WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:48:13

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that finds itself nostalgic for that

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abandoned hospital.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Matthew.

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Well, it's my 44th birthday, and it's time for the broadcast of

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another Doctor Who episode.

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Specifically written to occupy the all important position between

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last week's episode and next week's episode.

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All these corridors look the same to us on our journey to the

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centre of the TARDAS.

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The great thing about season four is it's brilliant, and you love

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it, and you can watch it for five years.

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But you couldn't watch it for 17.

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Yeah.

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So I think, well, the reason why I approve of Journey to the

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centre of the TARDIS is it's an attempt to do something new.

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They swing at the ball, you know, they knock a foul, but they're

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trying.

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And this is the difference between Doctor Who and Law and Order.

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You're looking at a television show which is constantly trying to

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do something new.

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Yeah.

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And I think this is, um, while I'll even defend the 1st half of

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Kill the Moon.

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I'll defend all of Kilamoon.

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I think it's superb.

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We'll get there It's trying to do something.

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And unfortunately, the author, the writer of this particular

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episode, he's made a few not great episodes, but they've all been

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good ideas.

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Yeah.

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I have the suspicion that what tends to happen is a lot of Doctor

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Who is written, they go into the showrunner's office and they get

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to the end of the meeting and they say, well, that's a great 40

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minutes of television.

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In the last 2 minutes, how are you going to solve the problem of

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the episode?

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Yeah.

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I've got an idea.

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They can hit the reset button.

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I appreciate what it's trying to do this episode.

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I think I'm on board with the idea, but I don't think it works.

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And I think that's because it comes off as less interesting than

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it should be.

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The TARDIS should be a place of wonder.

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And here it's just not, it's enterprise space corridors.

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And so it needed to be less of the pros and more of the poetic, I

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think.

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There are occasional attempts.

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It reminds me, you know, that opening scene of Mask of Mandraga

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where we just get a glimpse of the boot cupboard.

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You know, we open the door and there's that sort of CSO'd, what is

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it?

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It's like some regency ballroom with a pair of...

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Yeah, that's right.

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And we see the pool, which just looks incredible.

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We see, yeah, the library.

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There's an amazing telescope thing in a sort of conservatory and

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stuff.

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There are some good visuals, but they're really very brief.

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And I remember, I don't think I've watched this one all that often

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but the room with the Eye of Harmony in it is vastly less

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impressive than my memory of it was.

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It's just a gantry with some chroma key.

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Yeah.

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Even it's okay.

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It is okay.

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I mean, can I take issue with the fact that I don't think the

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visual is very impressive?

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I think what we do get is a bit of a deficit of imagination in

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bringing the Tartars to life, because if you're going to set a

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story inside the Tartars, you want it to be fabulous and

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fantastic.

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You want to be surprised by what you see and you want it to be

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whimsical, like the aforementioned enormous boot cupboard.

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Whereas what we get is actually just space corridors.

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They look like any Star Trek Voyage space corridors and they're

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lit the same way.

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They got the red alert lighting going on.

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They've got bits of the wall sort of shattered over the, over the

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corridor.

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But the brief moments that we get of the library and the

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observatory and the swimming pool are actually just kind of stock

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standard Victoria slash Harry Potter designs.

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There's nothing, there's nothing very Doctor Who about it.

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Yeah, I mean, even though I have issue with most of the modern

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versions of the console room, you know, I prefer the classic era.

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Regardless of that, it doesn't look like anything else you've ever

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seen.

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Whereas you're right, the corridors just look like you could be

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honest.

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I keep thinking, oh, we're on the other people's spaceship, you

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know, the brothers spaceship or something. you have to sort of

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remember.

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Oh, actually, no, this is supposed to be the Tartars.

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And it needed to be done a lot more interestingly.

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You're right.

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More boot cupboards and fewer corridors.

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Even though I love, you know, I loved wandering around the Tartis

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in the classic series, whether it's Lagopolis or even bits of like

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you know, when you're in the visitation and you go to see, you

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know, Tegan Niss's bedroom and all that kind of stuff.

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We kind of lived for that.

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I live for that.

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That season 18 thing where Romana has a bedroom and then Adric, the

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following year has, you know, the bedroom set and Nissa and Tegan

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have their bedroom and so on.

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Like all of that is really fun.

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I think the new series has kind of shied away from it because it

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doesn't need the padding in quite the same way.

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So we've had what, 2 stories that have had Tartus corridors in

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them?

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Yes.

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It's just the doctor's wife and this.

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Yeah, but you can't compare this to the doctor's wife.

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No, you can't.

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No, but I do think the doctor's wife corridors were also a low

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point of that episode.

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Yes, that's the least interesting point of the episode, but

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there's less of them, so I kind of forgive it more.

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But that's also the difference between this and the doctor's

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wife.

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The doctor's wife is let down by the same space corridors as this

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episode is, but the doctor's wife's conception of the TARDIS has

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that whimsical quality to it, which this doesn't.

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This is a primarily technological vision of the TARDIS rather than

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a lyrical one, I think.

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I think, though, you know, it does operate on a kind of magical

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principle in some senses.

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At least there's that sense where the TARDIS does have an opinion

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about Clara, we're building on the stuff that we say.

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So do I. Pretty much the same opinion, I think.

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And we have that thing of her creating versions of the console

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room in order to keep the people safe.

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And I also think that weird architectural configuration thing

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which is like a tree, it reminds me.

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Yeah, I think it is.

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It reminded me a little bit of that sort of cherry tree and flux

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that Tech Taun was hanging around underneath.

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But I thought that was an attempt to make the technology of the

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Tartars seems strange.

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And she does react to it.

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So the TARDIS is still kind of personified.

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There are some visually striking moments in this episode, so that

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room really works, that Christmas tree architectural configuration

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room, and also the exploded engine is obviously a very arresting

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image.

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So there are stabs at it.

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I just, I think they're approaching it from the wrong angle.

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It needs to be cloister rooms and referring back to the invasion

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of time that you mentioned in the intro, Nathan.

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I know that it was pilloried at the time and since.

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But if we're going to visit the inside of the TARDIS.

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I want exposed brickwork and old hospital corridors and things

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which have been repurposed on an apparently random basis.

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I think that's more interesting than space corridors.

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I thought it was striking, actually, and I actually rewound it

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slightly to make sure I hadn't missed something, just about the

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1st door that Clara goes to after the opening credits, is a wooden

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door surrounded by stone that leads into the library, and I did

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like that.

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And I guess the cloister room in Lagopolis, which is pretty great

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because it's, you know, it's fibreglass subbing in for stone, but

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it's still got the roundels in the, like there's something fun

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about it.

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Where were the roundlers in this episode, Nathan?

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Where were the roundors?

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my constant question.

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I mean, are the space corridors, I mean, is Piquo designing this?

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So the space corridors do take elements from that lower outside

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section.

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Oh, it's consistent with the console room.

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Set, but it's just doesn't feel tartacy is the problem.

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No, it doesn't.

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They're too small.

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Like they're not.

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They are too short.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I can't imagine, you know, Tom Baker not hitting his head on the

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kind of the doorways and things.

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But again, it goes back to Star Trek because it has like on the

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enterprise in Next Generation.

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It has those angled sections of corridors.

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So nothing is ever very long.

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All you have is a section of corridor, which then planes away to

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the right and you can't see what's beyond it.

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And it's a bit bog standard.

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And cheap and cheap.

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Was this the cheap episode, quote unquote?

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we know?

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don't know.

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It definitely looks like it was an attempt to be the cheap

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episode.

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Yeah.

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Sometimes they tend a cheap episode and it backfires.

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It's really expensive.

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Carnival of monsters.

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Was that supposed to be cheap?

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So maybe the TARDIS doesn't come off all that well, what do we

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think of the 3 guest stars?

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Oh, the 3 guest stars, um, the good attempts, the characterisation

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is incredibly all over the place.

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I mean, your brother's just been brutally murdered and you've

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heard him scream and you don't care.

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Yet your other brother is slightly injured and you're suddenly

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desperately unhappy about it.

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Why don't you care that your brother's just been brutally murdered

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and you've heard him being brutally murdered.

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Yeah.

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I think, like, I think Gregory is pretty good, and he's the main

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brother.

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The older one is giving a very strange performance.

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And I think Tricky is okay.

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But I mean, what's the arc?

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What do they learn?

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Well, nothing because there's a reset match?

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That's right.

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That's true.

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No, they all retain, everyone retains some impression of what's

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happening.

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And we'll come to that, I think, because that might be important.

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But at the beginning, we see a photo of the family and it's torn

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and it's the father and the 2 brothers and Tricky's been torn out

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of the photo because they're doing this elaborate stupid prank.

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And then when we go back, he doesn't quite say, oh, actually, sorry

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about all that Android thing that's sort of a bit crap.

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So he doesn't do that, but the photo isn't torn and Tricky's in

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the photo and Gregor is a little bit kinder to him.

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But it's never actually specified that they're not still pranking

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him.

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No, no, it's not.

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No, it's actually quite clear that they are.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But there is a line, the doctor's line about having a shred of

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decency.

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Gregor actually says that line himself.

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So I guess he's learned something from it.

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But it is like it's just weird and implausible, isn't it?

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Like you trick someone into believing they're an android.

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Like what, what, how are we supposed to feel about that?

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Is that a good thing, a bad thing?

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Well, it's an incredibly cruel thing to have done.

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But he's had an accident and his eyes have been replaced and he's

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lost his memory, which I don't know, it must be a thing that can

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happen when you're in a space accident.

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And they decided we're going to pretend you're an Android and for

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some reason because he really has lost his memory completely.

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He accepts this.

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And yes, he obviously has organic bits, you know, the actual, that

253
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:20.940
sort of rubbish.

254
00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:23.220
It is just this sort of incredibly cruel thing.

255
00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:26.460
But I think it's just a substitute for the character that's being

256
00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:29.580
bullied all their life or everything that we remember.

257
00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:33.059
And I think we're supposed to, and I feel like from, you know, that

258
00:12:33.059 --> 00:12:36.179
that's the audience surrogate character, at least for a certain

259
00:12:36.179 --> 00:12:38.759
style of fan, which I associate myself with.

260
00:12:38.820 --> 00:12:43.080
And so I actually quite strongly identified with Tricky and really

261
00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.899
felt for him and the sort of the journey that happens.

262
00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.659
And I think afterwards, you know, when we're in the new present

263
00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:49.860
after the reset button.

264
00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:52.440
Yes, they're still ribbing him back being an Android, but he knows

265
00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.059
that he isn't an Android, if you know what I mean.

266
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:58.259
Like it's sort of, it's like it's become a joke rather than a

267
00:12:58.259 --> 00:12:58.799
bullying thing.

268
00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:02.159
And, you know, and he is the most interesting one.

269
00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:06.600
I mean, you know, as you said, Gregor is kind of the generic nasty

270
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:07.740
leader guy.

271
00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.159
The other brother is the one I have got the names around the right

272
00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:11.700
way, haven't they?

273
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:12.179
That's the problem.

274
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:13.559
I can't even remember which name to use.

275
00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:15.840
Yeah, I think that's a problem too, isn't it?

276
00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:18.240
Bram's name is used in dialogue once, I think.

277
00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:19.559
Bram's the one who gets killed.

278
00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:22.620
No, yeah, yeah, the older Dumber one.

279
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.720
Yeah, but it's funny because of that.

280
00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:27.600
And what you said, Matthew, about them not really reacting to that

281
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.639
I sort of forget that he's actually a brother.

282
00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:32.519
I thought that there are 2 brothers and there's this other bloke

283
00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:33.059
that they've got.

284
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:33.899
You know what I mean?

285
00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:35.639
Like this other employee, who's the grunt?

286
00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:36.539
Yeah.

287
00:13:36.539 --> 00:13:39.360
I remember when you said space accident earlier, I think that's

288
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:41.879
the problem in that they're a bit space characterish.

289
00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:43.980
They don't act like normal people.

290
00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:44.700
It's completely wonderful.

291
00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:46.139
Like family would act.

292
00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.679
And it is an incredibly cruel thing that they've done tricky, and

293
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:53.220
yet they don't actually seem to be that sad about it when they're

294
00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:53.639
called on it.

295
00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:58.500
It is perfectly consistent with a lot of the many brother families

296
00:13:58.500 --> 00:13:59.519
that I met.

297
00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:03.659
I know, like the bullying is perfectly consistent with, you know

298
00:14:03.659 --> 00:14:04.139
my cousins.

299
00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:05.100
There's 4 of them.

300
00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.440
I could see them doing that to the youngest brother.

301
00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:11.700
The problem is, of course, it is incredibly cruel, and it is

302
00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:14.940
consistent with the Middle Brothers character that, you know, he's

303
00:14:14.940 --> 00:14:18.960
he wants to be the captain, but he's just being overlooked, and so

304
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:20.220
he's done this thing.

305
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.360
The problem, I think, is the single line about that accident.

306
00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:26.399
It comes at the end of the episode.

307
00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:28.860
It's very quickly moved on.

308
00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.799
So you don't really get the sense through the episode of the

309
00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.320
character building and the reasons for it.

310
00:14:34.379 --> 00:14:37.980
It's just a lot of the problems with this episode are exposition

311
00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:39.600
rather than communication.

312
00:14:39.659 --> 00:14:43.559
But it comes back to that thing, which I often repeat, is that I

313
00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.500
don't think you can successfully do those kind of developed, or at

314
00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:48.240
least the kind of development that you're looking for, Nathan

315
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.820
they're in a 45 minute episode when you've got all this stuff

316
00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:51.299
going on.

317
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.240
I think to really feel like that there's been a journey, it needs

318
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.720
to be told over a longer time frame. generally.

319
00:14:57.779 --> 00:15:01.200
Sometimes it can work, but too often it's thrown in like this and

320
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.879
therefore it sort of feels a bit unsatisfying.

321
00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:03.480
Yeah.

322
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:06.419
I think, look, there isn't a lot going on in this episode.

323
00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.600
You know, they wander around some corridors and then hit a button

324
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:10.440
and then stop.

325
00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:12.059
You know, there's not a lot happening.

326
00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:18.419
And the, like, doing a better job of riding the brothers would

327
00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:19.919
have helped, I think, and all.

328
00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:23.639
There's not going on, but there's not a lot going on urgently is

329
00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:24.059
the problem.

330
00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.360
And because all the scenes are played with this sort of heightened

331
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.299
urgency, it means that we're kind of doing all this marking time

332
00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:32.700
from a character point of view.

333
00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:34.320
Yeah, which is understandable and fine.

334
00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:36.600
But I think the thing with tricky, which is great.

335
00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:38.879
You know, he is the younger brother and they've cast an actor who

336
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.519
is smaller than the others and more boyish looking than the

337
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:41.759
others.

338
00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:44.820
And, you know, you know, dad said, you were always the smart one.

339
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.799
You were always the one he left the ship to you and so on like

340
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:46.980
that.

341
00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:51.419
And I think there is something about the younger brother, younger

342
00:15:51.419 --> 00:15:56.580
child, being the one that's actually grows up to be the leader of

343
00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:56.759
them.

344
00:15:56.820 --> 00:16:00.779
You know, the episode's not saying anything very deep, but it does

345
00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:03.600
have something basic to say about the fact that Tricky, who is

346
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.200
being presented as an android, is actually the most human and the

347
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.259
most emotional amongst them. is trying to say something.

348
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.639
It's just not going very deep.

349
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:16.019
Yeah, I think the episode has a significant problem with law of

350
00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:16.860
conservation of detail.

351
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:19.500
It's trying to say a lot.

352
00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:23.159
Like, I watched this again last night, and then the 1st 26 minutes

353
00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.200
it's fine, Clara, and there's a lot going on.

354
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:30.419
And the next 26 minutes, it's, ozotardis is about to explode, how

355
00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:31.139
do we stop that?

356
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.000
And there's too many plot points.

357
00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:34.799
Too many plot points.

358
00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:37.679
When you add in the eyes and the characterisations in the ship and

359
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:39.480
all the rest of it, You're right.

360
00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:42.659
It does not have enough time to deal with all that sufficiently.

361
00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:45.720
The other problem is the sense of urgency.

362
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:50.279
Like, at the very start, Clara opens a door that's on fire and

363
00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:54.299
that has no purpose in the episode, except to demonstrate that

364
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:55.440
Clara is one an idiot.

365
00:16:55.500 --> 00:17:00.299
And two, you know, there's a real threat here, but it's, and three

366
00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:02.700
she has the superhuman ability to outrun fireballs.

367
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.900
Well, yeah, she is the primary character.

368
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:09.180
She's immune.

369
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.819
Walks through fire, you know, that kind of thing.

370
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.480
And the total inconsistency about how dangerous the eye of harmony

371
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:15.779
is.

372
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.240
It goes from being, oh, if you're in here for more than a few

373
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.720
moments, your skin will blister and peel to, oh, well, you can be

374
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:22.380
in here for minutes.

375
00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:23.039
Yeah.

376
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:25.259
Yeah, they didn't think that one through.

377
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:28.859
You like the fact that now every TARDIS has its own eye of harmony

378
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:31.859
rather than it being a single eye of harmony, wherever it is under

379
00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:32.819
the monoptagon or somewhere.

380
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.299
I thought it was, I thought that's the one that Omega collapses.

381
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:37.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

382
00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.960
Yeah, but it's actually in that big kind of...

383
00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:41.579
It's the eye of harmony.

384
00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:42.660
Under that...

385
00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:44.759
I think we've had a few eyes of high school thing.

386
00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:45.299
Yes, yes.

387
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:46.259
Crystal.

388
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:47.460
Well...

389
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:48.480
It's wood.

390
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:53.579
But then there's The Eye of Harmony in the Tardis in the telly

391
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:55.859
movie, and that's where that idea comes from.

392
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.059
Of course.

393
00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:58.079
Yes, yes, yes.

394
00:17:58.140 --> 00:17:59.220
So it's already it's already happened.

395
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.859
But, I mean, back in the day, in the 60s, 70s, whatever.

396
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.339
The idea of there being a collapsing star in the heart of every

397
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:08.819
TARTIS would have been too far-fetched. whilst obviously it's sort

398
00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:09.599
of too far-fetched.

399
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:12.420
Now, we have a greater conception of the true size of the universe

400
00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:16.019
and how, you know, one race capturing a few black holes here and

401
00:18:16.019 --> 00:18:19.140
there is nothing compared to the mass of the universe.

402
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:20.460
I do like the idea.

403
00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:24.839
I think there's something that's when that sort of magical

404
00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:26.640
conception of how the TARDIS works.

405
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:29.819
You know, there's a dying star fuelling each one.

406
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.960
Like, if it can be more preposterous and less, like, it has a warp

407
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.960
drive or something like that or, you know, tacky on things.

408
00:18:37.019 --> 00:18:38.039
That's all very boring.

409
00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:40.440
But if it can be a little bit more lyrical.

410
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:42.480
I think that it should definitely.

411
00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:45.599
But also it gives a sense of how much energy is required to power

412
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.079
this thing.

413
00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:48.720
And, you know, it's like a Dyson sphere.

414
00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:51.900
You know, it's taking the entire output of a collapsing slash

415
00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:53.039
exploding star.

416
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:54.779
No, it's nice.

417
00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:57.180
It's the midi-chlorian effect, isn't it?

418
00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.220
You don't want things explained too much.

419
00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:01.740
It just works.

420
00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:02.339
Yeah.

421
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.240
I have a problem with the casting.

422
00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:12.960
Right?

423
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:19.740
So, for most of its run, Doctor Who just cast white actors and

424
00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:21.059
often white male actors.

425
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:24.240
Yes, yeah, very frequently. and here, again, we have another story

426
00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.240
where there's only one woman and it's Clara.

427
00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:31.319
But here we've cast 3 brothers.

428
00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:37.920
They're all black actors, but I think that there is a bit of an

429
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:42.779
issue about sensitivity around who you cast to do what.

430
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.039
And so if you're casting 3 brothers who carjack the TARDIS.

431
00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:48.900
I don't know.

432
00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:49.619
I don't know.

433
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:50.339
I don't know.

434
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.980
It worries me a little bit that this is something that happens

435
00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:57.059
going forward where the show is kind of going, oh, we are

436
00:19:57.059 --> 00:20:00.299
colourblind casting and all of that's very good, but then they

437
00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:04.140
don't kind of realise the implications or the stereotypes that

438
00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:07.740
they might inadvertently be perpetuating with the sort of casting

439
00:20:07.740 --> 00:20:08.400
that they do.

440
00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:12.240
And I think maybe this once it doesn't constitute a pattern, but

441
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:17.400
like in the next season, we will get a bit more of that, I think.

442
00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:20.640
And I think it might be a problem.

443
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:24.480
Yeah, look, I'm very sympathetic to it.

444
00:20:24.539 --> 00:20:25.980
The view or the thought.

445
00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.359
I'm The reason why I'm not sort of 100% on board with it.

446
00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:33.960
I recognise that it's a potential problem, but I also recognise

447
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:39.660
that there's an awful lot of people cast, you know, in Doctor Who

448
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:43.019
in the modern era who are people of colour or women or whatever

449
00:20:43.019 --> 00:20:44.579
and there's much more diverse.

450
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.700
So it makes up for the fact, otherwise we need to sort of end up

451
00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:49.140
with 3 white brothers.

452
00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:51.480
Or maybe make one of them a sister at least.

453
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:52.440
And that could have worked.

454
00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.140
Maybe the Android could have been assistant, quite unquote tricky

455
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:55.799
could have been a sister.

456
00:20:55.859 --> 00:20:58.380
But I don't know, I get what you're saying, but I think it's

457
00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:01.500
because they're not, I mean, they're operating what is effectively

458
00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.299
an independent business.

459
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:05.880
They're not slaves.

460
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:09.599
They're not they're not beholden to some large evil intergalactic

461
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:10.140
corporation.

462
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:11.759
They've got their own autonomy.

463
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:15.180
And yes, there is something a bit dodgy in some of the practises

464
00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:18.660
they're doing. you know, crossing legal boundaries.

465
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.960
I think saying that they're carjacking the TARDIS is probably a

466
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:22.440
bit much.

467
00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:23.579
Maybe, maybe.

468
00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.640
I think there is one particular scene where I found it super

469
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:31.799
awkward and that's Matt being white and as posh as humanly

470
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:36.180
possible, kind of ordering them around like they're not very smart

471
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:38.339
and...

472
00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:39.299
But that's the doctor, though.

473
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:40.259
Yeah, yeah, I know.

474
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:44.700
But you've got to, it's still kind of looks bad.

475
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.220
Yeah, it's not a massive problem, I don't think.

476
00:21:47.339 --> 00:21:48.539
But it's a slight problem.

477
00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:54.539
It's a problem of optics and it's problem of not thinking through

478
00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:58.500
to the very end result of what you're putting on screen, I think.

479
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.740
And like you say, it will, it's not a pattern and no one thinks

480
00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:05.099
that there's any kind of wrong agenda here or anything like that.

481
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.700
But it will sort of, when we come on in a couple of seasons time

482
00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:11.039
to Rigsy in Flatline.

483
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.559
I think that's where it starts to become more of a problem because

484
00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:17.700
as far as I'm aware, that character was written to be was written

485
00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:18.420
colourblind.

486
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.359
Like there's no there's no indication in the script that you

487
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:23.279
should be a particular race or anything.

488
00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:26.640
And yet he was cast black and you think, why?

489
00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:28.259
Because he's graffiti artist?

490
00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:29.339
Yeah, yeah.

491
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.599
It's difficult for us to talk about this because we're all wise.

492
00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.920
But we have, like, have had some experience of representation in

493
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.819
Doctor Who, where we would kind of try and grab the little crumbs

494
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:42.359
that we had.

495
00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:44.160
Oh, you know, Harrison Chase is gay.

496
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:51.539
And then you sort of become aware of when, you know, gay people or

497
00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:54.839
lesbians or just generally queer people appear in Doctor Who and

498
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:56.640
how they're treated and things.

499
00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:58.799
Brutally murdered over the soup.

500
00:22:58.859 --> 00:23:00.660
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

501
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:04.200
Yeah, I think generally, Doctor Who has done, even in the modern

502
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:08.880
era, even under Davies and Moffatt and Chipnall, there's been very

503
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.900
little gate mail representation, and generally the gay men don't

504
00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:14.279
tend to survive the episode.

505
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.400
But you kind of think...

506
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:18.599
A lot of people don't survive...

507
00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:19.140
Well, that's true.

508
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:19.980
You know what I mean?

509
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.220
This is what I suppose what I'm saying as well, is that if you, I

510
00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:26.519
mean, you know, Harrison Chase, you know, being red is gay.

511
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:31.259
I mean, having the villain being gay in that era and even now is

512
00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:32.099
quite a normal thing.

513
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.740
You know, gay people either get brutally killed or they die of age

514
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:36.180
or they're the villain, right?

515
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.359
And even, you know, you could argue that Count Scarlione sort of

516
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:40.019
reads a bit gay.

517
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

518
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:43.859
I mean, you know, any gay man would have that would have...

519
00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:45.000
Oh, his wife is very discreet.

520
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:47.880
Exactly. would have her as a wife.

521
00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:51.779
But, you know, I mean, I, I, look, thinking of the representation

522
00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:55.019
thing, you know, I don't necessarily get tired of the arch gay

523
00:23:55.019 --> 00:23:55.740
villain, you know?

524
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:56.400
No, I love it.

525
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.680
And I don't get...

526
00:23:58.740 --> 00:24:01.440
No, I just I merely aspire to that.

527
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:02.640
I merely aspire.

528
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:03.000
Please.

529
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.859
You know, and so it's kind of like, does that mean you can't cast

530
00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:09.660
a black person as a graffiti artist?

531
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:11.880
Can't cast a black person, someone who's doing a card?

532
00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:12.359
you know what I mean?

533
00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:16.019
But this is the problem with which I find with the kind of the

534
00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:19.980
discussion more broadly is that if you're going to have proper

535
00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:24.539
diverse casting, it means that sometimes, and even often when

536
00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:26.940
you've got the key central characters being the doctor and

537
00:24:26.940 --> 00:24:30.240
companion, these people are going to play roles which historically

538
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:31.319
have been their stereotype.

539
00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:33.119
Yes, no, absolutely you're right.

540
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:37.140
And I think the benefits of casting 3 actors of colour in this

541
00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:41.220
episode far outweigh whatever, you know, you might look at and say

542
00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:42.900
well, you know, that can be a bit awkward sometimes.

543
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:46.799
And I think we probably moved beyond in representation, the idea

544
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:50.880
that to take the example of gay men on screen, where the gay man

545
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.599
used to be the villain or the AIDS victim or whatever, we've moved

546
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.960
far enough forward in representation that the gay man can actually

547
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.500
be everything and all of those things and doesn't have to be the

548
00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:05.579
virtuous best friend or the comedy sidekick or whatever.

549
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:08.400
And so, I think it's a transitional issue.

550
00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:09.599
Do you know what I mean?

551
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:13.920
Eventually, once if, you know, we do gain proper amounts of

552
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.640
diversity and, you know, you've seen the last few years of Doctor

553
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:23.700
Who improved both in front of and behind the camera enormously in

554
00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:28.079
that respect, then I think maybe we could be a bit more relaxed

555
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:28.619
about it.

556
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.680
But I just think maybe at this point it's something that we need

557
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:32.880
to kind of think about a little bit.

558
00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:34.859
You're talking about the point where this was being made.

559
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:39.599
Yeah, maybe, I mean, even then, I think there was still lots of, I

560
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:44.339
mean, I'm not going to do an account because I don't know, but and

561
00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:47.579
I'm sure it would be unfavourable to people of colour and so on

562
00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:50.700
but because it would be too low or too many kind of stereotypical

563
00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:54.119
roles, but nevertheless, I still think even at this point, I think

564
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:57.240
it's not an issue and it's an accident.

565
00:25:57.299 --> 00:25:59.160
And I get what you're saying, Peter, that sometimes, you know

566
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:02.279
they're not thinking through, um, they haven't thought through how

567
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:05.099
it might end up on screen at the end of the day when you've got a

568
00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:06.180
complete program.

569
00:26:06.299 --> 00:26:09.720
But I still think at the end of the day, I'd much rather see 3

570
00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:11.579
black actors cast in this.

571
00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:12.180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

572
00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:13.740
In these home.

573
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:14.339
The not.

574
00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:16.559
And I think that's where the discussion starts to become unhelpful

575
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:20.400
because if you've got to 2nd guess the situation so much, that I

576
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.579
think actually becomes a big problem in terms of actually

577
00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:27.359
achieving that representation because they're 2nd guessing

578
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:28.259
themselves too much.

579
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:32.339
You know, the casting gets so wound up in it that they can't just

580
00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:33.119
cast people.

581
00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:37.319
And I think I'd like to think that they've moved to a point where

582
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:38.339
they're just casting people.

583
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:39.900
And I think it's been like that for quite a while.

584
00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:42.839
No, I agree with you. 100% on board with what you're saying.

585
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:45.119
It's a very slight tone deafness.

586
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:46.680
It is not a reason not to do it.

587
00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:50.160
I think this would be a worse episode if it was 3 White Brothers.

588
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:50.759
Sure.

589
00:26:50.819 --> 00:26:55.619
I do think, though, that with series 7 and 8, we do get fairly

590
00:26:55.619 --> 00:26:59.700
close to a pattern, there is quite a bit of carelessness and we

591
00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:01.859
will get to that when we talk about it next year, I think.

592
00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:04.319
And you're right, what you said before.

593
00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:06.599
A single incident is not a pattern.

594
00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:10.859
But there are, and there are, you know, people, but one would hope

595
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:12.599
an overarching view of the casting.

596
00:27:12.660 --> 00:27:17.819
But it is possible to get, and I do recognise that maybe we do

597
00:27:17.819 --> 00:27:22.380
step over a line in the coming years, but even then, I suppose

598
00:27:22.380 --> 00:27:26.519
what I'm saying is I'm prepared to forgive that, and I'm prepared

599
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:29.339
to understand that rather than criticise it, if you know.

600
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:30.599
It's because it's coming from a good place.

601
00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:33.960
It's coming from a desire to increase the representation of people

602
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:35.400
of colour on screen and dog too.

603
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:35.940
That a good thing.

604
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:37.200
Or just television more broadly.

605
00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:40.019
And we've had do have and will continue to have lots of

606
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:43.980
sympathetic hero characters who are people of colour, queer

607
00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:45.539
whatever minority we're talking about.

608
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:49.859
There is a distinct like of Asian characters within Doctor Who

609
00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:50.220
still.

610
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:54.059
Yes, there's South Asian in the new series.

611
00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:56.640
There was one episode.

612
00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:59.819
I can't remember which episode it was, but the Indian Space

613
00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:00.480
Command was.

614
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.660
Dinosaurs on a spaceship.

615
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:04.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

616
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:07.259
But very little East Asian.

617
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:07.500
Yeah.

618
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:09.359
Very little East Asian.

619
00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:12.480
But that's a reflection of the population makeup of the UK

620
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:12.839
remember?

621
00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:16.799
If the program was being made here, you'd have a lot of East Asian

622
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:21.359
faces and probably fewer African faces because of, you know, the

623
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.940
mix of the population in Australia, you know, it is what it is.

624
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.819
That is actually the piece of the diversity puzzle in Doctor Who

625
00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:27.359
which is sort of missing.

626
00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:44.339
We've discussed various weaknesses of the episode.

627
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:48.240
I think one of the main weaknesses is that it is all just

628
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:49.319
disjointed.

629
00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:53.460
It's a series of set pieces or moments, which don't necessarily

630
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:58.200
string together for me in a way that's satisfying.

631
00:28:58.259 --> 00:29:01.259
And you've got weird things like, you know, the big kaplunk roads

632
00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:04.859
that shove in and, you know, threaten to take Tricky's arm off.

633
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:06.180
I mean, what the hell was that about?

634
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.859
I couldn't even work that out.

635
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.279
So something was failing and then Yeah, so the rods were going to

636
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:12.900
expand or explode or something.

637
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.559
It's explained because I have the advantage of watching this late

638
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:16.980
last night.

639
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.740
I watched it yesterday and I still don't understand.

640
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:21.900
It doesn't make sense.

641
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.619
The doctor says all of the fuel is emptied out of the tank.

642
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:29.880
What happens when the fuel rods are left exposed, they expand and

643
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:30.720
explode?

644
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:31.680
They shatter.

645
00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:35.220
The idea is somehow there is, it's like a nuclear reactor and

646
00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:39.299
there's fuel rods being blown out of the engine which they're

647
00:29:39.299 --> 00:29:40.980
under and that's what's going to the walls.

648
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.400
But then that's completely contradicted in the next 2 scenes.

649
00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:49.259
So it's just in trying to find the opportunity for the scene

650
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:50.339
you're talking about.

651
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:51.599
Yes, yes. and that's my criticism.

652
00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:54.059
It's like Sigourney Weaver in Galaxy Quest when they have to go

653
00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:56.819
through the great big hammer things that are going, and, you know

654
00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:58.559
Sigourney Weaver says, this doesn't make any sense.

655
00:29:58.619 --> 00:30:02.460
It's that referential thing that you have things like this in

656
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:05.759
Doctor Who or Star Trek, whatever, which I just, that actually

657
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:07.920
makes no logical sense as to how this machine.

658
00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:10.319
I mean, I know the tarnis is a fantastical and wonderful and

659
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:15.359
magical machine, but these great big rods coming in does not for

660
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:16.380
me match that.

661
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:21.900
So episode 2 of the new series reminded me so much of Galaxy Quest

662
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:25.259
because you've got the doctor running through giant bags.

663
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:25.980
Oh, yes, yes.

664
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:28.079
Yes, yes, yes. to press the button.

665
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:28.680
There you go.

666
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:30.000
Turn the thing off.

667
00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:30.359
Yes.

668
00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:32.519
Why is this Doctor Who thing to do?

669
00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:35.700
And I thought it made for some really good visuals.

670
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:40.019
And I definitely jumped more than once when the things went

671
00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:40.619
through the wall.

672
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:42.960
I thought it had gone through his arm, but what happens?

673
00:30:43.019 --> 00:30:44.039
How does it trap his arm?

674
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:45.779
No, it just holds his arm.

675
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:46.559
Holds him arm.

676
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:48.480
He's in pain because he's not gone through his arm.

677
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:49.019
Okay, yeah.

678
00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:52.019
But I think that's the problem what we were talking about earlier

679
00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:52.440
Simon.

680
00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:54.119
No, it goes through him.

681
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:57.119
No, no, I don't think it does because there's no blunt or

682
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:57.359
anything.

683
00:30:57.420 --> 00:30:59.759
But it doesn't have an injury.

684
00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:01.619
But no, because he said, cut my arm off.

685
00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:03.299
Yeah, yeah, the whole thing.

686
00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:06.000
No, I think it's like a sort of 87 hours or whatever it was

687
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:06.299
called.

688
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.180
It's like that guy who got trapped, the rock climber guy who had

689
00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:10.380
to cut his own arm off to his back.

690
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:13.019
I think that's what the...

691
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:14.460
Because he doesn't seem to be wounded.

692
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.240
He just seems to be in pain and it never gets mentioned again.

693
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:19.079
Do you know what I mean?

694
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:22.319
Like he's just sort of holding it vaguely in the next scene, but

695
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:22.980
that's about it.

696
00:31:23.339 --> 00:31:27.059
I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier, that it's

697
00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:28.319
been a bit reverse engineered.

698
00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:30.359
They need some peril and so they're going to have some things

699
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:32.220
flying through the walls that are dangerous.

700
00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:33.119
Inventive peril.

701
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:35.640
And so they then talked about the fact that the TARDIS has fuel

702
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:38.099
rods and they're empty and you sort of think this isn't the

703
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:39.000
enterprise.

704
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:39.779
Yeah, no, exactly.

705
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:43.079
That's why it was just not Dr. Huey in terms of, I mean, great big

706
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:45.599
fans in the end of the world.

707
00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:45.900
Yes.

708
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:47.220
They were keeping it cool.

709
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.599
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

710
00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.720
Unless we forget that in the end of the world, Rose is also

711
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:54.900
trapped in a room where there's bits of sunlight coming through

712
00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:57.180
spearing through the window at her.

713
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:01.019
Yes, but we're going for, obviously, a surreal style of story

714
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:03.539
where, you know, the architectural configuration of the TARDIS is

715
00:32:03.539 --> 00:32:04.500
spontaneously changing.

716
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.140
You've got these ghost states of people in slightly different

717
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:09.720
console rooms or time streams or whatever the hell it is.

718
00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:14.220
Those kind of things need to have internal logic for them to work

719
00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:15.839
so you can kind of follow what's going on.

720
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.940
And I think they need to be sort of well-directed, which is harder

721
00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:20.099
when you're dealing with a lot of identical looking corridors.

722
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.579
Yeah.

723
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:23.519
So I suppose mine. when you have a good director.

724
00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:25.200
It's not well directed, is it?

725
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:27.599
No, I think it's, well, it's not, it's just covered.

726
00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:30.240
And even then I don't even know whether it's covered because

727
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:32.819
sometimes you're kind of going, you're not sure whether it's a

728
00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:35.940
trick of the, oh, where, you know, she's turned a corner and the

729
00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:37.980
whole thing's changed or whether it's just a bit of direction

730
00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:40.380
that's not quite... hasn't got quite right.

731
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:45.480
Yeah, and for me, it sort of is on the wrong side of the line of

732
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:46.859
making logical sense.

733
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:47.759
It's not terrible.

734
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:51.240
It's not a total mess, but it's just slightly on the wrong side of

735
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:51.480
that.

736
00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:55.680
I can understand how all this is actually working in a way that

737
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:58.440
doesn't require me to kind of retcon everything in my head.

738
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.500
I'm also not convinced we need the zombie creatures.

739
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:02.640
It would have been...

740
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:04.019
I think we need monsters.

741
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:05.220
I do think we need more.

742
00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:06.359
Well, no, I think that's the floor.

743
00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:09.720
I think someone has said we need monsters.

744
00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:12.180
And like the kaplunk rods.

745
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.700
That's what's been inserted into the thing.

746
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:17.279
And I don't know whether that actually for me adds to the peril.

747
00:33:17.339 --> 00:33:18.599
It makes no sense.

748
00:33:18.660 --> 00:33:24.539
It's your future states that have been somehow destroyed by the

749
00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:29.160
the idea is that they've been crispied by the Eye of Harmony.

750
00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:29.640
Yeah.

751
00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:32.099
But then they're running around the TARDIS trying to attack you.

752
00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:35.880
No, if they'd been running around the Tartars like seeking help

753
00:33:35.940 --> 00:33:39.420
and you could clearly get this idea that they were seeking help

754
00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:42.059
then maybe it would make sense, but they're just there for the

755
00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:48.240
peril. out of focus is zombie monster things that are chasing.

756
00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:51.420
I mean, I think they are invented peril, but I think we need it.

757
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:52.799
Otherwise the episode would be so empty.

758
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:55.259
No, because, I mean, the problem is we just had the haunted house

759
00:33:55.259 --> 00:33:58.980
episode with Hyde, but if we pretend that that episode didn't

760
00:33:58.980 --> 00:33:59.279
happen.

761
00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:02.640
I think this episode would be so much better if it was done like a

762
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:07.019
haunted house episode, that it was a bit slower, a bit more creepy

763
00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:10.619
a bit darker, like basically more like the TARDIS is, you know

764
00:34:10.619 --> 00:34:13.260
rather than kind of exploding everywhere, it's run out of power

765
00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:17.099
and it's dark and quiet and all that sort of thing rather than

766
00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:18.119
noisy, loud.

767
00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:18.599
Absolutely right.

768
00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:20.639
I think if you're going to do which kind of episode, that's what

769
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:20.880
you want.

770
00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:23.639
Yes, and the scene which does work for that, the one scene which

771
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.519
works is the one where Clara is in the library and the creature

772
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:29.699
comes in behind her and she's hiding behind the bookcase that sort

773
00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:30.719
of springs out from behind.

774
00:34:30.780 --> 00:34:34.199
I think that works quite well, but it's an isolated instance.

775
00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:38.400
Is the problem that we're doing this in a story that's basically

776
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:42.179
about we finally go into other rooms in the TARDIS.

777
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:47.460
And if it had been more like the invasion of time, where some

778
00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:51.900
other story is going on, and incidentally we end up wandering

779
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:54.480
around the Tartars, that that might have been better.

780
00:34:54.539 --> 00:34:55.860
So he would have had peril.

781
00:34:55.860 --> 00:34:59.400
That was organic rather than peril that was just kind of a bit

782
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:03.960
silly, which is not, you know, it's not unknown as a phenomenon in

783
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:04.619
Doctor Who.

784
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.739
But it's one of those points I like to come back to, is that

785
00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:11.039
episodes one likes, for some reason, one gravitates too. there

786
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:13.860
will be things wrong with them and inexplicably one can forgive

787
00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:14.039
them.

788
00:35:14.099 --> 00:35:17.219
And then there are episodes that you don't particularly like, which

789
00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:19.199
are, in other ways, flawless.

790
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:21.659
And for some reason, you dismiss those things as, oh, well, you

791
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:23.460
know, but that's just generic and blah, blah, blah.

792
00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:25.380
There is always a je ne sais quoi.

793
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.380
And I think that that's what's missing from this episode is the je

794
00:35:28.380 --> 00:35:29.579
ne sais quoi that makes it special.

795
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:33.179
The mistake was to go for the monsters because that was the

796
00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:34.679
imperative from the BBC.

797
00:35:34.739 --> 00:35:36.000
There shall always be monsters.

798
00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:38.760
I think it would have been much better if it had been the edge of

799
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:39.179
destruction.

800
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:43.739
And it had been the conflict between the characters and the

801
00:35:43.739 --> 00:35:44.219
doctor.

802
00:35:44.219 --> 00:35:48.000
And he does that brilliant speech of, oh, I've set the self

803
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.500
destruct, you have to save Clara.

804
00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:52.619
Otherwise, we're all dying, which is very Matt Smith, and he

805
00:35:52.619 --> 00:35:54.300
really acts brilliantly in this.

806
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:57.179
There's some scenes there where he's just standing in the

807
00:35:57.179 --> 00:36:00.719
background and he, the camera loves him and he's really acting

808
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:01.380
with his face.

809
00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:06.539
But I think you miss the opportunity to have the conflict between

810
00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:10.860
the characters, evolve the characters, drive the plot, and there's

811
00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:15.239
a point at the end where you're now discussing the impossible girl

812
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:16.019
plot.

813
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:20.099
And Clara says, oh, you're scaring me now more than anything else

814
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:22.679
in the TARDIS, but she doesn't really act like it.

815
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:26.699
And there is the ability there for Matt Smith to be truly

816
00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:27.360
terrifying.

817
00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:30.960
And there could have been that kind of thing where, you know, the

818
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:33.659
question comes up, who are you, Clara?

819
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:37.980
And now Clara's worried about doctor and she runs off and she gets

820
00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:40.019
herself into peril and blah, blah, blah.

821
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:40.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

822
00:36:40.619 --> 00:36:43.739
I think this was shot quite early on and they don't quite have a

823
00:36:43.739 --> 00:36:45.000
handle on Clara yet.

824
00:36:45.059 --> 00:36:47.460
And so she's a little bit generic in this episode.

825
00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:52.199
And so those scenes with her, if you'd had Amy doing them or, you

826
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.860
know, a really good companion like Donna or someone like that, they

827
00:36:55.860 --> 00:36:57.900
would have been quite magnetic, but she's just not quite there

828
00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:00.300
enough on screen to lead those scenes.

829
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:02.699
It's a strange choice, I think.

830
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:07.619
So we have these revelations about Clara.

831
00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:13.920
And they happen in this time loop episode where maybe they're

832
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:19.199
forgotten, but we can't be sure because we know that the Van Balen

833
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.099
boys have learned from this episode sort of sticks.

834
00:37:23.219 --> 00:37:27.719
But having the doctor, you know, Well the doctor remembers it

835
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:27.900
all.

836
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:28.920
Yeah, does he?

837
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:29.639
Oh, yes.

838
00:37:29.699 --> 00:37:31.800
That's my interpretation at the end.

839
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:32.460
He remembers everything.

840
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:35.099
So the doctor knows that Clara's not evil and not trying to

841
00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:37.079
infiltrate his time or whatever.

842
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:40.260
He knows that she's, for some other reason, there are multiple

843
00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:42.059
Claras listed in his history.

844
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:47.400
I mean, we had the reveal in Hyde that she's just a normal

845
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:48.000
person.

846
00:37:48.059 --> 00:37:52.139
That's what Emma tells the doctor at the end of Hyde.

847
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:57.780
And it is that thing where Moffatt just goes for the obvious

848
00:37:57.780 --> 00:37:59.940
answer to the mystery is the correct one.

849
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.440
And because mysteries are fun but the reveals are often a bit

850
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:05.219
disappointing.

851
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.940
And, you know, I think this sort of works.

852
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.139
Like I don't mind it.

853
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:14.219
It does mean that we are approaching Clara as a bit of an enigma

854
00:38:14.219 --> 00:38:18.840
and to have that happen in a season where the later episodes are

855
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:22.380
being shot earlier when she doesn't have much of a handle on what

856
00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:23.699
she's going to be like.

857
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:25.500
I think it is a problem for the character.

858
00:38:25.619 --> 00:38:28.380
And it's a bit for to doomsday.

859
00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:30.480
Not quite as bad.

860
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.239
Well, that would be an achievement.

861
00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:36.360
Past the sodium.

862
00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:40.440
I think she's a bit of a peril monkey in this episode, Clara.

863
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:43.800
She exists just to, you know, go up and open doors, which clearly

864
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:45.900
shouldn't be opened and then outrun the fireball.

865
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:51.719
And so there's not much to hang on the character, but also, and I

866
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.780
will return to this point, this is the start of a problematic

867
00:38:54.780 --> 00:38:58.679
quality for Clara's character, and that is violent, aggressive

868
00:38:58.679 --> 00:38:59.340
Clara.

869
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:03.000
So there is a scene in this where she hits the doctor multiple

870
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:04.019
times and it's not fun.

871
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.860
She's doing it because she's angry and she's quite an aggressive

872
00:39:07.860 --> 00:39:10.500
character and I think it's a problem and will return to that.

873
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:12.840
I actually like that hit, I have to say.

874
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:15.300
Yeah, she punches him in the shoulder.

875
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:20.340
I don't think that tips over the, it doesn't just yet, but she's

876
00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:21.659
clearly doing it because she's angry.

877
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:22.380
She's lashing out.

878
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:24.000
She's angry because she's angry.

879
00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:24.900
That's the only reason.

880
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:26.760
And the doctor recoils from it.

881
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:29.400
And she's not sorry about it.

882
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:33.239
And she will become increasingly verbally and physically

883
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:35.039
aggressive, culminating in the line.

884
00:39:35.099 --> 00:39:38.460
Say that again, and I'll slap you so hard, you'll regenerate, and

885
00:39:38.460 --> 00:39:41.039
I find a problematic quality with her character.

886
00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:45.119
Moffatt does sometimes have cracks about the doctor where he's so

887
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.639
irritating that people punch him in the face.

888
00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:51.179
You know, like people will say, oh, and before they left, you know

889
00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:53.099
did they smack you in the head or anything like that?

890
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:57.480
Like Moffatt is aware that his doctor is irritating and sometimes

891
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:01.619
expresses it through comedy lines, not like the one you mentioned

892
00:40:01.619 --> 00:40:04.380
but through comedy kind of hilarious lines.

893
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:06.300
This I thought was kind of givable.

894
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:08.880
I think the dogs are probably Matt's doctor probably deserves a

895
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:10.079
casual punch in the shoulders.

896
00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:12.780
And also what you're sort of complaining about there is fair

897
00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:14.880
enough, but it's also kind of where they're taking the Capaldi

898
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:18.300
doctor as well as being a less pleasant person to be around in

899
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:18.840
some regards.

900
00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:19.860
Yeah, that's true.

901
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:21.599
And I think, you know, Moffat finds it charming.

902
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:26.400
He finds it charming when sort of perky, pixie dream girls kind of

903
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.980
you know, take it out on the league character for being annoying.

904
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:32.039
And it works with river because rivers played with that knowing

905
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:35.639
kind of charm, whereas I don't think it works with Clara.

906
00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:38.940
I think for better or for worse, Jenna is playing it too real.

907
00:40:38.940 --> 00:40:40.860
And I find it quite uncomfortable.

908
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:44.940
A little less coupling and a little more drama.

909
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:02.460
We've kind of talked about the reset button, but the reset button

910
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:04.920
thing for me is, I mean, you know, it's not the first time Doctor

911
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:09.000
Who or other programs have done these sorts of things, but it's

912
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:10.500
very difficult to do well.

913
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.320
It always ends up being a little bit unsatisfying for me.

914
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:14.460
It is a cheat.

915
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:17.579
And I think, like a lot of the other things we've talked about

916
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:20.940
like the zombie creatures and the, for me, the client rods and

917
00:41:20.940 --> 00:41:23.280
those sorts of things, I think there are too many lazy decisions

918
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.079
and that's just another one of them.

919
00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:26.460
It's like the easy way.

920
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:28.619
Oh, we just need to, how are we going to get out of this?

921
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:30.420
Oh we'll just press a button and we'll go back to the way it was.

922
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:33.000
It's not quite that because the button is there in the 1st

923
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.559
iteration the 1st time through.

924
00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:38.460
So that thing appears on the floor and I remember thinking at the

925
00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:41.400
time, how did that get there and being slightly surprised that it

926
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:42.360
hadn't been addressed?

927
00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:46.260
It looks like Clara's picking up like a grenade of some sort.

928
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:48.840
Yes, you think it's related to what the brothers have done?

929
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:49.860
Yeah, yeah.

930
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:53.699
And then we go all the way through and then he finds that moment

931
00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:58.679
in the timeline of the console bursts through, gives the button

932
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:00.179
and dies in the process.

933
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.159
Is he not disintegrated in the thing?

934
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.559
Like, like, he seems, yeah. yeah, yeah.

935
00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:08.519
And it's picked up from her dialogue where she says, isn't there a

936
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:09.360
big friendly button?

937
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:12.780
And so the doctor gets that thing, which has turned up in the

938
00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:16.139
console room earlier, writes big friendly button on it, gives it

939
00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:17.460
to her, and then presses the button.

940
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:20.519
I think, you know, if you're gonna have a reset button, that's

941
00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:22.440
cleverer than most.

942
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:27.420
And it is clearly explained that he picks it up, the remote for

943
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:31.260
the magnet scoop or whatever it is, from their pockets.

944
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.260
Like he's just randomly picking their pockets as he arrives.

945
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:35.639
Yeah.

946
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:39.960
So it is all very well explained, but it is kind of terrible that

947
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:41.400
that is the solution.

948
00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:45.179
Like Simon says, it's slightly lazy, even though technically it

949
00:42:45.179 --> 00:42:45.360
works.

950
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:46.920
It's a slightly lazy decision.

951
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:48.539
Yeah.

952
00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:52.619
I think, though, that this is such a sort of high concept, kind of

953
00:42:52.619 --> 00:42:57.179
science fiction episode sort of show that it kind of makes sense.

954
00:42:57.300 --> 00:43:01.139
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense, but there's just too much of

955
00:43:01.139 --> 00:43:03.480
it and too much of the other things in the episode, which is kind

956
00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:04.380
of the easy way out.

957
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:08.460
It doesn't feel like anyone's really trying to create, like they

958
00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:10.739
think they, they think they've got the idea of the journey to the

959
00:43:10.739 --> 00:43:11.460
centre of the TARDIS.

960
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:14.340
They've got this Jules Verne title that they're throwing in and 0

961
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:15.300
my god, that's the episode.

962
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:18.599
We've done it. everyone, we've done it.

963
00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:20.159
Let's go for lunch Let's go for lunch.

964
00:43:20.219 --> 00:43:20.519
Yes.

965
00:43:20.579 --> 00:43:24.539
And dude has to go off and write the episode and throws up this

966
00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:26.880
stuff and, you know, who knows what the rationality is.

967
00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:29.519
It's that kind of, you know, it's that two-thirds, three-quarter

968
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:33.539
mark of the season episode, which kind of is just a space.

969
00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:36.300
Space filler is too cruel a word because it's more than that.

970
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:38.579
Is it kind of the that'll do slot?

971
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:40.199
Yes, it's the that'll do slot.

972
00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:42.300
I think it's the and it's a that'll do episode.

973
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:44.519
More so than some of the other that'll do episodes.

974
00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:46.019
I kind of disagree.

975
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:49.440
Okay, because the thing about the 3 stories that he's written.

976
00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:51.179
They're all kind of high concept.

977
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:52.980
So that's curse of the black spot.

978
00:43:52.980 --> 00:43:54.360
Curse of the black spot.

979
00:43:54.420 --> 00:43:56.940
Journey to the centre of the TARDIS and time heights.

980
00:43:57.000 --> 00:43:58.139
They're all big concepts.

981
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.980
I just don't think they'd land as well as they could.

982
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:07.980
I think there's definitely some shortcuts and tropes used in it

983
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:12.360
that are there to get them over the line because they weren't show

984
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:16.139
how to resolve things and they needed too much peril because they

985
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:18.119
thought the concept was a bit thin.

986
00:44:18.179 --> 00:44:23.820
I do suspect this one has, it does have that air of um, a script

987
00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:26.940
that really needed either to be junked or rewritten.

988
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:31.679
It's one of those ones that commits the sin that I don't like it

989
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:33.000
to commit in that.

990
00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:35.159
It's a great potential that is wasted.

991
00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:38.699
As you said, at the beginning, Nathan, we all loved Tegan and

992
00:44:38.699 --> 00:44:41.340
Nissa's bedroom in the visitation and all these other places.

993
00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:43.440
You know, we love the invasion of time, even though it was a

994
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:43.679
hospital.

995
00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:44.460
We love the goblins.

996
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:45.420
We're close to it.

997
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:47.579
Love Lagopolos.

998
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:49.679
And, you know, I even like, you know, attack assignment where he's

999
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:52.199
tinkering with a bit neuron. you know, all that sort of stuff.

1000
00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:52.800
Great.

1001
00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:57.179
And for me, it just does not fulfil what it could have been if I

1002
00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:01.440
if I kind of was able to provide one paragraph to the writer to

1003
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:02.519
say, look, can you do it like this?

1004
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:03.840
And that would have...

1005
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:05.880
The title completely oversells and underdelivers.

1006
00:45:05.940 --> 00:45:06.539
There you go.

1007
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:07.380
That's it.

1008
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:11.820
I have to say, though, that in this most Star Trek Voyager of

1009
00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:17.039
episodes, kind of with the Red Alert, lights and the corridors and

1010
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:17.820
the bits and that.

1011
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:20.340
I mean, of course we're going to have a reset button.

1012
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.559
Well, be listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1013
00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:52.980
We'll be back next week to welcome Emma Peel to the Doctor Who

1014
00:45:52.980 --> 00:45:54.780
family in the Crimson Horror.

1015
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.800
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1016
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:01.920
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1017
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.039
at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website

1018
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.980
FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

1019
00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:12.239
podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and

1020
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:13.920
untitled Star Trek project.

1021
00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:17.880
Until next time, remember that it's probably time you stopped

1022
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:21.119
pulling that prank where you convince your sister-in-law that

1023
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:22.320
she's actually a toaster.

1024
00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:24.840
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1025
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:25.860
Good night.

1026
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.699
Bye for now.

1027
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:27.480
Au voir.

1028
00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:33.539
That was Flight through Entirety.

1029
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:35.940
Sorry, Nathan Bottleley, Peter Griffiths, Matthew Hounsell and

1030
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:36.599
Simon Moore.

1031
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:38.820
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1032
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.059
This episode, the law of conservation of detail was recorded on

1033
00:46:42.059 --> 00:46:45.480
the 19th of June 2022 and released on the 2nd of October.

1034
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:51.179
Here at FDE publishing, we would like to announce the imminent

1035
00:46:51.179 --> 00:46:55.019
release of Nathan and Brendan's big book of the time war, in which

1036
00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:58.380
the authors reveal all their favourite time war moments, and which

1037
00:46:58.380 --> 00:47:01.860
at 500 fully illustrated pages, still manages to be shorter than

1038
00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:03.239
the TARDIS Wakia entry.

1039
00:47:09.059 --> 00:47:12.420
I was wondering whether the reset button is like this kind of

1040
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:16.199
thing so that they can have the big revelation speech, but don't

1041
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:18.000
have to do any of the consequences on it.

1042
00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:20.099
When I looked up, looked up yesterday.

1043
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:21.659
I'm preparing my notes.

1044
00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:27.900
One of the reviews said that it sped the arc, the season arc

1045
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:30.420
forward only to have it then ripped away from you again.

1046
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:31.139
Yeah.

1047
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.260
So the audience is being told this, but the character isn't.

1048
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:35.820
But you see, but it's weird.

1049
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:38.820
This is why I'm saying that the doctor remembers it all because

1050
00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:39.539
he's a timeline.

1051
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:41.639
He remembers through all this kind of crap.

1052
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:46.500
Whereas Clara, with Clara, the humans have a vague sense of it.

1053
00:47:46.739 --> 00:47:51.420
You know, in these time loopy kind of reset episodes, the

1054
00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:56.460
characters almost always retain something from the bit that's been

1055
00:47:56.460 --> 00:47:58.019
erased from their existence.

1056
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:02.519
But so what we get is the opportunity for the doctor to yell at

1057
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.039
Clara is to say, what are you, what are you, what's business, and

1058
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:05.940
for her to deny it all.

1059
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.039
And for them, the luxury.

1060
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:09.840
Yeah, we never have to follow that up.

1061
00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.239
We just know now that the doctor knows what we know, which is the

1062
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.039
fact that, yes, she's just a normal human being.

1063
00:48:14.099 --> 00:48:16.440
And the fact that we've already seen Clara twice before, well

1064
00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:17.880
what's that?

1065
00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:21.420
And like it was the same in Hyde, you know, like, so we didn't

1066
00:48:21.420 --> 00:48:23.579
have any reference to it in Cold War, maybe?

1067
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:26.400
No, Cold War was just an episode from that point.

1068
00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:27.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1069
00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:31.139
There's a moment where Clara opens a book conveniently at the

1070
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:32.519
right spot about the timeline.

1071
00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:34.019
And then at the end of the day.

1072
00:48:34.019 --> 00:48:34.739
Who wrote that book?

1073
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:35.880
Davros?

1074
00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:37.380
Timothy Dalton?

1075
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:38.519
Who wrote that book?

1076
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:40.079
It doesn't matter.

1077
00:48:40.139 --> 00:48:40.800
It doesn't matter.

1078
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:42.900
But the Tarnus opens the book for it, one could argue.

1079
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:44.760
It's book of the time war.

1080
00:48:44.820 --> 00:48:47.400
But isn't that just a representation of what the TARDIS knows

1081
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:48.300
about the time war?

1082
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:51.119
You know, like it's that that's a kind of metaphorical space?

1083
00:48:51.179 --> 00:48:52.619
And so I'm okay with that.

1084
00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:53.699
No one has to have written it.

1085
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:54.480
But that's it.

1086
00:48:54.539 --> 00:48:57.840
I'd forgotten, and it was the thing we had mentioned, that she

1087
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:01.679
knows secrets about him, including his name, and then he's trying

1088
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:04.739
to find out secrets about her and we have this sort of thing, and

1089
00:49:04.739 --> 00:49:05.760
then it just gets wiped.

1090
00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:11.099
So, but her knowledge of him gets wiped as well and I don't know.

1091
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:15.539
It seems, it looks like it's they're trying to create the link to

1092
00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:18.599
the name of doctor. at the end of the thing.

1093
00:49:18.659 --> 00:49:25.199
But it all kind of, it all gets erased by just the reset button.

1094
00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:29.099
And you left you're left kind of in this point where, yes, the

1095
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:32.340
doctor and the audience all know that Clara's not this evil being

1096
00:49:32.340 --> 00:49:33.960
now will move on.

1097
00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:37.019
But why did you need that in the 1st place?

1098
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:38.460
Yeah.

1099
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:40.380
I'm going to take next week.

1100
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:41.699
Crimson R.

1101
00:49:41.699 --> 00:49:42.900
It's got nothing about the...

1102
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:44.099
No, I can't remember.

1103
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:44.699
I can't either.

1104
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:46.440
I don't think I've seen it. isn't it okay?

1105
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:48.960
Isn't the Crimson and Horror the Great Intelligence?

1106
00:49:49.019 --> 00:49:50.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1107
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.679
Is it the Great Intelligence is that appeared, is it?

1108
00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:53.340
No, I can't remember.

1109
00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:55.739
Yeah, isn't it the great intelligence that's driving there?

1110
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:56.880
Mr. Sweeney?

1111
00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:57.599
It's Mr. Sweet.

1112
00:49:57.659 --> 00:49:58.139
Mr. Sweet.

1113
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.360
The king of the... the name of the doctor.

1114
00:50:00.420 --> 00:50:03.719
But in defence of the reset thing because, you see, where I think

1115
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:06.840
the reset thing does work is at the end of episodes like the Big

1116
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:10.139
Bang and Wedding of River song, that has a reset, but it's

1117
00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:10.619
different.

1118
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:11.579
It's more clever.

1119
00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:12.059
It's interesting.

1120
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.199
It feels less like, 0 gosh, is that the time?

1121
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:20.880
You know, it's because you've been on a journey with the

1122
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:23.460
characters to that research as opposed to it just ending the

1123
00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:23.820
plot.

1124
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:24.960
That's there it is.

1125
00:50:25.019 --> 00:50:27.300
And, you know, that's unfortunately, when you're trying to cram

1126
00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:31.739
all this into 44.5 minutes or whatever it is, it's often it's not

1127
00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:32.039
going to work.

1128
00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:34.320
All right, I think we'll wind up.

1129
00:50:34.380 --> 00:50:35.340
That's probably a tag.

1130
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.480
Yeah.

1131
00:50:36.539 --> 00:50:37.320
Cool.

1132
00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:37.860
Excellent.

1133
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:39.119
Oh, and you've already done the outro.

1134
00:50:39.179 --> 00:50:40.739
And we've already done the outro, so we're done.