WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:22:15 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:44.100 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's read with the blood of humanity. 2 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.560 We really should go and have a bath. 3 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:48.299 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:49.259 I'm Brendan. 5 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:50.280 I'm Mark. 6 00:00:50.340 --> 00:00:51.240 And I'm Jack. 7 00:00:51.299 --> 00:00:53.460 Well, it's 1983. 8 00:00:53.880 --> 00:01:06.659 Margaret Thatcher has just been reelected, Ultravox's 1st breakup is still 4 years away, and somewhere in BBC Television Centre, Peter, Mark, and Janitor shooting the final episode of Warriors of the Deep. 9 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:14.879 So have we learnt anything about how to make top quality Doctor Who in the last 30 years, let's find out as we discuss Cold War. 10 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:37.560 So, I have a feeling that this is very, very, very early on in Jenna Coleman's career in Doctor Who. 11 00:01:37.620 --> 00:01:40.560 Is this the 1st episode she shoots or the 2nd? 12 00:01:40.620 --> 00:01:43.140 It's certainly long before snowman, is that right? 13 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:44.519 Yeah, that's right. 14 00:01:44.579 --> 00:01:47.159 So this is the 2nd episode she shoots. 15 00:01:47.219 --> 00:02:01.439 So they have just shot Hyde, and during production of this, Matt was rushing off to shoot pickups for Hyde, and also rushing off to do additional dialogue recording for the power of 3 with Karen and Arthur. 16 00:02:01.500 --> 00:02:02.280 Oh my god. 17 00:02:02.340 --> 00:02:16.979 So while this is going on, he's working with all his companions on various things because the complete history doesn't go into detail on this particular entry, but it is because of the massive restructuring needed for the power of 3 because Stephen Burkoff is mad. 18 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.319 He refused to do his job. 19 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:22.800 Yeah, as we have mentioned earlier this year. 20 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:24.659 And on Bonfinger. 21 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:30.780 Douglas McKinnon was having to do some work as well, wasn't he, on the power of 3 while he was working on this as well? 22 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:31.979 Oh, okay. 23 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:33.240 Because he did both of those. 24 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:34.259 Is that true? 25 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:34.680 Yeah. 26 00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:35.039 Yeah. 27 00:02:35.099 --> 00:02:40.080 And that's part of the reason they waited until now to do those ADR pickups. 28 00:02:40.139 --> 00:02:54.180 Okay. as well as assessing the damage, basically, because in TV, you know, once you realise something isn't working, you don't necessarily immediately order a pickup, you figure out how much of it isn't working to know how much you have to reshoot. 29 00:02:54.300 --> 00:03:01.740 That temporal displacement for Matt Smith feels very appropriate for this episode, given the presence of Tobias Menzies in this episode. 30 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:07.800 It's like Matt Smith's career, past, present, and future, and very, very far in the future and the crown happening all at once. 31 00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:09.180 Yeah, yeah. 32 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:11.159 So we have the 2 Prince Phillips. 33 00:03:11.219 --> 00:03:19.680 And we have Prince Charles getting killed before the opening credits by Scaldak. 34 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:21.840 I wanted to call him Maldak. 35 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:22.740 No, no. 36 00:03:22.740 --> 00:03:24.419 Is that a character from Vengeance on Faros? 37 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:25.020 Yeah, yeah. 38 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.560 Yeah, he's the one who is the lead cannibal in Torchwood after that. 39 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:29.759 Oh, okay. 40 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:30.539 Owen Teal. 41 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:35.759 That's delightful So how do we feel about Jenna, this episode? 42 00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:56.699 Well, what really struck me about this episode is that it feels, at least Clara on the page still feels like Clara Oswald being written to like an audition brief, essentially, which is that we want an actor who can keep up pace with Matt Smith in the dialogue department. 43 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:11.879 So, you know, there are lots of scenes where, um, you know, particularly at the beginning when the uh, submarine is sinking, you have all these like snappy little back and forth between Jenna and Matt and it doesn't really change throughout the episode. 44 00:04:11.939 --> 00:04:24.240 And, um, so it feels like Jenna's Coleman's been given the singular objective of keeping up pace with Matt Smith throughout the episode, which, as it turns out, because Jenna Coleman is a wonderful actor, she does with great aplomb. 45 00:04:24.300 --> 00:04:41.519 It's interesting for her character arg that this is the story where she gets to grip with how to handle fear, given where she ends up, where she's very fearless and reckless, that, you know, it's the tips from the older character about how he handles fear by singing and things like that. 46 00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:44.040 She's very afraid in this one. 47 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:50.100 And I think it's probably a counterpoint of the people who find her a bit too smug and fearless a lot of the time. 48 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:57.060 This, you know, when she sees the dead bodies and she says, well, this, this suddenly got very real, didn't it, that it isn't just like a jolly romp. 49 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:08.399 But what I remembered when I watched it, again, was after the Rings of Akitan went out the week before, Paul Cornell tweeted, hello, the new Sarah Jane. 50 00:05:08.459 --> 00:05:19.079 And then when you watch this episode, that's really reinforced because she goes through 2 sort of big Sarah Jane moments where she questions how they can understand Russian in this case. 51 00:05:19.139 --> 00:05:24.779 And she also says, well, we know the world didn't end in 1983. 52 00:05:25.019 --> 00:05:25.560 Is it? 53 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:27.360 Why is it cool? 54 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:30.779 So, so why does it matter what we do? 55 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:37.019 And that sort of reinforced, you know, the idea that that, you know, maybe they're going for a modern day Sarah Jane with Clara? 56 00:05:37.259 --> 00:05:43.259 I think that there is a kind of thing where she is really generic. 57 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:57.060 You remember when Bob Holmes 1st writes for Perry and the 6th doctor in the 2 doctors, Perry's like frighteningly generic, I think, there's not very much to her beyond her performance. 58 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.519 And that's often what the classic series does. 59 00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:09.180 And it's a little bit unusual for the new series that has really, very strongly defined characters to have someone kind of be as generic as Jenna. 60 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:13.920 And like, I think she does do one or 2 things that are unusual. 61 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:28.139 I think the way she volunteers to speak to the ice warrior when neither the captain nor the doctor can get away with doing it and she kind of volunteers and goes in and does it and even sort of takes over. 62 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:33.240 She's being directed, isn't she, by Matt, but she, you know, does some of her own things. 63 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:39.600 And then the other striking thing that she does is the doctor says, stay here. 64 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.399 And she sort of says, yeah, all right. 65 00:06:41.459 --> 00:06:44.579 And then he goes, no, no, really actually stay here. 66 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:46.259 Yeah, sure, like whatever. 67 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:52.139 And so she doesn't, you know, but she's, even that is defining her against the companion role. 68 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:55.259 She is very, very definitely the new companion here. 69 00:06:55.620 --> 00:07:04.980 It's interesting because throughout the drafts of this script, she slowly becomes more involved in the plot. 70 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:12.720 So for Mark Gatis's original write-up, 1st of all, she was still Beryl, the Victorian governess. 71 00:07:13.500 --> 00:07:25.560 And so there was going to be a lot of sort of things of, you know, Beryl would have a clever moment where she figures out that the Cold War is possibly a result of action in the Crimea in her time. 72 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:29.459 She's like, well, if the Crimea situation blows up, that could lead to this. 73 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:34.319 But it was things like the doctor was the one who went to talk to Scaldak. 74 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:40.860 Beryl was left alone in a room to protect her, but then the ice warrior comes in like with Victoria. 75 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:43.259 And it was sort of with each subsequent draft. 76 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:44.279 She was given more to do. 77 00:07:44.339 --> 00:07:51.300 So yeah, I think part of the reason Gator's kind of right, so generically, is it all he had to go on with Jenna's audition tape? 78 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:54.899 Because when he was writing, she hadn't filmed anything yet. 79 00:07:54.959 --> 00:08:05.279 And it seems like a lot of the action she's given such as talking to Skaldak came about with discussions with Stephen Moffat and later with General Louise Coleman herself. 80 00:08:05.339 --> 00:08:10.500 Like apparently at the read-through is when the decision was made that she would talk to Scaldak. 81 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:15.420 Like, it was already on the cards, but they're like, Matt, Jenner, what do you think? 82 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:15.959 Who should do this? 83 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.060 And Jenna said, well, well, I'm up for it. 84 00:08:18.180 --> 00:08:20.339 Matt said, well, she should do it because she's only just started. 85 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:29.100 And I like that this is the 1st time that she admits that she's scared because as much as what's gone on in the last 2 episodes, you know, in Bells of St. 86 00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:30.779 John, she's in London. 87 00:08:30.779 --> 00:08:32.220 In Rings of Acha 10. 88 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:36.539 She only faces real physical danger when she rushes into it. 89 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:37.139 Yeah. 90 00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:38.100 In this situation. 91 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:40.860 She's been plonked in it, and she's got no choice but to face it. 92 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.279 So it's kind of building up the danger towards the character. 93 00:08:44.340 --> 00:08:57.659 And with what you said, Mark, about sort of her later risky behaviour, there is actually a deleted line where the doctor asks, you know, how are you after dealing with the scaldax situation? 94 00:08:57.659 --> 00:09:01.860 And she basically says that was terrifying and I felt so alive. 95 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.139 And I kind of read that. 96 00:09:04.139 --> 00:09:07.919 I'm like, 0 my god, that's faced the Raven 3 years early, that is. 97 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:14.940 And it's not the, it's actually not the only thing that was dropped from this that will be recycled in series nine, but I'll come back to that later. 98 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:39.000 I have to say that I think that this might be the point where I kind of lose it with the standalone movie style premises for the series. 99 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:51.480 And I think that they were, you know, they were very clearly a reaction against the very complex plotting in series 6 and to a lesser extent in series 5. 100 00:09:51.779 --> 00:09:59.399 And I think because we were working towards the 50th anniversary thing and because we were splitting the season over 2 years. 101 00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:03.000 He just decided to kind of pull back a little bit. 102 00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:20.100 And that worked very well, I think, in the 1st half of the season, because there is an arc, and the arc is about Rory and Amy kind of growing out of the doctor, like growing away from him, and that relationship changing. 103 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:26.399 Here, you've got a character who has a mystery to her. 104 00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:38.700 We've seen her twice already, but because that's a kind of red herring, you know, Moffatt likes to leave the answers to his mysteries lying in plain sight. 105 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:44.220 And next week will be told by Jessica Rain that in fact, you know, she is just a normal person. 106 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:54.360 And so there's a real kind of genericness and a real kind of reluctance to pin her down with any sort of particular characteristics. 107 00:10:54.419 --> 00:11:14.639 And so, you know, I think that that is a throwback to the classic series, and it is, I think, why Cornell called her, the Sarah Jane for the Modern era, or something, because Sarah Jane has a three-line bio, but basically is Elizabeth Slayton's performance. 108 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:16.980 And I'm not complaining. 109 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:18.480 I love Jenna's performance generally. 110 00:11:18.539 --> 00:11:27.720 You know, I think she's really great and I like her in this, but I just find this a little bit less satisfying because it goes for 40 minutes and then doesn't go anywhere. 111 00:11:27.779 --> 00:11:29.580 I'm watching the wrong show. 112 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:31.320 Am I watching the wrong show? 113 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:44.159 I think the, probably, probably works well in season 7B as well because the, the sort of arc because it was broadcast in the 50th anniversary year is to have sort of the rings of Aka 10, It's got some 1st doctor callbacks, doesn't it? 114 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:46.440 where it's the 1st time he mentions being a grandfather for a long time. 115 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:55.440 It's quite heavy on the exploration earlier on in the episode, which is like Hart and all, then this has got the HAD system, the Ice Warriors, the base under siege. 116 00:11:55.559 --> 00:12:00.659 And next week we've got a scientific advisor and a metabolist crystal and a country house. 117 00:12:00.659 --> 00:12:06.120 And it sort of goes on like that way, each episode is a little of a mild homage to each one. 118 00:12:06.179 --> 00:12:12.539 So having maybe a more 20th century style companion fits with that for the time being as well in some way. 119 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:13.679 Yeah. 120 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:22.980 I suppose what occurs to me about, because, you know, the whole gimmick of series 7 as a whole is that it's like movie of the week kind of thing. 121 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:34.620 Um, uh, and I feel what occurs to me in the transition between series 7 A and series 7 B is that you go from, in series 7 A, of like movie of the week. 122 00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:42.539 And I think here, because maybe it's because it's in 2013, and, you know, it's got the whole anniversary year kind of feel to it. 123 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:50.159 It goes from being movie of the week to the most movie version of this particular type of Doctor Who story. 124 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:58.379 In this case, the most movie version of a base under siege story, of a Trouton based under siege, complete with ice warriors and everything. 125 00:12:58.500 --> 00:12:59.879 Yeah. 126 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:00.659 Yeah. 127 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.059 And like, I think it does a reasonably good job of that. 128 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.179 Yeah, yeah, it's it's incredibly entertaining. 129 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:15.600 When I arrived here tonight, 1st thing I said to Nathan was, I'm 3 for 3 on enjoying this episode a lot more than I did last time. 130 00:13:15.659 --> 00:13:17.159 The Todd experience. 131 00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:18.000 Tod experience. 132 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.159 Good God, Cold War. 133 00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:25.980 You know, I'm going to have to grow my hair out. 134 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:34.379 Yeah, it's breathless and nonstop and sort of looking back on it. 135 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:40.320 I can't think of that many major time jumps, you know, it's things like, oh, I'll go in and talk to him. 136 00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:41.399 No, no, absolutely not. 137 00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:43.980 You're not doing that, Clara standing in front of an open door. 138 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:44.820 Yeah, of course. 139 00:13:45.419 --> 00:13:54.299 There's no kind of, okay, this is what we're going to do, slow fade, and they've set up like the bucket of feathers above the door, kind of booby trap nonsense. 140 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.620 And even though it is playing on old tropes. 141 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.440 Hi, Simon, it wears them very much on its sleeve. 142 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:05.460 So, you know, the monster in the ice as well as being the ice warriors, it's the thing from another world. 143 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:06.240 Yeah. 144 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.840 Hunt for Red October. is present throughout. 145 00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:12.059 You've got the base under siege. 146 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:16.860 But instead of the intransigent base commander, you've got the intransigent base subcommander. 147 00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:17.580 Yeah, yeah. 148 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:30.179 You know, um, uh, like Zukov is understandably suspicious of the doctor, but as soon as there's enough evidence to go, oh, actually, no, this guy's probably telling the truth, like, okay, you know how to get us out of this. 149 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:31.379 Get us out of this. 150 00:14:31.500 --> 00:14:39.059 Whereas, um, Steppishin is like, not suspicious all the way through, et cetera, et cetera. 151 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.519 I'd forgotten he dies off screen. 152 00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:46.320 I thought he was kind of with the ice warrior at the end going, no, no, we're going to blow up the world together. 153 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:52.379 And it's one area where I think the breakneck pace sort of falls apart because he just kind of disappears. 154 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:59.460 But also in his little in his little wallet, he's got a photo of presumably his girlfriend and a photo of Lenin. 155 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:00.840 The 2 loves of his life. 156 00:15:00.899 --> 00:15:02.039 That's nice. 157 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:02.940 Isn't that sweet? 158 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:04.440 We don't know which is which. 159 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:06.360 Like in what way, but that's fine. 160 00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:06.960 There you go. 161 00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:08.100 I like to think it's Lenin. 162 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:13.799 That's a better story My dearly departed Lenin. 163 00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:30.659 So you might have expected Zukov to be the one that died as well, because he is the reasonable one that the doctor can communicate with and be replaced by Steppishin, who he's going to have a much harder time convincing. 164 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.139 So it's that is a slight sort of difference to the formula as well, isn't it? 165 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:40.559 But the quality of those actors as well, that they've got Liam Cunningham and Tobias. 166 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:42.659 Is it Bias Menzies, yeah. 167 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:44.279 I think it's Menzies. 168 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.419 Sometimes you see Menzes is pronounced Mingus, isn't it? 169 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.580 But I don't know if that's a Celtic thing or something like that. 170 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.679 And they've seen... 171 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:53.639 Yeah, I don't know how he pronounced. 172 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:55.320 I'm just thinking of Australian Prime Ministers here. 173 00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:56.519 So I don't know. 174 00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:57.120 Yeah, yeah. 175 00:15:57.179 --> 00:16:00.419 We had a very long-term Australian Prime Minister in a second. 176 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:01.019 La longest. 177 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:02.159 It was a very long time. 178 00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:02.940 Very long time. 179 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:08.820 For me, this was before I saw Liam Cunningham and Tobias Menzies in Game of Thrones. 180 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:09.360 Right. 181 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:15.779 And Liam Cunningham plays one of my favourite characters in Game of Thrones, who is a sea captain. 182 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.899 So it's interesting to have him here doing that as well. 183 00:16:19.019 --> 00:16:28.259 Something I felt a little disappointed by watching this a 2nd time in Stargate in season four, 1st episode. 184 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:39.840 It opens with a sequence on board a Russian submarine done entirely in Russian and not translated, no subtitles or anything, and then they get attacked by a monster and that's the last you see of them. 185 00:16:39.899 --> 00:16:50.220 And I'm kind of like, it would have been really interesting to have those opening scenes with the Russians going through the drill in Russian until the Tartar arrives. 186 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:53.460 I get, look, I get why they didn't. 187 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:58.139 Well, they just didn't want to do Hunt for Red October, which is exactly what happens in Hunt for real. 188 00:16:58.200 --> 00:16:59.159 Yeah, that's a good point, actually. 189 00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:00.899 So they probably didn't want to do that. 190 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:22.500 And I think too, it's actually kind of cute that perhaps we think about Clara speaking in Russian for the 1st time when she claims not to speak in Russian in that bit that you alluded to before, Mark, where she's sort of surprised by her ability to speak and understand Russian and doesn't quite believe that she's doing it. 191 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:32.339 And I think we want to not hang a hat on it because of course the TARDIS disappears quite early on in the episode, but leaves them still completely able to understand and speak Russian. 192 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.059 So I think that's one we just don't want to press too hard on, probably. 193 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:36.839 Yeah, yeah. 194 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:45.059 And also there was a cut line where while Clara is asking all these questions about why she can speak it points at Lee and Cunningham and says them, why does he have an accent? 195 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:46.859 right. 196 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:55.319 That's one of my favourite things, though, of course, is where they use sort of regional accents or different classes of accents in English to represent. 197 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:57.000 Yeah, yeah, that's right. 198 00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.900 Yeah, he's actually like has Nanette ancestry or something. 199 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:01.980 Yeah, you know. 200 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:05.819 One of my favourite films is The Death of Stalin. 201 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:38.400 Um, and I remember Armando Ianucci talking about um, why uh, he allowed this real diverse ensemble of British and American actors to play these Russian figures from history in their natural voices because he said to instruct them to speak in a generic Russian accent or all have one uniform accent doesn't really represent, you know, the Soviet Union, because the Soviet Union is a hugely diverse region with a lot of diverse acc and languages. 202 00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:49.619 So he thought that actually allowing all the actors to speak in their natural dialects is actually more truthful to Russia itself if you're doing an English translation of the whole Soviet Union. 203 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:55.319 You just can't get actors to do that sort of cod Russian accent to represent me in Russian. 204 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:56.460 Either, can you? 205 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:57.599 I mean it's so stupid. 206 00:18:57.660 --> 00:19:04.019 And like, maybe we're just sort of surprised by it because it used to be the rule. 207 00:19:04.019 --> 00:19:12.180 Like, you just used to have it, just not to mention Bondfinger, but in an episode of Bondfinger, that we're going to record quite soon. 208 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:22.680 There are all these English actors doing these outrageous French accents to represent conversations in French between French speaking people and it just looks stupid. 209 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.279 So I think they make the right call. 210 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:32.640 And, of course, part of the point of this episode is the just the massive overcasting. 211 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:39.539 You know, you've got these incredibly great actors up against this wretched space lizard. 212 00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:44.039 And I just think that's one of the best things about it. 213 00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:57.720 I'd forgotten James Norton's in this as well, who's become a much bigger name since this episode went out to the extent that he's been talked about as a potential future bond as well. a relatively small part in this one. 214 00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:00.359 Yeah, he's the leading Grantchester, isn't he? 215 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:02.400 Yeah, I think so. 216 00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:06.839 Happy Valley and you've been in a couple of movies and things as well since then. 217 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:13.140 Because at 1st in the low lighting, I thought, no, no, he's way too young to be Jason Fleming. 218 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:13.500 No. 219 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:16.559 He does look a bit like Jason Fleming. 220 00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:34.319 One thing that I did, which, again, it kind of gets at my somewhat difficulty with the characterisation in this story, because I think it is all fairly surface level, if I'm honest, I think it is fair. fairly superficial characterisation. 221 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:35.400 There's not much depth to it. 222 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:48.839 But one thing I did kind of appreciate is that for a story that deals with, you know, you've got the archetypal base commander, you've got the archetypal sort of lieutenant, lieutenant who's a bit kind of, no, we... 223 00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:59.640 I did appreciate that it did stray away from the kind of cliche Russian Soviet villainous of that it could have gone for. 224 00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:07.740 I did actually quite like Liam Cunningham's speech about how, you know, they have a responsibility, not just they have a responsibility for the world. 225 00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:10.200 And, you know, that for humanity. 226 00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:15.180 And, you know, again, it's not to suggest that there's anything too revolutionary happening there. 227 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:23.339 I did appreciate the gesture to, oh, you know, these are people, you know, they're not just purely archetypes. 228 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:25.619 They love their children too, bread. 229 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:26.519 Yeah. 230 00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:47.579 Can we talk about the big cast member whom we've only just mentioned, and that is David Warner? 231 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:48.420 Yeah. 232 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.720 Yeah, I mean, he was another surprise to me coming back. 233 00:21:51.779 --> 00:21:56.759 Like my memory. was that basically he just had a couple of jokes, you know. 234 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:08.460 Yeah, we've wasted David Water and I said that a couple of weeks ago. actually. when I was referring to, you know, Celia Imory taking on the David Warner role, but actually having stuff to do. 235 00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:13.259 Is that what we're referring you to from now on, the David Water roll? 236 00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:15.779 David Waterroll. 237 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:26.940 But the fascinating thing is watching it back, you know, he gets to lighten the mood in the teaser and introduce this idea that all of these people are people. 238 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:28.319 Yeah, you know. 239 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:37.559 And he forms a bit of a friendship with Clara and there's all those bits where he's trying to get her to relax about the situation. 240 00:22:37.619 --> 00:22:45.059 And that wonderful bit where you think that he's going to go rogue and kind of interrogate Clara and will have to be clobbered with a torch or something. 241 00:22:45.059 --> 00:22:47.220 And he's just like, well, Ultravox state together. 242 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:55.500 The thing is, like, I did remember that moment, but in my head, it's like Clara starts laughing and he doesn't understand why she's laughing because he's actually very serious. 243 00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:01.619 But no, you watch it again and he's like, no, that is totally to get you to focus on the hero now. 244 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:06.660 And it's really well done in a way that I think only David Warner can bring that. 245 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.319 And I do have something interesting about his casting. 246 00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.500 Because this was another idea that was dropped. 247 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:25.140 So, like, the original script had the Russian sub going to a scientific research base, and David Warner was the only person left alive and brought back this Ice Warrior. 248 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:31.380 The thing is, though, he was bringing it back because he'd already reported it to Moscow and they wanted the Ice Warrior. 249 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.660 So he killed everyone else on board the base. 250 00:23:33.779 --> 00:23:35.400 So he's the villain, right? 251 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:43.680 Mark Gator sends, um, well, he's writing the script because he knows David Warner asks him, hey, I want you in my Doctor Who story. 252 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:46.619 It's this scientist who finds an iceware and Dave is like, oh yeah, great, great. 253 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.559 And as the script went through, it like lost all these details. 254 00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.440 So it was going to be a British sub looking for them, lost that. 255 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:56.099 And one of the details it lost was Grushenko being the villain. 256 00:23:56.099 --> 00:24:05.220 And then David gets the final script and comes up to Mark and he's like, oh, look, you know, this is a really great part and I'm really glad not to be playing a villain this time. 257 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:13.740 So him being the villain is the thing I'm referring to earlier that Mark Gatas then recycles in Sleep No More. 258 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:15.000 Ah, yeah. 259 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.460 It's Rasmussen's plot in sleep no more. 260 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:22.859 And I've just found that really interesting that obviously Mark Gatis has gone, oh, okay, not going to include that this time. 261 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:24.779 File it away and do it here. 262 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:33.119 That would have been quite a creepy ending for Sleep No More, where it's, you know, it's David Water, who's rubbing his eyes and they're disintegrating it to sand. 263 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:42.480 There's one beautiful bit where Clara says, are we going to be okay or is everything going to be all right and he just reassures her. 264 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:45.240 He just openly says, yes, everything's going to be fine. 265 00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:47.880 And it's like the doctor's job to normally do that. 266 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:58.799 And usually this doctor at least will acknowledge that he's telling a lie, or that he's just kind of making it up, but he's so absolutely kind of sincere and heartfelt when he says it. 267 00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:01.500 I thought it was really kind of striking. 268 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:02.519 Yeah, yeah. 269 00:25:02.579 --> 00:25:08.339 I mean, he's the one who's being threatened that, and Clara calls Scaldak off. 270 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:14.039 Like, Scarlac's about to kill him and Clara kind of rescues him, which I think is pretty great. 271 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:17.700 And we've already found out like a couple of scenes ago, what that entails. 272 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:20.339 If Scaldac's going to kill you. 273 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:21.119 Cut up. 274 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:22.380 Yeah, it's not pleasant. 275 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:22.980 Dismantled. 276 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:23.220 Yeah. 277 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:29.099 Can we talk about the Ice Warriors or the Ice Warrior? 278 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:41.039 It's always been my feeling that they are supremely low effort villains, and I think it's Xander who says that they're robot lizards from Mars or something, for God's sake. 279 00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:44.099 I mean, it couldn't be less imaginative, probably. 280 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.180 How do you feel they come across here though? 281 00:25:48.900 --> 00:26:00.779 I think it's interesting because yeah, you read the complete history and Stephen Moffat was resisting having the back, but for that reason, that they are a very stereotypical Doctor Who villain. 282 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:02.940 They're sort of big green men from Mars, like you say. 283 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:15.720 So it feels like to some extent, Margatus is working hard, as Rob Sheaman did with Dalek, to make them credible again, but to prove to Stephen Moffat that they can be a good recurring villain almost. 284 00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:21.779 So, uh, he really sort of, um, I mean, you get some of the, some of the beats from Dalek where it's chained up and things. 285 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:26.279 But I think he does a really good job of bringing them back like that. 286 00:26:26.339 --> 00:26:34.500 And I think some of the dialogue, like the, by the moons and stuff like that, it stops just short of being Galaxy Quest, doesn't it work? 287 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:41.940 while giving them a bit of colour and a bit of their own culture when he talks about the songs of the red sands and all that kind of stuff. 288 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.339 It's a nice little bit of world building. 289 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:53.880 And I think, again, there was some stuff cut where they talked about the final battle that he's on his way home from with that, which is in the book. 290 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.940 The doctor, his lives and times. 291 00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.279 So I'd access some of that stuff. 292 00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:06.059 So it's in there and it talks about this battle where he's where he's with his daughter and he decapitates his opponent and all that kind of stuff. 293 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.819 So, uh, yeah, it's, um, I think they do really well. 294 00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:15.119 And then the idea of him running around naked killing people as well. is something we haven't seen before with them. 295 00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:17.519 No, that's true. 296 00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:22.859 Yeah, the the early script stuff where they say he moves as fast as a gecko. 297 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.220 You don't really get that, but you do get the sense of how much faster he is. 298 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.200 He's slow and lumbering in his armour. 299 00:27:28.259 --> 00:27:32.220 But when he flies past Clara, he's a different type of threat. 300 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:32.819 He's fast. 301 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.099 He can sort of hide in the ducts and things. 302 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:38.039 So it's, uh, yeah, I think they do a real good job with it. 303 00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:52.079 I think that there is a real kind of attempt to rehabilitate those stupid costumes from the 60s because one of the things about them was you could never tell where the lizard ended and the armour began. 304 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:54.779 And, you know, they were fluffy. 305 00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:56.940 They had like fluffy bums and stuff like that. 306 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:03.359 And you could never, you know, like it was all a bit unclear and clearly no one in the production team really cared. 307 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:09.660 And here Gatis wants to kind of make him a bit more credible. 308 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:21.900 And I think, like, I think the fingers are pretty great, you know, like while Skaldax talking, and the voice, like it's some Nicholas Briggs again, doing a scary monster voice, and it sounds great. 309 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:23.339 He sounds so good. 310 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:34.980 Yeah, and I know that, um, I seem to remember, because as Mark's already pointed out, Stephen Moffatt was initially, because I know, I, from what I remember, Mark Gatis was very enthusiastic about bringing the ice warriors back. 311 00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.319 Um, and Stephen Moffatt was very resistant. 312 00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:43.500 I believe he said something to the effect of the ice Warriors are what non-fans think of as bad Doctor Who monsters. 313 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:45.900 Um, and, and... 314 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:47.400 That's the most amazing reason for that. 315 00:28:48.720 --> 00:29:00.119 And one of the things, and I do think it's interesting because I believe one of the things he singled in on was the voice because they have that kind of whispery kind of, I will get you, doctor, kind of voice to them. 316 00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:01.619 And that is one of the things they change. 317 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.099 They give them this kind of deeper growl to them. 318 00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:16.440 But similarly with the armour as well, which, you know, is in the classic series, is this very stiff, rigid kind of, I can't remember what it's made out of. 319 00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:18.720 It's like kind of it's fibre. 320 00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:21.059 It's fibre, like a massive hunk of fibre glass. 321 00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:22.980 It was made by a boat killer. 322 00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:32.579 But I did think it was interesting from, uh, because, you know, they don't up, you know, they update the design, but they kind of, they don't reimagine it. 323 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.180 They don't reinvent it in in the same way. 324 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.319 I don't know, they reinvent the macra, I guess, to go for another Trouton villain. 325 00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:54.240 But in this script, rather than run away from the run away from the suit, I suppose, there is a specific beat when, you know, the ice warrior leaves its suit. 326 00:29:54.240 --> 00:30:02.759 And there's a lot of emphasis put on how shameful that is for an ice warrior to leave the crummy Doctor Who costume. 327 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:07.859 It's like, this is the greatest shame you could possibly commit an ice warrior culture. 328 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:09.059 It's to live. 329 00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:12.960 Which I thought I did find interesting. 330 00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:21.599 And, you know, you see this later in the year in the 50th anniversary where, admittedly, this is a bit of a better monster design with the Zygons. 331 00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:24.480 They similarly don't feel the need to radically reinvent it. 332 00:30:24.539 --> 00:30:28.559 They can just kind of embrace it and just use more modern materials to update it. 333 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:33.480 It's nice that the, because this is, presumably, the oldest ice warrior that we've seen. 334 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:41.460 And he obviously waxes, whereas the later ones, they become a lot more body positive and they will just have that fur grow out of them. 335 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.579 So it's nice to see that growth, yeah. 336 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.299 Yeah. 337 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.700 I mean, Neil Gordon did say with his redesign. 338 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.099 Yeah, I'm not so sure about the child bearing hips. 339 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:51.779 Get rid of those. 340 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:53.160 Yeah, yeah. 341 00:30:53.220 --> 00:31:04.799 But I think part of what makes this such a success is both because Moffat had been objecting to the idea for so long and he and Mark Gatus are so close as colleagues. 342 00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:10.619 Mark has clearly made a note of the things Stephen doesn't like and it's like, okay, we're going to find out what's in the suit. 343 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:16.200 And we're going to make sure that, okay, they're not just lumbering and you can get away from them with a brisk walk. 344 00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:17.640 Like, it's a deadly machine. 345 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:21.960 And the hands are going to be more dextrous. 346 00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:23.160 All these little things. 347 00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:34.380 I think the other thing that made success to a success is that the spinoff media, the novels and big finish, had built up ice warrior culture so much. 348 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:42.059 But there's not much specifically that I can say, you know, Mark Gatis nicked that from the judgement of IsCar or whatever. 349 00:31:42.119 --> 00:32:03.900 Basically, the only thing he takes as a whole concept is the cast system, which Gary Russell introduced in legacy, but he takes the sort of ideas and the spirit that people have come up with in these spinoff media and goes, okay, well, we've kind of got a culture that's been developed for them. that, you know, they're highly, they're highly honourable. 350 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:08.339 They have this code where if you don't attack them, they won't attack you. 351 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:12.059 Like they're not conquerors out for resources or anything like that. 352 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:19.799 You know, it's it's all about the style of fighting and whether they see you as a worthy warrior or something to protect. 353 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:25.859 I think that's what kind of makes it because a don't like or a cyberman will kill you just because you're there. 354 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:26.819 Yeah. 355 00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:29.579 And Silurian will kill you because this is their planet. 356 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:38.039 Whereas the ice warrior will only kill you if you stick a cattle prod, um, uh, the geckoes have koackers. 357 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.740 The greatest events to like... 358 00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:44.640 Down to the left. 359 00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:49.619 What do we think of the CG head? 360 00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:55.440 Um, I remember being okay with it in 2013. 361 00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:06.059 I think I, I, I'm not sure how I feel about it now, but that's maybe, maybe it's unfair to kind of hold that to, you know, a post Disney. 362 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:07.440 Okay, fine. 363 00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:08.700 You know what I mean? 364 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:09.720 Like, it's fine. 365 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:33.839 Yeah, I mean, I have to say that Russell always had a thing about mouths, you know, the oud have a big kind of bundle of tentacles and stuff because then they can speak without them having to animate their mouths and he'd obviously been bitten by his experiences with the savine way back in the that very 1st shooting block. 366 00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:35.400 So this is the 1st time. 367 00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:43.680 I think they've attempted to do a CG monster and try to synchronise the speech with it and I don't think it's very successful. 368 00:33:43.740 --> 00:33:44.640 I have to say. 369 00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:45.720 It does look a bit crap. 370 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:53.700 Yeah, I think the problem that it, like, like full props too, is it, it's the milk, is it the milk that are doing the animation at this point? 371 00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:01.680 Um, like, full props to them for, you know, attempting to do a fully realised CGI alien face. 372 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:22.320 I think the one of the big problems it runs into is that in that final moment, there is supposed to be this kind of tension between what Skaldax choice is going to be when he returns to the ice warrior ship and the animation of his face is incredibly stiff. 373 00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:28.260 So there is absolutely no indication of any nuance between what his decision is going to be. 374 00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:42.179 So I think part of the reason why I was also a bit kind of, ah, is because the reveal comes at a moment where Skaldak is supposed to be having this big change of heart and you literally cannot see it on that CG rubber face. 375 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:43.500 Yeah. 376 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:52.019 Yeah, it's a it's a noble attempt because they even go to the trouble for that speech of motion capturing Nick Briggs to power the animation rig. 377 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:52.440 Yeah. 378 00:34:52.500 --> 00:35:00.480 But during the shoot of the scene where it's grabbed David Warner and you can kind of see it through the smoke. 379 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:03.300 They initially shot that with a facial puppet. 380 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:08.280 But then Milk said, actually, we think we can do this CG. 381 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:08.820 Right, okay. 382 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:16.199 So I haven't been able to find anything about where they thought the puppet was unsatisfactory and that's why and that's why they dropped it. 383 00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:30.119 But having seen, for instance, 90s Godzilla films, where they made a twice human size Godzilla head and torso, which was a, which was a rod and hydraulic operated puppet. 384 00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:35.579 And they use that for close-ups, and that gets amazing emotion out of a giant lizard. 385 00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:40.019 And that is a feature film, but it's not a Hollywood feature film. 386 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.239 Maybe the puppet was like that. 387 00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:43.019 I don't know. 388 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.599 I'd be very interested in seeing the footage of the pub. 389 00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:51.659 It's telling that the CG model never comes back in the Empress of Mars. 390 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:52.079 Yeah. 391 00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:52.679 Yeah. 392 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:53.039 Yeah. 393 00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:53.579 Yes. 394 00:35:53.639 --> 00:36:06.539 I do think the CGI is also partially harmed from the fact that you go from, you alternate between very obviously rubber hands to a very obviously CGI phase. 395 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:14.940 I think I think that kind of whiplash between very practical to very digital kind of affects it as well. 396 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.199 Not seamless. 397 00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:16.800 Yeah, yeah. 398 00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:20.460 I do like the way that when the helmet comes back over the face. 399 00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:21.900 It sort of tugs at it a little bit. 400 00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:35.280 Like it's like it's very tight and it sort of, you know, it's like when you if you take something off that's too tight and it sort of pulls your face up a bit and then that's quite well done and it helps to sell it a little bit, I think. imagine if you were standing in your work shoes for 5000 years. 401 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.420 It's a bit like the speeder bikes last week. 402 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:46.139 It's kind of like, oh, well, that didn't quite work, but I'm glad you tried. 403 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:47.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 404 00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:48.539 Look, no one died, right? 405 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.579 It's a bad Doctor Who effect. 406 00:36:52.079 --> 00:37:03.719 A shout out, by the way, to Spencer Wilding, who is the physical form of Scaldak in the suit, and he's previously been the minor tour in the God complex. 407 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.099 Oh, we like him. 408 00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:08.219 And the Wooden King in Doctor the Widow on the Wardrobe. 409 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:09.480 Oh, I like him. 410 00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:10.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 411 00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:23.460 But Nicholas Briggs was actually doing a theatre show at the time and recorded his lines in his dressing room, sent them down to Cardiff, and they played into the studio for Spencer to mime to. 412 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:24.239 Oh, wow. 413 00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:24.539 Okay. 414 00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:32.159 So, you know, it is an acting performance and he has to get into that bloody suit, however many hours at a time. 415 00:37:32.219 --> 00:37:32.940 You know what I mean? 416 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.800 Big shout out. 417 00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:45.179 I think he comes back for the Ice Warriors in Time of the Doctor and Empress of Mars as well because the suit is also made from his body cast. 418 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:46.619 So you put another actor. 419 00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:47.579 It's not gonna fit as well. 420 00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:50.159 Actually, it doesn't quite fit, does it? 421 00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:50.760 The mouth's too high. 422 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.320 But anyway, I digress. 423 00:37:52.739 --> 00:38:03.480 The suit itself was at the doctor experience for a while and it does look incredibly impressive in the flesh as well, as it were, is a cool, imposing looking thing. 424 00:38:03.539 --> 00:38:20.639 I do think there is a somewhat interesting, more something I realised in hindsight after Margatus went on to write the Empress of Mars, which I do think is probably the better ice warrior Margator story of the two. 425 00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:40.380 I do think there is a, in hindsight, I do think there is an, an interesting tension in the script wanting to do the Dalek style where reintroducing a kind of slightly odd Doctor Who monster and make it kind of gripping and terrifying and you have this claustrophobic setting. 426 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:43.679 You have the companion going in and confronting the monster. 427 00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:49.199 You have the monster, the reveal of what the monster is underneath the metallic. you have all that kind of stuff. 428 00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:57.599 The tension that Gaitas has is that he wants to do that, but I think he also wants to embrace the weirdness of the ice warriors as well. 429 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:06.599 Because, you know, I think some of the best writing is when you've got Skaldak reminiscing about the songs of the snow, of the red snow or whatever it is. 430 00:39:06.659 --> 00:39:10.139 And it's like strange and kind of weird. 431 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:33.239 And certainly I think when you get to Empress of Mars, You've got Margators fully embracing the kind of oddness of the ice Warriors, and specifically the oddness of the ice Warriors in the Paladin stories, which makes them much more vivid characters as opposed to here where they are kind of introduced as kind of militaristic Doctor Who monster. 432 00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:37.800 How many have there been in 50 years at this point? 433 00:39:37.860 --> 00:40:01.679 Um, I wonder if part of the problem is that the brief that we've been given, which is an exciting film of a particular genre in 42 minutes or so means that we end up with a story that isn't actually about anything. 434 00:40:01.739 --> 00:40:17.159 And there is such low hanging fruit with the idea of Cold War, and we certainly do talk about Cold War and mutually assured destruction, and it is the mutually assured destruction thing that kind of wins the day. 435 00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:21.539 But it seems very muddy to me in some ways. 436 00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:26.639 And I can't see a very, like, there's not a very clear parallel drawn. 437 00:40:26.699 --> 00:40:27.179 I don't think. 438 00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:31.619 For me, that parallel is drawn with Kreshenko. 439 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:42.840 Because Grushenko is clearly a scientist loyal to his own culture because he wants to bring this discovery home for the good of the Soviet Union. 440 00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:51.300 But at the same time, he's listening to Ultravox and Duran Duran and appreciating the culture of the West without judging it, without dismissing it. 441 00:40:51.360 --> 00:41:07.440 And so you have a character in there who is spared, by the way, because he is an understanding sympathetic character, and because he's saying all these people are human, and that lets Clara say to Scaldak, look, you know, where people, your people, just stop. 442 00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:19.139 Because I think what the plot fails to interact with is when Scaldak's got his finger on the bottom, the doctor says, well, look, I've got a red button as well, with a red light on his Sonic Screwdriver. 443 00:41:19.139 --> 00:41:22.800 And Clara never says to him, would you really have done that. 444 00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:26.699 But then again, you know, it's the trolly problem of Skaldate's going to destroy the planet. 445 00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:30.840 The doctor's like, well, I'm just going to destroy this small group of people on a submarine. 446 00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:35.099 And, you know, you got 2 vics standing over in the transporter. 447 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:40.500 But I love the idea that there is the trolly problem and then Scaldax trolly problem. 448 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:43.739 I like that we've got a philosophical variant here. 449 00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:47.760 My trolley's got nukes. 450 00:41:48.599 --> 00:42:01.800 But yeah, it's like, I often feel that Gator scripts aren't very deep, but I think with this one, he is at least trying to draw a parallel between the real Cold War and the Cold War happening here. 451 00:42:01.860 --> 00:42:10.980 And in a way, I think possibly too much gets cut out because there's so many little cuts here and we end up at 41 minutes with the credits and next time trailer. 452 00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:15.480 It's like maybe put some of that back in and let us get to know the characters a bit more. 453 00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:17.280 I think that's a good point. 454 00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:28.920 And I kind of think that articulates a bit better what I was trying to say about, you know, how there is this attempt to characterise the people on the Russian submarine, as not Russians, but other just other people. 455 00:42:28.980 --> 00:42:31.739 I think that I do think that gets much. 456 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:49.019 I think, as you say, Nathan, it gets muddied a little bit because a lot of the big moments which tap into the themes of a Cold War story, you know, the fingers on the button kind of thing, you know, nuclear Armageddon, uh, to, uh, all that kind of stuff. 457 00:42:49.079 --> 00:43:04.199 It feels like it's just tipping the hat to that kind of ideological tension and tipping its hat to the idea of a Cold War rather than engaging with that in any kind of substantial way, which is a little disappointing when you have a story that is literally called Cold War. 458 00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:13.260 Um, but I do, I do think there is, uh, there is a nuance that I gatus probably would have benefitted from teasing out a little bit more. 459 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:19.739 It would have been interesting to push the doctor because we know in the original version of the timeline. 460 00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.840 The war doctor did detonate the moment. 461 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:25.079 The ninth doctor couldn't do it in the parting of the ways. 462 00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:27.420 He says, you know, coward every time. 463 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.900 So the 11th doctor, would he have gone through with it? 464 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:41.400 If, you know, uh, if pushed, you know, what, what decision would have been made, it would have been interesting, uh, had the ice warrior ship not arrived to see which way that would have gone. 465 00:43:41.460 --> 00:43:48.119 Not that he would have blown them all up, but what, you know, if forced to kind of rationalise that decision, I suppose. 466 00:43:48.179 --> 00:43:52.139 But maybe that's what gets Clara thinking about it so that she intervenes in day of the doctor. 467 00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:56.340 Yeah, would have been great if, you know, we had like a title card. 468 00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.519 It's like introducing the War Lenin turning up right at the end. 469 00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:32.940 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. 470 00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:39.059 We'll be back next week to see what image of the Fender looks like in 2013, with Hyde. 471 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:59.280 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. 472 00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:02.280 Mark, where can people find you? 473 00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:06.360 So I'm on Twitter as at Quark McMullis. 474 00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:11.159 You can find me on the Trap One podcast and occasionally on the aforementioned maximum power. 475 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.920 And Jack, where can people find you? 476 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:20.159 As I am very fond of saying, if people are so inclined, you can follow me on Twitter at Shack Janahan. 477 00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:22.619 I nearly said.com there for some reason. 478 00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:23.940 That is not a separate website. 479 00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:35.880 Um, and you can also follow myself and Joe Ford, uh, whose name is very familiar, uh, at uh, podcast, the Naimon be Praised, which can be found at at Naimon Podcast. 480 00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:43.199 Until next time, remember that it's never a good idea to start melting that block of ice before the opening credits kick in. 481 00:45:43.260 --> 00:45:45.840 Thank you very much for listening, and good night. 482 00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:46.739 Good night. 483 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:47.579 Goodbye. 484 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:48.599 Good night. 485 00:45:52.559 --> 00:46:00.480 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, Mark McManison, Jack Shanahan. theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 486 00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:06.300 This episode, Fluffy Bums, was recorded on the 12th of July 2022 and released on the 18th of September. 487 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:14.519 David Warner died at the age of 80 just a fortnight after we recorded this episode. 488 00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:26.880 So remember sometimes during the week to pour one out for Chancellor Gorkon, the unbound doctor, Lord Asloc, Professor Grasenko, and Jordan Perry in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, The Secret of the Ooze. 489 00:46:29.940 --> 00:46:32.760 Just hold this hold the thought for a second. 490 00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:37.679 We're going to have to wind up. 491 00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:41.280 Um, I thought the other one wasn't due until 830. 492 00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:42.539 No, no, 8.15. 493 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:43.739 Oh, I beg your pardon. 494 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.440 They're just talking on the other thread, just to say. 495 00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:52.260 Okay. 496 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:54.000 I think we need an out. 497 00:46:54.059 --> 00:46:57.719 I think I have a thing, because I think we've done everything, haven't we? 498 00:46:57.900 --> 00:46:59.880 At some point... 499 00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:11.099 I think probably in Hyde, we will end up talking about Matt's performance a bit because I think there's not very much to say and I didn't think there was much to say about this, to be honest, but here we are. 500 00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:12.360 I think we've done very well. 501 00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:15.420 We talk about hads. 502 00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:19.500 We did mention the hats as a trout and throwback. 503 00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:20.219 I think that's okay. 504 00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:26.340 I wonder if part of the problem is...