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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:13:27

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Hello, Dennis, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that doesn't focus on gossip about imaginary people.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Todd, and I think I'm that hilarious one about the eye patch again.

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Well, the doctor's death has been clumsily averted, and as a result, the universe is about to undergo a total narrative collapse.

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So I've got just enough time to say that this is our episode about the wedding of River song.

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I have a feeling that this is a controversial finale.

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How so?

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I don't think that it's widely liked.

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Am I right?

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Simon?

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Well, I'm not in touch with what the general fan populists think.

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I just sort of for my own opinions, but I thought at the time, it was brilliant.

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Perhaps not quite as strong as the Pandorica opens to Parta that finished off the last season, but I was totally on board, but I thought it was interesting and it was exciting.

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It was witty, and it wrapped everything up, including the kind of the River song story in quite a delightful way.

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What an interesting opinion.

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Nathan?

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Unlike Simon, I was a big fan of the big dumb and loud RTD finales.

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I think they're great and they were always, you know, very emotional and really fun and sort of fan servicey and just huge and enjoyable.

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And so I think I found this one a little bit, a little bit low key.

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So I'm not entirely sure that I was on board with it at the time, but I am a big fan of it now.

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Richard, 1st time I saw it, I think Todd and I might have been as one, and I'm interested to know what you're going to think.

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This time I loved it, and I can see all the antecedents, and you can see that Stephen Moffat has been to a world con or two.

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There's lots of the SF speculative fiction.

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There's David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas in all time being contemporaneous.

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There's lovely nods to Bogokovs, isn't it?

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The master and margarita with Jockhanan with the soothsayer on the floor and just, I just loved...

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I loved this.

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I really did.

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I really, really, really wasn't prepared to.

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What about you, Tom?

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Well, surprise, surprise, Nathan, at the time, I wasn't that enraptured with this.

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I think because it was the 1st time we've had a season finale that's only like one episode as opposed to a two-parter.

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And I think that, and the whole narrative is slightly different from what we've had before, especially with all the flashback stuff that the doctor's saying.

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And I've never been that enamoured with this hole.

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The doctor dies in the 1st episode and then just waiting for the conclusion, like, how do we get out of it?

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And there's some fairly, in my opinion, obvious things that Stephen sets up, especially in like last time, because we have to know about the test selector, because that's going to be our get out of jail free car.

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But having said that, and you know my feelings on the middle to episodes of the season, which I really do not light the whole Mel's thing and the conclusion of the previous episode, I watched it again yesterday.

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I haven't watched it for about 2 months, and I didn't look at my notes, and I just actually really enjoyed it, and I thought, I was actually giving us answers because I, because I didn't think there were answers to things, and I was prepared to come in today and say, he's not giving us answers to this, and this doesn't make sense, and this doesn't make sense.

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And I went, oh, it's only taken me 10 years to find these answers.

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And then I look back at my notes from 2 months ago and I gave it an 8 to a 9 out of 10 and saying he's giving us answers.

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So I've completely changed my mind.

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It's funny because for me with a test selector coming back, it sort of goes some way to redeeming let's kill Hitler as an acceptable episode because it all ends up being okay at the end.

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There's a reason for it.

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Simon, we're on the same page with that, you know?

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I actually really do like the test selector now.

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At the time, I just didn't.

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But yeah, it can only be redeemed so far.

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Let's just speak.

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Oh, absolutely.

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But you know what I'm saying.

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Like, you know, actually, it raises it from a zero.

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Yes, it does.

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Also, we're talking about the 3 problem children in the family, aren't we?

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So the youngest of this episode and then the middle children in the middle of the season.

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The more you spend time with them and the more that you simply observe them, the fonder you will become of them.

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You will become more forgiving.

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They're like your dogs, aren't they?

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So.

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For me, I think this does exhibit a lot of the sort of normal Moffat tropes, but sort of deployed rather differently.

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I think this is the 1st time this particular trope has been deployed in Doctor Who.

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And he does it in 2 out of the 3 episodes of Dracula, which is that the episode is a story being told by one of the characters, and that lasts to about halfway through the episode, and then the story invades the world of the storytelling.

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And so the story then continues in the world where the story was being told.

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I love that sort of thing.

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Don't you think that sort of, and I've written it down.

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Like, to me, that's sort of like, if we're going to do this as a two-parter, that change of narrative is where the cliffhanger should be.

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Amy comes in and sort of defends them against the silence.

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And there are some really fun things about those scenes where the doctor is telling the episode to Winston Churchill.

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And there's one moment where Churchill interrupts and says that it's too silly.

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Like this, you know, we're going from place to place, from world to world.

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We're seeing all of these sort of different space people and the whole thing is ridiculous.

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And so he steps in to complain about that.

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And because the story's being told, you know, it's how did time break or whatever.

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The fact that it's sort of a slightly preposterous story is kind of okay, I think, because the doctor's telling it.

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And so all of that beginning stuff, which is just sort of ridiculous and overblown and really funny and sort of Moffatt just doing space comedy.

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I think works really well in that context.

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And then the 2nd thing is that we're assuming that in the bits where we see the story that the doctor is telling that what's just happening is that the doctor speaking and Winston Churchill is listening, and when we come back, sort of suddenly they're in a different room and he's continuing to tell the story in a different room.

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And what we discover is, in fact, no, they can't remember those bits because they're being attacked by the silence while the doctor's telling the story.

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And it's that trick that he does in Forest of the Dead, where the cuts from scene to scene are really happening.

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They're not just television things.

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It's that Donna can't remember the things that happen in between the scenes.

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And so it's all that stuff about memory and storytelling and things that he really likes and he's absolutely kind of playing with it really expertly here, I think.

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Yeah, it's also the timey whimey on steroids.

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I mean, it's obviously preposterous that, you know, it's always 502 p.m. on the 22nd of April or whatever it is.

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And yet they recognise a passage of time because Churchill has thrown the doctor into the tower several times already, you know, last time.

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So it's almost like they're on a kind of a, it's like a fusion between a time loop and the stasis that they're talking about.

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But you know, you don't need to think about that too hard.

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It still, I think, works beautifully narratively.

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But I agree with what you're saying, but for some reason, the sort of the silliness is hidden from me.

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I don't see it as silly.

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I just see it is incredibly clever.

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And I'm drawn into that so much.

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And I'm captivated.

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As each shot, as he goes to, from playing chess to, you know, going to the bar and being the test selector and all that sort of stuff.

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I'm absolutely captivated the entire time wondering how the hell this is going to resolve.

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It's just fantastic.

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Definitely feel that Mr. Moffat has been hanging around at conventions.

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Don't forget, they won this year to 2011, 2012 for Doctor's Wife, the Hugo and Popular.

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And I think I was at Welcon that year.

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Anyway.

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Um, but the whole thing of speculative fiction being all time suspended and everything happening at once was a really big trope is the word of collibriums at the time.

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And you can really see that Stephen Moffat is a reader before he was a writer.

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And even probably before he was a fan, because yes, this stuff, I think we've all noted it on 1st viewing, I was incensed with irritation.

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I was flamingly tard-es, you know, how I saw this.

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It was just, oh, too easy.

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I can see what you did there.

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There's your trick.

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There's your deck of cards.

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There's your flags of all nations.

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So you were irritated because you felt you were seeing through it or because you felt it was inadequately explaining.

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I'm just curious about that initial from both of you, why it was so terrible the 1st time round.

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Because there was a thin layer of observative writing over the narrative, which I always felt as a long-term fan and a long-term reader is disrespective of the characters that you've built, that you're putting a meta construct and being very clever.

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You're being Jerry Anderson.

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You're being a puppeteer.

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I want to see the narrative driven by the character's responses to incidents, not the toy robot that comes out of the Marvel Studios or whatever it is.

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I hated the Tesla.

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Whereas now I just think, oh, you're lampooning that and you're giving it heart.

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Point for, I guess I'm trying to say is Stephen Moffatt has put heart into what he's writing here and has definitely respected what he's doing.

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I want to talk later about the character development of the, um, I don't want to call them companions of the people that travel with him because, you know, I think that went on too long, but the disrespect that was given to Amy that we all felt watching this maybe in 2011 that was a really nasty taste.

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I'm kind of better with now simply because of Karen Gillan's expert momentary reactions.

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And I'm not sure if the narrative has given the character the respect, but it's certainly more respectful watching at this time around this difficult child. 4th time around.

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What do you think, Todd?

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Oh, look, I'm not that Dean.

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Yes, I'm much more surface, and it's sort of like, you know, people picnicking the park with pterodactyls.

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Just is ridiculous because you're going to be eaten and then they suddenly get up and scream.

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Like, is it like news at 502 or whatever the time is?

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Like, you know, this week little Johnny got taken.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And so, and then it's like you suddenly jump from place to place and you don't see that journey and if I go back to, um, a good man goes to war, I expect you to get the journey to find Amy, but instead, Stephen's not interested in that, it's like we're there, right?

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And in the next episode, it's like, well, suddenly we're not going to go and find the baby, the baby's going to find us.

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It's not the story he wants to tell us.

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And so here it's the same thing where I just kind of think, oh, you're just jumping, you're not showing me.

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I don't feel it's earned. suddenly just, like, suddenly we're at the bar and then we're in the place where all the skulls are.

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And so that's what annoyed me at the time.

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So it's almost like you're more interested in all the bit that we've missed than the destination.

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And I think that's very old school of me, like original Doctor Who, where you see that journey.

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And so, and so, but I'm saying that's at that time.

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Like now when I was watching it with the whole narrative and the flashback thing, I appreciate it so much more.

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Perhaps I'm not as enamoured as you, but, you know, all the creepy stuff with the skulls and the live chess and all of that is actually I actually find that really enjoyable.

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And Dorian and all of his stuff, like, you know, when Stephen has a character that he likes, then he'll bring them back, you know, and he'll find a way.

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And I really like that whole sequence immensely so.

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And with it, with Churchill, I just love, and I do love all the characters that you see, like, from the Salarian guy to, you know, Romans on the street.

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And Dickens on TV, on the sofa.

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You know, I like...

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Oh my god, that's good.

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Well, because he did a Christmas carol last year.

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I mean, is that Dickens talking about his Doctor Who Christmas special?

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It's so fun.

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The 1st one brought back from...

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Yeah, RTD Zera, isn't it?

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But you came back.

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I think.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But to go back to what you were saying, it's like, it is the summation of the River song story and these 2 years.

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Like he's bringing all these things back from last season as well up to this point.

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And I really do appreciate it so much more.

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And, you know, you know the stuff that's happening with the silence and eventually you do get that them all on the roof, which is just freaky, you know.

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And then you get that moment where we have the call about the brigadier passing.

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And I really, I really find that very affecting.

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Like, I actually think Stephen is trying to give a nod to things that have happened in real life, you know?

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Yeah, I mean, I recognise why they did that and it's very important, but I, I wish, I don't know, it just felt a little bit, because it didn't, it didn't relate it all to anything else which was going on.

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And I understand why, obviously, but they wanted to pay tribute and that's lovely, but I'm sure it was successful.

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It is a turning point though, because it is the moment where the doctor stops his farewell tour and decides to go to Utah to die. true, actually.

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And he's just said time hasn't laid a hand on me.

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And then he gets that news and then he goes, actually, I just have to do this.

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And I think it's important for the story and for the art for us to remember that that is the Doctor Who is killed in episode one, that Canton Everett, Delaware the 3rd, was telling the truth, and the doctor is really dead, and so he's going to his death.

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And we observe that at the end of closing time.

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He's preparing.

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He gets the hat, he gets the envelopes.

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He's all sort of ready to go.

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And that also is the fun thing, and we'll get to it at the end is the way that he gets out of it.

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For me, all of those narrative devices and staff fight against having sympathy for the characters.

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And this is something that we observed when we were talking about a good man goes to war, which again is full of sort of flashbacks and tricks and stuff.

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But I think that Moffatt is still capable of producing real emotion despite that.

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And I think the brigadier thing, which, you know, is easy mode because we all loved Nick Courtney, and we were all kind of sad that he'd left.

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Um, you know, like I think that there is real proper genuine emotion there.

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Yeah, no, I felt that um, and at the risk of revisiting old arguments, it's for me, it's actually the experience that I had the negative experience that I had about the RTD finales.

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I found that there was no emotion.

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I found it was all just whiz bang spectacle stuff, you know, 10000000 Daleks flying through the air, et cetera.

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And I, despite what you just said, I do actually think that I was emotionally involved in the characters in Wedding of a song.

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So it's interesting that it just had different reactions to the same material.

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I mean, I think I was as well, and I think Amy as Richard kind of foreshadowed has actually sort of quite a good story going, and I think it does go some way to trying to clear up the mess that was created by a good man goes to war and all of that sort of horrible mistreatment of Amy and, you know, the abduction of her baby and all of that sort of thing.

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And we observed in our let's kill Hitler episode that he's doing something about that.

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He's trying to make that okay and he doesn't do it all that successfully.

185
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But I do think getting her to kill Madame Cavari and these...

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Many of us felt you might be happy.

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Somehow.

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As the turf was laid very clean and flat, leading to this event.

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I think one of the things that I always I think one of the things that I always struggle with is that there is so much going on in Stevens writing in episodes, and to take it all in with his witty dialogue and trying to sort of 2nd guess him in your own head and take in what's going on, that I often miss a lot of stuff, and or it doesn't resonate with me at the time, like, you know, the brigadier thing or, well, you know, the whole, the way in which it was structured.

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So, you know, coming back to it, you know, 10 years later is actually really good because then I appreciate it so much more.

191
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It's almost like the cartinal era, um, which was uh, difficult to watch the 1st time because they're so jam-packed with stuff and um, and sometimes thanks to sort of poor sound design, you couldn't even hear some of the dialogue go slight in particular.

192
00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.779
It's all rattled off, a chats of rate, even, even though I love it.

193
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:30.000
And the same thing with the Moffatt episodes or at least these ones, there's so much jam-packed in that it rewards subsequent viewing in a way that I think earlier episodes in the new era.

194
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:33.900
Don't, but that's partly because that's what they were needing to do at the time.

195
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:35.039
They were seeking a broad audience.

196
00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:35.940
So that's all understandable.

197
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:54.119
For me, like my understanding is like, you know, when they're revisiting the 1st episode where River shoots the doctor in the astronaut suit, I had completely blanked the fact that, you know, both of these things are happening at the one time, we get to see the consequences of her shooting the doctor for the season.

198
00:18:54.180 --> 00:19:01.680
But at the same time, this whole alternative history or the whole alternative thing is happening with the doctor being a soothsayer, you know, at 502.

199
00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:04.019
And I never picked that up on that.

200
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:09.359
So for me, that was a huge sort of flaw in the whole storytelling. and going, what is this?

201
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:12.059
Like, I mean, is this all just happening in this one split 2nd right now.

202
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:19.920
I never realised that it's actually a point in time where we, the audience, only saw one side of what's happening, you know?

203
00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.940
Yeah, yeah.

204
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.539
And so he does this 3 times, I think, in the episode.

205
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:39.299
So we have seen the events of episode one, and then the doctor tells the story of a set of events that lead up to the events of episode one, right?

206
00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.839
And we get to see more of it and we sort of understand it slightly better.

207
00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:56.400
Then Amy comes into the narrative and we see another set of events that lead up to the events of episode one that reinterpret it in some way, that change our attitude to it.

208
00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:08.400
And then at the end of the episode, We've already seen the doctor interact with the test selector and the test selector say, um, if there's anything that we can do for you, just let us know.

209
00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:11.220
And the doctor looks sad and leaves the scene.

210
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:19.259
Then we revisit that scene and see how it really ends, which is him saying, oh, actually, I think you can probably help here.

211
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:28.859
And so it's that sort of narrative trick of showing us the same events, but giving them different meanings and different outcomes.

212
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:30.480
And I just think it's really terrific.

213
00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:32.700
I think it's terribly clever.

214
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:42.180
And the reason why it's terrific is because you can still watch, you can go back and watch the Impossible Astronaut where you get shot. and it all still works Yes.

215
00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:49.079
I hate it when these sorts of things happen and it's like, oh, well, actually, no, you didn't show us the right way before.

216
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:55.740
And you showed us something which was a deliberate red herring, a red herring, to the extent that it was just a complete lie.

217
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:56.519
Do you know what I mean?

218
00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:59.579
And whereas this treats it completely consistently.

219
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.720
Now, whether that was designed when they were producing the impossible astronaut, I don't know.

220
00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:08.039
I don't know whether he's managed to retcorn all this as a way of getting out of this situation.

221
00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:25.200
It's really interesting your perspective on that because that's the thing that I struggle with most is the fact that we have that sequence at the lake and then we have it again here and I just feel like it's a longer sequence here than what we saw there, the timing and his hair is curled under slightly differently.

222
00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:27.480
And then later on, and there's chromer key.

223
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:38.819
And then later on in the episode with River Song, when she says, he told me his name, but he actually says, look into my eye, but when you watch that, it's like one word there, but then it's a few more words and the timing's not the same.

224
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:57.599
And so both of those sequences, like because the timing's different, does my head in and I kind of think, well, is it reconning it in, or how does that work in the fact that in one instance, we see him talking to that thing for like 10 seconds and then the next time it seems to be like a like a 42nd conversation and then the same later on.

225
00:21:57.660 --> 00:22:02.099
And so that's where that's where my irritation with some of the things.

226
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.599
Please help me.

227
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:05.940
Well, remember an Impossible Astronaut.

228
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:13.920
We are seeing that conversation from a very long distance away from the point of view of the doctor's companions at the picnic, right?

229
00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:18.660
And so maybe sort of time is compressed or whatever.

230
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:32.940
But I think that that showing us different aspects of those events is what Moffatt is trying to do and because it's TV, you know, things get alighted or protracted a little bit and that's kind of fine.

231
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:49.200
What I think also is that the 1st version of it that we see in this episode, where river intervenes actually kind of happens after the doctor's already fixed it.

232
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:57.240
Like the doctor fixes the problem when he has that chat with a test selector. comes up with an idea of how to solve the problem.

233
00:22:57.299 --> 00:23:04.859
So when River says, actually, I'm not going to shoot you, I'm not going to do it, she's actually solving a problem the doctor's already solved.

234
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:12.000
And that's why he's so cross with her for trying to get him out of this because he's already got himself out of it by this point.

235
00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:20.519
And that's the kind of fun thing, that in fact, the resolution of the episode happens off screen early on in the episode.

236
00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:24.779
And so when we actually find out the doctor's not dead.

237
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.380
It's actually this sort of fabulous throwaway line at the end of the episode.

238
00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:30.180
I mean, we weren't going to see it.

239
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:38.819
Remember that Amy still thinks that the doctor's dead when River turns up after crawling out of the wreck of the Byzantium in Time of Angels.

240
00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:51.599
That whole conversation is, yes, Simon, it is it is actually joyous, you know, to think that, you know, where they are in their timelines and all the all the acting that she has to do.

241
00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:56.099
Let's give a song to sort of, you know, not recognise people, et cetera, and situations.

242
00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:56.400
Yeah.

243
00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:57.900
Yeah, it's a bit of a recon.

244
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:03.779
But I do love just the tone of it, you know, like she's sitting there having a glass of wine.

245
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:06.420
And is it, I think, mummy's going to need another drink.

246
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:29.700
But actually, there is one thing that I think they have made an unfortunate error is because maybe it's just different characters' views of the same situation, but doesn't the doctor say that, or Madame Cavarian say that you're not even going to remember killing me, which is why she doesn't remember when she's standing there when she's at the picnic. her future self is at the picnic watching the doctor be killed by an earlier version of her.

247
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.779
She doesn't remember that.

248
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:37.319
But then at the drinks at the end, she says she was pretending not to remember shooting the doctor.

249
00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:42.059
And I kind of wish, well, that's just a little inconsistency, but you know, these things happen.

250
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:55.200
I do think, though, where Amy says that she remembers killing Madame Cavarian, and to be fair to Amy, all she does is put the eyedrive back on her and let the silence kill her.

251
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.680
She doesn't shoot it with a big gun, she just lets her fall into her own trap.

252
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:08.220
She remembers that and River says, well, in an alternative timeline, you know, space reasons, it didn't really happen.

253
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:10.380
And she says no, I remember it.

254
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:12.119
Therefore, it happened.

255
00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:14.279
And that's how these stories work.

256
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:18.960
Because we've watched that happen, it happened.

257
00:25:19.019 --> 00:25:26.519
If later on we get space reasons that say, well, that never happened, that doesn't matter because that's what we saw.

258
00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:34.500
And it's, you know, those sort of mad fans who say, oh, you know, we need to retcon the last Jedi out of existence.

259
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.200
It's kind of like, well, we all sat and watched it in the cinema.

260
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:41.400
I don't know what you're gonna do about that. none of them ever visited the space music.

261
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:43.019
Honestly.

262
00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:50.519
But what Amy but Amy's point is, I was capable of doing that and I did it and that's the thing that's upsetting her.

263
00:25:50.579 --> 00:25:52.920
She's proven that she's capable of murder.

264
00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:55.680
Well, also extenuating something.

265
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:56.640
Oh, absolutely.

266
00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:57.180
Oh, no.

267
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:01.440
One thing we haven't touched on is the eyedrive itself.

268
00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:08.579
Isn't it great that there's a sort of what you would call a science fiction or a space reason for why Madame Cavarian is wearing an eye patch aside from being evil?

269
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:09.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

270
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:13.799
And why, when we turned around, they were all wearing eye patches. right here.

271
00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:17.400
It's a lovely It's a lovely...

272
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.200
It's a not dream inferno, isn't it?

273
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:21.000
It has to be a nod to inferno.

274
00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:24.720
You know, I hadn't realised that, of course, that is what he does.

275
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:28.259
So yes, it's probably is tied into the cheeky thing.

276
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.240
But Madame Clarion.

277
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:31.920
What's her motivation?

278
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:39.900
Like, it just seems that she's evil and she wants to take the baby and I still don't get why she's in charge and why she's the one doing it.

279
00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:41.640
I still don't get that to this day.

280
00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:43.200
No, and you never will.

281
00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:44.460
It's never really sort of that.

282
00:26:44.940 --> 00:26:47.940
No, because it's established that the silence isn't a race.

283
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.680
It's a religious culture. you know, And so she's part of that religious cult.

284
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:57.599
So for whatever reason, she's she's bought into the big lie that the doctor needs to be killed.

285
00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:16.259
And so she's, you know, a pawn in that in that plan, even though she, well, she is a pawn in the plan because she believes she's in charge, but as is proven at the end, as with all of our best humanoid villains that we've had throughout the decades, they get their comeuppance because the people they're in league with end up destroying them.

286
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.980
See, I thought Simon was going to say all organised religion.

287
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:25.559
No, it's the Magic Mavic Chen principle, isn't it?

288
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:28.500
She enjoys her work.

289
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.700
The human who collaborates with the Daleks always ends up being external.

290
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:49.079
Yeah, you've justified it, but it still doesn't sit quite right with me.

291
00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:50.640
I still just don't feel it.

292
00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:54.839
And, you know, that's one of the few little niggly things I've had.

293
00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:56.640
I mean, I think she's great.

294
00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:07.019
I think she's played well, but I just kind of felt like I wanted a bit more of her backstory or just something to set her up more as the supervillain type thing.

295
00:28:07.019 --> 00:28:18.180
And I just, um, I'm not very satisfied with that aspect, but I mean, when you've got so many other things that you've got a recon resolve, make better after various other episodes, you know?

296
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.319
There's only so much on that list that Stephen can get perfect.

297
00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:24.180
And, you know, yeah.

298
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:38.220
I'll completely acknowledge that, um, her motivation for being evil is not as strong as it might be, but, you know, that's my head cannon to justify it to myself to not prevent me from enjoying it, I guess.

299
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:39.420
Yeah, yeah.

300
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:43.140
You don't need much motivation other than the fun of it, do you?

301
00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:46.740
No, she's a psychopath in magenta lipstick.

302
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:48.480
That's pretty much and amazing heels.

303
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:51.000
But then we also have the obverse of that.

304
00:28:51.059 --> 00:28:54.480
We have hell in high heels and we all want to meet her, don't we?

305
00:28:54.539 --> 00:29:01.440
So there's a nice little flip side of the of the Janus coin with River and with Madden.

306
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:04.799
I want to say Cavorkian, but that's the doctor.

307
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:09.119
That's right The guy who has sits the Ethanasia.

308
00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:12.720
What do you feel about the editing and direction of this?

309
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:20.460
Because I don't think this would have worked at all if we hadn't had the levels of care that had been put into cutting this?

310
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:22.740
Well, Jeremy Webb directs this?

311
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.700
What else has he done?

312
00:29:23.819 --> 00:29:25.259
Curse of the Black Spot.

313
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:26.759
Oh, God.

314
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:29.099
And I bashed...

315
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:31.680
Oh god, this is another episode I have to defend, isn't it?

316
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:33.539
That's interesting.

317
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.799
Of course, this, I felt, was really tight and went really well in that we've discussed.

318
00:29:37.859 --> 00:29:39.599
Yes, we have. going back there.

319
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:45.660
But I think we mostly, I think we mostly talk script and design problems when it came to curse of the black spot.

320
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:53.160
And, you know, I thought that the piracy stuff at the very beginning looks great, you know, and is very well done.

321
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.680
And here, like...

322
00:29:55.740 --> 00:30:01.200
Yes, yes, exactly. none of them have eye patch.

323
00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:02.039
I was about to say that.

324
00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:04.619
Do any of them do any of the pirates have I?

325
00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:05.640
He's made up for it.

326
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:06.539
That's it.

327
00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:09.660
Madame Cavarian does appear. she slide in at that one, I don't know.

328
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:10.200
Yeah, yeah.

329
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:13.799
I think that the look of this is terrifically fun.

330
00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:24.000
I absolutely adore that opening scene where everything is happening at once, and I acknowledge that it makes absolutely no sense at all, and it is just a series of ridiculous gags.

331
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:31.140
But I do love the bizarre cars, you know, like with...

332
00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:33.240
Carried by balloons, because when did that happen in history?

333
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.059
I don't know. just before.

334
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:42.000
But, you know, there's a whole lot of British writing and SF writing at the time that is doing exactly what you're seeing on the screen.

335
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.559
It's very chronic.

336
00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.980
It's like with the pyramids and the train's going through it.

337
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:48.779
It's like area 52, which is great.

338
00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:50.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

339
00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:51.240
Isn't that great?

340
00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:57.119
But it's Stephen's imagination, and I think it goes back to him being a writer and writer of books and storytelling and all that sort of stuff.

341
00:30:57.180 --> 00:31:05.220
And it's very, I don't know if I want to say new adventures, but it's a different kind of storytelling than perhaps what Russell does, you know?

342
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:11.700
And a whole different kind of narrative and you either really love it or it does your head in.

343
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:12.660
Yeah, yeah.

344
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:17.400
Isn't it funny that with all history smooshed together, you only have the iconic leaders.

345
00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:25.500
So you have you have Winston Churchill, you obviously have JFK, because I think he was a victim of hallucinogenic lipstick. and you have Cleopatra.

346
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:27.299
You know, a terrible woman or something.

347
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:28.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

348
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:32.880
But, you know, you don't have, you know, you don't have Gordon Brown there at the same time as Mr. Churchill.

349
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.319
Jimmy Callahan.

350
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:40.799
Jimmy Callahan But the fun thing is that last year we also had a total event collapse.

351
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:45.779
And that was a much more sombre affair at the end of the series in The Big Bang.

352
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:50.460
History was just disappearing and leaving this sort of emptiness in its way.

353
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:51.000
It was sad.

354
00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:53.039
Yeah, it was really sort of sombre.

355
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:55.259
And so he is doing the same thing.

356
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.960
Something has gone wrong with time, you know, whatever.

357
00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:04.980
But instead, the results are funny and sort of visual and and there's gags and all of that sort of thing.

358
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:12.000
And, you know, there's a Silurian doctor and and, you know, space cars and steam trains driving through the Gherkin and all of that.

359
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:14.700
Like it's just fun and funny and light.

360
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.460
And I think that that's not what we expected.

361
00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:38.220
I think we were primed by RTD's era to have a silly comedy episode that introduced the new cast at the beginning and then a big 2 parter that whatever Simon says has massive kind of emotional resonance and lots of Dalek shooting.

362
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:43.859
And the departure of somebody that we love in a horrible way.

363
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

364
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:48.599
So whereas this, what we're getting.

365
00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:50.220
He tipped the season upside down.

366
00:32:50.279 --> 00:33:00.420
Yeah, and this is nothing like an RTD opener, but it is fun and it is kind of playing with everything he's set up.

367
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:08.700
And the death of the doctor was this sort of big sombre thing and it becomes the occasion for a whole bunch of gags and sort of narrative playfulness instead of what we expected.

368
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:18.779
But just to expand on that point, and this is why I sort of struggle with articulating it, because I think there is a je ne sais quoi about any Doctor Who that we love or hate.

369
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:24.960
Sometimes you just love it and sometimes you just hate it and you just can't find the reason.

370
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:37.859
And for some reason, even though I acknowledge that a lot of it's played for laughs and it's funny and it's, you know, for some reason, I'm drawn to this in a way that I'm not drawn to the way Russell did it.

371
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:39.839
Now, I don't know, maybe it's actually David Tennant.

372
00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:41.400
I have the problem with rather than Russell.

373
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:42.539
Who knows?

374
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:48.180
But for some reason, the way it's done here, and I can't quite put my finger on it.

375
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:55.799
Maybe just, maybe it just comes back to the fact that I'm loving how it all ties together because the gags, all the gags about history being schmushed together.

376
00:33:55.859 --> 00:33:57.240
It all works together.

377
00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.819
It all makes sense rather than just being a series of gangs.

378
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:01.259
Maybe I don't know.

379
00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:04.079
I completely acknowledge that I'm being a little bit inconsistent.

380
00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:06.240
But I do love just expanding too.

381
00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:08.099
On the fact that the season's turned upside down.

382
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:11.820
You start with a two-parter and you've only got a single episode at the end to resolve it.

383
00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:16.440
And I think maybe that's also something that I love, maybe.

384
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:29.159
The fact that the season starts with that oomph, that weighty, that meaningful double episode, and then it ends with a kind of a bit of a runaround, but pays off all the stuff that was brought up at the beginning.

385
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.920
I'd never thought of it like that.

386
00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:33.360
I'd never thought of it like that.

387
00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:34.500
I'm just not that deep.

388
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:43.320
But I think you've made some really great points there about the whole structure of the season in this episode.

389
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.519
And I also love that.

390
00:34:44.579 --> 00:34:47.519
I love the way in which the regulars are used, you know?

391
00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:56.099
I think, again, Captain Williams is so dedicated to Amy, but he doesn't has no idea really what's going on, but he'll still do it anyway.

392
00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:57.360
I love the sketch.

393
00:34:57.539 --> 00:34:59.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

394
00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:03.300
The sketch of like Rory being this incredibly attractive guy.

395
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:10.199
Because it's totally but it's totally consistent with the way the relationship is set up, you know, you know, not right back to the 11th hour, not him, the attractive one.

396
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:13.199
It's a young Val Kilmer.

397
00:35:13.260 --> 00:35:15.059
Oh, is that right?

398
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:22.860
I think he looks great in that outfit, like when the actual sketch comes down, actually, I actually really do like...

399
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:25.500
She did the online Tegan Jabanka draw your own man.

400
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.139
They went to the same school.

401
00:35:28.139 --> 00:35:34.260
Yes, she's a very good draft woman.

402
00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:36.659
Title.

403
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:43.260
But I love the way also the doctor talks to him about, you know, you were Mr. Hottiness.

404
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.320
It's like...

405
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.340
You haven't done sex.

406
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:49.079
You haven't done this before.

407
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:52.199
Rory so good in this.

408
00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:53.519
The underplay.

409
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.940
Yeah.

410
00:35:53.940 --> 00:36:00.539
Sotto voce, just the steady bass note through the whole piece and then you've got all these high notes.

411
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:02.699
It's actually getting quite symphonic, isn't it?

412
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.099
wonderful plays of light and dark.

413
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:11.639
He doesn't do his sort of usual awkward, sort of, uncomfortable, anxious sort of thing.

414
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:13.500
He even does Butch eye patch.

415
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:14.579
He's trying to do that.

416
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:20.219
But doesn't that change after the ganger Amy dissolves to nothing?

417
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.420
It doesn't he sort of he becomes less awkward and a bit more driven?

418
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:33.539
Maybe, but I do think here, he's not playing it for comedy at all, although he is, you know, straight man to Matt in that scene that we just talked about.

419
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:35.699
But he gets to be the soldier.

420
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.679
He gets to be the person who waited.

421
00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:39.900
And she does ask him out.

422
00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:43.800
Like she does ask him out and it is this sort of thing where this is a relationship.

423
00:36:43.860 --> 00:36:44.579
Orders him out.

424
00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:49.199
But it's a relationship that's going to happen in every parallel universe.

425
00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:50.159
Universe, yes, yes, yeah.

426
00:36:50.219 --> 00:37:07.440
I think one of the joys of this, for me, has been Karen Gillan, who, as I have said, listeners a 1000 times over, I despised so much back at the time and just enjoying her performance so much more and seeing what she does.

427
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:10.679
And I still don't think she's the greatest thing since slicespread.

428
00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:30.659
But I really think that she's very good and I just love the character in this and the fact that she's remembering and she's sort of the dog, you know when he's fluffing about in the train and, oh, you know, you've got to remember and she obviously does and just her facial expressions and all that, the way she delivers those lines is delicious.

429
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:38.039
And picking up the squashy, they're the very tartars. gestures.

430
00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:49.860
But also then going into, like, obviously, you know, you took my baby and how she can suddenly go quite sassy and quite like we were, like, which is, which took me about a surprise because...

431
00:37:49.860 --> 00:38:05.340
Thinking of river and looking at her parents, like you, you know how some people are like, you know, seeing their parents who they are and that sort of thing. and I've never really felt that river was anything like Amy or Rory, but in that moment, as sort of like, okay.

432
00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:10.739
I can see where you get it from and well, she says, you know, she gets it from me.

433
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:13.440
And so that was a moment that I really enjoyed this time through.

434
00:38:13.500 --> 00:38:20.639
I kind of thought, okay, there's the spark, all the connection between the mother and the daughter, which, of course, they, the mother-in-law.

435
00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:23.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is another great gagling.

436
00:38:23.699 --> 00:38:26.760
But yeah, and Karen looks spectacular.

437
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:27.900
Her hair looks spectacular.

438
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.360
Back to the hair, you know?

439
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:30.960
spectacular.

440
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:31.260
I agree.

441
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:35.699
Her hair in this season and next season is probably why I really like it now.

442
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.519
No, it's true.

443
00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:45.719
It's why I love Clara in season 7 and then I kind of like her in season 8, but in season 9, that short hair is just terrible.

444
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:47.579
So it's like it's the hair thing.

445
00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:55.980
That scene where she says, you know, where do you think River got it from or whatever?

446
00:38:56.039 --> 00:39:05.340
And and you've got Madame Cavarian saying you don't want to disappoint your doctor, you know, the doctor wouldn't want you to do this and they're sort of trying to do that.

447
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.980
And we think maybe that's going to work for a second.

448
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:14.699
And then she says, you know, one other thing about the doctor, you know what the doctor is, like not here.

449
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:19.260
And so he never finds out that she's done that.

450
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:33.360
And I think that she should have done that and I think it goes some way to kind of addressing the narrative problem we had before with the abduction of the baby.

451
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:34.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

452
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:41.039
We actually thought that the doctor and Rory were going to do that at the beginning of a good man goes to war.

453
00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:44.519
You know, we think the men are now out to rescue their...

454
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:45.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

455
00:39:45.179 --> 00:39:51.480
But the damsel isn't in distress and she gets to kill the person who did this to her and I'm so excited by that. love that scene.

456
00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:54.900
Revenge. would have rescued her.

457
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.460
Yeah.

458
00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:04.199
Yeah, I do like a good villain there. treated it well, but I would have, yeah, because this is not the right time.

459
00:40:04.260 --> 00:40:10.619
You still have to, I would give you the grace note of doom to think, you know, dark place.

460
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:12.900
So it's not necessarily a kind thing.

461
00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:13.920
It's just the right thing.

462
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:17.400
So she dies here in this abortive timeline, right?

463
00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:18.119
Yeah.

464
00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:21.059
But does that mean she's still out there in the real timeline?

465
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.019
I didn't think of that.

466
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:23.159
Well, we saw her die.

467
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:24.719
Therefore, she's dead.

468
00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:26.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

469
00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:39.059
Well, unless Moffatt later decides she's a great character and wants to bring her back for space reasons and then he'll do it, like he does Dodorium and Stracts and just everyone that he kills off and kind of goes actually I kind of liked them. have them again.

470
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:41.820
I haven't talked about Dorum or the truncation of character.

471
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:43.980
He's feeling funny.

472
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:44.880
He's great.

473
00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:45.900
He really works.

474
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.420
I didn't think so 1st viewing at all.

475
00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:49.019
Oh, really?

476
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:51.599
TikTok and I were pretty much on the same page.

477
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:53.280
No, he's great in this.

478
00:40:53.340 --> 00:41:01.800
You know, he's such a fun character to deliver all those witty lines and say something but say nothing at the same time. you know what I mean?

479
00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:02.579
Yeah.

480
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:19.500
We've also got the wedding.

481
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:21.539
A river song?

482
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:22.079
Ah, yes.

483
00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:23.280
Up on the roof.

484
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:24.599
Yeah.

485
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:31.739
Well, I mean, you know, like, I think it's, it's not a bad scene and the doctor agrees to it what?

486
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:33.360
So that he can...

487
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:35.579
Why is he going to it?

488
00:41:35.579 --> 00:41:36.780
Because it's the title of the episode?

489
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:37.380
Yes.

490
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:38.579
I suspect so.

491
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:53.639
Well, because they don't need to be married to Kiss because it's when they come into contact in that Lenovic limitation effect kind of thing that then time, the clock keeps going and then therefore they can go through the events of the 22nd of April or whatever it is.

492
00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:55.139
But yeah, you're right.

493
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:57.599
There's actually no reason why they need to get married.

494
00:41:57.659 --> 00:42:02.400
They talk about the contract, although she is marrying the simulacra robot thing.

495
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.139
Yes, the doctor's in there.

496
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:05.340
Well, he's in there, though, controlling it.

497
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:05.760
Yeah.

498
00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:14.699
So the doctor lies and says, I just told you my name and we know that River knows the doctor's name from Silence in the library.

499
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:25.800
And so we assume that that's the truth, but he isn't telling her his name at all. telling her, I mean, yeah, yeah, look into my eye.

500
00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:28.679
And I think that's sort of kind of fun.

501
00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:33.840
So I don't think the wedding is actually, like, it's a, what did we call it?

502
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:35.039
A nerd baiting title?

503
00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:37.440
It's just like a doctor's wife.

504
00:42:39.719 --> 00:42:43.619
Yeah, it's not the best thing in the episode.

505
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.019
But can I ask a question now?

506
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:58.079
So everything's built up that river kills the doctor and she's in prison for killing the doctor, but in my head, it's like, well, she kills the doctor in a suit that only the Tesla lettic can see, but does the whole universe know that she kills the doctor?

507
00:42:58.139 --> 00:43:12.480
Like, this is a issue that I have going on in this story because I kind of felt like it's been built up that she kills a good man, which is the doctor and the whole universe would know and it'd be a big spectacle, but I kind of think only the doctor, the test selector and her know it.

508
00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:13.559
And so why is she in prison?

509
00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:23.880
Well, I think, though, that what has to happen is for time to remain the same and for them not to rewrite the timeline.

510
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:25.260
There's a problem here.

511
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:31.320
So because she was already in prison the 1st time for killing the doctor when she actually did kill the doctor.

512
00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:35.280
When the doctor fixes this, he can't change it very much.

513
00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:41.519
River changes it by discharging her weapon and refusing to shoot the doctor and everything goes to hell.

514
00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:49.079
The doctor changes it more subtly by turning up as the doctor in a doctor suit and then dying and getting burned and all of that sort of thing.

515
00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:51.659
So he doesn't change anything.

516
00:43:51.780 --> 00:44:02.940
But I think that Moffatt can't have had all of this in mind back in series 5 when he put River in prison for killing the doctor, which is very clear.

517
00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:03.719
He'd work it out later.

518
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:05.280
Yeah, he was going to work it out later.

519
00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:23.219
And so he has to do this thing where he makes it okay that she goes to prison despite not actually killing him because he takes her out all the time to things and, you know, she keeps escaping and she's not unhappy about being in prison because she can get out whenever she wants.

520
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:25.260
And, you know, she's packing.

521
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:30.000
We've already seen her packing, you know, and we will see more of that as well.

522
00:44:30.059 --> 00:44:40.559
So look, like he does the best he can with what he's established already, but you can, I think, see some of the rough spots, I think.

523
00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:41.400
The working.

524
00:44:41.460 --> 00:44:42.360
Yeah I think you can.

525
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:43.380
Two things.

526
00:44:43.440 --> 00:45:04.380
If I can just loop back to having the wedding at all, I think whilst the fact that it's not necessary for the plot to work, it is the nice rounding out of the, you know, river and the doctor, uh, longtime, you know, soulmates, uh, without it being the end of the season where the last 10 minutes of the episode is some great big wedding where they're all there.

527
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:09.659
Yeah, you know, and you have tracks and, you know, the, the, the, exactly.

528
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:14.039
They're all there, you know, to avoids that kind of rubbish while still underscoring the importance of this relationship.

529
00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:20.340
I wondered at the time, and I was reminded of it. when I watched this again last night.

530
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:34.860
Whether Moffatt was considering changing the direction of the show after this point, a bit, because up until now in the new era, particularly, the doctor is this completely famous person, everyone knows who he is.

531
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:41.760
Oh my god, he saved our civilisation, he's a legend here, he's legend there, he's, you know, enemy of the Daleks, all that sort of stuff.

532
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:53.760
And by saying at the end, when I think Dorian asks him and he says, I'm just going to lie low for a while, partly to make the reason, you know, that Rivers goes to jail at Tetra, Tetra, at work.

533
00:45:53.820 --> 00:46:06.960
But I was wondering whether they were thinking about taking all of that Doctor Fame out of the picture and just having him go and arrive somewhere and no one knows who the hell he is and he doesn't know anything and it kind of returning to that level of mystery.

534
00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:10.800
And I was a little bit disappointed that that isn't what then eventuated the following year.

535
00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.679
Do you see what you see what I'm trying to say?

536
00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:20.519
Yeah, he tries to actually fix it again, in Asylum of the Daleks, by wiping himself out of the Daleks data.

537
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:22.139
But it never goes anywhere.

538
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:31.079
It was like, there was a moment at the end of the 5 doctors as well when I was 11 and I wondered whether they were going to go back to a different era where he says, after all, that's how it all.

539
00:46:31.139 --> 00:46:35.699
You know, you're deliberately going on the run from your own people in a rack and the old apartheid. after all that's how it all started.

540
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.500
And that was like, lovely parallel.

541
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:40.619
I thought that too in 1983 that, oh, they're going to rest the series.

542
00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:41.340
Yeah.

543
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:50.880
Not that they're going to arrest the series, but they're going to the whole thing about him being kind of the timelord sending him on missions from time to time and, you know, Gallifray with its comfy sofas and all that sort of stuff.

544
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.239
It was a way of kind of erasing all that and starting again.

545
00:46:54.300 --> 00:47:02.639
And I thought that maybe this idea that the doctor's not really dead, but the universe thinks he's dead was a way to start again.

546
00:47:02.699 --> 00:47:04.380
Yeah, a soft a soft reboot.

547
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:05.579
No, I completely agree with you.

548
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:12.539
I was on the same page thinking, oh, so they're just going to dial it back and, and, well, you'd said it all, really.

549
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:14.099
Yeah.

550
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:15.900
And every franchise has to do it.

551
00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:18.900
DC does it all the time. you know, literally all the time.

552
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.139
Yeah, because after so many years, you build up so much stuff.

553
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:29.340
It's understandable that the doctor goes from planet to planet and it's recognised because he's done all this stuff. you know, 55 odd years worth of stuff.

554
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:31.559
Yeah, it starts to ruin the show.

555
00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:38.340
I would have loved a season 22 that did what Simon is saying. would have really loved to have seen that.

556
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:42.420
Yeah, and I think Peter would have really loved to have performed that, yeah.

557
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:54.900
At the end of the episode, obviously, says a lot of things to the doctor.

558
00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:56.159
Like, it's all waiting for you.

559
00:47:56.219 --> 00:48:01.199
You know, trends are all, fall of the 11th, and the question hidden in plain sight.

560
00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:05.219
The question you've been running from all your life, you know, Doctor Who.

561
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:11.639
And it's setting up so many things that we can now see, obviously, in retrospect of where things are going with all of these things.

562
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.840
And the music at that and Matt's performance are just brilliant.

563
00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:17.579
I just love all of that.

564
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:19.139
It excites me, right?

565
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:19.980
was thrilling.

566
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:24.239
And it's obvious that, you know, he's been running from this question all of his life.

567
00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:25.139
Doctor Who?

568
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:31.440
And I was just thinking, my God, he's probably spoken to Chris Chipnall and said, well, when you take over, you can answer that question.

569
00:48:31.500 --> 00:48:34.860
You've been running from all of your life, right?

570
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:36.000
Who are you really?

571
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:38.159
Unfortunately, Todd, time can be rewritten.

572
00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:40.860
And Simon, I hope to hell it will be.

573
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:47.880
So I think that one of the things that Moffat does is makes his mysteries very obvious.

574
00:48:47.940 --> 00:48:53.820
And so we knew almost immediately that the doctor and River were married.

575
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:54.900
Amy guessed it.

576
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.639
We knew that she guessed right.

577
00:48:56.699 --> 00:49:02.340
It became very clear from the way that they interacted, that that was what their relationship is.

578
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:05.699
Even here, the doctor says, hi, honey, I'm home.

579
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:09.300
And River says, what sort of time do you call this?

580
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:13.139
And he'll do the same thing with Missy?

581
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:17.159
Um, you know, that Missy was going to be the master. otherwise.

582
00:49:17.219 --> 00:49:19.619
It would have just been stupid and who would have cared?

583
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:20.760
What the answer is.

584
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:24.059
Here the mystery is the 1st question that was ever asked.

585
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:32.820
And it's asked in the opening titles of an unearthly child, just as Doctor Who begins.

586
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.800
And that's what the reference is.

587
00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:39.900
I think, you know, the question from before the beginning of time or whatever.

588
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:44.340
And Mr. Chibnell, I would have been really happy never knowing the answer to that.

589
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.739
Well, I don't think we get the answer to that, though.

590
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:54.179
You know, like the doctor used to be from the planet Gallifrey and now he's from a completely different planet and who cares, you know, like whatever.

591
00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:58.619
Like, I never think that that actually properly pays off.

592
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.840
And I think he's being super clever.

593
00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:03.599
He knows that you can't answer it.

594
00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:07.380
And for all the tinkering that Moffat does with the doctor's origins and stuff.

595
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:09.059
He leaves the show intact.

596
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:14.099
He doesn't do anything. that makes us kind of really reinterpret the show as it's happened so far.

597
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:17.159
But I wasn't looking for that question, Doctor Who, to be answered.

598
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:20.880
I was seeing it as a reset to say, remember, that's why we're all here.

599
00:50:20.940 --> 00:50:21.840
We don't really know who he is.

600
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:28.860
And not saying that, oh, you know, we'll all answer it for the 50th or something. you know, we all knew that we were moving towards that when we saw this in 2011.

601
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:35.820
But, you know, as you were saying earlier, like it's a conclusion to the whole river, who she is and all that sort of thing.

602
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:41.400
And even as a conclusion to Amy and Rory, it would have been nice, you know, this is a conclusion to everything.

603
00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:44.039
You know, they know he's alive, they're back on earth with their lives.

604
00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:45.300
They've got their daughter there.

605
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:46.679
It's all nicely wrapped up.

606
00:50:46.739 --> 00:50:48.059
They've left 2 episodes earlier.

607
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:49.500
It would have been quite satisfied.

608
00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:51.719
If that was it, if that was it for Amy and Rory.

609
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:54.000
Did we need them to come back at Christmas?

610
00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:56.760
And then do we need them for another 5 episodes?

611
00:50:56.820 --> 00:51:01.679
Well, only because the story mechanics of what he wants to perhaps do next season dictate it.

612
00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:08.519
But if this had been it for them, it would have been, I think, a beautiful way to end it on a positive on so many levels.

613
00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:09.539
I agree.

614
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:20.519
And I think that's a mistake that the modern version of the show has made several times by not allowing a character to leave when it would have been most satisfying.

615
00:51:20.579 --> 00:51:22.139
And I know there are all sorts of reasons for that.

616
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.980
Yeah, I mean, let's be fair, it is Moffat really more than RTD.

617
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:35.099
Like RTD sort of churned through the cast sort of fairly quickly, but Moffatt keeps Amy and Clara on for a very long time each.

618
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.679
And you can see why, like he likes them.

619
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:39.059
He likes the characters and stuff.

620
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:40.019
They still want to do it.

621
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:40.980
Let's keep them.

622
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:42.659
The chemistry is...

623
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:48.179
Well, it's something nice, you know, looking back into history and seeing those long running companions, whether it's Joe or Sarah or Tegan.

624
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.360
They're the anchors of the various areas of the show.

625
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.159
And I think that's that's fine.

626
00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:55.980
No, I mean, they all do it, whether it's Rose coming back.

627
00:51:56.340 --> 00:52:03.300
Mickey comes back like leaving Mickey in the parallel universe would have been just such a lovely kind of such a sad departure.

628
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:05.639
They're both guilty as far as I'm concerned.

629
00:52:05.699 --> 00:52:07.320
But this would have just been a lovely ending.

630
00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.780
I would have really felt very satisfied.

631
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.119
Now, the other thing about Amy and Rory.

632
00:52:12.179 --> 00:52:25.440
I don't know whether this has been brought up in an earlier podcast episode, but from the doctor's timeline, they are his longest serving companions, because there's what, 200 odd years between the 2 versions of the doctor that we see in the impossible astronaut.

633
00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:25.920
No.

634
00:52:25.980 --> 00:52:29.400
The doctor spends like a 1000 years on the planet Christmas.

635
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:31.619
And so Clara is...

636
00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:33.360
Sorry, to this point.

637
00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:35.400
You're absolutely right.

638
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:37.199
But that so he does it again later.

639
00:52:37.260 --> 00:52:38.340
But you see what I'm saying?

640
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:46.800
there's this 200-year period where the doctor, I mean, who knows, he's off visiting other people and having other whole other companions that Big Finish can do audio adventures with.

641
00:52:46.860 --> 00:53:01.619
But I'm also wondering whether that also does the river thing because I'm also thinking that that solves the river relationship or expands on the river relationship, effectively they're in a relationship for 250 odd years, or 250 odd years of the doctor's timeline.

642
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:11.940
You've got, um, when the future doctor meets at the beginning of the Impossible Astronaut, the diary comparison with River, they're all up to date.

643
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:15.059
They're talking about, you know, what was the fish thing?

644
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:15.539
Jim the fish?

645
00:53:15.659 --> 00:53:17.099
Jim the Fish and all that sort of stuff.

646
00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:19.500
And so I think there's this richness.

647
00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:26.579
It sort of adds to the fact that there's this richness of their relationship, which we never see, and that's happened either before or after the logic, probably before the logic.

648
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:35.039
The thing that Moffat does is he, up until this point, the doctor's life has been depicted in the show, right?

649
00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:40.440
We just see him go on a series of adventures, we assume, broadly speaking, that what happens to him is what we see on screen.

650
00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:42.000
Moffat takes that away.

651
00:53:42.059 --> 00:53:49.800
And so Matt Smith is the longest living regeneration of the doctor because he spends all that time on Christmas that we don't see.

652
00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:52.079
We don't see him during the 200 years.

653
00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:54.179
Well, except for the very end of them.

654
00:53:54.239 --> 00:54:04.500
You know, so now what we see is we still see adventures, the doctor going on adventures, but it's explicit that what we see is a subset of what's happening.

655
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:13.920
And so think about Capoldi, who has been at the university for 50 years or something before we join him when he meets Bill in series 10.

656
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:20.639
Like, that's something that he does, that neither Russell or Nor, the classic series ever did, I think.

657
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:24.059
What an interesting and positive discussion.

658
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:28.019
I certainly came in today not thinking that that was necessarily going to be the case.

659
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:32.159
And it's now solidified in my head that this is a 9 out of...

660
00:54:32.340 --> 00:54:35.639
Well, see, you agree with me, because I'd probably say 9 as well.

661
00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:37.860
I know, and I was hitching towards an eight.

662
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:39.179
Here we go.

663
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:41.579
Richard, I want to be special, but nine.

664
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:48.300
Look, I think the episode caps off one of the best seasons of the modern era.

665
00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:52.440
And I tried to think about this, whether I liked the last season or this one more.

666
00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:54.840
And for me, it's actually difficult to separate them.

667
00:54:54.960 --> 00:55:01.500
I know it's, you know, heresy, but I haven't actually given every episode of Mark and then applied an overall average to the whole thing, but I'm sort of thinking about gut instinct.

668
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:05.039
They both contain some of the best episodes the show's ever produced.

669
00:55:05.099 --> 00:55:13.980
And yes, they both have weaker episodes, but I think the 2 of them together represent for me, the golden era of the 21st century version of the show.

670
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:18.420
Like the 5 episode run from the Pandora opens through today, the moon, with a Christmas carol in the middle.

671
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:24.539
Now that's probably for me, the best run of episodes, the show, the modern show's ever produced.

672
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:26.519
It's also interesting clever.

673
00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:28.139
I'm just was totally engaged by.

674
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:33.360
And I think, I'm afraid for me, the Moffat era starts to decline from this point on.

675
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:12.239
Well, Mr., that's all we have time for this week, and for this season, we'll be back next week to try and make sensible this in our series 6 retrospective.

676
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:30.900
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flights for entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, Flightthrough Entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek project.

677
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:36.659
Until next time, remember that people think their memories are bad, but their memories are fine.

678
00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:38.820
The past is really like that.

679
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.760
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

680
00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:42.960
Good night.

681
00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:43.980
See you soon.

682
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:44.519
Good night.

683
00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:54.059
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Simon Moore and Richard Stone.

684
00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:55.980
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

685
00:56:56.039 --> 00:57:03.119
This episode, the Magic Mavic Chen principle, was recorded on the 24th of October 2021 and released on the 12th of December.

686
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:23.280
Make sure to tune in next week when we use narrative trickery to reveal that episode 21 of Flight Through Entirety never happened, that episode 67 to 78 take place in an alternative universe and that James's participation in the 1st 112 episodes was wiped from your memory because there was some silence lurking in the corner of Brendan's living room.

687
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:28.800
Okay, say something hilarious, because this could be the tag.

688
00:57:29.219 --> 00:57:31.139
That could be the tag.

689
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:32.039
It could be the tag.

690
00:57:36.420 --> 00:57:38.039
All right.

691
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:41.820
7.5 out of 10 better than I remember it.

692
00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:45.420
Yeah, I actually think it's pretty good, I have to say.

693
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:51.420
Oh, God, don't tell me I'm going to be saying how fantastically awesome it was and everyone's going to be going, oh, it's okay.

694
00:57:51.539 --> 00:57:52.619
No, I really like it.

695
00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:55.500
I loved it from the moment I saw it.

696
00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:57.360
Jesus.

697
00:57:57.420 --> 00:57:58.920
This is one of the best episodes of the new era.

698
00:57:59.039 --> 00:57:59.579
No.

699
00:57:59.579 --> 00:58:00.960
I hate it.

700
00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:01.440
Oh wow.

701
00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:04.320
Tot and I were right on the same page.

702
00:58:04.380 --> 00:58:05.219
Oh God, okay.

703
00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.019
Here we go again.

704
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:07.739
Here we go again.

705
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:08.820
So tiresome.

706
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:09.300
I'm sorry.

707
00:58:09.539 --> 00:58:16.619
I am excited about this because I will have to do less fixing the sound.

708
00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:19.739
Not you.

709
00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:21.480
Everyone.

710
00:58:22.139 --> 00:58:23.219
Does everyone put a remote?

711
00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:26.519
We can have more over, over talking.

712
00:58:26.579 --> 00:58:32.400
I can eliminate a little bit of that, but not much because we all leak into each other's microphones.

713
00:58:32.460 --> 00:58:35.280
So we do we do record on different tracks.

714
00:58:35.340 --> 00:58:36.059
Right.

715
00:58:36.059 --> 00:58:39.059
But it does leak.

716
00:58:39.179 --> 00:58:40.019
Yeah.

717
00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:40.559
Okay.

718
00:58:40.739 --> 00:58:42.599
Well, let me try this.