WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:37:26 1 00:00:40.500 --> 00:00:50.880 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that remembers with considerable fondness are Jadun Platoon upon the moon. 2 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:52.740 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:54.000 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:54.060 --> 00:00:54.719 I'm Simon. 5 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:55.740 I'm Colin. 6 00:00:55.799 --> 00:01:03.539 Well, we've got 45 minutes also to make a decision, and those spider bacteria are starting to scratch pretty hard at the walls. 7 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:06.000 So what do you all think? 8 00:01:06.060 --> 00:01:09.239 Should we or shouldn't we kill the moon? 9 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:46.260 I have to just come out straight away and say that I think this one is pretty great. 10 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:47.700 Yes. 11 00:01:47.819 --> 00:01:49.379 I'd agree with that assessment. 12 00:01:50.340 --> 00:01:51.780 Okay. 13 00:01:52.859 --> 00:01:59.099 I'm less in agreement, but my problems with it are many. 14 00:01:59.219 --> 00:02:07.980 A lot of people like to criticise this episode purely for the concept that the moon is an egg, whereas I actually think that's, there's nothing particularly wrong with that. 15 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.759 I just think everything else is actually what's wrong with this episode. 16 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:33.960 Well, let's let's go back to the beginning of the episode because I think that that's super telling, and I've always sort of said that the teasers where you say what the episode is about, and particularly the last couple of seconds of the teaser are the most important thing, that that's when you establish what your episode's going to be about. 17 00:02:34.020 --> 00:02:50.280 And so here we, as the Doctor Who audience, are being addressed by Clara, who is on a television screen, who tells us that we have 45 minutes to make a decision about, you know, and it's a trolly problem sort of decision. 18 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:57.000 And so this is very much an episode that is interrogating us. 19 00:02:57.060 --> 00:03:05.039 And I don't think it's interrogating us purely, you know, do we let the trolly roll over the fat man or whatever. 20 00:03:05.099 --> 00:03:09.240 Like, I don't think it's essentially about being a trolly problem. 21 00:03:09.300 --> 00:03:11.699 But I do think it's about Doctor Who itself. 22 00:03:11.939 --> 00:03:17.939 And do we want more Doctor Who or not, essentially, is the question that we're being asked. 23 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.740 Can you explain that? 24 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:21.120 Yeah, I think so. 25 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:27.060 So when we arrive, we arrive in the middle of the 21st century. 26 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:30.000 Yeah. 27 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:30.840 Yeah. 28 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:33.659 And it's kind of like the seeds of death, isn't it? 29 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:36.960 Like, in fact, there's sort of seeds of death references, I think. 30 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.259 Unfortunately, it's nothing like the seeds of death, but do go. 31 00:03:40.379 --> 00:03:45.000 You know, like, remember the doctor lands in a museum that's full of spaceships? 32 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:58.139 And there's that hilarious thing that Lunwig says about how the space shuttle therein had its back soared off so that kids could play, play inside it and that it was taken out of the museum and stuff. 33 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:04.259 So it's a world that has stopped caring about space in a world that's stopped looking up. 34 00:04:04.620 --> 00:04:10.979 And Lunvig also says quite early on that what you do with aliens is blow them up. 35 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:15.780 It's alien, if it's alien, that's what you do with aliens, isn't it? 36 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:22.079 And so there's a really solid rejection of everything that we care about in Doctor Who. 37 00:04:22.139 --> 00:04:34.259 There's space things and aliens and all of that sort of thing, and we've rejected that, and we've looked down, and we are obsessed with, you know, survival and the misery of sort of everyday life. 38 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:37.139 And we get to make a decision. 39 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.860 And I think the decision that we make is more Doctor Who. 40 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:43.139 And because that decision gets made. 41 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:52.439 Capola gets that incredible speech at the end about what humanity goes on to do and that it stretches all through the galaxy and all through time. 42 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:55.259 And that's our reward for making that decision. 43 00:04:55.319 --> 00:05:00.839 That's what we get to have if we opt for more Doctor Who, I think. 44 00:05:01.139 --> 00:05:06.959 And it's kind of like the situation of trusting the alien. 45 00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:19.019 Because a line that was cut from the episode is part of Lundwig's argument is this egg was laid in the Goldilocks zone with a ready food source nearby. 46 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:20.519 That's how nature works. 47 00:05:20.579 --> 00:05:21.420 Right. 48 00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:34.860 And so, you know, in a way, that makes her argument more compelling, and it makes a rejection of that argument more compelling, and it sort of harks back to, um, I think it's the, yeah, the 3rd doctor who says at one point, intelligence and cruelty don't go together. 49 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:39.360 You know, if something means you harm, it's going to advertise the fact. 50 00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:40.079 Yeah. 51 00:05:40.139 --> 00:05:50.339 Yeah, no, it's a real shame, actually, that line was cut because one of the things that we were thinking when we watched it again yesterday was that where do creatures lay their eggs? 52 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:55.139 They lay them near the kind of creature that lays them to then abandon the egg, right? 53 00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:01.560 Generally speaking, not always, but mostly the eggs are laid near a ready food supply or sometimes in a ready food supply. 54 00:06:01.620 --> 00:06:18.779 So in some respects, if it is about the sort of a trolly problem episode, then I think things like that needed to be more spelt out as what is the potential threat of this creature hatching just here and does it come down and swoop down onto earth and devour everything in its path? 55 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:24.060 I think Nathan, that interpretation that you've given it is a lovely one. 56 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:34.079 I would like to suggest that it is an incredibly generous one for an episode, which I think is just generally a couple of good ideas. 57 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:41.759 Yes, but as kind of thrown together in a way that it doesn't all go together and work. 58 00:06:41.819 --> 00:06:51.060 And if any of the elements in it were explored better, or at least more logically with each other, I think you'd actually have something there. 59 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:55.379 But there are so many bits that aren't just, they're not just thrown together. 60 00:06:55.439 --> 00:07:08.459 They're actually fighting with each other sometimes, and then there are whole other parts of it, which I read as just being, if not lazy, then, well, we just haven't had time to probably think that through and probably work out how that's going to go. 61 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:11.279 And so this is just it and we'll just feel this and it'll be great. 62 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:16.319 As I said, it's much more than the overall concept that is wrong with this. 63 00:07:16.379 --> 00:07:21.660 And we'll explore those in due course because I can't, I can't possibly listen. 64 00:07:22.139 --> 00:07:23.699 Interesting. 65 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.500 I feel it hangs together pretty well. 66 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:30.180 I feel it's, I've had the extreme Todd experience here. 67 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:33.899 I've gone from, I thought the egg was stupid when I 1st saw this. 68 00:07:33.899 --> 00:07:36.420 And the last 3 times I've watched this. 69 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:49.319 It's grown on me every single time, and I think it's because, um, and I think obviously people have the problem with it because the egg is kind of stupid and because, you know, the bacteria, things are stupid and and lots of other things. 70 00:07:49.379 --> 00:07:57.480 But it's a really good, in the same way that the Forest of the Night is, by doing something that's really poignant to really, really make a point. 71 00:07:57.540 --> 00:08:06.720 And this is about saying that, you know, democracy is stupid. you know, turn off all your turn off all your lights. 72 00:08:06.779 --> 00:08:12.060 By the way, the earth only spins, you know, in 24 hours, not 45 minutes, but whatever, you know? 73 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:16.560 It was only going to be New York and London voting, I think. 74 00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:18.899 Bl bloody gerrymandering. 75 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:23.220 Western Europe and the Eastern United States was all that mattered. 76 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:31.620 But I just, I really like the way it talks of this concept of making a choice that is unfair, and there's a lot of discussion about it. 77 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.600 And I think that's what Doctor Who is. 78 00:08:33.659 --> 00:08:38.519 And I really, and I've toyed between, was the doctor right to leave them. 79 00:08:38.580 --> 00:08:41.519 And for a while, I thought up until like 2 hours ago. 80 00:08:41.580 --> 00:08:43.860 I kind of thought, no, he shouldn't have done that. 81 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.360 And now I'm like, yeah, it really is up to them. 82 00:08:48.419 --> 00:08:59.519 You know, this is a decision for the human race, but it is kind of balanced with this, you know, the doctor being a sort of petulant man, trying to make a and with huge stakes. 83 00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:02.159 But I just, I just love the way it plays out. 84 00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:06.360 I love the way it works and especially with the coder back in the TARDIS. 85 00:09:06.419 --> 00:09:17.700 I think it really like forest of the night is there to make a point around democracy, about climate change and ignoring climate change and sort of the value of life. 86 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.580 And this is this is great Doctor Who, in my opinion. 87 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:25.139 I think what's happening is that there's an aesthetic decision being asked diverse. 88 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:29.639 And the way that Capaldi puts it is, do you want the moon to be a corpse? 89 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:31.740 Circling... 90 00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:33.600 Looking up like lighting up at the nice guy. 91 00:09:33.659 --> 00:09:34.919 You look up and see what you've done. 92 00:09:34.980 --> 00:09:45.179 Do you want to reject something new and exciting and strange in favour of concentrating on just everyday sort of mundane things? 93 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.940 And so in a way, it's an aesthetic decision. 94 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:51.480 I mean, it's a moral decision as well, but it's not quite a trolly problem. 95 00:09:51.539 --> 00:09:54.480 It is what sort of people do we want to be? 96 00:09:54.539 --> 00:09:57.299 It's like a, it's not virtual ethics either. 97 00:09:57.360 --> 00:09:59.639 But there's something more complicated about it. 98 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:11.039 Just to go back to a couple of things, Colin said, I mean, I was looking for the Todd experience. 99 00:10:11.460 --> 00:10:13.440 For a lot of these episodes. 100 00:10:13.500 --> 00:10:16.320 Well, I saw them. 101 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:17.460 I saw them when they went out. 102 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:25.679 I saw them when the Blu-ray was released, you know, 9 or 12 months later or whatever it was, and I actually have not seen most of these episodes since then. 103 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:27.720 So you're talking about 8 or 9 years or whatever it is. 104 00:10:27.779 --> 00:10:31.679 And I was ready to reappraise this. 105 00:10:31.740 --> 00:10:33.179 Absolutely 100% ready. 106 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:39.720 You know, I was blinded by the moon is an egg thing the 1st time round and thinking, oh, that's a bit dumb and I don't know whether how that works. 107 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:51.840 And I get what you're saying, Nathan, about all that, my point is, yes, that may be what's going on and that is what they're trying to do, but they're failing. 108 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:55.200 And it all is a bit rubbish. 109 00:10:55.259 --> 00:11:03.059 It's all very well to say there are some good things in this episode, but if they're not executed well, you just end up with a bit of crap, really. 110 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:08.399 For example, just going back to the democracy thing actually that Cole said, which I thought was quite an interesting thing. 111 00:11:08.460 --> 00:11:14.399 One thing that most true democracy, such as Australia and Britain and so on have, is that we're not democracy. 112 00:11:15.299 --> 00:11:15.779 No, no. 113 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:18.960 What we are is we're liberal democracies, right? 114 00:11:19.019 --> 00:11:23.879 Because what a pure democracy is, a pure democracy actually allows mob rule. 115 00:11:23.940 --> 00:11:33.240 It allows everyone in Western Europe and the Eastern United States to turn their lights off to decide whether this creature in the sky will be summarily executed through no fault of its own. 116 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:42.720 Whereas in the liberal democracy, we have institutions and processes, which means that you can't have a majority infringe the rights of a minority. 117 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:43.740 At least that's the idea. 118 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:45.840 Obviously, it's imperfect, but that's the kind of thing. 119 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:56.340 So it's a bit kind of cheesy and childish to say that, oh, well, you know, 3000000000 people or whatever it is, have voted to kill this creature and we're going to ignore them because actually that's the right thing to do. 120 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:58.320 I don't necessarily think it's about that. 121 00:11:58.379 --> 00:12:08.879 But what I would say is that we're not given the opportunity to really understand and feel stressed out about this decision which they're trying to make. 122 00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:19.740 In some respects, having that pre-credit sequence, which I get what you're saying is kind of trying to set up the whole episode, but it almost actually ruins what the decision is that we've got to, it has to come later. 123 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:25.019 It'd be better if the decision kind of just unfolded rather than it being previewed in the pre-credit sequence. 124 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:33.600 Also, the guest cast, such as they are, are so woefully inadequately written that I just don't care. 125 00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:37.200 I didn't even know this woman's name in terms of the character name. 126 00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:39.360 I haven't seen the episode 3 times. 127 00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:40.620 Yeah, she says it once. 128 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:41.639 She says it. 129 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:42.480 She said it once. 130 00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:46.019 Well, okay, but that's a bit weird because it means I don't even know who you are. 131 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:50.700 Let's leave aside that the actress is not, dear, I suggest, is not playing it very well. 132 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:55.080 She's got this kind of tide, weary thing, but there's kind of... 133 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:58.919 No, I think it's like, it's kind of like, I can't get her. 134 00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:00.659 I'm not empathising with her. 135 00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:02.700 And if I'm not empathising with her. 136 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:08.159 How can I sympathise with her wish to kill the creature? 137 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:13.799 Because unless you can present both sides as a realistic choice. 138 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:16.019 It's all a bit childish. 139 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:23.940 The whole thing is always presented that the only decision we can come out of this is to let the creature live and to potentially risk all life on earth. 140 00:13:24.059 --> 00:13:34.740 And because that's the only really proper decision that's ever presented, we can't really appreciate the potential of the other. you know what I mean? 141 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:40.500 Yeah, except that it's not real, you know, and so, and so in a sense. 142 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:41.519 No, no, no, that's true. 143 00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:43.019 This is the point. 144 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.840 And so everything we watch on television is fake Nathan. 145 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.059 So in terms of what we're television drama. 146 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:58.259 So what that thing at the beginning does is it sets up a 45 minute period in which we get to make that decision as viewers, and we get to decide... 147 00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:59.399 Yeah, but we do. 148 00:13:59.460 --> 00:14:10.139 And what we're not deciding, what we're not deciding whether all of humanity gets destroyed in 2049 because we know going in that that's not going to happen because we know how Doctor Who works, right? 149 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:39.659 And so what decision we're being asked to make, and the decision that is invited of us is the decision to embrace something new and exciting to take a risk to, uh, you know, the world of 2049 is so miserable and so dismal and so sort of soulfully presented in a very, you know, like very quickly, and I think, through, I think far too quickly, and I just don't get that. 150 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:40.740 I just don't get that. 151 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.120 Yeah, but it's 45 minutes. 152 00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:48.299 Like, it's not a three-parter, but I think, you know, through Hermione Norris' performance as well. 153 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:49.860 It's really conveyed. 154 00:14:49.919 --> 00:15:00.179 And so we're we're rejecting that world in favour of something bigger and more generous and more exciting and more trusting, I think. 155 00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:03.480 Yeah, could I, could I pose a question on this? 156 00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:11.700 Would we would we find Hermione Norris more fleshed out if she was in a red tango wig and complaining that she'd been kept waiting? 157 00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:12.480 Six hours? 158 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.600 No, it's interesting. 159 00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:16.740 I think I'm missing that reference. 160 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.360 We're... 161 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.860 I'm a feral reader in the shock. 162 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.259 Oh, I see. 163 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.379 She is playing barrel. 164 00:15:25.379 --> 00:15:25.620 Okay. 165 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:44.759 It is an interesting point you raise about the characterisation of the astronauts because that's sort of a casualty of the scripting process because sort of the 2 main thrusts of the episode we're going to be the lead astronaut's journey as well as the conflict between the doctor and Clara at the end. 166 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:56.460 And they changed an element of the lead astronaut's character in that the lead astronaut was going to be a black woman called Blinovich. who was Courtney Blinovich, shortly. 167 00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:57.720 Yeah. 168 00:15:57.779 --> 00:15:58.980 However... 169 00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:00.899 And there's a Blenovic line left in there somewhere. 170 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:06.720 Yeah, that court, Ian grows up, becomes president of the United States, marries a bloke called Blenovic, et cetera. 171 00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:10.799 And, like, this episode was also going to explain the Blenovich limitation effect and blah, blah, blah. 172 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:14.940 But Steve, Stephen Moffin sort of said much danger. 173 00:16:15.179 --> 00:16:23.399 Stephen Moffatt sort of said, no, no, the conflict between Dr. and Clara is more interesting, but we can certainly say that Courtney is going to be very important in the future. 174 00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:28.440 Just, you know, we don't need a time paradox thrown in there as well. 175 00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:33.419 Well, I mean, she's important in that she's one of the 3 women who make this decision as well. 176 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:35.399 And she gets to be the 1st woman on the moon. 177 00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:37.500 And she gets to kill the spider. 178 00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:42.600 I too. 179 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:44.639 Sprayed a spider with cleaning food. 180 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:49.019 Yeah, yeah, judging an episode for what they cut out of it doesn't doesn't come up much for me. 181 00:16:49.080 --> 00:17:01.860 But, I mean, what it is doing, like, I just think that those astronauts aren't doing anything much more than just presenting us with this sort of miserable, desperate, you know, like it's a space shuttle full of nuclear bombs. 182 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.880 You know, like we're inclined to reject that as an aesthetic. 183 00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:17.519 And did you notice, though, that Duke, one of the astronauts is Tony Osoba, who was in Dragonfire and Destiny of the Daleks. 184 00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:19.319 Oh, and to the Daleks. 185 00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:20.940 That's right. 186 00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:23.579 He's Cracker. 187 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.299 He was one of the guards. 188 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:25.140 He's Krakower. 189 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:29.039 So he's the other one who wants to rebel against Kane along with Patricia Quinn. 190 00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:31.740 No, how old do you think I am, Cracker? 191 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:32.400 That one. 192 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:33.180 Yeah. 193 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.359 So, like, I think that it is all going in one direction. 194 00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:41.339 It presents this sort of miserable dystopia and asks us to choose something better. 195 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:52.619 And I think that the democracy thing is a little bit of a red herring as well because the real people making the decision here aren't the pretend people of 2049, they're us. 196 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:58.259 Clara speaking to us in that opening scene and giving us 45 minutes to make the decision. 197 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:06.420 And so I guess it's an, it's a story about the aesthetics of Doctor Who and what its values are. 198 00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:08.700 Yeah, yeah. and that's great. 199 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:14.700 I have to reject the premise of what you're saying, not because I'm disagreeing with what you're saying. trying to do. 200 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:19.920 I'm saying that you, I mean, you said that, oh, they can present this dystopian future in a couple of lines. 201 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:21.240 It's like, no they can't. 202 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:24.599 For me, they do not do that, right? 203 00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:25.200 Okay. 204 00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:26.880 So, okay, just a second. 205 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:28.079 So they don't do that. 206 00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:33.900 You're saying the actress who plays whatever that woman's name is, um, that character's name is, is great. 207 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:35.759 No, she is not, right? 208 00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:44.400 So did you have to understand that it's a fundamental disagreement rather than, you know, I'm not disagreeing with you that it's about this and it's about that. 209 00:18:44.460 --> 00:18:46.019 I'm just saying, yes, it is about all these things. 210 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:47.460 That doesn't make it good. 211 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:52.079 It only makes it a good idea that is then poorly executed, right? 212 00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:53.880 Paul executed in the scripting. 213 00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:55.500 Obviously it's beautifully made. 214 00:18:55.559 --> 00:19:10.259 But, I mean, even, even, even when, I mean, I don't want to get too into the weeds too much because, you know, I mean, but this is the thing, like when you, when you've decided you don't like an episode, you then start complaining about all this stuff in it, which if it was in an episode, you really like, you just brush off and say, oh, that doesn't matter. 215 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:11.339 Oh that's fine, da da da. 216 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:16.019 But just little things like the fact that they call these spidery things, unicellular organisms. 217 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.299 Well, that is not a unisellor organism. 218 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:19.380 Yeah, true. 219 00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:23.579 That's a big organisms, which Capoli can't even pronounce. 220 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:24.900 So they're bacteria. 221 00:19:25.019 --> 00:19:29.339 But he says, yeah, but he says that unicellular, that someone says they are unicellular. 222 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.700 Now, a single cell is not capable of producing something like that. 223 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:38.039 You know, so that is like, that is my, an accident between the script and the, and the visual design, right? 224 00:19:38.099 --> 00:19:40.980 Believing that to one common doctor who does that all the time, right? 225 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:47.339 But then there are other things like the fact that you don't need the thing, the creature to lay its own egg at the end, right? 226 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.799 You just have... 227 00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:59.099 No, you don't, because there are many, you know, the program is so obsessed with, you can't rewrite history, not just one line, even though we rewrite history all the time when it suits us. 228 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.180 And, you know, you know, and just those few throwaway lines of Capaldi. 229 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:04.140 What if it's a hologram? 230 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:04.920 what it's rebuilt? 231 00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:05.700 What if all these things? 232 00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:06.359 A special effect. 233 00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:07.380 It kind of doesn't matter. 234 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.059 It would have just been nicer and cleaner. 235 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.160 If the thing had a catched out of its egg and fled away. 236 00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:20.759 But as I say, this is, these are minor, actually minor things compared with the certain fundamental things that just aren't gelling for me when I watch it. 237 00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:22.859 I just keep, I keep going, yeah, but what about this? 238 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:23.339 What about that? 239 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.299 And if you're breaking the suspension of disbelief that kills it. 240 00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:31.200 There's your point. if you're watching Doctor Who on television. 241 00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:32.339 What are you believing? 242 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:33.480 What do you need to do? 243 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:39.599 But even but a good Doctor Who's episode or story, your disbelief is suspended. 244 00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:41.279 You go along with what you're watching. 245 00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:46.500 And if something breaks that, if something breaks that, it just ruins the entire thing. 246 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:47.220 It's just a fact. 247 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:48.119 I mean, you know that. 248 00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:49.500 No, no, I don't. 249 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:50.039 Colin. 250 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:50.819 Colin. 251 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:54.660 I would like I would like to mediate. 252 00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:07.259 Look, it took me a few goes to realise that this was a very dystopian kind of future where the earth had kind of been destroyed by all these gravitational waves and the tides. 253 00:21:07.259 --> 00:21:10.440 And that's covered, I think, very well in dialogue. 254 00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:15.000 But as Simon, I think you might be right, that they could have done a little bit more, right? 255 00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:20.819 Uh, either through dialogue or showing the earth kind of underwater in lots of places, maybe. 256 00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:24.480 So well-placed CGI of the Opera House underwater or something. 257 00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:26.279 Yeah, exactly. 258 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:35.460 You know, and I sat there. certainly through the 1st viewings going, well, obviously these aren't bacteria don't make cobwebs and all this kind of stuff. 259 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:40.140 And then I thought, and then I thought, he's, he's being analogous about it. 260 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:45.900 He's saying he's trying, he either he knows what's going on or he has a pretty good idea, which is a very doctorary thing. 261 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:54.359 And he's saying, well, you know, these are like bacteria, or, you know, this is like an eggshell or, you know, all these things. 262 00:21:54.420 --> 00:22:10.079 And so it can folks that are much more, perhaps into hardcore sci-fi, you know, where in the expanse of ship, spends 10 minutes slowing down, the, the, the, or 10 hours, you know, 10 days, you know? 263 00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:18.480 that you want it to make a little bit more a little bit more sense and to make it believable. 264 00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:26.579 But I think with this episode when, and it is a bit of a shock when the thing hatches and what and what it is, uh, because it is clearly ludicrous. 265 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.599 But I've got over that in a sense because I think it doesn't matter. 266 00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:32.940 There's a little bit of a reset switch. 267 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:40.319 I like the way we don't actually see much of the creature because I think that would have detracted from the whole point of what it was trying to do and trying to say. 268 00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:42.539 But I think it's a great episode. 269 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.579 It's full of witty dialogue. 270 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.099 It's full of JNT references. 271 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.400 It's full of a really great build up to what is. 272 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:51.480 No hanky-banky. 273 00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:52.920 No, exactly. 274 00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:55.140 No, throwing up a no-hacky hanky. 275 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.539 It's hilarious. those vortex manipulators. 276 00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.160 It's so well written. 277 00:22:59.220 --> 00:22:59.700 I think. 278 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:00.660 I think it's great. 279 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.240 It's my 2nd favourite Peter Harness story. 280 00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:04.380 Oh, my God. 281 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:07.440 There's only three. 282 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.519 Well, then this is my 3rd favourite. 283 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.160 Let's be positive people. 284 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:26.099 I'm going to say, I'm getting the impression from this conversation, that this is one of those stories that's an ultimate gun versus frock, and it's like, if you want to enjoy it on a frock level, It's all there. 285 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:35.819 But if you want to enjoy it on a gun level, i.e. the expanse school of science fiction and, you know, real kind of, let's base this in real science. 286 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:40.859 If you want to enjoy it on that level, not having that in there gets in the way. 287 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:54.000 And I'm not saying you can't enjoy the frock elements while questioning that, but I think whether that matters or not to you is how much you can sort of go, okay, the science in this is complete bobbins. 288 00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:59.039 And I think it's, if I, if I can sort of flash forward, actually flash back a bit. 289 00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:03.720 There are a lot of people who don't like RTD style of storytelling because they say it's too frock in places. 290 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.440 And some people don't like Stephen Moffatt because he's too gun in places. 291 00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:09.599 But they also have frock and gun in there as well. 292 00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:13.680 But it's just occurred to me, sort of, listening to argument, counter argument. 293 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:15.660 It's like, okay, these are the sticking points. 294 00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:21.000 Yeah, I am I love a good frock episode and I love a good gun episode. 295 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:36.299 The problem with this is that, and I think this is another point I wanted to make, and I think you've expressed it quite well there, Brandon, or at least expressed it for me in a way that maybe you weren't intending to, which is that it fails at being gun because it mucks up a lot of the signs. 296 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:43.440 Not because the space shuttle can't possibly land in a vacuum on a body which is basically now got the mass of the earth, right? 297 00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:46.200 It fails. 298 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:53.819 But the problem is it is setting itself up, like visually at the beginning in those early sequences, to be a gun episode. 299 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:58.799 Oh, this is all going to be a bit more dry and sci-fi and, you know, da da da da. 300 00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:01.500 And yet, there are frocky sort of elements of it. 301 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:06.000 But the problem is that the 2 the 2 halves are fighting each other. 302 00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:09.359 And for me, that creates a disjointed thing. 303 00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:16.019 And I go back and I know, Nathan, you love to mock the suspension of disbelief thing, because you say, you think it's all, you say it's all made up, so it doesn't actually matter. 304 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:23.220 But it does in that, you know, you can watch something like the happiness patrol, which is, you know, very frock. 305 00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.019 And it all works. 306 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:26.460 It all works within itself. 307 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:34.500 And so you are you are introduced to this environment and you believe it or at least, you know, I choose to believe it for the 75 odd minutes that I'm watching it. 308 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.420 In case of Avengers, honey. gun. 309 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:39.299 And again, you believe it for the 100 or so minutes that you're watching that. 310 00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:45.539 Whereas this has got a little bit of this and a little bit of that and it's like, well, we're not quite sure which one's going to dominate. 311 00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:57.900 And by the time you get to the frocky part, you've kind of thinking, well, actually, I thought I was watching a gun episode, that just means that I've kind of, it's broken the link, and now all I'm doing is picking holes in all of the stuff, which I think is, I think, totally. you know what I mean? 312 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:10.259 But I mean, the thing is, the gun bit at the beginning, the fact that we landing in a boring space shuttle full of nuclear weapons and it all looks like, like that's partly undermined by how crummy the astronauts are. 313 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:14.099 But it is also what we're supposed to be rejecting. 314 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:24.119 What we reject is a type of show where it's all, you know, blowing things up and kind of miserable and dystopian. 315 00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:37.740 And what the show wants us to accept is a world where a dragon can burst out of the sky and we can all celebrate that and that changes our lives. you know, And I get, yeah, I get that. 316 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:46.140 So I don't think there's a disjuncture between the, like, it starts gun and then for some inexplicable reason becomes frock later because it loses its way. 317 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:56.700 I think that's a very deliberate choice that what we're rejecting at the beginning is that miserable type of science fiction and that miserable conception of the world. 318 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:01.619 And we're given a world that's enchanted in a sort of weird and surprising way. 319 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:05.339 I think then there needs to be a more of a spinning on a dime. 320 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:08.099 I think I think if what you're saying is what the intention is. 321 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:16.440 And I, and I, may I gently suggest that I think everything that you're loving about it is actually an accident rather than the intention. 322 00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:17.460 I d that coming. 323 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:18.900 I really seriously doubt that. 324 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:26.759 I think Peter Harness is, and his other doctor who makes it very clear he's a skilled writer and he knows what he's doing, I think. 325 00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:28.680 And he knows a lot of Doctor Who. 326 00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:31.259 Like, there's all anarch in space enough at the beginning. 327 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:39.900 You know, and there's no way he doesn't know that a big spider can't be a bacterium. 328 00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:48.059 You know, that that is laying his cards on the table and saying this is the kind of science you're getting from this because this is Doctor Who. 329 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:53.460 Can I say that, hey, has actually been quoted as saying, I don't worry about the science when I'm writing the script. 330 00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:56.039 That's up to the script. 331 00:27:56.099 --> 00:28:00.900 Okay, fine. cavalier attitude, science of, I'm just going to write this. 332 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.059 No, no, no, no, no, fine. 333 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:15.660 Then I think what it is then is a failure of the production to fully express that in a way which a viewer can absorb in the way that you're intending it. 334 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:17.400 You think it's intended. 335 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:18.720 That's my problem. 336 00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:20.579 I think that's clearly there, though. 337 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:41.039 Yeah, the thing is, I think, though, and the thing is, this episode is very polarising, and the 2 points you're arguing are very common, and I think what happens is when it takes that turn, a bunch of people aren't ready for that turn and go off in another direction, and that's not a failure of their understanding of the episode, and I don't think it's a failure of the writing. 338 00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:44.759 I just think it's no episode is going to be right for everyone. 339 00:28:44.819 --> 00:28:47.220 Like people are always amazed when I hate Black Orchard. 340 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.500 It had come up at some point. 341 00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:54.900 People are always amazed what I hate Black Orchid, but I don't sit there going, I don't see why anyone likes this. 342 00:28:54.960 --> 00:29:00.900 I'm just like, yeah, I understand that my viewpoint is not the majority, but I just can't go along with that. 343 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.119 I mean, I think the very clear turning point is where we press the button, isn't it? 344 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.500 We press the button. 345 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:09.420 We press the button. 346 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:11.220 We press the cancel. 347 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:18.240 Immediately we hear the TARDIS noise and then we're taken by the doctor to see the consequences of that decision. 348 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.420 And so I think that that's we've rejected. 349 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.359 We've rejected that dystopia and here's where we are. 350 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:31.079 And so I think, like, I think it is a very, very clear inflection and it's, you know, bigged up in the music and the whole thing. 351 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.880 I don't want to suggest, Brendan, that I think you're stupid for liking this episode. 352 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.140 I think that's fantastic. 353 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.460 I didn't think he was, and I wasn't suggesting that you thought I was. 354 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:51.119 I enjoy, I enjoy the crotons, but you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's... 355 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:58.200 But I thought it was polarising because of the fact that there's a body of people who just can't deal with the moon is an egg bit of it. 356 00:29:58.259 --> 00:30:01.380 And that kind of ruins the whole thing for them and they can't possibly look at it seriously. 357 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.619 But, you know, why are they objecting it to it in the same reasons I am. 358 00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:07.500 No, I think that it is a bit too far. 359 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:17.160 And, you know, we had the same discussion about gridlock where we had people in traffic jams for decades on end. 40 years, whatever, yeah. 360 00:30:17.220 --> 00:30:19.380 Yeah. which is something that really happens. 361 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:24.299 And here I think it was the moon. 362 00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:34.319 And I think there's a fantastic bit where they kind of realised that the dragon laying an egg, bigger than itself, is something that we really just not going to be able to realise at all. 363 00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:37.319 So we'll just look up in the mood and be back and that'll all be fine. 364 00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:39.119 We'll just paper over in dialogue. 365 00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:44.220 I actually have a thing about that that I've been dying to say for like 9 years. 366 00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:52.859 And that is, okay, so for one thing with the whole egg thing, an egg does not increase in mass as the creature grows inside it. 367 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.099 No, scientifically. a law of conservation of mass. 368 00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:57.240 Where does all that mass come from? 369 00:30:57.299 --> 00:30:58.019 So, yeah. 370 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.319 Also, this creature lays an egg bigger than itself. 371 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:07.920 This creature is dimensionally transcendental, and we know that the TARDIS can adjust its mass based on its dimensions. 372 00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:10.140 Uh, go. 373 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.900 This creature has a dimensionally transcendental cloaker. 374 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:19.079 Ah, I'm more worried about why we can hear the moon cracking as it flies away. 375 00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:24.000 You see, no one objects to that. super unscientific. 376 00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:29.460 Well, I would have, but I would have worried that you would just think I was even sillier than you think I am. 377 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:35.700 Colin, can you remember what it is JMS says about sound in space in Babylon 5? 378 00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:38.579 I don't... 379 00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:39.059 I'm sorry. 380 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:43.380 Basically he says, it just depends where the microphone is. 381 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:45.960 Like, if you put it in the middle of the explosion, you're here. 382 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:46.859 Yes, you're in a spaceship. 383 00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:49.319 Oh, yeah, no, I love space sequences. 384 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:51.299 They are deathly silent because they're terribly effective. 385 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:54.839 And also, I don't mind space sequences when you can hear the thing. 386 00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:56.400 It's just horses for courses. 387 00:31:56.460 --> 00:31:57.180 This is what I'm saying. 388 00:31:57.240 --> 00:31:58.019 I don't mind. 389 00:31:58.079 --> 00:31:59.880 Again, it comes back to the suspension of disbelief. 390 00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:03.059 You just go along with what you're watching because it's working within the context. 391 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:12.119 I mean, leave aside the fact that a creature which is minutes old is already sexually mature and can lay what one assumes is a fertilised egg instantly. 392 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.579 It doesn't, but the point is, it doesn't matter. 393 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:15.900 That's true. 394 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:17.759 Yes, exactly. 395 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.279 The point is, it doesn't that sort of stuff doesn't matter. 396 00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:32.819 And my issue with it is at a more kind of, I just just, it's just not working for me altogether, not because I have a fundamental disagreement with the structure of the moon or any other science element of it. 397 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:33.720 Actually, that's a point. 398 00:32:33.779 --> 00:32:48.180 But if you're going to say, so if the writer's going to say, I don't really care about the science when I'm writing, and that's perfectly fine, because he's wanting to write an engaging and interesting story, and the actors are there to try and act that and hopefully the production team are there to, you know, create that all together. 399 00:32:48.240 --> 00:33:05.579 But that's what I suppose I'm saying is I think there could have been a little bit less realism in the way maybe everything else is presented, and I think the whole thing would have maybe gelled a little bit better as a result, if it had have been a little bit more cartoony, the moon surface is a bit too realistic. 400 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:11.759 The space, they're trying to be all spacy and hardcore sci-fi with the airlock and the oxygen and all that sort of stuff. 401 00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:18.240 And doing that and presenting it in that way, again, makes me feel like I'm watching something which is going to be much more straightforward, much more dry. 402 00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:24.720 And then what doesn't turn out to be that, I think when the way it turns on a dime, as you say, where they press the abort button and go off. 403 00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:25.859 It's all too fast. 404 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:29.700 It all happens too quickly and I'm going, I sorry, what am I watching now? 405 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:30.240 What's happening? 406 00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:40.079 I think that it's because we watched so much classic Doctor Who that this looks particularly realistic, to be honest. 407 00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:44.279 I was watching it. 408 00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:55.319 I think the choice of Lanzarote is a kind of location to recreate the moon is great, but all I'm seeing is Lanzarote with sort of like a starry sky painted at the top of the frame. 409 00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:56.460 Or a special effect. 410 00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:57.119 Yeah. 411 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:01.619 I remember going on holiday to Lanzarote as they were broadcasting Planet of Fire. 412 00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:03.059 I've never forgiven my parents. 413 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:07.380 You didn't have a Jason King. forgiven to your parents. 414 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.159 I want to watch it, not go there. 415 00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:18.599 You're sliding down the Shale Mountain going, this isn't any fun at all. 416 00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.079 You're going, come on, Chameleon, show me the real you. 417 00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:41.280 Um, what do we think about, um, Courtney and the way she's treated, and is she a companion? 418 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:42.659 I know you hate that question. 419 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:43.920 Yes, of course she's a companion. 420 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:44.940 She travelled in the TARDIS. 421 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:45.300 Yeah. 422 00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:47.159 I... 423 00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:48.960 She's in 2 episodes as well. 424 00:34:49.019 --> 00:34:51.119 She had four, four, four. 425 00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:52.920 Yeah, she's even in deep breath. 426 00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:54.000 Yeah, me on deep breath. 427 00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:54.659 Yeah, yeah. 428 00:34:54.719 --> 00:35:02.579 Yeah, I think she actually gets more appearances in the show than Jenna Coleman got before she got in the times. 429 00:35:03.300 --> 00:35:06.000 I really like her as a character. 430 00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:13.260 And the funny thing is, like having been a teacher in the UK in her 1st 2 appearances, I'm like, oh, yes, I had students like you. 431 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.780 And then sort of in the caretaker. 432 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.940 I'm like, actually, no, you know, you're a bit spiky. 433 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.340 You're a bit cheeky, but you're clever. 434 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:27.420 And then in this where she's so empathetic and scared but brave at the same time. 435 00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:29.280 I really like her. 436 00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:33.900 And I think the actress does a great job of conveying her character. 437 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:44.760 In terms of how the doctor treats her, they cut out some, they cut out a bit where he actually gets the psychic paper back from her, but it's still only showing that he's over 18. 438 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:45.480 Oh, really? 439 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:48.900 And he turns at court and he says... 440 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:50.519 What have you done with it? 441 00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:55.199 You've broken it It's covered in sticky stuff, i.e. Psycho. 442 00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.739 Thank God that didn't make it. 443 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.199 Whilst I haven't had a todd experience with the episode. 444 00:36:01.260 --> 00:36:02.820 I have had a t experience with her. 445 00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.820 I actually think she's great and really good. 446 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:12.539 And I actually like the sort of throwaway line because it's gone and you missed it in the beginning where Capaldi says, you know, what's a Courtney Woods? 447 00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:13.920 What is Courtney Woods? 448 00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:18.059 She was great last week. 449 00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:19.440 I think she's really good. 450 00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:27.300 I was super worried because I spent a lot of last week's episode being embarrassed by how horrible the doctor was being to people who aren't Jenna. 451 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.960 And like, I'm kind of happy for the doctor to be kind of... 452 00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:32.400 Well, because yeah, that. 453 00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:36.179 But, like, I'm happy for him to be mean to Clara because Clara can take it. 454 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:37.559 You know, she can more than take it. 455 00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:38.280 She doesn't care. 456 00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:39.480 So it doesn't upset anyone. 457 00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:41.340 And he is rude to her. 458 00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:42.480 Like, he tells her to shut up. 459 00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:48.360 He, you know, like he's rude to her, but he is absolutely concerned for her welfare. 460 00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:54.599 Like, and when she's in danger, he doesn't do any of that sort of stuff that he did in Into the Dalek and kind of ignore it or whatever. 461 00:36:54.659 --> 00:37:01.860 He's seriously, and I think, I think he calms down actually, probably after the caretaker. 462 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:07.440 I think he's at his worst in the caretaker and from here on in, he settles down a bit. 463 00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:18.300 That feeling of her not feeling special than making her feel like she's not special, is quite like meeting Jenna Coleman for a photo shoot. 464 00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:21.179 He is very, very similar experience. 465 00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:22.920 Sorry. 466 00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:40.679 I actually think that that's a bit crummy, actually, because it's kind of, you know, this thing, how young people need to be reassured and need to be told they're special and if you don't tell them that you're kind of, you know, ruining them forever and stuff like that. 467 00:37:40.739 --> 00:37:48.539 I actually thought that was a little bit weak and you would think that someone like Courtney would just go, well, actually, sod you then, if you don't think I'm special. 468 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:49.139 Who cares? 469 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:58.500 But the thing is, that's the whole thing, that she has all this bravado and all this front, but actually she is a sensitive and thinking person. 470 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:01.920 And when she's talking about the doctor saying she's not special. 471 00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:04.920 That speech she makes at the beginning. 472 00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:08.699 Like, you know, you kicked a hole in the side of my head and then you just walked off. 473 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:10.920 That's what impresses the doctor. 474 00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:16.619 The doctor goes, oh, no, the reason you're upset is you actually want to know more. 475 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:24.659 And that's a thing a lot of teenagers go through of this period of not wanting to externally show that they care, but actually caring a lot. 476 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:26.340 And what's the doctor going through right now? 477 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:30.780 He doesn't want to show that he cares when he actually cares a lot. 478 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:34.679 That plays out in a horrendous way at the end of this episode. 479 00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:36.239 I'm not saying horrendous in execution. 480 00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:38.820 I'm saying, oh my god, he does a horrendous thing. 481 00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:41.039 For the right reasons. 482 00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:43.679 For a right reason, possibly. 483 00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:44.340 Yeah. 484 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.099 But I, like I think she's really good. 485 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:51.539 I really liked the thing where Clara says, why don't you just call me Clara? 486 00:38:51.539 --> 00:38:56.400 and she says, no, actually, I think I'm calling you miss, miss, which is pretty great. 487 00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:57.900 Yeah. 488 00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:00.000 That's what I call Jetta Coleman. 489 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:10.920 The other thing was when the lead astronaut was older Courtney, when she 1st sees Clara, she says, oh my god, Mrs. Pink. 490 00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:18.420 And then she mentions, oh, I went to Cole Hill school and you were one of the governors, blah, blah, blah. 491 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:19.679 But then when they call mission control. 492 00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:21.960 Mission control says, oh my god, this is pink. 493 00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:23.579 And Clara's just like, what the hell? 494 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.940 How many people do I teach? 495 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:49.380 So one of the big problems, and it was particularly a problem in the United States, after this episode came out, was the idea that it was an anti-abortion allegory or that it had an anti-abortion message. 496 00:39:49.440 --> 00:40:00.480 And I think probably most of that comes from the language that they're using around the dragon thing when it's still not hatched. 497 00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:04.980 And so Courtney calls it a baby and says it hasn't even been born yet. 498 00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.440 Clara refers to it as a life. 499 00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:08.880 You know, we're going to kill a life. 500 00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:14.940 And so all of that stuff, I think, resonated in America more than it probably did in England. 501 00:40:15.059 --> 00:40:16.800 Was intended to, I suspect. 502 00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:17.460 Yeah. 503 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.019 I think it's unlikely to be that. 504 00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.000 I just can't see how it's about that. 505 00:40:21.059 --> 00:40:30.960 And what we have is, in fact, 3 women in a room with a man who has made himself absent getting to make this decision. 506 00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:39.539 It's not, you know, the kind of thing where it's various conservative politicians making that decision for women. 507 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:44.460 It just seems to me to be not commensurate, like not relevant. 508 00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:45.360 Yeah. 509 00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:53.940 I've seen some stuff where people read things as being anti-abortion because a woman is pregnant and decides to have the child. 510 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:57.300 Like, it's like, no, no, that's the whole point is that you can choose what to do. 511 00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:06.300 And if anything, I think it's a very long boat, very long bow to draw, and I think they've got some issues over there that they need to think about separately. 512 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:08.159 It's a doctor episode. 513 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:15.659 Yeah, I think Sandifer actually writes that there's no mother whose bodily autonomy is being threatened. 514 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:18.119 So, you know, it's not about that. 515 00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:30.420 And also, I think the moment where it's definitively not about that, because, you know, Clara's saying it's a life, Courtney's saying it's a baby that hasn't been born and Lunvik says, what if it comes out and kills us all? 516 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.679 And that's not a sentence that's regularly part of the abortion to pain. 517 00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:39.360 You know, it's like this is this is the moment where, no, it's about an alien creature. 518 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:40.559 Yeah. 519 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:41.280 Yeah. 520 00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:48.420 And also, yeah, I don't think there's any sort of proponents of abortion who are suggesting that an abortion should proceed when the mother is in labour. 521 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.099 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 522 00:41:50.099 --> 00:41:51.900 And the baby is brought to term. 523 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:52.920 Like it's just odd. 524 00:41:52.980 --> 00:42:01.260 And the funny thing is, like, no one then mentions the line the doctor has, which is we went back to Berlin in 1937 and you didn't ask me to pop out and kill Hitler. 525 00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:04.079 And it's like, this thing is baby space dragon Hitler. 526 00:42:04.139 --> 00:42:04.860 Maybe. 527 00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:08.340 It's not going to be very good at art. 528 00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:09.360 That's going to be a problem. 529 00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:28.619 The other thing that Santa says is, if there had been some women among the creatives that that might have been something that they would have picked up on, and perhaps we might have been able to be a bit more careful about that, but it doesn't seem to me to be about that or, you know, analogous to that in any way. 530 00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:33.780 And certainly I think harnesses said that he wasn't intending anything of the kind. 531 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:34.800 Yeah, he yeah. 532 00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:38.940 He's actually said, if I was going to have done that, I would have been a lot more careful and subtle. 533 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:40.199 Yeah, yeah. 534 00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:53.699 Even allowing for all that, I think that drawing that inference from this is still drawing an incredibly long bow and I think it's it's being grossly unfair to the to the material to suggest that that's even a thing. think that's right. 535 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.519 So, decision is made. 536 00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:27.300 Moon is an egg, moon is hatched, moon lays egg. doctor tells astronaut to walk 2500 miles to NASA. drops Courtney off for double geography and you know, I don't know what's more terrifying what she's been through or double geography. and then has, you know, a nice pleasant discussion with Clara. 537 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.579 It was going to end with them having a picnic on the beach, by the way. 538 00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:31.380 But instead we get this. 539 00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:35.940 I think it's incredibly well acted by Jenna. 540 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.699 I think she's amazing in it absolutely. 541 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:41.219 She's properly good, isn't she? 542 00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.539 Nails out. 543 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.239 She's an incredible actor. 544 00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:45.900 She really is. 545 00:43:45.960 --> 00:44:01.980 She's, um, it's such a heightened moment and it's building, it's all building to, especially to next week and the, the season finale of just like her going from, I'm trying to be your carer to, you really don't care about anyone properly, do you? 546 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:03.300 And I'm done with this. 547 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:11.460 And it's, and it's almost repeated at the start of dark water, I think, with the keys and all the, all this thing. 548 00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:12.059 Yeah. 549 00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:21.900 It's really, it's, it's really well set up and it's, it's a great way of, and I just love the Danny Pink bit at the end where he goes, you can't leave someone while you're angry like that. 550 00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:26.699 You've got to do it when you're calm and that sets up the Orient Express one so well. 551 00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:29.699 It's a great ending considering what's happened. 552 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:45.539 I mean, it is set up at the end of the last episode where Danny gets her to promise that if the doctor puts her in a position that is too much for her, that she should tell him and then tell Danny himself. 553 00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:48.599 And so that's her doing that. 554 00:44:48.659 --> 00:44:59.639 But I just think, like, it's a big kind of melodramatic speech, but there's a real proper TV kind of reality to the emotion she brings to it. 555 00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:01.500 She's really, really good. 556 00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.000 She's really good. 557 00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:04.980 And I think the dialogue is good too. 558 00:45:05.699 --> 00:45:07.260 Yeah. 559 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:08.639 All the dialogue is great. 560 00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:10.440 I think it's a spectacular sequence. 561 00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:15.599 I think she is better than, you know, anything we've seen in Doctor Who to this point. 562 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:24.179 My only issue is that I just wish that the 40 odd minutes that were before it were a different episode because it does. 563 00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:32.820 No, no, no, it doesn't fortunately pollute my ability to appreciate her anger because I'm there being perplexed and this is what's going on here? 564 00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:34.380 This is a bit crap and this is rubbish. 565 00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:41.760 And so I'm not getting the payoff that you guys are getting because I haven't had the experience for the previous 40 minutes that you guys have had. 566 00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:44.760 But I still recognise that that is awesome. 567 00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:52.619 I remember Peter saying to me once that he really had issue with when she says, uh, say that again or whatever. 568 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:58.079 I'll slap you so hard, you'll regenerate. which he didn't say where it was from and I couldn't remember where it was from either. 569 00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:00.539 But then when I saw it yesterday, I went, oh, that's right. from this. 570 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.400 But that line perfectly works. 571 00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:07.440 Yeah, I think in this context because she is so cross. 572 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:13.920 And she has got, you know, she is able to whack a punch at this moment, which will be so hard that it'll basically force him to regenerate. 573 00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:16.380 I think that's actually a really well-placed line, actually. 574 00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:18.059 Yeah, me too. 575 00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:29.699 There's a line that was cut, which I think would have slowed it down, and I think it was right to cut it, but I'd just like to read it for the listeners now, where Clara sort of further explains her anger, saying before my mum died, when I was a little girl. 576 00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.860 She said to me, it doesn't matter where I was in the jungle or the desert or on the moon. 577 00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:39.420 However lost I might feel, I'd never really be lost because she'd always be there. 578 00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:43.260 She'd always come and find me, which ties back to rings her back at 10. 579 00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:44.699 And then she died. 580 00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:47.400 And then it was the doctor who started coming to find me. 581 00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:52.500 I thought she'd sent him, and then he died, and he came back as something different. 582 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:53.519 Wow. 583 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:59.639 Which, you know, would have really cut another sort of cutting moment to the heart there. 584 00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:12.360 But I'm glad they lost it because I think it would have been hard to maintain her intensity because all of her lines are very short, very sharp, but she's getting the point across while the doctor's babbling in his usual way to diffuse tension. 585 00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:18.300 She's getting her point across really well and there's a moment where he realises, no, she's really properly angry. 586 00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:23.159 And Peter Copaldi's doctor looks absolutely lost for the 1st time. 587 00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:29.340 And like the bravado goes and he's like, no, no, no, that was me respecting you. 588 00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:30.599 That was me giving you the choice. 589 00:47:30.659 --> 00:47:41.460 And it's, it's almost like it makes, it makes it a little bit disappointing to me because watching it this time, I'm like, well, his whole speech of this isn't my earthwhile, but. 590 00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:46.199 He could have taken her to one side and said, Clara, a human needs to make this decision. 591 00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:51.300 If I make it for you, it's always going to be me coming to save the human race. 592 00:47:51.360 --> 00:48:01.199 The humans need to, and you know, that is a way he could have been respecting her, but that doesn't create the drama, and I appreciate the drama we get because it's so well acted. 593 00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:06.480 And, um, yeah, we wouldn't have this brilliant moment and it wouldn't develop the relationship in the same way. 594 00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:07.800 So it would have been a damp squib. 595 00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:13.679 I understand why it doesn't happen, but it's another of those moments where this could have been solved by talking like adults. 596 00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:28.500 I think there's a problem with the actual, there's a problem with the show at this point, which is that everything is so determined, and we know the history of everything. 597 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:37.199 And so you can't set anything in 2049 and credibly have the doctor not know what's going to happen. 598 00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:46.139 And so when the doctor says there's a gray area and I just can't tell and I need not to be here. 599 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.619 It's so hand wavy and so kind of unconvincing. 600 00:48:49.679 --> 00:49:02.400 And and it's the same problem that I have with Waters of Mars, where the doctor isn't allowed to save people because he doesn't want to contradict their Wikipedia pages or something. 601 00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:05.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 602 00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:06.119 It's not real. 603 00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:08.340 There's no real moral imperative there. 604 00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:14.039 And so, you know, like he obviously makes the decision that it should be them. 605 00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:17.039 He expects her to be great. 606 00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:20.219 Like he does, I think, expect her to be grateful. 607 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:25.679 So I'm a little bit like you, Simon, whereas I think this is a good episode. 608 00:49:25.739 --> 00:49:40.500 I think that the reason that the doctor can't be there just even to watch them doesn't properly land, I think, but that doesn't undermine that scene, particularly for me, because just the truth of her acting. 609 00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:50.039 And I do think too, that the big speech about my mother and stuff like that, that's a screenwriter's thing and I don't think it would have helped. 610 00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:58.559 And I think what does work there is you can imagine someone, you can just about, imagine someone saying that sort of stuff in that sort of context. 611 00:50:01.019 --> 00:50:06.179 I never been a big fan of the, the, the key moments in time and all that sort of stuff where there's waters of Mars and this. 612 00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:08.579 I just find it just, we just, I just don't care. 613 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:09.360 Don't worry about it. 614 00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:12.119 Sometimes we're allowed to change history and sometimes we're not. 615 00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:15.300 I don't need to constantly explain to me when it's okay and when it's not. 616 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:22.139 And oh, oh, because, you know, the moon is in conjunction with this, that means it's okay for us to try and change history or now I can't do it. 617 00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:29.820 It's over you over to you or as I said, you know, okay, so the moon in this version of the future, the moon stops existing in 20149. 618 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:30.539 Do you know what I mean? 619 00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:32.820 No, it's back. frigging story. 620 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:33.360 You know? 621 00:50:33.659 --> 00:50:36.059 The egg base is set 20 years after this. 622 00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:36.840 Yeah, yeah. 623 00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:38.820 I know, but that's a different future. 624 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:42.960 I mean, how many different 2070s have we've already seen multiple futures. 625 00:50:43.019 --> 00:50:48.719 It's, you know, how many different kinds of ways have the Daleks invaded the earth in the 22nd century, you know? 626 00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:54.539 Why does nobody on Bowiebase, Wang, go, oh, yeah, I remember where the moon hatched. 627 00:50:54.659 --> 00:50:55.440 Okay. 628 00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.199 And the doctor's just like, I'm dealing with enough things right now. 629 00:50:58.260 --> 00:51:01.800 I am the time Lord victorious, but I'm not dealing with the moon as an egg. 630 00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:05.099 Do you know my biggest reservation about this? 631 00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:17.340 And I think I was wrong, but my biggest reservation about this episode originally was that I thought it actually did some of the stuff that already happens in Waters of Mars. 632 00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:27.420 So remember that humanity goes off into space and it's Adelaide's granddaughter or something. 633 00:51:27.420 --> 00:51:36.960 And, you know, Adelaide goes into space because the Daleks invade in the stolen earth and then humanity reaches out to the stars and then it turns out that it's, you know, a descendant of hers. 634 00:51:37.019 --> 00:51:46.679 It's the 1st person to do faster than light travel or something, and that's how humanity goes into space, and that's what makes what happens on Bowie Bay so important. 635 00:51:46.739 --> 00:51:50.159 So I thought that we'd kind of trod that ground a little bit before. 636 00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:55.739 And come to think of it, we've had a lot of it recently because we had Adelaide Brooks granddaughter. 637 00:51:55.800 --> 00:52:00.420 We've had the child of Dugres, Scott, and Jessica Rain in Hyde. 638 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:06.900 We've had awesome pink and now we've got the, well, the actions of Lundwig. 639 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:11.400 It's not specifically, it's going to be your relatives or your relatives, except you, Courtney, you get to be present. 640 00:52:11.460 --> 00:52:13.019 You know. 641 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:17.639 One thing I do love about when the doctor's going on about, oh, humanity is going to go out and do this. 642 00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:22.139 He seems to be very, there's a mix of emotion there. 643 00:52:22.139 --> 00:52:29.400 And it sort of, it sort of, again, reminds me of Tom Baker saying, you know, humanity spreading out like a wave or a disease. 644 00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:30.900 Oh, disease, yeah, exactly. 645 00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:44.280 Yeah, and because the story's been about, is humanity going to be a race of murderers or a race that waits for science to happen and sees what happened next, there does seem to be a melancholia there, which I really appreciate. 646 00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:49.380 It's a much subtler Tom Baker era reference and we get in the 1st scene, which I thought was too bad. 647 00:52:49.619 --> 00:53:07.380 The way he closes his eyes on the beach and slowly breathes in, and I thought, and I don't usually have thoughts like this, it's like he's reconciled the different timelines and the different futures, which was the gray area, and now he can see it clearly that everything's going to be okay. 648 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:09.599 Yeah, I think that's absolutely that. 649 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.659 He's doing some weird time or thing. 650 00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:14.159 And I actually quite like that. 651 00:53:14.219 --> 00:53:16.619 I don't mind that at all I think that's really, really great. 652 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:18.780 And how else are you going to do it? 653 00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:22.320 You're not going to have a voiceover from like Vig's granddaughter? 654 00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:22.800 or something? 655 00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:24.179 Timothy Dalton. 656 00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:28.019 That's just going to make the episode first. 657 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:29.340 So, you see, it is possible. 658 00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:30.900 It is more small. 659 00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:40.199 But I was just going to say that the program is often, like you're saying, in Waters of Mars and in seeds of death as well, has rejected this idea of, you know, we have enough. 660 00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:42.300 We've we've seen far enough. 661 00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:53.340 We don't need to see any further and the program has always rejected that it's always wanted us to strive to go to the next peak to push on and further and further and higher. 662 00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:54.960 And I think that's a great positive. 663 00:53:54.960 --> 00:54:03.000 And I'm very, very grateful that at least that is the moral of the story, one of the morals of the story, such as it is that we get. 664 00:54:03.059 --> 00:54:04.079 Yeah. 665 00:54:04.139 --> 00:54:16.860 There's that miserable speech that Lundvig gives about going up into space and discovering that everything is dead, that everything out here is dead, and that we just inhabit the skin of a planet. 666 00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:22.199 And one of the things that makes that resonate is that that's actually true. 667 00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:25.980 You know, that's the real world in which we find ourselves. 668 00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:29.940 Yeah, yeah, but I think, you know, in all likelihood. 669 00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:43.260 So what we're being invited to accept is the weird, insane, overpopulated, sort of daft universe of Doctor Who as the alternative. 670 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:08.519 Well, Elissa, that's all we have time for this week. 671 00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:16.380 We'll be back next week for some champagne, soft jazz, and inevitable certain death in Mummy on the Orient Express. 672 00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:34.380 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter, and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. 673 00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:39.900 Until next time, take the stabilisers off your bike and make a good decision. 674 00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:42.659 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 675 00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:44.820 Patronising? 676 00:55:44.940 --> 00:55:45.719 Get, good night. 677 00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:46.860 Please just kill me. 678 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:57.420 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, Simon Moore, and Colin Neal. 679 00:55:57.480 --> 00:55:59.400 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 680 00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:05.460 This episode, the Goldilocks Zone, was recorded on the 29th of January 2023 and released on the 28th of May. 681 00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:23.280 Of course, if Peter Capoli had stayed for a 4th season, he would have discovered that many other things were actually completely different things, but Mars is a bar, obviously, and the Himalayas are a walls Vienetta, and that the sun is a massive cylinder 5 light years long, which revolves in such a way that we only ever get to see one end. 682 00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:32.460 Have you gone bananas, Clara? 683 00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.340 Great impersonation. 684 00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.079 I'm glad you did. 685 00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:39.599 That was really good. not even come close to that. 686 00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:45.719 The way he says that lie. 687 00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:48.179 He comes in and goes, the moon's an egg. 688 00:56:48.300 --> 00:56:49.980 And he's so excited. 689 00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:53.099 Clara looks at him and goes, what? 690 00:56:54.059 --> 00:56:56.699 And like she double takes? 691 00:56:56.760 --> 00:56:59.099 It's so tremendous. 692 00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:00.420 It's so much fun. 693 00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:06.480 And that, just the joy in that moment for him, like how excited he is about that. 694 00:57:06.539 --> 00:57:08.400 I just think is absolutely wonderful. 695 00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:15.059 And I think, because you have to read it as Peter Capoldi being excited about it just as much as the doctor is, I think. 696 00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:19.380 I love it So good. 697 00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:20.280 So good. 698 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:22.739 All right, that's it. 699 00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:23.400 Right? 700 00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:24.059 I think we're done. 701 00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:24.840 I think we're done. 702 00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:25.619 I think yeah.