WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:27:03

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Hello, dear, listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast whose name is a promise we've made, which is why it looks like, will be doing this for the rest of our lives.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, we've got catchphrases, nursery rhymes, low effort fairytale monsters, non-chronological storytelling, a mystery solved by reevaluating the semantics of a sentence, a phone call that goes wrong, people springing back to life, and a startlingly upsetting new rule about time travel.

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And everyone seems to be unhealthily obsessed with the personal details of our titular character.

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So, who is the doctor?

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Let's find out as we discuss the name of the doctor.

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I have to say that I don't hate this episode, but I do think...

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Well I don't know.

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Well, we're a Doctor Who podcast.

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Yeah, we hate territory.

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It is Moffat vamping though for 45 minutes, isn't it?

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Yes, it is basically a mission to the unknown to the 50th anniversary Dalek Master Plan.

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Basically, but I think it works for that.

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It is not a traditional end of season finale, and it's fair enough to criticise it for that.

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But I think it manages to lead us into the 50th anniversary without being needlessly cheesy or too self-indulgent and yeah, I really, really, really like it.

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I really like it too.

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I just like to say, but it is very different.

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It just sort of just happens.

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Like, I mean, it just starts and you'll suddenly, well, I'm swept away by all the 1st Dr. Clara stuff and her seeing all the different incarnations of the doctor.

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Listeners, do you like my voice today?

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It's going to be like this throughout the entire podcast.

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How many packets have you smoked yesterday?

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Like all those clips of the doctors.

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I was talking to Brendan earlier and I said, Colin is the only one.

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You don't actually have, they shut off.

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They mustn't been able to find one in all of his clips.

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There must be some reason why.

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Everybody else gets a moment with old footage of Clara.

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Do you know what I mean?

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I think the choice of clips is very strange, and there may be a technical reason for it.

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Like having pertwee from the 5 doctors or, you know, refusing to just completely memory hole arc of infinity.

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Like, those are very strange choices.

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And also that weird cliffhanger from Dragonfire as well.

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It is odd.

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And there must have been some sort of technical reasons for it.

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Yeah, it's basically just a hangover from Stephen Moffatt's original script idea where he essentially does write new scenes for all the doctors to be in.

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And so Colin was meant to be seen at the sparking control panel of a spaceship.

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Right.

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You know?

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And Silv was meant to be seen hanging from a girder over a battlefield like that Doctor Who magazine cover that one time.

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Right, right.

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And so that eventually gets translated to the clip from Dragonfire where he's doing the same thing.

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And yeah, I think it's entirely budgetary.

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Like as much as this is the lead into the 50th anniversary, it is also the tail end of the season.

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It's not the last episode produced, which I believe is the Crimson Horror, but it is towards the end of the season, and Matt and Jenna were being pulled to do reshoots for previous episodes and were going out to do pre-shoots for the following episodes.

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So everyone's being pulled pulled from Poletta Post.

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But I remember at the time watching this and when Hartnell appeared, listener, this is the actual noise I made.

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I'd like to apologise to any of the dogs.

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Then when the Arc of Infinity Clip came up, I just went, oh, really?

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That's what we're choosing?

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And in that discussion I was having with Todd earlier, thinking, oh, you know, why have they chosen 2 bits from the 5 doctors?

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And it's like, well, at the time, one of the big 5 doctors, big claims to fame was they had all the original film.

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And of course, you know, if you've got the original film, it's easier to drop new elements into it.

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But even then...

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And they can rescan at high res.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's like even then, um, and something that's totally blinking, you'll miss it is before the 2nd doctor runs past her in, I think it's Florida.

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I think it's stock footage of Florida, you get a figure in a green coat running past her and it's McGann.

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And it's like 3 frames of McGann.

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Again, in the original script, she's meant to be on these windswept cliffs and she looks over at another cliff and there is a green coated figure writhing in pain in the distance and starting to glow.

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Oh, okay.

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Yeah.

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I think it's a matter of Stephen Moffatt has this great ambition, and then the visual effects of the department, like, we've given you flying bikes.

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We've given you like this giant puppet in a forest a couple of weeks ago.

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We still, look, we still got to do Diana Riggs makeup.

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Can we just can we just save some money, please?

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We don't see Paul, do we?

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We just see his card.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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We see 3 frames of his coat.

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Anyway, we go back to the leaf.

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That's the pre-credit sequence, so it's sort of, we think it's all about the impossible girl.

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I mentioned to you earlier, Nathan, that I wanted this to be called, the Impossible Girl, but it does start off being about the Impossible Girl, but it takes a, you know, a right hand turn and ends up somewhere different.

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I guess this is being told in chronological order because her existence inside the doctor's timeline turns out to have pre-happened as a result of things that happen in this episode.

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And so we start with that.

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And we've got the, I don't know where I am thing from Bells of St.

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John, which tips us off that the great intelligence is going to be involved.

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And I guess we must have known that given that he does turn up in that episode.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, even even that, the flashback to the leaf and her falling through the vortex and what have you, in Moffatt's original script, she's in a cottage by the sea.

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There's a photo of the Maitlands.

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There's a photo of the doctor, but she's looking out of the windows and seeing all the previous doctors and she then gets the last line into the credits of whatever Madame Vastra tells you, do not go to Transalore.

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Q credits.

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Right.

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And, um, there's no documented reason why Moffatt moved away from that, but perhaps he kind of went, we're already getting a bit weird and he wanted to save it for the Zygon inversion.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Trends are law.

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It's a great space name, isn't it?

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I think it's a properly good space name, like Andrazani or Galafre.

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It's a really skilful space name.

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It has a Z in it, but it sounds like a word.

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It does sound like a word.

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And one of the things that I really, really like about trendzolore. is that it sort of mythicizes the doctor's death.

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Like, we know the doctor is going to die because everyone dies and he says that himself.

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And of course, because he's a time traveller.

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If we learn nothing else from Revelation of the Daleks, We know that the doctor has to be buried somewhere.

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And so Trezilore is like an ending.

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You know, the doctor's story now starts at Gallifrey and ends at Trezalore.

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And I think that's great.

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And it's a really moffety thing to take something that we sort of know or that we kind of must know about.

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But to make it explicit to make it happen.

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And so I think trends of law is a good name and I do think that setting this at trends of law is a great idea.

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There's also just, for me anyway, there is a symmetry because trendzolore and galafray. the same stresses on the same syllables and they're both kind of silly space names, but also they roll off the tongue.

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Yeah.

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You know, it's not...

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Ranscorav cola.

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I was trying to reach for something...

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See, I can't even inform those sounds.

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Yes, it's not something you have to force you out to do strange things.

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Because I was like, Zita Minor. like, no, that's actually quite a good space now. into minor is quite a good space name.

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Yeah.

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But no, yeah, yeah, it's no Ren Score, of course.

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Even at the time, I'm like, does this place have a relation to Gallifrey?

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And I believe there was a consideration to make, oh, wait, Trezalore is Galafrey, a revelation later when Matt Smith was possibly doing another season, but they dropped that.

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You know, so his defensive trends law would take on a whole new meaning when he discovered actually it's, I did rescue Gallivre, but no one on Gallivre remembers and they think it's called trends law.

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Is Transalore Retcon in time of the doctor?

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Does it end up not happening?

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I'd say so because he doesn't die.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I think that I think that Trendzilord doesn't end up happening.

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And it is that thing because like I have been very critical of giving the doctor backstory.

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And in fact, I listened to our timeless children, Jody into Tara episode yesterday, and I said that I was very angry at the introduction of new backstory for the doctor in the War Games episode 10.

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And I said that I thought it ruined the mystery of the character and really threatened the integrity of the program.

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Now, here we do have that backstory, but the backstory is kind of loose and inserting Clara into it doesn't really change anything very much.

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And I do like that scene where Clara's there saying, no, you know, go and take the other TARDIS.

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It's going to be much better.

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I think that's adorable.

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Yes.

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And the fact that we see that scene happen and we don't know what it means when she says you're going to make a terrible mistake and then we see it happen again later.

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You're taking the wrong TARDIS, not that you're leaving at all.

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Like, that's a scene that we knew always happened, was the doctor stealing the TARDIS.

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And so starting the episode with that, I think, is pretty damn great.

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But I don't think it spoils anything.

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And I think, like I was on a podcast reasonably recently called Pull to Open, and they have a standard thing that they do every episode, which is where is Clara in this episode?

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Like, where's Wally?

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Well, we were going to do that with who is chameleon in this episode rapidly lost.

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Who is Chameleon?

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So that, like, that is a fun thing.

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But it doesn't sort of spoil anything, I think.

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It just, you know, it's in this episode.

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You aren't watching Doctor Who thinking, I wonder where Clara is, really, which is the point of the joke, I think.

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Yes.

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There was a plan.

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Yeah.

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There was a plan when, and I'm jumping. jumping to the end here, but there was a plan when Clara was describing what she had seen, she said, I saw Amy Pond in the Pandoraca, and we were going to cut to Amy Pond in the Pandoraca, and her falling out, and Clara was going to be standing in the background, and she was going to see, I saw you killed at Lake Salencio, and we were going to see a clip of that because in both those instances, there's a crew member in the background.

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Really?

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And in Stephen Moffat script, it's like, can we make it look like Clara by cutting to a close-up?

156
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And I wonder if someone just said, Stephen.

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Just let it go, darling.

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Because, look, I've just mentioned those things and seen 3 very surprised pair of eyes from professional Doctor Who podcasters.

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We haven't noticed, even in 10 years, we haven't noticed.

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Let's go back to the beginning.

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The whole setup with this, with the whole conference call.

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Yeah.

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It just sort of just happens, you know?

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I mean, yes, we have the Whispermen thing, but the fact that Jenny forgets to lock the front door.

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They haven't they haven't necessarily haven't seen the Whispermen or anything like that.

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Like, that's a normal Doctor Who thing where there's some sort of threat and we need to, you know, we're in dire straits, lock the doors, let's get the conference call going.

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Instead, we're just doing it, and they're just suddenly then around.

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Yeah.

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It's a very Moffat thing is the phone call.

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And you might remember that there are episodes of press gang, which depend on phone calls as an idea or answer machine messages or all sorts of things.

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It's something that Moffatt is obsessed with.

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And so to have this thing where we're absorbed in this scene.

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We're kind of forgetting the setup that they're all unconscious in sort of different rooms in different time periods.

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And then suddenly the world that we've forgotten is happening outside, sort of intrudes on the phone call and has, you know, like has an effect on the phone call.

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And I think that is terrifically good.

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I love the scene with Strax where he goes to Glasgow on the weekends and just sort of beats the crap out of people.

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And I'm glad that Moffatt made that joke rather than anyone else.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it's a bit like RTD was allowed to make jokes about Cardiff.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Even that conference call scene with the outside world influencing the conference call was going to be set up in a joke.

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Halfway through one of his lines, Strax was going to suddenly clutch his head and shout, thank you, Archie, that will do.

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So like Archie is still beating him with his face in the real world.

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I just love the best line is, you know, not the one with the enormous head.

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The way he says the word hair.

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You know, he doesn't even really know what it is.

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Oh, I thought you said it's enormous head.

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I know, but later on when he's corrected and told that it's her hair.

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He just says the word hair.

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And I mean, my favourite part of that whole scene is I just didn't realise you were a woman and the look on Ripper's face is just, I don't have a body.

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I will find a body. will kill you.

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Yes, delightfully hurt expression as well, slightly hurt.

194
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And so this is the end, isn't it?

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This is chronologically the last time that we see river, and she will be back, obviously, for the Christmas special in, what, 2 years time or something.

196
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But that set before she goes to the library, isn't it?

197
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the, you know, the night before she goes off to the library.

198
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So this is after he's uploaded her at the end of silence in the library.

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So this is, and this is a farewell to her as a character, I think.

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And because she's so closely associated with Matt Smith's doctor, you know, Tennant gets one story with Capoldi gets one story with her.

201
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I think we needed this.

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This is his last regular episode. and so we need the chance to say goodbye to river I think.

203
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Yeah, and it's also nice that we do get a little bit of her after she's been uploaded to the internet so that we know that she's doing okay and she's still having a wonderful time and getting into mischief and so on rather than just walking off to that big house in the country, whatever it was. looking after those horrible children.

204
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Yes.

205
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As opposed to Clara.

206
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Yeah, never mind.

207
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Yeah, and that kiss, the kiss between Matt and River is a proper kiss.

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It's the only problem.

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I think so.

210
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:42.960
Remember we get the last kiss in the day of the moon where Matt drops her off home and she kisses him and he's surprised because that's never happened before and she's aware that that's their last kiss, but they get to have a proper proper kiss.

211
00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:50.279
And I also like the fact that, um, that Moffatt doesn't care about what her status is.

212
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:52.920
Like, she's just an actor in the room with Matt.

213
00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:56.400
It doesn't matter if she's an uploaded cyber ghost or who cares?

214
00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:59.279
They have to kiss because it's good buy.

215
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:01.680
Yeah, we have to kind of do that properly.

216
00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:03.900
And I thought that was really, really nice.

217
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.859
There was no kind of Matt spitting or looking surprised or anything like that.

218
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:09.960
I think he initiates it, doesn't he?

219
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:10.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

220
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.420
Yeah, it's really good.

221
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:13.859
It's properly good, I think.

222
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.279
And including last night when I rewatched this.

223
00:18:17.339 --> 00:18:22.140
I just sob my heart out when he says it would hurt.

224
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:23.039
Yeah, yeah.

225
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:33.299
Because, you know, we, with Matt's talk to, we're always like, oh, you know, he doesn't understand human emotion, and it's just in that moment, it's like, oh, no, no, he totally gets it.

226
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:34.079
Yeah.

227
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:41.640
Um, and even at the beginning of the episode when he's explaining to Clara what trends the law is.

228
00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:48.059
And, you know, he's been, he's been his usual self since the beginning with the blind man's buff and doesn't it?

229
00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:49.319
Yeah, the little dalek.

230
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.019
And there's like the 2nd Trezilora is mentioned.

231
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.640
He is suddenly a 1000 years old and crushed on the sofa.

232
00:18:56.700 --> 00:18:58.559
So affected at that moment, isn't he?

233
00:18:58.619 --> 00:18:59.819
It's really moving.

234
00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.720
Seeing him cry like that is amazing, I think.

235
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:10.619
And just Clara's reaction to it, but just seeing him cry properly without sort of grandstanding or anything like that.

236
00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:17.640
It's not a big, you know, tenant chewing the scenery kind of, you know, I'm too young to go or whatever.

237
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:18.359
Yes.

238
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.940
It's it's great.

239
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:25.799
It's really sort of underplayed, but it's properly affecting just seeing the doctor like that.

240
00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:45.240
And something I've noticed rewatching the season this time is by the time we get to this point, the doctor trusts Clara, and, you know, it was kind of everything was going fine until Hyde, and then you've got Journey to the centre of the Tartars, where he rounds on her, like, who are you?

241
00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:45.779
What are you?

242
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.319
But by this point, like every time she asks him a question.

243
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:51.539
He answers her, like, what's trendzilor?

244
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.640
Who's river song, et cetera.

245
00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:55.740
He like, he definitely trusts her.

246
00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:58.799
And then she follows him to the TARDIS and he tells her more.

247
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:03.539
And when he says to her, is there any point telling you not to come?

248
00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:12.299
In Moffatt's original script, she looks to the TARDIS doors, they slam and she turns around and says all girls together.

249
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:15.779
And it's like now the TARDIS trusts her as well.

250
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:21.779
And I'm kind of sad we got rid of that because we never really resolve the Tartars not liking her. this season.

251
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:30.119
That's true Yeah, it's it's funny because this story basically has no new supporting characters.

252
00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:38.279
Like you've got Andrew and Fabian in, sorry, I should say Andro Archaeoptrics and Fabian Drabatralunda in the TARDIS repair yard.

253
00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:41.700
You've got Clarence.

254
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:42.480
Clarence.

255
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:50.039
And um, Archie and the little boy who's not Thomas Thomas hadn't been cast yet, unfortunately.

256
00:20:50.160 --> 00:21:00.599
Um, I think I said way back with the Big Bang that Moffatt does introspective character finales, and this is probably the 2nd most introspective.

257
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:03.420
I don't think you can get much more introspective than heaven sent.

258
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:10.200
Yeah, this is this is incredibly introspective because it's about the character of the doctor.

259
00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:12.779
And I think I didn't like that at the time, but I like it a bit more now.

260
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.599
I mean, it is vamping, isn't it?

261
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:19.079
He's got all of his semi-regulars together.

262
00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:24.660
There's no new people and we're just doing things with them that they would ordinarily do.

263
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:44.099
And the sets are what, the house where we've seen Clara before all season, Madame Vastra's house, and then just these various dark spaces that are created in the studio that are kind of hard to imagine, these just strange spaces.

264
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:51.240
So, trends of law, you know, near the doctor's tomb, inside the doctor's timeline for the final scene.

265
00:21:51.299 --> 00:22:04.380
And so there's something sombre about it that fits the idea that this is an episode about the doctor kind of encountering his death as a kind of fact that happens.

266
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:13.140
Something else that I find foreboding, even though it's very subtle, is, I mean, it's one thing to say that, you know, the TARDIS doesn't want to go to Translore.

267
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:14.099
It can't go to trends law.

268
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.779
You know, it's not allowed to, isn't it?

269
00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:19.440
Cross his time stream and have the, you know, the console blowing up and all the rest of it.

270
00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:25.740
And, you know, they end up in all but around the planet, and then he literally turns off the gravity so that they can fall down to the planet.

271
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:31.740
And it's just that lovely moment where he exits and he puts his hand up to the cracked glass pane.

272
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:39.180
And the way he says, oops, in this very, I've really done a bad thing and I'm really going further.

273
00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:43.079
That actually says a whole lot more than than all the other kind of carrying on.

274
00:22:43.140 --> 00:22:43.440
I think.

275
00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:45.480
It's just really subtle and I really like it.

276
00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:48.839
And the giant TARDIS has that same window cracked.

277
00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:51.779
Yeah, so when we see the doctor's tomb.

278
00:22:51.839 --> 00:23:02.819
And again, that's such a genius idea, an absolute Moffat genius idea that when a TARDIS is dying, all of the bigger on the insideness leaks out into the real world.

279
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.559
And it's so logical. so clever.

280
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:05.460
It's so clever.

281
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:06.839
And it also has a sort of a logic to it.

282
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:08.279
And there's no technobabble there.

283
00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:10.559
It's just it's just elegantly simple.

284
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:12.779
And none of us ever thought of it.

285
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:14.099
No, exactly right.

286
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.619
It's an absolute classic Moffat thing.

287
00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:27.000
And it creates this sort of really weird visual where you've got a massive TARDIS where it's massive in 2 dimensions, but not in the 3rd dimension.

288
00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:29.700
It sort of seems to be thinner.

289
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:37.440
Like, it's, it's weird and foreboding and absolutely what you want the doctors tombed to look like, I think.

290
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:39.839
It's really, really good.

291
00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:46.859
It's a, slightly better, I think, probably than the previous attempt at the doctor's, the doctor's grave.

292
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.680
Less poly starring. revelation.

293
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:53.579
Yeah, where all that polystyrene falls on Colin.

294
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:55.019
I mean, it's a great shot.

295
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:56.759
I think it's a good story as well.

296
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:03.119
But that, yeah, it's doing it's doing kind of melancholy in 2 different ways.

297
00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:09.720
You've got the darkness of trends of law, but then you've got the quiet snowscape of whatever that planet's called.

298
00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:13.259
Necros.

299
00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:14.039
Necros.

300
00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:15.779
There we go, of course. should know that.

301
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:17.400
Why have I forgotten that?

302
00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:19.859
We could have done with Mr. Copper in a wig.

303
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:20.940
Yeah, yeah.

304
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.460
No, that would have just added something to it.

305
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:42.599
I really like how Transalores realised, too, that there's no attempt to be realistic about it, and there's a scene, I think, quite early on, where the 2 of them are walking, and it's clearly just back projection, isn't it?

306
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:53.819
They're just walking in front of a screen that's showing the clouds and sky in the background and just how sombre and bleak and kind of miserable everything is.

307
00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:06.299
And you get this massive universe spanning cataclysm where the doctors are raised and everyone that he saved is now no longer saved and all of the stars are going out.

308
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.500
And uh, you know, it's the sort of cataclysm the show has done before.

309
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:19.859
But it kind of works that that is only experienced by this small group of people who are standing around on trends or outside the doctor's tomb.

310
00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:21.000
I like it.

311
00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:22.619
You know what disappointed me?

312
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:24.119
A couple of things.

313
00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:29.519
One, we don't hear the doctor's name because River whispers it and we don't hear it.

314
00:25:29.579 --> 00:25:43.440
We get told that, oh, yes, the doctors told me all about you by Clara, like, you know, like, so he's just mentioned River offscreen, which is one of those tropes that I can't stand, but I'm sure he's having a go at all of us who are like that.

315
00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:44.880
No, I'm just being silly, Simon.

316
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:46.920
And what was the other thing?

317
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:48.960
Oh, yes, the grades. you know, we get rivers grape.

318
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:52.259
Well, where's dodoes and Catarinas and mattress, you know?

319
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:54.599
That's how all of the ones that are, you know?

320
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:09.240
But I love all the river stuff, all the intercutting with river, with Clara talking, but the doctor's dialogue at the same time and the lead up to the tomb in that is all just so delicious.

321
00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:20.099
And that's why the revelations that he was able to see her all along. is so great that they're having this conversation behind his back about him.

322
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:27.539
She's prompting Clara and all of that sort of thing, but it just turns out the doctor just knew all of that and wasn't letting on.

323
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.000
Doesn't he stop her from slapping him too?

324
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:31.380
Yes.

325
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:33.779
Yeah, that's when she realises he can hear her.

326
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.279
He can hear her.

327
00:26:35.339 --> 00:26:35.519
Yes.

328
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:39.839
It was a great moment because, you know, she slapped him before, so, you know..

329
00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:51.480
I also love that Vastra Jenny and Strax get a lot to do that's based on their individual characters.

330
00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:55.440
They're not just there to be people to share the dialogue around.

331
00:26:55.500 --> 00:26:56.700
You know what I mean?

332
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:01.559
Like Jenny is the cautious sceptic, even before they go into all this.

333
00:27:01.619 --> 00:27:09.299
Vastra is brash and brave and Strax gets to say things like when he's getting his heart squeezed through his chest.

334
00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:11.220
I think I've got him on the runzer.

335
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:12.960
So great.

336
00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:15.599
He's really like, why did you give in?

337
00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:18.720
Yeah, he's really terrific.

338
00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:27.779
And then the fantastic camera work when Jenny disappears, like she's behind Vestra and the camera is just moving very gently to focus on Vestra.

339
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:33.420
And it's literally a 2 seconds after Jenny is obscured that Vast returns around.

340
00:27:33.539 --> 00:27:37.559
And so there is some kind of special effects work going on there.

341
00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:39.900
I don't think it's just Catherine Stewart walking out of shot.

342
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:44.759
But if it's Catherine's, you're walking out of shot behind like a digital mat, you know.

343
00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:46.380
It's still so well done.

344
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:53.039
And Niamh McIntosh in that scene when Jenny disappears and she has to kill Strax is just astonishing.

345
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:56.880
Yeah, so she is very, very good in this, in this episode.

346
00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:03.539
I'm not a huge fan of those three, but I actually think this is possibly when they're at their best.

347
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:09.960
I'm surprised just watching how important they are to the sort of end of Matt Smith. era.

348
00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:12.059
And I do like them.

349
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:27.779
I think that Dan Starkey is hilarious and just all of those silly lines about, you know, pools of acid and various types of grenades and stuff and not being able to tell the sex of anything, like all of that, that's just kind of sitcom shtick.

350
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.839
But Moffatt is very good at that sort of thing.

351
00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:34.019
And I think it absolutely has a place in Doctor Who.

352
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:45.119
And one thing that I can praise Chris Chibnell for is that I didn't think that the Santarans were a going concern after Strax had made them so ridiculous.

353
00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:56.400
And he managed to bring them back in a good way and keep them funny without minimising their threat in any way. phrases you rarely hear.

354
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:00.480
I've always liked the 3 of them.

355
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.859
And I think it's a shame that they just have one more episode after this.

356
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:11.220
Like I would have liked a couple more because I really do think they work well with the doctor regardless of who it is.

357
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:20.460
Yeah, I think they're kind of like unit, aren't they, in robot, you know, like we just get them back once more so that we're all okay about the new doctor.

358
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.220
And so that Clara has someone to talk to about the new doctor.

359
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:30.180
I always thought it was a shame when the doctor regenerated and like no one kind of witnessed it, like peed into Colin.

360
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:39.720
Like no one's really there to kind of know anything about that apart from Perry because there's no larger context that the show has at the time.

361
00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:58.980
Whereas, you know, when Eggleston regenerates into tenant, it affects a range of people and we get to see a number of people who knew that doctor reacting to it. and I think that, you know, that's clearly what's happening when we get perjury for the 1st time when we get Tom Baker for the 1st time.

362
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:05.160
You know, it's it's more fun, I think, to have that regeneration happened with more witnesses.

363
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.619
And so I think they're perfect for that.

364
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:12.839
And look, they're clearly part of his toy box, you know, they're his go to things.

365
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:14.640
I've got an important episode.

366
00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:16.680
The doctor needs to have friends.

367
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:17.579
Who are they going to be?

368
00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:21.900
What do you think of the role of the great intelligence in all of this?

369
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.059
And it's arc in this season?

370
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:25.859
It suddenly is very quite powerful, isn't it?

371
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.180
Like it's gotten more powerful or am I just off on a tangent?

372
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.039
I don't know.

373
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:49.500
I think there seem to be an attempt to make the web, the web of fear is the internet, the worldwide web, and you have the great intelligence living in there, and he's seen on computer screens and stuff like that, and all of that seems to make good sense.

374
00:30:49.559 --> 00:31:11.099
Um, Elle Sandifer has a hilarious crack about how Richard E. Grant is absolutely phoning it in and that that's what the character needs, like a, uh, a, you know, like a good, well-known top tier actor completely phoning it in to play the great intelligence works really well.

375
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:17.519
And so he does that underbite thing, you know, the way that he sort of holds his mouth and stuff like that.

376
00:31:17.579 --> 00:31:18.660
I think he's really good.

377
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.140
But it turns out he's not really that important, is he?

378
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:23.880
And he's just there.

379
00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:30.240
He's very 2nd tier in so far as it's just like, yeah, no, I'm sick of being foiled by the doctor.

380
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:34.619
I'm just gonna sort of kill myself now and take the doctor with me.

381
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:39.599
And that's thwarted in like all of, you know, 2 minutes anyway.

382
00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:49.200
But, you know, but is he from like the future or is, like, because, like, is he with Bastra and Jenny and Strax in their conference call or is it just the Whispermen?

383
00:31:49.259 --> 00:31:50.519
He only turns up later, doesn't he?

384
00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:54.779
Yeah, he turns up on Transalore and I guess this is where he dies.

385
00:31:54.839 --> 00:32:06.599
And so it means that Pat Troughton has now thwarted him twice and then he obviously gets Miss Kislett or whatever and does something in the 21st century as well.

386
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:10.259
I mean, he is just that snow, isn't he?

387
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.299
Isn't he just the psychic snow?

388
00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:18.539
interacting with Dr. Simeon and creating a weird version of Dr. Simeon?

389
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:25.200
Well, effectively, it's Dr. Simeon's childhood angst creating the great intelligent that sort of feeds on it.

390
00:32:25.259 --> 00:32:25.980
I mean, who knows?

391
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:36.720
Maybe, you know, the great intelligence dropping into the doctor's timeline is why the abominable snowman and the web of fear happen at all. you know, rather than, it's like that, that's, that's, that's.

392
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:37.859
Yeah, rather than the other way around.

393
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:50.700
Although he does give the great intelligence the idea of attacking the underground, I think, inadvertently by giving him that lunchbox in the snowman, which has the map of the underground on it.

394
00:32:50.759 --> 00:33:05.460
I really like it because again, the great intelligence has no backstory in the classic era, and Moffatt gives it a backstory that is every bit as weird and mysterious as no backstory at all.

395
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:05.940
Yes.

396
00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:10.859
Like, he's not, uh, you know, he's not a disembodied alien from the planet Zolve or anything.

397
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:11.400
Yes, exactly.

398
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:12.420
It's, yeah.

399
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:13.500
I think it's handled.

400
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:14.460
Well, I really like the way it's done.

401
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:18.059
I don't think it detracts from the original by explaining too much.

402
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.940
It just, you know, provides a nice little origin story.

403
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:32.940
And as I sort of said, you could kind of argue that the great intelligence creates itself by dropping into the doctor's timeline and whether it's when it's chasing Clara or when Clara's chasing, you know, it does go back to Victoria, London.

404
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.680
It does go back to the 1960s whenever it is.

405
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:38.460
So it kind of, it never did actually get created.

406
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:40.859
It's just constantly going round and round, if you know what I mean.

407
00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:42.119
In time.

408
00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:47.819
Yeah, well, something this story establishes is time travel is possible in dreams.

409
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:48.480
Yeah.

410
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.160
And if you only have intelligence.

411
00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:55.440
If you are only mental energy, then time travel, I think, is possible for you as well.

412
00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:59.880
So, as you say, Simon, the great intelligence probably has no beginning and no ending.

413
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:01.440
It simply is.

414
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:09.659
Something watching this time, I kind of, I kind of went, you know, when he rips his face off and disappears and another whisper man steps up, I kind of went, well, what's that then?

415
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:17.760
But at the same time, it's like, well, in the 2 Trouton stories, he's basically making golems.

416
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:18.480
Yeah.

417
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:24.900
You know, so the whisper men are just, they're just golem. just 18 inhabit any one of them because he's intelligence.

418
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:25.679
Yeah exactly.

419
00:34:25.739 --> 00:34:27.960
As for Richard E. Grant phoning it in.

420
00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:31.440
I've heard that accusation with Scream at the Shalka as well.

421
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:37.019
But I think it's actually just Richard E. Grant's acting style in that facially.

422
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:38.219
He doesn't tend to do much.

423
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:40.260
It's all in the voice and the intensity.

424
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:41.039
Yeah.

425
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:49.199
And it's like, even if you look at something, I think the 1st thing I ever saw in was a drama called Jack and Sarah, where he was a recently bereaved single father.

426
00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:53.579
And even there, and you know, that was a very emotional film.

427
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:58.619
Facially, it's all under control except for the eyes and the voice.

428
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:00.239
Maybe you're right.

429
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.699
And I, that's how I see this performance.

430
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:08.820
You know, when he's saying things like, you know, the doctor will have many names, the storm, the valiard, again, dear listener.

431
00:35:11.579 --> 00:35:14.760
No, I agree with you, Brendan, that was a great moment.

432
00:35:14.820 --> 00:35:15.360
Yeah.

433
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:21.360
And but it's just like the intense, the intensity in his voice is kind of, I'm doing the universe a favour.

434
00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:22.559
Look at all these grades.

435
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:30.420
And a villain is always more interesting when it's not just, ha ha ha, you defeated me, so I'm going to jump into your timeline and kill you.

436
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.820
He's actually like no, I've got a point here.

437
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:36.059
Um, but I'm glad that the plot doesn't labour that.

438
00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:45.360
Yeah, because you've got him saying he killed all these people and you've got all the doctor's friends saying, well, actually, mate, he's done all this good, and I'm saying that, and I'm dead, says River.

439
00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:49.079
I mean, yeah, I don't buy the Richard E. Grant phoning it in thing.

440
00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:54.539
I think that his acting style and a lot of stuff is he throws lines away.

441
00:35:54.599 --> 00:36:06.960
The performance is always very, very small and subtle and and realistic's not quite the right word, but it's just the lines are said as if he's just thought of them rather than them being performed.

442
00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:12.719
Yeah, I think it works really well for the great intelligence because the great intelligence is a bit nothing, really.

443
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:18.059
I mean, it hasn't had lots of dialogue or anything before in the 60s, does it?

444
00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:19.440
Am I misremembering?

445
00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:20.699
No, it's just Web of Fear 6, really.

446
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:22.559
Yeah, yeah.

447
00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:24.059
Oh, and Samovar, yes.

448
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:24.900
Samovar.

449
00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:30.480
You know, why does he go after an old friend of the doctors?

450
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:33.960
Ah, abominable snowmen.

451
00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:34.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

452
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:35.940
No, it all works.

453
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:37.320
They'll be able to something there, somewhere?

454
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:37.860
Yeah, see?

455
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:38.760
Yeah.

456
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:48.420
And of course, you know, it's obviously, is this the point at which they know that they have web of fear back, but haven't announced it yet?

457
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.659
Well, that's what we discussed during the snowman.

458
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:55.260
And we kind of thought that, yes.

459
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.059
They know, I mean, they all know.

460
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:57.960
I mean, Moffatt knows.

461
00:36:58.019 --> 00:36:59.280
Yeah, yeah.

462
00:36:59.340 --> 00:36:59.760
Yeah.

463
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:00.179
Yeah.

464
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:09.539
And so you just bring the great intelligence back so that this is an old adventure with the great intelligence in it, which is sort of being released for the 1st time in forever.

465
00:37:09.659 --> 00:37:17.579
I will say that the usage of the great intelligence in this season brings to light a really weird thing.

466
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:28.920
A friend of the podcast, Andy Frankham, who is the head of the Lethbridge Stewart novels, is partially responsible for managing the characters and creations of the Hazman and Lincoln.

467
00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:29.280
Right.

468
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:50.039
And whenever the BBC used the Great Intelligence and the Brigadier, 70% of the time, 90% of the time, they don't credit Hazman Lincoln until Andy or I think it's um Hannah Hazman is the co-manager until they contact the BBC and say, guys, I don't know if they get paid or get paid very much, the estate.

469
00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:53.820
But it's just like, the end of this episode has Santarans created by Robert Holmes.

470
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:55.800
Silurian's created by Malcolm Hulk.

471
00:37:55.860 --> 00:38:01.079
And it's like, but you've got the great intelligence there, which is not a BBC creation.

472
00:38:01.139 --> 00:38:19.860
It's, it's just, it's very strange that the creations of these 2 writers, which, you know, people who look back at the Trout Nearer, you know, when there were kids watching it, it was going out and they're like, oh my god, you know, the yeti stories, that's where it was at. and that's where the brigadier came from.

473
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:33.599
So it's like there's 2 iconic parts of Doctor Who's history and the BBC's just like, oh, you know, we'll credit Terry Nation and we'll credit Kit Pedler and Jerry Davis said, we'll credit Brian Hales when the ice Warriors turn up, but they just forget that Hazman and Lincoln exists.

474
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:36.480
And it's kind of like the whole feud with the dominators was ages ago.

475
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:40.500
And almost everyone involved is dead, you know, get over it.

476
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:42.480
It's just an odd thing.

477
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:43.619
Yeah.

478
00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:01.500
We resolve the Great Intelligent Arc, and then Clara's just an ordinary girl.

479
00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:13.980
She said so all along, and she, of course, puts herself into the doctor's timeline to save him, and then we go in a different direction, you know, like her story is done.

480
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:17.639
The intelligence story is done, but the doctor story is far from done.

481
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:37.260
Yeah, and I think, you know, I think that that's a pretty good resolution of the mystery and I think it's the right time to do that and clear the decks for her to just be the doctor's companion because she plays an absolutely crucial role in Day of the Doctor.

482
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:38.519
She's terribly important.

483
00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:44.699
And just seeing them get back together at the beginning of day of the doctor is wonderful.

484
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:45.780
Like, it's so great.

485
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:57.900
And she has, I think, this season, and we've said this before, suffered enormously from the arc and from recording episodes out of order.

486
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:02.039
There's no real consistency to the way the character is written.

487
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:08.760
It's all kind of tied together because you've got Jenna's performance, but the character isn't really working at this point.

488
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:15.420
And so retooling the character, giving her some backstory, all of that sort of thing that's going to happen over the next few episodes.

489
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.260
I think ends up working really quite well.

490
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:20.940
I think you're really right.

491
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.940
The Cold War and the High, the characters are nothingness.

492
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.039
And then last week's Nightmare in Silver.

493
00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:27.539
It's like she's next year's character.

494
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.619
She's a completely different character virtually, I think, every other episode she's in this year.

495
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:34.260
I think she's good in Crimson Horror.

496
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.780
I think which is filmed quite late.

497
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.820
Yeah, yeah, it's filmed after this.

498
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.019
Terrible hair.

499
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:41.760
Terrible.

500
00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:42.599
I'm sorry.

501
00:40:42.659 --> 00:40:48.239
Just one thing of that story that really gets to me is the bun on top of her head. just hate it.

502
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:58.980
Oh, I tell you what, I was so relieved when she came back into the present day at the end of that episode and she had her own hair back, but I've only just realised why I felt like that.

503
00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:11.699
I have to say, I didn't know that, you know, I've never read up much about the production of the new era, and so I didn't know that this particular block was filmed so totally out of sequence.

504
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:30.300
And I wasn't spotsing it particularly, maybe because I just forgive not very much companion characterisation as, well, that's Doctor Who. that's, you know, that's, that's just what we get sometimes, but I, I, I wonder how much you're kind of seeing it because, you know, how, how out of order it's recorded.

505
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:38.039
Like the way, you know, I can see how in Fort Doomsday, doctor has no character at all because I know that that was shot first. you know what I mean?

506
00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:38.880
Yeah.

507
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.739
No, I agree with you, Simon.

508
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:46.019
I certainly went into this back home of the season knowing when things were shot and it kind of went, oh, great character, great character.

509
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:47.219
Oh nothingness, nothingness.

510
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:56.460
So I was sort of looking out for it, you know, in various episodes to see to what extent in my mind at least, you know, where that character was at.

511
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:57.659
Yeah.

512
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:06.059
But I mean, Simon's right in the sense that in the classic era, sometimes you would have a like one paragraph description of who the character is or whatever.

513
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:08.519
She's a computer programmer from Peace Potty.

514
00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:09.179
Yes, she knew.

515
00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:16.739
But basically it's just the actor's performance that ties it all together and everyone's just written as a companion.

516
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:25.380
And I think that the new series improves upon that by having actual characters in the Tartars who have their own personalities and things like that.

517
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:29.940
But this does seem like a kind of throwback, in a way.

518
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:30.659
Totally.

519
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:38.880
And I guess the one thing that at the time disappointed me was the fact that I actually wanted her to be something more than just, I'm just an ordinary girl.

520
00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:41.880
I actually thought it was building up to something big revelation.

521
00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:45.119
But that would have been just NAF, right?

522
00:42:45.179 --> 00:42:51.300
So coming back to it, I actually like it a lot more now and think, yeah, you made the right decisions.

523
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.360
That's why once again, dear list is, I'm not sure enough.

524
00:42:54.420 --> 00:43:10.619
Look, I'm 100% on the fact that it's the right decision that she is actually just an ordinary person, but what makes her extraordinary is that she makes the decision to go into the doctor's timeline to save him and therefore that creates all these paradoxes and her appearing all throughout his history.

525
00:43:10.739 --> 00:43:13.619
That's more interesting because it's a normal person who's done this.

526
00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:26.039
A regular person has made this leap and done this rather than she was some magical thing and she was actually a space alien that was, you know, given to her father via leaf or whatever it was. you know what I mean?

527
00:43:26.099 --> 00:43:29.579
Like, it's much more interesting that she's much more relatable as a result.

528
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:31.260
Exactly.

529
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:39.300
And I think also because the character is written thinly, and I'm not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing.

530
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:47.219
Because the character is written thinly, more people in the audience can imagine themselves as that character.

531
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:50.639
So they can imagine that they're the normal person.

532
00:43:50.699 --> 00:44:00.900
And it's like, this is Doctor Who's 50th year and this story is asking the question, would you split yourself throughout the doctor's history to save the doctor as a fan, as a viewer.

533
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:12.900
And I can imagine there are, there are a lot of children at home watching that and realising how much they empathise with Clara without even realising necessarily that that's the reason.

534
00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:19.019
Part of the reason I love Clara in this season, and Nathan alluded to it earlier, and I said it back on Bells of St.

535
00:44:19.019 --> 00:44:19.380
John.

536
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.059
She's Mel.

537
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:33.360
Because she is a fantastic actress who has gone on to great accolades like Bonnie Langford with hardly any character on paper, and yet when she is on screen as the character.

538
00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:37.500
She is just magnetic and fun to watch and fun to be around.

539
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:40.199
But if this had been her last story.

540
00:44:40.260 --> 00:44:46.980
It gets a far more satisfying and reasonable and understandable exit going out of the show.

541
00:44:47.340 --> 00:45:01.860
And part of Mel being so thinly written is that when Mel arrives on the scene, she already instinctively trusts the doctor and he instinctively trusts her, so we get all that out of the way and we have that right from the bells of St.

542
00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:02.219
John.

543
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:09.119
Now, not necessarily from Clara, but, you know, the doctor sitting out on the driveway in front of the Tartars, and she's like, am I safe now?

544
00:45:09.179 --> 00:45:11.099
And he's like, yes, and you always will be.

545
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.579
Are you just going to sit there and keep an eye on me.

546
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:15.239
Yes, I am.

547
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:17.280
It's just it's a really sweet.

548
00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:24.179
And the funny thing is, Matt then starts to distrust her while she is building her trust in him until they hit a crux point.

549
00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:34.920
And the last 3 episodes after journey to the centre of the TARDIS, they are a total team with complete faith in one another.

550
00:45:34.980 --> 00:45:46.500
And that is exemplified in that last bit where he's saying, no, don't go in there, don't go in there, and she's just asking more and more questions of, but if I do, this happens, and he's like, yes, but don't.

551
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:47.940
But if I do, this happens.

552
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:48.659
Yes, but don't.

553
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:54.840
And then Rivers telling her not to go in there and she's basically like, well, now I know it's a good idea.

554
00:45:56.519 --> 00:46:03.300
And I also think this year, this back and off of this season is when Matt's character is the most thinly written.

555
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:11.039
And we talked about it with rings of Akatan, like, yeah, that's not a speech for the script. that speech for Matt Smith, because you know Matt Smith can deliver that speech.

556
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:18.360
And I think just the chemistry of Matt and Jenna together gets us over the line of the thin character writing.

557
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:19.019
Yeah.

558
00:46:19.019 --> 00:46:19.500
Yeah.

559
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:26.940
It was a bit of a problem last week too, with the doctor and Mr. Clever, where it was just like, let's give Matt a big thing to perform.

560
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:32.159
And it doesn't work quite as well as the approach of just giving him normal things.

561
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:37.260
Yeah, and I think also he was stuck in a bit of a Ken Dodd situation of going, they'll tell me.

562
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.460
They'll tell me if it's too much.

563
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:39.840
Yep.

564
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:41.280
It never happened.

565
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:52.079
So let's talk about the final scene then.

566
00:46:52.139 --> 00:47:16.679
So somehow she's still alive and the doctor finds her in this weird space, that's his timeline, and all I could think of was like the end of Rocky Horror, you know, where Brad and Janet are crawling around on their hands and knees in that sort of smoke, you know, the with the dry ice all over the floor.

567
00:47:16.739 --> 00:47:18.119
It's all that sort of thing.

568
00:47:18.179 --> 00:47:19.559
Where does she land?

569
00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:21.780
In the doctor's timeline.

570
00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:24.659
Yeah, I know, I know, like whatever.

571
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.840
It's that bit in the invisible enemy when they're in the doctor's brain.

572
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:30.719
I don't have to say, I'm going...

573
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:32.280
But without the nucleus of the swamp.

574
00:47:33.420 --> 00:47:37.199
But it's in a place which is just full of the doctor, I guess.

575
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:42.420
And so we get a way of introducing John Hurt's character.

576
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:45.960
Lots of rushing coats past.

577
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:47.039
Yeah, yeah.

578
00:47:47.099 --> 00:47:50.820
A particularly, particularly chunky William Hartnall.

579
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.239
Yeah.

580
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:53.579
Like if you freeze frame it.

581
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.440
Which you obviously did.

582
00:47:55.860 --> 00:48:00.780
And, you know, when I say junkie, I kind of mean it as a compliment.

583
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:01.860
Like he looks like a rugby player.

584
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.320
Well, much like the original.

585
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:10.260
I mean, if he brains you with a rock, you'll know about it. another FTE revelation.

586
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.619
Me liking rugby players.

587
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:14.820
Everyone does that.

588
00:48:14.820 --> 00:48:16.920
No, I thought Chunky William Hartnell.

589
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:17.280
Sorry.

590
00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:21.420
I'm having too much title.

591
00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:23.880
I'm having too much medication.

592
00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:24.119
Sorry.

593
00:48:24.659 --> 00:48:28.440
And I guess this is another reinterpretation thing.

594
00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:32.099
So earlier on, it was like, the doctor has a secret.

595
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:38.760
He will take to his grave. and it has been discovered and it refers to the grave, right?

596
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:58.019
And here we've been sitting with the title, the name of the doctor, and it becomes a plot point in so far as the doctor needs to say his name to open his tomb, so everyone can go in, and River has somehow found out the doctor's name.

597
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:03.719
Although I don't think he really told her at the wedding.

598
00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:05.340
Well, when he said he told her.

599
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:07.380
He was actually, look at my eye.

600
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:08.940
Look, I've got a little me in there.

601
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:13.980
But, you know, maybe he then said, oh, and by the way, I'm Greg.

602
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:14.760
Gordon.

603
00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:15.300
Yeah.

604
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:17.880
Um, so...

605
00:49:17.940 --> 00:49:21.840
But the name of the doctor, really kind of means the title of the doctor.

606
00:49:21.900 --> 00:49:28.380
The name of the doctor, the name that he's given himself, not his birth name or anything like that.

607
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.260
But the name that he gave himself because of who he is.

608
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:32.340
He's the doctor.

609
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:34.019
He makes people better.

610
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:49.380
And so this is, I guess, a way of introducing the idea of the war doctor because that's going to be what the day of the doctor is about.

611
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:51.420
Yeah.

612
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:55.440
And these scenes were filmed at the same time as Day of the Doctor.

613
00:49:55.500 --> 00:50:00.179
So the shooting script for the name of the doctor ended with goodbye, sweetie.

614
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:01.139
Oh, okay.

615
00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:11.460
And that was the last bit, and they're like, we know we have to film this later because whoever we're getting at that time, they didn't know they were getting John Hurst, like whoever we're getting will be filmed with name of the doctor.

616
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:15.119
And I think Stephen Moffat was still holding out hope for Chris or Paul.

617
00:50:15.179 --> 00:50:15.780
Right.

618
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:16.320
Right.

619
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:17.639
For Paul?

620
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:18.119
Paul.

621
00:50:18.179 --> 00:50:26.219
Yeah, because when Chris said no, he did try to get Paul and the BBC kind of said, oh, no.

622
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:27.840
Well, I thought that was the case.

623
00:50:27.900 --> 00:50:29.039
I thought it wasn't Paul's decisions.

624
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:31.380
I thought they just went, no, the BBC said, right?

625
00:50:31.380 --> 00:50:36.059
Because there's 2 schools of thought, and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

626
00:50:36.059 --> 00:50:43.440
Either. he wasn't the doctor for long enough in the public eye to be recognisable or unlike John Hurt.

627
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:46.139
But here's the thing.

628
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:46.800
Here's the thing.

629
00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:50.760
Or they viewed the TV movie as a failure and wouldn't link it to that.

630
00:50:50.820 --> 00:50:53.639
So Moffatt was just like, well, Chris won't do it.

631
00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:56.940
What if I get a big name actor who's never been the doctor before?

632
00:50:56.940 --> 00:50:58.800
And they're like, well, it depends how big the name is.

633
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:02.219
They managed to get John Hurt and the BBC are like, okay.

634
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:05.639
I mean, he played a CGI dragon in Merlin.

635
00:51:05.699 --> 00:51:07.019
He's not that big a cow.

636
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:07.679
Exactly.

637
00:51:07.739 --> 00:51:11.280
I guess he's I mean, he's big, but not that big.

638
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:12.780
Like, is it kind of big, you know?

639
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:15.179
Yeah, but that's how we get a knight of the doctor.

640
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:20.639
It was a consolation to Paul because Stephen had been talking to him and then had to come to him and say the BBC don't want you.

641
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:21.059
Right.

642
00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:30.179
Which, you know, she's pretty a pretty horrible thing to have to say to an actor and, you know, kudos to Paul for them turning around and saying, yeah, fine, I'll come in and do a 7 minute thing on the website.

643
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:31.199
Yeah, brilliant.

644
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:34.800
So what was your feeling at the time?

645
00:51:34.860 --> 00:51:39.659
when he turns around and says introduced and it says introducing John Hurt as the doctor.

646
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:41.280
I think it's magnificent.

647
00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:43.500
I think it's an absolutely incredible moment.

648
00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:49.440
And it is kind of funny because normally an introducing credit means it's their 1st go at anything, isn't it?

649
00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:52.380
Yes, this is their film debut. their TV debut, yeah.

650
00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:55.619
But, I mean, this is John Hurt's Doctor Who debut.

651
00:51:55.679 --> 00:52:07.440
I think it's an amazing moment and it is a moment where the credits kind of appear in the show where the show itself is kind of telling us what it's doing now with this actor.

652
00:52:07.500 --> 00:52:12.599
And if the show is telling us that that's really the doctor, then we kind of have to believe it.

653
00:52:12.659 --> 00:52:16.019
You know, the things that are said in the in the credits are real.

654
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:18.719
It was so +and wonderful.

655
00:52:18.780 --> 00:52:32.820
Now, I have to say something, child, just before you just before you start talking to, I have to say, I have to fill it in for the listener that because I'm doing this remotely, I'm seeing my 3 co-hosts on the sofa in a row.

656
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:39.360
Nathan is leaning forward and as Nathan was saying that Todd was making so many faces and shaking his head.

657
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:45.659
So I now want to hear what was going on in your brain, Todd.

658
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.519
It was a beautiful visual.

659
00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:52.079
It was the most beautiful visual.

660
00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:55.920
I love it.

661
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:56.880
Wow.

662
00:52:56.940 --> 00:52:59.400
And I still don't particularly like it.

663
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.340
Who is John Hurt?

664
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:04.559
That's what went in my head.

665
00:53:04.619 --> 00:53:09.239
Like, I heard the name, obviously, in the British public and other people.

666
00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:12.960
He is much bigger actor than what I had ever known.

667
00:53:13.019 --> 00:53:15.659
I had only ever known that he was in, what, Alien?

668
00:53:15.780 --> 00:53:16.139
Yeah.

669
00:53:16.139 --> 00:53:19.199
And that's, and I, and I, sue me.

670
00:53:19.260 --> 00:53:20.880
I've never seen that movie, right?

671
00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:31.920
And so it was just sort of like, and the whole idea, I mean, we'd heard rumours that, you know, Eccleston's not doing it coming up with this other incarnation, and I was just like, oh, yeah, right, really.

672
00:53:31.980 --> 00:53:35.699
So it is a moment, which I do now enjoy, right?

673
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.860
Because I think having obviously seen...

674
00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:38.579
Todd experience.

675
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:42.179
He's actually really good, obviously.

676
00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:45.659
And I actually think...

677
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:50.880
Well, I'll talk more of it at another time, but the getting around Eccleston is actually very clever.

678
00:53:50.940 --> 00:53:54.780
But I still go, oh, John Hurt?

679
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:55.199
Who?

680
00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:58.199
I'm sorry, I just wanted...

681
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:01.860
I mean, I mean, I'm not going to say, oh, give me Tom Cruise or something like that.

682
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:02.639
Do you know what I mean?

683
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:03.960
But I'm just saying...

684
00:54:05.460 --> 00:54:12.900
I mean, I don't think I don't think anyone could have probably impressed me, really.

685
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.800
I mean, I don't know.

686
00:54:13.860 --> 00:54:18.420
I mean, who would you expect, you know, but just from saying, John Hurt?

687
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:20.340
Is that John going, oh, what?

688
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:25.139
I will say, Nathan, one day Aunt Malik is going to turn up and punch you in the face.

689
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:34.800
But Nathan, I am really, really touched that you just find so much joy. in that like at the time and now and forever.

690
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:37.440
Like your positivity is absolutely wonderful.

691
00:54:37.500 --> 00:54:43.739
And, you know, I'm not saying that I missed negative, but, you know, I do like it.

692
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:44.940
I do like it.

693
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:56.400
And it does throw a punch, but I mean, I was familiar with John Hurt from, you know, I Claudius and things like that, and I knew him as a great British character actor.

694
00:54:56.460 --> 00:55:01.440
When he turns around, it's like, well, A, finally, John Hurts in Doctor Who, which is great.

695
00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:06.300
He is I wasn't trying to diminish him by suggesting he wasn't that big before.

696
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:09.480
What I meant was he's not exactly a Hollywood name.

697
00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:10.500
He's not a movie star.

698
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.980
He's not Tom Cruise, as you just said, Todd. not someone mega big.

699
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:19.019
But I was so delighted that it was someone who I saw as a quality actor.

700
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:23.099
And given that he he is quite stagey in his performance.

701
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:29.039
Like, you know, he's got the whole RSC thing going on in deliveries, which always, for me, suits the Doctor Who style.

702
00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:31.920
It's harking back to those, you know, BBC period dramas.

703
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:35.639
But it was just that moment where it was like, yes, they've actually done this.

704
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:48.960
They've actually thought, you know, because the program was off the air for that block of time, there was no completely clean thing between McGann and Eccleston, anything might have happened in that period, you know, numbering the doctors or something that we as fans do.

705
00:55:49.019 --> 00:55:53.880
I think it was an opportunity that there's a gap there that you could do something like this.

706
00:55:53.940 --> 00:56:01.739
And no, I thought it was a great way of having a kind of a one-off casting for the doctor to do that.

707
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:05.219
And, you know, my jaw hit the hit the floor when he turned around. was great.

708
00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:08.820
He's not credited as the war doctor in this, is he?

709
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:12.360
No, in the time of the doctor, the little McGann thing.

710
00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:14.340
He's credited as the wool doctor.

711
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:15.840
Oh, is that where that comes from?

712
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:16.619
Right, right.

713
00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:17.820
Yeah.

714
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:20.460
Yeah, he is just the doctor in this.

715
00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:21.780
And it's kind of weird.

716
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:23.639
Merchandise that appears around this time.

717
00:56:23.699 --> 00:56:26.639
I think his action figure credits him as the other doctor.

718
00:56:26.699 --> 00:56:30.780
So it looks like right up until November.

719
00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:33.840
There's decisions being made of what do we call him?

720
00:56:33.900 --> 00:56:36.480
I'm with you, Simon, in that.

721
00:56:36.539 --> 00:56:49.260
I was familiar with his work and it was kind of like he turns around and my jaw half dropped introducing John Hurt as the doctor, that's when it dropped. that's what I mean.

722
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.179
Yes, that's the full drop is as doctor.

723
00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:52.139
That's what I'm talking about.

724
00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:53.519
John Hurt is great.

725
00:56:53.579 --> 00:56:55.800
Yeah, but not, you know, 0 my God, John Hurt.

726
00:56:56.099 --> 00:57:01.619
Yeah, but is that blurring of the credits with the actual television show, which I think I have a problem with?

727
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:05.760
That's the sort of thing I like where the show reminds you that it's a television show.

728
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:10.260
And so those levels, kind of, interplay with one another.

729
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:13.019
And I'm always kind of a big fan of that.

730
00:57:13.019 --> 00:57:16.980
And I'm not that invested in the show creating a coherent world.

731
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:19.920
And I know for a fact that Stephen Moffatt isn't either.

732
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.780
Otherwise he wouldn't have written all of those things.

733
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:33.599
And look, if you want to create a coherent world, at some point, that doctor, because we're in the doctor's brain, don't forget, at some point that doctor has visited London and someone said, you look like that bloke from Alien, John Hurst.

734
00:57:33.659 --> 00:57:35.400
So he's like, in the doctor's mind.

735
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:37.800
He's like, I'm John Hurt as the doctor.

736
00:57:37.860 --> 00:57:38.460
Hi.

737
00:57:38.460 --> 00:57:39.179
He's diagetic.

738
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:40.199
It's diagetic.

739
00:57:40.260 --> 00:57:46.139
Both Matt and Jenna conceive that writing next to his head when he turns around.

740
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:49.500
So, you know, later on when Jenna's like, so who was that?

741
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.079
She's asking, is he the doctor or is he John Hurt?

742
00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:58.079
Because I thought John Hurt was an actor and he got his stomach exploded and then he got his stomach exploded again in that Mel Brooks movie?

743
00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:00.179
And then he was Winston.

744
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:01.619
Yeah, 1994.

745
00:58:01.619 --> 00:58:02.699
Yeah, in 1994.

746
00:58:02.820 --> 00:58:19.380
The concept of bringing in an extra doctor was described to me by someone who at the time before it happened, who this is this person must have been aware of what it was, but it was described to him as the most misbegotten idea in the history of Doctor Who.

747
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:22.800
And that's an idea that I completely reject, I have to say.

748
00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:24.659
I reject it too.

749
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:25.260
I just want to say that.

750
00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:27.000
I think it's actually a very clever idea.

751
00:58:27.059 --> 00:58:27.900
Yeah.

752
00:58:27.900 --> 00:58:33.900
And, you know, it's been done again and we will discuss that more in like 5 years time.

753
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:35.460
In due course.

754
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:41.039
But when it is done again, it is, again, one of the best ideas that era does.

755
00:58:41.099 --> 00:58:41.880
Yeah.

756
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:42.599
You know.

757
00:58:42.659 --> 00:58:47.519
It's never a bad idea to do new things with the character so long as you're adding mystery and not taking it away.

758
00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:48.239
Yeah.

759
00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:52.800
And I think in both instances, now, now, and in the future with a timeless child.

760
00:58:52.860 --> 00:59:00.539
It does it in a way which doesn't require you to completely have to retcon the entire program.

761
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:09.480
Given the fact that, you know, he says that, you know, this guy is not really the doctor because he doesn't, he's not, doesn't take on the name of the doctor because he doesn't deserve it because he did this terrible thing, right?

762
00:59:09.539 --> 00:59:13.920
So I don't, in my brain, I do not think of him as the doctor.

763
00:59:13.980 --> 00:59:21.420
And likewise, there's whatever happens, you know, Pre Hartnell is kind of like, well, that's sort of like almost like a different, whole different cycle of life.

764
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:30.179
So you can still have, you can still have the series up to this point without it being demolished by this new revelation.

765
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:59.280
Well, then, listener, that's all we have time for this week.

766
00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:04.500
We'll be back next week to wrap up the last two years in our Series 7 retrospective.

767
01:00:04.739 --> 01:00:24.480
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FDE podcast on Twitter and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

768
01:00:24.659 --> 01:00:32.820
Until next time, remember that conference calls are only productive and enjoyable if you get someone to bludgeon you unconscious beforehand.

769
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:35.280
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

770
01:00:35.340 --> 01:00:36.300
Good night.

771
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:37.260
See you soon.

772
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:38.039
Bye bye.

773
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:48.360
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, Brandon Jones and Simon Moore.

774
01:00:48.420 --> 01:00:50.280
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam.

775
01:00:50.340 --> 01:00:56.159
This episode, full of the doctor, was recorded on the 26th of June 2022 and released on the 23rd of October.

776
01:01:00.420 --> 01:01:10.679
Fans of this sort of thing will also enjoy maximum power, which returns this week with a very special episode, an interview with Doctor Who and Blake 7 director, Michael Lee Bryant.

777
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:13.920
Check out maximumpowerpodcast.com for the details.

778
01:01:18.300 --> 01:01:20.639
I think...

779
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:21.480
Yeah, I think that's it.

780
01:01:21.539 --> 01:01:22.380
Yeah, I think that's good.

781
01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:24.599
And you've done the outro already.

782
01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:26.159
And I've done the outro already.

783
01:01:26.820 --> 01:01:28.380
Are you good?

784
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:34.739
Yes, I'm good. revelation of the...

785
01:01:34.739 --> 01:01:36.300
I think it's called Chunky William Hartnell.

786
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:39.119
Yeah, yeah, I think it's absolutely called chunky William Hardle.

787
01:01:39.179 --> 01:02:00.420
The one thing that I'd observe on the chunky one type thing is, I mean, it doesn't, this doesn't have to go in or anything, is that I know, you know, you're never going to be able to get the body language right, but it's, it's, it's like it's worse than Terry Walsh, all these, you know, people strolling around as, as, as Colin everything. you know what I mean?

788
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:03.239
It's so obviously not the same people.

789
01:02:03.300 --> 01:02:05.219
It's, it's, it's...

790
01:02:05.219 --> 01:02:12.599
It's when Patrick Trouton's running and he runs and then you cut to him running and it's a different running motion like it's much slower.

791
01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:13.980
Yeah, it's wrong.

792
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:14.519
It just wrong.

793
01:02:14.579 --> 01:02:19.739
Like, you know, surely there are enough fans out there who can do accurate body impersonations.

794
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:23.699
You just, you know, put a call out on Facebook and get them all in and to audition.

795
01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:24.599
I mean, what's it?

796
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:25.739
Who is it?

797
01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:26.400
What's his face?

798
01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:27.119
John Colshaw.

799
01:02:27.179 --> 01:02:27.480
No.

800
01:02:27.480 --> 01:02:29.340
What's the other one?

801
01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:30.059
The pretty one.

802
01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:31.920
Oh, Jacob Dudman.

803
01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:35.940
The newer one, the newer one that's doing all the all the impersonations.

804
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:37.260
Yeah, but that's vocal impersonations.

805
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:39.000
We need, you know, the physical impersonation.

806
01:02:39.059 --> 01:02:40.679
Someone who could do the physical thing.

807
01:02:40.739 --> 01:02:41.460
Yeah, yeah.

808
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:50.099
The only other thing I'd sort of add, just a sort of a funnier side, is you know, how you're saying that, you know, that you use, they use 2 clips from the 5 doctors, one, but they both put we in trout and from the 5 doctors.

809
01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:54.179
It's like back in the old days, you know, in the 80s.

810
01:02:54.179 --> 01:02:55.500
That's all we knew. all.

811
01:02:55.559 --> 01:03:05.639
Well, no, but also it's the fact that, you know, internally, you know, the production office probably had to pay this stupid sum of money to the archive to extract a tape that they could then use.

812
01:03:05.699 --> 01:03:10.139
And so it was going to be cheaper if they just got the 5 doctors and they could grab everyone from there.

813
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:19.440
It's like that's why you got the same blue pizza clips appearing again and again and again is because it's like, oh, let's just grab the, you know, the 1970s.

814
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:28.500
You don't have to pay extra for someone to crawl through the tapes because we don't have anyone on staff who's sad enough to just automatically know when all these sequences happened.

815
01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:33.480
That doesn't count.

816
01:03:33.539 --> 01:03:33.900
Okay.

817
01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:35.579
I, no, I might.

818
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:38.280
I have the dog scratching at the door.

819
01:03:38.340 --> 01:03:38.699
Yes.

820
01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.699
And so we might leave you to get on with.

821
01:03:41.699 --> 01:03:42.900
So I'm pressing stop.

822
01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.900
Yeah, if you can just send me...