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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:02:55

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that was expecting to talk about

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Kiefer Sutherland and Near Death experiences this week.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Brendan.

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And I'm Stephen.

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Well, since the doctor 1st compared time travel to television back

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in 1963, we've been eagerly following his two-dimensional

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adventures.

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But what happens when a 3rd dimension comes along or a 4th or a

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5th?

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Let's find out as we discuss flat blind.

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When was the last time that we had two great debut episodes in a

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row from a new writer?

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I'm thinking 1977.

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Really?

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Yeah, Chris Boucher?

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So not Hyde and Rings of Ackerton then.

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Not quite, although one of them's pretty good.

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Yeah, that's true.

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That's true.

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So this is the script that Matheson originally submitted or one of

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a number of scripts that he submitted, I think.

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Yeah, this episode nine, but I think Mummy on the Orient Express

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was his follow-up.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So this is extremely strong, isn't it?

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Like, I just think that we're at a point in the season now where

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we've been getting some pretty strong outings.

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Oh, absolutely agree.

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And for me, actually, this is the best script of series 8.

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Okay.

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Yep.

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I'll go into that later.

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I think it's the most moffety of all the new Moffat writers.

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I think Jamie Matheson channels him the best, even so far as

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having, as we'll talk about, a big high concept monster that

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hasn't been done before.

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Yeah, it really is fantastic.

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And um, Jamie Matheson had uh, submitted ideas to Julie and

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Russell way back in 2004.

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Wow.

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But they're like, oh, the slates will come back next year and then

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he went off and wrote a film called frequently asked questions

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about time travel, which is a rather excellent time loop time

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paradox comedy film with Dean Lennox Kelly set entirely in a pub.

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I have a low rent sequel by Christopher H.

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Bidmead.

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And then, of course, you know, being human comes along and yeah

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Jamie doesn't get a chance to pitch Doctor Who again until 2010.

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I'm trying to work out exactly what's good about this.

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I guess it is literally what you said, Peter, that this is nothing

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that's ever been done before.

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And we have had the Tata shrink before, haven't we, in Legopolis

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and Planet of Giants and things, but we've never had just the

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outside shrinking, which is absolutely a stroke of genius.

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And it is, in fact, the cutest shrunken Tartar, since Orum plucked

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it from the insides of the...

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I mean he's...

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So that's brilliant, but it also has a really properly terrifying

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monster.

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Yeah, so we have the boneless, and Jamie Matheson's, they're

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basically, um, as they were in Jamie Matheson's initial concept

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his main thing was that they would sort of absorb your body a bit

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at a time, which we kind of see in this, and then kill you by

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snapping your neck, which Stephen Boppett and Brian mentioned, said

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ah, maybe we can tone that down.

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But Jamie was very insistent that we need to have the sound of

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bones breaking to tell the audience that these people are dead.

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So I respect that.

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Well, but it's also the sort of being flattened thing.

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Like, I think that they're proper Doctor Who monsters in that, they

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kill you in a sort of alarming and strange way.

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A unique way.

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And I think that that's something a new series has always done

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isn't it?

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Like, you know, the way the zygons kill you by turning you into a

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tumbleweed or the secret acts kill you and you're a sort of

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smouldering pile of bones or whatever, like a characteristic

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killing move is an important thing for a monster and this

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absolutely has it.

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But it also just relies on what we're now able to do as well.

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You could never have had the boneless, even during the RTD era

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because the technology wasn't there to kind of make it happen, I

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think.

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And it's kind of like, it's a nice synthesis of the CG and the

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soundscape, so that the noise that they make is really great.

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And also the fact that a lot of the effects are actually done

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pretty practically.

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So while we do see the boneless.

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I can't say the boneless, it reminds me of something you'd eat

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from a KFC bucket.

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You do see the boneless and they look great, but often they're

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just suggested.

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So you have all those lovely shots down the end of the subway

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tunnel with just the lights at the end and they're kind of like

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movements and shadows and it's a really effective realisation as a

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whole.

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I think that's the best part of it for me as a monster, the fact

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that they're sort of in the liminal spaces, in the shadows.

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It's the way that Stephen Moffatt loves to present his, you know

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aliens and monsters.

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They sort of skulk in the shadows and they're perhaps not everyday

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things, but, you know, they sort of live in the walls.

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And I think that's wonderful.

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I think that kind of juxtaposition, I guess, of something that's

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really mundane, but also incredibly spooky, is what had so much

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atmosphere to the story.

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Yeah, I mean, I think once we're down in the tunnels and stuff

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we're in a place that's a little bit less recognisable, but in the

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houses, on the estate, and particularly, the house that the young

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constable is killed in...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's fantastic.

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But with its sort of horrible wallpaper and all of that sort of

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thing.

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You know, like it's got night terror sort of vibes.

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It's a horrible overdecorated flat.

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And then just to have that, like a very ordinary place, that's the

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place where they get you.

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Yeah, like I think that that's extremely good.

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Um, and they're just sort of proper solid, brilliant conceptual

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Doctor Who monsters.

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So much so that we don't even, you know, this is the 2nd episode

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in a robot, Matheson, with a monster that doesn't speak that we

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talk to and it will respond, but it doesn't ever respond in

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words.

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So it's a weird, unknowable monster.

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And in fact, it's so strange that the TARDIS translation circuits

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can't translate for us.

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It's completely incomprehensible to us.

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And he'll repeat that trick again in oxygen in series 10.

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Oh, yeah, which is another brilliant episode.

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It's really great monsters an episode.

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But also, like all good monsters, they give rise to really great

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set pieces.

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And so that bit where PC Forest is kind of like flattened into the

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ground.

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It's really quite shocking and like quite scary for a kid, I

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think.

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But then that brilliant set piece where Clara and Rigsy have to

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escape and they do so by hopping onto that kind of suspended chair

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from the ceiling and rolling out the window and get away from it.

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And it all comes organically from the idea. that's what makes it

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really great.

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Yeah, yeah, it's really good, that, is it?

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And it's fantastic locating the conversation between her and Danny

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on the phone at that point in the episode while they're doing that

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set piece.

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It's terrific staff.

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This so much feels like an episode that Mothat wrote.

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It feels like it's all of that standard.

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Yeah, I agree.

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And I think it's in those sort of set pieces, including the egg

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chair that's suspended from the ceiling there.

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That's something straight out of a moth of sex comedy scene.

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I'm sure certain.

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I can't help but wonder. hasn't got his fingerprints on this

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script or is this actually Matheson who's come up with it because

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it's so moffety.

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Are you saying has he got his fingerprints on the script or on the

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egg chair?

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Well, it is very more fatty.

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I mean, I don't know.

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I mean, mommy on the Orient Express must have been handed to Jamie

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Matheson as a broad idea, but this feels new and fresh as well.

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And so I just don't know.

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Yeah, um, this was one of 4 ideas he brought to the production

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team for the 2014 season because when he pitched in 2010, um

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there's not much known about the idea, but Stephen Moffat

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basically said, you know, this is tense, it has pace, it has

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character, it doesn't have a villain or a monster.

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Right.

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And and so Matheson kind of went away going, okay, I need to have

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a villain or a monster.

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Matheson, before becoming a TV writer, was a stand-up comedian and

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good friends with, at the time, a lesser known comedian, but now

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far better known comedian, Toby Haydoke.

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Ah, okay.

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And so Matheson sat down with Toby and said, I have these ideas.

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So he brings 4 ideas to the production and basically said to Toby

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have these been done in Doctor Who before?

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So that's how we get something so unique?

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Right, thanks to Toby Hader, probably going, well, the Tardis was

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shrunk in Planet of Giants, Legopolis, and Carnival of Monsters.

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However, not quite the way you've done it, but avoid using fish

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islands because we had that in Lagopolis.

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No, don't go.

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Don't do idea number two.

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That was the monster of peladon.

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Well, that makes a lot of sense, and, Brennan, because I think you

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do get these set pieces like the egg chair.

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You know, and sort of flashes of the doctor doing goofy things

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like dancing in the Tartars, and you get the horrible pie joke

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which sort of channels the 5 doctors.

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And Matheson was a stand-up comic beforehand.

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Maybe it is actually all him because it's comedic gold, all of

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it.

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Maybe that's why it feels like he's channelling off that.

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Yeah, well, Muppet's a sitcom writer as well.

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And, I mean, this does have the sort of Moffat monster, like the

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Vashtarada or the silence, you know, where their high concept and

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they basically kill you and you don't really know why.

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Like they don't talk to you about it.

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And they can be here, right?

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In the room.

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And in this case, in the walls.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, so it is a moffity kind of monster. not some guy in a rubber

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suit.

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It's not a draconian or a zigon or something.

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It is that sort of weird conceptual monster.

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And I do like how fabulously evil they are.

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Like they seem to be just totally evil, even though we never hear

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them speak.

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Yeah, you know, there's that moment where the doctor sort of

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theorises that perhaps they don't understand our 3D world and so

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that they don't realise that they're hurting us, but it is made

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completely clear to us that, yes, they do and they're fine with

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it.

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But again, that feels so lofty.

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It's like the angels laughing.

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Yeah.

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Time of Angels.

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You know, there's no getting away from how evil they are.

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Doctor, I'm five.

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Fine.

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Fine, I'm fine.

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Yeah.

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Oh, countdown.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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From what I can see of the script development.

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It seems that Moffatt's main input was making it simpler because

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initially you had a group of street kids who were doing graffiti

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and then you had the community service group and then you had a

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group of passengers on the train as well.

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So Moffett's like, no, simplify, simplify, simplify.

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It wasn't a doctor light script to begin with.

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So it was going to start with the doctor and Clara already in

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situ.

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It became the Dr. Light script because of scheduling.

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So it seems like Moffatt's main influence here is just kind of

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saying to Jamie Matheson.

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It's like, you've written like a film.

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We need to make it a TV show.

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Yeah, and so we collapse the graffiti artist into just Rigsy and

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make him a member of the community service people and that he's

249
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.799
there doing community service because he's been doing the

250
00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:50.700
graffiti.

251
00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.960
And I guess because there's that moment, when the community

252
00:12:54.960 --> 00:13:00.960
service people 1st see Clara and she is looking at a, what do we

253
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:01.259
call it?

254
00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:04.080
Like a memorial where people have put flowers and pictures and

255
00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:08.340
things because someone has gone missing and they assume that the

256
00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:13.259
people trapped in the walls are actually a memorial mural, which I

257
00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:15.000
think is so brilliant.

258
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:15.899
It's so good.

259
00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:20.100
And just the response, you know, this really real seeming response

260
00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:22.740
uh, when horrible what's his face.

261
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:23.879
Fenton.

262
00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:24.659
Fenton.

263
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:25.620
God, he's ugly.

264
00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:27.059
He's fabulous, isn't he?

265
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.980
What a great character, actually.

266
00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.919
He's done some big finishing stuff.

267
00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:32.759
He's never not working.

268
00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:35.340
Well, the further adventures of Fenton.

269
00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:36.240
Yeah, no, no.

270
00:13:36.299 --> 00:13:38.340
Yeah, yeah. it's a box set.

271
00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:43.679
He is really good, but when he orders them painted over, you know

272
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.860
like there's a real kind of, because that's the thing too.

273
00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:51.240
This is not our 1st council estate, is it?

274
00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:55.320
But this one is drawn very lightly, I think, but the one

275
00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:58.620
impression that you do get is that it's a community and these

276
00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:01.139
people who've gone missing myst.

277
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.179
It is a bit more broad stroke.

278
00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:05.820
So the Fenton character sort of doesn't come from the power

279
00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:06.419
station.

280
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:06.779
No.

281
00:14:06.779 --> 00:14:10.139
But it's sort of very much in keeping with what's required of the

282
00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:10.500
script.

283
00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:15.600
And I think that moment when the memento mori sort of characters

284
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:19.440
turn around, it's absolutely chilling and it's beautifully

285
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:20.460
realised as well.

286
00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:21.899
Fantastic.

287
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.320
I mean, we've had living pictures before, haven't we?

288
00:14:25.379 --> 00:14:27.299
Well, let's not talk about that.

289
00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.179
Well, I mean, I don't think for her it is as terrible as everyone

290
00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:33.419
suggests, and certainly it's its problem isn't that premise

291
00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:36.299
because the drawings coming to life or people being turned into

292
00:14:36.299 --> 00:14:37.679
drawings is actually great.

293
00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:41.639
It's a, you know, obviously a sort of sapphire and steel thing

294
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:43.799
isn't it, with the photographs.

295
00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:46.559
Remember that four parter, with the people trapped in the

296
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:47.220
photographs.

297
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:48.000
It's very like that.

298
00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:53.879
But here, because it's, it's the 2Dness of it, I think, you know

299
00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:59.399
there's, there's that famous book, isn't there, flatland, which is

300
00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:03.419
by a, um, I think it's an American mathematician.

301
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:10.679
It's quite old, and it's a description of a 2D world by a

302
00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:15.539
character called A Square, and he describes what the experience of

303
00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:17.940
living in 2 dimensions is like.

304
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:23.100
So that's a thing that it's obviously kind of cribbing from, but

305
00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:26.279
also the fact that Doctor Who has always been two-dimensional

306
00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:30.240
because we watch it on a television screen. and its images.

307
00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:34.259
So 2 dimensions can represent 3 dimensions.

308
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.259
And so we can make things move between dimensions.

309
00:15:37.379 --> 00:15:41.220
And I think that's really brilliantly done in the cold open, isn't

310
00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:41.399
it?

311
00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:42.480
Where what's his face?

312
00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:44.580
Is he Robbie or something?

313
00:15:44.580 --> 00:15:46.080
He's got a beardie, witty bald man.

314
00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:51.000
Yeah, we're the beardy guy. gets sort of smeared on the wall and

315
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.639
we only see that it's him because the camera tilts.

316
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.220
It's so brilliantly done.

317
00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.139
It is really well directed, isn't it?

318
00:15:58.200 --> 00:15:59.159
Douglas McKinnon.

319
00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:01.740
Yeah, Doug's Kenyon is hit and miss, but he is, yes.

320
00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:02.460
All kids.

321
00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:03.179
Yeah, yeah.

322
00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.340
But I have a couple of notes on this.

323
00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.940
I mean, if we are comparing it to fear her, and it did make me

324
00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:11.340
think of that, I wouldn't like to think which episode is actually

325
00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:16.019
more 2D. Well, they're both quite too, yeah.

326
00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:22.080
But also that, going back to the community service gang, heavy and

327
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.059
the zeitkaist at this time was misfits.

328
00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:25.500
Ah, yes.

329
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.220
Even if you didn't watch the show from start to finish, the one

330
00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:32.220
image that you took away from it, the image that was kind of

331
00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:35.879
popularised in the advertising and everything was of the community

332
00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:40.080
service gang with the heroes, and they're really horrible

333
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:40.980
overseer.

334
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.159
And so I think that was kind of like that image would have been

335
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.139
strongly drawn on for this.

336
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:51.600
It went from sort of 2009 to 2013 and so, yeah, it was fresh.

337
00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:52.740
Yeah, yeah.

338
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:09.900
What do we think of this being set in Bristol?

339
00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:16.500
Well, I guess Jamie did work on being human, which was set in

340
00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:19.079
Bristol until I became too expensive and they had to move to Barry

341
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:19.619
Island.

342
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:20.700
Yeah okay.

343
00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.440
Isn't this shot on Barry Island?

344
00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:23.339
Yes.

345
00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:24.779
Yeah.

346
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:26.819
I've been to Bristol.

347
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:28.500
Everything does seem a little bit smaller there.

348
00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.019
Oh yeah, I mean, I know I kind of like that.

349
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:35.160
I think that's a thing.

350
00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:37.559
Everything doesn't have to be said in London or Sheffield or

351
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:37.799
whatever.

352
00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:39.180
Bristol's a pretty little town.

353
00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.240
It just made me think, maybe this is where the doctor got the idea

354
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.880
of going to work in a university for however many years it was.

355
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:46.859
Ah, yes, okay.

356
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:48.539
He wants to have liked it, yeah, partner.

357
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:50.700
Also the birthplace of Tom Spillsbury.

358
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:51.539
Ah.

359
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:52.380
Well, there you go.

360
00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:53.339
Is there a plaque?

361
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:59.519
I think it also continues the joke from the beginning of the

362
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.420
season, which is, of course, Clara being dropped off in Glasgow

363
00:18:03.420 --> 00:18:09.480
and, you know, Clara is deceiving both Danny and the doctor and

364
00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:11.460
wanting to lead this double life.

365
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.880
And it's like, I can keep travelling with you so long as you get

366
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.299
me back exactly where we left from at exactly the same time.

367
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:19.920
And he manages the time.

368
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:22.619
It's just Bristol.

369
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.460
Yeah, yeah.

370
00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:26.579
And it leads to, I think, my favourite line in the episode where

371
00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:29.400
the doctor's actually really thrilled that the TARDIS is half size

372
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:30.720
and Clara's complaining.

373
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:35.039
And he says, this is impressive.

374
00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:36.660
This pointing at Clara.

375
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.440
He's annoying.

376
00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:46.079
And yeah, it's one of those moments where that is a line that

377
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:49.740
could be delivered in a really cruel way, but actually it's really

378
00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:53.579
fun because Clara is being annoying because she doesn't care about

379
00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:55.619
the adventure we're about to have.

380
00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:59.339
She just wants us to go sit on a park bench with Danny Pink and

381
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:01.559
have like a Tesco sandwich.

382
00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:05.759
You see, I actually am always in favour of the doctor making fun

383
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:12.059
of Clara, partly because Clara is very self-confident and it's fun

384
00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:15.240
seeing her taken down a peg or two, but also because she's not

385
00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.640
offended by it because he's just a stupid old man.

386
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:21.299
And so no one's feelings are hurt, particularly.

387
00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:23.460
And so all of that is really funny.

388
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:29.220
Like she never reacts with dismay at the doctor making remarks

389
00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:32.759
about how wide her face is or, you know, that sort of thing.

390
00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:35.339
And I'm totally there for it.

391
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:38.339
I think actually, and we've said this already this season that

392
00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:41.400
where Capaldi's doctor doesn't really work is when he's being

393
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:43.799
cruel to other people who don't really deserve it.

394
00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:46.079
That's actually not much fun to watch.

395
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.660
Well, on that point, I think he needed.

396
00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:50.940
I was thinking about it because you've got Fenton in this

397
00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:51.180
episode.

398
00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:54.599
And I think what he needed earlier in the season was a few

399
00:19:54.599 --> 00:20:00.779
unambiguously more evil and rotten people to play off against his

400
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:05.099
kind of gruffer, am I a good man, abrasive quality into focus.

401
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:08.880
I think here we finally see them get it right.

402
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.960
We finally see the performance and the character actually working

403
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:13.500
together.

404
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.740
Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing too, isn't it?

405
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:21.180
Because the other real moffety thing that's happening here is this

406
00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:24.119
examination of the doctor's character.

407
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:29.099
And I think it's perhaps the most important part of the episode.

408
00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.940
So we're in a situation where the doctor is disabled in some way

409
00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:36.539
and he's only able to do sort of comedy nonsense on the fringes of

410
00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:36.839
the story.

411
00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:38.519
Sort of being the Greek chorus.

412
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.200
It's an Arabic.

413
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:40.920
Yeah, yeah.

414
00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:43.859
But also just the sort of ridiculous stuff with him sort of

415
00:20:43.859 --> 00:20:46.980
sticking his hand out of the Tartis and sort of walking it along

416
00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:48.779
the railway tracks and stuff.

417
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.900
Like he's doing all sorts of nonsense at this point.

418
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:55.740
And so Clara has to step up and be the doctor.

419
00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.960
And it works within the context of the series because she has

420
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.299
started lying to Danny at this point, and he got her to promise

421
00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:07.619
that she wouldn't do that.

422
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:12.299
And so she's lying to the doctor as you said, Brendan, and lying

423
00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:13.380
to Danny at the moment.

424
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.039
So at the end of last week, she told the doctor that Danny was

425
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:21.240
fine with it and she didn't tell Danny that this was actually now

426
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:22.920
no longer her last trip.

427
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:28.319
And I think that this examination of the role of the doctor works

428
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:33.059
really well, like really, really well, because it doesn't just

429
00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:34.859
work for the Capoldi doctor.

430
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:39.420
It works for the doctor generally because the position that Clara

431
00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:44.099
is placed in is a group of people that are being attacked by

432
00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:46.259
monsters and picked off one by one.

433
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:51.359
And what does she have to say to them to be the doctor to get them

434
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:51.960
out of it?

435
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.279
This is the best part of the story for me, I think, and why I

436
00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:58.019
think it's probably the best in series 8.

437
00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.079
The absence of the doctor, which we've seen another doctor light

438
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:01.500
episode.

439
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:04.740
But here it sort of works in another way, in a way, similar to

440
00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:07.200
perhaps to human nature family of blood, where the absence of the

441
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.259
doctor actually reveals what the doctor's impact is.

442
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.539
And here it's not a good one.

443
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:14.880
And this is the story of series 8 for me.

444
00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:17.460
We have a Doctor Who intentionally in terms of the production team

445
00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:21.299
is more abrasive and has been given that line, am I a good man?

446
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.980
And that, to me, is really dramatically feasible and valid and

447
00:22:25.980 --> 00:22:28.500
interesting and it's a great direction to take the show in.

448
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:32.880
And I think it sort of plays out here in the way that it brings

449
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:33.660
the doctor back.

450
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.259
And what I mean by that is it's almost like a magic trick.

451
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.220
I might get into this a bit later on, but the way that this works

452
00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:45.720
for me is that it sets up, through the absence of the doctor, a

453
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:49.799
real examination of what is his impact on Clara, who is becoming

454
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:55.200
increasingly dangerous in her actions and attitudes and self

455
00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:57.180
endangering in terms of what happens in series 9.

456
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.720
And the doctor sees this from a position of almost impotence.

457
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:01.559
He can only watch on.

458
00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:05.279
And he realises goodness has nothing to do with it.

459
00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:09.240
And at that moment, I think we start to see the Capaldi doctor

460
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:13.440
come back to be the doctor, our doctor, and he's realised.

461
00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:17.099
Actually, my actions, in terms of how they're being mimicked here

462
00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:22.140
almost by Clara, have been not the actions of a good man, and he

463
00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:23.759
starts to change from this point.

464
00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:26.880
And that's to me like the great thing about Flatline.

465
00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:29.339
We get our doctor back.

466
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:31.319
That's so wonderful.

467
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:36.720
It sort of culminates in that scene in dark water where Clara is

468
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.920
behaving in a very what she would classify as assertive doctor way

469
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.980
when she's disposing of the keys to force him to do something and

470
00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:47.160
the doctor is just endlessly kind with her after that.

471
00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:49.259
And so it's actually it brings in full circle.

472
00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:51.539
It's really interesting as well because one of the things that

473
00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:55.500
Clara does to become the doctor in this episode is that she lies.

474
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:57.599
Rule number one is the doctor lies.

475
00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.039
Rule number 2 is moffat lies.

476
00:23:59.099 --> 00:23:59.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

477
00:23:59.819 --> 00:24:01.259
I always forgot to lies.

478
00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:05.579
And they keep coming back to that in this episode where she says

479
00:24:05.579 --> 00:24:08.460
I'm the doctor and the doctor says to her, oh, lies.

480
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.180
They just keep referring to it.

481
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:15.660
And it builds on the end of last week.

482
00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:18.119
And, you know, also the end of Kill the Moon.

483
00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:22.019
In Kill the Moon, the doctor doesn't tell Clara the full truth

484
00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:24.960
which leads to the rupture in their relationship.

485
00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:27.420
At the end of Mummy on the Orange Express.

486
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.420
He gives her the unvarnished truth and says that he had to make a

487
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:32.519
terrible choice and he didn't know if it would work.

488
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:37.680
And that's his responsibility is to make that kind of choice.

489
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:39.359
So other people don't have to.

490
00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:43.980
And watching these episodes back to back again, I kind of went, oh

491
00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:45.660
when he's saying goodness has nothing to do with it.

492
00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:47.400
He's like, I'm not doing this to be good.

493
00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.279
You know, this is not good.

494
00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:50.880
This is not good.

495
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:55.200
This is just necessary and you're enjoying this and to me, that's

496
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.960
his problem with what she did today.

497
00:24:58.019 --> 00:24:59.220
She's like, tell me I was good.

498
00:24:59.279 --> 00:24:59.880
Tell me I was good.

499
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:01.559
And he's like, people died.

500
00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:02.579
You know?

501
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.400
Yeah, it's great that we save the planet, but it's not something

502
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:07.680
to be happy about your performance review.

503
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:08.579
Yeah.

504
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:12.299
But I mean, she asked him last week, do you love it?

505
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.660
You know, do you love being the person who makes that decision?

506
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.059
And there is a way in which, of course, he does.

507
00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.299
And I don't think this is particularly a critique of the 12th

508
00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:24.480
doctor because it's what David Tennant's doing in voyage of the

509
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:28.380
damned or what Tom is doing in horror of fang rock.

510
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:29.039
You in a situation.

511
00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:32.880
Yeah, yeah, you're in a situation where there's a group of people

512
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.279
being picked off one by one by the monster.

513
00:25:35.339 --> 00:25:36.180
What do you do?

514
00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:39.900
You tell them that there's hope?

515
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.140
Why?

516
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.319
Well, not because there's hope because they're likely to run

517
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:45.660
faster if they think they're home, right?

518
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:47.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

519
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:50.579
You know, you make sure that you're the leader.

520
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:53.880
You have to do something now to stand up to the biggest person

521
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:55.259
there.

522
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:56.400
Fenton, is that his name?

523
00:25:56.460 --> 00:25:59.940
Horrible Fenton in this case. so that you're the one who's

524
00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:01.920
listened to and you're the one who's believed.

525
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:05.279
And these are things that the doctor does.

526
00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:12.240
And now we're being invited to regard them as moral problems.

527
00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:14.460
And I think that's really interesting.

528
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:15.480
Oh, completely.

529
00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:18.539
And this is also why I think Moffat sort of goes back to a world

530
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:22.799
that he's drunk from from before, which is actually in Moffat's

531
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:27.720
1st series of Sherlock, and he has Lestrade, say that line about

532
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.720
Sherlock, something along the lines of, he's a great man, and one

533
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.420
day, if we're really, really lucky, he might be a good one.

534
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.539
That's that sort of moral dilemma that Moffatt likes to really

535
00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:39.119
explore through his characters, which works so well here, I think

536
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:39.779
in Flatline.

537
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:43.200
Well, I think it's the thing that Moffat frequently does is he

538
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.319
takes something that we're used to in the show and then puts it

539
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:49.319
under the microscope. like invites us to look at it in a

540
00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:50.279
completely new way.

541
00:26:50.339 --> 00:26:55.799
So, I mean, in a way, like lying is bad, blah, blah, blah, you

542
00:26:55.799 --> 00:27:01.079
know, wow, that sounded terrible.

543
00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:03.660
So, you know, lying is bad or whatever.

544
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:07.380
But I mean, lying to those people so that they're more likely to

545
00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:12.240
survive seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

546
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.259
I think it's something that the doctor does a lot.

547
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:21.000
And there's that sort of argument around the utilitarian sort of

548
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.059
principle, which, again, comes to the fore here, is this the right

549
00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:27.180
thing to do in terms of the end result, the end justifying the

550
00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:28.799
means, and it does in that regard.

551
00:27:28.859 --> 00:27:32.039
But through that, that's where the questioning of the characters

552
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:33.299
goodness comes from.

553
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:37.440
Because the doctor then becomes a liar, like a habitual liar.

554
00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:42.000
And even though it might be justified on sort of consequentialist

555
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:46.799
ground, as far as what sort of person he is, is he a good person?

556
00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:51.420
Perhaps that means after seasons and seasons of behaving like this

557
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:53.339
that he isn't such a good person.

558
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:57.000
Well, that's why we've always had that Terence Dix via Paul

559
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.359
Cornell maxim of the doctor makes the villains fall into their own

560
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:04.140
traps, as if that kind of absolves him. blame.

561
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.059
But here, that is what Clara does.

562
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:07.200
She channels the doctor.

563
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.299
She thinks outside the box, you might say.

564
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.299
And she makes the villain fall into its own trap.

565
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:12.900
Yeah.

566
00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:13.559
Yeah.

567
00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:17.460
I mean, it's it's been a thing that we've been examining since

568
00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:18.960
deep breath, isn't it?

569
00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:25.319
where it's always a doctor's role to make sure that the villain is

570
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.299
sort of soundly dead by the end of it.

571
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:32.880
And we're not invited to see it in deep breath and we're only

572
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:35.099
invited to kind of infer what happened.

573
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:39.359
And then last week we get this very similar thing where the doctor

574
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:43.079
says, oh, I saved everyone and you were asleep and I didn't want

575
00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:46.079
to wake you and we don't get to see any of that either.

576
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:52.500
So here I think, as you, you hinted at Stephen, I think you get to

577
00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:57.240
see the doctor evaluating his own kind of normal techniques for

578
00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:02.039
dealing with something like this and having the doctor and Clara

579
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:07.559
just openly talk about what that role means is really, really

580
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:08.759
properly interesting.

581
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:12.900
And something that the show hasn't done yet, even though it's

582
00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:16.680
spent all of this year so far, looking at the doctor's character

583
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:18.779
and evaluating it in some way.

584
00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:23.160
I mean, other people have been the doctor before, haven't they?

585
00:29:23.220 --> 00:29:27.539
Maybe just Romana in Horns of Nimon because Tom is too busy being

586
00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:34.200
a massive brat. in that story to do any of his actual job.

587
00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:36.420
I mean, missy and world and often time.

588
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.099
Yeah, well that's coming as well.

589
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:41.279
And again, it is that thing where the doctor becomes a kind of

590
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.859
role rather than a particular person.

591
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:45.660
It's a way of behaving.

592
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.500
And there the doctor is also evaluating Missy's performance.

593
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:50.700
Yes, as the doctor.

594
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.279
She's really good.

595
00:29:53.339 --> 00:29:54.299
She's much better than him.

596
00:29:55.980 --> 00:30:00.059
And also, if we go back to something we compared this episode too

597
00:30:00.059 --> 00:30:03.779
earlier, in fear her, when the doctor disappears, Rose has to

598
00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:04.980
become more like the doctor.

599
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:09.779
And something I've always found interesting in that is Rose's 1st

600
00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:15.900
response is very rose like she gets angry with Chloe and, you know

601
00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:18.779
there's sort of this petulance and the doctor's not here, da, da

602
00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:19.380
da, da.

603
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:24.660
But then she realises no one else is going to do this and she uses

604
00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:26.940
what the doctors told her to reason it out.

605
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.900
And from the moment she grabs the pickaxe, she's the doctor for

606
00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:31.859
the rest of the episode.

607
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:35.940
And then, again, in doomsday, where she's left alone in the TARDIS

608
00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:39.420
she grabs the psychic paper to try and infiltrate torchwood.

609
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:40.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

610
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:44.039
And it doesn't work the same way that Clara's psychic paper

611
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:47.759
doesn't work on Fenton because he has no imagination. lack of

612
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:48.180
imagination.

613
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:53.640
And you know, Jamie Matheson had fun with the psychic paper last

614
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:55.019
week as a mystery show.

615
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:55.920
That's your worst.

616
00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:56.460
Okay, right.

617
00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:05.819
Yeah, I mean, we've had the doctor as a mask, haven't we before?

618
00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:08.160
And that was sort of David Tennant.

619
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:11.880
It was definitely, you know, the doctor is an acting performance.

620
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:16.920
But here you have the doctor as a kind of, it is a job or a role

621
00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:19.680
or a particular strategy for dealing with people.

622
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:21.779
Or a promise.

623
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:22.380
Yeah, maybe.

624
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:23.099
Yeah, yeah.

625
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:23.640
Yeah, yeah.

626
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:24.240
Yeah.

627
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:28.200
And with the whole, the Dr. Lies thing, something I find so

628
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:32.700
interesting about that is you compare it to flesh and stone, where

629
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:36.839
men, River says to Amy, no, you're fine, no, and the doctor's like

630
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:38.519
she's dying and River has a go.

631
00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:41.460
Oh, well, if we tell her she's not, then she'll get better.

632
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.940
And it's like, so, you know, the doctor's criticised when he tells

633
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.579
the truth and he's criticised for lying as well.

634
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:52.140
And in both situations, he's telling the truth to Amy and lying to

635
00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:55.319
other people for the same reason to make them run faster and hope

636
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:55.740
more.

637
00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:56.940
Yeah, yeah.

638
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:01.680
Yeah, it's interesting that both actions are right and wrong in

639
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:02.160
different ways.

640
00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:06.059
And I think it's the exploration of that that just makes for good

641
00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:06.660
drama.

642
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.980
There is no definitive answer.

643
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:08.460
Okay.

644
00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:12.480
It's not like there is going to be a statement or a conclusion at

645
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.539
the end of which you will be able to say the doctor is X and only

646
00:32:15.539 --> 00:32:18.839
X. So that sort of continual interpretation through.

647
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:22.559
You know, really tricky moral dilemmas and, you know, wonderful

648
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.319
stories and dramatic moments is what makes Doctor Who so

649
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:25.500
wonderful.

650
00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:28.740
Don't you think this episode has a stab at it, though, when the

651
00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:31.980
doctor finally comes fully grown out of the TARDIS and has his

652
00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:34.619
incredibly doctor-ish moment?

653
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.680
Is it not kind of restatement of doctor-ish principles?

654
00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:39.599
No, this is absolutely what I agree with.

655
00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:44.400
And the issue for me is that it comes at the, is it the ninth

656
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:46.619
episode of the seals and there's 13.

657
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:49.319
We're about 2 thirds of the way, 3 quarters of the way through, and

658
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.140
it's only at this point that we start to see that doctor come back

659
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:55.859
again, which I think is probably a bit of a mistake in terms of

660
00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:58.980
the overall series, and perhaps what that does in terms of the

661
00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:02.700
doctor in the public imagination, not amongst the nerds, but

662
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:05.700
really the sort of watching public, and I wonder if there's a bit

663
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:08.880
of damage, particularly around the ratings, that doctor who

664
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.500
doesn't really sort of recover from after that.

665
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:11.940
It's the Colin Baker problem.

666
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:16.380
You know, I mean, I don't really believe that they had a mid-80s

667
00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:20.099
plan to make him nicer overhauls. that's what they marked it at.

668
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:24.000
I think here there was that plan, but I think, and it's actually

669
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:28.680
really great that you have the buildup to this payoff, but it does

670
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:29.579
come a bit too late.

671
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:30.839
I think you're right.

672
00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:32.940
I think I think it does come a bit late.

673
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:37.079
The issue with it, though, is that it's just so good as a way of

674
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:40.380
bringing that character back and bringing that moral centre of the

675
00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:41.039
character back.

676
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:43.859
Would you indulge me for a little bit as a story?

677
00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:47.579
Perhaps try and persuade all of you that this is actually a story

678
00:33:47.579 --> 00:33:48.720
built around a magic trick.

679
00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:49.380
Okay.

680
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:53.400
And the magic trick that I'm thinking of sort of borrows from the

681
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:57.720
prestige, which talks about a 3 act structure to a magic trick

682
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:01.500
which mirrors very nicely and closely the 3 act structure of a

683
00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:05.700
Doctor Who story, but also I think the series as a whole, series 8

684
00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:06.180
as a whole.

685
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.500
And the 1st part of a magic trick is the pledge, and I'm going to

686
00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:15.000
try invoke my best Michael Kane here, where the voiceover on that

687
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.159
on that wonderful film, if you haven't seen it do so.

688
00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:19.440
He says, the pledge is the 1st part.

689
00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:21.599
So the magician shows you something ordinary.

690
00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:25.980
Perhaps he asks you to inspect it and to see if it is indeed real

691
00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:26.639
unaltered, normal.

692
00:34:26.699 --> 00:34:28.019
But of course it isn't.

693
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:31.679
And it's almost as though this is the way that any Doctor Who

694
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.519
story starts.

695
00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:35.639
There's an introduction to something wonderful, spooky happening

696
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.900
with the beauty-weedy bald man, and we have what Todd might call a

697
00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:42.300
TARDIS bitch scene, but actually good.

698
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:43.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

699
00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:47.219
At the beginning of that sort of promises japes and adventures.

700
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.239
And it's just that sort of, I guess, he's an ordinary Doctor Who

701
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:55.920
story, except it isn't, and the 2nd part of a magic trick is the

702
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:57.719
twist or the turn.

703
00:34:57.780 --> 00:34:59.760
And again, to invoke Michael Kane.

704
00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:02.159
The magician takes the ordinary and makes it do something

705
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:03.059
extraordinary.

706
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:06.119
Now you're looking for the secret, but you won't find it.

707
00:35:06.179 --> 00:35:07.380
You're not really looking.

708
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.840
You don't want to know, you want to be fooled.

709
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:14.280
And I think this sort of plays out in the way that, you know, we

710
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.920
obviously have a shrinking TARTIS, which is a wonderful visual

711
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:17.940
trick and gag.

712
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:21.840
But in removing the doctor from the narrative, we talked about

713
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:25.440
this before, Clara comes to the fore, she becomes the doctor, if

714
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.800
you like, and in a wonderful way, foreshadows, Missy being, can I

715
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:29.340
reveal this?

716
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.099
Is it is it a spoiler territory?

717
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:35.099
She's revealed to be the master at the end of this series.

718
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.460
And then obviously you sort of get the foreshadowing, I guess, of

719
00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:40.920
Pants Jody's doctor as well in the years to come.

720
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:44.340
But it also means, as I say before, the doctor is removed from

721
00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:47.940
that narrative, and he's able to watch on like a Greek chorus and

722
00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:52.079
comment and observe and understand, uh, that what he's actually

723
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:56.880
being, um, I guess role modelling to Clara actually isn't the

724
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:58.139
actions of a good man.

725
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:02.400
And this is, I guess, where the 3rd act of a magic trick comes in

726
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:03.300
which is the prestige.

727
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.039
And again, Michael Kane.

728
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:09.360
But you won't clap yet because making something disappear isn't

729
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:09.719
enough.

730
00:36:09.780 --> 00:36:11.340
You have to bring it back.

731
00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:15.960
That's why every magic creek has a 3rd act, the hardest part.

732
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:18.179
And I think this is what you were talking about before.

733
00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:22.199
Peter, when you said about the doctor being brought back.

734
00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:26.579
And I think this is the moment, I think in series 8 and why this

735
00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:30.119
story is, I think the pinnacle of that series for me.

736
00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:34.079
This is where we get the man in the red line magician's code to

737
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.260
bring us into the 3rd and last act of the series, which is the

738
00:36:37.260 --> 00:36:39.480
return of the doctor, the return of our doctor.

739
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:41.940
The doctor's not just the magician.

740
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.260
The doctor is the magic.

741
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:47.340
It's just wonderful, the way that the whole story just acts as a

742
00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:48.719
keystone to the entire series.

743
00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:50.820
I think it's absolutely beautiful and wonderful.

744
00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:53.460
That's really great.

745
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:58.440
Yeah, and also, at the end, the tartist becomes a magic box. comes

746
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.659
that little magic box when it's in siege mode.

747
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.219
Yeah, it does.

748
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:04.079
Also, I liked your Michael Kane.

749
00:37:04.139 --> 00:37:06.840
My Michael Kane is from that Jack the Ripper film where he goes

750
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:08.219
somebody must know something.

751
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:16.980
My Michael Kane is from the swarm and it's, um, the bees, general

752
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:18.300
they're getting more intelligent.

753
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.139
He'll do anything, won't he?

754
00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:25.679
Man whose agent doesn't know the meaning of the word no.

755
00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.679
Him and Malcolm McDowell.

756
00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:32.400
He was asked about that once and his response was, I've never had

757
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:33.000
a mortgage.

758
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:36.599
Brilliant.

759
00:37:45.659 --> 00:37:50.159
So I've said several times this season that one of the weird

760
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:54.599
things about it is that all of these episodes really seem to be

761
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.800
interrogating the doctor's heroism, and they all seem to be doing

762
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:01.019
it in vastly different ways.

763
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:04.380
And I've speculated that either that's a stroke of genius or a

764
00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:05.340
horrific mess.

765
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.460
And I think, actually, probably, it's a horrific mess.

766
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:13.320
And I think that this is the 1st one that successfully does it

767
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:17.579
because it invites the doctor to stand outside of himself and see

768
00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:22.139
himself in action and then he's able to evaluate what that looks

769
00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:22.619
like.

770
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:29.579
And it's his refusal to tell Clara that she did well because

771
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:32.219
that's actually a moral judgement.

772
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:36.059
Like, let's go from Michael Kane to Roger Moore.

773
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:40.860
You know how Roger prevents that lovely young lady in for your

774
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:42.599
eyes only from killing.

775
00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:47.699
He doesn't want her to take revenge for her parents' death because

776
00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:49.739
he knows what that will do to her.

777
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:54.300
And so he'll take responsibility for killing the bad guys in order

778
00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:56.400
to protect her morally.

779
00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:58.019
This is the same thing.

780
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:02.820
The doctor doesn't want Clara to be proud of having been a good

781
00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:06.960
doctor because being a good doctor is not being a good person.

782
00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:09.420
Yeah, not something to necessarily make you proud.

783
00:39:09.539 --> 00:39:10.199
Exactly.

784
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.880
And so he's reluctant to do it.

785
00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:15.300
Not because he's a bit of a bastard or whatever, which is what

786
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:18.300
Clara says, you know, he can't bring himself to give her a

787
00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:19.260
compliment or something.

788
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.500
It is genuinely because he doesn't think it's a compliment.

789
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:24.420
He thinks it's a pretty harsh critique.

790
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:26.460
Yeah.

791
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:31.500
And I think that him becoming more the doctor we know really

792
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:36.239
starts with Rigsy because at 1st he's really dismissive of Rigsy

793
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:37.019
winning off the screen.

794
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.079
But as soon as Rigsy comes to the same conclusion the doctor comes

795
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:43.260
to about it, being a locked room mystery and they're still in the

796
00:39:43.260 --> 00:39:45.420
room, the doctor's like, no, don't let him leave.

797
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:48.780
And actually, no, she's leaving.

798
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:50.880
Of course, knowledge is leaving.

799
00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:51.179
Yeah.

800
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:52.260
When you say that kind of thing.

801
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:53.699
That's what scares him off.

802
00:39:55.559 --> 00:40:00.659
And that beautiful moment at the end where he's just full of

803
00:40:00.659 --> 00:40:04.079
praise for Rigsy. like, you know, your last artwork saved the

804
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:04.260
world.

805
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:05.760
I can't wait to see what you do next.

806
00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:09.300
And there's no backhanded compliment or anything like that.

807
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:12.960
It is humble genuine praise.

808
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:17.280
And it totally feels within the character we already know.

809
00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:21.300
I mean, something similar happens, doesn't it, in Into the Dalek

810
00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:23.760
where he's super dismissive of Ross being killed.

811
00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:27.179
You know, he's the top layer if anyone wants to say a few words.

812
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:31.380
And then Gretchen gets killed afterwards and he's abashed and kind

813
00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:35.940
of humbled and properly recognises her sacrifice and acknowledges

814
00:40:35.940 --> 00:40:39.420
it, you know, in similar words, I think.

815
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:44.519
So the doctor has been learning, I think, throughout the season

816
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:49.739
but I do think that this is the most direct and effective lesson

817
00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:50.219
so far.

818
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:04.980
Rigsey and, in particular, Jovan Wade's performance is great

819
00:41:04.980 --> 00:41:06.719
untapped companion material.

820
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:07.440
Yeah.

821
00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:09.239
He's a real Linda with a Y.

822
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:10.980
He's charming as hell, isn't he?

823
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:11.579
Great.

824
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:12.659
I mean I hope he'll come back.

825
00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:16.679
Because you do have Clara as the doctor.

826
00:41:16.739 --> 00:41:17.519
She needs companion.

827
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:19.559
Yeah, yeah. able to fill that role.

828
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:20.099
Yep.

829
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:23.039
And their chemistry.

830
00:41:23.099 --> 00:41:27.900
Clara and Rigsey's chemistry is really, it's really sweet.

831
00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:32.219
For me, it evokes like the best of the Doctor and Rose

832
00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:32.820
relationship.

833
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:38.159
Like there is an immediate affection and rapport between them and

834
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:42.539
that whole business on the train with the airband.

835
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.900
Which was there from the very 1st draft.

836
00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:50.219
Like Rigsy's got to make this huge gesture and Clara's like, I've

837
00:41:50.219 --> 00:41:51.420
got a hairband.

838
00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:52.619
You know?

839
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:56.880
I'll just take my hairband and I will think of you every time I

840
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:57.659
look at it.

841
00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:05.340
I mean, I have to say, I don't think Clara's been this funny

842
00:42:05.340 --> 00:42:05.699
before.

843
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:10.019
And again, one of the attributes of being the doctor is that you

844
00:42:10.019 --> 00:42:10.800
have to be funny.

845
00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:11.460
Yeah, yeah.

846
00:42:11.460 --> 00:42:13.380
So being such a funny script.

847
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.079
It makes her funny and so she can be the doctor and it makes

848
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:19.559
Capaldi's doctor because he is commenting on the action funnier

849
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:20.519
than he's been so far.

850
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:23.340
So he is now assuming the mantle of the doctor more successfully

851
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:23.760
as well.

852
00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:26.880
Yeah, although I have to say that all of the horrible things about

853
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.239
Capaldi's character that everyone complains about, I think, they're

854
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:31.380
absolutely hilarious.

855
00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:35.940
And, you know, I think that that's one of the reasons why Moffatt

856
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:39.960
made him like that isn't just because he wanted a morally

857
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:42.360
problematic doctor because he had that in Matt Smith.

858
00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:46.559
He wanted a doctor whose normal affect was kind of unpleasant and

859
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:47.159
hilarious.

860
00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:50.880
And he wanted the doctor as himself with his companion.

861
00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:52.320
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

862
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:56.880
Eventually, eventually our 2nd doctor is just ourselves.

863
00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:01.440
I think you're going to have to do a mega cup this season of every

864
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:05.099
time someone says that the 12th doctor is just Stephen Moffat's

865
00:43:05.099 --> 00:43:06.239
self-insert character.

866
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:09.300
Fingers come up in every episode.

867
00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:14.039
Well, I mean, I've always said this, though, both of Russell

868
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:17.699
Stockters are Russell, you know, everything is superficially

869
00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:22.019
fantastic and brilliant, and then there's a real kind of dark

870
00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:24.119
cynicism at the heart of it.

871
00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:28.260
Moffatt's doctors are both bastards and they're the smartest

872
00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:32.880
person in the room, but they're kind of obnoxious and they're

873
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:36.000
liars and all sorts of things. to strongly.

874
00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:36.599
Yeah, yeah.

875
00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:38.340
So I think absolutely.

876
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:39.780
He's a self-insert.

877
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:44.280
But even more so, I think, now that he's Peter Capaldi and

878
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:45.300
Scottish and that age.

879
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:46.679
Yeah, yeah.

880
00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:48.900
And, yeah, in terms of chibnol.

881
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:50.579
Well, he just never touches up his roots.

882
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:08.760
It's interesting that you talk about chipmol, because it strikes

883
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:11.579
me that this is the kind of storytelling that the chipmolera

884
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:13.500
should have gone for.

885
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:14.699
Obviously, the aesthetic is right.

886
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.639
I mean, Sheffield and Bristol are. interchangeable at the best of

887
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:22.079
times, but you can absolutely see Yaz in the Clara role.

888
00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:25.019
It's kind of down to earth mystery.

889
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:28.380
Like, you know, a bit of a skew on modern life in the UK playing

890
00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:28.739
out.

891
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.139
And it's a mystery to me why we never really went there.

892
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:35.219
I mean, the closest arachnids, the arachnids in the UK is the

893
00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:36.539
closest thing I can think of.

894
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:39.840
And when compared to this, it's a very straightforward, it's not a

895
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:40.320
mystery.

896
00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:41.340
It's just straightforward story.

897
00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:48.119
I think the problem is that I don't think that Chibnal is

898
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:50.940
comfortable problematizing a female doctor.

899
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:59.579
And think about the reaction that everyone has to the roof doctor

900
00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:04.019
who is a bit brusque and imperious, and everyone really liked

901
00:45:04.019 --> 00:45:04.619
her.

902
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:07.860
And she was playing on easy mode because she only turned up a few

903
00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:10.380
times and just sort of had to come and sort of be fabulous.

904
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:11.820
Yeah, yeah.

905
00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:15.000
But I don't think he wants to make the doctor a problem.

906
00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:17.699
And that's, I think that's the reason that one of my favourite

907
00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:23.699
lines in her era is when she says, actually, it turns out it's not

908
00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:26.400
that flat a team structure after all.

909
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:27.239
I think that's good.

910
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:30.840
That's her showing a bit of steel showing her teeth, but generally

911
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:32.280
he's reluctant to do that.

912
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:37.980
And I think that there is a group of fans, there's a big sector of

913
00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:42.780
fandom that doesn't want the doctor to be central to the show, that

914
00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:46.800
doesn't want the show to be about the character of Doctor Who as

915
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.920
much as it is about the adventures that the doctor goes on.

916
00:45:49.980 --> 00:45:53.519
And I think that Chibnal is one of those.

917
00:45:53.579 --> 00:45:58.260
And I think that that's the big reason for me, why I think his era

918
00:45:58.260 --> 00:46:04.619
doesn't work, is that he's reluctant to send to the doctor, and I

919
00:46:04.619 --> 00:46:08.280
think that it turns out that centring the doctor and interrogating

920
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:12.960
the doctor is really interesting and making the doctor a character

921
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:18.119
who is sometimes a problem in a way that he's always been, right?

922
00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:21.119
Right from Trouton, right from Hartnall.

923
00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:22.019
I know toly child.

924
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:25.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that the doctor is potentially a problem.

925
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:29.280
And I think he's been reluctant to do that to the 1st female

926
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:30.000
doctor.

927
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.559
Or possibly it's just how Chibmill doesn't want because, I mean

928
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:38.039
Peter Davison's doctor, who I think is Chibnall's doctor in a sort

929
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:41.820
of real way, isn't examined in the same way either.

930
00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:43.260
I don't know.

931
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.539
I think it's a confidence thing.

932
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:50.159
I think Moffat is at an all-time high in his confidence when he's

933
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:53.159
making the show now, and you have to be confident to kind of

934
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:55.559
interrogate the show and the doctor like this.

935
00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:56.219
Yeah.

936
00:46:56.219 --> 00:46:59.579
And you have to be confident to embrace the essential silliness.

937
00:46:59.579 --> 00:47:03.960
Of the concept in this, of the tiny TARDIS and the doctor moving

938
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:06.300
around like thing in the Adams family.

939
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:10.139
Um, And I don't think Chipmill had that confidence.

940
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:13.139
I also think you have to be confident to have a fairly

941
00:47:13.139 --> 00:47:17.880
unreconstructed, nasty character like Fenton and let them walk

942
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:18.420
away at the end.

943
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:20.099
If it was a Chipnell story.

944
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:23.460
You'd have big arrows pointing to him saying, this is a racist or

945
00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:26.579
whatever, like Rose Park's pal in Rosa.

946
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:27.960
Prasco.

947
00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:30.420
I'd forgotten his name.

948
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:33.239
Yeah, and so I think it's a confidence thing.

949
00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:36.659
Moffat has the confidence and Jane Matson as a newcomer has the

950
00:47:36.659 --> 00:47:37.500
confidence to go with that.

951
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:39.840
Something about that, though.

952
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:44.219
And I absolutely agree that this season really plays that element

953
00:47:44.219 --> 00:47:44.940
very well.

954
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:50.820
But looking at the Whitaker era, the times where the character is

955
00:47:50.820 --> 00:47:53.940
deliberately, morally ambiguous.

956
00:47:54.059 --> 00:47:58.079
Other times the character was massively criticised by the fan

957
00:47:58.079 --> 00:47:58.619
base.

958
00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.860
And I'm thinking the end of it takes you away.

959
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.760
There's a very vocal section of the fan base who don't see Hannah

960
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:08.579
and Eric remaining a family as a happy ending.

961
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:10.260
They think Eric is irredeemable.

962
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:14.159
There's SpyFall, which Chipnall and Whittaker have been

963
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:16.619
interviewed about. is like, yes, what the doctor does to the

964
00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:21.480
master is a problem, you know, but it's defeating the master and

965
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:23.639
in that situation, the end's justify the means.

966
00:48:23.699 --> 00:48:25.199
The end of can you hear me?

967
00:48:25.260 --> 00:48:27.480
The end of, can you hear me?

968
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:30.420
With the doctor not knowing how to emotionally respond to Graham

969
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:35.099
if that was Capaldi, it would be on YouTube, doctor highlight

970
00:48:35.099 --> 00:48:35.639
reels.

971
00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:38.699
But because it's Jody, it's not.

972
00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:43.559
But I do, I do think that Tribnol shies away from characters

973
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.619
criticising the doctor, which is a, which is a problem, because

974
00:48:46.619 --> 00:48:51.059
Clara criticises the doctor several times this series, but now is

975
00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:53.219
kind of going, oh, now that I've walked a mile in your shoes.

976
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:54.119
Actually this is addictive.

977
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:55.559
Yeah, yeah.

978
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:58.019
That's a really good line too, isn't it?

979
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:00.719
You don't discover that something's addictive until you try and

980
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:01.380
give it arm.

981
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:05.039
And the doctors never try to give it up so he can't say that he's

982
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:09.539
addicted to it, but Clara is clearly addicted to it and has tried

983
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:14.639
to give it up last week. and was completely unable to do it.

984
00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:18.420
Doctor Who reacts to what's come before.

985
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:19.440
Yeah.

986
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:22.199
And I can't help but feel with Chibnall that it was a reaction

987
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:26.639
against the centring of the doctor and the problematizing of him

988
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.820
and the examination of him, which I think probably goes all the

989
00:49:29.820 --> 00:49:32.219
way back to Rose, I think.

990
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:36.179
I think it's really interesting that we talk about Chipnol

991
00:49:36.179 --> 00:49:38.699
reacting against what went before because of course Moffat always

992
00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:40.380
acts against what went before.

993
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:44.460
And so it's only logical that after all the hype of the 50th

994
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:47.760
anniversary and all the focus on Doctor Who and what a beloved

995
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.599
institution and character it was, his next logical step was to go

996
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:53.219
okay, let's interrogate that character a little bit.

997
00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:56.159
Let's see what makes him take and whether he really is a good man

998
00:49:56.159 --> 00:50:00.059
and let's, in the early part of the season, maybe say he's not a

999
00:50:00.059 --> 00:50:00.480
good man.

1000
00:50:00.539 --> 00:50:03.539
And like I say, with all the problems of it takes too long to get

1001
00:50:03.539 --> 00:50:04.019
there and everything.

1002
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:06.960
It was a very interesting tack for next time.

1003
00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:07.800
Absolutely.

1004
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:08.039
Yeah.

1005
00:50:08.099 --> 00:50:11.460
I just think if it takes 2 or 3 episodes to do that, then great

1006
00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:14.579
and then move on, but I feel that when you're sort of dragging it

1007
00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:17.639
out to those lengths and really alienating people, particularly

1008
00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:22.199
people who, as, you know, non-hardcore fans are watching it for

1009
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.559
you know, Spikyhead, David Tennant and Floppyhead, Matt Smith and

1010
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:29.099
how wonderful and cute and lovely they are, although we've seen in

1011
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:32.940
their performances, that's probably not the case, then you will

1012
00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:34.320
risk losing them.

1013
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:37.199
And I think that's ultimately what we got towards the end of the

1014
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:38.099
season with the ratings.

1015
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:42.780
I actually have to say too, that this examination of the character

1016
00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:45.900
although it lands very, very well in this episode.

1017
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:51.000
I think ultimately it doesn't end up going anywhere.

1018
00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:53.460
There's a lot of things going.

1019
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:54.900
We've talked about some of them already.

1020
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:59.340
We'll talk about some of them in our last few episodes on this

1021
00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:03.840
season, but I just can't see that what happens in death in heaven

1022
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:08.219
really properly solves or rounds this out in any kind of way.

1023
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.719
And we're still making the same criticisms of the doctor in that

1024
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:13.619
final episode.

1025
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.500
I'm really not sure that it properly lands.

1026
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:20.940
And then there is this very, very strange ending and will

1027
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:24.900
obviously get there, but there's too much unfinished business and

1028
00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:26.280
there's no real.

1029
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:28.800
There's no real conclusion.

1030
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:31.500
There's been a whole heap of examination, a whole heap of question

1031
00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:35.099
raising, but I'm not sure that it really goes anywhere.

1032
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.679
I mean, the central problem is that the doctor is a hero.

1033
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:40.380
Yeah, we can talk around it as much as we want, but at the end of

1034
00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:41.639
the day, that's what he's going to be.

1035
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:42.960
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

1036
00:51:43.019 --> 00:51:46.019
And that, again, that comes through in the way that you have that

1037
00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:47.280
wonderful resolution.

1038
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:49.079
You know, you're the monsters.

1039
00:51:49.139 --> 00:51:51.059
That is the role that you seem determined to play.

1040
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:54.420
So I must play mine, the man who stops the monsters.

1041
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:55.739
He's always going to be that.

1042
00:52:21.059 --> 00:52:24.360
Well, then, listen, that's all we have time for this week.

1043
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:28.500
We'll be back next week to get lost in the woods in the Forest of

1044
00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:28.980
the Night.

1045
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:33.000
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1046
00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:36.719
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1047
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:39.840
com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter

1048
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:44.280
and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger

1049
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:48.300
Jody Intertera, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek project.

1050
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:52.800
Until next time, remember what Hyacinth UK always says?

1051
00:52:52.860 --> 00:52:54.480
Don't touch the walls.

1052
00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:56.820
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1053
00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:57.840
Good night.

1054
00:52:57.900 --> 00:52:58.679
Good night.

1055
00:52:58.739 --> 00:52:59.820
See you.

1056
00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:07.260
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Stephen B, Nathan

1057
00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:09.239
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Peter Griffiths.

1058
00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:11.400
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lann.

1059
00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:15.480
This episode, the Prestige, was recorded on the 30th of April 2023

1060
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:17.159
and released on the 11th of June.

1061
00:53:26.219 --> 00:53:30.599
If your immediate response to Flatline on broadcast was to claim

1062
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:34.139
that the plot was a bit thin or that it left you feeling flat

1063
00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:37.500
please report immediately to your designated processing centre

1064
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:42.599
think that's it.

1065
00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:43.320
What do you think?

1066
00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:44.159
Great.

1067
00:53:44.219 --> 00:53:45.719
Yeah, fantastic.

1068
00:53:45.780 --> 00:53:46.559
Okay, cool.

1069
00:53:46.619 --> 00:53:47.639
Now, how long do we have?

1070
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:49.800
An hour.

1071
00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:51.960
I think an hour before the next one.

1072
00:53:52.019 --> 00:53:52.619
Okay.

1073
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:54.659
That's enough time for me to do a Wii, isn't it?

1074
00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:56.340
Well I don't know.

1075
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:57.360
How much?

1076
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:59.820
Enough time for you to do two. 2 or three.

1077
00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:01.139
I can go crazy.

1078
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:06.119
I wouldn't have to nip out, which is a thing that's featured on

1079
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:08.099
the...

1080
00:54:08.099 --> 00:54:10.139
So that's the complete history volume.

1081
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:12.539
And I will just read you something that was cut from the script at

1082
00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:15.059
a very early stage when there were a lot more graffiti artists

1083
00:54:15.059 --> 00:54:17.699
because it was going to be revealed that one of the graffiti

1084
00:54:17.699 --> 00:54:22.139
artists came back to this spot every year to tell the homeless

1085
00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:24.420
living around here to look out for the boneless, basically.

1086
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:31.260
And so the story was going to end with this dialogue. hold on.

1087
00:54:31.380 --> 00:54:35.159
But we're the sliding boneless hiding on your wall.

1088
00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:38.519
They'll crack your back upon the rack, make you 9 feet tall.

1089
00:54:38.579 --> 00:54:42.179
But wear the sneaky boneless slide under any door.

1090
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:45.539
They'll make you thin, they'll take your skin, you won't be you no

1091
00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:45.780
more.

1092
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.719
No, you won't be you no more.

1093
00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:51.599
And then there was going to be the sound of the boneless behind

1094
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:51.840
them.

1095
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:53.639
Not wild.

1096
00:54:53.699 --> 00:54:55.619
They made me thin, I'll take this.

1097
00:54:55.679 --> 00:55:00.300
Yeah, that's right All right, I'm going to stop recording.

1098
00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:04.800
Likewise, I'm gonna I'm gonna go have some fud.

1099
00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:06.420
I might have some food as well.