WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:38:50 1 00:00:40.500 --> 00:00:50.219 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that was expecting to talk about Kiefer Sutherland and Near Death experiences this week. 2 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:51.780 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:53.100 I'm Peter. 4 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:54.299 I'm Brendan. 5 00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:55.320 And I'm Stephen. 6 00:00:55.380 --> 00:01:05.340 Well, since the doctor 1st compared time travel to television back in 1963, we've been eagerly following his two-dimensional adventures. 7 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:09.599 But what happens when a 3rd dimension comes along or a 4th or a 5th? 8 00:01:09.659 --> 00:01:13.019 Let's find out as we discuss flat blind. 9 00:01:31.140 --> 00:01:36.840 When was the last time that we had two great debut episodes in a row from a new writer? 10 00:01:36.900 --> 00:01:38.939 I'm thinking 1977. 11 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:39.719 Really? 12 00:01:39.780 --> 00:01:41.400 Yeah, Chris Boucher? 13 00:01:41.459 --> 00:01:45.180 So not Hyde and Rings of Ackerton then. 14 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:47.400 Not quite, although one of them's pretty good. 15 00:01:47.459 --> 00:01:48.299 Yeah, that's true. 16 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:48.840 That's true. 17 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:56.519 So this is the script that Matheson originally submitted or one of a number of scripts that he submitted, I think. 18 00:01:56.579 --> 00:02:00.900 Yeah, this episode nine, but I think Mummy on the Orient Express was his follow-up. 19 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:01.680 Yeah. 20 00:02:01.739 --> 00:02:02.219 Yeah. 21 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:04.620 So this is extremely strong, isn't it? 22 00:02:04.739 --> 00:02:12.000 Like, I just think that we're at a point in the season now where we've been getting some pretty strong outings. 23 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:13.740 Oh, absolutely agree. 24 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.740 And for me, actually, this is the best script of series 8. 25 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:17.340 Okay. 26 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:17.759 Yep. 27 00:02:17.819 --> 00:02:18.719 I'll go into that later. 28 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:23.159 I think it's the most moffety of all the new Moffat writers. 29 00:02:23.219 --> 00:02:31.680 I think Jamie Matheson channels him the best, even so far as having, as we'll talk about, a big high concept monster that hasn't been done before. 30 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:34.860 Yeah, it really is fantastic. 31 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:41.639 And um, Jamie Matheson had uh, submitted ideas to Julie and Russell way back in 2004. 32 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:42.659 Wow. 33 00:02:42.659 --> 00:02:57.599 But they're like, oh, the slates will come back next year and then he went off and wrote a film called frequently asked questions about time travel, which is a rather excellent time loop time paradox comedy film with Dean Lennox Kelly set entirely in a pub. 34 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.159 I have a low rent sequel by Christopher H. 35 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:02.759 Bidmead. 36 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:11.520 And then, of course, you know, being human comes along and yeah, Jamie doesn't get a chance to pitch Doctor Who again until 2010. 37 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.020 I'm trying to work out exactly what's good about this. 38 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:22.139 I guess it is literally what you said, Peter, that this is nothing that's ever been done before. 39 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:33.960 And we have had the Tata shrink before, haven't we, in Legopolis and Planet of Giants and things, but we've never had just the outside shrinking, which is absolutely a stroke of genius. 40 00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:40.379 And it is, in fact, the cutest shrunken Tartar, since Orum plucked it from the insides of the... 41 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:41.280 I mean he's... 42 00:03:43.860 --> 00:03:49.259 So that's brilliant, but it also has a really properly terrifying monster. 43 00:03:49.560 --> 00:04:13.979 Yeah, so we have the boneless, and Jamie Matheson's, they're basically, um, as they were in Jamie Matheson's initial concept, his main thing was that they would sort of absorb your body a bit at a time, which we kind of see in this, and then kill you by snapping your neck, which Stephen Boppett and Brian mentioned, said, ah, maybe we can tone that down. 44 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:20.519 But Jamie was very insistent that we need to have the sound of bones breaking to tell the audience that these people are dead. 45 00:04:20.579 --> 00:04:23.100 So I respect that. 46 00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:27.779 Well, but it's also the sort of being flattened thing. 47 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:35.339 Like, I think that they're proper Doctor Who monsters in that, they kill you in a sort of alarming and strange way. 48 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:36.959 A unique way. 49 00:04:37.019 --> 00:04:40.019 And I think that that's something a new series has always done, isn't it? 50 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:55.740 Like, you know, the way the zygons kill you by turning you into a tumbleweed or the secret acts kill you and you're a sort of smouldering pile of bones or whatever, like a characteristic killing move is an important thing for a monster and this absolutely has it. 51 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:59.699 But it also just relies on what we're now able to do as well. 52 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:07.500 You could never have had the boneless, even during the RTD era, because the technology wasn't there to kind of make it happen, I think. 53 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:16.439 And it's kind of like, it's a nice synthesis of the CG and the soundscape, so that the noise that they make is really great. 54 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:21.779 And also the fact that a lot of the effects are actually done pretty practically. 55 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:24.060 So while we do see the boneless. 56 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:27.300 I can't say the boneless, it reminds me of something you'd eat from a KFC bucket. 57 00:05:29.100 --> 00:05:34.199 You do see the boneless and they look great, but often they're just suggested. 58 00:05:34.259 --> 00:05:44.519 So you have all those lovely shots down the end of the subway tunnel with just the lights at the end and they're kind of like movements and shadows and it's a really effective realisation as a whole. 59 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:51.300 I think that's the best part of it for me as a monster, the fact that they're sort of in the liminal spaces, in the shadows. 60 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:55.980 It's the way that Stephen Moffatt loves to present his, you know, aliens and monsters. 61 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:01.800 They sort of skulk in the shadows and they're perhaps not everyday things, but, you know, they sort of live in the walls. 62 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:02.939 And I think that's wonderful. 63 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:11.639 I think that kind of juxtaposition, I guess, of something that's really mundane, but also incredibly spooky, is what had so much atmosphere to the story. 64 00:06:11.699 --> 00:06:29.339 Yeah, I mean, I think once we're down in the tunnels and stuff, we're in a place that's a little bit less recognisable, but in the houses, on the estate, and particularly, the house that the young constable is killed in... 65 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:31.199 Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's fantastic. 66 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:36.120 But with its sort of horrible wallpaper and all of that sort of thing. 67 00:06:36.180 --> 00:06:38.879 You know, like it's got night terror sort of vibes. 68 00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:41.220 It's a horrible overdecorated flat. 69 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:46.319 And then just to have that, like a very ordinary place, that's the place where they get you. 70 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:49.379 Yeah, like I think that that's extremely good. 71 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:55.920 Um, and they're just sort of proper solid, brilliant conceptual Doctor Who monsters. 72 00:06:55.980 --> 00:07:09.240 So much so that we don't even, you know, this is the 2nd episode in a robot, Matheson, with a monster that doesn't speak that we talk to and it will respond, but it doesn't ever respond in words. 73 00:07:09.300 --> 00:07:12.540 So it's a weird, unknowable monster. 74 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:20.040 And in fact, it's so strange that the TARDIS translation circuits can't translate for us. 75 00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:22.199 It's completely incomprehensible to us. 76 00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:25.740 And he'll repeat that trick again in oxygen in series 10. 77 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.620 Oh, yeah, which is another brilliant episode. 78 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:30.360 It's really great monsters an episode. 79 00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:34.439 But also, like all good monsters, they give rise to really great set pieces. 80 00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:39.000 And so that bit where PC Forest is kind of like flattened into the ground. 81 00:07:39.060 --> 00:07:42.480 It's really quite shocking and like quite scary for a kid, I think. 82 00:07:42.540 --> 00:07:53.220 But then that brilliant set piece where Clara and Rigsy have to escape and they do so by hopping onto that kind of suspended chair from the ceiling and rolling out the window and get away from it. 83 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.579 And it all comes organically from the idea. that's what makes it really great. 84 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.560 Yeah, yeah, it's really good, that, is it? 85 00:07:58.620 --> 00:08:08.579 And it's fantastic locating the conversation between her and Danny on the phone at that point in the episode while they're doing that set piece. 86 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:10.439 It's terrific staff. 87 00:08:10.500 --> 00:08:13.620 This so much feels like an episode that Mothat wrote. 88 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:15.420 It feels like it's all of that standard. 89 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:16.319 Yeah, I agree. 90 00:08:16.379 --> 00:08:23.040 And I think it's in those sort of set pieces, including the egg chair that's suspended from the ceiling there. 91 00:08:23.100 --> 00:08:25.560 That's something straight out of a moth of sex comedy scene. 92 00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:26.519 I'm sure certain. 93 00:08:26.699 --> 00:08:34.919 I can't help but wonder. hasn't got his fingerprints on this script or is this actually Matheson who's come up with it because it's so moffety. 94 00:08:34.980 --> 00:08:37.259 Are you saying has he got his fingerprints on the script or on the egg chair? 95 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:40.980 Well, it is very more fatty. 96 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:42.720 I mean, I don't know. 97 00:08:42.779 --> 00:08:51.120 I mean, mommy on the Orient Express must have been handed to Jamie Matheson as a broad idea, but this feels new and fresh as well. 98 00:08:51.179 --> 00:08:52.320 And so I just don't know. 99 00:08:52.799 --> 00:09:11.460 Yeah, um, this was one of 4 ideas he brought to the production team for the 2014 season because when he pitched in 2010, um, there's not much known about the idea, but Stephen Moffat basically said, you know, this is tense, it has pace, it has character, it doesn't have a villain or a monster. 100 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:12.419 Right. 101 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:17.639 And and so Matheson kind of went away going, okay, I need to have a villain or a monster. 102 00:09:17.700 --> 00:09:28.379 Matheson, before becoming a TV writer, was a stand-up comedian and good friends with, at the time, a lesser known comedian, but now far better known comedian, Toby Haydoke. 103 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:29.159 Ah, okay. 104 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:34.799 And so Matheson sat down with Toby and said, I have these ideas. 105 00:09:34.860 --> 00:09:40.860 So he brings 4 ideas to the production and basically said to Toby, have these been done in Doctor Who before? 106 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:43.740 So that's how we get something so unique? 107 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:52.200 Right, thanks to Toby Hader, probably going, well, the Tardis was shrunk in Planet of Giants, Legopolis, and Carnival of Monsters. 108 00:09:52.259 --> 00:09:56.879 However, not quite the way you've done it, but avoid using fish islands because we had that in Lagopolis. 109 00:09:56.940 --> 00:09:57.480 No, don't go. 110 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:01.259 Don't do idea number two. 111 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:02.639 That was the monster of peladon. 112 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:21.360 Well, that makes a lot of sense, and, Brennan, because I think you do get these set pieces like the egg chair. 113 00:10:21.419 --> 00:10:29.159 You know, and sort of flashes of the doctor doing goofy things like dancing in the Tartars, and you get the horrible pie joke which sort of channels the 5 doctors. 114 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.320 And Matheson was a stand-up comic beforehand. 115 00:10:37.379 --> 00:10:40.379 Maybe it is actually all him because it's comedic gold, all of it. 116 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:42.480 Maybe that's why it feels like he's channelling off that. 117 00:10:42.539 --> 00:10:45.360 Yeah, well, Muppet's a sitcom writer as well. 118 00:10:45.419 --> 00:10:58.379 And, I mean, this does have the sort of Moffat monster, like the Vashtarada or the silence, you know, where their high concept and they basically kill you and you don't really know why. 119 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:00.539 Like they don't talk to you about it. 120 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.159 And they can be here, right? 121 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:03.120 In the room. 122 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:04.559 And in this case, in the walls. 123 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:06.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 124 00:11:06.059 --> 00:11:10.080 Yeah, so it is a moffity kind of monster. not some guy in a rubber suit. 125 00:11:10.139 --> 00:11:12.360 It's not a draconian or a zigon or something. 126 00:11:12.419 --> 00:11:16.139 It is that sort of weird conceptual monster. 127 00:11:16.259 --> 00:11:20.639 And I do like how fabulously evil they are. 128 00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:24.419 Like they seem to be just totally evil, even though we never hear them speak. 129 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:41.879 Yeah, you know, there's that moment where the doctor sort of theorises that perhaps they don't understand our 3D world and so that they don't realise that they're hurting us, but it is made completely clear to us that, yes, they do and they're fine with it. 130 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:44.159 But again, that feels so lofty. 131 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:45.539 It's like the angels laughing. 132 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:46.500 Yeah. 133 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:47.279 Time of Angels. 134 00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:49.379 You know, there's no getting away from how evil they are. 135 00:11:49.500 --> 00:11:51.299 Doctor, I'm five. 136 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:51.840 Fine. 137 00:11:51.899 --> 00:11:53.220 Fine, I'm fine. 138 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:53.940 Yeah. 139 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:55.379 Oh, countdown. 140 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:56.279 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 141 00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:59.039 From what I can see of the script development. 142 00:11:59.100 --> 00:12:14.759 It seems that Moffatt's main input was making it simpler because initially you had a group of street kids who were doing graffiti and then you had the community service group and then you had a group of passengers on the train as well. 143 00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:17.279 So Moffett's like, no, simplify, simplify, simplify. 144 00:12:17.340 --> 00:12:19.980 It wasn't a doctor light script to begin with. 145 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:23.879 So it was going to start with the doctor and Clara already in situ. 146 00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:26.940 It became the Dr. Light script because of scheduling. 147 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:31.320 So it seems like Moffatt's main influence here is just kind of saying to Jamie Matheson. 148 00:12:31.379 --> 00:12:33.179 It's like, you've written like a film. 149 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:35.159 We need to make it a TV show. 150 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:50.700 Yeah, and so we collapse the graffiti artist into just Rigsy and make him a member of the community service people and that he's there doing community service because he's been doing the graffiti. 151 00:12:50.759 --> 00:13:01.259 And I guess because there's that moment, when the community service people 1st see Clara and she is looking at a, what do we call it? 152 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:15.000 Like a memorial where people have put flowers and pictures and things because someone has gone missing and they assume that the people trapped in the walls are actually a memorial mural, which I think is so brilliant. 153 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:15.899 It's so good. 154 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:22.740 And just the response, you know, this really real seeming response, uh, when horrible what's his face. 155 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:23.879 Fenton. 156 00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:24.659 Fenton. 157 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:25.620 God, he's ugly. 158 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:27.059 He's fabulous, isn't he? 159 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.980 What a great character, actually. 160 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.919 He's done some big finishing stuff. 161 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:32.759 He's never not working. 162 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:35.340 Well, the further adventures of Fenton. 163 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:36.240 Yeah, no, no. 164 00:13:36.299 --> 00:13:38.340 Yeah, yeah. it's a box set. 165 00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:46.860 He is really good, but when he orders them painted over, you know, like there's a real kind of, because that's the thing too. 166 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:51.240 This is not our 1st council estate, is it? 167 00:13:51.299 --> 00:14:01.139 But this one is drawn very lightly, I think, but the one impression that you do get is that it's a community and these people who've gone missing myst. 168 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.179 It is a bit more broad stroke. 169 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:06.419 So the Fenton character sort of doesn't come from the power station. 170 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:06.779 No. 171 00:14:06.779 --> 00:14:10.500 But it's sort of very much in keeping with what's required of the script. 172 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:20.460 And I think that moment when the memento mori sort of characters turn around, it's absolutely chilling and it's beautifully realised as well. 173 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:21.899 Fantastic. 174 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.320 I mean, we've had living pictures before, haven't we? 175 00:14:25.379 --> 00:14:27.299 Well, let's not talk about that. 176 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:37.679 Well, I mean, I don't think for her it is as terrible as everyone suggests, and certainly it's its problem isn't that premise because the drawings coming to life or people being turned into drawings is actually great. 177 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:43.799 It's a, you know, obviously a sort of sapphire and steel thing, isn't it, with the photographs. 178 00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:47.220 Remember that four parter, with the people trapped in the photographs. 179 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:48.000 It's very like that. 180 00:14:48.059 --> 00:15:03.419 But here, because it's, it's the 2Dness of it, I think, you know, there's, there's that famous book, isn't there, flatland, which is by a, um, I think it's an American mathematician. 181 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:17.940 It's quite old, and it's a description of a 2D world by a character called A Square, and he describes what the experience of living in 2 dimensions is like. 182 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:30.240 So that's a thing that it's obviously kind of cribbing from, but also the fact that Doctor Who has always been two-dimensional because we watch it on a television screen. and its images. 183 00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:34.259 So 2 dimensions can represent 3 dimensions. 184 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.259 And so we can make things move between dimensions. 185 00:15:37.379 --> 00:15:41.399 And I think that's really brilliantly done in the cold open, isn't it? 186 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:42.480 Where what's his face? 187 00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:44.580 Is he Robbie or something? 188 00:15:44.580 --> 00:15:46.080 He's got a beardie, witty bald man. 189 00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:53.639 Yeah, we're the beardy guy. gets sort of smeared on the wall and we only see that it's him because the camera tilts. 190 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.220 It's so brilliantly done. 191 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.139 It is really well directed, isn't it? 192 00:15:58.200 --> 00:15:59.159 Douglas McKinnon. 193 00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:01.740 Yeah, Doug's Kenyon is hit and miss, but he is, yes. 194 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:02.460 All kids. 195 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:03.179 Yeah, yeah. 196 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.340 But I have a couple of notes on this. 197 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:16.019 I mean, if we are comparing it to fear her, and it did make me think of that, I wouldn't like to think which episode is actually more 2D. Well, they're both quite too, yeah. 198 00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:24.059 But also that, going back to the community service gang, heavy and the zeitkaist at this time was misfits. 199 00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:25.500 Ah, yes. 200 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:40.980 Even if you didn't watch the show from start to finish, the one image that you took away from it, the image that was kind of popularised in the advertising and everything was of the community service gang with the heroes, and they're really horrible overseer. 201 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:46.139 And so I think that was kind of like that image would have been strongly drawn on for this. 202 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:51.600 It went from sort of 2009 to 2013 and so, yeah, it was fresh. 203 00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:52.740 Yeah, yeah. 204 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:09.900 What do we think of this being set in Bristol? 205 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:19.619 Well, I guess Jamie did work on being human, which was set in Bristol until I became too expensive and they had to move to Barry Island. 206 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:20.700 Yeah okay. 207 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.440 Isn't this shot on Barry Island? 208 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:23.339 Yes. 209 00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:24.779 Yeah. 210 00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:26.819 I've been to Bristol. 211 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:28.500 Everything does seem a little bit smaller there. 212 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.019 Oh yeah, I mean, I know I kind of like that. 213 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:35.160 I think that's a thing. 214 00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:37.799 Everything doesn't have to be said in London or Sheffield or whatever. 215 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:39.180 Bristol's a pretty little town. 216 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:44.880 It just made me think, maybe this is where the doctor got the idea of going to work in a university for however many years it was. 217 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:46.859 Ah, yes, okay. 218 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:48.539 He wants to have liked it, yeah, partner. 219 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:50.700 Also the birthplace of Tom Spillsbury. 220 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:51.539 Ah. 221 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:52.380 Well, there you go. 222 00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:53.339 Is there a plaque? 223 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:11.460 I think it also continues the joke from the beginning of the season, which is, of course, Clara being dropped off in Glasgow and, you know, Clara is deceiving both Danny and the doctor and wanting to lead this double life. 224 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:18.299 And it's like, I can keep travelling with you so long as you get me back exactly where we left from at exactly the same time. 225 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:19.920 And he manages the time. 226 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:22.619 It's just Bristol. 227 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.460 Yeah, yeah. 228 00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:30.720 And it leads to, I think, my favourite line in the episode where the doctor's actually really thrilled that the TARDIS is half size and Clara's complaining. 229 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:35.039 And he says, this is impressive. 230 00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:36.660 This pointing at Clara. 231 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.440 He's annoying. 232 00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:55.619 And yeah, it's one of those moments where that is a line that could be delivered in a really cruel way, but actually it's really fun because Clara is being annoying because she doesn't care about the adventure we're about to have. 233 00:18:55.740 --> 00:19:01.559 She just wants us to go sit on a park bench with Danny Pink and have like a Tesco sandwich. 234 00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:17.640 You see, I actually am always in favour of the doctor making fun of Clara, partly because Clara is very self-confident and it's fun seeing her taken down a peg or two, but also because she's not offended by it because he's just a stupid old man. 235 00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:21.299 And so no one's feelings are hurt, particularly. 236 00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:23.460 And so all of that is really funny. 237 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:32.759 Like she never reacts with dismay at the doctor making remarks about how wide her face is or, you know, that sort of thing. 238 00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:35.339 And I'm totally there for it. 239 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:43.799 I think actually, and we've said this already this season that where Capaldi's doctor doesn't really work is when he's being cruel to other people who don't really deserve it. 240 00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:46.079 That's actually not much fun to watch. 241 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.660 Well, on that point, I think he needed. 242 00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:51.180 I was thinking about it because you've got Fenton in this episode. 243 00:19:51.299 --> 00:20:05.099 And I think what he needed earlier in the season was a few unambiguously more evil and rotten people to play off against his kind of gruffer, am I a good man, abrasive quality into focus. 244 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:08.880 I think here we finally see them get it right. 245 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:13.500 We finally see the performance and the character actually working together. 246 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.740 Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing too, isn't it? 247 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:24.119 Because the other real moffety thing that's happening here is this examination of the doctor's character. 248 00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:29.099 And I think it's perhaps the most important part of the episode. 249 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:36.839 So we're in a situation where the doctor is disabled in some way and he's only able to do sort of comedy nonsense on the fringes of the story. 250 00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:38.519 Sort of being the Greek chorus. 251 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.200 It's an Arabic. 252 00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:40.920 Yeah, yeah. 253 00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:48.779 But also just the sort of ridiculous stuff with him sort of sticking his hand out of the Tartis and sort of walking it along the railway tracks and stuff. 254 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.900 Like he's doing all sorts of nonsense at this point. 255 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:55.740 And so Clara has to step up and be the doctor. 256 00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:07.619 And it works within the context of the series because she has started lying to Danny at this point, and he got her to promise that she wouldn't do that. 257 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:13.380 And so she's lying to the doctor as you said, Brendan, and lying to Danny at the moment. 258 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:22.920 So at the end of last week, she told the doctor that Danny was fine with it and she didn't tell Danny that this was actually now no longer her last trip. 259 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:34.859 And I think that this examination of the role of the doctor works really well, like really, really well, because it doesn't just work for the Capoldi doctor. 260 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:46.259 It works for the doctor generally because the position that Clara is placed in is a group of people that are being attacked by monsters and picked off one by one. 261 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:51.960 And what does she have to say to them to be the doctor to get them out of it? 262 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:58.019 This is the best part of the story for me, I think, and why I think it's probably the best in series 8. 263 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.500 The absence of the doctor, which we've seen another doctor light episode. 264 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:10.259 But here it sort of works in another way, in a way, similar to perhaps to human nature family of blood, where the absence of the doctor actually reveals what the doctor's impact is. 265 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.539 And here it's not a good one. 266 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:14.880 And this is the story of series 8 for me. 267 00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:21.299 We have a Doctor Who intentionally in terms of the production team is more abrasive and has been given that line, am I a good man? 268 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:28.500 And that, to me, is really dramatically feasible and valid and interesting and it's a great direction to take the show in. 269 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:33.660 And I think it sort of plays out here in the way that it brings the doctor back. 270 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.259 And what I mean by that is it's almost like a magic trick. 271 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:57.180 I might get into this a bit later on, but the way that this works for me is that it sets up, through the absence of the doctor, a real examination of what is his impact on Clara, who is becoming increasingly dangerous in her actions and attitudes and self-endangering in terms of what happens in series 9. 272 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.720 And the doctor sees this from a position of almost impotence. 273 00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:01.559 He can only watch on. 274 00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:05.279 And he realises goodness has nothing to do with it. 275 00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:13.440 And at that moment, I think we start to see the Capaldi doctor, come back to be the doctor, our doctor, and he's realised. 276 00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:23.759 Actually, my actions, in terms of how they're being mimicked here almost by Clara, have been not the actions of a good man, and he starts to change from this point. 277 00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:26.880 And that's to me like the great thing about Flatline. 278 00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:29.339 We get our doctor back. 279 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:31.319 That's so wonderful. 280 00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:47.160 It sort of culminates in that scene in dark water where Clara is behaving in a very what she would classify as assertive doctor way when she's disposing of the keys to force him to do something and the doctor is just endlessly kind with her after that. 281 00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:49.259 And so it's actually it brings in full circle. 282 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:55.500 It's really interesting as well because one of the things that Clara does to become the doctor in this episode is that she lies. 283 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:57.599 Rule number one is the doctor lies. 284 00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.039 Rule number 2 is moffat lies. 285 00:23:59.099 --> 00:23:59.759 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 286 00:23:59.819 --> 00:24:01.259 I always forgot to lies. 287 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:08.460 And they keep coming back to that in this episode where she says, I'm the doctor and the doctor says to her, oh, lies. 288 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.180 They just keep referring to it. 289 00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:15.660 And it builds on the end of last week. 290 00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:18.119 And, you know, also the end of Kill the Moon. 291 00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:24.960 In Kill the Moon, the doctor doesn't tell Clara the full truth, which leads to the rupture in their relationship. 292 00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:27.420 At the end of Mummy on the Orange Express. 293 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.519 He gives her the unvarnished truth and says that he had to make a terrible choice and he didn't know if it would work. 294 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:37.680 And that's his responsibility is to make that kind of choice. 295 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:39.359 So other people don't have to. 296 00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:45.660 And watching these episodes back to back again, I kind of went, oh, when he's saying goodness has nothing to do with it. 297 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:47.400 He's like, I'm not doing this to be good. 298 00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.279 You know, this is not good. 299 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:50.880 This is not good. 300 00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:57.960 This is just necessary and you're enjoying this and to me, that's his problem with what she did today. 301 00:24:58.019 --> 00:24:59.220 She's like, tell me I was good. 302 00:24:59.279 --> 00:24:59.880 Tell me I was good. 303 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:01.559 And he's like, people died. 304 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:02.579 You know? 305 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:07.680 Yeah, it's great that we save the planet, but it's not something to be happy about your performance review. 306 00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:08.579 Yeah. 307 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:12.299 But I mean, she asked him last week, do you love it? 308 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.660 You know, do you love being the person who makes that decision? 309 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.059 And there is a way in which, of course, he does. 310 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:28.380 And I don't think this is particularly a critique of the 12th doctor because it's what David Tennant's doing in voyage of the damned or what Tom is doing in horror of fang rock. 311 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:29.039 You in a situation. 312 00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:35.279 Yeah, yeah, you're in a situation where there's a group of people being picked off one by one by the monster. 313 00:25:35.339 --> 00:25:36.180 What do you do? 314 00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:39.900 You tell them that there's hope? 315 00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.140 Why? 316 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:45.660 Well, not because there's hope because they're likely to run faster if they think they're home, right? 317 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:47.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 318 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:50.579 You know, you make sure that you're the leader. 319 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:55.259 You have to do something now to stand up to the biggest person there. 320 00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:56.400 Fenton, is that his name? 321 00:25:56.460 --> 00:26:01.920 Horrible Fenton in this case. so that you're the one who's listened to and you're the one who's believed. 322 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:05.279 And these are things that the doctor does. 323 00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:12.240 And now we're being invited to regard them as moral problems. 324 00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:14.460 And I think that's really interesting. 325 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:15.480 Oh, completely. 326 00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:33.420 And this is also why I think Moffat sort of goes back to a world that he's drunk from from before, which is actually in Moffat's 1st series of Sherlock, and he has Lestrade, say that line about Sherlock, something along the lines of, he's a great man, and one day, if we're really, really lucky, he might be a good one. 327 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:39.779 That's that sort of moral dilemma that Moffatt likes to really explore through his characters, which works so well here, I think, in Flatline. 328 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:50.279 Well, I think it's the thing that Moffat frequently does is he takes something that we're used to in the show and then puts it under the microscope. like invites us to look at it in a completely new way. 329 00:26:50.339 --> 00:27:01.079 So, I mean, in a way, like lying is bad, blah, blah, blah, you know, wow, that sounded terrible. 330 00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:03.660 So, you know, lying is bad or whatever. 331 00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:12.240 But I mean, lying to those people so that they're more likely to survive seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable thing to do. 332 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.259 I think it's something that the doctor does a lot. 333 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:28.799 And there's that sort of argument around the utilitarian sort of principle, which, again, comes to the fore here, is this the right thing to do in terms of the end result, the end justifying the means, and it does in that regard. 334 00:27:28.859 --> 00:27:33.299 But through that, that's where the questioning of the characters' goodness comes from. 335 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:37.440 Because the doctor then becomes a liar, like a habitual liar. 336 00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:46.799 And even though it might be justified on sort of consequentialist ground, as far as what sort of person he is, is he a good person? 337 00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:53.339 Perhaps that means after seasons and seasons of behaving like this that he isn't such a good person. 338 00:27:53.400 --> 00:28:04.140 Well, that's why we've always had that Terence Dix via Paul Cornell maxim of the doctor makes the villains fall into their own traps, as if that kind of absolves him. blame. 339 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.059 But here, that is what Clara does. 340 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:07.200 She channels the doctor. 341 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.299 She thinks outside the box, you might say. 342 00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.299 And she makes the villain fall into its own trap. 343 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:12.900 Yeah. 344 00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:13.559 Yeah. 345 00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:18.960 I mean, it's it's been a thing that we've been examining since deep breath, isn't it? 346 00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:27.299 where it's always a doctor's role to make sure that the villain is sort of soundly dead by the end of it. 347 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:35.099 And we're not invited to see it in deep breath and we're only invited to kind of infer what happened. 348 00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:46.079 And then last week we get this very similar thing where the doctor says, oh, I saved everyone and you were asleep and I didn't want to wake you and we don't get to see any of that either. 349 00:28:46.200 --> 00:29:08.759 So here I think, as you, you hinted at Stephen, I think you get to see the doctor evaluating his own kind of normal techniques for dealing with something like this and having the doctor and Clara just openly talk about what that role means is really, really properly interesting. 350 00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:18.779 And something that the show hasn't done yet, even though it's spent all of this year so far, looking at the doctor's character and evaluating it in some way. 351 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:23.160 I mean, other people have been the doctor before, haven't they? 352 00:29:23.220 --> 00:29:34.200 Maybe just Romana in Horns of Nimon because Tom is too busy being a massive brat. in that story to do any of his actual job. 353 00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:36.420 I mean, missy and world and often time. 354 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.099 Yeah, well that's coming as well. 355 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:43.859 And again, it is that thing where the doctor becomes a kind of role rather than a particular person. 356 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:45.660 It's a way of behaving. 357 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.500 And there the doctor is also evaluating Missy's performance. 358 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:50.700 Yes, as the doctor. 359 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.279 She's really good. 360 00:29:53.339 --> 00:29:54.299 She's much better than him. 361 00:29:55.980 --> 00:30:04.980 And also, if we go back to something we compared this episode too earlier, in fear her, when the doctor disappears, Rose has to become more like the doctor. 362 00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:19.380 And something I've always found interesting in that is Rose's 1st response is very rose like she gets angry with Chloe and, you know, there's sort of this petulance and the doctor's not here, da, da, da, da. 363 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:26.940 But then she realises no one else is going to do this and she uses what the doctors told her to reason it out. 364 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.859 And from the moment she grabs the pickaxe, she's the doctor for the rest of the episode. 365 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:39.420 And then, again, in doomsday, where she's left alone in the TARDIS, she grabs the psychic paper to try and infiltrate torchwood. 366 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:40.619 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 367 00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:48.180 And it doesn't work the same way that Clara's psychic paper doesn't work on Fenton because he has no imagination. lack of imagination. 368 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:55.019 And you know, Jamie Matheson had fun with the psychic paper last week as a mystery show. 369 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:55.920 That's your worst. 370 00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:56.460 Okay, right. 371 00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:05.819 Yeah, I mean, we've had the doctor as a mask, haven't we before? 372 00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:08.160 And that was sort of David Tennant. 373 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:11.880 It was definitely, you know, the doctor is an acting performance. 374 00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:19.680 But here you have the doctor as a kind of, it is a job or a role or a particular strategy for dealing with people. 375 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:21.779 Or a promise. 376 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:22.380 Yeah, maybe. 377 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:23.099 Yeah, yeah. 378 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:23.640 Yeah, yeah. 379 00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:24.240 Yeah. 380 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:38.519 And with the whole, the Dr. Lies thing, something I find so interesting about that is you compare it to flesh and stone, where men, River says to Amy, no, you're fine, no, and the doctor's like, she's dying and River has a go. 381 00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:41.460 Oh, well, if we tell her she's not, then she'll get better. 382 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:47.579 And it's like, so, you know, the doctor's criticised when he tells the truth and he's criticised for lying as well. 383 00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:55.740 And in both situations, he's telling the truth to Amy and lying to other people for the same reason to make them run faster and hope more. 384 00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:56.940 Yeah, yeah. 385 00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:02.160 Yeah, it's interesting that both actions are right and wrong in different ways. 386 00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:06.660 And I think it's the exploration of that that just makes for good drama. 387 00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.980 There is no definitive answer. 388 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:08.460 Okay. 389 00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:18.839 It's not like there is going to be a statement or a conclusion at the end of which you will be able to say the doctor is X and only X. So that sort of continual interpretation through. 390 00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:25.500 You know, really tricky moral dilemmas and, you know, wonderful stories and dramatic moments is what makes Doctor Who so wonderful. 391 00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:34.619 Don't you think this episode has a stab at it, though, when the doctor finally comes fully grown out of the TARDIS and has his incredibly doctor-ish moment? 392 00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.680 Is it not kind of restatement of doctor-ish principles? 393 00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:39.599 No, this is absolutely what I agree with. 394 00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:46.619 And the issue for me is that it comes at the, is it the ninth episode of the seals and there's 13. 395 00:32:46.799 --> 00:33:10.500 We're about 2 thirds of the way, 3 quarters of the way through, and it's only at this point that we start to see that doctor come back again, which I think is probably a bit of a mistake in terms of the overall series, and perhaps what that does in terms of the doctor in the public imagination, not amongst the nerds, but really the sort of watching public, and I wonder if there's a bit of damage, particularly around the ratings, that doctor who doesn't really sort of recover from after that. 396 00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:11.940 It's the Colin Baker problem. 397 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:20.099 You know, I mean, I don't really believe that they had a mid-80s plan to make him nicer overhauls. that's what they marked it at. 398 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:29.579 I think here there was that plan, but I think, and it's actually really great that you have the buildup to this payoff, but it does come a bit too late. 399 00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:30.839 I think you're right. 400 00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:32.940 I think I think it does come a bit late. 401 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:41.039 The issue with it, though, is that it's just so good as a way of bringing that character back and bringing that moral centre of the character back. 402 00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:43.859 Would you indulge me for a little bit as a story? 403 00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:48.720 Perhaps try and persuade all of you that this is actually a story built around a magic trick. 404 00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:49.380 Okay. 405 00:33:49.440 --> 00:34:06.180 And the magic trick that I'm thinking of sort of borrows from the prestige, which talks about a 3 act structure to a magic trick, which mirrors very nicely and closely the 3 act structure of a Doctor Who story, but also I think the series as a whole, series 8 as a whole. 406 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:17.159 And the 1st part of a magic trick is the pledge, and I'm going to try invoke my best Michael Kane here, where the voiceover on that, on that wonderful film, if you haven't seen it do so. 407 00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:19.440 He says, the pledge is the 1st part. 408 00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:21.599 So the magician shows you something ordinary. 409 00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:26.639 Perhaps he asks you to inspect it and to see if it is indeed real, unaltered, normal. 410 00:34:26.699 --> 00:34:28.019 But of course it isn't. 411 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:32.519 And it's almost as though this is the way that any Doctor Who story starts. 412 00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:42.300 There's an introduction to something wonderful, spooky happening with the beauty-weedy bald man, and we have what Todd might call a TARDIS bitch scene, but actually good. 413 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:43.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 414 00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:47.219 At the beginning of that sort of promises japes and adventures. 415 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:57.719 And it's just that sort of, I guess, he's an ordinary Doctor Who story, except it isn't, and the 2nd part of a magic trick is the twist or the turn. 416 00:34:57.780 --> 00:34:59.760 And again, to invoke Michael Kane. 417 00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:03.059 The magician takes the ordinary and makes it do something extraordinary. 418 00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:06.119 Now you're looking for the secret, but you won't find it. 419 00:35:06.179 --> 00:35:07.380 You're not really looking. 420 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.840 You don't want to know, you want to be fooled. 421 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:17.940 And I think this sort of plays out in the way that, you know, we obviously have a shrinking TARTIS, which is a wonderful visual trick and gag. 422 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:29.340 But in removing the doctor from the narrative, we talked about this before, Clara comes to the fore, she becomes the doctor, if you like, and in a wonderful way, foreshadows, Missy being, can I reveal this? 423 00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.099 Is it is it a spoiler territory? 424 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:35.099 She's revealed to be the master at the end of this series. 425 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:40.920 And then obviously you sort of get the foreshadowing, I guess, of Pants Jody's doctor as well in the years to come. 426 00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:58.139 But it also means, as I say before, the doctor is removed from that narrative, and he's able to watch on like a Greek chorus and comment and observe and understand, uh, that what he's actually being, um, I guess role modelling to Clara actually isn't the actions of a good man. 427 00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:03.300 And this is, I guess, where the 3rd act of a magic trick comes in, which is the prestige. 428 00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.039 And again, Michael Kane. 429 00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:09.719 But you won't clap yet because making something disappear isn't enough. 430 00:36:09.780 --> 00:36:11.340 You have to bring it back. 431 00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:15.960 That's why every magic creek has a 3rd act, the hardest part. 432 00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:18.179 And I think this is what you were talking about before. 433 00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:22.199 Peter, when you said about the doctor being brought back. 434 00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:30.119 And I think this is the moment, I think in series 8 and why this story is, I think the pinnacle of that series for me. 435 00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:39.480 This is where we get the man in the red line magician's code to bring us into the 3rd and last act of the series, which is the return of the doctor, the return of our doctor. 436 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:41.940 The doctor's not just the magician. 437 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.260 The doctor is the magic. 438 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:48.719 It's just wonderful, the way that the whole story just acts as a keystone to the entire series. 439 00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:50.820 I think it's absolutely beautiful and wonderful. 440 00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:53.460 That's really great. 441 00:36:53.519 --> 00:37:00.659 Yeah, and also, at the end, the tartist becomes a magic box. comes that little magic box when it's in siege mode. 442 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.219 Yeah, it does. 443 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:04.079 Also, I liked your Michael Kane. 444 00:37:04.139 --> 00:37:08.219 My Michael Kane is from that Jack the Ripper film where he goes, somebody must know something. 445 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:18.300 My Michael Kane is from the swarm and it's, um, the bees, general, they're getting more intelligent. 446 00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.139 He'll do anything, won't he? 447 00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:25.679 Man whose agent doesn't know the meaning of the word no. 448 00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.679 Him and Malcolm McDowell. 449 00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:33.000 He was asked about that once and his response was, I've never had a mortgage. 450 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:36.599 Brilliant. 451 00:37:45.659 --> 00:38:01.019 So I've said several times this season that one of the weird things about it is that all of these episodes really seem to be interrogating the doctor's heroism, and they all seem to be doing it in vastly different ways. 452 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:05.340 And I've speculated that either that's a stroke of genius or a horrific mess. 453 00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.460 And I think, actually, probably, it's a horrific mess. 454 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:22.619 And I think that this is the 1st one that successfully does it because it invites the doctor to stand outside of himself and see himself in action and then he's able to evaluate what that looks like. 455 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:32.219 And it's his refusal to tell Clara that she did well because that's actually a moral judgement. 456 00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:36.059 Like, let's go from Michael Kane to Roger Moore. 457 00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:42.599 You know how Roger prevents that lovely young lady in for your eyes only from killing. 458 00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:49.739 He doesn't want her to take revenge for her parents' death because he knows what that will do to her. 459 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:56.400 And so he'll take responsibility for killing the bad guys in order to protect her morally. 460 00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:58.019 This is the same thing. 461 00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:06.960 The doctor doesn't want Clara to be proud of having been a good doctor because being a good doctor is not being a good person. 462 00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:09.420 Yeah, not something to necessarily make you proud. 463 00:39:09.539 --> 00:39:10.199 Exactly. 464 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.880 And so he's reluctant to do it. 465 00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:19.260 Not because he's a bit of a bastard or whatever, which is what Clara says, you know, he can't bring himself to give her a compliment or something. 466 00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.500 It is genuinely because he doesn't think it's a compliment. 467 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:24.420 He thinks it's a pretty harsh critique. 468 00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:26.460 Yeah. 469 00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:37.019 And I think that him becoming more the doctor we know really starts with Rigsy because at 1st he's really dismissive of Rigsy winning off the screen. 470 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:45.420 But as soon as Rigsy comes to the same conclusion the doctor comes to about it, being a locked room mystery and they're still in the room, the doctor's like, no, don't let him leave. 471 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:48.780 And actually, no, she's leaving. 472 00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:50.880 Of course, knowledge is leaving. 473 00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:51.179 Yeah. 474 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:52.260 When you say that kind of thing. 475 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:53.699 That's what scares him off. 476 00:39:55.559 --> 00:40:04.260 And that beautiful moment at the end where he's just full of praise for Rigsy. like, you know, your last artwork saved the world. 477 00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:05.760 I can't wait to see what you do next. 478 00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:09.300 And there's no backhanded compliment or anything like that. 479 00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:12.960 It is humble genuine praise. 480 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:17.280 And it totally feels within the character we already know. 481 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:23.760 I mean, something similar happens, doesn't it, in Into the Dalek, where he's super dismissive of Ross being killed. 482 00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:27.179 You know, he's the top layer if anyone wants to say a few words. 483 00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:39.420 And then Gretchen gets killed afterwards and he's abashed and kind of humbled and properly recognises her sacrifice and acknowledges it, you know, in similar words, I think. 484 00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:50.219 So the doctor has been learning, I think, throughout the season, but I do think that this is the most direct and effective lesson so far. 485 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:06.719 Rigsey and, in particular, Jovan Wade's performance is great untapped companion material. 486 00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:07.440 Yeah. 487 00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:09.239 He's a real Linda with a Y. 488 00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:10.980 He's charming as hell, isn't he? 489 00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:11.579 Great. 490 00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:12.659 I mean I hope he'll come back. 491 00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:16.679 Because you do have Clara as the doctor. 492 00:41:16.739 --> 00:41:17.519 She needs companion. 493 00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:19.559 Yeah, yeah. able to fill that role. 494 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:20.099 Yep. 495 00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:23.039 And their chemistry. 496 00:41:23.099 --> 00:41:27.900 Clara and Rigsey's chemistry is really, it's really sweet. 497 00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:32.820 For me, it evokes like the best of the Doctor and Rose relationship. 498 00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:42.539 Like there is an immediate affection and rapport between them and that whole business on the train with the airband. 499 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.900 Which was there from the very 1st draft. 500 00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:51.420 Like Rigsy's got to make this huge gesture and Clara's like, I've got a hairband. 501 00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:52.619 You know? 502 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:57.659 I'll just take my hairband and I will think of you every time I look at it. 503 00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:05.699 I mean, I have to say, I don't think Clara's been this funny before. 504 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:10.800 And again, one of the attributes of being the doctor is that you have to be funny. 505 00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:11.460 Yeah, yeah. 506 00:42:11.460 --> 00:42:13.380 So being such a funny script. 507 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:20.519 It makes her funny and so she can be the doctor and it makes Capaldi's doctor because he is commenting on the action funnier than he's been so far. 508 00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:23.760 So he is now assuming the mantle of the doctor more successfully as well. 509 00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:31.380 Yeah, although I have to say that all of the horrible things about Capaldi's character that everyone complains about, I think, they're absolutely hilarious. 510 00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:42.360 And, you know, I think that that's one of the reasons why Moffatt made him like that isn't just because he wanted a morally problematic doctor because he had that in Matt Smith. 511 00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:47.159 He wanted a doctor whose normal affect was kind of unpleasant and hilarious. 512 00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:50.880 And he wanted the doctor as himself with his companion. 513 00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:52.320 Yeah, yeah, that's right. 514 00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:56.880 Eventually, eventually our 2nd doctor is just ourselves. 515 00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:06.239 I think you're going to have to do a mega cup this season of every time someone says that the 12th doctor is just Stephen Moffat's self-insert character. 516 00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:09.300 Fingers come up in every episode. 517 00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:24.119 Well, I mean, I've always said this, though, both of Russell Stockters are Russell, you know, everything is superficially fantastic and brilliant, and then there's a real kind of dark cynicism at the heart of it. 518 00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:36.000 Moffatt's doctors are both bastards and they're the smartest person in the room, but they're kind of obnoxious and they're liars and all sorts of things. to strongly. 519 00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:36.599 Yeah, yeah. 520 00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:38.340 So I think absolutely. 521 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:39.780 He's a self-insert. 522 00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:45.300 But even more so, I think, now that he's Peter Capaldi and Scottish and that age. 523 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:46.679 Yeah, yeah. 524 00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:48.900 And, yeah, in terms of chibnol. 525 00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:50.579 Well, he just never touches up his roots. 526 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:13.500 It's interesting that you talk about chipmol, because it strikes me that this is the kind of storytelling that the chipmolera should have gone for. 527 00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:14.699 Obviously, the aesthetic is right. 528 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:22.079 I mean, Sheffield and Bristol are. interchangeable at the best of times, but you can absolutely see Yaz in the Clara role. 529 00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:25.019 It's kind of down to earth mystery. 530 00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:28.739 Like, you know, a bit of a skew on modern life in the UK playing out. 531 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.139 And it's a mystery to me why we never really went there. 532 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:36.539 I mean, the closest arachnids, the arachnids in the UK is the closest thing I can think of. 533 00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:40.320 And when compared to this, it's a very straightforward, it's not a mystery. 534 00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:41.340 It's just straightforward story. 535 00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:50.940 I think the problem is that I don't think that Chibnal is comfortable problematizing a female doctor. 536 00:44:51.840 --> 00:45:04.619 And think about the reaction that everyone has to the roof doctor, who is a bit brusque and imperious, and everyone really liked her. 537 00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:10.380 And she was playing on easy mode because she only turned up a few times and just sort of had to come and sort of be fabulous. 538 00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:11.820 Yeah, yeah. 539 00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:15.000 But I don't think he wants to make the doctor a problem. 540 00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:26.400 And that's, I think that's the reason that one of my favourite lines in her era is when she says, actually, it turns out it's not that flat a team structure after all. 541 00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:27.239 I think that's good. 542 00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:32.280 That's her showing a bit of steel showing her teeth, but generally he's reluctant to do that. 543 00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:49.920 And I think that there is a group of fans, there's a big sector of fandom that doesn't want the doctor to be central to the show, that doesn't want the show to be about the character of Doctor Who as much as it is about the adventures that the doctor goes on. 544 00:45:49.980 --> 00:45:53.519 And I think that Chibnal is one of those. 545 00:45:53.579 --> 00:46:18.119 And I think that that's the big reason for me, why I think his era doesn't work, is that he's reluctant to send to the doctor, and I think that it turns out that centring the doctor and interrogating the doctor is really interesting and making the doctor a character who is sometimes a problem in a way that he's always been, right? 546 00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:21.119 Right from Trouton, right from Hartnall. 547 00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:22.019 I know toly child. 548 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:25.260 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that the doctor is potentially a problem. 549 00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:30.000 And I think he's been reluctant to do that to the 1st female doctor. 550 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:41.820 Or possibly it's just how Chibmill doesn't want because, I mean, Peter Davison's doctor, who I think is Chibnall's doctor in a sort of real way, isn't examined in the same way either. 551 00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:43.260 I don't know. 552 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.539 I think it's a confidence thing. 553 00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:55.559 I think Moffat is at an all-time high in his confidence when he's making the show now, and you have to be confident to kind of interrogate the show and the doctor like this. 554 00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:56.219 Yeah. 555 00:46:56.219 --> 00:46:59.579 And you have to be confident to embrace the essential silliness. 556 00:46:59.579 --> 00:47:06.300 Of the concept in this, of the tiny TARDIS and the doctor moving around like thing in the Adams family. 557 00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:10.139 Um, And I don't think Chipmill had that confidence. 558 00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:18.420 I also think you have to be confident to have a fairly unreconstructed, nasty character like Fenton and let them walk away at the end. 559 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:20.099 If it was a Chipnell story. 560 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:26.579 You'd have big arrows pointing to him saying, this is a racist or whatever, like Rose Park's pal in Rosa. 561 00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:27.960 Prasco. 562 00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:30.420 I'd forgotten his name. 563 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:33.239 Yeah, and so I think it's a confidence thing. 564 00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:37.500 Moffat has the confidence and Jane Matson as a newcomer has the confidence to go with that. 565 00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:39.840 Something about that, though. 566 00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:44.940 And I absolutely agree that this season really plays that element very well. 567 00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:53.940 But looking at the Whitaker era, the times where the character is deliberately, morally ambiguous. 568 00:47:54.059 --> 00:47:58.619 Other times the character was massively criticised by the fan base. 569 00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.860 And I'm thinking the end of it takes you away. 570 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:08.579 There's a very vocal section of the fan base who don't see Hannah and Eric remaining a family as a happy ending. 571 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:10.260 They think Eric is irredeemable. 572 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:23.639 There's SpyFall, which Chipnall and Whittaker have been interviewed about. is like, yes, what the doctor does to the master is a problem, you know, but it's defeating the master and in that situation, the end's justify the means. 573 00:48:23.699 --> 00:48:25.199 The end of can you hear me? 574 00:48:25.260 --> 00:48:27.480 The end of, can you hear me? 575 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:35.639 With the doctor not knowing how to emotionally respond to Graham, if that was Capaldi, it would be on YouTube, doctor highlight reels. 576 00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:38.699 But because it's Jody, it's not. 577 00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:53.219 But I do, I do think that Tribnol shies away from characters criticising the doctor, which is a, which is a problem, because Clara criticises the doctor several times this series, but now is kind of going, oh, now that I've walked a mile in your shoes. 578 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:54.119 Actually this is addictive. 579 00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:55.559 Yeah, yeah. 580 00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:58.019 That's a really good line too, isn't it? 581 00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:01.380 You don't discover that something's addictive until you try and give it arm. 582 00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:14.639 And the doctors never try to give it up so he can't say that he's addicted to it, but Clara is clearly addicted to it and has tried to give it up last week. and was completely unable to do it. 583 00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:18.420 Doctor Who reacts to what's come before. 584 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:19.440 Yeah. 585 00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:32.219 And I can't help but feel with Chibnall that it was a reaction against the centring of the doctor and the problematizing of him and the examination of him, which I think probably goes all the way back to Rose, I think. 586 00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:40.380 I think it's really interesting that we talk about Chipnol reacting against what went before because of course Moffat always acts against what went before. 587 00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:53.219 And so it's only logical that after all the hype of the 50th anniversary and all the focus on Doctor Who and what a beloved institution and character it was, his next logical step was to go, okay, let's interrogate that character a little bit. 588 00:49:53.280 --> 00:50:00.480 Let's see what makes him take and whether he really is a good man and let's, in the early part of the season, maybe say he's not a good man. 589 00:50:00.539 --> 00:50:04.019 And like I say, with all the problems of it takes too long to get there and everything. 590 00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:06.960 It was a very interesting tack for next time. 591 00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:07.800 Absolutely. 592 00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:08.039 Yeah. 593 00:50:08.099 --> 00:50:34.320 I just think if it takes 2 or 3 episodes to do that, then great and then move on, but I feel that when you're sort of dragging it out to those lengths and really alienating people, particularly people who, as, you know, non-hardcore fans are watching it for, you know, Spikyhead, David Tennant and Floppyhead, Matt Smith and how wonderful and cute and lovely they are, although we've seen in their performances, that's probably not the case, then you will risk losing them. 594 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:38.099 And I think that's ultimately what we got towards the end of the season with the ratings. 595 00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:45.900 I actually have to say too, that this examination of the character, although it lands very, very well in this episode. 596 00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:51.000 I think ultimately it doesn't end up going anywhere. 597 00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:53.460 There's a lot of things going. 598 00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:54.900 We've talked about some of them already. 599 00:50:54.960 --> 00:51:08.219 We'll talk about some of them in our last few episodes on this season, but I just can't see that what happens in death in heaven really properly solves or rounds this out in any kind of way. 600 00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:13.619 And we're still making the same criticisms of the doctor in that final episode. 601 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.500 I'm really not sure that it properly lands. 602 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:26.280 And then there is this very, very strange ending and will obviously get there, but there's too much unfinished business and there's no real. 603 00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:28.800 There's no real conclusion. 604 00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:35.099 There's been a whole heap of examination, a whole heap of question raising, but I'm not sure that it really goes anywhere. 605 00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.679 I mean, the central problem is that the doctor is a hero. 606 00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:41.639 Yeah, we can talk around it as much as we want, but at the end of the day, that's what he's going to be. 607 00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:42.960 Yeah, absolutely, yeah. 608 00:51:43.019 --> 00:51:47.280 And that, again, that comes through in the way that you have that wonderful resolution. 609 00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:49.079 You know, you're the monsters. 610 00:51:49.139 --> 00:51:51.059 That is the role that you seem determined to play. 611 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:54.420 So I must play mine, the man who stops the monsters. 612 00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:55.739 He's always going to be that. 613 00:52:21.059 --> 00:52:24.360 Well, then, listen, that's all we have time for this week. 614 00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:28.980 We'll be back next week to get lost in the woods in the Forest of the Night. 615 00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:48.300 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter, and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Intertera, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek project. 616 00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:52.800 Until next time, remember what Hyacinth UK always says? 617 00:52:52.860 --> 00:52:54.480 Don't touch the walls. 618 00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:56.820 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 619 00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:57.840 Good night. 620 00:52:57.900 --> 00:52:58.679 Good night. 621 00:52:58.739 --> 00:52:59.820 See you. 622 00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:09.239 That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Stephen B, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Peter Griffiths. 623 00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:11.400 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lann. 624 00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:17.159 This episode, the Prestige, was recorded on the 30th of April 2023 and released on the 11th of June. 625 00:53:26.219 --> 00:53:42.599 If your immediate response to Flatline on broadcast was to claim that the plot was a bit thin or that it left you feeling flat, please report immediately to your designated processing centre. think that's it. 626 00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:43.320 What do you think? 627 00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:44.159 Great. 628 00:53:44.219 --> 00:53:45.719 Yeah, fantastic. 629 00:53:45.780 --> 00:53:46.559 Okay, cool. 630 00:53:46.619 --> 00:53:47.639 Now, how long do we have? 631 00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:49.800 An hour. 632 00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:51.960 I think an hour before the next one. 633 00:53:52.019 --> 00:53:52.619 Okay. 634 00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:54.659 That's enough time for me to do a Wii, isn't it? 635 00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:56.340 Well I don't know. 636 00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:57.360 How much? 637 00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:59.820 Enough time for you to do two. 2 or three. 638 00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:01.139 I can go crazy. 639 00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:08.099 I wouldn't have to nip out, which is a thing that's featured on the... 640 00:54:08.099 --> 00:54:10.139 So that's the complete history volume. 641 00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:24.420 And I will just read you something that was cut from the script at a very early stage when there were a lot more graffiti artists because it was going to be revealed that one of the graffiti artists came back to this spot every year to tell the homeless living around here to look out for the boneless, basically. 642 00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:31.260 And so the story was going to end with this dialogue. hold on. 643 00:54:31.380 --> 00:54:35.159 But we're the sliding boneless hiding on your wall. 644 00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:38.519 They'll crack your back upon the rack, make you 9 feet tall. 645 00:54:38.579 --> 00:54:42.179 But wear the sneaky boneless slide under any door. 646 00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:45.780 They'll make you thin, they'll take your skin, you won't be you no more. 647 00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.719 No, you won't be you no more. 648 00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:51.840 And then there was going to be the sound of the boneless behind them. 649 00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:53.639 Not wild. 650 00:54:53.699 --> 00:54:55.619 They made me thin, I'll take this. 651 00:54:55.679 --> 00:55:00.300 Yeah, that's right All right, I'm going to stop recording. 652 00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:04.800 Likewise, I'm gonna I'm gonna go have some fud. 653 00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:06.420 I might have some food as well.