WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:38:57 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:40.020 Hello, Dennis, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the 2 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:43.200 only Doctor Who podcast that doesn't focus on gossip about 3 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.159 imaginary people. 4 00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:46.140 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:47.100 I'm Simon. 6 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:51.240 I'm Todd, and I think I'm that hilarious one about the eye patch 7 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:51.479 again. 8 00:00:52.979 --> 00:00:57.000 Well, the doctor's death has been clumsily averted, and as a 9 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:00.060 result, the universe is about to undergo a total narrative 10 00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:01.500 collapse. 11 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:04.859 So I've got just enough time to say that this is our episode about 12 00:01:04.859 --> 00:01:06.180 the wedding of River song. 13 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:41.219 I have a feeling that this is a controversial finale. 14 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:43.079 How so? 15 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:47.579 I don't think that it's widely liked. 16 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:48.239 Am I right? 17 00:01:48.299 --> 00:01:49.500 Simon? 18 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:54.000 Well, I'm not in touch with what the general fan populists think. 19 00:01:54.060 --> 00:01:57.719 I just sort of for my own opinions, but I thought at the time, it 20 00:01:57.719 --> 00:01:59.099 was brilliant. 21 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:03.120 Perhaps not quite as strong as the Pandorica opens to Parta that 22 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:06.480 finished off the last season, but I was totally on board, but I 23 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.099 thought it was interesting and it was exciting. 24 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.699 It was witty, and it wrapped everything up, including the kind of 25 00:02:11.699 --> 00:02:14.580 the River song story in quite a delightful way. 26 00:02:14.699 --> 00:02:16.919 What an interesting opinion. 27 00:02:16.979 --> 00:02:17.939 Nathan? 28 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:23.460 Unlike Simon, I was a big fan of the big dumb and loud RTD 29 00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:24.240 finales. 30 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:27.599 I think they're great and they were always, you know, very 31 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:33.719 emotional and really fun and sort of fan servicey and just huge 32 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:34.439 and enjoyable. 33 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:40.080 And so I think I found this one a little bit, a little bit low 34 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:40.919 key. 35 00:02:40.979 --> 00:02:45.300 So I'm not entirely sure that I was on board with it at the time 36 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:47.460 but I am a big fan of it now. 37 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:53.819 Richard, 1st time I saw it, I think Todd and I might have been as 38 00:02:53.819 --> 00:02:56.879 one, and I'm interested to know what you're going to think. 39 00:02:56.939 --> 00:03:00.599 This time I loved it, and I can see all the antecedents, and you 40 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.120 can see that Stephen Moffat has been to a world con or two. 41 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:07.080 There's lots of the SF speculative fiction. 42 00:03:07.139 --> 00:03:10.319 There's David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas in all time being 43 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:11.280 contemporaneous. 44 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:14.819 There's lovely nods to Bogokovs, isn't it? 45 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.659 The master and margarita with Jockhanan with the soothsayer on the 46 00:03:18.659 --> 00:03:22.500 floor and just, I just loved... 47 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:23.159 I loved this. 48 00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:24.360 I really did. 49 00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:27.419 I really, really, really wasn't prepared to. 50 00:03:28.020 --> 00:03:30.000 What about you, Tom? 51 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:34.620 Well, surprise, surprise, Nathan, at the time, I wasn't that 52 00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:35.699 enraptured with this. 53 00:03:35.939 --> 00:03:41.159 I think because it was the 1st time we've had a season finale 54 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.740 that's only like one episode as opposed to a two-parter. 55 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:46.680 And I think that, and the whole narrative is slightly different 56 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:49.500 from what we've had before, especially with all the flashback 57 00:03:49.500 --> 00:03:50.759 stuff that the doctor's saying. 58 00:03:50.819 --> 00:03:53.219 And I've never been that enamoured with this hole. 59 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:56.280 The doctor dies in the 1st episode and then just waiting for the 60 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:58.620 conclusion, like, how do we get out of it? 61 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:03.419 And there's some fairly, in my opinion, obvious things that 62 00:04:03.419 --> 00:04:07.919 Stephen sets up, especially in like last time, because we have to 63 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:09.900 know about the test selector, because that's going to be our get 64 00:04:09.900 --> 00:04:11.039 out of jail free car. 65 00:04:11.099 --> 00:04:16.860 But having said that, and you know my feelings on the middle to 66 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:20.879 episodes of the season, which I really do not light the whole 67 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:28.139 Mel's thing and the conclusion of the previous episode, I watched 68 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:29.100 it again yesterday. 69 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:33.300 I haven't watched it for about 2 months, and I didn't look at my 70 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:37.620 notes, and I just actually really enjoyed it, and I thought, I was 71 00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:40.740 actually giving us answers because I, because I didn't think there 72 00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:43.199 were answers to things, and I was prepared to come in today and 73 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.180 say, he's not giving us answers to this, and this doesn't make 74 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:46.139 sense, and this doesn't make sense. 75 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.439 And I went, oh, it's only taken me 10 years to find these 76 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:49.860 answers. 77 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.579 And then I look back at my notes from 2 months ago and I gave it 78 00:04:53.579 --> 00:04:57.180 an 8 to a 9 out of 10 and saying he's giving us answers. 79 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:00.420 So I've completely changed my mind. 80 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:04.139 It's funny because for me with a test selector coming back, it 81 00:05:04.139 --> 00:05:07.740 sort of goes some way to redeeming let's kill Hitler as an 82 00:05:07.740 --> 00:05:11.279 acceptable episode because it all ends up being okay at the end. 83 00:05:11.339 --> 00:05:12.240 There's a reason for it. 84 00:05:12.300 --> 00:05:14.639 Simon, we're on the same page with that, you know? 85 00:05:14.699 --> 00:05:16.980 I actually really do like the test selector now. 86 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:18.720 At the time, I just didn't. 87 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:23.100 But yeah, it can only be redeemed so far. 88 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:24.060 Let's just speak. 89 00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:24.660 Oh, absolutely. 90 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:26.579 But you know what I'm saying. 91 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.040 Like, you know, actually, it raises it from a zero. 92 00:05:29.100 --> 00:05:30.420 Yes, it does. 93 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.500 Also, we're talking about the 3 problem children in the family 94 00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:35.220 aren't we? 95 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.519 So the youngest of this episode and then the middle children in 96 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:39.240 the middle of the season. 97 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:42.899 The more you spend time with them and the more that you simply 98 00:05:42.899 --> 00:05:45.240 observe them, the fonder you will become of them. 99 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:47.100 You will become more forgiving. 100 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:48.660 They're like your dogs, aren't they? 101 00:05:48.779 --> 00:05:50.160 So. 102 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:56.279 For me, I think this does exhibit a lot of the sort of normal 103 00:05:56.279 --> 00:06:01.199 Moffat tropes, but sort of deployed rather differently. 104 00:06:01.259 --> 00:06:03.779 I think this is the 1st time this particular trope has been 105 00:06:03.779 --> 00:06:05.879 deployed in Doctor Who. 106 00:06:05.939 --> 00:06:10.139 And he does it in 2 out of the 3 episodes of Dracula, which is 107 00:06:10.139 --> 00:06:16.500 that the episode is a story being told by one of the characters 108 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:22.199 and that lasts to about halfway through the episode, and then the 109 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.860 story invades the world of the storytelling. 110 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:29.639 And so the story then continues in the world where the story was 111 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:30.180 being told. 112 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:32.100 I love that sort of thing. 113 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:35.040 Don't you think that sort of, and I've written it down. 114 00:06:35.100 --> 00:06:37.680 Like, to me, that's sort of like, if we're going to do this as a 115 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.920 two-parter, that change of narrative is where the cliffhanger 116 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:41.879 should be. 117 00:06:41.939 --> 00:06:45.899 Amy comes in and sort of defends them against the silence. 118 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:49.860 And there are some really fun things about those scenes where the 119 00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:53.819 doctor is telling the episode to Winston Churchill. 120 00:06:53.819 --> 00:06:58.259 And there's one moment where Churchill interrupts and says that 121 00:06:58.259 --> 00:06:59.339 it's too silly. 122 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:03.120 Like this, you know, we're going from place to place, from world 123 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:03.720 to world. 124 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:06.480 We're seeing all of these sort of different space people and the 125 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:07.439 whole thing is ridiculous. 126 00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:10.199 And so he steps in to complain about that. 127 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:15.240 And because the story's being told, you know, it's how did time 128 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:16.620 break or whatever. 129 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:22.560 The fact that it's sort of a slightly preposterous story is kind 130 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.620 of okay, I think, because the doctor's telling it. 131 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.560 And so all of that beginning stuff, which is just sort of 132 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:33.899 ridiculous and overblown and really funny and sort of Moffatt just 133 00:07:33.899 --> 00:07:35.160 doing space comedy. 134 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:37.500 I think works really well in that context. 135 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:44.220 And then the 2nd thing is that we're assuming that in the bits 136 00:07:44.220 --> 00:07:49.980 where we see the story that the doctor is telling that what's just 137 00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:53.040 happening is that the doctor speaking and Winston Churchill is 138 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.879 listening, and when we come back, sort of suddenly they're in a 139 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.579 different room and he's continuing to tell the story in a 140 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:00.120 different room. 141 00:08:00.180 --> 00:08:03.120 And what we discover is, in fact, no, they can't remember those 142 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.939 bits because they're being attacked by the silence while the 143 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:07.199 doctor's telling the story. 144 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:12.180 And it's that trick that he does in Forest of the Dead, where the 145 00:08:12.180 --> 00:08:15.420 cuts from scene to scene are really happening. 146 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:16.800 They're not just television things. 147 00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:20.040 It's that Donna can't remember the things that happen in between 148 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:20.819 the scenes. 149 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.240 And so it's all that stuff about memory and storytelling and 150 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:28.199 things that he really likes and he's absolutely kind of playing 151 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.779 with it really expertly here, I think. 152 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:34.440 Yeah, it's also the timey whimey on steroids. 153 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:37.379 I mean, it's obviously preposterous that, you know, it's always 154 00:08:37.379 --> 00:08:41.159 502 p.m. on the 22nd of April or whatever it is. 155 00:08:41.220 --> 00:08:46.679 And yet they recognise a passage of time because Churchill has 156 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.679 thrown the doctor into the tower several times already, you know 157 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:50.220 last time. 158 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:53.159 So it's almost like they're on a kind of a, it's like a fusion 159 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.399 between a time loop and the stasis that they're talking about. 160 00:08:56.460 --> 00:08:58.500 But you know, you don't need to think about that too hard. 161 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:00.539 It still, I think, works beautifully narratively. 162 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.720 But I agree with what you're saying, but for some reason, the sort 163 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:06.059 of the silliness is hidden from me. 164 00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:07.500 I don't see it as silly. 165 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:09.360 I just see it is incredibly clever. 166 00:09:09.419 --> 00:09:12.480 And I'm drawn into that so much. 167 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:13.559 And I'm captivated. 168 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:17.399 As each shot, as he goes to, from playing chess to, you know, going 169 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.620 to the bar and being the test selector and all that sort of 170 00:09:19.620 --> 00:09:19.919 stuff. 171 00:09:19.980 --> 00:09:24.539 I'm absolutely captivated the entire time wondering how the hell 172 00:09:24.539 --> 00:09:25.320 this is going to resolve. 173 00:09:25.379 --> 00:09:26.279 It's just fantastic. 174 00:09:26.580 --> 00:09:30.960 Definitely feel that Mr. Moffat has been hanging around at 175 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:31.500 conventions. 176 00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:36.840 Don't forget, they won this year to 2011, 2012 for Doctor's Wife 177 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:38.100 the Hugo and Popular. 178 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:40.259 And I think I was at Welcon that year. 179 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:40.919 Anyway. 180 00:09:40.980 --> 00:09:44.700 Um, but the whole thing of speculative fiction being all time 181 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:47.700 suspended and everything happening at once was a really big trope 182 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:49.860 is the word of collibriums at the time. 183 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:52.799 And you can really see that Stephen Moffat is a reader before he 184 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:53.639 was a writer. 185 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:58.320 And even probably before he was a fan, because yes, this stuff, I 186 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.220 think we've all noted it on 1st viewing, I was incensed with 187 00:10:02.220 --> 00:10:03.059 irritation. 188 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:07.919 I was flamingly tard-es, you know, how I saw this. 189 00:10:07.980 --> 00:10:10.200 It was just, oh, too easy. 190 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:11.460 I can see what you did there. 191 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:12.299 There's your trick. 192 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:13.980 There's your deck of cards. 193 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:15.360 There's your flags of all nations. 194 00:10:15.419 --> 00:10:19.620 So you were irritated because you felt you were seeing through it 195 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:22.500 or because you felt it was inadequately explaining. 196 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:25.019 I'm just curious about that initial from both of you, why it was 197 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:26.580 so terrible the 1st time round. 198 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.799 Because there was a thin layer of observative writing over the 199 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:36.120 narrative, which I always felt as a long-term fan and a long-term 200 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:39.720 reader is disrespective of the characters that you've built, that 201 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:42.419 you're putting a meta construct and being very clever. 202 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:43.500 You're being Jerry Anderson. 203 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:45.120 You're being a puppeteer. 204 00:10:45.179 --> 00:10:48.480 I want to see the narrative driven by the character's responses to 205 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:53.340 incidents, not the toy robot that comes out of the Marvel Studios 206 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:54.059 or whatever it is. 207 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:55.740 I hated the Tesla. 208 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:59.879 Whereas now I just think, oh, you're lampooning that and you're 209 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:00.720 giving it heart. 210 00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:04.500 Point for, I guess I'm trying to say is Stephen Moffatt has put 211 00:11:04.500 --> 00:11:08.279 heart into what he's writing here and has definitely respected 212 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:10.620 what he's doing. 213 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:14.759 I want to talk later about the character development of the, um, I 214 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:16.919 don't want to call them companions of the people that travel with 215 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.220 him because, you know, I think that went on too long, but the 216 00:11:20.220 --> 00:11:23.820 disrespect that was given to Amy that we all felt watching this 217 00:11:23.820 --> 00:11:26.580 maybe in 2011 that was a really nasty taste. 218 00:11:26.700 --> 00:11:31.320 I'm kind of better with now simply because of Karen Gillan's 219 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:33.120 expert momentary reactions. 220 00:11:33.179 --> 00:11:36.179 And I'm not sure if the narrative has given the character the 221 00:11:36.179 --> 00:11:39.840 respect, but it's certainly more respectful watching at this time 222 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:45.000 around this difficult child. 4th time around. 223 00:11:45.059 --> 00:11:46.379 What do you think, Todd? 224 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:47.940 Oh, look, I'm not that Dean. 225 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.379 Yes, I'm much more surface, and it's sort of like, you know, people 226 00:11:52.379 --> 00:11:54.480 picnicking the park with pterodactyls. 227 00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:57.480 Just is ridiculous because you're going to be eaten and then they 228 00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:58.500 suddenly get up and scream. 229 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:02.759 Like, is it like news at 502 or whatever the time is? 230 00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:05.460 Like, you know, this week little Johnny got taken. 231 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:06.179 Do you know what I mean? 232 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.360 And so, and then it's like you suddenly jump from place to place 233 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:15.179 and you don't see that journey and if I go back to, um, a good man 234 00:12:15.179 --> 00:12:18.000 goes to war, I expect you to get the journey to find Amy, but 235 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.399 instead, Stephen's not interested in that, it's like we're there 236 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:21.059 right? 237 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:24.240 And in the next episode, it's like, well, suddenly we're not going 238 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.159 to go and find the baby, the baby's going to find us. 239 00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:27.659 It's not the story he wants to tell us. 240 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.179 And so here it's the same thing where I just kind of think, oh 241 00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:32.940 you're just jumping, you're not showing me. 242 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:36.059 I don't feel it's earned. suddenly just, like, suddenly we're at 243 00:12:36.059 --> 00:12:39.179 the bar and then we're in the place where all the skulls are. 244 00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:40.980 And so that's what annoyed me at the time. 245 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:44.340 So it's almost like you're more interested in all the bit that 246 00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:47.039 we've missed than the destination. 247 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:50.700 And I think that's very old school of me, like original Doctor Who 248 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:51.720 where you see that journey. 249 00:12:51.779 --> 00:12:54.659 And so, and so, but I'm saying that's at that time. 250 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.779 Like now when I was watching it with the whole narrative and the 251 00:12:57.779 --> 00:13:00.059 flashback thing, I appreciate it so much more. 252 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.419 Perhaps I'm not as enamoured as you, but, you know, all the creepy 253 00:13:03.419 --> 00:13:07.259 stuff with the skulls and the live chess and all of that is 254 00:13:07.259 --> 00:13:08.879 actually I actually find that really enjoyable. 255 00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:14.639 And Dorian and all of his stuff, like, you know, when Stephen has 256 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:16.980 a character that he likes, then he'll bring them back, you know 257 00:13:16.980 --> 00:13:17.820 and he'll find a way. 258 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:21.120 And I really like that whole sequence immensely so. 259 00:13:21.179 --> 00:13:26.220 And with it, with Churchill, I just love, and I do love all the 260 00:13:26.220 --> 00:13:28.919 characters that you see, like, from the Salarian guy to, you know 261 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:30.000 Romans on the street. 262 00:13:30.059 --> 00:13:32.519 And Dickens on TV, on the sofa. 263 00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:33.720 You know, I like... 264 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:34.620 Oh my god, that's good. 265 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:38.100 Well, because he did a Christmas carol last year. 266 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:42.299 I mean, is that Dickens talking about his Doctor Who Christmas 267 00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:43.139 special? 268 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.059 It's so fun. 269 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.559 The 1st one brought back from... 270 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:47.879 Yeah, RTD Zera, isn't it? 271 00:13:48.179 --> 00:13:49.139 But you came back. 272 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:49.559 I think. 273 00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:50.159 Yeah, yeah. 274 00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:52.799 But to go back to what you were saying, it's like, it is the 275 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.620 summation of the River song story and these 2 years. 276 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.620 Like he's bringing all these things back from last season as well 277 00:13:58.620 --> 00:13:59.399 up to this point. 278 00:13:59.460 --> 00:14:02.580 And I really do appreciate it so much more. 279 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:04.980 And, you know, you know the stuff that's happening with the 280 00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:08.580 silence and eventually you do get that them all on the roof, which 281 00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:11.039 is just freaky, you know. 282 00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:16.559 And then you get that moment where we have the call about the 283 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:17.580 brigadier passing. 284 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.759 And I really, I really find that very affecting. 285 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:24.179 Like, I actually think Stephen is trying to give a nod to things 286 00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:25.620 that have happened in real life, you know? 287 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:31.200 Yeah, I mean, I recognise why they did that and it's very 288 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:37.620 important, but I, I wish, I don't know, it just felt a little bit 289 00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:39.840 because it didn't, it didn't relate it all to anything else which 290 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:40.379 was going on. 291 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.740 And I understand why, obviously, but they wanted to pay tribute 292 00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:46.259 and that's lovely, but I'm sure it was successful. 293 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:50.100 It is a turning point though, because it is the moment where the 294 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:54.000 doctor stops his farewell tour and decides to go to Utah to die 295 00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:54.539 true, actually. 296 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.720 And he's just said time hasn't laid a hand on me. 297 00:14:57.779 --> 00:15:01.919 And then he gets that news and then he goes, actually, I just have 298 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:02.639 to do this. 299 00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:07.860 And I think it's important for the story and for the art for us to 300 00:15:07.860 --> 00:15:11.580 remember that that is the Doctor Who is killed in episode one, that 301 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:16.799 Canton Everett, Delaware the 3rd, was telling the truth, and the 302 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.379 doctor is really dead, and so he's going to his death. 303 00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:22.320 And we observe that at the end of closing time. 304 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:23.159 He's preparing. 305 00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:25.200 He gets the hat, he gets the envelopes. 306 00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:26.279 He's all sort of ready to go. 307 00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:31.440 And that also is the fun thing, and we'll get to it at the end is 308 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:33.419 the way that he gets out of it. 309 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:39.240 For me, all of those narrative devices and staff fight against 310 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.879 having sympathy for the characters. 311 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:45.659 And this is something that we observed when we were talking about 312 00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:48.899 a good man goes to war, which again is full of sort of flashbacks 313 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:50.460 and tricks and stuff. 314 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:55.440 But I think that Moffatt is still capable of producing real 315 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.299 emotion despite that. 316 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.960 And I think the brigadier thing, which, you know, is easy mode 317 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.539 because we all loved Nick Courtney, and we were all kind of sad 318 00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:04.440 that he'd left. 319 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.220 Um, you know, like I think that there is real proper genuine 320 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:08.820 emotion there. 321 00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:13.799 Yeah, no, I felt that um, and at the risk of revisiting old 322 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:17.460 arguments, it's for me, it's actually the experience that I had 323 00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:20.039 the negative experience that I had about the RTD finales. 324 00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:21.600 I found that there was no emotion. 325 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:24.659 I found it was all just whiz bang spectacle stuff, you know 326 00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:26.700 10000000 Daleks flying through the air, et cetera. 327 00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:30.840 And I, despite what you just said, I do actually think that I was 328 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.360 emotionally involved in the characters in Wedding of a song. 329 00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:37.139 So it's interesting that it just had different reactions to the 330 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:37.500 same material. 331 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.980 I mean, I think I was as well, and I think Amy as Richard kind of 332 00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:46.379 foreshadowed has actually sort of quite a good story going, and I 333 00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:52.799 think it does go some way to trying to clear up the mess that was 334 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:57.899 created by a good man goes to war and all of that sort of horrible 335 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:01.620 mistreatment of Amy and, you know, the abduction of her baby and 336 00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:02.460 all of that sort of thing. 337 00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:06.119 And we observed in our let's kill Hitler episode that he's doing 338 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:07.319 something about that. 339 00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:10.500 He's trying to make that okay and he doesn't do it all that 340 00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:11.279 successfully. 341 00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:16.859 But I do think getting her to kill Madame Cavari and these... 342 00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:19.799 Many of us felt you might be happy. 343 00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:21.420 Somehow. 344 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:27.839 As the turf was laid very clean and flat, leading to this event. 345 00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:32.220 I think one of the things that I always I think one of the things 346 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.460 that I always struggle with is that there is so much going on in 347 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:40.680 Stevens writing in episodes, and to take it all in with his witty 348 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.279 dialogue and trying to sort of 2nd guess him in your own head and 349 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:48.119 take in what's going on, that I often miss a lot of stuff, and or 350 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.940 it doesn't resonate with me at the time, like, you know, the 351 00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:54.420 brigadier thing or, well, you know, the whole, the way in which it 352 00:17:54.420 --> 00:17:55.019 was structured. 353 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:57.599 So, you know, coming back to it, you know, 10 years later is 354 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.000 actually really good because then I appreciate it so much more. 355 00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:05.579 It's almost like the cartinal era, um, which was uh, difficult to 356 00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:10.619 watch the 1st time because they're so jam-packed with stuff and um 357 00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:13.140 and sometimes thanks to sort of poor sound design, you couldn't 358 00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:15.720 even hear some of the dialogue go slight in particular. 359 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.599 It's all rattled off, a chats of rate, even, even though I love 360 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:18.779 it. 361 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.839 And the same thing with the Moffatt episodes or at least these 362 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.859 ones, there's so much jam-packed in that it rewards subsequent 363 00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:30.000 viewing in a way that I think earlier episodes in the new era. 364 00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:33.359 Don't, but that's partly because that's what they were needing to 365 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:33.900 do at the time. 366 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:35.039 They were seeking a broad audience. 367 00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:35.940 So that's all understandable. 368 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.779 For me, like my understanding is like, you know, when they're 369 00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:44.339 revisiting the 1st episode where River shoots the doctor in the 370 00:18:44.339 --> 00:18:48.059 astronaut suit, I had completely blanked the fact that, you know 371 00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:51.059 both of these things are happening at the one time, we get to see 372 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:54.119 the consequences of her shooting the doctor for the season. 373 00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:58.200 But at the same time, this whole alternative history or the whole 374 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.779 alternative thing is happening with the doctor being a soothsayer 375 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:01.680 you know, at 502. 376 00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:04.019 And I never picked that up on that. 377 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:08.519 So for me, that was a huge sort of flaw in the whole storytelling 378 00:19:08.579 --> 00:19:09.359 and going, what is this? 379 00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:11.700 Like, I mean, is this all just happening in this one split 2nd 380 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:12.059 right now. 381 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:15.480 I never realised that it's actually a point in time where we, the 382 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.920 audience, only saw one side of what's happening, you know? 383 00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.940 Yeah, yeah. 384 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.539 And so he does this 3 times, I think, in the episode. 385 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:30.299 So we have seen the events of episode one, and then the doctor 386 00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:37.799 tells the story of a set of events that lead up to the events of 387 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:39.299 episode one, right? 388 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.420 And we get to see more of it and we sort of understand it slightly 389 00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:42.839 better. 390 00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:48.119 Then Amy comes into the narrative and we see another set of events 391 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:54.299 that lead up to the events of episode one that reinterpret it in 392 00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:56.400 some way, that change our attitude to it. 393 00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:01.079 And then at the end of the episode, We've already seen the doctor 394 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:05.460 interact with the test selector and the test selector say, um, if 395 00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:08.400 there's anything that we can do for you, just let us know. 396 00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:11.220 And the doctor looks sad and leaves the scene. 397 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.900 Then we revisit that scene and see how it really ends, which is 398 00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:19.259 him saying, oh, actually, I think you can probably help here. 399 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.980 And so it's that sort of narrative trick of showing us the same 400 00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:26.400 events, but giving them different meanings and different 401 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:28.859 outcomes. 402 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:30.480 And I just think it's really terrific. 403 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:32.700 I think it's terribly clever. 404 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:37.079 And the reason why it's terrific is because you can still watch 405 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.539 you can go back and watch the Impossible Astronaut where you get 406 00:20:39.539 --> 00:20:42.180 shot. and it all still works Yes. 407 00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:46.440 I hate it when these sorts of things happen and it's like, oh, well 408 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:49.079 actually, no, you didn't show us the right way before. 409 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.319 And you showed us something which was a deliberate red herring, a 410 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.740 red herring, to the extent that it was just a complete lie. 411 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:56.519 Do you know what I mean? 412 00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:59.579 And whereas this treats it completely consistently. 413 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:02.099 Now, whether that was designed when they were producing the 414 00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:03.720 impossible astronaut, I don't know. 415 00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:07.140 I don't know whether he's managed to retcorn all this as a way of 416 00:21:07.140 --> 00:21:08.039 getting out of this situation. 417 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.819 It's really interesting your perspective on that because that's 418 00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:15.420 the thing that I struggle with most is the fact that we have that 419 00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:19.259 sequence at the lake and then we have it again here and I just 420 00:21:19.259 --> 00:21:21.960 feel like it's a longer sequence here than what we saw there, the 421 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:25.200 timing and his hair is curled under slightly differently. 422 00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:27.480 And then later on, and there's chromer key. 423 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:30.900 And then later on in the episode with River Song, when she says, he 424 00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:34.200 told me his name, but he actually says, look into my eye, but when 425 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.140 you watch that, it's like one word there, but then it's a few more 426 00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:38.819 words and the timing's not the same. 427 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.119 And so both of those sequences, like because the timing's 428 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.339 different, does my head in and I kind of think, well, is it 429 00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:48.599 reconning it in, or how does that work in the fact that in one 430 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:52.079 instance, we see him talking to that thing for like 10 seconds and 431 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.859 then the next time it seems to be like a like a 42nd conversation 432 00:21:55.859 --> 00:21:57.599 and then the same later on. 433 00:21:57.660 --> 00:22:01.920 And so that's where that's where my irritation with some of the 434 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:02.099 things. 435 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.599 Please help me. 436 00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:05.940 Well, remember an Impossible Astronaut. 437 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.180 We are seeing that conversation from a very long distance away 438 00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:13.259 from the point of view of the doctor's companions at the picnic 439 00:22:13.259 --> 00:22:13.920 right? 440 00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:18.660 And so maybe sort of time is compressed or whatever. 441 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:24.660 But I think that that showing us different aspects of those events 442 00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:29.099 is what Moffatt is trying to do and because it's TV, you know 443 00:22:29.099 --> 00:22:32.279 things get alighted or protracted a little bit and that's kind of 444 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:32.940 fine. 445 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:40.319 What I think also is that the 1st version of it that we see in 446 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:47.160 this episode, where river intervenes actually kind of happens 447 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:49.200 after the doctor's already fixed it. 448 00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:53.160 Like the doctor fixes the problem when he has that chat with a 449 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:57.240 test selector. comes up with an idea of how to solve the problem. 450 00:22:57.299 --> 00:23:01.619 So when River says, actually, I'm not going to shoot you, I'm not 451 00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:04.319 going to do it, she's actually solving a problem the doctor's 452 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:04.859 already solved. 453 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:07.920 And that's why he's so cross with her for trying to get him out of 454 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:12.000 this because he's already got himself out of it by this point. 455 00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:15.900 And that's the kind of fun thing, that in fact, the resolution of 456 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:20.519 the episode happens off screen early on in the episode. 457 00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:24.779 And so when we actually find out the doctor's not dead. 458 00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.779 It's actually this sort of fabulous throwaway line at the end of 459 00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:28.380 the episode. 460 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:30.180 I mean, we weren't going to see it. 461 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.140 Remember that Amy still thinks that the doctor's dead when River 462 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:38.160 turns up after crawling out of the wreck of the Byzantium in Time 463 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:38.819 of Angels. 464 00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:44.339 That whole conversation is, yes, Simon, it is it is actually 465 00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:47.759 joyous, you know, to think that, you know, where they are in their 466 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.599 timelines and all the all the acting that she has to do. 467 00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:54.900 Let's give a song to sort of, you know, not recognise people, et 468 00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:56.099 cetera, and situations. 469 00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:56.400 Yeah. 470 00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:57.900 Yeah, it's a bit of a recon. 471 00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:01.680 But I do love just the tone of it, you know, like she's sitting 472 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.779 there having a glass of wine. 473 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:06.420 And is it, I think, mummy's going to need another drink. 474 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:12.059 But actually, there is one thing that I think they have made an 475 00:24:12.059 --> 00:24:15.660 unfortunate error is because maybe it's just different characters 476 00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:17.940 views of the same situation, but doesn't the doctor say that, or 477 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:20.819 Madame Cavarian say that you're not even going to remember killing 478 00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:24.420 me, which is why she doesn't remember when she's standing there 479 00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:27.539 when she's at the picnic. her future self is at the picnic 480 00:24:27.539 --> 00:24:29.700 watching the doctor be killed by an earlier version of her. 481 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.779 She doesn't remember that. 482 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:35.519 But then at the drinks at the end, she says she was pretending not 483 00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:37.319 to remember shooting the doctor. 484 00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:40.740 And I kind of wish, well, that's just a little inconsistency, but 485 00:24:40.740 --> 00:24:42.059 you know, these things happen. 486 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:47.940 I do think, though, where Amy says that she remembers killing 487 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.960 Madame Cavarian, and to be fair to Amy, all she does is put the 488 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:55.200 eyedrive back on her and let the silence kill her. 489 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.140 She doesn't shoot it with a big gun, she just lets her fall into 490 00:24:58.140 --> 00:24:58.680 her own trap. 491 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:04.440 She remembers that and River says, well, in an alternative 492 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:08.220 timeline, you know, space reasons, it didn't really happen. 493 00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:10.380 And she says no, I remember it. 494 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:12.119 Therefore, it happened. 495 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:14.279 And that's how these stories work. 496 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:18.960 Because we've watched that happen, it happened. 497 00:25:19.019 --> 00:25:23.039 If later on we get space reasons that say, well, that never 498 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.519 happened, that doesn't matter because that's what we saw. 499 00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:31.019 And it's, you know, those sort of mad fans who say, oh, you know 500 00:25:31.019 --> 00:25:34.500 we need to retcon the last Jedi out of existence. 501 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.200 It's kind of like, well, we all sat and watched it in the cinema. 502 00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:40.019 I don't know what you're gonna do about that. none of them ever 503 00:25:40.019 --> 00:25:41.400 visited the space music. 504 00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:43.019 Honestly. 505 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:48.720 But what Amy but Amy's point is, I was capable of doing that and I 506 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:50.519 did it and that's the thing that's upsetting her. 507 00:25:50.579 --> 00:25:52.920 She's proven that she's capable of murder. 508 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:55.680 Well, also extenuating something. 509 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:56.640 Oh, absolutely. 510 00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:57.180 Oh, no. 511 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:01.440 One thing we haven't touched on is the eyedrive itself. 512 00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:03.480 Isn't it great that there's a sort of what you would call a 513 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.079 science fiction or a space reason for why Madame Cavarian is 514 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:08.579 wearing an eye patch aside from being evil? 515 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:09.839 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 516 00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:12.660 And why, when we turned around, they were all wearing eye patches 517 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:13.799 right here. 518 00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:17.400 It's a lovely It's a lovely... 519 00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.200 It's a not dream inferno, isn't it? 520 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:21.000 It has to be a nod to inferno. 521 00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:24.480 You know, I hadn't realised that, of course, that is what he 522 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:24.720 does. 523 00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:28.259 So yes, it's probably is tied into the cheeky thing. 524 00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.240 But Madame Clarion. 525 00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:31.920 What's her motivation? 526 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:35.400 Like, it just seems that she's evil and she wants to take the baby 527 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:39.420 and I still don't get why she's in charge and why she's the one 528 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:39.900 doing it. 529 00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:41.640 I still don't get that to this day. 530 00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:43.200 No, and you never will. 531 00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:44.460 It's never really sort of that. 532 00:26:44.940 --> 00:26:47.940 No, because it's established that the silence isn't a race. 533 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.839 It's a religious culture. you know, And so she's part of that 534 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:52.680 religious cult. 535 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:56.339 So for whatever reason, she's she's bought into the big lie that 536 00:26:56.339 --> 00:26:57.599 the doctor needs to be killed. 537 00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:02.460 And so she's, you know, a pawn in that in that plan, even though 538 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.819 she, well, she is a pawn in the plan because she believes she's in 539 00:27:05.819 --> 00:27:09.240 charge, but as is proven at the end, as with all of our best 540 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:12.900 humanoid villains that we've had throughout the decades, they get 541 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:15.720 their comeuppance because the people they're in league with end up 542 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:16.259 destroying them. 543 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.980 See, I thought Simon was going to say all organised religion. 544 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:25.559 No, it's the Magic Mavic Chen principle, isn't it? 545 00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:28.500 She enjoys her work. 546 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.619 The human who collaborates with the Daleks always ends up being 547 00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:32.700 external. 548 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:48.720 Yeah, you've justified it, but it still doesn't sit quite right 549 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:49.079 with me. 550 00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:50.640 I still just don't feel it. 551 00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:54.660 And, you know, that's one of the few little niggly things I've 552 00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:54.839 had. 553 00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:56.640 I mean, I think she's great. 554 00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:00.119 I think she's played well, but I just kind of felt like I wanted a 555 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.680 bit more of her backstory or just something to set her up more as 556 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:07.019 the supervillain type thing. 557 00:28:07.019 --> 00:28:11.759 And I just, um, I'm not very satisfied with that aspect, but I 558 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:14.700 mean, when you've got so many other things that you've got a recon 559 00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:18.180 resolve, make better after various other episodes, you know? 560 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.319 There's only so much on that list that Stephen can get perfect. 561 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:24.180 And, you know, yeah. 562 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:28.920 I'll completely acknowledge that, um, her motivation for being 563 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:33.599 evil is not as strong as it might be, but, you know, that's my 564 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:37.500 head cannon to justify it to myself to not prevent me from 565 00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:38.220 enjoying it, I guess. 566 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:39.420 Yeah, yeah. 567 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:43.140 You don't need much motivation other than the fun of it, do you? 568 00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:46.740 No, she's a psychopath in magenta lipstick. 569 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:48.480 That's pretty much and amazing heels. 570 00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:51.000 But then we also have the obverse of that. 571 00:28:51.059 --> 00:28:54.480 We have hell in high heels and we all want to meet her, don't we? 572 00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:59.700 So there's a nice little flip side of the of the Janus coin with 573 00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:01.440 River and with Madden. 574 00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:04.799 I want to say Cavorkian, but that's the doctor. 575 00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:09.119 That's right The guy who has sits the Ethanasia. 576 00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:12.720 What do you feel about the editing and direction of this? 577 00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.180 Because I don't think this would have worked at all if we hadn't 578 00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:20.460 had the levels of care that had been put into cutting this? 579 00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:22.740 Well, Jeremy Webb directs this? 580 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.700 What else has he done? 581 00:29:23.819 --> 00:29:25.259 Curse of the Black Spot. 582 00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:26.759 Oh, God. 583 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:29.099 And I bashed... 584 00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:31.680 Oh god, this is another episode I have to defend, isn't it? 585 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:33.539 That's interesting. 586 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:36.359 Of course, this, I felt, was really tight and went really well in 587 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:37.799 that we've discussed. 588 00:29:37.859 --> 00:29:39.599 Yes, we have. going back there. 589 00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:42.779 But I think we mostly, I think we mostly talk script and design 590 00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:45.660 problems when it came to curse of the black spot. 591 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:50.099 And, you know, I thought that the piracy stuff at the very 592 00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:53.160 beginning looks great, you know, and is very well done. 593 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.680 And here, like... 594 00:29:55.740 --> 00:30:01.200 Yes, yes, exactly. none of them have eye patch. 595 00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:02.039 I was about to say that. 596 00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:04.619 Do any of them do any of the pirates have I? 597 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:05.640 He's made up for it. 598 00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:06.539 That's it. 599 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:09.059 Madame Cavarian does appear. she slide in at that one, I don't 600 00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:09.660 know. 601 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:10.200 Yeah, yeah. 602 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:13.799 I think that the look of this is terrifically fun. 603 00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:17.039 I absolutely adore that opening scene where everything is 604 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.500 happening at once, and I acknowledge that it makes absolutely no 605 00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:24.000 sense at all, and it is just a series of ridiculous gags. 606 00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:31.140 But I do love the bizarre cars, you know, like with... 607 00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:33.240 Carried by balloons, because when did that happen in history? 608 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.059 I don't know. just before. 609 00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.700 But, you know, there's a whole lot of British writing and SF 610 00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:41.579 writing at the time that is doing exactly what you're seeing on 611 00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:42.000 the screen. 612 00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.559 It's very chronic. 613 00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.980 It's like with the pyramids and the train's going through it. 614 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:48.779 It's like area 52, which is great. 615 00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:50.579 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 616 00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:51.240 Isn't that great? 617 00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:53.640 But it's Stephen's imagination, and I think it goes back to him 618 00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.640 being a writer and writer of books and storytelling and all that 619 00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:57.119 sort of stuff. 620 00:30:57.180 --> 00:31:00.420 And it's very, I don't know if I want to say new adventures, but 621 00:31:00.420 --> 00:31:04.619 it's a different kind of storytelling than perhaps what Russell 622 00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:05.220 does, you know? 623 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.960 And a whole different kind of narrative and you either really love 624 00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:11.700 it or it does your head in. 625 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:12.660 Yeah, yeah. 626 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.200 Isn't it funny that with all history smooshed together, you only 627 00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:17.400 have the iconic leaders. 628 00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:20.940 So you have you have Winston Churchill, you obviously have JFK 629 00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:24.180 because I think he was a victim of hallucinogenic lipstick. and 630 00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:25.500 you have Cleopatra. 631 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:27.299 You know, a terrible woman or something. 632 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:28.319 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 633 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:30.720 But, you know, you don't have, you know, you don't have Gordon 634 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.880 Brown there at the same time as Mr. Churchill. 635 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.319 Jimmy Callahan. 636 00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:39.299 Jimmy Callahan But the fun thing is that last year we also had a 637 00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:40.799 total event collapse. 638 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.700 And that was a much more sombre affair at the end of the series in 639 00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:45.779 The Big Bang. 640 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:49.500 History was just disappearing and leaving this sort of emptiness 641 00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:50.460 in its way. 642 00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:51.000 It was sad. 643 00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:53.039 Yeah, it was really sort of sombre. 644 00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:55.259 And so he is doing the same thing. 645 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.960 Something has gone wrong with time, you know, whatever. 646 00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:02.880 But instead, the results are funny and sort of visual and and 647 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:04.980 there's gags and all of that sort of thing. 648 00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:08.400 And, you know, there's a Silurian doctor and and, you know, space 649 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.819 cars and steam trains driving through the Gherkin and all of 650 00:32:11.819 --> 00:32:12.000 that. 651 00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:14.700 Like it's just fun and funny and light. 652 00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.460 And I think that that's not what we expected. 653 00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:23.880 I think we were primed by RTD's era to have a silly comedy episode 654 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.539 that introduced the new cast at the beginning and then a big 2 655 00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:33.119 parter that whatever Simon says has massive kind of emotional 656 00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:38.220 resonance and lots of Dalek shooting. 657 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:43.859 And the departure of somebody that we love in a horrible way. 658 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 659 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:48.599 So whereas this, what we're getting. 660 00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:50.220 He tipped the season upside down. 661 00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:55.859 Yeah, and this is nothing like an RTD opener, but it is fun and it 662 00:32:55.859 --> 00:33:00.420 is kind of playing with everything he's set up. 663 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.720 And the death of the doctor was this sort of big sombre thing and 664 00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:06.539 it becomes the occasion for a whole bunch of gags and sort of 665 00:33:06.539 --> 00:33:08.700 narrative playfulness instead of what we expected. 666 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:11.880 But just to expand on that point, and this is why I sort of 667 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:15.420 struggle with articulating it, because I think there is a je ne 668 00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:18.779 sais quoi about any Doctor Who that we love or hate. 669 00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:22.319 Sometimes you just love it and sometimes you just hate it and you 670 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:24.960 just can't find the reason. 671 00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:28.319 And for some reason, even though I acknowledge that a lot of it's 672 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.920 played for laughs and it's funny and it's, you know, for some 673 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:37.079 reason, I'm drawn to this in a way that I'm not drawn to the way 674 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:37.859 Russell did it. 675 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:39.839 Now, I don't know, maybe it's actually David Tennant. 676 00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:41.400 I have the problem with rather than Russell. 677 00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:42.539 Who knows? 678 00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:47.400 But for some reason, the way it's done here, and I can't quite put 679 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:48.180 my finger on it. 680 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.180 Maybe just, maybe it just comes back to the fact that I'm loving 681 00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:54.420 how it all ties together because the gags, all the gags about 682 00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:55.799 history being schmushed together. 683 00:33:55.859 --> 00:33:57.240 It all works together. 684 00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.819 It all makes sense rather than just being a series of gangs. 685 00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:01.259 Maybe I don't know. 686 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:03.599 I completely acknowledge that I'm being a little bit 687 00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:04.079 inconsistent. 688 00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:06.240 But I do love just expanding too. 689 00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:08.099 On the fact that the season's turned upside down. 690 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.019 You start with a two-parter and you've only got a single episode 691 00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:11.820 at the end to resolve it. 692 00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:16.440 And I think maybe that's also something that I love, maybe. 693 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:21.119 The fact that the season starts with that oomph, that weighty, that 694 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:25.199 meaningful double episode, and then it ends with a kind of a bit 695 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:28.860 of a runaround, but pays off all the stuff that was brought up at 696 00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:29.159 the beginning. 697 00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.920 I'd never thought of it like that. 698 00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:33.360 I'd never thought of it like that. 699 00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:34.500 I'm just not that deep. 700 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:41.519 But I think you've made some really great points there about the 701 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:43.320 whole structure of the season in this episode. 702 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.519 And I also love that. 703 00:34:44.579 --> 00:34:47.519 I love the way in which the regulars are used, you know? 704 00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:53.280 I think, again, Captain Williams is so dedicated to Amy, but he 705 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.800 doesn't has no idea really what's going on, but he'll still do it 706 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:56.099 anyway. 707 00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:57.360 I love the sketch. 708 00:34:57.539 --> 00:34:59.699 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 709 00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:03.300 The sketch of like Rory being this incredibly attractive guy. 710 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.940 Because it's totally but it's totally consistent with the way the 711 00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:08.699 relationship is set up, you know, you know, not right back to the 712 00:35:08.699 --> 00:35:10.199 11th hour, not him, the attractive one. 713 00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:13.199 It's a young Val Kilmer. 714 00:35:13.260 --> 00:35:15.059 Oh, is that right? 715 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:20.219 I think he looks great in that outfit, like when the actual sketch 716 00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:22.860 comes down, actually, I actually really do like... 717 00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:25.500 She did the online Tegan Jabanka draw your own man. 718 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.139 They went to the same school. 719 00:35:28.139 --> 00:35:34.260 Yes, she's a very good draft woman. 720 00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:36.659 Title. 721 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:42.059 But I love the way also the doctor talks to him about, you know 722 00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:43.260 you were Mr. Hottiness. 723 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.320 It's like... 724 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.340 You haven't done sex. 725 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:49.079 You haven't done this before. 726 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:52.199 Rory so good in this. 727 00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:53.519 The underplay. 728 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.940 Yeah. 729 00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:59.039 Sotto voce, just the steady bass note through the whole piece and 730 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.539 then you've got all these high notes. 731 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:02.699 It's actually getting quite symphonic, isn't it? 732 00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.099 wonderful plays of light and dark. 733 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:10.500 He doesn't do his sort of usual awkward, sort of, uncomfortable 734 00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:11.639 anxious sort of thing. 735 00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:13.500 He even does Butch eye patch. 736 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:14.579 He's trying to do that. 737 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:19.980 But doesn't that change after the ganger Amy dissolves to 738 00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:20.219 nothing? 739 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.059 It doesn't he sort of he becomes less awkward and a bit more 740 00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:24.420 driven? 741 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:28.980 Maybe, but I do think here, he's not playing it for comedy at all 742 00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.820 although he is, you know, straight man to Matt in that scene that 743 00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:33.539 we just talked about. 744 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:35.699 But he gets to be the soldier. 745 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.679 He gets to be the person who waited. 746 00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:39.900 And she does ask him out. 747 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:43.139 Like she does ask him out and it is this sort of thing where this 748 00:36:43.139 --> 00:36:43.800 is a relationship. 749 00:36:43.860 --> 00:36:44.579 Orders him out. 750 00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:48.599 But it's a relationship that's going to happen in every parallel 751 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:49.199 universe. 752 00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:50.159 Universe, yes, yes, yeah. 753 00:36:50.219 --> 00:36:55.739 I think one of the joys of this, for me, has been Karen Gillan, who 754 00:36:55.739 --> 00:37:00.300 as I have said, listeners a 1000 times over, I despised so much 755 00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:06.239 back at the time and just enjoying her performance so much more 756 00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:07.440 and seeing what she does. 757 00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:09.960 And I still don't think she's the greatest thing since 758 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:10.679 slicespread. 759 00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:15.719 But I really think that she's very good and I just love the 760 00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.440 character in this and the fact that she's remembering and she's 761 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.619 sort of the dog, you know when he's fluffing about in the train 762 00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:26.039 and, oh, you know, you've got to remember and she obviously does 763 00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:29.340 and just her facial expressions and all that, the way she delivers 764 00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:30.659 those lines is delicious. 765 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:38.039 And picking up the squashy, they're the very tartars. gestures. 766 00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:41.940 But also then going into, like, obviously, you know, you took my 767 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:46.679 baby and how she can suddenly go quite sassy and quite like we 768 00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.860 were, like, which is, which took me about a surprise because... 769 00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:55.679 Thinking of river and looking at her parents, like you, you know 770 00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:57.780 how some people are like, you know, seeing their parents who they 771 00:37:57.780 --> 00:38:00.539 are and that sort of thing. and I've never really felt that river 772 00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:04.920 was anything like Amy or Rory, but in that moment, as sort of like 773 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:05.340 okay. 774 00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:09.179 I can see where you get it from and well, she says, you know, she 775 00:38:09.179 --> 00:38:10.739 gets it from me. 776 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:13.440 And so that was a moment that I really enjoyed this time through. 777 00:38:13.500 --> 00:38:15.960 I kind of thought, okay, there's the spark, all the connection 778 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.860 between the mother and the daughter, which, of course, they, the 779 00:38:19.860 --> 00:38:20.639 mother-in-law. 780 00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:23.340 Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is another great gagling. 781 00:38:23.699 --> 00:38:26.760 But yeah, and Karen looks spectacular. 782 00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:27.900 Her hair looks spectacular. 783 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.360 Back to the hair, you know? 784 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:30.960 spectacular. 785 00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:31.260 I agree. 786 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:35.159 Her hair in this season and next season is probably why I really 787 00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:35.699 like it now. 788 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.519 No, it's true. 789 00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:43.440 It's why I love Clara in season 7 and then I kind of like her in 790 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:45.719 season 8, but in season 9, that short hair is just terrible. 791 00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:47.579 So it's like it's the hair thing. 792 00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:55.079 That scene where she says, you know, where do you think River got 793 00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:55.980 it from or whatever? 794 00:38:56.039 --> 00:39:00.059 And and you've got Madame Cavarian saying you don't want to 795 00:39:00.059 --> 00:39:03.420 disappoint your doctor, you know, the doctor wouldn't want you to 796 00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:05.340 do this and they're sort of trying to do that. 797 00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.980 And we think maybe that's going to work for a second. 798 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.179 And then she says, you know, one other thing about the doctor, you 799 00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:14.699 know what the doctor is, like not here. 800 00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:19.260 And so he never finds out that she's done that. 801 00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:24.000 And I think that she should have done that and I think it goes 802 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:30.000 some way to kind of addressing the narrative problem we had before 803 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:33.360 with the abduction of the baby. 804 00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:34.679 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 805 00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:38.639 We actually thought that the doctor and Rory were going to do that 806 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.039 at the beginning of a good man goes to war. 807 00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:44.519 You know, we think the men are now out to rescue their... 808 00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:45.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 809 00:39:45.179 --> 00:39:47.880 But the damsel isn't in distress and she gets to kill the person 810 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.480 who did this to her and I'm so excited by that. love that scene. 811 00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:54.900 Revenge. would have rescued her. 812 00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.460 Yeah. 813 00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:01.679 Yeah, I do like a good villain there. treated it well, but I would 814 00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:04.199 have, yeah, because this is not the right time. 815 00:40:04.260 --> 00:40:09.119 You still have to, I would give you the grace note of doom to 816 00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:10.619 think, you know, dark place. 817 00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:12.900 So it's not necessarily a kind thing. 818 00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:13.920 It's just the right thing. 819 00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:17.400 So she dies here in this abortive timeline, right? 820 00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:18.119 Yeah. 821 00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:21.059 But does that mean she's still out there in the real timeline? 822 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.019 I didn't think of that. 823 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:23.159 Well, we saw her die. 824 00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:24.719 Therefore, she's dead. 825 00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:26.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 826 00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:28.920 Well, unless Moffatt later decides she's a great character and 827 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.619 wants to bring her back for space reasons and then he'll do it 828 00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:35.460 like he does Dodorium and Stracts and just everyone that he kills 829 00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:38.820 off and kind of goes actually I kind of liked them. have them 830 00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:39.059 again. 831 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:41.820 I haven't talked about Dorum or the truncation of character. 832 00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:43.980 He's feeling funny. 833 00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:44.880 He's great. 834 00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:45.900 He really works. 835 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.420 I didn't think so 1st viewing at all. 836 00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:49.019 Oh, really? 837 00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:51.599 TikTok and I were pretty much on the same page. 838 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:53.280 No, he's great in this. 839 00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:57.719 You know, he's such a fun character to deliver all those witty 840 00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:01.500 lines and say something but say nothing at the same time. you know 841 00:41:01.500 --> 00:41:01.800 what I mean? 842 00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:02.579 Yeah. 843 00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:19.500 We've also got the wedding. 844 00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:21.539 A river song? 845 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:22.079 Ah, yes. 846 00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:23.280 Up on the roof. 847 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:24.599 Yeah. 848 00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:29.219 Well, I mean, you know, like, I think it's, it's not a bad scene 849 00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:31.739 and the doctor agrees to it what? 850 00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:33.360 So that he can... 851 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:35.579 Why is he going to it? 852 00:41:35.579 --> 00:41:36.780 Because it's the title of the episode? 853 00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:37.380 Yes. 854 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:38.579 I suspect so. 855 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:42.360 Well, because they don't need to be married to Kiss because it's 856 00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.300 when they come into contact in that Lenovic limitation effect kind 857 00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:50.820 of thing that then time, the clock keeps going and then therefore 858 00:41:50.820 --> 00:41:53.519 they can go through the events of the 22nd of April or whatever it 859 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:53.639 is. 860 00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:55.139 But yeah, you're right. 861 00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:57.599 There's actually no reason why they need to get married. 862 00:41:57.659 --> 00:42:00.659 They talk about the contract, although she is marrying the 863 00:42:00.659 --> 00:42:02.400 simulacra robot thing. 864 00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.139 Yes, the doctor's in there. 865 00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:05.340 Well, he's in there, though, controlling it. 866 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:05.760 Yeah. 867 00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:11.280 So the doctor lies and says, I just told you my name and we know 868 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:14.699 that River knows the doctor's name from Silence in the library. 869 00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:19.920 And so we assume that that's the truth, but he isn't telling her 870 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:25.500 his name at all. telling her, I mean, yeah, yeah, look into my 871 00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:25.800 eye. 872 00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:28.679 And I think that's sort of kind of fun. 873 00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:33.360 So I don't think the wedding is actually, like, it's a, what did 874 00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:33.840 we call it? 875 00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:35.039 A nerd baiting title? 876 00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:37.440 It's just like a doctor's wife. 877 00:42:39.719 --> 00:42:43.619 Yeah, it's not the best thing in the episode. 878 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.019 But can I ask a question now? 879 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.079 So everything's built up that river kills the doctor and she's in 880 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:52.500 prison for killing the doctor, but in my head, it's like, well, she 881 00:42:52.500 --> 00:42:56.280 kills the doctor in a suit that only the Tesla lettic can see, but 882 00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:58.079 does the whole universe know that she kills the doctor? 883 00:42:58.139 --> 00:43:02.579 Like, this is a issue that I have going on in this story because I 884 00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:06.300 kind of felt like it's been built up that she kills a good man 885 00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:08.820 which is the doctor and the whole universe would know and it'd be 886 00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:11.340 a big spectacle, but I kind of think only the doctor, the test 887 00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:12.480 selector and her know it. 888 00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:13.559 And so why is she in prison? 889 00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:19.980 Well, I think, though, that what has to happen is for time to 890 00:43:19.980 --> 00:43:23.880 remain the same and for them not to rewrite the timeline. 891 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:25.260 There's a problem here. 892 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:29.099 So because she was already in prison the 1st time for killing the 893 00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:31.320 doctor when she actually did kill the doctor. 894 00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:35.280 When the doctor fixes this, he can't change it very much. 895 00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:40.019 River changes it by discharging her weapon and refusing to shoot 896 00:43:40.019 --> 00:43:41.519 the doctor and everything goes to hell. 897 00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:45.659 The doctor changes it more subtly by turning up as the doctor in a 898 00:43:45.659 --> 00:43:48.659 doctor suit and then dying and getting burned and all of that sort 899 00:43:48.659 --> 00:43:49.079 of thing. 900 00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:51.659 So he doesn't change anything. 901 00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:58.199 But I think that Moffatt can't have had all of this in mind back 902 00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:02.099 in series 5 when he put River in prison for killing the doctor 903 00:44:02.099 --> 00:44:02.940 which is very clear. 904 00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:03.719 He'd work it out later. 905 00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:05.280 Yeah, he was going to work it out later. 906 00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:10.980 And so he has to do this thing where he makes it okay that she 907 00:44:10.980 --> 00:44:15.000 goes to prison despite not actually killing him because he takes 908 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:18.780 her out all the time to things and, you know, she keeps escaping 909 00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:22.199 and she's not unhappy about being in prison because she can get 910 00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.219 out whenever she wants. 911 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:25.260 And, you know, she's packing. 912 00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:29.340 We've already seen her packing, you know, and we will see more of 913 00:44:29.340 --> 00:44:30.000 that as well. 914 00:44:30.059 --> 00:44:35.519 So look, like he does the best he can with what he's established 915 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:40.440 already, but you can, I think, see some of the rough spots, I 916 00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:40.559 think. 917 00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:41.400 The working. 918 00:44:41.460 --> 00:44:42.360 Yeah I think you can. 919 00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:43.380 Two things. 920 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.260 If I can just loop back to having the wedding at all, I think 921 00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:50.159 whilst the fact that it's not necessary for the plot to work, it 922 00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:55.739 is the nice rounding out of the, you know, river and the doctor, uh 923 00:44:55.739 --> 00:45:00.480 longtime, you know, soulmates, uh, without it being the end of the 924 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:03.420 season where the last 10 minutes of the episode is some great big 925 00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:04.380 wedding where they're all there. 926 00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:09.480 Yeah, you know, and you have tracks and, you know, the, the, the 927 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:09.659 exactly. 928 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:12.300 They're all there, you know, to avoids that kind of rubbish while 929 00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:14.039 still underscoring the importance of this relationship. 930 00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:19.500 I wondered at the time, and I was reminded of it. when I watched 931 00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:20.340 this again last night. 932 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.900 Whether Moffatt was considering changing the direction of the show 933 00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:30.059 after this point, a bit, because up until now in the new era 934 00:45:30.059 --> 00:45:34.260 particularly, the doctor is this completely famous person, everyone 935 00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:34.860 knows who he is. 936 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.860 Oh my god, he saved our civilisation, he's a legend here, he's 937 00:45:37.860 --> 00:45:40.739 legend there, he's, you know, enemy of the Daleks, all that sort 938 00:45:40.739 --> 00:45:41.760 of stuff. 939 00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:46.980 And by saying at the end, when I think Dorian asks him and he says 940 00:45:46.980 --> 00:45:51.420 I'm just going to lie low for a while, partly to make the reason 941 00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:53.760 you know, that Rivers goes to jail at Tetra, Tetra, at work. 942 00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:58.500 But I was wondering whether they were thinking about taking all of 943 00:45:58.500 --> 00:46:01.559 that Doctor Fame out of the picture and just having him go and 944 00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:04.079 arrive somewhere and no one knows who the hell he is and he 945 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:06.420 doesn't know anything and it kind of returning to that level of 946 00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:06.960 mystery. 947 00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:09.480 And I was a little bit disappointed that that isn't what then 948 00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:10.800 eventuated the following year. 949 00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.679 Do you see what you see what I'm trying to say? 950 00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:17.460 Yeah, he tries to actually fix it again, in Asylum of the Daleks 951 00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:20.519 by wiping himself out of the Daleks data. 952 00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:22.139 But it never goes anywhere. 953 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:24.119 It was like, there was a moment at the end of the 5 doctors as 954 00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.719 well when I was 11 and I wondered whether they were going to go 955 00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:30.599 back to a different era where he says, after all, that's how it 956 00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:31.079 all. 957 00:46:31.139 --> 00:46:32.820 You know, you're deliberately going on the run from your own 958 00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:35.219 people in a rack and the old apartheid. after all that's how it 959 00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:35.699 all started. 960 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.500 And that was like, lovely parallel. 961 00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:40.380 I thought that too in 1983 that, oh, they're going to rest the 962 00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:40.619 series. 963 00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:41.340 Yeah. 964 00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:43.320 Not that they're going to arrest the series, but they're going to 965 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:46.019 the whole thing about him being kind of the timelord sending him 966 00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:49.440 on missions from time to time and, you know, Gallifray with its 967 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:50.880 comfy sofas and all that sort of stuff. 968 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.239 It was a way of kind of erasing all that and starting again. 969 00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:58.320 And I thought that maybe this idea that the doctor's not really 970 00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:02.639 dead, but the universe thinks he's dead was a way to start again. 971 00:47:02.699 --> 00:47:04.380 Yeah, a soft a soft reboot. 972 00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:05.579 No, I completely agree with you. 973 00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.820 I was on the same page thinking, oh, so they're just going to dial 974 00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:12.539 it back and, and, well, you'd said it all, really. 975 00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:14.099 Yeah. 976 00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:15.900 And every franchise has to do it. 977 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:18.900 DC does it all the time. you know, literally all the time. 978 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.139 Yeah, because after so many years, you build up so much stuff. 979 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.019 It's understandable that the doctor goes from planet to planet and 980 00:47:25.019 --> 00:47:28.320 it's recognised because he's done all this stuff. you know, 55 odd 981 00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:29.340 years worth of stuff. 982 00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:31.559 Yeah, it starts to ruin the show. 983 00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:37.199 I would have loved a season 22 that did what Simon is saying. would 984 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:38.340 have really loved to have seen that. 985 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.760 Yeah, and I think Peter would have really loved to have performed 986 00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:42.420 that, yeah. 987 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:54.599 At the end of the episode, obviously, says a lot of things to the 988 00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:54.900 doctor. 989 00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:56.159 Like, it's all waiting for you. 990 00:47:56.219 --> 00:48:00.059 You know, trends are all, fall of the 11th, and the question 991 00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:01.199 hidden in plain sight. 992 00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:04.019 The question you've been running from all your life, you know 993 00:48:04.019 --> 00:48:05.219 Doctor Who. 994 00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:08.699 And it's setting up so many things that we can now see, obviously 995 00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:11.639 in retrospect of where things are going with all of these things. 996 00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.840 And the music at that and Matt's performance are just brilliant. 997 00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:17.579 I just love all of that. 998 00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:19.139 It excites me, right? 999 00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:19.980 was thrilling. 1000 00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:22.920 And it's obvious that, you know, he's been running from this 1001 00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:24.239 question all of his life. 1002 00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:25.139 Doctor Who? 1003 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:28.079 And I was just thinking, my God, he's probably spoken to Chris 1004 00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:31.079 Chipnall and said, well, when you take over, you can answer that 1005 00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:31.440 question. 1006 00:48:31.500 --> 00:48:34.860 You've been running from all of your life, right? 1007 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:36.000 Who are you really? 1008 00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:38.159 Unfortunately, Todd, time can be rewritten. 1009 00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:40.860 And Simon, I hope to hell it will be. 1010 00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:46.739 So I think that one of the things that Moffat does is makes his 1011 00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:47.880 mysteries very obvious. 1012 00:48:47.940 --> 00:48:52.800 And so we knew almost immediately that the doctor and River were 1013 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:53.820 married. 1014 00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:54.900 Amy guessed it. 1015 00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.639 We knew that she guessed right. 1016 00:48:56.699 --> 00:48:59.699 It became very clear from the way that they interacted, that that 1017 00:48:59.699 --> 00:49:02.340 was what their relationship is. 1018 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:05.699 Even here, the doctor says, hi, honey, I'm home. 1019 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:09.300 And River says, what sort of time do you call this? 1020 00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:13.139 And he'll do the same thing with Missy? 1021 00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:17.159 Um, you know, that Missy was going to be the master. otherwise. 1022 00:49:17.219 --> 00:49:19.619 It would have just been stupid and who would have cared? 1023 00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:20.760 What the answer is. 1024 00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:24.059 Here the mystery is the 1st question that was ever asked. 1025 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:30.599 And it's asked in the opening titles of an unearthly child, just 1026 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:32.820 as Doctor Who begins. 1027 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.800 And that's what the reference is. 1028 00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:38.400 I think, you know, the question from before the beginning of time 1029 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:39.900 or whatever. 1030 00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:43.800 And Mr. Chibnell, I would have been really happy never knowing the 1031 00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:44.340 answer to that. 1032 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.739 Well, I don't think we get the answer to that, though. 1033 00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:50.280 You know, like the doctor used to be from the planet Gallifrey and 1034 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:53.400 now he's from a completely different planet and who cares, you 1035 00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:54.179 know, like whatever. 1036 00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:58.619 Like, I never think that that actually properly pays off. 1037 00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.840 And I think he's being super clever. 1038 00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:03.599 He knows that you can't answer it. 1039 00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:06.480 And for all the tinkering that Moffat does with the doctor's 1040 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:07.380 origins and stuff. 1041 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:09.059 He leaves the show intact. 1042 00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:12.780 He doesn't do anything. that makes us kind of really reinterpret 1043 00:50:12.780 --> 00:50:14.099 the show as it's happened so far. 1044 00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:16.739 But I wasn't looking for that question, Doctor Who, to be 1045 00:50:16.739 --> 00:50:17.159 answered. 1046 00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:20.699 I was seeing it as a reset to say, remember, that's why we're all 1047 00:50:20.699 --> 00:50:20.880 here. 1048 00:50:20.940 --> 00:50:21.840 We don't really know who he is. 1049 00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:24.360 And not saying that, oh, you know, we'll all answer it for the 1050 00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:26.519 50th or something. you know, we all knew that we were moving 1051 00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:28.860 towards that when we saw this in 2011. 1052 00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:33.059 But, you know, as you were saying earlier, like it's a conclusion 1053 00:50:33.059 --> 00:50:35.820 to the whole river, who she is and all that sort of thing. 1054 00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:39.539 And even as a conclusion to Amy and Rory, it would have been nice 1055 00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:41.400 you know, this is a conclusion to everything. 1056 00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:43.739 You know, they know he's alive, they're back on earth with their 1057 00:50:43.739 --> 00:50:44.039 lives. 1058 00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:45.300 They've got their daughter there. 1059 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:46.679 It's all nicely wrapped up. 1060 00:50:46.739 --> 00:50:48.059 They've left 2 episodes earlier. 1061 00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:49.500 It would have been quite satisfied. 1062 00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:51.719 If that was it, if that was it for Amy and Rory. 1063 00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:54.000 Did we need them to come back at Christmas? 1064 00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:56.760 And then do we need them for another 5 episodes? 1065 00:50:56.820 --> 00:51:00.059 Well, only because the story mechanics of what he wants to perhaps 1066 00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:01.679 do next season dictate it. 1067 00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:04.800 But if this had been it for them, it would have been, I think, a 1068 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:08.519 beautiful way to end it on a positive on so many levels. 1069 00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:09.539 I agree. 1070 00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:12.900 And I think that's a mistake that the modern version of the show 1071 00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:18.599 has made several times by not allowing a character to leave when 1072 00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:20.519 it would have been most satisfying. 1073 00:51:20.579 --> 00:51:22.139 And I know there are all sorts of reasons for that. 1074 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.980 Yeah, I mean, let's be fair, it is Moffat really more than RTD. 1075 00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.639 Like RTD sort of churned through the cast sort of fairly quickly 1076 00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:35.099 but Moffatt keeps Amy and Clara on for a very long time each. 1077 00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.679 And you can see why, like he likes them. 1078 00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:39.059 He likes the characters and stuff. 1079 00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:40.019 They still want to do it. 1080 00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:40.980 Let's keep them. 1081 00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:42.659 The chemistry is... 1082 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:44.699 Well, it's something nice, you know, looking back into history and 1083 00:51:44.699 --> 00:51:47.639 seeing those long running companions, whether it's Joe or Sarah or 1084 00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:48.179 Tegan. 1085 00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.360 They're the anchors of the various areas of the show. 1086 00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.159 And I think that's that's fine. 1087 00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:55.980 No, I mean, they all do it, whether it's Rose coming back. 1088 00:51:56.340 --> 00:52:00.420 Mickey comes back like leaving Mickey in the parallel universe 1089 00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:03.300 would have been just such a lovely kind of such a sad departure. 1090 00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:05.639 They're both guilty as far as I'm concerned. 1091 00:52:05.699 --> 00:52:07.320 But this would have just been a lovely ending. 1092 00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.780 I would have really felt very satisfied. 1093 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.119 Now, the other thing about Amy and Rory. 1094 00:52:12.179 --> 00:52:13.860 I don't know whether this has been brought up in an earlier 1095 00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:18.480 podcast episode, but from the doctor's timeline, they are his 1096 00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:22.139 longest serving companions, because there's what, 200 odd years 1097 00:52:22.139 --> 00:52:24.840 between the 2 versions of the doctor that we see in the impossible 1098 00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:25.440 astronaut. 1099 00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:25.920 No. 1100 00:52:25.980 --> 00:52:29.400 The doctor spends like a 1000 years on the planet Christmas. 1101 00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:31.619 And so Clara is... 1102 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:33.360 Sorry, to this point. 1103 00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:35.400 You're absolutely right. 1104 00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:37.199 But that so he does it again later. 1105 00:52:37.260 --> 00:52:38.340 But you see what I'm saying? 1106 00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:41.460 there's this 200-year period where the doctor, I mean, who knows 1107 00:52:41.460 --> 00:52:44.519 he's off visiting other people and having other whole other 1108 00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:46.800 companions that Big Finish can do audio adventures with. 1109 00:52:46.860 --> 00:52:50.219 But I'm also wondering whether that also does the river thing 1110 00:52:50.219 --> 00:52:54.659 because I'm also thinking that that solves the river relationship 1111 00:52:54.659 --> 00:52:57.599 or expands on the river relationship, effectively they're in a 1112 00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:01.199 relationship for 250 odd years, or 250 odd years of the doctor's 1113 00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:01.619 timeline. 1114 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:07.019 You've got, um, when the future doctor meets at the beginning of 1115 00:53:07.019 --> 00:53:11.340 the Impossible Astronaut, the diary comparison with River, they're 1116 00:53:11.340 --> 00:53:11.940 all up to date. 1117 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:15.059 They're talking about, you know, what was the fish thing? 1118 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:15.539 Jim the fish? 1119 00:53:15.659 --> 00:53:17.099 Jim the Fish and all that sort of stuff. 1120 00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:19.500 And so I think there's this richness. 1121 00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:21.539 It sort of adds to the fact that there's this richness of their 1122 00:53:21.539 --> 00:53:24.480 relationship, which we never see, and that's happened either 1123 00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:26.579 before or after the logic, probably before the logic. 1124 00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:32.039 The thing that Moffat does is he, up until this point, the 1125 00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:35.039 doctor's life has been depicted in the show, right? 1126 00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:38.039 We just see him go on a series of adventures, we assume, broadly 1127 00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:40.440 speaking, that what happens to him is what we see on screen. 1128 00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:42.000 Moffat takes that away. 1129 00:53:42.059 --> 00:53:46.800 And so Matt Smith is the longest living regeneration of the doctor 1130 00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:49.800 because he spends all that time on Christmas that we don't see. 1131 00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:52.079 We don't see him during the 200 years. 1132 00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:54.179 Well, except for the very end of them. 1133 00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:59.280 You know, so now what we see is we still see adventures, the 1134 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:02.639 doctor going on adventures, but it's explicit that what we see is 1135 00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:04.500 a subset of what's happening. 1136 00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:08.699 And so think about Capoldi, who has been at the university for 50 1137 00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:13.559 years or something before we join him when he meets Bill in series 1138 00:54:13.559 --> 00:54:13.920 10. 1139 00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:18.780 Like, that's something that he does, that neither Russell or Nor 1140 00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:20.639 the classic series ever did, I think. 1141 00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:24.059 What an interesting and positive discussion. 1142 00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:27.119 I certainly came in today not thinking that that was necessarily 1143 00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:28.019 going to be the case. 1144 00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:32.159 And it's now solidified in my head that this is a 9 out of... 1145 00:54:32.340 --> 00:54:35.639 Well, see, you agree with me, because I'd probably say 9 as well. 1146 00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:37.860 I know, and I was hitching towards an eight. 1147 00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:39.179 Here we go. 1148 00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:41.579 Richard, I want to be special, but nine. 1149 00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:47.639 Look, I think the episode caps off one of the best seasons of the 1150 00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:48.300 modern era. 1151 00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:51.239 And I tried to think about this, whether I liked the last season 1152 00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:52.440 or this one more. 1153 00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:54.840 And for me, it's actually difficult to separate them. 1154 00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:57.239 I know it's, you know, heresy, but I haven't actually given every 1155 00:54:57.239 --> 00:54:59.579 episode of Mark and then applied an overall average to the whole 1156 00:54:59.579 --> 00:55:01.500 thing, but I'm sort of thinking about gut instinct. 1157 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:04.559 They both contain some of the best episodes the show's ever 1158 00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:05.039 produced. 1159 00:55:05.099 --> 00:55:07.860 And yes, they both have weaker episodes, but I think the 2 of them 1160 00:55:07.860 --> 00:55:11.639 together represent for me, the golden era of the 21st century 1161 00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:13.980 version of the show. 1162 00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:16.920 Like the 5 episode run from the Pandora opens through today, the 1163 00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:18.420 moon, with a Christmas carol in the middle. 1164 00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:23.400 Now that's probably for me, the best run of episodes, the show, the 1165 00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:24.539 modern show's ever produced. 1166 00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:26.519 It's also interesting clever. 1167 00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:28.139 I'm just was totally engaged by. 1168 00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:32.159 And I think, I'm afraid for me, the Moffat era starts to decline 1169 00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:33.360 from this point on. 1170 00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:06.480 Well, Mr., that's all we have time for this week, and for this 1171 00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:10.679 season, we'll be back next week to try and make sensible this in 1172 00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:12.239 our series 6 retrospective. 1173 00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:16.380 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts 1174 00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:19.260 and you can keep up with us at flights for entirety on Facebook, at 1175 00:56:19.260 --> 00:56:23.760 FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, Flightthrough Entirety 1176 00:56:22.739 --> 00:56:26.699 com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger 1177 00:56:26.699 --> 00:56:30.360 Jody Interterterra, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek 1178 00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:30.900 project. 1179 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:35.340 Until next time, remember that people think their memories are bad 1180 00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:36.659 but their memories are fine. 1181 00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:38.820 The past is really like that. 1182 00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.760 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 1183 00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:42.960 Good night. 1184 00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:43.980 See you soon. 1185 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:44.519 Good night. 1186 00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:52.079 That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan 1187 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.059 Bottomley, Simon Moore and Richard Stone. 1188 00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:55.980 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 1189 00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:59.519 This episode, the Magic Mavic Chen principle, was recorded on the 1190 00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:03.119 24th of October 2021 and released on the 12th of December. 1191 00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:07.920 Make sure to tune in next week when we use narrative trickery to 1192 00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:11.099 reveal that episode 21 of Flight Through Entirety never happened 1193 00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:15.360 that episode 67 to 78 take place in an alternative universe and 1194 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:19.500 that James's participation in the 1st 112 episodes was wiped from 1195 00:57:19.500 --> 00:57:22.019 your memory because there was some silence lurking in the corner 1196 00:57:22.019 --> 00:57:23.280 of Brendan's living room. 1197 00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:28.800 Okay, say something hilarious, because this could be the tag. 1198 00:57:29.219 --> 00:57:31.139 That could be the tag. 1199 00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:32.039 It could be the tag. 1200 00:57:36.420 --> 00:57:38.039 All right. 1201 00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:41.820 7.5 out of 10 better than I remember it. 1202 00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:45.420 Yeah, I actually think it's pretty good, I have to say. 1203 00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:48.840 Oh, God, don't tell me I'm going to be saying how fantastically 1204 00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:51.420 awesome it was and everyone's going to be going, oh, it's okay. 1205 00:57:51.539 --> 00:57:52.619 No, I really like it. 1206 00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:55.500 I loved it from the moment I saw it. 1207 00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:57.360 Jesus. 1208 00:57:57.420 --> 00:57:58.920 This is one of the best episodes of the new era. 1209 00:57:59.039 --> 00:57:59.579 No. 1210 00:57:59.579 --> 00:58:00.960 I hate it. 1211 00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:01.440 Oh wow. 1212 00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:04.320 Tot and I were right on the same page. 1213 00:58:04.380 --> 00:58:05.219 Oh God, okay. 1214 00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.019 Here we go again. 1215 00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:07.739 Here we go again. 1216 00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:08.820 So tiresome. 1217 00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:09.300 I'm sorry. 1218 00:58:09.539 --> 00:58:16.260 I am excited about this because I will have to do less fixing the 1219 00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:16.619 sound. 1220 00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:19.739 Not you. 1221 00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:21.480 Everyone. 1222 00:58:22.139 --> 00:58:23.219 Does everyone put a remote? 1223 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:26.519 We can have more over, over talking. 1224 00:58:26.579 --> 00:58:30.780 I can eliminate a little bit of that, but not much because we all 1225 00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:32.400 leak into each other's microphones. 1226 00:58:32.460 --> 00:58:35.280 So we do we do record on different tracks. 1227 00:58:35.340 --> 00:58:36.059 Right. 1228 00:58:36.059 --> 00:58:39.059 But it does leak. 1229 00:58:39.179 --> 00:58:40.019 Yeah. 1230 00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:40.559 Okay. 1231 00:58:40.739 --> 00:58:42.599 Well, let me try this.