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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:30:01

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Hello Welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's releasing just one episode today on the day of the doctor.

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Actually, it's our 1st day here.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Peter.

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It's been a mere moment since we were discussing the 50th anniversary special of Doctor Who, but there's a lot more to say and still more people left to say it.

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So here we are again, remembering what happened on the day of the doctor.

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So I actually started our previous episode this way, and I'm going to do it again.

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Peter, can you remember where you were when you 1st saw this episode?

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I can.

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I was in my sitting room in London and I had around me an array of people who I'd been friends with for decades because of Doctor Who.

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So Simon was there and our friend Matt, Matt Jones. and various other people. as well, Fiona was there.

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Todd was there.

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Todd was there, of course.

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And so we all watched it together and we all had that kind of collective fan experience.

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Yep, Paul was there.

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That collector fan experience that really, I don't think I'd had since the curse of Fenrick in 1989 when we all gathered round to watch it for the 1st time together.

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So it was it was a pretty special experience actually.

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And so I don't need to ask you, Simon.

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Well, same answer, but it wasn't my living room.

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But if I could just say the great thing about that, even though a number of us had gone to Britain for the 50th anniversary, like Todd and Fiona and I, for instance, all separately, it was lovely having all in the main Australians in the room because in each nation for different reasons because of different broadcast schedules and so on, we all have a slightly different experience of the program.

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And so it was great to share the Australian experience with other Australians even though we were watching it in Britain.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And James. can't remember.

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Oh, come on, we went to...

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Yeah, I just seem to remember turning up with a lot of sparkling Shiraz at 6 o'clock in the morning or something and we had a few drinks.

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I had to drive.

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So I had to be well behaved.

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And then we watched it on IView.

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And then you and I went to the cinema, to the Dandy up the road here and watched it again. watched it again in 3D. That was when I was living in Waterloo, wasn't it?

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah.

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It was the culmination of a pretty amazing week, I think.

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And, you know, flight through entirety is partly about our experiences of watching Doctor Who as much as it is about the show itself.

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And so this was pretty seminal.

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I have very, very strong memories of watching the 5 doctors for the 1st time.

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I know exactly where I was and the fact that I wasn't in Sydney and so I could actually watch it because there was no blackout or whatever.

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Yeah, lost the 1st hour of it.

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Parts of Sydney.

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This was huge.

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It was one of those times where Doctor Who really connected with the mainstream audience.

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So I can think of, since the series came back, There was probably a week or 2 in 2008, around Journey's end, and the stolen earth, where Doctor Who was absolutely the zeitgeist, and people who were not fans were talking about it and asking you about it.

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It was a newspaper headlines and the stars were all over the TV in different shows.

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And this was the 2nd time.

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That week leading up to the airing of the day of the doctor.

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Doctor Who was everywhere.

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Just everywhere you looked.

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There was mentions of Doctor Who and people talking about talk to.

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And of course, Simon, you might remember that we went to the big convention, which was held in London over the 3 days.

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Yes.

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Yes, and I can't, for the life of me, remember which day it was that we were there.

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Was it the Saturday or the Sunday?

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Because it was only one day that you went.

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We were there Saturday and Sunday.

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Todd went on Friday as well with Fiona.

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It was excessive, wasn't it?

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But the thing was, it wasn't.

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You just revelled in it.

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It was so amazing, the feeling.

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Let's move on to the episode itself, though.

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I think it absolutely is aware that it's being watched by a massive group of people and that this is a big deal.

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And just watching it yesterday.

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It just struck me how incredibly cinematic the beginning is.

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It's interesting what you say about like the number of people watching because this is probably the Doctor Who episode that's been washed by the most people ever at the same time.

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It was simulcast around the world.

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It, you know, like they, didn't they sort of work out that it had maybe like 90000000 viewers or something crazy like that across, across all different countries.

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That's where it was brought.

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That's actually an interesting thing because, I mean, more so now, but even by 2013, the need to watch something on broadcast had already started to fall away.

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So this idea of this communal experience where everyone you know is watching the same thing.

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Yeah, water cooler moments.

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Yeah, and having the water cooler moment, et cetera.

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And I think that this was obviously something that everyone did make the effort to watch as it went out.

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Um, even in the wee small hours of the morning, uh, at this side of the wall.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It was really quite early.

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Were you unspoiled?

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Does anyone remember whether they knew, for instance, that Tom was going to show up?

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didn't know that.

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That is one thing I did not know.

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Yeah, yeah, I didn't either.

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And I also think Capaldi appearing for just that brief shot is a pretty remarkable thing.

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This could have been anyone's eyes. don't think so.

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The eyebrows on the other hand.

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Their attack eyebrows.

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That's back eyebrows.

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It's funny though, with that scene, I mean, we're getting probably getting ahead of ourselves, but no, I didn't know that Tom was going to turn up, but basically about 15 seconds before he does, you think Tom Baker's about to show up, isn't he?

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Oh, really?

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I actually had this kind of premonition when he says, I'm sure I did.

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I don't think I'm just, you know, thinking about this in retrospect.

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When, you know, everyone leaves Matt alone in front of the painting and the caretakers around.

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It was either going to be Tom or it was going to be Peter Capaldi.

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Oh, okay, yes, of course, of course.

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I mean, obviously, letting us hear his voice before we see him is absolutely the right move.

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We didn't mention who the director was in our last episode, but it's Nick Curran.

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Oh, the fabulous current.

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Yeah, it's amazing.

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And just talking about that scene with the curator, it absolutely gives you goosebumps, not just the way that it's scripted and Tom and Matt's brilliant chemistry, but it's directed beautifully with the cut to Tom suddenly being next to Matt where you've only heard his voice previously.

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And then when he leaves, he sort of fades into the background out of focus, as he parts the room, it's pretty amazing.

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Yeah, Harran's incredible, isn't he?

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I mean, I think he's one of the best directors of the modern era, if not the best.

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And this episode tries to bring original series, Doctor Who, and new Doctor Who together.

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And I think that moment is the focus of it because not only do you have Tom Baker, the acme of original Doctor Who, opposite Matt Smith, and they really work well together.

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It feels like the marriage of the 2 parts of the series that you've been waiting for, all in one scene.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think that that's what this is doing, isn't it?

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And we had, you know, just in night of the doctor just a week or so ago we have the sisterhood of Khan being brought into the fold.

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This time we finally get zygons after, you know, imagining them turning up the most obvious sort of one shot monster to be recreated.

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And this is very much that.

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We end with a shot of all of the doctors, old and new series together in the, in the one show that's been kind of finally healed of the 16 year gap in the middle of it.

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And I mean, let's not be, um, you know, there was talk at the time that, you know, it couldn't be a proper anniversary special, unless it had Peter Davison and Colin Baker and Paul McGannon and that.

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I think they made the right choice.

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It was just, you needed to focus in on something.

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He couldn't just have a bunch of cameos by people who hadn't played the role for 30 years.

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No.

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No.

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And I mean, the 5 doctors basically is that.

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But in a sense, the 5 doctors is a children in need special.

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It's a light entertainment thing.

120
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It is we just haul everyone out to do their party piece and there's no story as such.

121
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Oh, I think that's a bit unkind.

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Yeah, you got Terrence Sticks, right?

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That's the criticism.

124
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No, no, I think you're redconning the fact that it was part of children in need to justify that.

125
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I mean, watching it as an 11 year old in Australia.

126
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Oh, it was the best thing ever.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Well, sorry, watching the last half hour of it. until it was repeated in January.

129
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The 5 Doctors is my earliest memory of Doctor Who.

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And you'd have been like three.

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Four, yeah, three, 3 or four.

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Yeah.

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But what we have here is a bit more ambitious than the 5 doctors because it is trying to tell a story about the doctor.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, you know, 5 doctors is confident and fun and funny and wonderful in all sorts of ways.

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And I guess it takes the same approach to story as these stars.

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I mean, this is telling 2 stories, but they're both individually fairly straightforward stories.

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There's a point that Moffat has made in interviews, which is that Doctor Who is rarely about the doctor and this story is about the doctor.

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The doctor is the focus of this story in a way that he events usually happen around him and he happens to events, but events don't happen to him.

140
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And you can't view the special in isolation.

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It's the day of the doctor, but we've also had the name of the doctor, the night of the doctor, and we will have the time of the doctor.

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So it's kind of the whole anniversary year is about the doctor and what he stands for.

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It's an episode about big things, deservedly, about big things.

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I think, you know, of course it's the 50th, but it's going to be about the biggest thing that we never saw in Doctor Who, which is the time war.

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And the time war is the thing, that Bridges, classic Doctor Who and new Doctor Who in the fiction of the show.

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Yeah.

147
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Yes, exactly.

148
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So how do what do we feel about how that's portrayed and how that's realised?

149
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Can I answer my own question?

150
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Yeah, please.

151
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That's one of the disappointments for me about it.

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I mean, I love it.

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There's so much about it to love.

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There's so much about this to love, but I just don't think it all quite lands.

155
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And unfortunately, the time war is as shown in those, not the very opening scene, but early on, I actually find it quite unimaginative.

156
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It sort of new Star Wars meets Terminator with all the operatic and coral incidental music, which says this is dramatic.

157
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Um, And if it's a time war, right?

158
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That implies something so much more exciting.

159
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This is just a war.

160
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What we're seeing is a war, right?

161
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That could be anything.

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Whereas a time war.

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You're talking about abstract.

164
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Exactly.

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A time war is something between 2 races capable of time travel.

166
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It almost needs to be incredibly funky, and the ultimate weapon is to go back in time and prevent your enemy from actually being born or whatever, which is kind of actually what the time lords tries to do in genesis of the Daleks, right?

167
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Which is what starts the time or...

168
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Well, but that's a good way.

169
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I don't know whether it's stated.

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It's not stated in the show.

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That was that was Russell's thinking.

172
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Yes, okay, but that's a backstory.

173
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That's not something that's...

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The Zigon's planet was destroyed in the early years of the time war.

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And we've had the nestings as well who've been affected by the time war as well.

176
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Russell's time war is utterly unfilmable, isn't it?

177
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And I think...

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Deservedly so.

179
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

180
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You were mentioning the other day, like Russell's version of the time war is just completely.

181
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Like you say, unfilmably.

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It's inconceivable.

183
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It's fantastic.

184
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It's...

185
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I don't know that any of that's true.

186
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Sorry, because I don't get the sense that when I hear that the fact that the Zygon planet, or the nesting planet, or whatever it is, is destroyed by the time war, I'm not getting that it's anything other than a great big bomb destroying.

187
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No, no, no, that's not what I mean.

188
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Like when Russell, like, writes about the time war.

189
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It is, like the language, the description is, you know, like, you know, the sometimes king, the nightmare child.

190
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That was a demonstration.

191
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Yeah.

192
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Yeah, yeah, so all that kind of stuff is just is just bollocks, you know.

193
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No, but it isn't, it doesn't, no, it's just words.

194
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It's not actually, it's not actually interesting.

195
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I think that gets to the heart of what you're saying, even if you don't particularly like the words that Russell uses.

196
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He's describing the war in abstract terms.

197
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So it's just this, it's just this thing off to the side, which you can, you can put anything onto it that you want to.

198
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Yeah, you can't imagine this is actually...

199
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No, no, fair, fair.

200
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And that's my point.

201
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Fair enough, from that point of view.

202
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But I still think that there's a much more interesting way of, even if it's just a couple of lines of dialogue to describe the kinds of things that might be happening in a time war, which aren't just a whole lot of Dalek flying sauces attacking Gallifrey.

203
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I think, though, that the time war that we get here is the most gun time war imaginable.

204
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And that's why I don't like it, but that's why the doctor shouldn't be being involved in it.

205
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Exactly.

206
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I mean, I've never liked this kind of thing.

207
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I mean, Doctor is the soldier.

208
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I mean, you know, I spent my childhood watching, you know, the per wheat doctor on repeats.

209
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I'm not that old. being anti-military, not in the same way that we come to see him Capaldi, but still being the gun is the last resort.

210
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I'm not saying it makes it terrible as a result.

211
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I'm just saying it makes it not nearly as interesting as it might.

212
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Surely that is the point of the episode in the character, the war doctor is to show that this war has perverted this character.

213
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And the purpose of the story is not just to heal the, you know, the division between the original and new series.

214
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It's to heal the damage that's been done to that character by the time war.

215
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Yeah.

216
00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:43.799
By Russell, you know, like Russell makes the doctor someone who has killed all of the time laws.

217
00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:44.460
Yeah, yeah.

218
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:55.379
And we kind of justify that in end of time part too, because the time lords are now totally evil and utterly genocidal as well in a way that we're not going to mention in this end.

219
00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:56.759
In this episode.

220
00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:59.220
Well, hilary 4, this is arguably before the event.

221
00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:00.240
No, it's happening at the same time.

222
00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:07.139
Because the general says, oh, you know, the high council have their own plans or whatever, but then their plans are, let's kill everything.

223
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.700
But it's not just that because like in end of time.

224
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.419
There is a line, which is the moment has been stolen.

225
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.679
Yeah Yeah.

226
00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:17.940
So Russell invents the moment.

227
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:18.360
Yes.

228
00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:18.960
Right, okay.

229
00:16:19.019 --> 00:16:22.139
And so this is this is actually red conning that.

230
00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.299
No, it's happening at the same time.

231
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:36.720
Yeah, exactly. or in Arcadia or something at his sort of fabulous table and then Timothy Dalton's upstairs spitting and yelling at people and throwing time.

232
00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:41.279
Do we like the fact that all the gala friends seem to be dressed like this is Sisterhood of Khan?

233
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.559
They will have the same kind of colour scheme.

234
00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:45.779
Maybe they're the other sisterhood of calm.

235
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:47.159
The London-based system.

236
00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:52.980
But the funny thing about that is are we getting a distinction in those time or sequences between gala frames and time lords?

237
00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:53.879
Maybe.

238
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:58.860
Because there is that suggestion that time, not, you know, all time lords are gala frames, but not all gala frames.

239
00:16:58.919 --> 00:16:59.940
Maybe they're Shebogans.

240
00:17:00.059 --> 00:17:02.159
How terrible is boring. that would have been.

241
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.160
Let's hope no one ever clears that up.

242
00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:08.519
I mean, that paging big finish. please don't do that.

243
00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:11.460
I have to say, I agree with both what Simon and James are saying.

244
00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:12.599
I agree with me more.

245
00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:14.759
I do agree with you.

246
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.099
I agree with James that, you know, it's good.

247
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:22.980
Yeah, it's really great that Moffat sets out to heal the idea of the doctor as warrior.

248
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:32.220
I think that's a really interesting element to bring to the doctor's character that there was this part of him who had to act, he didn't want to, and he's kind of shunned him and he shunned himself ever since.

249
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:36.059
But what time I'm saying about kind of the way that the war is presented.

250
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:37.980
I understand that it's for a wide audience.

251
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:39.900
We want big effects and things like that.

252
00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:43.259
But as with the rest of this episode, and I really do like it.

253
00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:45.119
There's some brilliant parts of it.

254
00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:48.240
It felt like it was one or 2 drafts away from being really good.

255
00:17:48.299 --> 00:17:51.539
And I think if Moffat had had more time.

256
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:58.500
He might have come up with something cleverer to depict the actual time war rather than Daleks attacking from the sky and people running away.

257
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:02.220
Yeah, I worry that it's actually one or 2 drafts too many, maybe.

258
00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:04.380
It could be the other problem.

259
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:05.160
Maybe, yeah.

260
00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:10.799
Do you think that's because this story went through production hell?

261
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:16.619
They did try and get Eccleston for quite a long time before he said no?

262
00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:32.160
And there were also points at which, well, like after after series 7 is completed, the only main cast member who is contracted to Doctor Who is Jenna Coleman.

263
00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:44.519
So there was a point where if Matt had actually gone, I'm done, no anniversary, especially, like he wrote a version of the script called The No Doctors.

264
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:48.119
I mean, I mean, absence of the doctor.

265
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:51.660
I mean, I don't think that was ever seriously entertained very long.

266
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:56.099
I think there was no indication that Matt was never going to come back, even though he was not officially under contract.

267
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:56.880
Not contract.

268
00:18:56.940 --> 00:19:01.619
I think for maybe half a day, Moffat sat there thinking, if I don't have any doctors, what do I rise?

269
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:04.980
But it was never a serious script or a version of the script.

270
00:19:04.980 --> 00:19:11.039
I think the thing that really mucked it up was that for a long time it was going to be Eccleston's doctor.

271
00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:13.859
And I think that would have made actually for a better story.

272
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.099
It would have made for a more cohesive story within the fiction of Doctor Two.

273
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:22.140
But having said that, if we couldn't get Eccleston, I think this was an elegant way out of it.

274
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.140
Yeah, I don't think that it changes it all that much.

275
00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:28.619
I think it's just nicer for us as fans had Eccleston been in there.

276
00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:37.980
But I don't actually think fun, and obviously some things would have been different, but at the same time, I don't know whether certain fundamental things that I'm complaining about would have actually been different.

277
00:19:38.099 --> 00:19:40.500
I kind of disagree with that.

278
00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:51.660
I think it's actually better for having heard in it because not just their sort of superficial points where, you know, like Eccleston in-rose is newly regenerated.

279
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:52.559
It's very clear.

280
00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:53.339
Yes, it's very clear.

281
00:19:53.400 --> 00:20:04.380
And, you know, so it doesn't work in that on that level, but I think it doesn't work for the character because this is not a man who would commit genocide.

282
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:10.319
This is a man who has committed genocide and regrets it and is completely broken by it.

283
00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:11.039
So.

284
00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:13.920
But do we know how different the Eccleston version would have been?

285
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:19.380
Was the Eccles still in version, anything more than a script outline is what I'm sort of saying?

286
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.559
I don't think it ever leaked, but I do know that Stephen wrote some of it because he showed it to Christopher Angleston.

287
00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:26.099
Yeah.

288
00:20:26.099 --> 00:20:32.759
And then, like, seriously considered it being McGann's doctor.

289
00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:33.960
But then the baby C rejected.

290
00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:35.700
And the BBC said, no, he's not big enough.

291
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:37.380
Paul McCann.

292
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:38.160
It wouldn't have really mattered.

293
00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:40.740
But again, surely for the purposes of the 50s.

294
00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:41.819
What does it matter?

295
00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.940
Yeah, if you can get John Hurt, parachute John Hurt into the show.

296
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:45.660
Yeah, that's right.

297
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.059
It gives us John Hurt, a seriously good actor.

298
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:49.380
Yeah, seriously.

299
00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:50.700
What the hell is he doing in this time?

300
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:52.380
Oh, I can't do anything.

301
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.140
They are, but it also...

302
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.200
It helps with that healing with the old series because he's an old man doctor.

303
00:20:58.259 --> 00:21:00.119
He's a heart and all or a pert one.

304
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:02.039
And so we need that figure in the story.

305
00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:12.299
Because what you wouldn't have got with Eccleston is the hilarious critique that he brings to his success as performance ticks and character and all of that.

306
00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:14.220
It's amongst my favourite parts of the story.

307
00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:14.819
It really great.

308
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:16.980
Because, I mean, Tennant makes fun of him.

309
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.519
You know, I'm really digging the sort of posh gravel.

310
00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:27.299
And so he gets to do that.

311
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:32.519
And so that's a big element of the old series that would otherwise not have been there.

312
00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:38.099
I don't think you can have Eccleston critiquing his successes because he's like them.

313
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.819
Yes, he's part of the new thing.

314
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:46.680
In some respects, John Heard is the distillation of the original series doctrinist.

315
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:52.799
Yes, they brought back Peter Davis and it would have turned to David Tennant and said, do try and speak English.

316
00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:11.819
Do people want to say nice things?

317
00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:13.319
I've got not nice things to do.

318
00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:15.180
I have nice things to say.

319
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:16.859
Not nice things to say about the repartee.

320
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:18.660
Oh, well, that's the best part of it for me.

321
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:19.259
Talk about it.

322
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.720
Yeah, no, I mean, I just think those lines are funny.

323
00:22:21.779 --> 00:22:24.599
It's what we've come to expect from a multi doctor special.

324
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:27.960
Yeah, you know, they make fun of one another and that's sort of terribly great.

325
00:22:28.019 --> 00:22:30.359
And just all of those sort of moffety lines.

326
00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:44.400
I think the moment after Tenet critiques John Hurt for his gravelly posh voice, that's the moment where Matt Smith calls him Dick Van Dyke. of his patently crap.

327
00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:46.259
London accent.

328
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.460
But the 1st line from Matt, though, about, well, I've never seen it from the outside.

329
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:52.200
That's like special.

330
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:56.519
Yeah, it's it's just nice for them to.

331
00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:59.400
I mean, it's the old sort of fancy pants scarecrow. on speed.

332
00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:08.460
And I don't know whether it's the sort of the bickering between, you know, Trouton and Pertwee and the 3 doctors that means that this has to become a staple.

333
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:15.059
I mean, that's it clearly what everything has been based on in every multi doctor gathering is those scenes from the 3 doctors and they are unbeatable.

334
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:21.059
Yeah, and arguably that's one of the things wrong with the 5 doctors is that there isn't enough doctors together.

335
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.819
Yes, I mean, that bit of pairs.

336
00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:31.259
Yeah, that bit at the end of the 2 doctors where the 2nd doctor turns to the 6th and says, I think space and time should be big enough for the 2 of us.

337
00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:32.220
Just.

338
00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:36.119
It is one of my favourite parts.

339
00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:37.559
No, no, no.

340
00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:41.519
The justice because he's just eaten a whole family pay area.

341
00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:42.180
Oh, okay, yeah.

342
00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:43.319
And all the rest of it at the restaurant.

343
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.400
I always took that as him looking at Colin saying, no, no, no, no, no, no.

344
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.380
In the chest, because he cuts his stomach.

345
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.799
Yeah, his stomach because he's eaten it all at Oscar Botchibi's restaurant.

346
00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:53.460
Yeah, yeah.

347
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:54.299
At Las Cadina.

348
00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:55.859
But also he does...

349
00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:58.319
He also does kind of look Colin up and down.

350
00:23:58.319 --> 00:23:58.859
Exactly.

351
00:23:58.920 --> 00:23:59.640
It's funny.

352
00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:02.279
I'll have to watch the Bluey. doesn't he?

353
00:24:02.339 --> 00:24:02.940
He does.

354
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:03.599
He does.

355
00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:04.740
He gives him a very side.

356
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:05.819
He gives him side eye.

357
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:10.500
Anyway, what don't you like about the repartee, how dare you?

358
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:12.599
It's Stephen Moffat.

359
00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:13.799
He's a sitcom writer.

360
00:24:13.859 --> 00:24:16.200
A very accomplished and skilful sitcom writer.

361
00:24:16.259 --> 00:24:17.099
I think it's fun.

362
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:24.180
I think it's really fun and I like the repartee between David Tennant and Matt Smith, but it doesn't quite hit the spot for me sometimes.

363
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:37.980
There are some funny and there are some charming moments, mostly in the performances, but I think it's a little bit purele with the whole sand shoes, chinny, skinny, I just, I just don't think it really holds a candle too.

364
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:42.539
So you're my replacement is a dandy and a cloud, which is the absolute height.

365
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.240
Yeah, that withering put down from the 1st doctor.

366
00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:47.400
I just I mean, I don't hate it.

367
00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:48.119
Don't get me wrong.

368
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:48.960
I do enjoy it.

369
00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:51.720
I just, I felt it wasn't quite clever enough, to be honest.

370
00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:58.319
It's interesting because I would agree that some of those, you know, little criticisms are a bit puerile, but because they're generally just thrown away, I don't think it matters.

371
00:24:58.380 --> 00:25:04.380
I think that's why it's, it works for me is because they're just, they're just included in a sentence rather than signposted too much.

372
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:07.259
I mean, I think it's kind of the tyranny of high expectations.

373
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:09.599
I expect Moffatt's dialogue to be so clever.

374
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:13.920
And I just didn't really find these kind of these traded barbs all that clever.

375
00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:17.279
Am I saying that he doesn't reach the heights of Bob Baker and Dave Martin?

376
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:17.940
I might be saying that.

377
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.240
But I think is script edited by Terrence Steve.

378
00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:21.779
Well, yes.

379
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:44.819
But I mean, is he keeping his powder dry for the big scene, which is in some ways the most important scene of the episode, which is the 3 doctors together in the tower, where a real proper critique starts to happen, where tenants doctor critiques Smith for not caring about what happened.

380
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.599
He can't remember any longer how many children were killed.

381
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:50.099
Is that how long it takes to forget?

382
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:51.180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

383
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:56.460
And then kind of Matt critiquing tenet for not moving on for not for dwelling on it.

384
00:25:56.579 --> 00:25:58.680
Yeah, there is a shift in tone there.

385
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:01.019
And that's a very good description to have.

386
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:02.160
Yeah, it absolutely is.

387
00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:08.220
And I like the fact that it shifts from the usual kind of, so you're my replacements dialogue to being about something more.

388
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:08.759
That's good.

389
00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:16.319
Because I think it's the 1st time the doctor has had a really serious event in his history that he can react to as a character.

390
00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:22.140
And so the 2 doctors who are there react differently and critique one another.

391
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:40.500
Whereas, you know, usually Doctor Who's just a whole bunch of stuff that happened and then we forget it at the end of episode 4 that get on with our lives. you know, this big event that's kind of distorted the program and weighed down on the character in a really big way is something that the 2 characters can have genuine differences about.

392
00:26:41.339 --> 00:26:44.279
One of the disappointments that I have with it.

393
00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:53.819
And this is, again, the, you know, the problem with high expectations is one of the joys of the multidoctor specials is always having a mix-up of a doctor and a companion.

394
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:58.859
You know, you have having Perry with Trouton for a bit in the 2 dogs, for instance.

395
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:03.000
And you kind of miss that here because Billy is not playing rose.

396
00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:04.500
Billy is playing the moment.

397
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:05.940
Yeah.

398
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.460
I don't think Rose fits in here.

399
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:10.259
Like, I just think that that's too much.

400
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:15.900
And I think that Moffatt makes the right decision to give her a different character to play.

401
00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:18.599
And it's the usual kind of Moffatt thing.

402
00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:23.579
It's a little bit like Idris not being able to tell the difference between the past and the future.

403
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:24.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

404
00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:26.579
And so, but and I think she's magnificent.

405
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.740
Oh, she's superb. she is excellent.

406
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.779
I don't deny any of that.

407
00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:40.200
It's just that it's the 11 year old in me watching the 5 doctors and then the 2 doctors a few years later and loving that sort of thing and just thinking totally with Simon.

408
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:43.859
Wouldn't it be great if you've had a scene with Rose and Matt Smith, you know?

409
00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:49.680
It just, I think Clara and Clara and Tennant, or Clara...

410
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.839
Yes, and that, so you get a little bit of it from that point of view.

411
00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:52.259
Yeah.

412
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:59.819
I mean, you kind of want Susan with the 5th doctor and like you said in the 2 doctors, Jamie with the 6th doctor and Perry with the 2nd doctor.

413
00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:02.160
It's a heartwarming fan glow.

414
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:05.160
I do think there's not enough room in this story for it.

415
00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:12.359
I'm not sure how David Tennant turning up with Martha or something would have impacted the special well, but...

416
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:17.339
Any companion would have been barely, they'd have had very, like, 4 lines and have been 3 scenes kind of thing.

417
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.200
Imagine if they've got Catherine Tape back.

418
00:28:19.259 --> 00:28:24.599
For example, we should have had more lines than that. whether they were in the script or not.

419
00:28:24.660 --> 00:28:31.380
I'd say, it would have been beautiful if in the last scene Martha had come to the door of the Tars and said, come on, doctor, where have you been?

420
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.779
Just a little cameo like that would have maybe go, oh.

421
00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:43.440
He is very restrained, isn't he?

422
00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:57.660
In that the two stories that he tells in this episode are fairly straightforward, and he has like nearly an hour and 20 minutes to play with, and that does give the story time to breathe.

423
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:04.019
I think it's not as frenetic as some other new series episodes have been.

424
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:10.500
And so it just gives us time to do that character exploration, which is so crucial for what this story is doing.

425
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:14.940
I mean, I think sometimes it gives it a little bit too much time to breathe.

426
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.259
I think those early scenes with David Tennant and Elizabeth go on forever.

427
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:21.420
But I've been self-indulgent.

428
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:21.960
Yes, they are.

429
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:29.579
But I mean, the opening scene where we do this that sort of giant set piece with the helicopter flying over London and suddenly London's back.

430
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:31.680
Yeah, you can't not...

431
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:33.660
Yeah, I mean that's a great way to start the show.

432
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:44.099
Oh, but we haven't spoken about the way the program really does start with the fabulous recreation of the heart and laughing credits in widescreen. wide screen stereo.

433
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.099
And when I say widescreen, I mean widescreen, not stretched.

434
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:48.059
Yes.

435
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:48.660
Yeah.

436
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:49.859
Yeah.

437
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:51.660
I mean, I love that thing too.

438
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.519
We're back at Coal Hill School as well.

439
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:55.980
Now, is that by any chance the same building as Remembrance?

440
00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.480
No, no, no, that's in that building is in Wales.

441
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:01.019
Is it right?

442
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:01.440
Okay.

443
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:06.059
I do love the name of the head of the board of governors.

444
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.480
Yes, it's...

445
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:16.740
I like the fact that the doctors put a convenient sign towards the scrapyard right up next to the school in case Susan loses her way in the fog.

446
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:20.819
But like, I mean, in an earthly child.

447
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.619
She is quite far away from the school.

448
00:30:22.740 --> 00:30:25.619
They have to get in a car and follow her.

449
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:27.000
No, it's cheating.

450
00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:27.599
It's terrible.

451
00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:28.740
Like whatever.

452
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:32.400
It's just that, like, they've taken the door off the hinges.

453
00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:34.980
Finally, it's just sort of lying there for no particular reason.

454
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:36.059
It is very odd.

455
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:46.200
But, I mean, that whole scene is terrifically funny and Matt and Jenna are wonderful together, like that, you know, will there be cocktail scene, the Florana speech.

456
00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:48.720
Do you notice the time of the clock?

457
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:49.559
No.

458
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:50.579
It's 516.

459
00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:54.839
Oh, right. which is when the 1st episode went out.

460
00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:55.440
Yeah, perfect.

461
00:30:55.500 --> 00:30:57.599
We're about to tune in for a brand new adventure.

462
00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:07.079
Yeah, but all that stuff with Queen Elizabeth in the Zygon is a bit tedious and I hate to say it.

463
00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:11.640
I mean, Zygons are something that I've wanted to have come back for the entirety of my family.

464
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:15.059
And is something that has been missing.

465
00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:23.759
And unfortunately, once again, it's like, I think the essence of what makes the Zygons, what made the Zygons great is lost.

466
00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:26.940
They just become this sort of thing.

467
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.039
Slavering, lurching.

468
00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:34.140
Rather than this claustrophobic, insidious, dangerous sort of thing.

469
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:36.059
They're just a comic, a bit of comedy, really.

470
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:37.440
They certainly become that.

471
00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:38.460
Dare I say it?

472
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:39.720
John Wood nutty enough.

473
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:41.940
Yeah, well I think that that's probably the thing.

474
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:48.299
I think that it's the fact that they don't get to be characters outside of being Zygon.

475
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.420
I want my zygons to say the polar ice caps must go.

476
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:54.240
I mean, the camera...

477
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.559
I don't want them to lurch from the shadows going, there.

478
00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:02.759
My family has served this county for 7 centuries, but that seems not to count these days.

479
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:05.940
Was that was that Broton or was that Tom doing Broton?

480
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.140
I do beg your pardon?

481
00:32:07.380 --> 00:32:09.599
They really missed a trick.

482
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:17.160
Not having one of the Zygons have a door slammed in their face, they could whisper, open this door.

483
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:30.059
But oh, the bit with Osgood and the inhaler is great, especially after they've had their memories wiped and, you know, the zygon one passes over the inhaler and then puts finger to the lips.

484
00:32:30.059 --> 00:32:31.319
That's so good.

485
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.720
That's such a great episode.

486
00:32:33.779 --> 00:32:35.039
It's kind of like...

487
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:36.359
That's actually the human.

488
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:38.880
Like she took her puffer back.

489
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:41.279
She hands it to the Zygon gosh.

490
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:45.119
No, but when the Zigon, but when the Zigon, I was good.

491
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:54.359
In the previous sequence, Zygon Osgood looks over her, she's, you know, on the floor crying and whatever, you know, in a state and says, oh, I hate having one with a defect.

492
00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:55.559
Can I have my inhaler, please?

493
00:32:55.619 --> 00:32:58.799
And so the Zigon would have the inhaler at that point.

494
00:32:58.859 --> 00:33:02.339
No, no, no, she pulls, she pulls the scarf and runs off.

495
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.299
She escapes the Zigon and takes her and takes her puffer back.

496
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:06.779
Sorry.

497
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:08.400
I watched it last time.

498
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:10.980
Okay, okay, no, okay, that's an important distinction though.

499
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:12.299
Well, it's nice though.

500
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:14.099
It kind of works nicely either way.

501
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.180
They know.

502
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:19.079
Like, they actually realise which one is the...

503
00:33:19.140 --> 00:33:24.960
Yes, their memory's been erased in safaris, which ones are Zigon, and which ones are humid, but not in that which one of them has the inhaler.

504
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:26.460
No, but so they've worked it out.

505
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:27.359
Yes, exactly.

506
00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:27.900
They worked it out.

507
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:28.380
Yes, yes.

508
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.339
The thing is that they both agree to it.

509
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:37.859
So they're not agreeing to this thing for space reasons because their mind has been white.

510
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:44.400
They're actually going along with this negotiation plan because they realise it's best for all of them.

511
00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:45.839
Yeah, it's very good.

512
00:33:45.900 --> 00:34:00.960
And it's such a great moment. such a great character moment as well because it makes you realise that actually there might be some kind of affinity between the Zigon and the human that it's copied, but there might be something going on there because they do share this little smile with each other and you think, I think they probably like each other.

513
00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:06.000
And I think that will be continued in the Zygon 2 parter that's coming up in future years.

514
00:34:06.059 --> 00:34:07.559
Which I think is extremely good.

515
00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:08.699
I have to say.

516
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:10.139
I mean, that looks good again.

517
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:13.139
That look is the basis of an entire two-parter.

518
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:14.280
Basically, yeah.

519
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.579
But her performance is just generally so good.

520
00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:19.260
She's wonderful.

521
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:28.739
It's just such a shame that we have such a fan pleasing thing as bringing the Saigons back, which I'm totally on board with, but then we lose what their essence is.

522
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:31.440
We lose what they could be any monster being brought back.

523
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:32.699
And I think that would be ice warriors.

524
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:39.719
Yeah, and I actually think that it's a waste in this 50th because there's too much else to do.

525
00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:44.400
And so you're not going to bring them back with the right amount of bang.

526
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:45.480
That's right.

527
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:50.460
And the reason that they're quite of slavering monsters is that they don't have anything particularly Zigon-esque to do.

528
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:51.300
Exactly.

529
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.940
There's nothing really for them to do, and that's the problem.

530
00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:56.039
It's a very one-dimensional bit of story.

531
00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:58.139
They are plot device.

532
00:34:58.199 --> 00:34:58.619
Exactly.

533
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:03.840
In fact, it's the story that's interrupted by the moment. effectively, yeah.

534
00:35:03.900 --> 00:35:12.239
So it's not an important story in itself and it's slightly weird that both doctors are involved in it from different ends as well.

535
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:13.079
Yeah, yeah.

536
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:20.159
But it is extremely thin, like not very much happens and so we don't get the opportunity to hear very much from the zygons.

537
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:27.539
There's that one that comes in and speaks to Queen Elizabeth with the whispering voice, but otherwise we don't get any of that.

538
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:29.699
And actually, I don't like the Queen Elizabeth.

539
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.280
I don't think you mean, she's no Cape Blanchard.

540
00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:35.099
You weren't a fan of Gavin and Stacy?

541
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:36.840
This is Stacy from Gavin and Stacy.

542
00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:37.440
I didn't watch that.

543
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.480
So she is... well there you go.

544
00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:43.260
See, being cast because you're someone is not a good decision.

545
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:44.579
Well, no, we don't know.

546
00:35:44.579 --> 00:35:45.179
Did you hear us?

547
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:45.900
She was cast.

548
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:46.320
What?

549
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:47.099
Yes, exactly.

550
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:48.000
Yes, is anyone?

551
00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:53.219
Like, I don't mind her, but...

552
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:53.940
Yeah, yeah.

553
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:58.619
I just think it's, it felt like it needed a star name and needed a, dare I say it?

554
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:03.900
Helen Mirren or someone like that to actually lift those scenes because it's someone like that playing her.

555
00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:06.119
But you're kind of suggesting that it isn't star name.

556
00:36:06.179 --> 00:36:10.260
No, but it needs a star name who's a star name because they're really good.

557
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.019
Yeah, as opposed to just being...

558
00:36:13.019 --> 00:36:14.699
She's a comedy.

559
00:36:14.699 --> 00:36:15.420
A comedy star.

560
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:16.139
Yeah, yeah.

561
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:19.559
She's a wellknown actress for television at this point.

562
00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:20.639
Yeah.

563
00:36:20.699 --> 00:36:22.380
So it's a reasonably big coup.

564
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:25.320
She is, I mean, she does get some pretty funny lines.

565
00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:29.940
I do like the, I may have had the body of a feeble woman.

566
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:30.780
Yeah, that's pretty good.

567
00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:33.780
I think, though, that's a pre-existing line.

568
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:34.199
I know.

569
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.079
Deploying it to involve Zygon.

570
00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:37.500
Yes.

571
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.840
The problem is when you have to set it to have a young Elizabeth.

572
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:49.380
Yeah, who are your choices for a famous gravitas?

573
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:51.059
Yeah. actress?

574
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.000
We've already seen that, hadn't we?

575
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.159
In Shakespeare code.

576
00:36:56.219 --> 00:37:00.900
And so this is kind of Moffatt delivering on a running gag that Russell has.

577
00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:09.480
So firstly, the Shakespeare code, we get Queen Elizabeth is angry at the doctor for something and we don't know what it is.

578
00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:15.000
Yeah, then in end of time, part one, we discover he's just had sex with her or something.

579
00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:18.840
And then we see the marriage finally.

580
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:21.780
And there are the references to Queen Elizabeth as well throughout the program.

581
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:28.739
I mean, apart from the fact that at the end of Curse of Pilladorn, they're going to dash off to the 1st part one of the chase.

582
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:40.320
No, but there's, but there isn't there, isn't there another reference to in, in a Christmas carol, maybe, about, um, queen, singers, people making it confused?

583
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:43.739
He does get married again in the Christmas carol to Marilyn.

584
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:44.280
Monroe.

585
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:44.820
Yes, yes.

586
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:49.260
And so we have seen that the doctor is married 3 times.

587
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:50.460
It's a river song.

588
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:51.539
He's a polygamist.

589
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.579
Well, you know they die.

590
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:58.139
Red song, Kameka, first.

591
00:37:58.139 --> 00:37:58.920
No, proposed.

592
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:01.079
That's a proposal.

593
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:02.400
Yeah, engage through it.

594
00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:04.019
He leaves her at the altar.

595
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:20.460
It's that thing about modern takes.

596
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:22.139
We were talking about the time lords before.

597
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.780
And don't get me wrong, I do like this episode.

598
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:32.940
I think it hits with what it set out to do, especially with the general public, but there's something about the modern takes in this episode, which don't quite work.

599
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:40.500
So we talked about the Zygons and how their reimagination doesn't really hit, but the time lords don't hit for me as well.

600
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:43.500
We talked about this on the end of time podcast that we did.

601
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.639
It's jettisoned everything that was interesting about the time lords.

602
00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:49.380
They're kind of their academic society.

603
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:51.179
So not very much then.

604
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:55.920
You should have seen Nathan's face just then.

605
00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:58.860
I mean, actually, that is the point.

606
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.179
The only person who ever made.

607
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:01.199
No arc of Infinity.

608
00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:08.699
The only person who ever made Time Lord's interesting was Bob Hose in the Deadly Assassin.

609
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:18.239
And it mystified me in the end of time, how Russell ejected all of those trappings about, you know, the academic structure of the society and the politics behind the scenes.

610
00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:20.159
And that was what made them interesting.

611
00:39:20.219 --> 00:39:24.840
They just turned out to be ranting cod Shakespearean characters in their time.

612
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:27.539
And Moffat takes that and runs with it here.

613
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.059
And so those scenes with the time Lords are so uninteresting.

614
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.099
Yeah, it's lazy writing again, I think.

615
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:33.719
Well, not so much lazy.

616
00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:34.679
I'm just not sure.

617
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:39.780
Again, maybe he didn't have the time or the drafts to kind of do anything interesting with those.

618
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:41.159
It's just slightly disappointing.

619
00:39:41.219 --> 00:39:47.039
Like Moffat does jettison the Russell idea that the time lords are massively evil and are going to kill everyone.

620
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:49.260
That slightly needed to be destroyed.

621
00:39:49.320 --> 00:40:04.980
And that puts a different moral kind of cast on the decision to blow them up, you know, the doctor blew up the timelines because he knew that what they were planning was to basically kill everything and become immortal aliens.

622
00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:07.139
Is that the Russell reason why he did it?

623
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:08.159
Or is it...

624
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:17.340
Because, I mean, for me, at least in this, the reason why the war doctor is going to do it is that there is no way to stop the violence, to stop the collateral damage.

625
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:23.400
The only way to stop the collateral damage of all these other planets being affected is to basically destroy the dogs and the time lords.

626
00:40:23.460 --> 00:40:23.940
Yeah.

627
00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:27.840
There's that line that we were talking about now Night to the Doctor podcast.

628
00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.840
She wanted to see the universe.

629
00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:32.639
Yeah, she didn't miss much.

630
00:40:32.699 --> 00:40:37.320
It's very nearly over, is what Oheila says in response to that.

631
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.659
And so it does threaten everywhere.

632
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:40.800
So that's right.

633
00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:56.820
But end of time reveals an extra bit of information that the timelords are worse than the Daleks, because what they're planning is sort of ascension where everything else is destroyed and they become sort of disembodied rulers of what's left.

634
00:40:56.880 --> 00:40:59.219
So killing them was to stop that.

635
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:08.039
But there is space, there is space in this for both of those interpretations because it is the High Council, not all of the High Council.

636
00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:11.340
It's basically Rastalon, like wanting to do this.

637
00:41:11.340 --> 00:41:15.840
The, you know, these are the time lords who have been living this war who appear.

638
00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:16.860
Yeah, they're downstairs.

639
00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:19.380
Yeah, like he's upstairs, they're downstairs.

640
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:25.019
And then there's, you know, the gala friends in the street who don't have a choice in the matter either.

641
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:32.639
Yeah, so in a way, it's entirely consistent with what we know about the time wards previously and that there's always been a few bad actors.

642
00:41:32.699 --> 00:41:34.619
Well, in many ways.

643
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.559
There's always been a few bad actors within their society.

644
00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:43.679
It's just for the time lords to be interesting.

645
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:45.840
They need to be whimsical in some ways.

646
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:51.420
There needs to be a spandrel. and an Engian and a Hill Red who can't get his act together.

647
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:56.400
Whereas these are just Shakespearean characters espousing at each other.

648
00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:01.199
And that's exactly what Russell wanted to avoid when he brought the show back by getting rid of the timelords.

649
00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:03.960
And then he fell straight into the trap in the end of time.

650
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.840
And again, I just wish we'd had something more interesting here.

651
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:07.380
Yes.

652
00:42:07.380 --> 00:42:11.940
I just wouldn't have wanted the time loss to get much more attention than they get here.

653
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:13.260
I mean, that is a point.

654
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:24.420
No, but I think that's the reason why we've ended up with the kind of time launch that we have is because to do them properly would become this incredibly self-indulgent story about them.

655
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:33.840
Yes, and then it's just, and I think they're trying to keep them a little bit mysterious in that, well, let's not talk too much about them so that, you know, we don't categorise them too much.

656
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:37.380
Let's let Big Finish do that for Exactly. box sets.

657
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:42.599
Yes, and they are less aggravating than they are in the end of time where you have Timothy Dalton doing his best.

658
00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:43.920
I know everyone else loves those.

659
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:48.719
And you have, yes, mysterious woman covering her eyes and the scribbling woman and everything.

660
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:50.219
You think, what is this that I'm watching?

661
00:42:50.280 --> 00:43:03.599
But the time lords in the original series are criticised by the doctor and appear as past their prime, they're an ancient society which doesn't do anything.

662
00:43:03.659 --> 00:43:08.219
They just sit around, their society is calcifying.

663
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:09.719
Everything's kind of grinding to a halt.

664
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:12.119
Like, it's like the heat death of the universe kind of thing.

665
00:43:12.179 --> 00:43:19.320
Whereas the modern series is, you know, Russell and so on has made them villains, properly villains, like as a group.

666
00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:28.559
Regardless of what you're saying about the upstairs or the downstairs, one's doing different things. trying to make them more malevolent. kind of made them all powerful rather than just omnipotent.

667
00:43:28.619 --> 00:43:32.039
Yeah, and I think that was, I mean, that's a decision.

668
00:43:32.099 --> 00:43:34.380
It's not a decision I particularly liked.

669
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:42.780
I'd rather than be kind of the original series version, even when less than ideally executed in something like Ark of Infinity.

670
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:53.880
I just don't think there is a definitive original series version because every time they appear, perhaps, perhaps less so after the deadly assassin, they're different.

671
00:43:53.880 --> 00:44:00.659
And certainly the time lords that you see at the end of the war games are absolutely not the time lords you see in the deadly assassin.

672
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:02.280
100%.

673
00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:04.559
So you have War Games 3 doctors time laws.

674
00:44:04.619 --> 00:44:07.019
Don't forget the 1st 2 minutes of colony in space.

675
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:10.500
Well, that's kind of lumped into the 3D purchase.

676
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:12.840
But you have those time lords.

677
00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:14.760
And then you have the deadly assassin on.

678
00:44:14.820 --> 00:44:18.659
And I think the deadly assassin on ones are, broadly speaking, all the same.

679
00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:21.239
It's just that some are done much better.

680
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:21.659
Right.

681
00:44:21.659 --> 00:44:24.780
Yeah, some have Bob Holmes rising them and some have Johnny Burn rice.

682
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:25.500
Yeah exactly.

683
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:27.780
Or, or, you know, Pip and Jane.

684
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:28.559
Ex, for example.

685
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:37.380
But even information of time for all its failings is still better realisation of time lord society.

686
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:45.119
Yeah, Invasion of Time takes the deadly assassin and runs with Invasion of Time has that version of Barusa, who is possibly the single one. we've ever seen.

687
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:47.820
Is Invasion of Time of David Agnew script.

688
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:48.420
It is.

689
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:49.260
I think it is.

690
00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:51.300
Graham Williams.

691
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:52.079
Graham Williams.

692
00:44:52.380 --> 00:44:52.559
Yeah.

693
00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:55.320
Anyway, the point being that they're rubbish.

694
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:57.840
They are indeed.

695
00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:00.539
They're slightly less rubbish than the end of time, but they're still...

696
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:01.199
They're not interesting.

697
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:03.840
They're just a plot device to create this massive war, right?

698
00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:07.500
I think that his little friend.

699
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:14.519
Like, you know, there's the main general who will later on be shot by Peter Capaldi.

700
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:16.139
With that personally named Ken Bones.

701
00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:22.320
Ken Bones will turn into Tenaya Miller in one of the triumphs of frame for generation.

702
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:25.260
And then his little friend has that fabulous.

703
00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:28.139
I love the collar. it looks really great.

704
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:32.579
But yeah, I mean, they're an aesthetic thing and we have as little of them as we can get away with.

705
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:46.019
And so the, when we have the conundrum that they're having in London, where Kate is wondering whether she needs to blow up, or seriously considering blowing up London, killing 1000000s of people, because that's better than the alternative.

706
00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:52.260
I find that parallel, it's all a bit kind of forced and obvious that we're going to have these 2 decisions.

707
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:53.699
Like the doctor's having to make this decision.

708
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:57.360
The war doctor's having to make this decision and Kate's having to make this decision. the same decision, really.

709
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.599
Moffatt lampshades that he says.

710
00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:07.739
There's a line from the war doctor, which is the bad wolf girl, she showed me exactly the future I needed to see.

711
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:13.079
She manipulated all 3 of them to create this story.

712
00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:16.860
Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not... doesn't make it good, though.

713
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:32.639
It doesn't work because the war doctor's takeaway from that conversation is that in future his regret for what he's done will inspire him to save many, many other people, including Kate and the Zygons here.

714
00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:34.079
And so he goes back.

715
00:46:34.139 --> 00:46:36.300
And so do the other 2 doctors.

716
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:38.639
They go back determined to press the button.

717
00:46:38.699 --> 00:46:39.179
Yes.

718
00:46:39.179 --> 00:46:58.139
And the real thing that the doctor needed to see was the thing in the tower where the war doctor makes the decision to set the extruder over in motion, and then we have 400 years in the room together, and we can solve the problem in that time, and that's how Matt solves the problem.

719
00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:01.019
Stephen always foreshadows.

720
00:47:01.019 --> 00:47:02.280
Yeah.

721
00:47:02.340 --> 00:47:04.320
And he usually does it as a gag, which is good.

722
00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:05.639
Well, that's right. which is what we get here.

723
00:47:05.699 --> 00:47:11.519
We get we get Matt Smith saying, oh, we're so clever and Clara Burst.

724
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:14.159
Yes, there is a bunch line.

725
00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:19.019
But that's fantastic. setting that up as that gag in otherwise.

726
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:20.400
Yeah, the software is the same.

727
00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:21.119
The face has changed.

728
00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:25.320
Yeah, the face. face has changed in the 1st line and the face has changed. yeah.

729
00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:31.679
And then, and then having that payoff at the end, like that's fantastic foreshadowing.

730
00:47:31.739 --> 00:47:33.599
It's like that's the way to do foreshadowing.

731
00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:41.460
I just find it hard to believe that, you know, in 400 years he hasn't had to upgrade the OS, which has meant that all current operations have had to start again.

732
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.960
We're digging down here.

733
00:47:43.139 --> 00:47:48.119
Yeah, because he does give that screwdriver away to River Song, doesn't he?

734
00:47:48.179 --> 00:47:52.800
And he also burns up the screwdriver in 11th hour and new one pops out of the car.

735
00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:54.719
It's all in cloud.

736
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:57.179
Chartist backs it off.

737
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:01.920
But, you know, Stephen's writing always pays off and it's always clever.

738
00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:09.780
And I think we've been sadly lacking in scripts of that easy sophistication since you left the show, watching this.

739
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:15.840
Just remind me of the fact that even though, you know, I do think it's a little bit obvious in places, he always pays you off as the viewer.

740
00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:17.820
Yes, you can't complain.

741
00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:20.159
At the end of the day, I can pick faults with it.

742
00:48:20.219 --> 00:48:22.920
I can pick a fair number of faults with it.

743
00:48:22.980 --> 00:48:27.719
For me, just my personal sort of things, but at the end of the day, I still really like it.

744
00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:28.559
I still enjoy it.

745
00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:31.199
And that's because, and that is, as you say, down to Stephen Morphin.

746
00:48:31.260 --> 00:48:32.940
It's always a baseline of quality.

747
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:39.420
You know, some things he will pull off better than other things, but there's never anything which lets you down and makes you think, well, that was pretty tame.

748
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:54.300
In fact, I think that what it does is exactly what it has to do, given that it's a celebration of 50 years and it's being watched by lots of people, is you have a story about what actually constitutes the doctor's heroism.

749
00:48:54.360 --> 00:48:57.659
Like, what does it mean to be a doctor?

750
00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:06.719
And so, you know, sometimes in the in the 80s, they would put the doctor in a position where he couldn't do anything or there was no good choice or something like that.

751
00:49:06.780 --> 00:49:08.219
There should have been another way.

752
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:09.000
Yeah, yeah.

753
00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:10.980
And that's always a writing decision.

754
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:13.920
I mean, you're making up the situations, the doctor's in.

755
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:17.219
You don't have to put him in a situation where he has no choice.

756
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:24.239
And I think the point that Moffatt's making is that our doctor just would never have done that.

757
00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:27.480
You could never imagine a Doctor Who story.

758
00:49:27.539 --> 00:49:49.739
For instance, that depicted the doctor pushing the button and wiping out all of Gallifray, that would just be intolerable, who would want to watch that, because what the doctor has to do is be clever and outwit his enemies and force them to fall into their own traps and all of that sort of thing, that speech, the never cruel and cowardly speech from the human nature novel.

759
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:51.659
And so making the centre.

760
00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:56.099
Actually, it's not from the human nature. from the 1976 edition of the making of Doctor Who.

761
00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:56.820
Oh, really?

762
00:49:57.420 --> 00:50:04.619
You see, this is the nods to the past in this episode are heartwarming and brilliant. you've redecorated.

763
00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:08.880
All those bits, you know, the bits you expect, the bits that you get, it's wonderful.

764
00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:16.980
But what really hits home for me is that wonderfully directed scene in the barn where it all goes to black.

765
00:50:17.099 --> 00:50:21.000
And so you see the doctors against black while they're delivering these lines.

766
00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:28.739
And they're quoting Terence Sticks from the making of Doctor Who, never cruel or cowardly, always fights evil, is always on the side of good.

767
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:30.599
The wheezing and the groaning.

768
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:33.659
Never give up, never give in.

769
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:35.099
That's all Terence sticks.

770
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:38.579
That's all him explaining the heart of Doctor Who.

771
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:40.440
And so Moffat references that.

772
00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:45.659
And that's his true throwback to the original series and what Doctor 2 is about.

773
00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:53.880
The only thing I was a bit upset about was that we had the Zygons and not say the Fomasi, because then you would have had that other Terence Sticks classic.

774
00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:56.219
The colour of monsters is green.

775
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:03.539
The wheeze and groaning sound speech is fantastic as well, isn't it?

776
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:09.480
Because it's the moment saying that that sound herald's salvation.

777
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:14.219
And now the doctor gets to experience what it's like to hear that sound.

778
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:29.460
And again, Nick Curran is fantastic because Billy is out of focus in the background of that shot and the shot is centred around John Hurt's ear, which is hearing that sound suddenly appear, only this time it's the doctor coming to save himself.

779
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:32.099
Yeah, I mean, it's poetic.

780
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:32.940
It's really great.

781
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:40.920
And while we're just talking about the moment and John Hertz doctor, that entire scene where he 1st goes into the barn and encounters her.

782
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:45.840
It's a long, long scene with just the 2 of them, and it may be the best scene in the entire episode.

783
00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:46.860
It's so good.

784
00:51:47.579 --> 00:51:49.199
I love that.

785
00:51:49.260 --> 00:51:50.579
Why can't it be 2 things?

786
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:53.039
It's not a chair.

787
00:51:54.420 --> 00:51:56.280
That's really clever.

788
00:51:56.340 --> 00:51:57.059
Yeah, yeah.

789
00:51:57.719 --> 00:52:01.980
But in a way, Billy Piper is playing a companion in this.

790
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:02.639
She is playing...

791
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:03.300
Yeah.

792
00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:04.980
Like the war doctor's companion.

793
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:05.280
Yeah.

794
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.119
Oh, yes.

795
00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:06.719
No, absolutely.

796
00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:11.460
Oh, that line about being stuck between a girl and a box is pretty gross.

797
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.019
Don't worry about me online.

798
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.900
It's so effortlessly clever.

799
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:17.639
That's Stephen Moffat just delivering.

800
00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:18.179
Yeah.

801
00:52:18.179 --> 00:52:20.280
Is that is she wearing thaw trousers?

802
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:21.960
I don't know what she's wearing.

803
00:52:22.019 --> 00:52:24.659
She's wearing something that's very distressed anyway.

804
00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:27.059
It's his quick thull cosplay.

805
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.760
She didn't have scissors.

806
00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:30.960
She just used her keys.

807
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:37.559
It's the pair that Barbara took with her at the end of the Darwix. found at the back of a wardrobe in the car, in the tanks.

808
00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:58.559
The problem is that, and I think Peter touched on this earlier with, like, the weight of expectations, and something that's gonna be the 50th anniversary special is gonna have a weight of expectations on it, which are going to be impossible to be met.

809
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:07.500
And you always end up with, whether it's Doctor Who, whatever it is, something that I often find is enjoyable but slightly unsatisfying.

810
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:14.760
The best episodes and stories of Doctor Who that we remember are not the 35 doctors and this.

811
00:53:14.820 --> 00:53:19.739
Funnily enough, for me, the 2 doctors is the best of the multidoctor stories by like years.

812
00:53:19.860 --> 00:53:23.760
I agree because it's just a story which has 2 doctors in it.

813
00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:30.719
Rather than it being like this existential crisis in the life of the doctor, all of Gallifray or of the universe, whatever it happens to be.

814
00:53:30.780 --> 00:53:31.679
It's not a tentpole story.

815
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:32.340
Exactly.

816
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:38.219
And so many of the best stories that we love aren't that, you know, they're just a story.

817
00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:41.099
Blink is just an episode.

818
00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:46.440
And yet it's probably one of the best things that the modern program has produced.

819
00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:48.780
Pyramids of Mars is just a story.

820
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:52.380
But it's probably one of the best stories ever produced of the classic series.

821
00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:54.300
For episode four, obviously.

822
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:58.139
Scratch pyramids are mad.

823
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.960
Let's put in, let's put in scenes of Dame.

824
00:54:01.019 --> 00:54:02.519
I knew you were going to say seats.

825
00:54:02.579 --> 00:54:04.079
Yeah, because you know, I love it.

826
00:54:04.139 --> 00:54:06.360
Green Death, despite the Kramer key.

827
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:06.900
You know what I mean?

828
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:11.639
So, but the point being that it doesn't have to be about the end of the universe for it to be the best thing and everything.

829
00:54:11.699 --> 00:54:19.019
The problem with these sorts of stories is that the stakes are too big that I just can't quite get involved in it in the same way.

830
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:25.619
Yeah, I guess for me, though, this is an extra thing that we got to have, you know, we had a normal season.

831
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:26.880
We have a Christmas special.

832
00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:32.340
We have this big extra thing celebrating the program in a really public way that involves everyone.

833
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:44.880
So I do think it's appropriate to have Daleks in it. you know, have it be about the doctor and and also to kind of reorient the show to kind of bring the classic series back into the fold.

834
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:47.639
I completely understand how you end up with this.

835
00:54:47.699 --> 00:54:52.500
I'm just saying that it's never going to be good enough for me is the problem. is what I'm trying to say. never going to be good enough.

836
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:58.619
I would argue actually of the multi-doctor stories that are celebrations.

837
00:54:58.619 --> 00:54:59.940
This is the best.

838
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.380
Yeah, I think so too.

839
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:05.400
I'll give it that, given that I think the 3 doctors is pretty bad.

840
00:55:06.179 --> 00:55:07.980
Don't get me wrong.

841
00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:09.059
Love the 5 doctors.

842
00:55:09.059 --> 00:55:12.480
And love the 5 doctors for emotional reasons rather than rational reasons.

843
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:23.579
But in terms of script acting special effects, the meaning of it in the mythology of the show, this is this is actually better than those others.

844
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:26.159
It's actually a thing at the time, though, isn't it?

845
00:55:26.219 --> 00:55:33.119
Because this one is very much of its time in terms of how television's made and what things are alike.

846
00:55:33.179 --> 00:55:35.760
The 5 doctors is also very much of its time.

847
00:55:35.820 --> 00:55:37.260
It's so much more British.

848
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:45.300
It's so much more of a, it's this restrained celebration where we're all going to walk about the place and you know, and that's about all what happened.

849
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:46.079
You know what I mean?

850
00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:49.679
Get together for get together for a bit of a party.

851
00:55:49.739 --> 00:55:51.239
Get together for a bit of a party.

852
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:54.840
But not too much of a party. you know, not, you know, restrain ourselves.

853
00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:56.519
Just some light bondage.

854
00:55:56.639 --> 00:56:00.840
Just those little things that Richard Herndle is chewing on.

855
00:56:00.900 --> 00:56:01.679
Yes, exactly.

856
00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:05.400
It's like them having tea and cake in the console room with the 5 doctors.

857
00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:07.739
That's the celebration for the 5 doctors.

858
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:08.159
You what I mean?

859
00:56:08.219 --> 00:56:10.440
So I agree with you. with a cup of tea.

860
00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:18.719
And in fact, Nick Curran, as we, you know, the whole thing sort of ends and then we just get Nick Curran gives us a shot of someone putting sugar into a cup of tea.

861
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:21.480
I just think it's fantastic.

862
00:56:21.539 --> 00:56:29.039
So on the Tom thing at the end, which is just delicious and wonderful and incredible.

863
00:56:29.099 --> 00:56:30.239
Goosebumps.

864
00:56:30.300 --> 00:56:31.980
But can I say the word but?

865
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:33.119
Yeah, that's good.

866
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:36.659
I regret the line.

867
00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:40.019
Yeah, revisiting the old favourites or just the old favourites.

868
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:42.900
I think that is too obvious.

869
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:44.159
Yes, everything though.

870
00:56:44.219 --> 00:56:45.719
Yes, I guess I know.

871
00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:49.199
But this is the, I had this argument with Brian afterwards and he was on your side.

872
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:53.639
Because basically my point was, you don't need to say that.

873
00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:55.079
The fact that he is there.

874
00:56:55.139 --> 00:56:58.980
Yes, we all know he's the most beloved doctor of class.

875
00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:01.860
Of course he is. only revisiting the ones who are any good.

876
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:04.800
Revisiting the old favourite.

877
00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:07.199
Yes, but you don't need to say that.

878
00:57:07.260 --> 00:57:09.900
I think basically his presence there is enough.

879
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:10.679
Show don't tell.

880
00:57:10.739 --> 00:57:17.219
I just think that it overstepped the mark and I'm not saying this because, you know, Colin got upset about the fact that Tom was in it and he wasn't.

881
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:18.420
Storm down screening.

882
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:22.079
And, you know, that's that's by the bye.

883
00:57:22.139 --> 00:57:28.139
But I just think showing that little modicum of restraint would have made it more elegant.

884
00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:31.920
I know what you're saying, but I think that line is the modicum of restraining.

885
00:57:31.980 --> 00:57:32.579
I think.

886
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:38.039
I think it goes right up to what it could have said, which would have been a bit unsafely and then doesn't.

887
00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:40.619
But no, that line's more a strength than who knows?

888
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:41.699
Who knows?

889
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.880
Oh, I love it. again, fantastic.

890
00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:49.380
No, but that's, that's not the, there's kind of restraint, the lack of restraint that I'm talking about.

891
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:50.940
Oh, no. yeah.

892
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:52.559
I mean, I don't think it's a problem.

893
00:57:52.619 --> 00:57:59.579
I think we can overlay what we know about the fact that, you know, maybe one or 2 of the other doctors were a bit upset that they didn't get a look in.

894
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:02.039
We're not sure, but maybe we maybe we do know that.

895
00:58:02.099 --> 00:58:04.739
But I think you do know that because they said that the following day.

896
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:05.400
Okay.

897
00:58:06.059 --> 00:58:08.400
You were at that convention.

898
00:58:08.460 --> 00:58:13.019
Yes, we were at that event and Colin sabotaging my efforts at sidestepping in.

899
00:58:13.019 --> 00:58:14.579
Not a happy little legend, Mike.

900
00:58:14.579 --> 00:58:15.239
Colin was...

901
00:58:15.300 --> 00:58:16.139
Yeah, I know, I know.

902
00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:16.800
I don't blame him.

903
00:58:16.860 --> 00:58:18.059
And it wasn't because he wasn't in it.

904
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:20.460
It was, I think, because of the way it's treated.

905
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:37.739
There's just a lack of a realistic appraisal of what the history of the show has been like, that Tom was the doctor at the time when it was so popular and so important and he is spectacular.

906
00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:39.360
Like, he's given...

907
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:40.380
I appreciate all that.

908
00:58:40.440 --> 00:58:41.400
It's so good.

909
00:58:41.460 --> 00:58:43.199
But the other thing is, this...

910
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:44.760
And so he's the logical one to have in the special.

911
00:58:44.820 --> 00:58:45.599
Exactly, of course.

912
00:58:45.659 --> 00:58:46.440
I'm not saying that's right.

913
00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:47.159
No, no, no, no.

914
00:58:47.219 --> 00:58:53.159
But this this week, every living doctor is involved in something.

915
00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:53.760
Yes.

916
00:58:53.760 --> 00:59:00.420
And the five-ish doctor's reboot isn't a bit of a femmer, a bit of fluff or something that doesn't matter.

917
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:02.340
It's spectacularly gross.

918
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:03.599
It's imperb.

919
00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:04.619
It's far better than this.

920
00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:09.900
Yeah, it's a it's a world scripted comedy directed by Peter Davidson.

921
00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:12.059
Like, you know, like they were involved.

922
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:16.440
No, no, I get what you're saying, and I get why Colin was upset.

923
00:59:16.860 --> 00:59:35.579
Davidson on the Sunday said when everyone was saying how brilliant the five-ish doctor's reboot was, and he said, and look, one of the questions was basically, and innocently put, was there anyone that you wanted to be in it, that said no, and he's Davidson said, yes, there was one person.

924
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:37.079
So that was Tom.

925
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:37.679
And that was Tom, right?

926
00:59:37.739 --> 00:59:38.519
We assume.

927
00:59:38.579 --> 00:59:39.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

928
00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:42.000
And that's when I goes back to what I'm saying before.

929
00:59:42.059 --> 00:59:47.699
It's just unfortunate that the greatest living doctor is that person.

930
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:51.119
It behaves like that. a bit of a dick about it.

931
00:59:51.179 --> 00:59:55.559
Still, even despite all of the all of the years of soul searching he's done.

932
00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:56.880
Building bridges.

933
00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:58.679
Building bridges back inside.

934
00:59:58.739 --> 01:00:03.960
It seems like that that's just, it's just, the bridge was about to be rebuilt and it was just demolished in one line.

935
01:00:04.019 --> 01:00:09.300
Perhaps he's just aware that the general public holds him in far gracier esteem than any other living doctor.

936
01:00:09.420 --> 01:00:11.340
And show more modesty about it.

937
01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:13.619
I'm not saying that that is a good thing.

938
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:17.039
I'm not saying that he shouldn't be more open about.

939
01:00:17.099 --> 01:00:21.420
I'm just saying that maybe we can't lay that interpretation of that line at his door.

940
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:24.059
Oh, okay, I'm not laying it at his door. certainly not.

941
01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:26.219
Sorry, this conversation has gone in a different direction.

942
01:00:26.280 --> 01:00:32.699
I'm just talking about the, there is a scriptwriter who is aware of all of this.

943
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:40.800
That scriptwriter, that showrunner is completely aware that all this exists and yet that line, for some reason you couldn't stop himself putting that line in.

944
01:00:40.980 --> 01:00:42.719
I can understand that.

945
01:00:42.780 --> 01:00:49.079
I don't care about the behind the scenes politics and cares more about the fact that the audience is watching it and going, that's my doctor.

946
01:00:49.139 --> 01:00:50.340
That's the old fashion.

947
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.139
Yeah, I'm not saying it because of the behind the scenes politics.

948
01:00:52.199 --> 01:01:01.500
I'm just using that as an illustration as to why it's just more elegant to not have had this that one line, just that one half line. not even a full line.

949
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:19.199
I mean, as with this entire special, the entire thing is juggling act, there are so many things which Moffat had to bring together and put in and decide not to put in and focus on and not focus on and still tell a coherent story about the doctor and about the series and he actually pulls it off.

950
01:01:19.260 --> 01:01:22.619
And I think that is why it's such a success.

951
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:31.440
It may not be a success on every level, and in every scene, and there's certainly things which I don't think land, as I've talked about, but you can't take away from Moth at what he achieved.

952
01:01:31.500 --> 01:01:32.280
It's something incredible.

953
01:01:53.340 --> 01:01:56.820
Well, Lily, sir, that's all we have time for for now.

954
01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:08.219
We'll be back in a couple of days to discuss the real 50th anniversary special, as Peter Davidson, Colin Baker, and Sylvester McCoy joined forces in the 5 ish doctors reboot.

955
01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:10.079
What about Paul McGann?

956
01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:12.000
He doesn't count.

957
01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:34.079
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

958
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:39.420
Until next time, may you never step in anything unimportant.

959
01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:41.039
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

960
01:02:41.099 --> 01:02:41.880
Good night.

961
01:02:41.940 --> 01:02:42.539
Bye bye.

962
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:43.260
Good night.

963
01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:52.860
That was Flightthrough Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Moore, and James Selwood.

964
01:02:52.920 --> 01:02:55.079
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lan.

965
01:02:55.139 --> 01:03:01.679
This episode, it's No Arc of Infinity, was recorded on the 24th of July 2022 and released on the 23rd of November.

966
01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:19.500
If you just picked up your podcatcher to listen to the latest episode of FTE, you'll be delighted to learn that you just missed the 1st of our 2 episodes on the day of the doctor, episode 248, the glue that holds everything together.

967
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:23.579
So have a listen to that now, and we'll see you back here on Sunday.

968
01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:24.780
Bye for now.

969
01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:34.079
That's the end of the episode.

970
01:03:34.199 --> 01:03:36.840
No, I didn't want to end the episode with a soliloquy.

971
01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:39.059
Oh, no, I think it's a good speed.

972
01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:39.840
That's a good ending.

973
01:03:39.900 --> 01:03:40.500
That's a ending.

974
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:41.940
Because, I mean, that is it, isn't it?

975
01:03:42.059 --> 01:03:43.500
Yeah, there'll be a tag or whatever.

976
01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:46.260
We didn't even talk about listening to us right now.

977
01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:53.880
The tag can be that fight over which Osgood is this like...

978
01:03:53.880 --> 01:04:00.480
Yes, because we didn't even talk about the very best thing in the episode.

979
01:04:00.539 --> 01:04:01.199
What's that?

980
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:02.880
Sarah Kingdom and Mike Yates.

981
01:04:02.940 --> 01:04:04.440
We talked about it this morning.

982
01:04:04.500 --> 01:04:05.099
What?

983
01:04:05.219 --> 01:04:09.960
So thinking of it on the paranoia board in the black archive.

984
01:04:10.019 --> 01:04:12.480
There's a photograph of Mike Yates.

985
01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:13.380
Oh, with Sarah Kingdom.

986
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:14.340
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

987
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:16.019
But we did talk about that this morning.

988
01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:17.219
I want to see more.

989
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:19.440
I want to see like, you know, Vicky and Kquillian.

990
01:04:21.059 --> 01:04:23.099
No, but that's the point.

991
01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:24.420
The point is it's people who didn't meet together.

992
01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:25.920
But how does it work?

993
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:26.940
I got that wrong.

994
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:28.500
I want to see more of that.

995
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:30.480
I want to see, say, Vicky and Chameleon.

996
01:04:31.380 --> 01:04:33.719
Chameleon is on that ball.

997
01:04:33.780 --> 01:04:34.980
Yeah, comedians on the board.

998
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:35.940
No Vicky.

999
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:37.380
No. no Katarina.

1000
01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:39.900
I can just imagine the...

1001
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:40.800
What about Dodo?

1002
01:04:40.860 --> 01:04:43.380
Well, Dodo is in the after party.

1003
01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:48.539
So she does actually get to turn up and participate in the in the week celebration.

1004
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:49.380
That was a mess.

1005
01:04:49.500 --> 01:04:50.820
I finally...

1006
01:04:50.820 --> 01:04:51.599
That was embarrassing.

1007
01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:54.840
When are we doing the after party, we went live.

1008
01:04:54.900 --> 01:04:56.699
We're not even doing that.

1009
01:04:56.699 --> 01:04:57.900
Was it embarrassing?

1010
01:04:57.960 --> 01:04:58.980
It was embarrassing.

1011
01:04:59.039 --> 01:05:00.539
Partly because I think Have you never seen it?

1012
01:05:00.780 --> 01:05:01.199
No, no.

1013
01:05:01.260 --> 01:05:03.059
It's absolutely terrible.

1014
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:04.079
They assemble.

1015
01:05:04.139 --> 01:05:11.099
Virtually, every main star from Classic Doc 2, aside from the doctors, they get virtually everybody in.

1016
01:05:11.159 --> 01:05:13.380
And then they completely waste it.

1017
01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:18.480
They sit them around tables and every so often throw them and go, did you enjoy being in Doctor Who?

1018
01:05:18.539 --> 01:05:19.019
Yes.

1019
01:05:19.079 --> 01:05:20.940
And then they throw, you think, oh, my God.

1020
01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:22.559
And all of a sudden, it's poorly done.

1021
01:05:22.619 --> 01:05:26.820
They're trying to do what they sort of chat chase now where they're all on irregularly shaped sofas.

1022
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.400
No one looks like this eating particularly comfortably.

1023
01:05:29.460 --> 01:05:38.760
And they've all, they've all got their shirts and everything are all kind of blowing out and showing that they're less, they're less nice sides, unflatteringly.

1024
01:05:38.820 --> 01:05:40.920
It was just, but it was also, yeah, you're right.

1025
01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:42.719
They didn't ask anyone anything at all.

1026
01:05:42.780 --> 01:05:46.320
And they're all kind of sitting there a bit shell shocked so that this thing had just been off.

1027
01:05:46.380 --> 01:05:52.679
It actually felt like a real mark of disrespect to the original show, which the rest of the anniversary week is absolutely not.

1028
01:05:52.739 --> 01:05:54.059
Yes, absolutely not.

1029
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:55.860
Yeah, like they were thrown away.

1030
01:05:55.920 --> 01:05:57.179
Yeah, it was really terrible.

1031
01:05:57.239 --> 01:06:00.780
We sat there watching it in a group and about 10 minutes in we're going, oh, dear.

1032
01:06:00.900 --> 01:06:01.980
Yeah, we didn't...

1033
01:06:01.980 --> 01:06:03.300
And that's when we turned everyone off.

1034
01:06:03.300 --> 01:06:03.960
Switch it off.

1035
01:06:04.019 --> 01:06:05.039
Yeah, so we cheered off.

1036
01:06:05.099 --> 01:06:05.639
Yes.

1037
01:06:08.699 --> 01:06:10.019
And cut it.

1038
01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:11.039
Now.

1039
01:06:14.099 --> 01:06:17.760
I'm sure there was a fanboy in the audience doing that as well.

1040
01:06:17.820 --> 01:06:28.139
Well, the, um, in that, in that thing too, who's the blonde hottie, um, Peter Davidson. gay boy. from A, A, from Rise of the Cyber Age of Steel.

1041
01:06:28.199 --> 01:06:29.159
Oh, yeah, Jake.

1042
01:06:29.219 --> 01:06:29.880
Jake.

1043
01:06:29.940 --> 01:06:35.460
He was then and he was apparently so happy to have been included as a kind of a pseudo-companion.

1044
01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:37.500
Because of course he's in like 4 episodes, isn't he?

1045
01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:39.119
Yeah, he's in four. four, yeah.

1046
01:06:39.179 --> 01:06:47.039
And so he kind of made the cast and he was so apparently happy to be invited through him and he was one of the most buoyant, the more buoyant people there.

1047
01:06:47.159 --> 01:06:53.579
In fact, it was the new series people that seem to have the energy in that room to actually talk and do stuff.

1048
01:06:53.639 --> 01:06:57.300
It was the original series, people who were kind of sitting there a little bit sheltered.

1049
01:06:57.360 --> 01:07:01.920
Yeah, but to say the energy, I think it's because the original series people deserve respect.

1050
01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:09.179
They deserve veneration for the fact that they were part of this show and they were sort of brought along and piled together at tables.

1051
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:10.559
And so it was a little bit off.

1052
01:07:10.619 --> 01:07:19.860
Yeah, yeah, like like dragged dragged out of retirement and inverted commas to watch this thing that's much better than when you were in it is how it felt to me.

1053
01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:20.340
Yeah.

1054
01:07:20.340 --> 01:07:23.760
I would say that it's made much better than when they were.

1055
01:07:23.820 --> 01:07:27.599
No, no, no, no. not saying I agree with that, but that's how it felt watching it.

1056
01:07:27.659 --> 01:07:30.059
It was like, oh, look at this fantastic Doctor Who.

1057
01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:31.320
What was it like when you were in it?

1058
01:07:31.380 --> 01:07:37.679
In fact, the only thing that I really did like was when Jackie Lane turned up on the...

1059
01:07:37.739 --> 01:07:39.179
Yeah, she's on the screen.

1060
01:07:39.300 --> 01:07:50.340
She does a William Hartman. happy anniversary to Doctor Who fans and everything and it really is absolutely heartwarming because she's one of the stars who at the time was not very prevalent.

1061
01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:51.239
She didn't go to conventions.

1062
01:07:51.300 --> 01:07:53.159
No, we didn't see her interviewed and things like that.

1063
01:07:53.219 --> 01:07:57.000
So to see her acknowledging the anniversary of the show was really great.

1064
01:07:58.380 --> 01:08:00.840
It would have just been better for them to appear in clips like that.

1065
01:08:00.900 --> 01:08:01.440
I agree.

1066
01:08:01.500 --> 01:08:04.380
Right, and have a montage, a 10 minute montage of them all.

1067
01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:04.980
Wow.

1068
01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:06.059
Or just litter them through.

1069
01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:07.679
You're so mean to Jackie Lane normally.

1070
01:08:07.739 --> 01:08:09.360
I love Jackie Lane.

1071
01:08:09.420 --> 01:08:10.800
We're mean to dodo.

1072
01:08:10.860 --> 01:08:13.739
I mean to Simon. like Simon.

1073
01:08:13.800 --> 01:08:14.940
Do you?

1074
01:08:16.140 --> 01:08:18.060
All right, I'm gonna stop.