WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:46:21 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.899 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety 2 00:00:39.899 --> 00:00:43.560 the only Doctor Who podcast that's read with the blood of 3 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:44.100 humanity. 4 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.560 We really should go and have a bath. 5 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:48.299 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:49.259 I'm Brendan. 7 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:50.280 I'm Mark. 8 00:00:50.340 --> 00:00:51.240 And I'm Jack. 9 00:00:51.299 --> 00:00:53.460 Well, it's 1983. 10 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:58.079 Margaret Thatcher has just been reelected, Ultravox's 1st breakup 11 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:02.579 is still 4 years away, and somewhere in BBC Television Centre 12 00:01:02.579 --> 00:01:06.180 Peter, Mark, and Janitor shooting the final episode of Warriors of 13 00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:06.659 the Deep. 14 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:10.079 So have we learnt anything about how to make top quality Doctor 15 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:14.879 Who in the last 30 years, let's find out as we discuss Cold War. 16 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.439 So, I have a feeling that this is very, very, very early on in 17 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.560 Jenna Coleman's career in Doctor Who. 18 00:01:37.620 --> 00:01:40.560 Is this the 1st episode she shoots or the 2nd? 19 00:01:40.620 --> 00:01:43.140 It's certainly long before snowman, is that right? 20 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:44.519 Yeah, that's right. 21 00:01:44.579 --> 00:01:47.159 So this is the 2nd episode she shoots. 22 00:01:47.219 --> 00:01:51.540 So they have just shot Hyde, and during production of this, Matt 23 00:01:51.540 --> 00:01:56.819 was rushing off to shoot pickups for Hyde, and also rushing off to 24 00:01:56.819 --> 00:02:00.959 do additional dialogue recording for the power of 3 with Karen and 25 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:01.439 Arthur. 26 00:02:01.500 --> 00:02:02.280 Oh my god. 27 00:02:02.340 --> 00:02:05.640 So while this is going on, he's working with all his companions on 28 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:09.060 various things because the complete history doesn't go into detail 29 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:12.180 on this particular entry, but it is because of the massive 30 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:16.379 restructuring needed for the power of 3 because Stephen Burkoff is 31 00:02:16.379 --> 00:02:16.979 mad. 32 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.319 He refused to do his job. 33 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:22.800 Yeah, as we have mentioned earlier this year. 34 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:24.659 And on Bonfinger. 35 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:29.280 Douglas McKinnon was having to do some work as well, wasn't he, on 36 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:30.780 the power of 3 while he was working on this as well? 37 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:31.979 Oh, okay. 38 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:33.240 Because he did both of those. 39 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:34.259 Is that true? 40 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:34.680 Yeah. 41 00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:35.039 Yeah. 42 00:02:35.099 --> 00:02:39.000 And that's part of the reason they waited until now to do those 43 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:40.080 ADR pickups. 44 00:02:40.139 --> 00:02:45.000 Okay. as well as assessing the damage, basically, because in TV 45 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:48.180 you know, once you realise something isn't working, you don't 46 00:02:48.180 --> 00:02:51.659 necessarily immediately order a pickup, you figure out how much of 47 00:02:51.659 --> 00:02:54.180 it isn't working to know how much you have to reshoot. 48 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:58.680 That temporal displacement for Matt Smith feels very appropriate 49 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.439 for this episode, given the presence of Tobias Menzies in this 50 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:01.740 episode. 51 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:05.759 It's like Matt Smith's career, past, present, and future, and very 52 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:07.800 very far in the future and the crown happening all at once. 53 00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:09.180 Yeah, yeah. 54 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:11.159 So we have the 2 Prince Phillips. 55 00:03:11.219 --> 00:03:15.240 And we have Prince Charles getting killed before the opening 56 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.680 credits by Scaldak. 57 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:21.840 I wanted to call him Maldak. 58 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:22.740 No, no. 59 00:03:22.740 --> 00:03:24.419 Is that a character from Vengeance on Faros? 60 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:25.020 Yeah, yeah. 61 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.319 Yeah, he's the one who is the lead cannibal in Torchwood after 62 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:28.560 that. 63 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:29.759 Oh, okay. 64 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:30.539 Owen Teal. 65 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:35.759 That's delightful So how do we feel about Jenna, this episode? 66 00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:42.900 Well, what really struck me about this episode is that it feels, at 67 00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:47.039 least Clara on the page still feels like Clara Oswald being 68 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:51.840 written to like an audition brief, essentially, which is that we 69 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:56.219 want an actor who can keep up pace with Matt Smith in the dialogue 70 00:03:56.219 --> 00:03:56.699 department. 71 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:00.780 So, you know, there are lots of scenes where, um, you know 72 00:04:00.780 --> 00:04:04.139 particularly at the beginning when the uh, submarine is sinking 73 00:04:04.139 --> 00:04:07.379 you have all these like snappy little back and forth between Jenna 74 00:04:07.379 --> 00:04:11.879 and Matt and it doesn't really change throughout the episode. 75 00:04:11.939 --> 00:04:15.659 And, um, so it feels like Jenna's Coleman's been given the 76 00:04:15.659 --> 00:04:18.420 singular objective of keeping up pace with Matt Smith throughout 77 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:21.480 the episode, which, as it turns out, because Jenna Coleman is a 78 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.240 wonderful actor, she does with great aplomb. 79 00:04:24.300 --> 00:04:28.259 It's interesting for her character arg that this is the story 80 00:04:28.259 --> 00:04:32.459 where she gets to grip with how to handle fear, given where she 81 00:04:32.459 --> 00:04:35.579 ends up, where she's very fearless and reckless, that, you know 82 00:04:35.579 --> 00:04:40.079 it's the tips from the older character about how he handles fear 83 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:41.519 by singing and things like that. 84 00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:44.040 She's very afraid in this one. 85 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.920 And I think it's probably a counterpoint of the people who find 86 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:50.100 her a bit too smug and fearless a lot of the time. 87 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:52.500 This, you know, when she sees the dead bodies and she says, well 88 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:56.279 this, this suddenly got very real, didn't it, that it isn't just 89 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:57.060 like a jolly romp. 90 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:03.240 But what I remembered when I watched it, again, was after the 91 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.420 Rings of Akitan went out the week before, Paul Cornell tweeted 92 00:05:06.420 --> 00:05:08.399 hello, the new Sarah Jane. 93 00:05:08.459 --> 00:05:11.399 And then when you watch this episode, that's really reinforced 94 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:15.180 because she goes through 2 sort of big Sarah Jane moments where 95 00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:19.079 she questions how they can understand Russian in this case. 96 00:05:19.139 --> 00:05:24.779 And she also says, well, we know the world didn't end in 1983. 97 00:05:25.019 --> 00:05:25.560 Is it? 98 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:27.360 Why is it cool? 99 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:30.779 So, so why does it matter what we do? 100 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:34.259 And that sort of reinforced, you know, the idea that that, you 101 00:05:34.259 --> 00:05:37.019 know, maybe they're going for a modern day Sarah Jane with Clara? 102 00:05:37.259 --> 00:05:42.360 I think that there is a kind of thing where she is really 103 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:43.259 generic. 104 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:48.480 You remember when Bob Holmes 1st writes for Perry and the 6th 105 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:53.519 doctor in the 2 doctors, Perry's like frighteningly generic, I 106 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:57.060 think, there's not very much to her beyond her performance. 107 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.519 And that's often what the classic series does. 108 00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:03.360 And it's a little bit unusual for the new series that has really 109 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:07.379 very strongly defined characters to have someone kind of be as 110 00:06:07.379 --> 00:06:09.180 generic as Jenna. 111 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:13.920 And like, I think she does do one or 2 things that are unusual. 112 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:18.420 I think the way she volunteers to speak to the ice warrior when 113 00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:23.579 neither the captain nor the doctor can get away with doing it and 114 00:06:23.579 --> 00:06:27.480 she kind of volunteers and goes in and does it and even sort of 115 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:28.139 takes over. 116 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:32.160 She's being directed, isn't she, by Matt, but she, you know, does 117 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:33.240 some of her own things. 118 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:38.939 And then the other striking thing that she does is the doctor says 119 00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:39.600 stay here. 120 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.399 And she sort of says, yeah, all right. 121 00:06:41.459 --> 00:06:44.579 And then he goes, no, no, really actually stay here. 122 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:46.259 Yeah, sure, like whatever. 123 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:50.519 And so she doesn't, you know, but she's, even that is defining her 124 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.139 against the companion role. 125 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:55.259 She is very, very definitely the new companion here. 126 00:06:55.620 --> 00:07:01.079 It's interesting because throughout the drafts of this script, she 127 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.980 slowly becomes more involved in the plot. 128 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:10.800 So for Mark Gatis's original write-up, 1st of all, she was still 129 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.720 Beryl, the Victorian governess. 130 00:07:13.500 --> 00:07:17.879 And so there was going to be a lot of sort of things of, you know 131 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.360 Beryl would have a clever moment where she figures out that the 132 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:25.079 Cold War is possibly a result of action in the Crimea in her 133 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:25.560 time. 134 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:28.860 She's like, well, if the Crimea situation blows up, that could 135 00:07:28.860 --> 00:07:29.459 lead to this. 136 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:33.540 But it was things like the doctor was the one who went to talk to 137 00:07:33.540 --> 00:07:34.319 Scaldak. 138 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:38.279 Beryl was left alone in a room to protect her, but then the ice 139 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:40.860 warrior comes in like with Victoria. 140 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:43.259 And it was sort of with each subsequent draft. 141 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:44.279 She was given more to do. 142 00:07:44.339 --> 00:07:47.819 So yeah, I think part of the reason Gator's kind of right, so 143 00:07:47.819 --> 00:07:50.819 generically, is it all he had to go on with Jenna's audition 144 00:07:50.819 --> 00:07:51.300 tape? 145 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:54.899 Because when he was writing, she hadn't filmed anything yet. 146 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:59.339 And it seems like a lot of the action she's given such as talking 147 00:07:59.339 --> 00:08:03.899 to Skaldak came about with discussions with Stephen Moffat and 148 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:05.279 later with General Louise Coleman herself. 149 00:08:05.339 --> 00:08:08.579 Like apparently at the read-through is when the decision was made 150 00:08:08.579 --> 00:08:10.500 that she would talk to Scaldak. 151 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:14.879 Like, it was already on the cards, but they're like, Matt, Jenner 152 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:15.420 what do you think? 153 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:15.959 Who should do this? 154 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.060 And Jenna said, well, well, I'm up for it. 155 00:08:18.180 --> 00:08:19.920 Matt said, well, she should do it because she's only just 156 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:20.339 started. 157 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:23.399 And I like that this is the 1st time that she admits that she's 158 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:27.180 scared because as much as what's gone on in the last 2 episodes 159 00:08:27.180 --> 00:08:29.100 you know, in Bells of St. 160 00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:30.779 John, she's in London. 161 00:08:30.779 --> 00:08:32.220 In Rings of Acha 10. 162 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:36.539 She only faces real physical danger when she rushes into it. 163 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:37.139 Yeah. 164 00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:38.100 In this situation. 165 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:40.860 She's been plonked in it, and she's got no choice but to face it. 166 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.279 So it's kind of building up the danger towards the character. 167 00:08:44.340 --> 00:08:48.720 And with what you said, Mark, about sort of her later risky 168 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:54.240 behaviour, there is actually a deleted line where the doctor asks 169 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:57.659 you know, how are you after dealing with the scaldax situation? 170 00:08:57.659 --> 00:09:01.860 And she basically says that was terrifying and I felt so alive. 171 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.139 And I kind of read that. 172 00:09:04.139 --> 00:09:07.679 I'm like, 0 my god, that's faced the Raven 3 years early, that 173 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:07.919 is. 174 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:11.159 And it's not the, it's actually not the only thing that was 175 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:14.340 dropped from this that will be recycled in series nine, but I'll 176 00:09:14.340 --> 00:09:14.940 come back to that later. 177 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:31.139 I have to say that I think that this might be the point where I 178 00:09:31.139 --> 00:09:38.519 kind of lose it with the standalone movie style premises for the 179 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:39.000 series. 180 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:44.039 And I think that they were, you know, they were very clearly a 181 00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:49.860 reaction against the very complex plotting in series 6 and to a 182 00:09:49.860 --> 00:09:51.480 lesser extent in series 5. 183 00:09:51.779 --> 00:09:56.940 And I think because we were working towards the 50th anniversary 184 00:09:56.940 --> 00:09:59.399 thing and because we were splitting the season over 2 years. 185 00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:03.000 He just decided to kind of pull back a little bit. 186 00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:07.559 And that worked very well, I think, in the 1st half of the season 187 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:14.100 because there is an arc, and the arc is about Rory and Amy kind of 188 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:18.840 growing out of the doctor, like growing away from him, and that 189 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.100 relationship changing. 190 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:26.399 Here, you've got a character who has a mystery to her. 191 00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:31.559 We've seen her twice already, but because that's a kind of red 192 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:36.779 herring, you know, Moffatt likes to leave the answers to his 193 00:10:36.779 --> 00:10:38.700 mysteries lying in plain sight. 194 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:42.720 And next week will be told by Jessica Rain that in fact, you know 195 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:44.220 she is just a normal person. 196 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:49.200 And so there's a real kind of genericness and a real kind of 197 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:53.100 reluctance to pin her down with any sort of particular 198 00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:54.360 characteristics. 199 00:10:54.419 --> 00:10:59.639 And so, you know, I think that that is a throwback to the classic 200 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:04.799 series, and it is, I think, why Cornell called her, the Sarah Jane 201 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:09.480 for the Modern era, or something, because Sarah Jane has a three 202 00:11:08.460 --> 00:11:14.639 line bio, but basically is Elizabeth Slayton's performance. 203 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:16.980 And I'm not complaining. 204 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:18.480 I love Jenna's performance generally. 205 00:11:18.539 --> 00:11:22.139 You know, I think she's really great and I like her in this, but I 206 00:11:22.139 --> 00:11:26.340 just find this a little bit less satisfying because it goes for 40 207 00:11:26.340 --> 00:11:27.720 minutes and then doesn't go anywhere. 208 00:11:27.779 --> 00:11:29.580 I'm watching the wrong show. 209 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:31.320 Am I watching the wrong show? 210 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:36.000 I think the, probably, probably works well in season 7B as well 211 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.179 because the, the sort of arc because it was broadcast in the 50th 212 00:11:39.179 --> 00:11:42.840 anniversary year is to have sort of the rings of Aka 10, It's got 213 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:44.159 some 1st doctor callbacks, doesn't it? 214 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:46.139 where it's the 1st time he mentions being a grandfather for a long 215 00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:46.440 time. 216 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:50.460 It's quite heavy on the exploration earlier on in the episode 217 00:11:50.460 --> 00:11:53.639 which is like Hart and all, then this has got the HAD system, the 218 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:55.440 Ice Warriors, the base under siege. 219 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.919 And next week we've got a scientific advisor and a metabolist 220 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:00.659 crystal and a country house. 221 00:12:00.659 --> 00:12:04.620 And it sort of goes on like that way, each episode is a little of 222 00:12:04.620 --> 00:12:06.120 a mild homage to each one. 223 00:12:06.179 --> 00:12:11.100 So having maybe a more 20th century style companion fits with that 224 00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:12.539 for the time being as well in some way. 225 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:13.679 Yeah. 226 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:18.240 I suppose what occurs to me about, because, you know, the whole 227 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:22.379 gimmick of series 7 as a whole is that it's like movie of the week 228 00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:22.980 kind of thing. 229 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:28.440 Um, uh, and I feel what occurs to me in the transition between 230 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:33.240 series 7 A and series 7 B is that you go from, in series 7 A, of 231 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:34.620 like movie of the week. 232 00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:39.240 And I think here, because maybe it's because it's in 2013, and, you 233 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:42.539 know, it's got the whole anniversary year kind of feel to it. 234 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:48.120 It goes from being movie of the week to the most movie version of 235 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.159 this particular type of Doctor Who story. 236 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:54.720 In this case, the most movie version of a base under siege story 237 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.139 of a Trouton based under siege, complete with ice warriors and 238 00:12:58.139 --> 00:12:58.379 everything. 239 00:12:58.500 --> 00:12:59.879 Yeah. 240 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:00.659 Yeah. 241 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.059 And like, I think it does a reasonably good job of that. 242 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.179 Yeah, yeah, it's it's incredibly entertaining. 243 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:11.340 When I arrived here tonight, 1st thing I said to Nathan was, I'm 3 244 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:15.600 for 3 on enjoying this episode a lot more than I did last time. 245 00:13:15.659 --> 00:13:17.159 The Todd experience. 246 00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:18.000 Tod experience. 247 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.159 Good God, Cold War. 248 00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:25.980 You know, I'm going to have to grow my hair out. 249 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:34.379 Yeah, it's breathless and nonstop and sort of looking back on it. 250 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:37.919 I can't think of that many major time jumps, you know, it's things 251 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:40.320 like, oh, I'll go in and talk to him. 252 00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:41.399 No, no, absolutely not. 253 00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:43.980 You're not doing that, Clara standing in front of an open door. 254 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:44.820 Yeah, of course. 255 00:13:45.419 --> 00:13:49.080 There's no kind of, okay, this is what we're going to do, slow 256 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.899 fade, and they've set up like the bucket of feathers above the 257 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:54.299 door, kind of booby trap nonsense. 258 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.620 And even though it is playing on old tropes. 259 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.440 Hi, Simon, it wears them very much on its sleeve. 260 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:03.840 So, you know, the monster in the ice as well as being the ice 261 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.460 warriors, it's the thing from another world. 262 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:06.240 Yeah. 263 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.840 Hunt for Red October. is present throughout. 264 00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:12.059 You've got the base under siege. 265 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:14.639 But instead of the intransigent base commander, you've got the 266 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:16.860 intransigent base subcommander. 267 00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:17.580 Yeah, yeah. 268 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:22.620 You know, um, uh, like Zukov is understandably suspicious of the 269 00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:26.279 doctor, but as soon as there's enough evidence to go, oh, actually 270 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:29.279 no, this guy's probably telling the truth, like, okay, you know 271 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:30.179 how to get us out of this. 272 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:31.379 Get us out of this. 273 00:14:31.500 --> 00:14:37.740 Whereas, um, Steppishin is like, not suspicious all the way 274 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:39.059 through, et cetera, et cetera. 275 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.519 I'd forgotten he dies off screen. 276 00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:45.000 I thought he was kind of with the ice warrior at the end going, no 277 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:46.320 no, we're going to blow up the world together. 278 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:50.580 And it's one area where I think the breakneck pace sort of falls 279 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:52.379 apart because he just kind of disappears. 280 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:57.240 But also in his little in his little wallet, he's got a photo of 281 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.460 presumably his girlfriend and a photo of Lenin. 282 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:00.840 The 2 loves of his life. 283 00:15:00.899 --> 00:15:02.039 That's nice. 284 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:02.940 Isn't that sweet? 285 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:04.440 We don't know which is which. 286 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:06.360 Like in what way, but that's fine. 287 00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:06.960 There you go. 288 00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:08.100 I like to think it's Lenin. 289 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:13.799 That's a better story My dearly departed Lenin. 290 00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:23.100 So you might have expected Zukov to be the one that died as well 291 00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:26.639 because he is the reasonable one that the doctor can communicate 292 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.460 with and be replaced by Steppishin, who he's going to have a much 293 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:30.659 harder time convincing. 294 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.720 So it's that is a slight sort of difference to the formula as well 295 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:34.139 isn't it? 296 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:38.100 But the quality of those actors as well, that they've got Liam 297 00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:40.559 Cunningham and Tobias. 298 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:42.659 Is it Bias Menzies, yeah. 299 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:44.279 I think it's Menzies. 300 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.419 Sometimes you see Menzes is pronounced Mingus, isn't it? 301 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.580 But I don't know if that's a Celtic thing or something like that. 302 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.679 And they've seen... 303 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:53.639 Yeah, I don't know how he pronounced. 304 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:55.320 I'm just thinking of Australian Prime Ministers here. 305 00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:56.519 So I don't know. 306 00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:57.120 Yeah, yeah. 307 00:15:57.179 --> 00:16:00.419 We had a very long-term Australian Prime Minister in a second. 308 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:01.019 La longest. 309 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:02.159 It was a very long time. 310 00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:02.940 Very long time. 311 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:08.100 For me, this was before I saw Liam Cunningham and Tobias Menzies 312 00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:08.820 in Game of Thrones. 313 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:09.360 Right. 314 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:13.320 And Liam Cunningham plays one of my favourite characters in Game 315 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:15.779 of Thrones, who is a sea captain. 316 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.899 So it's interesting to have him here doing that as well. 317 00:16:19.019 --> 00:16:24.000 Something I felt a little disappointed by watching this a 2nd time 318 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:28.259 in Stargate in season four, 1st episode. 319 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:33.179 It opens with a sequence on board a Russian submarine done 320 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:37.080 entirely in Russian and not translated, no subtitles or anything 321 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.419 and then they get attacked by a monster and that's the last you 322 00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:39.840 see of them. 323 00:16:39.899 --> 00:16:43.500 And I'm kind of like, it would have been really interesting to 324 00:16:43.500 --> 00:16:46.980 have those opening scenes with the Russians going through the 325 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:50.220 drill in Russian until the Tartar arrives. 326 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:53.460 I get, look, I get why they didn't. 327 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.700 Well, they just didn't want to do Hunt for Red October, which is 328 00:16:56.700 --> 00:16:58.139 exactly what happens in Hunt for real. 329 00:16:58.200 --> 00:16:59.159 Yeah, that's a good point, actually. 330 00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:00.899 So they probably didn't want to do that. 331 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:07.140 And I think too, it's actually kind of cute that perhaps we think 332 00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:11.160 about Clara speaking in Russian for the 1st time when she claims 333 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.059 not to speak in Russian in that bit that you alluded to before 334 00:17:15.059 --> 00:17:19.680 Mark, where she's sort of surprised by her ability to speak and 335 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.500 understand Russian and doesn't quite believe that she's doing it. 336 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.160 And I think we want to not hang a hat on it because of course the 337 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.460 TARDIS disappears quite early on in the episode, but leaves them 338 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:32.339 still completely able to understand and speak Russian. 339 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.460 So I think that's one we just don't want to press too hard on 340 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:36.059 probably. 341 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:36.839 Yeah, yeah. 342 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:41.160 And also there was a cut line where while Clara is asking all 343 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:43.259 these questions about why she can speak it points at Lee and 344 00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:45.059 Cunningham and says them, why does he have an accent? 345 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:46.859 right. 346 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.279 That's one of my favourite things, though, of course, is where 347 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:53.880 they use sort of regional accents or different classes of accents 348 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:55.319 in English to represent. 349 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:57.000 Yeah, yeah, that's right. 350 00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.900 Yeah, he's actually like has Nanette ancestry or something. 351 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:01.980 Yeah, you know. 352 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:05.819 One of my favourite films is The Death of Stalin. 353 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:13.380 Um, and I remember Armando Ianucci talking about um, why uh, he 354 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:18.299 allowed this real diverse ensemble of British and American actors 355 00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:21.420 to play these Russian figures from history in their natural voices 356 00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:26.279 because he said to instruct them to speak in a generic Russian 357 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:31.200 accent or all have one uniform accent doesn't really represent, you 358 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.380 know, the Soviet Union, because the Soviet Union is a hugely 359 00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:38.400 diverse region with a lot of diverse acc and languages. 360 00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.940 So he thought that actually allowing all the actors to speak in 361 00:18:41.940 --> 00:18:46.319 their natural dialects is actually more truthful to Russia itself 362 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:49.619 if you're doing an English translation of the whole Soviet Union. 363 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.000 You just can't get actors to do that sort of cod Russian accent to 364 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.319 represent me in Russian. 365 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:56.460 Either, can you? 366 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:57.599 I mean it's so stupid. 367 00:18:57.660 --> 00:19:02.279 And like, maybe we're just sort of surprised by it because it used 368 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.019 to be the rule. 369 00:19:04.019 --> 00:19:08.759 Like, you just used to have it, just not to mention Bondfinger, but 370 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.700 in an episode of Bondfinger, that we're going to record quite 371 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:12.180 soon. 372 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.539 There are all these English actors doing these outrageous French 373 00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:20.220 accents to represent conversations in French between French 374 00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:22.680 speaking people and it just looks stupid. 375 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.279 So I think they make the right call. 376 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:31.380 And, of course, part of the point of this episode is the just the 377 00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:32.640 massive overcasting. 378 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.539 You know, you've got these incredibly great actors up against this 379 00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:39.539 wretched space lizard. 380 00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:44.039 And I just think that's one of the best things about it. 381 00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:48.480 I'd forgotten James Norton's in this as well, who's become a much 382 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:52.920 bigger name since this episode went out to the extent that he's 383 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.700 been talked about as a potential future bond as well. a relatively 384 00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:57.720 small part in this one. 385 00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:00.359 Yeah, he's the leading Grantchester, isn't he? 386 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:02.400 Yeah, I think so. 387 00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:06.240 Happy Valley and you've been in a couple of movies and things as 388 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:06.839 well since then. 389 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.940 Because at 1st in the low lighting, I thought, no, no, he's way 390 00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:13.140 too young to be Jason Fleming. 391 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:13.500 No. 392 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:16.559 He does look a bit like Jason Fleming. 393 00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:23.819 One thing that I did, which, again, it kind of gets at my somewhat 394 00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:26.579 difficulty with the characterisation in this story, because I 395 00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:31.980 think it is all fairly surface level, if I'm honest, I think it is 396 00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:34.319 fair. fairly superficial characterisation. 397 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:35.400 There's not much depth to it. 398 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:39.299 But one thing I did kind of appreciate is that for a story that 399 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:43.079 deals with, you know, you've got the archetypal base commander 400 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.680 you've got the archetypal sort of lieutenant, lieutenant who's a 401 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:48.839 bit kind of, no, we... 402 00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:54.180 I did appreciate that it did stray away from the kind of cliche 403 00:20:54.180 --> 00:20:59.640 Russian Soviet villainous of that it could have gone for. 404 00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:03.660 I did actually quite like Liam Cunningham's speech about how, you 405 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:06.599 know, they have a responsibility, not just they have a 406 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:07.740 responsibility for the world. 407 00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:10.200 And, you know, that for humanity. 408 00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:12.839 And, you know, again, it's not to suggest that there's anything 409 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.180 too revolutionary happening there. 410 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:20.640 I did appreciate the gesture to, oh, you know, these are people 411 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.339 you know, they're not just purely archetypes. 412 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:25.619 They love their children too, bread. 413 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:26.519 Yeah. 414 00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:45.420 Can we talk about the big cast member whom we've only just 415 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:47.579 mentioned, and that is David Warner? 416 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:48.420 Yeah. 417 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.720 Yeah, I mean, he was another surprise to me coming back. 418 00:21:51.779 --> 00:21:56.400 Like my memory. was that basically he just had a couple of jokes 419 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:56.759 you know. 420 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.539 Yeah, we've wasted David Water and I said that a couple of weeks 421 00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:05.819 ago. actually. when I was referring to, you know, Celia Imory 422 00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:08.460 taking on the David Warner role, but actually having stuff to do. 423 00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:12.839 Is that what we're referring you to from now on, the David Water 424 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:13.259 roll? 425 00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:15.779 David Waterroll. 426 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.339 But the fascinating thing is watching it back, you know, he gets 427 00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:25.859 to lighten the mood in the teaser and introduce this idea that all 428 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:26.940 of these people are people. 429 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:28.319 Yeah, you know. 430 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:32.759 And he forms a bit of a friendship with Clara and there's all 431 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:36.960 those bits where he's trying to get her to relax about the 432 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:37.559 situation. 433 00:22:37.619 --> 00:22:41.640 And that wonderful bit where you think that he's going to go rogue 434 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:44.519 and kind of interrogate Clara and will have to be clobbered with a 435 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:45.059 torch or something. 436 00:22:45.059 --> 00:22:47.220 And he's just like, well, Ultravox state together. 437 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:51.299 The thing is, like, I did remember that moment, but in my head 438 00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:53.759 it's like Clara starts laughing and he doesn't understand why 439 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.500 she's laughing because he's actually very serious. 440 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:59.220 But no, you watch it again and he's like, no, that is totally to 441 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:01.619 get you to focus on the hero now. 442 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:06.119 And it's really well done in a way that I think only David Warner 443 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:06.660 can bring that. 444 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.319 And I do have something interesting about his casting. 445 00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.500 Because this was another idea that was dropped. 446 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:18.599 So, like, the original script had the Russian sub going to a 447 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.960 scientific research base, and David Warner was the only person 448 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.140 left alive and brought back this Ice Warrior. 449 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:28.380 The thing is, though, he was bringing it back because he'd already 450 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:31.380 reported it to Moscow and they wanted the Ice Warrior. 451 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.660 So he killed everyone else on board the base. 452 00:23:33.779 --> 00:23:35.400 So he's the villain, right? 453 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:39.480 Mark Gator sends, um, well, he's writing the script because he 454 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.319 knows David Warner asks him, hey, I want you in my Doctor Who 455 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:43.680 story. 456 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:46.259 It's this scientist who finds an iceware and Dave is like, oh yeah 457 00:23:46.259 --> 00:23:46.619 great, great. 458 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.559 And as the script went through, it like lost all these details. 459 00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.440 So it was going to be a British sub looking for them, lost that. 460 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:56.099 And one of the details it lost was Grushenko being the villain. 461 00:23:56.099 --> 00:24:00.119 And then David gets the final script and comes up to Mark and he's 462 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.180 like, oh, look, you know, this is a really great part and I'm 463 00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:05.220 really glad not to be playing a villain this time. 464 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:09.660 So him being the villain is the thing I'm referring to earlier 465 00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:13.740 that Mark Gatas then recycles in Sleep No More. 466 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:15.000 Ah, yeah. 467 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.460 It's Rasmussen's plot in sleep no more. 468 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.920 And I've just found that really interesting that obviously Mark 469 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:22.859 Gatis has gone, oh, okay, not going to include that this time. 470 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:24.779 File it away and do it here. 471 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:28.920 That would have been quite a creepy ending for Sleep No More, where 472 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.559 it's, you know, it's David Water, who's rubbing his eyes and 473 00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:33.119 they're disintegrating it to sand. 474 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:39.240 There's one beautiful bit where Clara says, are we going to be 475 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.000 okay or is everything going to be all right and he just reassures 476 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:42.480 her. 477 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:45.240 He just openly says, yes, everything's going to be fine. 478 00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:47.880 And it's like the doctor's job to normally do that. 479 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.240 And usually this doctor at least will acknowledge that he's 480 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:54.779 telling a lie, or that he's just kind of making it up, but he's so 481 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:58.799 absolutely kind of sincere and heartfelt when he says it. 482 00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:01.500 I thought it was really kind of striking. 483 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:02.519 Yeah, yeah. 484 00:25:02.579 --> 00:25:06.720 I mean, he's the one who's being threatened that, and Clara calls 485 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:08.339 Scaldak off. 486 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:13.019 Like, Scarlac's about to kill him and Clara kind of rescues him 487 00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:14.039 which I think is pretty great. 488 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:17.220 And we've already found out like a couple of scenes ago, what that 489 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:17.700 entails. 490 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:20.339 If Scaldac's going to kill you. 491 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:21.119 Cut up. 492 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:22.380 Yeah, it's not pleasant. 493 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:22.980 Dismantled. 494 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:23.220 Yeah. 495 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:29.099 Can we talk about the Ice Warriors or the Ice Warrior? 496 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:32.819 It's always been my feeling that they are supremely low effort 497 00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:38.460 villains, and I think it's Xander who says that they're robot 498 00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:41.039 lizards from Mars or something, for God's sake. 499 00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:44.099 I mean, it couldn't be less imaginative, probably. 500 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.180 How do you feel they come across here though? 501 00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:52.440 I think it's interesting because yeah, you read the complete 502 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.640 history and Stephen Moffat was resisting having the back, but for 503 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.240 that reason, that they are a very stereotypical Doctor Who 504 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:00.779 villain. 505 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:02.940 They're sort of big green men from Mars, like you say. 506 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.980 So it feels like to some extent, Margatus is working hard, as Rob 507 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:11.700 Sheaman did with Dalek, to make them credible again, but to prove 508 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.299 to Stephen Moffat that they can be a good recurring villain 509 00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:15.720 almost. 510 00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:19.559 So, uh, he really sort of, um, I mean, you get some of the, some 511 00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:21.779 of the beats from Dalek where it's chained up and things. 512 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:26.039 But I think he does a really good job of bringing them back like 513 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:26.279 that. 514 00:26:26.339 --> 00:26:30.299 And I think some of the dialogue, like the, by the moons and stuff 515 00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:34.079 like that, it stops just short of being Galaxy Quest, doesn't it 516 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:34.500 work? 517 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:38.279 while giving them a bit of colour and a bit of their own culture 518 00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:41.640 when he talks about the songs of the red sands and all that kind 519 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:41.940 of stuff. 520 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.339 It's a nice little bit of world building. 521 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.519 And I think, again, there was some stuff cut where they talked 522 00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:52.019 about the final battle that he's on his way home from with that 523 00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:53.880 which is in the book. 524 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.940 The doctor, his lives and times. 525 00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.279 So I'd access some of that stuff. 526 00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:02.759 So it's in there and it talks about this battle where he's where 527 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:05.400 he's with his daughter and he decapitates his opponent and all 528 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:06.059 that kind of stuff. 529 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.819 So, uh, yeah, it's, um, I think they do really well. 530 00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:11.759 And then the idea of him running around naked killing people as 531 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.119 well. is something we haven't seen before with them. 532 00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:17.519 No, that's true. 533 00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:21.960 Yeah, the the early script stuff where they say he moves as fast 534 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:22.859 as a gecko. 535 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:25.319 You don't really get that, but you do get the sense of how much 536 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:26.220 faster he is. 537 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.200 He's slow and lumbering in his armour. 538 00:27:28.259 --> 00:27:32.220 But when he flies past Clara, he's a different type of threat. 539 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:32.819 He's fast. 540 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.099 He can sort of hide in the ducts and things. 541 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:38.039 So it's, uh, yeah, I think they do a real good job with it. 542 00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:42.900 I think that there is a real kind of attempt to rehabilitate those 543 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:46.619 stupid costumes from the 60s because one of the things about them 544 00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:51.299 was you could never tell where the lizard ended and the armour 545 00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:52.079 began. 546 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:54.779 And, you know, they were fluffy. 547 00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:56.940 They had like fluffy bums and stuff like that. 548 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.599 And you could never, you know, like it was all a bit unclear and 549 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.359 clearly no one in the production team really cared. 550 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:09.660 And here Gatis wants to kind of make him a bit more credible. 551 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:14.220 And I think, like, I think the fingers are pretty great, you know 552 00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:18.000 like while Skaldax talking, and the voice, like it's some Nicholas 553 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.900 Briggs again, doing a scary monster voice, and it sounds great. 554 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:23.339 He sounds so good. 555 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:28.019 Yeah, and I know that, um, I seem to remember, because as Mark's 556 00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:30.660 already pointed out, Stephen Moffatt was initially, because I know 557 00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:33.599 I, from what I remember, Mark Gatis was very enthusiastic about 558 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:34.980 bringing the ice warriors back. 559 00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.319 Um, and Stephen Moffatt was very resistant. 560 00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:40.440 I believe he said something to the effect of the ice Warriors are 561 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.500 what non-fans think of as bad Doctor Who monsters. 562 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:45.900 Um, and, and... 563 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:47.400 That's the most amazing reason for that. 564 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.259 And one of the things, and I do think it's interesting because I 565 00:28:52.259 --> 00:28:54.779 believe one of the things he singled in on was the voice because 566 00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:59.099 they have that kind of whispery kind of, I will get you, doctor 567 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:00.119 kind of voice to them. 568 00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:01.619 And that is one of the things they change. 569 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.099 They give them this kind of deeper growl to them. 570 00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:10.140 But similarly with the armour as well, which, you know, is in the 571 00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:15.299 classic series, is this very stiff, rigid kind of, I can't 572 00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:16.440 remember what it's made out of. 573 00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:18.720 It's like kind of it's fibre. 574 00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:21.059 It's fibre, like a massive hunk of fibre glass. 575 00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:22.980 It was made by a boat killer. 576 00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:28.319 But I did think it was interesting from, uh, because, you know 577 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.200 they don't up, you know, they update the design, but they kind of 578 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.579 they don't reimagine it. 579 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.180 They don't reinvent it in in the same way. 580 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:39.599 I don't know, they reinvent the macra, I guess, to go for another 581 00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:40.319 Trouton villain. 582 00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:47.160 But in this script, rather than run away from the run away from 583 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:51.299 the suit, I suppose, there is a specific beat when, you know, the 584 00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:54.240 ice warrior leaves its suit. 585 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:59.519 And there's a lot of emphasis put on how shameful that is for an 586 00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:02.759 ice warrior to leave the crummy Doctor Who costume. 587 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:06.839 It's like, this is the greatest shame you could possibly commit an 588 00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:07.859 ice warrior culture. 589 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:09.059 It's to live. 590 00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:12.960 Which I thought I did find interesting. 591 00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:17.579 And, you know, you see this later in the year in the 50th 592 00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:20.279 anniversary where, admittedly, this is a bit of a better monster 593 00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:21.599 design with the Zygons. 594 00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:24.480 They similarly don't feel the need to radically reinvent it. 595 00:30:24.539 --> 00:30:27.660 They can just kind of embrace it and just use more modern 596 00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:28.559 materials to update it. 597 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:32.519 It's nice that the, because this is, presumably, the oldest ice 598 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:33.480 warrior that we've seen. 599 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:38.160 And he obviously waxes, whereas the later ones, they become a lot 600 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:41.339 more body positive and they will just have that fur grow out of 601 00:30:41.339 --> 00:30:41.460 them. 602 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.579 So it's nice to see that growth, yeah. 603 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.299 Yeah. 604 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.700 I mean, Neil Gordon did say with his redesign. 605 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.099 Yeah, I'm not so sure about the child bearing hips. 606 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:51.779 Get rid of those. 607 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:53.160 Yeah, yeah. 608 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:58.740 But I think part of what makes this such a success is both because 609 00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:02.819 Moffat had been objecting to the idea for so long and he and Mark 610 00:31:02.819 --> 00:31:04.799 Gatus are so close as colleagues. 611 00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:07.859 Mark has clearly made a note of the things Stephen doesn't like 612 00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:10.619 and it's like, okay, we're going to find out what's in the suit. 613 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.980 And we're going to make sure that, okay, they're not just 614 00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:16.200 lumbering and you can get away from them with a brisk walk. 615 00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:17.640 Like, it's a deadly machine. 616 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:21.960 And the hands are going to be more dextrous. 617 00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:23.160 All these little things. 618 00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:28.019 I think the other thing that made success to a success is that the 619 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:33.539 spinoff media, the novels and big finish, had built up ice warrior 620 00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:34.380 culture so much. 621 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:39.420 But there's not much specifically that I can say, you know, Mark 622 00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:42.059 Gatis nicked that from the judgement of IsCar or whatever. 623 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:46.920 Basically, the only thing he takes as a whole concept is the cast 624 00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:52.019 system, which Gary Russell introduced in legacy, but he takes the 625 00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:55.200 sort of ideas and the spirit that people have come up with in 626 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.980 these spinoff media and goes, okay, well, we've kind of got a 627 00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:02.160 culture that's been developed for them. that, you know, they're 628 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.900 highly, they're highly honourable. 629 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.740 They have this code where if you don't attack them, they won't 630 00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:08.339 attack you. 631 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.880 Like they're not conquerors out for resources or anything like 632 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:12.059 that. 633 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:16.680 You know, it's it's all about the style of fighting and whether 634 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:19.799 they see you as a worthy warrior or something to protect. 635 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:24.180 I think that's what kind of makes it because a don't like or a 636 00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:25.859 cyberman will kill you just because you're there. 637 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:26.819 Yeah. 638 00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:29.579 And Silurian will kill you because this is their planet. 639 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:33.420 Whereas the ice warrior will only kill you if you stick a cattle 640 00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:38.039 prod, um, uh, the geckoes have koackers. 641 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.740 The greatest events to like... 642 00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:44.640 Down to the left. 643 00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:49.619 What do we think of the CG head? 644 00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:55.440 Um, I remember being okay with it in 2013. 645 00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:00.240 I think I, I, I'm not sure how I feel about it now, but that's 646 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:05.400 maybe, maybe it's unfair to kind of hold that to, you know, a post 647 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:06.059 Disney. 648 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:07.440 Okay, fine. 649 00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:08.700 You know what I mean? 650 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:09.720 Like, it's fine. 651 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:14.220 Yeah, I mean, I have to say that Russell always had a thing about 652 00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:20.099 mouths, you know, the oud have a big kind of bundle of tentacles 653 00:33:20.099 --> 00:33:23.279 and stuff because then they can speak without them having to 654 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:28.079 animate their mouths and he'd obviously been bitten by his 655 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:33.480 experiences with the savine way back in the that very 1st shooting 656 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:33.839 block. 657 00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:35.400 So this is the 1st time. 658 00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:38.039 I think they've attempted to do a CG monster and try to 659 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:42.839 synchronise the speech with it and I don't think it's very 660 00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:43.680 successful. 661 00:33:43.740 --> 00:33:44.640 I have to say. 662 00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:45.720 It does look a bit crap. 663 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:50.099 Yeah, I think the problem that it, like, like full props too, is 664 00:33:50.099 --> 00:33:53.400 it, it's the milk, is it the milk that are doing the animation at 665 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:53.700 this point? 666 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:59.279 Um, like, full props to them for, you know, attempting to do a 667 00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.680 fully realised CGI alien face. 668 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:06.839 I think the one of the big problems it runs into is that in that 669 00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:11.219 final moment, there is supposed to be this kind of tension between 670 00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:15.900 what Skaldax choice is going to be when he returns to the ice 671 00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:22.320 warrior ship and the animation of his face is incredibly stiff. 672 00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:26.760 So there is absolutely no indication of any nuance between what 673 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:28.260 his decision is going to be. 674 00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:33.840 So I think part of the reason why I was also a bit kind of, ah, is 675 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:37.619 because the reveal comes at a moment where Skaldak is supposed to 676 00:34:37.619 --> 00:34:40.559 be having this big change of heart and you literally cannot see it 677 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:42.179 on that CG rubber face. 678 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:43.500 Yeah. 679 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.619 Yeah, it's a it's a noble attempt because they even go to the 680 00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:51.000 trouble for that speech of motion capturing Nick Briggs to power 681 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:52.019 the animation rig. 682 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:52.440 Yeah. 683 00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:57.780 But during the shoot of the scene where it's grabbed David Warner 684 00:34:57.780 --> 00:35:00.480 and you can kind of see it through the smoke. 685 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:03.300 They initially shot that with a facial puppet. 686 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:08.280 But then Milk said, actually, we think we can do this CG. 687 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:08.820 Right, okay. 688 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.179 So I haven't been able to find anything about where they thought 689 00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:15.780 the puppet was unsatisfactory and that's why and that's why they 690 00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:16.199 dropped it. 691 00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:20.760 But having seen, for instance, 90s Godzilla films, where they made 692 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:27.840 a twice human size Godzilla head and torso, which was a, which was 693 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.119 a rod and hydraulic operated puppet. 694 00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:34.500 And they use that for close-ups, and that gets amazing emotion out 695 00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:35.579 of a giant lizard. 696 00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:39.719 And that is a feature film, but it's not a Hollywood feature 697 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:40.019 film. 698 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.239 Maybe the puppet was like that. 699 00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:43.019 I don't know. 700 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.599 I'd be very interested in seeing the footage of the pub. 701 00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:51.239 It's telling that the CG model never comes back in the Empress of 702 00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:51.659 Mars. 703 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:52.079 Yeah. 704 00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:52.679 Yeah. 705 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:53.039 Yeah. 706 00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:53.579 Yes. 707 00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:58.260 I do think the CGI is also partially harmed from the fact that you 708 00:35:58.260 --> 00:36:04.440 go from, you alternate between very obviously rubber hands to a 709 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.539 very obviously CGI phase. 710 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:11.219 I think I think that kind of whiplash between very practical to 711 00:36:11.219 --> 00:36:14.940 very digital kind of affects it as well. 712 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.199 Not seamless. 713 00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:16.800 Yeah, yeah. 714 00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:20.460 I do like the way that when the helmet comes back over the face. 715 00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:21.900 It sort of tugs at it a little bit. 716 00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:25.500 Like it's like it's very tight and it sort of, you know, it's like 717 00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:27.659 when you if you take something off that's too tight and it sort of 718 00:36:27.659 --> 00:36:30.780 pulls your face up a bit and then that's quite well done and it 719 00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:33.659 helps to sell it a little bit, I think. imagine if you were 720 00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:35.280 standing in your work shoes for 5000 years. 721 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.420 It's a bit like the speeder bikes last week. 722 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.599 It's kind of like, oh, well, that didn't quite work, but I'm glad 723 00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:46.139 you tried. 724 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:47.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 725 00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:48.539 Look, no one died, right? 726 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.579 It's a bad Doctor Who effect. 727 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:57.900 A shout out, by the way, to Spencer Wilding, who is the physical 728 00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:02.579 form of Scaldak in the suit, and he's previously been the minor 729 00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:03.719 tour in the God complex. 730 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.099 Oh, we like him. 731 00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:08.219 And the Wooden King in Doctor the Widow on the Wardrobe. 732 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:09.480 Oh, I like him. 733 00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:10.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 734 00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:15.780 But Nicholas Briggs was actually doing a theatre show at the time 735 00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:19.980 and recorded his lines in his dressing room, sent them down to 736 00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:23.460 Cardiff, and they played into the studio for Spencer to mime to. 737 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:24.239 Oh, wow. 738 00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:24.539 Okay. 739 00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:29.099 So, you know, it is an acting performance and he has to get into 740 00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:32.159 that bloody suit, however many hours at a time. 741 00:37:32.219 --> 00:37:32.940 You know what I mean? 742 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.800 Big shout out. 743 00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:39.000 I think he comes back for the Ice Warriors in Time of the Doctor 744 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:44.280 and Empress of Mars as well because the suit is also made from his 745 00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:45.179 body cast. 746 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:46.619 So you put another actor. 747 00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:47.579 It's not gonna fit as well. 748 00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:50.159 Actually, it doesn't quite fit, does it? 749 00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:50.760 The mouth's too high. 750 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.320 But anyway, I digress. 751 00:37:52.739 --> 00:37:56.639 The suit itself was at the doctor experience for a while and it 752 00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:01.260 does look incredibly impressive in the flesh as well, as it were 753 00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:03.480 is a cool, imposing looking thing. 754 00:38:03.539 --> 00:38:11.099 I do think there is a somewhat interesting, more something I 755 00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:14.699 realised in hindsight after Margatus went on to write the Empress 756 00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:19.079 of Mars, which I do think is probably the better ice warrior 757 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:20.639 Margator story of the two. 758 00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:24.360 I do think there is a, in hindsight, I do think there is an, an 759 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:30.840 interesting tension in the script wanting to do the Dalek style 760 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:36.059 where reintroducing a kind of slightly odd Doctor Who monster and 761 00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:38.699 make it kind of gripping and terrifying and you have this 762 00:38:38.699 --> 00:38:40.380 claustrophobic setting. 763 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:43.679 You have the companion going in and confronting the monster. 764 00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:47.280 You have the monster, the reveal of what the monster is underneath 765 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:49.199 the metallic. you have all that kind of stuff. 766 00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:53.460 The tension that Gaitas has is that he wants to do that, but I 767 00:38:53.460 --> 00:38:57.119 think he also wants to embrace the weirdness of the ice warriors 768 00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:57.599 as well. 769 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:00.780 Because, you know, I think some of the best writing is when you've 770 00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:05.099 got Skaldak reminiscing about the songs of the snow, of the red 771 00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:06.599 snow or whatever it is. 772 00:39:06.659 --> 00:39:10.139 And it's like strange and kind of weird. 773 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:13.800 And certainly I think when you get to Empress of Mars, You've got 774 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:18.960 Margators fully embracing the kind of oddness of the ice Warriors 775 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:21.960 and specifically the oddness of the ice Warriors in the Paladin 776 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:27.119 stories, which makes them much more vivid characters as opposed to 777 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:31.920 here where they are kind of introduced as kind of militaristic 778 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:33.239 Doctor Who monster. 779 00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:37.800 How many have there been in 50 years at this point? 780 00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:45.960 Um, I wonder if part of the problem is that the brief that we've 781 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:54.360 been given, which is an exciting film of a particular genre in 42 782 00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:59.760 minutes or so means that we end up with a story that isn't 783 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:01.679 actually about anything. 784 00:40:01.739 --> 00:40:09.000 And there is such low hanging fruit with the idea of Cold War, and 785 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:12.000 we certainly do talk about Cold War and mutually assured 786 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.659 destruction, and it is the mutually assured destruction thing that 787 00:40:15.659 --> 00:40:17.159 kind of wins the day. 788 00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:21.539 But it seems very muddy to me in some ways. 789 00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:26.159 And I can't see a very, like, there's not a very clear parallel 790 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:26.639 drawn. 791 00:40:26.699 --> 00:40:27.179 I don't think. 792 00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:31.619 For me, that parallel is drawn with Kreshenko. 793 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:37.380 Because Grushenko is clearly a scientist loyal to his own culture 794 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:41.519 because he wants to bring this discovery home for the good of the 795 00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:42.840 Soviet Union. 796 00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:46.440 But at the same time, he's listening to Ultravox and Duran Duran 797 00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:50.460 and appreciating the culture of the West without judging it 798 00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:51.300 without dismissing it. 799 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:55.980 And so you have a character in there who is spared, by the way 800 00:40:55.980 --> 00:41:00.480 because he is an understanding sympathetic character, and because 801 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:03.900 he's saying all these people are human, and that lets Clara say to 802 00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:07.440 Scaldak, look, you know, where people, your people, just stop. 803 00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:13.199 Because I think what the plot fails to interact with is when 804 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.840 Scaldak's got his finger on the bottom, the doctor says, well, look 805 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:18.480 I've got a red button as well, with a red light on his Sonic 806 00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:19.139 Screwdriver. 807 00:41:19.139 --> 00:41:22.800 And Clara never says to him, would you really have done that. 808 00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:25.920 But then again, you know, it's the trolly problem of Skaldate's 809 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:26.699 going to destroy the planet. 810 00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:29.099 The doctor's like, well, I'm just going to destroy this small 811 00:41:29.099 --> 00:41:30.840 group of people on a submarine. 812 00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:35.099 And, you know, you got 2 vics standing over in the transporter. 813 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.579 But I love the idea that there is the trolly problem and then 814 00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:40.500 Scaldax trolly problem. 815 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:43.739 I like that we've got a philosophical variant here. 816 00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:47.760 My trolley's got nukes. 817 00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:53.519 But yeah, it's like, I often feel that Gator scripts aren't very 818 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:57.780 deep, but I think with this one, he is at least trying to draw a 819 00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:01.380 parallel between the real Cold War and the Cold War happening 820 00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:01.800 here. 821 00:42:01.860 --> 00:42:04.139 And in a way, I think possibly too much gets cut out because 822 00:42:04.139 --> 00:42:08.940 there's so many little cuts here and we end up at 41 minutes with 823 00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:10.980 the credits and next time trailer. 824 00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.760 It's like maybe put some of that back in and let us get to know 825 00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:15.480 the characters a bit more. 826 00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:17.280 I think that's a good point. 827 00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:21.539 And I kind of think that articulates a bit better what I was 828 00:42:21.539 --> 00:42:24.480 trying to say about, you know, how there is this attempt to 829 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.960 characterise the people on the Russian submarine, as not Russians 830 00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:28.920 but other just other people. 831 00:42:28.980 --> 00:42:31.739 I think that I do think that gets much. 832 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:34.980 I think, as you say, Nathan, it gets muddied a little bit because 833 00:42:34.980 --> 00:42:41.639 a lot of the big moments which tap into the themes of a Cold War 834 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:44.760 story, you know, the fingers on the button kind of thing, you know 835 00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:49.019 nuclear Armageddon, uh, to, uh, all that kind of stuff. 836 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:52.320 It feels like it's just tipping the hat to that kind of 837 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:57.599 ideological tension and tipping its hat to the idea of a Cold War 838 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.719 rather than engaging with that in any kind of substantial way 839 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.239 which is a little disappointing when you have a story that is 840 00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:04.199 literally called Cold War. 841 00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:09.840 Um, but I do, I do think there is, uh, there is a nuance that I 842 00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:13.079 gatus probably would have benefitted from teasing out a little bit 843 00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:13.260 more. 844 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:16.920 It would have been interesting to push the doctor because we know 845 00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:19.739 in the original version of the timeline. 846 00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.840 The war doctor did detonate the moment. 847 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:25.079 The ninth doctor couldn't do it in the parting of the ways. 848 00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:27.420 He says, you know, coward every time. 849 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.900 So the 11th doctor, would he have gone through with it? 850 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:35.460 If, you know, uh, if pushed, you know, what, what decision would 851 00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:39.000 have been made, it would have been interesting, uh, had the ice 852 00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.400 warrior ship not arrived to see which way that would have gone. 853 00:43:41.460 --> 00:43:44.880 Not that he would have blown them all up, but what, you know, if 854 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.119 forced to kind of rationalise that decision, I suppose. 855 00:43:48.179 --> 00:43:50.880 But maybe that's what gets Clara thinking about it so that she 856 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.139 intervenes in day of the doctor. 857 00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:55.860 Yeah, would have been great if, you know, we had like a title 858 00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:56.340 card. 859 00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.519 It's like introducing the War Lenin turning up right at the end. 860 00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:32.940 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. 861 00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:36.539 We'll be back next week to see what image of the Fender looks like 862 00:44:36.539 --> 00:44:39.059 in 2013, with Hyde. 863 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:43.679 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts 864 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:46.679 and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook 865 00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:49.619 at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website 866 00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:52.619 FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other 867 00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:57.179 podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and 868 00:44:57.179 --> 00:44:59.280 untitled Star Trek project. 869 00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:02.280 Mark, where can people find you? 870 00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:06.360 So I'm on Twitter as at Quark McMullis. 871 00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:09.599 You can find me on the Trap One podcast and occasionally on the 872 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:11.159 aforementioned maximum power. 873 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.920 And Jack, where can people find you? 874 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:17.940 As I am very fond of saying, if people are so inclined, you can 875 00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:20.159 follow me on Twitter at Shack Janahan. 876 00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:22.619 I nearly said.com there for some reason. 877 00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:23.940 That is not a separate website. 878 00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:29.699 Um, and you can also follow myself and Joe Ford, uh, whose name is 879 00:45:29.699 --> 00:45:34.019 very familiar, uh, at uh, podcast, the Naimon be Praised, which 880 00:45:34.019 --> 00:45:35.880 can be found at at Naimon Podcast. 881 00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:39.599 Until next time, remember that it's never a good idea to start 882 00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:43.199 melting that block of ice before the opening credits kick in. 883 00:45:43.260 --> 00:45:45.840 Thank you very much for listening, and good night. 884 00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:46.739 Good night. 885 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:47.579 Goodbye. 886 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:48.599 Good night. 887 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:56.099 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley 888 00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:59.460 Brendan Jones, Mark McManison, Jack Shanahan. theme arrangement by 889 00:45:59.460 --> 00:46:00.480 Cameron Lamb. 890 00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:04.380 This episode, Fluffy Bums, was recorded on the 12th of July 2022 891 00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:06.300 and released on the 18th of September. 892 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:13.500 David Warner died at the age of 80 just a fortnight after we 893 00:46:13.500 --> 00:46:14.519 recorded this episode. 894 00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:17.760 So remember sometimes during the week to pour one out for 895 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.599 Chancellor Gorkon, the unbound doctor, Lord Asloc, Professor 896 00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:25.920 Grasenko, and Jordan Perry in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, The 897 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.880 Secret of the Ooze. 898 00:46:29.940 --> 00:46:32.760 Just hold this hold the thought for a second. 899 00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:37.679 We're going to have to wind up. 900 00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:41.280 Um, I thought the other one wasn't due until 830. 901 00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:42.539 No, no, 8.15. 902 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:43.739 Oh, I beg your pardon. 903 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.440 They're just talking on the other thread, just to say. 904 00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:52.260 Okay. 905 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:54.000 I think we need an out. 906 00:46:54.059 --> 00:46:57.239 I think I have a thing, because I think we've done everything 907 00:46:57.239 --> 00:46:57.719 haven't we? 908 00:46:57.900 --> 00:46:59.880 At some point... 909 00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:04.139 I think probably in Hyde, we will end up talking about Matt's 910 00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:07.619 performance a bit because I think there's not very much to say and 911 00:47:07.619 --> 00:47:09.840 I didn't think there was much to say about this, to be honest, but 912 00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:11.099 here we are. 913 00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:12.360 I think we've done very well. 914 00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:15.420 We talk about hads. 915 00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:19.500 We did mention the hats as a trout and throwback. 916 00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:20.219 I think that's okay. 917 00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:26.340 I wonder if part of the problem is...