Hello, dear listen, and welcome back to Fly Through Entirety, the
only Doctor Who podcast that can be both dead and pregnant and not
pregnant, all at the same time.
I'm Nathan.
I pregnant.
I'm not pregnant.
I am or am not the wife you've been looking for for this season.
Well, 3 months ago we attended the doctor's funeral, and a week
ago, we were guests at his wedding.
In the meantime, we've met Richard Nixon, some pirates, the
doctor's wife, twice, belligerent goo people, a scary turf, Hitler
a time travelling, shape shifting robot operated by miniaturised
cross people, dollies, malfunctioning medical technology twice, a
sexy Minotaur, and James Corden.
Can we make any sense of all of this?
Let's find out in our series 6 retrospective.
Sexy Minotaur James Corden.
Yeah, that's an edit that's not gonna...
Thanks, Nathan.
Well, we always start with the hard-hitting questions here, so
here we go.
Snog, Mario, void.
Peter.
Peter, Elsie, Jen Gibbons.
Well, you couldn't snog Elsie, because her hips would give way.
Give us, you could just put him in the closet and he'd look
scared.
That would be fine.
And who's the other one?
Jen.
Oh, that's not Rory, is it?
I would avoid her at all costs as I would the gangers.
Okay, thank you.
Dry date, that one.
Alrighty.
So one of our listeners, the human palindrome at Mark Cochram.
Ask this.
Can you ever have too much of Alex Kingston?
I'm going to say no.
I have to say that there is something about the episodes that
she's in, and it's not just her performance.
It is also just the fact that the doctor has a friend who's a
recurring character, a returning meme.
Yeah, and who works really well with the other regular cast, I
think.
I think about the Angels 2 parter from last year.
So much of that was about her relationship with a doctor and her
relationship with Amy.
And having her back over and over again for the arc episodes this
year is just great, I think.
That is such a good point.
Would young Matt have hit his strides so well if it weren't for
Alex Kingston in that opening story, really showing him tone.
Because actors for actors, it's the feel of the piece.
It's the feel in the space of the piece, is it not?
You've both acted, so.
Yeah, I mean, people play off one another and respond to one
another.
Yeah, and raising the tone to a sassy screwball 30s, Preston
Sturgis comedy type thing, which, you know, Kingston is a fan of
and so is our lovely Stephen.
I think you can have far too much of River song, but that which
elevates whoever song is Alex Kingston.
I think what you're saying about Time of Angels, just go back to
last season is correct because she was there in Matt and Karen's
very 1st scenes on the beach and I think they kind of imprinted on
her and she was a really valuable presence.
Rubbing the oil of performance. amelioration into each other.
Come on.
And I think every time she turns up this season, you kind of cheer
at the screen.
And so when she fires the gun and knocks the Stetson off the
doctor's head.
You just, you know it's going to be her before you see her and
it's just amazing. you're looking forward to it The only time I
think you can get maybe a little bit too much of River is in Let's
Kill Hitler, which is an otherwise interesting episode, but I
think it asks a little bit too much of her charisma in the same
way as it does of Matt's.
And so that's the only point where I find her presence a little
bit wearing, but she's phenomenal.
And the actors had to work.
Real horrid in that one to get the charm factors up, didn't they?
Because there was not a lot of charm happening.
Yeah, there was a lot of quirk.
A lot of interest.
Yeah, but yeah, totally.
Yes, I do agree on that point.
I've been listening to you guys talk about those episodes, which I
was not in, and it was very interesting listening to you, Nathan
in your points of view on Let's Kild, Hitler, and certainly Alex's
performance in that as she performs as Mel's.
And for me, it's always slightly off-putting.
Like, it doesn't feel like River Song.
And I struggle with the whole Mel's concept anyway.
Again, you put forward a really good sort of defence about how we
well, a defence, a point of view.
Like we drop into the Amy and Rory's storyline, and we only see
bits and pieces, and it's okay not to know about mills, and you
sort of did it as a parallel to Wilf.
But I see it a bit differently because we have Donna for an
episode, and then we have Wilfred episode, and then they're both
in it together.
And it's not like we have a whole season of Donna without Will
being mentioned.
Right.
And so if they'd mentioned Mills in a piece of dialogue back in
season 5 at some point, just something between Amy and Rory, I
really would have paid it off.
Whereas in this season, I feel that, to me, it comes across like
I'm desperately trying to rescue the whole plot that I've set up
to make it more palatable for people, you know, or some quirky
tricks.
So for me, it just doesn't pay off the same way.
But you were also talking about in an episode about the test
selector, which I didn't like the 1st time through.
Because again, I just thought it was a get out of jail free card
and we're just introducing it in this episode because we have to
would it be better to introduce it previously and seed that sort
of thing.
But I'm now completely, that's under 180 on that, because I think
if you'd seeded at like the previous season, then people would
have just said, oh, yeah, he's going to use that.
Whereas Stephen putting it in that episode, like, yeah, it
actually is a good thing.
You know, I think, but it happens too much this season where it's
sort of like, we need the gangers, so they're in that episode to
explain what's happening to Amy and we need Mel's to explain that
and we need the test selector.
So it's just the same trick for me happening in the same
episodes.
But it was really good listening to your points of view.
Well, you see, I think this is clearly the most complex and
ambitious arc that the show ever attempts, and it never goes back
again.
And you can see Moffatt reacting against it next year with series
7 where it's a series of movies that have no sort of linked arc.
And that's not quite true.
There are character arcs in series 7, but nevertheless, he doesn't
ever do this again.
And having each episode somehow contribute to the arc, while not
being an arc story, like the gangers, for instance, which we
didn't think was very successful, but introduces an important
concept, I think that's actually quite good.
And I don't think the arc is as complex as everyone says.
I think it is reasonably straightforward.
Is that right?
I think it's pretty straightforward, but you can see the parts
moving with it.
It doesn't mesh to the rest of the season all that well.
So we keep returning to it, to reiterate it because it doesn't
feel organic to the rest of the story.
It's like it's been imposed on top of the season.
And so you've got banner episodes which do deal with it.
And on the episodes which don't.
You keep having to jimmy it in with kind of scenes in the TARDIS
where they'll talk about Amy's pregnancy or the fact that the
doctor died and he doesn't know.
So it just feels like it's a little bit of hard work, not much, but
a little bit.
Yeah.
I think he kind of is anxious about the ark.
And so that's where...
It's really racist.
Because, yeah, not me.
It's like he keeps having these scenes which are just completely
unnecessary.
And I think I have a sort of shrieking fit earlier on this season
on FDA where I complain that an episode begins with exactly the
same scene that had ended the previous episode with Rory and Amy
talking about the doctor being dead.
And it's kind of like, come on, you know.
Fireside chat by that stuff, isn't it?
Yeah, we bet you can always do it previously on Doctor Who.
Like, you don't have to give us this stuff over and over again.
I think that's the break and accelerator feeling we have with this
season.
It's so contemporaneous.
It felt so fresh at the time and it is.
And the way it's filmed and the way it's performed.
Everything about the production values is so now then.
But the concepts are actually Hugo Gurn's back apart from the
phantom pregnancy thing, which is maybe a bit more ray-brebery, but
they're all 40s, 50s. tropes.
They really are, all those things.
The gangers, the robot monster man.
These are pulp fiction, 30s, 40s, golden age ideas.
There's nothing really bling in this.
And maybe that actually helps because if they had been proper meta
current SF as you're getting in short stories and, you know, as
you've been getting in SF writing now for 30 years, I don't think
you'd keep the audience.
Oh, we're up to flux.
Well, I mean, the thing is that neither Moffatt nor Davies are
really interested in science fiction.
I don't think they're SFO, can't they?
No, no, I don't think Moffat, Stephen Moffat is.
ITD would probably dabble in the.
It's now so esoteric and speculative.
And it's been so gender fluid, actually, for at least 2 decades
that really the only current SF that I've been getting in Doctor
Who really since the 70s is the Jody season now.
But that's getting ahead of ourselves, isn't it?
way ahead.
Yeah, but no, I think that maybe there's a certain comfort level
in this.
If they hadn't done the pregnancy thing, what do you think?
If they hadn't done that, everyone would have felt a little, well
not just a little.
It would have fitted better.
It would have might have been a bit more Trad.
If you're going to go way out there, be careful where you go.
Yeah, I think I observe that when I heard Amy was pregnant when
she tells the doctor in that. opening 2 parter.
It's in the 1st episode, isn't it?
That I thought that this is something a show would be unlikely to
be able to actually deal with and guess what?
You know?
Do you think it's a failure or do you think it is just a misstep
or...
So remember that Moffat doesn't mind being cruel to his characters
because they're fictional, right?
So no person was harmed in the making of this episode.
So he does terrible things to Bill.
He does terrible things to Clara.
He does terrible things to Amy.
But...
I just think the pregnancy thing was a lapse in taste.
I think that's the problem.
There's an ick factor to it.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's kind of...
There is something about a heterosexual man watching their partner
be pregnant, that sometimes people find alienating.
You know, like your wife is going through this thing, but you're
external too.
And it's all kind of, it's like she's put in a tube and you know
it kind of experimented on.
Like it's weird and I just think some of that stuff is leaking
into the show.
There's a kind of ickiness about pregnancy that's being expressed
here, which I just think is unfortunate.
Can you not use words like leaking and expressing?
Yeah, there is there is a Nick factor.
And I think it permeates the rest of the season as well because
this season, well, I'm at pains to say it is still pretty good in
a lot of places.
It lacks the fun light touch that last year had.
So it feels like some of the fun has been drained out of it.
And that affects a whole lot of different things.
It affects the storytelling.
It affects the performances of the leads, I think, who are still
giving immaculate performances, but just not quite as much of a
light touch as they had last year.
Yeah, I think that's right.
I mean, last year's plot was all about Amy fleeing her wedding in
order to have fun with her imaginary friend.
And so there is sort of huge lightness about it and it's about
childhood and all of that sort of thing.
Now it becomes sort of miserably about adulthood in, you know, a
sort of Buffy series 6 kind of way.
And it just is sort of slightly unpleasant.
And I do think that scene where Amy's baby collapses into a pile
of sick.
You know, maybe that seemed better on the page.
But once, once you see Karen Gillen reacting to it in a way that
you know, a classic series actor would not have, I'm seeing Nicola
Bryant setting fire to the studio.
Yeah, well, yeah, no, I mean, Nicola Bryant, again, has the same
problem, doesn't she, in case she's a Nasani?
She's too good.
And I think Karen is too good for that scene and so the distress
is too real.
And even though it's a sort of science fiction thing that could
never happen.
Her reaction brings such reality to it.
It's too close to everything, you know, who's a couple or a single
person who's had a miscarriage.
It's just too damn close.
Yeah, yeah.
So that sort of leads to a question here from one of our listeners
Fluxa Gregory, champion of the damned, at Felix Fraser.
As this to say, what 3 things, and it can be anything from behind
the scenes to what was broadcast, would you change about this
series?
So it sounds like the whole pregnancy storyline is certainly one
thing that we would consider.
Yeah.
Could you have kept the pregnancy though?
You see, this is the sad thing is it's one of the current missing
episodes and that I do remember seeing it a very long time ago
this story that we're talking about, but I actually have no real
recollection of how it hangs together.
And I just feel that feel that if we, you know, maybe we could do
a reconstruction of it and sort of rewrite it.
I told the Celestial Toymaker is a great story too.
The massacre.
Go back and say, yes.
Well, I guess.
No, pregnancy is not, you know, the giving of life or the most
emotional experience you can possibly go through is not something
that we should divert ourselves from, but we should tackle it with
as you said, with taste.
But I think that's also the pressures of the time of the writing
you know, when you're under the hammer to get things out.
You know, I think Stephen in the past when he's been in the
Russell T era.
He's had time to reflect and polish, and here it's sort of like
here's my 1st or 2nd draft.
I can't take a state back because I've got to deal with other
things, you know?
And so he has the ability to still deliver really interesting
dialogue and complex stories, but you don't have time to replace
scripts or you don't, do you know what I'm saying?
And we said last season as well, one of the problems that Stephen
faces is that he doesn't have a Stephen.
He doesn't have another reliable person who's delivering someone
every season. to give him that sort of little break.
That little respite.
Well, we can look in the past.
What would Terrence Dix have done?
I mean, whether it be Liz Shaw or Romani, you just boot him out at
the 1st time.
I'm getting up there.
Or a more victorious case, tosser to the seaweed.
Or you'll hire Bob Baker and Dave Martin and all your problems are
solved.
Oh.
No, couldn't hire him now.
No, no.
I like the idea that Amy is River Song's mother.
And yeah, I like that.
And I like her getting to take revenge on Madame Cavare in the
finale.
I think it's great scene.
So good.
Wedding of River Song is actually much better than people think it
is.
Much better than we remember, isn't it?
Yeah, we were really positive about it.
I haven't heard that podcast yet.
Yeah, it's good.
It's good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Interrupting you with another question from one of our listeners.
Simon Hart says this.
It's been a series of highs and lows, but which story do you think
rise so high and which one feels so low?
And I think the wedding of River song for me is the episode that
actually rised so high.
Yeah I agree too.
I liked it more than I expected.
I liked let's kill Hitler more than I expected. even though I
think that there's some scenes that I don't enjoy watching
watching towards the end of it.
Um, I think that Night Terrace has very little to recommend it, and
I think Curse of the Black Spot is much worse than I remember, and
it's because of those goddamn space corridors.
It promises pirates and just gives us the most dingy, low effort
space corridors imaginable.
It's miserable.
Your 1st attempt at interpretive theatre in the school gym.
If only they'd shot it at the paper mill.
Richard, do you highs and lows, which rise so high?
I want to be original, but nah.
Exactly what you said.
My lowest still lets kill Hitler because I cannot escape that
which Mr. Moffat should have considered.
I don't know. come back to that.
I agree with Nathan, but what would you have done with the
pregnancy arc, Peter and Todd?
What would you have written instead?
Would you have had the baby at all?
Well, I know you can't because your insides are all wrong, but
what would you?
Well, considering that the plot line is River Song is going to be
her child, there is no escaping that, really, is there?
Well, I mean, you could have her not pregnant and still discover
that later on she gets pregnant and has, because it's also the
abduction of the baby as well.
That's right.
The thing that I find uncomfortable is kind of the forced Bertha
aspect of the whole thing.
That's quite true.
So maybe more in a girl who waited universe. could have had the
child and perhaps there would have been something, they could have
been a gentler way of doing it.
I think that he does make attempts to fix it.
And they work on a story kind of level on a fictional level.
But if you're watching these imagining real people going through
it, then it's absolutely unsatisfactory.
The fact that, you know, she's a little girl dying of tuberculosis
or something in New York at the end of episode two.
Like it's miserable. terrible.
And then she's got to get herself across to England many years
later and I assume that she would have regenerated into an adult
and then regenerated back into a small child so she could then
live as Mel's.
Yeah, that's right.
She is a small child, isn't she?
We do see flashback males in sort of like Matt Smith Capaldi in
reverse.
What about you, Peter?
Like, are there any stories that you think?
rows so high or anything that fell down for you?
I think the god complex is clearly the best episode of the season
not because of what it's attempting, but just because it's a
really good old-fashioned, traditional, excellent story, which is
really well made, and we're a bit short on those this season.
What I would change, and going back to our previous reader's
question as well, about 3 things you change about the season, all
3 of mine would be the gangers two-parter.
It's just this big mushy ganga's shaped hole in the middle of
season.
Did we ever find out if they have those, by the way?
I'm crossing my legs.
We got to cover that, didn't we, Peters?
We've been in that.
In that congee.
Yeah, that narrative congee, yes.
It didn't work.
There's a lot of failures in this season for a lot of to equal the
high points, yeah.
It's that thing where people say, oh, I don't like the arc
episodes, but I do like the individual episodes. you kind of go
well, what have you got?
You know, girl who waited and God complex.
The other individual.
Oh, doctor's wife. his wife.
Yeah.
But the others are not that great, I think.
Yeah, I kind of think last year, those episodes were like above
the seven, for me, whereas this year they're falling below that
right?
And so it's just a dip.
And I don't like the gang of stuff I would change that.
I think that Metsk Hitler has Matt's worst performances.
Yes, yep.
Where he has so much being asked of him.
But that whole dying sequence with the cane and all of that on the
floor, it just doesn't work for me.
It just, that is the Nadir of his performance to the doctor.
And I think he's absolutely brilliant.
And that on top of my dislike of the whole Mel storyline.
But I do like all the Tesla Electa stuff and that sort of thing.
It just doesn't work for me.
The gangers doesn't work for me.
Although I like a lot of good man goes towards ruined by stuff at
the end.
And then we head into night terrors, which I just, like I just
wanted to turn it off.
Poor night terror.
But for me, the story that really did come up, in my opinion, was
the wedding of the song.
And that sort of rescued a lot of the whole arc and I understand
that really surprising, you know?
He's so clever he does pull it together.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's great too, because we're used to the big dumb explosive
finale and this one deals with the arc as a kind of throwaway gag
at the end of the episode.
It's really, there's a lightness of touch to it because we've
already had the doctor dying in episode one and it's all
overwrought and you've got, you know, again, Karen's reaction to
it, really selling it.
And so to have it a joke at the end, like, it's fun.
Yeah.
And it feels like the 1st fun that Stevens had this season.
I said last season that I would be interested to see Stephen
Moffatt fail, and that's not because I wanted him to produce a bad
episode, but I thought, he's been so consistently brilliant up
until this point, that I wanted to see an episode where he doesn't
quite make it work and how interesting that would be.
And all of his episodes this season include the opening 2 parter
in this, but certainly a good man goes to war and lets kill
Hitler.
He doesn't quite make it work even though all of the episodes are
packed with interest and cleverness.
And yet by the wedding of River song.
I think he has made it work. has that lightness of touchback.
I was going to ask you, Peter, like, about Stephen Moffatt
failures because that was something on my list.
Like, you know, how do you feel about his failures this season?
I mean, you'd rather watch a Stephen Moth at failure over Curse of
the Black Spot any day.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, at all.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's just, it's, it's the inverse of last season where last
season you looked forward to every arc episode because you knew
that Stephen Moffatt was going to be writing it, and it was
invariably going to be great.
Whereas this season, as we said, some of the single episodes are
the best episodes.
And so it feels a little bit topsy-turvy.
I find that I like the girl who waited a lot more than I expected
and it was a little bit like Amy's choice last year where I just
sort of thought it's sort of very high concept and very Star Trek
and stuff like that, and I wasn't sort of super into it, but I do
think that the girl who waited is so lifted by Nick Curran, that
it is one of the best episodes of the series.
It's one of the very few Doctor Who episodes where you can
tangibly see the input of the director and how he was raised to
the material, which is already good.
Well, I think the god complex is the same.
Yep.
Yeah.
I like girl who waited this time around because we get to see how
good Karen is.
Yeah.
And I've forgotten that 1st time around.
I was conflating, you know, the narrative with the actor, but now
I can see, she she really convinced me.
Yeah.
Well, Richard, like we're on the same wavelength because I've said
it a 1000 times now.
Like, I really didn't like Karen the 1st time through, and looking
at things now, it's more a case of the character of Amy at times
rather than actually Karen, whose performances, I think, really do
elevate stuff, and I really like her so much more.
In so many episodes, this season and the Madame Kavarian scene is
just like the pinnacle of all of those things.
But I'm not going to discount, like, I think Arthur Darvel is the
unsung hero of so many things.
He's just there all the time and I think his performances are spot
on and I really, really adore him.
So I'm just going to talk about the 3 who, you know, and of course
man is stunning and this team are really, really strong.
And it's a shame in a, I was going to say, it's a shame in a way
but it's sort of like Stephen doesn't want to let them go.
No.
And I think narratively, the whole exit of Amy and Rory towards
the end of the season, and then the doctor revisiting them in
closing time and then seeing them in the Christmas special as we
leave a place for you, and the fact that, you know, they know that
he's alive because River has told her parents.
To me, it's sort of like it could be a nice place to leave them as
a positive, like, you know, that our friend, the doctor's still
out there and he will still visit us, but we will move on with our
lives.
We can let go of my imaginary friends.
But we have to come back next year and we have to have a different
ending and it has to not be good or happy or happy families.
Do you know what I mean?
You've already touched on the fact what will happen to other
companions.
It's like Stephen can give his companions no joy.
Nobody and maybe Russell set it up a bit too, is that, you know
you travel with a doctor and it's all going to end not in a happy
place.
And it's sort of like I would really like that to happen, you
know?
I really do like the fact that the doctor lets Amy and Rory go to
an extent and we see them again in closing time.
I really do like that.
And if that was all we saw of them in the end, like in the
Christmas special, then I would be really, really happy with their
arc.
And that scene at the end of the God complex is fantastic.
It's really really good.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's a great companion departure.
I think that Russell does have the idea that the companion should
be better off having travelled with a doctor.
Rose's family gets fixed and they're wealthy and her dad is back.
Martha has been through something, but she's a strong person and
is deciding to leave on her own terms to look after her family.
And I guess we feel bad because Donna's sort of robbed of that.
But we still see that she's marrying someone nice who, and they're
going to win the lottery and all of that sort of thing.
So they're kind of going to be better off.
That's very true.
There is positives in Russell's.
There are some negatives as well getting to that point.
Yeah, yeah.
Moffatt doesn't do that.
You know, like 2 of the companions become a doctor or are dead and
become the doctor.
And then Amy and Rory are trapped somewhere miserable with no Wi
Fi for the rest of their lives.
I just think it's terrible.
Rose says it, doesn't she?
in Parting of the Way.
She says the doctor shows you a better way of living your life.
Yeah.
And yeah, no one can make that claim for Amy and Rory or Clara, you
know.
Closing time. is another one that I was a bit down on previously
and I actually like it as a nice little light story at the end of
the season.
I don't think it's as good as episode last year.
It needed a Leela, didn't it?
It would have been over in 7 minutes.
No, we do get the cyber mats.
Yeah, good.
Love the cyber thingies.
Do you know what I really would have liked in that episode?
I would have liked to see Cole where James Corden, even though I
think he's very good in the lodger, leaves at the start and the
doctor has the episode with Daisy Haggard.
Daisy Haggard and Stormageddon.
Absolutely, with Stormageddon.
It does get a bit boys club.
I can see why because we're showing a Gormous boy who is, you know
has never really managed his life.
He's got a lot of confidence issues and therefore he's the fanboy
of many who's watching it.
I'm not going to use the word I always use.
But 2 men and a baby, isn't it?
Exactly.
That kind of thing.
And I think with, but yeah, I'd rather, I'd rather have Daisy.
Stephen could have written a sequel.
How about 2 men and a goo baby with the doctor and Rory and the
goo baby and the TARDIS?
That would be amazing.
Oh, no, it's splattered on the floor.
Amy.
I think that was written from Stephen having to deal with the
children's. being vomited on.
That milky flow.
Well, qua...
Baby spew.
Yes.
So speaking of which, snog marry, avoid.
The silence, the gangers, the test selector.
Wow, I think you marry the Tesla Ector, because...
Ouch, though.
It's still got hard edges.
Well, I don't know, you know, like one day he's Tom Hardy, you
know, one day he's Nantor from what we do in the shadows.
I can see it.
One day he's Agrorian from Blake 7.
Absolutely.
Oh, wait.
Am I snogging or marrying him?
I'm marrying him and then repeatedly snogging him.
I would snog the silence because however horrific it is, I
wouldn't remember it when I turned away.
We've all been to...
We've all...
We've all been to conventions in a year.
That's right That's right.
That's what alcohol's for.
And what's the other one?
The gangers. the gangers because they're in a terrible two-part
story.
I think I'd have to marry the silence because that would be
amazing.
You come home after a busy day and not have to say anything.
Blessed silent.
DJ Alpha T, scarfunk, soul beats.
Ask this.
Do you think there was anything left unresolved?
I always thought the silence tunnels under the earth were a
dangling plot point?
And what's the revelation as to what the silence are in the day of
the doctor or misstep?
We won't talk about that last bit till we get there.
But at this point, were there any points left unsold, and of
course, the tunnels under the earth was a dangling plot point?
Well, you know the tractators could have used them.
Exactly.
Leaves us open for another tractor invasion.
Another visit to Kolkakron.
My favourite planet.
Maybe Madame Cavarian, because, like, although she's killed in the
well, left to die in the alternative timeline.
We never do see her again.
Do we?
No, but I think she's dead because we saw her dead on telly.
You know, Stephen brings characters back when they're dead because
he doesn't care because he knows it's all made up.
But I think having seen her die and kind of plead for mercy and
stuff is so great.
I'm just saying that happened, even if the alternate timeline gets
erased or whatever, she's totally dead.
I think that the silence, and I think we said it at the time.
It is that thing where suddenly the silence have been with us
because, did I say it's like Scaroth's day off or the Fendal's day
off, you know, you know, influencing human history and evolution
and there's no way to square that with anything else that's ever
happened in Doctor Who.
But I kind of don't care.
So, yes, there's tunnels under the earth and we're all
repeatedly.
This is the thing that we keep running across silence in our
everyday lives and we kill them and then we forget about it and
we've all done it.
Todds killed bunches of them.
Oh, yes, you know how I like the odd genocide.
I do like that idea, though, that it points in human history, Theo
Ransom and the silence are facing off over who's going to
influence WAP bit.
That's right and scare us.
They going, I invented the wheel.
I invented the wheel.
I still want to know how the Botswain got taken to that horrible
space corridor ship with the AI.
That's my plot point.
Yeah, well, that's the scene where Lee Ross gets just edited out
by mistake and disappears and it is a massive flaw in that
episode.
Like it's a kind of act of incompetence that I think we're fairly
seen in the new series. up to this point Yeah.
It's something about the grammar of television that just doesn't
doesn't happen and yet does in that episode.
And so it leaves you feeling a little bit uneasy about kind of the
decisions that are being made and how much focus is being put on
things.
All right, Blaine Coglan asks this.
Given that the climax of a good man goes to war is more revelation
than actual cliffhanger, would the almost people have provided a
more shocking midseason finale?
I don't think you can go to a mid-season break with Amy collapsing
into goo.
It's just too traumatic.
And that cliffhanger is horrible because then she wakes up in the
tube.
I just don't want to have that unresolved for 6 weeks, I think.
It would have been more shocking.
I'm a big fan of the cliffhanger that's a revelation or, you know
what are we going to do next rather than just sort of
straightforward peril, I think.
And so I like that.
You know, the doctor is searching for melody during the mid-season
break.
You know, the doctor goes off with a mission and then we check in
on his mission and it's been months since we've watched the show
and we imagine the doctor on that quest during that time.
See, that's interesting because like, I wanted to see that quest.
That's the things I want to see.
When we have time junks where we're suddenly at a point further
along the track, it all just seems so simple.
And certainly with the cybermen, just been relegated to a scene
right?
And getting to that point would have been quite difficult, but it
makes it just seem so easy to defeat them, you know, with big
explosions and everything like that.
So part of my dislike of that whole plot thing is that I would
have liked to have seen peril and deadly danger for the doctor and
Rory as a team to find out where his companion and his wife are
you know.
And I think that would have paid off for me so much more.
But that's obvious, you know, that's not the narrative that modern
television necessarily or Stephen wants to go in, but for me
that's one of the changes that I would have liked, you know?
And yes, Amy may not have been around, but even if we'd had a two
parter and and, you know, something to do with, say, Vastra, Strax
and Jenny and seeing an introduction to have actually met the
doctor and that sort of thing rather than, I mean, it's great that
they've been introduced and their characters like Stephen likes
introducing these characters.
Oh, yes, with potential, and we're going to see them again, and
they might play things of Stephen for a little while, you know, but
that's what I would have liked to have seen.
Yeah.
That would have been a more traditional arc if we'd seen that kind
of quest storyline.
And Stephen's not interested in telling that this season, is he?
No.
And I think, too, that he is happy to just let us infer
backstory.
I mean, there is a there's a kind of, is there an introduction to
her somewhere buried on a DVD box set or something.
Anyway, I think there is some kind of backstory somewhere.
But it's not what he's interested in.
The characters are here, you know, whatever, I think.
And I think that's okay.
It's just that we want we want to be able to write our TARDIS
WIKEA entry for them and he deliberately frustrates us at every
point.
I think.
It's like the character of Lorna Bucket and a good man goes to war
isn't it?
Exactly.
Yeah.
She's kind of like she's there and she has backstory with him and
she's actually not a very well developed character and so she's
part of a disappointment of that episode because her death is
built up to mean something and doesn't actually mean something.
So maybe that's the story of this season where things are built up
to mean something and don't quite hit, Lorna with an ill.
Speaking of which, snog marry avoid.
Lorna Bucket, Val, or Joy.
Kind of like the idea of just getting them all together for a very
exciting stock take after the doors after the shop's all closed.
And Linda would have, you know, Linda would say, oh, I've just got
some little tea cakes and just brings out this huge 2 litre bottle
of duty-free gin.
And then enjoy and joy would always clean up after herself always
even if she's made her own mess by scattering her body parts all
over the room.
She would still be kind enough and thoughtful enough.
And then the other one was was...
I have no memory of these women.
Are you sure?
These are the missing episodes.
Yeah, no, I think we could have a lot of cheeky fun and there'd be
cybermats.
So you know, there'd be a chase.
There'd be fun.
It'd be like, you know, like a paper.
No, I think I think we could all have a lot of fun in the room
together.
Look, their hips would give way.
You couldn't even get near to them to snog them let alone.
What do you think of Steven's treatment of gay characters this
season in terms of having Canton?
and then we've got the thin...
The thin one in the fact?
It's all treated as a big fat boy.
Sorry, Peter.
Is it the big, fat, boring gaze?
We're right here, are we?
feeling really attacked right now.
I don't like how he throws in in us.
Oh, look, we're throwing in a surprise and look how shocking and
surprising this is.
I really, no, totally, or at least in the way it's structured in
the story, using it as the startling revelation, it may not be
that greater way to introduce a queer character and he does it, not
just the wants, could forgive it if it was maybe just the ones.
Oh, look, they're gay.
Yeah, and the point is, I actually don't mind the revelation that
Canton is gay because we like him and we've seen him work with the
doctor and he's funny and stuff.
So we're disposed to like him and then we discover he's gay.
And then we get Richard Nixon pulling the comedy face as well
which I just think is really hilarious.
That actor is superb.
He is superb.
So I kind of like that because it also just kind of shows how
unpleasant Nixon is as well.
Like it challenges Nixon.
What actually gets really accurate.
We talked about this.
It's actually really accurate to what we now know Nixon was like
as a human being.
And if he wasn't, I don't want to use medical terms, but he was so
dissociated from human involvement and understanding of human
relations and emotions that he actually said to, this was before
Watergate.
He, you know, he said to one of the cameramen, did you enjoy a
consummation this weekend?
of your relationship.
It was actually used a word even more vulgar than that.
But it was very clinical.
And he really didn't understand the connection between, it was, it
was, it was all very meta for our Mr. Nixon.
Well, he had been driven mad by the constant presence of the
silence. and I kind of like that.
They kind of rareify his paranoia and the constant phone calls at
all hours from little girls.
And then the other one is the fat one and the thin one and the fat
one gets killed and awesome.
Are we doing Bondfinger?
Diamonds are forever.
Yes, that's right.
And I just think, again, he has no idea about the church at all
and, you know, doesn't realise the Anglican church is populated by
fat and thin gay people who are married to one another, and it's
not absolutely that unusual.
So I don't know.
He's not very good at it.
He's trying.
There were no queer people in series 5 at all.
So he has at least nodded in our direction.
And we didn't mention Jenny and Vastra as well.
Yeah.
I also like the constant mistaking of the doctor and Craig as a
gay couple because it's done with charm. with warmth and it's sort
of seen through Al's eyes.
It's being something that's really nice.
So I like that.
Yeah, I think that one did work.
He got it right by the end, yeah.
Also two, those last 2 episodes.
There is that joy coming back.
Like there's a weight getting lifted after all of this, which is
great at the end of the season, which is again going back to why I
think I really do like that little run at the end.
The joy is coming back.
I must have missed Joy coming back.
She unexploded in the corner of the toilet.
All right, snog marrying avoid.
Captain Avery, Idris, house.
Idris is too bitey, no snogging.
Ah, no.
It's like snogging only someone wins.
Well, obviously, Captain Avery.
Yeah, it's a no.
No, he's really hot.
He seems to floss too, which is comfort in those times.
He has very good tea for the 17th century or whatever we are, the
16th century.
Does come with baggage, though.
But he loses it very quickly.
He doesn't seem to be able to hold on to any family members for
very, very length of time. making on for Downton Abbey now. his
own personal life, which we're not going to go into.
And what about house?
Michael Sheen?
He's lovely.
And sinister, but...
You can do a Kenneth Williams. you won't be bored.
No, I could marry him.
I don't think he'd last long.
Not in your current form anyway.
No, well, there's that.
Yeah, and avoid interest because of the biting.
I wonder how we'd go if these questions were about the writers.
It's not that.
No we won't go there.
But I do want to ask this question.
What do you think of the oldest question hidden in plain sight?
Well, Revelation.
Old since 1963.
Yeah, it's in the opening credits of the 1st episode.
It's the 1st question.
That's what it means, hidden in plain sight. right there.
Well, fortunately, Chibers has solved it all.
Yeah, he's going to answer it.
Okay, how did you feel about that?
That's a good question.
How did you feel about that as the season finale as the last and
that lovely shot of Matt with the TARDIS behind him?
I was so excited.
Like I actually felt an adrenaline rush.
It's sort of like we're going back to how it all began where the
doctor's not known.
It's all going to be fresh and new and I just really love the
referencing of that, you know?
If only we knew that Stephen didn't police punches because he
keeps trying to reset the series to this and then fails when he
comes up with his next brilliant idea.
Yeah, yeah.
And like, I think that the acknowledgement that the doctor is
famous is reasonable given that he's actually famous in the real
world and the idea that he's a terrible threat.
Again, you know, there's been 100s of stories where he's blown
people up and all of that kind of thing.
And so making that part of the narrative behaving as if that's
actually really happened, you know, kind of interrogating the
premise.
The entire population of divsham is still experiencing afterglow
aren't they?
That's right And so, you know, like, I think it's unavoidable.
And the classic series, I think, does the doctor is famous every
so often, but doesn't do the sort of he's a deadly threat to
everyone in the entire universe.
Although Tom in his last season or two.
Yeah.
I have to take him to a whole other universe where no one knows
who he is.
Yeah, by the time the doctor is literally saving the universe.
He's got to have some level of fame.
Yeah.
In a season of many different guest stars, is there anybody that
stands out for you in terms of performance or character?
I mean, there's, I mean, there's so many from Hugh Bonneville, to
Saran Jones, I think Amarakara, who plays Rita, as a potential
companion, I think, is very good.
Oh, I think she's easily the best guest actor in the entire
thing.
I think she's absolutely extraordinary.
So good, so incredibly good.
She brings that character to absolute life.
And also, I think Dmitri Leonidas, who plays Howie, is another
maybe slightly lesser example, because America is fantastic, but
he also does sterling work with bringing that character to life in
the gold complex.
It's a reason why I really like that episode because it has a
number of really well-drawn, interesting characters played well
and you can't say that for every episode this season.
David Williams, as Gibbess, I think, does a really good job of
that character.
Like, I mean, asking somebody to play under all that makeup too
you know, as a guest artist.
I think it's really good that he did that, you know?
I think a lot of people would have turned it down based on that
fact.
I don't think David Williams would have turned a role in Doctor
Who down.
I think he's a big giant nerd.
And then, obviously, Matt Lucas gets to out doing it.
That's right.
I think part of Russell's upcoming master plan will be a Gibbonson
nod all spinoff.
Maybe.
Rita needed to credibly be a possible companion for the episode to
work.
The episode is kind of about that.
It's a companion harvester, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, she's so good.
Holy crap.
She's unbelievably great.
Some of us were disappointed he didn't take them in a tour.
Yes.
Some of us have been disappointed with that since the time
monster.
Or what, you, me?
I didn't get to do the voice in that one neither.
My new companion, Dave Prowse.
So I don't know where they're using my voice for Darth Vader.
All right, we've got a couple of, um, award nominations.
And so we always do.
Do we have any Jenny Laird Award nominations this year?
Yeah, mine goes to Stephen Moffatt, and it is for thinking that
the pregnancy thing would work in Doctor Who.
Yeah, we're all thinking the same thing.
That's the major.
That's the summit.
That's the thing everyone's looking at thing.
It's frosty up there, isn't it?
Don't want to go up there, no.
It's littered and scattered with things you don't want to
encounter.
Yeah, no, I agree.
And then there's some poor creative choices of just the unevenness
of a script.
I think the reason, though, that stories like Knight Terrors and
one of the other ones we didn't like so much just keeps coming
back to me as an Nigeria.
Cursing the congees.
Yeah.
It's simply that in a traditional season.
So if you put this in season 15, they'd probably stood out.
It's just that we're getting such highs and lows and that the
expectations and production values and all the rest of it and the
rapidity and wit in the scripts.
There's a lot more density dramatically now.
And I think you've hit the nail on the head, the expectation.
We had series 4, which really incredible.
And then we had series five, which, again, and so you just keep
expecting that every year you're going to hit the mark and that
doesn't happen. that's not reality.
You just can't keep that sustainability at that level all the
time.
And if we don't meet those expectations, then you kind of are down
on something.
Like I've said for quite a long time that this is probably my
least light Stephen Moffat series. agree.
I don't know whether that's going to be the case.
I see so many more positives, but there are certain minefields to
get through in season.
And as we said earlier, there are some really great bits as well.
Like doctor's wife, girl who waited, the god complex, but the good
bits don't come where you expect that they will.
Yes.
Yeah, we're not meeting those expectations.
Any other nominations?
I would nominate the whole of the gangers, just because already
it's quite a problematic bland script, not really dealing well
with the issues which it's trying to deal with, and then overlaid
on that.
I think the direction misses, and then on top of that, they drain
the colour out of it also, it's difficult to watch.
So it's just a whole big mess of bad Jenny Ladd choices.
In fact, maybe Jenny Laird award can go to the terrible lighting
in the 1st half of the series. from Impossible Astronaut all the
way through to the end of the Kangers 2 parter.
It's turned the goddamn lights on someone.
It might actually be post because I'm thinking back to film at the
time too.
When I did animation, which is now 20 years ago, the folk that
ended up doing the best out of that and are still getting paid the
highest are the folk that do the digital grading, the compositors
at the end of it.
And the fashion at the time, you think about films around this
time, 10, 11 years ago, everything was freaking drained.
Yeah.
And almost sepia. was so fashionable and chic.
And it's annoying.
I agree.
It's annoying.
But it's interesting you're talking about the gangers episodes
which I haven't really commented on and now feel the need to.
I really dislike Jen as a character.
And I really, I really dislike the CGI when she becomes a monster
builds for me.
But, Nathan, you did talk about Cleave's journey, and it's
something that has made me sort of reevaluate that aspect of the
story.
There is a glimmer in there because in my notes, looking back on
it, it was something that I did comment about, like too, not as
articulated as what you did in the episode, but it's something
that I did notice there was more to that, where I just sort of
tarnished the whole thing with that one horrible brush.
Yeah.
But nothing can save those 2 episodes for me, the whole baby goo
thing, the whole melts into river and the appalling performance
sequence with Matt Smith in that episode.
Like those things are just front and century in my mind.
But I've got to take myself out of that because there is so much
to really like in this season.
That said, though, you can always find things that you'll enjoy
even in the bits that you don't.
So when Matt comes out of the TARDIS to do that prolonged dying
scene, which is asking far too much of any actor, he is dressed as
Marlena Dietrich.
And of course, if you're going to come out of Latardis and do your
big turn in pre-war Germany, that's what you're going to look
like.
He's not doing Fred Astaire.
Von Sternberg's Blue Angel.
You're right.
He is okay.
He's the boys in the back room, they'll have.
You'd appreciate that, Richard.
I've got a trick hip.
Yes.
Yeah.
There's a lot that needs rescuing in this season.
Ooh.
But on the flip side is the Bonnie Langford.
Startling discovery, is there?
Nick Horan.
Sorry, I've stolen everyone else's.
I think absolutely.
And you remember my reaction to the leisure hive, which is a story
that is experimental visually and just so much better and more
interesting than what's come before.
I think Nick Curran does that with a god complex.
Yes, I think that's a really good nomination.
Mine is for Karen Gillan's hair. because she has wonderful hair
throughout this entire season and I think that then affects the
subtlety in her performance as well.
I think it just adds to that.
It's like a hair.
Like I mean, it's all about the hair for me.
Like if you talk about Sarah Jane Smith.
I think Sarah Jane's hair in season 13 is the perfect length
right?
And so Sarah goes through different phases from short, medium long
and extra long right at the end, but she has this golden patch.
And so for me, with Karen's hair, it's sort of like, this is the
revelation about how good she is.
You also like Dodo's hair.
Just stop it.
This is why I've been pointing to it.
The entire year.
It has to be said that Karen does have magical hair because even
when she's aged 36 years, It still has that beautiful organ tune
to it.
Well, they doll the red down, which as we know happens in real
life for most of us as well.
Yes.
I was a lovely, almost virtual titian.
I was never that light, but yeah, no, yeah.
Life, like cinematography tends to drain the colour out of us the
longer the season we go.
Like the gangers.
The gangers.
Yes.
It's a good point if we just come back to that, because actors do
give a stronger or more cohesive performance if they feel
confident in the role, and as P.G. Woodhouse, and Bo Brum will
both say, if you put a good suit on them, put a good boiler on
them, you're going to get a better show.
Clothes maketh man.
Yeah, I think there might be something too that.
So finally, looking to the future.
I always ask, where does series 7A slash 7B?
Sit with you before we embark on that journey.
Um, I think there's some good stuff in it in both halves.
I don't like, we've talked about this before, possibly.
I don't like the way that Amy and Rory leave at all, but I think
they're sort of fun to be had.
I actually miss the complexity a bit.
But it's nice to try new things and, you know, I think there are
some reasonably entertaining things in there.
So I'm kind of looking forward to it.
Peter?
I'm definitely looking forward to series 7 A because I think it
regains some of the fun that's been a bit diminished this season.
And I think it's a series of very strongest. episodes.
I haven't seen them in a long time, so I may revise this opinion
but I think it's a series of strong episodes.
And I wouldn't have thought that I'd said that about a mini-season
with 2 chipmil episodes, but there we go.
Richard.
And I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes next because I
haven't watched them since they 1st went out.
My memory is very dim.
I'm glad to hear they're not amongst the lost episodes and so we
will be able to see them and review them next year.
Really no memory at all.
Is there a giant squid in it and some and 7 sexy rituals and a
methane extractor, I believe?
Conflating that.
Yeah, no, I have no memory.
And I like doing these.
I don't know if you've been doing them the same way.
I know Nathan hasn't, but not watching them until we're going to
do the stories and then you're, oh, ah, and that's when, like Todd
my opinions have been really revised to the point that it's just a
flip.
It's a pancake flip.
Oh, I hated her.
I don't quite like her now.
Yeah, for me, I'm very much like you, Peter.
I really think that that set of 5 episodes at the beginning of
next season is quite strong consistently, and I'm with Nathan, the
writing out of Amy and Rory is problematic.
In terms of Clara, like I really think that I really love Jenna
Coleman in the 1st episode and in the Christmas, that those
versions of golf Clara after that.
Well, I still think she's a great actress, but am I going to find
that I find the 2nd half of the season much more forgettable
although I will say this, that there is one episode in there which
I absolutely detested beyond all imagining at the time.
Cold War hide.
That's your toy maker.
It's not Journey to the Senator Tatars, which I still...
Rings of Ackerton.
Yeah, which are absolutely detested at the time.
Yeah, I did too.
I'm looking forward to seeing what I think about.
But I have seen it since.
And I reversed my opinion.
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.
We'll be back at Christmas to get our Narnia on in the doctor, the
widow, and the wardrobe.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us at Flight 3 Entirety on Facebook at
FTE podcast on Twitter and on our website, flightthroughentirety
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger
Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek
project.
Until next time, sweetheart, I think Mummy might need another
drink.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
Chin Chin.
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Beelby, Nathan
Bottomley, Peter Griffithson, Richard Stone.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, Playthings of Stephen, was recorded on the 28th of
November 2021 and released on the 19th of December.
That's the end of our Series 6 coverage, and so we'd like to thank
everyone who's joined us on the couch over the last few weeks.
Maxwell Coviello, Stephen and Dan from New To Who podcast, Simon
Moore, Adam Richard, Kevin Bernard, Corey McMahon, Syhart, Conrad
Westmus, Joe Ford and Jack Shanahan.
What do you think of the child actors this season?
Besides Toby Avery?
Oscarloid is Toby Avery, who I think is a bit older?
And if I was to include Lily Arnell from the Christmas special at
the end of the season, who I actually think is quite good.
What do you think of the other assorted children?
I thought George was sweet.
I really like George.
Yeah, I taught George sweet as well.
Damn him.
He's just a kid.
He's just a little boy.
Don't blink, George.
No, but I mean, clearly, clearly... that is... grab that pillow
and smother him, Todd.
These are awful.
I hate it.
He and Cyril can team up.
Some bloody Cyril Arnold.
I think I've been triggered. triggered.
We forget to the list here at home.
I hate the bit.
They are terrible children.
For the listener at home, we have to remember what our podcasters
do for a living.
It's so surprising that Toby delivered such a good performance
because he'd been kicked in the ed buyer.
I'm still laughing about that because I said it and your laughter
at that point. episode.
I just kept going back.
Oh, yeah, scintillating things.
Like, you know, dragged through a hedge and kicked.
Because when you say it, you don't realise how funny it is.
So you deliver it completely straight.
It's really great.
It's one of my favourite moments from this season to fly through
entirety.
I think Stephen should have come up with that.
I think that child actors could have been kicking their hair by
our horse this season.
Sorry.
Blackwood's very good.
She is always.
In fact, the 3 kids in the flashbacks are great.
How can I just say?
Except for Rory, maybe.
No, that little Rory is so confusing.
He's so convincing is a little gory.
He's too glormless.
It just undermines Rory yet again.
That's what I don't like about it.
I just think he's such a little dweeby thing.
It's sort of like, oh, please, you're going to have to cuddle
this.
Oh, well look.
Child actors, they're not getting...
Exactly. damaged best psyche for their entire adult lives.
Who knows?
Yeah that's right.
Perhaps.
All right, Baby Rory's robbed a convenience store now.
So he's got convention appearances.
No I made that up.
Allegedly.
Alright.
Keeping all this.
Yeah.
These are stayers.
Marry this guy.
This is the show.
This is it.
You're doomed, all of you.
All right, we've got a couple of award nominations.
And so we always do.
Do we have any Jenny Laird Award nominations?