 --> 00:56:02.099
pole episodes of the whole series structure.

1046
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:03.960
That's a really good point.

1047
00:56:04.019 --> 00:56:06.239
And generally speaking.

1048
00:56:06.300 --> 00:56:10.920
I mean, generally speaking, the 1st episode of a series is the one

1049
00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:13.440
that people are most likely to have watched.

1050
00:56:13.500 --> 00:56:16.199
It'll be the one with the highest viewing figures.

1051
00:56:16.260 --> 00:56:23.880
And what this does is it positions this episode as a prequel to

1052
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:25.139
episode one.

1053
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:28.019
And so it makes the season circular.

1054
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:32.880
And that's something that, you know, Moffatt is unable to resist, I

1055
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:33.119
think.

1056
00:56:33.659 --> 00:56:35.159
Yeah.

1057
00:56:35.219 --> 00:56:40.739
And also, I think part of why it can get away with, because, you

1058
00:56:40.739 --> 00:56:44.039
know, the revelations of a good man goes to war and let's kill

1059
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:46.920
Hitler are technically just in the middle of the season.

1060
00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:52.380
And in any other season, it would be a bit of a gamble staking so

1061
00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:56.159
much of the audience's retention of information to roughly around

1062
00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:57.659
the midpoint of the season.

1063
00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:02.099
But because the season has been structured with this mid-season

1064
00:57:02.099 --> 00:57:07.260
finale and then this mid-season premiere, it can kind of get away

1065
00:57:07.260 --> 00:57:11.820
with referencing stuff that happens roughly in the middle because

1066
00:57:11.820 --> 00:57:17.039
those points have been treated as an episode 12 and an episode

1067
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:17.460
one.

1068
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:18.480
Yeah.

1069
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:24.900
Also, I think we found watching through that the arc elements do

1070
00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:29.340
intrude in just about every episode of this season.

1071
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:34.800
So we aren't really relying on people remembering something that

1072
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:38.280
happened sort of 6 months ago because it keeps coming up again and

1073
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:38.639
again.

1074
00:57:38.699 --> 00:57:43.980
And so for all of the complexity of this arc, and I think it is

1075
00:57:43.980 --> 00:57:50.460
the most ambitious and complex arc that the show ever attempts, our

1076
00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:53.880
hands are kind of held all the way through and we're kind of

1077
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:55.500
constantly being reminded of it.

1078
00:57:56.099 --> 00:58:02.400
My biggest problem with that taxi is I found it more enticing and

1079
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:05.039
more exciting than the previous 40 minutes.

1080
00:58:05.099 --> 00:58:08.159
And I was like, well, I wish we'd been watching this for the last

1081
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:11.880
40 minutes, and my other issue with it is it offers huge promise

1082
00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:14.699
and then they deliver the wedding with River Song.

1083
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:17.039
But I'm not on that episode, so I'll leave you to do that next

1084
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:17.280
week.

1085
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:19.920
Bye bye.

1086
00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:49.860
Well, they listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1087
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:53.760
We'll be back next week to watch history completely collapse again

1088
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:55.980
in the wedding of River Song.

1089
00:58:56.159 --> 00:59:00.000
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1090
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:02.760
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1091
00:59:02.760 --> 00:59:08.219
at FTE Podcast on Twitter and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1092
00:59:06.420 --> 00:59:11.159
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger

1093
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:16.679
Jody into Terror, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek project.

1094
00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:19.199
Jack, where can people find you online?

1095
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:23.760
You can find me on Twitter at Shaq Janahan.

1096
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:29.099
You can also find me as one of the illustrious co-hosts of the

1097
00:59:29.099 --> 00:59:34.380
Naimon B praise, which I do with another irascible character who

1098
00:59:34.380 --> 00:59:35.820
should not be named or listened to.

1099
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:40.980
Um, uh, by the name of Joe Ford, uh, and you can follow us at uh

1100
00:59:40.980 --> 00:59:41.940
Naimon podcast.

1101
00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:45.659
And Joe, where else can people find you?

1102
00:59:45.719 --> 00:59:47.760
Oh, I've never podcasted before.

1103
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:54.000
No, you can you can find me on my commentary podcast, Dr

1104
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:56.880
Commentary podcast called Hammerson with a Blunt Penknife, of

1105
00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:00.480
which everybody on this chat has contributed.

1106
01:00:00.539 --> 01:00:03.300
Nathan has done about 6 stories now.

1107
01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:06.239
What's your favourite one you've done?

1108
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:10.679
I really enjoyed doing arachnids in the UK.

1109
01:00:10.739 --> 01:00:13.199
That was massively popular as well.

1110
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:13.739
You know?

1111
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:14.460
Go Jolie.

1112
01:00:14.820 --> 01:00:19.199
Brendan gave a meteoric defence of time fly.

1113
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:24.119
And and Jack did one of his favourites, the brain of Morbius.

1114
01:00:24.179 --> 01:00:27.659
And you can find me on Twitter on at DocOho.

1115
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:32.099
Until next time, you're very, very welcome.

1116
01:00:32.159 --> 01:00:34.860
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1117
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:35.940
Good night.

1118
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:36.900
Good night.

1119
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:38.219
Good night.

1120
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:46.320
That was Flight through Entirety.

1121
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:48.780
Sorry, Nathan Bottomley drove forward, Brendan Jones, and Jack

1122
01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:49.619
Shanahan.

1123
01:00:49.739 --> 01:00:51.900
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lann.

1124
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:56.219
This episode, Alfie, was recorded on the 10th of October 2021 and

1125
01:00:56.219 --> 01:00:57.659
released on the 5th of December.

1126
01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:00.659
Yet another shameless plug.

1127
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:04.019
Joe Ford and I can currently be heard on Untitled Star Trek

1128
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:07.500
project, in which we watch and discuss random episodes from every

1129
01:01:07.500 --> 01:01:08.699
Star Trek series.

1130
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:12.300
Stay tuned until after these closing credits to see how

1131
01:01:12.300 --> 01:01:15.539
effortlessly professional we are at podcast production.

1132
01:01:18.599 --> 01:01:21.179
Time to say goodbye, doctor.

1133
01:01:21.239 --> 01:01:22.860
It's closing time.

1134
01:01:25.980 --> 01:01:27.659
Awful, that was even better than the 1st time.

1135
01:01:27.659 --> 01:01:28.739
Thank God we went again.

1136
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:30.179
Yeah, I did a deliver.

1137
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:31.800
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

1138
01:01:31.860 --> 01:01:33.599
In the groove now.

1139
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:37.739
There we go.

1140
01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:43.440
So I have a feeling that we've done this one before.

1141
01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:52.980
I am not leaving in any reference to the fact that I didn't press

1142
01:01:52.980 --> 01:01:58.260
record, except possibly in the tag. so funny.

1143
01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:01.079
Oh my god.

1144
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:08.099
Well, since we get to reuse jokes again, I feel like I'm in a

1145
01:02:08.099 --> 01:02:09.239
chronic hysteresis.

1146
01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:16.500
Incidentally, incidentally, swarm.

1147
01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:22.500
Santarans, weeping angels, ravages Megalos?

1148
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:23.699
Yeah.

1149
01:02:23.820 --> 01:02:25.380
You've cracked the code.

1150
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:27.900
You have cracked the code.

1151
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.480
We nearly had Meg loss in this last year.

1152
01:02:30.539 --> 01:02:31.139
Anyway.

1153
01:02:31.260 --> 01:02:33.239
But I'm going to go...

1154
01:02:33.300 --> 01:02:36.659
Oh, I'm going to go and do that. you meant series.

1155
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:40.079
We nearly had them in series 12.

1156
01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:44.039
Imagine Megloss written by Chris Chibnall.

1157
01:02:45.059 --> 01:02:48.719
That would that would be another orphan 55 moment.

1158
01:02:48.780 --> 01:02:53.400
That may actually have bumped it up a bit in my in my estimation, I

1159
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:53.579
think.

1160
01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:55.860
The timeless child is.

1161
01:02:59.099 --> 01:03:03.360
And it is Olivia Coleman as attached.

1162
01:03:05.579 --> 01:03:08.099
Or you make all the greatest hips.

1163
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:10.500
Oh my god.

1164
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:12.539
If only she'd never been in the show.

1165
01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:13.500
All right, here goes.

1166
01:03:13.619 --> 01:03:15.659
So cactus.

1167
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:16.559
Sorry.

1168
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:21.719
So I have a feeling that we did this one before together earlier

1169
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:22.139
this year.