WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:54:06

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that checks its lagomorphs carefully

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before monologuing at them.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm John Hurt under a dust cover for this one.

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Well, we all know what happened 59 years ago today, but 9 years

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ago today, we were all experiencing a day that will be forever

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written on our little fanboy hearts.

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So let's see what we remember about what happened on the day of

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the doctor.

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Do you remember the first time you saw this?

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Where were you when you saw this for the first time, Todd?

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Was I in the UK?

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I think you were, yes.

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Yes, because I'd been to the 50th.

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I'd been to the 50th anniversary event and then we were back at, I

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think, I think it was Peter's house actually.

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Yeah, we were watching it as a group and I just remember

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struggling with the cat because I'm allergic and so I was battling

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battling sore eyes and and a constricted throat, but I was still

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you know, loving what I was saying is what I could say.

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That's where I was.

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Yeah, okay.

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Do you remember Brendan?

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Yeah, because I had to work, like it was on in cinemas here before

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it was on telly, and I did have tickets booked for like a 930

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screening, but then I was doing a job on The Voice, and it was an

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audition tour.

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So, you know, I couldn't exactly take a day off because that was

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what it was scheduled for.

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So I had to give up my cinema ticket, switch my phone off so no

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one texted me about what was in the episode and then rush home

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afterwards and watch it on iview.

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Did you remain unspoiled?

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I mean, there's one or 2 things that you don't want to be spoiled

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not for you.

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I'm finding it hard to remember.

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I think I knew about Tom.

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Okay.

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But I think I knew about Tom before.

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You know, I think he had been somehow seen or something like

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that.

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But I could be wrong.

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And then I went to the cinema the next day to see it.

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I moved my ticket or I forfeited or gave it to someone or ate it

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or something.

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Do you have any memories from 9 years ago at all?

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Just a number, isn't it?

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as we say at our age.

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I thought we all saw it at the cinema together.

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So my memory is that I went to James's place and we had bubbly.

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We had some bubbly Shiraz at sort of 6 o'clock in the morning or

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something and then watched it on iPlayer.

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It's Ribena for Adels.

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You know what?

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That's why I switched my phone off because you guys texted me

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saying we're watching it now.

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I love you and I trust you, but I don't trust you.

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But then James and I went to the cinema later that day and saw it

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in 3D. And it still does work without 3D, but I do like that it, it

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was just James and me, I think.

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Yeah, it was in 3D. Was it in 3D?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think Richard, you and I went the next day.

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Because I think I saw it with you in the city.

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Definitely remember cinema. cinema.

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So in a blur.

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So the... wept.

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We wept.

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I did not know Tom was coming.

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No, I needed to keep my poodra very much on a high shelf.

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I didn't know either.

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Like, it's just that lump in the throat.

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Well, it's when you hear him, the brilliance of hearing him

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before...

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Britain, Britain.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Actually, I definitely saw it with Richard because I've been to

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several Doctor Who cinema screenings with Richard and Richard has

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this thing where if something surprising happens like Tom Baker

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turning up suddenly my arm is in a vice.

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Yes, I bring one with me.

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And for those of you who haven't seen Richard and I together in

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person, I'm 5 foot four, Richard 6 foot three. 6 foot two, I beg

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your pardon.

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Let's not ever extend it.

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And he's a very solid gentleman.

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He actually dressed as a lumberjack today and looking the part.

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Didn't bring my own lunch, but.

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But yes, no, it, yes, I do remember squealing audibly.

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I think there was some of that Yes, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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God, it was good, wasn't it?

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Yeah, I've only read the Target novel.

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I have to say, for this audio commentlair.

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Yeah, I didn't watch it. because that's what we used to do as

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young people.

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We read the book.

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So I'm coming to this as a 10 year old, yeah.

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I mentioned the book actually in yesterday's episode provided I

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don't decide to cut that beard.

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And it is amazingly good.

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I read it on Nathan's recommendation originally.

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So you just got to buy this.

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Oh, I can't be.

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Oh, and I didn't.

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Ooh.

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Ooh.

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And it takes a bit longer.

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And it does some lovely nods to Douglas Adams and to, well, really

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the whole history of Doctor Who writers.

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There's lots of little ticks to Terence and Malcolm in his, some

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of his wordplay, which just made my spine go funny in a good way.

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I was talking to Simon and Peter about this. and about the 3 big

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celebrations. which are, of course, an adventure in space and time

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the 5-ish doctors reboot and this.

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And which one do you like the most, which one do you have the most

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love for, and why?

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And we were talking about like we're classic series fans, we just

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absolutely adore an adventure in time and space.

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Obviously, the 5 doctors reboot has so many classic people in

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there.

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And then I sort of made the generic comment, oh, you know, it's

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the classic stuff that really gets to me.

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But it's more than that.

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It's actually the interaction between classic and Yuhu.

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That the stuff that gets to me.

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It's when David Bradley looks at Matt Smith in that, and I sort of

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break down in tears, and it's when you hear Tom's voice and that

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whole sequence and interaction with Matt Smith in this, that

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you're well up and you get tears.

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Five Shock's reboot is a bit different.

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Like, I didn't sort of get tears, but it's all that interaction

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how it's so interlinked with new who.

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And that's the stuff that, not to say, there's other stuff that I

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don't love in this, I didn't interact.

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I always love having doctors interact with each other, but it's

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all the pictures in the background of the classic companions and

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all that, that as a classic fan.

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It's just magical.

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And I don't want to say that if you're a new who fan, then that's

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going to mean anything less because if you go back and watch it

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all and have watched it all, then you're a fan of Doctor Who.

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But it's just something that has struck me.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think it's El Sandefer, who is the one who said that this

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is the show that heals the breach of the wilderness years by

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bringing classic Doctor Who back and letting the new series kind

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of encompass it.

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And I think maybe it's not super obvious, but I think maybe the

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best representative of the classic series is in some ways John

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Hurt.

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You know, he's older, he's posh, he's got the posh accent, David

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Tenner, he's fun of it.

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Yeah, he's had a career before, and he doesn't really like the

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younger members of the cast.

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There's a lot of historical truth in this.

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It's the thing where he looks at the 2 doctors from the new series

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and can't believe how kind of stupid they are. you know, like how

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they speak like children, how they wave their.

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I mean, I can imagine Simon criticising the new series doctors for

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waving their sonic screwdriver around like a water pistol and here

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is John Hurt doing that.

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So he's a classic series doctor that we've never kind of heard

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of.

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It's really out of the obelisk, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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So he's invited onto the program to make fun of how stupid it is.

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And one of the things that he does is that he notices what those

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doctors do despite their weird, unimpressive appearance and that

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makes him make the decision.

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But I think that that's a place and maybe an overlooked place

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where the classic series interacts in this episode.

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It's really interesting because I'd heard rumours at the time that

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you know, some people felt this whole war doctor concept was a

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misbegotten sort of idea and, you know, couldn't get Eccleston.

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BBC didn't want McGann, who I think both could have stepped into

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that.

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Is that why I did not know that.

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That's what we think.

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And I think that McGann could have done this.

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I think he would have been prudent.

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And I personally don't think it would have mattered who had done

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that role.

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Yeah, Stephen said he'd finished writing it from again. yeah.

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I think at this point, the audiences with Doctor Who, everything

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is built up to this moment, right?

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So if it had been McGann, I don't think you would have got any

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less viewers.

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No, if it had been John Hurt.

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Like, I just don't think there's any difference.

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I mean, I mentioned when we were doing time with the doctor for me

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when John Hurt appeared.

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It was like, oh, well, great.

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But it didn't really mean anything to me.

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I was not blown away by that, that.

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I mean, it's interesting now coming into this, like he was built

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as the doctor at the end of that, but we've had the night of the

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doctor where he's actually build as the war doctor.

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So as a fan, you know that's where this is, where this is coming

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from.

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I think you're very right about how the performance is very

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classic series.

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And I think it is, I think it's wonderful in it.

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And I think it works so well and it's really interesting.

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When I went into it, I was not determined not to like it like I

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normally am.

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But I was deeply concerned about the concept, Brendan. about this

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war doctor and how it wouldn't work.

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But Stephen Moffat is a very clever man.

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Yes, he's up against it with all of the constraints and having to

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tie everything together and come up with this and it works.

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And you know how I like all my teas to be crossed and eyes to be

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dotted.

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And if they're not, then I'm really not happy.

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I'm very, very happy.

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It just he's just splendid.

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Yeah, it just, look, it just works.

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And the sort of tying back of John Hurts, the classic series mode

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of doctor, when Eccleston declined to do it and they couldn't get

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Paul McGann, Stephen Moffatt had to come up with this idea and his

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starting point was the 5 doctors, but not necessarily in the way

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you might expect.

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Richard Herndle.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Android.

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Well, the thing is, he was considering for a while not doing a

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multidoctor story because he's like, you know, that's a bit of a

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misnomer.

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Not every anniversary has a multi-doctor story kind of thing.

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But yes, then he thought about Richard Herndle.

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And he thought about, and we discussed this on the podcast before

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how Richard Herndle's 1st doctor isn't actually all that much like

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William Hartnell's 1st doctor.

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It's almost like he's this entirely new incarnation with

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adventures you haven't seen.

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Oh my god, I've just saved the 50th anniversary, said Stephen

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Moffat.

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So he went to the BBC with this idea and said, but this will only

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work if we get a big name actor that bypasses people going, but

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they were never the doctor to go to.

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I don't care that they were the never the doctor because they're

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John Hurt.

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And that it actually melds another idea he had in a fit of madness

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because after the end of series 7, Jenna Coleman was the only

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person contracted.

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00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:32.940
Yeah.

250
00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:37.200
So Matt Smith's contract ended, his initial contract ended with

251
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:39.419
name of the doctor, and he hadn't said, I won't do more, but he

252
00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:40.379
was getting film offers.

253
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.460
He actually leaves this and immediately flies to America to do a

254
00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:46.799
film, and that's when he shaves his head and has to wear the wig

255
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:47.759
for time of the doctor.

256
00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:51.539
Or the Adric inheritance as a team in this group.

257
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:52.200
Yeah.

258
00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:55.919
Like, Tenant came off one thing onto this and immediately onto

259
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:56.399
another thing.

260
00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:57.600
So it was hard to get Tenant.

261
00:12:57.659 --> 00:13:02.519
So Stephen Moffatt did initially have this idea that the 50th

262
00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:05.879
anniversary would be Clara meeting a bunch of different

263
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:08.700
celebrities playing the doctor and basically the doctor would

264
00:13:08.700 --> 00:13:12.539
change every few scenes and he's like, Joanna Lumley, Miriam Mogli

265
00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:13.860
Serene McCallen, da da.

266
00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:15.720
The sofa of reasonable.

267
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:16.379
Yes, exactly.

268
00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:16.799
Exactly.

269
00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:19.559
But, you know, that was Stephen Moffat going, I don't have a

270
00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:19.860
doctor.

271
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.639
I have all the doctors and he's kind of said in an interview since

272
00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:24.779
that would have been awful.

273
00:13:25.259 --> 00:13:27.120
Well, we've seen it.

274
00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:28.019
There wasn't that bad.

275
00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:36.179
It's amazing how John Hertz doctor comes out of a period of

276
00:13:36.179 --> 00:13:39.419
adversity because they were they were close to getting Eccleston

277
00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:44.639
and then he's just like, no, I'm just not ready to go back and do

278
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:45.059
that again.

279
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:48.419
Yeah, especially seeing as we've since found out how painful it

280
00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:51.539
was for him to leave and how he felt he was blacklisted afterwards

281
00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:52.320
and what have you.

282
00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:55.980
It's amazing. you know, there's multiple sides, of course.

283
00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.980
But it's amazing he even considered it, in my opinion.

284
00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:04.379
But yeah, we get John Hurt, who's who's lovely and sweet, but you

285
00:14:04.379 --> 00:14:06.779
totally believe will blow up half the universe.

286
00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:11.340
Yeah, I mean, he is quite lovely almost immediately.

287
00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:15.659
So when he turns up, when those when those men turn up to look for

288
00:14:15.659 --> 00:14:21.240
the doctor who has bewitched Queen Elizabeth I and they say

289
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.399
something about, you know, we want the doctor's head or something

290
00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:28.200
like that, and John Hirche smiles broadly and says, well, this has

291
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:29.940
all the makings of your lucky day.

292
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:36.179
Yes, it's wonderful because he has been so sombre and so solemn up

293
00:14:36.179 --> 00:14:36.960
until that point.

294
00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:39.720
That's the point where for me he became the doctor, I think.

295
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:44.759
I always think it's such a shame that he only calls himself the

296
00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:48.659
doctor once at the end. and he doesn't get to be really called the

297
00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:50.940
doctor very much at all.

298
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.740
But you know, that's just an observation.

299
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:57.480
I think it's also quite funny that the 2 companions, and I put

300
00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:01.379
that in quotes here, Clara and Rose, or Bad Wolf, or the moment.

301
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:05.940
The only 2 actresses that thus far in you who have actually

302
00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:09.600
witnessed a generation or are going to witness a generation from

303
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:11.039
one doctor to the next.

304
00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:14.519
But to be fair, we have also witnessed that with Billy's teeth.

305
00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:19.620
The moment was, could have just been a box on a something else. was

306
00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:20.460
an entirely different head.

307
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:24.120
I actually really like her as the moment.

308
00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:26.460
Is this the moment?

309
00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:28.440
She is the best thing in the special.

310
00:15:28.500 --> 00:15:33.299
She can act the box off and out of any of the others.

311
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.820
No, and she actually, those scenes with her.

312
00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:36.840
You can actually see him.

313
00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:38.279
Just my opinion.

314
00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:41.820
You can actually see him rise a little bit in standard too.

315
00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:45.059
He's not just doing grumpy Grandpa Panto.

316
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:46.139
You can actually see.

317
00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:47.159
She's got the spark.

318
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:49.620
She's the Claudia Winkleman of Doctor Who.

319
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.960
She's the strictly come dancing of Doctor.

320
00:15:52.019 --> 00:15:53.159
If you know Claudius.

321
00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:56.820
Anyway, Claudia Muinklemanon strictly has a very manic, yet

322
00:15:56.820 --> 00:16:00.899
controlled manner that is charming and yet completely random.

323
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:07.080
And Billy has a manic quality in her eye in this that, I don't

324
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:11.159
know whether it's years with Chris Evans, but I can believe

325
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.480
everything she says.

326
00:16:12.539 --> 00:16:14.940
She has a psychotic joy about her.

327
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.460
She's extraordinary and hurt rises to that.

328
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:18.539
Yeah.

329
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.299
And she also has real proper feelings.

330
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:26.279
Like, we're we're told by the general that the weapon is so

331
00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:30.480
powerful. its operating system developed a conscience and she is

332
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:34.620
absolutely engineering and permitting this to happen, giving the

333
00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:39.419
doctor the chance to do a redo and get the decision right.

334
00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:44.399
And she, when the doctor goes back, when the war doctor goes back

335
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:49.379
with a renewed determination to blow everyone up, it seems like it

336
00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:53.220
hasn't worked, she's really heartbroken and she really sells it.

337
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:55.799
And, you know, there's no character to hang that on.

338
00:16:55.860 --> 00:17:00.539
It's not like Rose, who is an identifiable sort of TV character.

339
00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.019
She's playing the moment, which is what the hell is that?

340
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.420
And she absolutely kills it.

341
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:11.400
She's funny and silly and manic, as Richard said, but also sombre

342
00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:16.859
and really, really desperate to ensure that the weapon isn't used

343
00:17:16.859 --> 00:17:18.839
the way that it was the 1st time through.

344
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:22.619
Is this special actually as good as it is because we get the

345
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:26.220
legacy of Russell and Andy Pryce and Phil's?

346
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.480
I guess Julie, but just their understanding of what good casting

347
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:30.779
is.

348
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:32.880
Because just to throw it in there.

349
00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:33.839
I mean, Matt is lovely.

350
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:35.400
Of course, he's lovely and everyone else is lovely.

351
00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:40.019
And maybe it's nostalgia, but the real punches on the screen are

352
00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:42.720
everyone that's from Russell's 1st few years.

353
00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:47.940
I think too, that this engages with Russell's Doctor Who really

354
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.380
very thorough going.

355
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:50.039
Maybe we were just as well.

356
00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:53.160
Yeah, maybe we were just missing it in the same way that audiences

357
00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.220
in 73 must have been missing Pat.

358
00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:57.180
Yeah, yeah.

359
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:58.799
Yeah, I think that's I think that's right.

360
00:17:58.859 --> 00:18:02.400
He does a very good version of David Tennant.

361
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.440
He's written for David Tennant before, obviously.

362
00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:10.680
He picks up Queen Elizabeth Gag from End of Time, part one. just

363
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:12.420
love the way he keeps insulting her all the time.

364
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.640
She's great too.

365
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:16.380
She is Joanna Page, yeah.

366
00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:17.759
She's lovely in this.

367
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.500
Stacy from Gavin and Stacy.

368
00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:20.640
Oh God, and she's so good.

369
00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.579
I think Stephen Moffatt is actually the best rider for tenants

370
00:18:23.579 --> 00:18:23.819
doctor.

371
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:24.839
Yeah, yeah.

372
00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:25.440
Well, yeah.

373
00:18:25.500 --> 00:18:28.680
Like the stuff that he wrote in Russell's era was superb

374
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:28.980
everyone.

375
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:29.759
He got him.

376
00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:31.259
He also got Eccleston.

377
00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:33.299
I would have loved to have seen him write for Eccleston.

378
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.859
Look, there are storyboards of the soldier, give me your gun

379
00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:39.599
blasting away no more in the wall.

380
00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:42.839
There are storyboards of Eccleston in that moment.

381
00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:47.519
So that's how far along they got in pre-production, thinking we

382
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:48.240
might get him.

383
00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:52.079
And, you know, Stephen Moffatt sort of has his post

384
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.880
rationalization of, you know, the good thing about bringing in

385
00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.720
John Hurt is that if your favourite doctor is Paul McGann or

386
00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:00.779
Christopher Eccleston, you don't have to square them being your

387
00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:03.420
favourite doctor with them being a genocidal warrior, you know

388
00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:05.759
because now you've got this other one we can project onto.

389
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:06.720
Yeah, you know.

390
00:19:06.779 --> 00:19:10.319
And when we have talked about the doctor doing questionable things

391
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.859
in the past and immediately springing to mind is the twin dilemma

392
00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:17.099
one of the things we talked about back then was how uncomfortable

393
00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:19.740
that made us because this is our hero.

394
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.279
So the war doctor gives us that out.

395
00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:28.980
And John Hurt then subsequently did the War Doctor series with Big

396
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:29.460
Finish.

397
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:34.440
And there was always that tension with the character of doing

398
00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.680
quote unquote the wrong thing for the right reasons.

399
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.579
And of course, unfortunately, John Hurt is no longer with us.

400
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.720
But that was a really nice perfect series of 12 plays and no

401
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.599
disrespect intended to the newer ones they're doing with Jonathan

402
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.900
Carly, who does an amazing version of the character as well.

403
00:19:52.019 --> 00:19:56.339
And then this as sort of his finale because this does end up being

404
00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:57.599
the War Doctor's finale.

405
00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:03.119
But it's amazing how well the character works just by himself.

406
00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:06.059
You know, when we come across the 10th doctor, the 10th doctor is

407
00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:08.940
in the midst of his own adventure somewhere between the waters of

408
00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:10.319
Mars and the end of time.

409
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:14.579
You know, because he's ended the waters of Mars going, I'm really

410
00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:15.059
sad.

411
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:20.339
And so I'm going to go off and find out Queen Elizabeth's Zigon.

412
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.359
Yeah.

413
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.940
In fact, it is a little bit of a cheat.

414
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.599
It is a little bit of a coincidence that Tennant is at one end of

415
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.960
the Zygon invasion and Matt is at the other end.

416
00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:35.460
So they both turned up at the same time in the same invasion.

417
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:38.640
And so we have kind of 2 stories, don't we?

418
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:42.059
We have the Zygon invasion story with them hiding in the paintings

419
00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:42.960
and bursting out.

420
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:47.279
And then we have the moment interrupting that story in order to

421
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.759
persuade the war doctor not to push the button.

422
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:56.579
And both of those stories are quite simple, which I think really

423
00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:01.859
works, because it does give us what we want, which is time hanging

424
00:21:01.859 --> 00:21:03.599
out with those characters, I think.

425
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:20.460
It's gonna go back to what Richard was saying about, like, all the

426
00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:24.960
Russell characters and that, and them shining perhaps more.

427
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:27.720
I don't necessarily agree with that point of view.

428
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:31.440
I actually think it's one of these things where like in the 3

429
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.279
doctors, like John Pertuis is very competent, but as you were

430
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:38.759
saying, it's like suddenly having Pat and William coming down in

431
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:42.420
his bubble, like that gives you, like, you sort of connect with

432
00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:42.599
that.

433
00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:44.759
Yeah, that's the rasmataz.

434
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:46.859
So having these people back, you're sort of looking at that

435
00:21:46.859 --> 00:21:47.519
sparkle.

436
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:51.599
I think Billy is extraordinary and all the cutting with her there

437
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.960
not there and the lines that hark back to things with tenet and

438
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.900
kissing and all that. you know, it's all just icing on the cake.

439
00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.420
But I actually think that Matt is extraordinarily good.

440
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.099
He's the glue that holds everything together.

441
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:06.059
Well, perhaps it's actually Jenna, who's the glue that holds

442
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:09.180
everything together because she is interacting with all 3 doctors

443
00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:10.500
at various points.

444
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.460
And the moment she begins to cry or tears get in her eyes at the

445
00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:15.960
end, it always gets to me.

446
00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:17.579
She really sells it.

447
00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:20.819
I don't know other people say that she's cold or whatever. she's

448
00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:23.519
the witch in the well or whatever she happens to be.

449
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.000
But I actually think she's absolutely perfect in this.

450
00:22:27.059 --> 00:22:31.200
Again, I think she's an extraordinary actress and Clara is just

451
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:31.859
the right thing.

452
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.519
We were talking about, in our season 7 retrospective.

453
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:37.740
We had questions about whether Clara's time should have been

454
00:22:37.740 --> 00:22:37.980
done.

455
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:38.819
Well, no.

456
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah, she's magnificent enemies.

457
00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:42.660
And she's the one who saves the day.

458
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:44.099
I mean, the moment fails.

459
00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:51.779
She takes the doctor forward to see how Matt and David actually

460
00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:55.680
manage to save the world by using their experience of having

461
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:59.819
destroyed Galifray as a kind of a warning or a moral lesson.

462
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:03.660
And so when the war doctor goes back, he's going to push the

463
00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:09.480
button, because he sees that their regret has spurred them on to

464
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:10.259
save people.

465
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.759
And that's absolutely the wrong message, that's not the message he

466
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:15.480
should have taken.

467
00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:20.759
And it's Clara. is the one who intervenes and says that you just

468
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:21.839
can't do this.

469
00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:26.940
You can't be killing 2.800000000 children.

470
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:33.480
And because she's us, she's the audience, you know, and she's

471
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:34.920
Moffat in a way too, I think.

472
00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:39.000
I don't think Moffatt likes the idea that the doctor killed

473
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.859
everyone on Galifre.

474
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.019
And so he fixes it so that it didn't happen.

475
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.019
It's a very clever way he does it.

476
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.460
Like, he always has.

477
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.299
He introduces stuff. during an episode that you don't necessarily

478
00:23:51.299 --> 00:23:54.539
see how it's going to link to the ending, like the whole, the

479
00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:56.819
picture in the painting and I think all that's extraordinary

480
00:23:56.819 --> 00:23:58.079
having that moment.

481
00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:02.400
But also I think the other thing is his whole take on the war, like

482
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:03.900
it's very interesting.

483
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.039
It's much more, this is a battle for the 2nd Arcadia, like the 2nd

484
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:08.880
city of Galifre.

485
00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:13.440
It's all very much we're seeing gala frames and children and just

486
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.579
the Daleks and that.

487
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:20.279
Whereas previously, Russell had talked about in the final episodes

488
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:24.240
of tenant, what were all those, the hordes of whatever, you know

489
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:28.440
you know, has-beens or whatever, the could have been king and the

490
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:29.279
army of his never was.

491
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:31.259
A nightmare children.

492
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:35.519
So things that in my head are concepts that I can't really get my

493
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:36.059
head around.

494
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:42.299
Whereas here it's a much more, the war is much grittier and

495
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:42.720
realer.

496
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:46.980
Like it's just more grounded as opposed to something out in space

497
00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:51.000
where I just imagine sort of ghouls and things flying through the

498
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.740
air and just not just shooting lasers, which appears to be.

499
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:56.640
Yeah.

500
00:24:56.700 --> 00:25:00.599
So Russell actually describes the war in more detail in his

501
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.680
novelisation of Rose, and he has like replica earths and gala

502
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:09.839
phrase being recreated out of different times and hurled as

503
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:10.559
missiles.

504
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:14.700
And, you know, like it's an absolutely bizarre and unfilmable

505
00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:17.940
conception of the war, and that works very well.

506
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.880
But once you've decided to depict it.

507
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:21.900
What do you do?

508
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:24.299
it becomes just gun.

509
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:28.079
Like the time war becomes incredibly gun.

510
00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:31.079
And that's why the doctor doesn't fit into it.

511
00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:34.500
You know, that's why the doctor doesn't belong there because it's

512
00:25:34.500 --> 00:25:35.579
just people with guns.

513
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:38.880
I think also we're meant to believe it's something of a war of

514
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:43.319
attrition because in the sort of secret vault.

515
00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:46.319
They say, we've used all the weapons, except for the moment.

516
00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:49.559
You know, we've used all the fancy weapons that we can't depict on

517
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:50.759
screen conveniently.

518
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.700
So now we're down to lasers.

519
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.319
Nemesis statue.

520
00:25:55.380 --> 00:25:56.759
Yeah, yeah, statue.

521
00:25:56.819 --> 00:26:00.059
Like, I just have her flag around Galifra.

522
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:02.099
That would have been so funny.

523
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.059
The decorative milk crate, that's all we've got.

524
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:07.920
Just have her fly up to the Daleks.

525
00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:10.200
I am beautiful You are not.

526
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:14.700
But it's the one thing that I do have a slight problem with is

527
00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:17.099
that what is depicted is not quite what was in my head.

528
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:18.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

529
00:26:18.779 --> 00:26:19.859
Yeah, and it's his takeoff.

530
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:22.859
The best thing about this is the five-ish doctors, and I've got to

531
00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:25.319
say listening to you or speaking, I'm having to run through my

532
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:29.279
head going, was that in the special or was that five-ish because

533
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:30.420
to me it's the same?

534
00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:35.460
You know, Stephen may not have those 3 doctors or 4 doctors in the

535
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:38.460
special, but they couldn't have done what they did without his

536
00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:43.200
assistance and permission and love for the show and action

537
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:43.680
figures.

538
00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:49.500
Yeah, I mean, he must he must have shared with Peter. what the

539
00:26:49.500 --> 00:26:56.039
script was because Peter inserts those 3 doctors into the scene in

540
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.339
the undergallery because they're, they're hiding under the sheets

541
00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:01.920
that the cycle are hiding under.

542
00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:05.880
I think that what I've heard is Pete sort of said to Moffatt, is

543
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:08.579
there a scene where we could be hiding in the background?

544
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:09.960
You don't have to tell me what it is.

545
00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:15.420
And so, 1st of all, they're like, well, we'll put you in 3 dalek

546
00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:18.059
casings, you know, 3 paradigm daleks who were never seen in the

547
00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:18.359
special.

548
00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:22.140
And then it's like, oh, well, actually, we've got these statues

549
00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:24.119
and you can hide as statues.

550
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:29.039
And I do understand there are some shots where it is.

551
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.720
It is them.

552
00:27:30.779 --> 00:27:33.660
Yeah, in like in the background of one or 2 of the Ingrid Oliver

553
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:34.140
shots.

554
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:34.559
Apparently.

555
00:27:34.619 --> 00:27:36.000
It is those three.

556
00:27:36.059 --> 00:27:38.279
Well, in actual, apparently so.

557
00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:41.880
Like, just, just, just, just, just, a stormtroopers.

558
00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:43.380
I've seen it before.

559
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:44.220
Totally.

560
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:45.720
That's kind of nice.

561
00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.940
You know, one of the things I really love about Stephen.

562
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.000
He has such a love for the show, and he's such a fan, and, you

563
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.579
know, he has his own take on it, and he works everything in

564
00:27:53.579 --> 00:27:58.559
without denigrating anything that Russell's done. you know?

565
00:27:58.619 --> 00:27:59.160
Yeah.

566
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:02.279
And, you know, that's one of the joys of his writing is that he

567
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:06.240
actually builds everybody up and he doesn't take swipes and or he

568
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:07.680
does things in a lovely way.

569
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:11.940
And I think it's often overlooked at how clever and how thoughtful

570
00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:13.380
he actually is in many ways.

571
00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:16.980
I just think it's so clever taking what Russell's done and not

572
00:28:16.980 --> 00:28:21.839
negating it or saying it's wrong or trying to rewrite it or just

573
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:24.059
throw it out and say, well, that didn't happen.

574
00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:28.859
But integrating it into his canon and just bringing everything

575
00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:29.160
together.

576
00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:32.400
Yeah, I mean, we've had all of the previous doctors in the

577
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:38.099
previous episode to one degree or another, we've just seen them in

578
00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:42.539
action or in Collins case walking behind someone in a corridor.

579
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:47.579
But at least he does, at least he does get in the bubble, you

580
00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:48.900
actually do see him at the concert.

581
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

582
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:53.880
And here they are all back. they're all working together to solve

583
00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:54.599
the same thing.

584
00:28:54.660 --> 00:28:58.440
And that's that's the clever thing.

585
00:28:58.500 --> 00:28:59.940
And he's done this before.

586
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.319
He's pulled this before, right?

587
00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:08.940
We're in the Tower of London, the moment tells the war doctor that

588
00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:12.119
all of the Sonic screwdrivers are the same software, different

589
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:12.720
case.

590
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:19.740
And so he scans it with his, he scans the door with his uh, Sonic

591
00:29:19.740 --> 00:29:24.240
screwdriver and because it's been 400 years, Matt Smith's, Sonic

592
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:28.079
screwdriver can immediately um, destroy the door, not that he

593
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:29.880
needs to because this.

594
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:30.779
It's not.

595
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:31.740
It's not long.

596
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:35.400
I love how it's, oh, we're so clever, says Matt Smith, and then

597
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:36.779
Clara bursts.

598
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:43.319
And then the moment says same software, different face.

599
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:46.500
And of course, the same thing happens.

600
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:51.420
Matt has the idea of what to do because he's had 400 years to

601
00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:53.220
think about it in the meantime.

602
00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:58.079
And that's the same trick that he pulls in time crash, isn't it?

603
00:29:58.140 --> 00:29:58.920
Yeah, yeah.

604
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:01.859
Yeah, where Pete learns how to defeat the whatever the hell the

605
00:30:01.859 --> 00:30:02.160
thing is.

606
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:03.359
Belgium.

607
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:05.160
Yeah, by seeing.

608
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:06.059
Yeah, that's right.

609
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:07.799
By seeing the 10th doctor do it.

610
00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:10.500
And so when he's the 10th doctor, he remembers being the 5th

611
00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:12.660
doctor, seeing the 10th doctor to it.

612
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:17.519
So so he has pulled that before, it's not new, but it's done so

613
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:19.680
tremendously well here, I think.

614
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:25.079
In terms of the doctor's decision to change his mind at the end.

615
00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:28.980
Yeah, it's an absolutely beautiful scene and Clara's inspiration

616
00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:29.400
of him.

617
00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:32.099
She actually originally had a much longer speech, right.

618
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.920
Which I'm glad they cut down, but pretty much Matt Smith says we

619
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:35.579
have to do this.

620
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.880
And David Tennant says, for we are the oncoming storm.

621
00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:40.319
We are the car, Ferric Gartry.

622
00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:41.460
We are the bringers of darkness.

623
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.220
And John Hurt says, this is what I was born to do.

624
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:47.880
To which Clara responds, no, you weren't.

625
00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:49.019
No one's born to do anything.

626
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:50.519
That's just stupid.

627
00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:51.779
That's what mad people say.

628
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.779
How many children did you say?

629
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:59.400
247000000 stuck on a planet surrounded by monsters and waiting for

630
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:00.420
someone to save them?

631
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.240
For God's sake, this time there's 3 of you.

632
00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:07.440
You can stop being a bringer of darkness or a storm or a legend or

633
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:12.059
a hero or any of the stupid things you tell yourself you are, just

634
00:31:12.059 --> 00:31:14.519
be you, just be a doctor.

635
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:19.259
And so what we get is the same effect as that.

636
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:21.000
And I'm glad they shortened it.

637
00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:24.000
Because something I've been finding reading on the script

638
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:26.460
development of these is Moffat definitely overwrites at the

639
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:26.700
beginning.

640
00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:30.180
He usually writes a lot of like sexy jokes in there.

641
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:35.579
As Clara wanders into the Tartars at the end before she says, by

642
00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:37.559
the way, the curator of this place was looking for you.

643
00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:41.039
She was meant to look at where the tennis doctor's TARDIS was and

644
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.000
say, you know, you used to be really sexy to which Matt Smith says

645
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:45.660
which one?

646
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:47.400
Which one are you talking about?

647
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:49.380
You know.

648
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.019
But that's another great thing about Stephen Moffat.

649
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:54.960
As much as he pays tribute to what came before, he's absolutely

650
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:57.420
not afraid to go, you know what, I need less here.

651
00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:58.259
Yeah.

652
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:02.099
And I need I need to just let the actors do more because that

653
00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:07.740
whole bit with the 3 doctors watching gala phrase the moment

654
00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:09.299
brings it around them is so good.

655
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:13.500
And it has so much less dialogue than was in the original script.

656
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:14.519
Yeah.

657
00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:15.720
All you needed.

658
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:16.200
Well done.

659
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:18.240
All you needed was that be a doctor.

660
00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:19.980
Do what you've always done.

661
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:21.359
Be a doctor.

662
00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:24.660
And that's the other thing that's really striking and that has to

663
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:24.960
happen.

664
00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:28.140
This is the 50th anniversary celebration, so it needs to be about

665
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:30.779
who it is that we're celebrating.

666
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.019
And so all that that speech to the never cruel and cowardly

667
00:32:34.019 --> 00:32:34.680
speech.

668
00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:36.480
This is what the doctor is.

669
00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:41.519
This is why we love him and we get to go back and fix the one time

670
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:43.079
where he failed to do that.

671
00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:44.819
And I think it's fantastic.

672
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:45.839
It's magnificent.

673
00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:00.660
I mentioned the other day, when we were doing night of the doctor

674
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:04.440
that I had a theory as to why this works so well, despite it being

675
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:05.339
a simple story.

676
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:09.420
And that is, especially in the 1980s, you had all these stories

677
00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:13.500
where someone was deliberately out to get the doctor.

678
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:16.619
And it ends up being not terribly interesting.

679
00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:19.200
And I'm kind of like, well, why isn't it terribly interesting?

680
00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:20.819
It's like, well, it's not terribly interesting because the

681
00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:21.720
doctor's not going to die.

682
00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:25.799
Or, you know, be massively hurt or anything like that.

683
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:27.000
You know, there might be a regeneration.

684
00:33:27.059 --> 00:33:30.359
But it's like even in Lagopolis, the doctor thinks it's about him

685
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:32.220
and it's not.

686
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.660
This is still a story about the doctor, but it's not a story about

687
00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:39.660
the villain out to get the doctor, but it's about the doctor's

688
00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:41.160
personal growth instead.

689
00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:44.819
So it's kind of like the doctor's soul is at risk.

690
00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:51.359
And that's far more interesting than the Borad going, Oh, well, you

691
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:54.299
know, doctor, you turned me into this, now I'm going to be

692
00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:55.079
horrible to you.

693
00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:59.819
Or Roger Delgado coming in and just mucking the doctor around.

694
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:01.380
You know, I've got no other purpose.

695
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:02.700
I'm just going to tease you this week.

696
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:06.779
And that's why I think you need to have a sort of quite simple

697
00:34:06.779 --> 00:34:10.920
story with the Zygon thing because in a way, that simple story is

698
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:14.699
interrupting what we really want. in a very Stephen Moffatt kind

699
00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:15.059
of way.

700
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.360
And if you look back in Stephen Moffatt's tenure to say Amy's

701
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:18.719
choice.

702
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:23.039
If that had been about the doctor, that would have been far less

703
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:26.340
interesting because it's about Amy, there's actual risk involved.

704
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:30.059
And because it's about something that we have been told for the

705
00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:32.159
last 7 series has happened.

706
00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:36.900
You know, right back with Eccleston, he says, I watched it

707
00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:37.260
happen.

708
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:38.039
I made it happen.

709
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:41.880
Matt Smith says, I killed all the time, Lords, in the doctor's

710
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:42.599
wife, you know.

711
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.139
And everything we know about Doctor Who tells us that this is

712
00:34:46.139 --> 00:34:51.179
inevitable, except for the Wedding of River Song, has told us

713
00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:53.639
actually, this kind of thing can be changed if you're very

714
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:53.940
clever.

715
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:56.099
Yeah.

716
00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:01.079
It's a little bit like the way this story rewrites the end of the

717
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:04.920
previous season as well, where the doctor has a destination that's

718
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:05.699
trendsalore.

719
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.280
He has it right up until the very end where he's saying goodbye to

720
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.039
David Tannen and that's a bad ending.

721
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:15.539
And so what Moffatt does is he lets the doctor rewrite it.

722
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:20.340
And so now his purpose is to go hunting for Gallifrey and the idea

723
00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:24.300
that he's inevitably going to end up at Trezilore is gone.

724
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:30.360
And it's just a sort of super moffety thing to do, is to say

725
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:32.099
actually, we're not going to tell this story.

726
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:33.659
We're going to do something different.

727
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:35.159
And I think it's really great.

728
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:37.920
Yeah, sculler free or home the long way round.

729
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:38.519
Yeah.

730
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:41.460
It's something that will permeate through a number of series now

731
00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:44.760
sort of the end of his time as showrunner.

732
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:47.820
The story being so simple.

733
00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:51.900
And about being the doctor's soul, as you said, Brendan, just

734
00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:54.960
touches our soul, right?

735
00:35:55.019 --> 00:35:56.519
And I just think that works so well.

736
00:35:56.579 --> 00:35:59.820
And the monsters become sort of periphery to that.

737
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:02.760
You know, he's never, Stephen's not really interested in writing

738
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.380
Daleks, like a lot of the time, they're here, but they're just a

739
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:08.039
means to an end.

740
00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:09.360
They're on the periphery.

741
00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:10.380
The Zygons.

742
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:12.719
Well, we adore them from the classic series.

743
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:15.420
If we know them, if they're new to us, this is what they are and

744
00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:18.420
what they do, they're there for some jokes, and they're there for

745
00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:23.579
that ridiculous scene where Gemma Regave has to spit out that, that

746
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:29.579
that, when she changes back for no reason at all, that I can see.

747
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.579
Do you guys like the zygons in this?

748
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.079
I do.

749
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:37.920
I think that they were the monster that was most in need of coming

750
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:38.280
back.

751
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:42.719
Every one of us thought, you know, the Zygons are the best one off

752
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:46.860
monster that Doctor Who has ever done and we need to see them

753
00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:48.059
again.

754
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.119
And, you know, Moffat during his time will bring back the ice

755
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:51.960
warriors.

756
00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:53.940
He will bring back the great intelligence.

757
00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.179
He brings back all sorts of things and gets a redo of them.

758
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.039
And here I think the zygons.

759
00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:03.960
I don't think they look quite as good.

760
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:07.260
No, they're Bite T cartoon versions.

761
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:08.340
But it's the same thing.

762
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.559
I think Todd's hinting at as with the Daleks.

763
00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:13.380
You aggrandise them when you bring them back and they lose that

764
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:14.940
foetal fragility.

765
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.719
The Daleks and the Zygons in their 1st stories are both very

766
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:19.139
similar.

767
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.699
They're impounded and they have that claustrophobic sense, which

768
00:37:23.699 --> 00:37:25.260
we...

769
00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:27.780
It's also really a significant story because we see the doctor

770
00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:29.880
commit, as far as we know genocide.

771
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:31.559
We don't know how many colonies survived.

772
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.139
And Tom so gleeful, yes, blew them up on the beach.

773
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.599
And even at 12 I thought this is terrible.

774
00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:37.980
This is a terrible thing to do.

775
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:42.119
So maybe they did deserve some legacy, but they're not the same.

776
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:45.000
Well, they're not the same because like the actors who are playing

777
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.860
themselves aren't playing the Zygons.

778
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.380
Yeah yeah That's a shame, actually, you know.

779
00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:52.920
I would have banned, you know, Paddy managed to bandage up Tom as

780
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:55.980
a as a mummy and tell him, oh, you know, it's Veritas, Tom, just

781
00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:57.960
because she was sick of him and wanted to show up.

782
00:37:58.380 --> 00:38:01.380
I think we could have done Impyramids of Mars.

783
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.000
I think we could have done the same very easily.

784
00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:04.800
With Gemma.

785
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:06.420
I think Gemma would have been up.

786
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:07.739
No, but she's great.

787
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:09.599
But really as a zygon?

788
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:11.219
Yeah, I think she would have been fantastic.

789
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.800
I mean, she's the modern Glinda Jackson after all.

790
00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:14.400
No, she is.

791
00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:15.239
Jim, it really is.

792
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:18.840
And considering in the original terror of the Zygons, the actress

793
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:22.500
playing Sister Lamont does voice her Zygon counterparts.

794
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:27.000
Whereas here and not begrudging the man, but they're all Nicholas

795
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:27.900
Briggs.

796
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:29.760
And it's kind of like, you know, you know what?

797
00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:31.739
Nicholas Briggs's Daleks, absolutely.

798
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.199
I wish they'd bring in Alastair Lock occasionally to mix it up, but

799
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:36.420
he hasn't played them even for Big Finish for a while.

800
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:42.659
But for me, I really like the Zygon design except for one factor

801
00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:43.079
the new one.

802
00:38:43.139 --> 00:38:43.800
The new one.

803
00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:45.420
Not the teeth so much.

804
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:47.280
Richard's doing rabbit teeth acting.

805
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:49.739
Father pins.

806
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:51.539
No, it's the eyes.

807
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:53.219
They're very different.

808
00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:53.940
They're very different.

809
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.159
And I think what it is, is on the original.

810
00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:59.340
They have very heavy browse, which put the eyes into shadow.

811
00:38:59.340 --> 00:39:04.739
And the new heads don't have the same protrusion, so the eyes are

812
00:39:04.739 --> 00:39:05.219
more human.

813
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.280
Do you know, for me, it's the translucency?

814
00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:14.519
The rubber of the Zygon suits... rubber of the...

815
00:39:16.139 --> 00:39:17.400
Like it was slightly translucent.

816
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:17.880
Yes.

817
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:18.539
Yes, you're right.

818
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:19.380
Yeah, it's quite beautiful.

819
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:19.619
Yeah.

820
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:20.039
Yeah.

821
00:39:20.099 --> 00:39:23.099
So, and that fragility, because they're sort of foetal and they

822
00:39:23.099 --> 00:39:26.340
look sort of fragile and stuff.

823
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:30.000
Whereas here they are a little bit more kind of robust and they're

824
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.559
a little bit more monstrous.

825
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:35.460
They also don't strut around the same way with their little

826
00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.460
thoraxes push forward. miss that.

827
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:41.340
I do like the fact that Queen Elizabeth kills off her

828
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:42.360
counterpart.

829
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.719
There's feeble as people.

830
00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:48.840
Well, that's a famous quote from Queen Elizabeth I. I may have the

831
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:50.159
body of a weak and feeble woman.

832
00:39:50.219 --> 00:39:53.579
I think Miranda Richardson does the same quote.

833
00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:57.239
It is a great shame I wasn't Miranda. imagine that.

834
00:39:57.300 --> 00:40:00.539
I just kept thinking there's an account by like a French

835
00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:03.960
ambassador or something and I'm going to get the details wrong of

836
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.119
meeting Queen Elizabeth when she's much older.

837
00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:10.440
And of course, sugar becomes a thing during Queen Elizabeth's

838
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.440
lifetime and her teeth are shockingly bad.

839
00:40:13.500 --> 00:40:17.159
Like they're really black and horrible by the time.

840
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:19.739
Old wooden teeth, I believe she was...

841
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:22.739
But you remember her at the end of the Shakespeare code, which is

842
00:40:22.739 --> 00:40:24.119
a sequel to this story.

843
00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:25.440
Yes, yes.

844
00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:27.059
Queen Elizabeth's concern.

845
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:27.900
She's not happy, is she?

846
00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:29.460
But she has terrible teeth as well.

847
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.679
So all of that stuff about David Tennant saying how she's got

848
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:36.840
breath that would stun a horse and stuff like that.

849
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.559
All of that is kind of historically accurate eventually.

850
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:58.380
Speaking of which, Kate Stewart, um, and unit, of course, are in

851
00:40:58.380 --> 00:40:59.400
here with Osgood as well.

852
00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:03.539
She was previously introduced a little while ago during season

853
00:41:03.539 --> 00:41:03.960
seven.

854
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.760
Power of 3 and unit is back here with the Black Archive.

855
00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:11.880
I just laughed the fact that that poor man at the theatre.

856
00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:14.940
It's his 1st day every day for 10 years.

857
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.480
Yeah, look at Severance 9 years early. isn't it?

858
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:20.760
I mean, the thing is, does he go home every day and say to his

859
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:21.840
husband, my 1st day went well.

860
00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:23.280
You've been saying that for 10 years.

861
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.559
What a divorce.

862
00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:32.039
But it's interesting how he works that all into the show and for

863
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:36.960
those that know, Dr. from the beginning, you know, that's it's

864
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:37.739
quite a big payoff.

865
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:40.440
I mean, it's nice to have that in there in the reference to the

866
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:41.099
brigadier.

867
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:44.039
I guess if you're newer, does it really, does it really matter?

868
00:41:44.099 --> 00:41:44.820
No, it probably doesn't.

869
00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:48.360
They just a, you know, military organisation, but it's, I find

870
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.219
that it's nice nods.

871
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:55.260
I know a number of people on the podcast, maybe not this team

872
00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:58.260
don't particularly like Gemma Redgrave's performance as Kate

873
00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:00.780
Stewart, but I always think that she does, I like her.

874
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:01.920
I actually really like her.

875
00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:03.239
What else is she going to do with it?

876
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:04.619
And Osgood.

877
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:08.280
A nod back to a character from which one is it?

878
00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:10.380
The demons. from the demon. right?

879
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:13.380
Who's not to say that she is a relation?

880
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:13.920
Yeah, yeah.

881
00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:15.119
Sorry, his daughter.

882
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:16.440
Hang on, for the young people here.

883
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:18.539
Which one isn't is Osgood in the demons?

884
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:22.139
Osgood's the kind of science-y one who is operating the thing that

885
00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:23.820
peers through the heat barrier.

886
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:24.960
Oh, God, of course it is.

887
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:26.280
Yeah, Alec Lindstead.

888
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:29.340
The Woo thing with the glasses and the white coat. of a fan.

889
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:30.179
Yeah, yeah.

890
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.360
Who is later Jellicoe in Robot?

891
00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:37.199
and Arthur Stengos Dalek in Revelation.

892
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:37.980
Oh my goodness.

893
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:38.699
Yes.

894
00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:40.139
It's interesting.

895
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:41.940
He's now got these new playthings.

896
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.260
I think Oz could make such an impact.

897
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:44.400
She's so good.

898
00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:45.539
Gosh, she's good.

899
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:47.280
That he's going to keep bringing her back.

900
00:42:47.340 --> 00:42:48.059
Yeah.

901
00:42:48.059 --> 00:42:52.260
And you look back on his time as showrunner and you see that, you

902
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:56.159
know, when Stephen finds new things to play with, he lets go of

903
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:57.960
his current playthings.

904
00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:01.500
And I'm sort of referring to the part of Nostergang, who I adore

905
00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:04.739
and think should have done more episodes, but it's sort of like

906
00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:09.000
okay, they're back, spoiler alert one more time, but then Case and

907
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:12.179
Osgood are back for a bit and then he finds new play things.

908
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:17.400
But she is a joy in this with her whole Tom Baker scarf.

909
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:23.400
She even does the Tom Baker thing where the Zigon is standing on

910
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:26.699
the end of the scarf, which is on the floor and she yanks it and

911
00:43:26.699 --> 00:43:27.780
the Zigon falls over.

912
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:29.760
Like she absolutely does that.

913
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:34.860
And that incredible moment at the end, where the 2 Kate Stewarts

914
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:39.059
have lost their memories, and there's that interaction where one

915
00:43:39.059 --> 00:43:44.519
of the Osgoods coughs and the other Osgood gives her the inhaler

916
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:49.260
and they both realise which one is human and which one is Zigon

917
00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:53.579
but they decide not to wreck it because they do want this

918
00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:55.619
negotiation to go ahead and succeed.

919
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:56.639
It's really good.

920
00:43:56.699 --> 00:43:59.880
That's really good. picked up on, right?

921
00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:03.719
Because then he, of course, cedes that for the next story in a few

922
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:07.079
seasons time, but that is it's just interesting, that little

923
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:07.500
moment.

924
00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:08.699
It's very...

925
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.119
And also I think going back to at the end of David, tenant's time

926
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:15.659
in the, I want to say the dead planet.

927
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:17.400
Oh, Planet of the Dead.

928
00:44:18.179 --> 00:44:20.579
Say words, different order.

929
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.380
Planet of the dead planet.

930
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:24.719
Yeah, I know.

931
00:44:24.780 --> 00:44:28.860
You do have unit, and you've got Malcolm, who's another scientist

932
00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:32.519
from unit who's in love with the doctor, which is wonderful.

933
00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:35.099
And here we've got Osgold again, and I think they tried to do it

934
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:38.340
with that. maybe they didn't really do it with that guy back in

935
00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:40.800
the power of 3 who was a bit of a nerd.

936
00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:42.239
I can't remember who she was talking to.

937
00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:43.679
Yeah, I can't remember.

938
00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:46.380
But Malcolm does get name checked twice in this episode.

939
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:51.059
So he's the one who's responsible for ensuring that the, is it the

940
00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:53.880
Ravens of the Tower of London, have their batteries?

941
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.219
Tell Malcolm to change the batteries.

942
00:44:56.340 --> 00:44:59.579
And then Malcolm is also the one who is supposed to analyse the

943
00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:02.099
stone dust at the bottom of the under gallery.

944
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:03.719
So that's definitely Malcolm.

945
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:04.559
Yeah, you know.

946
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:08.880
And again, it's this thing where Moffat loves Russell's Doctor Who

947
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.059
and constantly references it. in a positive way.

948
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:18.179
Something I really love about Gemma Redgrave's performance is she

949
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:22.679
has Nicholas Courtney's quality of underplaying certain moments.

950
00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:28.380
She's not terribly earnest all the time, but yet there are layers

951
00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:31.619
to the performance and she does get excited or scared or

952
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:32.099
concerned.

953
00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:36.539
And, you know, at the moment of we only have to agree to live.

954
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:38.639
Well, unfortunately, we can only agree to die.

955
00:45:38.699 --> 00:45:43.679
It's like, okay, yeah, like, no, I believe you will blow up London

956
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:44.400
actually.

957
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:47.460
You know, despite the fact, you know, the whole time we've seen

958
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:51.000
you've been kind of charming and walking in and going, oh, hi, Rory

959
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:51.840
nice pants, you know.

960
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.860
Interesting thing about Kate Stewart, though.

961
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.340
The BBC consider her a legally distinct and original character

962
00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:04.139
compared to Kate Lethbridge Stewart of the spinoff media.

963
00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:07.139
So that way they don't have to pay the Hazman Lincoln estate for

964
00:46:07.139 --> 00:46:07.320
her.

965
00:46:08.219 --> 00:46:10.079
Oh boy.

966
00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:12.840
And we were talking about with a great intelligence a couple of

967
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:13.260
weeks ago.

968
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:16.920
It's like, you know, Daleks created by Terry Nations.

969
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:18.900
So, Tarans created by Robert Holmes.

970
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:21.059
So Loren's created by Malcolm Hook.

971
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.460
Does it say the Zargans are created by?

972
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:25.079
Oh, I think it does.

973
00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:27.780
I think it says Zigon's created by Robert Banks Stewart, but it's

974
00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:28.619
like great intelligence.

975
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:32.159
No, we don't need to credit anyway. barely a thing There was a

976
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:34.619
thing with, was it Mervyn Hasman and Henry Lincoln?

977
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.739
Yeah, no, there was a big kind of thing going all the way back

978
00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:40.500
with yetis and reusable yetis.

979
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:42.000
And do you remember?

980
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.280
That kind of falling out. a bit of drama.

981
00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:45.300
So yes, that's why.

982
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:49.320
My favourite Ingrid Oliver thing, which has nothing to do with

983
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:51.599
where we are at this point in the conversation, is it's

984
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:56.280
Penthesilea in the BBC radio for Earth.

985
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:57.300
What's it called again?

986
00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.320
Earth Sea.

987
00:46:58.380 --> 00:46:58.860
I can't believe.

988
00:46:58.860 --> 00:46:59.280
Earth search?

989
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:01.739
Earth search is no, that's good as well.

990
00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:02.880
I'll find you the title.

991
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:06.480
She plays a warrior, princess in a metal bra, and it's a piss take

992
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:07.559
of Lord of the Rings.

993
00:47:07.619 --> 00:47:12.840
That's what Stephen Mangan as a fantasy writer, and he's Labrador

994
00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:15.599
who gets sucked into an alternative dimension, and the Labrador

995
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:19.800
personifies as the chosen one, although he still likes sticks and

996
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:20.760
sniffing button.

997
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:24.059
And there's and it's a tiny dwarf and there's a tall elf who's, you

998
00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:26.639
know, not quite sure where he is in the world, shall we say?

999
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:28.980
And it's really, really, really funny.

1000
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:32.280
But everything in Ingrid Oliver does is completely different from

1001
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:34.260
everything else Ingrid Oliver does.

1002
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:35.579
And she's superb.

1003
00:47:35.579 --> 00:47:37.860
And I would have liked to have seen her as they do with the

1004
00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:38.699
Zigon.

1005
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:42.719
And the book that Stephen Moffat has done really plays on that so

1006
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:43.320
nicely.

1007
00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:46.019
And she actually saves the world in the book in a different way

1008
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:52.559
because of the empathy that she and her doppelganger creates and

1009
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:54.539
that the Zygons learn about.

1010
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:58.440
They love swimming in the mind of a huge pool, even it's the

1011
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:00.420
TARDIS swimming pool, isn't it at the time as well?

1012
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.900
swimming in the pool of her mind and how much that goes on there.

1013
00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:07.920
And the Zigons actually, yeah, achieve empathy by being Ingrid

1014
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:08.400
Oliver.

1015
00:48:08.460 --> 00:48:10.019
So she's absolute.

1016
00:48:10.139 --> 00:48:13.019
I would have really liked to have seen her do as a Clara thing.

1017
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:15.780
I think I might, no, I'm not going to go there. she would have

1018
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:16.440
made a good companion.

1019
00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:17.699
I'll just say that Yeah.

1020
00:48:17.699 --> 00:48:18.420
You know what?

1021
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:22.559
I would be amazed if they didn't ask her at one and I get the

1022
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:25.559
impression with Ingrid, Oliver, that, you know, like you say

1023
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:28.380
Richard, she does different thing every time, but she doesn't do

1024
00:48:28.380 --> 00:48:28.860
it for long.

1025
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:30.000
You know what I mean?

1026
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:30.599
He's very busy.

1027
00:48:30.659 --> 00:48:31.260
Yeah, exactly.

1028
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:32.039
And quite right.

1029
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:32.760
Working, darling.

1030
00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:33.239
Yes, I am.

1031
00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:34.079
Thanks for asking.

1032
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:40.019
You know, and I 1st saw her in Watson and Oliver, which was her

1033
00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:43.559
sketch comedy series with Lorna Watson, and there's a particular

1034
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:48.960
one where Ingrid Oliver has found out that the new James Bond is

1035
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.059
down to 2 names, her and Daniel Craig.

1036
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:51.659
What?

1037
00:48:51.659 --> 00:48:57.780
Lorna Watson's like, 0 god, that's so nerve-wracking.

1038
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:59.880
This is like when David Tennant beat me out for Doctor Who.

1039
00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:04.440
And then they do this whole Bond musical number with Ingrid Oliver

1040
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:05.519
in a tuxedo.

1041
00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:06.119
It's amazing.

1042
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:08.940
If we can find it on YouTube, we will link it in the show notes

1043
00:49:08.940 --> 00:49:10.619
and I'm looking at Nathan because he has to do that.

1044
00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:16.860
I would possibly go as far as saying that Osgood may be Stephen

1045
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:21.239
Moffat's most successful recurring guest character, recurring

1046
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:22.019
guest character.

1047
00:49:22.019 --> 00:49:26.820
And, you know, even 2 or 3 years ago when the Lonely Assassin's

1048
00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:27.840
video game was made.

1049
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:30.599
She's the main voice in it.

1050
00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:35.519
Her and Finley Robertson returning as Larry Nightingale.

1051
00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:41.519
But it's it's um Osgood guiding you through the game and like she

1052
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.699
even returns for some of the found footage sequences and she's

1053
00:49:44.699 --> 00:49:47.579
running around Wester Drumland's house and setting up probes and

1054
00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:47.820
things.

1055
00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:51.420
And I think she's got celery on her lapel of this stuff.

1056
00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:53.519
Elvin Quest.

1057
00:49:53.579 --> 00:49:54.659
Elvin Quest.

1058
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:55.980
Alvin Quest.

1059
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:56.760
Oh, I haven't found it.

1060
00:49:56.820 --> 00:49:57.420
I just looking into it.

1061
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:59.579
She's also in Penny Dreadfuls, she plays songs.

1062
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:03.059
Have you heard that one on the radio and she plays a super spy

1063
00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:05.639
warrior kitty thing?

1064
00:50:05.699 --> 00:50:09.599
19th century and she's sort of like a, like a, as if Gemma

1065
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:10.920
Redgrave was playing in appeal.

1066
00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:13.260
Everything she does is fantastic yet.

1067
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:15.840
So she was offered, do you think she was offered a companion

1068
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:16.199
piece?

1069
00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:18.900
I would be very surprised if she wasn't offered more.

1070
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:19.800
Yeah.

1071
00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:22.139
Yeah, she feels like one of those ones.

1072
00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:24.300
We drop her in when we can get her.

1073
00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:29.880
Well, is that thing that Moffatt does actually, despite not going

1074
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.659
to the lengths that Russell does to create people for the doctor

1075
00:50:33.659 --> 00:50:35.219
to hang out with a no?

1076
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:39.360
He does what Todd says, he invents little groups of people that he

1077
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:41.639
can bring back and rely on.

1078
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:45.900
You know, as a sequel to this and in some ways a kind of rerun of

1079
00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:49.079
its major kind of moral point.

1080
00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:54.239
The Zygon inversion invasion is really quite terrific and her role

1081
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:55.860
in it is absolutely crucial, isn't it?

1082
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:57.360
Her role in that is wonderful.

1083
00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:01.860
And you want her to join the crew at the end, which is a shame

1084
00:51:01.860 --> 00:51:04.619
that, you know, that's the last time we see her.

1085
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:05.159
Yeah.

1086
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:07.739
And could he have made it any better?

1087
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:09.420
Could we have got Captain McGumbo?

1088
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:13.199
There is a photo of her on the on the, you know, paranoia board.

1089
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:14.340
Yes, yes.

1090
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:15.659
I love that paranoia.

1091
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:16.860
Why we have it.

1092
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:21.960
I'm quite sure, but Mikey Yates and Gene Marsh are there in the

1093
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:22.739
photo for some reason.

1094
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:26.519
And and you get like Ian and Barbara and Susan and...

1095
00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:28.860
And, and, I think, and Turlo and Chameleon.

1096
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:30.480
Yeah, Chameleon.

1097
00:51:30.539 --> 00:51:33.360
What would we do without missa, okay?

1098
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:39.780
Stephen Moffat inspecting that conspiracy board. actually turned

1099
00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:43.440
to the visual effects department and said, Sarah Kingdom and

1100
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:43.800
Mike.

1101
00:51:43.860 --> 00:51:46.139
Yeah, but that's how can that happen?

1102
00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:49.619
And the head of the arts pump said, Steve, didn't you create a

1103
00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:51.119
whole new doctor for this special?

1104
00:51:51.179 --> 00:51:54.300
And Stephen's like, oh, people can invent stories for them?

1105
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:55.019
Yes, Stephen.

1106
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:17.579
I actually really like, also, at the beginning, Clara's in her new

1107
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:19.559
setting at Old Your School.

1108
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:21.719
Isn't that sweet?

1109
00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:24.659
And her character's getting rewritten.

1110
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:26.880
I'm just assuming it's another Clara.

1111
00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.480
It's actually how many have we had now?

1112
00:52:30.539 --> 00:52:34.139
Yeah, it is a lot of them. 18 or something.

1113
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.079
There's actually about 16 just in the greater London area.

1114
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:43.739
I think it's incredibly confident and amazingly cinematic and it's

1115
00:52:43.739 --> 00:52:47.519
them just saying, all right, we're pulling out all the stops and

1116
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:51.960
that shot of the helicopter with the TARDIS dangling from it

1117
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:54.059
flying over London, like, hooray.

1118
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:54.900
London's back.

1119
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:57.119
You know, we're shooting in Trafalgar Square.

1120
00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:58.320
It's...

1121
00:52:58.320 --> 00:52:58.980
Awful weather.

1122
00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:02.039
It looks so cold.

1123
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:04.079
Yeah, the wind's blowing.

1124
00:53:04.139 --> 00:53:04.800
It's really bad.

1125
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:07.559
But it just looks incredible.

1126
00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:09.059
It looks so spectacular.

1127
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:12.719
It's such an event And the movie style opening credits and

1128
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:13.079
everything.

1129
00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:15.000
It's huge, this.

1130
00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:16.559
Don't they have I am Foreman as well?

1131
00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:17.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1132
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:19.380
You just got to throw it away, don't you?

1133
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:23.280
It's kind of like, yeah, scrapyard this way. head teacher, I

1134
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:25.320
Chesterton, head of governors, W.

1135
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:26.099
Coburg.

1136
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:26.880
Yeah.

1137
00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:28.199
So good.

1138
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:34.139
For that TARDIS flying sequence, Matt Smith did as much of the

1139
00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:38.519
hanging as he was allowed to under-insurance purposes.

1140
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:39.960
See, he was only a few feet off the ground.

1141
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:45.719
The way he told, and also Jenna tells her, he was about 80 or 90

1142
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:47.699
metres in the air. dangerous.

1143
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:49.679
Like totally attached.

1144
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:53.280
Yes. you know, so that like, I think there is behind the scenes

1145
00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:56.340
footage of him going up and him actually not holding on to the

1146
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:56.760
handles.

1147
00:53:56.820 --> 00:53:59.880
Right You know, he's he's on a harness, which they painted out and

1148
00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:02.280
what have you, but he's like, no, no, I wanted to do as much of it

1149
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.280
as physically possible, apparently, like the stuntman was saying

1150
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:06.599
that's as high as he's allowed to go.

1151
00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:07.619
Stop it now.

1152
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:09.179
Not holding the handles.

1153
00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:09.900
Oh my goodness.

1154
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:10.679
Yeah, yeah.

1155
00:54:10.739 --> 00:54:11.760
But that is very mad.

1156
00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:14.280
The whole beginning is so great.

1157
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:18.179
And it's exactly what Russell does for, say, the runaway bride

1158
00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:21.360
where you get the TARDIS as a physical object doing something

1159
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:24.179
different from what we've seen before.

1160
00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:27.780
And so having the doctor hanging from the Tartars.

1161
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:32.519
I just think it's so good. it's so tremendous And their 1st

1162
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:36.000
interaction, like when she drives into the TARDIS, and she is as

1163
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:37.860
cool as anything and so is he.

1164
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:42.599
And they're kind of doing a Steed, Mrs. Peel thing. ironic

1165
00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:43.320
detachments.

1166
00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:43.860
No, that.

1167
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:45.599
Very, very much so.

1168
00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:48.719
And I don't think Stephen Moffat's kept it a secret that he's very

1169
00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:51.719
much an admirer of that time on the Avengers.

1170
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:52.500
Yeah.

1171
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:55.500
And of course, like the Avengers film, which we've discussed

1172
00:54:55.500 --> 00:55:00.599
originally opened with before it was cut, Emma Peel driving up to

1173
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:05.579
a phone box in the middle of nowhere to answer a ringing phone to

1174
00:55:05.579 --> 00:55:06.360
get her mission.

1175
00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:09.960
And that was completely cut, but photos exist and some footage of

1176
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:10.860
it is in the trailer.

1177
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:13.019
So visually, it is actually very similar.

1178
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:16.139
And it is intended to be the same bike as the Bells of St.

1179
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:16.440
John.

1180
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:16.920
Right.

1181
00:55:16.980 --> 00:55:18.840
The gravity bike.

1182
00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:19.739
The gravity bike.

1183
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:20.579
Little bites.

1184
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:22.440
We always think that it went for longer, didn't it?

1185
00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:25.920
Because they're just moments of great serotonin oomph.

1186
00:55:25.980 --> 00:55:27.719
Which series was she in?

1187
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:29.039
Serotonin.

1188
00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:32.699
One of my favourite lines comes from that scene and it's the will

1189
00:55:32.699 --> 00:55:34.019
there be cocktails line?

1190
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:37.739
It's, you know, the doctor gives a little mini Florana speech to

1191
00:55:37.739 --> 00:55:39.239
her and that's her response.

1192
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:40.500
Will there be cocktails?

1193
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:44.880
And then all that sort of song froid just drops and they hug one

1194
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:47.039
another and they're super happy to see one another.

1195
00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:48.900
But it's really terrifically good.

1196
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:49.679
Very, very true.

1197
00:55:49.739 --> 00:55:53.099
I think the way in which Clara's written in this episode in the

1198
00:55:53.099 --> 00:55:58.920
next. sort of, it does make you want more of these 2 together, like

1199
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:03.480
for another mini run of 8 episodes. you're left wanting more, which

1200
00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:04.019
is a good thing.

1201
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:04.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1202
00:56:04.739 --> 00:56:07.500
But it wouldn't have hurt to have had a few more episodes of them

1203
00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:12.179
together in that sort of M appeal, Steve sort of relationship that

1204
00:56:12.179 --> 00:56:14.159
would have been quite a lot of fun, I think.

1205
00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:17.820
And odds on and fairness to all the writers.

1206
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:21.239
It's actually a Myrna lawyer and William Powell screwball comedy.

1207
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:25.559
Well, it comes from Thin Man series and no doubt before that, but

1208
00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:27.300
Carol Lombard and Clark Gable.

1209
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:28.199
We've talked about this a lot.

1210
00:56:28.260 --> 00:56:33.300
Hitchcock does it perfectly in 39 steps with Madeline Carroll and

1211
00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:37.559
Donut, Robert Donut, which is one of my favourite films of all

1212
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:40.920
time, but they're actually tied up at the end of the bend and she

1213
00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:42.300
has to get her stockings off.

1214
00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:43.199
And it's 1934.

1215
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:45.360
Britain didn't have a haze code.

1216
00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:48.780
But the same banter and the whole, we're having a lot of sexual

1217
00:56:48.780 --> 00:56:52.739
tension here, but we're actually talking about the weather or the

1218
00:56:52.739 --> 00:56:54.960
latest diabolical mastermind, whatever.

1219
00:56:55.019 --> 00:56:58.079
And there's that lovely, as you said, the songfight of the

1220
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:01.559
dissonance between intention and article.

1221
00:57:01.619 --> 00:57:03.480
And that's what Stephen Moffatt.

1222
00:57:03.539 --> 00:57:07.320
Stephen Moffatt really understands tension in dramatic interplay

1223
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.320
and how, but give it to us, give it to us, as we're always saying

1224
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:10.739
to him.

1225
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:12.179
I'm just going to put that over there.

1226
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:15.360
So you'll think it's coming and you might see a tinge of it, but

1227
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:17.460
I'm actually going to throw something else entirely at you.

1228
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:19.320
That's what day of the doctor is.

1229
00:57:19.380 --> 00:57:22.500
It's not at all what I expected, but I enjoyed it all.

1230
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:24.840
And in my head, well, it's still five-ish doctors.

1231
00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:27.480
But in my head, there's a whole lot of other things that have

1232
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:30.780
happened, and each time we go back and watch it, it's slightly

1233
00:57:30.780 --> 00:57:33.480
different again, because again, you notice his minutiae and

1234
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:36.960
marginalia on the sides of the screen, but you also get the sense

1235
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:39.059
of, I'm still surprised.

1236
00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:41.519
Even after all this time, I'm still surprised.

1237
00:57:41.579 --> 00:57:43.980
Yes, I was picking up new things all the time.

1238
00:57:44.099 --> 00:57:49.079
Back to what you're saying about Clara entering the TARDIS with

1239
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:50.159
the motorbike.

1240
00:57:50.219 --> 00:57:52.739
It gets to show off that magnificent set, but we also get to, of

1241
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:57.840
course, see David set and we get to see the in-between set, which

1242
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:00.059
with all the round things which they love.

1243
00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:01.199
It's so good.

1244
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:05.219
And yours to get Tom, even in the curator scene, where you've got

1245
00:58:05.219 --> 00:58:07.139
all of the on the wall.

1246
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:08.519
Patrick's bedroom, you know.

1247
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:13.380
I love that something that modern who can do.

1248
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:13.980
Yeah.

1249
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:14.340
Yeah.

1250
00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:16.079
You know, we've got the budget. can do it.

1251
00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:20.400
Well, so that set still existed, didn't it, in Cardiff at the

1252
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:21.719
Doctor Who experience?

1253
00:58:21.780 --> 00:58:22.619
Yeah, exactly.

1254
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:25.079
They actually shut down the doctor experience for a day to film

1255
00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:27.659
the scenes in David's in David's house.

1256
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:28.980
Yeah, absolutely.

1257
00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:33.300
And then for the John Hurt, TARDIS, the round things walls had

1258
00:58:33.300 --> 00:58:35.460
been built for an adventure in space and time.

1259
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:39.000
So they are the reproduction Billy Walls.

1260
00:58:39.059 --> 00:58:40.079
Right, yeah.

1261
00:58:40.139 --> 00:58:41.639
Reproduction Billy.

1262
00:58:41.699 --> 00:58:43.800
The paint is still wet.

1263
00:58:45.179 --> 00:58:50.699
Yeah, I love Tenant and the Smith fanboying about the round

1264
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:51.179
things.

1265
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:51.840
Yeah.

1266
00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:52.500
Yeah.

1267
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:55.920
It seems that by all reports, because really there's 4 doctors in

1268
00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:57.420
this, because Tom turns up as well.

1269
00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:03.599
It sounds like Matt Smith is kind of the glue in that David

1270
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:07.139
Tennant said to Stephen, look, I'm going to come in, but I'm going

1271
00:59:07.139 --> 00:59:08.699
to let Matt take the league because it's his show.

1272
00:59:08.699 --> 00:59:11.159
And of course, you know we're both fans, you know what it's like

1273
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:12.960
in the old show when other doctors came on.

1274
00:59:13.019 --> 00:59:15.119
And apparently 1st day on the Tartar set.

1275
00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:17.699
Just before they started shooting, Matt walked up to Dave and said

1276
00:59:17.699 --> 00:59:20.400
now, look, I'm going to be doing controls over here and whatnot.

1277
00:59:20.460 --> 00:59:22.260
But I don't want to hog the flying duties.

1278
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:25.380
If you want to do a bit of dialogue and flick a few switches as

1279
00:59:25.380 --> 00:59:27.659
well, you're the doctor too.

1280
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:30.059
You're adorable.

1281
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:30.420
Yeah.

1282
00:59:30.420 --> 00:59:33.780
And, you know, John Hurt, who knew nothing about Doctor Who after

1283
00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:37.679
William Hart, all hadn't watched it, said in an interview, you

1284
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:40.739
know, he said, yeah, I know what it is, but I don't know what it's

1285
00:59:40.739 --> 00:59:40.860
about.

1286
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:42.659
He said, I have a career for goodness.

1287
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:46.019
But he said, I have such respect for Matt and David.

1288
00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:47.639
You know, they're such good actors.

1289
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:50.639
And they can do all the science-y talk.

1290
00:59:50.699 --> 00:59:53.460
They haven't given me much science-y talk.

1291
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:57.000
I'm glad to say, but those 2 just rattle it off while being sad

1292
00:59:57.000 --> 00:59:58.199
and happy and all this.

1293
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:01.920
He's so generous, isn't he?

1294
01:00:01.980 --> 01:00:05.820
You know, he bumped into Eccleston not long after this.

1295
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:08.039
And he said, we've no, no, John Hurt?

1296
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:08.880
No, John Hurt?

1297
01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:11.460
But I'm into Eggleston, because Eccl still talks about how hurt he

1298
01:00:11.460 --> 01:00:11.760
was.

1299
01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:12.840
Not no pun.

1300
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:13.860
I'm sorry, intended.

1301
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.679
But, you know, and he's riffed with Russell.

1302
01:00:16.739 --> 01:00:17.519
It goes very deep.

1303
01:00:17.579 --> 01:00:21.900
But he came and patted him on the back and said, oh, Chris, we're

1304
01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:22.559
comingled now.

1305
01:00:22.619 --> 01:00:24.420
We mingled together.

1306
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:26.880
We are a mingled entity.

1307
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.980
And that's sweet.

1308
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:33.719
But that is interesting that he just regenerates. there on the

1309
01:00:33.719 --> 01:00:33.960
spot.

1310
01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:36.179
Like, it's done, so I'm going to regenerate.

1311
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:37.980
Maybe you buy it more than me.

1312
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:41.639
I think that what is happening is that Moffatt is filling in the

1313
01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:45.420
gaps and so we get to see those 2 doctors who we haven't seen

1314
01:00:45.420 --> 01:00:46.980
regenerate, we get to see them.

1315
01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:49.619
Oh, yes, because in the night of the doctor, we've got that as

1316
01:00:49.619 --> 01:00:49.800
well.

1317
01:00:49.860 --> 01:00:54.000
And I think possibly narratively you could hand wave it as, you

1318
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:56.880
know, he was the doctor who had to find the time war, the time war

1319
01:00:56.880 --> 01:00:59.400
is over now so he can go away.

1320
01:00:59.579 --> 01:01:01.800
It is just convenient to fill in the gap.

1321
01:01:01.860 --> 01:01:06.659
And interestingly enough, you know, people have gone, why didn't

1322
01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:08.760
they go further with the visual?

1323
01:01:08.820 --> 01:01:11.159
And there's some fan versions where they do go further?

1324
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:13.440
But Stephen Moffett was asked about that a few years later?

1325
01:01:13.500 --> 01:01:17.159
And he said, given that Chris said he didn't want to appear in it

1326
01:01:17.159 --> 01:01:20.460
he said, I can do it as a hint, but I felt going fully into

1327
01:01:20.460 --> 01:01:21.960
Chris's face would be disrespectful.

1328
01:01:22.019 --> 01:01:24.840
And the interviewer said, so did you ask Chris about that?

1329
01:01:24.900 --> 01:01:25.739
He said, no, no, no.

1330
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:29.099
I feel asking him would have been pressuring him to allow use of

1331
01:01:29.099 --> 01:01:29.579
his likeness.

1332
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:32.280
Chris has said he has a lot of respect for Stephen Moffin.

1333
01:01:32.340 --> 01:01:32.760
Yeah, totally.

1334
01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:36.659
Well, I mean, Stephen Moffatt wrote that incredible two-parter for

1335
01:01:36.659 --> 01:01:40.800
him to be in, so he has acted a Stephen Moffatt script.

1336
01:01:40.860 --> 01:01:45.659
I think also that it's telling that he's the only doctor who's

1337
01:01:45.659 --> 01:01:46.860
TARDIS we go into.

1338
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:51.059
So we see all of the doctors on the screens in the Galafray war

1339
01:01:51.059 --> 01:01:55.199
room, but we do actually see Chris saying the thing from inside

1340
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:55.920
the Tartars.

1341
01:01:55.980 --> 01:01:56.820
Yeah, totally.

1342
01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:00.420
I'm nicking off and you can marry whoever you like, you loose

1343
01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:04.739
bloody children, you cleaned that up.

1344
01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:08.699
But then we also get 13 doctors.

1345
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:10.679
We also get that little snippet of Capella.

1346
01:02:10.739 --> 01:02:11.880
What did we think of that?

1347
01:02:11.940 --> 01:02:12.360
Do you remember?

1348
01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:13.320
Do you remember your reaction?

1349
01:02:13.380 --> 01:02:14.340
Did you gasp?

1350
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:16.440
I can't remember.

1351
01:02:16.500 --> 01:02:19.139
I guess, but I grabbed Brendan.

1352
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:21.000
Yes, exactly, he did.

1353
01:02:21.539 --> 01:02:23.699
Grab your Brendan's gender.

1354
01:02:23.699 --> 01:02:25.380
After 9 years, Are you okay?

1355
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:27.360
The bruising's gone down.

1356
01:02:27.420 --> 01:02:34.199
Yeah, and the swelling...

1357
01:02:35.340 --> 01:02:36.000
I think I did.

1358
01:02:36.059 --> 01:02:39.480
I think, yeah, because then they would have had to get him in to

1359
01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:40.739
film that little bit.

1360
01:02:40.860 --> 01:02:41.639
Yeah.

1361
01:02:41.639 --> 01:02:45.239
And he wasn't yet filming and was he not yet filming?

1362
01:02:45.300 --> 01:02:48.119
No, and we only see his eyebrows partly because that works.

1363
01:02:48.179 --> 01:02:50.280
That's actually all he is though, isn't he?

1364
01:02:50.340 --> 01:02:53.159
Also because they haven't worked out what his costume's going to

1365
01:02:53.159 --> 01:02:54.360
be at the time.

1366
01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:57.059
Wasn't he still filming Musketeers or?

1367
01:02:57.059 --> 01:02:58.079
Yes, yeah.

1368
01:02:58.139 --> 01:02:58.860
Mouseketeers?

1369
01:02:58.920 --> 01:02:59.219
was that?

1370
01:02:59.219 --> 01:03:00.599
No, he was.

1371
01:03:00.659 --> 01:03:01.500
It was Musketeers.

1372
01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:06.000
So he filmed this on the same day he filmed his side of the

1373
01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:06.539
regeneration.

1374
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:08.760
Oh, okay. for time of the doctor.

1375
01:03:08.820 --> 01:03:11.880
And if you look at time of the doctor, even though he peers at

1376
01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:13.199
Jenna, they're never in the same shot.

1377
01:03:13.260 --> 01:03:14.340
Oh okay.

1378
01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:17.940
So they did that to fit in with his schedule.

1379
01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:23.039
So it was this weird thing of Matt actually had to match him when

1380
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:23.760
he came to film it.

1381
01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:26.039
So Jim wasn't there.

1382
01:03:26.099 --> 01:03:28.019
He wasn't there with Jenna in...

1383
01:03:28.019 --> 01:03:28.860
Oh, that's a shame.

1384
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:29.880
I think not.

1385
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.699
I'm thinking back and obviously I haven't rewatched Time of the

1386
01:03:32.699 --> 01:03:35.940
Doctor for the podcast yet, but I think Capaldi and Jenner don't

1387
01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:38.639
actually appear in the same shot, but I could be wrong.

1388
01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.039
And if I am wrong, it means that yes, they brought Jenna in.

1389
01:03:41.099 --> 01:03:41.820
Right, right.

1390
01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:44.039
But yeah, so that's that's when they film that.

1391
01:03:44.099 --> 01:03:46.079
And yet that was a moment in the cinema.

1392
01:03:46.139 --> 01:03:47.880
No, unintended.

1393
01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:50.460
No, I remember there was a fricking roar from that.

1394
01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:54.360
Because if you didn't know that Matt was going, you'd be going

1395
01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:54.960
what the hell is this?

1396
01:03:55.019 --> 01:03:56.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1397
01:03:56.699 --> 01:03:57.900
It's it's the same thing.

1398
01:03:57.960 --> 01:04:00.420
You know, the paratext is important.

1399
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:04.199
The trailers, all of that stuff can be assumed knowledge.

1400
01:04:04.260 --> 01:04:06.300
And we'd had that special, hadn't we?

1401
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:07.079
Yeah, in August.

1402
01:04:07.139 --> 01:04:07.860
Yeah.

1403
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:08.219
Yeah.

1404
01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:12.599
So Tom Baker's involvement was treated like a big secret.

1405
01:04:12.659 --> 01:04:16.980
He was picked up at 130 in the morning in a Hessian sack in a

1406
01:04:16.980 --> 01:04:17.579
Hessian sack.

1407
01:04:18.059 --> 01:04:23.340
Driven driven to Cardiff to arrive at 430 in the morning, taken

1408
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:25.980
out of the Hessian sack and put in makeup and a costume and what

1409
01:04:25.980 --> 01:04:26.400
have you.

1410
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:28.920
And the way Tom tells it is apparently, you know, everyone was

1411
01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:31.199
very attentive and got me in costume and got me cups of tea and

1412
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:33.059
things, but he's like, no one talked to me.

1413
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:36.360
There was no conversation and I was just, they were getting it

1414
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.880
ready and I was just standing on the side of feeling like this sad

1415
01:04:38.880 --> 01:04:42.300
lonely old man who's just been wheeled out for the coronation or

1416
01:04:42.300 --> 01:04:42.539
whatever.

1417
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:47.280
And then he said, then this tall man with a with a chin and a nose

1418
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:50.400
and big and big hair came out of the shadows and Tom, how

1419
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:51.420
wonderful to see you.

1420
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:52.739
Thank you so much for coming.

1421
01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:56.820
And as Tom puts it, my gloom was lifted by the arrival of Matt

1422
01:04:56.820 --> 01:05:00.000
Smith, who welcomed me so enthusiastically that I began to think

1423
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:01.559
life was worthwhile.

1424
01:05:01.619 --> 01:05:03.420
That's so lovely.

1425
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.179
Speech, holy crap, it's so perfect.

1426
01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:06.840
Yeah.

1427
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:09.900
Was it just him and those 2 on set?

1428
01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:11.280
It was just those 2 on set.

1429
01:05:11.340 --> 01:05:13.800
Like that's why Jenna walks off.

1430
01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:15.900
It's like, let's have as few people on set as possible.

1431
01:05:16.019 --> 01:05:17.760
The witch has to attend her well.

1432
01:05:17.820 --> 01:05:19.920
Sorry, I just love that joke.

1433
01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:21.000
So good.

1434
01:05:21.059 --> 01:05:22.380
Well, it's from Hyde.

1435
01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:24.300
That's one of the names of the ghost in high.

1436
01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:25.619
That's how forgettable hide is.

1437
01:05:25.739 --> 01:05:29.099
So lovely. just makes me love this even more.

1438
01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:40.199
We're at the end of this, seeing all the doctors standing there is

1439
01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:42.420
such a wonderful iconic moment.

1440
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:48.000
We've had lines from each of them their final lines, like, over

1441
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:48.480
tenant.

1442
01:05:48.539 --> 01:05:50.460
I want to go, something that...

1443
01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:51.239
He always says that.

1444
01:05:51.420 --> 01:05:52.199
That is correct.

1445
01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:53.519
All 2 times.

1446
01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:54.840
Like, you can't wait.

1447
01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:55.559
I don't like it.

1448
01:05:55.619 --> 01:05:58.679
Yeah, yeah, like Stephen just knows what these lines.

1449
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:03.059
I can't wait for Jody to say, I'm letting the door bang me ass. on

1450
01:06:03.059 --> 01:06:03.659
the way out.

1451
01:06:03.719 --> 01:06:05.280
Wait, okay.

1452
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:10.320
But just that just that whole iconic shot of them all standing

1453
01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:10.800
there.

1454
01:06:10.860 --> 01:06:11.940
Beautiful. beautiful.

1455
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:17.460
In a way, it doesn't quite end up paying off, I think, because it

1456
01:06:17.460 --> 01:06:20.400
does promise something different, and it only vaguely promises it

1457
01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:25.199
because he does say home the long way round, but the circumstances

1458
01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:27.599
under which he goes home are very different from what these

1459
01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:28.860
anticipates, I think.

1460
01:06:28.980 --> 01:06:30.599
Yeah, definitely, definitely.

1461
01:06:30.659 --> 01:06:34.320
It's a little bit like the end of the 5 doctors where, you know

1462
01:06:34.320 --> 01:06:37.920
the doctor goes on the run again. you know, and so we've got a

1463
01:06:37.920 --> 01:06:42.840
sort of new start to the show after that special and now we get it

1464
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:45.900
again with the 50th, you know, he's got a new lease of life.

1465
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:49.559
He's not heading inevitably towards Transilore.

1466
01:06:49.619 --> 01:06:51.360
He's got some other mission.

1467
01:06:51.420 --> 01:06:53.099
Yeah, well, that's the thing.

1468
01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:57.420
It gives the fact that they were able to change the past tells him

1469
01:06:57.420 --> 01:07:00.239
you know, then the 10th doctor says to him, we need a new

1470
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:00.840
destination.

1471
01:07:00.900 --> 01:07:02.699
And it's like it's something we can change.

1472
01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:06.960
You know, I know, Nathan, for instance, that you and I disagree on

1473
01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:09.719
Lake Silencio, whether the doctor originally died or not.

1474
01:07:09.780 --> 01:07:12.599
You say, yes, he did and then the past changes, whereas I'm like

1475
01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:14.280
it's always been this way.

1476
01:07:14.340 --> 01:07:17.460
But this is a situation where I'm like, no, no, no, he did

1477
01:07:17.460 --> 01:07:21.780
definitely blow up Gallifrey the 1st time. and then needed to grow

1478
01:07:21.780 --> 01:07:24.239
and heal in order to realise there was a better way.

1479
01:07:24.300 --> 01:07:28.440
But because John Hurt isn't going to remember it, It still leads

1480
01:07:28.440 --> 01:07:29.099
to the same growth.

1481
01:07:29.219 --> 01:07:31.260
That is such a clever bookending.

1482
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:32.880
I hadn't thought that the 2 related before.

1483
01:07:32.940 --> 01:07:33.300
Yes.

1484
01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:34.679
Todd, what were you thinking?

1485
01:07:34.739 --> 01:07:37.440
Oh no, I just love the fact that John Hare can't retain things

1486
01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:39.300
because the time streams are out of sync.

1487
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.940
It's something that we always say when doctors meet each other and

1488
01:07:41.940 --> 01:07:43.440
now it's been verbalised.

1489
01:07:43.500 --> 01:07:48.000
So that helps me cross the T's and dot the I. Although I quite

1490
01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:51.119
like Matt Smith's other theory, which is that David Tennant's just

1491
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:51.960
not paying attention.

1492
01:07:54.119 --> 01:08:01.320
Look, in the end, this is, I just think, joyous and Stephen does

1493
01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:04.260
an extraordinary job and it's near perfect, which is why I give it

1494
01:08:04.260 --> 01:08:05.519
a 9 out of 10.

1495
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.359
Well, Delicious, that's all we have time for.

1496
01:08:30.420 --> 01:08:30.840
For now.

1497
01:08:30.899 --> 01:08:34.800
We'll be back, basically, immediately, with another episode of

1498
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:37.800
Flight through Entirety, in which we discuss the day of the

1499
01:08:37.800 --> 01:08:38.100
doctor.

1500
01:08:38.340 --> 01:08:42.300
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1501
01:08:42.300 --> 01:08:45.180
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1502
01:08:45.180 --> 01:08:49.739
at FT Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1503
01:08:48.300 --> 01:08:52.979
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger

1504
01:08:52.979 --> 01:08:57.239
Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek

1505
01:08:57.239 --> 01:08:57.659
project.

1506
01:08:58.140 --> 01:09:03.539
Until next time, may you fail doing the right thing, as opposed to

1507
01:09:03.539 --> 01:09:04.859
succeeding in doing the wrong one.

1508
01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:07.680
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1509
01:09:07.739 --> 01:09:08.460
Good night.

1510
01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:09.359
See you soon.

1511
01:09:09.420 --> 01:09:12.239
Well, I won't be speaking to it. of you ever again after what

1512
01:09:12.239 --> 01:09:13.380
you've just said, but yes.

1513
01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:25.619
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd, but it'll be

1514
01:09:25.619 --> 01:09:27.600
Nathan Bottomley, Brandon, Jones, and Richard Stone.

1515
01:09:27.659 --> 01:09:29.819
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb.

1516
01:09:29.939 --> 01:09:32.520
This episode, the glue that holds everything together, was

1517
01:09:32.520 --> 01:09:36.479
recorded on the 24th of July 2022 and released on the 23rd of

1518
01:09:36.479 --> 01:09:36.779
November.

1519
01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:48.600
So, you've now heard what the original flight through Entirety

1520
01:09:48.600 --> 01:09:51.659
Cast have to say about the day of the doctor, but stay tuned to

1521
01:09:51.659 --> 01:09:54.720
your podcatcher of choice. where you'll find a 2nd episode with

1522
01:09:54.720 --> 01:09:57.239
our new series cast discussing the same story.

1523
01:09:57.300 --> 01:09:58.560
I'll see you over there.

1524
01:10:04.619 --> 01:10:07.560
So August 2013, they announced it was Peter Capaldi.

1525
01:10:07.619 --> 01:10:08.279
Yeah.

1526
01:10:08.340 --> 01:10:11.699
Because when they were filming this, Matt was still under talks to

1527
01:10:11.699 --> 01:10:13.020
possibly do series 8.

1528
01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:13.560
Right.

1529
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:18.239
And I actually wonder, um, and, you know, where I'm flashing

1530
01:10:18.239 --> 01:10:24.359
forward, but we have mentioned foreshadowing Danny Pink that, um

1531
01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:28.800
there's also a teacher in there who sort of floppy haired and has

1532
01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:29.699
a bow-time one.

1533
01:10:29.760 --> 01:10:33.720
Well, the guy who runs in to tell Clara that her doctor called is

1534
01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:36.000
floppy haired and a bit Matt Smith-ish.

1535
01:10:36.060 --> 01:10:39.119
So I wonder if Moffatt was already thinking ahead of, hey, if I

1536
01:10:39.119 --> 01:10:42.539
can get this guy back, they obviously went down a different path.

1537
01:10:43.739 --> 01:10:48.960
Yeah, and I do, I do, knowing what I know now, I did, I did wonder

1538
01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:49.619
watching that scene.

1539
01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:53.279
It's like, he's a bit Matt Smithy and a bit breakfast, a bit

1540
01:10:53.279 --> 01:10:53.760
breathless.

1541
01:10:54.060 --> 01:10:55.979
Also for breakfast.

1542
01:10:58.859 --> 01:11:00.359
All right.

1543
01:11:00.420 --> 01:11:01.439
I think we need an out.

1544
01:11:01.619 --> 01:11:05.279
Um, look, I don't know.

1545
01:11:05.340 --> 01:11:07.140
We're at the end. of this.

1546
01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:10.859
Seeing all the doctors standing there is such a wonderful iconic

1547
01:11:10.859 --> 01:11:11.100
moment.