WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:49:00

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast armed with scissor grenades, limbo

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vapour and triple blast brain splitters, mostly to impress the

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boys.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Stephen, and I'm here for the Steampunk Jacuzzi Party, and my

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Safe Word is Borsch.

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Well, before there was Stromberg, and before there was Drax, there

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was Mrs. Winifred Gilliflower, who planned to reign God's

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judgement upon the world, preserving only the most attractive

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northerners available.

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Let's see if she can be foiled before the rest of us all succumb

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to the Crimson Horror.

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So, gentlemen, Dame Diana Rig.

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Well, I'd like to open this meeting of the Dame Diana Rig

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Appreciation Society, because I'm sitting here in Sydney with

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friends who all are George Diana Rig as much as I do.

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Ever since her ultimate performance of Medea, that's all she's

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ever played.

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Whether it be, you tell me whether it be Andrew Davey's mother

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love. because apparently they couldn't do it.

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I've never seen it.

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I don't think the BBC ever recorded.

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I have.

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On the podcast...

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Oh, no, there was a there was a TV version.

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And friend of the podcast, Fiona Tomney, showed it to me 1000000s

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of years ago when I was visiting her home.

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It was good butt, wasn't it?

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Yeah.

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Oh, yeah, yeah.

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Everyone sees.

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But that's, she's just replaying that part again.

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And I think, you know, Rachel's up for it.

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They haven't worked together very often, have they, Stephen?

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I think this was the 1st time that they actually worked together

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and I'm not sure that they worked again after this, did they?

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Brendan shaking his head.

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No, no.

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No, you're absolutely right.

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And it was all because Mark Gatis was doing a play with Rachel

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Sterling.

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And so I was out to dinner one night with her and with his

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personal friend, Dame Diana Reed.

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See, I was just imagining Gator like fangirling every time he saw

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Rachel Sterling and going, is your mum dropping you off today?

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Is she gonna pick you up?

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No, it turns out he knew Diana before he met Rachel.

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But he was out to dinner with them and just said, well, one, you 2

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have never worked together before.

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And with Mark Gator, so probably went, oh, maybe that's true.

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No, no, no, I've checked.

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I've called up Andrew Pixley and he's confirmed.

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But then he said, would you like to do a Doctor Who together?

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And Rachel's like, yes, I would like to do a Doctor Who.

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And Diana's like, you know, I've never seen it.

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Oh, wow.

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And so the stage manager of the play that Mark and Rachel were

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doing cut together a bunch of villain speeches to show to Diana

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Rigg to convince her to be a villain in Doctor Who, and it

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worked.

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She's incredible.

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And it is that thing where in the Avengers, which is where we kind

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of all got to know and love her.

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She's just the most beautiful and sexy woman ever to appear on

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television.

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Lachrymose saucer comes to mind.

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Oh, just amazingly good.

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She's amazingly bored.

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It's terrific.

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She can be threatened, she can be in peril.

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She just doesn't care.

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She's completely bored and she...

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We did an episode on Bond Finger.

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Well, with someone...

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She's about to be soared in half by a circular source.

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And she's virtually checking her watch.

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Couldn't be more bored. so great.

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But then ever since then, she's just grown old disgracefully.

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Absolutely All her own teeth.

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All her ideas.

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And has played fantastic villains.

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Like, she's not precious.

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She was so beautiful, but she was never precious about that.

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She had a lot of fun being that way, though.

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She had a very good early 70s.

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Oh, I bet she did. switched we may or may not touch on.

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No, we don't have an e-tag on this one.

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A lot of fun.

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My pick of the week, although we're not up to there yet, the and

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Super 8s, she did with her German friend straight after on her

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Madges and they're called the mini killers.

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Have you seen them?

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I have the diadem thief.

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They're extraordinary.

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And they're almost unwatchable.

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And she does all her Avengers stuff in Sherman with Germans around

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her.

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They're kind of silent super eights.

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I'm thinking, he must have been really hot because these are awful

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but and he was.

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And she did these 2 little films in a bikini and all the rest of

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it and it's great and it makes no sense and they're awful and yeah

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they're on YouTube.

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Yep.

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And you can also find them if you have the more recent Avengers

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optimum or Blu-ray sets.

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They are.

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Oh, they like the ones I have.

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Yeah, they are on, I think, the season 5 collection.

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Lovely. in which case I have them.

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Okay.

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There's 5 of them.

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Like they did, for God's sake, mini films.

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They're very Danger Diabolique.

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I was going to say Danger 5.

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Danger the ever liquid Danger fights budget, yeah.

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They're like a sweaty fanboy actually getting Diana Rigg to do

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stuff.

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And the fan reception from 9075 was on his, it's actually Diana

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Ree.

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Yeah.

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Well, while we're talking about sweaty band boys getting Diana

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Rigg to do stuff.

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How do we think this episode goes?

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Really wondering where this is going?

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In my top breed, Stephen.

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Look, I'm not a huge fan of seasons 78 or B, but I think this one

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sort of rises to the top largely because it's so inconsequentially

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and sillily fun.

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And that's what really saves it, I think.

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There's so much wrong with it.

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We'll talk about a few of the things that I don't think really

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work.

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But when you sort of stand back, there's so much to admire simply

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because it just puts a smile on my face.

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It's my favourite Matt Smith episode.

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And I think in large part, it's because of Diana Ring.

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Because I've said before on the podcast that Mark Gatis's writing

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doesn't always resonate with me.

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I don't think he ever does a bad job almost.

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Actually, I would even say sleep no more doesn't do a bad job

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until the last 5 minutes, but this one just sings.

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And I think it's the perfect scissorgy of it's written for Diana

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and Rachel.

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He got them involved before he started writing.

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It's exactly in his wheelhouse.

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He loves his Victoriana.

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He consulted with Matthew Sweet, who is the interviewer on the

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Doctor Who DVD range.

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But yes, that's who Mr. Sweet is named after because it just

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dropped.

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Nathan's eyes just turned into dinner plates.

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But yeah, like, because Matthew Sweet, the TV presenter, had

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written the nonfiction book, inventing the Victorians, where he

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breaks down myths about Victoriana and says, actually, this is

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what really happened.

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And so Mark sort of consulted with him because he wanted to

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deliberately use some of those myths.

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And that's why, for instance, the man who employs Madame Vastra is

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constantly fainting.

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Whereas the only woman who faints does so as a ruse.

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Right.

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You know, so it was breaking down that stereotype of Victorian

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woman getting the vapours and what have you.

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And that's why it's such a woman heavy and woman driven story

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because Mark is like, how many Victorian cliches can I include and

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invert?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, for me, I think it is easily the best of 7B, but that's not

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a massive achievement.

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But it's very, very nearly the best of the season.

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I still think that a town called Mercy probably is my favourite

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but this would have to be second.

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And I think it's incredibly enjoyable.

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I think it's the best Mark Gatis episode or it probably competes

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with the Unquiet Dead for title of best Mark Gatis episode because

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this is absolutely what he's here for.

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It's not just Victorian things.

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It's northern things as well.

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And of course, he comes to us from Royston Vesey.

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And so he does lots and lots of hilarious northern things.

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There's that great line where even Commander Strax is kind of

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slightly terrified by the prospect of going to the north.

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And I think, in addition to that, it's also a story that loves

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Doctor Who and really recycles a lot of the imagery in a lot of

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the troops.

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And a lot of the ideas that I think we've seen in previous Doctor

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Who stories, particularly classic.

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So when we have Jenny open up the, you know, the magic curtain to

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see what's actually making the big noise in the factory, it's

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straight out of the time meddler.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Of course it is.

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Wow, how did I not realise that?

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But it's also filled with all sorts of other Doctor Who sort of

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illusions.

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The octagram, the image in the eye comes straight out of the arc

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in space.

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It feels very horror of fang rock as well in terms of its

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characters and the setting, obviously the Victoriana aspect.

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And Mr. Sweet, I think, is sort of very Brain and Morbius as well

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in a sense, in that sort of body horror aspect that Doctor Who

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does so well.

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So I think it really is a story that sort of is kind of like, what

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does Mark Gators love and puts it all together on a page?

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I got a ghostlight vibe from where Ada is feeding her monster.

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Like she opens the thing and shoves the food under there.

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Yeah, of course.

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But there is heaps of that, isn't there?

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And that's kind of Gatus's job on the show, I think, is he's the

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person who loves the history of the show and its imagery and knows

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what has worked before.

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Maybe even more than the 1st 2 showrunners.

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Yeah, and I think possibly not being a showrunner gives him a bit

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more freedom and perspective because he's not the person who has

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final say.

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He can decide I'm going to put this in and they can take it out if

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they want to.

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Something like the Thomas Thomas joke.

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Which I think is so gloriously terrible that it becomes good

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again.

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Because it's totally played as we know this is awful.

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We know this is too far.

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And it wouldn't surprise me if Mark Gatus is like, I need to

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exorcise this out of my brain and someone will take it out.

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That went to a screen and he's like, no, that was me on Saturday

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morning at 8 AM.

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You shouldn't have included that.

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I really like.

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And I love the kid.

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I love him and Strakes just to hang out together for the rest of

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the episode. 3 times James, and it's a spinoff.

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But they do have lovely comic timing.

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Stark is just gorgeous.

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He's really good, isn't he?

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I'm really glad you touched on the tropes.

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Because I did want to say a little bit on that, that it's not just

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Mr. Gatis.

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There's film references all through this.

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Saul Metstein, the director.

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He did some of our faves, Steven, didn't he?

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So what else did he do?

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Dinosaurs on a spaceship, which you will love.

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Town called Mercy?

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Absolutely.

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Mr. Nathan Love.

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Snowman, which I really love. and maybe my favourite, Matt, just

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because it's so much fun.

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And they were sort of filming this at the same time as the snowmen

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to take advantage of the availability of neat Macintosh and Dan

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00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:03.840
and Catherine.

255
00:12:03.899 --> 00:12:05.220
Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

256
00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:07.320
It's such a great ensemble cast.

257
00:12:07.379 --> 00:12:08.639
But Saul Metz 9.

258
00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:14.399
His dad's a quite a well-known British Scott architect, modernist

259
00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.460
brutalist, modernist architect, and this lad studied architecture

260
00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:19.679
and there's lots of little jokes and references in there, which I

261
00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:21.419
might torture you with as we keep going on.

262
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:25.259
But my favourite film references because this fella also did a

263
00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:29.159
piece or he did his final on James Stewart, Jimmy Stewart, and

264
00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:30.720
he's a mad Hitchcock fan.

265
00:12:30.779 --> 00:12:33.659
And again, the stairs, you go, haven't I seen that in the red

266
00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:33.960
light?

267
00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:35.039
Oh, it's vertigo.

268
00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:38.580
It's Jimmy Stewart looking down the spiral staircase, a vertigo

269
00:12:38.580 --> 00:12:39.720
and that's the rocket silo.

270
00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:43.200
There's lots of little touches, but my favourite is a nod to

271
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.200
Ridley Scott, you know, who would have designed the Dalek.

272
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:50.399
So that 1st scene coming up the cobbled pavers with his peaky

273
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:53.279
blinders cap and his ferret and his rope around his trousers is

274
00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:59.879
exactly the opening of the 1975 Hovis Bread Ad, which made Ridley

275
00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:00.659
Scott's career.

276
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.179
And it, because before that, he was a big, exactly.

277
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.399
It was a BBC designer or the rest of it.

278
00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:08.460
And he'd done ads, but that ad, the Hoverspread ad.

279
00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.320
And I still remember it because it was on in Australia.

280
00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:13.860
It was just the first, it was gloomy and miserable and northern in

281
00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:14.460
other words.

282
00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:15.779
Yeah, that's it.

283
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:17.100
Oh, that's so funny.

284
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.279
And there's little pepperings of that all the way through, which

285
00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:21.899
I'll torture you with as we keep going.

286
00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:22.980
Please do.

287
00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:26.700
The other thing I think this very consciously references is the

288
00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:27.240
Avengers.

289
00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:28.679
Oh, okay.

290
00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:31.740
So, for instance, you have Jenny high kicking in a leather cat

291
00:13:31.740 --> 00:13:32.220
suit.

292
00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:34.500
I was really hoping someone would drink that.

293
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:39.419
But not only that, that whole interplay where the doctor's like, oh

294
00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:42.360
it's attack of the supermodels and he steps forward to do it and

295
00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:43.559
she goes, no, this is me.

296
00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:47.820
That is cribbed from the eagle's nest, which is the 1st episode of

297
00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:51.659
the new Avengers. where Steed steps forward with a gun to take out

298
00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:55.080
some Nazis also with guns and Joanna Lumley steps forward in a

299
00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.179
leotard and says, no, I'm going to kick them in the face.

300
00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:59.759
But something else.

301
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.279
That's what you're meant to do with narcissism.

302
00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:02.940
So if...

303
00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:03.720
And supermodels.

304
00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.559
So if Jenny is Emma Peel.

305
00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:11.519
When Jenny is infiltrating the factory for the 1st time, we cut

306
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.919
back to Madame Vastra's client who, you know, sees tracks and

307
00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:21.179
faints and Vastra, and Strax, then have this sort of back and

308
00:14:21.179 --> 00:14:23.460
forth, Vastra is steed.

309
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.700
Like, she's the one who's off the coffin, nurse tracks, I think we

310
00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:28.080
should, you know, relax a bit.

311
00:14:28.139 --> 00:14:29.700
And I'm thinking, so who is Strax?

312
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:35.879
And it's like, Strax is Tara King. he just wants to go in and

313
00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:36.720
punch everything.

314
00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.879
And if you watch Tara King.

315
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:42.059
Tara King's a brawler, like the follow-up because she's got the

316
00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:42.419
shoulder.

317
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.440
She's got the shoulder.

318
00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:46.080
And same height as Dan's Donkey.

319
00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:46.740
Really?

320
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:47.759
Yeah, yeah, tiny.

321
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:48.360
Yeah, yeah.

322
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:48.840
Yeah.

323
00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:51.899
That's why, you know, when Diana Riggs said child, it's fine.

324
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.600
But when Thorson is said child, she's suddenly a foot taller.

325
00:14:54.659 --> 00:14:59.639
If you watch Emma Peel in the Avengers, she's very graceful in her

326
00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:00.480
fighting style.

327
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.960
It's partially based on ballet and Purdy in the New Avengers is a

328
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.799
ballet dancer and Kathy Gale was doing kung fu.

329
00:15:07.860 --> 00:15:13.259
Tara carried a brick in her handbag and threw pianos Penelope

330
00:15:13.259 --> 00:15:13.740
Keith.

331
00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.440
She was just using whatever was in the environment.

332
00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:18.659
And that strikes because, you know, you have Jenny doing all the

333
00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:19.799
high kicks and what have you.

334
00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:22.500
And then Strax runs in with a gun screaming because he's on a

335
00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:23.100
sugar high.

336
00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:30.539
That's so that's embedded by Mark Gaitis rather than...

337
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:31.080
Do you know what?

338
00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:34.500
I think as you were talking there about how much January is Emma

339
00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:38.159
Peel, I just came to mind, that episode of the Avengers called

340
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:39.539
Death at Bargain Prices.

341
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:39.960
Yes.

342
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:45.059
And there's a moment where Mrs. Peel, basically, in a leather cat

343
00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:47.759
suit, faces down against a, you know, would be attacker, and the

344
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.879
look on a, you know, on her face is, are we going to, I thought

345
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:51.539
we're going to fight.

346
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:53.759
Either way I'm going to really enjoy this.

347
00:15:54.360 --> 00:16:00.360
And she proceeds to beat the living crap out of... making your

348
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.879
fingers and proceeds to be living crap out of the man.

349
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:07.200
And that's exactly also the look that I saw on Jenny's face in the

350
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:07.919
episode as well.

351
00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:10.500
It's just, I don't know whether it's intentional, but of course it

352
00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:13.259
just casts my mind back to the Avengers in so many ways.

353
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:15.240
Engages is a fan.

354
00:16:15.299 --> 00:16:17.159
Oh, yeah. very self-admitted one.

355
00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:17.639
So, yeah.

356
00:16:17.700 --> 00:16:22.500
It's actually incredible how well they all carry the episode

357
00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:24.240
before the regulars turn up.

358
00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:27.480
The doctor's not in it for the 1st 3rd of it.

359
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:30.840
And you actually find yourself not missing here.

360
00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:34.620
I, you know, we got a glimpse of him in the guy's eye just before

361
00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:36.000
we go into the opening credits.

362
00:16:36.059 --> 00:16:39.059
But otherwise we don't have him for quite a long time.

363
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.539
But we've got these regulars, and it's a little bit like the

364
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:45.240
Christmas invasion, and it really highlights the difference

365
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:49.559
between Russell and Moffatt as showrunners, where Russell's

366
00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:56.279
extended cast, you know, Jackie and Harriet Jones and Francine and

367
00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:01.500
Sylvia and all of those people, Wilf, and Moffatt's is a

368
00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:02.340
Santaran.

369
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.660
And like a Silurian from the Victorian era.

370
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.539
And they are in heaps of episodes together.

371
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:13.619
And I did read someone speculating that they kind of are a

372
00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:19.140
hangover from the beryl idea for Jenna Coleman's companion.

373
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.940
Can we brush on that?

374
00:17:21.059 --> 00:17:22.440
Because this is a new for me.

375
00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:23.880
Yeah, so this for anyone else?

376
00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:28.559
So there was some idea that Moffat was originally considering

377
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:33.839
having a companion from Victorian England, played by Jenna Coleman

378
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.799
and she had a name, Beryl, and that survives as Clara in the

379
00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:38.400
snowman.

380
00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:42.900
But we have the doctor regularly going back to the Victorian era

381
00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:46.740
to meet these people and he's specifically done that, hasn't he?

382
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:51.299
The doctor has come back here to see Jenny Vastra and Strakes to

383
00:17:51.299 --> 00:17:55.980
see how they'll react to the new Clara after they experience the

384
00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:58.319
death of the previous Clara in the snowman.

385
00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:03.599
And it's more of his sort of creepy, you know, trying to work out

386
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.079
what this perfectly normal person has going on.

387
00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:10.799
Yeah, and originally, we were going to go from journey to the

388
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.839
centre of the TARDIS into Nightmare in Silver.

389
00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:17.339
And the scene that shot at the end of this episode, most of that

390
00:18:17.339 --> 00:18:20.700
was shot with Journey to the centre of the TARDIS.

391
00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:23.940
The only pickup was her saying, I'm the boss because it references

392
00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:25.019
the previous scene.

393
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:30.480
And so Nightmare and Silver was meant to be the 1st story where

394
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.160
the doctor really accepts Clara.

395
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:35.279
And then we have the doctor acting weird in that story and Clara

396
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:35.819
accepts in.

397
00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.519
So and so we do lose that a bit here.

398
00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:42.000
But instead, what we have is whenever Jenny and Vastra asks Ku

399
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.660
Clara is, the doctor's not really interested anymore, he's just

400
00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:51.539
happy that she's there, which is really great because, um, I did

401
00:18:51.539 --> 00:18:55.319
the funny thing is, my friend Matt was on journey to the centre of

402
00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:57.480
the Tartars, and I said to him, I can't do it with you because

403
00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:59.880
it's in my bottom 5 of all time.

404
00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.519
I find it absolutely terrible.

405
00:19:02.700 --> 00:19:06.779
And the confrontation between that and Jenna and that is so good

406
00:19:06.779 --> 00:19:08.640
but so hard to watch.

407
00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:11.759
I'm kind of really glad they did that in the middle of the season

408
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.460
and then we can have a couple of episodes where they're getting

409
00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:16.319
along, even though Nightmare and Silver is also terrible.

410
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:23.220
But just to have them have fun here with each other and enjoy each

411
00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:23.940
other's company.

412
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:27.960
And something that's so clever about this with the doctor being

413
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.819
absent from like the 1st 3rd is we then get the backstory in a

414
00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:36.299
flashback, which is essentially episode one of a classic series

415
00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:39.299
story, boiled down to 2 minutes.

416
00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.339
And it's so clever.

417
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.039
And I think touching on what you were saying earlier, Stephen, it's

418
00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.940
something only a huge fan of the classic series would be able to

419
00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:50.819
do and still make feel natural.

420
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.660
Like the doctor's like, it's a long story, I'll tell you the short

421
00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:55.140
version.

422
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:58.019
I'll give you the tele snap recon.

423
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:02.460
That's the great thing about it because some of it is like that

424
00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:06.240
found footage from Fury of the Deep, you know, where someone's got

425
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.819
a film camera and they're training it on the set.

426
00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.660
And some of it is just photographs, like between scenes, we have

427
00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:13.380
photographs.

428
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:17.339
And all of the film grain and the film skipping and stuff.

429
00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:21.359
You notice that whenever the crimson horror, like that liquid

430
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:24.660
appears, it's not treated in that way.

431
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.839
So the rest of the film will be really grainy, but it really

432
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.299
brings up that crimson venom.

433
00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:34.019
I think it's really well done and it's surprisingly experimental

434
00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:37.200
for a riser as TRAD as Gaitus, I think.

435
00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:39.299
Yeah, that's a really good point.

436
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:43.859
I mean, it is essentially an act one reduxed at the end of act one

437
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.220
which is, as you say, it's an episode one of Old Classic Hooper

438
00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:47.880
and an absolutely right.

439
00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:48.960
I never thought about that before.

440
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:53.220
But it's also the point where the RAD finishes and the TRAD starts

441
00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:55.920
again. if we move into act three, I think.

442
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:08.819
And I think that kind of strange, perhaps, narrative structure is

443
00:21:08.819 --> 00:21:12.420
also reflected in the strange tonal shifts and sort of clashes

444
00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:14.940
that sort of occur in this story as well.

445
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:19.200
I mentioned before, but Rachel Sterling and Jane Diana Rigg are

446
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.740
wonderful in this, but they are in totally separate productions.

447
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:24.779
They're characters that don't belong in the same story.

448
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.539
There's so much pathos and, you know, incredible just

449
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:31.980
heartbreaking sadness around Rachel Sterling's character as Ada.

450
00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.559
And of course, Dame Diana Rigg is having the time of her life

451
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.700
chewing the scenery.

452
00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:39.420
And you just sort of wonder, how are these 2 characters not just

453
00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:41.579
in the same story, but related to one another?

454
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.960
I think that sort of tonal shift, just sort of results, perhaps

455
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.480
maybe unintentionally from the fact that we're just trying to get

456
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.720
all these different elements together into a story that kind of

457
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.240
feels a bit like classic who and kind of feels like the Avengers

458
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.940
it kind of feels like a number of the other influences that we've

459
00:21:56.940 --> 00:21:57.539
spoken about today.

460
00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:03.059
I think, though, she definitely joins Diana Rigg in her production

461
00:22:03.059 --> 00:22:03.720
at the end.

462
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:08.099
So when she overhears Mrs. Gilliflower kind of saying what she

463
00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:15.000
intends to do to Ada, she absolutely just goes crazy supervillain

464
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:15.539
mode as well.

465
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:16.259
That's where we go.

466
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:17.099
Yeah.

467
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:18.539
I love that so much.

468
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:20.460
I was watching it.

469
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:21.779
I hadn't seen it for a while.

470
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:27.480
And when Mrs. Gilliflowers dying and she says, forgive me, and I

471
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:32.220
knew that Ada said no, but I just loved the response.

472
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:38.160
That's my girl. that's so brilliant I love you, perfidious.

473
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.720
Yeah, he's going full Bob Holmes on the insults.

474
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:44.339
Virago, you know.

475
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:50.519
Um, and the scene before that when the doctor finds Ada distraught

476
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:54.119
that he's escaped, and there's just this moment where the doctor

477
00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:58.259
hesitates, but realises, you know, okay, yeah, there's a missile

478
00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:01.740
about who explode and kill mankind, but this person saved me and I

479
00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:03.299
must comfort them.

480
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.960
And it's so beautiful.

481
00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:11.460
And we've spoken before this series about how sometimes, you know

482
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:16.200
Matt is getting material that's written for Matt because he's good

483
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:20.220
at falling over and stumbling around and going, ah, at otherwise

484
00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:21.660
unexciting moments.

485
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.680
But this is a moment that shows why he has had such an amazing

486
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:26.940
career since.

487
00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:35.339
Just that quiet tenderness and the realisation of why Ada is

488
00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:37.380
really blind.

489
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:41.880
And, you know, someone else I want to praise in that is Jenna

490
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:46.380
Coleman, because I think Amy would have been standing there very

491
00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:48.839
impatiently going, who, well, who are you paying?

492
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:50.160
who is this woman you're paying attention to?

493
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:54.720
Whereas Clara is written much, more like, okay, no, this, there's

494
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:56.880
something happening here that I don't know about and I'm just

495
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:57.420
going to stand back.

496
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:01.200
And then, you know, she does speak up and shocks Ada and she's

497
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.680
like, no, no, I'm a friend. with him, you know, I want to help you

498
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:05.759
as well, et cetera.

499
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:09.299
And again, it's a tonal shift because this whole thing has been

500
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:14.220
sort of painted in poster print colours, you know, and the

501
00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:17.279
characters are painted, and then we have this moment of real human

502
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:22.619
connection and human emotion before the big confrontations at the

503
00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:23.099
end.

504
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.000
And I think it would have been much poorer without that because it

505
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.240
brings it down to the suffering that this character has gone

506
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:30.779
through.

507
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.839
And so at the end, when she's saying, no, I'm going to go out and

508
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:34.980
make a life for myself.

509
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.740
It really hits so hard.

510
00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:42.660
And Matt plays the doctor's face at the end there with such pride

511
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:50.220
that Ada is looking forward and is finding a new way to be and to

512
00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:53.640
create something rather than going down the same path as her

513
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:53.940
mother.

514
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:58.079
I do like the dissonance of the performances that are just

515
00:24:58.079 --> 00:24:59.640
highlights, the difference in character.

516
00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:02.099
And I know you're saying the different productions, but I think

517
00:25:02.099 --> 00:25:04.079
they're both Victorian melodrama.

518
00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:06.420
They both come from the same tropes.

519
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:14.519
And we might be lifting a partial lace veil into the, shall we say

520
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:20.279
the home life of Miss Sterling and Miss Rick because I don't

521
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:20.460
know.

522
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.559
I just don't think where there's art, there's life.

523
00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:28.559
I think I've told this story before on Bondfinger, but I don't

524
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:29.400
think I've told it here.

525
00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:33.119
So, um, yeah, it was shortly before this went out because it was

526
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.359
before I left the UK, but I think Diana and Rachel had been

527
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:37.799
announced as being in Doctor Who.

528
00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:41.579
There was a big Avengers convention which Diana Rick didn't go to

529
00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:43.319
but then she gave her a private talk at the VNA.

530
00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:47.700
And at that, she was talking, you know, Rachel and I have recently

531
00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:49.740
worked together, and of course we were all Doctor Who fans were

532
00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:51.779
like, hey, she's like, oh, the Doctor Who fans are here.

533
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.579
But then the interviewer said, but also, you know, Rachel is

534
00:25:56.579 --> 00:25:59.460
playing a part, you made famous because you did Theatre of Blood

535
00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:03.180
with Vincent Price, and now there's a stage play, and Rachel is

536
00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:03.779
playing your part.

537
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:05.759
How do you feel about that?

538
00:26:05.819 --> 00:26:07.980
And she said, oh, well, you know, I'm very happy with whatever

539
00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:11.400
Rachel plays, and it's very flattering that they're making that.

540
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.799
Oh, but what do you think of the show?

541
00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:15.299
Oh, the show's a piece of shit.

542
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:19.859
But Rachel's doing a marvellous job in a piece of shit as I knew

543
00:26:19.859 --> 00:26:20.519
she would.

544
00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:23.700
I can't tell you if she agrees with me because it's still going on

545
00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:24.420
but...

546
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:30.059
So it seems to me from that that they have a healthier reverence

547
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:30.599
for one another.

548
00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:48.240
Yeah, this is the thing with Gatus.

549
00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:49.380
I want to know what you all think.

550
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.079
He gets this show better than anybody.

551
00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:55.680
He's been a fan as long as and also of all other things he can

552
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:56.099
write.

553
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.279
There's a reason these people are his friends, not just Sterling

554
00:26:59.279 --> 00:26:59.880
but Rig.

555
00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:02.700
It's pretty tough to break into that cabal.

556
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:06.000
And the reason is, as we were just saying, rig and all those other

557
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.400
folk only esteem equals.

558
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:10.380
She is the head girl at Ravenlaw.

559
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.440
She's not a Slytherin, but...

560
00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:14.339
But this is the point.

561
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.119
All his stories, some for some reason to me, never quite hit the

562
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:18.480
mark.

563
00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:22.019
They deflate just before the target, and I don't know why that

564
00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:22.319
is.

565
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:27.059
I actually think this one is pretty successful.

566
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.099
It is the most successful.

567
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:30.180
I think it is the most successful.

568
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.720
I think Unquiet Dead is the story that's kind of been cooking in

569
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.980
his brain for sort of 15 years and has a lot going for it.

570
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:43.440
It's about competing worldviews and, you know, the sense where the

571
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:48.180
unquiet dead is all of us, you know, where all dead but still

572
00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:52.019
walking around and we've got all of that sort of stuff and we

573
00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:53.160
talked about that at the time.

574
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:56.640
I don't think this is about anything in a very deep way.

575
00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:02.339
I think it is a really enjoyable romp that deploys the kind of

576
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:05.819
penny dreadful tropes that we're used to.

577
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:11.099
And maybe the only thing that it does is take a bit of a kick at

578
00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:11.880
religion.

579
00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:17.700
But otherwise, I think it's got no more ambition than just being a

580
00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:19.980
really enjoyable 45 minutes of TV.

581
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:22.380
And that's a pretty good ambition, I think.

582
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.640
And so I think this is pretty great.

583
00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:31.259
Even if I can't see any kind of particular hidden depths to it.

584
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:35.519
Well, I think you're onto something there, Richard, because the

585
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:39.059
3rd act for me is where it falls apart, and it's largely an

586
00:28:39.059 --> 00:28:42.480
issuing of the plot in favour of a reconciliation of the 2

587
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:46.079
characters that also, I said previously, don't exist in the same

588
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.359
narrative, and we're having to sort of bring them together, and

589
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:50.880
that's the focus of the story, as it probably should be when you

590
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.099
got Rachel Sterling and Diane rigged together on screen.

591
00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:56.700
But the plot is something that we've seen before, I think, with

592
00:28:56.700 --> 00:28:57.539
gators.

593
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:01.680
It's the don't launch the thing, whether it's Cold War, or we'll

594
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.420
see again in Robot or Sherwood.

595
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:07.079
There's a variation of that at the end of Idiot's Lantern.

596
00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:09.779
It's kind of just there as a bit of a framework upon which to hang

597
00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:11.099
other things.

598
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:15.720
And in this instance, it's really that it's the crowning jewels in

599
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.599
this whole thing, which is those 2 wonderful actors coming

600
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:19.079
together.

601
00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:22.980
And in the story, these 2 very different characters having to in

602
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:24.420
some way inhabit the same narrative.

603
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:27.839
Now that's entirely speculative on my part, but that's kind of why

604
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.539
I feel it doesn't really work for me in terms of the way that it

605
00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:34.140
sort of hangs together and it is almost less than the sum of its

606
00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:34.380
parts.

607
00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.200
In the course of this discussion.

608
00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:41.460
From all your points, I've had a bit of an epiphany as to why Mark

609
00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:45.660
Gatas's writing is something I find, you know, technically very

610
00:29:45.660 --> 00:29:48.480
good and very entertaining, but doesn't always strike me

611
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.619
emotionally.

612
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.559
And I think it's because we're going to make Simon's head

613
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:53.099
explode.

614
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:56.279
I think it's because he does use a lot of tropes.

615
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:02.279
But he oftentimes falls short of interrogating them.

616
00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:08.039
And so he gets to a point where he goes, and there's this trope

617
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:08.700
okay?

618
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.380
What about it?

619
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.259
And something I was thinking last night when I was doing the

620
00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:14.339
washing up was the kiss.

621
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.819
Yeah, the doctor plants on Jenny.

622
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.039
And this episode has come into criticism for that.

623
00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:23.220
Mark, I think, attempts to redress it in his novelisation, which

624
00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:26.160
is told from Jenny's perspective, and her response to that is

625
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:29.519
basically, I was very happy to see the doctor up and about, but I

626
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.640
tried to keep myself a respectable lady and I like to be asked, so

627
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.420
I punched him.

628
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:36.000
Yeah, but that's in the actual episode.

629
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:37.559
That's in the actual episode as well.

630
00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:41.339
But I think this is an example of a trope that Gait is using

631
00:30:41.339 --> 00:30:44.519
because ever since the telly movie, it's been a trope that the

632
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:46.980
doctor and companion kiss unexpectedly.

633
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:52.859
So with Philip Siegel, it was a Hollywood kiss and in the script

634
00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:55.319
Grace immediately responds with, do it again.

635
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:58.980
With Russell T. Davies.

636
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.940
When the doctor kisses the companion, it's a plot device where, you

637
00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:05.700
know, sucking the time vortex out of rose, or this is a hint that

638
00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:06.359
something's wrong.

639
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:07.920
There's a...

640
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.779
So many excuses afterwards, right?

641
00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:13.380
And you're in front of the manager and the photocopy is now turned

642
00:31:13.380 --> 00:31:13.740
off.

643
00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:15.480
Oh, well, I was sucking out of autism.

644
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.559
You know, needs must.

645
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.480
In the in the Moffat era.

646
00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:27.180
The kisses tend to be an attempt at comedy.

647
00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:29.940
It's like, ooh, isn't Amy naughty?

648
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.980
Ooh, the doctors kissed Rory?

649
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:32.940
Isn't that surprising?

650
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.460
But with Clara.

651
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.619
And this is something you've touched on before, Richard.

652
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:39.720
Because this is the 50th anniversary.

653
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:43.500
They're very much trying for a doctor and granddaughter, protective

654
00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:44.700
relationship.

655
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:47.759
So they're trying not to hint at a romance between the doctor and

656
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:49.859
Clara at this point. certainly not from his point of view.

657
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:53.339
And so we get lines like a skirt that's wrapped a bit too tight

658
00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:56.220
and the doctor looks around himself like, what the hell did I do?

659
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:57.240
Where the hell did that come from?

660
00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:01.140
And any flirtation is coming from Clara, and the doctor's

661
00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:02.400
immensely uncomfortable with it.

662
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:07.140
So it's kind of like they've gone Mark Gaitis and Stephen

663
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:07.740
Moffatt.

664
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:11.700
Okay, the doctor has to kiss someone this half of the season.

665
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:14.099
Who is it going to be?

666
00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:16.680
And of course, we have the kiss with River at the end, but it's

667
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:18.359
like, no, we need our comedy kiss.

668
00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:22.680
And it's one of those things where it has become a trope of the

669
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:26.460
series to the point that they're not questioning why they're doing

670
00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:27.000
it.

671
00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:31.140
And I think even at the time, I thought, oh, that's a bit awkward

672
00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:31.920
you know.

673
00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:35.700
And I kind of went, okay, no, I'm glad she slaps him immediately

674
00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:36.180
afterwards.

675
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:39.900
But it's way back with resurrection, the dialects, Nathan, when

676
00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:43.259
we're talking about how great the scene with Davidson confronting

677
00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:46.380
Deveros is in the discussion of morality, and you just said, or

678
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:49.259
maybe just don't give the doctor a gun and you don't have to

679
00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:50.519
address this problem.

680
00:32:50.579 --> 00:32:52.619
It's like...

681
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:56.700
And yeah, it's a criticism head of talons of Wang Chiang, which is

682
00:32:56.700 --> 00:33:01.980
I think, in some ways, Robert Holmes was trying to criticise the

683
00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:05.400
racism of the era, but just use the racist tropes of the era

684
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:09.180
without going that extra mile.

685
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:13.200
And I think maybe that's sometimes where Gatus falls down, but in

686
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.200
Gatus's case, I think he's trying to be super ambitious because in

687
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:17.460
this he's got tropes of Doctor Who.

688
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:18.720
Tropes of Victoriana.

689
00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:22.380
He's got tropes of the Avengers and he's got tropes of really, you

690
00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:24.119
know, bond films and whatnot.

691
00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:30.000
And I kind of love, he's even using his own tropes because when

692
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.440
Mrs. Gilliflower is screaming about how experimenting on Ada was

693
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:34.859
necessary.

694
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.920
I just heard Mr. Connolly and the idiot's lantern.

695
00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:38.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

696
00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:41.279
Both stories have a monster upstairs.

697
00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:42.180
Yeah.

698
00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:46.200
And just like David's upstairs in Tubbs and Edwards shop.

699
00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:49.500
And that's a kind of weird Victorian trope.

700
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:56.099
There's a moment where we see posters all over the place for Mrs

701
00:33:56.099 --> 00:34:01.140
Gilliflower's big, you know, sermon, just like we saw posters for

702
00:34:01.140 --> 00:34:03.779
Lisa and Chang, of course, and talents of Wang Chiang.

703
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.539
But there's one where it's next to a poster, which you only see

704
00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:10.019
very briefly, which says come and see the freaks on it.

705
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:14.880
And that's the role that kind of Ada is playing and it's also the

706
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:17.400
role that Mrs. Gilliflower is playing.

707
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.599
And the League of Gentlemen is all about super grotesque people

708
00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:26.039
sometimes in a way that's now uncomfortable in hindsight, but the

709
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:31.679
grotesquery of Victoriana and the Penny Dreadful are really, really

710
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.980
sort of key to the sort of thing that Gatus wants to write about, I

711
00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:35.219
think.

712
00:34:36.059 --> 00:34:44.880
And I think also making Ada's, and I'm using air quotes here

713
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.820
freakishness be the fact that she is blind.

714
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.000
Whereas that is something today, and of course, blind people still

715
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:52.260
face discrimination today.

716
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.179
But far less than they did at the time.

717
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:56.940
I think it's a very effective thing for a modern audience to then

718
00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:01.019
go, 0 my god, like back then they would parade these people.

719
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:05.519
Like Ada is literally behind a curtain during the 1st sermon and

720
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.119
is revealed to gas from the audience and Jenny is our audience

721
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:11.639
identification character and she looks around disgusted at these

722
00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:14.280
people because she's just like, there's nothing wrong with her.

723
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:15.179
She just can't see.

724
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:16.980
The education.

725
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:20.460
And I like that this is very to Northern, isn't it?

726
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:26.760
I know he's having a brogue 18 hole boot kick at a lot of his own

727
00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:28.019
childhood and his writings.

728
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:33.960
And education was Bible based, even in the 60s in primary schools

729
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.940
that was still quoted.

730
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:41.579
So your incapacities represented a moral turpitude of some type or

731
00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:42.179
another.

732
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:43.079
Yeah.

733
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:47.340
All that, you know, you were born with sin, as is said in this

734
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:48.179
episode, yeah.

735
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:53.820
So Gilliflowers type of Christianity is a very Protestant type.

736
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.920
It's not Church of England or Catholic at all.

737
00:35:55.980 --> 00:36:01.559
And the 2 things that I think of are Bournville, which was the

738
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:05.340
Cadbury plan.

739
00:36:05.340 --> 00:36:11.340
Quakers, very, very much like Sweetville as a kind of, you know

740
00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:14.880
it's a dry, I think even now you can't buy alcohol around there

741
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.460
it's very, very Protestant.

742
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:19.679
You can stone unmarried mother.

743
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:20.400
Yes.

744
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.099
Well, on even dose of the week.

745
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:25.079
Got to do something in the evenings.

746
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:32.099
But also, in vile bodies, and this is obviously much later, in

747
00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:34.980
Evelyn Warsvile bodies, there's a character called Mrs. Melrose

748
00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:39.300
Ape, and she's an American, and she holds these old-time revival

749
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:44.340
meetings, and she has a choir of young women in angel costumes, who

750
00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:46.860
are every bit as good as they should be, I think.

751
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:51.000
And that's kind of what it reminds me of, this sort of fire and

752
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:55.980
brimstone sermonising is incredibly Protestant, it's not

753
00:36:55.980 --> 00:36:58.019
particularly English.

754
00:36:58.019 --> 00:37:04.559
And placing that in the context, making that the location where

755
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:09.300
the world is going to be destroyed from, I think, is a kind of

756
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:11.940
vague critique of religion.

757
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.280
And Gatis hasn't always done that.

758
00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:19.079
He's reasonably sympathetic to Gwyneth's religion and presents it

759
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:22.199
to the audience as something that they might not have been aware

760
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:22.739
of.

761
00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:26.820
But here I do think he's giving it a fairly thorough kicking.

762
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.820
I think that comes back to a very early idea.

763
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:34.500
He had for the unquiet dead, which was about a dodgy spiritual

764
00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:34.980
medium.

765
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:39.119
So I think, you know, much like Russell in gridlock.

766
00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:42.480
It's it's not religion or religiosity.

767
00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:46.320
It's manipulative evangelism. in a way.

768
00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:51.000
And, you know, it's something that has been done in Doctor Who

769
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:53.760
before in that it's not the belief that's the problem, is what

770
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:54.719
people do in the name of it.

771
00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:09.179
Just as he was speaking there, Brendan, I think one of the things

772
00:38:09.179 --> 00:38:12.239
that really sort of is underlined is that Gatus has got form for

773
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:12.539
this.

774
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.500
He consistently doesn't necessarily interrogate a lot of the

775
00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:18.780
tropes that he brings up.

776
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:20.579
And, you know, going back to unquiet day.

777
00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:24.539
And just the way that he couldn't have at all conceived that this

778
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:28.860
was, you know, something that could have been read in an anti

779
00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:31.380
refugee kind of way is kind of baffling.

780
00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:35.400
And I think that maybe is just maybe a natural blind spot for him

781
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:38.579
as a writer and that those things are sort of inherent in the way

782
00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:42.119
that he writes and will always be there in his episodes and maybe

783
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:44.400
going back to your point, Richard, maybe that's also something

784
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:48.119
that counts against that sense that something isn't quite pulling

785
00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:48.480
off here.

786
00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:51.900
There's a problem inherent in Doctor Who, though, isn't there

787
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:53.460
where aliens are evil?

788
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:58.019
And so that's going to be a trope that when he's writing for

789
00:38:58.019 --> 00:39:01.320
Doctor Who that he can barely afford to examine, I think.

790
00:39:01.380 --> 00:39:03.119
That's possible, true.

791
00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:04.739
Yeah, especially in the Unquiet Dead.

792
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.260
But, you know, here we have, you know, a setting in Victorian

793
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:07.679
England.

794
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:10.800
There's no real mention of, you know, the Victorian workhouses.

795
00:39:10.860 --> 00:39:13.320
It's sort of presented, as you say, in a sort of Bournville kind

796
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:13.739
of manner.

797
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:18.239
That whole trope isn't really necessarily interrogated, I don't

798
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:18.360
think.

799
00:39:18.420 --> 00:39:20.639
And again, it's that story.

800
00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:23.039
Maybe it's just the stories is not designed to do that.

801
00:39:23.099 --> 00:39:26.219
It's really just designed to, you know, lead up to a don't launch

802
00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:27.539
the thing that actually launches.

803
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:31.440
And then that reconciliation or a, not a reconciliation, but

804
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:35.820
really a sort of a confrontation between the 2 characters that the

805
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:37.320
whole story's been sort of building up to.

806
00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:40.860
I mean, I think I think that's okay.

807
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:44.579
I don't think that every Doctor Who story has to be ambitious.

808
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.300
And I think had Doctor Who come back and been like this all the

809
00:39:48.300 --> 00:39:48.659
time.

810
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.420
I think I would have been disappointed.

811
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:55.199
The fact that it came back and started to do things that it had

812
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:58.619
never done before, that makes it worth bringing it back.

813
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:03.539
Here, I think doing something nostalgic is okay.

814
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:09.480
And I think he does it well for a 45 minute episode as well.

815
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.579
Like it's really well paced.

816
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:13.019
It doesn't drag.

817
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:14.159
It moves along.

818
00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:19.380
It has funny bits in it and action bits and, you know, Dan Starkey

819
00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:22.139
with a big gun and I kind of think I'm fine with that.

820
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.440
You know, next week something worse will happen, obviously.

821
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:29.099
But it's going to be different next week.

822
00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:33.719
Something I want to praise Mark Gators for here that he does

823
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:39.539
different to usual is quite often when he writes a villain, he

824
00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:42.300
will present them in some way sympathetically.

825
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.000
And I think even someone like Mr. Connolly, who's a horrible human

826
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.039
being, when he's giving his justification, sort of in the

827
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:52.559
performance and in the script, he's sort of listening to himself

828
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.199
speaking, kind of starts to go, oh, wait, no.

829
00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:56.760
Is that is that what I really sound like?

830
00:40:56.820 --> 00:41:00.119
And, you know, he's given a repudiation and as uncomfortable as

831
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:03.780
the end of the idiot's lantern is when Rose is like, no, he's, you

832
00:41:03.780 --> 00:41:04.800
know, go after him.

833
00:41:04.860 --> 00:41:08.159
At the same time it's like, well, that's still a real person.

834
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:12.719
And, you know, um, the gel for real people.

835
00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:17.159
They're given motivation and they're given agency, night terrors

836
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.400
the horrible old landlord, after he's been through his ordeal

837
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.179
cuddles his dog.

838
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:22.079
You know what I mean?

839
00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:26.219
Here, Mark Gators is like, no, I'm writing a villain who knows

840
00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:27.360
that she's evil.

841
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.539
Like, do you know what these are, doctor?

842
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:31.860
The wrong hand.

843
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.320
I can't believe we haven't spoken about that yet.

844
00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:40.019
And yet Mark Gators gives himself license to go, no, this person

845
00:41:40.019 --> 00:41:41.639
is actually thoroughly evil.

846
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:46.500
Like it's not Professor Zarov, whose family died in a car accident

847
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:47.760
so he wants to destroy the world.

848
00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:51.480
It's like, no, no, this person wants the world to herself.

849
00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:55.260
She's willing to sacrifice her own daughter to do it.

850
00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:56.699
She has no sentimentality.

851
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.380
She has no redeeming features.

852
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:01.440
And I'm going to get a national treasure to play her.

853
00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:04.320
It's so good.

854
00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:06.900
Diana Rig must have had so much fun.

855
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:09.599
And I think it would have been a mistake to give her any

856
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:15.300
interiority or any complexity beyond I'm just an evil villain and

857
00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:16.619
she does it so well.

858
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:20.159
She's just so tremendously loathsome and magnificent.

859
00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:22.199
She has been playing this part for 30.

860
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:25.139
Yeah, yeah, by the time.

861
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:27.000
No, no, what else have you seen her do?

862
00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:27.719
That's it.

863
00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:30.000
Yeah, so magnificent.

864
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:32.039
Did she do any Sondheim?

865
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:33.119
she did, didn't she?

866
00:42:33.179 --> 00:42:37.920
Little night music or follies on stage in the UK.

867
00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:39.300
I think she has done sometime.

868
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.420
So anyway, we, you know, so just got the range.

869
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:50.880
But she does, you know, look at her careers, we do. quite a bit.

870
00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:53.039
This...

871
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:56.940
I'm wondering who's going to pick up the, the petticoat trails of

872
00:42:56.940 --> 00:43:01.920
this because she's, she really was the go to for grandmas, you

873
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:03.480
don't want to spend a lot of time.

874
00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:07.739
I hadn't seen her Game of Thrones too.

875
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:09.000
No, what she like in that?

876
00:43:09.059 --> 00:43:10.800
She is magnetic.

877
00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.780
She is magnificent.

878
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:18.420
Because also, I think around the time she did Doctor Who, I think

879
00:43:18.420 --> 00:43:19.860
she had a Neil hip replacement.

880
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.199
So she's moving quite well in Doctor Who, but in Game of Thrones

881
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.840
she's getting around with a stick and I think that was, you know, a

882
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:25.860
function of the actor.

883
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:30.000
But it just means that the scene can start with Diana 5 paces away

884
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.519
from a table and then she's going to sit down and everything else

885
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:37.199
is going to literally revolve around her. it's absolutely the

886
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:37.860
right decision.

887
00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:42.599
And the great thing is she gets in game 3 and she gets villain

888
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:46.199
confrontation scenes, she gets sympathy scenes with the heroes.

889
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:52.500
Sophie Turner's character, Sansa, goes through a whole heap of bad

890
00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:54.719
stuff throughout the whole of the series.

891
00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:57.840
And Diana Rigg is her advisor in some of the earliest.

892
00:43:57.900 --> 00:44:00.239
I was saying, look, there are going to be ways you're going to

893
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:00.900
have to deal with this.

894
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:02.760
And they're really great together.

895
00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:05.639
So you have Diana, who at this point was in her 70s and Sophie

896
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:08.940
Turner, who I think is around 20 during the Game of Thrones.

897
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.880
So you have this performance across the generations.

898
00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:16.619
And I think that's something about Diana Rigg, in that whatever I

899
00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:19.739
see her in, whether she's acting with an actor of her own

900
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:24.300
generation or a younger generation, there's never an air of I'm

901
00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:28.860
better at this than you, is she reacts and responds to talent.

902
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:33.300
And the scenes where she's talking to Matt, you know, she and

903
00:44:33.300 --> 00:44:35.280
Jenna don't have much really to do together.

904
00:44:35.340 --> 00:44:39.119
But the moments with Matt are so brilliant and they're bouncing

905
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:40.380
off each other so well.

906
00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:44.940
And her final film performance last night in Soho, Matt's in that

907
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:45.179
too.

908
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:46.199
Oh, wow, okay.

909
00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:50.519
I haven't seen it, but yeah, so her final film performance also

910
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:51.900
features Matt Smith.

911
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:55.139
But, you know, Matt's doing his usual thing where he confronts

912
00:44:55.139 --> 00:44:58.920
Villain where I'm going to have a big smile on my face, but my

913
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:00.599
eyes are telling you you're in big trouble.

914
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.420
And she's like, I literally don't care.

915
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:07.920
You know, I'm not one of these kids you can make feel bad that

916
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.719
you've done for the last 2.5 years.

917
00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:11.880
No, I am totally evil.

918
00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:13.739
I've got my plan.

919
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:15.059
I've got Moroccet.

920
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:21.659
I've got my little friend who I, who I feed my salt and um, oh, by

921
00:45:21.659 --> 00:45:25.559
the way, this is the, this is the hilarious cigarette, the organ

922
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:30.119
turns around to reveal basically another orc.

923
00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:33.659
It looks like a the Babbage difference engine.

924
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:35.400
Yes, with all of those wheels.

925
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:39.300
And it's just a fantastic moment when, you know, the doctor's

926
00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:43.139
going to Sonica and Clara just picks up a chair and smashes it to

927
00:45:43.139 --> 00:45:43.559
pieces.

928
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:45.900
I've got a chair.

929
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:47.159
So good.

930
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.860
It's not something that has a massive amount of substance because

931
00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:57.179
they're clearly just having so much fun making it.

932
00:45:57.179 --> 00:46:00.300
And I think it's definitely okay to do something like that every

933
00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:01.019
so often.

934
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:04.019
It, like, Terra the Vervois is my favourite Colin Baker, and I'm

935
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:06.719
not going to pretend that has a hell of a lot of substance, but it

936
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.059
has brilliant actors giving great performances.

937
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.199
It's got florrid dialogue that makes fun of itself.

938
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:17.820
It's got great chemistry between Colin and Bonnie.

939
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:20.400
And here, even though they don't have as many scenes together.

940
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:22.619
You've got great chemistry between Matt and Jenna.

941
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.199
Like when she's revived and falls out of the thing and she's a bit

942
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.199
faint and he gives her a kiss on the forehead and she kind of sees

943
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:30.420
Vastra, but she doesn't freak out, but she just sort of looks at

944
00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:32.400
the doctor like, just explain when you're ready.

945
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:34.800
No, he just says she's a lizard.

946
00:46:34.860 --> 00:46:36.480
Yeah, but that's the thing.

947
00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:38.280
She's been travelling for a while now.

948
00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:42.179
She knows not to say something that might, you know, make the

949
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:45.780
situation worse. contrast a few years later to Bill, like, 0 my

950
00:46:45.780 --> 00:46:46.559
god, he's blue.

951
00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:47.760
Racist.

952
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:52.679
What do you think of Vastra's veil that no one can sing through

953
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:53.639
and accept the audience?

954
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:59.219
Yeah, I think it's a, you know, it's a bit like the Daleks in the

955
00:46:59.219 --> 00:46:59.760
classic series.

956
00:46:59.820 --> 00:47:01.139
When the mesh is lit properly.

957
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.420
You can't see Michael Somerton inside.

958
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:08.519
So we have to assume that the lighting is a bit worse for the

959
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:09.239
subject object.

960
00:47:09.300 --> 00:47:11.940
I mean, I think it is deliberate, isn't it?

961
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.099
It's just like Clark Kenton his glasses.

962
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:17.219
Or Diana Prince and her glasses.

963
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.159
Steve Trevor and his heterosexuality.

964
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:23.880
Title.

965
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:29.880
I'm also just wondering whether the veil isn't some sort of

966
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:33.300
illusion, and I might be wrong here to the woman in wine, which is

967
00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:37.679
that 1st er Detective Victorian text that we get, that obviously

968
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.780
Vastra seems to be a descendant of as well, maybe?

969
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:41.159
Yeah, could be that.

970
00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:42.900
I mean she's Sherlock Holmes, isn't she?

971
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:43.860
Absolutely, she is, yeah.

972
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:44.280
Yeah.

973
00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:46.320
No, I mean, like quite literally within the show.

974
00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:50.940
She gets told that Dr. Doyle is writing about her.

975
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:52.079
Yeah, yeah.

976
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.820
Well, also one of the untold stories of Sherlock Holmes that

977
00:47:56.820 --> 00:48:01.019
Watson refers to at some point is a story about the red leech.

978
00:48:01.139 --> 00:48:02.940
Ah, thank you.

979
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:04.500
That's what I was trying to think of, yes.

980
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:05.340
Yeah, yeah.

981
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.099
And so when the doctor's like, oh, you know, the mystery of the

982
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:08.460
red leech.

983
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:10.320
No, I prefer the crimson horror.

984
00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:14.400
That's so good.

985
00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:19.320
I am absolutely on board with all of the puppet monsters, In

986
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:19.800
Doctor Who.

987
00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:21.179
More puppets, please.

988
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:24.300
I love that this one comes out of one of those gumball machines

989
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:26.280
1970s.

990
00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:27.840
She put in 5 cents little capsule.

991
00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:31.139
It's that thing with the big claws and he was latex. you

992
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:31.320
remember?

993
00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:32.639
It was a finger puppet, wasn't he?

994
00:48:32.699 --> 00:48:34.320
You could put him on your finger and go, wobble.

995
00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:36.300
I wasn't going to go there, but since you've decided to.

996
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:37.739
Yes.

997
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.500
I think I think their relationship was most intimate.

998
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.440
Oh God, she loves it, doesn't she?

999
00:48:43.500 --> 00:48:48.360
Really, just to get to see Diana Rick hoisting round, you know, Emo

1000
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:52.860
on meth. the entire thing.

1001
00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:54.480
Why didn't she do more of these?

1002
00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:57.239
You know, I didn't live long enough.

1003
00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:57.780
I know.

1004
00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:01.920
You know, she lived for almost another 8 years after this, you

1005
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:02.099
know.

1006
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:07.380
I think for someone of Diana Rigg's calibre, the appeal is doing

1007
00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:07.920
something new.

1008
00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:09.179
Yeah.

1009
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:12.300
And yeah, she's never had, yes.

1010
00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:14.639
There's that boredom threshold again.

1011
00:49:14.699 --> 00:49:15.539
Yeah, yeah.

1012
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:16.019
Yeah.

1013
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:16.500
Yeah.

1014
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:17.039
Well, yeah.

1015
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:19.920
Part of the reason she left the Avengers, while she wanted to do

1016
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.920
new things because she got the pay rise she wanted in the 2nd

1017
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:27.059
series, but quite sensibly said, you know, I will have done 50 of

1018
00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:27.300
these.

1019
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.300
It's time to do something new, and of course, career then

1020
00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:31.139
skyrocketed.

1021
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:36.659
And I think, you know, being a florid out and out villain with no

1022
00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:40.380
redeeming features whatsoever and a red puppet clamps to your

1023
00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:43.739
chest definitely qualifies as new.

1024
00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:46.380
I love the puppet.

1025
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:48.000
I just think the puppet is fantastic.

1026
00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:53.099
And it is this superb moment where Ada just kind of goes forward

1027
00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:56.460
and just beats the living crap out of it, like squashes it to

1028
00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:59.159
death while they're thinking about taking it back to the

1029
00:49:59.159 --> 00:49:59.579
Jurassic.

1030
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:04.019
Yeah, and I love that that whole sort of 3 or 4 minute section

1031
00:50:04.019 --> 00:50:10.320
really is gatus undermining the Doctor Who ending trope.

1032
00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:13.320
It's like taking the gravis to another party.

1033
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:14.340
Yeah, yeah.

1034
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:17.400
But, you know, it's 1st of all, the doctor's like, though them is

1035
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:20.460
gillyflower, you will come with us, but then Strax accidentally

1036
00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:23.699
shoots out the bannister and she falls 4 floors.

1037
00:50:23.699 --> 00:50:27.360
And I am the doctor is playing and it just recedes the background

1038
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:28.800
as Matt goes, ooh, ow.

1039
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:34.320
And then it's like, okay, well, we'll rescue the...

1040
00:50:34.380 --> 00:50:35.940
Oh, wait, no, Rachel's gone.

1041
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:40.559
And the end of the scene is the doctor just going, ooh.

1042
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.920
Well, there, sir, that's all we have time for this week.

1043
00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:08.579
We'll be back next week for an episode extracted from us through

1044
00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:12.239
blackmail, Neil Gaiman's Nightmare in Silver.

1045
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:16.260
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1046
00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:18.719
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1047
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.599
at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website

1048
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:24.599
FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

1049
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:29.639
podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled

1050
00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:30.840
Star Trek project.

1051
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:33.360
Stephen, where can people find you?

1052
00:51:33.420 --> 00:51:37.559
You can find me on Twitter at Steed Stylin, all one word and

1053
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:41.219
without the G. You can find me also add new to who podcast and

1054
00:51:41.219 --> 00:51:44.039
we're at www.newdoo.com.

1055
00:51:44.099 --> 00:51:45.719
Until next time.

1056
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:48.539
Remember that when it's just too much trouble to whisk your enemy

1057
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:52.139
off to the planet Kolkakron, several heavy blows from a walking

1058
00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:54.300
stick can be just as effective.

1059
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:56.460
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1060
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:58.559
I hope my teeth don't let me down.

1061
00:51:58.679 --> 00:51:59.039
Good night.

1062
00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:00.840
E, back warm.

1063
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:01.260
Good night.

1064
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:02.039
You see?

1065
00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:09.179
That was Flight through Entirety.

1066
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:11.460
Sorry, Nathan Bottomley, Stephen B, Brendan Jones, and Richard

1067
00:52:11.460 --> 00:52:12.000
Stone.

1068
00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:14.280
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1069
00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:17.880
This episode, Strax, as Tara King was recorded on the 25th of

1070
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:20.940
September 2022 and released on the 9th of October.

1071
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:28.019
Fans of the William Hartman era, which is all of you really should

1072
00:52:28.019 --> 00:52:31.320
stick around to the end of these credits to hear a convention

1073
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:35.340
anecdote from Brendan, which is heartwarming, instructive, and

1074
00:52:35.340 --> 00:52:36.719
also somewhat alarming.

1075
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:47.219
I will also say, and this can possibly be cut, as it's an end joke

1076
00:52:47.219 --> 00:52:50.699
of an end joke, but, you know, when Diana revealed Mr. Sweet, I

1077
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:52.860
just thought of the name Barbara Joss for some reason.

1078
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:53.639
Oh, no.

1079
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:55.260
Tag.

1080
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:59.639
But I do hope she's still out there because she's fabulous.

1081
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:01.019
Stephen knows that story, doesn't he?

1082
00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:02.699
Oh my god.

1083
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:03.539
Okay, come on.

1084
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.260
Okay, so... many...

1085
00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:07.860
2005.

1086
00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:08.820
It was 2005.

1087
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:13.199
And we were having a big who venture and it was in Sydney.

1088
00:53:13.260 --> 00:53:15.059
And it was just after the new series came back.

1089
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:16.679
So it's like, get as many guests as possible.

1090
00:53:16.739 --> 00:53:18.780
So we had.

1091
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:19.679
Oh, yeah.

1092
00:53:19.739 --> 00:53:24.599
So we had India Fisher, Fraser Hines, Debbie Watling, Rob Schimman

1093
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:29.460
Kate Orman, Katie Manning, and on one day, Barbara Joss, we

1094
00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:31.800
discovered this actress, Barbara Joss, lived in Sydney.

1095
00:53:31.860 --> 00:53:33.599
And you did the interview.

1096
00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:34.619
I did the interview.

1097
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:36.000
This is where we're going.

1098
00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:42.599
And so Barbados had played one of the Optera in the web planet.

1099
00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:46.320
And she's the one, Nemone, who sticks ahead in the acid.

1100
00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:47.219
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1101
00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:53.940
And also later in the chase doubles for Vicky on location running

1102
00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:57.360
up the sand dunes because Maureen O'Brien couldn't get was

1103
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:57.719
rehearsing.

1104
00:53:57.780 --> 00:53:59.579
It's a tenuous league, but okay.

1105
00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:05.519
Well, um, when we asked her to appear, we found her because she

1106
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:10.440
had um, a website as she had survived breast cancer and vasectomy

1107
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:13.619
and had written a book about it and, you know, rediscovering her

1108
00:54:13.619 --> 00:54:16.980
womanhood after this, after this operation.

1109
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:18.780
What was the book called, Brendan?

1110
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:20.940
Was it called my left breast?

1111
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:22.079
It was.

1112
00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:22.619
Yeah.

1113
00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:27.239
She did she did give me a copy, but then someone else she sold out

1114
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:29.519
of the copy she brought on the day and she was so impressed.

1115
00:54:29.579 --> 00:54:31.260
She's like, I didn't think Doctor Who fans would want to read

1116
00:54:31.260 --> 00:54:31.739
this.

1117
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.800
But anyway, and she did give me a copy, but then someone else

1118
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:35.579
wanted to buy one.

1119
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:38.699
I said, I'm not depriving you of your profit from your book.

1120
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:39.780
You can send my and never did.

1121
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:40.380
That's fine.

1122
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:42.300
So anyway, I'm doing the interview with that.

1123
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:46.139
And I said, look, obviously, before the interview, I said this.

1124
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:48.119
Obviously, you know, you were only in a little bit of Doctor Who

1125
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:50.219
so I'm quite happy for the interview to just be a little bit

1126
00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:53.099
Doctor Who and also about your book because fans actually love

1127
00:54:53.099 --> 00:54:55.019
hearing about the personal lives of the actors.

1128
00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:56.039
She's like, oh, okay.

1129
00:54:56.099 --> 00:55:00.360
And so 1st of all, we showed the clip of Nemone sticking ahead.

1130
00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:04.139
And I kind of said to her, so, you know, that would have been a

1131
00:55:04.139 --> 00:55:05.280
week's rehearsal and then filming.

1132
00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:07.199
What do you remember about the week?

1133
00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:08.519
And she's like, oh, nothing, darling.

1134
00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:12.659
And then she's like, no, no, no.

1135
00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:16.320
I remember it all. and, you know, William Hartner was, William

1136
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:17.099
Hartner was lovely.

1137
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:18.539
And they all used to bring us lunch.

1138
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:22.440
You know, they used to bring in a chicken and salad and things and

1139
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:25.440
we started to bring in, and no, yeah, it was great.

1140
00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:28.440
And then she got to talking about the book and she read an extract

1141
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:31.739
which was the 1st time she went home with a man after having the

1142
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:33.360
removal, et cetera.

1143
00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:35.219
And it was really quite moving.

1144
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:38.699
And then she said, so, you know, of course, I've had it removed.

1145
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:40.199
But as you can see, I've had it reconstructed.

1146
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:44.039
And she said, they take they take some fat from here, which is

1147
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:44.820
great, ladies.

1148
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:45.780
Yes, right.

1149
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.460
They take some fat from here and put it up.

1150
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:48.119
Would you like to see it?

1151
00:55:48.179 --> 00:55:50.219
There's no nipple, so it doesn't count as nudity.

1152
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.980
And then she rips her shirt.

1153
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.179
Oh, kidding me?

1154
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:55.739
No, no, I'm not.

1155
00:55:55.739 --> 00:55:56.940
Very young Brendan.

1156
00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:57.539
Yep.

1157
00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:00.480
So I would have been 22, I think.

1158
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:03.599
And to top it all off.

1159
00:56:03.900 --> 00:56:06.659
Originally, the guest for this convention was Louise Jameson, whom

1160
00:56:06.659 --> 00:56:07.980
my mother had always wanted to meet.

1161
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:09.900
So my mum was in the audience.

1162
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:11.579
Oh, my God.

1163
00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:14.760
And afterwards, I sort of say to Barbara.

1164
00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:17.699
Okay, so your signing is in about half an hour.

1165
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:19.500
Would you like to go back to the green room, what would you like

1166
00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:19.739
to do?

1167
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:22.860
And they were showing some clips from upcoming heart little DVDs?

1168
00:56:22.860 --> 00:56:24.239
And she's like, well, actually, this was my era.

1169
00:56:24.300 --> 00:56:25.380
So can I just sit in the back here?

1170
00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:26.699
Oh, of course you can.

1171
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:30.900
I'm just going to pop outside and I'll come back and get you.

1172
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:32.760
And I sort of said to some one of the other conventional

1173
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:33.239
organisers.

1174
00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:34.739
Barbara's over there so she needs anything.

1175
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:36.000
And I go outside.

1176
00:56:36.059 --> 00:56:38.460
My mum comes and finds me and she says, do you need a drink?

1177
00:56:41.460 --> 00:56:46.500
Yeah, so when Diana Rigg rips open, I think.

1178
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:47.699
It's like I remember this.

1179
00:56:47.820 --> 00:56:53.340
So my memory of that is walking into the room and just hearing the

1180
00:56:53.340 --> 00:56:55.739
words and that's when my pubes fell.

1181
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.059
Okay, it wasn't Brendan's.

1182
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:02.639
Sadly not.

1183
00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:06.960
I think...

1184
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.780
That has to be the tax.

1185
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.440
I reckon I found an ow, you know, because we do there are enough

1186
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:16.500
sort of climactic hits where I can move something.

1187
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:17.400
I think we're okay.

1188
00:57:17.460 --> 00:57:18.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1189
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:18.900
What do you think?

1190
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:21.960
I don't know if I've got anything else to say.

1191
00:57:22.019 --> 00:57:24.059
We pretty much mentioned everything, I think.

1192
00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:28.260
Maybe maybe drop this back in to the Barbara thing.

1193
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:32.400
And during our signing, the great thing was there were so many

1194
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.380
young women coming up to her and saying, look, thank you for

1195
00:57:34.380 --> 00:57:37.260
talking about that because it is something that isn't talked about

1196
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:37.739
enough.

1197
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:40.019
And she was really touched by that.

1198
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:41.099
Yeah.