Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast that pays for its yearly holidays on
Ackerton with used pizza boxes and empty wine bottles.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Todd, and I'm Peter.
Well, the doctor is taking his new friend Clara off on her 1st big
space adventure as part of his ongoing application process to
become her official stalker.
It's the end of the world's new Earth, Planet of the Ude, and the
Beast Below, all rolled into one.
Welcome to the Rings of Ackerton.
I don't hate this.
I don't hate this at all.
I don't think I hate it either.
Um, it still has some of the problems.
It had for me in 2013, but I enjoyed it a lot more this time.
I actually think it's really strong and I loathed it.
Yeah. 2013 and it wasn't on this rewatch.
It was on a previous one that I actually thought, no, this is
really good.
And I love the way it sort of links in with the last episode, which
also I thought was pretty weak 1st time through, but now I like
both of these, like 7.5 to 8 for that one and this one definitely
an 8 for me.
Sorry, I'm getting it all my hearts.
But no, I really like these as a one-two punch at the beginning.
I think there's some really great character work for Clara.
Yep.
You know, the whole leaf thing between the 2 episodes and all the
great intelligence last episode and the woman in the shop giving
her the message.
And I think Matt's great in both of these too.
I have a few problems with it, I think.
And one of them, I think you'll be astonished to learn, is
something to do with Matt's performance, but I think this is
better than I thought it was initially as well.
El Sandra says, in her review of this episode, or maybe the
previous one, that series 7 B is generally good, but there's one
episode in which it falls down and that one episode is basically
different for everyone.
And I do think, yeah, I do think that Rings of Ackerton is not
widely liked.
No, it is exceptionally maligned and I can't quite work out why
because even though I think it is a little bit thin and
lightweight in a lot of ways, I don't know how you could
vehemently not like it.
I mean, to give you some context to that, I did the 1st 50 years
Paul, forgot 2 magazine.
And this came in the bottom 10 stories.
From memory, it was like number 233 out of 241 and that just
beggars belief.
It is simply not that bad.
What do you think the problem might be?
Well, on my initial watch?
Todd Alert was like small children, small children who sing, like
doubly so.
And, you know, last week we had some child actors in as well.
Oh, tell us about that.
Probably couldn't find them.
They're back.
They're back for the best episode of the season.
Nightmare of Silver.
God, that's a terrible.
So that's interesting for another time.
But for me, I was clouded by the fact that there was this child
actor and we're having singing to resolve things and that just put
me off and I was just over it.
But I actually think this thing's very beautiful.
Yeah.
And I think she's actually a very good little actress.
You know who she is, don't you?
No, no.
She is Amelia Jones, who is the lead in last year's Oscar winning
film coda.
Oh, well, I'm really glad she's had success because I think she's
wonderful as well.
She's really good and she's also a nice singer.
Yeah, I think she'd been acting since she was eight.
But she's continued to work, unlike some of our favourite child
actors from the Moffatt era.
I think she is really strong as well.
I wonder, though, whether the problem is that this isn't science
fiction in any real sense of the word, and it does seem to come
from someone new to the show.
It does a whole heap of things that Doctor Who doesn't normally
do.
And so maybe it's the weird fantasy element of it that put people
off.
Two things put me off on the 1st viewing.
It's very strangely paced.
Like, it's it's kind of top heavy and then not much happens in the
middle and then it's a result. kind of peters out in the middle
and then at the end.
Yeah, and the other thing that put me off at the time. was, and
you see, this is so stupid and I was going to say, oh, this is an
example of immaturity.
I was 30, dear listener.
So was Mary.
I thought the creature in the glass cage was a draconian and it
wasn't a draconian and that made me really cross.
Wow, which is just stupid.
It's just stupid, but it even looks like it's wearing draconian
stuff.
All right, grandad.
Don't look askant sitting there on your throne behind glass.
Eyes can be seen mouth computing.
I went into it this time, not expecting to dislike it, but just
knowing I disliked it last time, and I thought, I'm not going to
focus on those elements I didn't like.
I'm just going to sort of let it wash over me.
And there's just something so charming about it.
It's like, the doctor often says, you know, I don't go looking for
trouble.
I don't go looking for trouble.
I travel to see things.
And this is a story that actually goes, no, for the 1st 15 minutes
the doctor is just here because this is a lovely, beautiful place
to be and he wants to show Clara something nice.
And I think that is, It's responsible for the weird pacing, but
it's also a really great change of pace.
I wonder if the reason it's so poorly received is because it comes
between Bells of St.
John, which we said last week. is very slight, but very confident
and brisk, and enjoyable, and Cold War, which I know a lot of
people have problems with, and I can understand.
But at the same time, has an nice warrior and an all-star cast
like has got Cunningham and David Warner and Tobias Menzies, Prince
Charles.
Prince Charles.
It's the 2 Prince Philips.
Yes.
But I think for that reason and the fact that it's a bit weird
people judge it harsher.
I think it would be a production thing as well because coming with
the fantasy element, it's very green screen heavy and Doctor Who
is not usually that.
And so it has kind of shades of the Phantom menace to us, and I
think it might turn off a few people.
But I like it.
I really like the fact that it's trying to be alien. and
charmingly so.
It's got that Star Wars cantina kind of vibe.
And, you know, it reminds you of every Star Trek Voyager
marketplace that they that they ever visited.
It's really interesting better you talk about Star Wars because
yes, that it's got the cantina.
But I also think, you know, when they're in that arena and sitting
down, It's sort of like the attack of the clones, like, yeah, going
to watch something.
Yeah, or Tsung, can't say, with Jerry Ryan beating the crap out of
the rock in Voyager.
I don't think I've watched that.
You should.
But if we go back to the beginning, The beginning is the doctor
seeing how Clara's parents met with the leaf and the fact that
he's almost run over by a car.
Shades of rose and yeah.
And then the doctor's really creepily watching on Clara.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that is a little bit of a problem.
And Moffat doesn't want, look, he gets to introduce, what, 3
companions, right?
And it's only by the 3rd go that he's confident enough to just say
he or she is.
This is the new companion.
She's going to come into the Tartars and say it's bigger on
the...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whereas here he's got this huge kind of structure around the
appearance of Clara in that she's appeared twice before there's a
mystery about her.
And so what we get is the doctor sort of creepily going back and
investigating her backstory.
How can she possibly just be Clara Oswald from 2013, age 24?
What's kind of going on there?
And I don't much like the fact that it's the 2nd companion in a
row that he meets as a child.
And in fact, the prequel scene thing is entirely that, isn't it?
Yeah, the thing is, from a narrative point of view, he's coming
off the back of paranoia with Amy and Rory and how they were used
against him.
But taken in isolation.
And that's the thing.
This is a reset for the series.
Amy and Rory are never mentioned in these 1st 2 episodes.
So if you come to this new, you're absolutely like, why is he
doing this?
Yeah.
You know, um, I think Matt Smith being Matt Smith offsets some of
the sinister element of it?
like when he gets hit in the head with the ball and jumps into a
Venusian karate stance.
But at the same time, it is a repeat of what we've had before.
We do get one big benefit from it, though, which is Clara's hot
short dad.
Yeah, he is hot, isn't he?
It's a shame he won't be back for time of the doctor for some
reason.
Yeah.
I think... homophobic.
I think that it is Moffat doing the thing where instead of just
having a flashback, so we're giving Clara some backstory.
We're getting to know who she is in one sense.
And given that this is the way the episode's going to resolve
itself.
We kind of need it.
But we sort of just need it so that we know her better.
But because we have a time machine, we can make the flashbacks not
be flashbacks at all.
We could just have the doctor going back into the past and
experiencing them in real time.
And it's clearly what he's doing between dropping her off at the
end of Bells of St.
John and picking her up again at 7 PM the following day.
And another thing that I like about it is that we see Clara
actually really looking forward to seeing him again, and she's
sitting on the stairs waiting for him to arrive, whereas
previously she'd sort of rather cooly dismissed him at the end of
the episode.
It's that modern day online romance thing where you have to be
cool.
And so even though you really want to hear from someone again or
go out for a date.
Don't text them too soon.
And so, you know, the sort of you present an artifice to the world
but really you're kind of keen on it.
Yeah.
But I do think, like, you know, as much as, you know, we can bring
that up as being a bit of a point, I do think that it's great that
this is continuing her character of development.
I mean, the next 2 episodes, which were filmed before these, are
just so generic and don't link to anything in the season.
I think they really suffer because of it.
Whereas this, I think it actually helps the ending or with the
whole leaf thing really brings this story together when it could
have just collapsed in upon itself.
I think, too, that what they've done too is crafter story kind of
around this leaf.
So it's a story where... should have been rubber.
Oh my god, a single leaf fell and a Clara grew.
But we go to a planet where sentimental value is value.
And there's some sort of hand wavy thing, but essentially it's
kind of magic, isn't it?
Yeah.
The thing is, I don't mind that.
Like Doctor Who has done psychometry before with Professor Clegg
for instance, in Implanted the Spiders.
Something I do have a little bit of a problem with watching
through this time is the doctor is wearing Amy's specs.
And then when they go to get the space bike, he's like, oh, no, I
don't have anything of sentimental value to give away.
And I don't think it's a conscious character moment, but I do kind
of go, at the same time, is this the doctor going, okay, how far
are you willing to go in travels?
Like, you can't, the universe isn't a free ride kind of thing.
But I think if that were deliberate, it would have been cooled
out.
And it does, it does mean we get the lovely moment where she gets
the ring back at the end.
I was saying there's probably a practical reason to that in that
he probably wears them in hide or something like that.
Yeah.
Can we talk about his costume?
Because this is the 1st time that he's fully in the new costume.
Yeah, with the Westcoat.
Yeah, so we see him choose the purple coat thing.
Purple.
I actually have to say that I don't mind it and I think he looks
pretty good.
It's a shame that that sort of knee length kind of jacket thing is
just 80s Doctor Who doctors all basically have that until...
It's the tele movies idea of what the doctor should address.
Yeah, it really is.
And I think here, where suddenly he has a waistcoat and a watch
chain and stuff like that, this is when it just gets stupid.
I think it becomes a Doctor Who costume and I dislike it.
Reminds me of Willy Wonka.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and, you know, also, I think Tom had a short coat in his 1st
series and then he got the longer coats.
It's a change and it's a costume.
Yeah, right, totally nature.
Yeah, I mean, no one would wear what Matt wears in real life in
seasons 5 and six, but once they would have.
And that kind of works, you know, when we get the doctor come up
in the 1960s in 1963, he's wearing kind of Edwardian clothes.
And so having a doctor in 2010 where sort of clothes from the
1950s works as well, I think.
But it's also the kind of character is because you would see that
series 56 outfit, but kind of on a slightly eccentric university
boffin.
You know, that's kind of style that they would go for.
It works for the character, but this, I'm just not sure what this
is.
I quite like it, but I agree it's over designed.
And I think really, it looks much more real without the waistcoat
last week.
Yeah.
They add the waistcoat this week and it just, it heightens it too
much.
Is it Coco Chanel who said before you leave the house, look in the
mirror and take off one thing?
Yeah, it's usually my pants.
I was wondering about that ankle.
Your underpants?
Look you're modelling right now.
He's basic instincting us as we speak.
But yeah, that's the thing.
It's like, I like it as a costume and I like it as a design, but
it's also very, very heightened.
And I also feel that this console room, which I know has been
discussed a couple of episodes ago, I know pretty much everyone
loves this and it's their favourite of the new series.
I think it's better later on when they make modifications, but
even then, I think the console room is also too designed and too
precise.
But I know I'm in the minority of that.
Yes, Brendan.
Yeah, I like the Whittaker console room.
What do I know?
Do you also like the opening credits and dodo?
Yes.
And also new dodo.
Lauren Cornelius doing a great job.
But it kind of works because it works on Matt Smith.
You know what I mean?
But I totally agree.
It is a costume.
And I think what we needed, He doesn't, like, he changes the shirt
and bow tie every week.
But I think maybe what we needed is the same cut of coat, but one
or 2 different colours because, you know, as soon as Tenant gets
his blue suit, his costuming becomes a lot more interesting.
And, you know, he always varied it with like tie, no tie, et
cetera.
Matt had had different tweed coats and then he had the green great
coat, which I know not everyone liked, but it was something
different.
This, he, it's just too much the same all the way through.
They're not changing enough each week.
Purple just don't work for me.
Yeah.
I'm kind of getting a Colin Baker vibe from it.
And it's another one of those occasions where you think if only
Colin had been allowed to wear something a little bit more like
this where it is weird, it is still a costume, but it's not quite
as horrific as what he was forced to wear for his time on the
show.
You keep looking at me.
Well, it's because you came here dressed in Colin Baker's outfit
and I'm trying to be polite about it.
At the hair.
No, no, no.
I'm totally fine with these comments.
You look fabulous.
I have to say, I really like Doreen.
Lovely smile.
Yeah, adore in the moped Wrangler.
I've got that written down.
Oh, I called it the moped renter, but it...
I like a little barking, like et cetera, with carvinista, and they
could bark at each other to their heart's content.
My favourite thing about the name is that in the credits, there's
an apostrophe because it's a space name.
Because it is...
Like the hoofaloo.
But I just like the fact that it's the whole marketplace and you
get to see all sorts of different alien designs and we've seen
that a couple of times.
Yeah.
Well, I think, you know, obviously the end of the world is the
kind of locus classicus of that.
You take her to an alien place but make it really properly alien.
And he rattles off a list of alien names which I can't remember.
I like the pan Babylonians, that's one of my favourite ones, I
think.
They're Babylonians, and they're not very picky about who they're
going to have sex with. is the idea.
I like the Hooveloo.
Yeah, it's like a list of your house cleaning tasks.
I like the blue fruit.
I would have a norm on that Bluefruit.
It looks nice, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Clara doesn't like it, but the doctor clearly does.
See, it just isn't quite as good as the beef slushy in the long
game, which is, I guess, the other time that we do this.
And let's not forget the start of turn left.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I think what really works about the bluefruit for me is Clara sort
of biting into it and smiling and going, and then going, hmm.
That's something that the stools lady would say.
Greatest show, yeah.
And that leads us to a great bit where the doctor wanders off.
Yeah, yeah.
Clara's like, what?
And then she gets embroiled in the adventure.
But nothing terrible happens, like she doesn't get knocked out
like Amy does or something like that.
And then when the doctor finds... beckoned into a tent.
Red hair.
Big guys.
Do you want to see the snake in my globe?
I flutter my fingers.
It's lovely that, you know, Clara's 1st intervention on an alien
world doesn't lead to something horrible happening.
It doesn't lead to her getting locked up and it like things start
to go wrong, but the plot very clearly says, no, no, no.
Clara didn't do anything wrong.
Mary didn't do anything wrong.
It's this bastard over here who's messing things up for everyone.
And I think it's so lovely when the doctor finds her again, she
doesn't gush about, oh, you know, I helped the kid and da da da.
She's like, no, I'm just having fun and enjoying the sights.
And I think he sort of looks at her like, okay, no, something's
happened, but you're good.
It's all good.
Let's go watch the song.
I love the fact that the doctor originally came here with his
granddaughter.
Yeah.
Why is that mentioned?
I mean, I know it's to make Clara Boggle for a second.
You know, this is a 30-year-old who apparently has a granddaughter
but the other... into Essex.
I mean, the other grandfather in the episode is the grandfather
like that horrible mummy thing in the in the glass case.
Yeah.
Well, I think there is an effort there of juxtaposition.
And it's played on in the climax in that the doctor gives, you
know what I mean?
And there are times when the doctor is selfish and doesn't take
other people into account because he's not a perfect character.
But the doctor is basically a giver.
He gives people these experiences where all the other grandfather
does his take.
Yeah, yeah.
I felt really wistful with that mention because there's something
which the black and white years never did, which I wish they had
which was like, take the characters to a truly alien world with
marketplace and things like that.
You can just imagine the doctor and Vicky poking around a place
like this while Ian and Barber off, I don't know, getting sold
into slavery.
And it was a real like, I wish that we'd seen that.
And so, yeah.
I will say, though, Marco Polo sort of does that because something
that David Whitaker said was that for Ian and Barbara, the past is
as alien as an alien world.
But yeah, I totally agree with you there, Peter, because there's
an element in the heart and malaria, because you have longer
stories.
You often have periods where the characters, like in the Romans
are just living in the time.
And that's what this seems to be.
And I think the mention of Susan is both because it's the 50th
anniversary.
Oh, yeah, we're going to mention that.
But it's motivated by the fact that the doctor is talking about
this place so affectionately that Clara is like, oh, you've been
here before.
And I hear that and I immediately go, okay, we're going to get
another awkward gridlock moment.
But instead, Clara's just like, oh, you've brought me to somewhere
you know is great.
And it just, it makes me love this pairing immediately.
Like, they're both on the same frequency of, let's do something
fun.
And we've had that line immediately previously where the doctor's
like, where do you want to go?
And Clara says, you know that thing where you asked for your
favourite book and you suddenly forget every book you ever read?
No, no idea.
It's so, it's so sweet.
I think if Richard were here, you know, he would be comparing it
to Carrie Granton, Catherine Hepburn or Spencer Tracy and
Catherine Hepburn.
You know, they have that rapid fire thing between them, Matt and
Jenner. really gel very quickly.
And also that's such an easy thing to answer.
Doctor Who Planet of the Daleks.
Yeah.
I think they missed a trick with the whole Susan connection by not
having Clara at the end screaming, going, no, grandfather, no.
But it is quite nice because it's a fantastical situation, but in
those scenes with Clara and Mary, Jenna is great and she's really
playing it just like a normal person who's come across child in
distress and reaching out to them.
There's no kind of space acting involved.
But she's had 3 episodes in a row where she's had to be with small
children at some point.
You know, she's a master at acting with them and helping their
performances or some of them anyway.
It is very strange because we very definitely seem to be wanting
to position Clara as someone who is very caring.
And I don't know whether I've just got a false impression, but I
think that she is much more brittle and much less like that in her
last 2 seasons, but maybe it's because I haven't rewatched them
recently.
Well, I think, though, the ongoing plot does attempt to explain
why that is.
But yeah, I think early on, we are we are setting up for that.
And something I really like about it is, you know, we've had the
flashback, we know what's happened to Clara's mother, Ellie.
But the story never says Clara looks after children because this
happened to her.
I think that's definitely the conclusion we're meant to draw as
the audience, but it's not crammed down our throats.
It's organic character development.
And something that I don't think is ever commented on is Ellie
dies on the 2nd day that Rose takes place.
So it's highly likely that Ellie was killed by an auton.
Yeah, I mean, I kind of want her not to have died for space
reasons, obviously. because lots of people died on that day.
Do you know what I mean?
And weren't...
Yeah, totally.
When dresses or whatever.
But that date was also chosen by the production team.
You know, and I only noticed it this time around because I went, oh
yeah, it's 2005. when the new series came back.
Oh yeah, it's March, which is when it's the 5th and I'm going to
Doctor Who Wikia now.
But yeah, Jenna has such warmth in her performance there.
And even when it looks like she was wrong and, you know, singing
the song was a bad idea.
And even when Mary attacks her, her instinct is, no, Mary, I know
you're scared, I'm going to protect you.
It's really well done and it's done without big speechifying or
explaining character motivation.
Is Moffat doing a thing here?
Because we talked in the last podcast about the fact that the
great intelligence, it's thing is corrupting children and turning
into things.
So is Moffat playing that against the fact that Clara has this
really maternal role and bond with children?
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe there, I mean, Moffat, you know, the Moffat era is the 1st
era of Doctor Who ever to regularly bring children into it.
You know, it is a Moffat thing.
There aren't many children in Doctor Who before then. and there
haven't been many children subsequent to that either.
And, you know, for Moffatt, Doctor Who is the thing that you are
slightly scared of that you watch as a child.
And Mothat might be the only producer, stroke showrunner who has
young children. time, didn't you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Can we talk about the setting?
I sometimes wonder whether part of the antipathy towards this show
is that if you're a big kind of space science fiction, the setting
is preposterous.
So Ackerton is a son.
See, this is where I was confused because it's referred to as a
sun at the beginning, but then it's referred to as a gas giant.
But maybe it's a binary star system.
It's a gas giant with a frowny face in eyes.
So you've got the rings, which is like a, you know, like a disc of
kind of, you know, asteroids.
And we see 2 of the 7 asteroids or worlds or planets and they get
referred to as planets.
Yeah, but they're not spherical or spheroid.
And in fact, the marketplace seems to be built on top.
In fact, you know, on both planets, we seem to be building on top
of the asteroid, as if down was kind of still working and we get
these planets that we can see from one planet to another one, sound
appears to carry from one planet to the other one.
The moped appears to go from planet to planet in like 3 seconds.
Yeah, so I'm sort of waving my hand in the corner and having a
conniption.
Yes, that's the thing.
That's the problem I have with it.
It's like they sort of viewing everything that seems to be going
on with grandfather over there and what goes in between.
And I can never work out if it's like from here to the end of this
room or from here to like 2 suburbs away.
Yeah.
And so, that's one part of the episode where I kind of think, oh
that's a bit unrealistic, like, yeah, that there's not clear how
all that happened.
And I can understand why it raises people's ire because Doctor Who
has never got its science wrong before.
Yeah exactly right.
I never will again.
I think that there is a really, really proper effort to put
something super weird on the screen.
That's kind of why I like it.
Yeah, me too.
But you see, he wrote this after.
The other episode, which he does later in the season, is tied
which they liked, and then they got him to do some reason. as that
can be, but that also tries to do something a bit different from
what you expect.
And so I think that's sort of similar here.
Yeah.
The concept of this episode came about because Marcus Wilson, I
can't remember if he's producer or co-exec at this point.
No, I think I think just producer, but he pointed out to Stephen
Moffatt, look, in the 1st half of this series, we had our American
shoot and our Spanish shoot, we don't have a budget for an
international shoot in this half, but we still want something
visually spectacular.
What if we created something on the scale of an international
shoot as a science fiction setting?
So it's like, right, we're going to have this marketplace and
we're going to have this pyramid and we're going to have more
aliens than we've ever had before.
And the alien design work is one of the really successful things.
Like I only spotted one of them that was a reuse of an alien from
earlier in the series.
And they did, they did say, oh, we can have Jadoon and we can have
this and we can have that.
And Stephen Moffat actually said, no, if we're going to do this
let's not make it look like we've just raided the costume
cupboard.
Yeah.
You know, and pretty much that went down to, okay, in that case
we're not having Jadoon and Hoyks and Slovine.
Yeah.
Although I think that one of the brothers hot pylene or something
is...
And I think someone has mugged some half, stolen, stolen their
breathing things, left them to drown.
When they were mugged, they tried to call out for help and it
was...
Poor half key.
It's kind of like there are moments where the marketplace looks
really cheap.
Yeah, yeah.
Hey, but it's Doctor Who.
The set looks really terrible.
I think a lot of it looks good and I kind of go, no, I would
rather you look cheap when you're trying to be ambitious than be
cheap because you think it's going to look bad anyway.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah.
Do you think some of the, I think some of the green screen is not
the best. like whether it be on the moped going between the
planets or whatever.
Or where Mary is being dragged by that force field across to the
grandfather's planet.
Which, of course, then undermines the whole distance between
things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's like the problem with Chromickey and the classic series
and that some of it actually really is good, which only highlights
the bits that aren't.
Yeah.
But again, I think I would agree with you.
Rather than do the 90 Star Trek thing of, let's just not show
anything too interesting because that would be expensive, we get
we don't care.
Let's try and see what we can do and some of it falls flat.
But they deserve praise.
Yeah.
I think I think they deserve praise for being like that rather
than then coming, cutting back and saying, well, we just did this
and this happened, you know, without actually seeing it, you know
like 90 Star Trek voyager, it does.
Yeah, it's kind of like with the mopeds.
That came about because as part of this idea, Marcus Wilson said
to Neil Cross, you know what we've never done in Doctor Who?
We've never done something as good as the speeder bike chase in
Return of the Jedi.
It never will.
Yeah, it's like, you still haven't, mate.
That's the genesis of the idea.
And I think it's one of those things where by the time it comes
for them to do it.
They've kind of forgotten the original intent and they're just
doing it because it's there instead of just going, you know what?
Let's have a transmat cubicle over here and save the money to do
this other shot here.
But at the same time, it's like the speed of bike stuff is sorry
the moped stuff is not as bad as I remember it then.
Yeah.
The really dodgy bit of green screen for me is when the doctor's
trying to unlock the door and he's standing about 3 or 4 metres
away from Clara because the camera is focussed on him, which means
she's out of focus, which means you get that CSO fuzziness around
her head because there's no clean edge.
Yeah.
And I'm just like, that's green screen 101.
You've gotta have a clean edge.
You got to have everything on the same plane or you shoot in
multiple things.
In a way, I'm more critical of that than I am of the speed of bike
because that's something simple.
Yeah.
I mean, look, the speed of bike is more interesting and having it
go between planets rather than just from this mountain to the
nearby mountain is also more interesting.
And so, look, I mean, the effects often don't come off at all, but
you know, it's Doctor Who.
It's interesting how the Sonic's used here too. against those
soldiers with the blue energy and all that sort of thing.
It's much more of a weapon type thing.
I love the fact that it seems like it's costing Matt physical
effort to hold the Sonic up under the door and that's actually
really funny. like that's an actually sort of fun beer.
Yeah, it's a good moment, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, withholding back the vigil.
There was a scripted explanation that was cut basically because it
was an exposition speech during a fight.
Yeah, like we're not going to do that.
And that is the vigil, they've got those grill like mouths because
they're speakers.
They're attacking with sonic energy.
Ergo, the Sonic can counteract that and the doctor says, it's like
noise cancelling headphones.
And Clara says, what a noise cancelling. doesn't know about tech.
We'll start with Clara.
What's the Internet?
Voice cancelling headphones.
Yeah, she's very non-techy.
Brandon, that's brilliant.
That's just improved this story.
And the thing is, the effects.
Once I read that, I thought about the effect.
It's like, yeah, he's absolutely making a bubble around.
And he does comment with the door that it's based on an audio lock
which for a culture based around song makes sense.
And later, Mary, you know, remembers a song about a secret
passageway and that opens the secret passageway.
And that's the kind of alien thought logic that you get way back
in the web planet.
A silent wall.
We must make mouths in it with our guns so it will speak more
light.
You know, and for me, that that beauty and effort to imagine what
a different culture would emphasise and make important makes up
for the deficiencies in this episode.
This kind of is a bit where planetish in that there's some
imagination happening.
And I'm all on board for that.
But you mentioned the singing, and I think that is another major
reason why people don't like it because people don't come to Dot 2
for singing in general.
I do quite like it because I think it's done quite nicely and I
think it's an imaginative idea, but the episode is heavily
focussed on it.
I like that, though, because it does sort of work well with the
rest of the sort of fantasy environment and it is literally magic
isn't it?
You aren't to certain words in certain patterns.
You do a ritual that you can't make a mistake in.
All of those things are features of magic and religious ritual.
And I think that it works really well too, because the music is
great.
And it means something to me retrospectively because it's the
music that's used during Matt's regeneration.
And that makes me very sad.
So it has resonance.
First time through, I just gave up with the singing.
I was going, oh, please.
But I really agree with you.
I really think it's beautiful and I don't love the way it's
actually used now.
Do you remember that exchange in a Christmas carol, where the
doctor gives space reasons why the shark is carved by Catherine
Jenkins seeing and the fish start biting him to make him stop
doing it because the real reason is the sharks love the singing.
And here, I just think the worst thing that you could possibly do
is space reasons to explain away how the singing works.
The singing works because it's magic.
The singing works because it's a bunch of people together, all
doing something and it's meant to placate this sort of horrible
thing and it works because we've all joined together despite our
different backgrounds and stuff like that.
We've all brought something to sacrifice, and that has an effect
on the monster, which is also magical.
Yeah.
And it ties in with the concept of sentimental value as currency
because all of these people are singing with sentiment.
You know, they're singing because they love the grandfather, you
know what I mean?
And they think that this is what the grandfather wants.
And both Moffatt and RTD to this point had both been critical of
religion, but also praising religion, like in gridlock.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know?
And so I think what it sort of makes clear is, you know, Doctor
Who is not anti-religion.
And sometimes people pick up on stories like this or, you know, the
whole plot with the silence and kind of point to Doctor Who and
you know, Doctor Who's saying religion is bad.
It's like, no, no, no.
You know, Doctor Who is saying it's a pile of good things and a
pile of bad things.
And when it's good, it's beautiful.
Do you remember that exchange where the doctor says to Clara, they
think that this is where all life in the universe came from, and
she kind of pins him, tries to pin him down on whether it's true
or not.
And he says it's a lovely story.
And so that does introduce the idea of like religion as a source
of truth or not.
Yeah And, you know, when they're over with the creature, we think
is the grandfather at the time. and the tenor is still desperately
singing to try and put him to sleep and the doctor sort of sits
down in front of him.
And the subtext of the conversation is basically like, you didn't
do anything wrong, but you can't do anything now.
I've got this.
You're okay.
And he, you know, he doesn't do it by destroying the guy's belief
he doesn't do it by tearing him down and saying, you know, you're
a stupid idiot.
He respects the effort and belief that this guy has put into his
life.
And it's it's not his fault that he's been lied to and deceived.
Yeah.
And it's not his fault that he's believed the lie.
The doctor's just like, no, I will handle this.
You know, you get out of here to save yourself.
And it's really a lovely and sweet moment.
It's like so much of this episode, I think it goes against
expectations.
You know, there are stories where we have, you know, evil gods or
things that aren't gods and the doctor decries them and what have
you.
But here, I think he recognises the differences this guy's
motivation is pure.
I actually cried watching that little moment this time because
this guy basically has no character, you know.
His whole life is this, and it's all we see him doing, and it's
been destroyed.
And in just a few lines between them, there's acknowledgement
there's respect, there's acceptance.
Yeah, this story is a lot cleverer than I gave it credit for going
in.
And also, it's not any kind of singing.
I mean, they're not all getting together and singing love in the
1st degree drama.
It's a hymn, a long song.
And so it sort of plays into that.
And I think it's quite beautiful, actually.
Like, I'm an atheist, but I sometimes, jealousy is not the right
word.
But I sometimes wish I had...
The certainty.
The sort of quiet faith and serenity that I see, for instance, that
my grandmother's had who were religious, you know, and I, it's not
it's something I've decided not to pursue because I know I
wouldn't really be believing in it.
But I think this story highlights that that is possible and that
is a net positive.
But it does it without, it does it without judgement.
It doesn't say it's a good thing or a bad thing.
It says it's a good thing for these people and it works for these
people.
Yeah, I mean, it's like gridlock, isn't it?
It is like gridlock, which has prophecies and all sorts of things
that come true.
It has the people singing a Christian hymn together.
And the doctor's reaction is, you know, this is just here to
prevent you from doing anything about the situation that you find
yourself in.
But Martha's response is that this is kind of an expression of
human solidarity that these people use to sustain themselves.
And so the religious trappings of this, and the fact that it all
works via magic, I think, kind of raises those questions without
sort of properly answering them, and that's a good thing.
Also, the trappings of religion can have their own social effect
even without the religion.
So people gain together who never go to church, but go to church
on Christmas Eve to enjoy the carols and the hymns and that, that
can have its own cohesive effect and there's nothing more social.
You know, the great social activities, people singing together.
Can we talk about the end?
So the climax.
Is that all right?
Oh, so did you want to...
No, I'm just enjoying this discussion of religion.
I think it's really interesting.
I'm always reminded of Major Kira on Deep Space 9 and that
performance and the way that character was crafted by none of
visitor and the writers, in that she had that absolute faith and
certainty in that grounding in that character over those 7 years.
That's a performance that I always look to.
But the stuff you were saying, Brendan, yeah.
It's quite affecting.
I think there's a lot here that you can miss if you just take it
at surface level.
But let's go on to the actual climax of this whole thing, which is
giving Matt Smith a huge speech.
I don't like his delivery of this speech at all.
And I guess, what are we trying to do?
Are we trying to recreate the speech from the Pandoraca opens
which I think is a remarkable performance.
Like it's really quite extraordinary.
It's rainy, there's flashing lights ahead.
He's got this big microphone thing.
He's talking as if he's addressing a massive crowd of people and
he does it in all sorts of surprising ways.
And I think it works really well.
It's because it's in Pandora Opens.
It's a dramatic speech, which is given a grandstanding delivery by
Matt, and this is a grandstanding speech.
Yeah, yeah.
Also, I think that, you know, the Pandora speech is so incredibly
well directed as well with all those shots from above and stuff
like that.
Here, he's like on a studio set.
It's much more constrained and the speech, I think, is a bit
crummy.
Like it is a little bit kind of, I don't know, it's
philosophical.
It's hard to know how a character would, like, what does he want?
you know, like it's, I don't know.
In the Pandorica speech, right?
He's desperate to scare these people off despite the fact that he
has no plan and no weapons and these are all of his enemies and
stuff.
So there's a character thing to do.
Here, he's just kind of saying a lot of platitudes and I just
don't think he pulls it off.
He's saying it so that, you know, ultimately it will fail, so that
Clara will come.
That's the reason why.
And that makes the speech fail.
But we've talked about this, Nathan, the fact that we're now at
the point where the writers are writing moments for Matt.
And so here's a big speech for him rather than the Pandorica, where
site yet unseen.
Yeah, yeah.
And I just think that also without his team of River Amy and Rory
in this 2nd half of the season, they're trying to give Matt these
moments to sort of carry the episode.
I think he works so much better when he's got the Paternoster game
with him because he's not having, like, he can bounce off
different things and come up with different things and it's much
more organic when it's just him and Clara.
Yeah.
Then he has to carry the workload and then just making it about
his performance and what he can do.
Oh, this is a Matt Smith thing, whether he's twirling around or
whatever.
And I think, and I don't say this in a horrible way.
But this is the moment for me that Matt begins to go off the boil
in terms of what comes next.
I just think I kind of begin to go, oh, it's a Matt Smith thing.
Matt Smith thing in episodes coming up because he has to carry
much more of the action because there's only the 2 of them.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing because I think Matt's
brilliant.
But back to this.
This is, I totally agree with you.
It doesn't quite work.
Yeah, I think this is the moment for me as well, where I start to
think he's not pulling it off.
And I don't think it's entirely Matt's fault.
I don't think it's a good speech.
It's just the fact he doesn't have Amy and Rory and River.
That sort of was the nucleus of his performance.
And now he's having to he's having to strike out on his own.
But it's what you were saying, Nathan.
I don't think the writings all that good.
It feels a bit fan servicey, this kind of speech.
Oh yeah, he's talking about that bit.
They should have just gone further.
You know, I've walked in universes where Stephen and Dodo acted
like simpletons while playing hopscotch.
Stuff like that.
But it all felt a bit lame.
Yeah, yeah.
I think it needed it needed precision.
Like, I walked in universes where the laws and physics had gone
mad.
No, I've walked in universes where the earth died in flame.
Yeah.
Perhaps what it needed was that Stephen Muffin needed to come in
and actually rewrite this heavily and I don't think that's
necessarily happened.
Yeah.
It was almost worse.
Oh, yeah.
It was almost worse.
Something about Stephen and Dodo.
No?
Not the speech.
The speech was the same in the draft.
In the draft, it worked.
In the draft, that destroyed Akaten.
And it was Stephen Moffat who said, no, this is Clara's 1st trip.
Clara needs to be integral to the solution.
And the leaf had already been invented as part of the thing.
And the whole thing with the leaf was Clara wouldn't give it up.
So it gave away the ring instead.
But she still had the leaf at the end. you know, and then Stephen
Moffatt said to Neil.
It's like, what if it looks like it works, but then Clara has to
come over and use the leaf and explain what the leaf is.
And he's like, of course, why didn't I think of that?
And we get that.
And that's the successful part of the ending.
Yeah.
It really is the beast below, isn't it?
Because Amy has the same function at the end.
But without the doctor being a bloody moron.
But yes, yes.
And I think that's why I like it more than the beast below because
it's not, oh, that's big cool.
See, my problem with the beast below is Amy's solution is clever
but it's diminished by the fact that the doctor can't see the
obvious.
Whereas here, with everything we know, what the doctor has
suggested should work.
And it doesn't because the creature is infinite.
But you know, the doctor thinks, oh, I can engorge it and make it
explode, but it's like, no, no, no, your experiences are still
finite.
And Clara provides the infinite.
And so the doctor's failure is a noble heroic failure rather than
a failure of failing to understand the situation.
But we're told that it eats your soul and that your soul is made
up of stories.
And so we feed it on things that have sentimental value and stuff
like that because they're our stories.
That's what our soul is about.
And we're all very scared of it.
But Matt gives his big speech and then what, he's fine?
Well, he is time lord.
But do you know what I mean?
They're selling us some danger here that just never eventuates.
He gives his big speech and then, you know, Jenna comes on and
says, you know, move out of the way.
I'll fix this.
And she gives a better speech too.
You're right, Todd, in that because this speech has to fail.
It's not the climax of the episode, right?
So he can't give a better speech than her.
She has to give a better speech and perhaps it needs to be more
heartfelt as well because it's about all of the things that never
happened, all of the days that her mother never got to
experience.
And so it makes you wonder why they don't just keep grandfather in
check by basically reciting their life stories.
That's all it needs to.
And like this is not the sort of thing that is going to hold up to
even sort of fairly gentle scrutiny, I think.
But like as far as the story goes.
It's not clear what's at stake.
Is Matt sacrificing his life for the sake of everyone else and
Clara comes in and stops him from doing that.
But no one seems to be under threat at all.
It's just not clear what danger grandfather poses.
Can you fry something for me?
Like when they do dispense with grandfather, does that mean that
whole son's gone and so...
Yeah, I wanted that too.
The whole system just collapses and nobody can live there.
Please, the laws of unintended concerts.
It does disappear, doesn't it?
And it is completely dark.
Yeah.
And from what I can see, it was never considered a problem in the
scripting state.
It's not like there's a missing scene with the doctor saying, well
you know, he just took over the sun.
It's a normal son that he was living on.
It's like, no, it's gone and we just go back to London.
No more days sunbathing for Dory.
Do you remember that thing where?
You know, the doctor tries to go, oh, you know, I've seen bigger.
And Clara goes, what, really?
He said, no, this is massive.
That was brilliant. is really great.
I mean, I think it has to be a gas giant, isn't it?
It's got rings.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So it goes away.
It's still like, you know, like gravitational collapse, but we're
absolutely asking the wrong questions about the thing, I think.
I think, but I do think it is worth asking.
We don't know what threat's being posed here, like what the
problem is.
There is word peril.
Mary says that grandfather will get out and feed on the souls of
the 7 planets and then go forward through the universe and that's
what one of the old songs says.
Yeah.
But, you know, I think it's while the vigil are going, and while
the song's going...
So it's a bit hard to hit.
And this is why people don't like it because the stakes are not
defined and so it feels a bit silly and it's all being held in
check by singing and so it feels a bit silly.
It's all shot against green screen and so it feels a bit silly, et
cetera.
But it's not.
I like it.
I like it too, but it's what Russell says about Zog monsters on
the planet Zog.
Yeah, Dog Monster, isn't she?
And the thing is...
I think you can get away with it occasionally.
And I think we do get away with here.
The 1st half has the same confidence as last week.
It's like, yep, we are putting 20 different aliens on screen for
you and you're going to enjoy it and that one has lights in his
face and this one barks and rents out mopeds.
Actually, it reminds me a bit of snake dance and we, you know, we
made a snake dance joke earlier.
Do you know what it reminds me?
Oh, Dragonfire.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's it's a criticism we made of Eric Saywood back in the day was
that he wanted everything to be really sensible.
And it was like, even Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, who was like, I
don't want silliness and I want science, still writes, let's
materialise the TARDIS and underwater and open the door. right.
Let's get out of a time loop by acting it out.
Yeah, yeah.
Those are brilliant big bonkers ideas, which is what Doctor Who
needs, and that's what we have here.
And, you know, with the whole, so are they all dead now?
It's like, nah, something happened and they're fine.
You know, we know they're fine or else it's a matter of, oh, they
wanted me to have my ring back.
Yes, because they're all dead, Clara.
We blew up a sun, Morty.
I think getting the ring back from all of them is a beautiful
moment.
Yes.
Maybe that's the rings of Akatown.
Or the keys of marinace.
Or the hats of the archi man drive.
I like the fact that this is the 2nd episode in a road that's
concerned with ringing the title.
What will next week then?
It's so nice to all Matt's little moment with the beano.
Yeah, yeah.
That remind me of Delta and the Bannerman with Murray.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
I've got the dog 2 magazine, 1981 summer special, by the way.
I should have been reading.
It's got a profile of this new producer, JNT.
And I think an examination of the other rooms in the Tartars.
Oh my god.
Nothing's changed.
At the end, does Clara realised that the doctor was at the grave?
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Does it make her suspicious?
I can't remember.
I just wrote it down.
Yeah.
She asks him about it and he says you remind me of someone I
someone I lost, someone who died.
And her response is, well, no, I'm Clara.
If I'm travelling, I'm not a replacement.
And he's like, no, no, no.
It's, look, it's fine.
It's just that that's, I had to check.
And she's like, okay.
So it's actually a refreshing moment because, yeah, he didn't tell
Amy about the flesh pregnancy thing.
He didn't tell Amy that her house didn't make sense, but here he's
questioned up front and he goes, you know, this is the situation.
And he does basically tell her everything he currently. knows
about it, except that she was in another time, but Clara can
probably guess at that.
I think, though, it is at this point made very clear to the doctor
that Clara is just a normal person.
He's seen her childhood, he's seen the funeral.
He's met her, he's heard her speak.
She tells him that she's not those other people or that other
person, who he remembers, but he still sort of persists.
And so it's another one of the Moffatt hiding the resolution in
plain sight things.
Turns out she's just completely normal and in no way impossible
and it's just in the season finale.
She does something remarkable.
Yeah, but it's just her.
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.
We'll be back next week for the best of Ultravox in Cold War.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook
at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website
FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other
podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody InterTara, maximum power, and untitled
Star Trek project.
Until next time, remember to respect the Todd experience, because
one day, it might just happen to you.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
Good night.
That was Flight Through Entirety, sir, and Todd Bealby, Nathan
Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and Brendan Jones, theme arrangement by
Cameron Lamb.
This episode, there's an apostrophe, was recorded on the 29th of
May 2022 and released on the 11th of September.
We all enjoyed the Rings of Ackerson, but due to its eccentric
ideas about planetary physics.
Please don't mention it to American astrophysicist and Notorious
internet pedant Neil DeGrasse Tyson.
Seriously, we'll never hear the end of it.
But the doctor is basically a giver.
He gives people these experiences where all the other grandfather
does his take.
Yeah, yeah.
And they're both impossibly old.
So he's a giver, not a taker.
He's a given on a taker. that's right God, we're filthy today.
We.
Just wait until you hear what he said about Celia Emery.
And if Nathan had to cut it, that could be...
She was fantastic in that scene at the end.
Yeah.
It's a little girl.
Just heartbreaking.
They should have cast her as merry.
I felt really wistful with that mention.