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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:29:49

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that really needs to get out of here in about half an hour, my wife and kids are waiting for me in the car outside.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter, not Davidson.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm not Brendan nor James under sheets for this one.

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Well, as you heard a couple of days ago, the 50th anniversary special was completely ruined for all of us by the utterly disrespectful omission of Janet Fieldingers Tegan Javanka.

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So let's see if we can salvage some satisfaction from this terrible day as we press the red button and see what happens in the five-ish doctors reboot.

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So, I have to confess to being a little bit disappointed by Peter Davidson in this one, because I thought he was really cool and didn't kind of give a crap, and this can only be written by someone with a desperately upsettingly encyclopaedic knowledge of the entire history of Doctor Who.

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I think he had help on that front.

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But what it does show is he has, whatever he might pretend, he actually has incredible affection for the program and incredible affection for the fans as well.

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And this is also so Peter Davidson flavoured because not only is he a very Ryan sardonic person, but his doctor was Ryan sardonic, and he's just channelled all of that into this and the entire thing, is an exercise in Rhinus and Sardoni.

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But he's also, though, so happy to take the piss out of himself.

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And I think that shows his true worth.

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Yeah, in fact, that actually kind of happens to everyone.

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I mean, there's that scene where Colin Baker locks. his entire family into the house to watch vengeance on Barrel.

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Hey, we've all been there. such a bad story.

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No.

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But Sylvester's terrifically pathetic as well in a totally different way.

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Yeah.

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And like no one comes off as being good except possibly Paul McCann.

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Yeah, they're all happy to portray themselves as washed up has been, who were in this kind of crappy program 30 or 40 years ago, which wasn't actually that good. you know what I mean?

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It's the part they were born to play.

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Exactly.

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It is the Armando Ionucci episode of Doctor Who, even though it's sitting out on the fringe, but it does feel like 90s review.

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And again, that's kind of sweet because that's already 30 years ago.

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So it honestly feels like the comedic conventions.

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Has anyone said tropes this episode yet?

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No, but it's had a bit of a run this year.

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Has it?

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It's a bit of a revival.

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Well, it's a sticky trope in that case.

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Yeah, it does.

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It definitely, the whole comedic style of it also feels outmoded and outdated, and I think that adds to its watchability.

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We also have to say, isn't it significant for the last time we get to see Mr. Barrowman?

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No.

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Oh no, that's right.

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He comes back later before he...

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Yeah, twice.

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Before he's cancelled twice.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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That's the highlight of the episode for me.

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Well, it's also one of the very last things to be filmed in the BBC television centre.

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We said that earlier this week with adventure in space and time, time and space.

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Right.

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But this also has a scene in the BBC television centre, which is where Pete oddly thinks Doctor Who is still being made.

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Well, they just kind of outside.

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No, I mean, he actually goes in there, remember, and meets Matt and Jenna in a dream sequence.

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Oh yes, yes, yes.

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You are my mother's favourite doctor.

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Look away, look back.

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You are my favourite.

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So lovely.

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I really wanted William Russell in that uniform to tell them to sod off out of the car. as William Russell, who's had no other gig for 50 years.

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I think would have been great.

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Yeah.

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So everyone is back.

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Like everyone who is still alive basically is bad.

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And he's basically living in the country, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And what, like what I think about it is that this week has been very generous to all of the doctors, I think there was literally no prospect of any of the classic series doctors appearing. we ask Colin that?

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Well, I mean, but the thing is that they don't look anything like maybe Sylvester.

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They don't look like they did on the show.

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Very, very few of the people know who they are.

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And if they do know who they are, that's down to Stephen Moffat, I think.

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Well, they know who they are if it's Tom Baker.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I don't think there was any ever any actual prospect of the old ones appearing in the special. certainly not at least as the doctors.

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Maybe it's a Tom style cameo.

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And you'd think there would be more chance because it's now shot in widescreen rather than four?

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Yes, and there's more of them, he said. sweeping that into the corner.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Colin actually, you know, play true to type in this one?

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Okay.

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So I quite like this but I don't love it.

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Yeah.

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And the reason is that I don't think Colin is that in on the joke.

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I know that he is on a surface level, but when I was saying earlier that this is Peter Davidson flavoured, Peter Davidson's like that, Peter Davidson has a very healthy relationship with Doctor Who in that he is just the right amount of attached to it, but also consciously uncoupled from it.

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Whereas Doctor Who is the highlight of Colin's career and the circumstances under which he left were obviously quite raw and painful and still are raw and painful to him, quite obviously.

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And so having him depicted as someone who basically has nothing better to do than sit around watching and waiting for, um, with great joy, the delivery of vengeance on Varus, the special edition, and then being desperate to get into the 50th anniversary episode when we know that he actually did want to be in it and was quite hurt when Tom was the only one who was in it rather than any of the others, is just a bit close to the bone for me.

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Yeah, I think, look, I think that's probably fair, but I do think that Pete gives himself enough of that sort of material as well, and he seems to be the ringleader of the whole protest.

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He's the one who's standing outside television centre with a big sign.

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They're just sitting there with coffees.

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Yeah, they actually think he's a bit of an idiot.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And he is also depicted, you know, talking to his kids about how there's little prospect of him being in the anniversary special and having them just not care.

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Having them only interested in the new series.

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Yeah, yeah. which I think is pretty great.

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Yeah, I disagree with you, Peter.

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I think that Colin is on the joke.

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I think you can have, I think you can have both things.

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Both things are true.

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Yes, he was very hurt that they weren't in the 50th and there wasn't a way for it to work.

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But at the same time, I think he's more than capable of taking the piss out of himself in that way.

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I mean, locking the family in the home to watch Venice Vara special edition.

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I mean that is deliberately saying, yes, I know what I'm like.

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You know what I mean?

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And you're right.

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Pete gets most of the kind of stupidity part of it, especially when they're at the exhibition and he actually gets them all to go into the police box.

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It seems oddly surprised.

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But it's not the TARDIS.

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And Collin says, really?

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So I think you're probably reading something into it, which I don't think is there.

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No, absolutely.

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And it's about my relationship to the new series in the old series as well.

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Like, um, I wasn't quite on board with the fact that in the early years of New Doctor Who, a lot of the classic doctors and companions would go around bagging the old series in comparison.

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It looks so good now.

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They've got so much money.

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Russell's writing and it's brilliant, and by implication, the old series was ridiculous and low budget and not worth worrying over.

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Whereas actually, I'm more of a fan of the old series and I think it has its own strength.

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And so something like this, while I entirely get the joke, and I really love Peter Davison's sense of humour about it.

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It's a little more uncomfortable for me because I don't like to see the old series being mocked in comparison.

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Yeah, it turns out that the new series is often low budget and...

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But that's interesting because I don't I just don't get that tone from it.

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Yes, it's taking the piss, but it's taking the piss in such an affectionate way.

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Oh yeah, definitely.

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Do you remember the bit where they head into the studios for the recording and outside?

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It's all incidental music from the opera?

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And when they go inside, the incidental music is from Rings of Acas.

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And like they keep going back and forth.

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And it's the old, it's the old multi-fart, the Jack, they're on film.

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It's even it's even better than that because going back to what you were saying, Simon, the music from outside is the caves of Andrazani.

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Oh, my goodness, from inside.

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Oh, that's the rings of Adam.

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That's even better.

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Did anyone else come away from this just for the, I really want Pete to write an episode or direct an episode or just be...

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If only had in the old days, it would have been great.

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I think definitely if he'd worked with Graham and we'd had another season of, it could have been really interesting.

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He is a very smart man.

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Yeah, he's a lot smarter than almost all of us actually realised at the time and certainly many of us realise now.

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I mean, that level of comedy is definitely.

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I think that level of comedy is starting to be shown back when there were those sketches when the show was off the air, but not far from coming back onto the air.

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I think it was around the children and needs sort of stuff.

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And there was stuff that Mark Gatis and David Wade, where they kidnapped, where they kidnapped...

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Davidson basically has the tape over his mouth for the entire time.

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But what his eyes are doing.

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Isn't that a bit of like, I think I might kiss doctor.

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So he's always had a sense.

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It's just a shame We didn't see more of it in zero. and I think we would have probably, if it had gone on another year or two.

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I'd forgotten that Mark Gatis is the Kevin Bacon of Doctor Who.

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Yeah, and in fact brings all of these other extraordinary people, like we mentioned the other week.

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Diana Reig is only in Doctor Who because she's a mate of Mark Gatis.

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And he's and also her daughter, which is why they finally ended up.

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I mean, my God, what a runcible spoon he is.

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Leavering out there.

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I didn't actually want to say it like that.

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That's kind of unkind.

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What is everyone to say he's the Jethric of the...

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What is a runstable spoon?

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Is that something that's used to jimmy in action man out of a camera?

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It's a spoon with a very long candle.

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Exactly that purpose.

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Nothing to do with deadly assassin.

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And constipated scripts.

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You can just leave around.

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Whatever's good, but at the bottom of the barrel.

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But that sense of the lightness of touch that's in this.

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I think that's why I enjoyed this so much because I don't, I feel I've seen this for a while.

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I knew who.

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I think that Margatis was originally going to play the part that was given to John Barriman if TARDIS Wakia is to be believed and that it was given to Barriman because he didn't have anything official otherwise to do for the special.

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So what Gatis would have played, what, Gatis?

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Yeah, I think he would have played himself with his wife and kids. and so...

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Sparrowman is infinitely funnier.

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Well, I suspect the whole thing was a moveable feast, depending on who was found.

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Who was going what day?

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Oh my god, so-and-so's going to win it.

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So we have to give them something.

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So who would have played Colin?

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Oh.

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I mean, the most hilarious thing, I think, is when he dumps his wife and children, by the side of the road, and then just bores them rigid with show cheating. all the way to Carter.

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And isn't the code to his secret wife and kids, him singing, I am what I am.

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Well, that actually appears a couple of times in the episode.

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I think the BBC radio announcer is going to play him singing, I am what I am at some point.

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Yes.

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And then one of those sort of security guards is listening to, I am, whatever.

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But again, it's another one who's perfectly happy to just take the Mickey out of themselves.

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You know, he's living a secret life.

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Glandestine life with a wife and 2 children and but also that thing of, you know, he will just ball people with his own show tunes and he's got the pile of DVDs and CDs that he'll give to anyone who walks past and they're all thrown into the remainder bin at the exhibition.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, that shows that someone else who is perfectly happy to make themselves not, I can't think of the words.

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Well, just to make fun of themselves.

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To make fun of themselves.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And both showrunners at that point. doing exactly as well. fact that Moffat is writing the script to the 50th using the action figures.

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Yeah, yeah.

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In his office.

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Brilliant.

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Because that's what always happens.

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You know, Pandora opens, he opens his drawer of action figures and has them all kind of around the set.

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Like that's been his approach to the show and there he is being made fun of.

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And then basically casting himself as wrestle on in the 5 doctors.

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That's it.

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And then Russell, who is even lower on the pecking order than Peter Davison.

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Like everyone else is ringing Moffatt to try and get in the show.

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Russell's ringing Peter Davis. to get into the special year.

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But it's so knowing of all the fan tropes.

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There's that word and how all these people have their own personas within fandom at the conventions and all that and that's what's, you know, being portrayed as well so beautifully.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think there's a real generosity to it because I do think that that week everyone gets to do something.

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And far from being left out of the anniversary celebrations.

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All of those surviving doctors, everyone except Christopher Eccleston, who gets referenced as the doctor, but doesn't actually appear.

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You get regenerated into it.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But everyone.

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Well, I mean, he appears briefly in the big climactic scene, in day of next trunk.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And so I think there's a real warmth and generosity to that.

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And that's part of the theme, I think, of the 50th anniversary is bringing the old series and the new series together and creating one glorious whole, you know.

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I also like the fact that Peter Davison is the nearest thing to a dynasty that we have in... 3 generations.

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Yeah, because, I mean, it's always hard to keep straight in your head.

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It's like what's a 1st cousin once removed and what's a 2nd cousin, which I can never figure out, even though I've researched it many times and tried to get it sorted in my head, I still can't put my finger on what the difference is.

212
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:32.820
And Georgia Tennant is the thing that wrecks everything there because you think, but wait, so she's Peter Davidson's daughter, but she's married to David Tennant, which means that Peter Davidson's sons with his 2nd wife are the 2 kids at the start, but Georgia Tennant's son, who is now David Tennant's adopted son, is the kid who is running around the exhibition with his sonic screwdriver.

213
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:34.320
Oh, my God, really?

214
00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:35.820
saying that isn't right.

215
00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:36.659
Like Susan?

216
00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:37.860
Yes.

217
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:39.720
Exactly.

218
00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:42.480
And he now is an actor as well.

219
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:43.679
He's in Game of Thrones.

220
00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:45.179
Like he's a proper adult.

221
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:49.679
And just like keeping all of that in your head and trying to work out where all the generations sit.

222
00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:51.120
They're basically Doctor Who Royalty.

223
00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:55.559
Yeah, well, and that's brought in as well, which I just think is adorable.

224
00:16:55.620 --> 00:17:02.039
So you've got a very, very pregnant Georgia tenant, easy ice cream with a celery stick.

225
00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:03.000
Oh, yeah.

226
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:05.579
It might as well have been a runcible spin.

227
00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:09.359
And then it rings her as she's giving birth.

228
00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:09.960
Is that right?

229
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:13.980
I can't remember that there's something else importance going on. something else I was supposed to ask.

230
00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:17.519
So all of that's terribly fun.

231
00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:19.799
And so he uses that relationship to get in.

232
00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:21.779
That's how he even gets into the studio.

233
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:22.859
It's really true here.

234
00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:24.000
Yeah, awesome.

235
00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:25.380
Who else?

236
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.940
Do we have favourite cameos?

237
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.180
Well, the opening sequence with Olivia Coleman.

238
00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:37.019
I mean, that's just, I mean, she is she is perfect in everything, but I just love that kind of...

239
00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:38.039
Well, that's what she says, isn't it?

240
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:38.579
Yes, exactly.

241
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:39.779
I'm usually in everything.

242
00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:43.740
Even more true now. mortuary now.

243
00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.359
But yeah, it's just wonderful.

244
00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:45.900
Wonderful.

245
00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:46.920
Yeah.

246
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:58.680
And so we have Sean Pertuy representing his absent father and we actually have David Trouton representing his absent father as one of the Dalek operators who seem to be reading Dalek operators magazines.

247
00:17:58.740 --> 00:18:02.759
So you've got Nicholas Briggs and David Trout.

248
00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:04.079
David operate his Gazette.

249
00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:10.319
And then there's another sequence, did you notice, where I'm sure that someone's holding up a copy of Dr. magazine with the Webber Fear.

250
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:10.920
Tell us naps.

251
00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:12.240
Yes, I noticed that as well.

252
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:13.799
Yeah, yeah, is it in the production office?

253
00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:14.400
They all...

254
00:18:14.460 --> 00:18:15.119
Is it a production office?

255
00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:17.160
Yes, it's in the production office, which I thought was well done.

256
00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:19.619
Because that wasn't known again.

257
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.539
Well, known, but not public.

258
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.079
Right.

259
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.500
And also completing everything, Jessica Carney plays one of the security guards.

260
00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:26.519
What does she?

261
00:18:28.859 --> 00:18:32.099
Well, it's definitely Janet's finest hour.

262
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:36.119
Oh, she gets to be the master in the regeneration scene.

263
00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:38.460
Can I say about that sequence, Peter?

264
00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:50.579
You may or may not remember this, but we are watching, of course, all this at your place in Penge, the night of the anniversary, and the actual anniversary, you know, the day the doctor finishes and we're all going, blah, blah, blah.

265
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:55.259
And then, of course, oh, we got to go to the red button thing because that's how this was shown in the UK.

266
00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:57.839
And so there would be about a 10 minute lag.

267
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.240
And I assume that this had already started.

268
00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:06.119
So when we turned it on on the red button, it started with the regeneration sequence.

269
00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:20.640
So the 1st thing we so for us, when we saw it the 1st time, it starts with Moffat lying on the sofa and then all these faces starting to appear around him and he suddenly sort of leaps up the start and we thought that that was just kind of like a cute little tag at the beginning.

270
00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:26.640
And then, of course, because it was just on a loop, and then you sort of caught her... take us about 2 minutes to realise that we'd missed some.

271
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:28.740
No, we didn't know.

272
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:39.960
I was actually insisting to some people, one person in particular who was quite drunk that evening, that we had gotten to, when we came round to the start again, that, no, no, no, no, we just missed this part.

273
00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:43.980
It's just on a loop and I'll get the name off you later.

274
00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:04.799
So in the other dream, which is very, very definitely all of the people circling around, it's everyone, isn't it?

275
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:10.680
Like, I think I spotted Anika and...

276
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:11.339
Katie is obvious.

277
00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:12.539
Lala's there?

278
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:14.460
Yep That's good.

279
00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:15.900
Did we?

280
00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:17.160
I need to go and pause and sort of.

281
00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:17.819
I never actually pause.

282
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.960
Maybe that's why Tom didn't do it.

283
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:28.259
So apparently Tom didn't want to do it or Pete rang him several times and he replied.

284
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:31.740
Allegedly, everyone who was asked to be in it.

285
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:34.019
Said yes. said yes. one exception.

286
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:39.839
Now that could be a slightly apocryphal answer given during the convention to me.

287
00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:41.759
I mean, it is Peter Davidson telling us that.

288
00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:44.160
It is right and sardonic.

289
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:45.779
And so there may have been, I mean, who knows?

290
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.779
There may have been others that said no, but I think he's just making, he was just making the usual point.

291
00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:51.000
Ian McCellen did it.

292
00:20:51.059 --> 00:20:53.220
Oh my god, that's great.

293
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:58.319
And you know, so they shot that on the set and like said...

294
00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:59.400
They had an overseas budget.

295
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:02.519
No, they didn't.

296
00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:06.299
Peter Jackson shot it and sent it over.

297
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.940
It's extraordinary, but I mean, because Peter Jackson is a big fan.

298
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:16.740
But that isn't that incredible that, you know, an Academy Award-winning director slash producer, whatever he got the award for at the time?

299
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:29.460
loves the show so much, to film this thing, to take a moment on the set of a multi-million dollar Hollywood production, to film a little joke to go in at basically what is effectively a DVD extra.

300
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:34.920
Yeah, I think it's just amazing because it means that Peter Jackson and Ron Jones have directed for the same show.

301
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:41.640
But don't you love Sylvester's iPhone screen when it comes up with Peter the Peter Jackson's calling?

302
00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:43.140
and he's holding the Oscar.

303
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:45.240
Well, that's right.

304
00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:48.059
Moffatt has like BAFTAs and things like that.

305
00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:52.079
So good.

306
00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:57.900
I love Ian McCallen in that too, where he says, well, actually, probably be better without it.

307
00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:04.140
And the fact that, you know, Peter Jackson has to remind him who Sylvester is...

308
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:15.900
And Sylvester and Sylvester is wearing the Hobbit thing and is doing what we ourselves have personally experienced just going on and on and on about being... all the time.

309
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:17.640
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

310
00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:27.480
And the comedy, the oversized comedy t-shirts that the doctors wear under their jackets, that same sort of thing, and recognising that they're all filled out.

311
00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:28.619
That's it.

312
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:35.880
I think for me, though, the thing that made it so incredible was that it was so incredibly unexpected.

313
00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:41.759
We knew that there was this going to be this little red button thing that we we were supposed to watch after the day of the doctor.

314
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:47.819
But the fact that it was so long, it's half an hour, it's not 10 minutes.

315
00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:51.420
You know, the fact that, as we've said, everybody is in it.

316
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.920
Not just nearly everybody, but basically everybody is in it to some degree.

317
00:22:55.980 --> 00:23:00.779
The fact that it is both so affectionate about the program.

318
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.119
And that's why I sort of want to pick up with what you were saying before, Peter.

319
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:06.180
I don't think it crosses the line to mocking it.

320
00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:14.519
And I agree with you that when the show comes back, they're all trying to distance themselves from the original series going, you know, it was all a bit rubbish, and we understand that, and you know, it was all a lot of shoestring, and it's so much better now, blah, blah, blah.

321
00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:16.140
That's also to some extent what fandom was doing.

322
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:19.319
You know, people like you and I were very much in the minority.

323
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:27.660
You know, we did start to love the classic series even more because I was worried that, oh, the new series was going to come along and, you know, the classic series was going to be sort of shoved into a cupboard.

324
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:34.079
And so I think, yes, in 2013, this show has only been back 8 years.

325
00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:36.960
We're still kind of to some extent in that mindset.

326
00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:40.680
But certainly watching it from this distance where I think those feelings have moved away.

327
00:23:40.740 --> 00:24:05.279
I think it just rides this beautiful line of being affectionately mocking, not really mocking the show, but mocking the people in the show and relying on our decades of experience with these actors, with these actual people at conventions and when they appear on DVD extras and the kind of the meta part of fandom rather than the actual show part necessarily.

328
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:06.720
Oh yes, absolutely.

329
00:24:06.779 --> 00:24:08.759
And I don't have many problems with it.

330
00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:10.140
I do quite like it.

331
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:28.799
As I said before, it's partly about my own reaction to how classic Doctor Who was kind of a little bit waylaid by a new Doctor Who, but the fact that it's Peter Davidson who's doing it makes a lot of difference because it is about almost fan constructs of what the doctor's personalities were.

332
00:24:28.859 --> 00:24:32.220
And Peter Davidson is very aware of that and is channelling that.

333
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:39.779
And so I can put my slight awkwardness at that aside, it just means that I'm not 100% on board.

334
00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:40.980
I'm 90% on board.

335
00:24:41.220 --> 00:25:07.140
I think, though, that this whole year has been about bringing classic Doctor Who back into the fold, and I can kind of understand the Doctor Who was a punchline, and it was a show that was kind of science fiction drama produced like a light entertainment program, a show that they'd been making for years and years without properly thinking about why on earth they were doing it.

336
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:17.279
And we were all still around to enjoy the Sylvester McCoy era where it suddenly had some proper ideas behind it and had had some thought put into it.

337
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:19.740
But it had been a punchline.

338
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:27.299
And so I think that they were right initially when bringing it back to be wary of the association with the old program.

339
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:34.200
But I certainly think by the time series 7 comes along, we're much more relaxed about that because we're successful on our own terms.

340
00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:43.740
And it's contextual as well because the new series was a massive hit for its 1st few years and was definitely in the anniversary year.

341
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:48.839
And so the comparisons would sort of audience profile and popularity are apt.

342
00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:56.579
But we can look at it a little bit differently now where the new series is still popular enough, but is another drama series on television.

343
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.059
It doesn't have the heavenly choir of angel singing every time it's mentioned.

344
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:02.700
Yeah, well, we'll get that next year.

345
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:03.359
It'll be fine.

346
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:07.680
But Doctor Who, I think, becomes the punchline in that way in the 80s.

347
00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:08.220
Yeah.

348
00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:10.799
And not because, I mean, I love I love all that area as well.

349
00:26:10.859 --> 00:26:27.660
But I think it's because, well, actually, should I say it becomes the punchline in the sort of from the Williams era on, because I think that's when the show starts to fall behind what's needed visually to keep up with...

350
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:28.259
Exactly.

351
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.660
And because they just can't, right?

352
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:40.980
But also, you know, high inflation, relatively speaking, budget cuts, terrible producer, well, yeah, well, different kinds of terrible producer, like they're both terrible in their own way.

353
00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:43.980
Great Williams and James, he much as I'm fond of both of them.

354
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:49.019
But they both have significant spots, yeah.

355
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:49.380
Yeah.

356
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:53.579
You know, Graham Williams, I think, isn't able to get the best out of the BBC people that he can.

357
00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:56.700
And everyone starts, it becomes the Tom Baker comedy half hour show.

358
00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:59.339
JNT can get the best out of the BBC.

359
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:02.579
That's why we have Greater Show in the Galaxy at all because he knew how the system worked.

360
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:04.619
He could fudge things together and make it work.

361
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:09.900
But he kind of gets so obsessed with the merchandising and everything else that the shade starts to become a parody of itself.

362
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:13.259
And he has no taste and he's not very into writing.

363
00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:17.819
Exactly He cares less about the scripts and more about the kind of the set piece moments.

364
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:19.559
And I think that's why it becomes the punchline.

365
00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:23.400
That's when the BBC hierarchy starts to want to go away.

366
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:24.059
Yeah.

367
00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:25.559
And I think that's where it is.

368
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:27.180
I don't think that's the case in the 60s.

369
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:29.160
You know, had the program ended in 1978.

370
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:31.799
I think this wouldn't have even been a conversation.

371
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:32.339
No.

372
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:42.000
I mean, that's pretty much why when you have a crossover in the fiction, with the new show, it's Tom Baker's doctor, more or less, who is back and not one of the 80s doctors.

373
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:47.279
And so Peter Davidson's instincts and what he's what he's saying in this program are actually correct.

374
00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:47.940
Yeah.

375
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:57.420
I mean, when they start starting to rehabilitate the show from like in the early 90s, you know, when Alan Yentov is trying to kind of get things going again.

376
00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:58.380
What are they showing?

377
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:01.500
You know, they're not showing the 80s stories.

378
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:07.319
They're showing, you know, Pertwee and Tom Baker stories on those Friday night repeats as a rule.

379
00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:09.240
Yeah, in the late 90s, yes.

380
00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:11.160
Spearhead and Silurians and Genesis.

381
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:11.460
Yeah.

382
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:37.859
I mean, that we talk about Davidson being smart, but one of the ways you know that he's smart is that he gets this terrible material and finds some way of performing it.

383
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.500
You know, he always seems to be doing something.

384
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:41.640
Like you can tell.

385
00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:43.559
Yes, he's never just finding it in.

386
00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:45.119
Yeah, obviously rubbish, isn't it?

387
00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:46.680
Because as a whole, it's not.

388
00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:51.960
It's just, I think most of the failures are failures of production.

389
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:52.680
Yeah.

390
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:57.420
I mean, there's always going to be script things, which are a bit rubbish, but no, mostly they're fine.

391
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:02.640
I think that the show becomes too horrible, I think.

392
00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:03.720
Oh, well, yes, you have an issue.

393
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:04.559
It stops being fun.

394
00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:06.240
Yeah, no I disagree with that.

395
00:29:06.299 --> 00:29:07.619
With Capaldi or with Joe?

396
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.700
No, with Davis.

397
00:29:08.700 --> 00:29:11.339
David, yeah.

398
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:12.660
I think that's overstated.

399
00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:13.619
Exactly so, but.

400
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:15.420
And you can really see the cast.

401
00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:19.799
The cast are led by Davison's emotional responses to that.

402
00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:25.019
And you can really see him, forgive me, petering out. why I'm here.

403
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:35.819
The best thing that happened to the program in that era is Peter Davidson making the conscious decision between, I would say, the 5 doctors and Warriors of the Deep to just start playing the doctor as himself.

404
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:36.480
Yeah.

405
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.819
It's that one...

406
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.500
Yeah, that's what's missing.

407
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:46.019
I mean, you get flashes of it. a bit of a joy at the time. as a little boy thinking, I'm actually enjoying this.

408
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.079
I mean, we loved all of it, but there was just a sense of...

409
00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:50.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

410
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:52.980
I mean, even worries of the deep, which we now scored.

411
00:29:53.099 --> 00:29:54.059
I loved it at the time.

412
00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:55.740
It had a big...

413
00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:59.160
It looked very 80s instead of very 70s, you know?

414
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:01.619
It was a bubbly space 1999.

415
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:05.279
But can I say until but it's interesting after 1920s.

416
00:30:05.339 --> 00:30:08.099
After sort of 1920, even though I can't, yeah, you're right.

417
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:09.180
We were sort of all loving it.

418
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:17.759
But I was sort of loving it, but at the same time, I was then looking forward to going back to the Ark and Space after time flight finished or whatever they went back to would have been something like that.

419
00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:21.240
And you're watching then the Toms and so on like that.

420
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:23.519
And then, 0 my god, they go back and do Day of the Daleks.

421
00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:32.579
And so, you know, that was more exciting for me in 1982, 83. than it was for me to see a brand new episode. same.

422
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.119
Yeah.

423
00:30:33.180 --> 00:30:41.339
I actually gave this comparison to Matt Jones at that do that we keep coming back to about comparing the 50th and the 20th.

424
00:30:41.339 --> 00:30:47.519
And I was kind of predicting a, you know, is it all going to start to go horribly wrong in the same way that it did after the 20th.

425
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:48.900
I remember that conversation.

426
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.460
Look what happened.

427
00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:54.240
Look, it happened because of the fact that, you know, everything builds to this massive anniversary special.

428
00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:55.920
There's this great celebration of the program.

429
00:30:55.980 --> 00:31:01.740
So anything after that is going to be a sort of a denouement, a bit of a kind of a disappointment.

430
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:08.460
And the show starts to change a direction to try and do something different and I'll what if we have a doctor like this and do that.

431
00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:09.359
And it is.

432
00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:10.740
And I actually think there are a lot of parallels.

433
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:11.940
And it never happens immediately.

434
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.619
There's always some residual goodwill.

435
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:16.920
So in the original show, you'll get season 21, which is pretty good.

436
00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:19.140
And season 22, which you and I think is pretty good.

437
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.000
And it is, it's this.

438
00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:21.299
It is.

439
00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:21.960
Yeah, terrible.

440
00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:27.000
And in the new series, you do get pretty much the rest of the Moth era, which is pretty good.

441
00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:29.880
Series 8 is and series 10.

442
00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:32.160
Yeah, Series 8's a proper return to form.

443
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:33.660
I'll be interested to see what I think.

444
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:41.400
Well, I just think it's like he's too embarrassed to like he wants to do a good job because the doctor suddenly him, his old Scottish guy.

445
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:45.180
It's like, oh, I'm the doctor now. have to write good things for me to say.

446
00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:50.220
And series 8 retains basically the popularity of the Matt Smith era.

447
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:56.279
It's a fraction down in ratings, but it has that kind of audience and appreciation to it.

448
00:31:56.339 --> 00:32:03.599
It is the closest, I think, in structure to a Davies series, even more so than five, I think.

449
00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:06.660
You know, it's lightly serialised.

450
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:09.000
It's got the master in a kind of arc.

451
00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:12.299
We just go back and forward and do various sort of different things.

452
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:13.500
Yeah, you know.

453
00:32:36.299 --> 00:32:39.900
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for for now.

454
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:46.200
We'll be back at Christmas to say a centuries long farewell to Matt Smith in time of the doctor.

455
00:32:46.380 --> 00:33:05.160
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

456
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.259
Until next time, may Olivia Coleman continue to be in everything.

457
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.720
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

458
00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:13.559
Good night.

459
00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:14.160
Bye bye.

460
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:14.940
Good then.

461
00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:27.480
That was Flight True Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Warren, Richard Stone.

462
00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:29.700
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb.

463
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:36.059
This episode, petering out, was recorded on the 2nd of October 2022 and released on the 27th of November.

464
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:51.299
Thank you all very much for joining us for this week's anniversary celebrations and special thanks to Conrad Westmas for joining us for our night of the doctor episode.

465
00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:55.920
And thank you to all the loyal and attractive listeners who gave us feedback this week.

466
00:33:55.980 --> 00:33:57.660
We couldn't have done it without you.

467
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:06.240
We've been going for half an hour.

468
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:09.539
I think that we should do an out, though.

469
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:15.420
Well, we haven't talked about the part two. that they were going to do.

470
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:16.980
There's nothing to say about it.

471
00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:17.940
There was going to be a part two.

472
00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:25.079
McGain was talking about it at a convention 12 months after. part two Exactly.

473
00:34:25.139 --> 00:34:27.239
And why isn't everyone, you know, why aren't we in it?

474
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.340
What were they going to?

475
00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:33.179
He was saying it's in pre-production and they're scripts and we're still, you know, What were they going to call it?

476
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:34.199
The next day of the doctor.

477
00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:35.639
That's it.

478
00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:40.019
And then Colin said, immediately afterwards, possibly the same convention.

479
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.519
I can't remember, it's a very long time ago.

480
00:34:41.579 --> 00:34:44.940
It's on, um, it's on the Tatus Wiki thing, this story as well.

481
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:46.619
He said, no, you?

482
00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:50.159
In his best car, but more northern.

483
00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:58.380
They said, no, we have looked at several ideas, but it would feel a pale imitation of the glory that was the five-ish doctor's reboot.

484
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:02.280
But there is apparently chat going on.

485
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:03.420
Us, Colin.

486
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.719
Colin is a bit of a blab. quite happy to chat.

487
00:35:06.780 --> 00:35:07.619
That would have been great.

488
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.139
They could have fired Colin and then gone on without him.

489
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:11.940
Wow.

490
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:14.099
No, too soon.

491
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:20.280
It's still too soon But I do hope he's doing something for next year.

492
00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:24.480
It'll be interesting to see... things.

493
00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:26.639
So, you know, if anyone follows Uncle Colin.

494
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:38.039
The funny thing is that this is going to be released after the Chibnall centenary special.

495
00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:38.820
Oh.

496
00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:46.559
And so by then, we will know what a bad idea it was to bring all of those people back into the main show.

497
00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:49.380
I don't need to see it can tell from the trailer.

498
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.119
Oh, yeah, yeah.

499
00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:53.699
With all due respect to the people involved in it, none of them listen, do they?

500
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.340
Janet Janet doesn't listen to everything she's mentioned, is it?

501
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:59.159
Well, we'll just ask her when we're released.

502
00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:02.039
Maybe that could be the sequel to this.

503
00:36:02.099 --> 00:36:07.139
It could be Peter Davison in a cave zone design or a generation coming back and say, they're not going to have you back, Janet.

504
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:15.239
It is a bit sad that Janet Fielding and Sophie Aldred never had more to do with the new show than Peter Davidson has.

505
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:19.440
That is a that is a crime against nature.

506
00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:24.780
Well, Peter Davidson and David Tennant were watched by 13000000 people in 2007.

507
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:27.239
I don't think they're going to be watched by the same number of people.

508
00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:28.920
Oh, for that?

509
00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:30.179
Children of Nate thing.

510
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:30.719
Oh, okay.

511
00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:31.320
Okay, fair enough.

512
00:36:31.380 --> 00:36:31.860
He did do that.

513
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:32.820
I forgot about that one.

514
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.219
So it's actually this month.

515
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:36.599
So it's extraordinary thing.

516
00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:37.199
October, yeah.

517
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:38.340
We're in October now.

518
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:42.719
It's extraordinary to think that I am totally uninterested in what's going on.

519
00:36:43.139 --> 00:36:44.579
It's in 3 week, 3 or four. 4 weeks time.

520
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.440
Is there anyone who is excited about it?

521
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.360
I don't know, Brendan.

522
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:49.980
I used to be.

523
00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:52.679
So is this the, is this, does she regenerate at the end?

524
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:53.280
Yes, yes.

525
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:54.360
Into David Tenant?

526
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:55.139
Into David Tenant?

527
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:56.760
Not into shooting.

528
00:36:56.820 --> 00:37:01.619
So he's actually not into the watcher. to David Tenner, who's going to regenerate into shooting.

529
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:02.159
Right.

530
00:37:02.219 --> 00:37:06.659
So I wasn't sure whether so the David Tennant bits aren't like a flashback to his earlier thing.

531
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:09.780
Because he looks older and, you know, he's wearing different clothes.

532
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.179
No, but I think they've...

533
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:13.079
They've let into on with.

534
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:14.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

535
00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:15.659
Yeah.

536
00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:17.219
God.

537
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:19.019
This is going to be terrible.

538
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:27.059
I think I very definitely a, sorry, we've for the last few years up and we're going to reassure you all that it's going to be...

539
00:37:27.059 --> 00:37:30.420
No, but I don't want them to make it look like we've stuffed up everything since David Tennant left.

540
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.679
No that's true.

541
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:33.300
They certainly haven't.

542
00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:34.440
No.

543
00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:37.500
But it did go off the boil, though, I think.

544
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:41.099
You know, like it stops after the 50th anniversary.

545
00:37:41.099 --> 00:37:43.260
After the 50th anniversary, I think it does.

546
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:46.079
I mean, the Capaldi era is a disappointment to me.

547
00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:54.420
And especially because I thought he would, he's such a, has such a good doctor and can be such a good doctor and I think he's just wasted and it's a shame.

548
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:58.800
I actually gave this comparison to Matt Jones at that do that we keep coming back to.