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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:20:13

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast armed with projectile acid fish and ready to use them.

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After all, it's Christmas.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, it's Mr. Moffat's 3rd Christmas special, which means it's time for Victorian, England, and a doctor with a massive case of the post-poned sads.

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We'll our new manic pixie dream girl be enough to bring him back to life.

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Let's find out in the snowman.

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So, as I just said, we're back in Victorian England, which sort of seems to be the kind of natural place.

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And I think that's probably where all our Christmas iconography comes from.

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So even if we're in Sardic Town, it's still kind of Victorian England at Christmas and I think it works tremendously well.

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I kind of got sick of every 14th episode of Doctor Who being about Christmas.

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So I like that we've diversified in the Mothat era, and it's not necessarily about Christmas.

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It's just about the trappings of Christmas.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, look, I think that having a Christmas special is super important for Doctor Who and for its visibility, for it being an event every year.

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And so I'm happy with the fact that we have a lot of Christmases after 26 years of what, one Christmas.

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And even then, it's not really that Christmas.

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Almost the time warrior.

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But it just looks tremendous.

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It's exactly what the BBC can do really well out of just opening a cupboard.

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Yeah, essentially.

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There's great locations, though.

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Like really good locations.

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Including that empty square where the ladder comes down from the TARDIS. just a beautiful large empty Victorian square.

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Yeah, and you see parks like that in London.

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It seems really, really convincing I think.

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But the house and all of that sort of stuff.

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The pond, everything just looks tremendous, I think.

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There's a feeling from classic Doctor Who that this feels like classic Doctor Who, but actually, classic Doctor Who quite rarely visited Victorian London, but it sort of harks back to that, and I think it might be because so much of it was filmed during kind of winter location days and things like that.

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It just, it feels nostalgic and it feels warm at the same time.

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So it's just perfect for a Christmas special.

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But you have, like, in Classic 2, a lot of big old Victorian houses that they visit in some of the most iconic episodes.

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So I think that's where you get that nostalgia for it from.

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Look, I absolutely adore this Christmas special.

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I think it's probably my favourite.

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You know, Christmas Carol technically is absolutely brilliant and can't be beaten, but I get tired watching it because of the time stuff, whereas this is a much more straightforward A to B to see the Zed story.

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And I just can relax and enjoy the comedy and enjoy the sadness and enjoy every performance in it.

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I think my favourite children.

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They do bring that up.

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I actually do think they are 2 of the better child actors.

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As, you know, listeners know, I really don't like children actors in Doctor Who at all, but they're not too bad.

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No, it's the maid that's having a very bad day in the house when she sees her screaming, you know?

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There is a woman with my wife and Strax and there's snowmen and she's just hysterical and she faints.

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Like, that's the stuff in Doctor 2 that I absolutely love.

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Do you know that she had a descendant who worked in a guesthouse north of London when Donna and Will?

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And Sylvia stayed there?

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What, she just points?

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She does points and repeats the same thing over and over.

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But it's those little characters. that make it for me, you know, just having something like that, which is totally, like, I mean, it didn't have to be like that, but it just adds to it.

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Sorry, I'm totally not where we wanted to start, I know.

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No, no.

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What I like.

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You know, I love the Russell T. Davis era because it created a world for the doctor to live in.

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And there are a lot of people.

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You know, by the time we reach Journey's end, the TARDIS is sort of stuffed with people that we've got to know for the past for years.

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And for me, Doctor Who feels a bit lonely when the doctor's friendless, one of the things that I dislike about the kind of late say word era is that the doctor doesn't seem to have any, well, as male, I guess, but he doesn't...

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He doesn't seem to have any friends.

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He doesn't need to.

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He doesn't belong anywhere.

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And one of the things that makes the Pertuy era such great comfort viewing is that there's a large regular cast.

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And here, even though Moffatt hasn't tried to create a world for his show to take place in, he's managed to create enough memorable characters whom he's able to bring back.

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And I think Vastra, Jenny, and Strax, who have just been imported from what a good man goes to war, are just tremendously good.

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It's quite funny because when we're watching that for the 1st time, we actually, 10 years ago, we were actually both sort of thinking, wait a minute, who are these people?

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Where were we from?

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But then, of course, you know, they're from a good man goes.

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Well, but even then here, it's like they've been around forever.

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Yeah.

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Someone, I agree.

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It totally interesting.

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Like they just suddenly they're, they're the new team and you just accept them and they are funny and they are clever and they work so well with Matt and with Jenner, I think.

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And of course, they're going to come back in 2 more episodes in this 2nd half of the season.

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I really...

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Part of me is disappointed that they're not in more episodes overall.

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You know, I just think they just, um, I was talking in the large episode about the fact that I felt that Matt goes a bit off the boil in the 2nd half of the season, but the episodes where he does work really well, uh, with these 3 or four.

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It's like the new team because he doesn't have to carry everything and he can share the load and have different moments and show different sides to the doctor.

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And it is quite incredible to think that I just accept them and they're just so brilliant in the episode and it's like they've always been there.

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I'm going to lay my cards on the table and say I don't like them very much.

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Okay.

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I think they're fine.

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Like, they're not terrible. but the shtick wears thin very quickly.

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It hasn't worn thin in this episode.

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They're good in this episode, but it will be very much a case of diminishing returns as they come back and do the same old lines and the same old scenes.

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However, I do like the fact that the doctor has a ready-made family or group of friends in this episode because it underscores the fact that he's retired from the world and he's even keeping them at arm's length.

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If he didn't have them, it would just be the doctor moping around like, you know, episode one of the deadly assassin or something.

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Yeah, no, I do agree with you on the points that they're not characters that I am fond of later, but I think they make a strong entrance or proper entrance here.

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Isn't part of the point, though, that, you know, that, yes, the doctor has sort of retired from his inventuring in solving, you know.

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I think you were going to say retired from acting.

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No, he hasn't done that.

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We retired from all that and they're trying to fill the gap.

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Yeah, so I think that's why it works as well.

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And it's a nice counterpoint because the doctor, in the loss of Amy and Rory, has become this kind of recluse who, you know, doesn't know his place in the world or has lost his place in the world, whereas Madame Vastra and Jenny in particular kind of give you an image of a successful partnership that works in that world.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, they are explicitly connected to homes and Watson.

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And so Simeon, so Richard E. Grant's character says you do realise that Dr. Doyle is turning your adventures into crummy pulp fiction in the Strand magazine or whatever.

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And that's terrific.

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That is tremendously wonderful.

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And of course we know that Moffatt is a massive Sherlock Holmes fan.

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How do we know that?

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I have no idea.

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But isn't it great when we get that musical sting?

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When the doctor puts on the Sherlock Holmes outfit?

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A bit of Sherlock music.

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It's very...

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But it's also the moment that you know that Clara is going to be a great companion is when she deduces from the fact that the doctor brings the umbrella that he's accepted her and wanted her to come along with him.

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And that's very different from the way that Amy gets chosen.

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Like Amy is the 1st person, that the doctor sees when he turns up as Matt Smith, and she's funny and self-possessed and not hugely impressed by him and all of those wonderful things, whereas this is a companion who is going to be like the doctor for good or ill.

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And that's kind of why she's been chosen.

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She's as smart as him.

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She thinks the way that he does.

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And she's almost set up as a Lullaward Romana, just not being the time lady thing.

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Yeah, well, in fact, you know, Romana has different personas because she's a time lady.

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And here, Jenna's character has lots of different personas, but they're all playing by Jen to have lots of dinner.

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Well, yeah.

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No, I kind of meant.

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In name of the doctor. but yes.

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Now here she has 2 separate personas.

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Yeah, she does, doesn't she?

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Barmaid and governess.

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Yeah.

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And she kind of had 2 personas back in the 1st episode.

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Dalek and Osmond.

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Entertainment Officer.

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This is my favourite version of Clara.

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Yeah, I can see why.

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I am not as down on Clara as some of us are, and I do think that she has sort of considerable charisma, which is able in some senses to kind of paper over the weird way that her character is introduced.

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But I do like this one a lot.

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And it is because she's just able to stand up to the doctor more or less straight away.

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But it's a weird thing because barmaid Clara, I think, is the most generically approachable character.

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We all know that kind of, you know, perky barmaid from Victorian London, from Oliver Twist, kind of, you know, leading a sin song.

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We like that, whereas when she becomes governess Clara, she actually takes on a lot more of the mannerisms that I don't like from later Clara.

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Right, yeah.

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She has the posh accent and the smugness.

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She has like a great hair butt.

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I'm sorry, it all comes back to her hair.

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Her hair looks absolutely brilliant.

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Sorry, Simon is grimacing.

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No, no, I'm not.

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I was grimacing at the Peter's suggestion that he doesn't like the smugness because I think it's good smugness.

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There's bad smugness and good smugness.

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Simon, that's coming from someone who's very smug.

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Obviously.

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Yeah, so it has to be taken without under consideration.

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But nevertheless, I actually quite like the governess, Clara, very much.

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Yeah, it's not terrible.

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But the barmaid Clara, like at the beginning, you know, when the doctor walks passed in his hat, isn't it like a...

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He pulls off hats like no other doctor.

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Yeah.

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And you notice he's not wearing his bow tie.

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This is another situation in asylum of the Daleks.

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Remember how straightening his bow tie was the thing that he did when he solved.

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Was he superpower?

155
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Yeah, with superpower.

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He does it once he solved Amy and Rory's marriage.

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Right.

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And that he looks into the camera and straightens his bow eye.

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He, the bow tie, is associated with his heroic persona.

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He's not wearing it at the beginning.

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And then he says, does he have a line, Simon?

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It's something like I can't remember when I put that back on.

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But I, it's interesting because when the whole sequence where he, he's looking at himself in the mirror and he can't remember when he put the bai tie on, I hadn't even noticed that he didn't was wearing it before.

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So it was quite a clever, a clever thing to show.

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And he does that whole Bill Nye routine.

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You know...

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Exactly.

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Like, I mean, Clara says like it's cooler.

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Yes.

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And he misses...

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And it is the whole Bill Knight thing.

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It made me sort of like, oh, quite.

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I got quite emotional when that sort of happened, you know?

174
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It has happened before, actually.

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You remember in a Christmas carol where Kazran Sardik starts wearing a bow tie, when he's a friend of the doctor.

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And then when he finally rejects him, he stops wearing it.

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So the boat's high, I think, it's so funny, isn't it?

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Because it's a weird choice.

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It's clearly just been brought in because whether this story is true or not, and I have my doubts because Matt liked Tomb of the Cyberman and wanted to have the Bow Tie.

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And so that was his kind of take on it.

181
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But Moffin actually gives it a symbolic meaning as things go on.

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Yeah, Nathan, it's hilarious because, like, if you hadn't chosen that, we wouldn't have all these moments.

183
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Yeah, yeah, he takes it.

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He runs with it and he makes it something that brings out so emotions in us all.

185
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Yeah, well, that's when Matt leaves.

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He drops the bow tie to the floor of the tartars.

187
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And then the 11th hour when he moves through the images of the other doctor, he's adjusting the bow tie, he's become the doctor.

188
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

189
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It's really fun isn't it?

190
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And it is just one of those things that Moffatt does.

191
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It's not planned.

192
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It's discovered, I think, as the show goes on.

193
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Yeah, because originally it's just this quirky thing.

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You know, people don't wear bow ties in the modern era outside of, you know, tuxedos and even when they do wear a tuxedo, they're often not wearing it.

195
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And it's certainly not a one that you tie yourself and turning that into a motif does actually become a sort of a logical progression, given the fact that it's unusual.

196
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And it's always a balance of things.

197
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I don't think you could have put Capaldi in a bow tie because Capaldi, as an essence, is too doctor-ish.

198
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And so if you add a bow tie to it, it all looks a bit over egged, whereas Matt is not a likely doctor before you see him.

199
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And so putting the bow tie on stamps him as the doctor.

200
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Yeah.

201
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Yeah.

202
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And also because he's so young, it's like, you know, bow ties being associated as a person.

203
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Yeah, and so it's an anachronism and that's why it works.

204
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Yeah, he's sort of dressed in a sort of 1950s way up until this point, isn't he?

205
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Like a teacher in a school in the 1950s.

206
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And this is the point where we won't see his old costume again, I think, or that he won't wear it regularly.

207
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Yeah.

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I will miss it.

209
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Yeah, me too.

210
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I think the shorter coach is so many of the doctors wear these long coats and it became a thing of, you know...

211
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It was the 80s.

212
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I mean, just basically every doctor in the 80s until McCoy came along.

213
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Well, from Tom, really.

214
00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:53.759
So it's the mid 70s.

215
00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:59.279
So, um, and it's only so it's only really pert wheat and McCoy that wear the short jackets in the old series.

216
00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:01.320
And so that for me was so refreshing.

217
00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:05.340
It makes him move so much faster and the silhouette is very distinctive.

218
00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:10.799
And I think it was disappointing for me when they went to the longcoat outside of just a Victorian episode like this.

219
00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:16.259
And that's the thing that I love too, which harks back to the heart and the era, where they're actually changing clothes.

220
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:24.720
I love this, the fact that he's wearing a full-on Victorian with the hat and everything rather than just swanning around in his normal outfit.

221
00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:26.220
So it'll match the action figure.

222
00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:27.539
That suits him so much.

223
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:28.320
Sorry to return.

224
00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:28.799
It does.

225
00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.519
No, no, it does.

226
00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:31.320
It actually works really, really well.

227
00:16:31.379 --> 00:16:33.240
It's a doctorate outfit in the Victorian era.

228
00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:33.840
Yeah.

229
00:16:33.899 --> 00:16:35.519
And he's wearing Amy's glasses too.

230
00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:36.480
Yeah, yeah.

231
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:37.379
I didn't pick that.

232
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:38.039
Yeah.

233
00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:42.899
In fact, there's even a kind of moment where he's aware that they're Amy's glasses.

234
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:48.240
Isn't isn't that when he's in the Tartars that we're not seeing when he's talking to Vestra?

235
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:52.860
Yeah, yeah, there's some reference to Amy because there's there's pond, isn't there?

236
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:55.320
Yes, I will get to that, the word pond.

237
00:16:55.379 --> 00:17:07.920
And I think he refers or he looks at the glasses at that point because as we said over the last few episodes, in power of three, the optician calls them up to say that Amy's reading glasses are ready.

238
00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:19.200
She's wearing them in the next episode and they get passed on to Matt Smith, who actually discovers that reading is much better with them. puts them on and goes, oh, wow, this is a lot better.

239
00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:21.599
And now he's just sort of wearing them regularly.

240
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:23.400
It's the thing that is left behind.

241
00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:28.559
And although Amy and Rory, Amy and Rory don't, do they get mentioned by name?

242
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:29.759
I don't know that they do.

243
00:17:29.819 --> 00:17:31.380
I think they know, only pond.

244
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:32.460
Only pond.

245
00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:36.180
But we know that that's why the doctors retreated.

246
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:42.660
And there's something beautifully fairy tale about him living on a cloud.

247
00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:44.279
Gorgeous.

248
00:17:44.339 --> 00:17:50.039
It looks so good that the spiral staircase, like Jack going up the beanstalk.

249
00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:51.599
Yeah, it's really great.

250
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:56.220
But isn't doesn't her theme come in at that point too, that her beautiful Clara's theme.

251
00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:57.720
Yeah, as she's walking up the 1st time.

252
00:17:57.779 --> 00:17:58.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

253
00:17:58.500 --> 00:18:00.059
Oh, it's so nice.

254
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:00.599
He's done it.

255
00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:01.740
And even though it's ridiculous.

256
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:06.720
It works, especially in the context of the Christmas episode. nature.

257
00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:10.980
It's like, you know, all of the close-ups of the snowflakes and so on. you know it's just nice.

258
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:24.480
Another example of actually Marigold being good, and I don't know whether it, again, this is the director kind of pushing him, but I think his music in this episode is very, very strong, and that's coming from someone who's not a huge fan of him.

259
00:18:24.539 --> 00:18:32.099
I think getting properly to play with this new theme, you know, invigorates him a bit, the way he always rises to a theme, doesn't he?

260
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.880
And Clara's theme is very, very good and very distinctive.

261
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:55.500
Talking of themes, just going back a bit to the beginning, we haven't mentioned the opening credits yet, which for me, no, well, opening credits are important.

262
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:56.339
They are.

263
00:18:56.339 --> 00:18:57.480
Very important.

264
00:18:57.539 --> 00:18:59.220
No, no, I was laughing because I knew we'd get here.

265
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:00.000
Ah, right.

266
00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:09.059
But before we get to them, we've got things in that pre-credit sequence, we've got the doctor Doctor Who joke that Stephen seems to be bringing in quite a lot.

267
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:13.859
We've got the great intelligence, right, on the carriage or whatever.

268
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.859
And then, of course, it cuts into the new intro.

269
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:21.000
Yes, which is the best opening credits of the modern era.

270
00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:22.319
Okay.

271
00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:23.579
Counterpoint.

272
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.579
It's the worst opening credits of the modern era.

273
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:27.359
Fascinating.

274
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:29.160
Can I meet you halfway?

275
00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:32.700
I do quite like it, but it's a bit like the mill threw up in a kaleidoscope.

276
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.160
Yeah, it's kind of, it's not saying anything.

277
00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:36.480
It doesn't seem to go in any direction.

278
00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:37.740
Oh I disagree.

279
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:39.660
Like, it's quite 80s-ish.

280
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:40.140
Yeah.

281
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:40.799
Yes.

282
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:54.480
Actually, no, it's because the reason why, okay, the reason why I love it so much. is that I think it's the one that's most authentic to the original show whilst also being a modern update.

283
00:19:54.539 --> 00:20:04.559
The other thing that I love about it is, I think it's the only opening credits where what's happening on the screen. actually marries with the music or vice versa.

284
00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:04.920
Okay.

285
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:19.559
The thing that drove me nuts when those credits 1st rolled in 2005 and one of my biggest disappointments was the fact that, 0 my god, it's like someone did the music and someone put the credits together and they didn't put it together until they put the episodes together.

286
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:22.200
It's the moment, isn't it, where the camera turns around the TARDIS?

287
00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:23.220
The TARDIS moves.

288
00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:25.920
It doesn't match anything in the world.

289
00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:27.660
That's the thing that's the most jarring about that.

290
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:33.240
Even the updated, when you come to the Matt Smith credits, even that's kind of a bit lazy, the way you got the clouds.

291
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:42.599
I mean, I like them, but it's, you know, the TARDIS going through the clouds, it doesn't match the music in a way that it should, where the beats, where the strong moments of the music.

292
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:48.480
And again, when we get to the Capaldi credits, again, it's like completely disconnected with what's going on in the music.

293
00:20:48.539 --> 00:21:00.660
But these titles take you on a journey, like the Sylvester McCoy ones did, for instance, which I like because it's visual interest, whereas the Capaldi credits may have a stronger motif, but they're just less interesting. that's true.

294
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:04.200
I just think it's just, let's not talk about Chris Chipnell coughing up in England.

295
00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:06.960
Oh, no, I think that's like a oily puddle.

296
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.779
I think...

297
00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:10.980
Isn't he eating blotters?

298
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:15.480
I think my thing is that it's just a whole bunch of crazy crap happening.

299
00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:16.380
Yeah, yeah.

300
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:18.359
And it doesn't seem like to go here.

301
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.740
I love the fact that his face appears here.

302
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.180
That is what got to me.

303
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:25.680
Yes, and subtly.

304
00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:26.640
That's yeah.

305
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:32.039
Again, I don't want to dwell on that too much because that's not the only reason I love them, but I think that just added beautifully to it.

306
00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:38.880
One of the most disappointing things for me is moving forward that you only get them in this 2nd half series and that's it.

307
00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:48.720
I kind of thought moving forward into Capaldi, it'd be like a season 11 to 12 transition where you'd still have them with an updated face. eyebrows.

308
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.000
But yes, they're just...

309
00:21:51.059 --> 00:21:52.200
Well, like season 11 onto 12.

310
00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:52.559
Yeah.

311
00:21:52.619 --> 00:22:00.180
Well, can I just conjecture here, and it is educated conjecture, that this was meant to be a soft reboot for the show with new TARDIS, new credits, new music.

312
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.680
And I don't think that Moffat was expecting that Matt was going to leave.

313
00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:07.440
Yeah. stay for one more year.

314
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:07.920
That's right.

315
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:09.059
Yeah, at least one more movie, yeah.

316
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:19.980
Can I say, though, that this TARDIS, this new TARDIS, which we see for the 1st time, is perhaps the best hardest set in the show's rhyme.

317
00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:20.880
Yeah, that's interesting.

318
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:23.220
I'm surprised because I entirely agree with you on that.

319
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:33.059
And the reason I love it is because it's getting away from the grunge and the organicness and moving towards something that actually resembles for me the original show.

320
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.539
It effortlessly evokes the original wild being different.

321
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:43.859
And it does it by sort of being mostly white and lit well, but that beautiful blue, which I prefer to the capald yellow.

322
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:44.880
Yeah, yeah.

323
00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:48.420
I mean, I quite like what they do to it in the Capaldi era.

324
00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:53.279
And I'm glad that they don't change it completely, but it's also super interesting.

325
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:56.039
There's just lots of practical lights in it.

326
00:22:56.099 --> 00:22:58.619
There's things that actually move around.

327
00:22:58.680 --> 00:22:59.759
It's interesting.

328
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:00.900
It's got different levels.

329
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:02.099
There's different places to shoot.

330
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.019
And the switches seem timeless.

331
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:05.279
You know what I mean?

332
00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:11.279
not those 80s kind of microprocessor switches and they're not kind of bits of kitchen sink and stuff like that, but they just work.

333
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:18.779
I think that the bits of kitchen sink, the taps and the things on Matt's 1st console are a bit too bad.

334
00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:19.619
A bit too much, yes.

335
00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:20.160
100%.

336
00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:25.619
Well, my 2 cents is that I absolutely adore the Capaldi version, right?

337
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.819
Because I love all the stuff around the outside, all the bookshelves.

338
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:30.720
I think that's brilliant.

339
00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:41.339
I do take your point, the blue lighting is probably better than the yellow lighting, but it's just that the moment you go into that TARDIS because they've hidden it. right?

340
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:42.599
He's been sitting down reading a book.

341
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:48.779
And then the whole thing is spinning and the lights and then it's just a hero shot of the episode.

342
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:51.779
It's another high point in this which is why I just adore it.

343
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:57.779
And he actually turns out the lights in the TARDIS when he leaves just so he can turn them on for dramatic effect when Clara comes in.

344
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:00.119
It's pick word, isn't it?

345
00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:01.259
Yeah, it's so good.

346
00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:02.940
That's genius.

347
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:04.440
Yeah, he really is very good.

348
00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:19.859
And I remember an interview with Moffatt, where Moffatt said, where Moffatt kind of contradicts himself, where the original kind of whimsical Tardar said that Matt started with was to reflect the sort of fairy tale.

349
00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:25.140
It was a sort of Charlie and the chocolate factory thing, you know, aesthetic.

350
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:32.819
And he's saying, no, no, no, it's a time and space machine, and it should look like that, which was kind of the opposite of what he said before.

351
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.579
And I think it just feeds into my theory of Moffatt constantly reacting against the thing that he did previously.

352
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:39.779
I think it's stunning.

353
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:43.140
But I love it that it's from the roof rather than built up from underneath.

354
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.099
Yeah, that's right.

355
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:55.200
I mean, that was the strong point of the 1st Matt Smith TARDIS, was the glass floor and that area underneath where he got to wear goggles and kind of fiddle with things.

356
00:24:55.259 --> 00:25:03.000
There's a thing coming down from the top. does hark back to the very, very original, like an earthly child where you have this great big thing above the console.

357
00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:07.859
I don't know how quickly that gets lost or destroyed or the roof thing.

358
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:08.819
Yeah, the roofing.

359
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.059
Because what it's doing is it's saying, this is not a set.

360
00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:15.720
Because you used to sets having walls with no root because that's where the lighting grid is.

361
00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:21.299
And having a sense of a roof or something coming down from above does make it feel like it's more of a complete space.

362
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:27.180
That object that with the sort of concentric circles and stuff is referenced in Matt Smith's 1st TARDIS.

363
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:27.779
Yes.

364
00:25:27.779 --> 00:25:30.059
So that element of the bracardi.

365
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:31.440
I think it just executed so much better.

366
00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:32.039
Yes, so good.

367
00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:33.240
It is really great.

368
00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:40.980
And of course, it's there to tell the story of how the doctor's feeling as well, which is why it's moodily lit in blue and all of that kind of thing.

369
00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:48.539
It takes its cue from the rest of the episode, which is lit very practically in shots and given a deep blue grade.

370
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.420
It's just gorgeous and so the console looks like the rest of the episode.

371
00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:52.259
Yeah, yeah.

372
00:25:52.319 --> 00:26:03.359
And so the doctor's miserable and he's kind of retired from not just investigating things, but also saving people.

373
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:04.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

374
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:13.019
He's just sort of uninterested in the world and he explains it by saying that the universe keeps doing this to me.

375
00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:17.759
I keep saving the universe and the universe doesn't care, I think he said.

376
00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:19.140
Yes, the universe doesn't care.

377
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:19.680
Yeah.

378
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:20.759
That's what I've learned.

379
00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:21.000
Yeah.

380
00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:22.859
What do you want doctor applause?

381
00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:26.579
You know, what I think is the best thing about that.

382
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:50.640
There is some, there's something that this story has to say about men and women, and it's Moffatt, so that's inevitable, but the 2 people who are doing the doctor's job, who have taken over when he is too busy having feels up in his cloud, those are women being a snowflake.

383
00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:56.279
It's the 2 women who are undertaking his job.

384
00:26:56.339 --> 00:27:05.099
And then when Clara comes in and Vastra interviews her in a scene that I think is just tremendously clever.

385
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:08.880
When Vastra says he doesn't care.

386
00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:12.000
He's not kind, you know, whatever.

387
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:23.759
And she just says back to her words, like says the word words, because Vastra has said that words are full of lies, and that's why you're only allowed to say one at a time.

388
00:27:23.819 --> 00:27:27.420
And then when she says he doesn't want to be hurt anymore.

389
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.759
Her response is, man.

390
00:27:29.819 --> 00:27:35.519
You know, it's the doctor having a big suk and having lots of man kind.

391
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:36.960
You might as spoil a water sign.

392
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:40.500
I might as well have worn a sign saying manic pixie dream.

393
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:52.740
The only objection I have to that sequence and I think it's a great sequence is it's that introduction or the continuation of this idea of, you know, trying to paint the doctor as, oh, no, he's not kind. you know, he's an alien.

394
00:27:52.799 --> 00:28:03.299
He's not actually a nice person, you know, which I am always uncomfortable with because I think, you know, for 98% of the program, we see this very kind, compassionate person.

395
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:08.279
Yes, alien and yes, sometimes his values are a little bit different, you know, and all that sort of stuff.

396
00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:11.279
But I don't like that when they say that he's unkind.

397
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:12.480
I agree with you.

398
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:28.200
And I don't think it works most of the time, but I do think it works for Matt Smith's doctor who is so charming and, you know, breaks out into the smile so readily that it offers you a nice counterpoint, whereas, you know, you can't do it, as we'll see, with the Capaldi doctor, because he's more brittle. and so you don't want to go there.

399
00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:31.259
You know, he's not kind or he's not acting kind sometimes either.

400
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:41.220
I do like that sequence with Vestra.

401
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.579
I love the fact that she is not drinking red wine.

402
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:46.500
Yes, What is the other drink?

403
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.480
Whatever, that happens to be.

404
00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:49.920
It's blood, isn't it?

405
00:28:49.980 --> 00:28:56.279
Doesn't she eat someone at the beginning of, is it the Crimson Horror or deep breath?

406
00:28:56.339 --> 00:28:58.079
No, because she's getting a good man goes to war.

407
00:28:58.140 --> 00:28:59.039
That's it.

408
00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:01.740
Because she, because she says she comes back there, she found the murderer.

409
00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:03.180
How did you find him?

410
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:03.599
Yes.

411
00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:05.220
Grizzly or something?

412
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:06.660
Grizzly or something?

413
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:16.619
Speaking of things tasting bad, the doctor kissing stracks on the forehead and then licking his lips in disgust is one of the best Matt Smith moment.

414
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:17.880
Yes, yes, yes.

415
00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:24.299
But one of the best moments also is the memory worm at the beginning distracts the carriage.

416
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:25.619
I think it's hilarious.

417
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.740
I mean, it's so obvious, but so irritable.

418
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:29.339
It is.

419
00:29:29.339 --> 00:29:30.059
You're right.

420
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:34.200
But it again is Clara doesn't run away.

421
00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:43.140
They're trying to get the memory worm in order to wipe her memory of ever having matched it off. and watch too men be incompetent.

422
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:44.700
Yes, that's exactly the thing.

423
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:49.380
And there is a thing here, and it's, you talk about the Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

424
00:29:49.440 --> 00:30:00.839
So the idea of the manic pixie dream girl is that there's a male character who has the sads and then a zany girl comes along whose job is to lift him out of it.

425
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.859
And she is absolutely a classic manic pixie dream girl.

426
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:17.160
It's a term that was coined by Nathan Raven who used to write for the AV club and he's now a critic on his own site, Nathan Raven's happy place, and he's very cool, but he came up with that formulation.

427
00:30:17.220 --> 00:30:20.039
And Elizabeth Town, wasn't it?

428
00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:21.299
I can't remember actually.

429
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.099
I think it was Kirsten Dunst.

430
00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:24.119
Right, right.

431
00:30:24.180 --> 00:30:44.039
And I think that's actually slightly a problem with the show is that the emotional labour has to be done by a woman, that a man can sit up there in his cloud not caring about anyone not wanting to do anything, being absorbed in his own thoughts, and then a woman comes along and kind of fixes him.

432
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:47.220
And it is something that Moffatt always does.

433
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:50.160
The women are more competent than the man.

434
00:30:50.519 --> 00:31:04.859
And given that male incompetence is a time worn strategy for getting out of your share of the housework and all of that kind of thing or doing emotional labour or doing child rearing or all of that.

435
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:05.819
I'm no good at that.

436
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:07.440
I know about that, Nathan.

437
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:09.420
We'll have to ask your suspiciously intimate other.

438
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:11.819
It's that.

439
00:31:11.819 --> 00:31:14.519
You know, Latimer does it.

440
00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:20.160
Pretty Colonel Latimer or General Latimer or something, the children are not my area.

441
00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:23.339
I need you a woman to deal with them.

442
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:36.960
And Moffat always does that. and it looks like it's being complimentary to women because women are more competent, more able, more bossy, more intelligent, less stupid than man, but it is, I just can never escape the idea.

443
00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:39.119
It means that the women are doing more work. right.

444
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:47.880
I mean, I think it's partly a function of the show in the companion will always be there to service the character of the doctor in some ways.

445
00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:50.880
And the doctor's usually male, and the companion is usually female.

446
00:31:50.940 --> 00:31:56.759
And so Motho reacts against that by making the companion quirky and fun and have equal status.

447
00:31:56.819 --> 00:31:58.980
But you're just locked into the structure of the program.

448
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:00.299
I think that's probably right.

449
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:04.859
But the worm is funny.

450
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:09.059
I'm sorry, I think I've been run over by a cab and then...

451
00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:13.140
I mean, that is comedy gold, right?

452
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:16.200
And Clara's just standing there looking, going, 0 my goodness.

453
00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:29.519
But again, it's one of these things where Stephen Morford introduces that thing early on and you think it's a throwaway thing and later on it comes back to bite in the pot, you don't see it coming that you know that Richard E. Grant is going to grab the worm.

454
00:32:29.579 --> 00:32:33.480
And it's just a throwaway line that, you know, let it bite you and you'll lose decades.

455
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:34.200
Decades, yeah.

456
00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:35.700
It's so clever, isn't it?

457
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:37.619
And that's how Moffatt does exposition.

458
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:49.380
He actually has a really memorable comedy bit that we don't know at the time has the additional job of introducing the memory worm as a way of resolving.

459
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:57.660
And that's what makes it so clever and so engaging because there's nothing like getting the payoff of that later because without that, it's just a bit of silliness.

460
00:32:57.720 --> 00:32:58.140
Yeah.

461
00:32:58.200 --> 00:32:59.279
But silliness is great.

462
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:00.660
I see this is fine.

463
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:02.099
It's the silliness with the extra thing.

464
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:03.359
It balances it out.

465
00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:05.579
Yeah, I think memory worm for new companion.

466
00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:09.240
Memory worm seeded through the doctor's past.

467
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:14.039
Tom would have loved that.

468
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.819
Tom would have loved that. memory worm and a cabbage on his shoulder.

469
00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:20.940
It's such a great crummy puppet as well.

470
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:22.799
It's just awesome.

471
00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:23.640
It's great.

472
00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:24.539
That's great.

473
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:25.200
It was really good.

474
00:33:25.259 --> 00:33:29.039
So we haven't talked about the great intelligence very much.

475
00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:40.200
And here, the great intelligence, who was a mysterious force back in the 1960s, is now given an absolute solid specific origin story.

476
00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:41.579
Yes, how we feel.

477
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:43.559
I think it's really nicely done.

478
00:33:43.619 --> 00:33:48.000
It's, I love, often origin stories are a bit rubbish.

479
00:33:48.059 --> 00:34:03.480
But I actually thought that it was so nicely done that it's basically grown out of this lonely boy's emotions and it feeds into the show because, you know, you know, part of the demographic of Doctor Who view is at least, you know, when we were children, is we are that boy.

480
00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:04.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

481
00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:14.099
Yeah, I love the fact that he explains it so delicately, like, you know, low telepathic field and then isn't there like a lunchbox with the London underground?

482
00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:19.860
Like it's feeding into all of that, but pointing out how ridiculous it actually is, but loving it at the same time.

483
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:27.659
Yeah, so the doctor actually gives the great intelligence the idea of putting yeti in the underground in this episode.

484
00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:35.699
Doesn't Jenny or somebody say... or Vastral, Jenny say something about how could the London Underground be a strategic weakness?

485
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.059
Yeah.

486
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:48.119
I mean, I'm not quite on board with the intelligence being reduced in dialogue to the level of Meglos or the Borad, you know, incompetent, invading the underground, even though we know it was incompetent.

487
00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:50.159
But I really do like it.

488
00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:51.840
I think it is a good origin story.

489
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:57.659
And I think that the snowmen are a really good modern iteration of the yeti. always looked a bit stupid.

490
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.000
Yeah, the snowmen don't.

491
00:35:00.059 --> 00:35:04.500
They kind of they have the silhouette and the fierceness, but they don't look silly.

492
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.420
They have shark's teeth, don't they?

493
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:07.320
that work really well.

494
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:12.179
And the snowflake, that's a little...

495
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:12.719
I love it.

496
00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:21.480
But yeah, no, I didn't think about that, the fact that they're sort of like the yeti because I love the fact that at the end you think the intelligence is defeated, right?

497
00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:27.239
Because he's dead, but then it's grown bigger than Simeon and winter is coming.

498
00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:30.599
I just love the fact that he's referencing Game of Thrones with Game of Thrones.

499
00:35:30.659 --> 00:35:31.500
Game train started by now.

500
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:34.079
Oh yeah, it's a big phenomenon by now. really growing.

501
00:35:34.139 --> 00:35:36.659
So I really love that fact.

502
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:48.239
But, I mean, obviously, next episode we're going to get the great intelligence again, and I kind of wish that we'd get it a bit, I would have liked it one more time during that 2nd half of the season.

503
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:53.820
Well, that's just me perhaps thinking that maybe we need an episode with the edge somewhere down the track.

504
00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:57.539
Well, I sort of picked it straight away only because of the fact that it's, you know, the snowman.

505
00:35:57.539 --> 00:35:58.860
Like, it's abominable.

506
00:35:58.920 --> 00:35:59.280
Yeah.

507
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.639
So I thought it was a deliberate play on that.

508
00:36:02.699 --> 00:36:03.599
And it clearly was.

509
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:10.559
Yeah, but I like the little touches, like the sphere that he's putting the snow into that's kind of holding the greatest television is a sphere.

510
00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:14.579
Who knew that the Greece Intelligence lived in one of those things that scrambles the lotto.

511
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.739
It's great, isn't it?

512
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:18.539
I forgot that it comes back in the bells of St.

513
00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:18.780
John.

514
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:24.360
But isn't it refreshing that the doctor at the end still can't quite remember the great injunction?

515
00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:26.280
Yeah, it's vaguely familiar.

516
00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:27.119
Where have I heard that?

517
00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:29.219
Because, of course, it's like so long ago in my history.

518
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:32.880
Yeah, Clara, to slap him and say the episode's called The Snowmen.

519
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.159
So how?

520
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:36.960
Oh, can I just say something, by the way?

521
00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:40.500
Saul Metzstein, who does such a great job on this episode.

522
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:44.820
I mean, I think the last thing he did was a town called Mercy and we raved about his direction in that.

523
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:53.639
He is actually the 2nd assistant director on a 2017 film called The Snowman. 6% on rotten tomatoes.

524
00:36:53.699 --> 00:36:56.400
Hurry and watch it. 6% as high as them, my goodness.

525
00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:57.840
What else does he direct after these two?

526
00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:00.300
He does the name of the doctor and one other.

527
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:02.820
Yeah, but he doesn't come back after series 7.

528
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:05.760
He's only, he only directs episodes in series seven.

529
00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:08.219
He also directed dinosaurs on a spaceship, for instance.

530
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:09.840
Oh, no, I thought that was good too.

531
00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:10.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

532
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:12.599
Maybe he does the Crimson horror.

533
00:37:12.659 --> 00:37:13.440
I think that's other thing.

534
00:37:13.500 --> 00:37:15.059
Oh, yeah, well that's great.

535
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.579
So he only does episodes with Jenny.

536
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.559
I love Jenny.

537
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:49.199
It means that we introduce Ian McCallen. as the voice of the Great Intelligence, and we give the Great Intelligence a human aspect, which is Richard E. Grant, who we always felt should have been in Doctor Who at some point, but...

538
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:52.320
Well, he was he was the animated doctor.

539
00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:54.480
Like, he was kind of, he was the animated ninth doctor.

540
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:57.119
And he is in curse of fatal death for about 2 minutes.

541
00:37:57.179 --> 00:37:58.139
Yeah, yeah.

542
00:37:58.139 --> 00:37:59.039
But it's so funny.

543
00:37:59.099 --> 00:38:00.599
He's sort of almost the doctor, but not.

544
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.239
But if you're going to make him the doctor, you make him a villain.

545
00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:03.780
Absolutely.

546
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.739
Especially because as Richard D. Grant has aged, he has become more sinister looking.

547
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:10.079
Yes, he's no longer lick the mirror handsome.

548
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:12.719
Like the mirror handsome.

549
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:17.519
He does that. that underbite thing that he has.

550
00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:20.699
Like, he's got this strange way of delivering his lines as the greatest.

551
00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:37.980
He's a bit too clenched, perhaps, but what I think of is the way that the Mara is explained in snake dance, which gives it a sort of weird space explanation without ruining it without destroying its kind of underlying mythic nature.

552
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:46.440
I think that's perhaps one of the best examples of bringing back a monster and doing something different with it.

553
00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:49.260
And I think this does a very good job of that as well.

554
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:51.719
Snake Dance is also a Mara origin story.

555
00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:53.280
Yeah, that's what I mean.

556
00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:55.079
And it also has a Punch and Judy show in it.

557
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:56.880
It does.

558
00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:57.659
There you go.

559
00:38:57.719 --> 00:39:00.539
Stephen Mauve had just watched Snake Dance somewhere, I know.

560
00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:13.260
And even the idea of just sentient snow is very, very simple and doesn't need a lot of explanation or work. silly.

561
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:15.780
It's not sentient.

562
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:17.280
It's sentient.

563
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.199
It's empathic or something.

564
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.119
I can't remember something.

565
00:39:21.179 --> 00:39:21.480
Yeah.

566
00:39:21.539 --> 00:39:24.659
But it imitates, it mirrors what it sees around it.

567
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:27.599
And that's incredibly simple.

568
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:35.639
And yet it underlies a whole heap of phenomena, including the scary ice governess and I love it, but I love all of that.

569
00:39:35.699 --> 00:39:39.300
Like, you know, the ponder still frozen over and she fell in there and she died.

570
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:52.380
And like the 1st time through when I watched it, I didn't pick up a lot of that, like it was only in subsequent viewings that I realised how much that was connected with little lines and I just love how he's outside with his no making device, you know, the ring.

571
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:54.360
That's great.

572
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:56.400
It's like a Dyson snowmaker.

573
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:07.380
But also, like the fact that Clara's expecting the doctor to come upstairs and then it's the ice governess and they've got to defeat her and break her apart and she keeps on humming.

574
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:11.880
And I love the fact that, you know, Digby or whatever saw a dead cow, you know?

575
00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:13.380
I think that's a great line.

576
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:14.219
Great, aren't they?

577
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:21.840
But it's so sort of a bit gruesome the way, you know, the governors, the previous governors had fallen into the lake and it froze, she drowned and it froze over.

578
00:40:21.900 --> 00:40:23.880
I mean, it's quite actually a bit gruesome.

579
00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:24.960
But that's kind of Victorian.

580
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:26.880
You know, that sort of weird macabre.

581
00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:28.860
Yes, yes, exactly.

582
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:30.179
Absolutely. absolutely absolutely.

583
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.900
And the girl is having bad dreams and yeah, yeah.

584
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:34.679
Yeah.

585
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:45.119
Well, again, we have that idea that we see the snowman appear because Clara is remembering them from before and we have...

586
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:46.019
Is that frame?

587
00:40:46.079 --> 00:41:04.559
Yeah, so Franny is dreaming about the governess being angry and Simeon is aware that we have ice that has learnt to imitate her body and we have the psychic stuff coming from Franny's dreams, which is going to animate the governess.

588
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.860
And so it all works really tightly.

589
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:13.139
It all is explained without giving us laborious explanation.

590
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:15.059
Overexplaining.

591
00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:17.039
It works thematically as well.

592
00:41:17.099 --> 00:41:25.079
It's one of the reasons that, you know, you've got to love Stephen's writing because even in a nice Christmas romp like this, there's things happening.

593
00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:38.219
So the great intelligence and Simeon are both kind of analogues for the doctor in the story because the great intelligence goes back and basically corrupts a child to become its vessel and do what it wants.

594
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:42.119
And the doctor's been doing that all season and basically all doctor.

595
00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:46.260
So, you know, he thought nothing about playing around in Amy Pond's childhood as Amelia.

596
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.599
In the Rings of Akatan, he'll do that to Clara.

597
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:51.659
He'll go back and sort of, you know, have a play around with her past.

598
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.900
He did it with Kasran Sardik now that I'm thinking about it.

599
00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:56.820
And then you get Simeon as well.

600
00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:06.840
And Simeon is a lonely boy, and the doctor, he'll, Stephen will explicitly return to that and listen and show the doctor as a lonely boy, who grew up to be a bad person.

601
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:14.699
And it's been shown many times in the new series, that the doctor needs people around him to temper him and make him a good person.

602
00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:17.460
And so he's just playing them both off against the doctor.

603
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:20.579
And so this stuff happening under the surface in a jolly Christmas romp.

604
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:29.039
It's really interesting you talking about Simeon being a young boy and then we see him like being the older man and dying being killed off.

605
00:42:29.099 --> 00:42:31.860
I don't actually feel sorry for him at all.

606
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.960
Like, I mean, I guess we're supposed to.

607
00:42:34.019 --> 00:42:37.619
It's actually the 1st episode of Clara's run with Miss Kisman.

608
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:43.980
That the one that gets to me because she's taken over by the great intelligence and at the end, she's a little girl with her voice.

609
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:46.380
That's the one that affects me every time I watch it.

610
00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:48.000
It is a bit similar, isn't it?

611
00:42:48.059 --> 00:42:55.739
Like he's kind of losing some decades of his memory by being bitten by the worm and ends up being taken over by the great intelligence.

612
00:42:55.800 --> 00:43:00.539
I actually think the title has more than one meaning.

613
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:13.079
And the snowmen are the doctor and Simeon, because we have this idea where the weather reflects the emotions that the characters are experiencing.

614
00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:23.579
And so it's the family weeping over the death of Clara that turns into rain, that washes away the snow.

615
00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:30.059
At the beginning of the episode, the doctor is trying not to feel anything.

616
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:39.179
He's not feeling curiosity or kindness, he's walled himself up from human contact because he doesn't want to be hurt again.

617
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:42.300
So he's frozen as well.

618
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:56.280
And then you get the little boy who is scared of the other children, who doesn't want to have anything to do with them, who creates this imaginary friend that just reflects that loneliness back to him.

619
00:43:56.340 --> 00:43:59.340
And he physically becomes frozen. doesn't he?

620
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:01.980
When the great intelligence takes over his body.

621
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:03.119
He's frozen.

622
00:44:03.179 --> 00:44:07.980
We have a scene where the doctor is frozen as well by the great intelligence.

623
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:17.159
And so in a way, the snowmen are Simeon and the doctor, as much as they are, the sort of hilarious comedy snowmen that appear.

624
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:19.559
And all of this at 650 on Christmas Day.

625
00:44:19.619 --> 00:44:20.519
Yeah, yeah.

626
00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:21.300
Yeah.

627
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:44.760
So, is the fact that the Great Intelligence come back, and that there's a reference to the, specifically the web of fear, rather than the probable snowman.

628
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:54.059
What is known, and this is a question, about the fact that the recovery of the web of fear was known but not public at the time that this was made.

629
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:57.840
I mean, it certainly would have been playing on Stephen's mind.

630
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:00.780
Because he was one of the people who knew about it.

631
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:01.440
Who knew about it?

632
00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:01.860
Yeah, yeah.

633
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:20.639
And so, because this season originally was kind of a reaction against 6 and so we don't have the complex serialisation that we had in 6 and those sort of interlocking elements and everything was going to be a movie of the week.

634
00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:32.760
But in spite of that, you know, unable to help himself, I mean, there is a character arc with Amy and Rory and the doctor in the 1st half of the season.

635
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:41.820
And then there are 2 elements, I think, in the 2nd half, which is the great intelligence.

636
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:50.820
So he's chosen to have a sort of miniarch about the great intelligence because perhaps he's aware that the web of fear is back.

637
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:56.039
And as far as I recall, the snowmen were shot very late in the run, so very close to transmission.

638
00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:57.119
Right, okay.

639
00:45:57.179 --> 00:46:01.559
And, and of course, who is Clara is the other one.

640
00:46:01.619 --> 00:46:04.860
And it's interesting that.

641
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:10.559
So Russell kills Kylie on Christmas Day. which is a bit of a downer.

642
00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:17.039
And and Moffatt kills Jenna, again, on Christmas Day.

643
00:46:17.099 --> 00:46:18.420
Not so much of a downer.

644
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:21.360
Well, but it is that...

645
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:25.739
We should have seen it coming because the moment Clara kisses the doctor, you know it's certain doom.

646
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:33.119
It's actually a little bit kind of horrible, I think.

647
00:46:33.179 --> 00:46:36.840
And so what defeats the snowman?

648
00:46:36.900 --> 00:46:48.480
What thaws the world that this story is in is the grief over the loss of someone, their their governess?

649
00:46:48.539 --> 00:47:00.179
And the doctor is experiencing grief over the loss of Amy and Rory, but his way of dealing with it has been to kind of shut himself away from everything and to try and not feel it.

650
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:04.860
And so it's actually feeling grief that kind of resolves the story.

651
00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:14.519
But there is something, like we've got a manic pixie dream girl getting fridged, you know, now she's killed.

652
00:47:14.579 --> 00:47:22.739
Do you, when she's lying on the snow, having just fallen and the way the camera comes across her.

653
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:28.019
For me, it's very reminiscent of a classic series regeneration.

654
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:29.159
Okay.

655
00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:30.420
Yes, you're right.

656
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:35.039
And giving her sort of, I mean, I don't know where that's liberal.

657
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:38.460
That's probably just the way you know, a director will shoot someone who's dying.

658
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:45.480
Because I said, that is one of the most beautiful moments of the episode where they just hear the thud because obviously you don't want to see it.

659
00:47:45.539 --> 00:47:46.739
She's lying there.

660
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:48.539
The camera tracks in on her.

661
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:50.760
Even the thud though is the thud is quite graphic.

662
00:47:50.820 --> 00:47:57.059
And then the doctor, when Vastra says, he's coming for her and the TARS materialise around it.

663
00:47:57.119 --> 00:47:58.139
That's a beautiful sequence.

664
00:47:58.199 --> 00:47:59.219
Really?

665
00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:00.059
Really nice.

666
00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:01.380
Quite tear joking.

667
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:04.500
I just wanted her to live.

668
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:06.599
Like all throughout the episode.

669
00:48:06.659 --> 00:48:07.920
I don't know.

670
00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:09.420
Like, I mean, I think my memory cheats.

671
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:11.039
Like, I don't know if I expected her to die.

672
00:48:11.099 --> 00:48:13.079
Like when she kissed the doctor, I thought that was concerning.

673
00:48:13.139 --> 00:48:19.440
And of course, then they were up in the TARDIS and he gives it the key and it's sort of like, well, this is too quick. know.

674
00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:21.900
Whenever the doctor is inviting someone aboard.

675
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:22.440
That's it.

676
00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:23.460
Yeah, that's for them.

677
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:24.840
Yeah, Linda with a Y.

678
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:28.739
Red flags.

679
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.400
Yeah, yeah.

680
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:34.920
You know, and then to be pulled out of the TARDIS in that slow motion sequence.

681
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:39.420
I mean, it's all rather gorgeous, but I can understand it's bleak.

682
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.039
The bleakness of it all.

683
00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:51.900
If I can just pick up on that thing about handing the key over, regardless of whether it's a red flag for you, it's almost like communicating something that is unspoken in the show, you know, why does someone, why does this person become a companion and not that person?

684
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:54.539
You know, I never know why I only know who.

685
00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:58.320
I think it's that thing that we know a companion when we see one.

686
00:48:58.380 --> 00:48:59.280
You know what I mean?

687
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:05.099
Well, I do think there is that moment where she draws the conclusion about the umbrella.

688
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:09.900
Why has the doctor brought the umbrella with him and she does a homes style deduction?

689
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:12.179
And so she's similar enough to him.

690
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:18.900
There are moments like that going right back to Rose where the doctor looks at Rose after she says something particularly perceptive and says, that's very good.

691
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:20.340
It's like this little movement.

692
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:21.599
The students.

693
00:49:21.659 --> 00:49:23.579
The autons must be students.

694
00:49:23.639 --> 00:49:24.480
Yeah.

695
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:34.019
I mean, I think they should have run with the doctor's companion just becomes the 1st person that he sees because then we would have had Sir Wester McCoy with the runny. would have been awesome.

696
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:35.760
Well, she was dressed as man.

697
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.099
We had a few episodes of it.

698
00:49:38.219 --> 00:49:40.980
Series 26 finale.

699
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:42.239
You mean you're not Mel?

700
00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:59.760
It's a sequence on the roof with the governess after them when she falls on top of the doctor and that whole exchange of dialogue and just more Jenna delivers.

701
00:49:59.820 --> 00:50:04.500
Just throughout this entire episode, I just loved her so much more than Amy.

702
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:08.460
I'm going back to my original run and thoughts.

703
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:10.619
I didn't like Amy that much.

704
00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:19.260
And quite often, what happens with me is that if I haven't liked something, then the next one, the next person that comes along is like fantastic.

705
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:21.599
Well, it's like Peter Davidson, Colin Colin.

706
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:22.679
Like, there's that.

707
00:50:22.739 --> 00:50:24.480
So, you know, that transition is hard.

708
00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:32.219
But for me, she just, throughout this entire episode, one of the joys is the fact that it's not, at the time, it's not Amy.

709
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:40.619
Now, obviously I've come to love Amy so much more in Rory, but I still love the fact that it's fresh and new because we've had 2.5 years ago. you know?

710
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:44.039
And then she gets to die.

711
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:50.760
Do you think we expect her to die because Oswald died in Asylum of the Darlings?

712
00:50:50.820 --> 00:50:51.420
I didn't.

713
00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:53.400
I thought she was just going to be whisked off in the Tartars.

714
00:50:53.460 --> 00:51:00.960
And it just seemed unlikely that we would have a character from not the present day as a companion.

715
00:51:01.019 --> 00:51:03.420
Yeah, but maybe that's what I was hoping.

716
00:51:03.539 --> 00:51:03.719
Yeah.

717
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:06.780
Certainly people were saying that. would have liked that.

718
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:08.940
And Clara's very contemporary.

719
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.159
She doesn't use like barmaid Clara.

720
00:51:11.219 --> 00:51:15.119
She doesn't use contemporary language, but in her attitudes and the way that she works things out.

721
00:51:15.179 --> 00:51:15.960
She's contemporary.

722
00:51:16.019 --> 00:51:16.739
And she's not Victoria.

723
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:21.179
Yeah, and she's not so far in the past that she can't understand new technology.

724
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:26.699
I think that's the thing that I just wanted to have a companion that was from the past, you know?

725
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:31.139
Because when Madame Vastra is interviewing her to be the next companion, actually.

726
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:35.579
Basically, it's not whether, you know, she knows what the internet is.

727
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:39.659
It's whether her brain is open to concepts, new concepts and ideas.

728
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:42.119
That's basically what Master is doing.

729
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:47.699
Yeah, that would have been amazing if that was Jenna Coleman's actual audition with Stephen Mothad saying, why do you want this role?

730
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:48.780
One word.

731
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.000
Jenna Coleman going, salary.

732
00:51:51.059 --> 00:51:53.280
Yes, exactly. mortgage.

733
00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:56.760
Career.

734
00:51:57.659 --> 00:52:00.119
It does go on to be Queen Victoria's.

735
00:52:00.179 --> 00:52:00.840
Yeah, yeah.

736
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:02.039
She does.

737
00:52:02.099 --> 00:52:11.400
So I guess then what happens is that the doctor is animated by the mystery?

738
00:52:11.460 --> 00:52:14.400
He's withdrawn from 2 things, hasn't he?

739
00:52:14.460 --> 00:52:18.420
He's withdrawn from solving the problem and he's withdrawn from saving the day.

740
00:52:18.420 --> 00:52:28.559
And we see him go back to solving the problem when he does that ridiculous Sherlock Holmes thing, where he's super terrible at being Sherlock Holmes.

741
00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:33.840
And now he's also discovered that there's a problem.

742
00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:39.059
The day has been saved, but it was kind of saved by Clara and the family.

743
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:43.320
But now he has this mystery that's kind of animating him.

744
00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:57.780
And I guess the death of Clara, in the 19th century is kind of softened by our view of the Clara, who we now know, is going to be the doctor's companion for the rest of the season.

745
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:11.699
But I love all the flashback dialogue, like, run you, Clipper boy, remember, and then cut into the to him at the grave, which, again, has Osmond, Clara Osmond Oswald, which is explained, I know.

746
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:16.019
It's so paper thin that I just dislike it intensely.

747
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:36.119
And then, of course, cutting to a more modern Clara in that same position, again. conveniently so, but the universe is conspiring to put her in that position and them into that position, which I, which I just love all that sort of, yeah, the threads that are there that are binding that sort of together.

748
00:53:36.179 --> 00:53:46.440
Yeah, even though I don't like the fact that she died in this episode at the time, I was thinking, oh, like when we just picked up the companion from this point, you need the 3rd Clara for it to work at the end of the season.

749
00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:48.300
It's not a pattern if it's just happened once before.

750
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:49.199
Yes, exactly.

751
00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:50.099
You need the 3 of them.

752
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:50.340
Yeah.

753
00:53:50.340 --> 00:53:50.639
Yeah.

754
00:53:50.699 --> 00:53:54.420
Yeah, and Malford is so often criticised about killing off his companions and then bringing them back.

755
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:56.639
Why not come up with an in universe reason?

756
00:53:56.699 --> 00:53:57.059
Yeah, exactly.

757
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:08.880
I would have actually liked to have seen a Clara turn up in the Wild West, like as they leave, like in a stagecoach, just to just to have a link to what happens later on in the season.

758
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:23.699
And that one, because the Asylum of the Daleks and the snowman Clara are our versions of Clara that don't remember the doctor, whereas you could have that one in, you know, a town called Mercy turn up at the stagecoach just as they're leaving and she's one that actually knows who the doctor is running up going, doctor, wait.

759
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:26.340
Belt out the chorus to the last chance.

760
00:54:28.500 --> 00:54:34.500
Maybe that's something that he was trying to avoid, even though there are those mini arcs and mini character developments.

761
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:41.400
What you don't get in this season is all of these endless sort of at the end of the episode, some reference to the ongoing plot.

762
00:54:41.460 --> 00:54:43.500
I think that's possibly what he was trying to avoid.

763
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:45.300
Yeah, so he's reacting to what he did like.

764
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:46.500
Yes, yes, yes, again.

765
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:46.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

766
00:54:47.099 --> 00:54:53.039
The one thing that I was a bit disappointed about was the fact that Vastra just gets knocked out in one second.

767
00:54:53.099 --> 00:54:57.059
Yeah, I would have liked to have seen her do more fighting.

768
00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:58.920
Well, just do a bit more.

769
00:54:58.980 --> 00:55:04.619
I mean, she has her one sequence, but then that's about it, really, for her. anyway, that's a minor thing.

770
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:18.840
I just think that this episode, and I link it to the 1st half of the season, is that the 5 episodes we've seen previously, it's all building, and although I think the power of 3 is slightly weaker than the rest, but I think Angels is great.

771
00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:30.119
I just love this even more and it's sort of like the anticipation for the 2nd half of the season and sort of like, it's only going to get better, but I could be massively let down, like, like, could you?

772
00:55:30.420 --> 00:55:41.099
I have been watching ahead and, but you know, you run that risk of then saying you wanted to keep getting better and better and you know that there's only, you know, so far episodes can go.

773
00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:43.679
I mean, compared to the patchiness of series 6.

774
00:55:43.739 --> 00:55:46.260
This has been a remarkable return for.

775
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:50.340
This is a really solid run. 2012 is a pretty good year for Doctor Who, I think.

776
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.260
All 6 episodes.

777
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:52.920
Yeah.

778
00:56:16.980 --> 00:56:20.400
Well, hey, listener, that's all we have time for, for now.

779
00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:25.980
We'll be back soon with the second half of Series 7 in the Bells of St.

780
00:56:25.980 --> 00:56:26.460
John.

781
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:45.840
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Intertera, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek Project.

782
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:50.460
Until next time, run, you clever boy, and remember.

783
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:53.159
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

784
00:56:53.219 --> 00:56:54.599
See you soon.

785
00:56:54.659 --> 00:56:55.440
Good night.

786
00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:56.039
Bye bye.

787
00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:06.059
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd, we'll be Nathan Bottomley, Peter Grifferson, Simon Moore.

788
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:08.099
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

789
00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:14.099
This episode, good smugness, was recorded on the 24th of April 2022 and released on the 25th of July.

790
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:31.260
Simon Moore and Peter Griffiths will be returning in the next season of FTE Playhouses, Holmes and Watson in The Mystery of the People who Don't Like the Partagnoster Game very much for some reason, available from all of the least discriminating audiobook services.

791
00:57:31.260 --> 00:57:32.880
Merry Christmas, everyone.

792
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:37.679
That's it.

793
00:57:37.739 --> 00:57:38.280
What do you think?

794
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:40.380
Yeah, yeah.

795
00:57:40.380 --> 00:57:48.000
I mean, I had a line about, I only had a line about the fact that the Mary Poppins routine, I thought, was nicely done, but not too overplayed.

796
00:57:48.059 --> 00:57:48.719
I thought that was lovely.

797
00:57:48.780 --> 00:57:52.320
I think Mary Poppins is better when she comes back in series eight.

798
00:57:53.340 --> 00:57:54.960
Far out.

799
00:57:55.019 --> 00:58:01.860
She's so good And it's smaller on the inside. don't like that line. smaller on the outside. whatever. smaller on the outside.

800
00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:04.559
I do like it when the staircase is taller on the inside.

801
00:58:04.619 --> 00:58:06.119
Yeah, that's fair.

802
00:58:06.300 --> 00:58:09.059
Do you know, they use that as the promotional image.

803
00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:10.739
You know, each episode was meant to be a movie.

804
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:12.239
And so I had one big hero image.

805
00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:15.719
The image is the doctor and Clara clinging to that ladder on the cloud.

806
00:58:15.780 --> 00:58:16.380
It's amazing.

807
00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:18.000
So good, isn't it?

808
00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:18.900
It's so beautiful.

809
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:21.059
Yeah I mean, it's...

810
00:58:21.059 --> 00:58:25.380
So where are we, where are we putting it in Christmas specials?

811
00:58:25.500 --> 00:58:26.460
Moffin writes 10.

812
00:58:26.699 --> 00:58:28.739
This is one of my top ones.

813
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:32.340
Hey, right, 10 Christmas movies. seasons are all spread out.

814
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:34.079
I'm going to put this at number 3.

815
00:58:34.260 --> 00:58:37.199
So a Christmas Carol.

816
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:37.860
Number two.

817
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:39.900
Christmas Carol's 2 for you.

818
00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:41.760
No, time of the doctor.

819
00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:42.539
Absolutely, yeah.

820
00:58:42.539 --> 00:58:44.280
I'm a doctor. not like that at first.

821
00:58:44.340 --> 00:58:45.539
No, I love it.

822
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:46.440
Really?

823
00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:49.619
It took time to work out what, what's going on?

824
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:52.139
And I still think there are ways you could improve the script.

825
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:56.099
Yes, to give it a little bit more coherence, but I like it a lot.

826
00:58:56.219 --> 00:58:57.000
Yeah, yeah.

827
00:58:57.059 --> 00:59:01.380
I probably put this one at three. fractionally behind time of the doctor.

828
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:06.900
But a Christmas carol's just still going to be deep. streets ahead of everything just because it's phenomenal.

829
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:12.539
Do you know, I secretly like the Return of Dr. Mysterio, even though it's a terrible Christmas special.

830
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:13.440
That's actually fun.

831
00:59:13.500 --> 00:59:16.199
I think last Christmas is magnificently.

832
00:59:16.260 --> 00:59:17.639
Christmas is magnificent.

833
00:59:17.699 --> 00:59:19.980
I put this, I put this near the top.

834
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:21.840
Like I think I like a...

835
00:59:22.139 --> 00:59:27.420
I think I prefer to watch it. over a Christmas carol um because of the work I have to do with that.

836
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:30.480
I also love Voyage of the Damned every single time.

837
00:59:30.539 --> 00:59:34.139
It's got highly and it's Russell and all of that.

838
00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:36.239
And you doesn't want to hit a bum nose at Christmas.

839
00:59:36.300 --> 00:59:41.039
You don't want... sorry, Brendan, the doctor, the widow and the wardrobe. and you don't want the end of time part one.

840
00:59:41.099 --> 00:59:42.599
No.

841
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:46.739
Well, at the end of time, part one's not really a Christmas special. coincidentally on Christmas, isn't it?

842
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:49.079
I'm really surprised how much you...

843
00:59:49.139 --> 00:59:51.780
Guys are into time of the doctor as a Christmas special.

844
00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:54.719
I guess I haven't got up to that watching yet.

845
00:59:54.780 --> 00:59:58.619
So I'm going to be really interested to see what I do think of it as a Christmas sort of special.

846
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:00.960
I think it's the 2nd best Matt Smith story.

847
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:01.860
Really?

848
01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:02.280
Wow.

849
01:00:02.340 --> 01:00:03.119
Yeah.

850
01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:07.860
I mean, it's also, for me, the circumstances under which I watched it and I'll go into this more detail.

851
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:08.760
I think I won the episode.

852
01:00:09.179 --> 01:00:12.239
I was we were in Poland.

853
01:00:12.300 --> 01:00:20.460
And because it was the Brian didn't want to watch it on an iPad, but I thought, no, no, no, because I didn't want to be spoiled by how the document was.

854
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:23.159
I thought, no, no, no, on, on, I think it was Boxing Day.

855
01:00:23.219 --> 01:00:25.139
Well, maybe it was, yeah, it would have been Boxing Day.

856
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:42.000
I was in the hotel, you know, we had a kind of siesta cocktail hour and I was sitting on the bed watching it on an iPad mini with headphones in completely enclosed in the cold with like, you know, Krakov outside was quite magical for me.

857
01:00:42.059 --> 01:00:49.260
And I think the circumstances in how you watch an episode, I think, cannot be under stated in terms of how you enjoy it.

858
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:53.579
I was under complete duress for the Doctor the widow of the wardrobe.

859
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:55.860
And that was just watching and I didn't need any other.

860
01:00:55.980 --> 01:01:03.659
I watched the very last Christmas special, which was twice upon a time.

861
01:01:03.719 --> 01:01:13.559
In the 1st class lounge at Dubai Airport at 3 o'clock in the morning and I've never watched it again since and I really hated it.

862
01:01:13.619 --> 01:01:23.099
But I am almost certain that that's because I was sleep deprived that in this sort of weird liminal space between one place and another.

863
01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:24.239
One universe and another.

864
01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:27.420
I think that was also a real flex that you managed to get.

865
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:27.840
Yeah, yeah.

866
01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:29.400
Well, he didn't crack off, all right?

867
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:31.739
You see, I quite like...

868
01:01:31.739 --> 01:01:33.360
There's a lovely hotel on the main square too.

869
01:01:33.420 --> 01:01:34.380
It was beautiful.

870
01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:35.460
And it was so suited.

871
01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:45.719
But no, but yeah, that would have ruined it for me because you're in this, yeah, foreign space. foreign space, not like being in a foreign country, but yeah, as you say, it's like interstitial time. 0 room.

872
01:01:45.780 --> 01:01:48.360
The gap between now and now.

873
01:01:49.260 --> 01:01:52.260
You expect a Gundan to come in and start.

874
01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:53.699
Although at least you wouldn't have paid.

875
01:01:53.699 --> 01:01:56.699
Did you have people constantly interrupting you wanting to give you food and drinks?

876
01:01:56.820 --> 01:01:58.860
No, no, no, no, because it's basically dessert.

877
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:00.239
Basically dessert.

878
01:02:00.300 --> 01:02:04.079
But stupidly brightly linked. everybody puts that episode down.

879
01:02:04.139 --> 01:02:05.579
I don't think it's as bad as everybody says.

880
01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:07.559
It probably is better than I think, but it is.

881
01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:09.000
Yeah, I quite like it.

882
01:02:09.059 --> 01:02:11.219
But there's just one problem.

883
01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:14.699
That's the characterisation of the 1st doctor, but that's another time.

884
01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:22.559
Oh, it's kind of what happens even when you get a genius like Stephen Motha when he's forced to carve 5 minutes off the end of the last episode and whip it up into something.

885
01:02:22.619 --> 01:02:23.579
That's right.

886
01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:24.960
Yes, yes. a bit rough.

887
01:02:25.019 --> 01:02:26.940
All right, I'm going to stop.

888
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:30.599
That might be a tag, actually, because I do like that conversation about Christmas.

889
01:02:30.659 --> 01:02:32.280
Okay, specials, you think?

890
01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:34.079
This context is very important.

891
01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:35.099
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