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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:51:57

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Hello, dear listen, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast, whose origin story will be the

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subject of a TV movie sometime later this year.

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Johnny Lee Miller is playing me.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Greg, and I'm a much scrunched and abused hanky soaked in piss

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and vinegar for this one.

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Well, it's the 21st of November 2013, and in 2 days' time, Doctor

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Who will face his greatest and most terrifying enemy, his 50th

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birthday.

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So let's turn the urometer all the way back to 1963 to see how the

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legend begins as we discuss Mark Gatis's anniversary, special and

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adventure in Spain and time.

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It's funny, this one, because I hadn't seen it maybe since the

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year of its broadcast or something after.

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It's nearly been 10 years since I watched this.

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And I was actually surprised by how much I enjoyed it to be

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honest.

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You were surprised.

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I wasn't surprised.

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I was not surprised.

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I'm not a big fan of the sort of biopic documentary thing because

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if it properly tracks someone's life, it tends to be kind of just

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a bunch of things that happen and we don't really learn anything

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just like life, you know. history.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I cannot change even if you try, apparently.

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But I think this is given a sort of unity, I guess, by making it

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the story of Bill Hartnell more than anything else.

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Yes, it starts as the story of verity and then quickly becomes the

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story of Bill Hartnell and it's not a biopic per se, because it's

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about events rather than a person, per se.

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And usually these kind of things are reasonably fictionalised.

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And of course, we can discuss the various historical inaccuracies

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in due course.

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Or accuracies.

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We get to that.

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Well, no, there are many, there are lots of accuracies, but of

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course there are also some things that they, you know, change.

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But I think not only is it so heartwarming and beautiful, it is

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also structured in a way which is a logical story.

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It creates a 90 minute movie, which isn't just here's a series of

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stuff and oh, we're at the end of 90 minutes and so we'll stop

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here.

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Yeah, that's right.

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If it had been a docudrama, I think it would have been a lesser

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thing, so...

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Yeah, and well, maybe not, but it would have just been a retelling

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of the events, like you said.

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And in 2010, there was the thing which paved the way for this

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which was the road to Coronation Street, which was Coronation

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Street's 50th anniversary sort of making of program.

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And I think that was more of a docudrama and it wasn't quite as

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entertaining, although it was successful.

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This works because it's not just the story of the genesis of the

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program.

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It's the story of the people involved and the fact that Bill

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Hartnell, like we mentioned, was an actor in the Twilight of his

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career, and it was almost his redemption story, if you want.

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But it is also the story of pioneers.

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And so what Mark zeros in on is the fact that verity was obviously

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a young female producer in a corporation which was full of middle

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aged man.

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Warris was a young Anglo-Indian director.

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In fact, the youngest drama director that the BBC has ever had

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making his way.

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And you want the stories of these people.

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You want to know why Doctor Who was pioneering and innovative

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effort, and it's tied up in the fact that these were young, go

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getting people.

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And it's also a love letter.

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It's a love letter to Doctor Who, it's a love letter to the 60s

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generally.

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It's a love letter to television centre, particularly.

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Yeah, to the founding powers of Vidal So soon.

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The rock bed on which this is built.

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So it manages to do the whole love letter thing without being too

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cheesy.

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It walks the right side of the line.

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It's astonishing how little crunchy fromage there is on this, isn't

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there?

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Did you know if Gauges could be this good?

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Oh, this is clearly the very best thing he has ever written for

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Doctor Who.

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It's Doctor Who stories.

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I think, can I have a bit more of this, please?

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beautifully done.

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This felt, I don't know, I like to hear from Greg, but this felt

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to me, as a round table question, a really thin premise, and I'm

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looking at this thinking much like Doctor Who.

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Well, exactly.

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No, that's exactly right, because I'm looking at it thinking, how

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and this is the case I know, and Peter, you know, this, of all

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narrative drama, is how will you engage with thin facts that on

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the surface no one will be interested in unless they're fans?

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Well, you make it about the human drama.

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You make it about the fallen gods, you make it about the rise.

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I mean, this is really a Greek tragedy, isn't it?

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You've got Athena rising over there and then you've got the old

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gone, you've got, he's hardly Zeus, isn't he?

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But you've got poor old Prometheus crumbling to ashes on as Bill

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Arnell on the right.

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And then, I suppose, Carol Anne Ford is the Deus X Makina

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suppose.

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You also reorder things a bit because some of the historical

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problems are bringing the emotions forward to the right part of

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the story rather than where they actually occurred in the real

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world.

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And collapsing characters together.

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Yeah, that's right.

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But I do like that Richard Martin and Warris Hussein are actually

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the same person, even though they're played by 2 actors in this.

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According to the script, it's still Wars.

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So, yeah, I think I think what it manages to do.

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And I guess it's that conceit where we start on Bill Hartnell

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driving to work on his last day of work.

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And is he where is he?

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That's uncommon.

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Yes, with his everlasting matches.

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Yes.

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The kiss to the Daleks novelisation is just gorgeous.

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Is it his way too, or is it his way back?

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No, no, he's on his way back.

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It's leaving after his last scene.

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And he could actually be on his way home in Kent.

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That is a path from the BBC television centre to Kent goes past

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Barnes Commons.

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And so having the policeman say, you know, you're in the way.

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Yeah.

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Which is a little bit on the nose.

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It's the most obvious thing.

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A magic ring. there's another bit there.

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Of course, what does the policeman do?

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He knocks 4 times on the car. didn't pick that one up.

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I didn't say that either.

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I mean, magic realism would have had Bill step into the police box

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but I like this.

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I like this one.

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Well, I suppose that could have been a choice rather than Matt

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Smith appear at the end and we'll get to that.

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You could have had him getting into the police box on Barnes

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Common. materializer.

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We're going to get to Matt Smith appearing, I'll need a Hanky

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right now.

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I guess I guess what it's doing is it tells the story of someone

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who is a bit of a miserable old bastard.

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And we see him famous, miserable pastor.

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And we see him being mean to his granddaughter Jessica, who we now

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know about.

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But as Brian said when we were watching it, he said, that was my

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grandfather.

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Yeah, his grandfather would speak to him.

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Mine as well.

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Yep.

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And that kind of brusque tone, you know, sit there, don't make a

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noise when I don't want you to make a noise.

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I'm reading the paper. watching the television or I'm having my

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scotch or whatever it is.

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Very, very typical.

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What it is, is it's a beautiful portrait of a man whose time has

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passed.

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His era has passed even in 1963, his way of doing things is being

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pushed aside.

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It's the kind of the 2nd World War generation, I suppose, that are

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now beginning replaced by the baby boomers.

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Like the theme of the idiot's lantern as well, which is the same

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kind of thing.

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Yeah, same kind of thing.

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So he learns to, you know, he becomes the doctor.

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He becomes Doctor Who, who is a silly, cuddly character. as we all

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observed, I think, when we went through this for flight through

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entirety, that he's actually much less grumpy than John Nathan

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Turner thought he was or Richard Herndle thought he was.

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His actually really lovely.

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So I assume that we've all seen the interview with Bill Hartnall

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that is in one of the DVDs, which they unearthed, where he's in

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the dressing room in a panther off 10 planet.

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And he this very much informs how he is depicted in this because

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that's a glimpse into Bill Hartnell, the man, which we don't

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have.

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Not fumbling, not stuttering.

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Yeah, and sort of and sort of small and tight and resentful of

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life.

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And in fact, one of his lines.

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One of his lines in this is drawn directly from that where he says

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I am a legitimate star of children theatre.

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That word legitimate, film and theatre.

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Not of television, because television, even having done the

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television.

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Not real.

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It's a bit of...

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Before we get all to that...

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You know, he spent over a decade living with Charles Hawtrey.

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No?

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Yeah, they shared digs on and off, but they were very, very good

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mates.

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So before we get... legitimate star of the theatre.

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Well, I suppose living with Charles, but Charles was completely

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effing mental.

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Now, he would actually, apparently he would set off fire alarm so

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he could get the fireman over and then he'd drop his knickers for

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them.

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Oh, God.

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That's it, much like this podcast.

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But if we just, if I can just expand on that point.

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It's not just the choice of words, which they get so right, and

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they're lifting it from that interview, which is probably the only

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decent length clip we have of Hartle being Hartle.

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The only primary source.

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It's not just that it's the delivery.

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The intonation.

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That's angry legitimate.

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Yeah, yeah, but it's not just the way he says that.

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It's everything he says during that interview.

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It's very hard edged and very army and very, you know, brusque.

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The whole thing.

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And that, I think, is what we see in the performance.

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And when he's dealing with that reporter who's there, he is almost

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like he believes that the reporter is a station below him.

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It's like treating like treating people badly in a restaurant

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which, in fact, he does in this episode.

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Yeah.

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He has a sense of class.

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Not necessarily just upper class, middle class, lower class, but

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in terms of almost caste system in terms of...

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You only work in a shop.

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It's Mr. Hartnell to you, et cetera. all that kind of stuff.

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Sunny boy.

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And then I guess what happens is the tragedy is twofold.

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One is his increasing illness, and then the other is the people

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that he loved and relied on, gradually disappearing from the

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show.

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One of the things we hear about all the time in Doctor Who is the

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team of people.

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And the team is being built and then it's being torn apart and

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built again, torn apart and towards the end, he's obviously not

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interested in building new teams.

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Yeah, especially not when they bring in a statuesque Scandinavian

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to play Ben.

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Far too tall.

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The Ben in this is so gay.

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It's unbelvable.

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But all those, all those repeated shots of the publicity shots

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being taken in the courtyard of television centre, which is

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actually, I think, from the 1st anniversary drinks that they have

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when the show's been sold to the Australia.

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That's that famous photograph of them all recently. with verity.

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Yeah.

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So it's just, obviously, it's not real, but it's actually quite

252
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:06.120
beautifully done the way David Bradley is less and less engaged. as

253
00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:07.379
each new cast arrives.

254
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.779
And by the time you get to Ben and Polly, he's just, he's actually

255
00:12:09.779 --> 00:12:10.320
just not there.

256
00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:11.519
Yeah, yeah.

257
00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.639
And the whole thing with that entire courtyard thing is it's a

258
00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:15.600
Panopticon, of course.

259
00:12:15.659 --> 00:12:18.120
So it's got a point in the middle where you can see everything

260
00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.059
around it, which is that television centre of thing that, sorry, I

261
00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:21.600
mentioned before.

262
00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:23.279
It's a lovely letter television centre.

263
00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:27.299
It's featured so prominently at a range of points and it's a very

264
00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:28.860
different appearance each time.

265
00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.799
Is television centre at this point?

266
00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:34.019
Like when does television centre get sold off?

267
00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:38.340
So this was the last drama that was ever shot at television centre

268
00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:41.460
and I believe that very soon after, like maybe within a month it

269
00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:44.519
was closed and was starting to be renovated into apartments.

270
00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:45.179
Yeah.

271
00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.519
So it is very definitely that, isn't it?

272
00:12:47.580 --> 00:12:50.279
I mean, there's no way that Mark Gatis isn't making it a love

273
00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:51.179
letter to...

274
00:12:51.179 --> 00:12:52.200
Oh, absolutely.

275
00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:53.820
Even though the show's not actually shot there.

276
00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:56.460
No. in the early days, but it's still home based.

277
00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:57.960
And you know, the production office isn't there.

278
00:12:58.019 --> 00:12:59.159
It's at threshold house, whatever.

279
00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:02.220
No, but I'm totally willing to let that go.

280
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:02.700
Oh, yes.

281
00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:07.620
Just all of those loving establishing shots of the horseshoe at

282
00:13:07.620 --> 00:13:11.279
night with the lights lit up and everything as a Doctor Who fan

283
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:14.159
when you were growing up, it was just this kind of far off mecca.

284
00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:17.879
It was like our Hollywood, where it were just, you know, make

285
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:21.539
these incredible adventures with mummies and maggots and things

286
00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:24.720
like that, and to actually see it, and to see it evokes so

287
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.759
beautifully, really tugs at the heartstrings.

288
00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:27.779
It does, yeah, yeah.

289
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:33.000
The 1st time that I went to London by myself where, you know, I

290
00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:36.899
was just spending time doing whatever it was that I wanted and it

291
00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:39.899
was, you know, 2008 or something. being interfered with my parents

292
00:13:39.899 --> 00:13:40.679
or partners.

293
00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:41.700
But not parents, partners.

294
00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:48.000
I did do a little pilgrimage to BBC television centre just so that

295
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:51.179
I could say that I had sort of been there and seen it.

296
00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:52.139
And it was.

297
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:53.100
It was exactly that.

298
00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:56.820
I'm standing outside thinking, somewhere in that building, Tom

299
00:13:56.820 --> 00:14:01.139
Baker was telling everyone to hurry up really grumpily so that he

300
00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:05.639
could be replaced by Peter Davison later on in the same shot. it

301
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:06.960
is really special.

302
00:14:07.019 --> 00:14:12.240
And I guess the other thing that this is celebrating is the

303
00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:17.159
knowledge that we have of how the program was made.

304
00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:23.340
And Doctor Who, when it was released on DVD from sort of 2000

305
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:30.179
onwards, became perhaps one of the most well-documented television

306
00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:31.799
productions.

307
00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.179
Oh, the most in history.

308
00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:34.500
Oh, before that.

309
00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.559
And you're not just talking about the tele snaps, are you?

310
00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:42.899
But all of those documentaries, every story gets a documentary

311
00:14:42.899 --> 00:14:45.840
made about it based on stuff that we have.

312
00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:49.740
I mean, we know the entire history of Carol Anne sandwich orders

313
00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:50.159
don't we?

314
00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:53.940
Interesting, the waves of that.

315
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.460
I mean, the risk of digressing, you've got the kind of the early

316
00:14:56.460 --> 00:14:59.220
wave of Doctor Who knowledge, which is basic effectively, the

317
00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:02.759
received wisdom of 3 people, 50% of which is actually wrong or

318
00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:04.559
just their memories of the thing.

319
00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:08.940
And then it kind of gets built up in the in the very late 80s and

320
00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:09.659
into the 90s.

321
00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:12.779
And then you get the whole, the 3rd level, again, is then the DVD

322
00:15:12.779 --> 00:15:13.320
documentary.

323
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:18.120
It basically goes Jeremy Bentham, Doctor Who magazine, archive, DVD

324
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:18.600
documentaries.

325
00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:19.500
Yeah, yeah.

326
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.740
Because, I mean, I was watching this with Calvin on the couch

327
00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:25.799
yesterday and he was quite engaged in it.

328
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:28.799
He won't normally watch Doctor Who with me, but he certainly was

329
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:29.700
watching this.

330
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:35.340
And I just couldn't resist, you know, okay, maybe twice. 25

331
00:15:35.340 --> 00:15:35.700
minutes.

332
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.440
Like, I didn't go crazy.

333
00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:39.059
We know that that's a real thing.

334
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.820
You know, that actually happened.

335
00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:45.539
You know, I've seen the pilot where the doors open.

336
00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:49.500
And even little touches like him dropping the scarf on the

337
00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:49.740
ground.

338
00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:50.820
Yeah, yeah.

339
00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:53.700
With the best eye roll ever from Warris.

340
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:57.720
Yes, yes, just those little touches are part of what makes up.

341
00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:59.340
And I like that.

342
00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:03.539
They're all conflated and they're done in an overstated way.

343
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:08.279
One thing that got me this time, even more so than it did on 1st

344
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:12.720
viewing, is that the performances are not just RP.

345
00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:17.340
They're really boldlerized, especially those of, I mean, it's

346
00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:20.580
unfair to say which cast members, but there are some, Jackie Hill

347
00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:23.399
never played it like that, and even Carol Anne got a lot more

348
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.460
naturalism in, and even when you watch Bill in his farewell

349
00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:27.059
speech.

350
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:31.500
I just think the, it's not, it's done like this to serve the

351
00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:31.980
narrative.

352
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.940
But there's actually, the one thing I would say that I would

353
00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:39.720
criticise about this production is that it lets the truth of the

354
00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:43.080
original performance down a little by not giving them their dues.

355
00:16:43.139 --> 00:16:46.259
They were not that wooden, or they were not that obvious.

356
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.519
I think that's just a kind of a film and television trope, to use

357
00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:51.000
that word.

358
00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:53.700
But, Susan...

359
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.220
It's played honestly live here.

360
00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.399
But when people when people are acting in these kind of things

361
00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:03.179
within the show, they often make it a bit more wooden to make it

362
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:08.579
clear that this is... acting.

363
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.019
And as well as mocking the sort of the terrible terrible RP.

364
00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:16.619
I'm actually too excited about the wigs to really be offended.

365
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.799
I actually thought the woman who played Barbara was...

366
00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:20.819
Oh, damn gray.

367
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.019
Basically, you look like us.

368
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:23.099
You sound like a.

369
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.200
She's been she's been having that on repeat.

370
00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:27.299
So good.

371
00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:30.660
I think that Jamie Blover catches the essence of William Russell

372
00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:31.079
really well.

373
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:34.440
Considering who his father was and what he lived with all those

374
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:34.740
years.

375
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.059
Yes, absolutely.

376
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:40.680
When he does the police box standing in a junkyard line.

377
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:45.059
I think it's absolutely perfect Okay, can I just say, these

378
00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:49.200
recreations are special magic for Doctor Who fans to watch these

379
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:53.759
iconic scenes, which you know so well remounted so lovingly.

380
00:17:53.819 --> 00:17:58.619
It brings a tear to your eye, but also, it put me in mind of our

381
00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:01.859
legendary plays from the 90s for the conventions.

382
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.099
So I half expected Ian to turn around and say, let me get this

383
00:18:05.099 --> 00:18:05.579
street.

384
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:09.960
A police box standing in a junkyard can go anywhere within 20

385
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.119
miles of the BBC television centre.

386
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:15.299
That was yours.

387
00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:16.440
I heard a cry.

388
00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:18.900
That was one of the best lights you wrote for.

389
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:20.519
I think too.

390
00:18:20.579 --> 00:18:24.059
One of the things that may be a little unfair, and I think Richard

391
00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:29.339
is likely to agree with me on this is the reliance on Billy Fluffs

392
00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:35.039
as a way of indicating that he's getting increasingly ill.

393
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.940
And we don't know why those happen, but it is telling that they

394
00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:40.019
often don't happen.

395
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.480
You know, they don't happen when he's playing the Abbot of

396
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:43.200
Amboise.

397
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:44.579
They don't happen, apparently.

398
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:45.839
Yeah.

399
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:47.400
That happened generally in the historicals.

400
00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:48.180
Yeah.

401
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.700
So maybe it's just a question of engagement here.

402
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:51.059
Yeah.

403
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.420
Yeah, and it's also, you know, it's a mixup of character tick and

404
00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:56.220
actor tick as well.

405
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:58.559
Like some of those Billy Fluffs are character stuff.

406
00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.819
But certainly they are using them to tell the story of his illness

407
00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:03.359
I think.

408
00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:06.839
No, he's also, I think the sequence where he's like, you know

409
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.359
trying to remember the lines from Web Planet and his wife's going

410
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:10.740
through them with his bed.

411
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.180
I think he's just tired.

412
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.559
He's old and tired.

413
00:19:13.619 --> 00:19:15.059
I think there are 2 stories there.

414
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.819
There's one where it's such a gruelling schedule.

415
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:22.859
He's got 25 minutes that he's carrying every week of new dialogue

416
00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:24.599
half of which is practically unintelligible.

417
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.400
I mean it makes me shudder to think about it.

418
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:27.299
Well, exactly.

419
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:29.579
And so I think there are 2 lines there.

420
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.859
One is the illness, but the other is just the fact that it's just

421
00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:32.339
gruelling.

422
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:37.799
And actually, it gives truth to what Rex Tucker says early on.

423
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:40.559
You know, the much maligned Rex Tucker in there, too, I don't

424
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.380
think was a misogynistic bastard. that is played like that.

425
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.960
Well, I think it's just to summarise the year of it, giving his

426
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:48.720
tube doing a shoddy job of directing the gunfighters.

427
00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:49.680
There you.

428
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:53.039
I think it actually highlights, though, it's a nice little tonal

429
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.400
piece because even men who would consider themselves to be

430
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.740
gentlemen and good to their wives and daughters.

431
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:03.299
I remember officers in the late 70s, early 80s, as a student still

432
00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:04.019
behaving like that.

433
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.200
Yes, when you got, they had that documentary with Annabelle Crabbe

434
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.079
old women in Parliament in Cabinet.

435
00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:12.960
And they all say, you know, on all sides of politics, basically

436
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.720
the women in the room would all report afterwards of basically

437
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:17.099
they'd come up with an idea.

438
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:19.619
And then it would kind of be picked up and suddenly it's somebody

439
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:22.380
else's idea and they're effectively, it's as if they're not even

440
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:22.740
in the room.

441
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:29.339
The example in this story is Jeff Rawl's character, who he plays

442
00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:31.920
Mervyn Pinfield, I think, is ours, isn't he wonderful?

443
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.240
And he's delightful.

444
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:35.339
I mean, no one is sweeter than him, I think.

445
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:41.700
He's a really lovely actor, but verity still has to stop him from

446
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:43.740
calling her...

447
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:45.000
Yeah, dear lady, that's right.

448
00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:48.960
Can we just take a moment to realise that he was Plantagenus in

449
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:49.559
frontier?

450
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:50.039
Yeah, yeah.

451
00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:51.660
That's just...

452
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:52.740
Oh, man, goodness.

453
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.839
I was thinking of him and drop the dead donkey.

454
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:58.980
Or Sarah Jane Adventures, where he's the Mona Lisa sidekick.

455
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.259
So what is the actual real history there?

456
00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:05.700
I mean, obviously, dramatically, they're kind of a Mervyn Pinfield

457
00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:08.160
there is kind of a combination of Mervyn and David Whittaker

458
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.019
really, because David Whittaker is the one who gets the short

459
00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:10.500
straw.

460
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.019
It just doesn't get mentioned at all, which I think is very sad.

461
00:21:13.140 --> 00:21:14.700
And Terry Nation, interesting.

462
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:18.119
Terry, get termination, get some mention. that comedy writer.

463
00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:19.740
The Hancock person.

464
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:21.779
Yeah, but let's make that clear.

465
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.200
Terry Nation's role in the beginning of Doctor Who gets one line

466
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.460
that comedy writer.

467
00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:29.819
Yeah, and Anthony O'Burn gets no mention really at all.

468
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:30.960
Yeah that's true.

469
00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:32.160
The fleas.

470
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:33.359
What about you?

471
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.700
I was waiting for Bunny Webber.

472
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:36.240
We did that.

473
00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:40.019
And later on when, you know, they're talking about what to do, do

474
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:42.240
they have to cancel Dr. Hipp, because Hartnell just can't go on.

475
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:44.700
And Mervyn is in the room with Sidney Newman.

476
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.880
Is he like, what is his actual role in Doctor Who?

477
00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:50.039
And then is he kind of senior in the BBC after that?

478
00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:50.759
No.

479
00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:53.640
So this is one of the things which I can forgive because it's

480
00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:54.420
dramatic license.

481
00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:57.960
But you notice that Mervyn Pinfield didn't get one of the they

482
00:21:57.960 --> 00:21:59.519
went on to do this at the end.

483
00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:04.319
That's because Mervyn Pinfield died in 1966. shortly after he was

484
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:07.980
meant to direct Galaxy 4 and so couldn't have possibly been in the

485
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:10.079
room to discuss William Hart and all this.

486
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:11.220
That's fine.

487
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.940
Yes, Mervin Pinfield died before the end of this program.

488
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:15.720
Correct.

489
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:32.940
I mean, there are sort of other inaccuracies, obviously, if we're

490
00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:34.079
sort of talking about inaccuracies.

491
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:37.680
There seems to be a lot of rehearsals going on in the actual set

492
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.799
which seem to be early rehearsals, script in hand rehearsals, the

493
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.480
kind of stuff that would have been done in acting or wherever.

494
00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:46.319
I mean, because they just had like an afternoon in the studio

495
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:49.559
didn't they, as a kind of a dress rehearsal before then, going to

496
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:50.880
dinner and then coming back and recording it?

497
00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:51.839
That the way it worked, didn't it?

498
00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:52.440
That's right.

499
00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:56.519
So those scenes of Bill Hartnell and the others basically throwing

500
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.880
around lines from the 1st episode with Sidney Newman coming in to

501
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:03.480
see them on set and that, that was clearly long before they would

502
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:04.319
actually be shooting.

503
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.839
Yeah, and so it's a bit of a conflation.

504
00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:09.420
And Bill Harton was saying, you know, I want to see the set of the

505
00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:10.019
TARDIS.

506
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:11.940
Well, obviously they would have seen this out of the TARDIS

507
00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:14.579
because they were filming on the same day with that set.

508
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.119
But having said that, I think we can get away with that as

509
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.460
dramatic license, even though as purists.

510
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:22.859
We know that wasn't exactly the way it was.

511
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.140
The one thing which got me was the regeneration.

512
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.500
I sat there thinking, you know, why is Bill Hartnell walking to

513
00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:31.680
set and shooting the regeneration and like there's a big lead up

514
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:34.500
whereas we know these episodes were shot within basically real

515
00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:34.859
time.

516
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.440
You know, I had an hour and a quarter of studio time to churn out

517
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.099
25 minutes.

518
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.160
But then I did more research and realised that's actually what

519
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:41.460
happened.

520
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:43.140
Mark got it right.

521
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.440
The regeneration was shot 1st thing that day and then they went on

522
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:47.759
and shot the rest of the episode.

523
00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:49.019
So it's actually true.

524
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:50.039
Oh, fascinating.

525
00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:50.819
That's interesting.

526
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.559
Was that because they were worried about getting the effect

527
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:52.740
right?

528
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.339
Yeah, originally it was supposed to be that the doctor would fall

529
00:23:56.339 --> 00:23:59.579
down with his cloak over his face and then the next episode, the

530
00:23:59.579 --> 00:24:01.799
cloak would come off and Patrick Trouton would be revealed, but

531
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:04.920
Shirley Coward, the vision mixer, knew that one of the vision

532
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.980
desks had a problem and would flare to white when you mixed it.

533
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:09.900
And so she said, I think we can actually do an effect.

534
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:10.440
Wow.

535
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.680
So they set it up and shot it 1st to make sure that, you know, it

536
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:14.279
was all in the can.

537
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.880
That's actually a beautiful summary of why Doctor Who is so great

538
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.319
is people like that.

539
00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:20.220
Serendipity.

540
00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:22.799
It's not to no, it's not really serendipity.

541
00:24:22.859 --> 00:24:27.720
It's people using what they have and almost using what they have

542
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.779
which they know is actually a bit broken and leaning into that and

543
00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:31.319
making that work.

544
00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:33.839
Like the division mixer is not supposed to flare to white.

545
00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:34.440
You know what I mean?

546
00:24:34.500 --> 00:24:35.640
It's a broken piece of equipment.

547
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:36.839
That's actually very poignant.

548
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.119
That they're utilising to give the effect.

549
00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:41.640
And I think that's a summary of what Doctor Who's so great.

550
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:43.920
Or is made so great.

551
00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:47.339
Just going back again to the 60s thing, if I may, those are little

552
00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:50.279
touches to sort of place you in the 60s, but also to place you in

553
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:54.660
an organisation which is so, you know, in some respects stuffy as

554
00:24:54.660 --> 00:24:55.500
the BBC.

555
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.980
You know, you've got the wonderful William Russell in that opening

556
00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:01.500
scene when Cindy Newman arrives in the car park and he's playing

557
00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:03.000
the car parking attendance.

558
00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:05.700
Like, that's not the way we do things at the BBC, sir.

559
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.519
I mean, it is such a good summary of that kind of person in those

560
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:09.960
kind of roles in that kind of era.

561
00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:12.599
But also in the beginning where, you know, Hartnell's waiting to

562
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:13.740
go out to shoot.

563
00:25:13.859 --> 00:25:15.900
I mean, his dressing room and when you go out and to shoot the

564
00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:16.740
regeneration scene.

565
00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:18.960
And you've got, you know, the stage hand knocking on the door

566
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.900
saying, well, they're ready for you, Mr. Hart and blah, blah

567
00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:22.140
blah.

568
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:24.359
And he's saying, look, I'm only doing my job.

569
00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:27.299
That is such a good summary of that kind of, you know, I'm only

570
00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:28.799
doing my job sort of attitude.

571
00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:31.559
Yes, the BBC was full of stuffy shirts and jobs worth.

572
00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:34.019
Yeah, which is in contrast to the vision mixer lady.

573
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.880
And in contrast to our 3 main people here, Verity and Warus and

574
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.700
the other outsider who we didn't mention, the Canadian outsider.

575
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:43.079
Sidney Newman.

576
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:43.559
Yes.

577
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:47.759
And isn't it nice to see Brian Cox in such a very, varied role?

578
00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:50.640
I expected him to be playing the 5th monkey again with his

579
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:54.779
telescope and he really fatted up for the job. really improved.

580
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:56.700
I mean, he is in Doctor Who, actually.

581
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:02.579
He is the voice of the main ood in the end of.

582
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:03.539
Of course he is.

583
00:26:04.619 --> 00:26:06.900
Brian Cox main nude.

584
00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:10.920
The other thing that's really playing with the timeline is

585
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:14.700
bringing Dalek mania forward for a whole year because the Daleks

586
00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:18.059
did not become so popular until after the Dalek invasion of Earth

587
00:26:18.059 --> 00:26:22.500
they were But I had a look at the transcript in the dead planet, or

588
00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:25.980
the Daleks, if you want to call it, exterminator extermination is

589
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:28.799
mentioned 5 times by the Daleks in 7 episodes.

590
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:32.759
You can't imagine people, kids will be playing Daleks on the bus.

591
00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:35.579
That's just to make the story work better.

592
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:40.079
I mean, yes, but I don't know about that because if you look at

593
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:43.799
the ratings for the Daleks, they go from 6000000 at the start to

594
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:47.579
10000000 at the end, so the audience had doubled in this time, and

595
00:26:47.579 --> 00:26:50.220
they particularly jump in the episode after the Daleks themselves

596
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:51.000
were introduced.

597
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:54.660
So there was a genuine cultural thing that was tapped into there.

598
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.940
I mean, it's all conflated a little bit.

599
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.319
That actually made me quite happy.

600
00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:00.960
I think there are 2 ways of Dalek, man, because, I mean, remember

601
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.200
the 1st Dalek story starts practically on Christmas.

602
00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:06.059
So it's the following Christmas.

603
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:06.660
Yeah.

604
00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:08.519
With Dalek, after Dalek Invention of Earth.

605
00:27:08.579 --> 00:27:11.279
Yes, that's when I think all the merchandise hits.

606
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.240
Starting with the place.

607
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:14.220
Starting with that annual, yes.

608
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:18.539
But I think I think that the I think that kids are almost

609
00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:22.200
certainly playing Daleks on buses and in playgrounds and so on.

610
00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:24.839
And maybe it's one of those things it's like, it's like, you know

611
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.779
auton smashing out of shop windows in speed of different space.

612
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.680
It never actually happens.

613
00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:31.559
And it's almost like, you know, maybe they do only say exterminate

614
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.640
5 times in the 1st Dalek story, but for some reason, that's the

615
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:38.519
word that is grabbed onto.

616
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:41.759
I mean, I have to say, the depiction of Sidney Newman, while I

617
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:43.140
think it's an important character.

618
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.859
So it's a little bit broad, but the whole pop, pop, pop and all of

619
00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:47.039
that.

620
00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:50.819
And so I thought that was one of the slightly weaker elements.

621
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:55.500
But Brian Cox does a really good job of bringing to life Sydney's

622
00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:56.519
outsider status.

623
00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:59.339
In fact, there was no nonsense and he had the right instinct.

624
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:01.319
You want to be a producer, baby.

625
00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:02.339
You want to be a producer?

626
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.500
John Lennon Glasses, play a trumpet.

627
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:05.640
Exactly.

628
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:07.799
But that's actually something that I wanted to point out, that

629
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:10.559
sequence where, you know, he's all charming too, to Heartwell, to

630
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.079
try and win him over and then basically pulls verity aside.

631
00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:15.900
That's such a great...

632
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:17.759
But be a producer, find a way to deal with.

633
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:20.400
That's when she obviously marches into Peterborough Chackie, is

634
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:20.579
it?

635
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:22.680
The Tardis console is that.

636
00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:24.299
Another one who's slightly villainised.

637
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:25.380
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

638
00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:26.279
I love a Peter Pan.

639
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:29.579
Peter Pan, because there's a lot more to betrach his design than

640
00:28:29.579 --> 00:28:31.019
what he builds on that desk.

641
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:33.900
But he's actually very interesting because Sidney Newman is

642
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:37.859
actually Michael Grade, who is the villain in Doctor Who history.

643
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.000
Michael Grady brought in from basically a commercial type

644
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:42.779
enterprise.

645
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:44.759
Well, I suppose it's channel four, which is, which is he gone to

646
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:45.180
channel four?

647
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:46.019
Yeah, commercially.

648
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:49.200
He comes from a commercial background, like Sidney Newman does, to

649
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.799
shake the place up because the BBC is starting to flail a little

650
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.440
bit in that it's basically being overwhelmed by its own stuffiness

651
00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:56.460
its own conservatism.

652
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:59.160
And Sydney Newman's brought in to shake all that up.

653
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:01.440
And likewise, Michael Grade in the mid 80s is brought in to shake

654
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:01.980
up the babies.

655
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.440
And Michael Grade arguably does a decent job of it.

656
00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:07.619
It's his successor, Jonathan Powell, and then John Burst, who

657
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:08.940
really kind of mucked things up.

658
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.799
But grades term it the BBC.

659
00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:12.660
It was actually doing quite well and was quite popular.

660
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.119
Oh, well, I'm just more talking about throwing the baby out with

661
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:15.599
the bath water.

662
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:18.059
Oh, yeah, no, but, you know, in terms of grade being a villain.

663
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:20.940
Yes, he's a villain to us, but his broader instincts were probably

664
00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:21.240
right.

665
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:21.960
Oh, yeah, probably.

666
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.140
Yeah, cancel the show for God's sake.

667
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.940
From what we know of Newman.

668
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:29.880
And this is the lovely thing of conflations and truth within

669
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.460
dreamt reality, which is Doctor Who.

670
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:35.339
I really would, I know, we've talked about this before.

671
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:38.940
I would have loved to have seen this actually go quite cocktail

672
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:41.819
like and just truth and reality bleeding together.

673
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.880
And then I would have liked 490 minute episodes with that crew

674
00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:50.339
revisiting new, both new and old monsters and new ideas before we

675
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:52.619
started with the lovely Mr. Capaldi.

676
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:53.940
I just think it would have been quite beautiful.

677
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:10.740
As we go through the history of Doctor Who in those first couple

678
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:14.460
of years, just those glimpses are so important to us as fans, so

679
00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:18.180
it's not just the Daleks or the 1st episode, we're on the set of

680
00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:19.079
the Reign of Terror.

681
00:30:19.140 --> 00:30:24.660
Yeah, with the hat, yes, yes.

682
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.140
Yeah, I want to see Marco Polo, Marinace, and the Aztecs.

683
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:32.099
Well, I mean, I think the Marco Polo thing was a really, really

684
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:34.200
great thing and that's a moment, isn't it?

685
00:30:34.259 --> 00:30:38.339
Don't we pan up from like seeing the set on the little monastery?

686
00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:39.299
On the black and white?

687
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:42.359
And someone says, imagine if this was in colour and then the

688
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:44.039
camera goes up and it is in colour.

689
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:45.119
It's gorgeous.

690
00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:48.359
Well, because that was an absolute triumph of design.

691
00:30:48.420 --> 00:30:50.339
That's Barry Newberry, isn't it?

692
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:51.119
Yeah.

693
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:51.599
It is.

694
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:55.019
And of course, you know, it's important to this story because it's

695
00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:56.880
Warris Sain's 2nd episode.

696
00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:57.420
Yeah, yeah.

697
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.059
I mean, we do have the illusion that Warris Hussein is the only

698
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:01.980
director of Doctor Who for a certain block of time.

699
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:04.319
But I can live there.

700
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:04.980
Four stories.

701
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:05.759
If only.

702
00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:08.460
Well, we have Richard Martin, don't we?

703
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:12.180
Directing... and he's even wearing a cravat, which I think is

704
00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:13.440
absolutely...

705
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:16.500
And I love the fact that you got Douglas Canfield as an assistant

706
00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:17.519
floor manager.

707
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:22.259
One thing that I didn't think would ever happen is that Richard

708
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:26.339
Martin wouldn't yell at a performer for some technical problem

709
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:27.779
would just kind of let it happen.

710
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:28.859
Yes, exactly.

711
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:30.359
Because, I mean, who cares?

712
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:32.579
I have a couple of things to say.

713
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:37.079
So when I interviewed Richard Martin in 1995, he was wearing a

714
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.279
cravat, very like that in the photographs that I took for DWM.

715
00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:43.680
I like the fact that he is played by Ian Hallard, who is Mark

716
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:44.460
Gatis's husband.

717
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:45.240
Oh, wow.

718
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:50.279
And also to your point, Nathan, about Richard Martin not yelling

719
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:51.359
anyone because he didn't care.

720
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:55.140
He actually related a story to me when I interviewed him of being

721
00:31:55.140 --> 00:31:58.799
on Westminster Bridge when the Daleks were coming towards them and

722
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:02.160
Robert Jewell, I think, who is the Australian, I may get, may have

723
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.960
that name wrong, but I think it was Robert Jewell, who was the

724
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:05.099
Australian Dalek operator.

725
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:07.019
He was yelling, come on, you're getting out of line.

726
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:08.160
You're not keeping up with the others.

727
00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:10.859
And apparently was berated by this Dalek operator.

728
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:13.140
You get inside one of these things and try it out.

729
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:15.000
So that's kind of based in reality.

730
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:16.980
Wow, okay, that's amazing.

731
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:18.180
Fantastic.

732
00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:20.279
There's another great story.

733
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:23.339
I thought you were going to say from the Richard Martin interview

734
00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:26.279
which was about what Warris Hussein wanted to do.

735
00:32:26.339 --> 00:32:28.680
You have to, is that reliable?

736
00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:32.099
Yes, in fact, there was the instance where, you know, Richard

737
00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:35.759
obviously worked with Warris a lot, and Warris apparently said to

738
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.460
Sidney Human, as relayed by Richard Martin.

739
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.160
But Sid, can't I do passage to India?

740
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:44.400
Director Sidney Newman said, we may do a passage to India.

741
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:46.440
You're going to do Effen Doctor, who...

742
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.339
Yes, but it was like that kind of wistful passage.

743
00:32:53.339 --> 00:32:56.640
And in fact, he did end up doing passion...

744
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.440
Yeah, except not exactly after dog two.

745
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:00.660
Right Sometime later.

746
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:04.619
I was actually surprised by how much, because, you know, we used

747
00:33:04.619 --> 00:33:08.700
to Warris Hussein as he looks now or in the last few decades, but

748
00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:12.359
Sashuan is actually quite...

749
00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:13.380
It's astonishing.

750
00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:17.160
He's obviously the slightly Hollywood-ized version of Warris, but

751
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:18.420
I don't think Warris minds that.

752
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:19.559
I'm sure he doesn't.

753
00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:25.079
But I also like to imagine that because he also plays the master

754
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:26.400
in years to come.

755
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:31.380
He's going back for his vengeance on the doctor after being put in

756
00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:34.440
all those bad situations of lots of exposition.

757
00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.380
So we're going to tie her up and exposit at her for an entire

758
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:37.740
episode.

759
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.400
So I reckon that is the master, right?

760
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:46.079
Because he gets left behind in World War 2 by the doctor, on the

761
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:51.539
Eiffel Tower, and then he gets a job in 2012 or 2013.

762
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:55.380
He's just directing passage to India, I think, goes off to meet

763
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:56.220
the doctor.

764
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:58.859
But just going back to the Daleks for a minute, if I may, actually

765
00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:01.740
thinking further about what you were saying. there, Greg.

766
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:06.900
The way they introduce the Daleks in this program is beautiful.

767
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.420
When you've seen it from the inside, you don't get a clear shot of

768
00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:09.780
the outside.

769
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.320
All you get is these shots of people looking at them and get

770
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:14.280
verity with her fangs.

771
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:16.559
Could you be more specific?

772
00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:18.539
She was holding a cigarette as well.

773
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:23.099
And uh, and uh, and then you see them and you see those

774
00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:27.480
beautifully reconstructed sequences, which are just so well done.

775
00:34:27.539 --> 00:34:31.139
And you can see how in such a tiny space the whole thing is being

776
00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:33.059
created in, which makes it so magical.

777
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.519
And it realised when I saw them trundling past and we both, Ryan

778
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.760
and I turned each other, said, yeah, they were phenomenal.

779
00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:40.559
I mean, 1963.

780
00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:42.239
The design of the television.

781
00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:43.440
Like, this is something...

782
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.400
It's extraordinary.

783
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:45.539
The design.

784
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:47.579
Yeah, it could be. it could have been dreadful.

785
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:48.780
It could have been made out of cloth.

786
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:51.239
Like one of the original...

787
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:54.300
Yes, one of the original ideas was, would could it work?

788
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:56.219
Because, you know, Remember Terry Nation wanted them to be like

789
00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:58.619
ballet dancers. not ballet dancers, particularly kind of Russian.

790
00:34:58.679 --> 00:34:59.159
Georgia, Georgia.

791
00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:00.900
Georgia, I think, yes, Georgia said dun.

792
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.219
Like, you know, you don't see the feet move.

793
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:02.940
You just see this thing.

794
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:06.059
And one of the original ideas was to create like a kind of a wire

795
00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:08.699
mesh and then drape these cloths over it.

796
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:10.800
We all love Alpha Centauri.

797
00:35:10.860 --> 00:35:13.679
Yeah, yeah, but it basically would have been that Victoria

798
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:14.340
Waterfield.

799
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.119
They would have had a skirt like the crotons.

800
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:20.699
Yes, it would have been like that that was that original thing.

801
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:21.599
Didn't that go that long?

802
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:23.099
Well, again, budget.

803
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:27.239
Cusick really gets claustrophobia. and he really gets, and don't

804
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:29.039
forget, this is a, have you built your bombshell?

805
00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:30.239
Have you got your new Anderson shoulders?

806
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:30.960
Yeah.

807
00:35:31.019 --> 00:35:33.659
You know, we only we only had the Bay of Pigs a year before.

808
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:38.519
So the whole thing of that, the claustrophobia of the Dalek sets

809
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:40.079
that really is extraordinary.

810
00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:43.320
And it really brings home that incredible original design for the

811
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:47.460
Daleks because even in light of the 21st century RTD version of

812
00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:49.800
Daleks, which rebuilds them as something which looks more

813
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:50.519
industrial.

814
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:54.179
And yeah, you know, more sort of real to the touch, but still

815
00:35:54.179 --> 00:35:55.139
keeping the silhouette.

816
00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:57.360
Those originals in situ.

817
00:35:57.420 --> 00:35:58.440
Look beautiful.

818
00:35:58.500 --> 00:35:59.639
And fragile.

819
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:00.239
Incredible.

820
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:02.460
And their fear works both ways.

821
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:06.719
I think we feel their fear. compounds our own fear.

822
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:09.000
Yeah, they're not robots.

823
00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:10.619
They're not speaking with robot voices.

824
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:11.639
They're not emotion.

825
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:13.619
Nick Briggs in a week.

826
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:14.820
Yeah, I know, it's so great.

827
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.340
In a liberanti wig.

828
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.860
Let's say, yeah, he's a kind of Ford, isn't it?

829
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:20.820
Who is he being?

830
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.260
Who do we think he's being?

831
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:23.460
Is he Peter Hall?

832
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.300
David Graham?

833
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:29.639
I would say I admire Mark Gaterson's restraint when redoing those

834
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.820
scenes from the Daleks that he doesn't have the Daleks say

835
00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:33.480
exterminate.

836
00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:36.659
He has the Daleks say historically accurate fire.

837
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.139
Yeah.

838
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:38.820
Oh, yes, it's all historically accurate.

839
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:39.780
That stuff is all...

840
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:40.320
It's beautiful.

841
00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:42.059
Are you conflating five-ish doctors, though?

842
00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:43.380
because I'm still seeing.

843
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:43.800
Yeah.

844
00:36:43.860 --> 00:36:45.900
It's not just the lines that are right.

845
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:47.460
It's the intonations which are right.

846
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:50.099
And I think that's what makes it so magical, especially from the

847
00:36:50.099 --> 00:36:50.579
regular crew.

848
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:52.260
Yeah Yeah.

849
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:53.760
And it is just for us.

850
00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:57.360
I mean, that's not for the not we watching this over the

851
00:36:57.360 --> 00:36:58.380
anniversary we.

852
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.960
But that's because it's made by people who love it and know that

853
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.800
that's it's good so easily of just being just all the same lines

854
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:07.559
or approximately the same lines, just read in a completely

855
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:07.920
different way.

856
00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:09.119
So well done.

857
00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:13.380
So the reason that I mentioned having met people like Warris St.

858
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:16.079
Richmond is I used to do the interviews for Doctor 2 magazine over

859
00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:18.420
a number of years, which is where I got to meet a lot of these

860
00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:18.840
people.

861
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:20.579
And so I've met Warris twice.

862
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:23.099
I did 2 interviews with him, and I think that this story does

863
00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:23.880
justice to him.

864
00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:28.139
Because he's such an interesting man and such an interesting

865
00:37:28.139 --> 00:37:32.099
character that to build the story around him was the right choice

866
00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:32.400
I think.

867
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:36.840
The woman who plays verity, who was obviously in high.

868
00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:38.340
Lovely Jessica Rain.

869
00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:39.659
Call the midwife.

870
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:40.800
So magnificent.

871
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:41.820
Probably good.

872
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:44.699
She's also Reverend Golightly from the Unicorn and the Wasp's

873
00:37:44.699 --> 00:37:44.940
wife.

874
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.860
Oh, she is.

875
00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:48.840
And in other things as well.

876
00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:51.780
She's actually the only one that I really fought because she's

877
00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:57.420
just too warm and soft. and everything we know about the wonderful

878
00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:01.440
and talented verity and from Janet Jake Porter, who most of us

879
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.840
have met when we were young children, who was best mates of the

880
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.719
and other persons in the business, like, you know, what she did to

881
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.980
the creator of Rock Follies, and then became, um, verity was never

882
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:12.599
a puff piece.

883
00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:13.559
She was never soft.

884
00:38:13.619 --> 00:38:15.539
So the little moments of stealiness.

885
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:16.980
No, really, we do know this.

886
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:20.039
No, I know she's not soft, but there's actually soft, and there's

887
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.559
speaking in it with a soft voice and carrying a big stick kind of

888
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:22.920
soft.

889
00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:24.780
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly.

890
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:25.440
No, exactly.

891
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.380
And I think she was more of that kind of mole.

892
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:29.820
She was very strong.

893
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:30.900
I won't say hard.

894
00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:34.920
I wish to be respectful, but talking to women, I know.

895
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:37.980
Well, and we know women who have worked in the industry either on

896
00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:40.619
the sidelines with her or who have friends who developed these

897
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:43.619
things and verity was not a gentle person.

898
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:46.800
The reason she succeeded is because of all the reasons that Simon

899
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:47.219
said.

900
00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:49.860
I don't know if we've ever mentioned this on the podcast, but

901
00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:53.400
doesn't she come to everyone's attention as a production assistant

902
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:59.699
on a show called Underground, which was going out live, and one of

903
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:04.619
the main actors died during the, during the broadcast and she

904
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:05.940
managed to keep it going?

905
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:07.440
Despite this.

906
00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:08.400
That's right.

907
00:39:08.460 --> 00:39:09.239
Yeah, yeah.

908
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.739
I remember this story.

909
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:12.659
I'm just looking it up Yeah, that's right.

910
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.679
She's Sidney Newman's assistance over at ITV or whatever.

911
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.079
Yeah, where she'd worked with Jackie Hill. true friendship.

912
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.300
Yeah, an actual genuine real friendship is.

913
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:22.800
I mean, she was 28 when she got this job.

914
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:24.360
It's incredible, yeah.

915
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:25.559
I mean, now, even now.

916
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:27.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

917
00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:31.019
And it's pretty impressive to think about the kind of person she

918
00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:34.619
would have had to have been to have made her way in the BBC at

919
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:40.079
that time. like Patty Russell, another incredible woman who, I

920
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:42.960
think, was the only female director on staff until Julia Smith

921
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:43.619
came out.

922
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:48.059
And it makes you wonder, although verity is clearly whip smart and

923
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:48.960
forthright.

924
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:54.239
Was she brittle, and that got her as far as she went, or did she

925
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:57.420
have to become brittle to make her way in the BBC.

926
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:58.980
She was already pretty strong.

927
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:02.519
She was sex from Granada after 6 months for being a mouthy young

928
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:02.760
woman.

929
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:04.619
So yeah.

930
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:07.920
But don't forget, she got 6 0 levels at Rodine, and then went to

931
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:08.760
the University of Paris.

932
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:09.599
Wasn't that Rada?

933
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:11.699
Same difference.

934
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:14.519
But yeah, no, and her dad was a very successful Jewish accountant

935
00:40:14.579 --> 00:40:17.159
much like our other hero of the podcast, Joan Collins.

936
00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:18.599
I'm joking.

937
00:40:18.659 --> 00:40:21.000
So yeah, she came up with a sense of if you want to take on the

938
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.159
British establishment and the class system, you're going to have

939
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:24.960
to be extraordinary in every way.

940
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:26.940
It's another Thatcher principle, isn't it?

941
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:28.260
And you're going to have to beat them at their own game.

942
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.800
Richard Martin said that he broke his finger once, slamming it

943
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:34.199
down on the desk telling Verity Lambert to bugger off.

944
00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:37.320
And he said, he said she came right back at me.

945
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:38.280
That's why I loved her.

946
00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:41.940
That conjures so many pictures.

947
00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:45.360
He was a very interesting man.

948
00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:48.119
He didn't have very nice things to say about David Whitaker either

949
00:40:48.119 --> 00:40:50.880
but you know, at the end of the day, you wonder, is the problem

950
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:52.559
with everyone else?

951
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:56.039
We look at Richard's stories as they appear on screen and we look

952
00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:58.860
at everyone else around him and yeah, all's fair, but yeah.

953
00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:18.599
Is there anyone that you feel was underserved by this?

954
00:41:18.659 --> 00:41:20.699
We've mentioned David Whittaker.

955
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:21.900
But Jackie Hill.

956
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:22.559
Yeah?

957
00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:23.039
Yeah.

958
00:41:23.099 --> 00:41:27.420
I mean, there's not that much time, but yes, it is, there's a

959
00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:30.719
great tragedy about Jackie Hill, isn't there, where we can never

960
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.219
be sure.

961
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:35.639
Little fan she knew how powerful her...

962
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:36.480
Well, I don't know.

963
00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:39.900
I mean, we know a lot of fanboys from the early 90s who would

964
00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:43.440
would pay homage to her and, you know, worship the feat and she

965
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:46.500
would give them DVD copies of stories that you just couldn't get.

966
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:47.940
Actually, no one in Sydney.

967
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.079
You've got a listen.

968
00:41:49.139 --> 00:41:50.340
So and she she got it.

969
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:54.420
But I also think that she was professional enough and hopefully

970
00:41:54.420 --> 00:41:58.440
aware of her own talent enough that she saw it as another job.

971
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:02.280
But I honestly don't believe the show would be here if it wasn't

972
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.059
for her in it.

973
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:05.460
No, I also think that the love of Jackie Hills Barbara is

974
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:08.219
something that's developed over the years, not just because of her

975
00:42:08.219 --> 00:42:08.579
death.

976
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:11.400
I just think it's something that's appreciated more in the 21st

977
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:13.440
century than it was in the 20th. yeah At the time.

978
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.820
I'm not saying we didn't like it.

979
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.099
I think it was just all too, it was just too mysterious.

980
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:21.239
We have to remember, yes, there were illicit copies of these VHS

981
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.579
going around that you could barely see or hear when you watch

982
00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:23.820
them.

983
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:27.300
But the vast majority of fans did not have access.

984
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:31.320
And it's only in the very early 90s when things start getting

985
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.320
released on VHS that and BSB Sky Bean all that kind of stuff

986
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:34.679
start.

987
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:36.239
Yeah, she died in what, 96?

988
00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:36.840
93?

989
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.239
No 93, it was before the it was before the 30th anniversary.

990
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:40.079
So it's exactly.

991
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:40.920
See, it's quite early.

992
00:42:40.980 --> 00:42:43.739
So she's effectively, she's one of those things that's discovered

993
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:45.780
you know, rather like the fact that the people fighters actually

994
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:47.159
isn't the worst story ever.

995
00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:48.239
Well, you know, kind of.

996
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:55.380
But it also tracks fandom in the as gay fandom rose, Jackie Hill's

997
00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:57.900
reputation moves from fantastic to fabulous.

998
00:42:57.960 --> 00:42:59.940
And so that's why she becomes iconic.

999
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:03.599
Yeah, as we come of age, so does her reputation.

1000
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.179
And there is that thing of getting, yeah, certainly young gay men

1001
00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:09.360
looking for, and let's not even go into the psych of it, but

1002
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:14.280
looking for a woman who plays a strong person in the John Crawford

1003
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:14.579
mould.

1004
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:16.619
And she's practically unique in that regard in the program.

1005
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:18.780
I also think she's the best one on screen.

1006
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:23.340
She elevates and ties Bill's performance together and knits it

1007
00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:27.420
into a workable shape and every scene she's in with him at some of

1008
00:43:27.420 --> 00:43:28.679
the best scenes in the 1st series.

1009
00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:29.340
Yeah, definitely.

1010
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:34.139
I was going to say that Jackie and William Russell were cast early

1011
00:43:34.139 --> 00:43:38.219
because they were effectively the leads and the other characters

1012
00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:42.360
developed into stronger roles as it went along or devolved as

1013
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:43.079
Susan did.

1014
00:43:43.139 --> 00:43:47.400
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things too, that is clear that

1015
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:50.460
Bill into a rat infested pit of screaming.

1016
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:54.420
Well, Hartnell's the sort of titular character, but he's not the

1017
00:43:54.420 --> 00:43:56.039
main character when it starts.

1018
00:43:56.099 --> 00:44:01.320
And so not only is he doing sort of 40 weak years or longer, but

1019
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:04.920
suddenly he's the main character who is saying all the lines, which

1020
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.260
is not really what he signs up for.

1021
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:12.960
I mean, we talked about this on an FT many moons ago where if

1022
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:16.500
you're looking at co-leads in Doctor Who, the only time there has

1023
00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:20.579
ever been a true co-lead for Doctor Who is William Russell, because

1024
00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:23.400
Ian is clearly the lead character along with the doctor.

1025
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:28.139
And as fabulous as Jackie Hill is, and as wonderful as Barbara is

1026
00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:31.920
and as key to the action and those early episodes, it goes back to

1027
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.219
what we were saying about the stuffiness of the BBC and for want

1028
00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:39.179
of a better word patriarchy in this story, in that Jackie Hill

1029
00:44:39.179 --> 00:44:42.719
clearly was not as valued by the BBC as William Russell and

1030
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:43.440
William Hartnell.

1031
00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:46.860
So when you have the salary negotiations, the edict comes down

1032
00:44:46.860 --> 00:44:50.280
from the BBC high-ups, give Bill Hartner what he wants, give

1033
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:53.519
William Russell what he wants, Jackie Hill is disposable if she

1034
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:54.360
won't accept these terms.

1035
00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:58.980
And you just think that is so far divorced from the weight of what

1036
00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:00.119
they brought to the program.

1037
00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:02.460
She was every bit as integral to it.

1038
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.380
It's just not the way that things work then.

1039
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:07.260
I don't know whether this is a bit of invented Peter Haning

1040
00:45:07.260 --> 00:45:11.400
apocrypha, but the 1st Radio Times cover, which is for Marco Polo

1041
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:15.179
has Mark Eden with heart on it. apparently, according to that

1042
00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:19.679
telling of the story, William Russell was livid, that he was not

1043
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:22.980
on the cover of the radio times instead of Mark Eden because he

1044
00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:24.719
regarded himself as the leading man of the show.

1045
00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:25.920
Yeah, understandable.

1046
00:45:25.980 --> 00:45:28.380
Which is probably what was sold to him at the time.

1047
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:30.900
Well, he came in as a leading man.

1048
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:32.639
That's what was salty in his role.

1049
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:35.699
He'd been the lead in Adventures of Lancelot a few years before.

1050
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:36.539
Exactly, yes.

1051
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:39.119
And to fantastic. that recently, actually, yes.

1052
00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:41.880
And let's not forget that he was not like cast as like the young

1053
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:45.119
lead because he was almost 40 when he was cast.

1054
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:48.480
So he wasn't like some 25 year old whose 1st job it was and he was

1055
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.440
like the young action man.

1056
00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:50.760
He was an established actor.

1057
00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:53.820
Oh, yes, he'd been in films like the man who, the man who wasn't

1058
00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:56.159
there, the one about where they drop a dead body into the

1059
00:45:56.159 --> 00:45:59.699
Mediterranean during the Second World War with some invented plans

1060
00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:01.199
to try and put the Nazis.

1061
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.639
Is that the man that wasn't there or the man?

1062
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:04.079
The man who haunted himself.

1063
00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:05.639
I was going to say, but he's in that.

1064
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:07.619
He's actually in that as a young RAF pilot.

1065
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:08.460
Right.

1066
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:09.900
Yeah, his career started really early.

1067
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:12.480
He is the BBC's affordable Roger Moore.

1068
00:46:12.539 --> 00:46:14.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1069
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.619
Well, I mean, the doctor's a character part.

1070
00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:18.000
He's not the leading man at all.

1071
00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:21.179
He's the crazy old man who gets them into scratch.

1072
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:21.719
Legitimate.

1073
00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:23.760
It's a legitimate old man.

1074
00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:24.659
Not variety.

1075
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:27.599
But going back to what you were saying, what you were asking about

1076
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:29.460
who gets the raw end of the deal.

1077
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:30.719
Not so much.

1078
00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:33.659
We've talked about David Whittaker, but some of the cameos, there

1079
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:34.860
are some cameos missing.

1080
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:39.000
You know, we have Gene Marsh and Anika in the in the farewell

1081
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:39.360
party.

1082
00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:40.380
Where's Peter Purpose?

1083
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:42.480
Was he just not available or is he actually somewhere on the

1084
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:43.139
cutting room floor?

1085
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:45.719
I think he might be on the cutting room floor because I have a

1086
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.599
memory of them doing one of those flashbulb scenes outside

1087
00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:51.659
television centre, which has Peter Purvis in it, in his celestial

1088
00:46:51.659 --> 00:46:52.500
20s.

1089
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:53.699
Yes, it is.

1090
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:56.460
Yes, and Dodo with the O red singer.

1091
00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:57.119
Yeah, yeah.

1092
00:46:57.179 --> 00:46:59.639
Dodo absolutely got the amount of screen time that she deserved.

1093
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:02.280
No, I'm not talking about Peter Purvis.

1094
00:47:02.340 --> 00:47:04.860
I'm talking about the real one, the cameos, by the way.

1095
00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:06.119
No, no, Peter Perth's not in it.

1096
00:47:06.179 --> 00:47:07.320
It might have not been about.

1097
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:10.500
Mark Eden, in that shot, we can see Anna Kerr and the wonderful

1098
00:47:10.500 --> 00:47:14.039
Gene Marsh looking exactly like, yeah, expect Sarah Kingdom to

1099
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:16.019
look like, not after being dragged through the time.

1100
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.260
Just a few seconds from the end of Dalacast.

1101
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.380
I don't know why these women even put up with us.

1102
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:26.219
But there is a much older fella behind them.

1103
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:29.699
It's not Toby Haydoke in a wig because he's at the bar.

1104
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:33.420
But there is, but there is... behind the failing to serve wars.

1105
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:34.440
Yeah, yeah.

1106
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:36.480
And I was trying to think, it's okay, it's not Mark Eaton, because

1107
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:37.559
we know what Mark Eaton looks like.

1108
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:38.400
Do we know who he was?

1109
00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:42.059
It is in the list, but it just spins. isn't Mark Eden Donald

1110
00:47:42.059 --> 00:47:44.940
Batherstock at the start talking to...

1111
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:45.599
Of course he is.

1112
00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:46.079
Yes he is.

1113
00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:46.559
Oh, wow.

1114
00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:47.760
Oh, I see, yes.

1115
00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:48.059
Yes.

1116
00:47:48.059 --> 00:47:48.300
Yes.

1117
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:48.780
Wonderful.

1118
00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:51.719
It would have been wonderful if they'd had a radio times cover and

1119
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:52.380
given it to him.

1120
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:57.420
Now, is there a cameo that everybody noticed just after Carol Anne

1121
00:47:57.420 --> 00:47:58.260
Ford's cameo?

1122
00:47:58.320 --> 00:47:59.280
No.

1123
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.219
The little, so...

1124
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:08.340
The camera pans into through the window into the living room and a

1125
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:10.860
little boy is watching the end of the Daleks.

1126
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:15.360
He turns around and it is Connor from Heartstopper.

1127
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:16.980
Oh, wow.

1128
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:19.559
And once you realise it's him, it's so opposite.

1129
00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:20.400
It's so obvious.

1130
00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:22.860
He turns around and we both went, that's Kit Connell from

1131
00:48:22.860 --> 00:48:23.460
Heartstopping.

1132
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:24.780
And we looked it up and yes, it was.

1133
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.420
Yeah, it is like this little boy and it's him.

1134
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.280
Yeah, Doctor Who turned us all gay.

1135
00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:36.960
I think that given the way the story is structured around Hartnall

1136
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:40.619
and his performance and his difficulties in the role, It's

1137
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:44.940
understandable, but a bit of a shame that Maureen O'Brien doesn't

1138
00:48:44.940 --> 00:48:50.280
get a bigger deal because, I mean, it is very clear that she was

1139
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:52.019
kind of keeping him going.

1140
00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:55.800
And it was, it was her departure, perhaps more than Carol Anne's

1141
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:59.099
departure that had a huge effect on him, I think.

1142
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:03.179
So in some respects, you could argue that that's emerging of

1143
00:49:03.179 --> 00:49:04.320
characters.

1144
00:49:04.380 --> 00:49:07.800
He's hit hard by her departure by Carol Anne's departure in this

1145
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:09.659
whereas in reality, it's...

1146
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:11.699
It's kind of a series of blues, isn't it?

1147
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:16.019
The 1st real blow is William Russell, Jackie Hill and Verity Land

1148
00:49:16.019 --> 00:49:18.300
but all leaving very basically.

1149
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:20.880
Yeah, which is something that Bill might not have recovered from

1150
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:24.000
except for the fact that Maureen O'Brien and Peter Purvis were

1151
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:25.320
actually very good friends with him.

1152
00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:26.579
He relied on them and trusted them.

1153
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.699
So they kept him going a little bit longer all through that tumult

1154
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:31.320
with John Wiles, the new producer.

1155
00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:35.760
Well, Maureen has only got one story with John Wells, doesn't

1156
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:35.940
she?

1157
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.019
Yeah, Maureen does.

1158
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:40.440
Well, yeah, I know, but verity is effectively gone by the end of

1159
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:41.880
the chase, effectively.

1160
00:49:41.940 --> 00:49:42.480
Oh, really?

1161
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:42.900
Yes.

1162
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.960
And so there's a couple more stories, but then it's really the

1163
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.559
departure of Maureen and then the departure of Peter Purvis.

1164
00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:52.860
And so by the time you hit the war machines, as we see in the

1165
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:56.639
story, Bill is just adrift, he's got no one around him who loves

1166
00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:00.719
him or caters to him because obviously Michael Craz and Anika, they

1167
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:01.019
came in.

1168
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:04.559
And, you know, this was someone they didn't know, they hadn't

1169
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:06.300
worked with, they were keen to make their own way.

1170
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.059
And so there's just less tolerance of his foibles.

1171
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:12.000
Yeah, I mean, Anika doesn't like Bill.

1172
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.019
And she will still say things about him being difficult to work

1173
00:50:16.019 --> 00:50:16.320
with.

1174
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:20.340
She's the source of the story where, isn't she where Bill has a

1175
00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:24.719
driver and they've, they all go into a pub for lunch or dinner.

1176
00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:27.360
And the driver, and the driver's left outside the car and

1177
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.880
Anarchist says, oh, he should come in too and he's, and Bill says

1178
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:30.539
no, he's only the driver.

1179
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:31.739
Yeah, yeah.

1180
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:35.820
And, you know, like, it's hard to unpick the truth of that.

1181
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:39.960
Yeah, she obviously had a bad experience of Bill.

1182
00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:42.960
It was kind of sweet to see her at the party.

1183
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:47.760
And given that, it's remarkable, in fact, what's remarkable about

1184
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:52.079
the story is that Warris and Verity managed to win Bill Round so

1185
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:52.980
comprehensively.

1186
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:55.920
I think it's also because at the end of the day, he wasn't getting

1187
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:56.340
any other work.

1188
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:57.239
Yeah.

1189
00:50:57.239 --> 00:50:58.559
Two, there's that.

1190
00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:01.860
That's true, but they obviously made the effort.

1191
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:04.860
They were visionaries and they knew that they could deliver

1192
00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:07.260
something and they brought him on board with their vision.

1193
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:09.719
They took the time with him, which is what someone in his position

1194
00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:10.380
needed.

1195
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.320
Whereas, you know, and there's no fault to be laid here, when

1196
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.800
people like Michael and Anika and John Wiles came in, they didn't

1197
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:20.519
take the time clearly to understand him and try to get him on

1198
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:21.480
board with what they were doing.

1199
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:25.679
For Warris and for Verity.

1200
00:51:25.739 --> 00:51:27.960
That was their big break effectively.

1201
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:31.019
They had the opportunity to take it further.

1202
00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:34.320
They took the opportunity and made something wonderful out of it

1203
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.219
whereas the other people were inheriting something.

1204
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:39.420
They weren't making it.

1205
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:40.860
It wasn't a new thing.

1206
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:44.280
They needed Bill Hartnall and they knew why they needed him

1207
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:46.920
whereas I don't think anyone understood that in the later years.

1208
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:48.480
And you know, time had moved on.

1209
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:50.460
The show had moved on.

1210
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:52.260
Maybe it had moved on beyond Bill Hartnell.

1211
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:55.440
We could have had John Wiles as a sort of fantastic pandemic

1212
00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:56.219
villain.

1213
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:57.719
Yeah.

1214
00:51:57.780 --> 00:51:58.320
Exactly.

1215
00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:00.480
You don't needed one scene.

1216
00:52:00.539 --> 00:52:03.780
We could have had the scene where he suggested to Bill that they

1217
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:06.539
go out onto the surface of the moon and, you know, the air was

1218
00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:07.800
blue within minutes, apparently.

1219
00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:10.739
I think it's the right length.

1220
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:12.659
I mean, you could have made it 15 or 20 minutes longer and

1221
00:52:12.659 --> 00:52:15.179
included a bit more in O'Brien and included a bit of John Wildes

1222
00:52:15.179 --> 00:52:18.300
and it does everything it needs to do.

1223
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:21.480
It turns it more into a docudrama. very long.

1224
00:52:21.539 --> 00:52:22.619
And that comes back to the question.

1225
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:24.000
It wasn't made for us.

1226
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.219
I know, it was constantly challenging.

1227
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:29.880
Well, yeah, but it wasn't because it's, you know, it's very

1228
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:30.360
expensive.

1229
00:52:30.420 --> 00:52:32.219
When they when they sold it.

1230
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:35.340
When they sold it, they didn't they said it wasn't made for us, but

1231
00:52:35.340 --> 00:52:36.539
as soon as they started making it.

1232
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:40.679
But isn't that the brilliant tightrope that it walks, is that it

1233
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:44.280
is meant to be a mass entertainment program and it absolutely

1234
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:48.780
tells you the story in a digestible and entertaining way and gives

1235
00:52:48.780 --> 00:52:51.480
you any insight into the people who actually made Doctor Who

1236
00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:52.739
something special in what it was.

1237
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.920
But it also is a love letter to the fans.

1238
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:58.860
And to pull off that balancing act is something incredible.

1239
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:05.039
And that's why people like Wiles and Wizika and O'Brien don't make

1240
00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:07.320
it in there because they have to pair it down.

1241
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.599
And I think that it actually manages to hit that balance perfectly

1242
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:12.840
well.

1243
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:17.579
But they play to the fans perfectly by all those convention and

1244
00:53:17.579 --> 00:53:18.300
interviews.

1245
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:22.980
Yes. anecdotes, which have been learned by rote, you know, no EMs

1246
00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:25.260
bug eyed monsters. you know, all that sort of stuff.

1247
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:29.880
They are all utilised to tell the broader audience what it was

1248
00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:30.059
about.

1249
00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:34.440
Well, Lime Grove, they're complaining about Lime Grove, Studio D, 4

1250
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:35.400
cuts per episode.

1251
00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:37.019
Yes, all of that.

1252
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:40.559
Or the fact that all of that stuff manages to make it in there is

1253
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:41.219
extraordinary.

1254
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.340
And Mark Gates is having fun with that line about no BM is where

1255
00:53:44.340 --> 00:53:48.900
he says no brains in jars because Doctor Who will do that, not

1256
00:53:48.900 --> 00:53:51.659
once, but twice.

1257
00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:52.440
But what's interesting?

1258
00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:55.019
And verity was always, you know, told the anecdote about, you know

1259
00:53:55.019 --> 00:53:58.019
Sidney Newman holder into his office about the fact that, what did

1260
00:53:58.019 --> 00:53:58.260
I say?

1261
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:01.079
No robots, no bug-eyed monsters and all that sort of stuff and she

1262
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:03.179
gives the same in this.

1263
00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:05.639
She gives the same defence of it, you know, they're not bug-eyed

1264
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:06.059
monsters.

1265
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:09.059
A civilisation that's had a nuclear war and they've had to retreat

1266
00:54:09.059 --> 00:54:10.500
into these shells and blah, blah, blah, blah.

1267
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:14.400
And it is actually, again, why Doctor Who is so great is because

1268
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:15.840
they're not just monsters.

1269
00:54:15.900 --> 00:54:17.639
They're not just robots.

1270
00:54:17.699 --> 00:54:19.920
There's another layer of depth to them.

1271
00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:22.380
And I think that's what this helps to underline.

1272
00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:26.219
And Mark turns that moment into a character beat for verity for

1273
00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:27.900
creating verity as a character.

1274
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:30.840
And not just the fact that she stands up to Sydney and, you know

1275
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:32.340
she tells him what's what.

1276
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:33.599
It's when she's leaving.

1277
00:54:33.659 --> 00:54:36.239
She turns around to him after she's just been hauled over the

1278
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:39.539
coals and says, by the way, I want to repeat. no one saw it.

1279
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:41.039
And that's a parting shot.

1280
00:54:41.099 --> 00:54:43.380
And so you think she's not cowed by this at all.

1281
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:47.519
She also stands up to him about the title sequence as well, which

1282
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:51.239
he thinks is too scary and she says, no, it's brilliant.

1283
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:52.199
And the music.

1284
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:53.280
Yeah, yeah.

1285
00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:56.579
Because there are, you know, because they are what was

1286
00:54:56.579 --> 00:54:57.300
frightening.

1287
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.159
That was what was frightening.

1288
00:54:59.219 --> 00:55:00.300
People were scared by the music.

1289
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:02.159
Like when it 1st came out.

1290
00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:03.659
It's weird and strange.

1291
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:07.679
It sort of demarcates this weird 25 minutes of TV.

1292
00:55:07.739 --> 00:55:09.539
Yes, from what's around it.

1293
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:10.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1294
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:19.739
My big disappointment, if you're talking about cuts to the floor

1295
00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:23.460
all of that analogue tape up and down the corridors, I really

1296
00:55:23.460 --> 00:55:27.300
would have liked that extra 12 seconds of Delia Derbyshire

1297
00:55:27.300 --> 00:55:28.019
Hodgson.

1298
00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:32.159
She is extraordinary and there isn't an electronic musician in the

1299
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:32.699
UK.

1300
00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:34.679
Even craft folk knew who she was.

1301
00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:36.000
She's really important.

1302
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:40.019
And there was more of, I think, a comparison between her and

1303
00:55:40.019 --> 00:55:43.500
verity as, you know, forthright fashionable young women making

1304
00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:45.360
their way in the BBC that could have been made.

1305
00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:47.039
It's a shame it was left on the cutting room floor.

1306
00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:49.199
Making their way or forcing their way.

1307
00:55:49.260 --> 00:55:49.920
Yeah.

1308
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:53.099
I want to talk about my favourite scene, which is Verity's

1309
00:55:53.099 --> 00:55:57.780
departure, where we go from the surface of the planet Vortis where

1310
00:55:57.780 --> 00:56:00.360
they're inexplicably having the party because who cares?

1311
00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:06.539
And we go into the TARDIS for her to talk about why she's

1312
00:56:06.539 --> 00:56:07.739
leaving.

1313
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:11.219
And there are moments in this where I tear up, obviously

1314
00:56:11.219 --> 00:56:15.840
originally when Matt Smith appeared and saluted him, even though

1315
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:18.480
he is so, so terribly green screened in.

1316
00:56:18.539 --> 00:56:19.619
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1317
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:21.000
But again, he's not really there.

1318
00:56:21.059 --> 00:56:24.599
You know, he's not, but anyway, I'll talk about this later.

1319
00:56:24.659 --> 00:56:29.519
But it's, I think that that's a companion departure scene and it's

1320
00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:32.519
it takes place on the Tartar set.

1321
00:56:32.579 --> 00:56:36.179
And so she's telling Doctor Who that she's not going to stay with

1322
00:56:36.179 --> 00:56:37.440
him any longer.

1323
00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:42.599
And I think it's so beautifully done. she kisses him and goes

1324
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:43.019
doesn't she?

1325
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:45.420
Yeah, it's proper lump in your throat, material.

1326
00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:48.900
And it's a decent departure you've seen as opposed to, I just met

1327
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:49.260
someone.

1328
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:50.400
I'm gonna go get married now.

1329
00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:53.579
Oh, it would have been brilliant if they push Verity out in our

1330
00:56:53.579 --> 00:56:53.940
lock.

1331
00:56:54.900 --> 00:56:58.500
They just lock the doors and tell her she has to get on with her

1332
00:56:58.500 --> 00:57:03.659
life. get on this trampoline bounce away.

1333
00:57:04.739 --> 00:57:08.340
And of course, the other one is Matt's final appearance.

1334
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:09.659
Yeah, that was kind of nice.

1335
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:11.219
I mean, that I mean, I liked it.

1336
00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:13.800
It's good, but I don't know whether it was necessary.

1337
00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:15.900
No, absolutely necessary.

1338
00:57:16.019 --> 00:57:17.699
I absolutely loved it.

1339
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:19.920
I think it is the perfect concluding moment.

1340
00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:24.539
It's Bill Hartnall realising that despite the fact that he's been

1341
00:57:24.539 --> 00:57:26.940
on this wonderful journey, he's effectively been forced out of the

1342
00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:30.000
role, he has set up something which will run and run and this will

1343
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:30.780
be his legacy.

1344
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:32.880
It's the legacy that he never had and he's found it.

1345
00:57:32.940 --> 00:57:38.219
And it's also the doctor's chance to go in there and salute him

1346
00:57:38.219 --> 00:57:40.500
for making it possible as well.

1347
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:43.139
Yes, it's it's actually not the 11th doctor.

1348
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:43.980
It actually Matt Smith.

1349
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:45.360
Yeah, if I can put it that way.

1350
00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:48.780
Okay, I'm thinking it's the doctor, you know, it's like the doctor

1351
00:57:48.780 --> 00:57:52.079
has Bill Hartnell to thank for his existence in a way.

1352
00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:53.699
And the look on Matt's face.

1353
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:57.300
I mean, Matt never doesn't deliver, but the look is so affecting.

1354
00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:01.679
It's such kind of fondness and almost saluting him.

1355
00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:03.000
It's beautiful.

1356
00:58:03.059 --> 00:58:06.840
The only issue I have with it is it just nails it to the Matt

1357
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:11.159
Smith era as opposed to nailing it to eternity if it was, you have

1358
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:12.539
to have someone there to be the doctor.

1359
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:14.820
Do you not think it's nailing at the end of the nursery?

1360
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:16.619
So that's fine too. to the 50th.

1361
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:16.860
Yeah.

1362
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:20.460
But seeing out of context from the 50th anniversary is just like

1363
00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:21.239
why is why this guy?

1364
00:58:21.300 --> 00:58:22.800
Yeah, why is somebody else?

1365
00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:24.179
Yeah, where's Shooty?

1366
00:58:24.239 --> 00:58:26.099
I suppose, yes. exactly.

1367
00:58:26.159 --> 00:58:30.119
And I suppose that's why I, that's my only subtle problem with it

1368
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:32.400
is it actually comes down to that fact.

1369
00:58:32.460 --> 00:58:34.199
It makes it less timeless.

1370
00:58:34.260 --> 00:58:36.539
The fact that it nails it to the 50th.

1371
00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:38.579
And in fact, if you're going to nail it to the 50th, you're almost

1372
00:58:38.579 --> 00:58:42.480
better at having Peter Capaldi standing there as the future, as...

1373
00:58:42.539 --> 00:58:43.739
No, I have to disagree with that.

1374
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:46.800
Well, I think the contrast between William Hartnell is the 1st

1375
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.280
doctor and Matt Smith is the youngest ever doctor leading it

1376
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:52.260
forward 50 years later is something useful.

1377
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:53.579
Yep.

1378
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:57.059
It's the only bit of magic. in it.

1379
00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.820
And I suppose it can afford, we can afford a little bit.

1380
00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:01.739
Mark Gatis is a bit literal, I think.

1381
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:06.000
He wouldn't, I think, have written the scene that we imagined at

1382
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.239
the beginning where the doctor gets into the Tartar and sort of

1383
00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:11.460
disappears at the end.

1384
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:14.699
He just wouldn't do that, but this was enough magic.

1385
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:18.659
Talking about Mark Gatis, again, we sort of mentioned towards the

1386
00:59:18.659 --> 00:59:21.000
beginning of this, that this is the best thing he's ever done for

1387
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:21.659
Doctor Who.

1388
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:26.039
And I wonder whether it's partly because, you know, he's writing

1389
00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:28.860
this as a fan in the way that you can't really write the actual

1390
00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:31.739
program as a fan without making it terrible.

1391
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.059
He's writing from what he knows.

1392
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:34.500
He's writing waiters.

1393
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:36.539
But I'm actually wondering also too whether his Doctor Who

1394
00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:39.900
episodes are not actually what he really wants to do in the

1395
00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:40.380
episodes.

1396
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:43.320
It's kind of a bit of a compromise with the showrunner of the

1397
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:43.500
day.

1398
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:45.360
This is just a natural thing that happens.

1399
00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:48.420
And so there's always that conflict, that bit of, it means they

1400
00:59:48.420 --> 00:59:52.380
don't quite sit as nicely as this does, which is his baby.

1401
00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:55.559
The one thing that I love about it, and this is just a small thing

1402
00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:59.280
is the way it does end with the clip from the actual clip of Hart

1403
00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:04.440
from Dalek Invasion of Earth, which for any fan of our age, who

1404
01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:06.659
was experiencing the 5 doctors for the 1st time.

1405
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.179
Yes, tying the 50th into the 20th.

1406
01:00:10.019 --> 01:00:10.440
But it does.

1407
01:00:10.500 --> 01:00:13.800
It oddly ties the 50th into the original, but also into the 20th

1408
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:15.960
because of that because that for many of us.

1409
01:00:16.019 --> 01:00:18.119
I mean, unless you lived in Britain with, you know, the fire faces

1410
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:18.780
repeat.

1411
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:24.000
This is the only bit of Hartnell that we ever saw in our fan youth

1412
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:28.019
was this fragment, which starts the 5 doctors, and it's forever

1413
01:00:28.019 --> 01:00:33.360
associated with an anniversary, and it's almost more in the 5

1414
01:00:33.360 --> 01:00:36.059
doctors than it is in Dalek Invasion of Earth, if you know what I

1415
01:00:36.059 --> 01:00:36.239
mean.

1416
01:00:36.300 --> 01:00:39.119
And I think that's a lovely way to finish it off rather than

1417
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:41.340
finding another speech is to just use that speech again.

1418
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:44.519
I mean, let's not kid ourselves than if the massacre part 4

1419
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:47.039
existed, that wouldn't have been the speech that was used.

1420
01:00:47.099 --> 01:00:50.519
Yeah, I think that's a magnificent speech and I think it is a

1421
01:00:50.519 --> 01:00:56.579
slight shame. that this production sees Bill unable to deliver

1422
01:00:56.579 --> 01:01:00.599
that speech, where he really, really nails it.

1423
01:01:00.659 --> 01:01:03.539
It's so good. about the massacre.

1424
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:04.980
Arguably.

1425
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.900
I thought I thought he is.

1426
01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:08.760
I mean, he's not stumbling because that is actually the one of the

1427
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:09.360
inaccuracies.

1428
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:10.860
He doesn't stumble over speech.

1429
01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:13.320
Nearly as much, but I think he does stumble over it a bit, doesn't

1430
01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:13.500
he?

1431
01:01:13.559 --> 01:01:14.639
He says, in the massacre.

1432
01:01:14.699 --> 01:01:15.719
He says Madison.

1433
01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:16.619
Yes, okay.

1434
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:19.139
But that's consistent with that's consistent.

1435
01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:19.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1436
01:01:44.340 --> 01:01:47.400
Well, new listener, that's all we have time for.

1437
01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:51.059
Till now, we'll be vacuuming just a couple of days to see how the

1438
01:01:51.059 --> 01:01:54.780
eighth doctor has been getting on in the night of the doctor.

1439
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:58.800
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1440
01:01:58.800 --> 01:02:01.679
and you can keep up with us at flight through entirety on Facebook

1441
01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:04.860
at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website

1442
01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:07.739
flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find links to our other

1443
01:02:07.739 --> 01:02:12.719
podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Intetera, maximum power, and untitled

1444
01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:13.679
Star Trek project.

1445
01:02:14.099 --> 01:02:19.199
Until next time, remember, it all started out as a mild curiosity

1446
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:22.500
in a junkyard, and now it's turned out to be quite a great spirit

1447
01:02:22.500 --> 01:02:23.940
of adventure, don't you think?

1448
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:26.400
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1449
01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:27.539
Good night.

1450
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:28.199
Bye bye.

1451
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:29.039
Bye.

1452
01:02:29.099 --> 01:02:30.539
Oh, still sobbing.

1453
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:30.900
Bye.

1454
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:41.579
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1455
01:02:41.579 --> 01:02:43.920
Griffiths, Greg Miller, Simon Moore, and Richard Stone.

1456
01:02:43.980 --> 01:02:46.139
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb.

1457
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:49.440
These episode on the set of the Reign of Terror was recorded on

1458
01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:52.800
the 10th of July 2022 and released on the 20th of November.

1459
01:02:55.860 --> 01:02:58.920
Keep an eye on your podcatcher this week as Flight through

1460
01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:02.880
Entirety celebrates Doctor Who's 50th and 59th anniversaries with

1461
01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:04.980
4 new episodes over the next 7 days.

1462
01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:06.780
See you back here on Tuesday.

1463
01:03:19.500 --> 01:03:21.420
Do we wanna talk more?

1464
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:22.139
I don't know.

1465
01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:22.860
Yeah I don't mind.

1466
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:24.840
We can drop about that.

1467
01:03:24.900 --> 01:03:25.860
Yeah, okay, drop it back.

1468
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:29.159
I think David Bradley is...

1469
01:03:29.820 --> 01:03:31.739
I think David Bradley absolutely nails it.

1470
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:36.360
As we've discussed earlier about the, you know, that bit from that

1471
01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:39.539
interview post-10th planet when he's doing the pantomime or

1472
01:03:39.539 --> 01:03:43.019
whatever and the gruffness and the and the and the seriousness

1473
01:03:43.019 --> 01:03:44.579
there, he really gets that.

1474
01:03:44.699 --> 01:03:47.940
He manages to get an entire performance out of effectively, one

1475
01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:50.760
bit of film, footage that exists of heart and all.

1476
01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:55.079
My favourite sequences of him is when Sydney's telling him that

1477
01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:58.679
the time is up and he's going to be moved on and then the

1478
01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:01.980
subsequent sequence with his wife in front of the fire.

1479
01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:05.039
I mean, it's just so... don't want to go.

1480
01:04:05.099 --> 01:04:05.820
I don't want to go.

1481
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:06.239
Yeah.

1482
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:06.840
Yeah.

1483
01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:08.519
It's really beautiful.

1484
01:04:08.579 --> 01:04:11.280
Okay, I'm name dropping all over the place in this episode.

1485
01:04:11.340 --> 01:04:12.059
That is your function.

1486
01:04:12.119 --> 01:04:14.039
But I've worked with David Bradley.

1487
01:04:14.099 --> 01:04:16.980
I worked him on with him on the Granada series Reckless, and he is

1488
01:04:16.980 --> 01:04:18.300
such, yeah, he was.

1489
01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:19.739
He played Robson Green's father.

1490
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:23.280
And he is such a warm and lovely man.

1491
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:27.300
And the fact that he brings that gruffness to Bill Hartnell is a

1492
01:04:27.300 --> 01:04:27.960
proper performance.

1493
01:04:28.019 --> 01:04:32.519
I mean, he's he's 17 years older than Bill Hartnall in the role

1494
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:34.320
which is quite amazing when you think about it.

1495
01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:37.679
Simon, you and I are 5 years younger than William Hartnall when

1496
01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:38.400
he's cast in the role.

1497
01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:39.960
I mean, you just can't really get your head around that.

1498
01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:43.559
And he's also about 5 feet taller than William Martin.

1499
01:04:43.619 --> 01:04:48.239
But he does such a great job of capturing the essence, not only of

1500
01:04:48.239 --> 01:04:50.280
the doctor, but of the man.

1501
01:04:50.340 --> 01:04:52.679
And that's that's a difficult thing to do in a role.

1502
01:04:52.739 --> 01:04:55.500
I also find it a very respectful performance.

1503
01:04:55.559 --> 01:05:04.619
He's very keen to portray Bill in all of his shades and not to be

1504
01:05:04.619 --> 01:05:08.760
disrespectful or to make it into a humourous thing as happened

1505
01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:14.760
when next he played the part on TV when he was super sexist and a

1506
01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:16.320
bit dim in my view.

1507
01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.579
Yeah, yeah.

1508
01:05:17.639 --> 01:05:21.539
I mean, we'll talk eventually about what's going on there.

1509
01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:26.460
But it was a, he was a good choice to play the 1st doctor in twice

1510
01:05:26.460 --> 01:05:27.059
upon a time.

1511
01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:31.199
Yeah, and twice upon a time is lampooning the doctor for better or

1512
01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:34.440
for worse, whereas, you know, this doesn't lampoon William Hart.

1513
01:05:34.500 --> 01:05:36.780
No, it's possibly a difference in the writer.

1514
01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:38.099
Yes, at least of that.

1515
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:38.519
Yeah.

1516
01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:41.219
Mark Gatas has a heavy connection to both.

1517
01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:46.440
In recent years is he was in another show called The Strain where

1518
01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:49.619
he's basically fighting vampires, so I just like to imagine it as

1519
01:05:49.619 --> 01:05:51.480
William Hartnell Vampire Hunter.

1520
01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:55.500
But he sort of works in, like, he's in Broadchurch and it's in

1521
01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:58.440
Broadchurch, rather like Richard Herndell in that like 7 episode.

1522
01:05:58.500 --> 01:05:59.760
Knebrocks.

1523
01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:00.239
Yeah.

1524
01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:03.179
You've got you've got a kind of an audition piece.

1525
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:04.920
You came in too quick with that name.

1526
01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:12.960
Yeah, so you don't want to wait for them to bring round the

1527
01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:13.559
Mangand.

1528
01:06:13.559 --> 01:06:16.679
What were you saying?

1529
01:06:16.739 --> 01:06:18.059
think I said it.

1530
01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:19.800
What do we think?

1531
01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:24.719
I'm good Okay. good discussion Yeah.

1532
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:26.400
It's just beautiful.

1533
01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:27.659
Oh, sorry, can I just have one more line?

1534
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:28.440
You can edit this out.

1535
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:32.760
This for me still remains the real 50th anniversary special.

1536
01:06:32.820 --> 01:06:37.440
This is the external facing 50th anniversary special.

1537
01:06:37.500 --> 01:06:41.760
The five-ish doctors is the internal 50th anniversary, special, and

1538
01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:43.679
then they do this other thing as well.

1539
01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:48.119
And it's all tied up with when you originally watched it.

1540
01:06:48.179 --> 01:06:54.480
So I watched this with a group of fans and to a one, we were misty

1541
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:57.539
eyed at the end of it because this is just, this is our story.

1542
01:06:57.599 --> 01:06:59.699
This is the story of the program we love.

1543
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.940
It's the story of the program that we grew up with, and we're

1544
01:07:02.940 --> 01:07:07.320
watching in real time how it, how it became that thing.

1545
01:07:07.380 --> 01:07:08.460
It's quite incredible.

1546
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:11.280
Yeah, that was good.

1547
01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:14.099
Yeah, you're upset that I'm saying.

1548
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:15.659
Do you not like Day of the Doctor?

1549
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:16.980
I think day of the doctor is fantastic.

1550
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:18.119
I think it's a bit ordinary.

1551
01:07:18.179 --> 01:07:18.480
Do you?

1552
01:07:18.539 --> 01:07:19.380
It's a really good idea.

1553
01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:19.860
Yeah, yeah.

1554
01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:21.960
But this is the 50th anniversary for me.

1555
01:07:22.019 --> 01:07:22.260
Yes.