WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:24:53 1 00:00:36.179 --> 00:00:48.060 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast armed with scissor grenades, limbo vapour and triple blast brain splitters, mostly to impress the boys. 2 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:49.979 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:50.640 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:57.420 I'm Stephen, and I'm here for the Steampunk Jacuzzi Party, and my Safe Word is Borsch. 5 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:13.260 Well, before there was Stromberg, and before there was Drax, there was Mrs. Winifred Gilliflower, who planned to reign God's judgement upon the world, preserving only the most attractive northerners available. 6 00:01:13.319 --> 00:01:18.659 Let's see if she can be foiled before the rest of us all succumb to the Crimson Horror. 7 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:37.200 So, gentlemen, Dame Diana Rig. 8 00:01:37.260 --> 00:01:48.599 Well, I'd like to open this meeting of the Dame Diana Rig Appreciation Society, because I'm sitting here in Sydney with friends who all are George Diana Rig as much as I do. 9 00:01:48.659 --> 00:01:55.379 Ever since her ultimate performance of Medea, that's all she's ever played. 10 00:01:55.439 --> 00:02:00.540 Whether it be, you tell me whether it be Andrew Davey's mother love. because apparently they couldn't do it. 11 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:02.159 I've never seen it. 12 00:02:02.219 --> 00:02:04.019 I don't think the BBC ever recorded. 13 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:04.739 I have. 14 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:06.359 On the podcast... 15 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.460 Oh, no, there was a there was a TV version. 16 00:02:08.580 --> 00:02:15.180 And friend of the podcast, Fiona Tomney, showed it to me 1000000s of years ago when I was visiting her home. 17 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:16.439 It was good butt, wasn't it? 18 00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:16.919 Yeah. 19 00:02:16.979 --> 00:02:17.639 Oh, yeah, yeah. 20 00:02:17.699 --> 00:02:19.020 Everyone sees. 21 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.000 But that's, she's just replaying that part again. 22 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:22.800 And I think, you know, Rachel's up for it. 23 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.300 They haven't worked together very often, have they, Stephen? 24 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:32.639 I think this was the 1st time that they actually worked together, and I'm not sure that they worked again after this, did they? 25 00:02:32.699 --> 00:02:34.319 Brendan shaking his head. 26 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:34.979 No, no. 27 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:36.240 No, you're absolutely right. 28 00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:40.620 And it was all because Mark Gatis was doing a play with Rachel Sterling. 29 00:02:40.620 --> 00:02:46.139 And so I was out to dinner one night with her and with his personal friend, Dame Diana Reed. 30 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:54.539 See, I was just imagining Gator like fangirling every time he saw Rachel Sterling and going, is your mum dropping you off today? 31 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:55.979 Is she gonna pick you up? 32 00:02:57.180 --> 00:03:00.840 No, it turns out he knew Diana before he met Rachel. 33 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:06.180 But he was out to dinner with them and just said, well, one, you 2 have never worked together before. 34 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:09.599 And with Mark Gator, so probably went, oh, maybe that's true. 35 00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:10.740 No, no, no, I've checked. 36 00:03:11.099 --> 00:03:14.639 I've called up Andrew Pixley and he's confirmed. 37 00:03:14.699 --> 00:03:17.819 But then he said, would you like to do a Doctor Who together? 38 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:20.039 And Rachel's like, yes, I would like to do a Doctor Who. 39 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:22.199 And Diana's like, you know, I've never seen it. 40 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:24.180 Oh, wow. 41 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:36.659 And so the stage manager of the play that Mark and Rachel were doing cut together a bunch of villain speeches to show to Diana Rigg to convince her to be a villain in Doctor Who, and it worked. 42 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:38.400 She's incredible. 43 00:03:38.460 --> 00:03:43.620 And it is that thing where in the Avengers, which is where we kind of all got to know and love her. 44 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:48.539 She's just the most beautiful and sexy woman ever to appear on television. 45 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:50.699 Lachrymose saucer comes to mind. 46 00:03:50.699 --> 00:03:52.560 Oh, just amazingly good. 47 00:03:52.740 --> 00:03:54.960 She's amazingly bored. 48 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:58.500 It's terrific. 49 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:00.180 She can be threatened, she can be in peril. 50 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:01.379 She just doesn't care. 51 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:03.599 She's completely bored and she... 52 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:06.360 We did an episode on Bond Finger. 53 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:07.620 Well, with someone... 54 00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:12.120 She's about to be soared in half by a circular source. 55 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:13.979 And she's virtually checking her watch. 56 00:04:14.099 --> 00:04:17.579 Couldn't be more bored. so great. 57 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:21.839 But then ever since then, she's just grown old disgracefully. 58 00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:24.420 Absolutely All her own teeth. 59 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:26.339 All her ideas. 60 00:04:26.339 --> 00:04:29.339 And has played fantastic villains. 61 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:30.660 Like, she's not precious. 62 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.019 She was so beautiful, but she was never precious about that. 63 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:36.120 She had a lot of fun being that way, though. 64 00:04:36.180 --> 00:04:37.920 She had a very good early 70s. 65 00:04:37.980 --> 00:04:41.339 Oh, I bet she did. switched we may or may not touch on. 66 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:42.779 No, we don't have an e-tag on this one. 67 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:43.620 A lot of fun. 68 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:52.920 My pick of the week, although we're not up to there yet, the and Super 8s, she did with her German friend straight after on her Madges and they're called the mini killers. 69 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:53.519 Have you seen them? 70 00:04:53.579 --> 00:04:55.079 I have the diadem thief. 71 00:04:55.139 --> 00:04:56.759 They're extraordinary. 72 00:04:56.759 --> 00:04:58.740 And they're almost unwatchable. 73 00:04:58.740 --> 00:05:02.579 And she does all her Avengers stuff in Sherman with Germans around her. 74 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:03.899 They're kind of silent super eights. 75 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:08.579 I'm thinking, he must have been really hot because these are awful, but and he was. 76 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:16.019 And she did these 2 little films in a bikini and all the rest of it and it's great and it makes no sense and they're awful and yeah, they're on YouTube. 77 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:17.100 Yep. 78 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:23.579 And you can also find them if you have the more recent Avengers optimum or Blu-ray sets. 79 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:23.939 They are. 80 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:24.899 Oh, they like the ones I have. 81 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.240 Yeah, they are on, I think, the season 5 collection. 82 00:05:27.300 --> 00:05:29.220 Lovely. in which case I have them. 83 00:05:29.339 --> 00:05:29.519 Okay. 84 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.319 There's 5 of them. 85 00:05:31.379 --> 00:05:33.779 Like they did, for God's sake, mini films. 86 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:35.699 They're very Danger Diabolique. 87 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.040 I was going to say Danger 5. 88 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.639 Danger the ever liquid Danger fights budget, yeah. 89 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:45.959 They're like a sweaty fanboy actually getting Diana Rigg to do stuff. 90 00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:52.199 And the fan reception from 9075 was on his, it's actually Diana Ree. 91 00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:54.000 Yeah. 92 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:58.019 Well, while we're talking about sweaty band boys getting Diana Rigg to do stuff. 93 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:01.980 How do we think this episode goes? 94 00:06:01.980 --> 00:06:04.259 Really wondering where this is going? 95 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:07.860 In my top breed, Stephen. 96 00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:17.160 Look, I'm not a huge fan of seasons 78 or B, but I think this one sort of rises to the top largely because it's so inconsequentially and sillily fun. 97 00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:19.379 And that's what really saves it, I think. 98 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:20.759 There's so much wrong with it. 99 00:06:20.819 --> 00:06:23.160 We'll talk about a few of the things that I don't think really work. 100 00:06:23.220 --> 00:06:27.899 But when you sort of stand back, there's so much to admire simply because it just puts a smile on my face. 101 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:31.740 It's my favourite Matt Smith episode. 102 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.240 And I think in large part, it's because of Diana Ring. 103 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:41.579 Because I've said before on the podcast that Mark Gatis's writing doesn't always resonate with me. 104 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.540 I don't think he ever does a bad job almost. 105 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:53.160 Actually, I would even say sleep no more doesn't do a bad job until the last 5 minutes, but this one just sings. 106 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:57.420 And I think it's the perfect scissorgy of it's written for Diana and Rachel. 107 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:00.240 He got them involved before he started writing. 108 00:07:00.300 --> 00:07:02.879 It's exactly in his wheelhouse. 109 00:07:02.939 --> 00:07:04.379 He loves his Victoriana. 110 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:11.459 He consulted with Matthew Sweet, who is the interviewer on the Doctor Who DVD range. 111 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.939 But yes, that's who Mr. Sweet is named after because it just dropped. 112 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:17.459 Nathan's eyes just turned into dinner plates. 113 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:30.300 But yeah, like, because Matthew Sweet, the TV presenter, had written the nonfiction book, inventing the Victorians, where he breaks down myths about Victoriana and says, actually, this is what really happened. 114 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:37.019 And so Mark sort of consulted with him because he wanted to deliberately use some of those myths. 115 00:07:37.019 --> 00:07:41.519 And that's why, for instance, the man who employs Madame Vastra is constantly fainting. 116 00:07:41.819 --> 00:07:46.980 Whereas the only woman who faints does so as a ruse. 117 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:47.699 Right. 118 00:07:47.699 --> 00:07:52.620 You know, so it was breaking down that stereotype of Victorian woman getting the vapours and what have you. 119 00:07:52.680 --> 00:08:01.379 And that's why it's such a woman heavy and woman driven story because Mark is like, how many Victorian cliches can I include and invert? 120 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:02.160 Yeah. 121 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:02.819 Yeah. 122 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:08.759 Yeah, for me, I think it is easily the best of 7B, but that's not a massive achievement. 123 00:08:08.819 --> 00:08:11.819 But it's very, very nearly the best of the season. 124 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:19.319 I still think that a town called Mercy probably is my favourite, but this would have to be second. 125 00:08:19.379 --> 00:08:23.339 And I think it's incredibly enjoyable. 126 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:32.879 I think it's the best Mark Gatis episode or it probably competes with the Unquiet Dead for title of best Mark Gatis episode because this is absolutely what he's here for. 127 00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:34.620 It's not just Victorian things. 128 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:36.659 It's northern things as well. 129 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.440 And of course, he comes to us from Royston Vesey. 130 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:45.899 And so he does lots and lots of hilarious northern things. 131 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:53.220 There's that great line where even Commander Strax is kind of slightly terrified by the prospect of going to the north. 132 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:13.019 And I think, in addition to that, it's also a story that loves Doctor Who and really recycles a lot of the imagery in a lot of the troops. 133 00:09:13.019 --> 00:09:18.480 And a lot of the ideas that I think we've seen in previous Doctor Who stories, particularly classic. 134 00:09:18.539 --> 00:09:27.299 So when we have Jenny open up the, you know, the magic curtain to see what's actually making the big noise in the factory, it's straight out of the time meddler. 135 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:28.679 Yeah, yeah. 136 00:09:28.740 --> 00:09:30.360 Of course it is. 137 00:09:30.419 --> 00:09:31.980 Wow, how did I not realise that? 138 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:35.639 But it's also filled with all sorts of other Doctor Who sort of illusions. 139 00:09:35.700 --> 00:09:39.899 The octagram, the image in the eye comes straight out of the arc in space. 140 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:45.000 It feels very horror of fang rock as well in terms of its characters and the setting, obviously the Victoriana aspect. 141 00:09:45.059 --> 00:09:52.440 And Mr. Sweet, I think, is sort of very Brain and Morbius as well, in a sense, in that sort of body horror aspect that Doctor Who does so well. 142 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:59.759 So I think it really is a story that sort of is kind of like, what does Mark Gators love and puts it all together on a page? 143 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:05.580 I got a ghostlight vibe from where Ada is feeding her monster. 144 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:09.840 Like she opens the thing and shoves the food under there. 145 00:10:09.899 --> 00:10:10.679 Yeah, of course. 146 00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:13.200 But there is heaps of that, isn't there? 147 00:10:13.259 --> 00:10:23.460 And that's kind of Gatus's job on the show, I think, is he's the person who loves the history of the show and its imagery and knows what has worked before. 148 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:26.700 Maybe even more than the 1st 2 showrunners. 149 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:38.100 Yeah, and I think possibly not being a showrunner gives him a bit more freedom and perspective because he's not the person who has final say. 150 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:42.299 He can decide I'm going to put this in and they can take it out if they want to. 151 00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:45.600 Something like the Thomas Thomas joke. 152 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:51.360 Which I think is so gloriously terrible that it becomes good again. 153 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:55.559 Because it's totally played as we know this is awful. 154 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.500 We know this is too far. 155 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:04.019 And it wouldn't surprise me if Mark Gatus is like, I need to exorcise this out of my brain and someone will take it out. 156 00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:11.100 That went to a screen and he's like, no, that was me on Saturday morning at 8 AM. 157 00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:13.980 You shouldn't have included that. 158 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.440 I really like. 159 00:11:16.500 --> 00:11:18.360 And I love the kid. 160 00:11:18.419 --> 00:11:24.539 I love him and Strakes just to hang out together for the rest of the episode. 3 times James, and it's a spinoff. 161 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.960 But they do have lovely comic timing. 162 00:11:28.019 --> 00:11:29.039 Stark is just gorgeous. 163 00:11:29.100 --> 00:11:30.779 He's really good, isn't he? 164 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:34.019 I'm really glad you touched on the tropes. 165 00:11:34.259 --> 00:11:40.139 Because I did want to say a little bit on that, that it's not just Mr. Gatis. 166 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:41.820 There's film references all through this. 167 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:43.679 Saul Metstein, the director. 168 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:46.139 He did some of our faves, Steven, didn't he? 169 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:47.580 So what else did he do? 170 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:49.320 Dinosaurs on a spaceship, which you will love. 171 00:11:49.379 --> 00:11:50.700 Town called Mercy? 172 00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:51.120 Absolutely. 173 00:11:51.179 --> 00:11:52.139 Mr. Nathan Love. 174 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:56.700 Snowman, which I really love. and maybe my favourite, Matt, just because it's so much fun. 175 00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:03.840 And they were sort of filming this at the same time as the snowmen to take advantage of the availability of neat Macintosh and Dan and Catherine. 176 00:12:03.899 --> 00:12:05.220 Oh, that makes a lot of sense. 177 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:07.320 It's such a great ensemble cast. 178 00:12:07.379 --> 00:12:08.639 But Saul Metz 9. 179 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:21.419 His dad's a quite a well-known British Scott architect, modernist, brutalist, modernist architect, and this lad studied architecture, and there's lots of little jokes and references in there, which I might torture you with as we keep going on. 180 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:30.720 But my favourite film references because this fella also did a piece or he did his final on James Stewart, Jimmy Stewart, and he's a mad Hitchcock fan. 181 00:12:30.779 --> 00:12:33.960 And again, the stairs, you go, haven't I seen that in the red light? 182 00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:35.039 Oh, it's vertigo. 183 00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:39.720 It's Jimmy Stewart looking down the spiral staircase, a vertigo, and that's the rocket silo. 184 00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:46.200 There's lots of little touches, but my favourite is a nod to Ridley Scott, you know, who would have designed the Dalek. 185 00:12:46.259 --> 00:13:00.659 So that 1st scene coming up the cobbled pavers with his peaky blinders cap and his ferret and his rope around his trousers is exactly the opening of the 1975 Hovis Bread Ad, which made Ridley Scott's career. 186 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.179 And it, because before that, he was a big, exactly. 187 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.399 It was a BBC designer or the rest of it. 188 00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:08.460 And he'd done ads, but that ad, the Hoverspread ad. 189 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.320 And I still remember it because it was on in Australia. 190 00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:14.460 It was just the first, it was gloomy and miserable and northern in other words. 191 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:15.779 Yeah, that's it. 192 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:17.100 Oh, that's so funny. 193 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:21.899 And there's little pepperings of that all the way through, which I'll torture you with as we keep going. 194 00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:22.980 Please do. 195 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:27.240 The other thing I think this very consciously references is the Avengers. 196 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:28.679 Oh, okay. 197 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:32.220 So, for instance, you have Jenny high kicking in a leather cat suit. 198 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:34.500 I was really hoping someone would drink that. 199 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:43.559 But not only that, that whole interplay where the doctor's like, oh, it's attack of the supermodels and he steps forward to do it and she goes, no, this is me. 200 00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:57.179 That is cribbed from the eagle's nest, which is the 1st episode of the new Avengers. where Steed steps forward with a gun to take out some Nazis also with guns and Joanna Lumley steps forward in a leotard and says, no, I'm going to kick them in the face. 201 00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:59.759 But something else. 202 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.279 That's what you're meant to do with narcissism. 203 00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:02.940 So if... 204 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:03.720 And supermodels. 205 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.559 So if Jenny is Emma Peel. 206 00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:23.460 When Jenny is infiltrating the factory for the 1st time, we cut back to Madame Vastra's client who, you know, sees tracks and faints and Vastra, and Strax, then have this sort of back and forth, Vastra is steed. 207 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:28.080 Like, she's the one who's off the coffin, nurse tracks, I think we should, you know, relax a bit. 208 00:14:28.139 --> 00:14:29.700 And I'm thinking, so who is Strax? 209 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:36.720 And it's like, Strax is Tara King. he just wants to go in and punch everything. 210 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.879 And if you watch Tara King. 211 00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:42.419 Tara King's a brawler, like the follow-up because she's got the shoulder. 212 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.440 She's got the shoulder. 213 00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:46.080 And same height as Dan's Donkey. 214 00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:46.740 Really? 215 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:47.759 Yeah, yeah, tiny. 216 00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:48.360 Yeah, yeah. 217 00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:48.840 Yeah. 218 00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:51.899 That's why, you know, when Diana Riggs said child, it's fine. 219 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.600 But when Thorson is said child, she's suddenly a foot taller. 220 00:14:54.659 --> 00:15:00.480 If you watch Emma Peel in the Avengers, she's very graceful in her fighting style. 221 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:07.799 It's partially based on ballet and Purdy in the New Avengers is a ballet dancer and Kathy Gale was doing kung fu. 222 00:15:07.860 --> 00:15:13.740 Tara carried a brick in her handbag and threw pianos Penelope Keith. 223 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.440 She was just using whatever was in the environment. 224 00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:19.799 And that strikes because, you know, you have Jenny doing all the high kicks and what have you. 225 00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:23.100 And then Strax runs in with a gun screaming because he's on a sugar high. 226 00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:30.539 That's so that's embedded by Mark Gaitis rather than... 227 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:31.080 Do you know what? 228 00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:39.539 I think as you were talking there about how much January is Emma Peel, I just came to mind, that episode of the Avengers called Death at Bargain Prices. 229 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:39.960 Yes. 230 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:51.539 And there's a moment where Mrs. Peel, basically, in a leather cat suit, faces down against a, you know, would be attacker, and the look on a, you know, on her face is, are we going to, I thought we're going to fight. 231 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:53.759 Either way I'm going to really enjoy this. 232 00:15:54.360 --> 00:16:02.879 And she proceeds to beat the living crap out of... making your fingers and proceeds to be living crap out of the man. 233 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:07.919 And that's exactly also the look that I saw on Jenny's face in the episode as well. 234 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:13.259 It's just, I don't know whether it's intentional, but of course it just casts my mind back to the Avengers in so many ways. 235 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:15.240 Engages is a fan. 236 00:16:15.299 --> 00:16:17.159 Oh, yeah. very self-admitted one. 237 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:17.639 So, yeah. 238 00:16:17.700 --> 00:16:24.240 It's actually incredible how well they all carry the episode before the regulars turn up. 239 00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:27.480 The doctor's not in it for the 1st 3rd of it. 240 00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:30.840 And you actually find yourself not missing here. 241 00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:36.000 I, you know, we got a glimpse of him in the guy's eye just before we go into the opening credits. 242 00:16:36.059 --> 00:16:39.059 But otherwise we don't have him for quite a long time. 243 00:16:39.120 --> 00:17:02.340 But we've got these regulars, and it's a little bit like the Christmas invasion, and it really highlights the difference between Russell and Moffatt as showrunners, where Russell's extended cast, you know, Jackie and Harriet Jones and Francine and Sylvia and all of those people, Wilf, and Moffatt's is a Santaran. 244 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.660 And like a Silurian from the Victorian era. 245 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.539 And they are in heaps of episodes together. 246 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:19.140 And I did read someone speculating that they kind of are a hangover from the beryl idea for Jenna Coleman's companion. 247 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.940 Can we brush on that? 248 00:17:21.059 --> 00:17:22.440 Because this is a new for me. 249 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:23.880 Yeah, so this for anyone else? 250 00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:38.400 So there was some idea that Moffat was originally considering having a companion from Victorian England, played by Jenna Coleman, and she had a name, Beryl, and that survives as Clara in the snowman. 251 00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:46.740 But we have the doctor regularly going back to the Victorian era to meet these people and he's specifically done that, hasn't he? 252 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:58.319 The doctor has come back here to see Jenny Vastra and Strakes to see how they'll react to the new Clara after they experience the death of the previous Clara in the snowman. 253 00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:07.079 And it's more of his sort of creepy, you know, trying to work out what this perfectly normal person has going on. 254 00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:12.839 Yeah, and originally, we were going to go from journey to the centre of the TARDIS into Nightmare in Silver. 255 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:20.700 And the scene that shot at the end of this episode, most of that was shot with Journey to the centre of the TARDIS. 256 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:25.019 The only pickup was her saying, I'm the boss because it references the previous scene. 257 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:32.160 And so Nightmare and Silver was meant to be the 1st story where the doctor really accepts Clara. 258 00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:35.819 And then we have the doctor acting weird in that story and Clara accepts in. 259 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.519 So and so we do lose that a bit here. 260 00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:59.880 But instead, what we have is whenever Jenny and Vastra asks Ku Clara is, the doctor's not really interested anymore, he's just happy that she's there, which is really great because, um, I did, the funny thing is, my friend Matt was on journey to the centre of the Tartars, and I said to him, I can't do it with you because it's in my bottom 5 of all time. 261 00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.519 I find it absolutely terrible. 262 00:19:02.700 --> 00:19:08.640 And the confrontation between that and Jenna and that is so good, but so hard to watch. 263 00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:16.319 I'm kind of really glad they did that in the middle of the season and then we can have a couple of episodes where they're getting along, even though Nightmare and Silver is also terrible. 264 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:23.940 But just to have them have fun here with each other and enjoy each other's company. 265 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:39.299 And something that's so clever about this with the doctor being absent from like the 1st 3rd is we then get the backstory in a flashback, which is essentially episode one of a classic series story, boiled down to 2 minutes. 266 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.339 And it's so clever. 267 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:50.819 And I think touching on what you were saying earlier, Stephen, it's something only a huge fan of the classic series would be able to do and still make feel natural. 268 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:55.140 Like the doctor's like, it's a long story, I'll tell you the short version. 269 00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:58.019 I'll give you the tele snap recon. 270 00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:08.819 That's the great thing about it because some of it is like that found footage from Fury of the Deep, you know, where someone's got a film camera and they're training it on the set. 271 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:13.380 And some of it is just photographs, like between scenes, we have photographs. 272 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:17.339 And all of the film grain and the film skipping and stuff. 273 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:24.660 You notice that whenever the crimson horror, like that liquid appears, it's not treated in that way. 274 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:30.299 So the rest of the film will be really grainy, but it really brings up that crimson venom. 275 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:37.200 I think it's really well done and it's surprisingly experimental for a riser as TRAD as Gaitus, I think. 276 00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:39.299 Yeah, that's a really good point. 277 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:47.880 I mean, it is essentially an act one reduxed at the end of act one. which is, as you say, it's an episode one of Old Classic Hooper, and an absolutely right. 278 00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:48.960 I never thought about that before. 279 00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:55.920 But it's also the point where the RAD finishes and the TRAD starts again. if we move into act three, I think. 280 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:14.940 And I think that kind of strange, perhaps, narrative structure is also reflected in the strange tonal shifts and sort of clashes that sort of occur in this story as well. 281 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:22.740 I mentioned before, but Rachel Sterling and Jane Diana Rigg are wonderful in this, but they are in totally separate productions. 282 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:24.779 They're characters that don't belong in the same story. 283 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:31.980 There's so much pathos and, you know, incredible just heartbreaking sadness around Rachel Sterling's character as Ada. 284 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:35.700 And of course, Dame Diana Rigg is having the time of her life chewing the scenery. 285 00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:41.579 And you just sort of wonder, how are these 2 characters not just in the same story, but related to one another? 286 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:57.539 I think that sort of tonal shift, just sort of results, perhaps, maybe unintentionally from the fact that we're just trying to get all these different elements together into a story that kind of feels a bit like classic who and kind of feels like the Avengers, it kind of feels like a number of the other influences that we've spoken about today. 287 00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:03.720 I think, though, she definitely joins Diana Rigg in her production at the end. 288 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:15.539 So when she overhears Mrs. Gilliflower kind of saying what she intends to do to Ada, she absolutely just goes crazy supervillain mode as well. 289 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:16.259 That's where we go. 290 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:17.099 Yeah. 291 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:18.539 I love that so much. 292 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:20.460 I was watching it. 293 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:21.779 I hadn't seen it for a while. 294 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:32.220 And when Mrs. Gilliflowers dying and she says, forgive me, and I knew that Ada said no, but I just loved the response. 295 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:38.160 That's my girl. that's so brilliant I love you, perfidious. 296 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.720 Yeah, he's going full Bob Holmes on the insults. 297 00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:44.339 Virago, you know. 298 00:22:44.400 --> 00:23:03.299 Um, and the scene before that when the doctor finds Ada distraught that he's escaped, and there's just this moment where the doctor hesitates, but realises, you know, okay, yeah, there's a missile about who explode and kill mankind, but this person saved me and I must comfort them. 299 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.960 And it's so beautiful. 300 00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:21.660 And we've spoken before this series about how sometimes, you know, Matt is getting material that's written for Matt because he's good at falling over and stumbling around and going, ah, at otherwise unexciting moments. 301 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:26.940 But this is a moment that shows why he has had such an amazing career since. 302 00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:37.380 Just that quiet tenderness and the realisation of why Ada is really blind. 303 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:48.839 And, you know, someone else I want to praise in that is Jenna Coleman, because I think Amy would have been standing there very impatiently going, who, well, who are you paying? 304 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:50.160 who is this woman you're paying attention to? 305 00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:57.420 Whereas Clara is written much, more like, okay, no, this, there's something happening here that I don't know about and I'm just going to stand back. 306 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:05.759 And then, you know, she does speak up and shocks Ada and she's like, no, no, I'm a friend. with him, you know, I want to help you as well, et cetera. 307 00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:23.099 And again, it's a tonal shift because this whole thing has been sort of painted in poster print colours, you know, and the characters are painted, and then we have this moment of real human connection and human emotion before the big confrontations at the end. 308 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:30.779 And I think it would have been much poorer without that because it brings it down to the suffering that this character has gone through. 309 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.980 And so at the end, when she's saying, no, I'm going to go out and make a life for myself. 310 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.740 It really hits so hard. 311 00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:53.940 And Matt plays the doctor's face at the end there with such pride that Ada is looking forward and is finding a new way to be and to create something rather than going down the same path as her mother. 312 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:59.640 I do like the dissonance of the performances that are just highlights, the difference in character. 313 00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:04.079 And I know you're saying the different productions, but I think they're both Victorian melodrama. 314 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:06.420 They both come from the same tropes. 315 00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:20.460 And we might be lifting a partial lace veil into the, shall we say, the home life of Miss Sterling and Miss Rick because I don't know. 316 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.559 I just don't think where there's art, there's life. 317 00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:29.400 I think I've told this story before on Bondfinger, but I don't think I've told it here. 318 00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:37.799 So, um, yeah, it was shortly before this went out because it was before I left the UK, but I think Diana and Rachel had been announced as being in Doctor Who. 319 00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:43.319 There was a big Avengers convention which Diana Rick didn't go to, but then she gave her a private talk at the VNA. 320 00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:51.779 And at that, she was talking, you know, Rachel and I have recently worked together, and of course we were all Doctor Who fans were like, hey, she's like, oh, the Doctor Who fans are here. 321 00:25:52.200 --> 00:26:03.779 But then the interviewer said, but also, you know, Rachel is playing a part, you made famous because you did Theatre of Blood with Vincent Price, and now there's a stage play, and Rachel is playing your part. 322 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:05.759 How do you feel about that? 323 00:26:05.819 --> 00:26:11.400 And she said, oh, well, you know, I'm very happy with whatever Rachel plays, and it's very flattering that they're making that. 324 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.799 Oh, but what do you think of the show? 325 00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:15.299 Oh, the show's a piece of shit. 326 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:20.519 But Rachel's doing a marvellous job in a piece of shit as I knew she would. 327 00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:24.420 I can't tell you if she agrees with me because it's still going on, but... 328 00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:30.599 So it seems to me from that that they have a healthier reverence for one another. 329 00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:48.240 Yeah, this is the thing with Gatus. 330 00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:49.380 I want to know what you all think. 331 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.079 He gets this show better than anybody. 332 00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:56.099 He's been a fan as long as and also of all other things he can write. 333 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.880 There's a reason these people are his friends, not just Sterling, but Rig. 334 00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:02.700 It's pretty tough to break into that cabal. 335 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:08.400 And the reason is, as we were just saying, rig and all those other folk only esteem equals. 336 00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:10.380 She is the head girl at Ravenlaw. 337 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.440 She's not a Slytherin, but... 338 00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:14.339 But this is the point. 339 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.480 All his stories, some for some reason to me, never quite hit the mark. 340 00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:22.319 They deflate just before the target, and I don't know why that is. 341 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:27.059 I actually think this one is pretty successful. 342 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.099 It is the most successful. 343 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:30.180 I think it is the most successful. 344 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:37.980 I think Unquiet Dead is the story that's kind of been cooking in his brain for sort of 15 years and has a lot going for it. 345 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:53.160 It's about competing worldviews and, you know, the sense where the unquiet dead is all of us, you know, where all dead but still walking around and we've got all of that sort of stuff and we talked about that at the time. 346 00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:56.640 I don't think this is about anything in a very deep way. 347 00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:05.819 I think it is a really enjoyable romp that deploys the kind of penny dreadful tropes that we're used to. 348 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:11.880 And maybe the only thing that it does is take a bit of a kick at religion. 349 00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:19.980 But otherwise, I think it's got no more ambition than just being a really enjoyable 45 minutes of TV. 350 00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:22.380 And that's a pretty good ambition, I think. 351 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.640 And so I think this is pretty great. 352 00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:31.259 Even if I can't see any kind of particular hidden depths to it. 353 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:53.099 Well, I think you're onto something there, Richard, because the 3rd act for me is where it falls apart, and it's largely an issuing of the plot in favour of a reconciliation of the 2 characters that also, I said previously, don't exist in the same narrative, and we're having to sort of bring them together, and that's the focus of the story, as it probably should be when you got Rachel Sterling and Diane rigged together on screen. 354 00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:57.539 But the plot is something that we've seen before, I think, with gators. 355 00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:03.420 It's the don't launch the thing, whether it's Cold War, or we'll see again in Robot or Sherwood. 356 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:07.079 There's a variation of that at the end of Idiot's Lantern. 357 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:11.099 It's kind of just there as a bit of a framework upon which to hang other things. 358 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:19.079 And in this instance, it's really that it's the crowning jewels in this whole thing, which is those 2 wonderful actors coming together. 359 00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:24.420 And in the story, these 2 very different characters having to in some way inhabit the same narrative. 360 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:34.380 Now that's entirely speculative on my part, but that's kind of why I feel it doesn't really work for me in terms of the way that it sort of hangs together and it is almost less than the sum of its parts. 361 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.200 In the course of this discussion. 362 00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:49.619 From all your points, I've had a bit of an epiphany as to why Mark Gatas's writing is something I find, you know, technically very good and very entertaining, but doesn't always strike me emotionally. 363 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:53.099 And I think it's because we're going to make Simon's head explode. 364 00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:56.279 I think it's because he does use a lot of tropes. 365 00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:02.279 But he oftentimes falls short of interrogating them. 366 00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:08.700 And so he gets to a point where he goes, and there's this trope, okay? 367 00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.380 What about it? 368 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:14.339 And something I was thinking last night when I was doing the washing up was the kiss. 369 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.819 Yeah, the doctor plants on Jenny. 370 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.039 And this episode has come into criticism for that. 371 00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:33.420 Mark, I think, attempts to redress it in his novelisation, which is told from Jenny's perspective, and her response to that is basically, I was very happy to see the doctor up and about, but I tried to keep myself a respectable lady and I like to be asked, so I punched him. 372 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:36.000 Yeah, but that's in the actual episode. 373 00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:37.559 That's in the actual episode as well. 374 00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:46.980 But I think this is an example of a trope that Gait is using because ever since the telly movie, it's been a trope that the doctor and companion kiss unexpectedly. 375 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:55.319 So with Philip Siegel, it was a Hollywood kiss and in the script, Grace immediately responds with, do it again. 376 00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:58.980 With Russell T. Davies. 377 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:06.359 When the doctor kisses the companion, it's a plot device where, you know, sucking the time vortex out of rose, or this is a hint that something's wrong. 378 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:07.920 There's a... 379 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.779 So many excuses afterwards, right? 380 00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:13.740 And you're in front of the manager and the photocopy is now turned off. 381 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:15.480 Oh, well, I was sucking out of autism. 382 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.559 You know, needs must. 383 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.480 In the in the Moffat era. 384 00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:27.180 The kisses tend to be an attempt at comedy. 385 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:29.940 It's like, ooh, isn't Amy naughty? 386 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.980 Ooh, the doctors kissed Rory? 387 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:32.940 Isn't that surprising? 388 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.460 But with Clara. 389 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.619 And this is something you've touched on before, Richard. 390 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:39.720 Because this is the 50th anniversary. 391 00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:44.700 They're very much trying for a doctor and granddaughter, protective relationship. 392 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:49.859 So they're trying not to hint at a romance between the doctor and Clara at this point. certainly not from his point of view. 393 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:56.220 And so we get lines like a skirt that's wrapped a bit too tight and the doctor looks around himself like, what the hell did I do? 394 00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:57.240 Where the hell did that come from? 395 00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:02.400 And any flirtation is coming from Clara, and the doctor's immensely uncomfortable with it. 396 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:07.740 So it's kind of like they've gone Mark Gaitis and Stephen Moffatt. 397 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:11.700 Okay, the doctor has to kiss someone this half of the season. 398 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:14.099 Who is it going to be? 399 00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:18.359 And of course, we have the kiss with River at the end, but it's like, no, we need our comedy kiss. 400 00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:27.000 And it's one of those things where it has become a trope of the series to the point that they're not questioning why they're doing it. 401 00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:31.920 And I think even at the time, I thought, oh, that's a bit awkward, you know. 402 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:36.180 And I kind of went, okay, no, I'm glad she slaps him immediately afterwards. 403 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:50.519 But it's way back with resurrection, the dialects, Nathan, when we're talking about how great the scene with Davidson confronting Deveros is in the discussion of morality, and you just said, or maybe just don't give the doctor a gun and you don't have to address this problem. 404 00:32:50.579 --> 00:32:52.619 It's like... 405 00:32:52.619 --> 00:33:09.180 And yeah, it's a criticism head of talons of Wang Chiang, which is, I think, in some ways, Robert Holmes was trying to criticise the racism of the era, but just use the racist tropes of the era without going that extra mile. 406 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:17.460 And I think maybe that's sometimes where Gatus falls down, but in Gatus's case, I think he's trying to be super ambitious because in this he's got tropes of Doctor Who. 407 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:18.720 Tropes of Victoriana. 408 00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:24.119 He's got tropes of the Avengers and he's got tropes of really, you know, bond films and whatnot. 409 00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:34.859 And I kind of love, he's even using his own tropes because when Mrs. Gilliflower is screaming about how experimenting on Ada was necessary. 410 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.920 I just heard Mr. Connolly and the idiot's lantern. 411 00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:38.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 412 00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:41.279 Both stories have a monster upstairs. 413 00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:42.180 Yeah. 414 00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:46.200 And just like David's upstairs in Tubbs and Edwards shop. 415 00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:49.500 And that's a kind of weird Victorian trope. 416 00:33:49.559 --> 00:34:03.779 There's a moment where we see posters all over the place for Mrs. Gilliflower's big, you know, sermon, just like we saw posters for Lisa and Chang, of course, and talents of Wang Chiang. 417 00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:10.019 But there's one where it's next to a poster, which you only see very briefly, which says come and see the freaks on it. 418 00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:17.400 And that's the role that kind of Ada is playing and it's also the role that Mrs. Gilliflower is playing. 419 00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:35.219 And the League of Gentlemen is all about super grotesque people. sometimes in a way that's now uncomfortable in hindsight, but the grotesquery of Victoriana and the Penny Dreadful are really, really sort of key to the sort of thing that Gatus wants to write about, I think. 420 00:34:36.059 --> 00:34:47.820 And I think also making Ada's, and I'm using air quotes here, freakishness be the fact that she is blind. 421 00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:52.260 Whereas that is something today, and of course, blind people still face discrimination today. 422 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.179 But far less than they did at the time. 423 00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:01.019 I think it's a very effective thing for a modern audience to then go, 0 my god, like back then they would parade these people. 424 00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:14.280 Like Ada is literally behind a curtain during the 1st sermon and is revealed to gas from the audience and Jenny is our audience identification character and she looks around disgusted at these people because she's just like, there's nothing wrong with her. 425 00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:15.179 She just can't see. 426 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:16.980 The education. 427 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:20.460 And I like that this is very to Northern, isn't it? 428 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:28.019 I know he's having a brogue 18 hole boot kick at a lot of his own childhood and his writings. 429 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:35.940 And education was Bible based, even in the 60s in primary schools, that was still quoted. 430 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:42.179 So your incapacities represented a moral turpitude of some type or another. 431 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:43.079 Yeah. 432 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:48.179 All that, you know, you were born with sin, as is said in this episode, yeah. 433 00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:53.820 So Gilliflowers type of Christianity is a very Protestant type. 434 00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.920 It's not Church of England or Catholic at all. 435 00:35:55.980 --> 00:36:05.340 And the 2 things that I think of are Bournville, which was the Cadbury plan. 436 00:36:05.340 --> 00:36:17.460 Quakers, very, very much like Sweetville as a kind of, you know, it's a dry, I think even now you can't buy alcohol around there, it's very, very Protestant. 437 00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:19.679 You can stone unmarried mother. 438 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:20.400 Yes. 439 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.099 Well, on even dose of the week. 440 00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:25.079 Got to do something in the evenings. 441 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:46.860 But also, in vile bodies, and this is obviously much later, in Evelyn Warsvile bodies, there's a character called Mrs. Melrose Ape, and she's an American, and she holds these old-time revival meetings, and she has a choir of young women in angel costumes, who are every bit as good as they should be, I think. 442 00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:58.019 And that's kind of what it reminds me of, this sort of fire and brimstone sermonising is incredibly Protestant, it's not particularly English. 443 00:36:58.019 --> 00:37:11.940 And placing that in the context, making that the location where the world is going to be destroyed from, I think, is a kind of vague critique of religion. 444 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.280 And Gatis hasn't always done that. 445 00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:22.739 He's reasonably sympathetic to Gwyneth's religion and presents it to the audience as something that they might not have been aware of. 446 00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:26.820 But here I do think he's giving it a fairly thorough kicking. 447 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.820 I think that comes back to a very early idea. 448 00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:34.980 He had for the unquiet dead, which was about a dodgy spiritual medium. 449 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:39.119 So I think, you know, much like Russell in gridlock. 450 00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:42.480 It's it's not religion or religiosity. 451 00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:46.320 It's manipulative evangelism. in a way. 452 00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:54.719 And, you know, it's something that has been done in Doctor Who before in that it's not the belief that's the problem, is what people do in the name of it. 453 00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:12.539 Just as he was speaking there, Brendan, I think one of the things that really sort of is underlined is that Gatus has got form for this. 454 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:18.780 He consistently doesn't necessarily interrogate a lot of the tropes that he brings up. 455 00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:20.579 And, you know, going back to unquiet day. 456 00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:31.380 And just the way that he couldn't have at all conceived that this was, you know, something that could have been read in an anti-refugee kind of way is kind of baffling. 457 00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:48.480 And I think that maybe is just maybe a natural blind spot for him as a writer and that those things are sort of inherent in the way that he writes and will always be there in his episodes and maybe going back to your point, Richard, maybe that's also something that counts against that sense that something isn't quite pulling off here. 458 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:53.460 There's a problem inherent in Doctor Who, though, isn't there, where aliens are evil? 459 00:38:53.519 --> 00:39:01.320 And so that's going to be a trope that when he's writing for Doctor Who that he can barely afford to examine, I think. 460 00:39:01.380 --> 00:39:03.119 That's possible, true. 461 00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:04.739 Yeah, especially in the Unquiet Dead. 462 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.679 But, you know, here we have, you know, a setting in Victorian England. 463 00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:10.800 There's no real mention of, you know, the Victorian workhouses. 464 00:39:10.860 --> 00:39:13.739 It's sort of presented, as you say, in a sort of Bournville kind of manner. 465 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:18.360 That whole trope isn't really necessarily interrogated, I don't think. 466 00:39:18.420 --> 00:39:20.639 And again, it's that story. 467 00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:23.039 Maybe it's just the stories is not designed to do that. 468 00:39:23.099 --> 00:39:27.539 It's really just designed to, you know, lead up to a don't launch the thing that actually launches. 469 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:37.320 And then that reconciliation or a, not a reconciliation, but really a sort of a confrontation between the 2 characters that the whole story's been sort of building up to. 470 00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:40.860 I mean, I think I think that's okay. 471 00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:44.579 I don't think that every Doctor Who story has to be ambitious. 472 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.659 And I think had Doctor Who come back and been like this all the time. 473 00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.420 I think I would have been disappointed. 474 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:58.619 The fact that it came back and started to do things that it had never done before, that makes it worth bringing it back. 475 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:03.539 Here, I think doing something nostalgic is okay. 476 00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:09.480 And I think he does it well for a 45 minute episode as well. 477 00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.579 Like it's really well paced. 478 00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:13.019 It doesn't drag. 479 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:14.159 It moves along. 480 00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:22.139 It has funny bits in it and action bits and, you know, Dan Starkey with a big gun and I kind of think I'm fine with that. 481 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.440 You know, next week something worse will happen, obviously. 482 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:29.099 But it's going to be different next week. 483 00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:42.300 Something I want to praise Mark Gators for here that he does different to usual is quite often when he writes a villain, he will present them in some way sympathetically. 484 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:55.199 And I think even someone like Mr. Connolly, who's a horrible human being, when he's giving his justification, sort of in the performance and in the script, he's sort of listening to himself speaking, kind of starts to go, oh, wait, no. 485 00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:56.760 Is that is that what I really sound like? 486 00:40:56.820 --> 00:41:04.800 And, you know, he's given a repudiation and as uncomfortable as the end of the idiot's lantern is when Rose is like, no, he's, you know, go after him. 487 00:41:04.860 --> 00:41:08.159 At the same time it's like, well, that's still a real person. 488 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:12.719 And, you know, um, the gel for real people. 489 00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:21.179 They're given motivation and they're given agency, night terrors, the horrible old landlord, after he's been through his ordeal, cuddles his dog. 490 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:22.079 You know what I mean? 491 00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:27.360 Here, Mark Gators is like, no, I'm writing a villain who knows that she's evil. 492 00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.539 Like, do you know what these are, doctor? 493 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:31.860 The wrong hand. 494 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.320 I can't believe we haven't spoken about that yet. 495 00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:41.639 And yet Mark Gators gives himself license to go, no, this person is actually thoroughly evil. 496 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:47.760 Like it's not Professor Zarov, whose family died in a car accident, so he wants to destroy the world. 497 00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:51.480 It's like, no, no, this person wants the world to herself. 498 00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:55.260 She's willing to sacrifice her own daughter to do it. 499 00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:56.699 She has no sentimentality. 500 00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.380 She has no redeeming features. 501 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:01.440 And I'm going to get a national treasure to play her. 502 00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:04.320 It's so good. 503 00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:06.900 Diana Rig must have had so much fun. 504 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:16.619 And I think it would have been a mistake to give her any interiority or any complexity beyond I'm just an evil villain and she does it so well. 505 00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:20.159 She's just so tremendously loathsome and magnificent. 506 00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:22.199 She has been playing this part for 30. 507 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:25.139 Yeah, yeah, by the time. 508 00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:27.000 No, no, what else have you seen her do? 509 00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:27.719 That's it. 510 00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:30.000 Yeah, so magnificent. 511 00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:32.039 Did she do any Sondheim? 512 00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:33.119 she did, didn't she? 513 00:42:33.179 --> 00:42:37.920 Little night music or follies on stage in the UK. 514 00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:39.300 I think she has done sometime. 515 00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.420 So anyway, we, you know, so just got the range. 516 00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:50.880 But she does, you know, look at her careers, we do. quite a bit. 517 00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:53.039 This... 518 00:42:53.159 --> 00:43:03.480 I'm wondering who's going to pick up the, the petticoat trails of this because she's, she really was the go to for grandmas, you don't want to spend a lot of time. 519 00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:07.739 I hadn't seen her Game of Thrones too. 520 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:09.000 No, what she like in that? 521 00:43:09.059 --> 00:43:10.800 She is magnetic. 522 00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.780 She is magnificent. 523 00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:19.860 Because also, I think around the time she did Doctor Who, I think she had a Neil hip replacement. 524 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:25.860 So she's moving quite well in Doctor Who, but in Game of Thrones, she's getting around with a stick and I think that was, you know, a function of the actor. 525 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:37.860 But it just means that the scene can start with Diana 5 paces away from a table and then she's going to sit down and everything else is going to literally revolve around her. it's absolutely the right decision. 526 00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:46.199 And the great thing is she gets in game 3 and she gets villain confrontation scenes, she gets sympathy scenes with the heroes. 527 00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:54.719 Sophie Turner's character, Sansa, goes through a whole heap of bad stuff throughout the whole of the series. 528 00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:57.840 And Diana Rigg is her advisor in some of the earliest. 529 00:43:57.900 --> 00:44:00.900 I was saying, look, there are going to be ways you're going to have to deal with this. 530 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:02.760 And they're really great together. 531 00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:08.940 So you have Diana, who at this point was in her 70s and Sophie Turner, who I think is around 20 during the Game of Thrones. 532 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.880 So you have this performance across the generations. 533 00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:28.860 And I think that's something about Diana Rigg, in that whatever I see her in, whether she's acting with an actor of her own generation or a younger generation, there's never an air of I'm better at this than you, is she reacts and responds to talent. 534 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:35.280 And the scenes where she's talking to Matt, you know, she and Jenna don't have much really to do together. 535 00:44:35.340 --> 00:44:40.380 But the moments with Matt are so brilliant and they're bouncing off each other so well. 536 00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:45.179 And her final film performance last night in Soho, Matt's in that too. 537 00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:46.199 Oh, wow, okay. 538 00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:51.900 I haven't seen it, but yeah, so her final film performance also features Matt Smith. 539 00:44:51.960 --> 00:45:00.599 But, you know, Matt's doing his usual thing where he confronts Villain where I'm going to have a big smile on my face, but my eyes are telling you you're in big trouble. 540 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.420 And she's like, I literally don't care. 541 00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:09.719 You know, I'm not one of these kids you can make feel bad that you've done for the last 2.5 years. 542 00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:11.880 No, I am totally evil. 543 00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:13.739 I've got my plan. 544 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:15.059 I've got Moroccet. 545 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:30.119 I've got my little friend who I, who I feed my salt and um, oh, by the way, this is the, this is the hilarious cigarette, the organ turns around to reveal basically another orc. 546 00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:33.659 It looks like a the Babbage difference engine. 547 00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:35.400 Yes, with all of those wheels. 548 00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:43.559 And it's just a fantastic moment when, you know, the doctor's going to Sonica and Clara just picks up a chair and smashes it to pieces. 549 00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:45.900 I've got a chair. 550 00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:47.159 So good. 551 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:57.179 It's not something that has a massive amount of substance because they're clearly just having so much fun making it. 552 00:45:57.179 --> 00:46:01.019 And I think it's definitely okay to do something like that every so often. 553 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:09.059 It, like, Terra the Vervois is my favourite Colin Baker, and I'm not going to pretend that has a hell of a lot of substance, but it has brilliant actors giving great performances. 554 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.199 It's got florrid dialogue that makes fun of itself. 555 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:17.820 It's got great chemistry between Colin and Bonnie. 556 00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:20.400 And here, even though they don't have as many scenes together. 557 00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:22.619 You've got great chemistry between Matt and Jenna. 558 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:32.400 Like when she's revived and falls out of the thing and she's a bit faint and he gives her a kiss on the forehead and she kind of sees Vastra, but she doesn't freak out, but she just sort of looks at the doctor like, just explain when you're ready. 559 00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:34.800 No, he just says she's a lizard. 560 00:46:34.860 --> 00:46:36.480 Yeah, but that's the thing. 561 00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:38.280 She's been travelling for a while now. 562 00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:46.559 She knows not to say something that might, you know, make the situation worse. contrast a few years later to Bill, like, 0 my god, he's blue. 563 00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:47.760 Racist. 564 00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:53.639 What do you think of Vastra's veil that no one can sing through and accept the audience? 565 00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:59.760 Yeah, I think it's a, you know, it's a bit like the Daleks in the classic series. 566 00:46:59.820 --> 00:47:01.139 When the mesh is lit properly. 567 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.420 You can't see Michael Somerton inside. 568 00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:09.239 So we have to assume that the lighting is a bit worse for the subject object. 569 00:47:09.300 --> 00:47:11.940 I mean, I think it is deliberate, isn't it? 570 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.099 It's just like Clark Kenton his glasses. 571 00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:17.219 Or Diana Prince and her glasses. 572 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.159 Steve Trevor and his heterosexuality. 573 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:23.880 Title. 574 00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:39.780 I'm also just wondering whether the veil isn't some sort of illusion, and I might be wrong here to the woman in wine, which is that 1st er Detective Victorian text that we get, that obviously Vastra seems to be a descendant of as well, maybe? 575 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:41.159 Yeah, could be that. 576 00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:42.900 I mean she's Sherlock Holmes, isn't she? 577 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:43.860 Absolutely, she is, yeah. 578 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:44.280 Yeah. 579 00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:46.320 No, I mean, like quite literally within the show. 580 00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:50.940 She gets told that Dr. Doyle is writing about her. 581 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:52.079 Yeah, yeah. 582 00:47:52.079 --> 00:48:01.019 Well, also one of the untold stories of Sherlock Holmes that Watson refers to at some point is a story about the red leech. 583 00:48:01.139 --> 00:48:02.940 Ah, thank you. 584 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:04.500 That's what I was trying to think of, yes. 585 00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:05.340 Yeah, yeah. 586 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.460 And so when the doctor's like, oh, you know, the mystery of the red leech. 587 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:10.320 No, I prefer the crimson horror. 588 00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:14.400 That's so good. 589 00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:19.800 I am absolutely on board with all of the puppet monsters, In Doctor Who. 590 00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:21.179 More puppets, please. 591 00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:26.280 I love that this one comes out of one of those gumball machines. 1970s. 592 00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:27.840 She put in 5 cents little capsule. 593 00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:31.320 It's that thing with the big claws and he was latex. you remember? 594 00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:32.639 It was a finger puppet, wasn't he? 595 00:48:32.699 --> 00:48:34.320 You could put him on your finger and go, wobble. 596 00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:36.300 I wasn't going to go there, but since you've decided to. 597 00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:37.739 Yes. 598 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.500 I think I think their relationship was most intimate. 599 00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.440 Oh God, she loves it, doesn't she? 600 00:48:43.500 --> 00:48:52.860 Really, just to get to see Diana Rick hoisting round, you know, Emo on meth. the entire thing. 601 00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:54.480 Why didn't she do more of these? 602 00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:57.239 You know, I didn't live long enough. 603 00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:57.780 I know. 604 00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:02.099 You know, she lived for almost another 8 years after this, you know. 605 00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:07.920 I think for someone of Diana Rigg's calibre, the appeal is doing something new. 606 00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:09.179 Yeah. 607 00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:12.300 And yeah, she's never had, yes. 608 00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:14.639 There's that boredom threshold again. 609 00:49:14.699 --> 00:49:15.539 Yeah, yeah. 610 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:16.019 Yeah. 611 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:16.500 Yeah. 612 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:17.039 Well, yeah. 613 00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:27.300 Part of the reason she left the Avengers, while she wanted to do new things because she got the pay rise she wanted in the 2nd series, but quite sensibly said, you know, I will have done 50 of these. 614 00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:31.139 It's time to do something new, and of course, career then skyrocketed. 615 00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:43.739 And I think, you know, being a florid out and out villain with no redeeming features whatsoever and a red puppet clamps to your chest definitely qualifies as new. 616 00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:46.380 I love the puppet. 617 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:48.000 I just think the puppet is fantastic. 618 00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:59.579 And it is this superb moment where Ada just kind of goes forward and just beats the living crap out of it, like squashes it to death while they're thinking about taking it back to the Jurassic. 619 00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:10.320 Yeah, and I love that that whole sort of 3 or 4 minute section really is gatus undermining the Doctor Who ending trope. 620 00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:13.320 It's like taking the gravis to another party. 621 00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:14.340 Yeah, yeah. 622 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:23.699 But, you know, it's 1st of all, the doctor's like, though them is gillyflower, you will come with us, but then Strax accidentally shoots out the bannister and she falls 4 floors. 623 00:50:23.699 --> 00:50:28.800 And I am the doctor is playing and it just recedes the background as Matt goes, ooh, ow. 624 00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:34.320 And then it's like, okay, well, we'll rescue the... 625 00:50:34.380 --> 00:50:35.940 Oh, wait, no, Rachel's gone. 626 00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:40.559 And the end of the scene is the doctor just going, ooh. 627 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.920 Well, there, sir, that's all we have time for this week. 628 00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:12.239 We'll be back next week for an episode extracted from us through blackmail, Neil Gaiman's Nightmare in Silver. 629 00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:30.840 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. 630 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:33.360 Stephen, where can people find you? 631 00:51:33.420 --> 00:51:44.039 You can find me on Twitter at Steed Stylin, all one word and without the G. You can find me also add new to who podcast and we're at www.newdoo.com. 632 00:51:44.099 --> 00:51:45.719 Until next time. 633 00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:54.300 Remember that when it's just too much trouble to whisk your enemy off to the planet Kolkakron, several heavy blows from a walking stick can be just as effective. 634 00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:56.460 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 635 00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:58.559 I hope my teeth don't let me down. 636 00:51:58.679 --> 00:51:59.039 Good night. 637 00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:00.840 E, back warm. 638 00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:01.260 Good night. 639 00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:02.039 You see? 640 00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:09.179 That was Flight through Entirety. 641 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:12.000 Sorry, Nathan Bottomley, Stephen B, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. 642 00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:14.280 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 643 00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:20.940 This episode, Strax, as Tara King was recorded on the 25th of September 2022 and released on the 9th of October. 644 00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:36.719 Fans of the William Hartman era, which is all of you really should stick around to the end of these credits to hear a convention anecdote from Brendan, which is heartwarming, instructive, and also somewhat alarming. 645 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:52.860 I will also say, and this can possibly be cut, as it's an end joke of an end joke, but, you know, when Diana revealed Mr. Sweet, I just thought of the name Barbara Joss for some reason. 646 00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:53.639 Oh, no. 647 00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:55.260 Tag. 648 00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:59.639 But I do hope she's still out there because she's fabulous. 649 00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:01.019 Stephen knows that story, doesn't he? 650 00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:02.699 Oh my god. 651 00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:03.539 Okay, come on. 652 00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.260 Okay, so... many... 653 00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:07.860 2005. 654 00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:08.820 It was 2005. 655 00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:13.199 And we were having a big who venture and it was in Sydney. 656 00:53:13.260 --> 00:53:15.059 And it was just after the new series came back. 657 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:16.679 So it's like, get as many guests as possible. 658 00:53:16.739 --> 00:53:18.780 So we had. 659 00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:19.679 Oh, yeah. 660 00:53:19.739 --> 00:53:31.800 So we had India Fisher, Fraser Hines, Debbie Watling, Rob Schimman, Kate Orman, Katie Manning, and on one day, Barbara Joss, we discovered this actress, Barbara Joss, lived in Sydney. 661 00:53:31.860 --> 00:53:33.599 And you did the interview. 662 00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:34.619 I did the interview. 663 00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:36.000 This is where we're going. 664 00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:42.599 And so Barbados had played one of the Optera in the web planet. 665 00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:46.320 And she's the one, Nemone, who sticks ahead in the acid. 666 00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:47.219 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 667 00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:57.719 And also later in the chase doubles for Vicky on location running up the sand dunes because Maureen O'Brien couldn't get was rehearsing. 668 00:53:57.780 --> 00:53:59.579 It's a tenuous league, but okay. 669 00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:16.980 Well, um, when we asked her to appear, we found her because she had um, a website as she had survived breast cancer and vasectomy and had written a book about it and, you know, rediscovering her womanhood after this, after this operation. 670 00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:18.780 What was the book called, Brendan? 671 00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:20.940 Was it called my left breast? 672 00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:22.079 It was. 673 00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:22.619 Yeah. 674 00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:29.519 She did she did give me a copy, but then someone else she sold out of the copy she brought on the day and she was so impressed. 675 00:54:29.579 --> 00:54:31.739 She's like, I didn't think Doctor Who fans would want to read this. 676 00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:35.579 But anyway, and she did give me a copy, but then someone else wanted to buy one. 677 00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:38.699 I said, I'm not depriving you of your profit from your book. 678 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:39.780 You can send my and never did. 679 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:40.380 That's fine. 680 00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:42.300 So anyway, I'm doing the interview with that. 681 00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:46.139 And I said, look, obviously, before the interview, I said this. 682 00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:55.019 Obviously, you know, you were only in a little bit of Doctor Who, so I'm quite happy for the interview to just be a little bit Doctor Who and also about your book because fans actually love hearing about the personal lives of the actors. 683 00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:56.039 She's like, oh, okay. 684 00:54:56.099 --> 00:55:00.360 And so 1st of all, we showed the clip of Nemone sticking ahead. 685 00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:05.280 And I kind of said to her, so, you know, that would have been a week's rehearsal and then filming. 686 00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:07.199 What do you remember about the week? 687 00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:08.519 And she's like, oh, nothing, darling. 688 00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:12.659 And then she's like, no, no, no. 689 00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:17.099 I remember it all. and, you know, William Hartner was, William Hartner was lovely. 690 00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:18.539 And they all used to bring us lunch. 691 00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:25.440 You know, they used to bring in a chicken and salad and things and we started to bring in, and no, yeah, it was great. 692 00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:33.360 And then she got to talking about the book and she read an extract, which was the 1st time she went home with a man after having the removal, et cetera. 693 00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:35.219 And it was really quite moving. 694 00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:38.699 And then she said, so, you know, of course, I've had it removed. 695 00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:40.199 But as you can see, I've had it reconstructed. 696 00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:44.820 And she said, they take they take some fat from here, which is great, ladies. 697 00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:45.780 Yes, right. 698 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.460 They take some fat from here and put it up. 699 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:48.119 Would you like to see it? 700 00:55:48.179 --> 00:55:50.219 There's no nipple, so it doesn't count as nudity. 701 00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.980 And then she rips her shirt. 702 00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.179 Oh, kidding me? 703 00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:55.739 No, no, I'm not. 704 00:55:55.739 --> 00:55:56.940 Very young Brendan. 705 00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:57.539 Yep. 706 00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:00.480 So I would have been 22, I think. 707 00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:03.599 And to top it all off. 708 00:56:03.900 --> 00:56:07.980 Originally, the guest for this convention was Louise Jameson, whom my mother had always wanted to meet. 709 00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:09.900 So my mum was in the audience. 710 00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:11.579 Oh, my God. 711 00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:14.760 And afterwards, I sort of say to Barbara. 712 00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:17.699 Okay, so your signing is in about half an hour. 713 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:19.739 Would you like to go back to the green room, what would you like to do? 714 00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:22.860 And they were showing some clips from upcoming heart little DVDs? 715 00:56:22.860 --> 00:56:24.239 And she's like, well, actually, this was my era. 716 00:56:24.300 --> 00:56:25.380 So can I just sit in the back here? 717 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:26.699 Oh, of course you can. 718 00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:30.900 I'm just going to pop outside and I'll come back and get you. 719 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.239 And I sort of said to some one of the other conventional organisers. 720 00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:34.739 Barbara's over there so she needs anything. 721 00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:36.000 And I go outside. 722 00:56:36.059 --> 00:56:38.460 My mum comes and finds me and she says, do you need a drink? 723 00:56:41.460 --> 00:56:46.500 Yeah, so when Diana Rigg rips open, I think. 724 00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:47.699 It's like I remember this. 725 00:56:47.820 --> 00:56:55.739 So my memory of that is walking into the room and just hearing the words and that's when my pubes fell. 726 00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.059 Okay, it wasn't Brendan's. 727 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:02.639 Sadly not. 728 00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:06.960 I think... 729 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.780 That has to be the tax. 730 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:16.500 I reckon I found an ow, you know, because we do there are enough sort of climactic hits where I can move something. 731 00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:17.400 I think we're okay. 732 00:57:17.460 --> 00:57:18.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 733 00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:18.900 What do you think? 734 00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:21.960 I don't know if I've got anything else to say. 735 00:57:22.019 --> 00:57:24.059 We pretty much mentioned everything, I think. 736 00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:28.260 Maybe maybe drop this back in to the Barbara thing. 737 00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:37.739 And during our signing, the great thing was there were so many young women coming up to her and saying, look, thank you for talking about that because it is something that isn't talked about enough. 738 00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:40.019 And she was really touched by that. 739 00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:41.099 Yeah.