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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:43:22

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Hello, Delissa, and welcome back to Flights of Entirety, the only

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Doctor Who podcast Flying through the entirety of Doctor Who as a

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penance for all that torture and vivisection we did.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Stephen.

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Well, it's Nevada 1817, and it's time for a reckoning with our

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past and the doctors and the other doctors.

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It's a remake of the gunfighters with acting, production design

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and some kind of moral message.

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We've got weird facial markings and a backpack full of souls.

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It's a town called Mercy.

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So, Stephen, is this one of your favourites?

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Look, it's not.

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And it's one of those episodes that I probably have seen twice

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prior to preparing for this podcast and I thought, well, that was

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an episode of Doctor Who.

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It wasn't particularly offensive or inoffensive.

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It was just an episode of Doctor Who.

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And then earlier this year, I had the pleasure of being invited to

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Pete's 30th birthday party on top of Sydney tower, and we got

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chatting about series 7 and we got chatting about this particular

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episode.

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And the number of things that Pete eloquently said, made me think

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oh, hang on a 2nd.

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I should probably go back and revisit that So I think what's

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probably happening in the meantime is that I've learned to admire

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this more than I have.

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But I'm still not sure if I like it anymore than I did the 1st

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time that I watched it, which was, you know, if we were to sort of

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apply a rating, maybe a 5.5 out of 10.

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Oh, thanks, Tom.

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I remember that conversation with you where we spent quite a few

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minutes talking about a town called Mercy, and I stand by my

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conviction on it, that this is the most precious thing in the

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Doctor Who universe.

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This is a really strong standalone episode.

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I recall that too, because you turned to me and said, James, put

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us on that episode.

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I remember that as well.

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I didn't really raise it very highly when I 1st saw it.

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It's the Todd experience again, but I think it is extremely strong

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and it is partly down to some really, really good central

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performances.

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So we've got Adrian Scarborough as Carla Jackson.

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And we have Matthew Smith as the doctor.

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And I think he is really absolutely extraordinary in this.

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It may actually be his best performance as the doctor.

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I'm just putting that out there.

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Yeah, I think it probably is close to it.

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I had thought that the longer that Matt goes on the more kind of

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the more matt-like he becomes.

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You know, he does, yeah, he does the usual Matt things.

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But here he finds interesting things to do with just about every

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line.

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And there's some thought and complexity.

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And I don't know.

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I get the impression that Matt's very instinctive rather than sort

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of cerebral, but his instincts are good and I think he does a

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great job here.

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So can I jump ahead to talk about that scene inside the space pod

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Carla Jackson's pod, which I think might be the best scene that

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Matt Smith ever films for Doctor Who.

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So when he is watching the war crimes on the screen and he

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realises what Carla Jex has done and it's all, the images are

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flickering over his face.

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And he does a very, like what we remember Matt Smith form, what we

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celebrate him for is the fact that he does really great business

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and he gives off slightly off the wall reactions and things and

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he's very doctor-ish, but he just, he completely underplays it.

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He watches what's happening.

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He just looks away with a look of kind of indefinable sadness and

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disgust on his face and then has to look back at the screen and

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take it in.

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And I think it might be his finest acting moment, Doctor.

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He clearly is forcing himself to look back and it's all just in

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the performance.

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There's no dialogue in that at all.

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I just found one where there's a scene towards the end of the

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episode where an angry mob comes to kind of lynch, Carla Jax, and

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the doctor is the marshal, and he's there to defend him, and

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there's that young man, the 18 year old boy.

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And the doctor confronts him and does the sort of thing.

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You know, it's like, it's like Sylvester McCoy talking the snipers

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down from the balcony and the happiness patrol only much better.

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And then he turns around, walks between Amy and Rory, and then

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just gives this smile, this happy smile, and it's kind of like

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what's that?

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What are you doing there?

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It's such an odd choice.

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And it's just his capacity to surprise you with thoughtful

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interesting things. whether it's business, whether it's facial

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expressions.

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I've talked about his anger.

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And I think when he has heard about Jax's crimes and then comes

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back to confront him and he absolutely underplays that, except for

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one moment, he says, sit down and then he shouts it.

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And when he shouts, it's so terrifying.

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And Adrian Scarborough actually recoils in the house.

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Yeah, and falls onto the bed. ice becoming fire.

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No, absolutely.

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I agree with you that that Matt is really good here, Pete. and

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Nathan, all those examples that you've pointed to.

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There's that wonderful dichotomy about Matt's doctor, which is

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that, you know, old man trapped in the young man's body and that

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ancient being actually trapped in a young man's body, that we see

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moments like that.

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And of course, like the silliness that comes from that youthful

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exuberance from the actor himself, you know, things like, you know

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the opening lines around, you know, dry clean only, and, you know

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has someone seen my Christmas list, all of that is just

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wonderfully doctorish, as you say, Pete.

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I think it's aided by the fact that the doctor, this is a story

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about the doctor and it's sort of played out through 3 characters

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that all sort of like foils it for him.

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And, you know, Amy doesn't have a great deal to do, like, or

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really, what's Rory doing there?

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This is a very doctor specific and doctor centric episode and I

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think Matt really rises to that.

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I do agree with that.

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And that's probably one of the things that I've reappraised in

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coming back to it.

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I think you're right.

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When we were watching it just now, we were talking a little bit

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about the fact that, of course, the doctor is in some sense, as a

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war criminal, and perhaps a worse one than Carla Jex, but the

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episode doesn't kind of lean into it, and it doesn't make the

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mistake of giving us a sort of goopy speech about how the doctor

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feels bad about killing all the people on Gallifrey or whatever.

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We kind of just take it as red.

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And Jex recognises that in the doctor, but that's basically it

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isn't it?

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There's that terrifying scene where he just drags Jex out and

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pushes him over the line so that the gunslinger can get him.

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And I think you have to read that as his self-hatred, in a way

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that he's reacting to something injects that is present in

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himself.

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I think that's true.

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And I think one of the things that I think Toby Whouse does really

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well is right to a theme.

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And the theme is often exploring what the doctor's moral dimension

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and aspects are.

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And here what we have is, um, there's a discourse of choice

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between the utilitarian argument, and that's that trolly problem, I

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guess, where certainly up until probably is at the end of act

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two.

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Um, you know, Matt Smith has, or the doctor has very much sort of

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reverted to that because he spent too much time away from his

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companions. you know, who are the moral, moral force in his life

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as against that sort of more moral argument, a more moral sort of

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aspect about doctor, which, you know, very much sort of comes into

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play in that 3rd act and the resolution tool.

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Although I'm not sure the resolution is quite as tidy as it should

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be, and I'll talk about that later on, perhaps, but this is

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definitely like a story about whether the doctor chooses to do

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good on the basis of the, you know, the um, the utilitarian

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principle, the greatest good for the greatest number.

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Or whether actually there's a higher standard, uh, to which the

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character should be, should be held.

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And I think that's always fascinating.

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And I think it is something that Toby Whithouse has written

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particularly well here, for the most part.

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And I think also it's something that he likes to do again and

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again, like the way in which there's a character or a foil for the

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doctor in the other episodes that he's written, whether it's, you

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know, Tony Head's character, in school reunion, whether it's

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actually the, the, uh, the minor tour slash Naimon in in the god

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complex, there's a sort of, you know, a correlation against, uh

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the doctor's, um, and Carla Jax, I guess, in this one as well.

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Um, I think it's, I think it's super fascinating.

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And there's definitely sort of emotional depth to be mined there

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and philosophical depth to be mined there.

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So I appreciate that about this story a lot more than perhaps I

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did previously too.

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I mean, I'd love to know which came first, the chicken or the

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eggs.

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So did he set out to make a story about the doctor, as you were

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talking about, and then crafted the character of Carla X, or do

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you come up with the character of Carla X with all that murky

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morality there, and then decide that that would play well with the

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doctor's character and so went there.

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It's why this story works so well for me because it feels like a

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showrunner story.

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That's something that a showrunner would be concerned with.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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I think that's a good point.

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I think what I like, too, is that the answer isn't obvious, and it

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doesn't seem to definitely come down on one side or the other, and

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you have Rory and Amy on opposite sides of the question, should

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the doctor save the people of mercy by pushing Jets over the

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line?

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which is something he clearly deserves.

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Yeah.

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And when the doctor initially finds out about the crimes and the

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gunslinger is there when he gets out of the pod, he says, we can

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put him on trial.

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You don't have to kill him. you don't have to do revenge.

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We can put him on trial and he's shut down.

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He says, look, he hasn't harmed you.

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He's harmed me and my people.

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And so it's going to be my justice that applies.

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And that's reasonable.

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And so that utilitarian argument does seem to work because there

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is a sense in which he's deserved it.

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He's caused harm.

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Those sorts of harms need to be punished because it's important

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that we discourage people from doing it again.

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But there is also the, is the doctor the sort of person who pushes

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people over the line so they can get gunned down by, you know, like

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this week's monster?

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And clearly he isn't that kind of person either.

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And we have someone who has done some good as well.

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And I think that's interesting.

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You know, they position Jex as someone who's saved the town's

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population from cholera.

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So he saved people as well.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think, though, like the story is pushing us in a particular

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direction, and it is in that moral dimension, that higher standard

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that the doctor should be held against, and ultimately plays out

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by the way, in the 50th, like the way that that choice is made in

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the barn, I think very much sort of echos the choice that's made

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here as well, and the realisation that is again, um, only come to

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because of the good of the companions.

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You know, my friends have always been the best to me as a doctor

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has said in the past and here it is, you know, happening again.

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It's clever in the sense that the, the, the setting of the story

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um, sort of helps to, to promote that in, um, mercy, which is a

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town that is, is not named for no reason, right?

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There's essentially one man who, which is Isaac, who really stands

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for this idea of redemption, and the rest of the townsfolk who

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really sort of are standing for this idea of atonement.

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And it's that whole thing about, well, atonement would be, yes

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dragging, you know, Carla Jax and throwing him over that line and

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letting the gunslinger, you know, do what he needs to do and

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justice for to be served.

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But that's not really the point because that higher standard

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around redemption rather than atonement, I think, is something

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that, uh, is played out through the setting of that town of

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mercy.

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00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:31.259
And, you know, the character of Isaac, who then deputises, you

244
00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:34.080
know, his his sheriff's badge to the doctor, who now becomes the

245
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:35.399
figure of redemption as well.

246
00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:40.620
I think that there is a really, really electric scene between the

247
00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:43.440
doctor and Jex, and it's when he's in the prison.

248
00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:49.679
And when he's accusing the doctor of being confused by the fact

249
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:54.600
that he's a good man and a bad man at the same time.

250
00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:58.620
I'm not just one thing, I'm not just a war criminal.

251
00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:03.179
I'm complex because I help people here and you can't handle that.

252
00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:04.980
You don't know how to deal with it.

253
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.919
And the doctor just rejects that completely.

254
00:14:07.980 --> 00:14:12.899
He turns around and says, no, you don't get to do your own

255
00:14:12.899 --> 00:14:13.679
redemption.

256
00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:16.919
You don't get to pay your own price.

257
00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:22.740
You don't get to decide that you're a good person because you've

258
00:14:22.740 --> 00:14:24.720
saved some people in this little town.

259
00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:28.200
I think you compared this to Boomtown.

260
00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:32.399
That's right, where Margaret Slovine says that just because the

261
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.639
doctor accuses her and says you get to live with yourself, because

262
00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:37.320
occasionally you let one of them go.

263
00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:42.000
And so she's convinced herself that she can be a good and moral

264
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.279
person because occasionally she does something rise.

265
00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:45.240
Yeah.

266
00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:46.019
Yeah.

267
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:51.419
And so Jax has evaded justice and evaded punishment and he's

268
00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:55.740
decided that this life that he has, where he's actually quite well

269
00:14:55.740 --> 00:15:00.000
regarded and he's able to help people, that that's sufficient

270
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:06.299
penance, that that's his atonement, and that's not good enough.

271
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.360
And the show doesn't sort of dwell on his crimes.

272
00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:12.659
Like, we get to see the scale of his crimes just through Matt's

273
00:15:12.659 --> 00:15:14.940
reaction in that scene that we had before.

274
00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.879
And through the minisode prequel.

275
00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:20.159
Oh, what was the minisode prequel?

276
00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.320
It's called the making of the gunslinger.

277
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:22.799
Ooh.

278
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:24.720
It's very low budget.

279
00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:30.419
But basically, you know, bits being strapped onto the actor.

280
00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.080
And sounds of like bone sores.

281
00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:34.919
Yeah, okay.

282
00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:37.620
Wasn't that awesome the name of the documentary on the gunfighters

283
00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:38.220
DVD?

284
00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.440
It was very, I think it was the same sound effects that they used

285
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:45.120
in Cybermen.

286
00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:47.639
Yeah, in Battersea Power Station.

287
00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:48.779
Oh, yeah.

288
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.559
So I have a couple of things to say about that.

289
00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:57.240
It's interesting that Jex basically wants to determine his own

290
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.899
goodness or badness and he sort of carries that through.

291
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.440
He doesn't give the gunslinger the chance to have his revenge.

292
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.519
He takes his own life at the end, which is a really, yeah, that's

293
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.580
a morally complex thing because did he get his comeuppance or

294
00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:11.759
not?

295
00:16:11.820 --> 00:16:12.179
Yeah.

296
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.220
Yeah, he gets to go out on his own terms.

297
00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:23.399
And it is expressed in a way like he says that he is relieving

298
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:27.960
he's relieving the gunslinger of the guilt of killing another

299
00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:28.320
person.

300
00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:33.600
So he does say that I'm not going to make you continue with this

301
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.279
war. going to end it for you.

302
00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:38.100
But he does escape on his own terms.

303
00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:41.039
He still decides on his own atonement.

304
00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:43.440
The jury is out on how self- serving that is.

305
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:43.980
Yeah.

306
00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:46.259
He gets to have his cake and exploded too.

307
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.240
But then his TikTok.

308
00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:54.179
But then that scene that I was talking about before continues

309
00:16:54.179 --> 00:17:00.659
because after the doctor has rejected Jex's kind of self

310
00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:05.039
assessment, then we get the talk about what happens to the Carla

311
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.180
in the afterlife.

312
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.660
And that's kind of beautiful and poetic.

313
00:17:09.660 --> 00:17:15.480
And it is a way for him to express the guilt that he is feeling.

314
00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:22.200
Like he, he does feel the weight of all of the people that he's

315
00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:23.160
wronged.

316
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:28.799
I do agree and I think, you know, it really sort of echos and

317
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:30.839
brings to mind Dante's purgatory.

318
00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:33.359
It's just, you know, slightly sort of revised where you're

319
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.079
climbing a mountain, except here you're carrying souls, you know

320
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.920
that you've robbed in the meantime, until you're finally sort of

321
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:42.480
expunged of those sins.

322
00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:47.099
But I think one of the things that sort of um, maybe undermines it

323
00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:50.400
for me, one's about motivation and ultimately it's about

324
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:51.420
resolution as well.

325
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.359
In terms of motivation, the doctor is a war criminal and let's not

326
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:56.700
pretend he isn't because he is, but he's the war criminal who

327
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.059
regrets.

328
00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:59.759
He absolutely regrets his choices.

329
00:17:59.819 --> 00:18:04.319
Whereas, you know, Carla X has stated that he's almost proud of

330
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:04.799
what you did.

331
00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:07.740
You know, half of the population were decimated, so that makes it

332
00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:08.759
what, 5%, Nathan?

333
00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:09.240
Is that right?

334
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.220
Yeah, yeah, that is pretty bad.

335
00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:16.440
I don't think decimate really has to mean 10%, but I do think it's

336
00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:20.220
a problem quoting another fraction in the same sentence.

337
00:18:20.460 --> 00:18:23.400
Didn't they watch the sound of girls?

338
00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:27.119
But he's a war criminal who actually thinks he's a hero.

339
00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:28.980
You know, I ended the war, he says.

340
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.000
And that motivation is something that I don't think quite, you

341
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.779
know, leaves him like, yes, he is fearful of the afterlife, his

342
00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:39.299
you know, his own gods and his own punishment, et cetera, in the

343
00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:39.720
afterlife.

344
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:43.319
But there's something that doesn't quite pay off.

345
00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:46.920
And if we sort of jump now to act 3 in the way that sort of pans

346
00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:47.220
out.

347
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:51.960
The dilemma that's set up isn't, I don't feel particularly well

348
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.440
served in the way that um, Jex basically um, kills himself.

349
00:18:55.500 --> 00:19:00.960
One is sort of adds 20 minutes to the plot after which, uh, you

350
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:05.220
know, the the gun slinger should have shot Jex, uh, at the border

351
00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:05.519
there.

352
00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:09.119
So it sort of feels a bit like padding it unearned.

353
00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:12.180
But the doctor's plan of, you know, getting the, you know, this

354
00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:14.460
war criminal away to then, you know, perhaps go somewhere else

355
00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:17.519
only for the fight to continue, isn't a resolution, is a

356
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:17.940
deferment.

357
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.880
There's something missing there in terms of, well, what is that

358
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.880
redemptive, you know, the doctor is a moral force.

359
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:24.539
What is his plan?

360
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.740
Ultimately, I don't think it sort of reaches that, that sort of

361
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:33.299
that it does in day of the doctor, where we have the absolute, you

362
00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:36.660
know, one most wonderful moments of the doctor's life where he

363
00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.299
actually does save the day and he saves it on his own terms, which

364
00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:41.099
is, you know, to that higher spiral standard.

365
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:42.359
That doesn't happen here.

366
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:48.299
And and the suicide is just an easy narrative way to finish up and

367
00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:52.619
wrap up this really complex Gordian knot of a philosophical and

368
00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:54.000
ethical dilemma, I feel.

369
00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:59.339
I just don't think the show has ambitions to properly resolve

370
00:19:59.339 --> 00:19:59.640
that.

371
00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:06.119
I think that it deliberately presents us with a moral issue where

372
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:13.859
there isn't a very clear answer and where the characters

373
00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:17.339
themselves differ in how it should be handled.

374
00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:25.200
And I think, when the gunslinger talks about what Jex did, he

375
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:29.940
suggests that that was honourable behaviour, and so he's in a

376
00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:31.440
sense satisfied by it.

377
00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:37.799
But that's just one opinion, you know, and it's hard to believe

378
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:39.720
that that's the doctor's opinion.

379
00:20:39.779 --> 00:20:44.700
I mean, the doctor very gracelessly agrees to go with the plan, I

380
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:45.059
think.

381
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:50.940
I think he's visibly unhappy with the plan to let Jex go and he's

382
00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:54.960
angry with him whenever he speaks to him because he's not on board

383
00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:55.740
with it.

384
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:57.960
But that is part of what I like.

385
00:20:58.019 --> 00:21:00.599
This is the reason that I liked it, and I think the reason that

386
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.680
you don't like it, Stephen, is it feels like an extension of the

387
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:09.900
themes of the episode where the doctor sees himself in Carla X. And

388
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:14.039
so he can't bring himself to loathe what he did because the doctor

389
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:16.440
did the same thing and the doctor is racked with the same guilt

390
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:17.640
about what he did.

391
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:22.799
And so letting Jex go to when deferring it for another day is kind

392
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.579
of what just the doctor has done. just like kind of lived with it

393
00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:27.119
and moved on.

394
00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:29.220
Yeah, that's a really good point actually.

395
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:29.579
Yeah.

396
00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:32.880
I guess, I guess for me, it just, it set up those things.

397
00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:34.200
I think, Nathan, you're probably right.

398
00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:37.740
Doctor Who, as a show, doesn't really get a chance to do that

399
00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:39.420
although it does it in isolated incidents.

400
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:40.740
I think the Beast Blow does it.

401
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.039
I think the day the doctor absolutely does it, where, you know, the

402
00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:48.059
day is saved and saved in, you know, to the highest possible moral

403
00:21:48.059 --> 00:21:51.539
standard that the doctor should on his best day, you know, ascribe

404
00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:54.420
to us as the promise rather than perhaps a person.

405
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:58.319
But it reminds me of something actually that going back to my grad

406
00:21:58.319 --> 00:21:58.680
days.

407
00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:02.940
Hamlet and his problems is an essay written by TSL in 1919.

408
00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:06.299
And he talks about how Hamlet has an enormous structural problem

409
00:22:06.299 --> 00:22:09.960
in the sense that it brings up all of these, you know, complicated

410
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:13.200
you know, depth psychological aspects, but it doesn't resolve

411
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:13.500
them.

412
00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.380
It doesn't find the narrative framework and what he calls the

413
00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:20.400
objective correlatives, with which to pay off on those and resolve

414
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.059
them adequately.

415
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.400
And that's kind of what I feel happens here.

416
00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:26.759
We have these incredible, you know, wonderful, you know, arguments

417
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:31.380
philosophical, ethical, um, you know, I've, I've really come to, uh

418
00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:34.559
admire the craft and the art with which the stories put together.

419
00:22:34.619 --> 00:22:37.380
We saw Met segment we haven't talked about yet, but my god, this

420
00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:39.720
is one of those beautiful looking Doctor Who stories there ever

421
00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:40.079
has been.

422
00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:43.559
And I think all of that sort of has so much promise, but for me

423
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:45.539
and maybe it's just, again, Pete.

424
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.779
This is just the way that I react to it and it's different to the

425
00:22:48.779 --> 00:22:49.740
way that you've reacted to it.

426
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:55.019
I feel like there isn't that satisfactory, you know, narrative

427
00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:57.420
structure through which that problem and that dilemma is

428
00:22:57.420 --> 00:22:59.220
ultimately resolved in a satisfying way.

429
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.279
Whereas, I do find that in the beast below.

430
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.380
And I do find that absolutely in the day of the doctor.

431
00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:08.400
It's interesting because when we did our god complex podcast

432
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.740
obviously, also written by Toby Wickhouse.

433
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.559
I think Conrad said exactly the same thing.

434
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:18.599
Yeah, that it's muddy, that it's not quite sure what it's trying

435
00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:19.140
to say.

436
00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:23.460
But I think here the difference is that we have an intractable

437
00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:28.200
moral problem and the episode doesn't try and resolve it in any

438
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:30.180
kind of overt way.

439
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.960
And in fact, the resolution is entirely about the gunslinger, isn't

440
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:34.140
it?

441
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.019
It's kind of like, what does the gunslinger do?

442
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:40.140
You know, because we've got, we've got a kind of happy ending.

443
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:44.279
Like, the doctor says something like you might have no role in

444
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.140
peace, but you could protect it.

445
00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:53.460
And then, then don't we can't, to him being zany and talking about

446
00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:59.339
the dogs and monkeys, set up into space and we're all off on jolly

447
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:01.559
adventures and stuff now because it's been resolved.

448
00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:06.480
And then we get the sort of that weird mythic thing where the

449
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:09.660
gunslinger turns into this sort of mythic protector.

450
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:12.180
Absolutely.

451
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.759
And, and, you know, I talked earlier about the 3, you know, well, 2

452
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:18.420
foils, but perhaps all foils for one another, the doctor, Carla

453
00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:19.799
Jex, and the gunslinger.

454
00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:24.180
These are all variations on the archetype of the stranger, which

455
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:27.539
is no stranger in itself to the Western genre, right?

456
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:31.259
The, the, you know, man in the white hat arrives in your town, does

457
00:24:31.259 --> 00:24:32.700
most amazing and wonderful things.

458
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:35.279
And then before you can thank him or even asking why he disappears

459
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:35.940
into the sunset.

460
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.200
That's the doctor.

461
00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:39.000
That's also now Carla Jackson.

462
00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:40.140
That's also the gunslinger.

463
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:44.099
There's a thematic resonance that sort of ties those 3 characters

464
00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:46.740
together, each of whom have a different sort of moral and

465
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.799
philosophical framework, but they ultimately serve as protectors

466
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:50.460
to the innocent.

467
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:52.619
I think I think that's also really wonderful, Pete.

468
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.920
Something that I perhaps missed that 1st time around, but you know

469
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.079
I really, really appreciated this time round.

470
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:16.859
Let's talk about this as a Western.

471
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:19.079
We started to allude to that a little bit.

472
00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:25.619
I mean, it works as a Western in the sense that it is a mysterious

473
00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:29.640
stranger arrives and solves our problems and then goes or 3

474
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:30.900
mysterious strangers.

475
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:36.539
And in fact, we do get some weird confusions among the roles, don't

476
00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:36.779
we?

477
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:42.839
The voiceover sounds like it's talking about the doctor at the

478
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.039
very beginning of the episode.

479
00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:49.079
Then we have the confusion between the doctor and Carla Jex, where

480
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.640
Jex actually says, I'm the doctor at one point. then we discover

481
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:56.099
she wasn't talking about the doctor at all, but the gunslinger.

482
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.339
So it works as a Western in all sorts of ways.

483
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.819
But where is this shot?

484
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.259
El Maria.

485
00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:04.799
In Spain.

486
00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:07.799
Do they have a Western town lying around in Spain?

487
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:08.400
Yeah.

488
00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:13.259
It's a Hollywood set. the leftovers of the Spaghetti Western genre

489
00:26:13.259 --> 00:26:13.740
films.

490
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:14.940
So, yeah.

491
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.200
It's amazing.

492
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.660
Yeah, it looks fantastic.

493
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:19.920
Yeah, yeah. incredible.

494
00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:23.099
I mean, I'd have been happy if they just went into the studio and

495
00:26:23.099 --> 00:26:24.960
set up a flat of the last chance salute.

496
00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:29.880
But I mean, they don't even do that in the gunfighters that we

497
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:32.819
thought the gunfighters looked impressive at the time because we

498
00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:33.900
were in a big studio.

499
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.480
We're riding horses around and stuff like that.

500
00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:38.460
But this is massive.

501
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:41.819
Actually, the gunfighters also includes the doctor in a white hat

502
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:42.480
coming into town.

503
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:47.759
But this is huge, this location.

504
00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:51.480
It just looks so convincing and so real.

505
00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:57.720
And the director, and it's all, yeah, well, he, he only does

506
00:26:57.720 --> 00:26:59.160
things in series seven.

507
00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:02.400
He's just here for this series and then he never comes back.

508
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:03.480
That's right, isn't it?

509
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.079
That's right.

510
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.839
Yeah. and he is amazingly good I think.

511
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:12.059
He's got a terrific sense of what he's putting in the frame.

512
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:14.819
Um, I guess you call it Miseonsen.

513
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.000
But thank you, James.

514
00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:22.440
That's French for putting in the frame.

515
00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:30.059
But I think because there is a big moral question here, it's

516
00:27:30.059 --> 00:27:31.859
served by a big backdrop.

517
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:36.539
So the fact that it's got production value, and that's played out

518
00:27:36.539 --> 00:27:39.720
against something which looks quite grand, really helps the

519
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:40.079
episode.

520
00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:42.960
It wouldn't have worked in a corner of the studio.

521
00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:44.220
No, no.

522
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:46.079
I think it just looks amazing.

523
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:47.759
Absolutely.

524
00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:49.559
Epic is the word that comes to mind.

525
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.119
It's epic in terms of its direction.

526
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:54.420
There's somewhat wonderful and incredible twilight shots or

527
00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:55.319
whether it's early dawn.

528
00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:58.559
I'm not really sure, but the sun on, on that slanted angle sort of

529
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.740
with that golden hue coming through, you know, this one shot where

530
00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:05.640
the doctor's riding off into the distance on, uh, um, on Susan.

531
00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:10.200
And I just think it looks... back and watch series one of Doctor

532
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.819
Who, that would create some problems.

533
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:15.119
Or watch coupling.

534
00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:20.339
But it also feels epic through its intertextuality.

535
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.759
Like, we have all seen those Saturday matinees film growing

536
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.240
growing up on channel 7 or whatever the case is of, you know, the

537
00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:30.240
John Waynes and, you know, you know, the Clint Eastwood films and

538
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:30.779
all the rest of it.

539
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:35.519
Like it, it hearkens back to those, that kind of genre, which, uh

540
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:37.980
you know, maybe feels a little bit old and, you know, my dad was a

541
00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:39.839
great fan of it, but I could never really get into it.

542
00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:43.259
It sort of felt just that generation or two, you know, before me

543
00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:45.900
that I just couldn't resonate with, but I can definitely

544
00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:48.059
appreciate the cinematography of it.

545
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:50.759
But the other thing, of course, is like it feels epic through

546
00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:54.059
intertextuality around the very mythos of the Western.

547
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:57.839
And it's one of those things that continually surprises me that

548
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:00.720
we're not talking about the 1700s.

549
00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:04.440
We're talking about the 1880s and I think maybe it's 1890s that

550
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:05.220
this story is set.

551
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.900
I mean, to put that into perspective, so October 1881, okay, corral

552
00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:12.539
uh, the shootout, the okay corral, so the gunfighters, that's what

553
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:13.140
that set, Pete.

554
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.259
Um, and Billy the Kid is shot in the same year in July of that

555
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:16.859
year as well.

556
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:21.000
Now, to compare what's happening at the same time in terms of

557
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:25.680
American literature, Henry James has just written the portrait of

558
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:26.039
a lady.

559
00:29:26.099 --> 00:29:31.440
And to think that those 2 things are happening at the same time. my

560
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:31.680
mind.

561
00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:35.339
And it really means that I think we're talking as much about a

562
00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:40.140
mythic setting or a mythic period than an actual time that

563
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:40.680
existed.

564
00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:42.660
And I think that really helps with this story as well.

565
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:48.839
So that it appears to be set in a Western rather than in America's

566
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:49.500
history.

567
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:50.400
Exactly right.

568
00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:54.059
Yeah, like in some sort of parallel, you know, Hollywood version

569
00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:54.660
of history.

570
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:55.500
Yeah.

571
00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:59.160
It's funny because Doctor Who and the Western are such kind of

572
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:04.440
distinct entities that it's odd and yet understandable that

573
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:06.180
they've crossed over so few times.

574
00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:09.539
Doctor in the Western is basically just the gunfighters and a town

575
00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:10.200
called Mercy.

576
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:13.140
And for all the reasons it doesn't work in the gunfighters.

577
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.779
It does work in a town called Mercia, because it takes all of

578
00:30:15.779 --> 00:30:19.559
those archetype characters, like the sheriff and stranger and does

579
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:20.759
something interesting with them.

580
00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:25.319
And it's a very difficult marriage of genres, which is why I

581
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.900
appreciate this episode because it makes it work.

582
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.740
Special shout out to the sheriff who is hot as hell.

583
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:32.640
Yeah, clam chowder.

584
00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:33.059
Yeah.

585
00:30:33.059 --> 00:30:35.039
Ben Browder.

586
00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:37.079
He's really good, I think.

587
00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:41.400
And a kind of he gets to participate in the moral conversation

588
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:41.940
doesn't he?

589
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.380
The decision not to let the mob kill Jex is honouring Isaac's

590
00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:54.299
memory and Jex recognises that Isaac's death is another thing that

591
00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:55.380
he's responsible for.

592
00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:59.640
I think he's a really fascinating character and Pete, you know

593
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:02.460
this idea of, you know, Doctor Who and Westerns and the sort of

594
00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:03.720
uneasy alliance between them.

595
00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:08.160
I think Isaac really sort of is the crucible in which those

596
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.200
discourses clash and meet.

597
00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:13.259
So he is, as I said before, the sole figure for redemption and the

598
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:15.420
advocate for redemption in this town of atonement.

599
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.640
Even though the town is called mercy.

600
00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:20.640
He's the one who sort of stands up for what, in his own words

601
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:24.119
America is a land of 2nd chances, that there is something perhaps

602
00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:27.720
idealistic about what it is to be an American.

603
00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:31.440
But at the same time, he talks about a war that had just finished

604
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.980
which I'm assuming is the Civil War, perhaps in America, and that

605
00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:40.440
this is also a society and a culture and a nation that is still

606
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:43.140
under the surface, you know, shaped by that violence.

607
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:48.059
And that's very different in terms of the, um, the character of

608
00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:50.640
the doctor, which is, you know, that, you know, I think you've

609
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:53.940
said Nathan many times in the past a long time ago.

610
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:57.480
But this is sort of like the Edwardian Victorian amateur

611
00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:57.960
scientist.

612
00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:01.440
You know, it's a very, very different archetype and a very

613
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:01.920
different character.

614
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:06.960
And I think the, um, you know, the shaping of an Isaac character

615
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:10.500
who is clearly the town's hero prior to the doctor arriving, I

616
00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:14.880
think, uh, is so at odds in terms of, you know, he's a gunslinger

617
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:19.019
and himself, against the doctor who, at least in my mind, shouldn't

618
00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:21.420
be picking up a gun, and that's one of the other gripes, by the

619
00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:22.440
way, that I have about this story.

620
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:23.940
Yeah, at some point.

621
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:25.440
But I think we're meant to.

622
00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:29.880
I mean, it's it's absolutely playing on that and it's not made

623
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:33.059
explicit, but it is that self-hatred, I think.

624
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:37.140
It is absolutely his reaction to someone who did what he did.

625
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:38.940
Yeah.

626
00:32:39.059 --> 00:32:40.380
Yeah, it's absolutely true.

627
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:40.859
I agree.

628
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:43.920
No, I mean, all of those things, that sort of complexity and the

629
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.920
ambiguity around, you know, the moral and ethical dimensions of

630
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:52.319
this story, like really have made me reevaluate, just how, how

631
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:53.099
complex it is.

632
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:55.319
Whereas before I genuinely thought, oh, You know, that was an

633
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:58.140
episode of Doctor Who, I think it's a lot more thought out and

634
00:32:58.140 --> 00:32:59.160
complex than that now.

635
00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:02.579
And actually, I can understand why this episode doesn't land for

636
00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:03.059
everybody.

637
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.599
I mean, I don't think anyone or many people would say that it was

638
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.420
a failure of an episode, but I can't understand why it doesn't

639
00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:12.059
speak to people in the same way as it speaks to me.

640
00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:22.380
So Adrian Scarborough's been in everything.

641
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:27.539
Yeah, so you were looking at his IMDb page before, I think.

642
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.619
James.

643
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.059
No, it wasn't, I just know it.

644
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:31.619
Of course you do, darling.

645
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.079
He was in the History Boys.

646
00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:37.380
Everyone was in history boys. mystery wise, of course.

647
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.380
He wasn't one of the eponymous boys, though, was he?

648
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:42.839
No, you'd hope you'd hope not.

649
00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:45.000
That would have been very American cast.

650
00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:48.420
Was he in the theatre version as well or just film?

651
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:49.200
Not sure.

652
00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:51.119
They were transplanted.

653
00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:54.779
He was he was Pete in Gavin and Stacy.

654
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:55.980
Yep, yep.

655
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:58.019
We recognise him from Psychoville.

656
00:33:58.079 --> 00:33:58.380
Yes.

657
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.720
He was Mr. Jolly in Psychoville?

658
00:34:00.779 --> 00:34:04.079
There was the butler in the revamped upstairs downstairs doing a

659
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.019
very thankless role taking over from Gordon Jackson in the

660
00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:08.159
original and doing it phenomenally.

661
00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:11.159
Yeah, I mean, he's never not been working.

662
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:13.199
He is that guy.

663
00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:14.579
He's very familiar.

664
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:20.760
And I remember kind of knowing who he was, but without being able

665
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.159
to sort of put my finger on where I'd seen him before.

666
00:34:23.579 --> 00:34:30.300
And he is incredibly great, I think, really quite an extraordinary

667
00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:30.719
performance.

668
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:34.440
It's that thing that Doctor Who does quite frequently, where

669
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.800
you've got a really good guest role, and from the 1st moment that

670
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.860
this actor appears, you're at your ease thinking they're

671
00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:43.079
absolutely going to perform this to the hilt.

672
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:47.099
Yeah, and I think, I mean, the character itself is super

673
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:47.579
interesting.

674
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:50.159
I mean, when you give it to someone like that who's a supremely

675
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:54.360
talented actor, it's essentially like a mild mannered Joseph

676
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:55.139
Mengele.

677
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:58.920
It's incredible, incredible mishmash.

678
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:07.139
No, he's superb in this. absolutely, you know, and you need that

679
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:07.559
don't you?

680
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:10.619
Because if this is essentially the doctor's foil, I wouldn't say

681
00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:13.800
nemesis, but, you know, very much, you know, a twisted mirror

682
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:17.039
image of what the doctor character is, and he's got to be someone

683
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:18.300
who absolutely can bring it.

684
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:19.920
So he was wonderful, I agree.

685
00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:24.599
I thought an interesting aspect of the character was the empathy.

686
00:35:24.659 --> 00:35:27.840
So his ability to judge what Amy was like.

687
00:35:27.900 --> 00:35:32.219
And that scene is actually really quite extraordinary because he

688
00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:33.300
nails Amy.

689
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:34.800
You know, you're a mother.

690
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:41.039
I think that complexity in that character is actually something

691
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:42.840
that is a strength in this episode.

692
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:44.880
He has that empathy.

693
00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.280
And he committed these crimes.

694
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:52.320
It actually makes his crimes even worse because he can actually

695
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.380
appreciate how terrible what he did was.

696
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.019
And it's just why he's so conflicted.

697
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.440
Well, and I think, you know, the weight that he feels, you know

698
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:04.380
the burden that he expects to bear when he's climbing up that

699
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:07.019
mountain, you know, like he's not bunging that on.

700
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:08.639
I think he clearly means that.

701
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:13.019
We've seen, you know, him actually being understanding and

702
00:36:13.019 --> 00:36:13.739
empathetic.

703
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:16.500
The interesting thing in that scene, though, is, again, that

704
00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:22.440
performance where he says, oh, I'm a father, I guess, in a way.

705
00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:27.239
And then the reaction to that, because we find out that that's

706
00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:29.940
actually his father in the sense that he, you know, sawed

707
00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:34.079
someone's limbs off and kind of stuck things in their head.

708
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:34.860
In the same way.

709
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:37.079
Frankenstein.

710
00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:40.320
Yeah, that's right. was the monster's father, which is why it's

711
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:42.480
okay to call the monster Frankenstein.

712
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:49.079
But also, Frankenstein was the monster all along.

713
00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:51.000
He was the monster monster.

714
00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:54.599
Yeah, well, he's played by Kenneth Brenner.

715
00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:01.320
But there's just a look on his face where it's clear that he's

716
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:06.239
conscious of what a dreadful thing he's done that yet he can't

717
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:07.500
stop congratulating.

718
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:08.219
Yeah, yeah.

719
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:08.820
Yeah.

720
00:37:08.820 --> 00:37:09.179
Yeah.

721
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.380
Yeah, and again, I guess if we're trolly probleming it.

722
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.980
You know, it's a little bit like the, remember the variant of the

723
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:20.340
trolly problem, which is where you get someone in a doctor's

724
00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:23.400
waiting room and you sort of carve them up, they're quite well, but

725
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:27.059
you carve them up and give their vital organs to 5 other people.

726
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:31.860
So those 5 people survive and, you know, numerically we're ahead.

727
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.539
He's doing that.

728
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:34.980
Isn't he during the war?

729
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:38.820
He's taking a small number of people who are volunteers, he says.

730
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.280
Except they didn't know what they were volunteering.

731
00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:42.539
Well, there's that.

732
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:47.340
And he ends the war in weeks and saves 1000000s and 1000000s of

733
00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:51.599
people by brutalising and torturing a small number of people.

734
00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:55.679
And so there's another aspect and we've circled all the way

735
00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.019
background to the moral issues.

736
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.219
There's another kind of aspect to that, I think.

737
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.980
You know, he says he's a war hero.

738
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:10.559
We can't really believe that, although in the moment the

739
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:14.760
performance looks like, well, it's one person's hero is another

740
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:15.659
person's villain.

741
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:17.280
So he probably is a hero to his own people.

742
00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:21.300
Yeah, but I mean, we know that he feels more deeply about what

743
00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:26.280
he's done than that, that sort of bravado, just based on how he

744
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:27.900
reacts the rest of the time.

745
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.739
I love that scene between him and Amy because it does that thing

746
00:38:31.739 --> 00:38:34.619
which Good Doctor 2 always does where the villain has an

747
00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.019
independent relationship with the companion.

748
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:40.860
And it's always interesting because you almost always get a

749
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:43.260
different facet of the villain when they're not dealing with the

750
00:38:43.260 --> 00:38:43.500
doctor.

751
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:44.039
Yeah.

752
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:47.880
Because the doctor has such moral certainty, not really in this

753
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:51.000
episode, but usually he has such moral certainty, whereas the

754
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:51.480
companion doesn't.

755
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:51.840
Yeah.

756
00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:55.500
Let's talk about the arc.

757
00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:00.000
The series 7 AR, and we've been talking about this.

758
00:39:00.059 --> 00:39:04.860
Is there a line about how long it's been since Amy and Rory have

759
00:39:04.860 --> 00:39:05.340
seen the doctor?

760
00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:12.539
No, but there is a moment at the end, isn't there, where the

761
00:39:12.539 --> 00:39:18.119
doctor tries to lure them into the TARDIS with like the weirdest

762
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:23.519
and most upsetting Florana speech in the shows. which he've

763
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.239
alluded to before.

764
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:25.559
Dogs in space?

765
00:39:25.619 --> 00:39:26.460
Dogs in space.

766
00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:30.300
It'll take it'll take us until flux to get there.

767
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:34.739
That's what happened to them and they travel back in time and

768
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:37.139
became humanity's protectors.

769
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:38.639
All got wiped out.

770
00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:41.400
It all fits together so neatly.

771
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:44.820
And they say no.

772
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:48.539
They say, no, we should go back home.

773
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.559
Our friends will be wondering why we're so much older than them.

774
00:39:52.619 --> 00:39:57.719
And I think that this is something that basically every episode

775
00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:00.360
has properly done so far.

776
00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:04.619
And it's such a great arc because it's nothing to do with space

777
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:05.219
reasons.

778
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.500
It's just to do with how the characters feel about each other.

779
00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:08.699
Yeah, yeah.

780
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:12.780
Well, that will doubtless pay off in a very satisfying way in

781
00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:13.619
episode five.

782
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:25.260
There are so many tropes about this episode, which are just

783
00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:28.320
interesting sort of throwaways, and are good for the characters.

784
00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:32.219
There's that bit where the doctor is examining the bullet hole

785
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:35.099
through the hat, and when he says, who would shoot a hat or

786
00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:38.159
whatever, he says, all that fez related outrage?

787
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:39.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

788
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.599
Like this terrible, terrible villain who would shoot a hat.

789
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:43.679
It's so great.

790
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.619
And that's what I was saying earlier about it feels like it's a

791
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:50.039
showrunner episode because even though it's dealing with quite big

792
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.280
issues and playing them out against an epic backdrop, you know

793
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.679
successfully or less successfully, depending on where you're

794
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:55.980
coming from.

795
00:40:56.039 --> 00:41:00.119
It has time for all of these beautiful little moments which kind

796
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:01.500
of colour the scenery.

797
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.579
This is what makes me appreciate this episode so much, is that it

798
00:41:05.579 --> 00:41:08.940
feels like an important episode for the show, even though it is

799
00:41:08.940 --> 00:41:10.440
absolutely a standalone episode.

800
00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:13.980
There's that moment too, where we've had this really, really

801
00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:19.019
fraught and emotional scene where the doctor is going to kick.

802
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:21.539
Well, you know, kicks checks over the line.

803
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:27.059
And then we get Amy doing the sort of comedy, you know, you've

804
00:41:27.059 --> 00:41:30.719
been taking stupid pills or whatever since I last or stupid

805
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.579
lessons as though what she says.

806
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:37.380
And then she, she's gesticulating with a gun, which then goes off

807
00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:41.699
twice and you've got Isaac kind of yelling at her. you know, and

808
00:41:41.699 --> 00:41:46.920
all of that stuff like, like, Whitehouse can be funny and can

809
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:51.840
write funny dialogue. he really does it here, I think.

810
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:55.920
He's moffity in that he's wacky even when he's being serious.

811
00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:57.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

812
00:41:57.360 --> 00:41:57.719
Yeah.

813
00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:02.519
I was upset that the doctor didn't send Susan on her way with a

814
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:03.659
jolly good smacked bottom.

815
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:10.920
I think that joke has, you know, aged like milk, hasn't it?

816
00:42:10.980 --> 00:42:14.579
It's well intentioned, but it's absolutely not the way we would

817
00:42:14.579 --> 00:42:15.179
express it now.

818
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:16.500
So it's a bit of a shame.

819
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:18.719
I just like milk out in the western sun.

820
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:19.679
Yeah, yeah.

821
00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:22.440
It's a bad thing.

822
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:24.900
But I do like that he speaks horse.

823
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:27.000
You know, like...

824
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:28.199
It's like it speaks for me.

825
00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:29.639
Baby, pony.

826
00:42:29.699 --> 00:42:30.360
Yeah, yeah.

827
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:32.940
He can speak horse, but he still misgenders them.

828
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:34.679
Yeah, no, no, no, that's right.

829
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:38.519
But he does call her Susan a bit later and say that's kind of

830
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:38.820
cool.

831
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:43.380
All of that stuff too, like with them out in the wilderness, you

832
00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:46.739
know, being hunted down by the gunslinger trying to evade him.

833
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:51.059
There's one fantastic moment where the gunslinger shoots right

834
00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:54.179
near Isaac and Rory.

835
00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:57.179
And Rory goes, I think he's seen us.

836
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.880
Which is just a perfect distillation of Rory, who is there to

837
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:04.380
state the obvious.

838
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:08.940
But I mean, that's this episode all over.

839
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:13.500
It's funny and it's action packed and it has a moral dilemma and

840
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:14.460
it's shot well.

841
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:15.539
I mean, what's not to love?

842
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:16.440
Yeah, yeah.

843
00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:18.840
And it has some really extraordinarily good performances.

844
00:43:19.139 --> 00:43:23.159
Even the lesser characters, like you were talking earlier about

845
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:27.780
the scene where the boy want to get and the boy is really good

846
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:32.699
even though he's essentially got one scene and then a bizarrely

847
00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:34.440
extended goodbye scene with the doctor.

848
00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:39.179
But I think the bizarrely extended goodbye scene is there to show

849
00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:43.139
that the doctor was right that he gets to be a kid at the end

850
00:43:43.139 --> 00:43:45.840
because the doctors prevented him from killing someone.

851
00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:53.460
And the doctor gets something in that scene that he doesn't get in

852
00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:59.940
the scene where he's pushing jets over the line because, and I

853
00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:02.820
guess I'm thinking of this for the 1st time, but we were talking

854
00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:04.260
about it a little bit before.

855
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:08.760
That killing someone affects you.

856
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.659
It turns you into the kind of person that kills someone.

857
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:17.340
And that's not the primary problem with killing people, obviously.

858
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:18.179
Isn't it?

859
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:18.659
No.

860
00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:22.860
So we have the doctor who looks like he's the kind of person who

861
00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:29.519
is going to allow Jex to be killed by the by the gunslinger, but

862
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:36.960
he prevents the boy from being the same kind of person who would

863
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:37.380
do that.

864
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.980
And so when we see the boy at the end, The boy is chilled, his

865
00:44:40.980 --> 00:44:42.900
face is relaxed, he's prettier.

866
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:44.940
He's just being a boy Yeah, yeah.

867
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.699
He gets to be a kid because he doesn't have the weight of having

868
00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:51.900
taken part in a lynch mob on his conscience.

869
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.659
I mean, Stephen, do you not think that's an effective thematic

870
00:44:54.659 --> 00:44:54.960
close?

871
00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:57.360
No, it is in that regard, definitely.

872
00:44:57.420 --> 00:44:59.820
And that's part of it that works for me, right?

873
00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:03.780
So we have Amy being the moral censure, that resenters the

874
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:04.019
doctor.

875
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.940
And that is, you know, from that point onwards, the doctor is the

876
00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:13.079
doctor that we should be expecting and should have, that

877
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:15.599
conversation about, is, you know, is Jex really worth the risk of

878
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:16.380
trying to save?

879
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:18.780
And he says, I don't know, but you are.

880
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.980
It's a superb doctor-ish moment because it speaks to the, you know

881
00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:26.639
again, that sort of high moral standard that the doctor, um, as a

882
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:28.380
promise, uh, should be kept to.

883
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:33.480
I guess my, my, I feel the shortcomings are, I kind of feel like

884
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:37.079
we've seen this before, you know, the utilitarian choices has been

885
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:39.659
something that we, you know, seen before, whether it's in Boomtown

886
00:45:39.659 --> 00:45:42.659
as you say, or the beast below, and we'll see again in the day of

887
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:43.860
the doctor in a much, much better way.

888
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:48.300
But also other things in terms of, you know, the doctor having, uh

889
00:45:48.300 --> 00:45:51.360
needing to be, you know, re-centered in terms of his morality.

890
00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:53.639
Well, isn't that something that, you know, see before in the

891
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:54.239
runaway bride?

892
00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:59.280
And then ultimately just the resolution itself doesn't match that

893
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:02.820
sort of philosophical or ethical framework that the doctor has now

894
00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:03.420
come back to.

895
00:46:03.420 --> 00:46:06.960
And that maybe is probably what doesn't quite suit well for me

896
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:07.920
those 2 those 2 things.

897
00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:12.119
But it's still, you know, far more complex, far more nuanced, far

898
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.480
more beautiful a story than probably I gave it 1st credit to.

899
00:46:15.539 --> 00:46:16.920
So, yeah.

900
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:21.900
I think maybe it's the highlight of the 1st half of this season

901
00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:23.099
agree with that.

902
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:54.480
Well, Delicious, that's all we have time for this week.

903
00:46:54.539 --> 00:46:59.699
You'll be back next week for an extremely slow alien invasion in

904
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:00.659
the power of three.

905
00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:04.739
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

906
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:07.619
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

907
00:47:07.619 --> 00:47:10.800
at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website

908
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:14.039
FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

909
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:18.539
podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and

910
00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:20.639
untitled Star Trek project.

911
00:47:21.059 --> 00:47:23.400
Stephen, where can people find you?

912
00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:27.659
There is a backlog of episodes on the New to Who podcast, so you

913
00:47:27.659 --> 00:47:29.460
can find us at New to Who podcast.

914
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:32.699
We've taken a bit of a rest our world of recent times, but hope to

915
00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:34.079
be back in some point in the future.

916
00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:38.579
Until next time, remember that you can support the podcast by

917
00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:42.900
buying a Braxa security software for your next escape pod.

918
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.159
Don't forget to use the offer code war crime at checkout.

919
00:47:47.219 --> 00:47:49.800
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

920
00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:51.059
Good night.

921
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:51.840
Good night.

922
00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:52.860
Good seeing you.

923
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:01.500
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

924
00:48:01.500 --> 00:48:03.539
Stephen B. James Selwood and Peter Griffiths.

925
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:05.400
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

926
00:48:05.460 --> 00:48:08.639
This episode of mild mannered Joseph Mangola was recorded on the

927
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:11.940
20th of March 2022 and released on the 24th of April.

928
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.960
In a series with no two part stories, we probably won't get any

929
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:16.679
pics of the week.

930
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:20.099
So if you've enjoyed our conversation about moral philosophy, and

931
00:48:20.099 --> 00:48:22.860
if you love things that are really, really funny, Please watch

932
00:48:22.860 --> 00:48:24.300
Michael Shows The Good Place.

933
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:25.320
It's tremendous.

934
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:35.219
I think we end it there.

935
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:35.699
What do you think?

936
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:39.539
You have to call this episode mild mannered mangalay.

937
00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:40.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

938
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:41.519
Mild manner, Joseph Bengal.

939
00:48:41.579 --> 00:48:42.659
I've already decided it.

940
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:47.519
It's a little bit on the nose for the episode title, but it's such

941
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:52.739
a good, you know, it's such a good phrase. absolutely mentally

942
00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:56.219
saying title in my head as you said that.

943
00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:58.079
Yeah.

944
00:48:58.139 --> 00:49:02.340
And maybe if it's our mild mannered Joseph Mangler, that might be

945
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:04.199
good or just mild mannered.

946
00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:06.840
No, A works better, yeah.

947
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:08.159
Yeah, yeah, I think so too.

948
00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:11.400
Stephen, you did such a great job of articulating your slight

949
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:13.980
misgivings with the episode. if I put you on the spot.

950
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:16.860
I didn't mean to put you on the spot at the end to go, well, do

951
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:18.119
you not?

952
00:49:18.179 --> 00:49:19.920
Now, do you know what?

953
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:22.619
This is exactly what I was preparing for.

954
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:26.579
Like, this is this is how, like, I watched that again for the 1st

955
00:49:26.579 --> 00:49:31.079
time in my 10 years with our conversation in mind and hoping that

956
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:34.559
we would be able to sort of come to a better resolution and

957
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.860
understanding than, you know, I just wasn't able to when we were

958
00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:40.679
talking at your birthday because I just had that initial

959
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:41.400
impression in my mind.

960
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:43.320
It's funny, isn't it?

961
00:49:43.380 --> 00:49:46.739
Because that the death is a cheat in a way.

962
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.719
I agree with you.

963
00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:54.000
Like, I think it works on some level, but it also kind of solves

964
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:54.900
the problem for us.

965
00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:00.059
It's kind of like we're wrestling with a moral dilemma and then he

966
00:50:00.059 --> 00:50:02.340
kills himself anyway, so we don't have to worry about it.

967
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:09.599
And there are things to think about, you know, that are presented

968
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:11.940
and all sorts of all that sort of thing.

969
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.219
Like I don't think Doctor Whoever comes down on the side of

970
00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:16.679
utilitarianism, really, does it?

971
00:50:16.739 --> 00:50:18.360
Ultimately, no.

972
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:18.960
No.

973
00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:20.219
And it's about character.

974
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:21.719
It's like virtue ethics almost.

975
00:50:21.780 --> 00:50:23.820
It is what sort of person are you?

976
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.460
What sort of things would you be prepared to do?

977
00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:29.820
Um, Yeah.

978
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.960
I mean, it's difficult to see a way that it would have ended. still

979
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:34.380
addressing.

980
00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:35.400
Yeah, yeah.

981
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:39.059
I think you kind of just have to do that And give him, if you give

982
00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:42.599
the doctor a motivation for doing it, which the show does, I think

983
00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:47.400
successfully. and it preemptively comments on it as a cheat, you

984
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:50.400
know, that you don't get to choose your own atonement speech.

985
00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:52.619
That's a good point, actually.

986
00:50:52.619 --> 00:50:54.599
And I haven't thought of that until you just said that then

987
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:55.019
Nathan.

988
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:55.619
I think that's true.

989
00:50:55.739 --> 00:50:59.099
Maybe I need to watch it again and think about that.

990
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:02.340
But yeah, like that that time that I watched it just yesterday.

991
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:07.260
My, my impression was, again, the objective correlative is not

992
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:07.500
there.

993
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:12.179
We're not able to contain the ethical, philosophical, you know

994
00:51:12.179 --> 00:51:16.559
dimensions of of what's being, you know, explored here through the

995
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:17.820
actual events of the narrative.

996
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:22.139
Yeah, which isn't, you know, I mean, if that, if that, if Hamlet

997
00:51:22.139 --> 00:51:24.840
has the same problem, you know, and that's not, yes.

998
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:26.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah. then that's that's not a huge fan.

999
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:27.960
Yeah, yeah.

1000
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:33.659
It is, it's, it's, I think what Peter said about what we said

1001
00:51:33.659 --> 00:51:36.719
about the God complex, about what Conrad said about the God

1002
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:42.840
complex, where I'm trying to create a coherent reading of it, and

1003
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.840
he says, actually, no, it's a mess.

1004
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:50.159
And I think that maybe that is a White House thing.

1005
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:57.000
Like, I, I, like, I think, you know, Widhouse would have been a

1006
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:02.099
better choice of showrunner than Chris Chipnall, but because he'd

1007
00:52:02.099 --> 00:52:05.820
run a show before and all of that, even if it wasn't terrifically

1008
00:52:05.820 --> 00:52:09.539
successful, but he'd run a genre show, you know, like he, he's

1009
00:52:09.539 --> 00:52:14.639
funny, he's, but he's still not a Moffat or Russell, though, is

1010
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:15.000
he?

1011
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:17.699
But in rare moments he can be.

1012
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:19.860
Yeah, he can be good.

1013
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:20.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1014
00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:22.679
No, Chibnell doesn't have rare moments.

1015
00:52:22.739 --> 00:52:26.400
Although we were pretty positive about both of his, and I think he

1016
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:27.719
has 2 good episodes.

1017
00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.599
Dime sauce on a spaceship is so much fun.

1018
00:52:30.659 --> 00:52:32.400
It's great, isn't it?

1019
00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.860
And plus killing David Bradley.

1020
00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:38.039
It's the opposite of what Jody's doctor would do, which would be

1021
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:40.679
oh, all right, see you next time or whatever.

1022
00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:44.760
And it's like Matt locks him in the thing and just lets missiles

1023
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:45.179
hit him.

1024
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:46.260
I just think, woo hoo.

1025
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:51.480
That's what I want Walk away unscathed space Nazi.

1026
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:55.380
Actually, that's something that I forgot to mention, but this idea

1027
00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:59.219
that, you know, the doctor would allow that to happen to, is it

1028
00:52:59.219 --> 00:52:59.699
Saul?

1029
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:00.420
Is the name's character?

1030
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:01.380
Solomon.

1031
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:02.699
Solomon, sorry, right?

1032
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.440
Very Old Testament.

1033
00:53:04.500 --> 00:53:09.179
Um, you know, and his fate is very Old Testament as well, isn't it

1034
00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:09.360
really?

1035
00:53:09.420 --> 00:53:14.280
Like, that's, that again is, is an example of, again, the doctor

1036
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:17.039
being alone for too long or, you know, not having that constant

1037
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:19.079
companionship and what he, he does.

1038
00:53:19.139 --> 00:53:22.679
So maybe maybe that was sort of seeded in the previous episode as

1039
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:22.800
well.

1040
00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:25.260
Yeah, he's unobserved doing it.

1041
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:29.159
None of none of the other characters know, but that's what he's

1042
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:33.360
done. that he's just let the missiles lock on.

1043
00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:38.219
But given the horrific scale of the genocide that we're talking

1044
00:53:38.219 --> 00:53:40.380
about, isn't that funny?

1045
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:43.920
Like it is, I think it's straightforwardly okay for the doctor to

1046
00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:48.360
do that to Solomon, but I'm less happy with the doctor pushing

1047
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:49.860
Shara's Jek over the thing.

1048
00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:51.840
Shara's Jack?

1049
00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:52.619
That's what I called him.

1050
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:56.039
Carla Jex. didn't realise.

1051
00:53:56.099 --> 00:53:57.179
I'm less happy about that.

1052
00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.739
Did I ever call him Sharon's Jack in the episode?

1053
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:00.179
Okay, good.

1054
00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:04.500
But I'm less happy about that, you know, and in a way, they're

1055
00:54:04.500 --> 00:54:05.099
very similar.

1056
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:07.199
They're analogous situations.

1057
00:54:07.260 --> 00:54:08.280
So I wonder what that is.

1058
00:54:08.340 --> 00:54:13.019
On a related note, I'm happy that the gunslinger Carla Tech has

1059
00:54:13.019 --> 00:54:14.639
named that because he's full of Carla Tech.

1060
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:17.039
Yeah, so dumb, isn't it?

1061
00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:19.559
I think he should be TK.

1062
00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:24.900
But for some reason, the subtitles said he was Carla T-E-C-H, which

1063
00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:26.820
I just think, oh, come on.

1064
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:28.079
Really?

1065
00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:32.699
The great thing about the test, colour test.

1066
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:36.000
The great thing about the subtitles was like that kept subtitling

1067
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:45.119
the horse, horse snorts. winning in the background.

1068
00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:46.619
Winnie.

1069
00:54:46.619 --> 00:54:49.260
Four snorts derisively.

1070
00:54:49.260 --> 00:54:50.820
You just misgendered her.

1071
00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:52.199
So good.