Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast that's like flirting with a mountain
range, ambitious but not particularly productive.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Todd.
I'm Peter.
And I'm really looking forward to the return of Karen Ford for the
end of this one for this one.
Well, we've been watching Matt Smith's doctor for 4 years now from
his 1st adventure on Earth with the Atraxi to his last adventure
on Trezilore with literally everyone he's ever met.
We've laughed, we've cried, and we've done the giraffe dance at
Amy's wedding, but have we learned anything?
Let's find out as we embark on our Matt Smith retrospective.
It's time for Snog marry avoid.
Five, six, seven.
I have to get my chapstick for this one.
I mean, I think you would have to marry season 5 because you could
just watch it over and over.
It's really great.
You'd probably avoid series 6 because it's problematic in the arc
and you never want long-term problems.
Series 7.
Well, okay, I could snog series 7 or bits of like, it's not a town
called Mercy.
Yeah, yeah.
Definitely.
Ben Browner in a town called Mercy.
Yeah, yeah.
So I would have a different answer from this.
I would snog series six.
I would definitely marry a series 5 because I think it's a thing
of beauty.
Sorry, I got there.
Series 6 is sort of problematic, I think, but it's interesting.
Whereas series 7, I think, is just a bit dull. isn't that what
marriage is?
So I'm told.
Richard.
Oh, it's it's all a post-COVID hangover blur, but that's just
because we're here on a Sunday.
There were so many gorgeous moments.
I think I'd probably just keep them all on an app and just dip
into each and every one of them as I so pleased because I'm not
really up for long terms.
With this lot anymore.
No, that's a good and fair question, and I'd have to look at it
overall.
What do we end up going back to and watching since 2005.
It is this period.
It is, you might say Stephen Moffatt's 1st few years.
Or you might just call it Matt's time, but they are the ones I go
back to.
So yeah, I think I'd have a clandestine affair with each and every
one of them and not tell the other two.
Well thank you.
I agree with you Peter.
I'm definitely on the series 5 bandwagon and avoiding series 6 at
all.
Well, not at all costs, but I think there's things in there that
just I don't connect with.
So yeah, no, there we go.
Well, this is the Matt Smith retrospective.
So let's talk about Matt.
What's his legacy?
What do you take away now that it's been, how long has it been?
Over 10 years since he was the doctor?
Gosh.
He is the only other doctor since John Pertway who I was bereft
when he left.
I wanted him to stay.
I wanted another season.
I didn't think we'd seen all that he could give, and I just think
it was a tragedy, that he didn't do another year.
I think at the moment, and I'm just starting the Capoldi era now
in preparation for our coverage of that on the podcast, I still
think that he is the best portrayal of the doctor in the show's
history, including the classic series.
I think he gets it absolutely rise.
And people don't.
I think some people don't properly appreciate how unpleasant a
character he is, that he is actually a kind of bad guy, like
Moffatt's other doctor.
And I think that I want that from the doctor.
I want that sort of Tom in horror fang rock, doctor, who is
slightly unpleasant.
There's a facade of geniality and kind of silliness to this doctor
but there's a real kind of steel to him as well.
And, you know, comparing him to David Tennant when they're doing
angry acting, for instance.
I think Matt can be properly terrifying in a way that Tennant
never actually seems to manage.
So he's my favourite, I think.
It may be splitting hairs slightly, but I don't think Matt is the
strongest performer to ever played the doctor.
I agree with that.
Maybe David Tennant and Peter Capaldi are on balance better and
more varied actors, but Matt delivers something in the role, which
neither of them quite reach.
It's just a role that was made for him, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think there's a distinction between actor and performer
isn't there?
Like, Tom might be the greatest performer in the role.
I would say he is actually.
Yeah, or maybe Pat.
But Pat's also an actor.
Pete is an actor more than a performer.
Tom lives it.
Yeah, that's why young people were and still are actually drawn
into his performance.
Yeah.
Well, I mentioned per wee earlier. we know will make great claims
for as an actor, but he's a consummate performer. brings the
doctor to life.
And you could see the care and subtlety and conviction.
He really loved this part.
And you could say that actually for pretty much all of them.
They all took it very seriously and their duty of care, you might
say, to not just do the work.
Actually, to the audience.
Um, you hear that Tom's saying he, I played it to children, but I
think he played it to university students and that's why the
humour worked both ways because young people, you know, are always
aspirant to their older brothers and sisters who are, you know
they want to be part of that humour, older people have that sense
of nostalgia for when they still had hope and joy.
And therefore, you know, and Red Douglas Adams with, um, without
the conviction that he was a perfect seer and all of this is
actually happening.
So, you know, there's that sense of fun.
Billy, I keep going back to for the freshness and uniqueness and
the power, just the anger of him is joyful and Capaldi carries
that.
But I think the only one who actually lived the part and I
couldn't see they were acting was Billy and Tom because they're
both a bit bags of nuts.
I think the fact that it's quite warming, the fact that David
Tennant and Peter Capaldi were both fans, and so they knew what
they were taking on, whereas Matt came into it fresh.
He didn't really know anything until he sat down and watched Tomb
of the Cybermen. which Moth had lent him.
And the fact that he became such a good custodian of the flame, and
sort of became a great ambassador for the show and became someone
who clearly loved the show, counted for a lot, I think.
Yeah, Tennant has a very sort of self-conscious desire to be the
doctor, which is, I think, why his doctor is so, so good because
he knows what works in the role.
And I think that Matt doesn't have that.
Matt isn't aware of what works when you're the doctor.
And so he just does really strange, interesting things with the
role.
I get the sense that Matt, I don't know.
How was the rehearsal period working for them by this period
compared to, you know, was it the same amount of rehearsal for
episodes that they had under Russell that they have now?
I mean, I think you do get rehearsed record.
They may have a day where they sort of rehearse with a new lead
you know, a new co-lead or whatever.
Although we know that Matt never did it filmically and never gave
the same performance twice on the take.
Remember, there were all those stories coming out from the
production of series 5 before he'd been seen on television over
how his performance was erratic and maybe wasn't quite there.
But of course, we realised from watching it, that was just him
sorting out what would land and what would work.
And of course, it's magic on screen.
Yeah, I mean, we said that his 1st day where he's shooting the
Angels 2 partter in series 5.
The beach with River and Amy.
He's perfect. like absolutely perfect.
We don't get any sort of weird 4 to doomsday performance full of
things that never end up being part of the sort of long term
role.
If Doctor Who were the tarot card deck.
And in many ways it is. he is the holy fool and he leaps in and I
love that that's at the foot of a cliff face because that's his
performance.
He really does.
And I see in the flapping of the arms, you're winging this.
You haven't worked out what you're doing.
You're doing it right now and that's where the energy is coming
from.
Yeah, your arms hard enough. anyone will wing it.
Oh, I thought of Nicola with all the feathers and the allergies
poor thing.
But yeah, that kind of panic will draw an audience in because it's
such a visceral thing, observing performance and has no time
dilation scale to it.
Oh, such a Doctor Who thing to say.
So, you know, it can be recorded, it can be 20 years ago.
It can be 60 years ago.
The audience will respond as if it's theatre and we're in the room
because we're committed to the performances.
Has anyone watched sex education recently, again?
No, not since the announcement, actually.
I graduated a long time ago.
Yeah, ooh.
Oh, it's great.
And I wasn't going to.
I thought, no, I want to see what shoot he does.
And the 1st 2 episodes, there's that matte quality, and I can see
now what Russell, I'm sure he's done many other interesting things
but I can see why Russell has said, yes, you.
Shooty just has that gorgeous manic.
I'm still in control.
You're not.
You're making it up, and it could go either way, and there's that
tightrope tension that really, really works.
Tom had that as well.
And Billy definitely had it when he was, especially as he was
getting older, and those moments with Peter Purvis, where he was
being supported, or it's just like, oh, you're really panicking
and it's so interesting to watch.
Matt is such a natural in the role.
And I think that story that Stephen tells of him being the only
one, he basically left the audition room and they all looked at
each other and went, obviously, it's him.
He was in the 1st six, wasn't he?
The 1st like the really early.
He was third, I think, is what they say.
He was the 3rd person.
And then Moffatt and Piers Wanger left the room and had a dream.
No, like I said, and said, well, we can't take Miriam Margolis
because, you know, she'll eat.
Don't mix up your executive producers.
Wow.
Please keep that in.
Please.
Yeah, I mean, he was the 3rd and they just immediately said, we
need to.
I think the story goes, we need to snap him up because if we don't
someone else will snap him up and he'll become a big star.
I think it's what Pierce Fenger said.
And Moffin said, well, let's prevent him from becoming...
That's a very Stephen Thing to say, yeah.
Look, I agree with you.
I agree with you, Peter.
I think there is this quality to math that's just so natural.
And I think in series 5, there's just this energy before you see
him on screen before he sees himself on screen.
That is different from 6 and seven, I do think.
But I mean, that's like any any doctor, you know, once it's out
there and feedback is given and they see that, you know, there is
slight changes.
But that boyish energy and charm of series 5, I don't think, has
ever been repeated in the entire run of the new series.
And I think it really sets him up for his whole run.
Season 5 is quite an innocent performance, isn't it?
Whereas I think after that, when he's seen himself on screen, when
he's seen how popular he is with the general public, it becomes, in
not a bad sense, a more calculated performance, but he's good all
the way through.
I think the writers have seen him too.
That's the other thing.
Yes, that's right.
And we said he hits the ground running in Time of Angels, which
was he shot first, but let's also pay tribute to Steven's writing
because he gives him all of the material that he needs in that
episode.
He runs the entire gamut from comedy to high drama.
And in those 1st scenes.
He's also acting opposite River song.
Alex Kingston.
And I think that was a perfect scene partner to start off with.
Yes, I mean, you can't tell that it's his 1st filming at all.
I think, you know, it's just slots in so effortlessly into that
entire run.
And I think having Alex Kingston there for him to go against.
It just sets the tone for what's to come.
I also think he successfully does old in a way that Tennant and
Eggleston probably don't, and it's something that they really want
to emphasise in the new series, and Matt has that big old face, big
old boat race.
And he's very still, and even though he's, you know, barely got a
line on his face, he's like 27 or something, he really conveys the
kind of gravity of how old the doctor is.
I think that's amazing.
It's that dichotomy.
Sorry, just Stephen Moffatt said at the time.
I just remembering, he said, Matt walked in and was a cheeky
schoolboy and a wise old man of the universe at exactly the same
and you need to be able to play young and old simultaneously.
Many actors find that difficult to achieve.
And so that was it.
We knew instantly.
I think that Moffatt said in DWM that he was like an old man in
the body of an underwear model.
He also said he's ew, by the way.
I think I've seen that video.
No, it's...
Yes, thank you, Todd.
We all had our finger on that.
One of our listeners, DJ Alpha T, asked, do you think Matt left at
the right time, and to paraphrase what he always had to say?
Would another year be drawn out or allow Moffat to wrap up
storylines, not the rush job in time with the doctor?
Interesting.
I take issue with the premise of the question.
Time of the doctor's amazing.
I think, too, that the rush job in time of the doctor was always
what he was going to do.
I mean, those sort of long-term arcs basically can be dealt with
in a line of dialogue.
So Moffatt uses time of the doctor to make that point in a way
those things work as they're happening, but they never really work
when they're solved.
And it was all sort of there already, wasn't it?
I mean, we knew that Madame Cavarian was going to stop the doctor
and that the church was going to stop the doctor.
None of those revelations were new.
They just explicitly said what we'd kind of worked out.
So I don't think we do a rush job in time of the doctor.
I would have liked more, Matt, and you can see that he was sort of
setting things up for there to be more, Matt.
And so, you know, we go straight to trends law immediately after
day of the doctor.
But I don't think it matters and and we've got Capaldi in series 8
and he's pretty great.
I don't think there's any doctor who I've said, I'm glad that, well
maybe one who I've said.
I'm glad they're gone and I wouldn't like another season with them
but with Matt, it's particularly acute.
It just felt like he had so much more to give.
And he's in the prime of his life and the prime of his acting life
and we sort of lost him a little bit too early, I think.
Do you know, I saw Morbius in the last couple of days.
Really?
Did you push him over a cliff?
Not afraid of Morbius, but the terrible film that Matt's in.
You know, I've seen that and it took me those seconds to remember
what the hell that was because it's so exactly what you're
saying.
Yeah, thank you.
I don't want to cut you off.
Well, I just did.
Sorry, it's much like this podcast.
I feel there could have been a whole other arc and a whole other
other character exploration and perhaps a dark side doctor.
So I think we were all thinking exactly the same thing.
Well, I mean, the thing is that he's not had a stellar film career
after being the doctor, but he's had a pretty seriously worthwhile
TV career, hasn't he?
With the crown, which at the time was, you know, the most
expensive TV show ever made.
And there's no true distinction between TV and film these days.
No, that's right. prestigious.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Game of Thrones, where apparently he's very good, even though
I will never watch it.
Right.
It's got Diana Riga, apparently.
Yeah, no it does.
Why won't you watch?
Well, it's just too violent, non-pleasant for me.
I thought you were going to say it's too long and too long.
And there are no robots in it.
I've got a nod to Doctor Who there.
No, I want to say darker doctor, I mean, perhaps, you know, an alt
universe, valeyard type doctor, but just really let him stretch
because I'm really agreeing with what Peter's saying is that we
didn't see enough.
It is the thing.
You know, they always say at Trout and said it always leave them
wanting more.
It's the old theatre adage.
Yeah, I get that.
I don't think it would have felt stale.
I don't know that it might, actually, and no unfairness to Jenna
Louise, but I don't know that that would have worked as a single
pairing for a whole other year.
There could have maybe a bit of a play or let it go home, have
someone else come in, that kind of thing.
But no, there were definitely new ideas.
And you can see, perhaps, preceding what Stephen Moffatt was going
to do in the next few years that no, there were definitely ideas
to explore.
I just want, I really just want Matt and Missy up against each
other.
I think Missy is designed to be with Capaldi.
Yeah, because they're both horribly Scottish.
Yes, exactly.
But having said that, I think if he'd continued and gone with the
missy line, they may not have cast Michelle in that role. somebody
more.
Well, they may have because he works very well with actresses who
are older than him, you know?
If we look at Tasha Lamb.
Olivia Coleman.
Olivia Coleman, Madame Vastra, and of course, River Song, you
know.
And of course, Helen McCrory in Vampires of Venice, which I think
is a stunning performance.
The 2 of them together in that one scene is one of the best
performances, I think Matt gives.
Have you seen her in anything else?
She plays Sherry Blair in something. opposite, you know, Sheen, who
is required by law to play Tony Blair and everything.
Is it the Helen Mirner film?
Yeah, maybe it's the Queen.
Maybe she's in the hair?
Todd's got lots of questions.
I would just finish off with, when you put him against someone of
genuine BAFTA, British heritage, royalty, such as Ms. McCrory.
Oh my goodness, he blows the camera out.
It's just beautiful to us.
You see it early on in the beast below.
She's the bloody queen, mate. those scenes sing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think he could have done another year.
It would have been interesting to see what they would have done
with Clara with him.
Would they have gone down the road?
They go in series 8.
But him leaving at that time, you know, it is what it is and it
does leave you wanting more and I'm okay with that too.
Let's turn our tide back to series 5, and as we sit with it now
our thoughts on that series.
Karen and Arthur and Matt and the themes in there.
I think it vies with series 4 for the title of best new series
series.
It is really, really good.
And it's absolutely, It's that thing, you know, it's like series
one. where it's everything that everyone has been intending to do
with Doctor Who for decades and let's just do this thing and it
works incredibly well.
And Moffatt has clearly been, you know, thinking what would I do
if ever I became Doctor Who Showrunner since he was about 12.
And he has this thing, the fairy tale thing, the thing about
childhood and adulthood, the thing about men being like children
all of that sort of stuff about maturity and also the stuff about
storytelling.
And so it's perfect.
It's a beautiful polished thing.
And we were talking about deep breath just before we recorded.
I've cleaned my teeth home slowly.
And you made the point, Todd, that its biggest flaw is that it's
not the 11th hour and it's because the 11th hour is a perfect
thing in the same way that a Christmas carol is a perfect thing.
These are beautifully, cleverly plotted, well-written, well
offed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look.
And so series 5 is that, I think.
Series 5 has its floors, but it is a great series of Doctor Who.
And it's brilliant where it needs to be.
It starts out well.
It ends brilliantly with Pandorica.
It's got a great Christmas episode tagged on the end, and it's
also got that crucial two-parter in the middle, which is really
amazing.
So what you take away from the season is structurally, it's really
strong.
Yeah.
And it does the thing too, where we've had space arcs in series
one to 4 and this arc is entirely about Amy and whether she is
going to accept adulthood or cling on to her childhood.
And so that's thematically really strong and particularly if
you're a 50 year old watching a TV show intended for kind of 10
year olds.
That's a very urgent theme, I think.
For all of us.
Every modern doctor under RTD and Moffat has one season where it
all comes together.
Unfortunately for Eccleston, it was his one and only season, which
all came together.
But Tennant has series 4.
Capaldi has series 10.
Matt, in a slight reverse or his 1st season is the one where it
all comes together.
And it's just, it's perfect piece of television, isn't it?
I actually think series 8 is strong.
I mean, that's going off top.
It's pretty good.
I mean, there's other seasons which are pretty good and in some
cases excellent, but just their best seasons coalesce and series 5
is an example of that.
So from this season, what's one to watch?
If you had to recommend one.
Victory of the Daleks.
I'd love it.
Okay.
One to watch, one to avoid, and one that flies under the radar.
Can I choose 2 parters for those?
Whatever.
So I think the Angels 2 parter is one to watch.
Phenomenal.
So good.
So great.
And a brilliant cliffhanger.
I think the Silurians 2 parter is one to avoid.
How prescient.
Yeah, no, it's terrible.
And I think that the beast below is massively underrated.
Oh, interesting.
Nice choice.
Yeah, no one can disagree with that, except I think the lodger is
massively underrated.
Yeah it's very good too.
I agree.
I also think vampires of Venice gets overlooked a lot.
It really does, doesn't it?
That was going to be my overlooked because of Miss McCrory.
Yeah.
And even Amy's choice, which I really like, I think, is overlooked
too. like with the...
It's very cleverly timed and played out, isn't it?
very subtle.
It's very funny as well.
I think that that was the thing that I realised as we went through
it this time, I'd never realised just it's written by a sitcom
writer. you know, it's Simon Nye.
It is incredibly cleverly written.
And it's a very knowing, not with a claw hammer against the
kneecaps to every sitcom about older folk in older homes doing
older things together.
Yes, push them off the roof.
I think if they could have got Penelope Keith, they would have
done it to her.
That was a misquote of the mutants.
They're all old people doing old things all together.
Ouch. much like this podcast.
All right, let's jump to series six.
Where do you stand with series 6?
Themes, thoughts.
I think that it does have the problems that we identified, I think
it tries to go places that the show can't successfully go, that it
just doesn't have the weight to deal with.
And I can see what Moffat's going for, but I don't think it quite
comes off.
In spite of that, though, I like the arc, and I like the
continuing sort of thing with the doctor that he is a problem that
he doesn't tell the truth, that he isn't honest with his
companions, and that he puts some through things for that reason.
So you've got a problematic doctor.
You know, who invites everyone to watch him get shot dead by Lake
Silencio, who doesn't tell Amy that he's concerned about her
pregnancy, who doesn't tell Amy and Rory while we're going to the
monastery acid mine thing doesn't say why we're doing that.
And all of that stuff is kind of what I want from the doctor.
I think the end is much better than I remember it being, I think
the initial 2 parter is very good.
I think it's got a lot going for it.
I agree with some of those comments.
Yeah, no, I like the 1st 2 parter, and on our rewatch, I certainly
think the wedding of River Song is a good conclusion, and you
pointed out how it's the reverse structure from the previous year
and I have problems with a number of episodes throughout the
season, but I do appreciate it a lot more Goo babies aside.
Yeah, Peter.
I think it suffers to an extent from living in the shadow of
series five, but I like the fact that it's trying different
things.
What I said structurally about series 5 is kind of the reverse
here in that you've got really good episodes, but they're not the
arc episodes in this season.
You've got episodes like the doctor's wife and the girl who waited
and specifically the god complex, and they, for me, are the
highlights, whereas it feels like they shouldn't be the highlights
feels like it should be.
The opening episode, the closing episode, the big 2 passer in the
middle.
Certainly not the big 2 passer in the middle.
We've got the discovery of Nick Curran too that year.
Yep.
And don't forget, Adam Smith from Series 5, he contributed an
awful lot to the success of that season by directing the 11th hour
and the Angels 2 passer.
Richard, any comments?
I just can't get past the whole.
I'm not going to use the same terms that we did with the pregnancy
thing.
You can't land this And he does his absolute best and sterling
casting, you know, of really, it was miraculous to resurrect Betty
Davis and put her back in the air. and have her to have her do
that myth thing.
But it's just, oh, I'm really surprised there wasn't more of a
backlash, actually.
But maybe that's the point of science fiction and to have us
question and feel queasy.
I don't think it's the point of Doctor Who.
And I really don't know where, and this is just on a narrative
thing.
I just don't see how the character of Amy could come back from
that with any sense of trust or any wish to travel with him
anymore.
I'm going to say something here, and I think it's to do with Amy
is that for me, it's Karen's performance in this season, especially
towards the end, is that I really begin to like Amy a lot more.
I'm not a big fan of hers in series 5 and or necessarily Karen's
acting performances and I think she really grows in series 6 and I
really enjoy her immensely in series 7.
Maybe it's the hair.
I don't know.
Got to get that in.
Do you think it could specifically be the girl who waited because
that's an absolute showcase for her?
She is great in that.
Maybe it's because Amy is a team with Rory, you know, and I love
Arthur so much.
Maybe that's why rather than fighting against the previous season
where she's in love with the doctor sort of thing and and I've
always feel that poor Arthur is an afterthought, you know?
I don't know, maybe it's maybe it's just that storyline where
she's really in love with her husband that helps Nathan.
I'm not sure. articulating it.
She isn't in love with the doctor.
She just wants to jump him. after having a difficult time crawling
through the crash of the Byzantium.
And it is established, isn't it, beyond any doubt in Amy's choice
which is why it's called that, that she will choose Rory O for the
doctor.
And given that she starts the season by escaping from her wedding
by running off with the doctor.
Yeah, you're right.
Perhaps I'm mis remembering my only journey here where I actually
begin to like her a lot sooner than series 6 is actually that 2nd
half of series 5, whereas I really...
That's probably a visceral feeling on your behalf, that you're in
Rory's corner.
And so Amy, what makes her interesting in series 5 is that she's
not a clearly morally delineated character.
Yeah, and I think that's deliberate.
I think that's absolutely deliberate.
I think that we are meant to see.
So we get this synthesis at the end of five, don't we?
Where she says, yes, I'm going to my wedding and my imaginary
friends going to be there and we're both going to run off with him
together at the end.
She gets to have both childhood and adulthood at the same time.
And when she rejects a relationship with Arthur.
She's like embarrassed by Rory in the 11th hour, like she kind of
doesn't want to admit that he's her boyfriend so much so that at
the end of that episode when we see the wedding dress on the back
of the door, we actually don't know who she's going to marry.
Is she going to marry Jeff?
Is she going to marry Rory?
We actually don't know at that point.
So it's only after that that we discovered that, uh, it's after
the Angels 2 parter, isn't it, that we discover that it's Rory.
And that's the synthesis of the childhood versus adult theme
because when you are growing up, you get crushes on people. whereas
when you become an adult, hopefully that turns into something more
and true love and the doctor is a crush and Rory is her true
love.
Yeah.
Okay.
One to watch.
One to avoid.
It can be more than one.
I've got a list.
And ones that fly under the radar, series 6.
I would. watch, I think the two-parter at the beginning is really
great.
It's epic and properly filming and stuff.
I think it's really, really good.
So that's one to watch.
I think the one to avoid is probably night terrors, even though it
has stuff going for it, I think it's pretty terrible, you're
pulling a face.
I am, the one to avoid is clearly gangers.
Oh, yes.
God.
Oh my goodness, yes.
Yes, it's the deer of modern Doctor Who up until Christmas 2017.
Yeah, it is terrible.
Wow.
Tick, tick.
I took both of those boxes.
I will also throw in.
Oh yeah, night terrace is awful.
I hate the game as 2 parter.
I avoid pirates because I just think it falls to pieces.
Yeah, yeah.
And what's the other one?
Let's kill Hitler.
I'm having a conniption.
Like, although there's good stuff in now, I just, I just
struggle.
Do you disagree with the premise of that?
No, we should kill him.
Thank you, Peter, as ever.
No, it's it's the whole, I'm dying on the stairs, secret
dreadful.
Yeah, not even Matt can save that.
Dicks in my mind.
So I just really struggle with it.
Several times in his era, Matt is asked to do the impossible.
And 99% of the time when I was to do that, he pulls it off, but in
that sequence, he doesn't.
Maybe in the Mr. Clever sequence in Nightmare and Silvery doesn't
pull it off, but yeah.
Also, everyone go and watch the gold complex.
That's really great Yeah, yeah.
One to watch.
Yeah.
The god complex.
I don't think it's the script necessarily either.
I think it's Nick Curran, I think is incredible.
Same with girl who waited.
Look, the girl who waited in the gold complex are a 12 punch for
me at the towards the end of the year.
Yeah, and they really need it at that point in the series. really
needed.
They outshine.
And I mean, I know that Stephen's 2 part at the beginning and the
wedding has some great stuff in there, but for me, these 2
outshine.
Maybe it's because they're a little bit more not overly clever.
Like not trying to be overly clever.
Like, I just enjoy them and I think they're solidly directed and
beautifully played by everyone.
They're like a town called Mercy the next year.
They are the gold in Doctor Who.
They are the great standalone episode.
The other one is the doctor's wife, which I think is also just
beautiful.
And beautifully directed.
Yes.
And under the radar?
Got it.
Complex.
Maybe gold complex. closing time is another one, which I've
actually grow to love.
I think closing time is pretty good.
I like wedding of River song in a way that a lot of other people
don't.
Okay, series, let's go to series seven.
Where do we sit with everything now?
How do we feel about it?
Well, I think it's the weakest of the three, but what I never
realised before is how much better the 1st half is than the 2nd
half, and that 1st half with Amy and Rory is really actually quite
great.
I think it's a great run.
It really is.
Every single one of those episodes, has got something to recommend
it even if I like some more than others.
Yeah.
But I also do think that it does flow on to the next couple of
episodes.
I actually do think the 1st 3 car episodes, the snowmen, Pelsis
and John and Rings all have are all very solid.
Then it sort of begins to hit a bit of a speed bump after that.
That 2012 run recaptures some of the Chihuard de Viv of series 5, I
think.
If there was like a series that's really confident in itself.
It knows its characters and it takes you along with it.
Richard?
I was just thinking along the same lines that it feels like a
lovely extension of Christmas going all through the year.
At the time it felt the haphazard nature of of the running of it
the timing of it.
So a late season, beginning after waiting so long since the
Christmas story, but we were treated to some very good things.
I don't think there's any poor story in the 1st mix at all
actually.
Angels is more than we expected and emotionally hits the mark.
I'm coming back.
Power of 3 is a delight because of the casting because of Mark.
And no, actually, see, there are 2 kinds of scripts in this arc
for me, and they're the ones entirely due to Mr. Moffat.
They're the ones that, firstly, when he's at his most empowered at
the beginning of the writing period and, you know, he's on fire
and he's so full of wonderful complex ideas, but they do tend to
take precedence over letting the actors do their job.
And there is a subsumation of the actors in those stories, and
we've mentioned some of them already, where they are working to
please Stephen and not working to their best skills as in working
with each other.
So simpler scripts, which maybe don't deliver as much on paper
such as I wouldn't say gold complex, because that's actually good
on both levels.
But things where the character driven lodge is a really good
example of.
But in this season, just going back to it, you've got, um, say
town called Mercy, which is, you know, a play on an Elmore Leonard
um, Western of the 50s and 60s, and again, very spare writing
where the actors have to do things with their faces and their
pauses and their tones.
And I think we're rewarded when they're just allowed to work.
Sometimes they swing towards one, sometimes to the other, and then
we get a nice balance between the two.
So for me, this season is at its most successful in the quiet
moments where the script is perhaps more paired, and the actors
are allowed to do their work.
One to watch, one to avoid, one that flies under the radar.
A town called Mercy?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's really very good.
One to avoid.
Yeah, it's dismal, isn't it?
I mean, I don't know how you could watch home because you'd wake
up after 40 minutes and suddenly it's over.
Yeah, it's kind of terrible.
What flies under the radar?
Rings of Akatar.
Yeah, maybe Ackerton does.
Really?
I'm sitting here because like these are answers that I would be
giving, you know?
But I also think dinosaurs flies under the radar because I
actually really enjoy it.
I do too.
And I think snowman is another one, which I just keep going back
to all the time.
It's one to watch.
Buds of Akatants, like Doreen's mopeds. fly under the radar.
No, no, rings is definitely.
And I also think the Bells of St.
John also flies out of the red.
I think there's a lot going on there and whenever I come back to
it, I think, oh, it's the bellses and John, and then I watch it
and I go, oh, no, that's actually good.
So when you hit that little sort of dull run of Cold War hide and
journey to the centre of the Tartar, so you think, you know, we're
just marking time here.
Avoid, avoid, avoid.
We also we're forgetting about the Crimson horror, which is
another one, which I think should be applauded. gone chalice.
Although I really enjoy Cold War.
And it is overcast.
Yeah, and that's fine.
And it is a tribute to the champions as we probably mentioned
before.
No, I really, really like that story and everyone plays it
beautifully.
It's a lovely piece.
I like it when it's simple.
And then they're allowed to work and it does feel like a pert.
It feels like a Malcolm Hulk.
It's pared down novelette.
Yeah.
And something we haven't mentioned that really works for the era
really elevates it is the Christmas episodes.
So Matt gets four, like David had four, and like Capaldi gets
four.
And 3 out of 4 are amazingly good.
And they really bring the era up, I think.
Well, one of my questions on my sheet here is about the Christmas
specials and how as a group, they compare to tenants and what you
think of each of those episodes.
I agree with you.
I think a Christmas carol is just perfectly crafted.
The snowman, I adore the snowman.
Yeah, it's great.
I think it's my favourite only because I get brain drained from
watching a Christmas carol because they can all, you know, timey
whimey. and time of the doctor.
I really enjoy now. good.
And then there's the doctor and the widow and the wardrobe.
And nobody dies.
That's something that is a real positive in, I guess, that. thought
you would hate that.
Yeah, they're positive for you.
Oh, no.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm trying to find the good in it, but it is like the worst of
them as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, I think there's just nothing very much there and there's a
lot of kind of filling in time and it is that sort of thing where
it's kind of like, oh, I've got to do another one of these, you
know, what's a Christmas book that we love?
But something needs to happen when they go into Narnia.
You know what I mean?
Like there needs to be the horrible queen.
There needs to be something in there, not just acid rain.
Yeah, there's no villain, and that's kind of a problem, I think.
Russell's Christmas specials were always entertaining, but they
were rarely amongst the best that each year had to offer, whereas
a lot of Moffat's Christmas specials are among the best of the
year.
Yeah.
Yeah, that thing.
I mean, Christmas Carol is so surprising because all of the others
have been just very much the sort of thing that you can watch when
you're you're having a kind of post-Christmas lunch coma. and you
don't have to pay complete attention to it.
And that's a deliberate choice and it's the right choice.
And then to have Moffatt come along and do something complex and
interesting and heartbreaking and just magical.
The up to that point, voyage of the damned is my favourite because
I actually think it's the most entertaining of all of and most
substantial of all of the RTD ones.
That's just for me anyway.
All right, it's time to snog marry a void.
Claire Skinner, Tasha Lem, or Kate Stewart?
Sorry.
I would marry Tasha Lamb.
Snogger, so that works.
Yeah, she's fabulous.
She's a Romulan, you know.
And I think she's sort of really funny and likeable, and the
doctor clearly kind of likes her, so, and, you know, he's got good
taste in women, I suppose.
Does he?
I don't know.
I can't tell it's not my area.
Marilyn Monroe.
Yeah, that's true.
The Queen?
And I, and I would, I would snog Claire Skinner.
She's quite nice.
I think she's rather sweet. and I would avoid what's her face
because she's absolutely phoning it in.
Right.
And Peter agrees he's not in there.
I love for Kate Stewart.
What's your?
If she's turning it in, you can have phone sex with her.
I really love...
The same characters?
Yes.
Well, I've always loved Tasha Yar.
I thought she was just superb, if a little Olly Edge in a sinner
later career.
I'd really love Claire Skinner, and I've seen her in other things
and there's just...
Again, I'd probably Snog Bill Bailey.
Because he's really underserviced, so he'll be definitely
needing.
And he's also just so brilliant and funny.
And again, it's those things that, I mean, there's nothing for him
to do, but that face.
So, yeah, if it was Tashi Yaklisk, you know, I think you could
marry Arabella Weir.
She's played the doctor.
You'd really want quiet times though.
She could wait a bit shouty.
You know, it's like having a, I'm having a really lovely fun manic
time with, you know, one of your favourite people.
I won't mention anyone right now.
I look at someone on the series anyway.
We know she can cook.
Well, she can cook.
Yeah, I mean, it's like snogging Bonnie Langford or living with
Bonnie Langford.
I mean, do you really want to hear those scales?
No, both.
Every morning?
Scales every morning?
Yes.
Well, I am going to marry Tasha...
No, no, the skin of evil.
Tasha Lem.
I'm going to avoid Claire Skinner because just can't stand her
voice.
And I will therefore snog Kate Stewart even though she's phoning
it in.
Brilliant.
It's a slight overbite there too.
I'd be...
Oh, just not Kate Stewart.
She got a more blank face than her dad, and I'm talking about the
end of series, he's a cyberman.
Oh dear.
All right.
Matt's outfit change from series 5 to the end of series 7.
Certainly a lot more tailored and costume.
Like, what do we think about that change from the Raggedy Man
through the green coat to the fun?
Yes, Richard.
I was really wondering why Marvel was allowed to dictate how the
action figures would be made from now on because it really just
feels like something you'd buy, you know, from a stand rather than
in an op shop.
But then so does Jody's and that's actually bought in an option
not working on anything. for me right now.
I don't like it when it's so designed.
Then I love Tom's season 18, so there you go.
Well, that's June Hudson, though.
Yes, yes.
She's crazy.
Why wasn't she asked?
I don't like it at all.
The final costume?
No, awful.
And it's the Doctor Who thing.
I think that over that last 10 years of the classic series where
everyone wore a coat that went to their knees, I think it was
absolutely the right thing to avoid.
And so Sylvester McCoy's costume comes as a bit of a relief.
And the previous costumes all kind of avoid that, I guess, maybe
Eccleston.
I love the series 5 series 6 costume that Matt wears.
I think it's really terrific.
I like the green coat.
Yeah, sweet.
But I really dislike the purple.
I think it's it's too designed.
It's too much like a Doctor Who outfit.
It sort of reflects the change in Matt's performance as well and
he's a bit more straitjacketed by this costume that he's wearing
rather than that kind of free-wheeling energy that he had in the
early days.
Now, that's a really important point and something June Hudson did
allude to in one of the DWMs is that the costume and she was
talking about what she designed with Lala, not for Lala.
She said, I believe we always get a much more expressive
performance from our actors when they are involved in the
costuming and are allowed to imbue their character in with the
design.
And it's certainly true of an architectural space as well, whether
that be domestic or something that's done for the public, a
theatre or whatever.
There is a sense of when you have community involvement or you're
thinking about what's going to go on with what you're designing.
It will imbue the colour of the performance, and that's absolutely
what happens here, and I think possibly why we don't like it.
The fact that it's super designed isn't itself aesthetically
questionable, but it really does constrain the actor's
performance.
I also think the fact that we're not exactly in love with that
last series 7 V, you know, and he's wearing that coat, sort of
ties into that too, you know?
But I do agree.
I just think having the shorter coat is quite an interesting thing
like the observation, I should say, that, you know, it just we're
not in the long coats, which make it a costume, really.
Who goes around with that unless it's winter, I guess.
And Russell made that very clear.
He wanted it just to be one step away from what you're wearing in
the street or with, in Chris's case, a Barnsley accountant on a
cheeky Friday off with the secretary.
But, you know, what they do when they think they're being hit, what
straight boys do when they want to look cool.
But yeah, it should be something that's accessible to a young
fan.
We're gonna talk about something that Stephen really goes for
which is the families, the families of our lead.
So let's talk about Amy's family.
She's got an aunt, a mum and dad.
Any thoughts?
Oh, she's got that thing that hangs down from the ceiling.
Sheila Reed.
That's unfair.
I mean, you know, I know she doesn't observe her boundaries, but
that's harsh.
I like having relatives to keep an eye on you.
What do you think about the families that he creates?
Maybe I'll phrase it this way.
We've got Amy's family.
Aunt, mum, and dad, Rory's family.
Brian, Clara's family, dad, mum, Linda, and Gran, Rivers family
her mum and dad, and the Paternoster family, Bastro Jenny
Instracts.
What do you think about the families that are created outside of
the court for?
Well, I mean, the only real proper family that's created is the
Paternoster gang, and it's, I've said this before, that it's
absolutely typical that Moffat should create a sort of series of
secondary characters who, uh, you know, like a married couple, one
of whom is a Silurian, and, you know, their Santarian Butler, that
that's the sort of thing that they're very sort of strange and
Doctor Who-ish. and we've seen him fish into his toy box full of
action figures before, for, you know, the finale of the era in
time of the doctor and for the finale of series 5.
And I think they're really good.
I think they're really funny.
They're not at all the sort of thing that Russell wants to do
which is to create a kind of TV family that you might see in
another show.
Soap, which is RTD, the other feels more poor Cornell, as in comic
book writing, because the characters and the way they assemble is
a very comic DC Marvel way of doing it, which is quirky and fun
and very contemporary.
I think, you know, Russell is much more aware of what's going on
in TV generally and what makes for good successful television than
Moffatt.
And I think, you know, Moffatt's a very skilled TV writer with
sort of a particular set of talents.
And so he's not interested in doing that thing.
He's not interested in creating a family that's like a
recognisable family from another TV show.
Do you think that's a problem?
Look, personally, I like the families in Russell a lot.
It's one of the most important reasons that that's my favourite
era of Doctor Who is, you know, Jackie, Francine, Sylvia. like
they're all just wonderful, Neres, Annalise.
Russell is aware of the comedy value of a family.
That's not Steven's mode of comedy.
The only family that Stephen's interested in is the one that we're
interested in, the nuclear family, Amy, Rory, River, the doctor.
That's the family he's interested in.
Brian works, but...
Yeah, oh, yeah.
Brian's cool.
And Brian is in, you know, basically in 2 episodes, isn't he?
And they're the 2 Chibnal episodes.
Is that all he's in?
And I just think it's such tremendously great casting and both of
those episodes are properly funny.
And so Mark Williams is perfect.
It works so well that when Chen will become showrunner, he tries
to recapture lightning in a bottle with Graham.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, Graham's fitfully funny, but, um, I think.
Who said cream's fit and funny?
fitfully, like, in fits.
Do you think that Matt's doctor should have on the main show met
any classic companions?
Obviously, he was in the Sarah Jane Adventures with Aunt Joe. It's
gorgeous.
It's really good Oh, yes.
It's wonderful.
Is there any classic companion that you could ever have seen on
the main series with him in an episode if you had to write
something?
Dodo?
Yeah, I knew you were going to say that.
Well, in no way following that statement at all.
I was so excited at the thought that it's a 50th anniversary.
At last, Carol Anne Ford gets to make a reappearance, and I
thought the sheet was cruel, and there was no reason for her to
put her under a sheet, and, you know, so... with Pete and the
silver coal.
What was the question?
I've forgotten too, God.
Chameleon?
Nissa?
Chameleons in all of them.
I...
Chameleon isn't all of it.
I agree, Katie Manning should have been in this series.
I don't want to see any old companions back.
Does that make me a bad person?
Yeah, very on that.
I just, I'm done with that.
No, you're very dark personally.
Well, Nathan, what about returning monsters?
How do you think in this era, the Daleks, the Cyberman, the
Centaurans?
Ice where is the cellarines and the great intelligence are handled
versus something like the silence or the angels?
I don't think he cares for Daleks at all.
And so he does some Dalek stories, but they're not at all about
the Daleks.
I mean, the big Dalek story asylum of the Daleks.
He's entirely about Amy and Rory's relationship and the Daleks
aren't really the focus at all.
So I don't think he's that interested in the Daleks.
I don't think he's that interested in any of those things.
I mean, you start seeing Cybermen come along in stories that
aren't Cybermen's stories, like in, you know, Pandora or
whatever.
He just sees them as part of the Doctor Who aesthetic, but he
doesn't want to write stories about them.
He wants to write. doing it because he thinks he should.
Yeah, yeah, he's much more interested in his own, much more
interesting villains and monsters, like the silence and the
angels.
And in the people, you know, like he's interested in telling
stories about the Dr. Amy and Rory or the doctor and Clara and
he's not that interested in telling stories about the sidemen at
all.
And the one thing that he does, I think, is the great intelligence
where he brings that back, gives it a proper backstory that
doesn't ruin it, and creates a pretty entertaining update of that
concept.
Okay, fair enough.
I think the Simon thing's interesting because I think Stephen
actually uses the Simon a lot more than, say, the Daleks. and I
really like it in the series 5 finale where you've got the lone
side with all of the tentacles coming out of the head.
He tries to do something different there.
But it is a case of, well, I'll pay lip service to it because when
Amy gets taken in series 6, I'd expected then some sort of we're
going to have to search for her.
But instead, you just get the big cyberman fleet at the beginning
of the next episode and then they're done.
You know, it's like 5 minutes and you're gone.
He sort of creates an in-story reason why there's a giant break in
the middle of that series.
So there's a giant brake so that Matt can go off and find the baby
which I think is kind of cute, like the in-story reason why there
isn't a series 5 with David Tennant because he decides he doesn't
want a companion at the end of Planet of the Dead and he's not
going to do a series this year.
Yeah, but also, I mean, I think, you know, if we talk about the
Centaurans and Solurians, he's not interested in doing them the
way that they're traditionally done.
Like, let's have the one off characters that are not necessarily
indicative of their race.
So a different twist.
Rather than mining those kind of B list aliens, like the Silurians
we need it and still need a really good auton 2 parter.
Yeah, he's gone back with the autons.
There are autons in Pandora.
Yeah, but, you know, we need a story built around them.
We need a Zigon 2 partter for the autons.
Yeah, yeah.
What are the most successful monsters here in this in this era for
you?
One off or other created by Stephen?
The silence are a pretty amazing concept.
Yeah, and they look great.
Yeah, yeah.
They are freaky.
Well, I mean, they're a bit like the angels. you know, it's
usually just a sort of weird high concept thing where the angels
sort of interfere with the way the story is told, you know, like
all the, although the angels move, we don't get to see that happen
because as the audience, we're looking at them so they can't move
while we're looking at them with the exception of that one moment
in Forest of the Dead, and then the silence who justify the gaps
in the storytelling, you know, like we don't get to see the bit
that the silence is in because the characters can't remember it.
And so it is very high concept and they're both monsters that have
an effect on how the narrative goes.
Such a meta structural critique of how film is it.
It's so French.
It's so, it is.
It's so many. can't make that claim for the ice warrior.
Not generally, no.
Oh, I would have to say river song.
And reasons for that because Mel is, you know, a point of danger
to not just, you know, not just to the characters, but to the
structure of the season, indeed, of Doctor Who.
River Song has the power to completely pull apart what Doctor Who
is.
You can't imagine this era without her, can you?
I didn't like her at the time.
I've got to say, I don't know if I was the only one in the room
about that.
I just thought Alex is very good and has a lovely breezy, again, a
lovely 1940s American, not really slapstick, more of that, a
screwgall comedy style, but the cool girl comedy style I've talked
about before.
But I actually think she handles it really, really well because in
many ways it is a one note character, she just is there to play
sass.
It's a lovely knowing quality, isn't it?
Yeah.
But then there's moments where, so she's injured by the angel in
angels take that hat.
It swings for me an angel's take Manhattan.
She's allowed to show vulnerability.
I know she's done it before, but there's that sense of, ah, there's
the human underneath and there's the fragility and there's that
you're actually on panic stations the entire time we see you
aren't you?
Nothing is assured in your life.
I like the last kiss in the series 6 opening 2 parter where we're
warned that the last kiss for her is coming and then we see it
happen.
She kisses him goodbye.
He's never experienced that before.
And so she now knows that we've reached that stage of the
relationship where she never gets to kiss him goodbye again.
And I think she plays that beautifully.
And that's, you know, it's such a science fiction thing, but you
can still understand how to feel about it.
I think it's very good I like that superb opening sequence in the
time of angels where she escapes and she's really, she's really
Catherine Hepburn in that.
Yeah, no, that's a that's a beautiful moment.
Yeah.
I just want the revenge of the attracti.
Why didn't that ever happen?
They're great.
You know, that could have been fun.
They looked like they were having a ball.
The opening titles for the Matt Smith era and the music goes with
them.
Obviously, we've got two sets of titles eventually.
How do you feel about the titles sequence?
this era.
Well, I think we decided the 1st title, the series 5 and 6 title
looks like a colonoscopy, doesn't it, really?
Second one looks like the mill threw up in a kaleidoscope.
Yeah, yeah, I don't like the 2nd one at all.
So I don't think either of them are very good.
I think the music's okay, but the various David Tennant related
versions that we got during the RTD era, I think, are pretty
great.
I think I canola's version of the theme is really great.
I don't think that the theme during Moffat's time on the show is
all that good.
I do like the little intro sequence that he introduces right at
the beginning.
It's always with me for this, the little horns thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, however, okay.
I'm not musically inclined.
I think it is a sad truth of modern Doctor Who, that every time
the title sequence and the title music changes, it gets a little
bit worse.
Oh, ow.
Speaking of words, here are a list of people you may know.
Well, actually some are better than others.
Amelia.
Mandy and Timmy, Elliot, young Kazran, little regenerating girl
Toby Avery, Adam, young Mel's, young Rory, George, Cyril, and Lily
Arwell.
No, actually, they're okay.
Laura, the robot girl, Digby and Francesca and young Walter, Angie
and Artie, Maitland, Mary, young Clara, Barnable.
There are a list of child actors from this era.
Do you think there's too many of them?
Half of them are pretty charming.
Toby Avery.
Toby Avery is very good.
Young Amy.
Yeah, young Amy's.
Amelia is fantastic.
Toby Avery's great.
Young Cozran's, yeah, great.
I do actually like Cyril and Lily.
Yeah, I do too.
Barnable Edwards is not too bad.
Tom Tom.
Tom, Tom, Tom, Tom.
That's the worst dad joke.
And I just don't care.
Like, you didn't care for that question.
But Todd, tell us about some ones you didn't like.
No, no, don't. time.
Okay, so, Fraser.
The little boy from Night Terrors.
Tell us about him.
George.
Yeah, he's quite well directed.
He really plays it well. yeah.
Yeah, I think that he's given very simple things to do.
And so it's a good thing?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they direct around him and that's a beautifully directed story
even if it's not that good a story.
Speaking of directors.
Peter mentioned some of these people before.
Here's some names.
Jamie Payne.
Time of the Doctor Hyde.
Nick Curran, day of the doctor, asylum, angels, golf complex, the
girl who waited.
Saw Metstein, name of the doctor, Crimson Horror, Snowman, Mercy
Dinosaur, Toby Haynes, Impossible Astronaut, Day of the Moon
Christmas Carol, Big Bang, Pandora, Adam Smith, 11th hour, Time of
the Angels, Flesh, and Stone.
Richard Clark, who does night terrors, and the doctor's wife.
Yeah, see, they're all good, aren't they?
They're all really good.
I mean, I...
Yeah.
RTD had sort of solid directors, but you've got these new cameras
under Moffat and you've got a bit more money and you've got high
definition and stuff.
And so you get directors like Harran who just do incredible
things.
Adam Smith as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. proper visual style and proper like Nick Curran
in particular is good no matter the quality of the material.
So you mentioned Jamie Payne there.
Jamie Payne is also good.
I think he does a sterling job of the time of the doctor, but he
can't really save hide.
Yeah.
Metstein, I think, is really good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he sort of see series 7 specific, isn't it?
My vote is for Saul, just not just for consistency of quality, but
with the surprising things he does and the variation in what he
achieves and subtleties.
And yeah, and he's visually explorative and creative.
But you're right.
Everyone who you've mentioned there goes out of their way to not
do what's expected on TV.
It's the inverse of 1980s Doctor Who.
In the moth ad era, it's a shock when something is not well
directed.
Yeah, and I would point towards the gangers, which I think is a
bad script absolutely massacred by its director and cast who, you
know, might also be massacred by their director.
Is there a pivotal moment in this era that sticks in your mind
like that just either sums it up or just is just there that you
kind of go, this is Doctor Who, for me, this is Matt Smith, this
is it?
Is it the cliffhanger in the middle of the angels story where the
Graham Norton little animated?
He's determined to ruin our show.
Fish fingers encosted an Amelia.
Absolutely nails it for me.
And I thought, you're actually the doctor I've been waiting for
since Tom.
And that's just my little fanboy child's 12 year old person.
I felt 12 again.
The worst is we've already seen it.
It's, um, and she plays it beautifully.
Karen and Madame Kawalkian together.
It's unforgivable for me and I almost stopped watching.
I think it's incredible that the absolute best moments of the era
are the very start and the very end.
There's a lot of great stuff in between.
But for me, the highlights of Matt Smith's time as the doctor. time
of the doctor, and the 1st thing that he shoots time of angels.
I think those episodes absolutely knock it out of the park.
A product energy, isn't there, in time of angels?
Yeah, there is Time of Angels, it roars with new style.
I think I think Paul Cornell described Delta and the Bannerman as
that one.
It's true, too.
It's true too, yeah.
It's really incredible.
It steps everything up in the writing and the production, and then
you have a really successful era, and for my money, you come back
and have the saddest and most emotional farewell to a doctor ever
in time of the doctor.
I think it's pretty amazing.
They're tent poles.
That moment where Clara kneels down in front of the doctor, because
he can't pull the Christmas cracker, he's too weak because he's so
old and she holds it and pulls it, like she's kind of looking
after her grandfather or something.
I think that's incredible.
So good.
And the scene where she's talking to the time lords through the
crack.
If you love him and you should.
So good.
But I think that I genuinely think that one thing you never put in
a trap speech at the end of angels is pretty great.
And it's one of those sort of let's showcase the doctor.
I guess him telling the Atraxi to run at the end, that's
deliberately engineered, touch the...
Well, it's the moment he becomes the doctor.
He puts the bow tie on.
He steps forward through the montage of other doctors and says, I'm
the doctor, basically run.
And the delivery of that line is so perfect.
It's really, you know, gave all these dead theps behind me. that's
right.
But yes, I'm going to go back to Richard and it's that fish
fingers and custard moment in that dialogue where he says, well
I'm talking about the crack in your wall. and just got to me like
you know, he became the doctor in that moment.
That was just, I think, extraordinary.
In that moment where he's being all light and childish with Amy
and then he drops and says, that must be one hell of a scary crack
in your wall.
It's also a very kind of moffety thing to have him deduce that.
You know, that the doctor as conceived by Moffat and maybe Matt
more than Peter is someone who makes deductions.
And so he's deduced that the wall is the important thing because
Amelia is so unfazed by all the other weird stuff. that's
happening in that scene.
Fraser Gregory.
Says in 10 years time, what do you think your overriding memory
impression of the era will be?
Joy.
Yeah, I think it'll still be highlight.
Yeah, 3 years when you get utterly rely on Doctor Who.
A narcic, creative, dangerous, on a spin.
And we know what Mr. Moffat was going through in the middle of
this, so and I definitely reflecting what we see on screen.
Yeah, it's so much energy.
And a climax in the 50th where all of fandom was celebrating the
show.
And the wider poppy shows.
It was huge, wasn't it?
And a really successful special with the day of the doctor and
then a really beautiful goodbye with time of the doctor.
I mean, poetic, isn't it?
How did that go in the US?
I wasn't on that one when we recorded it.
How did Day of the Doctor do outside of the UK, Todd, as a...
Do you remember?
The figures for it?
Broadly successful all around the world.
Well, the Matt Smith era is the most successful in... it now?
I thought that was tenant.
No, no, absolutely not.
Really?
Yeah.
Is that because of promotion?
There was a real attempt to do it and to make it a jumping on
point as well.
You know, you've got an automatic jumping on point.
Remember also the little thing where Amy narrated the premise of
the show at the beginning of the thing.
So it was very definitely intended to try and garner an audience
and then you've got the shooting on location in the United States
at the beginning of series 6 and so on.
And it's an unremarked upon fact, the Doctor Who, during the Matt
Smith era, moved more towards generic sci-fi fantasy stateside and
provided, you know, not very much.
It was still essentially Doctor Who-ish, but in that team of the
doctor and Amy and Rory.
You had a team of leads who you could transpose to something like
supernatural and it would still work.
Yes, I think my overall thing in 10 years time, it's the 4 of
them.
It's the doctor, Amy, Rory, and River, and finding out who she is
and the bringing of that family together.
That just sits with me.
I think the fact that Amy and Maury dominate the era so much for
2.5 years, and Matt, Matt's boyish enthusiasm, the old man trapped
in the young man's body, the way he portrays that, I think they're
the things that, you know, plus that theme music at the beginning
just is something that I sort of take with me.
I think you'll still be talking about Lily and Cyril in 10 years
time.
Another final listener question.
Nathan Botomley.
So what is the best story of the Matt era?
Is that what I ask?
Yes.
What is the best story?
Very imaginative.
Have you met your podcast?
The best story of Matt Tera.
I am going to say, is, I'm going to say that Pandora opens in the
Big Bang.
But I'm probably wrong.
I mean, the angels two-parter is incredible.
I think town called Mercy is incredible.
But that two-parter and just everything that happens there and the
way that it's so much about Moffatt's approach to the show as a
series of stories that Doctor Who isn't a world where a time lord
has adventures, it's a type of story that you can tell and that
nearly becomes completely explicit in that two-parter.
It's very, very central to Moffatt's kind of conception of what
he's doing when he's running the show.
So, and plus it's just really entertaining.
Time of angels, 2 passer, buy a hair, buy a hair on Pretty Angel
Bob's head.
Victory of the Daleks, obviously.
So much fun. really liked it.
Has anyone mentioned angels in Manhattan?
Yeah, okay.
Maybe that one.
And not for the reasons I would have thought whilst watching it
but just in hindsight, there's a gorgeous sense of what we are now
about to lose.
Yeah.
And it's got the centrality of storytelling as well.
It's really well told.
Yeah.
I think they're all great.
Like it's so hard to choose.
I keep going coming back to the 11th hour. which I adore.
It's perfect storytelling, isn't it?
You know, and a Christmas carol is at the other end of that
season.
Even though I'm saying it's not my favourite.
The way it's written is just so incredibly clever.
We tend to bookend the Christmas stories, but they are possibly, if
I had a favourite, yes, the snowman and Christmas Carol would be
favourites.
I've got the Jenny Laird Award nominations, if there's any, to be
given to anyone.
How many children did you mention?
Thank you, Richard.
We'll go with that for me, although it was going to be something
to do with the direction of nightmare in silver, I think.
Oh, no, it's shockingly poorly directed, really quite amateu-ish.
I think maybe that is it, that you give him a really good director
for his 1st story.
I'm talking gamen, and then Gaiman starts to develop the feeling
that this is the sort of thing that Doctor Who can routinely do.
And then you give this guy the job of doing the 2nd Neil Gaiman
script, which is not as strong as the 1st one and then is
completely blown out of the water by how amateurishly it's
directed.
It's a big, big, weird creative choice.
I think the entirety of the gangers 2 parter.
It just doesn't sit well with me.
There's kernels of good ideas in there, which don't go anywhere.
The performances are all really off and I've seen some of those
performance in other roles and they've been absolutely fine.
I can only imagine it's the direction.
But it's weird performance ticks and the whole thing is an
unsettling mess.
The melange, isn't it, of kernel mustard in the spa with the latex
dildo?
Nothing is coming together well.
Did you use the D word?
Possibly.
I know what your Jenny Laird award is, besides the prevalence
child actors.
It's the nudity in time of God.
Oh, the nudity in the time of the doctor. doesn't, it's a bit...
I didn't see it.
Yeah.
Is it cut out?
It's also the appalling wig they put on Matt because now I've seen
it.
I can't unsee it. you know what I mean?
Like I just keep looking, that's not his hair.
That's not right. about Amy's hair at the end?
That's a wig as well.
That's her choice.
Amy's choice.
It does feel very true Ronnie's Christmas special, doesn't it?
Once they get their wigs out.
Where is this going to go?
Well, from the worst to the best, or our Bonnie Langford, for the
most startling discovery or moment in this entire era.
I think I'm going to give it to Nick Curran.
I'm going to give it to Nick Curran because he does some Sherlock
I think, as well, and he establishes the visual style of that
show.
I think he's amazing.
He's the one possible person that you could have got back to do
the day of the doctor.
That was absolutely the right choice because that was such an
important episode.
He's really really good.
And I think that he introduces something completely novel in the
way that the god complex is told.
I think that Doctor Who has never been as visually adventurous as
that, not even in his previous story, which is also very stylish.
But yeah, he's incredible.
I might give the Bonnie Langford to James Corden because he is
extremely marmite.
Maybe more on the dislike than the like side for a lot of people
but I think that those 2 episodes, closing time in the lodger, give
him a sympathetic character to play and he actually rises to the
occasion.
He's good He's a good performer and he plays very, very well.
You know, and we have to also always remember that the actor is
not the personality of the, you know, the performer.
They are different species and his work should not be IOD'd with
who he is as a person.
Um, because then we wouldn't really like many people, would we?
Yeah, and to give Matt his due, he's a very generous leading man
see him giving space to James Corden to build that relationship
between them because the episode specifically the lodger relies on
that.
And he's smart enough to know that always reflects well on him
because those silent moments you're actually watching the doctor.
So you go back to, oh, you're quiet.
I'm going to look at you.
Mine would be Caitlin, younger, Amelia.
She's just adorable.
You just, that was mine.
Well, I don't have it too.
We can share.
You can have Stormageddon.
You can have the slippers and I'll have the dressing gown.
We can both cosplay her.
And otherwise as an umbrella, it's the discovery of Saul, Mr
Metstein.
Just delightful.
Yeah, we've got a big episode to direct.
Better call Saul.
Boom Tish.
Yeah, Caitlin.
Like if she hadn't worked at the beginning of that episode. then
and obviously matters well, but I wanted the moment that it goes
from young Amelia to Amy, I just went, oh, I did.
I did that as well at the time.
I did at the time.
I just thought, I want that character.
This is not what I'm getting.
Anyway, that's my one moment in that 11th hour, but anyway.
That's for history.
You see Amy all the way through, don't you?
See young Amy, Karen Gill and Amy, old Amy, and the girl who
waited, and then the horrible vision of future with Grandma Etta.
That will be coming round for you.
Moving forward.
Series 8 Thoughts, expectations, discoveries, where does it sit
with you as we embark on this next journey?
I think series 8 is Moffat's most RTD style series and it does
start to create a world for Jenna to inhabit, like it starts to
kind of do something about her character.
I also think that Moffatt ups his game a bit because he's got
Capoldi and he doesn't want to embarrass himself or Capoldi after
you know, actually getting him, which I think was a bit of a coup
even though he's the most tragic fanboy in human history.
Yeah, that's right.
It's episode 253 of flight through entirety.
So I'm looking forward to it.
I think it's going to be really interesting.
I am less certain about series nine.
I'm actually looking forward to going back and looking at that
again because I haven't been back there and so I don't really know
what I think of it.
I think series 8 is going to be better than I think it is, and I
think it's pretty good.
I'm with you in that I think series 8 is a bit criminally
underlooked by others, maybe because of a few faults that sort of
beacon out or glare out, but I actually think that it's actually
pretty solid.
There's some missteps, but I think it's terribly underrated.
I'm just looking forward to seeing what those missteps are and
also what they're doing with the character of the doctor, which I
didn't sit well with me at the time, even though I actually quite
like the final journey, but that's for another time.
So seriously, it's going to be really interesting. absolutely
everything you've said, yeah, but I'm be curious to see how he can
top this.
And by topping, I just mean vary from it because there's so many
wildly cearing, not always successful, but certainly sitting on
that roller coaster is not doll.
So, sorry, journey to the TARDIS, but you know, I sort of, that
was a bathroom break for me.
But otherwise, yeah, I'm really interested to see, and again, I
haven't watched it since it was shown.
So how that's going to flow for us all.
Very excited about Capaldi.
Do you remember the bars of, Oh, thank goodness, it's him.
Yeah. when the announcement came through.
Did you feel like that, Todd, when you heard Capaldi's announced?
Yeah, bit of a shrug from my end.
No, I just spent...
I just didn't, it was sort of like, it was expected to be him.
Was it?
That's what I felt in the days later.
It was sort of like that was the name.
And so then it was like, oh, okay.
Thank goodness it is.
Like, I was a big fan of the thick of it.
I was definitely into...
Yeah, absolutely right.
All right, my final question.
Snog, Mario, void.
Matt Smith.
John Hurt, David Tennant.
Um, I'm gonna snog Matt Smith.
I am definitely going to marry John Hurt.
Yeah.
Um, but we'll avoid takeaway Chinese food, obviously.
And I'm going to avoid David Tennant. the teeth.
Yeah, I'll avoid all of them.
My heart still belongs to John Pertway.
I couldn't agree more, although Sean's pretty good runner up these
days.
I like David Tennant.
I going out on a limb here less and less with every passing year
and yet I was delighted to see him at the end of the season we've
just seen in his motley crew mix-up, little suit, doing his teeth
thing.
He really can carry the energy.
He's completely convincing as a doctor by to find him so actively
in what he does in a way that totally different that I found Matt
completely natural, slightly panicked, a very perfect.
He is the perfect era.
Well, I marry Matt.
I've also seen Matt naked in several interviews, in several
interviews in several, that, no, that's in my head in several
photos and I'm perfectly happy to have a long term with Matt
following that.
And also he really knows how to kick balls.
So after that, sportingly, who are we avoiding?
John Hurt would be a lot of fun to hang out with as well.
It's funny, isn't it?
Because David Tennant is the acme of what I think the general
public see the doctor as and like Peter Poggy may be for fans, what
they say.
And Matt Smith somehow manages to be both.
Exactly right.
Well, there, sir, that's all we have time for now.
We'll be back later in the year to group the mighty eyebrows of
Peter Capaldi in our coverage of Series 8.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us at flights for entirety on Facebook, at
FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, flightthroughentirety
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger
Jody interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek Project.
Until next time, we'll always remember when the doctor was Matt.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
See you soon Raggedy man, good night.
And happy bond fingering, if you so choose.
That was Flight to Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan
Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and Richard Stone.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lowe.
This episode, comedy to high drama, was recorded on the 12th of
December 2022 and released on New Year's Day, 2023.
We're taking some time off now to start work on our coverage of
the Capoli era, and we'll be back in your podcatcher in April.
But let's remember, the real podcast was always the friends we
made along the way.
See you soon.
Let's move on to, well, actually, before we move on, Matt's
costume does change, this season from Raggedy Man in towards the
end of this season, is it closing time or is it before then that
it changes?
No, no, it actually changes halfway through series seven.
No, he means the big brown coast and everything.
The big green coat.
Yeah, he puts on one of those.
They used to be able to buy them in the 80s at op shops that were
German.
No, let's okay, uniform coat.
Let's scrub that.
I'll talk about Matt's outfit.
All I would say is I like the costume change because again, they're
doing things that young fans could actually go to an op shop and
buy.
And those cavalry coats were around, you know, back in the 90s in
gray and that colour green.
So whoever was costuming for this one, I don't recall who that was
but I like that sense of the kids can actually do this.
It really, really works nicely in the same way that Tom's one
did.
It brings an immediacy to the audience and lets them be the doctor
in a lovely way.
Well, you can get question mark pullovers at any op shop.
All right.
Thanks for the sympathy laugh, Nathan.
That got a side.
That was to go into a, it's a, uh, now we're just putting
interstitial in there.
I've got a sigh.
They got a sigh of memory there, didn't it?
Yeah.
Okay, series, let's go to series seven.
Where do we sit with everything now?
How do we feel about it?