WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:45:45

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that pays for its yearly holidays on

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Ackerton with used pizza boxes and empty wine bottles.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm Peter.

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Well, the doctor is taking his new friend Clara off on her 1st big

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space adventure as part of his ongoing application process to

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become her official stalker.

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It's the end of the world's new Earth, Planet of the Ude, and the

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Beast Below, all rolled into one.

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Welcome to the Rings of Ackerton.

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I don't hate this.

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I don't hate this at all.

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I don't think I hate it either.

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Um, it still has some of the problems.

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It had for me in 2013, but I enjoyed it a lot more this time.

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I actually think it's really strong and I loathed it.

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Yeah. 2013 and it wasn't on this rewatch.

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It was on a previous one that I actually thought, no, this is

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really good.

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And I love the way it sort of links in with the last episode, which

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also I thought was pretty weak 1st time through, but now I like

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both of these, like 7.5 to 8 for that one and this one definitely

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an 8 for me.

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Sorry, I'm getting it all my hearts.

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But no, I really like these as a one-two punch at the beginning.

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I think there's some really great character work for Clara.

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Yep.

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You know, the whole leaf thing between the 2 episodes and all the

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great intelligence last episode and the woman in the shop giving

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her the message.

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And I think Matt's great in both of these too.

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I have a few problems with it, I think.

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And one of them, I think you'll be astonished to learn, is

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something to do with Matt's performance, but I think this is

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better than I thought it was initially as well.

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El Sandra says, in her review of this episode, or maybe the

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previous one, that series 7 B is generally good, but there's one

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episode in which it falls down and that one episode is basically

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different for everyone.

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And I do think, yeah, I do think that Rings of Ackerton is not

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widely liked.

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No, it is exceptionally maligned and I can't quite work out why

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because even though I think it is a little bit thin and

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lightweight in a lot of ways, I don't know how you could

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vehemently not like it.

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I mean, to give you some context to that, I did the 1st 50 years

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Paul, forgot 2 magazine.

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And this came in the bottom 10 stories.

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From memory, it was like number 233 out of 241 and that just

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beggars belief.

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It is simply not that bad.

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What do you think the problem might be?

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Well, on my initial watch?

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Todd Alert was like small children, small children who sing, like

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doubly so.

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And, you know, last week we had some child actors in as well.

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Oh, tell us about that.

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Probably couldn't find them.

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They're back.

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They're back for the best episode of the season.

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Nightmare of Silver.

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God, that's a terrible.

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So that's interesting for another time.

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But for me, I was clouded by the fact that there was this child

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actor and we're having singing to resolve things and that just put

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me off and I was just over it.

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But I actually think this thing's very beautiful.

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Yeah.

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And I think she's actually a very good little actress.

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You know who she is, don't you?

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No, no.

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She is Amelia Jones, who is the lead in last year's Oscar winning

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film coda.

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Oh, well, I'm really glad she's had success because I think she's

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wonderful as well.

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She's really good and she's also a nice singer.

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Yeah, I think she'd been acting since she was eight.

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But she's continued to work, unlike some of our favourite child

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actors from the Moffatt era.

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I think she is really strong as well.

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I wonder, though, whether the problem is that this isn't science

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fiction in any real sense of the word, and it does seem to come

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from someone new to the show.

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It does a whole heap of things that Doctor Who doesn't normally

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do.

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And so maybe it's the weird fantasy element of it that put people

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off.

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Two things put me off on the 1st viewing.

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It's very strangely paced.

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Like, it's it's kind of top heavy and then not much happens in the

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middle and then it's a result. kind of peters out in the middle

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and then at the end.

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Yeah, and the other thing that put me off at the time. was, and

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you see, this is so stupid and I was going to say, oh, this is an

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example of immaturity.

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I was 30, dear listener.

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So was Mary.

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I thought the creature in the glass cage was a draconian and it

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wasn't a draconian and that made me really cross.

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Wow, which is just stupid.

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It's just stupid, but it even looks like it's wearing draconian

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stuff.

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All right, grandad.

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Don't look askant sitting there on your throne behind glass.

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Eyes can be seen mouth computing.

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I went into it this time, not expecting to dislike it, but just

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knowing I disliked it last time, and I thought, I'm not going to

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focus on those elements I didn't like.

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I'm just going to sort of let it wash over me.

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And there's just something so charming about it.

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It's like, the doctor often says, you know, I don't go looking for

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trouble.

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I don't go looking for trouble.

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I travel to see things.

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And this is a story that actually goes, no, for the 1st 15 minutes

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the doctor is just here because this is a lovely, beautiful place

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to be and he wants to show Clara something nice.

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And I think that is, It's responsible for the weird pacing, but

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it's also a really great change of pace.

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I wonder if the reason it's so poorly received is because it comes

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between Bells of St.

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John, which we said last week. is very slight, but very confident

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and brisk, and enjoyable, and Cold War, which I know a lot of

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people have problems with, and I can understand.

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But at the same time, has an nice warrior and an all-star cast

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like has got Cunningham and David Warner and Tobias Menzies, Prince

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Charles.

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Prince Charles.

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It's the 2 Prince Philips.

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Yes.

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But I think for that reason and the fact that it's a bit weird

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people judge it harsher.

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I think it would be a production thing as well because coming with

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the fantasy element, it's very green screen heavy and Doctor Who

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is not usually that.

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And so it has kind of shades of the Phantom menace to us, and I

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think it might turn off a few people.

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But I like it.

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I really like the fact that it's trying to be alien. and

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charmingly so.

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It's got that Star Wars cantina kind of vibe.

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And, you know, it reminds you of every Star Trek Voyager

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marketplace that they that they ever visited.

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It's really interesting better you talk about Star Wars because

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yes, that it's got the cantina.

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But I also think, you know, when they're in that arena and sitting

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down, It's sort of like the attack of the clones, like, yeah, going

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to watch something.

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Yeah, or Tsung, can't say, with Jerry Ryan beating the crap out of

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the rock in Voyager.

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I don't think I've watched that.

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You should.

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But if we go back to the beginning, The beginning is the doctor

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seeing how Clara's parents met with the leaf and the fact that

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he's almost run over by a car.

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Shades of rose and yeah.

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And then the doctor's really creepily watching on Clara.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and that is a little bit of a problem.

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And Moffat doesn't want, look, he gets to introduce, what, 3

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companions, right?

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And it's only by the 3rd go that he's confident enough to just say

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he or she is.

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This is the new companion.

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She's going to come into the Tartars and say it's bigger on

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the...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Whereas here he's got this huge kind of structure around the

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appearance of Clara in that she's appeared twice before there's a

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mystery about her.

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And so what we get is the doctor sort of creepily going back and

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investigating her backstory.

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How can she possibly just be Clara Oswald from 2013, age 24?

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What's kind of going on there?

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And I don't much like the fact that it's the 2nd companion in a

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row that he meets as a child.

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And in fact, the prequel scene thing is entirely that, isn't it?

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Yeah, the thing is, from a narrative point of view, he's coming

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off the back of paranoia with Amy and Rory and how they were used

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against him.

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But taken in isolation.

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And that's the thing.

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This is a reset for the series.

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Amy and Rory are never mentioned in these 1st 2 episodes.

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So if you come to this new, you're absolutely like, why is he

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doing this?

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Yeah.

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You know, um, I think Matt Smith being Matt Smith offsets some of

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the sinister element of it?

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like when he gets hit in the head with the ball and jumps into a

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Venusian karate stance.

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But at the same time, it is a repeat of what we've had before.

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We do get one big benefit from it, though, which is Clara's hot

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short dad.

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Yeah, he is hot, isn't he?

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It's a shame he won't be back for time of the doctor for some

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reason.

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Yeah.

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I think... homophobic.

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I think that it is Moffat doing the thing where instead of just

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having a flashback, so we're giving Clara some backstory.

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We're getting to know who she is in one sense.

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And given that this is the way the episode's going to resolve

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itself.

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We kind of need it.

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But we sort of just need it so that we know her better.

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But because we have a time machine, we can make the flashbacks not

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be flashbacks at all.

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We could just have the doctor going back into the past and

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experiencing them in real time.

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And it's clearly what he's doing between dropping her off at the

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end of Bells of St.

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John and picking her up again at 7 PM the following day.

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And another thing that I like about it is that we see Clara

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actually really looking forward to seeing him again, and she's

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sitting on the stairs waiting for him to arrive, whereas

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previously she'd sort of rather cooly dismissed him at the end of

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the episode.

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It's that modern day online romance thing where you have to be

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cool.

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And so even though you really want to hear from someone again or

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go out for a date.

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Don't text them too soon.

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And so, you know, the sort of you present an artifice to the world

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but really you're kind of keen on it.

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Yeah.

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But I do think, like, you know, as much as, you know, we can bring

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that up as being a bit of a point, I do think that it's great that

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this is continuing her character of development.

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I mean, the next 2 episodes, which were filmed before these, are

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just so generic and don't link to anything in the season.

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I think they really suffer because of it.

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Whereas this, I think it actually helps the ending or with the

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whole leaf thing really brings this story together when it could

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have just collapsed in upon itself.

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I think, too, that what they've done too is crafter story kind of

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around this leaf.

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So it's a story where... should have been rubber.

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Oh my god, a single leaf fell and a Clara grew.

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But we go to a planet where sentimental value is value.

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And there's some sort of hand wavy thing, but essentially it's

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kind of magic, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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The thing is, I don't mind that.

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Like Doctor Who has done psychometry before with Professor Clegg

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for instance, in Implanted the Spiders.

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Something I do have a little bit of a problem with watching

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through this time is the doctor is wearing Amy's specs.

251
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.139
And then when they go to get the space bike, he's like, oh, no, I

252
00:13:52.139 --> 00:13:53.940
don't have anything of sentimental value to give away.

253
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.500
And I don't think it's a conscious character moment, but I do kind

254
00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:02.039
of go, at the same time, is this the doctor going, okay, how far

255
00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:03.960
are you willing to go in travels?

256
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:08.159
Like, you can't, the universe isn't a free ride kind of thing.

257
00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:10.980
But I think if that were deliberate, it would have been cooled

258
00:14:10.980 --> 00:14:11.220
out.

259
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.399
And it does, it does mean we get the lovely moment where she gets

260
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:15.179
the ring back at the end.

261
00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.299
I was saying there's probably a practical reason to that in that

262
00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:20.639
he probably wears them in hide or something like that.

263
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:24.179
Yeah.

264
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.159
Can we talk about his costume?

265
00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:30.600
Because this is the 1st time that he's fully in the new costume.

266
00:14:30.659 --> 00:14:31.860
Yeah, with the Westcoat.

267
00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:37.320
Yeah, so we see him choose the purple coat thing.

268
00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:38.220
Purple.

269
00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:41.340
I actually have to say that I don't mind it and I think he looks

270
00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:42.120
pretty good.

271
00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:47.639
It's a shame that that sort of knee length kind of jacket thing is

272
00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:52.860
just 80s Doctor Who doctors all basically have that until...

273
00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:55.559
It's the tele movies idea of what the doctor should address.

274
00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:56.580
Yeah, it really is.

275
00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:00.059
And I think here, where suddenly he has a waistcoat and a watch

276
00:15:00.059 --> 00:15:03.240
chain and stuff like that, this is when it just gets stupid.

277
00:15:03.299 --> 00:15:07.019
I think it becomes a Doctor Who costume and I dislike it.

278
00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:08.820
Reminds me of Willy Wonka.

279
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:10.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

280
00:15:10.259 --> 00:15:14.460
And, and, you know, also, I think Tom had a short coat in his 1st

281
00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:16.259
series and then he got the longer coats.

282
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.679
It's a change and it's a costume.

283
00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:21.539
Yeah, right, totally nature.

284
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.080
Yeah, I mean, no one would wear what Matt wears in real life in

285
00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:29.460
seasons 5 and six, but once they would have.

286
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.899
And that kind of works, you know, when we get the doctor come up

287
00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:38.399
in the 1960s in 1963, he's wearing kind of Edwardian clothes.

288
00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:42.419
And so having a doctor in 2010 where sort of clothes from the

289
00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:44.820
1950s works as well, I think.

290
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.299
But it's also the kind of character is because you would see that

291
00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:52.799
series 56 outfit, but kind of on a slightly eccentric university

292
00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:53.759
boffin.

293
00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:56.279
You know, that's kind of style that they would go for.

294
00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.340
It works for the character, but this, I'm just not sure what this

295
00:15:59.340 --> 00:15:59.519
is.

296
00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:04.019
I quite like it, but I agree it's over designed.

297
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.620
And I think really, it looks much more real without the waistcoat

298
00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:10.980
last week.

299
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:11.759
Yeah.

300
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.059
They add the waistcoat this week and it just, it heightens it too

301
00:16:15.059 --> 00:16:15.419
much.

302
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.120
Is it Coco Chanel who said before you leave the house, look in the

303
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.320
mirror and take off one thing?

304
00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:20.820
Yeah, it's usually my pants.

305
00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:25.320
I was wondering about that ankle.

306
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:27.480
Your underpants?

307
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:29.580
Look you're modelling right now.

308
00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:35.039
He's basic instincting us as we speak.

309
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.860
But yeah, that's the thing.

310
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.340
It's like, I like it as a costume and I like it as a design, but

311
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:44.340
it's also very, very heightened.

312
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:48.000
And I also feel that this console room, which I know has been

313
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.419
discussed a couple of episodes ago, I know pretty much everyone

314
00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:53.879
loves this and it's their favourite of the new series.

315
00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:58.679
I think it's better later on when they make modifications, but

316
00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:03.299
even then, I think the console room is also too designed and too

317
00:17:03.299 --> 00:17:03.899
precise.

318
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.079
But I know I'm in the minority of that.

319
00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:09.359
Yes, Brendan.

320
00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.680
Yeah, I like the Whittaker console room.

321
00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:14.279
What do I know?

322
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:17.880
Do you also like the opening credits and dodo?

323
00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:19.980
Yes.

324
00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.140
And also new dodo.

325
00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:24.480
Lauren Cornelius doing a great job.

326
00:17:24.539 --> 00:17:28.680
But it kind of works because it works on Matt Smith.

327
00:17:28.740 --> 00:17:29.579
You know what I mean?

328
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:31.319
But I totally agree.

329
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.160
It is a costume.

330
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.220
And I think what we needed, He doesn't, like, he changes the shirt

331
00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:36.359
and bow tie every week.

332
00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:40.380
But I think maybe what we needed is the same cut of coat, but one

333
00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:43.200
or 2 different colours because, you know, as soon as Tenant gets

334
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.500
his blue suit, his costuming becomes a lot more interesting.

335
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.920
And, you know, he always varied it with like tie, no tie, et

336
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:50.279
cetera.

337
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:54.599
Matt had had different tweed coats and then he had the green great

338
00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:56.880
coat, which I know not everyone liked, but it was something

339
00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:57.420
different.

340
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.799
This, he, it's just too much the same all the way through.

341
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:04.259
They're not changing enough each week.

342
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:06.240
Purple just don't work for me.

343
00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:07.200
Yeah.

344
00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:10.799
I'm kind of getting a Colin Baker vibe from it.

345
00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:14.099
And it's another one of those occasions where you think if only

346
00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:16.799
Colin had been allowed to wear something a little bit more like

347
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:21.180
this where it is weird, it is still a costume, but it's not quite

348
00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:24.599
as horrific as what he was forced to wear for his time on the

349
00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:24.839
show.

350
00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:26.279
You keep looking at me.

351
00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:29.940
Well, it's because you came here dressed in Colin Baker's outfit

352
00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:31.140
and I'm trying to be polite about it.

353
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.559
At the hair.

354
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:37.920
No, no, no.

355
00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:39.420
I'm totally fine with these comments.

356
00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:42.900
You look fabulous.

357
00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:51.779
I have to say, I really like Doreen.

358
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:53.099
Lovely smile.

359
00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:57.539
Yeah, adore in the moped Wrangler.

360
00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:00.359
I've got that written down.

361
00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:04.799
Oh, I called it the moped renter, but it...

362
00:19:04.859 --> 00:19:07.799
I like a little barking, like et cetera, with carvinista, and they

363
00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:09.599
could bark at each other to their heart's content.

364
00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:13.619
My favourite thing about the name is that in the credits, there's

365
00:19:13.619 --> 00:19:16.680
an apostrophe because it's a space name.

366
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.779
Because it is...

367
00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:21.480
Like the hoofaloo.

368
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:26.339
But I just like the fact that it's the whole marketplace and you

369
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:30.299
get to see all sorts of different alien designs and we've seen

370
00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:31.259
that a couple of times.

371
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:31.799
Yeah.

372
00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:35.220
Well, I think, you know, obviously the end of the world is the

373
00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:37.680
kind of locus classicus of that.

374
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:42.779
You take her to an alien place but make it really properly alien.

375
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.819
And he rattles off a list of alien names which I can't remember.

376
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.480
I like the pan Babylonians, that's one of my favourite ones, I

377
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:51.720
think.

378
00:19:51.779 --> 00:19:54.900
They're Babylonians, and they're not very picky about who they're

379
00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:57.000
going to have sex with. is the idea.

380
00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:59.460
I like the Hooveloo.

381
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.640
Yeah, it's like a list of your house cleaning tasks.

382
00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:07.559
I like the blue fruit.

383
00:20:07.619 --> 00:20:09.720
I would have a norm on that Bluefruit.

384
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:11.039
It looks nice, doesn't it?

385
00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:11.519
Yeah, yeah.

386
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:13.200
Clara doesn't like it, but the doctor clearly does.

387
00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:18.900
See, it just isn't quite as good as the beef slushy in the long

388
00:20:18.900 --> 00:20:22.380
game, which is, I guess, the other time that we do this.

389
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:24.599
And let's not forget the start of turn left.

390
00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:25.500
Yeah.

391
00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:26.880
Yeah, yeah.

392
00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:27.299
Yeah, yeah.

393
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.900
I think what really works about the bluefruit for me is Clara sort

394
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:34.920
of biting into it and smiling and going, and then going, hmm.

395
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:37.140
That's something that the stools lady would say.

396
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.180
Greatest show, yeah.

397
00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:42.779
And that leads us to a great bit where the doctor wanders off.

398
00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:44.220
Yeah, yeah.

399
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:45.779
Clara's like, what?

400
00:20:45.779 --> 00:20:48.779
And then she gets embroiled in the adventure.

401
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.420
But nothing terrible happens, like she doesn't get knocked out

402
00:20:51.420 --> 00:20:53.640
like Amy does or something like that.

403
00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:55.680
And then when the doctor finds... beckoned into a tent.

404
00:20:55.740 --> 00:20:57.180
Red hair.

405
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.839
Big guys.

406
00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:03.000
Do you want to see the snake in my globe?

407
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.839
I flutter my fingers.

408
00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:12.839
It's lovely that, you know, Clara's 1st intervention on an alien

409
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.779
world doesn't lead to something horrible happening.

410
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.140
It doesn't lead to her getting locked up and it like things start

411
00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.779
to go wrong, but the plot very clearly says, no, no, no.

412
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.279
Clara didn't do anything wrong.

413
00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:25.019
Mary didn't do anything wrong.

414
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:29.039
It's this bastard over here who's messing things up for everyone.

415
00:21:29.099 --> 00:21:32.279
And I think it's so lovely when the doctor finds her again, she

416
00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:34.980
doesn't gush about, oh, you know, I helped the kid and da da da.

417
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.799
She's like, no, I'm just having fun and enjoying the sights.

418
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.319
And I think he sort of looks at her like, okay, no, something's

419
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:41.819
happened, but you're good.

420
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:42.359
It's all good.

421
00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:44.519
Let's go watch the song.

422
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:47.819
I love the fact that the doctor originally came here with his

423
00:21:47.819 --> 00:21:48.480
granddaughter.

424
00:21:48.539 --> 00:21:49.440
Yeah.

425
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.960
Why is that mentioned?

426
00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:55.680
I mean, I know it's to make Clara Boggle for a second.

427
00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:59.160
You know, this is a 30-year-old who apparently has a granddaughter

428
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.200
but the other... into Essex.

429
00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:09.119
I mean, the other grandfather in the episode is the grandfather

430
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:11.819
like that horrible mummy thing in the in the glass case.

431
00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:12.779
Yeah.

432
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:17.099
Well, I think there is an effort there of juxtaposition.

433
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:22.500
And it's played on in the climax in that the doctor gives, you

434
00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:23.099
know what I mean?

435
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:25.259
And there are times when the doctor is selfish and doesn't take

436
00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:28.140
other people into account because he's not a perfect character.

437
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:30.779
But the doctor is basically a giver.

438
00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.839
He gives people these experiences where all the other grandfather

439
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:34.500
does his take.

440
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:35.940
Yeah, yeah.

441
00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:39.059
I felt really wistful with that mention because there's something

442
00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:41.819
which the black and white years never did, which I wish they had

443
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:45.660
which was like, take the characters to a truly alien world with

444
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:47.160
marketplace and things like that.

445
00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:50.339
You can just imagine the doctor and Vicky poking around a place

446
00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:52.920
like this while Ian and Barber off, I don't know, getting sold

447
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:54.960
into slavery.

448
00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:57.299
And it was a real like, I wish that we'd seen that.

449
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:58.019
And so, yeah.

450
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:03.119
I will say, though, Marco Polo sort of does that because something

451
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:07.619
that David Whitaker said was that for Ian and Barbara, the past is

452
00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:10.140
as alien as an alien world.

453
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.539
But yeah, I totally agree with you there, Peter, because there's

454
00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:14.460
an element in the heart and malaria, because you have longer

455
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:14.940
stories.

456
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.720
You often have periods where the characters, like in the Romans

457
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:19.980
are just living in the time.

458
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:22.200
And that's what this seems to be.

459
00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:24.900
And I think the mention of Susan is both because it's the 50th

460
00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:25.559
anniversary.

461
00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:26.880
Oh, yeah, we're going to mention that.

462
00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:32.339
But it's motivated by the fact that the doctor is talking about

463
00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:35.400
this place so affectionately that Clara is like, oh, you've been

464
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:35.759
here before.

465
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:40.200
And I hear that and I immediately go, okay, we're going to get

466
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:41.579
another awkward gridlock moment.

467
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.299
But instead, Clara's just like, oh, you've brought me to somewhere

468
00:23:45.299 --> 00:23:46.440
you know is great.

469
00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:51.119
And it just, it makes me love this pairing immediately.

470
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.380
Like, they're both on the same frequency of, let's do something

471
00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:56.220
fun.

472
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.000
And we've had that line immediately previously where the doctor's

473
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:01.500
like, where do you want to go?

474
00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:04.319
And Clara says, you know that thing where you asked for your

475
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.480
favourite book and you suddenly forget every book you ever read?

476
00:24:06.539 --> 00:24:07.259
No, no idea.

477
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.559
It's so, it's so sweet.

478
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:14.099
I think if Richard were here, you know, he would be comparing it

479
00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.940
to Carrie Granton, Catherine Hepburn or Spencer Tracy and

480
00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:18.779
Catherine Hepburn.

481
00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:21.900
You know, they have that rapid fire thing between them, Matt and

482
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:23.819
Jenner. really gel very quickly.

483
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.400
And also that's such an easy thing to answer.

484
00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:27.900
Doctor Who Planet of the Daleks.

485
00:24:28.740 --> 00:24:30.119
Yeah.

486
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:36.119
I think they missed a trick with the whole Susan connection by not

487
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:40.200
having Clara at the end screaming, going, no, grandfather, no.

488
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:54.420
But it is quite nice because it's a fantastical situation, but in

489
00:24:54.420 --> 00:24:59.519
those scenes with Clara and Mary, Jenna is great and she's really

490
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.240
playing it just like a normal person who's come across child in

491
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:04.680
distress and reaching out to them.

492
00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:06.299
There's no kind of space acting involved.

493
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:11.099
But she's had 3 episodes in a row where she's had to be with small

494
00:25:11.099 --> 00:25:12.539
children at some point.

495
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:17.039
You know, she's a master at acting with them and helping their

496
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:18.960
performances or some of them anyway.

497
00:25:19.019 --> 00:25:22.799
It is very strange because we very definitely seem to be wanting

498
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:27.299
to position Clara as someone who is very caring.

499
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:30.900
And I don't know whether I've just got a false impression, but I

500
00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:37.319
think that she is much more brittle and much less like that in her

501
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.819
last 2 seasons, but maybe it's because I haven't rewatched them

502
00:25:41.819 --> 00:25:42.960
recently.

503
00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:47.279
Well, I think, though, the ongoing plot does attempt to explain

504
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:48.180
why that is.

505
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.140
But yeah, I think early on, we are we are setting up for that.

506
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:55.619
And something I really like about it is, you know, we've had the

507
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:59.099
flashback, we know what's happened to Clara's mother, Ellie.

508
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.660
But the story never says Clara looks after children because this

509
00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:04.440
happened to her.

510
00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:07.019
I think that's definitely the conclusion we're meant to draw as

511
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:10.859
the audience, but it's not crammed down our throats.

512
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.259
It's organic character development.

513
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:18.720
And something that I don't think is ever commented on is Ellie

514
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.380
dies on the 2nd day that Rose takes place.

515
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.859
So it's highly likely that Ellie was killed by an auton.

516
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.220
Yeah, I mean, I kind of want her not to have died for space

517
00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:33.599
reasons, obviously. because lots of people died on that day.

518
00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:34.140
Do you know what I mean?

519
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:35.279
And weren't...

520
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:35.940
Yeah, totally.

521
00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:37.259
When dresses or whatever.

522
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:39.960
But that date was also chosen by the production team.

523
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.980
You know, and I only noticed it this time around because I went, oh

524
00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:45.779
yeah, it's 2005. when the new series came back.

525
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.200
Oh yeah, it's March, which is when it's the 5th and I'm going to

526
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:50.400
Doctor Who Wikia now.

527
00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:55.019
But yeah, Jenna has such warmth in her performance there.

528
00:26:55.079 --> 00:27:00.359
And even when it looks like she was wrong and, you know, singing

529
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:01.859
the song was a bad idea.

530
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:07.740
And even when Mary attacks her, her instinct is, no, Mary, I know

531
00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:09.180
you're scared, I'm going to protect you.

532
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:13.799
It's really well done and it's done without big speechifying or

533
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:15.180
explaining character motivation.

534
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:16.920
Is Moffat doing a thing here?

535
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:20.519
Because we talked in the last podcast about the fact that the

536
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:24.960
great intelligence, it's thing is corrupting children and turning

537
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:25.920
into things.

538
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:29.759
So is Moffat playing that against the fact that Clara has this

539
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.400
really maternal role and bond with children?

540
00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:34.200
Yeah, maybe.

541
00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:37.980
Maybe there, I mean, Moffat, you know, the Moffat era is the 1st

542
00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:41.220
era of Doctor Who ever to regularly bring children into it.

543
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:43.440
You know, it is a Moffat thing.

544
00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.880
There aren't many children in Doctor Who before then. and there

545
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.420
haven't been many children subsequent to that either.

546
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:56.759
And, you know, for Moffatt, Doctor Who is the thing that you are

547
00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:59.099
slightly scared of that you watch as a child.

548
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:03.359
And Mothat might be the only producer, stroke showrunner who has

549
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:06.240
young children. time, didn't you?

550
00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:07.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

551
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:24.000
Can we talk about the setting?

552
00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:30.180
I sometimes wonder whether part of the antipathy towards this show

553
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:35.400
is that if you're a big kind of space science fiction, the setting

554
00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:36.660
is preposterous.

555
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.180
So Ackerton is a son.

556
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:42.480
See, this is where I was confused because it's referred to as a

557
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.180
sun at the beginning, but then it's referred to as a gas giant.

558
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.220
But maybe it's a binary star system.

559
00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:50.279
It's a gas giant with a frowny face in eyes.

560
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:55.380
So you've got the rings, which is like a, you know, like a disc of

561
00:28:55.380 --> 00:28:58.259
kind of, you know, asteroids.

562
00:28:58.259 --> 00:29:03.779
And we see 2 of the 7 asteroids or worlds or planets and they get

563
00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:04.740
referred to as planets.

564
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:08.759
Yeah, but they're not spherical or spheroid.

565
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:13.079
And in fact, the marketplace seems to be built on top.

566
00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:16.079
In fact, you know, on both planets, we seem to be building on top

567
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:20.819
of the asteroid, as if down was kind of still working and we get

568
00:29:20.819 --> 00:29:25.559
these planets that we can see from one planet to another one, sound

569
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.380
appears to carry from one planet to the other one.

570
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.799
The moped appears to go from planet to planet in like 3 seconds.

571
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:35.339
Yeah, so I'm sort of waving my hand in the corner and having a

572
00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:35.880
conniption.

573
00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:36.900
Yes, that's the thing.

574
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:38.039
That's the problem I have with it.

575
00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:40.019
It's like they sort of viewing everything that seems to be going

576
00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:42.359
on with grandfather over there and what goes in between.

577
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.359
And I can never work out if it's like from here to the end of this

578
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:47.759
room or from here to like 2 suburbs away.

579
00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:48.240
Yeah.

580
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:51.660
And so, that's one part of the episode where I kind of think, oh

581
00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:55.680
that's a bit unrealistic, like, yeah, that there's not clear how

582
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:56.640
all that happened.

583
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.299
And I can understand why it raises people's ire because Doctor Who

584
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:01.680
has never got its science wrong before.

585
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:04.200
Yeah exactly right.

586
00:30:04.259 --> 00:30:06.779
I never will again.

587
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:10.920
I think that there is a really, really proper effort to put

588
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:13.500
something super weird on the screen.

589
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:15.240
That's kind of why I like it.

590
00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:16.079
Yeah, me too.

591
00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:18.359
But you see, he wrote this after.

592
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:21.720
The other episode, which he does later in the season, is tied

593
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:27.720
which they liked, and then they got him to do some reason. as that

594
00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:31.200
can be, but that also tries to do something a bit different from

595
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:32.039
what you expect.

596
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:34.259
And so I think that's sort of similar here.

597
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:34.980
Yeah.

598
00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:40.440
The concept of this episode came about because Marcus Wilson, I

599
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:42.599
can't remember if he's producer or co-exec at this point.

600
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:46.319
No, I think I think just producer, but he pointed out to Stephen

601
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:48.660
Moffatt, look, in the 1st half of this series, we had our American

602
00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:52.920
shoot and our Spanish shoot, we don't have a budget for an

603
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:55.019
international shoot in this half, but we still want something

604
00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:56.039
visually spectacular.

605
00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:58.859
What if we created something on the scale of an international

606
00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:01.079
shoot as a science fiction setting?

607
00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:03.240
So it's like, right, we're going to have this marketplace and

608
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:04.740
we're going to have this pyramid and we're going to have more

609
00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:06.000
aliens than we've ever had before.

610
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:10.619
And the alien design work is one of the really successful things.

611
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:14.940
Like I only spotted one of them that was a reuse of an alien from

612
00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:15.839
earlier in the series.

613
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:18.839
And they did, they did say, oh, we can have Jadoon and we can have

614
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:19.680
this and we can have that.

615
00:31:19.740 --> 00:31:22.200
And Stephen Moffat actually said, no, if we're going to do this

616
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:25.619
let's not make it look like we've just raided the costume

617
00:31:25.619 --> 00:31:26.039
cupboard.

618
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:26.460
Yeah.

619
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:29.940
You know, and pretty much that went down to, okay, in that case

620
00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:32.700
we're not having Jadoon and Hoyks and Slovine.

621
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:33.299
Yeah.

622
00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:35.819
Although I think that one of the brothers hot pylene or something

623
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:37.559
is...

624
00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:43.259
And I think someone has mugged some half, stolen, stolen their

625
00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:45.299
breathing things, left them to drown.

626
00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:48.960
When they were mugged, they tried to call out for help and it

627
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:51.240
was...

628
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:55.380
Poor half key.

629
00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:00.660
It's kind of like there are moments where the marketplace looks

630
00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:01.140
really cheap.

631
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:02.339
Yeah, yeah.

632
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:04.079
Hey, but it's Doctor Who.

633
00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.700
The set looks really terrible.

634
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:10.079
I think a lot of it looks good and I kind of go, no, I would

635
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:14.579
rather you look cheap when you're trying to be ambitious than be

636
00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:17.640
cheap because you think it's going to look bad anyway.

637
00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:18.779
Yeah, you know.

638
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:19.259
Yeah.

639
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:22.500
Do you think some of the, I think some of the green screen is not

640
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:25.559
the best. like whether it be on the moped going between the

641
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:26.400
planets or whatever.

642
00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:30.420
Or where Mary is being dragged by that force field across to the

643
00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:31.319
grandfather's planet.

644
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:34.200
Which, of course, then undermines the whole distance between

645
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:34.740
things.

646
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:35.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

647
00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:37.980
And it's like the problem with Chromickey and the classic series

648
00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:41.160
and that some of it actually really is good, which only highlights

649
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:42.119
the bits that aren't.

650
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:42.720
Yeah.

651
00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:44.759
But again, I think I would agree with you.

652
00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:49.980
Rather than do the 90 Star Trek thing of, let's just not show

653
00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:54.000
anything too interesting because that would be expensive, we get

654
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.259
we don't care.

655
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:59.039
Let's try and see what we can do and some of it falls flat.

656
00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:00.720
But they deserve praise.

657
00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:01.259
Yeah.

658
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:04.440
I think I think they deserve praise for being like that rather

659
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.559
than then coming, cutting back and saying, well, we just did this

660
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:10.140
and this happened, you know, without actually seeing it, you know

661
00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:12.059
like 90 Star Trek voyager, it does.

662
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.539
Yeah, it's kind of like with the mopeds.

663
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.680
That came about because as part of this idea, Marcus Wilson said

664
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.700
to Neil Cross, you know what we've never done in Doctor Who?

665
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:27.539
We've never done something as good as the speeder bike chase in

666
00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:28.920
Return of the Jedi.

667
00:33:28.980 --> 00:33:29.880
It never will.

668
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:32.940
Yeah, it's like, you still haven't, mate.

669
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:35.039
That's the genesis of the idea.

670
00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:38.700
And I think it's one of those things where by the time it comes

671
00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:39.900
for them to do it.

672
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:44.039
They've kind of forgotten the original intent and they're just

673
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:48.000
doing it because it's there instead of just going, you know what?

674
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:53.700
Let's have a transmat cubicle over here and save the money to do

675
00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:55.019
this other shot here.

676
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:59.220
But at the same time, it's like the speed of bike stuff is sorry

677
00:33:59.220 --> 00:34:02.700
the moped stuff is not as bad as I remember it then.

678
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:03.119
Yeah.

679
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:07.859
The really dodgy bit of green screen for me is when the doctor's

680
00:34:07.859 --> 00:34:11.219
trying to unlock the door and he's standing about 3 or 4 metres

681
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:13.920
away from Clara because the camera is focussed on him, which means

682
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:18.300
she's out of focus, which means you get that CSO fuzziness around

683
00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:19.679
her head because there's no clean edge.

684
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:20.579
Yeah.

685
00:34:20.579 --> 00:34:23.219
And I'm just like, that's green screen 101.

686
00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:24.420
You've gotta have a clean edge.

687
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.360
You got to have everything on the same plane or you shoot in

688
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:28.440
multiple things.

689
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:32.400
In a way, I'm more critical of that than I am of the speed of bike

690
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.659
because that's something simple.

691
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:34.260
Yeah.

692
00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:38.820
I mean, look, the speed of bike is more interesting and having it

693
00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:42.179
go between planets rather than just from this mountain to the

694
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:45.360
nearby mountain is also more interesting.

695
00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:50.940
And so, look, I mean, the effects often don't come off at all, but

696
00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:52.739
you know, it's Doctor Who.

697
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:56.880
It's interesting how the Sonic's used here too. against those

698
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:58.980
soldiers with the blue energy and all that sort of thing.

699
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.380
It's much more of a weapon type thing.

700
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:06.179
I love the fact that it seems like it's costing Matt physical

701
00:35:06.179 --> 00:35:10.199
effort to hold the Sonic up under the door and that's actually

702
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:13.920
really funny. like that's an actually sort of fun beer.

703
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:15.840
Yeah, it's a good moment, I think.

704
00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:16.559
Yeah, yeah.

705
00:35:16.619 --> 00:35:18.599
Yeah, withholding back the vigil.

706
00:35:18.659 --> 00:35:22.139
There was a scripted explanation that was cut basically because it

707
00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:24.119
was an exposition speech during a fight.

708
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:25.679
Yeah, like we're not going to do that.

709
00:35:25.739 --> 00:35:29.699
And that is the vigil, they've got those grill like mouths because

710
00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:30.420
they're speakers.

711
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:31.860
They're attacking with sonic energy.

712
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:35.820
Ergo, the Sonic can counteract that and the doctor says, it's like

713
00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:37.139
noise cancelling headphones.

714
00:35:37.139 --> 00:35:41.579
And Clara says, what a noise cancelling. doesn't know about tech.

715
00:35:41.699 --> 00:35:43.559
We'll start with Clara.

716
00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:44.340
What's the Internet?

717
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:46.440
Voice cancelling headphones.

718
00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:48.480
Yeah, she's very non-techy.

719
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:49.920
Brandon, that's brilliant.

720
00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:52.079
That's just improved this story.

721
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:53.820
And the thing is, the effects.

722
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.860
Once I read that, I thought about the effect.

723
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.559
It's like, yeah, he's absolutely making a bubble around.

724
00:35:58.619 --> 00:36:03.960
And he does comment with the door that it's based on an audio lock

725
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:07.079
which for a culture based around song makes sense.

726
00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:10.739
And later, Mary, you know, remembers a song about a secret

727
00:36:10.739 --> 00:36:13.320
passageway and that opens the secret passageway.

728
00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:17.099
And that's the kind of alien thought logic that you get way back

729
00:36:17.099 --> 00:36:18.000
in the web planet.

730
00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:20.039
A silent wall.

731
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:23.039
We must make mouths in it with our guns so it will speak more

732
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:23.340
light.

733
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:29.039
You know, and for me, that that beauty and effort to imagine what

734
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:34.199
a different culture would emphasise and make important makes up

735
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:35.639
for the deficiencies in this episode.

736
00:36:35.699 --> 00:36:39.000
This kind of is a bit where planetish in that there's some

737
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:40.679
imagination happening.

738
00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:42.360
And I'm all on board for that.

739
00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:45.480
But you mentioned the singing, and I think that is another major

740
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:49.260
reason why people don't like it because people don't come to Dot 2

741
00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:50.400
for singing in general.

742
00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:53.940
I do quite like it because I think it's done quite nicely and I

743
00:36:53.940 --> 00:36:56.880
think it's an imaginative idea, but the episode is heavily

744
00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:57.599
focussed on it.

745
00:36:57.659 --> 00:37:02.219
I like that, though, because it does sort of work well with the

746
00:37:02.219 --> 00:37:06.480
rest of the sort of fantasy environment and it is literally magic

747
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:07.019
isn't it?

748
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:09.239
You aren't to certain words in certain patterns.

749
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:12.239
You do a ritual that you can't make a mistake in.

750
00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:17.159
All of those things are features of magic and religious ritual.

751
00:37:17.219 --> 00:37:22.139
And I think that it works really well too, because the music is

752
00:37:22.139 --> 00:37:22.679
great.

753
00:37:22.739 --> 00:37:27.059
And it means something to me retrospectively because it's the

754
00:37:27.059 --> 00:37:30.119
music that's used during Matt's regeneration.

755
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:32.760
And that makes me very sad.

756
00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:34.980
So it has resonance.

757
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:38.760
First time through, I just gave up with the singing.

758
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:39.780
I was going, oh, please.

759
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.000
But I really agree with you.

760
00:37:42.059 --> 00:37:44.760
I really think it's beautiful and I don't love the way it's

761
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:45.840
actually used now.

762
00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:49.739
Do you remember that exchange in a Christmas carol, where the

763
00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:54.719
doctor gives space reasons why the shark is carved by Catherine

764
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:59.519
Jenkins seeing and the fish start biting him to make him stop

765
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:03.960
doing it because the real reason is the sharks love the singing.

766
00:38:04.019 --> 00:38:08.219
And here, I just think the worst thing that you could possibly do

767
00:38:08.219 --> 00:38:12.960
is space reasons to explain away how the singing works.

768
00:38:13.019 --> 00:38:15.059
The singing works because it's magic.

769
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:19.139
The singing works because it's a bunch of people together, all

770
00:38:19.139 --> 00:38:22.860
doing something and it's meant to placate this sort of horrible

771
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:27.900
thing and it works because we've all joined together despite our

772
00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:29.280
different backgrounds and stuff like that.

773
00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:32.639
We've all brought something to sacrifice, and that has an effect

774
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:35.579
on the monster, which is also magical.

775
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:36.239
Yeah.

776
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:44.219
And it ties in with the concept of sentimental value as currency

777
00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:48.900
because all of these people are singing with sentiment.

778
00:38:49.019 --> 00:38:52.559
You know, they're singing because they love the grandfather, you

779
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:53.159
know what I mean?

780
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:58.440
And they think that this is what the grandfather wants.

781
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:04.079
And both Moffatt and RTD to this point had both been critical of

782
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.440
religion, but also praising religion, like in gridlock.

783
00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:08.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

784
00:39:08.460 --> 00:39:08.820
You know?

785
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:12.539
And so I think what it sort of makes clear is, you know, Doctor

786
00:39:12.539 --> 00:39:14.880
Who is not anti-religion.

787
00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:19.019
And sometimes people pick up on stories like this or, you know, the

788
00:39:19.019 --> 00:39:21.900
whole plot with the silence and kind of point to Doctor Who and

789
00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:23.760
you know, Doctor Who's saying religion is bad.

790
00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:24.840
It's like, no, no, no.

791
00:39:24.900 --> 00:39:28.019
You know, Doctor Who is saying it's a pile of good things and a

792
00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:28.800
pile of bad things.

793
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:30.300
And when it's good, it's beautiful.

794
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:36.000
Do you remember that exchange where the doctor says to Clara, they

795
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:41.280
think that this is where all life in the universe came from, and

796
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:44.940
she kind of pins him, tries to pin him down on whether it's true

797
00:39:44.940 --> 00:39:45.360
or not.

798
00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:47.340
And he says it's a lovely story.

799
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:52.019
And so that does introduce the idea of like religion as a source

800
00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:52.800
of truth or not.

801
00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:58.500
Yeah And, you know, when they're over with the creature, we think

802
00:39:58.500 --> 00:40:02.039
is the grandfather at the time. and the tenor is still desperately

803
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.739
singing to try and put him to sleep and the doctor sort of sits

804
00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:05.400
down in front of him.

805
00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:08.880
And the subtext of the conversation is basically like, you didn't

806
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:11.579
do anything wrong, but you can't do anything now.

807
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:12.360
I've got this.

808
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:13.739
You're okay.

809
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:18.480
And he, you know, he doesn't do it by destroying the guy's belief

810
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.760
he doesn't do it by tearing him down and saying, you know, you're

811
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:21.360
a stupid idiot.

812
00:40:21.420 --> 00:40:26.039
He respects the effort and belief that this guy has put into his

813
00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:26.940
life.

814
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:31.260
And it's it's not his fault that he's been lied to and deceived.

815
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:31.679
Yeah.

816
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:34.019
And it's not his fault that he's believed the lie.

817
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.900
The doctor's just like, no, I will handle this.

818
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.820
You know, you get out of here to save yourself.

819
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:42.360
And it's really a lovely and sweet moment.

820
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.960
It's like so much of this episode, I think it goes against

821
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:46.980
expectations.

822
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:51.300
You know, there are stories where we have, you know, evil gods or

823
00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:54.000
things that aren't gods and the doctor decries them and what have

824
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:54.239
you.

825
00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:58.380
But here, I think he recognises the differences this guy's

826
00:40:58.380 --> 00:40:59.579
motivation is pure.

827
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:03.360
I actually cried watching that little moment this time because

828
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:06.000
this guy basically has no character, you know.

829
00:41:06.059 --> 00:41:10.739
His whole life is this, and it's all we see him doing, and it's

830
00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:11.400
been destroyed.

831
00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:15.360
And in just a few lines between them, there's acknowledgement

832
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:16.980
there's respect, there's acceptance.

833
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.579
Yeah, this story is a lot cleverer than I gave it credit for going

834
00:41:20.579 --> 00:41:20.820
in.

835
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:23.579
And also, it's not any kind of singing.

836
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:26.519
I mean, they're not all getting together and singing love in the

837
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:28.260
1st degree drama.

838
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:29.940
It's a hymn, a long song.

839
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:31.679
And so it sort of plays into that.

840
00:41:31.739 --> 00:41:34.139
And I think it's quite beautiful, actually.

841
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:42.239
Like, I'm an atheist, but I sometimes, jealousy is not the right

842
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:42.539
word.

843
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:48.599
But I sometimes wish I had...

844
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:49.679
The certainty.

845
00:41:49.739 --> 00:41:54.300
The sort of quiet faith and serenity that I see, for instance, that

846
00:41:54.300 --> 00:41:59.099
my grandmother's had who were religious, you know, and I, it's not

847
00:41:59.099 --> 00:42:01.199
it's something I've decided not to pursue because I know I

848
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:02.639
wouldn't really be believing in it.

849
00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:07.739
But I think this story highlights that that is possible and that

850
00:42:07.739 --> 00:42:08.820
is a net positive.

851
00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:13.440
But it does it without, it does it without judgement.

852
00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:15.420
It doesn't say it's a good thing or a bad thing.

853
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:17.340
It says it's a good thing for these people and it works for these

854
00:42:17.340 --> 00:42:17.760
people.

855
00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:20.519
Yeah, I mean, it's like gridlock, isn't it?

856
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:23.099
It is like gridlock, which has prophecies and all sorts of things

857
00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:24.059
that come true.

858
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.639
It has the people singing a Christian hymn together.

859
00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:31.500
And the doctor's reaction is, you know, this is just here to

860
00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:34.380
prevent you from doing anything about the situation that you find

861
00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:35.760
yourself in.

862
00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:40.260
But Martha's response is that this is kind of an expression of

863
00:42:40.260 --> 00:42:45.840
human solidarity that these people use to sustain themselves.

864
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:51.000
And so the religious trappings of this, and the fact that it all

865
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:58.320
works via magic, I think, kind of raises those questions without

866
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:01.260
sort of properly answering them, and that's a good thing.

867
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.800
Also, the trappings of religion can have their own social effect

868
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:06.239
even without the religion.

869
00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:09.239
So people gain together who never go to church, but go to church

870
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:13.559
on Christmas Eve to enjoy the carols and the hymns and that, that

871
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.739
can have its own cohesive effect and there's nothing more social.

872
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:19.380
You know, the great social activities, people singing together.

873
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:32.820
Can we talk about the end?

874
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:35.099
So the climax.

875
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:35.579
Is that all right?

876
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:36.780
Oh, so did you want to...

877
00:43:37.619 --> 00:43:40.199
No, I'm just enjoying this discussion of religion.

878
00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:42.179
I think it's really interesting.

879
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:46.199
I'm always reminded of Major Kira on Deep Space 9 and that

880
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:50.159
performance and the way that character was crafted by none of

881
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:54.239
visitor and the writers, in that she had that absolute faith and

882
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.059
certainty in that grounding in that character over those 7 years.

883
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.039
That's a performance that I always look to.

884
00:43:59.099 --> 00:44:01.019
But the stuff you were saying, Brendan, yeah.

885
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:02.639
It's quite affecting.

886
00:44:02.699 --> 00:44:07.320
I think there's a lot here that you can miss if you just take it

887
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:08.159
at surface level.

888
00:44:08.219 --> 00:44:13.079
But let's go on to the actual climax of this whole thing, which is

889
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:16.559
giving Matt Smith a huge speech.

890
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:21.480
I don't like his delivery of this speech at all.

891
00:44:21.539 --> 00:44:26.039
And I guess, what are we trying to do?

892
00:44:26.099 --> 00:44:29.820
Are we trying to recreate the speech from the Pandoraca opens

893
00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:33.480
which I think is a remarkable performance.

894
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:35.340
Like it's really quite extraordinary.

895
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:38.519
It's rainy, there's flashing lights ahead.

896
00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:40.739
He's got this big microphone thing.

897
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.239
He's talking as if he's addressing a massive crowd of people and

898
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:47.400
he does it in all sorts of surprising ways.

899
00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:49.860
And I think it works really well.

900
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:53.219
It's because it's in Pandora Opens.

901
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.940
It's a dramatic speech, which is given a grandstanding delivery by

902
00:44:56.940 --> 00:44:59.579
Matt, and this is a grandstanding speech.

903
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:00.480
Yeah, yeah.

904
00:45:00.539 --> 00:45:03.780
Also, I think that, you know, the Pandora speech is so incredibly

905
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:08.219
well directed as well with all those shots from above and stuff

906
00:45:08.219 --> 00:45:08.579
like that.

907
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:11.280
Here, he's like on a studio set.

908
00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:17.039
It's much more constrained and the speech, I think, is a bit

909
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:18.119
crummy.

910
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:23.039
Like it is a little bit kind of, I don't know, it's

911
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:23.880
philosophical.

912
00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:28.139
It's hard to know how a character would, like, what does he want?

913
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:29.760
you know, like it's, I don't know.

914
00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:31.380
In the Pandorica speech, right?

915
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:34.980
He's desperate to scare these people off despite the fact that he

916
00:45:34.980 --> 00:45:39.659
has no plan and no weapons and these are all of his enemies and

917
00:45:39.659 --> 00:45:39.900
stuff.

918
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:42.360
So there's a character thing to do.

919
00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:47.099
Here, he's just kind of saying a lot of platitudes and I just

920
00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:49.559
don't think he pulls it off.

921
00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:53.400
He's saying it so that, you know, ultimately it will fail, so that

922
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.840
Clara will come.

923
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:55.860
That's the reason why.

924
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:58.500
And that makes the speech fail.

925
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.519
But we've talked about this, Nathan, the fact that we're now at

926
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:06.780
the point where the writers are writing moments for Matt.

927
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:09.480
And so here's a big speech for him rather than the Pandorica, where

928
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:11.099
site yet unseen.

929
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:12.000
Yeah, yeah.

930
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:18.420
And I just think that also without his team of River Amy and Rory

931
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:22.800
in this 2nd half of the season, they're trying to give Matt these

932
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.679
moments to sort of carry the episode.

933
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:30.239
I think he works so much better when he's got the Paternoster game

934
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:33.539
with him because he's not having, like, he can bounce off

935
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.519
different things and come up with different things and it's much

936
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:37.260
more organic when it's just him and Clara.

937
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.039
Yeah.

938
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:41.099
Then he has to carry the workload and then just making it about

939
00:46:41.099 --> 00:46:43.679
his performance and what he can do.

940
00:46:43.739 --> 00:46:46.320
Oh, this is a Matt Smith thing, whether he's twirling around or

941
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:46.619
whatever.

942
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:50.039
And I think, and I don't say this in a horrible way.

943
00:46:50.099 --> 00:46:54.179
But this is the moment for me that Matt begins to go off the boil

944
00:46:54.179 --> 00:46:56.880
in terms of what comes next.

945
00:46:56.940 --> 00:47:01.079
I just think I kind of begin to go, oh, it's a Matt Smith thing.

946
00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:04.380
Matt Smith thing in episodes coming up because he has to carry

947
00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:06.539
much more of the action because there's only the 2 of them.

948
00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:09.119
I'm not saying that's a bad thing because I think Matt's

949
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:09.599
brilliant.

950
00:47:09.659 --> 00:47:11.219
But back to this.

951
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:13.440
This is, I totally agree with you.

952
00:47:13.500 --> 00:47:14.400
It doesn't quite work.

953
00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:19.440
Yeah, I think this is the moment for me as well, where I start to

954
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:21.659
think he's not pulling it off.

955
00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:23.760
And I don't think it's entirely Matt's fault.

956
00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:25.440
I don't think it's a good speech.

957
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:28.619
It's just the fact he doesn't have Amy and Rory and River.

958
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:31.019
That sort of was the nucleus of his performance.

959
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:33.480
And now he's having to he's having to strike out on his own.

960
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:35.039
But it's what you were saying, Nathan.

961
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:36.420
I don't think the writings all that good.

962
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:39.539
It feels a bit fan servicey, this kind of speech.

963
00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:41.039
Oh yeah, he's talking about that bit.

964
00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:42.539
They should have just gone further.

965
00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:45.719
You know, I've walked in universes where Stephen and Dodo acted

966
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:47.820
like simpletons while playing hopscotch.

967
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.099
Stuff like that.

968
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:51.780
But it all felt a bit lame.

969
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:52.800
Yeah, yeah.

970
00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:55.860
I think it needed it needed precision.

971
00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.099
Like, I walked in universes where the laws and physics had gone

972
00:47:59.099 --> 00:47:59.460
mad.

973
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:02.760
No, I've walked in universes where the earth died in flame.

974
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:04.380
Yeah.

975
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:06.840
Perhaps what it needed was that Stephen Muffin needed to come in

976
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.900
and actually rewrite this heavily and I don't think that's

977
00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:10.619
necessarily happened.

978
00:48:10.739 --> 00:48:11.280
Yeah.

979
00:48:11.340 --> 00:48:12.780
It was almost worse.

980
00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:14.219
Oh, yeah.

981
00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:15.539
It was almost worse.

982
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:17.400
Something about Stephen and Dodo.

983
00:48:17.460 --> 00:48:18.239
No?

984
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:19.380
Not the speech.

985
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:21.420
The speech was the same in the draft.

986
00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:23.519
In the draft, it worked.

987
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:26.340
In the draft, that destroyed Akaten.

988
00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:30.780
And it was Stephen Moffat who said, no, this is Clara's 1st trip.

989
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:33.420
Clara needs to be integral to the solution.

990
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:38.039
And the leaf had already been invented as part of the thing.

991
00:48:38.099 --> 00:48:41.579
And the whole thing with the leaf was Clara wouldn't give it up.

992
00:48:41.639 --> 00:48:43.139
So it gave away the ring instead.

993
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:48.119
But she still had the leaf at the end. you know, and then Stephen

994
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:49.800
Moffatt said to Neil.

995
00:48:49.860 --> 00:48:52.860
It's like, what if it looks like it works, but then Clara has to

996
00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:55.260
come over and use the leaf and explain what the leaf is.

997
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:58.260
And he's like, of course, why didn't I think of that?

998
00:48:58.320 --> 00:48:59.219
And we get that.

999
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:00.900
And that's the successful part of the ending.

1000
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:01.679
Yeah.

1001
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:02.039
Yeah.

1002
00:49:02.099 --> 00:49:03.900
It really is the beast below, isn't it?

1003
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:07.139
Because Amy has the same function at the end.

1004
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:09.480
But without the doctor being a bloody moron.

1005
00:49:10.019 --> 00:49:11.880
But yes, yes.

1006
00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:14.760
And I think that's why I like it more than the beast below because

1007
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:17.460
it's not, oh, that's big cool.

1008
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:22.920
See, my problem with the beast below is Amy's solution is clever

1009
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:26.159
but it's diminished by the fact that the doctor can't see the

1010
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:26.519
obvious.

1011
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:30.599
Whereas here, with everything we know, what the doctor has

1012
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:31.860
suggested should work.

1013
00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:37.079
And it doesn't because the creature is infinite.

1014
00:49:37.139 --> 00:49:41.760
But you know, the doctor thinks, oh, I can engorge it and make it

1015
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:44.760
explode, but it's like, no, no, no, your experiences are still

1016
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:45.480
finite.

1017
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:47.880
And Clara provides the infinite.

1018
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:52.800
And so the doctor's failure is a noble heroic failure rather than

1019
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.559
a failure of failing to understand the situation.

1020
00:49:55.619 --> 00:50:00.000
But we're told that it eats your soul and that your soul is made

1021
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.079
up of stories.

1022
00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:05.400
And so we feed it on things that have sentimental value and stuff

1023
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:07.440
like that because they're our stories.

1024
00:50:07.500 --> 00:50:08.940
That's what our soul is about.

1025
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:11.579
And we're all very scared of it.

1026
00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:16.079
But Matt gives his big speech and then what, he's fine?

1027
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:18.480
Well, he is time lord.

1028
00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:20.159
But do you know what I mean?

1029
00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:24.300
They're selling us some danger here that just never eventuates.

1030
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:27.539
He gives his big speech and then, you know, Jenna comes on and

1031
00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:29.219
says, you know, move out of the way.

1032
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.059
I'll fix this.

1033
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:32.280
And she gives a better speech too.

1034
00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:36.119
You're right, Todd, in that because this speech has to fail.

1035
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:38.340
It's not the climax of the episode, right?

1036
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:40.559
So he can't give a better speech than her.

1037
00:50:40.619 --> 00:50:44.039
She has to give a better speech and perhaps it needs to be more

1038
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:48.719
heartfelt as well because it's about all of the things that never

1039
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:53.039
happened, all of the days that her mother never got to

1040
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:53.460
experience.

1041
00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:58.320
And so it makes you wonder why they don't just keep grandfather in

1042
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:00.960
check by basically reciting their life stories.

1043
00:51:01.019 --> 00:51:02.400
That's all it needs to.

1044
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:08.219
And like this is not the sort of thing that is going to hold up to

1045
00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:11.039
even sort of fairly gentle scrutiny, I think.

1046
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:15.780
But like as far as the story goes.

1047
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.880
It's not clear what's at stake.

1048
00:51:17.940 --> 00:51:22.440
Is Matt sacrificing his life for the sake of everyone else and

1049
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:25.380
Clara comes in and stops him from doing that.

1050
00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:31.260
But no one seems to be under threat at all.

1051
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:35.639
It's just not clear what danger grandfather poses.

1052
00:51:35.699 --> 00:51:37.559
Can you fry something for me?

1053
00:51:37.619 --> 00:51:41.099
Like when they do dispense with grandfather, does that mean that

1054
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:42.659
whole son's gone and so...

1055
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:43.559
Yeah, I wanted that too.

1056
00:51:43.619 --> 00:51:46.440
The whole system just collapses and nobody can live there.

1057
00:51:46.500 --> 00:51:49.380
Please, the laws of unintended concerts.

1058
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:51.900
It does disappear, doesn't it?

1059
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:52.980
And it is completely dark.

1060
00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:53.760
Yeah.

1061
00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:58.199
And from what I can see, it was never considered a problem in the

1062
00:51:58.199 --> 00:51:58.739
scripting state.

1063
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:02.579
It's not like there's a missing scene with the doctor saying, well

1064
00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:04.559
you know, he just took over the sun.

1065
00:52:04.619 --> 00:52:06.659
It's a normal son that he was living on.

1066
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:10.019
It's like, no, it's gone and we just go back to London.

1067
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:13.380
No more days sunbathing for Dory.

1068
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:16.380
Do you remember that thing where?

1069
00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:20.880
You know, the doctor tries to go, oh, you know, I've seen bigger.

1070
00:52:20.940 --> 00:52:23.099
And Clara goes, what, really?

1071
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:24.719
He said, no, this is massive.

1072
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.199
That was brilliant. is really great.

1073
00:52:28.260 --> 00:52:31.980
I mean, I think it has to be a gas giant, isn't it?

1074
00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:32.880
It's got rings.

1075
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:33.960
Yeah, that makes sense.

1076
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:34.800
So it goes away.

1077
00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:38.579
It's still like, you know, like gravitational collapse, but we're

1078
00:52:38.579 --> 00:52:41.579
absolutely asking the wrong questions about the thing, I think.

1079
00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:44.219
I think, but I do think it is worth asking.

1080
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:46.739
We don't know what threat's being posed here, like what the

1081
00:52:46.739 --> 00:52:47.159
problem is.

1082
00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:48.659
There is word peril.

1083
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:52.260
Mary says that grandfather will get out and feed on the souls of

1084
00:52:52.260 --> 00:52:55.139
the 7 planets and then go forward through the universe and that's

1085
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:56.280
what one of the old songs says.

1086
00:52:56.340 --> 00:52:57.119
Yeah.

1087
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.900
But, you know, I think it's while the vigil are going, and while

1088
00:53:00.900 --> 00:53:02.159
the song's going...

1089
00:53:02.219 --> 00:53:03.659
So it's a bit hard to hit.

1090
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.719
And this is why people don't like it because the stakes are not

1091
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.719
defined and so it feels a bit silly and it's all being held in

1092
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.480
check by singing and so it feels a bit silly.

1093
00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:16.500
It's all shot against green screen and so it feels a bit silly, et

1094
00:53:16.500 --> 00:53:16.920
cetera.

1095
00:53:16.980 --> 00:53:18.000
But it's not.

1096
00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:18.420
I like it.

1097
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:22.139
I like it too, but it's what Russell says about Zog monsters on

1098
00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:22.860
the planet Zog.

1099
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.780
Yeah, Dog Monster, isn't she?

1100
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:26.340
And the thing is...

1101
00:53:26.340 --> 00:53:32.280
I think you can get away with it occasionally.

1102
00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:34.739
And I think we do get away with here.

1103
00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:38.039
The 1st half has the same confidence as last week.

1104
00:53:38.099 --> 00:53:40.920
It's like, yep, we are putting 20 different aliens on screen for

1105
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.559
you and you're going to enjoy it and that one has lights in his

1106
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:47.219
face and this one barks and rents out mopeds.

1107
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:52.260
Actually, it reminds me a bit of snake dance and we, you know, we

1108
00:53:52.260 --> 00:53:53.880
made a snake dance joke earlier.

1109
00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:54.960
Do you know what it reminds me?

1110
00:53:55.019 --> 00:53:55.739
Oh, Dragonfire.

1111
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:56.280
Yes.

1112
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:57.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1113
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:01.559
It's it's a criticism we made of Eric Saywood back in the day was

1114
00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:03.599
that he wanted everything to be really sensible.

1115
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:06.480
And it was like, even Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, who was like, I

1116
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:09.239
don't want silliness and I want science, still writes, let's

1117
00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:12.960
materialise the TARDIS and underwater and open the door. right.

1118
00:54:13.019 --> 00:54:16.139
Let's get out of a time loop by acting it out.

1119
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:17.460
Yeah, yeah.

1120
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:21.059
Those are brilliant big bonkers ideas, which is what Doctor Who

1121
00:54:21.059 --> 00:54:22.500
needs, and that's what we have here.

1122
00:54:22.619 --> 00:54:26.099
And, you know, with the whole, so are they all dead now?

1123
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:28.199
It's like, nah, something happened and they're fine.

1124
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:33.300
You know, we know they're fine or else it's a matter of, oh, they

1125
00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:34.320
wanted me to have my ring back.

1126
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:36.659
Yes, because they're all dead, Clara.

1127
00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:39.659
We blew up a sun, Morty.

1128
00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:44.940
I think getting the ring back from all of them is a beautiful

1129
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:45.420
moment.

1130
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:46.139
Yes.

1131
00:54:46.139 --> 00:54:49.860
Maybe that's the rings of Akatown.

1132
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.199
Or the keys of marinace.

1133
00:54:52.260 --> 00:54:54.239
Or the hats of the archi man drive.

1134
00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:57.480
I like the fact that this is the 2nd episode in a road that's

1135
00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:58.920
concerned with ringing the title.

1136
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:02.639
What will next week then?

1137
00:55:03.059 --> 00:55:06.239
It's so nice to all Matt's little moment with the beano.

1138
00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:07.260
Yeah, yeah.

1139
00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:10.860
That remind me of Delta and the Bannerman with Murray.

1140
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:11.400
Yes.

1141
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:12.000
Yeah, yeah.

1142
00:55:12.059 --> 00:55:16.139
I've got the dog 2 magazine, 1981 summer special, by the way.

1143
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:17.460
I should have been reading.

1144
00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:21.900
It's got a profile of this new producer, JNT.

1145
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:26.340
And I think an examination of the other rooms in the Tartars.

1146
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:27.420
Oh my god.

1147
00:55:27.539 --> 00:55:29.400
Nothing's changed.

1148
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:34.260
At the end, does Clara realised that the doctor was at the grave?

1149
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:34.860
Yes.

1150
00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:35.400
Yeah, yeah.

1151
00:55:35.460 --> 00:55:36.659
Does it make her suspicious?

1152
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:38.039
I can't remember.

1153
00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:38.760
I just wrote it down.

1154
00:55:38.820 --> 00:55:39.420
Yeah.

1155
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:44.699
She asks him about it and he says you remind me of someone I

1156
00:55:44.699 --> 00:55:46.019
someone I lost, someone who died.

1157
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:49.980
And her response is, well, no, I'm Clara.

1158
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:52.380
If I'm travelling, I'm not a replacement.

1159
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:53.820
And he's like, no, no, no.

1160
00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:55.619
It's, look, it's fine.

1161
00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:57.539
It's just that that's, I had to check.

1162
00:55:57.599 --> 00:55:58.860
And she's like, okay.

1163
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:02.820
So it's actually a refreshing moment because, yeah, he didn't tell

1164
00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:05.039
Amy about the flesh pregnancy thing.

1165
00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:09.360
He didn't tell Amy that her house didn't make sense, but here he's

1166
00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:12.539
questioned up front and he goes, you know, this is the situation.

1167
00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:15.420
And he does basically tell her everything he currently. knows

1168
00:56:15.420 --> 00:56:19.440
about it, except that she was in another time, but Clara can

1169
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:20.099
probably guess at that.

1170
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:26.219
I think, though, it is at this point made very clear to the doctor

1171
00:56:26.219 --> 00:56:30.780
that Clara is just a normal person.

1172
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:32.880
He's seen her childhood, he's seen the funeral.

1173
00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:35.940
He's met her, he's heard her speak.

1174
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:39.599
She tells him that she's not those other people or that other

1175
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:45.480
person, who he remembers, but he still sort of persists.

1176
00:56:45.539 --> 00:56:49.500
And so it's another one of the Moffatt hiding the resolution in

1177
00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:50.639
plain sight things.

1178
00:56:50.699 --> 00:56:55.260
Turns out she's just completely normal and in no way impossible

1179
00:56:55.260 --> 00:56:57.840
and it's just in the season finale.

1180
00:56:57.900 --> 00:56:58.860
She does something remarkable.

1181
00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:00.900
Yeah, but it's just her.

1182
00:57:22.980 --> 00:57:26.340
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1183
00:57:26.460 --> 00:57:30.960
We'll be back next week for the best of Ultravox in Cold War.

1184
00:57:31.019 --> 00:57:34.860
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1185
00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:37.260
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1186
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:40.800
at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website

1187
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:43.800
FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

1188
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:48.239
podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody InterTara, maximum power, and untitled

1189
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:49.139
Star Trek project.

1190
00:57:49.260 --> 00:57:53.940
Until next time, remember to respect the Todd experience, because

1191
00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:56.280
one day, it might just happen to you.

1192
00:57:56.340 --> 00:57:59.099
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1193
00:57:59.159 --> 00:57:59.880
Good night.

1194
00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:01.019
See you soon.

1195
00:58:01.079 --> 00:58:01.980
Good night.

1196
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:11.519
That was Flight Through Entirety, sir, and Todd Bealby, Nathan

1197
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:14.579
Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and Brendan Jones, theme arrangement by

1198
00:58:14.579 --> 00:58:15.480
Cameron Lamb.

1199
00:58:15.539 --> 00:58:19.019
This episode, there's an apostrophe, was recorded on the 29th of

1200
00:58:19.019 --> 00:58:22.199
May 2022 and released on the 11th of September.

1201
00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:28.079
We all enjoyed the Rings of Ackerson, but due to its eccentric

1202
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:29.820
ideas about planetary physics.

1203
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:32.940
Please don't mention it to American astrophysicist and Notorious

1204
00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:34.679
internet pedant Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

1205
00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:36.840
Seriously, we'll never hear the end of it.

1206
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.659
But the doctor is basically a giver.

1207
00:58:45.719 --> 00:58:48.780
He gives people these experiences where all the other grandfather

1208
00:58:48.780 --> 00:58:49.500
does his take.

1209
00:58:49.619 --> 00:58:50.699
Yeah, yeah.

1210
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:52.500
And they're both impossibly old.

1211
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:54.300
So he's a giver, not a taker.

1212
00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:58.199
He's a given on a taker. that's right God, we're filthy today.

1213
00:58:58.619 --> 00:59:00.539
We.

1214
00:59:00.539 --> 00:59:03.840
Just wait until you hear what he said about Celia Emery.

1215
00:59:03.900 --> 00:59:08.039
And if Nathan had to cut it, that could be...

1216
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:10.139
She was fantastic in that scene at the end.

1217
00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:11.400
Yeah.

1218
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:12.179
It's a little girl.

1219
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:12.900
Just heartbreaking.

1220
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:14.159
They should have cast her as merry.

1221
00:59:17.460 --> 00:59:20.579
I felt really wistful with that mention.