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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:01:29

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that remembers with considerable

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fondness are Jadun Platoon upon the moon.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Colin.

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Well, we've got 45 minutes also to make a decision, and those

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spider bacteria are starting to scratch pretty hard at the walls.

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So what do you all think?

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Should we or shouldn't we kill the moon?

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I have to just come out straight away and say that I think this

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one is pretty great.

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Yes.

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I'd agree with that assessment.

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Okay.

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I'm less in agreement, but my problems with it are many.

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A lot of people like to criticise this episode purely for the

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concept that the moon is an egg, whereas I actually think that's

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there's nothing particularly wrong with that.

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I just think everything else is actually what's wrong with this

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episode.

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Well, let's let's go back to the beginning of the episode because

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I think that that's super telling, and I've always sort of said

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that the teasers where you say what the episode is about, and

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particularly the last couple of seconds of the teaser are the most

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important thing, that that's when you establish what your

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episode's going to be about.

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And so here we, as the Doctor Who audience, are being addressed by

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Clara, who is on a television screen, who tells us that we have 45

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minutes to make a decision about, you know, and it's a trolly

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problem sort of decision.

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And so this is very much an episode that is interrogating us.

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And I don't think it's interrogating us purely, you know, do we

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let the trolly roll over the fat man or whatever.

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Like, I don't think it's essentially about being a trolly

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problem.

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But I do think it's about Doctor Who itself.

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And do we want more Doctor Who or not, essentially, is the

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question that we're being asked.

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Can you explain that?

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Yeah, I think so.

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So when we arrive, we arrive in the middle of the 21st century.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's kind of like the seeds of death, isn't it?

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Like, in fact, there's sort of seeds of death references, I

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think.

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Unfortunately, it's nothing like the seeds of death, but do go.

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You know, like, remember the doctor lands in a museum that's full

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of spaceships?

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And there's that hilarious thing that Lunwig says about how the

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space shuttle therein had its back soared off so that kids could

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play, play inside it and that it was taken out of the museum and

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stuff.

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So it's a world that has stopped caring about space in a world

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that's stopped looking up.

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And Lunvig also says quite early on that what you do with aliens

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is blow them up.

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It's alien, if it's alien, that's what you do with aliens, isn't

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it?

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And so there's a really solid rejection of everything that we care

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about in Doctor Who.

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There's space things and aliens and all of that sort of thing, and

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we've rejected that, and we've looked down, and we are obsessed

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with, you know, survival and the misery of sort of everyday life.

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And we get to make a decision.

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And I think the decision that we make is more Doctor Who.

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And because that decision gets made.

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Capola gets that incredible speech at the end about what humanity

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goes on to do and that it stretches all through the galaxy and all

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through time.

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And that's our reward for making that decision.

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That's what we get to have if we opt for more Doctor Who, I

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think.

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And it's kind of like the situation of trusting the alien.

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Because a line that was cut from the episode is part of Lundwig's

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argument is this egg was laid in the Goldilocks zone with a ready

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food source nearby.

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That's how nature works.

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Right.

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And so, you know, in a way, that makes her argument more

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compelling, and it makes a rejection of that argument more

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compelling, and it sort of harks back to, um, I think it's the

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yeah, the 3rd doctor who says at one point, intelligence and

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cruelty don't go together.

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You know, if something means you harm, it's going to advertise the

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fact.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, no, it's a real shame, actually, that line was cut because

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one of the things that we were thinking when we watched it again

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yesterday was that where do creatures lay their eggs?

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They lay them near the kind of creature that lays them to then

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abandon the egg, right?

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Generally speaking, not always, but mostly the eggs are laid near

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a ready food supply or sometimes in a ready food supply.

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So in some respects, if it is about the sort of a trolly problem

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episode, then I think things like that needed to be more spelt out

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as what is the potential threat of this creature hatching just

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here and does it come down and swoop down onto earth and devour

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everything in its path?

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I think Nathan, that interpretation that you've given it is a

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lovely one.

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I would like to suggest that it is an incredibly generous one for

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an episode, which I think is just generally a couple of good

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ideas.

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Yes, but as kind of thrown together in a way that it doesn't all

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go together and work.

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And if any of the elements in it were explored better, or at least

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more logically with each other, I think you'd actually have

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something there.

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But there are so many bits that aren't just, they're not just

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thrown together.

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They're actually fighting with each other sometimes, and then

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there are whole other parts of it, which I read as just being, if

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not lazy, then, well, we just haven't had time to probably think

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that through and probably work out how that's going to go.

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And so this is just it and we'll just feel this and it'll be

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great.

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As I said, it's much more than the overall concept that is wrong

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with this.

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And we'll explore those in due course because I can't, I can't

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possibly listen.

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Interesting.

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I feel it hangs together pretty well.

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I feel it's, I've had the extreme Todd experience here.

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I've gone from, I thought the egg was stupid when I 1st saw this.

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And the last 3 times I've watched this.

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It's grown on me every single time, and I think it's because, um

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and I think obviously people have the problem with it because the

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egg is kind of stupid and because, you know, the bacteria, things

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are stupid and and lots of other things.

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But it's a really good, in the same way that the Forest of the

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Night is, by doing something that's really poignant to really

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really make a point.

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And this is about saying that, you know, democracy is stupid. you

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know, turn off all your turn off all your lights.

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By the way, the earth only spins, you know, in 24 hours, not 45

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minutes, but whatever, you know?

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It was only going to be New York and London voting, I think.

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Bl bloody gerrymandering.

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Western Europe and the Eastern United States was all that

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mattered.

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But I just, I really like the way it talks of this concept of

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making a choice that is unfair, and there's a lot of discussion

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about it.

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And I think that's what Doctor Who is.

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And I really, and I've toyed between, was the doctor right to

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leave them.

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And for a while, I thought up until like 2 hours ago.

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I kind of thought, no, he shouldn't have done that.

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And now I'm like, yeah, it really is up to them.

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You know, this is a decision for the human race, but it is kind of

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balanced with this, you know, the doctor being a sort of petulant

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man, trying to make a and with huge stakes.

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But I just, I just love the way it plays out.

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I love the way it works and especially with the coder back in the

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TARDIS.

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I think it really like forest of the night is there to make a

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point around democracy, about climate change and ignoring climate

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change and sort of the value of life.

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And this is this is great Doctor Who, in my opinion.

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I think what's happening is that there's an aesthetic decision

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being asked diverse.

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And the way that Capaldi puts it is, do you want the moon to be a

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corpse?

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Circling...

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Looking up like lighting up at the nice guy.

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You look up and see what you've done.

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Do you want to reject something new and exciting and strange in

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favour of concentrating on just everyday sort of mundane things?

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And so in a way, it's an aesthetic decision.

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I mean, it's a moral decision as well, but it's not quite a trolly

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problem.

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It is what sort of people do we want to be?

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It's like a, it's not virtual ethics either.

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But there's something more complicated about it.

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Just to go back to a couple of things, Colin said, I mean, I was

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looking for the Todd experience.

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For a lot of these episodes.

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Well, I saw them.

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I saw them when they went out.

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I saw them when the Blu-ray was released, you know, 9 or 12 months

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later or whatever it was, and I actually have not seen most of

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these episodes since then.

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So you're talking about 8 or 9 years or whatever it is.

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And I was ready to reappraise this.

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Absolutely 100% ready.

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You know, I was blinded by the moon is an egg thing the 1st time

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round and thinking, oh, that's a bit dumb and I don't know whether

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how that works.

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And I get what you're saying, Nathan, about all that, my point is

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yes, that may be what's going on and that is what they're trying

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to do, but they're failing.

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And it all is a bit rubbish.

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It's all very well to say there are some good things in this

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episode, but if they're not executed well, you just end up with a

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bit of crap, really.

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For example, just going back to the democracy thing actually that

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Cole said, which I thought was quite an interesting thing.

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One thing that most true democracy, such as Australia and Britain

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and so on have, is that we're not democracy.

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No, no.

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What we are is we're liberal democracies, right?

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Because what a pure democracy is, a pure democracy actually allows

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mob rule.

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It allows everyone in Western Europe and the Eastern United States

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to turn their lights off to decide whether this creature in the

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sky will be summarily executed through no fault of its own.

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Whereas in the liberal democracy, we have institutions and

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processes, which means that you can't have a majority infringe the

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rights of a minority.

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At least that's the idea.

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Obviously, it's imperfect, but that's the kind of thing.

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So it's a bit kind of cheesy and childish to say that, oh, well

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you know, 3000000000 people or whatever it is, have voted to kill

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this creature and we're going to ignore them because actually

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that's the right thing to do.

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I don't necessarily think it's about that.

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But what I would say is that we're not given the opportunity to

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really understand and feel stressed out about this decision which

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they're trying to make.

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In some respects, having that pre-credit sequence, which I get

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what you're saying is kind of trying to set up the whole episode

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but it almost actually ruins what the decision is that we've got

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to, it has to come later.

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It'd be better if the decision kind of just unfolded rather than

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it being previewed in the pre-credit sequence.

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Also, the guest cast, such as they are, are so woefully

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inadequately written that I just don't care.

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I didn't even know this woman's name in terms of the character

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name.

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I haven't seen the episode 3 times.

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Yeah, she says it once.

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She says it.

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She said it once.

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Well, okay, but that's a bit weird because it means I don't even

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know who you are.

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Let's leave aside that the actress is not, dear, I suggest, is not

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playing it very well.

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She's got this kind of tide, weary thing, but there's kind of...

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No, I think it's like, it's kind of like, I can't get her.

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I'm not empathising with her.

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And if I'm not empathising with her.

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How can I sympathise with her wish to kill the creature?

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Because unless you can present both sides as a realistic choice.

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It's all a bit childish.

248
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:19.440
The whole thing is always presented that the only decision we can

249
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:22.919
come out of this is to let the creature live and to potentially

250
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:23.940
risk all life on earth.

251
00:13:24.059 --> 00:13:29.700
And because that's the only really proper decision that's ever

252
00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:34.139
presented, we can't really appreciate the potential of the other

253
00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:34.740
you know what I mean?

254
00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:39.600
Yeah, except that it's not real, you know, and so, and so in a

255
00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:40.500
sense.

256
00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:41.519
No, no, no, that's true.

257
00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:43.019
This is the point.

258
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.840
And so everything we watch on television is fake Nathan.

259
00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.059
So in terms of what we're television drama.

260
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:51.600
So what that thing at the beginning does is it sets up a 45 minute

261
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:56.220
period in which we get to make that decision as viewers, and we

262
00:13:56.220 --> 00:13:58.259
get to decide...

263
00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:59.399
Yeah, but we do.

264
00:13:59.460 --> 00:14:02.759
And what we're not deciding, what we're not deciding whether all

265
00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:06.659
of humanity gets destroyed in 2049 because we know going in that

266
00:14:06.659 --> 00:14:09.779
that's not going to happen because we know how Doctor Who works

267
00:14:09.779 --> 00:14:10.139
right?

268
00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:15.360
And so what decision we're being asked to make, and the decision

269
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:19.440
that is invited of us is the decision to embrace something new and

270
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:27.059
exciting to take a risk to, uh, you know, the world of 2049 is so

271
00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:32.460
miserable and so dismal and so sort of soulfully presented in a

272
00:14:32.460 --> 00:14:37.799
very, you know, like very quickly, and I think, through, I think

273
00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:39.659
far too quickly, and I just don't get that.

274
00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:40.740
I just don't get that.

275
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.120
Yeah, but it's 45 minutes.

276
00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:45.240
Like, it's not a three-parter, but I think, you know, through

277
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.299
Hermione Norris' performance as well.

278
00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:49.860
It's really conveyed.

279
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.220
And so we're we're rejecting that world in favour of something

280
00:14:53.220 --> 00:15:00.000
bigger and more generous and more exciting and more trusting, I

281
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:00.179
think.

282
00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:03.480
Yeah, could I, could I pose a question on this?

283
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:07.740
Would we would we find Hermione Norris more fleshed out if she was

284
00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:11.700
in a red tango wig and complaining that she'd been kept waiting?

285
00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:12.480
Six hours?

286
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.600
No, it's interesting.

287
00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:16.740
I think I'm missing that reference.

288
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.360
We're...

289
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.860
I'm a feral reader in the shock.

290
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.259
Oh, I see.

291
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.379
She is playing barrel.

292
00:15:25.379 --> 00:15:25.620
Okay.

293
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.500
It is an interesting point you raise about the characterisation of

294
00:15:28.500 --> 00:15:31.559
the astronauts because that's sort of a casualty of the scripting

295
00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.940
process because sort of the 2 main thrusts of the episode we're

296
00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:42.720
going to be the lead astronaut's journey as well as the conflict

297
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:44.759
between the doctor and Clara at the end.

298
00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:49.799
And they changed an element of the lead astronaut's character in

299
00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:52.200
that the lead astronaut was going to be a black woman called

300
00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.460
Blinovich. who was Courtney Blinovich, shortly.

301
00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:57.720
Yeah.

302
00:15:57.779 --> 00:15:58.980
However...

303
00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:00.899
And there's a Blenovic line left in there somewhere.

304
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.120
Yeah, that court, Ian grows up, becomes president of the United

305
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:06.720
States, marries a bloke called Blenovic, et cetera.

306
00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:09.120
And, like, this episode was also going to explain the Blenovich

307
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:10.799
limitation effect and blah, blah, blah.

308
00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:14.940
But Steve, Stephen Moffin sort of said much danger.

309
00:16:15.179 --> 00:16:18.960
Stephen Moffatt sort of said, no, no, the conflict between Dr. and

310
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.779
Clara is more interesting, but we can certainly say that Courtney

311
00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:23.399
is going to be very important in the future.

312
00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:28.259
Just, you know, we don't need a time paradox thrown in there as

313
00:16:28.259 --> 00:16:28.440
well.

314
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:32.159
Well, I mean, she's important in that she's one of the 3 women who

315
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:33.419
make this decision as well.

316
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:35.399
And she gets to be the 1st woman on the moon.

317
00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:37.500
And she gets to kill the spider.

318
00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:42.600
I too.

319
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:44.639
Sprayed a spider with cleaning food.

320
00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:47.940
Yeah, yeah, judging an episode for what they cut out of it doesn't

321
00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:49.019
doesn't come up much for me.

322
00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.139
But, I mean, what it is doing, like, I just think that those

323
00:16:52.139 --> 00:16:56.460
astronauts aren't doing anything much more than just presenting us

324
00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:59.639
with this sort of miserable, desperate, you know, like it's a

325
00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:01.860
space shuttle full of nuclear bombs.

326
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.880
You know, like we're inclined to reject that as an aesthetic.

327
00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:13.019
And did you notice, though, that Duke, one of the astronauts is

328
00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:17.519
Tony Osoba, who was in Dragonfire and Destiny of the Daleks.

329
00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:19.319
Oh, and to the Daleks.

330
00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:20.940
That's right.

331
00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:23.579
He's Cracker.

332
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.299
He was one of the guards.

333
00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:25.140
He's Krakower.

334
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.259
So he's the other one who wants to rebel against Kane along with

335
00:17:28.259 --> 00:17:29.039
Patricia Quinn.

336
00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:31.740
No, how old do you think I am, Cracker?

337
00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:32.400
That one.

338
00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:33.180
Yeah.

339
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.359
So, like, I think that it is all going in one direction.

340
00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:40.200
It presents this sort of miserable dystopia and asks us to choose

341
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:41.339
something better.

342
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.299
And I think that the democracy thing is a little bit of a red

343
00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:49.019
herring as well because the real people making the decision here

344
00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:52.619
aren't the pretend people of 2049, they're us.

345
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:57.240
Clara speaking to us in that opening scene and giving us 45

346
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:58.259
minutes to make the decision.

347
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:04.019
And so I guess it's an, it's a story about the aesthetics of

348
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:06.420
Doctor Who and what its values are.

349
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:08.700
Yeah, yeah. and that's great.

350
00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.880
I have to reject the premise of what you're saying, not because

351
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:14.700
I'm disagreeing with what you're saying. trying to do.

352
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.299
I'm saying that you, I mean, you said that, oh, they can present

353
00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:19.920
this dystopian future in a couple of lines.

354
00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:21.240
It's like, no they can't.

355
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:24.599
For me, they do not do that, right?

356
00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:25.200
Okay.

357
00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:26.880
So, okay, just a second.

358
00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:28.079
So they don't do that.

359
00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:31.559
You're saying the actress who plays whatever that woman's name is

360
00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:33.900
um, that character's name is, is great.

361
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:35.759
No, she is not, right?

362
00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:39.660
So did you have to understand that it's a fundamental disagreement

363
00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:43.079
rather than, you know, I'm not disagreeing with you that it's

364
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:44.400
about this and it's about that.

365
00:18:44.460 --> 00:18:46.019
I'm just saying, yes, it is about all these things.

366
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:47.460
That doesn't make it good.

367
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:52.079
It only makes it a good idea that is then poorly executed, right?

368
00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:53.880
Paul executed in the scripting.

369
00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:55.500
Obviously it's beautifully made.

370
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.740
But, I mean, even, even, even when, I mean, I don't want to get

371
00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:01.259
too into the weeds too much because, you know, I mean, but this is

372
00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:03.480
the thing, like when you, when you've decided you don't like an

373
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.420
episode, you then start complaining about all this stuff in it

374
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:09.240
which if it was in an episode, you really like, you just brush off

375
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:10.259
and say, oh, that doesn't matter.

376
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:11.339
Oh that's fine, da da da.

377
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.400
But just little things like the fact that they call these spidery

378
00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.019
things, unicellular organisms.

379
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.299
Well, that is not a unisellor organism.

380
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:19.380
Yeah, true.

381
00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:23.579
That's a big organisms, which Capoli can't even pronounce.

382
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:24.900
So they're bacteria.

383
00:19:25.019 --> 00:19:28.259
But he says, yeah, but he says that unicellular, that someone says

384
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:29.339
they are unicellular.

385
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.519
Now, a single cell is not capable of producing something like

386
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:32.700
that.

387
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:36.000
You know, so that is like, that is my, an accident between the

388
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.039
script and the, and the visual design, right?

389
00:19:38.099 --> 00:19:40.619
Believing that to one common doctor who does that all the time

390
00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:40.980
right?

391
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:43.920
But then there are other things like the fact that you don't need

392
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.339
the thing, the creature to lay its own egg at the end, right?

393
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.799
You just have...

394
00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:53.039
No, you don't, because there are many, you know, the program is so

395
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.039
obsessed with, you can't rewrite history, not just one line, even

396
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.099
though we rewrite history all the time when it suits us.

397
00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.640
And, you know, you know, and just those few throwaway lines of

398
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:03.180
Capaldi.

399
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:04.140
What if it's a hologram?

400
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:04.920
what it's rebuilt?

401
00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:05.700
What if all these things?

402
00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:06.359
A special effect.

403
00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:07.380
It kind of doesn't matter.

404
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.059
It would have just been nicer and cleaner.

405
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.160
If the thing had a catched out of its egg and fled away.

406
00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:14.220
But as I say, this is, these are minor, actually minor things

407
00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:18.480
compared with the certain fundamental things that just aren't

408
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.759
gelling for me when I watch it.

409
00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:22.859
I just keep, I keep going, yeah, but what about this?

410
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:23.339
What about that?

411
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.299
And if you're breaking the suspension of disbelief that kills it.

412
00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:31.200
There's your point. if you're watching Doctor Who on television.

413
00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:32.339
What are you believing?

414
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:33.480
What do you need to do?

415
00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:38.819
But even but a good Doctor Who's episode or story, your disbelief

416
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:39.599
is suspended.

417
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:41.279
You go along with what you're watching.

418
00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:45.299
And if something breaks that, if something breaks that, it just

419
00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:46.500
ruins the entire thing.

420
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:47.220
It's just a fact.

421
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:48.119
I mean, you know that.

422
00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:49.500
No, no, I don't.

423
00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:50.039
Colin.

424
00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:50.819
Colin.

425
00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:54.660
I would like I would like to mediate.

426
00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:00.480
Look, it took me a few goes to realise that this was a very

427
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:04.019
dystopian kind of future where the earth had kind of been

428
00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:07.259
destroyed by all these gravitational waves and the tides.

429
00:21:07.259 --> 00:21:10.440
And that's covered, I think, very well in dialogue.

430
00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:13.259
But as Simon, I think you might be right, that they could have

431
00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:15.000
done a little bit more, right?

432
00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:18.180
Uh, either through dialogue or showing the earth kind of

433
00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:20.819
underwater in lots of places, maybe.

434
00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:24.480
So well-placed CGI of the Opera House underwater or something.

435
00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:26.279
Yeah, exactly.

436
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.960
You know, and I sat there. certainly through the 1st viewings

437
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.619
going, well, obviously these aren't bacteria don't make cobwebs

438
00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:35.460
and all this kind of stuff.

439
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.779
And then I thought, and then I thought, he's, he's being analogous

440
00:21:39.779 --> 00:21:40.140
about it.

441
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:43.559
He's saying he's trying, he either he knows what's going on or he

442
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:45.900
has a pretty good idea, which is a very doctorary thing.

443
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.799
And he's saying, well, you know, these are like bacteria, or, you

444
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:54.359
know, this is like an eggshell or, you know, all these things.

445
00:21:54.420 --> 00:22:00.180
And so it can folks that are much more, perhaps into hardcore sci

446
00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:03.539
fi, you know, where in the expanse of ship, spends 10 minutes

447
00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:09.839
slowing down, the, the, the, or 10 hours, you know, 10 days, you

448
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.079
know?

449
00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:15.480
that you want it to make a little bit more a little bit more sense

450
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:18.480
and to make it believable.

451
00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:21.480
But I think with this episode when, and it is a bit of a shock

452
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:25.559
when the thing hatches and what and what it is, uh, because it is

453
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:26.579
clearly ludicrous.

454
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.240
But I've got over that in a sense because I think it doesn't

455
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:30.599
matter.

456
00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:32.940
There's a little bit of a reset switch.

457
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.000
I like the way we don't actually see much of the creature because

458
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.880
I think that would have detracted from the whole point of what it

459
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:40.319
was trying to do and trying to say.

460
00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:42.539
But I think it's a great episode.

461
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.579
It's full of witty dialogue.

462
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.099
It's full of JNT references.

463
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.400
It's full of a really great build up to what is.

464
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:51.480
No hanky-banky.

465
00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:52.920
No, exactly.

466
00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:55.140
No, throwing up a no-hacky hanky.

467
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.539
It's hilarious. those vortex manipulators.

468
00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.160
It's so well written.

469
00:22:59.220 --> 00:22:59.700
I think.

470
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:00.660
I think it's great.

471
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.240
It's my 2nd favourite Peter Harness story.

472
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:04.380
Oh, my God.

473
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:07.440
There's only three.

474
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.519
Well, then this is my 3rd favourite.

475
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.160
Let's be positive people.

476
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.299
I'm going to say, I'm getting the impression from this

477
00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:21.119
conversation, that this is one of those stories that's an ultimate

478
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:24.539
gun versus frock, and it's like, if you want to enjoy it on a

479
00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:26.099
frock level, It's all there.

480
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:30.059
But if you want to enjoy it on a gun level, i.e. the expanse

481
00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:34.980
school of science fiction and, you know, real kind of, let's base

482
00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:35.819
this in real science.

483
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.359
If you want to enjoy it on that level, not having that in there

484
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:40.859
gets in the way.

485
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:44.400
And I'm not saying you can't enjoy the frock elements while

486
00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:49.619
questioning that, but I think whether that matters or not to you

487
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:53.099
is how much you can sort of go, okay, the science in this is

488
00:23:53.099 --> 00:23:54.000
complete bobbins.

489
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:58.200
And I think it's, if I, if I can sort of flash forward, actually

490
00:23:58.200 --> 00:23:59.039
flash back a bit.

491
00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:01.680
There are a lot of people who don't like RTD style of storytelling

492
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.720
because they say it's too frock in places.

493
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.960
And some people don't like Stephen Moffatt because he's too gun in

494
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:07.440
places.

495
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:09.599
But they also have frock and gun in there as well.

496
00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:12.900
But it's just occurred to me, sort of, listening to argument

497
00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:13.680
counter argument.

498
00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:15.660
It's like, okay, these are the sticking points.

499
00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:20.519
Yeah, I am I love a good frock episode and I love a good gun

500
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:21.000
episode.

501
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.500
The problem with this is that, and I think this is another point I

502
00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:27.420
wanted to make, and I think you've expressed it quite well there

503
00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:29.819
Brandon, or at least expressed it for me in a way that maybe you

504
00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:34.079
weren't intending to, which is that it fails at being gun because

505
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.299
it mucks up a lot of the signs.

506
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:41.460
Not because the space shuttle can't possibly land in a vacuum on a

507
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:43.440
body which is basically now got the mass of the earth, right?

508
00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:46.200
It fails.

509
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.460
But the problem is it is setting itself up, like visually at the

510
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:53.819
beginning in those early sequences, to be a gun episode.

511
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.180
Oh, this is all going to be a bit more dry and sci-fi and, you

512
00:24:57.180 --> 00:24:58.799
know, da da da da.

513
00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:01.500
And yet, there are frocky sort of elements of it.

514
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:05.700
But the problem is that the 2 the 2 halves are fighting each

515
00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:06.000
other.

516
00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:09.359
And for me, that creates a disjointed thing.

517
00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:12.359
And I go back and I know, Nathan, you love to mock the suspension

518
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:14.519
of disbelief thing, because you say, you think it's all, you say

519
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:16.019
it's all made up, so it doesn't actually matter.

520
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.319
But it does in that, you know, you can watch something like the

521
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.220
happiness patrol, which is, you know, very frock.

522
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.019
And it all works.

523
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:26.460
It all works within itself.

524
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.880
And so you are you are introduced to this environment and you

525
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:32.460
believe it or at least, you know, I choose to believe it for the

526
00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:34.500
75 odd minutes that I'm watching it.

527
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.420
In case of Avengers, honey. gun.

528
00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:39.000
And again, you believe it for the 100 or so minutes that you're

529
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:39.299
watching that.

530
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.299
Whereas this has got a little bit of this and a little bit of that

531
00:25:42.299 --> 00:25:45.059
and it's like, well, we're not quite sure which one's going to

532
00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:45.539
dominate.

533
00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:48.779
And by the time you get to the frocky part, you've kind of

534
00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:50.880
thinking, well, actually, I thought I was watching a gun episode

535
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.339
that just means that I've kind of, it's broken the link, and now

536
00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:55.559
all I'm doing is picking holes in all of the stuff, which I think

537
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.900
is, I think, totally. you know what I mean?

538
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.559
But I mean, the thing is, the gun bit at the beginning, the fact

539
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:05.220
that we landing in a boring space shuttle full of nuclear weapons

540
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:09.000
and it all looks like, like that's partly undermined by how crummy

541
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:10.259
the astronauts are.

542
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:14.099
But it is also what we're supposed to be rejecting.

543
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:21.299
What we reject is a type of show where it's all, you know, blowing

544
00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:24.119
things up and kind of miserable and dystopian.

545
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:30.299
And what the show wants us to accept is a world where a dragon can

546
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:34.079
burst out of the sky and we can all celebrate that and that

547
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.740
changes our lives. you know, And I get, yeah, I get that.

548
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.759
So I don't think there's a disjuncture between the, like, it

549
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.759
starts gun and then for some inexplicable reason becomes frock

550
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:46.140
later because it loses its way.

551
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:50.519
I think that's a very deliberate choice that what we're rejecting

552
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:54.240
at the beginning is that miserable type of science fiction and

553
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.700
that miserable conception of the world.

554
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.900
And we're given a world that's enchanted in a sort of weird and

555
00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:01.619
surprising way.

556
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:05.339
I think then there needs to be a more of a spinning on a dime.

557
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:08.099
I think I think if what you're saying is what the intention is.

558
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:12.359
And I, and I, may I gently suggest that I think everything that

559
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.900
you're loving about it is actually an accident rather than the

560
00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:16.440
intention.

561
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:17.460
I d that coming.

562
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:18.900
I really seriously doubt that.

563
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.200
I think Peter Harness is, and his other doctor who makes it very

564
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.519
clear he's a skilled writer and he knows what he's doing, I

565
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:26.759
think.

566
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:28.680
And he knows a lot of Doctor Who.

567
00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:31.259
Like, there's all anarch in space enough at the beginning.

568
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:37.740
You know, and there's no way he doesn't know that a big spider

569
00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:39.900
can't be a bacterium.

570
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:44.039
You know, that that is laying his cards on the table and saying

571
00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:47.400
this is the kind of science you're getting from this because this

572
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:48.059
is Doctor Who.

573
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:51.779
Can I say that, hey, has actually been quoted as saying, I don't

574
00:27:51.779 --> 00:27:53.460
worry about the science when I'm writing the script.

575
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:56.039
That's up to the script.

576
00:27:56.099 --> 00:28:00.720
Okay, fine. cavalier attitude, science of, I'm just going to write

577
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:00.900
this.

578
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.059
No, no, no, no, no, fine.

579
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.440
Then I think what it is then is a failure of the production to

580
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:14.700
fully express that in a way which a viewer can absorb in the way

581
00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:15.660
that you're intending it.

582
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:17.400
You think it's intended.

583
00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:18.720
That's my problem.

584
00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:20.579
I think that's clearly there, though.

585
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:24.180
Yeah, the thing is, I think, though, and the thing is, this

586
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:27.960
episode is very polarising, and the 2 points you're arguing are

587
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.619
very common, and I think what happens is when it takes that turn, a

588
00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:35.099
bunch of people aren't ready for that turn and go off in another

589
00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:38.819
direction, and that's not a failure of their understanding of the

590
00:28:38.819 --> 00:28:41.039
episode, and I don't think it's a failure of the writing.

591
00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:44.759
I just think it's no episode is going to be right for everyone.

592
00:28:44.819 --> 00:28:47.220
Like people are always amazed when I hate Black Orchard.

593
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.500
It had come up at some point.

594
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:52.740
People are always amazed what I hate Black Orchid, but I don't sit

595
00:28:52.740 --> 00:28:54.900
there going, I don't see why anyone likes this.

596
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:58.859
I'm just like, yeah, I understand that my viewpoint is not the

597
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:00.900
majority, but I just can't go along with that.

598
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:05.220
I mean, I think the very clear turning point is where we press the

599
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:06.119
button, isn't it?

600
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.500
We press the button.

601
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:09.420
We press the button.

602
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:11.220
We press the cancel.

603
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:14.819
Immediately we hear the TARDIS noise and then we're taken by the

604
00:29:14.819 --> 00:29:18.240
doctor to see the consequences of that decision.

605
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.420
And so I think that that's we've rejected.

606
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.359
We've rejected that dystopia and here's where we are.

607
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:28.140
And so I think, like, I think it is a very, very clear inflection

608
00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:31.079
and it's, you know, bigged up in the music and the whole thing.

609
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.920
I don't want to suggest, Brendan, that I think you're stupid for

610
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:35.880
liking this episode.

611
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.140
I think that's fantastic.

612
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.220
I didn't think he was, and I wasn't suggesting that you thought I

613
00:29:41.220 --> 00:29:41.460
was.

614
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.880
I enjoy, I enjoy the crotons, but you know, it's, it's, it's, it's

615
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.119
it's...

616
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:54.839
But I thought it was polarising because of the fact that there's a

617
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:58.019
body of people who just can't deal with the moon is an egg bit of

618
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:58.200
it.

619
00:29:58.259 --> 00:30:00.359
And that kind of ruins the whole thing for them and they can't

620
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:01.380
possibly look at it seriously.

621
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.319
But, you know, why are they objecting it to it in the same reasons

622
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:04.619
I am.

623
00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:07.500
No, I think that it is a bit too far.

624
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:11.039
And, you know, we had the same discussion about gridlock where we

625
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:16.980
had people in traffic jams for decades on end. 40 years, whatever

626
00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:17.160
yeah.

627
00:30:17.220 --> 00:30:19.380
Yeah. which is something that really happens.

628
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:24.299
And here I think it was the moon.

629
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:28.140
And I think there's a fantastic bit where they kind of realised

630
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:31.500
that the dragon laying an egg, bigger than itself, is something

631
00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:34.319
that we really just not going to be able to realise at all.

632
00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:37.079
So we'll just look up in the mood and be back and that'll all be

633
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:37.319
fine.

634
00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:39.119
We'll just paper over in dialogue.

635
00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:42.420
I actually have a thing about that that I've been dying to say for

636
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:44.220
like 9 years.

637
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:49.740
And that is, okay, so for one thing with the whole egg thing, an

638
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:52.859
egg does not increase in mass as the creature grows inside it.

639
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.099
No, scientifically. a law of conservation of mass.

640
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:57.240
Where does all that mass come from?

641
00:30:57.299 --> 00:30:58.019
So, yeah.

642
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.319
Also, this creature lays an egg bigger than itself.

643
00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:05.160
This creature is dimensionally transcendental, and we know that

644
00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:07.920
the TARDIS can adjust its mass based on its dimensions.

645
00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:10.140
Uh, go.

646
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.900
This creature has a dimensionally transcendental cloaker.

647
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:18.599
Ah, I'm more worried about why we can hear the moon cracking as it

648
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:19.079
flies away.

649
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:24.000
You see, no one objects to that. super unscientific.

650
00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:27.000
Well, I would have, but I would have worried that you would just

651
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.460
think I was even sillier than you think I am.

652
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.680
Colin, can you remember what it is JMS says about sound in space

653
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:35.700
in Babylon 5?

654
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:38.579
I don't...

655
00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:39.059
I'm sorry.

656
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:43.380
Basically he says, it just depends where the microphone is.

657
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:45.960
Like, if you put it in the middle of the explosion, you're here.

658
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:46.859
Yes, you're in a spaceship.

659
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:49.319
Oh, yeah, no, I love space sequences.

660
00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:51.299
They are deathly silent because they're terribly effective.

661
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.640
And also, I don't mind space sequences when you can hear the

662
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:54.839
thing.

663
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:56.400
It's just horses for courses.

664
00:31:56.460 --> 00:31:57.180
This is what I'm saying.

665
00:31:57.240 --> 00:31:58.019
I don't mind.

666
00:31:58.079 --> 00:31:59.880
Again, it comes back to the suspension of disbelief.

667
00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:02.220
You just go along with what you're watching because it's working

668
00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:03.059
within the context.

669
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:07.259
I mean, leave aside the fact that a creature which is minutes old

670
00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:11.160
is already sexually mature and can lay what one assumes is a

671
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:12.119
fertilised egg instantly.

672
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.579
It doesn't, but the point is, it doesn't matter.

673
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:15.900
That's true.

674
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:17.759
Yes, exactly.

675
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.279
The point is, it doesn't that sort of stuff doesn't matter.

676
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:24.839
And my issue with it is at a more kind of, I just just, it's just

677
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:27.960
not working for me altogether, not because I have a fundamental

678
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:31.259
disagreement with the structure of the moon or any other science

679
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:32.819
element of it.

680
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:33.720
Actually, that's a point.

681
00:32:33.779 --> 00:32:36.119
But if you're going to say, so if the writer's going to say, I

682
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:37.920
don't really care about the science when I'm writing, and that's

683
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.740
perfectly fine, because he's wanting to write an engaging and

684
00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:43.799
interesting story, and the actors are there to try and act that

685
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.920
and hopefully the production team are there to, you know, create

686
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:48.180
that all together.

687
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.539
But that's what I suppose I'm saying is I think there could have

688
00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:55.500
been a little bit less realism in the way maybe everything else is

689
00:32:55.500 --> 00:32:58.680
presented, and I think the whole thing would have maybe gelled a

690
00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:01.740
little bit better as a result, if it had have been a little bit

691
00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:05.579
more cartoony, the moon surface is a bit too realistic.

692
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:09.960
The space, they're trying to be all spacy and hardcore sci-fi with

693
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:11.759
the airlock and the oxygen and all that sort of stuff.

694
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:15.539
And doing that and presenting it in that way, again, makes me feel

695
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:17.160
like I'm watching something which is going to be much more

696
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:18.240
straightforward, much more dry.

697
00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:21.480
And then what doesn't turn out to be that, I think when the way it

698
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:23.940
turns on a dime, as you say, where they press the abort button and

699
00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:24.720
go off.

700
00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:25.859
It's all too fast.

701
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:29.339
It all happens too quickly and I'm going, I sorry, what am I

702
00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:29.700
watching now?

703
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:30.240
What's happening?

704
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:36.660
I think that it's because we watched so much classic Doctor Who

705
00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:40.079
that this looks particularly realistic, to be honest.

706
00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:44.279
I was watching it.

707
00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:47.880
I think the choice of Lanzarote is a kind of location to recreate

708
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:51.000
the moon is great, but all I'm seeing is Lanzarote with sort of

709
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:55.319
like a starry sky painted at the top of the frame.

710
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:56.460
Or a special effect.

711
00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:57.119
Yeah.

712
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.839
I remember going on holiday to Lanzarote as they were broadcasting

713
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:01.619
Planet of Fire.

714
00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:03.059
I've never forgiven my parents.

715
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:07.380
You didn't have a Jason King. forgiven to your parents.

716
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.159
I want to watch it, not go there.

717
00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:17.940
You're sliding down the Shale Mountain going, this isn't any fun

718
00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:18.599
at all.

719
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.079
You're going, come on, Chameleon, show me the real you.

720
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:39.480
Um, what do we think about, um, Courtney and the way she's treated

721
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:41.280
and is she a companion?

722
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:42.659
I know you hate that question.

723
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:43.920
Yes, of course she's a companion.

724
00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:44.940
She travelled in the TARDIS.

725
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:45.300
Yeah.

726
00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:47.159
I...

727
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:48.960
She's in 2 episodes as well.

728
00:34:49.019 --> 00:34:51.119
She had four, four, four.

729
00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:52.920
Yeah, she's even in deep breath.

730
00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:54.000
Yeah, me on deep breath.

731
00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:54.659
Yeah, yeah.

732
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:58.980
Yeah, I think she actually gets more appearances in the show than

733
00:34:58.980 --> 00:35:02.579
Jenna Coleman got before she got in the times.

734
00:35:03.300 --> 00:35:06.000
I really like her as a character.

735
00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:09.659
And the funny thing is, like having been a teacher in the UK in

736
00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:13.019
her 1st 2 appearances, I'm like, oh, yes, I had students like

737
00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:13.260
you.

738
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.780
And then sort of in the caretaker.

739
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.940
I'm like, actually, no, you know, you're a bit spiky.

740
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.340
You're a bit cheeky, but you're clever.

741
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:26.639
And then in this where she's so empathetic and scared but brave at

742
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:27.420
the same time.

743
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:29.280
I really like her.

744
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:33.480
And I think the actress does a great job of conveying her

745
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:33.900
character.

746
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:39.840
In terms of how the doctor treats her, they cut out some, they cut

747
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:42.900
out a bit where he actually gets the psychic paper back from her

748
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:44.760
but it's still only showing that he's over 18.

749
00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:45.480
Oh, really?

750
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:48.900
And he turns at court and he says...

751
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:50.519
What have you done with it?

752
00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:55.199
You've broken it It's covered in sticky stuff, i.e. Psycho.

753
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.739
Thank God that didn't make it.

754
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.199
Whilst I haven't had a todd experience with the episode.

755
00:36:01.260 --> 00:36:02.820
I have had a t experience with her.

756
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.820
I actually think she's great and really good.

757
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:08.340
And I actually like the sort of throwaway line because it's gone

758
00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:11.519
and you missed it in the beginning where Capaldi says, you know

759
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:12.539
what's a Courtney Woods?

760
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:13.920
What is Courtney Woods?

761
00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:18.059
She was great last week.

762
00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:19.440
I think she's really good.

763
00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:21.960
I was super worried because I spent a lot of last week's episode

764
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:25.679
being embarrassed by how horrible the doctor was being to people

765
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:27.300
who aren't Jenna.

766
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.960
And like, I'm kind of happy for the doctor to be kind of...

767
00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:32.400
Well, because yeah, that.

768
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:35.760
But, like, I'm happy for him to be mean to Clara because Clara can

769
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:36.179
take it.

770
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:37.559
You know, she can more than take it.

771
00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:38.280
She doesn't care.

772
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:39.480
So it doesn't upset anyone.

773
00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:41.340
And he is rude to her.

774
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:42.480
Like, he tells her to shut up.

775
00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:46.320
He, you know, like he's rude to her, but he is absolutely

776
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.360
concerned for her welfare.

777
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:51.179
Like, and when she's in danger, he doesn't do any of that sort of

778
00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:54.239
stuff that he did in Into the Dalek and kind of ignore it or

779
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:54.599
whatever.

780
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:59.579
He's seriously, and I think, I think he calms down actually

781
00:36:59.579 --> 00:37:01.860
probably after the caretaker.

782
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.539
I think he's at his worst in the caretaker and from here on in, he

783
00:37:06.539 --> 00:37:07.440
settles down a bit.

784
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:13.679
That feeling of her not feeling special than making her feel like

785
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:17.880
she's not special, is quite like meeting Jenna Coleman for a photo

786
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:18.300
shoot.

787
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:21.179
He is very, very similar experience.

788
00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:22.920
Sorry.

789
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:30.000
I actually think that that's a bit crummy, actually, because it's

790
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.699
kind of, you know, this thing, how young people need to be

791
00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:35.820
reassured and need to be told they're special and if you don't

792
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:40.199
tell them that you're kind of, you know, ruining them forever and

793
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:40.679
stuff like that.

794
00:37:40.739 --> 00:37:43.260
I actually thought that was a little bit weak and you would think

795
00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:47.099
that someone like Courtney would just go, well, actually, sod you

796
00:37:47.099 --> 00:37:48.539
then, if you don't think I'm special.

797
00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:49.139
Who cares?

798
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.440
But the thing is, that's the whole thing, that she has all this

799
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:57.780
bravado and all this front, but actually she is a sensitive and

800
00:37:57.780 --> 00:37:58.500
thinking person.

801
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:01.920
And when she's talking about the doctor saying she's not special.

802
00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:04.920
That speech she makes at the beginning.

803
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:07.320
Like, you know, you kicked a hole in the side of my head and then

804
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:08.699
you just walked off.

805
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:10.920
That's what impresses the doctor.

806
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:15.300
The doctor goes, oh, no, the reason you're upset is you actually

807
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:16.619
want to know more.

808
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:21.179
And that's a thing a lot of teenagers go through of this period of

809
00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:24.300
not wanting to externally show that they care, but actually caring

810
00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:24.659
a lot.

811
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:26.340
And what's the doctor going through right now?

812
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:30.539
He doesn't want to show that he cares when he actually cares a

813
00:38:30.539 --> 00:38:30.780
lot.

814
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:34.679
That plays out in a horrendous way at the end of this episode.

815
00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:36.239
I'm not saying horrendous in execution.

816
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:38.820
I'm saying, oh my god, he does a horrendous thing.

817
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:41.039
For the right reasons.

818
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:43.679
For a right reason, possibly.

819
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:44.340
Yeah.

820
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.099
But I, like I think she's really good.

821
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:51.000
I really liked the thing where Clara says, why don't you just call

822
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:51.539
me Clara?

823
00:38:51.539 --> 00:38:55.320
and she says, no, actually, I think I'm calling you miss, miss

824
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:56.400
which is pretty great.

825
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:57.900
Yeah.

826
00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:00.000
That's what I call Jetta Coleman.

827
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:06.480
The other thing was when the lead astronaut was older Courtney

828
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:10.920
when she 1st sees Clara, she says, oh my god, Mrs. Pink.

829
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:17.099
And then she mentions, oh, I went to Cole Hill school and you were

830
00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:18.420
one of the governors, blah, blah, blah.

831
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:19.679
But then when they call mission control.

832
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:21.960
Mission control says, oh my god, this is pink.

833
00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:23.579
And Clara's just like, what the hell?

834
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.940
How many people do I teach?

835
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.820
So one of the big problems, and it was particularly a problem in

836
00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:43.920
the United States, after this episode came out, was the idea that

837
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:49.019
it was an anti-abortion allegory or that it had an anti-abortion

838
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:49.380
message.

839
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.039
And I think probably most of that comes from the language that

840
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:59.760
they're using around the dragon thing when it's still not

841
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:00.480
hatched.

842
00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:04.500
And so Courtney calls it a baby and says it hasn't even been born

843
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:04.980
yet.

844
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.440
Clara refers to it as a life.

845
00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:08.880
You know, we're going to kill a life.

846
00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:13.380
And so all of that stuff, I think, resonated in America more than

847
00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:14.940
it probably did in England.

848
00:40:15.059 --> 00:40:16.800
Was intended to, I suspect.

849
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:17.460
Yeah.

850
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.019
I think it's unlikely to be that.

851
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.000
I just can't see how it's about that.

852
00:40:21.059 --> 00:40:27.840
And what we have is, in fact, 3 women in a room with a man who has

853
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.960
made himself absent getting to make this decision.

854
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:35.579
It's not, you know, the kind of thing where it's various

855
00:40:35.579 --> 00:40:39.539
conservative politicians making that decision for women.

856
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:44.460
It just seems to me to be not commensurate, like not relevant.

857
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:45.360
Yeah.

858
00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:49.980
I've seen some stuff where people read things as being anti

859
00:40:49.139 --> 00:40:53.519
abortion because a woman is pregnant and decides to have the

860
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:53.940
child.

861
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.579
Like, it's like, no, no, that's the whole point is that you can

862
00:40:56.579 --> 00:40:57.300
choose what to do.

863
00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:02.280
And if anything, I think it's a very long boat, very long bow to

864
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.500
draw, and I think they've got some issues over there that they

865
00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:06.300
need to think about separately.

866
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:08.159
It's a doctor episode.

867
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:13.800
Yeah, I think Sandifer actually writes that there's no mother

868
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:15.659
whose bodily autonomy is being threatened.

869
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:18.119
So, you know, it's not about that.

870
00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:21.900
And also, I think the moment where it's definitively not about

871
00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:25.079
that, because, you know, Clara's saying it's a life, Courtney's

872
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:28.920
saying it's a baby that hasn't been born and Lunvik says, what if

873
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:30.420
it comes out and kills us all?

874
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.260
And that's not a sentence that's regularly part of the abortion to

875
00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:34.679
pain.

876
00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:38.039
You know, it's like this is this is the moment where, no, it's

877
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:39.360
about an alien creature.

878
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:40.559
Yeah.

879
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:41.280
Yeah.

880
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:43.980
And also, yeah, I don't think there's any sort of proponents of

881
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:46.739
abortion who are suggesting that an abortion should proceed when

882
00:41:46.739 --> 00:41:48.420
the mother is in labour.

883
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

884
00:41:50.099 --> 00:41:51.900
And the baby is brought to term.

885
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:52.920
Like it's just odd.

886
00:41:52.980 --> 00:41:56.039
And the funny thing is, like, no one then mentions the line the

887
00:41:56.039 --> 00:41:59.579
doctor has, which is we went back to Berlin in 1937 and you didn't

888
00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:01.260
ask me to pop out and kill Hitler.

889
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:04.079
And it's like, this thing is baby space dragon Hitler.

890
00:42:04.139 --> 00:42:04.860
Maybe.

891
00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:08.340
It's not going to be very good at art.

892
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:09.360
That's going to be a problem.

893
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:13.800
The other thing that Santa says is, if there had been some women

894
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:18.000
among the creatives that that might have been something that they

895
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:21.840
would have picked up on, and perhaps we might have been able to be

896
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:25.739
a bit more careful about that, but it doesn't seem to me to be

897
00:42:25.739 --> 00:42:28.619
about that or, you know, analogous to that in any way.

898
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:32.639
And certainly I think harnesses said that he wasn't intending

899
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:33.780
anything of the kind.

900
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:34.800
Yeah, he yeah.

901
00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:37.500
He's actually said, if I was going to have done that, I would have

902
00:42:37.500 --> 00:42:38.940
been a lot more careful and subtle.

903
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:40.199
Yeah, yeah.

904
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:44.099
Even allowing for all that, I think that drawing that inference

905
00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:47.760
from this is still drawing an incredibly long bow and I think it's

906
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.780
it's being grossly unfair to the to the material to suggest that

907
00:42:51.780 --> 00:42:53.699
that's even a thing. think that's right.

908
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.519
So, decision is made.

909
00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:11.820
Moon is an egg, moon is hatched, moon lays egg. doctor tells

910
00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:18.000
astronaut to walk 2500 miles to NASA. drops Courtney off for

911
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.880
double geography and you know, I don't know what's more terrifying

912
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:25.139
what she's been through or double geography. and then has, you

913
00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:27.300
know, a nice pleasant discussion with Clara.

914
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.340
It was going to end with them having a picnic on the beach, by the

915
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:29.579
way.

916
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:31.380
But instead we get this.

917
00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:35.940
I think it's incredibly well acted by Jenna.

918
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.699
I think she's amazing in it absolutely.

919
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:41.219
She's properly good, isn't she?

920
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.539
Nails out.

921
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.239
She's an incredible actor.

922
00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:45.900
She really is.

923
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.980
She's, um, it's such a heightened moment and it's building, it's

924
00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:53.099
all building to, especially to next week and the, the season

925
00:43:53.099 --> 00:43:58.559
finale of just like her going from, I'm trying to be your carer to

926
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:01.980
you really don't care about anyone properly, do you?

927
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:03.300
And I'm done with this.

928
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:08.880
And it's, and it's almost repeated at the start of dark water, I

929
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:11.460
think, with the keys and all the, all this thing.

930
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:12.059
Yeah.

931
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:16.079
It's really, it's, it's really well set up and it's, it's a great

932
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:19.079
way of, and I just love the Danny Pink bit at the end where he

933
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:21.900
goes, you can't leave someone while you're angry like that.

934
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.739
You've got to do it when you're calm and that sets up the Orient

935
00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:26.699
Express one so well.

936
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:29.699
It's a great ending considering what's happened.

937
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:32.940
I mean, it is set up at the end of the last episode where Danny

938
00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:37.619
gets her to promise that if the doctor puts her in a position that

939
00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:44.940
is too much for her, that she should tell him and then tell Danny

940
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:45.539
himself.

941
00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:48.599
And so that's her doing that.

942
00:44:48.659 --> 00:44:53.460
But I just think, like, it's a big kind of melodramatic speech, but

943
00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:59.219
there's a real proper TV kind of reality to the emotion she brings

944
00:44:59.219 --> 00:44:59.639
to it.

945
00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:01.500
She's really, really good.

946
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.000
She's really good.

947
00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:04.980
And I think the dialogue is good too.

948
00:45:05.699 --> 00:45:07.260
Yeah.

949
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:08.639
All the dialogue is great.

950
00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:10.440
I think it's a spectacular sequence.

951
00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:14.460
I think she is better than, you know, anything we've seen in

952
00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:15.599
Doctor Who to this point.

953
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:20.519
My only issue is that I just wish that the 40 odd minutes that

954
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.179
were before it were a different episode because it does.

955
00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:27.300
No, no, no, it doesn't fortunately pollute my ability to

956
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:31.800
appreciate her anger because I'm there being perplexed and this is

957
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:32.820
what's going on here?

958
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:34.380
This is a bit crap and this is rubbish.

959
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.679
And so I'm not getting the payoff that you guys are getting

960
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:40.559
because I haven't had the experience for the previous 40 minutes

961
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:41.760
that you guys have had.

962
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:44.760
But I still recognise that that is awesome.

963
00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:48.420
I remember Peter saying to me once that he really had issue with

964
00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:52.619
when she says, uh, say that again or whatever.

965
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:56.099
I'll slap you so hard, you'll regenerate. which he didn't say

966
00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:57.780
where it was from and I couldn't remember where it was from

967
00:45:57.780 --> 00:45:58.079
either.

968
00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:00.360
But then when I saw it yesterday, I went, oh, that's right. from

969
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:00.539
this.

970
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.400
But that line perfectly works.

971
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:07.440
Yeah, I think in this context because she is so cross.

972
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:10.559
And she has got, you know, she is able to whack a punch at this

973
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.440
moment, which will be so hard that it'll basically force him to

974
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:13.920
regenerate.

975
00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:16.380
I think that's actually a really well-placed line, actually.

976
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:18.059
Yeah, me too.

977
00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:21.179
There's a line that was cut, which I think would have slowed it

978
00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:23.699
down, and I think it was right to cut it, but I'd just like to

979
00:46:23.699 --> 00:46:25.800
read it for the listeners now, where Clara sort of further

980
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:29.340
explains her anger, saying before my mum died, when I was a little

981
00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:29.699
girl.

982
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:33.179
She said to me, it doesn't matter where I was in the jungle or the

983
00:46:33.179 --> 00:46:34.860
desert or on the moon.

984
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:38.699
However lost I might feel, I'd never really be lost because she'd

985
00:46:38.699 --> 00:46:39.420
always be there.

986
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:42.900
She'd always come and find me, which ties back to rings her back

987
00:46:42.900 --> 00:46:43.260
at 10.

988
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:44.699
And then she died.

989
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:47.400
And then it was the doctor who started coming to find me.

990
00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:51.840
I thought she'd sent him, and then he died, and he came back as

991
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:52.500
something different.

992
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:53.519
Wow.

993
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:58.500
Which, you know, would have really cut another sort of cutting

994
00:46:58.500 --> 00:46:59.639
moment to the heart there.

995
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:03.000
But I'm glad they lost it because I think it would have been hard

996
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:06.300
to maintain her intensity because all of her lines are very short

997
00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:09.239
very sharp, but she's getting the point across while the doctor's

998
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:12.360
babbling in his usual way to diffuse tension.

999
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:15.000
She's getting her point across really well and there's a moment

1000
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:18.300
where he realises, no, she's really properly angry.

1001
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:22.739
And Peter Copaldi's doctor looks absolutely lost for the 1st

1002
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:23.159
time.

1003
00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:28.440
And like the bravado goes and he's like, no, no, no, that was me

1004
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:29.340
respecting you.

1005
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:30.599
That was me giving you the choice.

1006
00:47:30.659 --> 00:47:36.420
And it's, it's almost like it makes, it makes it a little bit

1007
00:47:36.420 --> 00:47:39.300
disappointing to me because watching it this time, I'm like, well

1008
00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:41.460
his whole speech of this isn't my earthwhile, but.

1009
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:45.239
He could have taken her to one side and said, Clara, a human needs

1010
00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:46.199
to make this decision.

1011
00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:50.280
If I make it for you, it's always going to be me coming to save

1012
00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:51.300
the human race.

1013
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:55.079
The humans need to, and you know, that is a way he could have been

1014
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.679
respecting her, but that doesn't create the drama, and I

1015
00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.199
appreciate the drama we get because it's so well acted.

1016
00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:04.920
And, um, yeah, we wouldn't have this brilliant moment and it

1017
00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:06.480
wouldn't develop the relationship in the same way.

1018
00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:07.800
So it would have been a damp squib.

1019
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:09.420
I understand why it doesn't happen, but it's another of those

1020
00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:13.679
moments where this could have been solved by talking like adults.

1021
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:21.599
I think there's a problem with the actual, there's a problem with

1022
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:26.159
the show at this point, which is that everything is so determined

1023
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:28.500
and we know the history of everything.

1024
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:34.199
And so you can't set anything in 2049 and credibly have the doctor

1025
00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:37.199
not know what's going to happen.

1026
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:42.719
And so when the doctor says there's a gray area and I just can't

1027
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.139
tell and I need not to be here.

1028
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.619
It's so hand wavy and so kind of unconvincing.

1029
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:54.179
And and it's the same problem that I have with Waters of Mars

1030
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:59.400
where the doctor isn't allowed to save people because he doesn't

1031
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.400
want to contradict their Wikipedia pages or something.

1032
00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:05.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1033
00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:06.119
It's not real.

1034
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:08.340
There's no real moral imperative there.

1035
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:13.320
And so, you know, like he obviously makes the decision that it

1036
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:14.039
should be them.

1037
00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:17.039
He expects her to be great.

1038
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:20.219
Like he does, I think, expect her to be grateful.

1039
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:24.900
So I'm a little bit like you, Simon, whereas I think this is a

1040
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:25.679
good episode.

1041
00:49:25.739 --> 00:49:30.119
I think that the reason that the doctor can't be there just even

1042
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:36.539
to watch them doesn't properly land, I think, but that doesn't

1043
00:49:36.539 --> 00:49:39.539
undermine that scene, particularly for me, because just the truth

1044
00:49:39.539 --> 00:49:40.500
of her acting.

1045
00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:44.099
And I do think too, that the big speech about my mother and stuff

1046
00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:49.380
like that, that's a screenwriter's thing and I don't think it

1047
00:49:49.380 --> 00:49:50.039
would have helped.

1048
00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:53.579
And I think what does work there is you can imagine someone, you

1049
00:49:53.579 --> 00:49:57.719
can just about, imagine someone saying that sort of stuff in that

1050
00:49:57.719 --> 00:49:58.559
sort of context.

1051
00:50:01.019 --> 00:50:03.960
I never been a big fan of the, the, the key moments in time and

1052
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:06.179
all that sort of stuff where there's waters of Mars and this.

1053
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:08.579
I just find it just, we just, I just don't care.

1054
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:09.360
Don't worry about it.

1055
00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:12.000
Sometimes we're allowed to change history and sometimes we're

1056
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:12.119
not.

1057
00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:14.880
I don't need to constantly explain to me when it's okay and when

1058
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:15.300
it's not.

1059
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:18.539
And oh, oh, because, you know, the moon is in conjunction with

1060
00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:21.300
this, that means it's okay for us to try and change history or now

1061
00:50:21.300 --> 00:50:22.139
I can't do it.

1062
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.800
It's over you over to you or as I said, you know, okay, so the

1063
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:29.219
moon in this version of the future, the moon stops existing in

1064
00:50:29.219 --> 00:50:29.820
20149.

1065
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:30.539
Do you know what I mean?

1066
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:32.820
No, it's back. frigging story.

1067
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:33.360
You know?

1068
00:50:33.659 --> 00:50:36.059
The egg base is set 20 years after this.

1069
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:36.840
Yeah, yeah.

1070
00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:38.820
I know, but that's a different future.

1071
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:42.480
I mean, how many different 2070s have we've already seen multiple

1072
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:42.960
futures.

1073
00:50:43.019 --> 00:50:46.800
It's, you know, how many different kinds of ways have the Daleks

1074
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:48.719
invaded the earth in the 22nd century, you know?

1075
00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:53.340
Why does nobody on Bowiebase, Wang, go, oh, yeah, I remember where

1076
00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:54.539
the moon hatched.

1077
00:50:54.659 --> 00:50:55.440
Okay.

1078
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:57.900
And the doctor's just like, I'm dealing with enough things right

1079
00:50:57.900 --> 00:50:58.199
now.

1080
00:50:58.260 --> 00:51:01.320
I am the time Lord victorious, but I'm not dealing with the moon

1081
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:01.800
as an egg.

1082
00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:05.099
Do you know my biggest reservation about this?

1083
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:08.099
And I think I was wrong, but my biggest reservation about this

1084
00:51:08.099 --> 00:51:14.519
episode originally was that I thought it actually did some of the

1085
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:17.340
stuff that already happens in Waters of Mars.

1086
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:25.320
So remember that humanity goes off into space and it's Adelaide's

1087
00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:27.420
granddaughter or something.

1088
00:51:27.420 --> 00:51:30.360
And, you know, Adelaide goes into space because the Daleks invade

1089
00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:34.500
in the stolen earth and then humanity reaches out to the stars and

1090
00:51:34.500 --> 00:51:36.960
then it turns out that it's, you know, a descendant of hers.

1091
00:51:37.019 --> 00:51:40.559
It's the 1st person to do faster than light travel or something

1092
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:43.679
and that's how humanity goes into space, and that's what makes

1093
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:46.679
what happens on Bowie Bay so important.

1094
00:51:46.739 --> 00:51:49.559
So I thought that we'd kind of trod that ground a little bit

1095
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:50.159
before.

1096
00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:53.760
And come to think of it, we've had a lot of it recently because we

1097
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:55.739
had Adelaide Brooks granddaughter.

1098
00:51:55.800 --> 00:52:00.420
We've had the child of Dugres, Scott, and Jessica Rain in Hyde.

1099
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:06.239
We've had awesome pink and now we've got the, well, the actions of

1100
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:06.900
Lundwig.

1101
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:08.820
It's not specifically, it's going to be your relatives or your

1102
00:52:08.820 --> 00:52:11.400
relatives, except you, Courtney, you get to be present.

1103
00:52:11.460 --> 00:52:13.019
You know.

1104
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.320
One thing I do love about when the doctor's going on about, oh

1105
00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:17.639
humanity is going to go out and do this.

1106
00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:22.139
He seems to be very, there's a mix of emotion there.

1107
00:52:22.139 --> 00:52:27.119
And it sort of, it sort of, again, reminds me of Tom Baker saying

1108
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.400
you know, humanity spreading out like a wave or a disease.

1109
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:30.900
Oh, disease, yeah, exactly.

1110
00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:33.960
Yeah, and because the story's been about, is humanity going to be

1111
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:39.000
a race of murderers or a race that waits for science to happen and

1112
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:43.199
sees what happened next, there does seem to be a melancholia there

1113
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:44.280
which I really appreciate.

1114
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:47.699
It's a much subtler Tom Baker era reference and we get in the 1st

1115
00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:49.380
scene, which I thought was too bad.

1116
00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:55.860
The way he closes his eyes on the beach and slowly breathes in, and

1117
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:57.960
I thought, and I don't usually have thoughts like this, it's like

1118
00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:02.280
he's reconciled the different timelines and the different futures

1119
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:06.300
which was the gray area, and now he can see it clearly that

1120
00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:07.380
everything's going to be okay.

1121
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:09.599
Yeah, I think that's absolutely that.

1122
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.659
He's doing some weird time or thing.

1123
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:14.159
And I actually quite like that.

1124
00:53:14.219 --> 00:53:16.619
I don't mind that at all I think that's really, really great.

1125
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:18.780
And how else are you going to do it?

1126
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:21.840
You're not going to have a voiceover from like Vig's

1127
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:22.320
granddaughter?

1128
00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:22.800
or something?

1129
00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:24.179
Timothy Dalton.

1130
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:28.019
That's just going to make the episode first.

1131
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:29.340
So, you see, it is possible.

1132
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:30.900
It is more small.

1133
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:34.260
But I was just going to say that the program is often, like you're

1134
00:53:34.260 --> 00:53:37.199
saying, in Waters of Mars and in seeds of death as well, has

1135
00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:40.199
rejected this idea of, you know, we have enough.

1136
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:42.300
We've we've seen far enough.

1137
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:45.360
We don't need to see any further and the program has always

1138
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:49.019
rejected that it's always wanted us to strive to go to the next

1139
00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:53.340
peak to push on and further and further and higher.

1140
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:54.960
And I think that's a great positive.

1141
00:53:54.960 --> 00:54:00.000
And I'm very, very grateful that at least that is the moral of the

1142
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:03.000
story, one of the morals of the story, such as it is that we get.

1143
00:54:03.059 --> 00:54:04.079
Yeah.

1144
00:54:04.139 --> 00:54:07.559
There's that miserable speech that Lundvig gives about going up

1145
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:11.099
into space and discovering that everything is dead, that

1146
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:16.440
everything out here is dead, and that we just inhabit the skin of

1147
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:16.860
a planet.

1148
00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:21.420
And one of the things that makes that resonate is that that's

1149
00:54:21.420 --> 00:54:22.199
actually true.

1150
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:25.980
You know, that's the real world in which we find ourselves.

1151
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:29.940
Yeah, yeah, but I think, you know, in all likelihood.

1152
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:36.960
So what we're being invited to accept is the weird, insane

1153
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:42.420
overpopulated, sort of daft universe of Doctor Who as the

1154
00:54:42.420 --> 00:54:43.260
alternative.

1155
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:08.519
Well, Elissa, that's all we have time for this week.

1156
00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:12.599
We'll be back next week for some champagne, soft jazz, and

1157
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:16.380
inevitable certain death in Mummy on the Orient Express.

1158
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:20.460
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1159
00:55:20.460 --> 00:55:23.760
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1160
00:55:22.260 --> 00:55:26.400
com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter

1161
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:30.179
and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger

1162
00:55:30.179 --> 00:55:34.019
Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek

1163
00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:34.380
project.

1164
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:39.239
Until next time, take the stabilisers off your bike and make a

1165
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:39.900
good decision.

1166
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:42.659
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1167
00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:44.820
Patronising?

1168
00:55:44.940 --> 00:55:45.719
Get, good night.

1169
00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:46.860
Please just kill me.

1170
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:55.559
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

1171
00:55:55.559 --> 00:55:57.420
Brendan Jones, Simon Moore, and Colin Neal.

1172
00:55:57.480 --> 00:55:59.400
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1173
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:02.639
This episode, the Goldilocks Zone, was recorded on the 29th of

1174
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:05.460
January 2023 and released on the 28th of May.

1175
00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:09.840
Of course, if Peter Capoli had stayed for a 4th season, he would

1176
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:12.000
have discovered that many other things were actually completely

1177
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:16.079
different things, but Mars is a bar, obviously, and the Himalayas

1178
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:19.380
are a walls Vienetta, and that the sun is a massive cylinder 5

1179
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:22.139
light years long, which revolves in such a way that we only ever

1180
00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:23.280
get to see one end.

1181
00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:32.460
Have you gone bananas, Clara?

1182
00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.340
Great impersonation.

1183
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.079
I'm glad you did.

1184
00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:39.599
That was really good. not even come close to that.

1185
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:45.719
The way he says that lie.

1186
00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:48.179
He comes in and goes, the moon's an egg.

1187
00:56:48.300 --> 00:56:49.980
And he's so excited.

1188
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:53.099
Clara looks at him and goes, what?

1189
00:56:54.059 --> 00:56:56.699
And like she double takes?

1190
00:56:56.760 --> 00:56:59.099
It's so tremendous.

1191
00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:00.420
It's so much fun.

1192
00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:05.699
And that, just the joy in that moment for him, like how excited he

1193
00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:06.480
is about that.

1194
00:57:06.539 --> 00:57:08.400
I just think is absolutely wonderful.

1195
00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:12.179
And I think, because you have to read it as Peter Capoldi being

1196
00:57:12.179 --> 00:57:15.059
excited about it just as much as the doctor is, I think.

1197
00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:19.380
I love it So good.

1198
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:20.280
So good.

1199
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:22.739
All right, that's it.

1200
00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:23.400
Right?

1201
00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:24.059
I think we're done.

1202
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:24.840
I think we're done.

1203
00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:25.619
I think yeah.