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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:29:53

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that checks its lagomorphs carefully before monologuing at them.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm John Hurt under a dust cover for this one.

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Well, we all know what happened 59 years ago today, but 9 years ago today, we were all experiencing a day that will be forever written on our little fanboy hearts.

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So let's see what we remember about what happened on the day of the doctor.

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Do you remember the first time you saw this?

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Where were you when you saw this for the first time, Todd?

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Was I in the UK?

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I think you were, yes.

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Yes, because I'd been to the 50th.

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I'd been to the 50th anniversary event and then we were back at, I think, I think it was Peter's house actually.

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Yeah, we were watching it as a group and I just remember struggling with the cat because I'm allergic and so I was battling battling sore eyes and and a constricted throat, but I was still, you know, loving what I was saying is what I could say.

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That's where I was.

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Yeah, okay.

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Do you remember Brendan?

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Yeah, because I had to work, like it was on in cinemas here before it was on telly, and I did have tickets booked for like a 930 screening, but then I was doing a job on The Voice, and it was an audition tour.

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So, you know, I couldn't exactly take a day off because that was what it was scheduled for.

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So I had to give up my cinema ticket, switch my phone off so no one texted me about what was in the episode and then rush home afterwards and watch it on iview.

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Did you remain unspoiled?

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I mean, there's one or 2 things that you don't want to be spoiled. not for you.

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I'm finding it hard to remember.

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I think I knew about Tom.

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Okay.

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But I think I knew about Tom before.

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You know, I think he had been somehow seen or something like that.

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But I could be wrong.

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And then I went to the cinema the next day to see it.

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I moved my ticket or I forfeited or gave it to someone or ate it or something.

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Do you have any memories from 9 years ago at all?

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Just a number, isn't it?

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as we say at our age.

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I thought we all saw it at the cinema together.

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So my memory is that I went to James's place and we had bubbly.

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We had some bubbly Shiraz at sort of 6 o'clock in the morning or something and then watched it on iPlayer.

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It's Ribena for Adels.

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You know what?

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That's why I switched my phone off because you guys texted me saying we're watching it now.

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I love you and I trust you, but I don't trust you.

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But then James and I went to the cinema later that day and saw it in 3D. And it still does work without 3D, but I do like that it, it was just James and me, I think.

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Yeah, it was in 3D. Was it in 3D?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think Richard, you and I went the next day.

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Because I think I saw it with you in the city.

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Definitely remember cinema. cinema.

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So in a blur.

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So the... wept.

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We wept.

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I did not know Tom was coming.

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No, I needed to keep my poodra very much on a high shelf.

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I didn't know either.

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Like, it's just that lump in the throat.

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Well, it's when you hear him, the brilliance of hearing him before...

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Britain, Britain.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Actually, I definitely saw it with Richard because I've been to several Doctor Who cinema screenings with Richard and Richard has this thing where if something surprising happens like Tom Baker turning up suddenly my arm is in a vice.

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Yes, I bring one with me.

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And for those of you who haven't seen Richard and I together in person, I'm 5 foot four, Richard 6 foot three. 6 foot two, I beg your pardon.

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Let's not ever extend it.

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And he's a very solid gentleman.

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He actually dressed as a lumberjack today and looking the part.

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Didn't bring my own lunch, but.

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But yes, no, it, yes, I do remember squealing audibly.

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I think there was some of that Yes, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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God, it was good, wasn't it?

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Yeah, I've only read the Target novel.

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I have to say, for this audio commentlair.

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Yeah, I didn't watch it. because that's what we used to do as young people.

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We read the book.

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So I'm coming to this as a 10 year old, yeah.

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I mentioned the book actually in yesterday's episode provided I don't decide to cut that beard.

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And it is amazingly good.

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I read it on Nathan's recommendation originally.

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So you just got to buy this.

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Oh, I can't be.

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Oh, and I didn't.

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Ooh.

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Ooh.

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And it takes a bit longer.

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And it does some lovely nods to Douglas Adams and to, well, really the whole history of Doctor Who writers.

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There's lots of little ticks to Terence and Malcolm in his, some of his wordplay, which just made my spine go funny in a good way.

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I was talking to Simon and Peter about this. and about the 3 big celebrations. which are, of course, an adventure in space and time, the 5-ish doctors reboot and this.

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And which one do you like the most, which one do you have the most love for, and why?

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And we were talking about like we're classic series fans, we just absolutely adore an adventure in time and space.

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Obviously, the 5 doctors reboot has so many classic people in there.

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And then I sort of made the generic comment, oh, you know, it's the classic stuff that really gets to me.

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But it's more than that.

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It's actually the interaction between classic and Yuhu.

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That the stuff that gets to me.

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It's when David Bradley looks at Matt Smith in that, and I sort of break down in tears, and it's when you hear Tom's voice and that whole sequence and interaction with Matt Smith in this, that you're well up and you get tears.

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Five Shock's reboot is a bit different.

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Like, I didn't sort of get tears, but it's all that interaction, how it's so interlinked with new who.

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And that's the stuff that, not to say, there's other stuff that I don't love in this, I didn't interact.

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I always love having doctors interact with each other, but it's all the pictures in the background of the classic companions and all that, that as a classic fan.

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It's just magical.

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And I don't want to say that if you're a new who fan, then that's going to mean anything less because if you go back and watch it all and have watched it all, then you're a fan of Doctor Who.

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But it's just something that has struck me.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think it's El Sandefer, who is the one who said that this is the show that heals the breach of the wilderness years by bringing classic Doctor Who back and letting the new series kind of encompass it.

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And I think maybe it's not super obvious, but I think maybe the best representative of the classic series is in some ways John Hurt.

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You know, he's older, he's posh, he's got the posh accent, David Tenner, he's fun of it.

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Yeah, he's had a career before, and he doesn't really like the younger members of the cast.

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There's a lot of historical truth in this.

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It's the thing where he looks at the 2 doctors from the new series and can't believe how kind of stupid they are. you know, like how they speak like children, how they wave their.

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I mean, I can imagine Simon criticising the new series doctors for waving their sonic screwdriver around like a water pistol and here is John Hurt doing that.

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So he's a classic series doctor that we've never kind of heard of.

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It's really out of the obelisk, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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So he's invited onto the program to make fun of how stupid it is.

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And one of the things that he does is that he notices what those doctors do despite their weird, unimpressive appearance and that makes him make the decision.

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But I think that that's a place and maybe an overlooked place where the classic series interacts in this episode.

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It's really interesting because I'd heard rumours at the time that, you know, some people felt this whole war doctor concept was a misbegotten sort of idea and, you know, couldn't get Eccleston.

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BBC didn't want McGann, who I think both could have stepped into that.

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Is that why I did not know that.

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That's what we think.

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And I think that McGann could have done this.

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I think he would have been prudent.

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And I personally don't think it would have mattered who had done that role.

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Yeah, Stephen said he'd finished writing it from again. yeah.

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I think at this point, the audiences with Doctor Who, everything is built up to this moment, right?

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So if it had been McGann, I don't think you would have got any less viewers.

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No, if it had been John Hurt.

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Like, I just don't think there's any difference.

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I mean, I mentioned when we were doing time with the doctor for me when John Hurt appeared.

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It was like, oh, well, great.

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But it didn't really mean anything to me.

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I was not blown away by that, that.

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I mean, it's interesting now coming into this, like he was built as the doctor at the end of that, but we've had the night of the doctor where he's actually build as the war doctor.

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So as a fan, you know that's where this is, where this is coming from.

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I think you're very right about how the performance is very classic series.

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And I think it is, I think it's wonderful in it.

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And I think it works so well and it's really interesting.

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When I went into it, I was not determined not to like it like I normally am.

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But I was deeply concerned about the concept, Brendan. about this war doctor and how it wouldn't work.

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But Stephen Moffat is a very clever man.

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Yes, he's up against it with all of the constraints and having to tie everything together and come up with this and it works.

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And you know how I like all my teas to be crossed and eyes to be dotted.

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And if they're not, then I'm really not happy.

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I'm very, very happy.

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It just he's just splendid.

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Yeah, it just, look, it just works.

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And the sort of tying back of John Hurts, the classic series mode of doctor, when Eccleston declined to do it and they couldn't get Paul McGann, Stephen Moffatt had to come up with this idea and his starting point was the 5 doctors, but not necessarily in the way you might expect.

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Richard Herndle.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Android.

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Well, the thing is, he was considering for a while not doing a multidoctor story because he's like, you know, that's a bit of a misnomer.

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Not every anniversary has a multi-doctor story kind of thing.

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But yes, then he thought about Richard Herndle.

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And he thought about, and we discussed this on the podcast before, how Richard Herndle's 1st doctor isn't actually all that much like William Hartnell's 1st doctor.

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It's almost like he's this entirely new incarnation with adventures you haven't seen.

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Oh my god, I've just saved the 50th anniversary, said Stephen Moffat.

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So he went to the BBC with this idea and said, but this will only work if we get a big name actor that bypasses people going, but they were never the doctor to go to.

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I don't care that they were the never the doctor because they're John Hurt.

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And that it actually melds another idea he had in a fit of madness because after the end of series 7, Jenna Coleman was the only person contracted.

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Yeah.

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So Matt Smith's contract ended, his initial contract ended with name of the doctor, and he hadn't said, I won't do more, but he was getting film offers.

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He actually leaves this and immediately flies to America to do a film, and that's when he shaves his head and has to wear the wig for time of the doctor.

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Or the Adric inheritance as a team in this group.

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Yeah.

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Like, Tenant came off one thing onto this and immediately onto another thing.

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So it was hard to get Tenant.

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So Stephen Moffatt did initially have this idea that the 50th anniversary would be Clara meeting a bunch of different celebrities playing the doctor and basically the doctor would change every few scenes and he's like, Joanna Lumley, Miriam Mogli, Serene McCallen, da da.

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The sofa of reasonable.

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Yes, exactly.

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Exactly.

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But, you know, that was Stephen Moffat going, I don't have a doctor.

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I have all the doctors and he's kind of said in an interview since that would have been awful.

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Well, we've seen it.

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There wasn't that bad.

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It's amazing how John Hertz doctor comes out of a period of adversity because they were they were close to getting Eccleston and then he's just like, no, I'm just not ready to go back and do that again.

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Yeah, especially seeing as we've since found out how painful it was for him to leave and how he felt he was blacklisted afterwards and what have you.

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It's amazing. you know, there's multiple sides, of course.

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But it's amazing he even considered it, in my opinion.

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But yeah, we get John Hurt, who's who's lovely and sweet, but you totally believe will blow up half the universe.

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Yeah, I mean, he is quite lovely almost immediately.

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So when he turns up, when those when those men turn up to look for the doctor who has bewitched Queen Elizabeth I and they say something about, you know, we want the doctor's head or something like that, and John Hirche smiles broadly and says, well, this has all the makings of your lucky day.

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Yes, it's wonderful because he has been so sombre and so solemn up until that point.

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That's the point where for me he became the doctor, I think.

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I always think it's such a shame that he only calls himself the doctor once at the end. and he doesn't get to be really called the doctor very much at all.

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But you know, that's just an observation.

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I think it's also quite funny that the 2 companions, and I put that in quotes here, Clara and Rose, or Bad Wolf, or the moment.

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The only 2 actresses that thus far in you who have actually witnessed a generation or are going to witness a generation from one doctor to the next.

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But to be fair, we have also witnessed that with Billy's teeth.

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The moment was, could have just been a box on a something else. was an entirely different head.

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I actually really like her as the moment.

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Is this the moment?

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She is the best thing in the special.

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She can act the box off and out of any of the others.

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No, and she actually, those scenes with her.

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You can actually see him.

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Just my opinion.

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You can actually see him rise a little bit in standard too.

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He's not just doing grumpy Grandpa Panto.

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You can actually see.

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She's got the spark.

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She's the Claudia Winkleman of Doctor Who.

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She's the strictly come dancing of Doctor.

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If you know Claudius.

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Anyway, Claudia Muinklemanon strictly has a very manic, yet controlled manner that is charming and yet completely random.

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And Billy has a manic quality in her eye in this that, I don't know whether it's years with Chris Evans, but I can believe everything she says.

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She has a psychotic joy about her.

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She's extraordinary and hurt rises to that.

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Yeah.

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And she also has real proper feelings.

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Like, we're we're told by the general that the weapon is so powerful. its operating system developed a conscience and she is absolutely engineering and permitting this to happen, giving the doctor the chance to do a redo and get the decision right.

208
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And she, when the doctor goes back, when the war doctor goes back with a renewed determination to blow everyone up, it seems like it hasn't worked, she's really heartbroken and she really sells it.

209
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:55.799
And, you know, there's no character to hang that on.

210
00:16:55.860 --> 00:17:00.539
It's not like Rose, who is an identifiable sort of TV character.

211
00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.019
She's playing the moment, which is what the hell is that?

212
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.420
And she absolutely kills it.

213
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:18.839
She's funny and silly and manic, as Richard said, but also sombre and really, really desperate to ensure that the weapon isn't used the way that it was the 1st time through.

214
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:26.220
Is this special actually as good as it is because we get the legacy of Russell and Andy Pryce and Phil's?

215
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.779
I guess Julie, but just their understanding of what good casting is.

216
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:32.880
Because just to throw it in there.

217
00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:33.839
I mean, Matt is lovely.

218
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:35.400
Of course, he's lovely and everyone else is lovely.

219
00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:42.720
And maybe it's nostalgia, but the real punches on the screen are everyone that's from Russell's 1st few years.

220
00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:49.380
I think too, that this engages with Russell's Doctor Who really very thorough going.

221
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:50.039
Maybe we were just as well.

222
00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:56.220
Yeah, maybe we were just missing it in the same way that audiences in 73 must have been missing Pat.

223
00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:57.180
Yeah, yeah.

224
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:58.799
Yeah, I think that's I think that's right.

225
00:17:58.859 --> 00:18:02.400
He does a very good version of David Tennant.

226
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.440
He's written for David Tennant before, obviously.

227
00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:12.420
He picks up Queen Elizabeth Gag from End of Time, part one. just love the way he keeps insulting her all the time.

228
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.640
She's great too.

229
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:16.380
She is Joanna Page, yeah.

230
00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:17.759
She's lovely in this.

231
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.500
Stacy from Gavin and Stacy.

232
00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:20.640
Oh God, and she's so good.

233
00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.819
I think Stephen Moffatt is actually the best rider for tenants, doctor.

234
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:24.839
Yeah, yeah.

235
00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:25.440
Well, yeah.

236
00:18:25.500 --> 00:18:28.980
Like the stuff that he wrote in Russell's era was superb, everyone.

237
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:29.759
He got him.

238
00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:31.259
He also got Eccleston.

239
00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:33.299
I would have loved to have seen him write for Eccleston.

240
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:39.599
Look, there are storyboards of the soldier, give me your gun blasting away no more in the wall.

241
00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:42.839
There are storyboards of Eccleston in that moment.

242
00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:48.240
So that's how far along they got in pre-production, thinking we might get him.

243
00:18:48.299 --> 00:19:05.759
And, you know, Stephen Moffatt sort of has his post-rationalization of, you know, the good thing about bringing in John Hurt is that if your favourite doctor is Paul McGann or Christopher Eccleston, you don't have to square them being your favourite doctor with them being a genocidal warrior, you know, because now you've got this other one we can project onto.

244
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:06.720
Yeah, you know.

245
00:19:06.779 --> 00:19:19.740
And when we have talked about the doctor doing questionable things in the past and immediately springing to mind is the twin dilemma, one of the things we talked about back then was how uncomfortable that made us because this is our hero.

246
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.279
So the war doctor gives us that out.

247
00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:29.460
And John Hurt then subsequently did the War Doctor series with Big Finish.

248
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:37.680
And there was always that tension with the character of doing quote unquote the wrong thing for the right reasons.

249
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.579
And of course, unfortunately, John Hurt is no longer with us.

250
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:51.900
But that was a really nice perfect series of 12 plays and no disrespect intended to the newer ones they're doing with Jonathan Carly, who does an amazing version of the character as well.

251
00:19:52.019 --> 00:19:57.599
And then this as sort of his finale because this does end up being the War Doctor's finale.

252
00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:03.119
But it's amazing how well the character works just by himself.

253
00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:10.319
You know, when we come across the 10th doctor, the 10th doctor is in the midst of his own adventure somewhere between the waters of Mars and the end of time.

254
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:15.059
You know, because he's ended the waters of Mars going, I'm really sad.

255
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:20.339
And so I'm going to go off and find out Queen Elizabeth's Zigon.

256
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.359
Yeah.

257
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.940
In fact, it is a little bit of a cheat.

258
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:30.960
It is a little bit of a coincidence that Tennant is at one end of the Zygon invasion and Matt is at the other end.

259
00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:35.460
So they both turned up at the same time in the same invasion.

260
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:38.640
And so we have kind of 2 stories, don't we?

261
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:42.960
We have the Zygon invasion story with them hiding in the paintings and bursting out.

262
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:50.759
And then we have the moment interrupting that story in order to persuade the war doctor not to push the button.

263
00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:03.599
And both of those stories are quite simple, which I think really works, because it does give us what we want, which is time hanging out with those characters, I think.

264
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:24.960
It's gonna go back to what Richard was saying about, like, all the Russell characters and that, and them shining perhaps more.

265
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:27.720
I don't necessarily agree with that point of view.

266
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:42.599
I actually think it's one of these things where like in the 3 doctors, like John Pertuis is very competent, but as you were saying, it's like suddenly having Pat and William coming down in his bubble, like that gives you, like, you sort of connect with that.

267
00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:44.759
Yeah, that's the rasmataz.

268
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:47.519
So having these people back, you're sort of looking at that sparkle.

269
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:57.900
I think Billy is extraordinary and all the cutting with her there, not there and the lines that hark back to things with tenet and kissing and all that. you know, it's all just icing on the cake.

270
00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.420
But I actually think that Matt is extraordinarily good.

271
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.099
He's the glue that holds everything together.

272
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:10.500
Well, perhaps it's actually Jenna, who's the glue that holds everything together because she is interacting with all 3 doctors at various points.

273
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:15.960
And the moment she begins to cry or tears get in her eyes at the end, it always gets to me.

274
00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:17.579
She really sells it.

275
00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:23.519
I don't know other people say that she's cold or whatever. she's the witch in the well or whatever she happens to be.

276
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.000
But I actually think she's absolutely perfect in this.

277
00:22:27.059 --> 00:22:31.859
Again, I think she's an extraordinary actress and Clara is just the right thing.

278
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.519
We were talking about, in our season 7 retrospective.

279
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:37.980
We had questions about whether Clara's time should have been done.

280
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:38.819
Well, no.

281
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah, she's magnificent enemies.

282
00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:42.660
And she's the one who saves the day.

283
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:44.099
I mean, the moment fails.

284
00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:59.819
She takes the doctor forward to see how Matt and David actually manage to save the world by using their experience of having destroyed Galifray as a kind of a warning or a moral lesson.

285
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:10.259
And so when the war doctor goes back, he's going to push the button, because he sees that their regret has spurred them on to save people.

286
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:15.480
And that's absolutely the wrong message, that's not the message he should have taken.

287
00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:21.839
And it's Clara. is the one who intervenes and says that you just can't do this.

288
00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:26.940
You can't be killing 2.800000000 children.

289
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:34.920
And because she's us, she's the audience, you know, and she's Moffat in a way too, I think.

290
00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:40.859
I don't think Moffatt likes the idea that the doctor killed everyone on Galifre.

291
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.019
And so he fixes it so that it didn't happen.

292
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.019
It's a very clever way he does it.

293
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.460
Like, he always has.

294
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:58.079
He introduces stuff. during an episode that you don't necessarily see how it's going to link to the ending, like the whole, the picture in the painting and I think all that's extraordinary having that moment.

295
00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:03.900
But also I think the other thing is his whole take on the war, like it's very interesting.

296
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.880
It's much more, this is a battle for the 2nd Arcadia, like the 2nd city of Galifre.

297
00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:14.579
It's all very much we're seeing gala frames and children and just the Daleks and that.

298
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:29.279
Whereas previously, Russell had talked about in the final episodes of tenant, what were all those, the hordes of whatever, you know, you know, has-beens or whatever, the could have been king and the army of his never was.

299
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:31.259
A nightmare children.

300
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:36.059
So things that in my head are concepts that I can't really get my head around.

301
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:42.720
Whereas here it's a much more, the war is much grittier and realer.

302
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:55.740
Like it's just more grounded as opposed to something out in space where I just imagine sort of ghouls and things flying through the air and just not just shooting lasers, which appears to be.

303
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:56.640
Yeah.

304
00:24:56.700 --> 00:25:10.559
So Russell actually describes the war in more detail in his novelisation of Rose, and he has like replica earths and gala phrase being recreated out of different times and hurled as missiles.

305
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:17.940
And, you know, like it's an absolutely bizarre and unfilmable conception of the war, and that works very well.

306
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.880
But once you've decided to depict it.

307
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:21.900
What do you do?

308
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:24.299
it becomes just gun.

309
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:28.079
Like the time war becomes incredibly gun.

310
00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:31.079
And that's why the doctor doesn't fit into it.

311
00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:35.579
You know, that's why the doctor doesn't belong there because it's just people with guns.

312
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:43.319
I think also we're meant to believe it's something of a war of attrition because in the sort of secret vault.

313
00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:46.319
They say, we've used all the weapons, except for the moment.

314
00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:50.759
You know, we've used all the fancy weapons that we can't depict on screen conveniently.

315
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.700
So now we're down to lasers.

316
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.319
Nemesis statue.

317
00:25:55.380 --> 00:25:56.759
Yeah, yeah, statue.

318
00:25:56.819 --> 00:26:00.059
Like, I just have her flag around Galifra.

319
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:02.099
That would have been so funny.

320
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.059
The decorative milk crate, that's all we've got.

321
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:07.920
Just have her fly up to the Daleks.

322
00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:10.200
I am beautiful You are not.

323
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:17.099
But it's the one thing that I do have a slight problem with is that what is depicted is not quite what was in my head.

324
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:18.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

325
00:26:18.779 --> 00:26:19.859
Yeah, and it's his takeoff.

326
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:30.420
The best thing about this is the five-ish doctors, and I've got to say listening to you or speaking, I'm having to run through my head going, was that in the special or was that five-ish because to me it's the same?

327
00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:43.680
You know, Stephen may not have those 3 doctors or 4 doctors in the special, but they couldn't have done what they did without his assistance and permission and love for the show and action figures.

328
00:26:43.740 --> 00:27:01.920
Yeah, I mean, he must he must have shared with Peter. what the script was because Peter inserts those 3 doctors into the scene in the undergallery because they're, they're hiding under the sheets that the cycle are hiding under.

329
00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:08.579
I think that what I've heard is Pete sort of said to Moffatt, is there a scene where we could be hiding in the background?

330
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:09.960
You don't have to tell me what it is.

331
00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:18.359
And so, 1st of all, they're like, well, we'll put you in 3 dalek casings, you know, 3 paradigm daleks who were never seen in the special.

332
00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:24.119
And then it's like, oh, well, actually, we've got these statues and you can hide as statues.

333
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:29.039
And I do understand there are some shots where it is.

334
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.720
It is them.

335
00:27:30.779 --> 00:27:34.140
Yeah, in like in the background of one or 2 of the Ingrid Oliver shots.

336
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:34.559
Apparently.

337
00:27:34.619 --> 00:27:36.000
It is those three.

338
00:27:36.059 --> 00:27:38.279
Well, in actual, apparently so.

339
00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:41.880
Like, just, just, just, just, just, a stormtroopers.

340
00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:43.380
I've seen it before.

341
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:44.220
Totally.

342
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:45.720
That's kind of nice.

343
00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.940
You know, one of the things I really love about Stephen.

344
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:58.559
He has such a love for the show, and he's such a fan, and, you know, he has his own take on it, and he works everything in without denigrating anything that Russell's done. you know?

345
00:27:58.619 --> 00:27:59.160
Yeah.

346
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:07.680
And, you know, that's one of the joys of his writing is that he actually builds everybody up and he doesn't take swipes and or he does things in a lovely way.

347
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:13.380
And I think it's often overlooked at how clever and how thoughtful he actually is in many ways.

348
00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:24.059
I just think it's so clever taking what Russell's done and not negating it or saying it's wrong or trying to rewrite it or just throw it out and say, well, that didn't happen.

349
00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:29.160
But integrating it into his canon and just bringing everything together.

350
00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:42.539
Yeah, I mean, we've had all of the previous doctors in the previous episode to one degree or another, we've just seen them in action or in Collins case walking behind someone in a corridor.

351
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.900
But at least he does, at least he does get in the bubble, you actually do see him at the concert.

352
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

353
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:54.599
And here they are all back. they're all working together to solve the same thing.

354
00:28:54.660 --> 00:28:58.440
And that's that's the clever thing.

355
00:28:58.500 --> 00:28:59.940
And he's done this before.

356
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.319
He's pulled this before, right?

357
00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:12.720
We're in the Tower of London, the moment tells the war doctor that all of the Sonic screwdrivers are the same software, different case.

358
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:29.880
And so he scans it with his, he scans the door with his uh, Sonic screwdriver and because it's been 400 years, Matt Smith's, Sonic screwdriver can immediately um, destroy the door, not that he needs to because this.

359
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:30.779
It's not.

360
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:31.740
It's not long.

361
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:36.779
I love how it's, oh, we're so clever, says Matt Smith, and then Clara bursts.

362
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:43.319
And then the moment says same software, different face.

363
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:46.500
And of course, the same thing happens.

364
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:53.220
Matt has the idea of what to do because he's had 400 years to think about it in the meantime.

365
00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:58.079
And that's the same trick that he pulls in time crash, isn't it?

366
00:29:58.140 --> 00:29:58.920
Yeah, yeah.

367
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:02.160
Yeah, where Pete learns how to defeat the whatever the hell the thing is.

368
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:03.359
Belgium.

369
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:05.160
Yeah, by seeing.

370
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:06.059
Yeah, that's right.

371
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:07.799
By seeing the 10th doctor do it.

372
00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:12.660
And so when he's the 10th doctor, he remembers being the 5th doctor, seeing the 10th doctor to it.

373
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:19.680
So so he has pulled that before, it's not new, but it's done so tremendously well here, I think.

374
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:25.079
In terms of the doctor's decision to change his mind at the end.

375
00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:29.400
Yeah, it's an absolutely beautiful scene and Clara's inspiration of him.

376
00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:32.099
She actually originally had a much longer speech, right.

377
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:35.579
Which I'm glad they cut down, but pretty much Matt Smith says we have to do this.

378
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.880
And David Tennant says, for we are the oncoming storm.

379
00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:40.319
We are the car, Ferric Gartry.

380
00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:41.460
We are the bringers of darkness.

381
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.220
And John Hurt says, this is what I was born to do.

382
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:47.880
To which Clara responds, no, you weren't.

383
00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:49.019
No one's born to do anything.

384
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:50.519
That's just stupid.

385
00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:51.779
That's what mad people say.

386
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.779
How many children did you say?

387
00:30:54.839 --> 00:31:00.420
247000000 stuck on a planet surrounded by monsters and waiting for someone to save them?

388
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.240
For God's sake, this time there's 3 of you.

389
00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:14.519
You can stop being a bringer of darkness or a storm or a legend or a hero or any of the stupid things you tell yourself you are, just be you, just be a doctor.

390
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:19.259
And so what we get is the same effect as that.

391
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:21.000
And I'm glad they shortened it.

392
00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:26.700
Because something I've been finding reading on the script development of these is Moffat definitely overwrites at the beginning.

393
00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:30.180
He usually writes a lot of like sexy jokes in there.

394
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:37.559
As Clara wanders into the Tartars at the end before she says, by the way, the curator of this place was looking for you.

395
00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:45.660
She was meant to look at where the tennis doctor's TARDIS was and say, you know, you used to be really sexy to which Matt Smith says, which one?

396
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:47.400
Which one are you talking about?

397
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:49.380
You know.

398
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.019
But that's another great thing about Stephen Moffat.

399
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:57.420
As much as he pays tribute to what came before, he's absolutely not afraid to go, you know what, I need less here.

400
00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:58.259
Yeah.

401
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:09.299
And I need I need to just let the actors do more because that whole bit with the 3 doctors watching gala phrase the moment brings it around them is so good.

402
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:13.500
And it has so much less dialogue than was in the original script.

403
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:14.519
Yeah.

404
00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:15.720
All you needed.

405
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:16.200
Well done.

406
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:18.240
All you needed was that be a doctor.

407
00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:19.980
Do what you've always done.

408
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:21.359
Be a doctor.

409
00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:24.960
And that's the other thing that's really striking and that has to happen.

410
00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:30.779
This is the 50th anniversary celebration, so it needs to be about who it is that we're celebrating.

411
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.680
And so all that that speech to the never cruel and cowardly speech.

412
00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:36.480
This is what the doctor is.

413
00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:43.079
This is why we love him and we get to go back and fix the one time where he failed to do that.

414
00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:44.819
And I think it's fantastic.

415
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:45.839
It's magnificent.

416
00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:05.339
I mentioned the other day, when we were doing night of the doctor, that I had a theory as to why this works so well, despite it being a simple story.

417
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:13.500
And that is, especially in the 1980s, you had all these stories where someone was deliberately out to get the doctor.

418
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:16.619
And it ends up being not terribly interesting.

419
00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:19.200
And I'm kind of like, well, why isn't it terribly interesting?

420
00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:21.720
It's like, well, it's not terribly interesting because the doctor's not going to die.

421
00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:25.799
Or, you know, be massively hurt or anything like that.

422
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:27.000
You know, there might be a regeneration.

423
00:33:27.059 --> 00:33:32.220
But it's like even in Lagopolis, the doctor thinks it's about him and it's not.

424
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:41.160
This is still a story about the doctor, but it's not a story about the villain out to get the doctor, but it's about the doctor's personal growth instead.

425
00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:44.819
So it's kind of like the doctor's soul is at risk.

426
00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:55.079
And that's far more interesting than the Borad going, Oh, well, you know, doctor, you turned me into this, now I'm going to be horrible to you.

427
00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:59.819
Or Roger Delgado coming in and just mucking the doctor around.

428
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:01.380
You know, I've got no other purpose.

429
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:02.700
I'm just going to tease you this week.

430
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:15.059
And that's why I think you need to have a sort of quite simple story with the Zygon thing because in a way, that simple story is interrupting what we really want. in a very Stephen Moffatt kind of way.

431
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.719
And if you look back in Stephen Moffatt's tenure to say Amy's choice.

432
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:26.340
If that had been about the doctor, that would have been far less interesting because it's about Amy, there's actual risk involved.

433
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:32.159
And because it's about something that we have been told for the last 7 series has happened.

434
00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:37.260
You know, right back with Eccleston, he says, I watched it happen.

435
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:38.039
I made it happen.

436
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:42.599
Matt Smith says, I killed all the time, Lords, in the doctor's wife, you know.

437
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:53.940
And everything we know about Doctor Who tells us that this is inevitable, except for the Wedding of River Song, has told us, actually, this kind of thing can be changed if you're very clever.

438
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:56.099
Yeah.

439
00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:05.699
It's a little bit like the way this story rewrites the end of the previous season as well, where the doctor has a destination that's trendsalore.

440
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:11.039
He has it right up until the very end where he's saying goodbye to David Tannen and that's a bad ending.

441
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:15.539
And so what Moffatt does is he lets the doctor rewrite it.

442
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:24.300
And so now his purpose is to go hunting for Gallifrey and the idea that he's inevitably going to end up at Trezilore is gone.

443
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:32.099
And it's just a sort of super moffety thing to do, is to say, actually, we're not going to tell this story.

444
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:33.659
We're going to do something different.

445
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:35.159
And I think it's really great.

446
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:37.920
Yeah, sculler free or home the long way round.

447
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:38.519
Yeah.

448
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:44.760
It's something that will permeate through a number of series now, sort of the end of his time as showrunner.

449
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:47.820
The story being so simple.

450
00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:54.960
And about being the doctor's soul, as you said, Brendan, just touches our soul, right?

451
00:35:55.019 --> 00:35:56.519
And I just think that works so well.

452
00:35:56.579 --> 00:35:59.820
And the monsters become sort of periphery to that.

453
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:08.039
You know, he's never, Stephen's not really interested in writing Daleks, like a lot of the time, they're here, but they're just a means to an end.

454
00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:09.360
They're on the periphery.

455
00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:10.380
The Zygons.

456
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:12.719
Well, we adore them from the classic series.

457
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:29.579
If we know them, if they're new to us, this is what they are and what they do, they're there for some jokes, and they're there for that ridiculous scene where Gemma Regave has to spit out that, that, that, when she changes back for no reason at all, that I can see.

458
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.579
Do you guys like the zygons in this?

459
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.079
I do.

460
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:38.280
I think that they were the monster that was most in need of coming back.

461
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:48.059
Every one of us thought, you know, the Zygons are the best one off monster that Doctor Who has ever done and we need to see them again.

462
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.960
And, you know, Moffat during his time will bring back the ice warriors.

463
00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:53.940
He will bring back the great intelligence.

464
00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.179
He brings back all sorts of things and gets a redo of them.

465
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.039
And here I think the zygons.

466
00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:03.960
I don't think they look quite as good.

467
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:07.260
No, they're Bite T cartoon versions.

468
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:08.340
But it's the same thing.

469
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.559
I think Todd's hinting at as with the Daleks.

470
00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:14.940
You aggrandise them when you bring them back and they lose that foetal fragility.

471
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.139
The Daleks and the Zygons in their 1st stories are both very similar.

472
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:25.260
They're impounded and they have that claustrophobic sense, which we...

473
00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:29.880
It's also really a significant story because we see the doctor commit, as far as we know genocide.

474
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:31.559
We don't know how many colonies survived.

475
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.139
And Tom so gleeful, yes, blew them up on the beach.

476
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.599
And even at 12 I thought this is terrible.

477
00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:37.980
This is a terrible thing to do.

478
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:42.119
So maybe they did deserve some legacy, but they're not the same.

479
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:46.860
Well, they're not the same because like the actors who are playing themselves aren't playing the Zygons.

480
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.380
Yeah yeah That's a shame, actually, you know.

481
00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:57.960
I would have banned, you know, Paddy managed to bandage up Tom as a as a mummy and tell him, oh, you know, it's Veritas, Tom, just because she was sick of him and wanted to show up.

482
00:37:58.380 --> 00:38:01.380
I think we could have done Impyramids of Mars.

483
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.000
I think we could have done the same very easily.

484
00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:04.800
With Gemma.

485
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:06.420
I think Gemma would have been up.

486
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:07.739
No, but she's great.

487
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:09.599
But really as a zygon?

488
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:11.219
Yeah, I think she would have been fantastic.

489
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.800
I mean, she's the modern Glinda Jackson after all.

490
00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:14.400
No, she is.

491
00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:15.239
Jim, it really is.

492
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:22.500
And considering in the original terror of the Zygons, the actress playing Sister Lamont does voice her Zygon counterparts.

493
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:27.900
Whereas here and not begrudging the man, but they're all Nicholas Briggs.

494
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:29.760
And it's kind of like, you know, you know what?

495
00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:31.739
Nicholas Briggs's Daleks, absolutely.

496
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:36.420
I wish they'd bring in Alastair Lock occasionally to mix it up, but he hasn't played them even for Big Finish for a while.

497
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:43.079
But for me, I really like the Zygon design except for one factor, the new one.

498
00:38:43.139 --> 00:38:43.800
The new one.

499
00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:45.420
Not the teeth so much.

500
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:47.280
Richard's doing rabbit teeth acting.

501
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:49.739
Father pins.

502
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:51.539
No, it's the eyes.

503
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:53.219
They're very different.

504
00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:53.940
They're very different.

505
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.159
And I think what it is, is on the original.

506
00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:59.340
They have very heavy browse, which put the eyes into shadow.

507
00:38:59.340 --> 00:39:05.219
And the new heads don't have the same protrusion, so the eyes are more human.

508
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.280
Do you know, for me, it's the translucency?

509
00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:14.519
The rubber of the Zygon suits... rubber of the...

510
00:39:16.139 --> 00:39:17.400
Like it was slightly translucent.

511
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:17.880
Yes.

512
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:18.539
Yes, you're right.

513
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:19.380
Yeah, it's quite beautiful.

514
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:19.619
Yeah.

515
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:20.039
Yeah.

516
00:39:20.099 --> 00:39:26.340
So, and that fragility, because they're sort of foetal and they look sort of fragile and stuff.

517
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:31.559
Whereas here they are a little bit more kind of robust and they're a little bit more monstrous.

518
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:38.460
They also don't strut around the same way with their little thoraxes push forward. miss that.

519
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:42.360
I do like the fact that Queen Elizabeth kills off her counterpart.

520
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.719
There's feeble as people.

521
00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:50.159
Well, that's a famous quote from Queen Elizabeth I. I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman.

522
00:39:50.219 --> 00:39:53.579
I think Miranda Richardson does the same quote.

523
00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:57.239
It is a great shame I wasn't Miranda. imagine that.

524
00:39:57.300 --> 00:40:06.119
I just kept thinking there's an account by like a French ambassador or something and I'm going to get the details wrong of meeting Queen Elizabeth when she's much older.

525
00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:13.440
And of course, sugar becomes a thing during Queen Elizabeth's lifetime and her teeth are shockingly bad.

526
00:40:13.500 --> 00:40:17.159
Like they're really black and horrible by the time.

527
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:19.739
Old wooden teeth, I believe she was...

528
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:24.119
But you remember her at the end of the Shakespeare code, which is a sequel to this story.

529
00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:25.440
Yes, yes.

530
00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:27.059
Queen Elizabeth's concern.

531
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:27.900
She's not happy, is she?

532
00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:29.460
But she has terrible teeth as well.

533
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:36.840
So all of that stuff about David Tennant saying how she's got breath that would stun a horse and stuff like that.

534
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.559
All of that is kind of historically accurate eventually.

535
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:59.400
Speaking of which, Kate Stewart, um, and unit, of course, are in here with Osgood as well.

536
00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:03.960
She was previously introduced a little while ago during season seven.

537
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.760
Power of 3 and unit is back here with the Black Archive.

538
00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:11.880
I just laughed the fact that that poor man at the theatre.

539
00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:14.940
It's his 1st day every day for 10 years.

540
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.480
Yeah, look at Severance 9 years early. isn't it?

541
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:21.840
I mean, the thing is, does he go home every day and say to his husband, my 1st day went well.

542
00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:23.280
You've been saying that for 10 years.

543
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.559
What a divorce.

544
00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:37.739
But it's interesting how he works that all into the show and for those that know, Dr. from the beginning, you know, that's it's quite a big payoff.

545
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.099
I mean, it's nice to have that in there in the reference to the brigadier.

546
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:44.039
I guess if you're newer, does it really, does it really matter?

547
00:41:44.099 --> 00:41:44.820
No, it probably doesn't.

548
00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:50.219
They just a, you know, military organisation, but it's, I find that it's nice nods.

549
00:41:50.280 --> 00:42:00.780
I know a number of people on the podcast, maybe not this team, don't particularly like Gemma Redgrave's performance as Kate Stewart, but I always think that she does, I like her.

550
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:01.920
I actually really like her.

551
00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:03.239
What else is she going to do with it?

552
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:04.619
And Osgood.

553
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:08.280
A nod back to a character from which one is it?

554
00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:10.380
The demons. from the demon. right?

555
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:13.380
Who's not to say that she is a relation?

556
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:13.920
Yeah, yeah.

557
00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:15.119
Sorry, his daughter.

558
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:16.440
Hang on, for the young people here.

559
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:18.539
Which one isn't is Osgood in the demons?

560
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:23.820
Osgood's the kind of science-y one who is operating the thing that peers through the heat barrier.

561
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:24.960
Oh, God, of course it is.

562
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:26.280
Yeah, Alec Lindstead.

563
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:29.340
The Woo thing with the glasses and the white coat. of a fan.

564
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:30.179
Yeah, yeah.

565
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.360
Who is later Jellicoe in Robot?

566
00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:37.199
and Arthur Stengos Dalek in Revelation.

567
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:37.980
Oh my goodness.

568
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:38.699
Yes.

569
00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:40.139
It's interesting.

570
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:41.940
He's now got these new playthings.

571
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.260
I think Oz could make such an impact.

572
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:44.400
She's so good.

573
00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:45.539
Gosh, she's good.

574
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:47.280
That he's going to keep bringing her back.

575
00:42:47.340 --> 00:42:48.059
Yeah.

576
00:42:48.059 --> 00:42:57.960
And you look back on his time as showrunner and you see that, you know, when Stephen finds new things to play with, he lets go of his current playthings.

577
00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:12.179
And I'm sort of referring to the part of Nostergang, who I adore and think should have done more episodes, but it's sort of like, okay, they're back, spoiler alert one more time, but then Case and Osgood are back for a bit and then he finds new play things.

578
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:17.400
But she is a joy in this with her whole Tom Baker scarf.

579
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:27.780
She even does the Tom Baker thing where the Zigon is standing on the end of the scarf, which is on the floor and she yanks it and the Zigon falls over.

580
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:29.760
Like she absolutely does that.

581
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:55.619
And that incredible moment at the end, where the 2 Kate Stewarts have lost their memories, and there's that interaction where one of the Osgoods coughs and the other Osgood gives her the inhaler and they both realise which one is human and which one is Zigon, but they decide not to wreck it because they do want this negotiation to go ahead and succeed.

582
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:56.639
It's really good.

583
00:43:56.699 --> 00:43:59.880
That's really good. picked up on, right?

584
00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:07.500
Because then he, of course, cedes that for the next story in a few seasons time, but that is it's just interesting, that little moment.

585
00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:08.699
It's very...

586
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:15.659
And also I think going back to at the end of David, tenant's time in the, I want to say the dead planet.

587
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:17.400
Oh, Planet of the Dead.

588
00:44:18.179 --> 00:44:20.579
Say words, different order.

589
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.380
Planet of the dead planet.

590
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:24.719
Yeah, I know.

591
00:44:24.780 --> 00:44:32.519
You do have unit, and you've got Malcolm, who's another scientist from unit who's in love with the doctor, which is wonderful.

592
00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:40.800
And here we've got Osgold again, and I think they tried to do it with that. maybe they didn't really do it with that guy back in the power of 3 who was a bit of a nerd.

593
00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:42.239
I can't remember who she was talking to.

594
00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:43.679
Yeah, I can't remember.

595
00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:46.380
But Malcolm does get name checked twice in this episode.

596
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:53.880
So he's the one who's responsible for ensuring that the, is it the Ravens of the Tower of London, have their batteries?

597
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.219
Tell Malcolm to change the batteries.

598
00:44:56.340 --> 00:45:02.099
And then Malcolm is also the one who is supposed to analyse the stone dust at the bottom of the under gallery.

599
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:03.719
So that's definitely Malcolm.

600
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:04.559
Yeah, you know.

601
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:12.059
And again, it's this thing where Moffat loves Russell's Doctor Who and constantly references it. in a positive way.

602
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:22.679
Something I really love about Gemma Redgrave's performance is she has Nicholas Courtney's quality of underplaying certain moments.

603
00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:32.099
She's not terribly earnest all the time, but yet there are layers to the performance and she does get excited or scared or concerned.

604
00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:36.539
And, you know, at the moment of we only have to agree to live.

605
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:38.639
Well, unfortunately, we can only agree to die.

606
00:45:38.699 --> 00:45:44.400
It's like, okay, yeah, like, no, I believe you will blow up London, actually.

607
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:51.840
You know, despite the fact, you know, the whole time we've seen you've been kind of charming and walking in and going, oh, hi, Rory, nice pants, you know.

608
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.860
Interesting thing about Kate Stewart, though.

609
00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:04.139
The BBC consider her a legally distinct and original character compared to Kate Lethbridge Stewart of the spinoff media.

610
00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:07.320
So that way they don't have to pay the Hazman Lincoln estate for her.

611
00:46:08.219 --> 00:46:10.079
Oh boy.

612
00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:13.260
And we were talking about with a great intelligence a couple of weeks ago.

613
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:16.920
It's like, you know, Daleks created by Terry Nations.

614
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:18.900
So, Tarans created by Robert Holmes.

615
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:21.059
So Loren's created by Malcolm Hook.

616
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.460
Does it say the Zargans are created by?

617
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:25.079
Oh, I think it does.

618
00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:28.619
I think it says Zigon's created by Robert Banks Stewart, but it's like great intelligence.

619
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:34.619
No, we don't need to credit anyway. barely a thing There was a thing with, was it Mervyn Hasman and Henry Lincoln?

620
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:40.500
Yeah, no, there was a big kind of thing going all the way back with yetis and reusable yetis.

621
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:42.000
And do you remember?

622
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.280
That kind of falling out. a bit of drama.

623
00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:45.300
So yes, that's why.

624
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:56.280
My favourite Ingrid Oliver thing, which has nothing to do with where we are at this point in the conversation, is it's Penthesilea in the BBC radio for Earth.

625
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:57.300
What's it called again?

626
00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.320
Earth Sea.

627
00:46:58.380 --> 00:46:58.860
I can't believe.

628
00:46:58.860 --> 00:46:59.280
Earth search?

629
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:01.739
Earth search is no, that's good as well.

630
00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:02.880
I'll find you the title.

631
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:07.559
She plays a warrior, princess in a metal bra, and it's a piss take of Lord of the Rings.

632
00:47:07.619 --> 00:47:20.760
That's what Stephen Mangan as a fantasy writer, and he's Labrador who gets sucked into an alternative dimension, and the Labrador personifies as the chosen one, although he still likes sticks and sniffing button.

633
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:26.639
And there's and it's a tiny dwarf and there's a tall elf who's, you know, not quite sure where he is in the world, shall we say?

634
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:28.980
And it's really, really, really funny.

635
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:34.260
But everything in Ingrid Oliver does is completely different from everything else Ingrid Oliver does.

636
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:35.579
And she's superb.

637
00:47:35.579 --> 00:47:38.699
And I would have liked to have seen her as they do with the Zigon.

638
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:43.320
And the book that Stephen Moffat has done really plays on that so nicely.

639
00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:54.539
And she actually saves the world in the book in a different way because of the empathy that she and her doppelganger creates and that the Zygons learn about.

640
00:47:54.599 --> 00:48:00.420
They love swimming in the mind of a huge pool, even it's the TARDIS swimming pool, isn't it at the time as well?

641
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.900
swimming in the pool of her mind and how much that goes on there.

642
00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:08.400
And the Zigons actually, yeah, achieve empathy by being Ingrid Oliver.

643
00:48:08.460 --> 00:48:10.019
So she's absolute.

644
00:48:10.139 --> 00:48:13.019
I would have really liked to have seen her do as a Clara thing.

645
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:16.440
I think I might, no, I'm not going to go there. she would have made a good companion.

646
00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:17.699
I'll just say that Yeah.

647
00:48:17.699 --> 00:48:18.420
You know what?

648
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:28.860
I would be amazed if they didn't ask her at one and I get the impression with Ingrid, Oliver, that, you know, like you say, Richard, she does different thing every time, but she doesn't do it for long.

649
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:30.000
You know what I mean?

650
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:30.599
He's very busy.

651
00:48:30.659 --> 00:48:31.260
Yeah, exactly.

652
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:32.039
And quite right.

653
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:32.760
Working, darling.

654
00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:33.239
Yes, I am.

655
00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:34.079
Thanks for asking.

656
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:51.059
You know, and I 1st saw her in Watson and Oliver, which was her sketch comedy series with Lorna Watson, and there's a particular one where Ingrid Oliver has found out that the new James Bond is down to 2 names, her and Daniel Craig.

657
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:51.659
What?

658
00:48:51.659 --> 00:48:57.780
Lorna Watson's like, 0 god, that's so nerve-wracking.

659
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:59.880
This is like when David Tennant beat me out for Doctor Who.

660
00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:05.519
And then they do this whole Bond musical number with Ingrid Oliver in a tuxedo.

661
00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:06.119
It's amazing.

662
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:10.619
If we can find it on YouTube, we will link it in the show notes and I'm looking at Nathan because he has to do that.

663
00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:22.019
I would possibly go as far as saying that Osgood may be Stephen Moffat's most successful recurring guest character, recurring guest character.

664
00:49:22.019 --> 00:49:27.840
And, you know, even 2 or 3 years ago when the Lonely Assassin's video game was made.

665
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:30.599
She's the main voice in it.

666
00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:35.519
Her and Finley Robertson returning as Larry Nightingale.

667
00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:47.820
But it's it's um Osgood guiding you through the game and like she even returns for some of the found footage sequences and she's running around Wester Drumland's house and setting up probes and things.

668
00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:51.420
And I think she's got celery on her lapel of this stuff.

669
00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:53.519
Elvin Quest.

670
00:49:53.579 --> 00:49:54.659
Elvin Quest.

671
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:55.980
Alvin Quest.

672
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:56.760
Oh, I haven't found it.

673
00:49:56.820 --> 00:49:57.420
I just looking into it.

674
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:59.579
She's also in Penny Dreadfuls, she plays songs.

675
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:05.639
Have you heard that one on the radio and she plays a super spy warrior kitty thing?

676
00:50:05.699 --> 00:50:10.920
19th century and she's sort of like a, like a, as if Gemma Redgrave was playing in appeal.

677
00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:13.260
Everything she does is fantastic yet.

678
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.199
So she was offered, do you think she was offered a companion piece?

679
00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:18.900
I would be very surprised if she wasn't offered more.

680
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:19.800
Yeah.

681
00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:22.139
Yeah, she feels like one of those ones.

682
00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:24.300
We drop her in when we can get her.

683
00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:35.219
Well, is that thing that Moffatt does actually, despite not going to the lengths that Russell does to create people for the doctor to hang out with a no?

684
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:41.639
He does what Todd says, he invents little groups of people that he can bring back and rely on.

685
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:49.079
You know, as a sequel to this and in some ways a kind of rerun of its major kind of moral point.

686
00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:55.860
The Zygon inversion invasion is really quite terrific and her role in it is absolutely crucial, isn't it?

687
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:57.360
Her role in that is wonderful.

688
00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:04.619
And you want her to join the crew at the end, which is a shame that, you know, that's the last time we see her.

689
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:05.159
Yeah.

690
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:07.739
And could he have made it any better?

691
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:09.420
Could we have got Captain McGumbo?

692
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:13.199
There is a photo of her on the on the, you know, paranoia board.

693
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:14.340
Yes, yes.

694
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:15.659
I love that paranoia.

695
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:16.860
Why we have it.

696
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:22.739
I'm quite sure, but Mikey Yates and Gene Marsh are there in the photo for some reason.

697
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:26.519
And and you get like Ian and Barbara and Susan and...

698
00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:28.860
And, and, I think, and Turlo and Chameleon.

699
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:30.480
Yeah, Chameleon.

700
00:51:30.539 --> 00:51:33.360
What would we do without missa, okay?

701
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:43.800
Stephen Moffat inspecting that conspiracy board. actually turned to the visual effects department and said, Sarah Kingdom and Mike.

702
00:51:43.860 --> 00:51:46.139
Yeah, but that's how can that happen?

703
00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:51.119
And the head of the arts pump said, Steve, didn't you create a whole new doctor for this special?

704
00:51:51.179 --> 00:51:54.300
And Stephen's like, oh, people can invent stories for them?

705
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:55.019
Yes, Stephen.

706
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:19.559
I actually really like, also, at the beginning, Clara's in her new setting at Old Your School.

707
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:21.719
Isn't that sweet?

708
00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:24.659
And her character's getting rewritten.

709
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:26.880
I'm just assuming it's another Clara.

710
00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.480
It's actually how many have we had now?

711
00:52:30.539 --> 00:52:34.139
Yeah, it is a lot of them. 18 or something.

712
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.079
There's actually about 16 just in the greater London area.

713
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:54.059
I think it's incredibly confident and amazingly cinematic and it's them just saying, all right, we're pulling out all the stops and that shot of the helicopter with the TARDIS dangling from it, flying over London, like, hooray.

714
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:54.900
London's back.

715
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:57.119
You know, we're shooting in Trafalgar Square.

716
00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:58.320
It's...

717
00:52:58.320 --> 00:52:58.980
Awful weather.

718
00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:02.039
It looks so cold.

719
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:04.079
Yeah, the wind's blowing.

720
00:53:04.139 --> 00:53:04.800
It's really bad.

721
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:07.559
But it just looks incredible.

722
00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:09.059
It looks so spectacular.

723
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:13.079
It's such an event And the movie style opening credits and everything.

724
00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:15.000
It's huge, this.

725
00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:16.559
Don't they have I am Foreman as well?

726
00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:17.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

727
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:19.380
You just got to throw it away, don't you?

728
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:25.320
It's kind of like, yeah, scrapyard this way. head teacher, I Chesterton, head of governors, W.

729
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:26.099
Coburg.

730
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:26.880
Yeah.

731
00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:28.199
So good.

732
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:38.519
For that TARDIS flying sequence, Matt Smith did as much of the hanging as he was allowed to under-insurance purposes.

733
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:39.960
See, he was only a few feet off the ground.

734
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:47.699
The way he told, and also Jenna tells her, he was about 80 or 90 metres in the air. dangerous.

735
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:49.679
Like totally attached.

736
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:56.760
Yes. you know, so that like, I think there is behind the scenes footage of him going up and him actually not holding on to the handles.

737
00:53:56.820 --> 00:54:06.599
Right You know, he's he's on a harness, which they painted out and what have you, but he's like, no, no, I wanted to do as much of it as physically possible, apparently, like the stuntman was saying, that's as high as he's allowed to go.

738
00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:07.619
Stop it now.

739
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:09.179
Not holding the handles.

740
00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:09.900
Oh my goodness.

741
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:10.679
Yeah, yeah.

742
00:54:10.739 --> 00:54:11.760
But that is very mad.

743
00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:14.280
The whole beginning is so great.

744
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:24.179
And it's exactly what Russell does for, say, the runaway bride, where you get the TARDIS as a physical object doing something different from what we've seen before.

745
00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:27.780
And so having the doctor hanging from the Tartars.

746
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:37.860
I just think it's so good. it's so tremendous And their 1st interaction, like when she drives into the TARDIS, and she is as cool as anything and so is he.

747
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:43.320
And they're kind of doing a Steed, Mrs. Peel thing. ironic detachments.

748
00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:43.860
No, that.

749
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:45.599
Very, very much so.

750
00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:51.719
And I don't think Stephen Moffat's kept it a secret that he's very much an admirer of that time on the Avengers.

751
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:52.500
Yeah.

752
00:54:52.559 --> 00:55:06.360
And of course, like the Avengers film, which we've discussed, originally opened with before it was cut, Emma Peel driving up to a phone box in the middle of nowhere to answer a ringing phone to get her mission.

753
00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:10.860
And that was completely cut, but photos exist and some footage of it is in the trailer.

754
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:13.019
So visually, it is actually very similar.

755
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:16.139
And it is intended to be the same bike as the Bells of St.

756
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:16.440
John.

757
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:16.920
Right.

758
00:55:16.980 --> 00:55:18.840
The gravity bike.

759
00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:19.739
The gravity bike.

760
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:20.579
Little bites.

761
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:22.440
We always think that it went for longer, didn't it?

762
00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:25.920
Because they're just moments of great serotonin oomph.

763
00:55:25.980 --> 00:55:27.719
Which series was she in?

764
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:29.039
Serotonin.

765
00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:34.019
One of my favourite lines comes from that scene and it's the will there be cocktails line?

766
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:39.239
It's, you know, the doctor gives a little mini Florana speech to her and that's her response.

767
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:40.500
Will there be cocktails?

768
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:47.039
And then all that sort of song froid just drops and they hug one another and they're super happy to see one another.

769
00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:48.900
But it's really terrifically good.

770
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:49.679
Very, very true.

771
00:55:49.739 --> 00:56:04.019
I think the way in which Clara's written in this episode in the next. sort of, it does make you want more of these 2 together, like for another mini run of 8 episodes. you're left wanting more, which is a good thing.

772
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:04.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

773
00:56:04.739 --> 00:56:14.159
But it wouldn't have hurt to have had a few more episodes of them together in that sort of M appeal, Steve sort of relationship that would have been quite a lot of fun, I think.

774
00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:17.820
And odds on and fairness to all the writers.

775
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:21.239
It's actually a Myrna lawyer and William Powell screwball comedy.

776
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:27.300
Well, it comes from Thin Man series and no doubt before that, but Carol Lombard and Clark Gable.

777
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:28.199
We've talked about this a lot.

778
00:56:28.260 --> 00:56:42.300
Hitchcock does it perfectly in 39 steps with Madeline Carroll and Donut, Robert Donut, which is one of my favourite films of all time, but they're actually tied up at the end of the bend and she has to get her stockings off.

779
00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:43.199
And it's 1934.

780
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:45.360
Britain didn't have a haze code.

781
00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:54.960
But the same banter and the whole, we're having a lot of sexual tension here, but we're actually talking about the weather or the latest diabolical mastermind, whatever.

782
00:56:55.019 --> 00:57:01.559
And there's that lovely, as you said, the songfight of the dissonance between intention and article.

783
00:57:01.619 --> 00:57:03.480
And that's what Stephen Moffatt.

784
00:57:03.539 --> 00:57:10.739
Stephen Moffatt really understands tension in dramatic interplay and how, but give it to us, give it to us, as we're always saying to him.

785
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:12.179
I'm just going to put that over there.

786
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:17.460
So you'll think it's coming and you might see a tinge of it, but I'm actually going to throw something else entirely at you.

787
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:19.320
That's what day of the doctor is.

788
00:57:19.380 --> 00:57:22.500
It's not at all what I expected, but I enjoyed it all.

789
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:24.840
And in my head, well, it's still five-ish doctors.

790
00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:39.059
But in my head, there's a whole lot of other things that have happened, and each time we go back and watch it, it's slightly different again, because again, you notice his minutiae and marginalia on the sides of the screen, but you also get the sense of, I'm still surprised.

791
00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:41.519
Even after all this time, I'm still surprised.

792
00:57:41.579 --> 00:57:43.980
Yes, I was picking up new things all the time.

793
00:57:44.099 --> 00:57:50.159
Back to what you're saying about Clara entering the TARDIS with the motorbike.

794
00:57:50.219 --> 00:58:00.059
It gets to show off that magnificent set, but we also get to, of course, see David set and we get to see the in-between set, which with all the round things which they love.

795
00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:01.199
It's so good.

796
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:07.139
And yours to get Tom, even in the curator scene, where you've got all of the on the wall.

797
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:08.519
Patrick's bedroom, you know.

798
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:13.380
I love that something that modern who can do.

799
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:13.980
Yeah.

800
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:14.340
Yeah.

801
00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:16.079
You know, we've got the budget. can do it.

802
00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:21.719
Well, so that set still existed, didn't it, in Cardiff at the Doctor Who experience?

803
00:58:21.780 --> 00:58:22.619
Yeah, exactly.

804
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:27.659
They actually shut down the doctor experience for a day to film the scenes in David's in David's house.

805
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:28.980
Yeah, absolutely.

806
00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:35.460
And then for the John Hurt, TARDIS, the round things walls had been built for an adventure in space and time.

807
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:39.000
So they are the reproduction Billy Walls.

808
00:58:39.059 --> 00:58:40.079
Right, yeah.

809
00:58:40.139 --> 00:58:41.639
Reproduction Billy.

810
00:58:41.699 --> 00:58:43.800
The paint is still wet.

811
00:58:45.179 --> 00:58:51.179
Yeah, I love Tenant and the Smith fanboying about the round things.

812
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:51.840
Yeah.

813
00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:52.500
Yeah.

814
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:57.420
It seems that by all reports, because really there's 4 doctors in this, because Tom turns up as well.

815
00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:08.699
It sounds like Matt Smith is kind of the glue in that David Tennant said to Stephen, look, I'm going to come in, but I'm going to let Matt take the league because it's his show.

816
00:59:08.699 --> 00:59:12.960
And of course, you know we're both fans, you know what it's like in the old show when other doctors came on.

817
00:59:13.019 --> 00:59:15.119
And apparently 1st day on the Tartar set.

818
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:20.400
Just before they started shooting, Matt walked up to Dave and said, now, look, I'm going to be doing controls over here and whatnot.

819
00:59:20.460 --> 00:59:22.260
But I don't want to hog the flying duties.

820
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:27.659
If you want to do a bit of dialogue and flick a few switches as well, you're the doctor too.

821
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:30.059
You're adorable.

822
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:30.420
Yeah.

823
00:59:30.420 --> 00:59:40.860
And, you know, John Hurt, who knew nothing about Doctor Who after William Hart, all hadn't watched it, said in an interview, you know, he said, yeah, I know what it is, but I don't know what it's about.

824
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:42.659
He said, I have a career for goodness.

825
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:46.019
But he said, I have such respect for Matt and David.

826
00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:47.639
You know, they're such good actors.

827
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:50.639
And they can do all the science-y talk.

828
00:59:50.699 --> 00:59:53.460
They haven't given me much science-y talk.

829
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:58.199
I'm glad to say, but those 2 just rattle it off while being sad and happy and all this.

830
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:01.920
He's so generous, isn't he?

831
01:00:01.980 --> 01:00:05.820
You know, he bumped into Eccleston not long after this.

832
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:08.039
And he said, we've no, no, John Hurt?

833
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:08.880
No, John Hurt?

834
01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:11.760
But I'm into Eggleston, because Eccl still talks about how hurt he was.

835
01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:12.840
Not no pun.

836
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:13.860
I'm sorry, intended.

837
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.679
But, you know, and he's riffed with Russell.

838
01:00:16.739 --> 01:00:17.519
It goes very deep.

839
01:00:17.579 --> 01:00:22.559
But he came and patted him on the back and said, oh, Chris, we're comingled now.

840
01:00:22.619 --> 01:00:24.420
We mingled together.

841
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:26.880
We are a mingled entity.

842
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.980
And that's sweet.

843
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:33.960
But that is interesting that he just regenerates. there on the spot.

844
01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:36.179
Like, it's done, so I'm going to regenerate.

845
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:37.980
Maybe you buy it more than me.

846
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:46.980
I think that what is happening is that Moffatt is filling in the gaps and so we get to see those 2 doctors who we haven't seen regenerate, we get to see them.

847
01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:49.800
Oh, yes, because in the night of the doctor, we've got that as well.

848
01:00:49.860 --> 01:00:59.400
And I think possibly narratively you could hand wave it as, you know, he was the doctor who had to find the time war, the time war is over now so he can go away.

849
01:00:59.579 --> 01:01:01.800
It is just convenient to fill in the gap.

850
01:01:01.860 --> 01:01:08.760
And interestingly enough, you know, people have gone, why didn't they go further with the visual?

851
01:01:08.820 --> 01:01:11.159
And there's some fan versions where they do go further?

852
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:13.440
But Stephen Moffett was asked about that a few years later?

853
01:01:13.500 --> 01:01:21.960
And he said, given that Chris said he didn't want to appear in it, he said, I can do it as a hint, but I felt going fully into Chris's face would be disrespectful.

854
01:01:22.019 --> 01:01:24.840
And the interviewer said, so did you ask Chris about that?

855
01:01:24.900 --> 01:01:25.739
He said, no, no, no.

856
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:29.579
I feel asking him would have been pressuring him to allow use of his likeness.

857
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:32.280
Chris has said he has a lot of respect for Stephen Moffin.

858
01:01:32.340 --> 01:01:32.760
Yeah, totally.

859
01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:40.800
Well, I mean, Stephen Moffatt wrote that incredible two-parter for him to be in, so he has acted a Stephen Moffatt script.

860
01:01:40.860 --> 01:01:46.860
I think also that it's telling that he's the only doctor who's TARDIS we go into.

861
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:55.920
So we see all of the doctors on the screens in the Galafray war room, but we do actually see Chris saying the thing from inside the Tartars.

862
01:01:55.980 --> 01:01:56.820
Yeah, totally.

863
01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:04.739
I'm nicking off and you can marry whoever you like, you loose, bloody children, you cleaned that up.

864
01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:08.699
But then we also get 13 doctors.

865
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:10.679
We also get that little snippet of Capella.

866
01:02:10.739 --> 01:02:11.880
What did we think of that?

867
01:02:11.940 --> 01:02:12.360
Do you remember?

868
01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:13.320
Do you remember your reaction?

869
01:02:13.380 --> 01:02:14.340
Did you gasp?

870
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:16.440
I can't remember.

871
01:02:16.500 --> 01:02:19.139
I guess, but I grabbed Brendan.

872
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:21.000
Yes, exactly, he did.

873
01:02:21.539 --> 01:02:23.699
Grab your Brendan's gender.

874
01:02:23.699 --> 01:02:25.380
After 9 years, Are you okay?

875
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:27.360
The bruising's gone down.

876
01:02:27.420 --> 01:02:34.199
Yeah, and the swelling...

877
01:02:35.340 --> 01:02:36.000
I think I did.

878
01:02:36.059 --> 01:02:40.739
I think, yeah, because then they would have had to get him in to film that little bit.

879
01:02:40.860 --> 01:02:41.639
Yeah.

880
01:02:41.639 --> 01:02:45.239
And he wasn't yet filming and was he not yet filming?

881
01:02:45.300 --> 01:02:48.119
No, and we only see his eyebrows partly because that works.

882
01:02:48.179 --> 01:02:50.280
That's actually all he is though, isn't he?

883
01:02:50.340 --> 01:02:54.360
Also because they haven't worked out what his costume's going to be at the time.

884
01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:57.059
Wasn't he still filming Musketeers or?

885
01:02:57.059 --> 01:02:58.079
Yes, yeah.

886
01:02:58.139 --> 01:02:58.860
Mouseketeers?

887
01:02:58.920 --> 01:02:59.219
was that?

888
01:02:59.219 --> 01:03:00.599
No, he was.

889
01:03:00.659 --> 01:03:01.500
It was Musketeers.

890
01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:06.539
So he filmed this on the same day he filmed his side of the regeneration.

891
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:08.760
Oh, okay. for time of the doctor.

892
01:03:08.820 --> 01:03:13.199
And if you look at time of the doctor, even though he peers at Jenna, they're never in the same shot.

893
01:03:13.260 --> 01:03:14.340
Oh okay.

894
01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:17.940
So they did that to fit in with his schedule.

895
01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:23.760
So it was this weird thing of Matt actually had to match him when he came to film it.

896
01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:26.039
So Jim wasn't there.

897
01:03:26.099 --> 01:03:28.019
He wasn't there with Jenna in...

898
01:03:28.019 --> 01:03:28.860
Oh, that's a shame.

899
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:29.880
I think not.

900
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:38.639
I'm thinking back and obviously I haven't rewatched Time of the Doctor for the podcast yet, but I think Capaldi and Jenner don't actually appear in the same shot, but I could be wrong.

901
01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.039
And if I am wrong, it means that yes, they brought Jenna in.

902
01:03:41.099 --> 01:03:41.820
Right, right.

903
01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:44.039
But yeah, so that's that's when they film that.

904
01:03:44.099 --> 01:03:46.079
And yet that was a moment in the cinema.

905
01:03:46.139 --> 01:03:47.880
No, unintended.

906
01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:50.460
No, I remember there was a fricking roar from that.

907
01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:54.960
Because if you didn't know that Matt was going, you'd be going, what the hell is this?

908
01:03:55.019 --> 01:03:56.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

909
01:03:56.699 --> 01:03:57.900
It's it's the same thing.

910
01:03:57.960 --> 01:04:00.420
You know, the paratext is important.

911
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:04.199
The trailers, all of that stuff can be assumed knowledge.

912
01:04:04.260 --> 01:04:06.300
And we'd had that special, hadn't we?

913
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:07.079
Yeah, in August.

914
01:04:07.139 --> 01:04:07.860
Yeah.

915
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:08.219
Yeah.

916
01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:12.599
So Tom Baker's involvement was treated like a big secret.

917
01:04:12.659 --> 01:04:17.579
He was picked up at 130 in the morning in a Hessian sack in a Hessian sack.

918
01:04:18.059 --> 01:04:26.400
Driven driven to Cardiff to arrive at 430 in the morning, taken out of the Hessian sack and put in makeup and a costume and what have you.

919
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:33.059
And the way Tom tells it is apparently, you know, everyone was very attentive and got me in costume and got me cups of tea and things, but he's like, no one talked to me.

920
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:42.539
There was no conversation and I was just, they were getting it ready and I was just standing on the side of feeling like this sad, lonely old man who's just been wheeled out for the coronation or whatever.

921
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:51.420
And then he said, then this tall man with a with a chin and a nose and big and big hair came out of the shadows and Tom, how wonderful to see you.

922
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:52.739
Thank you so much for coming.

923
01:04:52.800 --> 01:05:01.559
And as Tom puts it, my gloom was lifted by the arrival of Matt Smith, who welcomed me so enthusiastically that I began to think life was worthwhile.

924
01:05:01.619 --> 01:05:03.420
That's so lovely.

925
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.179
Speech, holy crap, it's so perfect.

926
01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:06.840
Yeah.

927
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:09.900
Was it just him and those 2 on set?

928
01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:11.280
It was just those 2 on set.

929
01:05:11.340 --> 01:05:13.800
Like that's why Jenna walks off.

930
01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:15.900
It's like, let's have as few people on set as possible.

931
01:05:16.019 --> 01:05:17.760
The witch has to attend her well.

932
01:05:17.820 --> 01:05:19.920
Sorry, I just love that joke.

933
01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:21.000
So good.

934
01:05:21.059 --> 01:05:22.380
Well, it's from Hyde.

935
01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:24.300
That's one of the names of the ghost in high.

936
01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:25.619
That's how forgettable hide is.

937
01:05:25.739 --> 01:05:29.099
So lovely. just makes me love this even more.

938
01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:42.420
We're at the end of this, seeing all the doctors standing there is such a wonderful iconic moment.

939
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:48.480
We've had lines from each of them their final lines, like, over tenant.

940
01:05:48.539 --> 01:05:50.460
I want to go, something that...

941
01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:51.239
He always says that.

942
01:05:51.420 --> 01:05:52.199
That is correct.

943
01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:53.519
All 2 times.

944
01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:54.840
Like, you can't wait.

945
01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:55.559
I don't like it.

946
01:05:55.619 --> 01:05:58.679
Yeah, yeah, like Stephen just knows what these lines.

947
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:03.659
I can't wait for Jody to say, I'm letting the door bang me ass. on the way out.

948
01:06:03.719 --> 01:06:05.280
Wait, okay.

949
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:10.800
But just that just that whole iconic shot of them all standing there.

950
01:06:10.860 --> 01:06:11.940
Beautiful. beautiful.

951
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:28.860
In a way, it doesn't quite end up paying off, I think, because it does promise something different, and it only vaguely promises it because he does say home the long way round, but the circumstances under which he goes home are very different from what these anticipates, I think.

952
01:06:28.980 --> 01:06:30.599
Yeah, definitely, definitely.

953
01:06:30.659 --> 01:06:45.900
It's a little bit like the end of the 5 doctors where, you know, the doctor goes on the run again. you know, and so we've got a sort of new start to the show after that special and now we get it again with the 50th, you know, he's got a new lease of life.

954
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:49.559
He's not heading inevitably towards Transilore.

955
01:06:49.619 --> 01:06:51.360
He's got some other mission.

956
01:06:51.420 --> 01:06:53.099
Yeah, well, that's the thing.

957
01:06:53.159 --> 01:07:00.840
It gives the fact that they were able to change the past tells him, you know, then the 10th doctor says to him, we need a new destination.

958
01:07:00.900 --> 01:07:02.699
And it's like it's something we can change.

959
01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:09.719
You know, I know, Nathan, for instance, that you and I disagree on Lake Silencio, whether the doctor originally died or not.

960
01:07:09.780 --> 01:07:14.280
You say, yes, he did and then the past changes, whereas I'm like, it's always been this way.

961
01:07:14.340 --> 01:07:24.239
But this is a situation where I'm like, no, no, no, he did definitely blow up Gallifrey the 1st time. and then needed to grow and heal in order to realise there was a better way.

962
01:07:24.300 --> 01:07:29.099
But because John Hurt isn't going to remember it, It still leads to the same growth.

963
01:07:29.219 --> 01:07:31.260
That is such a clever bookending.

964
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:32.880
I hadn't thought that the 2 related before.

965
01:07:32.940 --> 01:07:33.300
Yes.

966
01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:34.679
Todd, what were you thinking?

967
01:07:34.739 --> 01:07:39.300
Oh no, I just love the fact that John Hare can't retain things because the time streams are out of sync.

968
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:43.440
It's something that we always say when doctors meet each other and now it's been verbalised.

969
01:07:43.500 --> 01:07:51.960
So that helps me cross the T's and dot the I. Although I quite like Matt Smith's other theory, which is that David Tennant's just not paying attention.

970
01:07:54.119 --> 01:08:05.519
Look, in the end, this is, I just think, joyous and Stephen does an extraordinary job and it's near perfect, which is why I give it a 9 out of 10.

971
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.359
Well, Delicious, that's all we have time for.

972
01:08:30.420 --> 01:08:30.840
For now.

973
01:08:30.899 --> 01:08:38.100
We'll be back, basically, immediately, with another episode of Flight through Entirety, in which we discuss the day of the doctor.

974
01:08:38.340 --> 01:08:57.659
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FT Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

975
01:08:58.140 --> 01:09:04.859
Until next time, may you fail doing the right thing, as opposed to succeeding in doing the wrong one.

976
01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:07.680
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

977
01:09:07.739 --> 01:09:08.460
Good night.

978
01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:09.359
See you soon.

979
01:09:09.420 --> 01:09:13.380
Well, I won't be speaking to it. of you ever again after what you've just said, but yes.

980
01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:27.600
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd, but it'll be Nathan Bottomley, Brandon, Jones, and Richard Stone.

981
01:09:27.659 --> 01:09:29.819
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb.

982
01:09:29.939 --> 01:09:36.779
This episode, the glue that holds everything together, was recorded on the 24th of July 2022 and released on the 23rd of November.

983
01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:57.239
So, you've now heard what the original flight through Entirety Cast have to say about the day of the doctor, but stay tuned to your podcatcher of choice. where you'll find a 2nd episode with our new series cast discussing the same story.

984
01:09:57.300 --> 01:09:58.560
I'll see you over there.

985
01:10:04.619 --> 01:10:07.560
So August 2013, they announced it was Peter Capaldi.

986
01:10:07.619 --> 01:10:08.279
Yeah.

987
01:10:08.340 --> 01:10:13.020
Because when they were filming this, Matt was still under talks to possibly do series 8.

988
01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:13.560
Right.

989
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:29.699
And I actually wonder, um, and, you know, where I'm flashing forward, but we have mentioned foreshadowing Danny Pink that, um, there's also a teacher in there who sort of floppy haired and has a bow-time one.

990
01:10:29.760 --> 01:10:36.000
Well, the guy who runs in to tell Clara that her doctor called is floppy haired and a bit Matt Smith-ish.

991
01:10:36.060 --> 01:10:42.539
So I wonder if Moffatt was already thinking ahead of, hey, if I can get this guy back, they obviously went down a different path.

992
01:10:43.739 --> 01:10:49.619
Yeah, and I do, I do, knowing what I know now, I did, I did wonder watching that scene.

993
01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:53.760
It's like, he's a bit Matt Smithy and a bit breakfast, a bit breathless.

994
01:10:54.060 --> 01:10:55.979
Also for breakfast.

995
01:10:58.859 --> 01:11:00.359
All right.

996
01:11:00.420 --> 01:11:01.439
I think we need an out.

997
01:11:01.619 --> 01:11:05.279
Um, look, I don't know.

998
01:11:05.340 --> 01:11:07.140
We're at the end. of this.

999
01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:11.100
Seeing all the doctors standing there is such a wonderful iconic moment.