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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:27:48

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Hello, dear listen, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, whose origin story will be the subject of a TV movie sometime later this year.

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Johnny Lee Miller is playing me.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Greg, and I'm a much scrunched and abused hanky soaked in piss and vinegar for this one.

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Well, it's the 21st of November 2013, and in 2 days' time, Doctor Who will face his greatest and most terrifying enemy, his 50th birthday.

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So let's turn the urometer all the way back to 1963 to see how the legend begins as we discuss Mark Gatis's anniversary, special and adventure in Spain and time.

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It's funny, this one, because I hadn't seen it maybe since the year of its broadcast or something after.

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It's nearly been 10 years since I watched this.

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And I was actually surprised by how much I enjoyed it to be honest.

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You were surprised.

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I wasn't surprised.

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I was not surprised.

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I'm not a big fan of the sort of biopic documentary thing because if it properly tracks someone's life, it tends to be kind of just a bunch of things that happen and we don't really learn anything, just like life, you know. history.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I cannot change even if you try, apparently.

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But I think this is given a sort of unity, I guess, by making it the story of Bill Hartnell more than anything else.

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Yes, it starts as the story of verity and then quickly becomes the story of Bill Hartnell and it's not a biopic per se, because it's about events rather than a person, per se.

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And usually these kind of things are reasonably fictionalised.

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And of course, we can discuss the various historical inaccuracies in due course.

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Or accuracies.

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We get to that.

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Well, no, there are many, there are lots of accuracies, but of course there are also some things that they, you know, change.

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But I think not only is it so heartwarming and beautiful, it is also structured in a way which is a logical story.

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It creates a 90 minute movie, which isn't just here's a series of stuff and oh, we're at the end of 90 minutes and so we'll stop here.

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Yeah, that's right.

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If it had been a docudrama, I think it would have been a lesser thing, so...

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Yeah, and well, maybe not, but it would have just been a retelling of the events, like you said.

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And in 2010, there was the thing which paved the way for this, which was the road to Coronation Street, which was Coronation Street's 50th anniversary sort of making of program.

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And I think that was more of a docudrama and it wasn't quite as entertaining, although it was successful.

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This works because it's not just the story of the genesis of the program.

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It's the story of the people involved and the fact that Bill Hartnell, like we mentioned, was an actor in the Twilight of his career, and it was almost his redemption story, if you want.

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But it is also the story of pioneers.

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And so what Mark zeros in on is the fact that verity was obviously a young female producer in a corporation which was full of middle-aged man.

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Warris was a young Anglo-Indian director.

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In fact, the youngest drama director that the BBC has ever had, making his way.

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And you want the stories of these people.

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You want to know why Doctor Who was pioneering and innovative effort, and it's tied up in the fact that these were young, go getting people.

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And it's also a love letter.

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It's a love letter to Doctor Who, it's a love letter to the 60s generally.

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It's a love letter to television centre, particularly.

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Yeah, to the founding powers of Vidal So soon.

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The rock bed on which this is built.

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So it manages to do the whole love letter thing without being too cheesy.

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It walks the right side of the line.

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It's astonishing how little crunchy fromage there is on this, isn't there?

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Did you know if Gauges could be this good?

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Oh, this is clearly the very best thing he has ever written for Doctor Who.

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It's Doctor Who stories.

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I think, can I have a bit more of this, please?

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beautifully done.

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This felt, I don't know, I like to hear from Greg, but this felt, to me, as a round table question, a really thin premise, and I'm looking at this thinking much like Doctor Who.

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Well, exactly.

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No, that's exactly right, because I'm looking at it thinking, how, and this is the case I know, and Peter, you know, this, of all narrative drama, is how will you engage with thin facts that on the surface no one will be interested in unless they're fans?

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Well, you make it about the human drama.

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You make it about the fallen gods, you make it about the rise.

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I mean, this is really a Greek tragedy, isn't it?

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You've got Athena rising over there and then you've got the old gone, you've got, he's hardly Zeus, isn't he?

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But you've got poor old Prometheus crumbling to ashes on as Bill Arnell on the right.

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And then, I suppose, Carol Anne Ford is the Deus X Makina. suppose.

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You also reorder things a bit because some of the historical problems are bringing the emotions forward to the right part of the story rather than where they actually occurred in the real world.

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And collapsing characters together.

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Yeah, that's right.

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But I do like that Richard Martin and Warris Hussein are actually the same person, even though they're played by 2 actors in this.

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According to the script, it's still Wars.

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So, yeah, I think I think what it manages to do.

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And I guess it's that conceit where we start on Bill Hartnell driving to work on his last day of work.

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And is he where is he?

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That's uncommon.

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Yes, with his everlasting matches.

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Yes.

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The kiss to the Daleks novelisation is just gorgeous.

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Is it his way too, or is it his way back?

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No, no, he's on his way back.

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It's leaving after his last scene.

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And he could actually be on his way home in Kent.

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That is a path from the BBC television centre to Kent goes past Barnes Commons.

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And so having the policeman say, you know, you're in the way.

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Yeah.

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Which is a little bit on the nose.

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It's the most obvious thing.

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A magic ring. there's another bit there.

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Of course, what does the policeman do?

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He knocks 4 times on the car. didn't pick that one up.

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I didn't say that either.

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I mean, magic realism would have had Bill step into the police box, but I like this.

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I like this one.

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Well, I suppose that could have been a choice rather than Matt Smith appear at the end and we'll get to that.

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You could have had him getting into the police box on Barnes Common. materializer.

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We're going to get to Matt Smith appearing, I'll need a Hanky right now.

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I guess I guess what it's doing is it tells the story of someone who is a bit of a miserable old bastard.

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And we see him famous, miserable pastor.

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And we see him being mean to his granddaughter Jessica, who we now know about.

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But as Brian said when we were watching it, he said, that was my grandfather.

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Yeah, his grandfather would speak to him.

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Mine as well.

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Yep.

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And that kind of brusque tone, you know, sit there, don't make a noise when I don't want you to make a noise.

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I'm reading the paper. watching the television or I'm having my scotch or whatever it is.

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Very, very typical.

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What it is, is it's a beautiful portrait of a man whose time has passed.

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His era has passed even in 1963, his way of doing things is being pushed aside.

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It's the kind of the 2nd World War generation, I suppose, that are now beginning replaced by the baby boomers.

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Like the theme of the idiot's lantern as well, which is the same kind of thing.

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Yeah, same kind of thing.

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So he learns to, you know, he becomes the doctor.

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He becomes Doctor Who, who is a silly, cuddly character. as we all observed, I think, when we went through this for flight through entirety, that he's actually much less grumpy than John Nathan Turner thought he was or Richard Herndle thought he was.

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His actually really lovely.

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So I assume that we've all seen the interview with Bill Hartnall, that is in one of the DVDs, which they unearthed, where he's in the dressing room in a panther off 10 planet.

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And he this very much informs how he is depicted in this because that's a glimpse into Bill Hartnell, the man, which we don't have.

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Not fumbling, not stuttering.

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Yeah, and sort of and sort of small and tight and resentful of life.

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And in fact, one of his lines.

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One of his lines in this is drawn directly from that where he says, I am a legitimate star of children theatre.

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That word legitimate, film and theatre.

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Not of television, because television, even having done the television.

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Not real.

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It's a bit of...

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Before we get all to that...

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You know, he spent over a decade living with Charles Hawtrey.

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No?

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Yeah, they shared digs on and off, but they were very, very good mates.

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So before we get... legitimate star of the theatre.

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Well, I suppose living with Charles, but Charles was completely effing mental.

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Now, he would actually, apparently he would set off fire alarm so he could get the fireman over and then he'd drop his knickers for them.

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Oh, God.

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That's it, much like this podcast.

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But if we just, if I can just expand on that point.

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It's not just the choice of words, which they get so right, and they're lifting it from that interview, which is probably the only decent length clip we have of Hartle being Hartle.

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The only primary source.

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It's not just that it's the delivery.

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The intonation.

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That's angry legitimate.

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Yeah, yeah, but it's not just the way he says that.

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It's everything he says during that interview.

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It's very hard edged and very army and very, you know, brusque.

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The whole thing.

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And that, I think, is what we see in the performance.

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And when he's dealing with that reporter who's there, he is almost like he believes that the reporter is a station below him.

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It's like treating like treating people badly in a restaurant, which, in fact, he does in this episode.

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Yeah.

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He has a sense of class.

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Not necessarily just upper class, middle class, lower class, but in terms of almost caste system in terms of...

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You only work in a shop.

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It's Mr. Hartnell to you, et cetera. all that kind of stuff.

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Sunny boy.

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And then I guess what happens is the tragedy is twofold.

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One is his increasing illness, and then the other is the people that he loved and relied on, gradually disappearing from the show.

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One of the things we hear about all the time in Doctor Who is the team of people.

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And the team is being built and then it's being torn apart and built again, torn apart and towards the end, he's obviously not interested in building new teams.

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Yeah, especially not when they bring in a statuesque Scandinavian to play Ben.

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Far too tall.

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The Ben in this is so gay.

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It's unbelvable.

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But all those, all those repeated shots of the publicity shots being taken in the courtyard of television centre, which is actually, I think, from the 1st anniversary drinks that they have, when the show's been sold to the Australia.

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That's that famous photograph of them all recently. with verity.

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Yeah.

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So it's just, obviously, it's not real, but it's actually quite beautifully done the way David Bradley is less and less engaged. as each new cast arrives.

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And by the time you get to Ben and Polly, he's just, he's actually just not there.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And the whole thing with that entire courtyard thing is it's a Panopticon, of course.

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So it's got a point in the middle where you can see everything around it, which is that television centre of thing that, sorry, I mentioned before.

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It's a lovely letter television centre.

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It's featured so prominently at a range of points and it's a very different appearance each time.

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Is television centre at this point?

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Like when does television centre get sold off?

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So this was the last drama that was ever shot at television centre, and I believe that very soon after, like maybe within a month it was closed and was starting to be renovated into apartments.

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Yeah.

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So it is very definitely that, isn't it?

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I mean, there's no way that Mark Gatis isn't making it a love letter to...

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Oh, absolutely.

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Even though the show's not actually shot there.

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No. in the early days, but it's still home based.

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And you know, the production office isn't there.

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It's at threshold house, whatever.

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No, but I'm totally willing to let that go.

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Oh, yes.

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Just all of those loving establishing shots of the horseshoe at night with the lights lit up and everything as a Doctor Who fan, when you were growing up, it was just this kind of far off mecca.

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It was like our Hollywood, where it were just, you know, make these incredible adventures with mummies and maggots and things like that, and to actually see it, and to see it evokes so beautifully, really tugs at the heartstrings.

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It does, yeah, yeah.

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The 1st time that I went to London by myself where, you know, I was just spending time doing whatever it was that I wanted and it was, you know, 2008 or something. being interfered with my parents or partners.

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But not parents, partners.

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I did do a little pilgrimage to BBC television centre just so that I could say that I had sort of been there and seen it.

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And it was.

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It was exactly that.

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I'm standing outside thinking, somewhere in that building, Tom Baker was telling everyone to hurry up really grumpily so that he could be replaced by Peter Davison later on in the same shot. it is really special.

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And I guess the other thing that this is celebrating is the knowledge that we have of how the program was made.

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And Doctor Who, when it was released on DVD from sort of 2000 onwards, became perhaps one of the most well-documented television productions.

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Oh, the most in history.

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Oh, before that.

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And you're not just talking about the tele snaps, are you?

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But all of those documentaries, every story gets a documentary made about it based on stuff that we have.

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I mean, we know the entire history of Carol Anne sandwich orders, don't we?

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Interesting, the waves of that.

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I mean, the risk of digressing, you've got the kind of the early wave of Doctor Who knowledge, which is basic effectively, the received wisdom of 3 people, 50% of which is actually wrong or just their memories of the thing.

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And then it kind of gets built up in the in the very late 80s and into the 90s.

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And then you get the whole, the 3rd level, again, is then the DVD documentary.

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It basically goes Jeremy Bentham, Doctor Who magazine, archive, DVD documentaries.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Because, I mean, I was watching this with Calvin on the couch yesterday and he was quite engaged in it.

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He won't normally watch Doctor Who with me, but he certainly was watching this.

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And I just couldn't resist, you know, okay, maybe twice. 25 minutes.

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Like, I didn't go crazy.

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We know that that's a real thing.

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You know, that actually happened.

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You know, I've seen the pilot where the doors open.

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And even little touches like him dropping the scarf on the ground.

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Yeah, yeah.

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With the best eye roll ever from Warris.

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Yes, yes, just those little touches are part of what makes up.

212
00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:59.340
And I like that.

213
00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:03.539
They're all conflated and they're done in an overstated way.

214
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:12.720
One thing that got me this time, even more so than it did on 1st viewing, is that the performances are not just RP.

215
00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:27.059
They're really boldlerized, especially those of, I mean, it's unfair to say which cast members, but there are some, Jackie Hill never played it like that, and even Carol Anne got a lot more naturalism in, and even when you watch Bill in his farewell speech.

216
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:31.980
I just think the, it's not, it's done like this to serve the narrative.

217
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:43.080
But there's actually, the one thing I would say that I would criticise about this production is that it lets the truth of the original performance down a little by not giving them their dues.

218
00:16:43.139 --> 00:16:46.259
They were not that wooden, or they were not that obvious.

219
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:51.000
I think that's just a kind of a film and television trope, to use that word.

220
00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:53.700
But, Susan...

221
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.220
It's played honestly live here.

222
00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:08.579
But when people when people are acting in these kind of things within the show, they often make it a bit more wooden to make it clear that this is... acting.

223
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.019
And as well as mocking the sort of the terrible terrible RP.

224
00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:16.619
I'm actually too excited about the wigs to really be offended.

225
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.799
I actually thought the woman who played Barbara was...

226
00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:20.819
Oh, damn gray.

227
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.019
Basically, you look like us.

228
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:23.099
You sound like a.

229
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.200
She's been she's been having that on repeat.

230
00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:27.299
So good.

231
00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:31.079
I think that Jamie Blover catches the essence of William Russell really well.

232
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:34.740
Considering who his father was and what he lived with all those years.

233
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.059
Yes, absolutely.

234
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:40.680
When he does the police box standing in a junkyard line.

235
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:53.759
I think it's absolutely perfect Okay, can I just say, these recreations are special magic for Doctor Who fans to watch these iconic scenes, which you know so well remounted so lovingly.

236
00:17:53.819 --> 00:18:01.859
It brings a tear to your eye, but also, it put me in mind of our legendary plays from the 90s for the conventions.

237
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.579
So I half expected Ian to turn around and say, let me get this street.

238
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:12.119
A police box standing in a junkyard can go anywhere within 20 miles of the BBC television centre.

239
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:15.299
That was yours.

240
00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:16.440
I heard a cry.

241
00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:18.900
That was one of the best lights you wrote for.

242
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:20.519
I think too.

243
00:18:20.579 --> 00:18:35.039
One of the things that may be a little unfair, and I think Richard is likely to agree with me on this is the reliance on Billy Fluffs as a way of indicating that he's getting increasingly ill.

244
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:40.019
And we don't know why those happen, but it is telling that they often don't happen.

245
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.200
You know, they don't happen when he's playing the Abbot of Amboise.

246
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:44.579
They don't happen, apparently.

247
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:45.839
Yeah.

248
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:47.400
That happened generally in the historicals.

249
00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:48.180
Yeah.

250
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.700
So maybe it's just a question of engagement here.

251
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:51.059
Yeah.

252
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:56.220
Yeah, and it's also, you know, it's a mixup of character tick and actor tick as well.

253
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:58.559
Like some of those Billy Fluffs are character stuff.

254
00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:03.359
But certainly they are using them to tell the story of his illness, I think.

255
00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:10.740
No, he's also, I think the sequence where he's like, you know, trying to remember the lines from Web Planet and his wife's going through them with his bed.

256
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.180
I think he's just tired.

257
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.559
He's old and tired.

258
00:19:13.619 --> 00:19:15.059
I think there are 2 stories there.

259
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.819
There's one where it's such a gruelling schedule.

260
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:24.599
He's got 25 minutes that he's carrying every week of new dialogue, half of which is practically unintelligible.

261
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.400
I mean it makes me shudder to think about it.

262
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:27.299
Well, exactly.

263
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:29.579
And so I think there are 2 lines there.

264
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.339
One is the illness, but the other is just the fact that it's just gruelling.

265
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:37.799
And actually, it gives truth to what Rex Tucker says early on.

266
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:43.380
You know, the much maligned Rex Tucker in there, too, I don't think was a misogynistic bastard. that is played like that.

267
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:48.720
Well, I think it's just to summarise the year of it, giving his tube doing a shoddy job of directing the gunfighters.

268
00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:49.680
There you.

269
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:58.740
I think it actually highlights, though, it's a nice little tonal piece because even men who would consider themselves to be gentlemen and good to their wives and daughters.

270
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:04.019
I remember officers in the late 70s, early 80s, as a student still behaving like that.

271
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:10.079
Yes, when you got, they had that documentary with Annabelle Crabbe, old women in Parliament in Cabinet.

272
00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:17.099
And they all say, you know, on all sides of politics, basically the women in the room would all report afterwards of basically they'd come up with an idea.

273
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:22.740
And then it would kind of be picked up and suddenly it's somebody else's idea and they're effectively, it's as if they're not even in the room.

274
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:31.920
The example in this story is Jeff Rawl's character, who he plays Mervyn Pinfield, I think, is ours, isn't he wonderful?

275
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.240
And he's delightful.

276
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:35.339
I mean, no one is sweeter than him, I think.

277
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:43.740
He's a really lovely actor, but verity still has to stop him from calling her...

278
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:45.000
Yeah, dear lady, that's right.

279
00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:49.559
Can we just take a moment to realise that he was Plantagenus in frontier?

280
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:50.039
Yeah, yeah.

281
00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:51.660
That's just...

282
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:52.740
Oh, man, goodness.

283
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.839
I was thinking of him and drop the dead donkey.

284
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:58.980
Or Sarah Jane Adventures, where he's the Mona Lisa sidekick.

285
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.259
So what is the actual real history there?

286
00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:10.500
I mean, obviously, dramatically, they're kind of a Mervyn Pinfield, there is kind of a combination of Mervyn and David Whittaker, really, because David Whittaker is the one who gets the short straw.

287
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.019
It just doesn't get mentioned at all, which I think is very sad.

288
00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:14.700
And Terry Nation, interesting.

289
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:18.119
Terry, get termination, get some mention. that comedy writer.

290
00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:19.740
The Hancock person.

291
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:21.779
Yeah, but let's make that clear.

292
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:26.460
Terry Nation's role in the beginning of Doctor Who gets one line, that comedy writer.

293
00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:29.819
Yeah, and Anthony O'Burn gets no mention really at all.

294
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:30.960
Yeah that's true.

295
00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:32.160
The fleas.

296
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:33.359
What about you?

297
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.700
I was waiting for Bunny Webber.

298
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:36.240
We did that.

299
00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:42.240
And later on when, you know, they're talking about what to do, do they have to cancel Dr. Hipp, because Hartnell just can't go on.

300
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:44.700
And Mervyn is in the room with Sidney Newman.

301
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.880
Is he like, what is his actual role in Doctor Who?

302
00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:50.039
And then is he kind of senior in the BBC after that?

303
00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:50.759
No.

304
00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:54.420
So this is one of the things which I can forgive because it's dramatic license.

305
00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:59.519
But you notice that Mervyn Pinfield didn't get one of the they went on to do this at the end.

306
00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:10.079
That's because Mervyn Pinfield died in 1966. shortly after he was meant to direct Galaxy 4 and so couldn't have possibly been in the room to discuss William Hart and all this.

307
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:11.220
That's fine.

308
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.940
Yes, Mervin Pinfield died before the end of this program.

309
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:15.720
Correct.

310
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:34.079
I mean, there are sort of other inaccuracies, obviously, if we're sort of talking about inaccuracies.

311
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:42.480
There seems to be a lot of rehearsals going on in the actual set, which seem to be early rehearsals, script in hand rehearsals, the kind of stuff that would have been done in acting or wherever.

312
00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:50.880
I mean, because they just had like an afternoon in the studio, didn't they, as a kind of a dress rehearsal before then, going to dinner and then coming back and recording it?

313
00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:51.839
That the way it worked, didn't it?

314
00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:52.440
That's right.

315
00:22:52.500 --> 00:23:04.319
So those scenes of Bill Hartnell and the others basically throwing around lines from the 1st episode with Sidney Newman coming in to see them on set and that, that was clearly long before they would actually be shooting.

316
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.839
Yeah, and so it's a bit of a conflation.

317
00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:10.019
And Bill Harton was saying, you know, I want to see the set of the TARDIS.

318
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:14.579
Well, obviously they would have seen this out of the TARDIS because they were filming on the same day with that set.

319
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:20.460
But having said that, I think we can get away with that as dramatic license, even though as purists.

320
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:22.859
We know that wasn't exactly the way it was.

321
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.140
The one thing which got me was the regeneration.

322
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:34.859
I sat there thinking, you know, why is Bill Hartnell walking to set and shooting the regeneration and like there's a big lead up, whereas we know these episodes were shot within basically real time.

323
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.099
You know, I had an hour and a quarter of studio time to churn out 25 minutes.

324
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.460
But then I did more research and realised that's actually what happened.

325
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:43.140
Mark got it right.

326
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.759
The regeneration was shot 1st thing that day and then they went on and shot the rest of the episode.

327
00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:49.019
So it's actually true.

328
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:50.039
Oh, fascinating.

329
00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:50.819
That's interesting.

330
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.740
Was that because they were worried about getting the effect, right?

331
00:23:52.799 --> 00:24:07.980
Yeah, originally it was supposed to be that the doctor would fall down with his cloak over his face and then the next episode, the cloak would come off and Patrick Trouton would be revealed, but Shirley Coward, the vision mixer, knew that one of the vision desks had a problem and would flare to white when you mixed it.

332
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:09.900
And so she said, I think we can actually do an effect.

333
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:10.440
Wow.

334
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:14.279
So they set it up and shot it 1st to make sure that, you know, it was all in the can.

335
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.319
That's actually a beautiful summary of why Doctor Who is so great is people like that.

336
00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:20.220
Serendipity.

337
00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:22.799
It's not to no, it's not really serendipity.

338
00:24:22.859 --> 00:24:31.319
It's people using what they have and almost using what they have, which they know is actually a bit broken and leaning into that and making that work.

339
00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:33.839
Like the division mixer is not supposed to flare to white.

340
00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:34.440
You know what I mean?

341
00:24:34.500 --> 00:24:35.640
It's a broken piece of equipment.

342
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:36.839
That's actually very poignant.

343
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.119
That they're utilising to give the effect.

344
00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:41.640
And I think that's a summary of what Doctor Who's so great.

345
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:43.920
Or is made so great.

346
00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:55.500
Just going back again to the 60s thing, if I may, those are little touches to sort of place you in the 60s, but also to place you in an organisation which is so, you know, in some respects stuffy as the BBC.

347
00:24:55.559 --> 00:25:03.000
You know, you've got the wonderful William Russell in that opening scene when Cindy Newman arrives in the car park and he's playing the car parking attendance.

348
00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:05.700
Like, that's not the way we do things at the BBC, sir.

349
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:09.960
I mean, it is such a good summary of that kind of person in those kind of roles in that kind of era.

350
00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:13.740
But also in the beginning where, you know, Hartnell's waiting to go out to shoot.

351
00:25:13.859 --> 00:25:16.740
I mean, his dressing room and when you go out and to shoot the regeneration scene.

352
00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:22.140
And you've got, you know, the stage hand knocking on the door saying, well, they're ready for you, Mr. Hart and blah, blah, blah.

353
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:24.359
And he's saying, look, I'm only doing my job.

354
00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:28.799
That is such a good summary of that kind of, you know, I'm only doing my job sort of attitude.

355
00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:31.559
Yes, the BBC was full of stuffy shirts and jobs worth.

356
00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:34.019
Yeah, which is in contrast to the vision mixer lady.

357
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:41.700
And in contrast to our 3 main people here, Verity and Warus and the other outsider who we didn't mention, the Canadian outsider.

358
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:43.079
Sidney Newman.

359
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:43.559
Yes.

360
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:47.759
And isn't it nice to see Brian Cox in such a very, varied role?

361
00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:54.779
I expected him to be playing the 5th monkey again with his telescope and he really fatted up for the job. really improved.

362
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:56.700
I mean, he is in Doctor Who, actually.

363
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:02.579
He is the voice of the main ood in the end of.

364
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:03.539
Of course he is.

365
00:26:04.619 --> 00:26:06.900
Brian Cox main nude.

366
00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:28.799
The other thing that's really playing with the timeline is bringing Dalek mania forward for a whole year because the Daleks did not become so popular until after the Dalek invasion of Earth, they were But I had a look at the transcript in the dead planet, or the Daleks, if you want to call it, exterminator extermination is mentioned 5 times by the Daleks in 7 episodes.

367
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:32.759
You can't imagine people, kids will be playing Daleks on the bus.

368
00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:35.579
That's just to make the story work better.

369
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:51.000
I mean, yes, but I don't know about that because if you look at the ratings for the Daleks, they go from 6000000 at the start to 10000000 at the end, so the audience had doubled in this time, and they particularly jump in the episode after the Daleks themselves were introduced.

370
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:54.660
So there was a genuine cultural thing that was tapped into there.

371
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.940
I mean, it's all conflated a little bit.

372
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.319
That actually made me quite happy.

373
00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:04.200
I think there are 2 ways of Dalek, man, because, I mean, remember the 1st Dalek story starts practically on Christmas.

374
00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:06.059
So it's the following Christmas.

375
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:06.660
Yeah.

376
00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:08.519
With Dalek, after Dalek Invention of Earth.

377
00:27:08.579 --> 00:27:11.279
Yes, that's when I think all the merchandise hits.

378
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.240
Starting with the place.

379
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:14.220
Starting with that annual, yes.

380
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:22.200
But I think I think that the I think that kids are almost certainly playing Daleks on buses and in playgrounds and so on.

381
00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:27.779
And maybe it's one of those things it's like, it's like, you know, auton smashing out of shop windows in speed of different space.

382
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.680
It never actually happens.

383
00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:38.519
And it's almost like, you know, maybe they do only say exterminate 5 times in the 1st Dalek story, but for some reason, that's the word that is grabbed onto.

384
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:43.140
I mean, I have to say, the depiction of Sidney Newman, while I think it's an important character.

385
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:47.039
So it's a little bit broad, but the whole pop, pop, pop and all of that.

386
00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:50.819
And so I thought that was one of the slightly weaker elements.

387
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:56.519
But Brian Cox does a really good job of bringing to life Sydney's outsider status.

388
00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:59.339
In fact, there was no nonsense and he had the right instinct.

389
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:01.319
You want to be a producer, baby.

390
00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:02.339
You want to be a producer?

391
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.500
John Lennon Glasses, play a trumpet.

392
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:05.640
Exactly.

393
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:13.079
But that's actually something that I wanted to point out, that sequence where, you know, he's all charming too, to Heartwell, to try and win him over and then basically pulls verity aside.

394
00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:15.900
That's such a great...

395
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:17.759
But be a producer, find a way to deal with.

396
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:20.579
That's when she obviously marches into Peterborough Chackie, is it?

397
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:22.680
The Tardis console is that.

398
00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:24.299
Another one who's slightly villainised.

399
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:25.380
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

400
00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:26.279
I love a Peter Pan.

401
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:31.019
Peter Pan, because there's a lot more to betrach his design than what he builds on that desk.

402
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:37.859
But he's actually very interesting because Sidney Newman is actually Michael Grade, who is the villain in Doctor Who history.

403
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.779
Michael Grady brought in from basically a commercial type enterprise.

404
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:45.180
Well, I suppose it's channel four, which is, which is he gone to channel four?

405
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:46.019
Yeah, commercially.

406
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:56.460
He comes from a commercial background, like Sidney Newman does, to shake the place up because the BBC is starting to flail a little bit in that it's basically being overwhelmed by its own stuffiness. its own conservatism.

407
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:59.160
And Sydney Newman's brought in to shake all that up.

408
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:01.980
And likewise, Michael Grade in the mid 80s is brought in to shake up the babies.

409
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.440
And Michael Grade arguably does a decent job of it.

410
00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:08.940
It's his successor, Jonathan Powell, and then John Burst, who really kind of mucked things up.

411
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.799
But grades term it the BBC.

412
00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:12.660
It was actually doing quite well and was quite popular.

413
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.599
Oh, well, I'm just more talking about throwing the baby out with the bath water.

414
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:18.059
Oh, yeah, no, but, you know, in terms of grade being a villain.

415
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:21.240
Yes, he's a villain to us, but his broader instincts were probably right.

416
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:21.960
Oh, yeah, probably.

417
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.140
Yeah, cancel the show for God's sake.

418
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.940
From what we know of Newman.

419
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:32.460
And this is the lovely thing of conflations and truth within dreamt reality, which is Doctor Who.

420
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:35.339
I really would, I know, we've talked about this before.

421
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:41.819
I would have loved to have seen this actually go quite cocktail like and just truth and reality bleeding together.

422
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:52.619
And then I would have liked 490 minute episodes with that crew. revisiting new, both new and old monsters and new ideas before we started with the lovely Mr. Capaldi.

423
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:53.940
I just think it would have been quite beautiful.

424
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:19.079
As we go through the history of Doctor Who in those first couple of years, just those glimpses are so important to us as fans, so it's not just the Daleks or the 1st episode, we're on the set of the Reign of Terror.

425
00:30:19.140 --> 00:30:24.660
Yeah, with the hat, yes, yes.

426
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.140
Yeah, I want to see Marco Polo, Marinace, and the Aztecs.

427
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:34.200
Well, I mean, I think the Marco Polo thing was a really, really great thing and that's a moment, isn't it?

428
00:30:34.259 --> 00:30:38.339
Don't we pan up from like seeing the set on the little monastery?

429
00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:39.299
On the black and white?

430
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:44.039
And someone says, imagine if this was in colour and then the camera goes up and it is in colour.

431
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:45.119
It's gorgeous.

432
00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:48.359
Well, because that was an absolute triumph of design.

433
00:30:48.420 --> 00:30:50.339
That's Barry Newberry, isn't it?

434
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:51.119
Yeah.

435
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:51.599
It is.

436
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:56.880
And of course, you know, it's important to this story because it's Warris Sain's 2nd episode.

437
00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:57.420
Yeah, yeah.

438
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:01.980
I mean, we do have the illusion that Warris Hussein is the only director of Doctor Who for a certain block of time.

439
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:04.319
But I can live there.

440
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:04.980
Four stories.

441
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:05.759
If only.

442
00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:08.460
Well, we have Richard Martin, don't we?

443
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:13.440
Directing... and he's even wearing a cravat, which I think is absolutely...

444
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:17.519
And I love the fact that you got Douglas Canfield as an assistant floor manager.

445
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:27.779
One thing that I didn't think would ever happen is that Richard Martin wouldn't yell at a performer for some technical problem. would just kind of let it happen.

446
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:28.859
Yes, exactly.

447
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:30.359
Because, I mean, who cares?

448
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:32.579
I have a couple of things to say.

449
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:41.279
So when I interviewed Richard Martin in 1995, he was wearing a cravat, very like that in the photographs that I took for DWM.

450
00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:44.460
I like the fact that he is played by Ian Hallard, who is Mark Gatis's husband.

451
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:45.240
Oh, wow.

452
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:51.359
And also to your point, Nathan, about Richard Martin not yelling anyone because he didn't care.

453
00:31:51.420 --> 00:32:05.099
He actually related a story to me when I interviewed him of being on Westminster Bridge when the Daleks were coming towards them and Robert Jewell, I think, who is the Australian, I may get, may have that name wrong, but I think it was Robert Jewell, who was the Australian Dalek operator.

454
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:07.019
He was yelling, come on, you're getting out of line.

455
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:08.160
You're not keeping up with the others.

456
00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:10.859
And apparently was berated by this Dalek operator.

457
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:13.140
You get inside one of these things and try it out.

458
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:15.000
So that's kind of based in reality.

459
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:16.980
Wow, okay, that's amazing.

460
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:18.180
Fantastic.

461
00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:20.279
There's another great story.

462
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:26.279
I thought you were going to say from the Richard Martin interview, which was about what Warris Hussein wanted to do.

463
00:32:26.339 --> 00:32:28.680
You have to, is that reliable?

464
00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:38.460
Yes, in fact, there was the instance where, you know, Richard obviously worked with Warris a lot, and Warris apparently said to Sidney Human, as relayed by Richard Martin.

465
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.160
But Sid, can't I do passage to India?

466
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:44.400
Director Sidney Newman said, we may do a passage to India.

467
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:46.440
You're going to do Effen Doctor, who...

468
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.339
Yes, but it was like that kind of wistful passage.

469
00:32:53.339 --> 00:32:56.640
And in fact, he did end up doing passion...

470
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.440
Yeah, except not exactly after dog two.

471
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:00.660
Right Sometime later.

472
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:12.359
I was actually surprised by how much, because, you know, we used to Warris Hussein as he looks now or in the last few decades, but Sashuan is actually quite...

473
00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:13.380
It's astonishing.

474
00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:18.420
He's obviously the slightly Hollywood-ized version of Warris, but I don't think Warris minds that.

475
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:19.559
I'm sure he doesn't.

476
00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:26.400
But I also like to imagine that because he also plays the master in years to come.

477
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:34.440
He's going back for his vengeance on the doctor after being put in all those bad situations of lots of exposition.

478
00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.740
So we're going to tie her up and exposit at her for an entire episode.

479
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.400
So I reckon that is the master, right?

480
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:51.539
Because he gets left behind in World War 2 by the doctor, on the Eiffel Tower, and then he gets a job in 2012 or 2013.

481
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:56.220
He's just directing passage to India, I think, goes off to meet the doctor.

482
00:33:56.279 --> 00:34:01.740
But just going back to the Daleks for a minute, if I may, actually thinking further about what you were saying. there, Greg.

483
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:06.900
The way they introduce the Daleks in this program is beautiful.

484
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.780
When you've seen it from the inside, you don't get a clear shot of the outside.

485
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:14.280
All you get is these shots of people looking at them and get verity with her fangs.

486
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:16.559
Could you be more specific?

487
00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:18.539
She was holding a cigarette as well.

488
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:27.480
And uh, and uh, and then you see them and you see those beautifully reconstructed sequences, which are just so well done.

489
00:34:27.539 --> 00:34:33.059
And you can see how in such a tiny space the whole thing is being created in, which makes it so magical.

490
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:38.760
And it realised when I saw them trundling past and we both, Ryan and I turned each other, said, yeah, they were phenomenal.

491
00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:40.559
I mean, 1963.

492
00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:42.239
The design of the television.

493
00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:43.440
Like, this is something...

494
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.400
It's extraordinary.

495
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:45.539
The design.

496
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:47.579
Yeah, it could be. it could have been dreadful.

497
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:48.780
It could have been made out of cloth.

498
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:51.239
Like one of the original...

499
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:54.300
Yes, one of the original ideas was, would could it work?

500
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.619
Because, you know, Remember Terry Nation wanted them to be like ballet dancers. not ballet dancers, particularly kind of Russian.

501
00:34:58.679 --> 00:34:59.159
Georgia, Georgia.

502
00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:00.900
Georgia, I think, yes, Georgia said dun.

503
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.219
Like, you know, you don't see the feet move.

504
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:02.940
You just see this thing.

505
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:08.699
And one of the original ideas was to create like a kind of a wire mesh and then drape these cloths over it.

506
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:10.800
We all love Alpha Centauri.

507
00:35:10.860 --> 00:35:14.340
Yeah, yeah, but it basically would have been that Victoria Waterfield.

508
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.119
They would have had a skirt like the crotons.

509
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:20.699
Yes, it would have been like that that was that original thing.

510
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:21.599
Didn't that go that long?

511
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:23.099
Well, again, budget.

512
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:29.039
Cusick really gets claustrophobia. and he really gets, and don't forget, this is a, have you built your bombshell?

513
00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:30.239
Have you got your new Anderson shoulders?

514
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:30.960
Yeah.

515
00:35:31.019 --> 00:35:33.659
You know, we only we only had the Bay of Pigs a year before.

516
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:40.079
So the whole thing of that, the claustrophobia of the Dalek sets, that really is extraordinary.

517
00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:50.519
And it really brings home that incredible original design for the Daleks because even in light of the 21st century RTD version of Daleks, which rebuilds them as something which looks more industrial.

518
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:55.139
And yeah, you know, more sort of real to the touch, but still keeping the silhouette.

519
00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:57.360
Those originals in situ.

520
00:35:57.420 --> 00:35:58.440
Look beautiful.

521
00:35:58.500 --> 00:35:59.639
And fragile.

522
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:00.239
Incredible.

523
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:02.460
And their fear works both ways.

524
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:06.719
I think we feel their fear. compounds our own fear.

525
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:09.000
Yeah, they're not robots.

526
00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:10.619
They're not speaking with robot voices.

527
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:11.639
They're not emotion.

528
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:13.619
Nick Briggs in a week.

529
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:14.820
Yeah, I know, it's so great.

530
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.340
In a liberanti wig.

531
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.860
Let's say, yeah, he's a kind of Ford, isn't it?

532
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:20.820
Who is he being?

533
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.260
Who do we think he's being?

534
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:23.460
Is he Peter Hall?

535
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.300
David Graham?

536
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:33.480
I would say I admire Mark Gaterson's restraint when redoing those scenes from the Daleks that he doesn't have the Daleks say exterminate.

537
00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:36.659
He has the Daleks say historically accurate fire.

538
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.139
Yeah.

539
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:38.820
Oh, yes, it's all historically accurate.

540
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:39.780
That stuff is all...

541
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:40.320
It's beautiful.

542
00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:42.059
Are you conflating five-ish doctors, though?

543
00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:43.380
because I'm still seeing.

544
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:43.800
Yeah.

545
00:36:43.860 --> 00:36:45.900
It's not just the lines that are right.

546
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:47.460
It's the intonations which are right.

547
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:50.579
And I think that's what makes it so magical, especially from the regular crew.

548
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:52.260
Yeah Yeah.

549
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:53.760
And it is just for us.

550
00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:58.380
I mean, that's not for the not we watching this over the anniversary we.

551
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:07.920
But that's because it's made by people who love it and know that that's it's good so easily of just being just all the same lines or approximately the same lines, just read in a completely different way.

552
00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:09.119
So well done.

553
00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:13.380
So the reason that I mentioned having met people like Warris St.

554
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:18.840
Richmond is I used to do the interviews for Doctor 2 magazine over a number of years, which is where I got to meet a lot of these people.

555
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:20.579
And so I've met Warris twice.

556
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:23.880
I did 2 interviews with him, and I think that this story does justice to him.

557
00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:32.400
Because he's such an interesting man and such an interesting character that to build the story around him was the right choice, I think.

558
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:36.840
The woman who plays verity, who was obviously in high.

559
00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:38.340
Lovely Jessica Rain.

560
00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:39.659
Call the midwife.

561
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:40.800
So magnificent.

562
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:41.820
Probably good.

563
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:44.940
She's also Reverend Golightly from the Unicorn and the Wasp's wife.

564
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.860
Oh, she is.

565
00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:48.840
And in other things as well.

566
00:37:48.900 --> 00:38:12.599
She's actually the only one that I really fought because she's just too warm and soft. and everything we know about the wonderful and talented verity and from Janet Jake Porter, who most of us have met when we were young children, who was best mates of the, and other persons in the business, like, you know, what she did to the creator of Rock Follies, and then became, um, verity was never a puff piece.

567
00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:13.559
She was never soft.

568
00:38:13.619 --> 00:38:15.539
So the little moments of stealiness.

569
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:16.980
No, really, we do know this.

570
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:22.920
No, I know she's not soft, but there's actually soft, and there's speaking in it with a soft voice and carrying a big stick kind of soft.

571
00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:24.780
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly.

572
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:25.440
No, exactly.

573
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.380
And I think she was more of that kind of mole.

574
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:29.820
She was very strong.

575
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:30.900
I won't say hard.

576
00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:34.920
I wish to be respectful, but talking to women, I know.

577
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:43.619
Well, and we know women who have worked in the industry either on the sidelines with her or who have friends who developed these things and verity was not a gentle person.

578
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:47.219
The reason she succeeded is because of all the reasons that Simon said.

579
00:38:47.340 --> 00:39:05.940
I don't know if we've ever mentioned this on the podcast, but doesn't she come to everyone's attention as a production assistant on a show called Underground, which was going out live, and one of the main actors died during the, during the broadcast and she managed to keep it going?

580
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:07.440
Despite this.

581
00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:08.400
That's right.

582
00:39:08.460 --> 00:39:09.239
Yeah, yeah.

583
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.739
I remember this story.

584
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:12.659
I'm just looking it up Yeah, that's right.

585
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.679
She's Sidney Newman's assistance over at ITV or whatever.

586
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.079
Yeah, where she'd worked with Jackie Hill. true friendship.

587
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.300
Yeah, an actual genuine real friendship is.

588
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:22.800
I mean, she was 28 when she got this job.

589
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:24.360
It's incredible, yeah.

590
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:25.559
I mean, now, even now.

591
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:27.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

592
00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:43.619
And it's pretty impressive to think about the kind of person she would have had to have been to have made her way in the BBC at that time. like Patty Russell, another incredible woman who, I think, was the only female director on staff until Julia Smith came out.

593
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:48.960
And it makes you wonder, although verity is clearly whip smart and forthright.

594
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:57.420
Was she brittle, and that got her as far as she went, or did she have to become brittle to make her way in the BBC.

595
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:58.980
She was already pretty strong.

596
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:02.760
She was sex from Granada after 6 months for being a mouthy young woman.

597
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:04.619
So yeah.

598
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:08.760
But don't forget, she got 6 0 levels at Rodine, and then went to the University of Paris.

599
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:09.599
Wasn't that Rada?

600
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:11.699
Same difference.

601
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:17.159
But yeah, no, and her dad was a very successful Jewish accountant. much like our other hero of the podcast, Joan Collins.

602
00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:18.599
I'm joking.

603
00:40:18.659 --> 00:40:24.960
So yeah, she came up with a sense of if you want to take on the British establishment and the class system, you're going to have to be extraordinary in every way.

604
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:26.940
It's another Thatcher principle, isn't it?

605
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:28.260
And you're going to have to beat them at their own game.

606
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:34.199
Richard Martin said that he broke his finger once, slamming it down on the desk telling Verity Lambert to bugger off.

607
00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:37.320
And he said, he said she came right back at me.

608
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:38.280
That's why I loved her.

609
00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:41.940
That conjures so many pictures.

610
00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:45.360
He was a very interesting man.

611
00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:52.559
He didn't have very nice things to say about David Whitaker either, but you know, at the end of the day, you wonder, is the problem with everyone else?

612
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:58.860
We look at Richard's stories as they appear on screen and we look at everyone else around him and yeah, all's fair, but yeah.

613
00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:18.599
Is there anyone that you feel was underserved by this?

614
00:41:18.659 --> 00:41:20.699
We've mentioned David Whittaker.

615
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:21.900
But Jackie Hill.

616
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:22.559
Yeah?

617
00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:23.039
Yeah.

618
00:41:23.099 --> 00:41:32.219
I mean, there's not that much time, but yes, it is, there's a great tragedy about Jackie Hill, isn't there, where we can never be sure.

619
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:35.639
Little fan she knew how powerful her...

620
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:36.480
Well, I don't know.

621
00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:46.500
I mean, we know a lot of fanboys from the early 90s who would would pay homage to her and, you know, worship the feat and she would give them DVD copies of stories that you just couldn't get.

622
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:47.940
Actually, no one in Sydney.

623
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.079
You've got a listen.

624
00:41:49.139 --> 00:41:50.340
So and she she got it.

625
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:58.440
But I also think that she was professional enough and hopefully aware of her own talent enough that she saw it as another job.

626
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:03.059
But I honestly don't believe the show would be here if it wasn't for her in it.

627
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:08.579
No, I also think that the love of Jackie Hills Barbara is something that's developed over the years, not just because of her death.

628
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:13.440
I just think it's something that's appreciated more in the 21st century than it was in the 20th. yeah At the time.

629
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.820
I'm not saying we didn't like it.

630
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.099
I think it was just all too, it was just too mysterious.

631
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:23.820
We have to remember, yes, there were illicit copies of these VHS going around that you could barely see or hear when you watch them.

632
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:27.300
But the vast majority of fans did not have access.

633
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:34.679
And it's only in the very early 90s when things start getting released on VHS that and BSB Sky Bean all that kind of stuff start.

634
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:36.239
Yeah, she died in what, 96?

635
00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:36.840
93?

636
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.239
No 93, it was before the it was before the 30th anniversary.

637
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:40.079
So it's exactly.

638
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:40.920
See, it's quite early.

639
00:42:40.980 --> 00:42:47.159
So she's effectively, she's one of those things that's discovered, you know, rather like the fact that the people fighters actually isn't the worst story ever.

640
00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:48.239
Well, you know, kind of.

641
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:57.900
But it also tracks fandom in the as gay fandom rose, Jackie Hill's reputation moves from fantastic to fabulous.

642
00:42:57.960 --> 00:42:59.940
And so that's why she becomes iconic.

643
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:03.599
Yeah, as we come of age, so does her reputation.

644
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:14.579
And there is that thing of getting, yeah, certainly young gay men looking for, and let's not even go into the psych of it, but looking for a woman who plays a strong person in the John Crawford mould.

645
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:16.619
And she's practically unique in that regard in the program.

646
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:18.780
I also think she's the best one on screen.

647
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:28.679
She elevates and ties Bill's performance together and knits it into a workable shape and every scene she's in with him at some of the best scenes in the 1st series.

648
00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:29.340
Yeah, definitely.

649
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:43.079
I was going to say that Jackie and William Russell were cast early because they were effectively the leads and the other characters developed into stronger roles as it went along or devolved as Susan did.

650
00:43:43.139 --> 00:43:50.460
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things too, that is clear that Bill into a rat infested pit of screaming.

651
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:56.039
Well, Hartnell's the sort of titular character, but he's not the main character when it starts.

652
00:43:56.099 --> 00:44:07.260
And so not only is he doing sort of 40 weak years or longer, but suddenly he's the main character who is saying all the lines, which is not really what he signs up for.

653
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:23.400
I mean, we talked about this on an FT many moons ago where if you're looking at co-leads in Doctor Who, the only time there has ever been a true co-lead for Doctor Who is William Russell, because Ian is clearly the lead character along with the doctor.

654
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:43.440
And as fabulous as Jackie Hill is, and as wonderful as Barbara is, and as key to the action and those early episodes, it goes back to what we were saying about the stuffiness of the BBC and for want of a better word patriarchy in this story, in that Jackie Hill clearly was not as valued by the BBC as William Russell and William Hartnell.

655
00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:54.360
So when you have the salary negotiations, the edict comes down from the BBC high-ups, give Bill Hartner what he wants, give William Russell what he wants, Jackie Hill is disposable if she won't accept these terms.

656
00:44:54.420 --> 00:45:00.119
And you just think that is so far divorced from the weight of what they brought to the program.

657
00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:02.460
She was every bit as integral to it.

658
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.380
It's just not the way that things work then.

659
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:24.719
I don't know whether this is a bit of invented Peter Haning apocrypha, but the 1st Radio Times cover, which is for Marco Polo, has Mark Eden with heart on it. apparently, according to that telling of the story, William Russell was livid, that he was not on the cover of the radio times instead of Mark Eden because he regarded himself as the leading man of the show.

660
00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:25.920
Yeah, understandable.

661
00:45:25.980 --> 00:45:28.380
Which is probably what was sold to him at the time.

662
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:30.900
Well, he came in as a leading man.

663
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:32.639
That's what was salty in his role.

664
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:35.699
He'd been the lead in Adventures of Lancelot a few years before.

665
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:36.539
Exactly, yes.

666
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:39.119
And to fantastic. that recently, actually, yes.

667
00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:45.119
And let's not forget that he was not like cast as like the young lead because he was almost 40 when he was cast.

668
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:49.440
So he wasn't like some 25 year old whose 1st job it was and he was like the young action man.

669
00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:50.760
He was an established actor.

670
00:45:50.820 --> 00:46:01.199
Oh, yes, he'd been in films like the man who, the man who wasn't there, the one about where they drop a dead body into the Mediterranean during the Second World War with some invented plans to try and put the Nazis.

671
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.639
Is that the man that wasn't there or the man?

672
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:04.079
The man who haunted himself.

673
00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:05.639
I was going to say, but he's in that.

674
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:07.619
He's actually in that as a young RAF pilot.

675
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:08.460
Right.

676
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:09.900
Yeah, his career started really early.

677
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:12.480
He is the BBC's affordable Roger Moore.

678
00:46:12.539 --> 00:46:14.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

679
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.619
Well, I mean, the doctor's a character part.

680
00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:18.000
He's not the leading man at all.

681
00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:21.179
He's the crazy old man who gets them into scratch.

682
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:21.719
Legitimate.

683
00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:23.760
It's a legitimate old man.

684
00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:24.659
Not variety.

685
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.460
But going back to what you were saying, what you were asking about who gets the raw end of the deal.

686
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:30.719
Not so much.

687
00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:34.860
We've talked about David Whittaker, but some of the cameos, there are some cameos missing.

688
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:39.360
You know, we have Gene Marsh and Anika in the in the farewell party.

689
00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:40.380
Where's Peter Purpose?

690
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:43.139
Was he just not available or is he actually somewhere on the cutting room floor?

691
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:52.500
I think he might be on the cutting room floor because I have a memory of them doing one of those flashbulb scenes outside television centre, which has Peter Purvis in it, in his celestial 20s.

692
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:53.699
Yes, it is.

693
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:56.460
Yes, and Dodo with the O red singer.

694
00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:57.119
Yeah, yeah.

695
00:46:57.179 --> 00:46:59.639
Dodo absolutely got the amount of screen time that she deserved.

696
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:02.280
No, I'm not talking about Peter Purvis.

697
00:47:02.340 --> 00:47:04.860
I'm talking about the real one, the cameos, by the way.

698
00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:06.119
No, no, Peter Perth's not in it.

699
00:47:06.179 --> 00:47:07.320
It might have not been about.

700
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:16.019
Mark Eden, in that shot, we can see Anna Kerr and the wonderful Gene Marsh looking exactly like, yeah, expect Sarah Kingdom to look like, not after being dragged through the time.

701
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.260
Just a few seconds from the end of Dalacast.

702
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.380
I don't know why these women even put up with us.

703
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:26.219
But there is a much older fella behind them.

704
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:29.699
It's not Toby Haydoke in a wig because he's at the bar.

705
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:33.420
But there is, but there is... behind the failing to serve wars.

706
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:34.440
Yeah, yeah.

707
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:37.559
And I was trying to think, it's okay, it's not Mark Eaton, because we know what Mark Eaton looks like.

708
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:38.400
Do we know who he was?

709
00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:44.940
It is in the list, but it just spins. isn't Mark Eden Donald Batherstock at the start talking to...

710
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:45.599
Of course he is.

711
00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:46.079
Yes he is.

712
00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:46.559
Oh, wow.

713
00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:47.760
Oh, I see, yes.

714
00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:48.059
Yes.

715
00:47:48.059 --> 00:47:48.300
Yes.

716
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:48.780
Wonderful.

717
00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:52.380
It would have been wonderful if they'd had a radio times cover and given it to him.

718
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:58.260
Now, is there a cameo that everybody noticed just after Carol Anne Ford's cameo?

719
00:47:58.320 --> 00:47:59.280
No.

720
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.219
The little, so...

721
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:10.860
The camera pans into through the window into the living room and a little boy is watching the end of the Daleks.

722
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:15.360
He turns around and it is Connor from Heartstopper.

723
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:16.980
Oh, wow.

724
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:19.559
And once you realise it's him, it's so opposite.

725
00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:20.400
It's so obvious.

726
00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:23.460
He turns around and we both went, that's Kit Connell from Heartstopping.

727
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:24.780
And we looked it up and yes, it was.

728
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.420
Yeah, it is like this little boy and it's him.

729
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.280
Yeah, Doctor Who turned us all gay.

730
00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:52.019
I think that given the way the story is structured around Hartnall and his performance and his difficulties in the role, It's understandable, but a bit of a shame that Maureen O'Brien doesn't get a bigger deal because, I mean, it is very clear that she was kind of keeping him going.

731
00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:59.099
And it was, it was her departure, perhaps more than Carol Anne's departure that had a huge effect on him, I think.

732
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:04.320
So in some respects, you could argue that that's emerging of characters.

733
00:49:04.380 --> 00:49:09.659
He's hit hard by her departure by Carol Anne's departure in this, whereas in reality, it's...

734
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:11.699
It's kind of a series of blues, isn't it?

735
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:18.300
The 1st real blow is William Russell, Jackie Hill and Verity Land, but all leaving very basically.

736
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:25.320
Yeah, which is something that Bill might not have recovered from, except for the fact that Maureen O'Brien and Peter Purvis were actually very good friends with him.

737
00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:26.579
He relied on them and trusted them.

738
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:31.320
So they kept him going a little bit longer all through that tumult with John Wiles, the new producer.

739
00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:35.940
Well, Maureen has only got one story with John Wells, doesn't she?

740
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.019
Yeah, Maureen does.

741
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:41.880
Well, yeah, I know, but verity is effectively gone by the end of the chase, effectively.

742
00:49:41.940 --> 00:49:42.480
Oh, really?

743
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:42.900
Yes.

744
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:49.559
And so there's a couple more stories, but then it's really the departure of Maureen and then the departure of Peter Purvis.

745
00:49:49.619 --> 00:50:01.019
And so by the time you hit the war machines, as we see in the story, Bill is just adrift, he's got no one around him who loves him or caters to him because obviously Michael Craz and Anika, they came in.

746
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:06.300
And, you know, this was someone they didn't know, they hadn't worked with, they were keen to make their own way.

747
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.059
And so there's just less tolerance of his foibles.

748
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:12.000
Yeah, I mean, Anika doesn't like Bill.

749
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.320
And she will still say things about him being difficult to work with.

750
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:24.719
She's the source of the story where, isn't she where Bill has a driver and they've, they all go into a pub for lunch or dinner.

751
00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:30.539
And the driver, and the driver's left outside the car and Anarchist says, oh, he should come in too and he's, and Bill says, no, he's only the driver.

752
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:31.739
Yeah, yeah.

753
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:35.820
And, you know, like, it's hard to unpick the truth of that.

754
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:39.960
Yeah, she obviously had a bad experience of Bill.

755
00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:42.960
It was kind of sweet to see her at the party.

756
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:52.980
And given that, it's remarkable, in fact, what's remarkable about the story is that Warris and Verity managed to win Bill Round so comprehensively.

757
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:56.340
I think it's also because at the end of the day, he wasn't getting any other work.

758
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:57.239
Yeah.

759
00:50:57.239 --> 00:50:58.559
Two, there's that.

760
00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:01.860
That's true, but they obviously made the effort.

761
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:07.260
They were visionaries and they knew that they could deliver something and they brought him on board with their vision.

762
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:10.380
They took the time with him, which is what someone in his position needed.

763
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:21.480
Whereas, you know, and there's no fault to be laid here, when people like Michael and Anika and John Wiles came in, they didn't take the time clearly to understand him and try to get him on board with what they were doing.

764
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:25.679
For Warris and for Verity.

765
00:51:25.739 --> 00:51:27.960
That was their big break effectively.

766
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:31.019
They had the opportunity to take it further.

767
00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:38.219
They took the opportunity and made something wonderful out of it, whereas the other people were inheriting something.

768
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:39.420
They weren't making it.

769
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:40.860
It wasn't a new thing.

770
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:46.920
They needed Bill Hartnall and they knew why they needed him, whereas I don't think anyone understood that in the later years.

771
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:48.480
And you know, time had moved on.

772
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:50.460
The show had moved on.

773
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:52.260
Maybe it had moved on beyond Bill Hartnell.

774
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:56.219
We could have had John Wiles as a sort of fantastic pandemic villain.

775
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:57.719
Yeah.

776
00:51:57.780 --> 00:51:58.320
Exactly.

777
00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:00.480
You don't needed one scene.

778
00:52:00.539 --> 00:52:07.800
We could have had the scene where he suggested to Bill that they go out onto the surface of the moon and, you know, the air was blue within minutes, apparently.

779
00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:10.739
I think it's the right length.

780
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:18.300
I mean, you could have made it 15 or 20 minutes longer and included a bit more in O'Brien and included a bit of John Wildes. and it does everything it needs to do.

781
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:21.480
It turns it more into a docudrama. very long.

782
00:52:21.539 --> 00:52:22.619
And that comes back to the question.

783
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:24.000
It wasn't made for us.

784
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.219
I know, it was constantly challenging.

785
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:30.360
Well, yeah, but it wasn't because it's, you know, it's very expensive.

786
00:52:30.420 --> 00:52:32.219
When they when they sold it.

787
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.539
When they sold it, they didn't they said it wasn't made for us, but as soon as they started making it.

788
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:52.739
But isn't that the brilliant tightrope that it walks, is that it is meant to be a mass entertainment program and it absolutely tells you the story in a digestible and entertaining way and gives you any insight into the people who actually made Doctor Who something special in what it was.

789
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.920
But it also is a love letter to the fans.

790
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:58.860
And to pull off that balancing act is something incredible.

791
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:07.320
And that's why people like Wiles and Wizika and O'Brien don't make it in there because they have to pair it down.

792
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.840
And I think that it actually manages to hit that balance perfectly well.

793
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:18.300
But they play to the fans perfectly by all those convention and interviews.

794
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:25.260
Yes. anecdotes, which have been learned by rote, you know, no EMs, bug eyed monsters. you know, all that sort of stuff.

795
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:30.059
They are all utilised to tell the broader audience what it was about.

796
00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:35.400
Well, Lime Grove, they're complaining about Lime Grove, Studio D, 4 cuts per episode.

797
00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:37.019
Yes, all of that.

798
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:41.219
Or the fact that all of that stuff manages to make it in there is extraordinary.

799
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:51.659
And Mark Gates is having fun with that line about no BM is where he says no brains in jars because Doctor Who will do that, not once, but twice.

800
00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:52.440
But what's interesting?

801
00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:58.260
And verity was always, you know, told the anecdote about, you know, Sidney Newman holder into his office about the fact that, what did I say?

802
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:03.179
No robots, no bug-eyed monsters and all that sort of stuff and she gives the same in this.

803
00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:06.059
She gives the same defence of it, you know, they're not bug-eyed monsters.

804
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:10.500
A civilisation that's had a nuclear war and they've had to retreat into these shells and blah, blah, blah, blah.

805
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:15.840
And it is actually, again, why Doctor Who is so great is because they're not just monsters.

806
00:54:15.900 --> 00:54:17.639
They're not just robots.

807
00:54:17.699 --> 00:54:19.920
There's another layer of depth to them.

808
00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:22.380
And I think that's what this helps to underline.

809
00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:27.900
And Mark turns that moment into a character beat for verity for creating verity as a character.

810
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:32.340
And not just the fact that she stands up to Sydney and, you know, she tells him what's what.

811
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:33.599
It's when she's leaving.

812
00:54:33.659 --> 00:54:39.539
She turns around to him after she's just been hauled over the coals and says, by the way, I want to repeat. no one saw it.

813
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:41.039
And that's a parting shot.

814
00:54:41.099 --> 00:54:43.380
And so you think she's not cowed by this at all.

815
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:51.239
She also stands up to him about the title sequence as well, which he thinks is too scary and she says, no, it's brilliant.

816
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:52.199
And the music.

817
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:53.280
Yeah, yeah.

818
00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:57.300
Because there are, you know, because they are what was frightening.

819
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.159
That was what was frightening.

820
00:54:59.219 --> 00:55:00.300
People were scared by the music.

821
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:02.159
Like when it 1st came out.

822
00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:03.659
It's weird and strange.

823
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:07.679
It sort of demarcates this weird 25 minutes of TV.

824
00:55:07.739 --> 00:55:09.539
Yes, from what's around it.

825
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:10.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

826
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:28.019
My big disappointment, if you're talking about cuts to the floor, all of that analogue tape up and down the corridors, I really would have liked that extra 12 seconds of Delia Derbyshire, Hodgson.

827
00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:32.699
She is extraordinary and there isn't an electronic musician in the UK.

828
00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:34.679
Even craft folk knew who she was.

829
00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:36.000
She's really important.

830
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:45.360
And there was more of, I think, a comparison between her and verity as, you know, forthright fashionable young women making their way in the BBC that could have been made.

831
00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:47.039
It's a shame it was left on the cutting room floor.

832
00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:49.199
Making their way or forcing their way.

833
00:55:49.260 --> 00:55:49.920
Yeah.

834
00:55:49.920 --> 00:56:00.360
I want to talk about my favourite scene, which is Verity's departure, where we go from the surface of the planet Vortis where they're inexplicably having the party because who cares?

835
00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:07.739
And we go into the TARDIS for her to talk about why she's leaving.

836
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:18.480
And there are moments in this where I tear up, obviously, originally when Matt Smith appeared and saluted him, even though he is so, so terribly green screened in.

837
00:56:18.539 --> 00:56:19.619
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

838
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:21.000
But again, he's not really there.

839
00:56:21.059 --> 00:56:24.599
You know, he's not, but anyway, I'll talk about this later.

840
00:56:24.659 --> 00:56:32.519
But it's, I think that that's a companion departure scene and it's, it takes place on the Tartar set.

841
00:56:32.579 --> 00:56:37.440
And so she's telling Doctor Who that she's not going to stay with him any longer.

842
00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:43.019
And I think it's so beautifully done. she kisses him and goes, doesn't she?

843
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:45.420
Yeah, it's proper lump in your throat, material.

844
00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:49.260
And it's a decent departure you've seen as opposed to, I just met someone.

845
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:50.400
I'm gonna go get married now.

846
00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:53.940
Oh, it would have been brilliant if they push Verity out in our lock.

847
00:56:54.900 --> 00:57:03.659
They just lock the doors and tell her she has to get on with her life. get on this trampoline bounce away.

848
00:57:04.739 --> 00:57:08.340
And of course, the other one is Matt's final appearance.

849
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:09.659
Yeah, that was kind of nice.

850
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:11.219
I mean, that I mean, I liked it.

851
00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:13.800
It's good, but I don't know whether it was necessary.

852
00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:15.900
No, absolutely necessary.

853
00:57:16.019 --> 00:57:17.699
I absolutely loved it.

854
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:19.920
I think it is the perfect concluding moment.

855
00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:30.780
It's Bill Hartnall realising that despite the fact that he's been on this wonderful journey, he's effectively been forced out of the role, he has set up something which will run and run and this will be his legacy.

856
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:32.880
It's the legacy that he never had and he's found it.

857
00:57:32.940 --> 00:57:40.500
And it's also the doctor's chance to go in there and salute him for making it possible as well.

858
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:43.139
Yes, it's it's actually not the 11th doctor.

859
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:43.980
It actually Matt Smith.

860
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:45.360
Yeah, if I can put it that way.

861
00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:52.079
Okay, I'm thinking it's the doctor, you know, it's like the doctor has Bill Hartnell to thank for his existence in a way.

862
00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:53.699
And the look on Matt's face.

863
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:57.300
I mean, Matt never doesn't deliver, but the look is so affecting.

864
00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:01.679
It's such kind of fondness and almost saluting him.

865
00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:03.000
It's beautiful.

866
00:58:03.059 --> 00:58:12.539
The only issue I have with it is it just nails it to the Matt Smith era as opposed to nailing it to eternity if it was, you have to have someone there to be the doctor.

867
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:14.820
Do you not think it's nailing at the end of the nursery?

868
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:16.619
So that's fine too. to the 50th.

869
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:16.860
Yeah.

870
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:21.239
But seeing out of context from the 50th anniversary is just like, why is why this guy?

871
00:58:21.300 --> 00:58:22.800
Yeah, why is somebody else?

872
00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:24.179
Yeah, where's Shooty?

873
00:58:24.239 --> 00:58:26.099
I suppose, yes. exactly.

874
00:58:26.159 --> 00:58:32.400
And I suppose that's why I, that's my only subtle problem with it, is it actually comes down to that fact.

875
00:58:32.460 --> 00:58:34.199
It makes it less timeless.

876
00:58:34.260 --> 00:58:36.539
The fact that it nails it to the 50th.

877
00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:42.480
And in fact, if you're going to nail it to the 50th, you're almost better at having Peter Capaldi standing there as the future, as...

878
00:58:42.539 --> 00:58:43.739
No, I have to disagree with that.

879
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:52.260
Well, I think the contrast between William Hartnell is the 1st doctor and Matt Smith is the youngest ever doctor leading it forward 50 years later is something useful.

880
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:53.579
Yep.

881
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:57.059
It's the only bit of magic. in it.

882
00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.820
And I suppose it can afford, we can afford a little bit.

883
00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:01.739
Mark Gatis is a bit literal, I think.

884
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:11.460
He wouldn't, I think, have written the scene that we imagined at the beginning where the doctor gets into the Tartar and sort of disappears at the end.

885
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:14.699
He just wouldn't do that, but this was enough magic.

886
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:21.659
Talking about Mark Gatis, again, we sort of mentioned towards the beginning of this, that this is the best thing he's ever done for Doctor Who.

887
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:31.739
And I wonder whether it's partly because, you know, he's writing this as a fan in the way that you can't really write the actual program as a fan without making it terrible.

888
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.059
He's writing from what he knows.

889
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:34.500
He's writing waiters.

890
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:40.380
But I'm actually wondering also too whether his Doctor Who episodes are not actually what he really wants to do in the episodes.

891
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:43.500
It's kind of a bit of a compromise with the showrunner of the day.

892
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:45.360
This is just a natural thing that happens.

893
00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:52.380
And so there's always that conflict, that bit of, it means they don't quite sit as nicely as this does, which is his baby.

894
00:59:52.440 --> 01:00:06.659
The one thing that I love about it, and this is just a small thing is the way it does end with the clip from the actual clip of Hart from Dalek Invasion of Earth, which for any fan of our age, who was experiencing the 5 doctors for the 1st time.

895
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.179
Yes, tying the 50th into the 20th.

896
01:00:10.019 --> 01:00:10.440
But it does.

897
01:00:10.500 --> 01:00:15.960
It oddly ties the 50th into the original, but also into the 20th because of that because that for many of us.

898
01:00:16.019 --> 01:00:18.780
I mean, unless you lived in Britain with, you know, the fire faces repeat.

899
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:36.239
This is the only bit of Hartnell that we ever saw in our fan youth was this fragment, which starts the 5 doctors, and it's forever associated with an anniversary, and it's almost more in the 5 doctors than it is in Dalek Invasion of Earth, if you know what I mean.

900
01:00:36.300 --> 01:00:41.340
And I think that's a lovely way to finish it off rather than finding another speech is to just use that speech again.

901
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:47.039
I mean, let's not kid ourselves than if the massacre part 4 existed, that wouldn't have been the speech that was used.

902
01:00:47.099 --> 01:01:00.599
Yeah, I think that's a magnificent speech and I think it is a slight shame. that this production sees Bill unable to deliver that speech, where he really, really nails it.

903
01:01:00.659 --> 01:01:03.539
It's so good. about the massacre.

904
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:04.980
Arguably.

905
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.900
I thought I thought he is.

906
01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:09.360
I mean, he's not stumbling because that is actually the one of the inaccuracies.

907
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:10.860
He doesn't stumble over speech.

908
01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:13.500
Nearly as much, but I think he does stumble over it a bit, doesn't he?

909
01:01:13.559 --> 01:01:14.639
He says, in the massacre.

910
01:01:14.699 --> 01:01:15.719
He says Madison.

911
01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:16.619
Yes, okay.

912
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:19.139
But that's consistent with that's consistent.

913
01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:19.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

914
01:01:44.340 --> 01:01:47.400
Well, new listener, that's all we have time for.

915
01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:54.780
Till now, we'll be vacuuming just a couple of days to see how the eighth doctor has been getting on in the night of the doctor.

916
01:01:54.960 --> 01:02:13.679
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flight through entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Intetera, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

917
01:02:14.099 --> 01:02:23.940
Until next time, remember, it all started out as a mild curiosity in a junkyard, and now it's turned out to be quite a great spirit of adventure, don't you think?

918
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:26.400
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

919
01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:27.539
Good night.

920
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:28.199
Bye bye.

921
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:29.039
Bye.

922
01:02:29.099 --> 01:02:30.539
Oh, still sobbing.

923
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:30.900
Bye.

924
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:43.920
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Greg Miller, Simon Moore, and Richard Stone.

925
01:02:43.980 --> 01:02:46.139
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb.

926
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:52.800
These episode on the set of the Reign of Terror was recorded on the 10th of July 2022 and released on the 20th of November.

927
01:02:55.860 --> 01:03:04.980
Keep an eye on your podcatcher this week as Flight through Entirety celebrates Doctor Who's 50th and 59th anniversaries with 4 new episodes over the next 7 days.

928
01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:06.780
See you back here on Tuesday.

929
01:03:19.500 --> 01:03:21.420
Do we wanna talk more?

930
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:22.139
I don't know.

931
01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:22.860
Yeah I don't mind.

932
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:24.840
We can drop about that.

933
01:03:24.900 --> 01:03:25.860
Yeah, okay, drop it back.

934
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:29.159
I think David Bradley is...

935
01:03:29.820 --> 01:03:31.739
I think David Bradley absolutely nails it.

936
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:44.579
As we've discussed earlier about the, you know, that bit from that interview post-10th planet when he's doing the pantomime or whatever and the gruffness and the and the and the seriousness there, he really gets that.

937
01:03:44.699 --> 01:03:50.760
He manages to get an entire performance out of effectively, one bit of film, footage that exists of heart and all.

938
01:03:50.880 --> 01:04:01.980
My favourite sequences of him is when Sydney's telling him that the time is up and he's going to be moved on and then the subsequent sequence with his wife in front of the fire.

939
01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:05.039
I mean, it's just so... don't want to go.

940
01:04:05.099 --> 01:04:05.820
I don't want to go.

941
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:06.239
Yeah.

942
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:06.840
Yeah.

943
01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:08.519
It's really beautiful.

944
01:04:08.579 --> 01:04:11.280
Okay, I'm name dropping all over the place in this episode.

945
01:04:11.340 --> 01:04:12.059
That is your function.

946
01:04:12.119 --> 01:04:14.039
But I've worked with David Bradley.

947
01:04:14.099 --> 01:04:18.300
I worked him on with him on the Granada series Reckless, and he is such, yeah, he was.

948
01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:19.739
He played Robson Green's father.

949
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:23.280
And he is such a warm and lovely man.

950
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:27.960
And the fact that he brings that gruffness to Bill Hartnell is a proper performance.

951
01:04:28.019 --> 01:04:34.320
I mean, he's he's 17 years older than Bill Hartnall in the role, which is quite amazing when you think about it.

952
01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:38.400
Simon, you and I are 5 years younger than William Hartnall when he's cast in the role.

953
01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:39.960
I mean, you just can't really get your head around that.

954
01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:43.559
And he's also about 5 feet taller than William Martin.

955
01:04:43.619 --> 01:04:50.280
But he does such a great job of capturing the essence, not only of the doctor, but of the man.

956
01:04:50.340 --> 01:04:52.679
And that's that's a difficult thing to do in a role.

957
01:04:52.739 --> 01:04:55.500
I also find it a very respectful performance.

958
01:04:55.559 --> 01:05:16.320
He's very keen to portray Bill in all of his shades and not to be disrespectful or to make it into a humourous thing as happened when next he played the part on TV when he was super sexist and a bit dim in my view.

959
01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.579
Yeah, yeah.

960
01:05:17.639 --> 01:05:21.539
I mean, we'll talk eventually about what's going on there.

961
01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:27.059
But it was a, he was a good choice to play the 1st doctor in twice upon a time.

962
01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:34.440
Yeah, and twice upon a time is lampooning the doctor for better or for worse, whereas, you know, this doesn't lampoon William Hart.

963
01:05:34.500 --> 01:05:36.780
No, it's possibly a difference in the writer.

964
01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:38.099
Yes, at least of that.

965
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:38.519
Yeah.

966
01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:41.219
Mark Gatas has a heavy connection to both.

967
01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:51.480
In recent years is he was in another show called The Strain where he's basically fighting vampires, so I just like to imagine it as William Hartnell Vampire Hunter.

968
01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:58.440
But he sort of works in, like, he's in Broadchurch and it's in Broadchurch, rather like Richard Herndell in that like 7 episode.

969
01:05:58.500 --> 01:05:59.760
Knebrocks.

970
01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:00.239
Yeah.

971
01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:03.179
You've got you've got a kind of an audition piece.

972
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:04.920
You came in too quick with that name.

973
01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:13.559
Yeah, so you don't want to wait for them to bring round the Mangand.

974
01:06:13.559 --> 01:06:16.679
What were you saying?

975
01:06:16.739 --> 01:06:18.059
think I said it.

976
01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:19.800
What do we think?

977
01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:24.719
I'm good Okay. good discussion Yeah.

978
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:26.400
It's just beautiful.

979
01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:27.659
Oh, sorry, can I just have one more line?

980
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:28.440
You can edit this out.

981
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:32.760
This for me still remains the real 50th anniversary special.

982
01:06:32.820 --> 01:06:37.440
This is the external facing 50th anniversary special.

983
01:06:37.500 --> 01:06:43.679
The five-ish doctors is the internal 50th anniversary, special, and then they do this other thing as well.

984
01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:48.119
And it's all tied up with when you originally watched it.

985
01:06:48.179 --> 01:06:57.539
So I watched this with a group of fans and to a one, we were misty-eyed at the end of it because this is just, this is our story.

986
01:06:57.599 --> 01:06:59.699
This is the story of the program we love.

987
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:07.320
It's the story of the program that we grew up with, and we're watching in real time how it, how it became that thing.

988
01:07:07.380 --> 01:07:08.460
It's quite incredible.

989
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:11.280
Yeah, that was good.

990
01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:14.099
Yeah, you're upset that I'm saying.

991
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:15.659
Do you not like Day of the Doctor?

992
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:16.980
I think day of the doctor is fantastic.

993
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:18.119
I think it's a bit ordinary.

994
01:07:18.179 --> 01:07:18.480
Do you?

995
01:07:18.539 --> 01:07:19.380
It's a really good idea.

996
01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:19.860
Yeah, yeah.

997
01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:21.960
But this is the 50th anniversary for me.

998
01:07:22.019 --> 01:07:22.260
Yes.