WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:51:06

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Hello, dear, listener, and welcome back to Flight through

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Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast whose name is a promise we've made

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which is why it looks like, will be doing this for the rest of our

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lives.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, we've got catchphrases, nursery rhymes, low effort fairytale

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monsters, non-chronological storytelling, a mystery solved by

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reevaluating the semantics of a sentence, a phone call that goes

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wrong, people springing back to life, and a startlingly upsetting

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new rule about time travel.

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And everyone seems to be unhealthily obsessed with the personal

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details of our titular character.

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So, who is the doctor?

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Let's find out as we discuss the name of the doctor.

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I have to say that I don't hate this episode, but I do think...

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Well I don't know.

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Well, we're a Doctor Who podcast.

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Yeah, we hate territory.

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It is Moffat vamping though for 45 minutes, isn't it?

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Yes, it is basically a mission to the unknown to the 50th

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anniversary Dalek Master Plan.

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Basically, but I think it works for that.

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It is not a traditional end of season finale, and it's fair enough

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to criticise it for that.

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But I think it manages to lead us into the 50th anniversary

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without being needlessly cheesy or too self-indulgent and yeah, I

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really, really, really like it.

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I really like it too.

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I just like to say, but it is very different.

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It just sort of just happens.

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Like, I mean, it just starts and you'll suddenly, well, I'm swept

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away by all the 1st Dr. Clara stuff and her seeing all the

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different incarnations of the doctor.

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Listeners, do you like my voice today?

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It's going to be like this throughout the entire podcast.

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How many packets have you smoked yesterday?

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Like all those clips of the doctors.

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I was talking to Brendan earlier and I said, Colin is the only

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one.

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You don't actually have, they shut off.

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They mustn't been able to find one in all of his clips.

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There must be some reason why.

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Everybody else gets a moment with old footage of Clara.

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Do you know what I mean?

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I think the choice of clips is very strange, and there may be a

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technical reason for it.

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Like having pertwee from the 5 doctors or, you know, refusing to

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just completely memory hole arc of infinity.

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Like, those are very strange choices.

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And also that weird cliffhanger from Dragonfire as well.

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It is odd.

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And there must have been some sort of technical reasons for it.

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Yeah, it's basically just a hangover from Stephen Moffatt's

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original script idea where he essentially does write new scenes

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for all the doctors to be in.

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And so Colin was meant to be seen at the sparking control panel of

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a spaceship.

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Right.

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You know?

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And Silv was meant to be seen hanging from a girder over a

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battlefield like that Doctor Who magazine cover that one time.

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Right, right.

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And so that eventually gets translated to the clip from Dragonfire

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where he's doing the same thing.

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And yeah, I think it's entirely budgetary.

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Like as much as this is the lead into the 50th anniversary, it is

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also the tail end of the season.

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It's not the last episode produced, which I believe is the Crimson

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Horror, but it is towards the end of the season, and Matt and

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Jenna were being pulled to do reshoots for previous episodes and

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were going out to do pre-shoots for the following episodes.

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So everyone's being pulled pulled from Poletta Post.

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But I remember at the time watching this and when Hartnell

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appeared, listener, this is the actual noise I made.

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I'd like to apologise to any of the dogs.

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Then when the Arc of Infinity Clip came up, I just went, oh

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really?

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That's what we're choosing?

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And in that discussion I was having with Todd earlier, thinking, oh

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you know, why have they chosen 2 bits from the 5 doctors?

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And it's like, well, at the time, one of the big 5 doctors, big

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claims to fame was they had all the original film.

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And of course, you know, if you've got the original film, it's

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easier to drop new elements into it.

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But even then...

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And they can rescan at high res.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's like even then, um, and something that's totally blinking

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you'll miss it is before the 2nd doctor runs past her in, I think

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it's Florida.

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I think it's stock footage of Florida, you get a figure in a green

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coat running past her and it's McGann.

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And it's like 3 frames of McGann.

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Again, in the original script, she's meant to be on these

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windswept cliffs and she looks over at another cliff and there is

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a green coated figure writhing in pain in the distance and

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starting to glow.

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Oh, okay.

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Yeah.

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I think it's a matter of Stephen Moffatt has this great ambition

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and then the visual effects of the department, like, we've given

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you flying bikes.

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We've given you like this giant puppet in a forest a couple of

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weeks ago.

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We still, look, we still got to do Diana Riggs makeup.

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Can we just can we just save some money, please?

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We don't see Paul, do we?

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We just see his card.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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We see 3 frames of his coat.

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Anyway, we go back to the leaf.

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That's the pre-credit sequence, so it's sort of, we think it's all

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about the impossible girl.

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I mentioned to you earlier, Nathan, that I wanted this to be

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called, the Impossible Girl, but it does start off being about the

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Impossible Girl, but it takes a, you know, a right hand turn and

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ends up somewhere different.

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I guess this is being told in chronological order because her

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existence inside the doctor's timeline turns out to have pre

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happened as a result of things that happen in this episode.

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And so we start with that.

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And we've got the, I don't know where I am thing from Bells of

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St.

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John, which tips us off that the great intelligence is going to be

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involved.

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And I guess we must have known that given that he does turn up in

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that episode.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, even even that, the flashback to the leaf and her falling

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through the vortex and what have you, in Moffatt's original script

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she's in a cottage by the sea.

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There's a photo of the Maitlands.

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There's a photo of the doctor, but she's looking out of the

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windows and seeing all the previous doctors and she then gets the

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last line into the credits of whatever Madame Vastra tells you, do

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not go to Transalore.

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Q credits.

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Right.

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And, um, there's no documented reason why Moffatt moved away from

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that, but perhaps he kind of went, we're already getting a bit

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weird and he wanted to save it for the Zygon inversion.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Trends are law.

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It's a great space name, isn't it?

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I think it's a properly good space name, like Andrazani or

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Galafre.

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It's a really skilful space name.

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It has a Z in it, but it sounds like a word.

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It does sound like a word.

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And one of the things that I really, really like about trendzolore

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is that it sort of mythicizes the doctor's death.

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Like, we know the doctor is going to die because everyone dies and

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he says that himself.

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And of course, because he's a time traveller.

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If we learn nothing else from Revelation of the Daleks, We know

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that the doctor has to be buried somewhere.

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And so Trezilore is like an ending.

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You know, the doctor's story now starts at Gallifrey and ends at

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Trezalore.

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And I think that's great.

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And it's a really moffety thing to take something that we sort of

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know or that we kind of must know about.

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But to make it explicit to make it happen.

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And so I think trends of law is a good name and I do think that

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setting this at trends of law is a great idea.

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There's also just, for me anyway, there is a symmetry because

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trendzolore and galafray. the same stresses on the same syllables

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and they're both kind of silly space names, but also they roll off

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the tongue.

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Yeah.

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You know, it's not...

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Ranscorav cola.

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I was trying to reach for something...

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See, I can't even inform those sounds.

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Yes, it's not something you have to force you out to do strange

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things.

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Because I was like, Zita Minor. like, no, that's actually quite a

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good space now. into minor is quite a good space name.

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Yeah.

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But no, yeah, yeah, it's no Ren Score, of course.

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Even at the time, I'm like, does this place have a relation to

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Gallifrey?

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And I believe there was a consideration to make, oh, wait

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Trezalore is Galafrey, a revelation later when Matt Smith was

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possibly doing another season, but they dropped that.

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You know, so his defensive trends law would take on a whole new

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meaning when he discovered actually it's, I did rescue Gallivre

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but no one on Gallivre remembers and they think it's called trends

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law.

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Is Transalore Retcon in time of the doctor?

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Does it end up not happening?

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I'd say so because he doesn't die.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I think that I think that Trendzilord doesn't end up

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happening.

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And it is that thing because like I have been very critical of

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giving the doctor backstory.

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And in fact, I listened to our timeless children, Jody into Tara

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episode yesterday, and I said that I was very angry at the

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introduction of new backstory for the doctor in the War Games

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episode 10.

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And I said that I thought it ruined the mystery of the character

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and really threatened the integrity of the program.

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Now, here we do have that backstory, but the backstory is kind of

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loose and inserting Clara into it doesn't really change anything

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very much.

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And I do like that scene where Clara's there saying, no, you know

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go and take the other TARDIS.

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It's going to be much better.

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I think that's adorable.

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Yes.

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And the fact that we see that scene happen and we don't know what

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it means when she says you're going to make a terrible mistake and

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then we see it happen again later.

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You're taking the wrong TARDIS, not that you're leaving at all.

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Like, that's a scene that we knew always happened, was the doctor

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stealing the TARDIS.

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And so starting the episode with that, I think, is pretty damn

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great.

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But I don't think it spoils anything.

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And I think, like I was on a podcast reasonably recently called

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Pull to Open, and they have a standard thing that they do every

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episode, which is where is Clara in this episode?

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Like, where's Wally?

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Well, we were going to do that with who is chameleon in this

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episode rapidly lost.

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Who is Chameleon?

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So that, like, that is a fun thing.

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But it doesn't sort of spoil anything, I think.

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It just, you know, it's in this episode.

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You aren't watching Doctor Who thinking, I wonder where Clara is

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really, which is the point of the joke, I think.

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Yes.

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There was a plan.

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Yeah.

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There was a plan when, and I'm jumping. jumping to the end here

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but there was a plan when Clara was describing what she had seen

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she said, I saw Amy Pond in the Pandoraca, and we were going to

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cut to Amy Pond in the Pandoraca, and her falling out, and Clara

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was going to be standing in the background, and she was going to

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see, I saw you killed at Lake Salencio, and we were going to see a

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clip of that because in both those instances, there's a crew

251
00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:49.799
member in the background.

252
00:12:50.460 --> 00:12:51.960
Really?

253
00:12:52.019 --> 00:12:54.659
And in Stephen Moffat script, it's like, can we make it look like

254
00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:56.220
Clara by cutting to a close-up?

255
00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:02.700
And I wonder if someone just said, Stephen.

256
00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:04.379
Just let it go, darling.

257
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:09.000
Because, look, I've just mentioned those things and seen 3 very

258
00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.200
surprised pair of eyes from professional Doctor Who podcasters.

259
00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:16.440
We haven't noticed, even in 10 years, we haven't noticed.

260
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:29.940
Let's go back to the beginning.

261
00:13:29.940 --> 00:13:34.139
The whole setup with this, with the whole conference call.

262
00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:34.500
Yeah.

263
00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:36.659
It just sort of just happens, you know?

264
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.980
I mean, yes, we have the Whispermen thing, but the fact that Jenny

265
00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:42.360
forgets to lock the front door.

266
00:13:42.419 --> 00:13:45.179
They haven't they haven't necessarily haven't seen the Whispermen

267
00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:45.899
or anything like that.

268
00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.419
Like, that's a normal Doctor Who thing where there's some sort of

269
00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:51.539
threat and we need to, you know, we're in dire straits, lock the

270
00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:52.980
doors, let's get the conference call going.

271
00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:55.379
Instead, we're just doing it, and they're just suddenly then

272
00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:55.679
around.

273
00:13:55.740 --> 00:13:56.700
Yeah.

274
00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.299
It's a very Moffat thing is the phone call.

275
00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:04.980
And you might remember that there are episodes of press gang, which

276
00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:09.539
depend on phone calls as an idea or answer machine messages or all

277
00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:10.259
sorts of things.

278
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.659
It's something that Moffatt is obsessed with.

279
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:19.139
And so to have this thing where we're absorbed in this scene.

280
00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:22.440
We're kind of forgetting the setup that they're all unconscious in

281
00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.659
sort of different rooms in different time periods.

282
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.960
And then suddenly the world that we've forgotten is happening

283
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:33.000
outside, sort of intrudes on the phone call and has, you know, like

284
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:34.500
has an effect on the phone call.

285
00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:36.600
And I think that is terrifically good.

286
00:14:36.659 --> 00:14:40.080
I love the scene with Strax where he goes to Glasgow on the

287
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:42.779
weekends and just sort of beats the crap out of people.

288
00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:47.700
And I'm glad that Moffatt made that joke rather than anyone else.

289
00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:49.139
Yeah.

290
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:50.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

291
00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:54.059
Yeah, it's a bit like RTD was allowed to make jokes about

292
00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:54.720
Cardiff.

293
00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:56.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

294
00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:02.220
Even that conference call scene with the outside world influencing

295
00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:05.340
the conference call was going to be set up in a joke.

296
00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:09.000
Halfway through one of his lines, Strax was going to suddenly

297
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.940
clutch his head and shout, thank you, Archie, that will do.

298
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.360
So like Archie is still beating him with his face in the real

299
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:15.779
world.

300
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:21.899
I just love the best line is, you know, not the one with the

301
00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:22.559
enormous head.

302
00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:27.000
The way he says the word hair.

303
00:15:27.659 --> 00:15:30.480
You know, he doesn't even really know what it is.

304
00:15:30.539 --> 00:15:33.059
Oh, I thought you said it's enormous head.

305
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.740
I know, but later on when he's corrected and told that it's her

306
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:38.039
hair.

307
00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:40.139
He just says the word hair.

308
00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:45.600
And I mean, my favourite part of that whole scene is I just didn't

309
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:49.320
realise you were a woman and the look on Ripper's face is just, I

310
00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:50.039
don't have a body.

311
00:15:50.100 --> 00:15:52.500
I will find a body. will kill you.

312
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:57.779
Yes, delightfully hurt expression as well, slightly hurt.

313
00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:01.320
And so this is the end, isn't it?

314
00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:07.259
This is chronologically the last time that we see river, and she

315
00:16:07.259 --> 00:16:12.600
will be back, obviously, for the Christmas special in, what, 2

316
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:13.679
years time or something.

317
00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:20.460
But that set before she goes to the library, isn't it?

318
00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:23.700
the, you know, the night before she goes off to the library.

319
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:28.440
So this is after he's uploaded her at the end of silence in the

320
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:28.919
library.

321
00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:32.039
So this is, and this is a farewell to her as a character, I

322
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:32.340
think.

323
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:37.799
And because she's so closely associated with Matt Smith's doctor

324
00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:42.360
you know, Tennant gets one story with Capoldi gets one story with

325
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:42.539
her.

326
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:44.159
I think we needed this.

327
00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:50.159
This is his last regular episode. and so we need the chance to say

328
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:51.360
goodbye to river I think.

329
00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:55.919
Yeah, and it's also nice that we do get a little bit of her after

330
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.399
she's been uploaded to the internet so that we know that she's

331
00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.519
doing okay and she's still having a wonderful time and getting

332
00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.420
into mischief and so on rather than just walking off to that big

333
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:08.940
house in the country, whatever it was. looking after those

334
00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:09.539
horrible children.

335
00:17:09.660 --> 00:17:10.200
Yes.

336
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.039
As opposed to Clara.

337
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:15.599
Yeah, never mind.

338
00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:20.819
Yeah, and that kiss, the kiss between Matt and River is a proper

339
00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:21.359
kiss.

340
00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:24.539
It's the only problem.

341
00:17:24.539 --> 00:17:25.859
I think so.

342
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:31.259
Remember we get the last kiss in the day of the moon where Matt

343
00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:36.240
drops her off home and she kisses him and he's surprised because

344
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.420
that's never happened before and she's aware that that's their

345
00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:42.960
last kiss, but they get to have a proper proper kiss.

346
00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:47.940
And I also like the fact that, um, that Moffatt doesn't care about

347
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:50.279
what her status is.

348
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:52.920
Like, she's just an actor in the room with Matt.

349
00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:56.400
It doesn't matter if she's an uploaded cyber ghost or who cares?

350
00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:59.279
They have to kiss because it's good buy.

351
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:01.680
Yeah, we have to kind of do that properly.

352
00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:03.900
And I thought that was really, really nice.

353
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.319
There was no kind of Matt spitting or looking surprised or

354
00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:07.859
anything like that.

355
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:09.960
I think he initiates it, doesn't he?

356
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:10.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

357
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.420
Yeah, it's really good.

358
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:13.859
It's properly good, I think.

359
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.279
And including last night when I rewatched this.

360
00:18:17.339 --> 00:18:22.140
I just sob my heart out when he says it would hurt.

361
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:23.039
Yeah, yeah.

362
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:27.180
Because, you know, we, with Matt's talk to, we're always like, oh

363
00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:30.119
you know, he doesn't understand human emotion, and it's just in

364
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:33.299
that moment, it's like, oh, no, no, he totally gets it.

365
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:34.079
Yeah.

366
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:39.359
Um, and even at the beginning of the episode when he's explaining

367
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.640
to Clara what trends the law is.

368
00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:45.599
And, you know, he's been, he's been his usual self since the

369
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.059
beginning with the blind man's buff and doesn't it?

370
00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:49.319
Yeah, the little dalek.

371
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.019
And there's like the 2nd Trezilora is mentioned.

372
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.640
He is suddenly a 1000 years old and crushed on the sofa.

373
00:18:56.700 --> 00:18:58.559
So affected at that moment, isn't he?

374
00:18:58.619 --> 00:18:59.819
It's really moving.

375
00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.720
Seeing him cry like that is amazing, I think.

376
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:08.400
And just Clara's reaction to it, but just seeing him cry properly

377
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.619
without sort of grandstanding or anything like that.

378
00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:15.539
It's not a big, you know, tenant chewing the scenery kind of, you

379
00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:17.640
know, I'm too young to go or whatever.

380
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:18.359
Yes.

381
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.940
It's it's great.

382
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.359
It's really sort of underplayed, but it's properly affecting just

383
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:25.799
seeing the doctor like that.

384
00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:32.940
And something I've noticed rewatching the season this time is by

385
00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:38.039
the time we get to this point, the doctor trusts Clara, and, you

386
00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:40.920
know, it was kind of everything was going fine until Hyde, and

387
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.319
then you've got Journey to the centre of the Tartars, where he

388
00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:45.240
rounds on her, like, who are you?

389
00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:45.779
What are you?

390
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.319
But by this point, like every time she asks him a question.

391
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:51.539
He answers her, like, what's trendzilor?

392
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.640
Who's river song, et cetera.

393
00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:55.740
He like, he definitely trusts her.

394
00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:58.799
And then she follows him to the TARDIS and he tells her more.

395
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:03.180
And when he says to her, is there any point telling you not to

396
00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:03.539
come?

397
00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:08.819
In Moffatt's original script, she looks to the TARDIS doors, they

398
00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:12.299
slam and she turns around and says all girls together.

399
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:15.779
And it's like now the TARDIS trusts her as well.

400
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.599
And I'm kind of sad we got rid of that because we never really

401
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.779
resolve the Tartars not liking her. this season.

402
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:27.599
That's true Yeah, it's it's funny because this story basically has

403
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.119
no new supporting characters.

404
00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:34.200
Like you've got Andrew and Fabian in, sorry, I should say Andro

405
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.279
Archaeoptrics and Fabian Drabatralunda in the TARDIS repair yard.

406
00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:41.700
You've got Clarence.

407
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:42.480
Clarence.

408
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:48.539
And um, Archie and the little boy who's not Thomas Thomas hadn't

409
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:50.039
been cast yet, unfortunately.

410
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:55.799
Um, I think I said way back with the Big Bang that Moffatt does

411
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.940
introspective character finales, and this is probably the 2nd most

412
00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:00.599
introspective.

413
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:02.759
I don't think you can get much more introspective than heaven

414
00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:03.420
sent.

415
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:08.160
Yeah, this is this is incredibly introspective because it's about

416
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.200
the character of the doctor.

417
00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:12.480
And I think I didn't like that at the time, but I like it a bit

418
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:12.779
more now.

419
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.599
I mean, it is vamping, isn't it?

420
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:19.079
He's got all of his semi-regulars together.

421
00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:23.279
There's no new people and we're just doing things with them that

422
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:24.660
they would ordinarily do.

423
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:31.619
And the sets are what, the house where we've seen Clara before all

424
00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:36.059
season, Madame Vastra's house, and then just these various dark

425
00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:41.940
spaces that are created in the studio that are kind of hard to

426
00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:44.099
imagine, these just strange spaces.

427
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:49.019
So, trends of law, you know, near the doctor's tomb, inside the

428
00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:51.240
doctor's timeline for the final scene.

429
00:21:51.299 --> 00:21:57.240
And so there's something sombre about it that fits the idea that

430
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.140
this is an episode about the doctor kind of encountering his death

431
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:04.380
as a kind of fact that happens.

432
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:09.119
Something else that I find foreboding, even though it's very

433
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:11.460
subtle, is, I mean, it's one thing to say that, you know, the

434
00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:13.140
TARDIS doesn't want to go to Translore.

435
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:14.099
It can't go to trends law.

436
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.779
You know, it's not allowed to, isn't it?

437
00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:18.660
Cross his time stream and have the, you know, the console blowing

438
00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:19.440
up and all the rest of it.

439
00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:21.839
And, you know, they end up in all but around the planet, and then

440
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.200
he literally turns off the gravity so that they can fall down to

441
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:25.740
the planet.

442
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.279
And it's just that lovely moment where he exits and he puts his

443
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.740
hand up to the cracked glass pane.

444
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:37.440
And the way he says, oops, in this very, I've really done a bad

445
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.180
thing and I'm really going further.

446
00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:42.359
That actually says a whole lot more than than all the other kind

447
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:43.079
of carrying on.

448
00:22:43.140 --> 00:22:43.440
I think.

449
00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:45.480
It's just really subtle and I really like it.

450
00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:48.839
And the giant TARDIS has that same window cracked.

451
00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:51.779
Yeah, so when we see the doctor's tomb.

452
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.279
And again, that's such a genius idea, an absolute Moffat genius

453
00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.180
idea that when a TARDIS is dying, all of the bigger on the

454
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:02.819
insideness leaks out into the real world.

455
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.559
And it's so logical. so clever.

456
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:05.460
It's so clever.

457
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:06.839
And it also has a sort of a logic to it.

458
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:08.279
And there's no technobabble there.

459
00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:10.559
It's just it's just elegantly simple.

460
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:12.779
And none of us ever thought of it.

461
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:14.099
No, exactly right.

462
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.619
It's an absolute classic Moffat thing.

463
00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:21.539
And it creates this sort of really weird visual where you've got a

464
00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:26.039
massive TARDIS where it's massive in 2 dimensions, but not in the

465
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:27.000
3rd dimension.

466
00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:29.700
It sort of seems to be thinner.

467
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:35.160
Like, it's, it's weird and foreboding and absolutely what you want

468
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:37.440
the doctors tombed to look like, I think.

469
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:39.839
It's really, really good.

470
00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.559
It's a, slightly better, I think, probably than the previous

471
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:46.859
attempt at the doctor's, the doctor's grave.

472
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.680
Less poly starring. revelation.

473
00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:53.579
Yeah, where all that polystyrene falls on Colin.

474
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:55.019
I mean, it's a great shot.

475
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:56.759
I think it's a good story as well.

476
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:02.700
But that, yeah, it's doing it's doing kind of melancholy in 2

477
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:03.119
different ways.

478
00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:05.940
You've got the darkness of trends of law, but then you've got the

479
00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:09.720
quiet snowscape of whatever that planet's called.

480
00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:13.259
Necros.

481
00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:14.039
Necros.

482
00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:15.779
There we go, of course. should know that.

483
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:17.400
Why have I forgotten that?

484
00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:19.859
We could have done with Mr. Copper in a wig.

485
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:20.940
Yeah, yeah.

486
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.460
No, that would have just added something to it.

487
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.839
I really like how Transalores realised, too, that there's no

488
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.200
attempt to be realistic about it, and there's a scene, I think

489
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.980
quite early on, where the 2 of them are walking, and it's clearly

490
00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:42.599
just back projection, isn't it?

491
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:45.660
They're just walking in front of a screen that's showing the

492
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:51.539
clouds and sky in the background and just how sombre and bleak and

493
00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:53.819
kind of miserable everything is.

494
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:59.880
And you get this massive universe spanning cataclysm where the

495
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:04.079
doctors are raised and everyone that he saved is now no longer

496
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:06.299
saved and all of the stars are going out.

497
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.200
And uh, you know, it's the sort of cataclysm the show has done

498
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:10.500
before.

499
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:15.420
But it kind of works that that is only experienced by this small

500
00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:19.079
group of people who are standing around on trends or outside the

501
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:19.859
doctor's tomb.

502
00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:21.000
I like it.

503
00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:22.619
You know what disappointed me?

504
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:24.119
A couple of things.

505
00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:28.799
One, we don't hear the doctor's name because River whispers it and

506
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:29.519
we don't hear it.

507
00:25:29.579 --> 00:25:33.480
We get told that, oh, yes, the doctors told me all about you by

508
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:37.200
Clara, like, you know, like, so he's just mentioned River

509
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.079
offscreen, which is one of those tropes that I can't stand, but

510
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:43.440
I'm sure he's having a go at all of us who are like that.

511
00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:44.880
No, I'm just being silly, Simon.

512
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:46.920
And what was the other thing?

513
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:48.960
Oh, yes, the grades. you know, we get rivers grape.

514
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:52.259
Well, where's dodoes and Catarinas and mattress, you know?

515
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:54.599
That's how all of the ones that are, you know?

516
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.980
But I love all the river stuff, all the intercutting with river

517
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:05.640
with Clara talking, but the doctor's dialogue at the same time and

518
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.240
the lead up to the tomb in that is all just so delicious.

519
00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:13.680
And that's why the revelations that he was able to see her all

520
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:18.720
along. is so great that they're having this conversation behind

521
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:20.099
his back about him.

522
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.000
She's prompting Clara and all of that sort of thing, but it just

523
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.539
turns out the doctor just knew all of that and wasn't letting on.

524
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.000
Doesn't he stop her from slapping him too?

525
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:31.380
Yes.

526
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:33.779
Yeah, that's when she realises he can hear her.

527
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.279
He can hear her.

528
00:26:35.339 --> 00:26:35.519
Yes.

529
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:38.880
It was a great moment because, you know, she slapped him before, so

530
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:39.839
you know..

531
00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:49.500
I also love that Vastra Jenny and Strax get a lot to do that's

532
00:26:49.500 --> 00:26:51.480
based on their individual characters.

533
00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:55.440
They're not just there to be people to share the dialogue around.

534
00:26:55.500 --> 00:26:56.700
You know what I mean?

535
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:01.259
Like Jenny is the cautious sceptic, even before they go into all

536
00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:01.559
this.

537
00:27:01.619 --> 00:27:07.440
Vastra is brash and brave and Strax gets to say things like when

538
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.299
he's getting his heart squeezed through his chest.

539
00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:11.220
I think I've got him on the runzer.

540
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:12.960
So great.

541
00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:15.599
He's really like, why did you give in?

542
00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:18.720
Yeah, he's really terrific.

543
00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:22.920
And then the fantastic camera work when Jenny disappears, like

544
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.519
she's behind Vestra and the camera is just moving very gently to

545
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:27.779
focus on Vestra.

546
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:32.880
And it's literally a 2 seconds after Jenny is obscured that Vast

547
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:33.420
returns around.

548
00:27:33.539 --> 00:27:37.559
And so there is some kind of special effects work going on there.

549
00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:39.900
I don't think it's just Catherine Stewart walking out of shot.

550
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:43.380
But if it's Catherine's, you're walking out of shot behind like a

551
00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:44.759
digital mat, you know.

552
00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:46.380
It's still so well done.

553
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:50.460
And Niamh McIntosh in that scene when Jenny disappears and she has

554
00:27:50.460 --> 00:27:53.039
to kill Strax is just astonishing.

555
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:56.880
Yeah, so she is very, very good in this, in this episode.

556
00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:01.799
I'm not a huge fan of those three, but I actually think this is

557
00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:03.539
possibly when they're at their best.

558
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.380
I'm surprised just watching how important they are to the sort of

559
00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:09.960
end of Matt Smith. era.

560
00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:12.059
And I do like them.

561
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:15.839
I think that Dan Starkey is hilarious and just all of those silly

562
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.240
lines about, you know, pools of acid and various types of grenades

563
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:25.079
and stuff and not being able to tell the sex of anything, like all

564
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:27.779
of that, that's just kind of sitcom shtick.

565
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.839
But Moffatt is very good at that sort of thing.

566
00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:34.019
And I think it absolutely has a place in Doctor Who.

567
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:39.180
And one thing that I can praise Chris Chibnell for is that I

568
00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:43.019
didn't think that the Santarans were a going concern after Strax

569
00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:45.119
had made them so ridiculous.

570
00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:50.700
And he managed to bring them back in a good way and keep them

571
00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:55.859
funny without minimising their threat in any way. phrases you

572
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:56.400
rarely hear.

573
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:00.480
I've always liked the 3 of them.

574
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.200
And I think it's a shame that they just have one more episode

575
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:04.859
after this.

576
00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:08.039
Like I would have liked a couple more because I really do think

577
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.220
they work well with the doctor regardless of who it is.

578
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.299
Yeah, I think they're kind of like unit, aren't they, in robot, you

579
00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:19.079
know, like we just get them back once more so that we're all okay

580
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:20.460
about the new doctor.

581
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.220
And so that Clara has someone to talk to about the new doctor.

582
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:26.220
I always thought it was a shame when the doctor regenerated and

583
00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:30.180
like no one kind of witnessed it, like peed into Colin.

584
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:33.420
Like no one's really there to kind of know anything about that

585
00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:38.759
apart from Perry because there's no larger context that the show

586
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:39.720
has at the time.

587
00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:44.640
Whereas, you know, when Eggleston regenerates into tenant, it

588
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.599
affects a range of people and we get to see a number of people who

589
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:53.220
knew that doctor reacting to it. and I think that, you know, that's

590
00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:57.359
clearly what's happening when we get perjury for the 1st time when

591
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:58.980
we get Tom Baker for the 1st time.

592
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:03.599
You know, it's it's more fun, I think, to have that regeneration

593
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:05.160
happened with more witnesses.

594
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.619
And so I think they're perfect for that.

595
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:11.640
And look, they're clearly part of his toy box, you know, they're

596
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:12.839
his go to things.

597
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:14.640
I've got an important episode.

598
00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:16.680
The doctor needs to have friends.

599
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:17.579
Who are they going to be?

600
00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:21.660
What do you think of the role of the great intelligence in all of

601
00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:21.900
this?

602
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.059
And it's arc in this season?

603
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:25.859
It suddenly is very quite powerful, isn't it?

604
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.180
Like it's gotten more powerful or am I just off on a tangent?

605
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.039
I don't know.

606
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:38.400
I think there seem to be an attempt to make the web, the web of

607
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.599
fear is the internet, the worldwide web, and you have the great

608
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:46.380
intelligence living in there, and he's seen on computer screens

609
00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:49.500
and stuff like that, and all of that seems to make good sense.

610
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:56.220
Um, Elle Sandifer has a hilarious crack about how Richard E. Grant

611
00:30:56.220 --> 00:30:59.759
is absolutely phoning it in and that that's what the character

612
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:05.700
needs, like a, uh, a, you know, like a good, well-known top tier

613
00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:10.259
actor completely phoning it in to play the great intelligence

614
00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:11.099
works really well.

615
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.579
And so he does that underbite thing, you know, the way that he

616
00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:17.519
sort of holds his mouth and stuff like that.

617
00:31:17.579 --> 00:31:18.660
I think he's really good.

618
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.140
But it turns out he's not really that important, is he?

619
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:23.880
And he's just there.

620
00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:28.680
He's very 2nd tier in so far as it's just like, yeah, no, I'm sick

621
00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:30.240
of being foiled by the doctor.

622
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:34.380
I'm just gonna sort of kill myself now and take the doctor with

623
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:34.619
me.

624
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:39.599
And that's thwarted in like all of, you know, 2 minutes anyway.

625
00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:43.200
But, you know, but is he from like the future or is, like, because

626
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:47.640
like, is he with Bastra and Jenny and Strax in their conference

627
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.200
call or is it just the Whispermen?

628
00:31:49.259 --> 00:31:50.519
He only turns up later, doesn't he?

629
00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:54.299
Yeah, he turns up on Transalore and I guess this is where he

630
00:31:54.299 --> 00:31:54.779
dies.

631
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:59.400
And so it means that Pat Troughton has now thwarted him twice and

632
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:04.500
then he obviously gets Miss Kislett or whatever and does something

633
00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:06.599
in the 21st century as well.

634
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:10.259
I mean, he is just that snow, isn't he?

635
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.299
Isn't he just the psychic snow?

636
00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:18.000
interacting with Dr. Simeon and creating a weird version of Dr

637
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:18.539
Simeon?

638
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:23.519
Well, effectively, it's Dr. Simeon's childhood angst creating the

639
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.200
great intelligent that sort of feeds on it.

640
00:32:25.259 --> 00:32:25.980
I mean, who knows?

641
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.940
Maybe, you know, the great intelligence dropping into the doctor's

642
00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:32.819
timeline is why the abominable snowman and the web of fear happen

643
00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:36.000
at all. you know, rather than, it's like that, that's, that's

644
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.720
that's.

645
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:37.859
Yeah, rather than the other way around.

646
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.839
Although he does give the great intelligence the idea of attacking

647
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:45.420
the underground, I think, inadvertently by giving him that

648
00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:50.519
lunchbox in the snowman, which has the map of the underground on

649
00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:50.700
it.

650
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.660
I really like it because again, the great intelligence has no

651
00:32:54.660 --> 00:33:00.119
backstory in the classic era, and Moffatt gives it a backstory

652
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:05.460
that is every bit as weird and mysterious as no backstory at all.

653
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:05.940
Yes.

654
00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:09.779
Like, he's not, uh, you know, he's not a disembodied alien from

655
00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:10.859
the planet Zolve or anything.

656
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:11.400
Yes, exactly.

657
00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:12.420
It's, yeah.

658
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:13.500
I think it's handled.

659
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:14.460
Well, I really like the way it's done.

660
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.759
I don't think it detracts from the original by explaining too

661
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.059
much.

662
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.940
It just, you know, provides a nice little origin story.

663
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.960
And as I sort of said, you could kind of argue that the great

664
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:28.140
intelligence creates itself by dropping into the doctor's timeline

665
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:31.500
and whether it's when it's chasing Clara or when Clara's chasing

666
00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:32.940
you know, it does go back to Victoria, London.

667
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.680
It does go back to the 1960s whenever it is.

668
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:38.460
So it kind of, it never did actually get created.

669
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:40.680
It's just constantly going round and round, if you know what I

670
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:40.859
mean.

671
00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:42.119
In time.

672
00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:46.980
Yeah, well, something this story establishes is time travel is

673
00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:47.819
possible in dreams.

674
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:48.480
Yeah.

675
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.160
And if you only have intelligence.

676
00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:54.299
If you are only mental energy, then time travel, I think, is

677
00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:55.440
possible for you as well.

678
00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:58.740
So, as you say, Simon, the great intelligence probably has no

679
00:33:58.740 --> 00:33:59.880
beginning and no ending.

680
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:01.440
It simply is.

681
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:05.400
Something watching this time, I kind of, I kind of went, you know

682
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:07.920
when he rips his face off and disappears and another whisper man

683
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:09.659
steps up, I kind of went, well, what's that then?

684
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:15.840
But at the same time, it's like, well, in the 2 Trouton stories

685
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.760
he's basically making golems.

686
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:18.480
Yeah.

687
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:22.800
You know, so the whisper men are just, they're just golem. just 18

688
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:24.900
inhabit any one of them because he's intelligence.

689
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:25.679
Yeah exactly.

690
00:34:25.739 --> 00:34:27.960
As for Richard E. Grant phoning it in.

691
00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:31.440
I've heard that accusation with Scream at the Shalka as well.

692
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:35.099
But I think it's actually just Richard E. Grant's acting style in

693
00:34:35.099 --> 00:34:37.019
that facially.

694
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:38.219
He doesn't tend to do much.

695
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:40.260
It's all in the voice and the intensity.

696
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:41.039
Yeah.

697
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:43.739
And it's like, even if you look at something, I think the 1st

698
00:34:43.739 --> 00:34:47.159
thing I ever saw in was a drama called Jack and Sarah, where he

699
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:49.199
was a recently bereaved single father.

700
00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:53.579
And even there, and you know, that was a very emotional film.

701
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:58.380
Facially, it's all under control except for the eyes and the

702
00:34:58.380 --> 00:34:58.619
voice.

703
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:00.239
Maybe you're right.

704
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.699
And I, that's how I see this performance.

705
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:04.800
You know, when he's saying things like, you know, the doctor will

706
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:08.820
have many names, the storm, the valiard, again, dear listener.

707
00:35:11.579 --> 00:35:14.760
No, I agree with you, Brendan, that was a great moment.

708
00:35:14.820 --> 00:35:15.360
Yeah.

709
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.019
And but it's just like the intense, the intensity in his voice is

710
00:35:19.019 --> 00:35:21.360
kind of, I'm doing the universe a favour.

711
00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:22.559
Look at all these grades.

712
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.539
And a villain is always more interesting when it's not just, ha ha

713
00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:30.059
ha, you defeated me, so I'm going to jump into your timeline and

714
00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:30.420
kill you.

715
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.820
He's actually like no, I've got a point here.

716
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:36.059
Um, but I'm glad that the plot doesn't labour that.

717
00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:39.360
Yeah, because you've got him saying he killed all these people and

718
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:41.820
you've got all the doctor's friends saying, well, actually, mate

719
00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:44.880
he's done all this good, and I'm saying that, and I'm dead, says

720
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:45.360
River.

721
00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:48.539
I mean, yeah, I don't buy the Richard E. Grant phoning it in

722
00:35:48.539 --> 00:35:49.079
thing.

723
00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:53.820
I think that his acting style and a lot of stuff is he throws

724
00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:54.539
lines away.

725
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.500
The performance is always very, very small and subtle and and

726
00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:03.300
realistic's not quite the right word, but it's just the lines are

727
00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:06.420
said as if he's just thought of them rather than them being

728
00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:06.960
performed.

729
00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:10.500
Yeah, I think it works really well for the great intelligence

730
00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:12.719
because the great intelligence is a bit nothing, really.

731
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:16.500
I mean, it hasn't had lots of dialogue or anything before in the

732
00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:18.059
60s, does it?

733
00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:19.440
Am I misremembering?

734
00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:20.699
No, it's just Web of Fear 6, really.

735
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:22.559
Yeah, yeah.

736
00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:24.059
Oh, and Samovar, yes.

737
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:24.900
Samovar.

738
00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:30.480
You know, why does he go after an old friend of the doctors?

739
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:33.960
Ah, abominable snowmen.

740
00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:34.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

741
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:35.940
No, it all works.

742
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:37.320
They'll be able to something there, somewhere?

743
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:37.860
Yeah, see?

744
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:38.760
Yeah.

745
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:43.739
And of course, you know, it's obviously, is this the point at

746
00:36:43.739 --> 00:36:47.699
which they know that they have web of fear back, but haven't

747
00:36:47.699 --> 00:36:48.420
announced it yet?

748
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.659
Well, that's what we discussed during the snowman.

749
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:55.260
And we kind of thought that, yes.

750
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.059
They know, I mean, they all know.

751
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:57.960
I mean, Moffatt knows.

752
00:36:58.019 --> 00:36:59.280
Yeah, yeah.

753
00:36:59.340 --> 00:36:59.760
Yeah.

754
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:00.179
Yeah.

755
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.659
And so you just bring the great intelligence back so that this is

756
00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:07.380
an old adventure with the great intelligence in it, which is sort

757
00:37:07.380 --> 00:37:09.539
of being released for the 1st time in forever.

758
00:37:09.659 --> 00:37:13.559
I will say that the usage of the great intelligence in this season

759
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:17.579
brings to light a really weird thing.

760
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:20.820
A friend of the podcast, Andy Frankham, who is the head of the

761
00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:25.079
Lethbridge Stewart novels, is partially responsible for managing

762
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:28.920
the characters and creations of the Hazman and Lincoln.

763
00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:29.280
Right.

764
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:34.199
And whenever the BBC used the Great Intelligence and the Brigadier

765
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:38.159
70% of the time, 90% of the time, they don't credit Hazman Lincoln

766
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:43.860
until Andy or I think it's um Hannah Hazman is the co-manager

767
00:37:43.860 --> 00:37:47.940
until they contact the BBC and say, guys, I don't know if they get

768
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:50.039
paid or get paid very much, the estate.

769
00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:53.039
But it's just like, the end of this episode has Santarans created

770
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:53.820
by Robert Holmes.

771
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:55.800
Silurian's created by Malcolm Hulk.

772
00:37:55.860 --> 00:37:59.219
And it's like, but you've got the great intelligence there, which

773
00:37:59.219 --> 00:38:01.079
is not a BBC creation.

774
00:38:01.139 --> 00:38:06.360
It's, it's just, it's very strange that the creations of these 2

775
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:13.139
writers, which, you know, people who look back at the Trout Nearer

776
00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:15.599
you know, when there were kids watching it, it was going out and

777
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.880
they're like, oh my god, you know, the yeti stories, that's where

778
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:19.860
it was at. and that's where the brigadier came from.

779
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:23.340
So it's like there's 2 iconic parts of Doctor Who's history and

780
00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:26.460
the BBC's just like, oh, you know, we'll credit Terry Nation and

781
00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:29.159
we'll credit Kit Pedler and Jerry Davis said, we'll credit Brian

782
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:32.340
Hales when the ice Warriors turn up, but they just forget that

783
00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:33.599
Hazman and Lincoln exists.

784
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:36.179
And it's kind of like the whole feud with the dominators was ages

785
00:38:36.179 --> 00:38:36.480
ago.

786
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:40.500
And almost everyone involved is dead, you know, get over it.

787
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:42.480
It's just an odd thing.

788
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:43.619
Yeah.

789
00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:00.900
We resolve the Great Intelligent Arc, and then Clara's just an

790
00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:01.500
ordinary girl.

791
00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:06.239
She said so all along, and she, of course, puts herself into the

792
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:10.860
doctor's timeline to save him, and then we go in a different

793
00:39:10.860 --> 00:39:13.980
direction, you know, like her story is done.

794
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:17.400
The intelligence story is done, but the doctor story is far from

795
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:17.639
done.

796
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:23.639
Yeah, and I think, you know, I think that that's a pretty good

797
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:28.260
resolution of the mystery and I think it's the right time to do

798
00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:33.179
that and clear the decks for her to just be the doctor's companion

799
00:39:33.179 --> 00:39:36.599
because she plays an absolutely crucial role in Day of the

800
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:37.260
Doctor.

801
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:38.519
She's terribly important.

802
00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:43.440
And just seeing them get back together at the beginning of day of

803
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:44.699
the doctor is wonderful.

804
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:45.780
Like, it's so great.

805
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:50.699
And she has, I think, this season, and we've said this before

806
00:39:50.699 --> 00:39:57.300
suffered enormously from the arc and from recording episodes out

807
00:39:57.300 --> 00:39:57.900
of order.

808
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:02.039
There's no real consistency to the way the character is written.

809
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:05.219
It's all kind of tied together because you've got Jenna's

810
00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:08.460
performance, but the character isn't really working at this

811
00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:08.760
point.

812
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:12.780
And so retooling the character, giving her some backstory, all of

813
00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:14.639
that sort of thing that's going to happen over the next few

814
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:15.420
episodes.

815
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.260
I think ends up working really quite well.

816
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:20.940
I think you're really right.

817
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.940
The Cold War and the High, the characters are nothingness.

818
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.039
And then last week's Nightmare in Silver.

819
00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:27.539
It's like she's next year's character.

820
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.119
She's a completely different character virtually, I think, every

821
00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:31.619
other episode she's in this year.

822
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:34.260
I think she's good in Crimson Horror.

823
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.780
I think which is filmed quite late.

824
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.820
Yeah, yeah, it's filmed after this.

825
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.019
Terrible hair.

826
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:41.760
Terrible.

827
00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:42.599
I'm sorry.

828
00:40:42.659 --> 00:40:47.039
Just one thing of that story that really gets to me is the bun on

829
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:48.239
top of her head. just hate it.

830
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:51.659
Oh, I tell you what, I was so relieved when she came back into the

831
00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:54.960
present day at the end of that episode and she had her own hair

832
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.980
back, but I've only just realised why I felt like that.

833
00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:04.920
I have to say, I didn't know that, you know, I've never read up

834
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.860
much about the production of the new era, and so I didn't know

835
00:41:07.860 --> 00:41:11.699
that this particular block was filmed so totally out of sequence.

836
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:16.260
And I wasn't spotsing it particularly, maybe because I just

837
00:41:16.260 --> 00:41:20.219
forgive not very much companion characterisation as, well, that's

838
00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:23.940
Doctor Who. that's, you know, that's, that's just what we get

839
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:27.420
sometimes, but I, I, I wonder how much you're kind of seeing it

840
00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:30.300
because, you know, how, how out of order it's recorded.

841
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.800
Like the way, you know, I can see how in Fort Doomsday, doctor has

842
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.619
no character at all because I know that that was shot first. you

843
00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:38.039
know what I mean?

844
00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:38.880
Yeah.

845
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.739
No, I agree with you, Simon.

846
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.199
I certainly went into this back home of the season knowing when

847
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:45.599
things were shot and it kind of went, oh, great character, great

848
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:46.019
character.

849
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:47.219
Oh nothingness, nothingness.

850
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:50.340
So I was sort of looking out for it, you know, in various episodes

851
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:55.679
to see to what extent in my mind at least, you know, where that

852
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:56.460
character was at.

853
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:57.659
Yeah.

854
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.800
But I mean, Simon's right in the sense that in the classic era

855
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.860
sometimes you would have a like one paragraph description of who

856
00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:06.059
the character is or whatever.

857
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:08.519
She's a computer programmer from Peace Potty.

858
00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:09.179
Yes, she knew.

859
00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:13.739
But basically it's just the actor's performance that ties it all

860
00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:16.739
together and everyone's just written as a companion.

861
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.460
And I think that the new series improves upon that by having

862
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:24.539
actual characters in the Tartars who have their own personalities

863
00:42:24.539 --> 00:42:25.380
and things like that.

864
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:29.940
But this does seem like a kind of throwback, in a way.

865
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:30.659
Totally.

866
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:33.659
And I guess the one thing that at the time disappointed me was the

867
00:42:33.659 --> 00:42:38.039
fact that I actually wanted her to be something more than just, I'm

868
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:38.880
just an ordinary girl.

869
00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:41.340
I actually thought it was building up to something big

870
00:42:41.340 --> 00:42:41.880
revelation.

871
00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:45.119
But that would have been just NAF, right?

872
00:42:45.179 --> 00:42:49.739
So coming back to it, I actually like it a lot more now and think

873
00:42:49.739 --> 00:42:51.300
yeah, you made the right decisions.

874
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.360
That's why once again, dear list is, I'm not sure enough.

875
00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:58.320
Look, I'm 100% on the fact that it's the right decision that she

876
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.599
is actually just an ordinary person, but what makes her

877
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.119
extraordinary is that she makes the decision to go into the

878
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:07.500
doctor's timeline to save him and therefore that creates all these

879
00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:10.619
paradoxes and her appearing all throughout his history.

880
00:43:10.739 --> 00:43:13.380
That's more interesting because it's a normal person who's done

881
00:43:13.380 --> 00:43:13.619
this.

882
00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:18.239
A regular person has made this leap and done this rather than she

883
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:22.260
was some magical thing and she was actually a space alien that was

884
00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:25.679
you know, given to her father via leaf or whatever it was. you

885
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:26.039
know what I mean?

886
00:43:26.099 --> 00:43:29.219
Like, it's much more interesting that she's much more relatable as

887
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:29.579
a result.

888
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:31.260
Exactly.

889
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:37.500
And I think also because the character is written thinly, and I'm

890
00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:39.300
not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing.

891
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.679
Because the character is written thinly, more people in the

892
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.219
audience can imagine themselves as that character.

893
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:50.639
So they can imagine that they're the normal person.

894
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:54.719
And it's like, this is Doctor Who's 50th year and this story is

895
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.780
asking the question, would you split yourself throughout the

896
00:43:57.780 --> 00:44:00.900
doctor's history to save the doctor as a fan, as a viewer.

897
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.260
And I can imagine there are, there are a lot of children at home

898
00:44:04.260 --> 00:44:10.019
watching that and realising how much they empathise with Clara

899
00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:12.900
without even realising necessarily that that's the reason.

900
00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:16.980
Part of the reason I love Clara in this season, and Nathan alluded

901
00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:19.019
to it earlier, and I said it back on Bells of St.

902
00:44:19.019 --> 00:44:19.380
John.

903
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.059
She's Mel.

904
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:25.500
Because she is a fantastic actress who has gone on to great

905
00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:29.940
accolades like Bonnie Langford with hardly any character on paper

906
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:33.360
and yet when she is on screen as the character.

907
00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:37.500
She is just magnetic and fun to watch and fun to be around.

908
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:40.199
But if this had been her last story.

909
00:44:40.260 --> 00:44:44.280
It gets a far more satisfying and reasonable and understandable

910
00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.980
exit going out of the show.

911
00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:52.320
And part of Mel being so thinly written is that when Mel arrives

912
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.440
on the scene, she already instinctively trusts the doctor and he

913
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:59.639
instinctively trusts her, so we get all that out of the way and we

914
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:01.860
have that right from the bells of St.

915
00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:02.219
John.

916
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:05.400
Now, not necessarily from Clara, but, you know, the doctor sitting

917
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.760
out on the driveway in front of the Tartars, and she's like, am I

918
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:09.119
safe now?

919
00:45:09.179 --> 00:45:11.099
And he's like, yes, and you always will be.

920
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.579
Are you just going to sit there and keep an eye on me.

921
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:15.239
Yes, I am.

922
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:17.280
It's just it's a really sweet.

923
00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:20.940
And the funny thing is, Matt then starts to distrust her while she

924
00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:24.179
is building her trust in him until they hit a crux point.

925
00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:30.420
And the last 3 episodes after journey to the centre of the TARDIS

926
00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:34.920
they are a total team with complete faith in one another.

927
00:45:34.980 --> 00:45:40.679
And that is exemplified in that last bit where he's saying, no

928
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:42.960
don't go in there, don't go in there, and she's just asking more

929
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:45.780
and more questions of, but if I do, this happens, and he's like

930
00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:46.500
yes, but don't.

931
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:47.940
But if I do, this happens.

932
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:48.659
Yes, but don't.

933
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:53.400
And then Rivers telling her not to go in there and she's basically

934
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.840
like, well, now I know it's a good idea.

935
00:45:56.519 --> 00:46:01.260
And I also think this year, this back and off of this season is

936
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:03.300
when Matt's character is the most thinly written.

937
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:06.420
And we talked about it with rings of Akatan, like, yeah, that's

938
00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:09.239
not a speech for the script. that speech for Matt Smith, because

939
00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:11.039
you know Matt Smith can deliver that speech.

940
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:16.440
And I think just the chemistry of Matt and Jenna together gets us

941
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:18.360
over the line of the thin character writing.

942
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:19.019
Yeah.

943
00:46:19.019 --> 00:46:19.500
Yeah.

944
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:22.559
It was a bit of a problem last week too, with the doctor and Mr

945
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:26.340
Clever, where it was just like, let's give Matt a big thing to

946
00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:26.940
perform.

947
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:31.440
And it doesn't work quite as well as the approach of just giving

948
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.159
him normal things.

949
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:35.820
Yeah, and I think also he was stuck in a bit of a Ken Dodd

950
00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:37.260
situation of going, they'll tell me.

951
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.460
They'll tell me if it's too much.

952
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:39.840
Yep.

953
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:41.280
It never happened.

954
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:52.079
So let's talk about the final scene then.

955
00:46:52.139 --> 00:47:00.300
So somehow she's still alive and the doctor finds her in this

956
00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:04.559
weird space, that's his timeline, and all I could think of was

957
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:10.800
like the end of Rocky Horror, you know, where Brad and Janet are

958
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:14.639
crawling around on their hands and knees in that sort of smoke, you

959
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:16.679
know, the with the dry ice all over the floor.

960
00:47:16.739 --> 00:47:18.119
It's all that sort of thing.

961
00:47:18.179 --> 00:47:19.559
Where does she land?

962
00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:21.780
In the doctor's timeline.

963
00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:24.659
Yeah, I know, I know, like whatever.

964
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.480
It's that bit in the invisible enemy when they're in the doctor's

965
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:27.840
brain.

966
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:30.719
I don't have to say, I'm going...

967
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:32.280
But without the nucleus of the swamp.

968
00:47:33.420 --> 00:47:37.199
But it's in a place which is just full of the doctor, I guess.

969
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:42.420
And so we get a way of introducing John Hurt's character.

970
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:45.960
Lots of rushing coats past.

971
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:47.039
Yeah, yeah.

972
00:47:47.099 --> 00:47:50.820
A particularly, particularly chunky William Hartnall.

973
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.239
Yeah.

974
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:53.579
Like if you freeze frame it.

975
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.440
Which you obviously did.

976
00:47:55.860 --> 00:48:00.360
And, you know, when I say junkie, I kind of mean it as a

977
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:00.780
compliment.

978
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:01.860
Like he looks like a rugby player.

979
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.320
Well, much like the original.

980
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:09.119
I mean, if he brains you with a rock, you'll know about it. another

981
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:10.260
FTE revelation.

982
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.619
Me liking rugby players.

983
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:14.820
Everyone does that.

984
00:48:14.820 --> 00:48:16.920
No, I thought Chunky William Hartnell.

985
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:17.280
Sorry.

986
00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:21.420
I'm having too much title.

987
00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:23.880
I'm having too much medication.

988
00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:24.119
Sorry.

989
00:48:24.659 --> 00:48:28.440
And I guess this is another reinterpretation thing.

990
00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:32.099
So earlier on, it was like, the doctor has a secret.

991
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:37.139
He will take to his grave. and it has been discovered and it

992
00:48:37.139 --> 00:48:38.760
refers to the grave, right?

993
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:43.800
And here we've been sitting with the title, the name of the doctor

994
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:49.199
and it becomes a plot point in so far as the doctor needs to say

995
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:54.960
his name to open his tomb, so everyone can go in, and River has

996
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:58.019
somehow found out the doctor's name.

997
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:03.719
Although I don't think he really told her at the wedding.

998
00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:05.340
Well, when he said he told her.

999
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:07.380
He was actually, look at my eye.

1000
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:08.940
Look, I've got a little me in there.

1001
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:13.980
But, you know, maybe he then said, oh, and by the way, I'm Greg.

1002
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:14.760
Gordon.

1003
00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:15.300
Yeah.

1004
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:17.880
Um, so...

1005
00:49:17.940 --> 00:49:21.480
But the name of the doctor, really kind of means the title of the

1006
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:21.840
doctor.

1007
00:49:21.900 --> 00:49:26.460
The name of the doctor, the name that he's given himself, not his

1008
00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:28.380
birth name or anything like that.

1009
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.260
But the name that he gave himself because of who he is.

1010
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:32.340
He's the doctor.

1011
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:34.019
He makes people better.

1012
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:43.260
And so this is, I guess, a way of introducing the idea of the war

1013
00:49:43.260 --> 00:49:49.139
doctor because that's going to be what the day of the doctor is

1014
00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:49.380
about.

1015
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:51.420
Yeah.

1016
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:55.019
And these scenes were filmed at the same time as Day of the

1017
00:49:55.019 --> 00:49:55.440
Doctor.

1018
00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:58.679
So the shooting script for the name of the doctor ended with

1019
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.179
goodbye, sweetie.

1020
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:01.139
Oh, okay.

1021
00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:03.420
And that was the last bit, and they're like, we know we have to

1022
00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:07.320
film this later because whoever we're getting at that time, they

1023
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:09.420
didn't know they were getting John Hurst, like whoever we're

1024
00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:11.460
getting will be filmed with name of the doctor.

1025
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:14.820
And I think Stephen Moffat was still holding out hope for Chris or

1026
00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:15.119
Paul.

1027
00:50:15.179 --> 00:50:15.780
Right.

1028
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:16.320
Right.

1029
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:17.639
For Paul?

1030
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:18.119
Paul.

1031
00:50:18.179 --> 00:50:24.300
Yeah, because when Chris said no, he did try to get Paul and the

1032
00:50:24.300 --> 00:50:26.219
BBC kind of said, oh, no.

1033
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:27.840
Well, I thought that was the case.

1034
00:50:27.900 --> 00:50:29.039
I thought it wasn't Paul's decisions.

1035
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:31.380
I thought they just went, no, the BBC said, right?

1036
00:50:31.380 --> 00:50:34.980
Because there's 2 schools of thought, and they're not necessarily

1037
00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:36.059
mutually exclusive.

1038
00:50:36.059 --> 00:50:40.079
Either. he wasn't the doctor for long enough in the public eye to

1039
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:43.440
be recognisable or unlike John Hurt.

1040
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:46.139
But here's the thing.

1041
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:46.800
Here's the thing.

1042
00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:50.579
Or they viewed the TV movie as a failure and wouldn't link it to

1043
00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:50.760
that.

1044
00:50:50.820 --> 00:50:53.639
So Moffatt was just like, well, Chris won't do it.

1045
00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:56.699
What if I get a big name actor who's never been the doctor

1046
00:50:56.699 --> 00:50:56.940
before?

1047
00:50:56.940 --> 00:50:58.800
And they're like, well, it depends how big the name is.

1048
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:02.219
They managed to get John Hurt and the BBC are like, okay.

1049
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:05.639
I mean, he played a CGI dragon in Merlin.

1050
00:51:05.699 --> 00:51:07.019
He's not that big a cow.

1051
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:07.679
Exactly.

1052
00:51:07.739 --> 00:51:11.280
I guess he's I mean, he's big, but not that big.

1053
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:12.780
Like, is it kind of big, you know?

1054
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:15.179
Yeah, but that's how we get a knight of the doctor.

1055
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:18.360
It was a consolation to Paul because Stephen had been talking to

1056
00:51:18.360 --> 00:51:20.639
him and then had to come to him and say the BBC don't want you.

1057
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:21.059
Right.

1058
00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:24.659
Which, you know, she's pretty a pretty horrible thing to have to

1059
00:51:24.659 --> 00:51:27.599
say to an actor and, you know, kudos to Paul for them turning

1060
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:29.460
around and saying, yeah, fine, I'll come in and do a 7 minute

1061
00:51:29.460 --> 00:51:30.179
thing on the website.

1062
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:31.199
Yeah, brilliant.

1063
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:34.800
So what was your feeling at the time?

1064
00:51:34.860 --> 00:51:38.579
when he turns around and says introduced and it says introducing

1065
00:51:38.579 --> 00:51:39.659
John Hurt as the doctor.

1066
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:41.280
I think it's magnificent.

1067
00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:43.500
I think it's an absolutely incredible moment.

1068
00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:46.679
And it is kind of funny because normally an introducing credit

1069
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:49.440
means it's their 1st go at anything, isn't it?

1070
00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:52.380
Yes, this is their film debut. their TV debut, yeah.

1071
00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:55.619
But, I mean, this is John Hurt's Doctor Who debut.

1072
00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:59.579
I think it's an amazing moment and it is a moment where the

1073
00:51:59.579 --> 00:52:04.559
credits kind of appear in the show where the show itself is kind

1074
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.440
of telling us what it's doing now with this actor.

1075
00:52:07.500 --> 00:52:11.099
And if the show is telling us that that's really the doctor, then

1076
00:52:11.099 --> 00:52:12.599
we kind of have to believe it.

1077
00:52:12.659 --> 00:52:15.480
You know, the things that are said in the in the credits are

1078
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:16.019
real.

1079
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:18.719
It was so +and wonderful.

1080
00:52:18.780 --> 00:52:22.019
Now, I have to say something, child, just before you just before

1081
00:52:22.019 --> 00:52:25.500
you start talking to, I have to say, I have to fill it in for the

1082
00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:31.079
listener that because I'm doing this remotely, I'm seeing my 3 co

1083
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.820
hosts on the sofa in a row.

1084
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:37.139
Nathan is leaning forward and as Nathan was saying that Todd was

1085
00:52:37.139 --> 00:52:39.360
making so many faces and shaking his head.

1086
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:45.659
So I now want to hear what was going on in your brain, Todd.

1087
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.519
It was a beautiful visual.

1088
00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:52.079
It was the most beautiful visual.

1089
00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:55.920
I love it.

1090
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:56.880
Wow.

1091
00:52:56.940 --> 00:52:59.400
And I still don't particularly like it.

1092
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.340
Who is John Hurt?

1093
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:04.559
That's what went in my head.

1094
00:53:04.619 --> 00:53:08.940
Like, I heard the name, obviously, in the British public and other

1095
00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:09.239
people.

1096
00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:12.960
He is much bigger actor than what I had ever known.

1097
00:53:13.019 --> 00:53:15.659
I had only ever known that he was in, what, Alien?

1098
00:53:15.780 --> 00:53:16.139
Yeah.

1099
00:53:16.139 --> 00:53:19.199
And that's, and I, and I, sue me.

1100
00:53:19.260 --> 00:53:20.880
I've never seen that movie, right?

1101
00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:25.559
And so it was just sort of like, and the whole idea, I mean, we'd

1102
00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.559
heard rumours that, you know, Eccleston's not doing it coming up

1103
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:31.679
with this other incarnation, and I was just like, oh, yeah, right

1104
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:31.920
really.

1105
00:53:31.980 --> 00:53:35.699
So it is a moment, which I do now enjoy, right?

1106
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.860
Because I think having obviously seen...

1107
00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:38.579
Todd experience.

1108
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:42.179
He's actually really good, obviously.

1109
00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:45.659
And I actually think...

1110
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:49.559
Well, I'll talk more of it at another time, but the getting around

1111
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:50.880
Eccleston is actually very clever.

1112
00:53:50.940 --> 00:53:54.780
But I still go, oh, John Hurt?

1113
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:55.199
Who?

1114
00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:58.199
I'm sorry, I just wanted...

1115
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:01.079
I mean, I mean, I'm not going to say, oh, give me Tom Cruise or

1116
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:01.860
something like that.

1117
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:02.639
Do you know what I mean?

1118
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:03.960
But I'm just saying...

1119
00:54:05.460 --> 00:54:11.519
I mean, I don't think I don't think anyone could have probably

1120
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:12.900
impressed me, really.

1121
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.800
I mean, I don't know.

1122
00:54:13.860 --> 00:54:18.059
I mean, who would you expect, you know, but just from saying, John

1123
00:54:18.059 --> 00:54:18.420
Hurt?

1124
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:20.340
Is that John going, oh, what?

1125
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:24.239
I will say, Nathan, one day Aunt Malik is going to turn up and

1126
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:25.139
punch you in the face.

1127
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:30.599
But Nathan, I am really, really touched that you just find so much

1128
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:34.800
joy. in that like at the time and now and forever.

1129
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:37.440
Like your positivity is absolutely wonderful.

1130
00:54:37.500 --> 00:54:42.780
And, you know, I'm not saying that I missed negative, but, you

1131
00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:43.739
know, I do like it.

1132
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:44.940
I do like it.

1133
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:49.800
And it does throw a punch, but I mean, I was familiar with John

1134
00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:53.699
Hurt from, you know, I Claudius and things like that, and I knew

1135
00:54:53.699 --> 00:54:56.400
him as a great British character actor.

1136
00:54:56.460 --> 00:55:00.000
When he turns around, it's like, well, A, finally, John Hurts in

1137
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.440
Doctor Who, which is great.

1138
00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:05.219
He is I wasn't trying to diminish him by suggesting he wasn't that

1139
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:06.300
big before.

1140
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:09.480
What I meant was he's not exactly a Hollywood name.

1141
00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:10.500
He's not a movie star.

1142
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.440
He's not Tom Cruise, as you just said, Todd. not someone mega

1143
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:13.980
big.

1144
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:18.239
But I was so delighted that it was someone who I saw as a quality

1145
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:19.019
actor.

1146
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:23.099
And given that he he is quite stagey in his performance.

1147
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:25.559
Like, you know, he's got the whole RSC thing going on in

1148
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:29.039
deliveries, which always, for me, suits the Doctor Who style.

1149
00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:31.920
It's harking back to those, you know, BBC period dramas.

1150
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:35.159
But it was just that moment where it was like, yes, they've

1151
00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:35.639
actually done this.

1152
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:37.679
They've actually thought, you know, because the program was off

1153
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:41.699
the air for that block of time, there was no completely clean

1154
00:55:41.699 --> 00:55:45.179
thing between McGann and Eccleston, anything might have happened

1155
00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:48.000
in that period, you know, numbering the doctors or something that

1156
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:48.960
we as fans do.

1157
00:55:49.019 --> 00:55:52.739
I think it was an opportunity that there's a gap there that you

1158
00:55:52.739 --> 00:55:53.880
could do something like this.

1159
00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:58.559
And no, I thought it was a great way of having a kind of a one-off

1160
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:01.739
casting for the doctor to do that.

1161
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:04.800
And, you know, my jaw hit the hit the floor when he turned around

1162
00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:05.219
was great.

1163
00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:08.820
He's not credited as the war doctor in this, is he?

1164
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:12.360
No, in the time of the doctor, the little McGann thing.

1165
00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:14.340
He's credited as the wool doctor.

1166
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:15.840
Oh, is that where that comes from?

1167
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:16.619
Right, right.

1168
00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:17.820
Yeah.

1169
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:20.460
Yeah, he is just the doctor in this.

1170
00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:21.780
And it's kind of weird.

1171
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:23.639
Merchandise that appears around this time.

1172
00:56:23.699 --> 00:56:26.639
I think his action figure credits him as the other doctor.

1173
00:56:26.699 --> 00:56:30.780
So it looks like right up until November.

1174
00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:33.840
There's decisions being made of what do we call him?

1175
00:56:33.900 --> 00:56:36.480
I'm with you, Simon, in that.

1176
00:56:36.539 --> 00:56:41.219
I was familiar with his work and it was kind of like he turns

1177
00:56:41.219 --> 00:56:46.679
around and my jaw half dropped introducing John Hurt as the doctor

1178
00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:49.260
that's when it dropped. that's what I mean.

1179
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.179
Yes, that's the full drop is as doctor.

1180
00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:52.139
That's what I'm talking about.

1181
00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:53.519
John Hurt is great.

1182
00:56:53.579 --> 00:56:55.800
Yeah, but not, you know, 0 my God, John Hurt.

1183
00:56:56.099 --> 00:56:58.800
Yeah, but is that blurring of the credits with the actual

1184
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:01.619
television show, which I think I have a problem with?

1185
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.559
That's the sort of thing I like where the show reminds you that

1186
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:05.760
it's a television show.

1187
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:10.260
And so those levels, kind of, interplay with one another.

1188
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:13.019
And I'm always kind of a big fan of that.

1189
00:57:13.019 --> 00:57:16.980
And I'm not that invested in the show creating a coherent world.

1190
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:19.920
And I know for a fact that Stephen Moffatt isn't either.

1191
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.780
Otherwise he wouldn't have written all of those things.

1192
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:25.619
And look, if you want to create a coherent world, at some point

1193
00:57:25.619 --> 00:57:28.860
that doctor, because we're in the doctor's brain, don't forget, at

1194
00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:31.619
some point that doctor has visited London and someone said, you

1195
00:57:31.619 --> 00:57:33.599
look like that bloke from Alien, John Hurst.

1196
00:57:33.659 --> 00:57:35.400
So he's like, in the doctor's mind.

1197
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:37.800
He's like, I'm John Hurt as the doctor.

1198
00:57:37.860 --> 00:57:38.460
Hi.

1199
00:57:38.460 --> 00:57:39.179
He's diagetic.

1200
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:40.199
It's diagetic.

1201
00:57:40.260 --> 00:57:45.719
Both Matt and Jenna conceive that writing next to his head when he

1202
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:46.139
turns around.

1203
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:49.500
So, you know, later on when Jenna's like, so who was that?

1204
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.079
She's asking, is he the doctor or is he John Hurt?

1205
00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:54.780
Because I thought John Hurt was an actor and he got his stomach

1206
00:57:54.780 --> 00:57:57.300
exploded and then he got his stomach exploded again in that Mel

1207
00:57:57.300 --> 00:57:58.079
Brooks movie?

1208
00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:00.179
And then he was Winston.

1209
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:01.619
Yeah, 1994.

1210
00:58:01.619 --> 00:58:02.699
Yeah, in 1994.

1211
00:58:02.820 --> 00:58:09.119
The concept of bringing in an extra doctor was described to me by

1212
00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:12.300
someone who at the time before it happened, who this is this

1213
00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:15.360
person must have been aware of what it was, but it was described

1214
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:19.380
to him as the most misbegotten idea in the history of Doctor Who.

1215
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:22.800
And that's an idea that I completely reject, I have to say.

1216
00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:24.659
I reject it too.

1217
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:25.260
I just want to say that.

1218
00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:27.000
I think it's actually a very clever idea.

1219
00:58:27.059 --> 00:58:27.900
Yeah.

1220
00:58:27.900 --> 00:58:32.159
And, you know, it's been done again and we will discuss that more

1221
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:33.900
in like 5 years time.

1222
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:35.460
In due course.

1223
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:39.960
But when it is done again, it is, again, one of the best ideas

1224
00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:41.039
that era does.

1225
00:58:41.099 --> 00:58:41.880
Yeah.

1226
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:42.599
You know.

1227
00:58:42.659 --> 00:58:45.599
It's never a bad idea to do new things with the character so long

1228
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:47.519
as you're adding mystery and not taking it away.

1229
00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:48.239
Yeah.

1230
00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:52.079
And I think in both instances, now, now, and in the future with a

1231
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:52.800
timeless child.

1232
00:58:52.860 --> 00:58:57.960
It does it in a way which doesn't require you to completely have

1233
00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:00.539
to retcon the entire program.

1234
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:03.900
Given the fact that, you know, he says that, you know, this guy is

1235
00:59:03.900 --> 00:59:06.119
not really the doctor because he doesn't, he's not, doesn't take

1236
00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:08.460
on the name of the doctor because he doesn't deserve it because he

1237
00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:09.480
did this terrible thing, right?

1238
00:59:09.539 --> 00:59:13.920
So I don't, in my brain, I do not think of him as the doctor.

1239
00:59:13.980 --> 00:59:17.880
And likewise, there's whatever happens, you know, Pre Hartnell is

1240
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.280
kind of like, well, that's sort of like almost like a different

1241
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:21.420
whole different cycle of life.

1242
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:26.039
So you can still have, you can still have the series up to this

1243
00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:30.179
point without it being demolished by this new revelation.

1244
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:59.280
Well, then, listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1245
00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:02.820
We'll be back next week to wrap up the last two years in our

1246
01:00:02.820 --> 01:00:04.500
Series 7 retrospective.

1247
01:00:04.739 --> 01:00:08.639
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1248
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:11.159
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1249
01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:16.380
at FDE podcast on Twitter and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1250
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:19.619
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger

1251
01:00:19.619 --> 01:00:24.000
Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek

1252
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:24.480
project.

1253
01:00:24.659 --> 01:00:28.320
Until next time, remember that conference calls are only

1254
01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:31.380
productive and enjoyable if you get someone to bludgeon you

1255
01:00:31.380 --> 01:00:32.820
unconscious beforehand.

1256
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:35.280
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1257
01:00:35.340 --> 01:00:36.300
Good night.

1258
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:37.260
See you soon.

1259
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:38.039
Bye bye.

1260
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:46.500
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan

1261
01:00:46.500 --> 01:00:48.360
Bottomley, Brandon Jones and Simon Moore.

1262
01:00:48.420 --> 01:00:50.280
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam.

1263
01:00:50.340 --> 01:00:53.519
This episode, full of the doctor, was recorded on the 26th of June

1264
01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:56.159
2022 and released on the 23rd of October.

1265
01:01:00.420 --> 01:01:04.679
Fans of this sort of thing will also enjoy maximum power, which

1266
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:08.039
returns this week with a very special episode, an interview with

1267
01:01:08.039 --> 01:01:10.679
Doctor Who and Blake 7 director, Michael Lee Bryant.

1268
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:13.920
Check out maximumpowerpodcast.com for the details.

1269
01:01:18.300 --> 01:01:20.639
I think...

1270
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:21.480
Yeah, I think that's it.

1271
01:01:21.539 --> 01:01:22.380
Yeah, I think that's good.

1272
01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:24.599
And you've done the outro already.

1273
01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:26.159
And I've done the outro already.

1274
01:01:26.820 --> 01:01:28.380
Are you good?

1275
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:34.739
Yes, I'm good. revelation of the...

1276
01:01:34.739 --> 01:01:36.300
I think it's called Chunky William Hartnell.

1277
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:39.119
Yeah, yeah, I think it's absolutely called chunky William Hardle.

1278
01:01:39.179 --> 01:01:42.840
The one thing that I'd observe on the chunky one type thing is, I

1279
01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:45.300
mean, it doesn't, this doesn't have to go in or anything, is that

1280
01:01:45.300 --> 01:01:48.539
I know, you know, you're never going to be able to get the body

1281
01:01:48.539 --> 01:01:51.420
language right, but it's, it's, it's like it's worse than Terry

1282
01:01:51.420 --> 01:01:58.139
Walsh, all these, you know, people strolling around as, as, as

1283
01:01:58.139 --> 01:02:00.420
Colin everything. you know what I mean?

1284
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:03.239
It's so obviously not the same people.

1285
01:02:03.300 --> 01:02:05.219
It's, it's, it's...

1286
01:02:05.219 --> 01:02:09.119
It's when Patrick Trouton's running and he runs and then you cut

1287
01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:12.059
to him running and it's a different running motion like it's much

1288
01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:12.599
slower.

1289
01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:13.980
Yeah, it's wrong.

1290
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:14.519
It just wrong.

1291
01:02:14.579 --> 01:02:17.280
Like, you know, surely there are enough fans out there who can do

1292
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:19.739
accurate body impersonations.

1293
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.800
You just, you know, put a call out on Facebook and get them all in

1294
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:23.699
and to audition.

1295
01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:24.599
I mean, what's it?

1296
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:25.739
Who is it?

1297
01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:26.400
What's his face?

1298
01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:27.119
John Colshaw.

1299
01:02:27.179 --> 01:02:27.480
No.

1300
01:02:27.480 --> 01:02:29.340
What's the other one?

1301
01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:30.059
The pretty one.

1302
01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:31.920
Oh, Jacob Dudman.

1303
01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:34.559
The newer one, the newer one that's doing all the all the

1304
01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:35.940
impersonations.

1305
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:37.260
Yeah, but that's vocal impersonations.

1306
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:39.000
We need, you know, the physical impersonation.

1307
01:02:39.059 --> 01:02:40.679
Someone who could do the physical thing.

1308
01:02:40.739 --> 01:02:41.460
Yeah, yeah.

1309
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:44.340
The only other thing I'd sort of add, just a sort of a funnier

1310
01:02:44.340 --> 01:02:46.199
side, is you know, how you're saying that, you know, that you use

1311
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:48.900
they use 2 clips from the 5 doctors, one, but they both put we in

1312
01:02:48.900 --> 01:02:50.099
trout and from the 5 doctors.

1313
01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:54.179
It's like back in the old days, you know, in the 80s.

1314
01:02:54.179 --> 01:02:55.500
That's all we knew. all.

1315
01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:58.260
Well, no, but also it's the fact that, you know, internally, you

1316
01:02:58.260 --> 01:03:01.199
know, the production office probably had to pay this stupid sum of

1317
01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:05.639
money to the archive to extract a tape that they could then use.

1318
01:03:05.699 --> 01:03:08.460
And so it was going to be cheaper if they just got the 5 doctors

1319
01:03:08.460 --> 01:03:10.139
and they could grab everyone from there.

1320
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:14.820
It's like that's why you got the same blue pizza clips appearing

1321
01:03:14.820 --> 01:03:16.920
again and again and again is because it's like, oh, let's just

1322
01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:19.440
grab the, you know, the 1970s.

1323
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:23.579
You don't have to pay extra for someone to crawl through the tapes

1324
01:03:23.579 --> 01:03:26.280
because we don't have anyone on staff who's sad enough to just

1325
01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:28.500
automatically know when all these sequences happened.

1326
01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:33.480
That doesn't count.

1327
01:03:33.539 --> 01:03:33.900
Okay.

1328
01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:35.579
I, no, I might.

1329
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:38.280
I have the dog scratching at the door.

1330
01:03:38.340 --> 01:03:38.699
Yes.

1331
01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.699
And so we might leave you to get on with.

1332
01:03:41.699 --> 01:03:42.900
So I'm pressing stop.

1333
01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.900
Yeah, if you can just send me...