WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:18:55 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:47.700 Hello, Delissa, and welcome back to Flights of Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast Flying through the entirety of Doctor Who as a penance for all that torture and vivisection we did. 2 00:00:47.939 --> 00:00:49.979 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:50.700 I'm James. 4 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:51.420 I'm Peter. 5 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:52.619 And I'm Stephen. 6 00:00:52.859 --> 00:01:01.200 Well, it's Nevada 1817, and it's time for a reckoning with our past and the doctors and the other doctors. 7 00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:07.019 It's a remake of the gunfighters with acting, production design, and some kind of moral message. 8 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:11.819 We've got weird facial markings and a backpack full of souls. 9 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.099 It's a town called Mercy. 10 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.780 So, Stephen, is this one of your favourites? 11 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:32.519 Look, it's not. 12 00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:41.700 And it's one of those episodes that I probably have seen twice prior to preparing for this podcast and I thought, well, that was an episode of Doctor Who. 13 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:44.099 It wasn't particularly offensive or inoffensive. 14 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:45.659 It was just an episode of Doctor Who. 15 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:59.099 And then earlier this year, I had the pleasure of being invited to Pete's 30th birthday party on top of Sydney tower, and we got chatting about series 7 and we got chatting about this particular episode. 16 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:03.959 And the number of things that Pete eloquently said, made me think, oh, hang on a 2nd. 17 00:02:04.019 --> 00:02:12.120 I should probably go back and revisit that So I think what's probably happening in the meantime is that I've learned to admire this more than I have. 18 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:21.419 But I'm still not sure if I like it anymore than I did the 1st time that I watched it, which was, you know, if we were to sort of apply a rating, maybe a 5.5 out of 10. 19 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:24.240 Oh, thanks, Tom. 20 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:35.699 I remember that conversation with you where we spent quite a few minutes talking about a town called Mercy, and I stand by my conviction on it, that this is the most precious thing in the Doctor Who universe. 21 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:38.280 This is a really strong standalone episode. 22 00:02:38.939 --> 00:02:44.520 I recall that too, because you turned to me and said, James, put us on that episode. 23 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:49.919 I remember that as well. 24 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:54.599 I didn't really raise it very highly when I 1st saw it. 25 00:02:54.659 --> 00:03:08.219 It's the Todd experience again, but I think it is extremely strong, and it is partly down to some really, really good central performances. 26 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.659 So we've got Adrian Scarborough as Carla Jackson. 27 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:17.039 And we have Matthew Smith as the doctor. 28 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:21.780 And I think he is really absolutely extraordinary in this. 29 00:03:22.379 --> 00:03:26.219 It may actually be his best performance as the doctor. 30 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:27.479 I'm just putting that out there. 31 00:03:27.539 --> 00:03:30.060 Yeah, I think it probably is close to it. 32 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:39.719 I had thought that the longer that Matt goes on the more kind of the more matt-like he becomes. 33 00:03:39.780 --> 00:03:43.020 You know, he does, yeah, he does the usual Matt things. 34 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:49.080 But here he finds interesting things to do with just about every line. 35 00:03:49.139 --> 00:03:52.560 And there's some thought and complexity. 36 00:03:52.620 --> 00:03:53.460 And I don't know. 37 00:03:53.520 --> 00:04:01.560 I get the impression that Matt's very instinctive rather than sort of cerebral, but his instincts are good and I think he does a great job here. 38 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:13.080 So can I jump ahead to talk about that scene inside the space pod, Carla Jackson's pod, which I think might be the best scene that Matt Smith ever films for Doctor Who. 39 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:22.199 So when he is watching the war crimes on the screen and he realises what Carla Jex has done and it's all, the images are flickering over his face. 40 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:35.819 And he does a very, like what we remember Matt Smith form, what we celebrate him for is the fact that he does really great business and he gives off slightly off the wall reactions and things and he's very doctor-ish, but he just, he completely underplays it. 41 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:37.740 He watches what's happening. 42 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:48.120 He just looks away with a look of kind of indefinable sadness and disgust on his face and then has to look back at the screen and take it in. 43 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:51.120 And I think it might be his finest acting moment, Doctor. 44 00:04:51.180 --> 00:04:56.819 He clearly is forcing himself to look back and it's all just in the performance. 45 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.579 There's no dialogue in that at all. 46 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:19.680 I just found one where there's a scene towards the end of the episode where an angry mob comes to kind of lynch, Carla Jax, and the doctor is the marshal, and he's there to defend him, and there's that young man, the 18 year old boy. 47 00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:22.680 And the doctor confronts him and does the sort of thing. 48 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:30.300 You know, it's like, it's like Sylvester McCoy talking the snipers down from the balcony and the happiness patrol only much better. 49 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:39.839 And then he turns around, walks between Amy and Rory, and then just gives this smile, this happy smile, and it's kind of like, what's that? 50 00:05:39.899 --> 00:05:40.980 What are you doing there? 51 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:42.360 It's such an odd choice. 52 00:05:42.420 --> 00:05:54.540 And it's just his capacity to surprise you with thoughtful, interesting things. whether it's business, whether it's facial expressions. 53 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:57.180 I've talked about his anger. 54 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:12.899 And I think when he has heard about Jax's crimes and then comes back to confront him and he absolutely underplays that, except for one moment, he says, sit down and then he shouts it. 55 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.360 And when he shouts, it's so terrifying. 56 00:06:16.860 --> 00:06:19.620 And Adrian Scarborough actually recoils in the house. 57 00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:22.740 Yeah, and falls onto the bed. ice becoming fire. 58 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:24.660 No, absolutely. 59 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:29.939 I agree with you that that Matt is really good here, Pete. and Nathan, all those examples that you've pointed to. 60 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:40.680 There's that wonderful dichotomy about Matt's doctor, which is that, you know, old man trapped in the young man's body and that ancient being actually trapped in a young man's body, that we see moments like that. 61 00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:52.860 And of course, like the silliness that comes from that youthful exuberance from the actor himself, you know, things like, you know, the opening lines around, you know, dry clean only, and, you know, has someone seen my Christmas list, all of that is just wonderfully doctorish, as you say, Pete. 62 00:06:52.980 --> 00:07:00.600 I think it's aided by the fact that the doctor, this is a story about the doctor and it's sort of played out through 3 characters that all sort of like foils it for him. 63 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:06.060 And, you know, Amy doesn't have a great deal to do, like, or really, what's Rory doing there? 64 00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:11.639 This is a very doctor specific and doctor centric episode and I think Matt really rises to that. 65 00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:12.420 I do agree with that. 66 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.060 And that's probably one of the things that I've reappraised in coming back to it. 67 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:15.720 I think you're right. 68 00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:41.819 When we were watching it just now, we were talking a little bit about the fact that, of course, the doctor is in some sense, as a war criminal, and perhaps a worse one than Carla Jex, but the episode doesn't kind of lean into it, and it doesn't make the mistake of giving us a sort of goopy speech about how the doctor feels bad about killing all the people on Gallifrey or whatever. 69 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:44.459 We kind of just take it as red. 70 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:50.519 And Jex recognises that in the doctor, but that's basically it, isn't it? 71 00:07:51.300 --> 00:08:00.360 There's that terrifying scene where he just drags Jex out and pushes him over the line so that the gunslinger can get him. 72 00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:10.500 And I think you have to read that as his self-hatred, in a way, that he's reacting to something injects that is present in himself. 73 00:08:10.980 --> 00:08:12.839 I think that's true. 74 00:08:12.899 --> 00:08:17.399 And I think one of the things that I think Toby Whouse does really well is right to a theme. 75 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:23.339 And the theme is often exploring what the doctor's moral dimension and aspects are. 76 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:34.740 And here what we have is, um, there's a discourse of choice between the utilitarian argument, and that's that trolly problem, I guess, where certainly up until probably is at the end of act two. 77 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:52.500 Um, you know, Matt Smith has, or the doctor has very much sort of reverted to that because he spent too much time away from his companions. you know, who are the moral, moral force in his life, as against that sort of more moral argument, a more moral sort of aspect about doctor, which, you know, very much sort of comes into play in that 3rd act and the resolution tool. 78 00:08:52.559 --> 00:09:09.720 Although I'm not sure the resolution is quite as tidy as it should be, and I'll talk about that later on, perhaps, but this is definitely like a story about whether the doctor chooses to do good on the basis of the, you know, the um, the utilitarian principle, the greatest good for the greatest number. 79 00:09:09.779 --> 00:09:15.480 Or whether actually there's a higher standard, uh, to which the character should be, should be held. 80 00:09:15.539 --> 00:09:17.580 And I think that's always fascinating. 81 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:24.120 And I think it is something that Toby Whithouse has written, particularly well here, for the most part. 82 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:46.559 And I think also it's something that he likes to do again and again, like the way in which there's a character or a foil for the doctor in the other episodes that he's written, whether it's, you know, Tony Head's character, in school reunion, whether it's actually the, the, uh, the minor tour slash Naimon in in the god complex, there's a sort of, you know, a correlation against, uh, the doctor's, um, and Carla Jax, I guess, in this one as well. 83 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:49.679 Um, I think it's, I think it's super fascinating. 84 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:55.320 And there's definitely sort of emotional depth to be mined there and philosophical depth to be mined there. 85 00:09:55.379 --> 00:09:58.620 So I appreciate that about this story a lot more than perhaps I did previously too. 86 00:09:58.740 --> 00:10:03.179 I mean, I'd love to know which came first, the chicken or the eggs. 87 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:18.779 So did he set out to make a story about the doctor, as you were talking about, and then crafted the character of Carla X, or do you come up with the character of Carla X with all that murky morality there, and then decide that that would play well with the doctor's character and so went there. 88 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:23.279 It's why this story works so well for me because it feels like a showrunner story. 89 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:25.379 That's something that a showrunner would be concerned with. 90 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:26.100 Sure. 91 00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:26.519 Yeah. 92 00:10:26.580 --> 00:10:27.539 I think that's a good point. 93 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:52.679 I think what I like, too, is that the answer isn't obvious, and it doesn't seem to definitely come down on one side or the other, and you have Rory and Amy on opposite sides of the question, should the doctor save the people of mercy by pushing Jets over the line? 94 00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:56.700 which is something he clearly deserves. 95 00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:57.000 Yeah. 96 00:10:57.059 --> 00:11:10.559 And when the doctor initially finds out about the crimes and the gunslinger is there when he gets out of the pod, he says, we can put him on trial. 97 00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:13.559 You don't have to kill him. you don't have to do revenge. 98 00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:16.679 We can put him on trial and he's shut down. 99 00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:19.080 He says, look, he hasn't harmed you. 100 00:11:19.139 --> 00:11:21.419 He's harmed me and my people. 101 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:25.200 And so it's going to be my justice that applies. 102 00:11:25.259 --> 00:11:27.779 And that's reasonable. 103 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:37.559 And so that utilitarian argument does seem to work because there is a sense in which he's deserved it. 104 00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:39.000 He's caused harm. 105 00:11:39.059 --> 00:11:45.120 Those sorts of harms need to be punished because it's important that we discourage people from doing it again. 106 00:11:45.659 --> 00:11:58.080 But there is also the, is the doctor the sort of person who pushes people over the line so they can get gunned down by, you know, like this week's monster? 107 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.980 And clearly he isn't that kind of person either. 108 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:07.200 And we have someone who has done some good as well. 109 00:12:07.259 --> 00:12:10.080 And I think that's interesting. 110 00:12:10.139 --> 00:12:14.519 You know, they position Jex as someone who's saved the town's population from cholera. 111 00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:17.580 So he saved people as well. 112 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:19.620 Yeah, yeah. 113 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:39.360 I think, though, like the story is pushing us in a particular direction, and it is in that moral dimension, that higher standard that the doctor should be held against, and ultimately plays out, by the way, in the 50th, like the way that that choice is made in the barn, I think very much sort of echos the choice that's made here as well, and the realisation that is again, um, only come to because of the good of the companions. 114 00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:43.919 You know, my friends have always been the best to me as a doctor has said in the past and here it is, you know, happening again. 115 00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:55.139 It's clever in the sense that the, the, the setting of the story, um, sort of helps to, to promote that in, um, mercy, which is a town that is, is not named for no reason, right? 116 00:12:55.200 --> 00:13:05.759 There's essentially one man who, which is Isaac, who really stands for this idea of redemption, and the rest of the townsfolk who really sort of are standing for this idea of atonement. 117 00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:16.799 And it's that whole thing about, well, atonement would be, yes, dragging, you know, Carla Jax and throwing him over that line and letting the gunslinger, you know, do what he needs to do and justice for to be served. 118 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:27.539 But that's not really the point because that higher standard around redemption rather than atonement, I think, is something that, uh, is played out through the setting of that town of mercy. 119 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:35.399 And, you know, the character of Isaac, who then deputises, you know, his his sheriff's badge to the doctor, who now becomes the figure of redemption as well. 120 00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:43.440 I think that there is a really, really electric scene between the doctor and Jex, and it's when he's in the prison. 121 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:54.600 And when he's accusing the doctor of being confused by the fact that he's a good man and a bad man at the same time. 122 00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:58.620 I'm not just one thing, I'm not just a war criminal. 123 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:03.179 I'm complex because I help people here and you can't handle that. 124 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:04.980 You don't know how to deal with it. 125 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.919 And the doctor just rejects that completely. 126 00:14:07.980 --> 00:14:13.679 He turns around and says, no, you don't get to do your own redemption. 127 00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:16.919 You don't get to pay your own price. 128 00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:24.720 You don't get to decide that you're a good person because you've saved some people in this little town. 129 00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:28.200 I think you compared this to Boomtown. 130 00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:37.320 That's right, where Margaret Slovine says that just because the doctor accuses her and says you get to live with yourself, because occasionally you let one of them go. 131 00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:44.279 And so she's convinced herself that she can be a good and moral person because occasionally she does something rise. 132 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:45.240 Yeah. 133 00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:46.019 Yeah. 134 00:14:46.080 --> 00:15:06.299 And so Jax has evaded justice and evaded punishment and he's decided that this life that he has, where he's actually quite well regarded and he's able to help people, that that's sufficient penance, that that's his atonement, and that's not good enough. 135 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.360 And the show doesn't sort of dwell on his crimes. 136 00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:14.940 Like, we get to see the scale of his crimes just through Matt's reaction in that scene that we had before. 137 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.879 And through the minisode prequel. 138 00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:20.159 Oh, what was the minisode prequel? 139 00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.320 It's called the making of the gunslinger. 140 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:22.799 Ooh. 141 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:24.720 It's very low budget. 142 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:30.419 But basically, you know, bits being strapped onto the actor. 143 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.080 And sounds of like bone sores. 144 00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:34.919 Yeah, okay. 145 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.220 Wasn't that awesome the name of the documentary on the gunfighters DVD? 146 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:45.120 It was very, I think it was the same sound effects that they used in Cybermen. 147 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:47.639 Yeah, in Battersea Power Station. 148 00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:48.779 Oh, yeah. 149 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.559 So I have a couple of things to say about that. 150 00:15:52.620 --> 00:16:00.899 It's interesting that Jex basically wants to determine his own goodness or badness and he sort of carries that through. 151 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.440 He doesn't give the gunslinger the chance to have his revenge. 152 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:11.759 He takes his own life at the end, which is a really, yeah, that's a morally complex thing because did he get his comeuppance or not? 153 00:16:11.820 --> 00:16:12.179 Yeah. 154 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.220 Yeah, he gets to go out on his own terms. 155 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:28.320 And it is expressed in a way like he says that he is relieving he's relieving the gunslinger of the guilt of killing another person. 156 00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:35.279 So he does say that I'm not going to make you continue with this war. going to end it for you. 157 00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:38.100 But he does escape on his own terms. 158 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:41.039 He still decides on his own atonement. 159 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:43.440 The jury is out on how self- serving that is. 160 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:43.980 Yeah. 161 00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:46.259 He gets to have his cake and exploded too. 162 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.240 But then his TikTok. 163 00:16:50.279 --> 00:17:06.180 But then that scene that I was talking about before continues because after the doctor has rejected Jex's kind of self-assessment, then we get the talk about what happens to the Carla in the afterlife. 164 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.660 And that's kind of beautiful and poetic. 165 00:17:09.660 --> 00:17:15.480 And it is a way for him to express the guilt that he is feeling. 166 00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:23.160 Like he, he does feel the weight of all of the people that he's wronged. 167 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:30.839 I do agree and I think, you know, it really sort of echos and brings to mind Dante's purgatory. 168 00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:42.480 It's just, you know, slightly sort of revised where you're climbing a mountain, except here you're carrying souls, you know, that you've robbed in the meantime, until you're finally sort of expunged of those sins. 169 00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:51.420 But I think one of the things that sort of um, maybe undermines it for me, one's about motivation and ultimately it's about resolution as well. 170 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:57.059 In terms of motivation, the doctor is a war criminal and let's not pretend he isn't because he is, but he's the war criminal who regrets. 171 00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:59.759 He absolutely regrets his choices. 172 00:17:59.819 --> 00:18:04.799 Whereas, you know, Carla X has stated that he's almost proud of what you did. 173 00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:08.759 You know, half of the population were decimated, so that makes it, what, 5%, Nathan? 174 00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:09.240 Is that right? 175 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.220 Yeah, yeah, that is pretty bad. 176 00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:20.220 I don't think decimate really has to mean 10%, but I do think it's a problem quoting another fraction in the same sentence. 177 00:18:20.460 --> 00:18:23.400 Didn't they watch the sound of girls? 178 00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:27.119 But he's a war criminal who actually thinks he's a hero. 179 00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:28.980 You know, I ended the war, he says. 180 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:39.720 And that motivation is something that I don't think quite, you know, leaves him like, yes, he is fearful of the afterlife, his, you know, his own gods and his own punishment, et cetera, in the afterlife. 181 00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:43.319 But there's something that doesn't quite pay off. 182 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:47.220 And if we sort of jump now to act 3 in the way that sort of pans out. 183 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:55.440 The dilemma that's set up isn't, I don't feel particularly well served in the way that um, Jex basically um, kills himself. 184 00:18:55.500 --> 00:19:05.519 One is sort of adds 20 minutes to the plot after which, uh, you know, the the gun slinger should have shot Jex, uh, at the border there. 185 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:09.119 So it sort of feels a bit like padding it unearned. 186 00:19:09.180 --> 00:19:17.940 But the doctor's plan of, you know, getting the, you know, this war criminal away to then, you know, perhaps go somewhere else only for the fight to continue, isn't a resolution, is a deferment. 187 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:23.880 There's something missing there in terms of, well, what is that redemptive, you know, the doctor is a moral force. 188 00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:24.539 What is his plan? 189 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:41.099 Ultimately, I don't think it sort of reaches that, that sort of that it does in day of the doctor, where we have the absolute, you know, one most wonderful moments of the doctor's life where he actually does save the day and he saves it on his own terms, which is, you know, to that higher spiral standard. 190 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:42.359 That doesn't happen here. 191 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:54.000 And and the suicide is just an easy narrative way to finish up and wrap up this really complex Gordian knot of a philosophical and ethical dilemma, I feel. 192 00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:59.640 I just don't think the show has ambitions to properly resolve that. 193 00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:17.339 I think that it deliberately presents us with a moral issue where there isn't a very clear answer and where the characters themselves differ in how it should be handled. 194 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:31.440 And I think, when the gunslinger talks about what Jex did, he suggests that that was honourable behaviour, and so he's in a sense satisfied by it. 195 00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:39.720 But that's just one opinion, you know, and it's hard to believe that that's the doctor's opinion. 196 00:20:39.779 --> 00:20:45.059 I mean, the doctor very gracelessly agrees to go with the plan, I think. 197 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:55.740 I think he's visibly unhappy with the plan to let Jex go and he's angry with him whenever he speaks to him because he's not on board with it. 198 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:57.960 But that is part of what I like. 199 00:20:58.019 --> 00:21:17.640 This is the reason that I liked it, and I think the reason that you don't like it, Stephen, is it feels like an extension of the themes of the episode where the doctor sees himself in Carla X. And so he can't bring himself to loathe what he did because the doctor did the same thing and the doctor is racked with the same guilt about what he did. 200 00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:27.119 And so letting Jex go to when deferring it for another day is kind of what just the doctor has done. just like kind of lived with it and moved on. 201 00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:29.220 Yeah, that's a really good point actually. 202 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:29.579 Yeah. 203 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:32.880 I guess, I guess for me, it just, it set up those things. 204 00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:34.200 I think, Nathan, you're probably right. 205 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:39.420 Doctor Who, as a show, doesn't really get a chance to do that, although it does it in isolated incidents. 206 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:40.740 I think the Beast Blow does it. 207 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:54.420 I think the day the doctor absolutely does it, where, you know, the day is saved and saved in, you know, to the highest possible moral standard that the doctor should on his best day, you know, ascribe to us as the promise rather than perhaps a person. 208 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:58.680 But it reminds me of something actually that going back to my grad days. 209 00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:02.940 Hamlet and his problems is an essay written by TSL in 1919. 210 00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:13.500 And he talks about how Hamlet has an enormous structural problem in the sense that it brings up all of these, you know, complicated, you know, depth psychological aspects, but it doesn't resolve them. 211 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:21.059 It doesn't find the narrative framework and what he calls the objective correlatives, with which to pay off on those and resolve them adequately. 212 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.400 And that's kind of what I feel happens here. 213 00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:34.559 We have these incredible, you know, wonderful, you know, arguments, philosophical, ethical, um, you know, I've, I've really come to, uh, admire the craft and the art with which the stories put together. 214 00:22:34.619 --> 00:22:40.079 We saw Met segment we haven't talked about yet, but my god, this is one of those beautiful looking Doctor Who stories there ever has been. 215 00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:45.539 And I think all of that sort of has so much promise, but for me, and maybe it's just, again, Pete. 216 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:49.740 This is just the way that I react to it and it's different to the way that you've reacted to it. 217 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:59.220 I feel like there isn't that satisfactory, you know, narrative structure through which that problem and that dilemma is ultimately resolved in a satisfying way. 218 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.279 Whereas, I do find that in the beast below. 219 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.380 And I do find that absolutely in the day of the doctor. 220 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:10.740 It's interesting because when we did our god complex podcast, obviously, also written by Toby Wickhouse. 221 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.559 I think Conrad said exactly the same thing. 222 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:19.140 Yeah, that it's muddy, that it's not quite sure what it's trying to say. 223 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:30.180 But I think here the difference is that we have an intractable moral problem and the episode doesn't try and resolve it in any kind of overt way. 224 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.140 And in fact, the resolution is entirely about the gunslinger, isn't it? 225 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.019 It's kind of like, what does the gunslinger do? 226 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:40.140 You know, because we've got, we've got a kind of happy ending. 227 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:46.140 Like, the doctor says something like you might have no role in peace, but you could protect it. 228 00:23:46.200 --> 00:24:01.559 And then, then don't we can't, to him being zany and talking about the dogs and monkeys, set up into space and we're all off on jolly adventures and stuff now because it's been resolved. 229 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:09.660 And then we get the sort of that weird mythic thing where the gunslinger turns into this sort of mythic protector. 230 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:12.180 Absolutely. 231 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:19.799 And, and, you know, I talked earlier about the 3, you know, well, 2 foils, but perhaps all foils for one another, the doctor, Carla Jex, and the gunslinger. 232 00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:27.539 These are all variations on the archetype of the stranger, which is no stranger in itself to the Western genre, right? 233 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:32.700 The, the, you know, man in the white hat arrives in your town, does most amazing and wonderful things. 234 00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:35.940 And then before you can thank him or even asking why he disappears into the sunset. 235 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.200 That's the doctor. 236 00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:39.000 That's also now Carla Jackson. 237 00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:40.140 That's also the gunslinger. 238 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:50.460 There's a thematic resonance that sort of ties those 3 characters together, each of whom have a different sort of moral and philosophical framework, but they ultimately serve as protectors to the innocent. 239 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:52.619 I think I think that's also really wonderful, Pete. 240 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:58.079 Something that I perhaps missed that 1st time around, but you know, I really, really appreciated this time round. 241 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:16.859 Let's talk about this as a Western. 242 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:19.079 We started to allude to that a little bit. 243 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:30.900 I mean, it works as a Western in the sense that it is a mysterious stranger arrives and solves our problems and then goes or 3 mysterious strangers. 244 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:36.779 And in fact, we do get some weird confusions among the roles, don't we? 245 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:44.039 The voiceover sounds like it's talking about the doctor at the very beginning of the episode. 246 00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:56.099 Then we have the confusion between the doctor and Carla Jex, where Jex actually says, I'm the doctor at one point. then we discover she wasn't talking about the doctor at all, but the gunslinger. 247 00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.339 So it works as a Western in all sorts of ways. 248 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.819 But where is this shot? 249 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.259 El Maria. 250 00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:04.799 In Spain. 251 00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:07.799 Do they have a Western town lying around in Spain? 252 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:08.400 Yeah. 253 00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:13.740 It's a Hollywood set. the leftovers of the Spaghetti Western genre films. 254 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:14.940 So, yeah. 255 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:16.200 It's amazing. 256 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.660 Yeah, it looks fantastic. 257 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:19.920 Yeah, yeah. incredible. 258 00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:24.960 I mean, I'd have been happy if they just went into the studio and set up a flat of the last chance salute. 259 00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:33.900 But I mean, they don't even do that in the gunfighters that we thought the gunfighters looked impressive at the time because we were in a big studio. 260 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.480 We're riding horses around and stuff like that. 261 00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:38.460 But this is massive. 262 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:42.480 Actually, the gunfighters also includes the doctor in a white hat coming into town. 263 00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:47.759 But this is huge, this location. 264 00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:51.480 It just looks so convincing and so real. 265 00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:59.160 And the director, and it's all, yeah, well, he, he only does things in series seven. 266 00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:02.400 He's just here for this series and then he never comes back. 267 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:03.480 That's right, isn't it? 268 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.079 That's right. 269 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.839 Yeah. and he is amazingly good I think. 270 00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:12.059 He's got a terrific sense of what he's putting in the frame. 271 00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:14.819 Um, I guess you call it Miseonsen. 272 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.000 But thank you, James. 273 00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:22.440 That's French for putting in the frame. 274 00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:31.859 But I think because there is a big moral question here, it's served by a big backdrop. 275 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:40.079 So the fact that it's got production value, and that's played out against something which looks quite grand, really helps the episode. 276 00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:42.960 It wouldn't have worked in a corner of the studio. 277 00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:44.220 No, no. 278 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:46.079 I think it just looks amazing. 279 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:47.759 Absolutely. 280 00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:49.559 Epic is the word that comes to mind. 281 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.119 It's epic in terms of its direction. 282 00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:55.319 There's somewhat wonderful and incredible twilight shots or whether it's early dawn. 283 00:27:55.380 --> 00:28:05.640 I'm not really sure, but the sun on, on that slanted angle sort of with that golden hue coming through, you know, this one shot where the doctor's riding off into the distance on, uh, um, on Susan. 284 00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:11.819 And I just think it looks... back and watch series one of Doctor Who, that would create some problems. 285 00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:15.119 Or watch coupling. 286 00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:20.339 But it also feels epic through its intertextuality. 287 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:30.779 Like, we have all seen those Saturday matinees film growing growing up on channel 7 or whatever the case is of, you know, the John Waynes and, you know, you know, the Clint Eastwood films and all the rest of it. 288 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:39.839 Like it, it hearkens back to those, that kind of genre, which, uh, you know, maybe feels a little bit old and, you know, my dad was a great fan of it, but I could never really get into it. 289 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:48.059 It sort of felt just that generation or two, you know, before me that I just couldn't resonate with, but I can definitely appreciate the cinematography of it. 290 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:54.059 But the other thing, of course, is like it feels epic through intertextuality around the very mythos of the Western. 291 00:28:54.119 --> 00:29:00.720 And it's one of those things that continually surprises me that we're not talking about the 1700s. 292 00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:05.220 We're talking about the 1880s and I think maybe it's 1890s that this story is set. 293 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:13.140 I mean, to put that into perspective, so October 1881, okay, corral, uh, the shootout, the okay corral, so the gunfighters, that's what that set, Pete. 294 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.859 Um, and Billy the Kid is shot in the same year in July of that year as well. 295 00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:26.039 Now, to compare what's happening at the same time in terms of American literature, Henry James has just written the portrait of a lady. 296 00:29:26.099 --> 00:29:31.680 And to think that those 2 things are happening at the same time. my mind. 297 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:40.680 And it really means that I think we're talking as much about a mythic setting or a mythic period than an actual time that existed. 298 00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:42.660 And I think that really helps with this story as well. 299 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:49.500 So that it appears to be set in a Western rather than in America's history. 300 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:50.400 Exactly right. 301 00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:54.660 Yeah, like in some sort of parallel, you know, Hollywood version of history. 302 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:55.500 Yeah. 303 00:29:55.500 --> 00:30:06.180 It's funny because Doctor Who and the Western are such kind of distinct entities that it's odd and yet understandable that they've crossed over so few times. 304 00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:10.200 Doctor in the Western is basically just the gunfighters and a town called Mercy. 305 00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:13.140 And for all the reasons it doesn't work in the gunfighters. 306 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:20.759 It does work in a town called Mercia, because it takes all of those archetype characters, like the sheriff and stranger and does something interesting with them. 307 00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:27.900 And it's a very difficult marriage of genres, which is why I appreciate this episode because it makes it work. 308 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.740 Special shout out to the sheriff who is hot as hell. 309 00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:32.640 Yeah, clam chowder. 310 00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:33.059 Yeah. 311 00:30:33.059 --> 00:30:35.039 Ben Browder. 312 00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:37.079 He's really good, I think. 313 00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:41.940 And a kind of he gets to participate in the moral conversation, doesn't he? 314 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:55.380 The decision not to let the mob kill Jex is honouring Isaac's memory and Jex recognises that Isaac's death is another thing that he's responsible for. 315 00:30:55.980 --> 00:31:03.720 I think he's a really fascinating character and Pete, you know, this idea of, you know, Doctor Who and Westerns and the sort of uneasy alliance between them. 316 00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:10.200 I think Isaac really sort of is the crucible in which those discourses clash and meet. 317 00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:15.420 So he is, as I said before, the sole figure for redemption and the advocate for redemption in this town of atonement. 318 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.640 Even though the town is called mercy. 319 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:27.720 He's the one who sort of stands up for what, in his own words, America is a land of 2nd chances, that there is something perhaps idealistic about what it is to be an American. 320 00:31:27.779 --> 00:31:43.140 But at the same time, he talks about a war that had just finished, which I'm assuming is the Civil War, perhaps in America, and that this is also a society and a culture and a nation that is still under the surface, you know, shaped by that violence. 321 00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:53.940 And that's very different in terms of the, um, the character of the doctor, which is, you know, that, you know, I think you've said Nathan many times in the past a long time ago. 322 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:57.960 But this is sort of like the Edwardian Victorian amateur scientist. 323 00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:01.920 You know, it's a very, very different archetype and a very different character. 324 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:22.440 And I think the, um, you know, the shaping of an Isaac character who is clearly the town's hero prior to the doctor arriving, I think, uh, is so at odds in terms of, you know, he's a gunslinger and himself, against the doctor who, at least in my mind, shouldn't be picking up a gun, and that's one of the other gripes, by the way, that I have about this story. 325 00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:23.940 Yeah, at some point. 326 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:25.440 But I think we're meant to. 327 00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:33.059 I mean, it's it's absolutely playing on that and it's not made explicit, but it is that self-hatred, I think. 328 00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:37.140 It is absolutely his reaction to someone who did what he did. 329 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:38.940 Yeah. 330 00:32:39.059 --> 00:32:40.380 Yeah, it's absolutely true. 331 00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:40.859 I agree. 332 00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:53.099 No, I mean, all of those things, that sort of complexity and the ambiguity around, you know, the moral and ethical dimensions of this story, like really have made me reevaluate, just how, how complex it is. 333 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:59.160 Whereas before I genuinely thought, oh, You know, that was an episode of Doctor Who, I think it's a lot more thought out and complex than that now. 334 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:03.059 And actually, I can understand why this episode doesn't land for everybody. 335 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:12.059 I mean, I don't think anyone or many people would say that it was a failure of an episode, but I can't understand why it doesn't speak to people in the same way as it speaks to me. 336 00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:22.380 So Adrian Scarborough's been in everything. 337 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:27.539 Yeah, so you were looking at his IMDb page before, I think. 338 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.619 James. 339 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.059 No, it wasn't, I just know it. 340 00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:31.619 Of course you do, darling. 341 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.079 He was in the History Boys. 342 00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:37.380 Everyone was in history boys. mystery wise, of course. 343 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.380 He wasn't one of the eponymous boys, though, was he? 344 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:42.839 No, you'd hope you'd hope not. 345 00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:45.000 That would have been very American cast. 346 00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:48.420 Was he in the theatre version as well or just film? 347 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:49.200 Not sure. 348 00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:51.119 They were transplanted. 349 00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:54.779 He was he was Pete in Gavin and Stacy. 350 00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:55.980 Yep, yep. 351 00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:58.019 We recognise him from Psychoville. 352 00:33:58.079 --> 00:33:58.380 Yes. 353 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.720 He was Mr. Jolly in Psychoville? 354 00:34:00.779 --> 00:34:08.159 There was the butler in the revamped upstairs downstairs doing a very thankless role taking over from Gordon Jackson in the original and doing it phenomenally. 355 00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:11.159 Yeah, I mean, he's never not been working. 356 00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:13.199 He is that guy. 357 00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:14.579 He's very familiar. 358 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:23.159 And I remember kind of knowing who he was, but without being able to sort of put my finger on where I'd seen him before. 359 00:34:23.579 --> 00:34:30.719 And he is incredibly great, I think, really quite an extraordinary performance. 360 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:43.079 It's that thing that Doctor Who does quite frequently, where you've got a really good guest role, and from the 1st moment that this actor appears, you're at your ease thinking they're absolutely going to perform this to the hilt. 361 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:47.579 Yeah, and I think, I mean, the character itself is super interesting. 362 00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:55.139 I mean, when you give it to someone like that who's a supremely talented actor, it's essentially like a mild mannered Joseph Mengele. 363 00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:58.920 It's incredible, incredible mishmash. 364 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:07.559 No, he's superb in this. absolutely, you know, and you need that, don't you? 365 00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:18.300 Because if this is essentially the doctor's foil, I wouldn't say nemesis, but, you know, very much, you know, a twisted mirror image of what the doctor character is, and he's got to be someone who absolutely can bring it. 366 00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:19.920 So he was wonderful, I agree. 367 00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:24.599 I thought an interesting aspect of the character was the empathy. 368 00:35:24.659 --> 00:35:27.840 So his ability to judge what Amy was like. 369 00:35:27.900 --> 00:35:33.300 And that scene is actually really quite extraordinary because he nails Amy. 370 00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:34.800 You know, you're a mother. 371 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:42.840 I think that complexity in that character is actually something that is a strength in this episode. 372 00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:44.880 He has that empathy. 373 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.280 And he committed these crimes. 374 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:55.380 It actually makes his crimes even worse because he can actually appreciate how terrible what he did was. 375 00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.019 And it's just why he's so conflicted. 376 00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:07.019 Well, and I think, you know, the weight that he feels, you know, the burden that he expects to bear when he's climbing up that mountain, you know, like he's not bunging that on. 377 00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:08.639 I think he clearly means that. 378 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:13.739 We've seen, you know, him actually being understanding and empathetic. 379 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:22.440 The interesting thing in that scene, though, is, again, that performance where he says, oh, I'm a father, I guess, in a way. 380 00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:34.079 And then the reaction to that, because we find out that that's actually his father in the sense that he, you know, sawed someone's limbs off and kind of stuck things in their head. 381 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:34.860 In the same way. 382 00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:37.079 Frankenstein. 383 00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:42.480 Yeah, that's right. was the monster's father, which is why it's okay to call the monster Frankenstein. 384 00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:49.079 But also, Frankenstein was the monster all along. 385 00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:51.000 He was the monster monster. 386 00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:54.599 Yeah, well, he's played by Kenneth Brenner. 387 00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:07.500 But there's just a look on his face where it's clear that he's conscious of what a dreadful thing he's done that yet he can't stop congratulating. 388 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:08.219 Yeah, yeah. 389 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:08.820 Yeah. 390 00:37:08.820 --> 00:37:09.179 Yeah. 391 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.380 Yeah, and again, I guess if we're trolly probleming it. 392 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:27.059 You know, it's a little bit like the, remember the variant of the trolly problem, which is where you get someone in a doctor's waiting room and you sort of carve them up, they're quite well, but you carve them up and give their vital organs to 5 other people. 393 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:31.860 So those 5 people survive and, you know, numerically we're ahead. 394 00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.539 He's doing that. 395 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:34.980 Isn't he during the war? 396 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:38.820 He's taking a small number of people who are volunteers, he says. 397 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.280 Except they didn't know what they were volunteering. 398 00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:42.539 Well, there's that. 399 00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:51.599 And he ends the war in weeks and saves 1000000s and 1000000s of people by brutalising and torturing a small number of people. 400 00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:58.019 And so there's another aspect and we've circled all the way background to the moral issues. 401 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.219 There's another kind of aspect to that, I think. 402 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.980 You know, he says he's a war hero. 403 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:15.659 We can't really believe that, although in the moment the performance looks like, well, it's one person's hero is another person's villain. 404 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:17.280 So he probably is a hero to his own people. 405 00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:27.900 Yeah, but I mean, we know that he feels more deeply about what he's done than that, that sort of bravado, just based on how he reacts the rest of the time. 406 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:37.019 I love that scene between him and Amy because it does that thing which Good Doctor 2 always does where the villain has an independent relationship with the companion. 407 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:43.500 And it's always interesting because you almost always get a different facet of the villain when they're not dealing with the doctor. 408 00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:44.039 Yeah. 409 00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:51.480 Because the doctor has such moral certainty, not really in this episode, but usually he has such moral certainty, whereas the companion doesn't. 410 00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:51.840 Yeah. 411 00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:55.500 Let's talk about the arc. 412 00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:00.000 The series 7 AR, and we've been talking about this. 413 00:39:00.059 --> 00:39:05.340 Is there a line about how long it's been since Amy and Rory have seen the doctor? 414 00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:24.239 No, but there is a moment at the end, isn't there, where the doctor tries to lure them into the TARDIS with like the weirdest and most upsetting Florana speech in the shows. which he've alluded to before. 415 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:25.559 Dogs in space? 416 00:39:25.619 --> 00:39:26.460 Dogs in space. 417 00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:30.300 It'll take it'll take us until flux to get there. 418 00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:37.139 That's what happened to them and they travel back in time and became humanity's protectors. 419 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:38.639 All got wiped out. 420 00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:41.400 It all fits together so neatly. 421 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:44.820 And they say no. 422 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:48.539 They say, no, we should go back home. 423 00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.559 Our friends will be wondering why we're so much older than them. 424 00:39:52.619 --> 00:40:00.360 And I think that this is something that basically every episode has properly done so far. 425 00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:05.219 And it's such a great arc because it's nothing to do with space reasons. 426 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.500 It's just to do with how the characters feel about each other. 427 00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:08.699 Yeah, yeah. 428 00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:13.619 Well, that will doubtless pay off in a very satisfying way in episode five. 429 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:28.320 There are so many tropes about this episode, which are just interesting sort of throwaways, and are good for the characters. 430 00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:38.159 There's that bit where the doctor is examining the bullet hole through the hat, and when he says, who would shoot a hat or whatever, he says, all that fez related outrage? 431 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:39.239 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 432 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.599 Like this terrible, terrible villain who would shoot a hat. 433 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:43.679 It's so great. 434 00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:55.980 And that's what I was saying earlier about it feels like it's a showrunner episode because even though it's dealing with quite big issues and playing them out against an epic backdrop, you know, successfully or less successfully, depending on where you're coming from. 435 00:40:56.039 --> 00:41:01.500 It has time for all of these beautiful little moments which kind of colour the scenery. 436 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:10.440 This is what makes me appreciate this episode so much, is that it feels like an important episode for the show, even though it is absolutely a standalone episode. 437 00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:19.019 There's that moment too, where we've had this really, really fraught and emotional scene where the doctor is going to kick. 438 00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:21.539 Well, you know, kicks checks over the line. 439 00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:32.579 And then we get Amy doing the sort of comedy, you know, you've been taking stupid pills or whatever since I last or stupid lessons as though what she says. 440 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:51.840 And then she, she's gesticulating with a gun, which then goes off twice and you've got Isaac kind of yelling at her. you know, and all of that stuff like, like, Whitehouse can be funny and can write funny dialogue. he really does it here, I think. 441 00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:55.920 He's moffity in that he's wacky even when he's being serious. 442 00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:57.300 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 443 00:41:57.360 --> 00:41:57.719 Yeah. 444 00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:03.659 I was upset that the doctor didn't send Susan on her way with a jolly good smacked bottom. 445 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:10.920 I think that joke has, you know, aged like milk, hasn't it? 446 00:42:10.980 --> 00:42:15.179 It's well intentioned, but it's absolutely not the way we would express it now. 447 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:16.500 So it's a bit of a shame. 448 00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:18.719 I just like milk out in the western sun. 449 00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:19.679 Yeah, yeah. 450 00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:22.440 It's a bad thing. 451 00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:24.900 But I do like that he speaks horse. 452 00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:27.000 You know, like... 453 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:28.199 It's like it speaks for me. 454 00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:29.639 Baby, pony. 455 00:42:29.699 --> 00:42:30.360 Yeah, yeah. 456 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:32.940 He can speak horse, but he still misgenders them. 457 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:34.679 Yeah, no, no, no, that's right. 458 00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:38.820 But he does call her Susan a bit later and say that's kind of cool. 459 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:46.739 All of that stuff too, like with them out in the wilderness, you know, being hunted down by the gunslinger trying to evade him. 460 00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:54.179 There's one fantastic moment where the gunslinger shoots right near Isaac and Rory. 461 00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:57.179 And Rory goes, I think he's seen us. 462 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:04.380 Which is just a perfect distillation of Rory, who is there to state the obvious. 463 00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:08.940 But I mean, that's this episode all over. 464 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.460 It's funny and it's action packed and it has a moral dilemma and it's shot well. 465 00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:15.539 I mean, what's not to love? 466 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:16.440 Yeah, yeah. 467 00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:18.840 And it has some really extraordinarily good performances. 468 00:43:19.139 --> 00:43:34.440 Even the lesser characters, like you were talking earlier about the scene where the boy want to get and the boy is really good, even though he's essentially got one scene and then a bizarrely extended goodbye scene with the doctor. 469 00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:45.840 But I think the bizarrely extended goodbye scene is there to show that the doctor was right that he gets to be a kid at the end because the doctors prevented him from killing someone. 470 00:43:46.619 --> 00:44:04.260 And the doctor gets something in that scene that he doesn't get in the scene where he's pushing jets over the line because, and I guess I'm thinking of this for the 1st time, but we were talking about it a little bit before. 471 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:08.760 That killing someone affects you. 472 00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.659 It turns you into the kind of person that kills someone. 473 00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:17.340 And that's not the primary problem with killing people, obviously. 474 00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:18.179 Isn't it? 475 00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:18.659 No. 476 00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:37.380 So we have the doctor who looks like he's the kind of person who is going to allow Jex to be killed by the by the gunslinger, but he prevents the boy from being the same kind of person who would do that. 477 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:42.900 And so when we see the boy at the end, The boy is chilled, his face is relaxed, he's prettier. 478 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:44.940 He's just being a boy Yeah, yeah. 479 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:51.900 He gets to be a kid because he doesn't have the weight of having taken part in a lynch mob on his conscience. 480 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.960 I mean, Stephen, do you not think that's an effective thematic close? 481 00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:57.360 No, it is in that regard, definitely. 482 00:44:57.420 --> 00:44:59.820 And that's part of it that works for me, right? 483 00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:04.019 So we have Amy being the moral censure, that resenters the doctor. 484 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:16.380 And that is, you know, from that point onwards, the doctor is the doctor that we should be expecting and should have, that conversation about, is, you know, is Jex really worth the risk of trying to save? 485 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:18.780 And he says, I don't know, but you are. 486 00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:28.380 It's a superb doctor-ish moment because it speaks to the, you know, again, that sort of high moral standard that the doctor, um, as a promise, uh, should be kept to. 487 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:43.860 I guess my, my, I feel the shortcomings are, I kind of feel like we've seen this before, you know, the utilitarian choices has been something that we, you know, seen before, whether it's in Boomtown, as you say, or the beast below, and we'll see again in the day of the doctor in a much, much better way. 488 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:51.360 But also other things in terms of, you know, the doctor having, uh, needing to be, you know, re-centered in terms of his morality. 489 00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:54.239 Well, isn't that something that, you know, see before in the runaway bride? 490 00:45:54.300 --> 00:46:03.420 And then ultimately just the resolution itself doesn't match that sort of philosophical or ethical framework that the doctor has now come back to. 491 00:46:03.420 --> 00:46:07.920 And that maybe is probably what doesn't quite suit well for me, those 2 those 2 things. 492 00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:15.480 But it's still, you know, far more complex, far more nuanced, far more beautiful a story than probably I gave it 1st credit to. 493 00:46:15.539 --> 00:46:16.920 So, yeah. 494 00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:23.099 I think maybe it's the highlight of the 1st half of this season. agree with that. 495 00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:54.480 Well, Delicious, that's all we have time for this week. 496 00:46:54.539 --> 00:47:00.659 You'll be back next week for an extremely slow alien invasion in the power of three. 497 00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:20.639 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. 498 00:47:21.059 --> 00:47:23.400 Stephen, where can people find you? 499 00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:29.460 There is a backlog of episodes on the New to Who podcast, so you can find us at New to Who podcast. 500 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:34.079 We've taken a bit of a rest our world of recent times, but hope to be back in some point in the future. 501 00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:42.900 Until next time, remember that you can support the podcast by buying a Braxa security software for your next escape pod. 502 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.159 Don't forget to use the offer code war crime at checkout. 503 00:47:47.219 --> 00:47:49.800 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 504 00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:51.059 Good night. 505 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:51.840 Good night. 506 00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:52.860 Good seeing you. 507 00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:03.539 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Stephen B. James Selwood and Peter Griffiths. 508 00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:05.400 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 509 00:48:05.460 --> 00:48:11.940 This episode of mild mannered Joseph Mangola was recorded on the 20th of March 2022 and released on the 24th of April. 510 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:16.679 In a series with no two part stories, we probably won't get any pics of the week. 511 00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:24.300 So if you've enjoyed our conversation about moral philosophy, and if you love things that are really, really funny, Please watch Michael Shows The Good Place. 512 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:25.320 It's tremendous. 513 00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:35.219 I think we end it there. 514 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:35.699 What do you think? 515 00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:39.539 You have to call this episode mild mannered mangalay. 516 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:40.260 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 517 00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:41.519 Mild manner, Joseph Bengal. 518 00:48:41.579 --> 00:48:42.659 I've already decided it. 519 00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:56.219 It's a little bit on the nose for the episode title, but it's such a good, you know, it's such a good phrase. absolutely mentally saying title in my head as you said that. 520 00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:58.079 Yeah. 521 00:48:58.139 --> 00:49:04.199 And maybe if it's our mild mannered Joseph Mangler, that might be good or just mild mannered. 522 00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:06.840 No, A works better, yeah. 523 00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:08.159 Yeah, yeah, I think so too. 524 00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:13.980 Stephen, you did such a great job of articulating your slight misgivings with the episode. if I put you on the spot. 525 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:18.119 I didn't mean to put you on the spot at the end to go, well, do you not? 526 00:49:18.179 --> 00:49:19.920 Now, do you know what? 527 00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:22.619 This is exactly what I was preparing for. 528 00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:41.400 Like, this is this is how, like, I watched that again for the 1st time in my 10 years with our conversation in mind and hoping that we would be able to sort of come to a better resolution and understanding than, you know, I just wasn't able to when we were talking at your birthday because I just had that initial impression in my mind. 529 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:43.320 It's funny, isn't it? 530 00:49:43.380 --> 00:49:46.739 Because that the death is a cheat in a way. 531 00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.719 I agree with you. 532 00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:54.900 Like, I think it works on some level, but it also kind of solves the problem for us. 533 00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:02.340 It's kind of like we're wrestling with a moral dilemma and then he kills himself anyway, so we don't have to worry about it. 534 00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:11.940 And there are things to think about, you know, that are presented and all sorts of all that sort of thing. 535 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:16.679 Like I don't think Doctor Whoever comes down on the side of utilitarianism, really, does it? 536 00:50:16.739 --> 00:50:18.360 Ultimately, no. 537 00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:18.960 No. 538 00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:20.219 And it's about character. 539 00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:21.719 It's like virtue ethics almost. 540 00:50:21.780 --> 00:50:23.820 It is what sort of person are you? 541 00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.460 What sort of things would you be prepared to do? 542 00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:29.820 Um, Yeah. 543 00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:34.380 I mean, it's difficult to see a way that it would have ended. still addressing. 544 00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:35.400 Yeah, yeah. 545 00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:50.400 I think you kind of just have to do that And give him, if you give the doctor a motivation for doing it, which the show does, I think, successfully. and it preemptively comments on it as a cheat, you know, that you don't get to choose your own atonement speech. 546 00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:52.619 That's a good point, actually. 547 00:50:52.619 --> 00:50:55.019 And I haven't thought of that until you just said that then, Nathan. 548 00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:55.619 I think that's true. 549 00:50:55.739 --> 00:50:59.099 Maybe I need to watch it again and think about that. 550 00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:02.340 But yeah, like that that time that I watched it just yesterday. 551 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:07.500 My, my impression was, again, the objective correlative is not there. 552 00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:17.820 We're not able to contain the ethical, philosophical, you know, dimensions of of what's being, you know, explored here through the actual events of the narrative. 553 00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:24.840 Yeah, which isn't, you know, I mean, if that, if that, if Hamlet has the same problem, you know, and that's not, yes. 554 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:26.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. then that's that's not a huge fan. 555 00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:27.960 Yeah, yeah. 556 00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:45.840 It is, it's, it's, I think what Peter said about what we said about the God complex, about what Conrad said about the God complex, where I'm trying to create a coherent reading of it, and he says, actually, no, it's a mess. 557 00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:50.159 And I think that maybe that is a White House thing. 558 00:51:50.519 --> 00:52:15.000 Like, I, I, like, I think, you know, Widhouse would have been a better choice of showrunner than Chris Chipnall, but because he'd run a show before and all of that, even if it wasn't terrifically successful, but he'd run a genre show, you know, like he, he's funny, he's, but he's still not a Moffat or Russell, though, is he? 559 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:17.699 But in rare moments he can be. 560 00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:19.860 Yeah, he can be good. 561 00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:20.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 562 00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:22.679 No, Chibnell doesn't have rare moments. 563 00:52:22.739 --> 00:52:27.719 Although we were pretty positive about both of his, and I think he has 2 good episodes. 564 00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.599 Dime sauce on a spaceship is so much fun. 565 00:52:30.659 --> 00:52:32.400 It's great, isn't it? 566 00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.860 And plus killing David Bradley. 567 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:40.679 It's the opposite of what Jody's doctor would do, which would be, oh, all right, see you next time or whatever. 568 00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:45.179 And it's like Matt locks him in the thing and just lets missiles hit him. 569 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:46.260 I just think, woo hoo. 570 00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:51.480 That's what I want Walk away unscathed space Nazi. 571 00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:59.699 Actually, that's something that I forgot to mention, but this idea that, you know, the doctor would allow that to happen to, is it Saul? 572 00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:00.420 Is the name's character? 573 00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:01.380 Solomon. 574 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:02.699 Solomon, sorry, right? 575 00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.440 Very Old Testament. 576 00:53:04.500 --> 00:53:09.360 Um, you know, and his fate is very Old Testament as well, isn't it, really? 577 00:53:09.420 --> 00:53:19.079 Like, that's, that again is, is an example of, again, the doctor being alone for too long or, you know, not having that constant companionship and what he, he does. 578 00:53:19.139 --> 00:53:22.800 So maybe maybe that was sort of seeded in the previous episode as well. 579 00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:25.260 Yeah, he's unobserved doing it. 580 00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:33.360 None of none of the other characters know, but that's what he's done. that he's just let the missiles lock on. 581 00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:40.380 But given the horrific scale of the genocide that we're talking about, isn't that funny? 582 00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:49.860 Like it is, I think it's straightforwardly okay for the doctor to do that to Solomon, but I'm less happy with the doctor pushing Shara's Jek over the thing. 583 00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:51.840 Shara's Jack? 584 00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:52.619 That's what I called him. 585 00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:56.039 Carla Jex. didn't realise. 586 00:53:56.099 --> 00:53:57.179 I'm less happy about that. 587 00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.739 Did I ever call him Sharon's Jack in the episode? 588 00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:00.179 Okay, good. 589 00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:05.099 But I'm less happy about that, you know, and in a way, they're very similar. 590 00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:07.199 They're analogous situations. 591 00:54:07.260 --> 00:54:08.280 So I wonder what that is. 592 00:54:08.340 --> 00:54:14.639 On a related note, I'm happy that the gunslinger Carla Tech has named that because he's full of Carla Tech. 593 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:17.039 Yeah, so dumb, isn't it? 594 00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:19.559 I think he should be TK. 595 00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:26.820 But for some reason, the subtitles said he was Carla T-E-C-H, which I just think, oh, come on. 596 00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:28.079 Really? 597 00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:32.699 The great thing about the test, colour test. 598 00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:45.119 The great thing about the subtitles was like that kept subtitling the horse, horse snorts. winning in the background. 599 00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:46.619 Winnie. 600 00:54:46.619 --> 00:54:49.260 Four snorts derisively. 601 00:54:49.260 --> 00:54:50.820 You just misgendered her. 602 00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:52.199 So good.