WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:03:44

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Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that's thinking of closing down its

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Twitter account completely and moving over to Tree Facebook.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Matthew.

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I'm Kevin.

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Well, the moon's an egg.

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Time can be rewritten, and for just one Saturday night in 2014, an

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unexpected forest engulfed the entire Earth.

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Let's see how the Coal Hill year 8 gifted and talented group cope

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with this as we discuss in the forest of the night.

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So, Brendan's not here this week because James, he refused to do

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this episode, is that right?

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I think in his words, it was anything, but... for the night.

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And I think that Peter as well was saying some stuff this week

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about how he thinks it's a premise that the show can't possibly

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pull off that it's a little bit too ambitious as an idea.

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And so it never really, really looks real.

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But I have to say that I'm not convinced about that.

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Oh my god, a Doctor Who episode that doesn't look real.

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Yeah, yeah, well, there's that.

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Yes.

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Is it even trying to look real as the thing?

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It's out of the gate saying, we are doing Doctor Who is a fairy

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tale and playing with the communal myth idea.

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So just set it in a forest, not a couple bits of set dressing.

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That's all you actually need to convey that idea.

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It's that really funny line from Capoldi where he says it's like

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the new forest only newer because, you know, Doctor Who, you know

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frequently went to the new forest to record forest scenes back in

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the day, as did Blake 7.

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So this is the new forest only newer.

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I have to say that close up, it looks like a forest with a few

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things in it, and I think that the long shot, the computer

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generated long shot, is actually pretty good and does sell it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think it sells the premise.

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I would say the shots of the globe where the ocean is also green

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were a little confusing.

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The shots of London skyline throughout the episode, I think, are

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gorgeous.

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Like, there's those beautiful, like, amber, gold coloured shots at

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the end of sunset over London as the trees sort of evaporate away

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where it's just, like, I know people are always posting special

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effects shots at the Chip Nolan saying, this is the best doctor

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who ever looked.

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And I'm just looking at these effects shots saying, what's the

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difference?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think that for some people there is a kind of level of realism

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that Doctor Who kind of needs to keep to, and it's, I think, the

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baseline level of realism that's kind of set during the classic

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series, so you can have faster than light travel.

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You can have people in rubber outfits being monsters and stuff.

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But when the moon's an egg or when a forest grows up overnight

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that's a little bit too far for them.

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And I don't know what those people think they're watching.

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I clearly haven't seen any of the Sylvester McCoy era.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Or a mind robber.

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If your argument.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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If your argument is this Doctor Who story. stretches the bounds of

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my credulity.

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Yes.

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What?

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What have you been watching the last few decades?

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Yeah, I think it's telling a particular kind of story and this is

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the Moffat approach to Doctor Who is a self-conscious thing about

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storytelling.

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And as you said, Kevin, the forest is where fairy tales are set

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and the forest is, as the episode itself says, a source of primal

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fear.

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Which is why it's got the wolves and the tiger.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Well, I think it has the tiger because of Blake.

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Right.

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Because we needed one burning bright in the forest of the night.

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It's where the title comes from.

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Tommy reads that poem out, the tiger from songs of innocence and

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experience.

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I think it's from Songs of Innocence, in Planet of the Spiders.

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So the tiger is definitely there for that reason, but the wolf is

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there because the wolf is what's in the forest.

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And I just noticed this this meve's wearing a red hood.

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Red hood, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I'd actually thought when it opened, I assumed it was a take on

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Little Red Riding Hood.

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Ah, yes, yeah.

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And the doctor does call Clara little Red Riding Hood, I think, at

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some point during the episode.

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It's got that very short story opening, doesn't it?

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where the little girl turns up in the TARDIS like comes knocking

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on the door asking for the doctor.

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And Frank Cultural Boyce wrote like lots of casualty and stuff

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like that, but he is also a children's book rider.

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He was also suggested to Stephen by RTD.

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Oh, wow, okay. as a writer because they'd worked together back in

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the 90s on the soap opera together.

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And he writes smile.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Well, yeah, I thought that that opening was really very kind of

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literary because it goes out of its way to establish Maeve's

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character.

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She's someone who's confused, who doesn't understand quite what's

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going on.

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There's something special that sets her apart from other people

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and she has a sort of inability to understand things.

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She suggests to the doctor that he goes and asks someone else who

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understands the TARDIS about why the TARDIS isn't working.

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And so that seemed to me to be a very kind of literary way of

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establishing the character.

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And it feels like a very literary way of establishing the whole

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show.

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Like that scene in in of itself, you could show to anybody to be

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like, this is what Doctor Who is about.

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It's got, like, for example, one of the all-time best explanations

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of how the TARDIS is bigger on the inside saying, like, you know, a

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bottle of soda is this big and has this much sugar in it.

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I totally forgot so many lines in this episode and that is one of

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the best.

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It's so good.

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They actually say coke and they don't then have to say other, you

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know, unhealthy or also available. right.

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Yeah, he didn't say bubble shark.

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Oh if only.

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It's really good, isn't it?

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It's really great And something that we haven't seen before.

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And this is a one off director.

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She's someone who doesn't come back.

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Cherie Folksson.

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Yeah, Cherie Folkeson.

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She doesn't come back.

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But she shoots that sequence as they're walking along the kind of

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it's not quite a cloister, but that sort of mezzanine in the

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TARDIS console room, which I think is really dynamic and

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interesting.

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Yeah.

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It's a very good walk and talk.

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Yeah.

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There's a lot of very interesting camera work here.

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Like, I noticed like a lot of like odd camera angles or even, I

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think, a bit of fish eye to try and emphasise the difference in

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size between the adult characters and the children. get really

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weird camera angles like Capaldi pointing out a child by having

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his hand in the foreground, just really interest in playing with

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the scale of contrast between characters.

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I loved that.

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Well, when the camera comes into the TARDIS, it comes in at

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Maeve's head high, too, I seem to notice.

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So it is absolutely selling what that space looks like to a little

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child.

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And I think Doctor Who has had a kind of fractious relationship

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with its child actors over the years.

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I think both Maeve and Ruby, but Maeve particularly.

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I think they're both great.

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I think all of the children in this are very good.

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Well, it shouldn't be a surprise.

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Ruby's terribly good.

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She's Peppa Pig.

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Yeah.

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Oh, is she?

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She played Peppa Pig for 10 years.

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Oh my goodness.

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I mean, they're all adults now, aren't they?

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Terrifyingly.

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Yeah, wow, I didn't know that.

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She's so good.

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And she's properly funny.

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I've remarked before that this season gets teaching, right?

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You know, Moffatt was a teacher.

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The 1st couple of things he wrote, press gang and chalk a set in

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schools.

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And so this sort of stuff like Clara having a big pile of marking

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on board the TARDIS.

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There's a joke that we say that you shouldn't really start marking

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the work unless it's travelled to and from home, you know, a

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couple of times, like to and from school, like wait until it's

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been in your car for sort of 30 miles and then get round to

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marking it.

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Clearly, Clara's rule is, you know, 300 light years and a couple

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of centuries and then she'll get round the market.

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Which is difficult when you live so close to it.

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That's right.

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Did you drive backwards?

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I have to drive around the block, a fair amount.

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Yeah.

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For about 3 hours in the morning, to get the miles up.

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Yeah.

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And that stuff like the stuff where the kids actually rings really

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true.

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I think it's it's pretty great.

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I thought the children were quite well characterised.

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Usually children are very poorly characterised in television.

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They don't seem real, like they seem either too adult or too

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naive.

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And I'm not sure that they're year 8, but they certainly pitched

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as, you know, in that in-between space.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think that's right.

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I think because there's a bunch of children.

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He does go out of his way to give them different characteristics, I

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think.

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So they work.

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And I just think that little girl who does Maeve.

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I think she's probably too young for you, a year age, and I think

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she's really good.

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I love the, um, one of the characters who's standing there saying

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um, this is upsetting me a lot and I'm forgetting my anger

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management.

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Well, that's the kid who loses it and storms out of the classroom

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when he's told to say please to get the other kid's dictionary.

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I'm forgetting my anger management.

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Bradley.

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I love that at the end.

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That's the kid Danny shouts at saying, please, is more interesting

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and impressive than anything the doctor can show them.

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Also, there's references, not just to literature, but to the

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beginning of the show, It's set in Coal Hill School.

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They're talking about students and their strange...

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Yeah, yeah.

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There are flashbacks to those students.

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Yes.

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It's a very conscious reference to an earthly child.

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And they're not idiots.

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Yeah, the children aren't stupid and we discover that it's just

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called gifted and talented because Clara thinks it makes them feel

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better about themselves or something, but they aren't stupid.

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And in fact, Ruby's really smart.

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Ruby comes up with quite a lot of stuff.

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She's the one who notices the ring in the tree in the museum.

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Museum, yeah.

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Yeah, and then notices that there's no ring in the trees that have

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grown up overnight.

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I think that's really great.

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I also liked the whole gift and talented angle.

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I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated, but it kind of gives the

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impression that all of these kids are the sort of oddball misfits

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like as an ADHD child, it got thrown into a lot of like child

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support groups like that where they would do like their own little

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small scale meetings to try and help us deal with all our

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personality issues and stuff like that.

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And I like that those are the kids they chose to star in a Doctor

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Who episode because like, yeah, those are probably the ones that

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are going to be, you know, the kids that are gravitating to Doctor

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Who in the 1st place, the nerdy misfits who just want to escape

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his TV.

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Yeah exactly.

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It is it is really good.

255
00:12:12.179 --> 00:12:15.000
I mean, the there are some people who don't like seeing children

256
00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.179
in Doctor Who, but for me, the fact that there are children in

257
00:12:18.179 --> 00:12:22.379
Doctor Who now is the result of the fact that the show is engaging

258
00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:25.379
at a deeper level with the real world.

259
00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:30.360
So it's not a show that's set in kind of space corridors or set in

260
00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:34.440
scientific research bases and things anymore, it's very frequently

261
00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.559
set in very ordinary places and that's where children are.

262
00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:40.259
I totally agree with you on that point.

263
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.639
It's very much a pert we kind of concept of the show. that, you

264
00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:48.419
know, weird things happening in the real world, in the real

265
00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:48.720
world.

266
00:12:48.779 --> 00:12:52.379
And Frank Cultural Voice was a Perti fan.

267
00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:52.799
Right.

268
00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:57.480
And and it came at it as, well, this is the version of the show I

269
00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:58.080
want to make.

270
00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:03.419
And and then sort of expanded the, you know, what would happen if

271
00:13:03.419 --> 00:13:05.580
you know, this forest popped up overnight?

272
00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:09.840
Like it's the whole yeti on the loo and tooting back kind of

273
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.100
conception of the show.

274
00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.639
Like it juxtaposes to odd things, doesn't it?

275
00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:19.139
Like it brings the world where fairy tales are set, crashes into

276
00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:20.340
contemporary London.

277
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.820
And I think the thing, it's sort of an extension of what I think

278
00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:26.700
works about series 8 in general, we were talking about Kill the

279
00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:30.960
Moon earlier and talking about how those ridiculous premises throw

280
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.379
a lot of fans off, but what I think really works for series 8.

281
00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:37.799
It's about crashing these ridiculous premises and to utterly

282
00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.019
serious emotional drama about real people.

283
00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.259
Because that is more important than just being set in our world

284
00:13:43.259 --> 00:13:47.220
being set in a world of people whose relationships actually matter

285
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:48.360
and feel real.

286
00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:55.259
And so I think the previous episodes that have dealt with Clara

287
00:13:55.259 --> 00:14:00.240
and Danny have done it with varying degrees of success, listen, I

288
00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.779
think, which is obviously set during their 1st date, does a really

289
00:14:03.779 --> 00:14:08.700
good job of making that relationship important and getting us to

290
00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:09.899
see how it happens.

291
00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:16.139
But this here, which is episode 10, is kind of at the point of the

292
00:14:16.139 --> 00:14:20.460
series where maybe Boomtown is or something like that earlier on.

293
00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.179
And I think it's the only real proper chance that we get to spend

294
00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:27.899
time watching those 2 in a relationship.

295
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:34.500
And I think it's absolutely necessary going into dark water next

296
00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:36.659
week that we get to see that happening.

297
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.419
And the relationship is really great.

298
00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:43.500
You know, Clara has been lying to Danny all along.

299
00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:47.279
And previous episodes of associated Clara lying with her

300
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.639
increasing role as the doctor, the doctor lies.

301
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.299
And so Clara lies in Flatline, for instance, in order to be the

302
00:14:54.299 --> 00:14:57.600
doctor, but she's been lying since mummy.

303
00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:01.440
And there's some call out to the doctor lying, I think, as well

304
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.600
that Clara makes in this episode.

305
00:15:03.659 --> 00:15:07.620
But Danny doesn't rub her nose in it or anything like that.

306
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.460
Like Danny doesn't force her to apologise or get angry with her.

307
00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:16.139
He just says, go home, have a think, and then just tell me the

308
00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:16.440
truth.

309
00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:18.960
I don't mind what the truth is, but just tell it to me.

310
00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:20.639
I think it's great.

311
00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:24.779
I personally really love the way Danny's drama with Clara is drawn

312
00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:28.440
out because I think there's common misconception among fandom that

313
00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.059
Danny is controlling or abusive.

314
00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.220
I see a lot of people tweeting things along those lines.

315
00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.600
There's even a quite bad big finish where Danny goes on a trip

316
00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:38.519
with a 12th doctor and spends the whole time.

317
00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:41.039
They basically just hate each other the whole time and are

318
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.679
fighting over who gets possession of Clara, which is, I think

319
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.500
awful and terrible and small minded.

320
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.740
Whereas what's so great about the relationship in series 8 in my

321
00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:52.980
opinion, is that Danny disagrees with the doctor, but also

322
00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:55.320
respects Clara enough to make her own choices.

323
00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:58.500
He just worries for emotional health and tries to ask her to

324
00:15:58.500 --> 00:15:59.039
communicate.

325
00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:02.940
I think that's a much more sophisticated conflict and one that

326
00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:03.659
rings a lot more true.

327
00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:05.460
I didn't get that.

328
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:06.659
Oh, okay.

329
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.960
Yeah, I mean, he kind of says, I don't mind what the truth is

330
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.559
remember?

331
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:11.879
I don't mind what the truth is.

332
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.799
He does give her instructions.

333
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:18.360
Like he gives her instructions at the end of the caretaker.

334
00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:23.100
And I think he doesn't come off well in the caretaker at all, but

335
00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:24.299
you know, does anyone?

336
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:25.740
No, it's pretty terrible.

337
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:31.679
People tend to hark back to that when they, yeah, they focus on

338
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:35.340
that scene at the end, the caretaker as being, that's what, that's

339
00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:38.279
why they're saying he's controlling and, and, you know, pushing

340
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.100
her into a situation because that's, that's the bit that they

341
00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:42.299
focus on.

342
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.820
And so here he says, you have to tell me the truth.

343
00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.960
And I think that's a perfectly reasonable requirement, if you're

344
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.259
having a relationship, you know, tell the truth about important

345
00:16:52.259 --> 00:16:52.740
things.

346
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.519
And then the very last time the 2 of them interact in last

347
00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:00.480
Christmas, Danny also gives her an instruction.

348
00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:04.500
You know, you have to give me 5 minutes every day but you aren't

349
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:07.200
allowed to spend more than 5 minutes on it.

350
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:10.319
You've got to kind of get past this.

351
00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:15.480
And so seeing Danny, you know, and he's taller than her and all of

352
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:16.079
that sort of thing.

353
00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:19.920
So, you know, I guess that's how people kind of read him as

354
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:20.400
controlling.

355
00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:22.319
But I thought he was super charming here.

356
00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:26.339
And there's that moment where she finds him incredibly hot.

357
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.539
Remember, it's that sort of she's about to say something about the

358
00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:33.180
way he orders the children around and the way that he deals with

359
00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:37.079
them and she ends up just saying how incredibly hot he is.

360
00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:40.319
Because he's taking care of the children and putting them first.

361
00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:42.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

362
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:45.900
I think that really rings true as to why Clara would fall for a

363
00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:49.740
guy like him in the 1st place because I've been watching series 7

364
00:17:49.740 --> 00:17:52.680
again recently, and I mean, obviously Clara acts like a totally

365
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:57.059
different character there, but you can kind of see this sort of

366
00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.240
charming facade she puts up as the same sort of charm offensive

367
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.480
she might have put up with Danny, where she is this giggly manic

368
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.180
pixie dream girl where she's trying to present herself as this

369
00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:07.740
like perfect heroine.

370
00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:12.359
And obviously she's a real person and so much of series 8 is her

371
00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:15.720
trying to build herself into 2 people. one built in the real world

372
00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.200
and one built as still that bubbly space character.

373
00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:22.619
And you can see her trying to build this perfect relationship with

374
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:25.980
Danny, where she's trying to perform being this ordinary person

375
00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:29.279
because I guess maybe that's just her fetish.

376
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:34.920
I just think that the best illustration of that is the one

377
00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.220
successful bit of the caretaker, which is the pre-credit sequence

378
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:42.720
which I just think is unbelievably funny and clever, and it is her

379
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:46.799
rushing from one world to another, from one role to the other, and

380
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:50.880
kind of not really successfully being able to separate them.

381
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.059
I'm not sure Clara actually exists.

382
00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:55.140
Really?

383
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:01.740
I have a feeling that Moffat wrote Clara to be the impossible girl

384
00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:06.299
and then he gets to series 8 and goes, okay, what character does

385
00:19:06.299 --> 00:19:06.660
she have?

386
00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:12.839
Yeah, I think so Series 7 really starts off with her looking after

387
00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:13.980
children, right?

388
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:17.759
That's the very 1st thing that we see is her with Angie and Arcy

389
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:22.019
and she had intended to travel, but had ended up staying behind to

390
00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:23.579
look after children.

391
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.460
And we do see her interacting with children in a positive way.

392
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:30.420
We see her in Rings of Ackerton with Mary, for instance, looking

393
00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:31.319
after her.

394
00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:35.400
And so I don't think the school thing is a bad call.

395
00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:37.680
It's not a giant leap, is it?

396
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:38.279
No.

397
00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:41.279
No, she goes from nanny to kind of English teacher.

398
00:19:41.339 --> 00:19:42.779
I think that's kind of okay.

399
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.119
But it's a funny thing.

400
00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:49.140
You know, high concept companions were a feature of the classic

401
00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:53.519
series, but they tended to be, you know, like a short paragraph, a

402
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.700
3 sentence description of the character, and then we cast Matthew

403
00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:00.420
Waterhouse, and he just becomes like Matthew Waterhouse, you

404
00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:00.720
know?

405
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:04.200
And I think that that's what they really do hear.

406
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:05.880
She's the impossible girl.

407
00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:10.200
But the fact is that the whole thing, if it's tied together into a

408
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:14.220
coherent whole, and plenty of people don't agree that it is, but I

409
00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:17.339
think the whole thing is tied together by Jenna's performance.

410
00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.980
Oh, Jenner is a very capable actress.

411
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:25.980
I also note that she's she is very clearly and very competently

412
00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:28.920
portraying the fact that she desperately wants to get out there.

413
00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:29.519
Yeah.

414
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.900
And as soon as this new space mystery happens, She's like, 0 yeah

415
00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:35.880
this is right up my wheelhouse.

416
00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:40.019
I quite like that they kind of portray Clara as an addict, really.

417
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.839
I mean, that's sort of an arc across series 8, but it's especially

418
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:43.500
clear here.

419
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.859
Her sneaking off to phone the doctor or something is like sneaking

420
00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:48.480
off to have a quick cigarette or something.

421
00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:49.319
Yeah, yeah.

422
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:54.720
I do like, though, the bit at the end where they make the decision

423
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.000
like Danny and Clara make a different decision.

424
00:20:57.059 --> 00:21:01.380
Danny goes off with the kids, making sure that they get home.

425
00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:05.339
And he does kind of give her permission, not that she needs it, but

426
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:09.059
he's okay with her decision to go and watch the space thing.

427
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:13.019
That was the bit Kevin, where he talks about Bradley saying

428
00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:17.519
pleases, you know, as big a miracle as anything that she's going

429
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.200
to see up in space.

430
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:23.700
And so we cut to her and the doctor hovering in space watching the

431
00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:24.839
solar flare land.

432
00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:29.519
There's a great line there from Danny, which is, I don't want to

433
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:30.359
see more things.

434
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.059
I want to see the things that are in front of me more clearly.

435
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:33.839
Yeah.

436
00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:34.680
Yeah.

437
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.539
It's funny.

438
00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:39.420
We keep mentioning the caretaker in this episode because wasn't

439
00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:42.480
one of Gareth Roberts' real missions with Doctor Who for all his

440
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.259
flaws to try and normalise the perspectives of people who don't

441
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:49.500
want to go on zany space adventures, but are happy with the lives

442
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:50.099
they live in here.

443
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:54.779
I feel like Danny is a better articulated version of that by a

444
00:21:54.779 --> 00:21:58.559
writer with more complex understandings of the world, I might

445
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:58.799
say.

446
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:02.940
Yeah, so James Corden's character, for instance, in the lodger, is

447
00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:05.640
someone who can't see the point of Paris, who would never travel

448
00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:09.480
with a doctor, and that's an important sort of character beard.

449
00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:13.680
I just think everyone in the caretaker is just in unpleasant

450
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:14.160
mode.

451
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:19.200
And I just think neither the doctor nor Danny come across well

452
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:21.299
because they're kind of fighting over Clara.

453
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.319
And I think part of the problem there is, it's saying, yes, we

454
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.200
don't need someone to be obsessed with all the space reasons, but

455
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:31.319
it doesn't really say, why should they be so excited about Earth

456
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.799
beyond Earth is mundane and we live here.

457
00:22:34.859 --> 00:22:38.460
Here and in the forest of the night, it genuinely presents Earth

458
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:41.940
as a space full of wonder, not just with the kids, but with the

459
00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:43.259
forest itself.

460
00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.539
It's saying the earth is a remarkable place.

461
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:47.400
Yeah, yeah.

462
00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:51.720
Let's talk about the forest.

463
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.880
There's a great line that actually gets whispered, I think, is an

464
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:01.920
unfortunate directoral choice, but it's when the glowing tree

465
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:07.140
spirits, shall we call them, say, we are the grass that grows over

466
00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:08.160
mass graves.

467
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.400
After your wars are over, we will still be here.

468
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:13.019
We are the life that prevails.

469
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:16.500
We were here before you and we will be here after you.

470
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:20.039
It's presented as being bigger than the doctor, isn't it?

471
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:25.500
The forest is older and will outlast the doctor.

472
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.740
As scripted, they are called the here, apparently.

473
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:29.640
Okay.

474
00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:30.480
The year.

475
00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:31.019
They are here.

476
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:32.039
Yeah, okay.

477
00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:32.819
Okay.

478
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:37.619
I think like what it says about the forest, like the Orvalds, you

479
00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:41.339
know, the forest that we have in our imaginations, and it's a

480
00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:45.960
particular European thing, I think, that idea that the forest is

481
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:50.160
the original environment in Europe, the one that we've cut down in

482
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.220
order to kind of make lives for ourselves.

483
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:58.200
So we have this sort of strange relationship with the forest and

484
00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.660
it's something that we're frightened of.

485
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:06.000
And that seems like a sort of primal hardwired instinct, the same

486
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.779
way that we seem to be just naturally afraid of the dark.

487
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.380
We're afraid of forests as well, as if that was a sort of

488
00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:16.980
terrifying environment back when we were kind of prey animals or

489
00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:17.279
something.

490
00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:19.799
Well, it was full of wolves, isn't it?

491
00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:20.640
And it is full of wolves.

492
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:21.779
And brothers grim.

493
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:22.380
Yes.

494
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:27.539
And gingerbread houses, all of which get kind of referenced.

495
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:32.099
And I also like that in the end, where the forest is sort of

496
00:24:32.099 --> 00:24:35.400
explicitly something that comes again and again, and we forget

497
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:39.839
there's beautiful lines about why we forget, like, if we forgot

498
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.539
the pain, we'd stop having wars and stop having babies.

499
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:48.839
It's just these incredible lines about human psychology and the

500
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:53.339
way we deal with these fears, these primal urges that I think

501
00:24:53.339 --> 00:24:58.140
makes this episode far more interesting than pretty much any other

502
00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:00.480
era is generally regarded as worst episodes.

503
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.720
Like, there is so much to unpack here, even if it doesn't work for

504
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:03.960
people.

505
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:09.480
I think Doctor Who has a problem with the present day, and it was

506
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.359
a problem that it didn't have in the classic series because it

507
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:16.019
couldn't afford to do large scale events that everyone in the

508
00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:16.980
world noticed.

509
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:20.400
So when the aliens landed, they landed somewhere in the home

510
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:24.359
counties and, you know, presumably a D notice was put out and no

511
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:26.039
one ever found out about it.

512
00:25:26.099 --> 00:25:30.720
And Doctor Who, when it comes back, decides rightly, straight with

513
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:34.380
aliens of London, that an alien invasion is going to be a big

514
00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:36.539
public event that we all watch on the news.

515
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.759
We have our very 1st news stories about an alien invasion in

516
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.539
aliens of London, and we have the forest being covered by the

517
00:25:45.539 --> 00:25:49.500
world's news media as well, even though none of our characters are

518
00:25:49.500 --> 00:25:50.819
sitting watching the telly.

519
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.019
We still get to see it.

520
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.000
And then you've got the problem.

521
00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:57.720
Well, then Doctor Who stops being set in our world, because Doctor

522
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:01.319
Who is now set in a world where lots of public alien invasions

523
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:03.180
happen and we all know about aliens.

524
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.460
And I don't think Russell ever managed to kind of square the

525
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:06.480
circle on that one.

526
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:10.740
And I think that Moffatt's instinct is to just ignore it.

527
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:16.140
And here, I think the fact that cultural voice hangs a hat on it

528
00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:20.759
and then uses it as a launching point to talk about the way that

529
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:26.279
we forget, the way that we get past terrible events, the way that

530
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:27.119
we live through them all.

531
00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:31.500
You remember the bit where the TV, the person on the TV says that

532
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.660
we should all just stay in our homes?

533
00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:38.940
And I couldn't help thinking about the pandemic, you know, that we

534
00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:44.579
all went through this thing, and for most of us, at least now, I

535
00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:47.279
think it's largely in the past.

536
00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:52.019
And I find myself struggling to remember the sort of 105 days or

537
00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:56.880
however long it was that we were locked up at home in 2021.

538
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.380
Longer if you were in Melbourne.

539
00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.759
Yes, yeah, yeah.

540
00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:01.859
You know, that we do forget.

541
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:03.299
We really properly do forget.

542
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.940
And I love the choice of wars and babies as well.

543
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:08.400
From one extreme to the other.

544
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:11.400
Well, yeah, but there's also like a male pastime that

545
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.539
overwhelmingly in history wars have been fought by men, and then

546
00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:20.279
babies, you know, suddenly we're women now as well, and women

547
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.579
forget what childbirth's like because they would never, ever do it

548
00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:24.359
again. otherwise.

549
00:27:24.420 --> 00:27:27.599
It is really terrific staff, I think.

550
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:32.220
The writer gives a summation of that in his theme, I would think

551
00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:35.400
of the episode, which is fear a little bit less trust a little bit

552
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:35.579
more.

553
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:36.480
Yeah.

554
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:01.440
Because we mentioned the pandemic, I feel like that's a good segue

555
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:06.240
to probably the most controversial, and perhaps rightly settlement

556
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:10.920
of this, the doctor telling them not to overmedicate children for

557
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.700
psychiatric illness, which I have my own feelings about, which I'd

558
00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:16.559
like to get to, but I'd like to just know what you guys think

559
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:17.339
about it first.

560
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:20.519
In fact, it is one of the major objections that Brendan has

561
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:21.599
towards the episode.

562
00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:26.880
And it's a little bit like a sort of grumpy old man thing.

563
00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:30.000
You know, all the children are taking medication these days. blah

564
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:30.599
blah, blah.

565
00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:31.559
Isn't that terrible?

566
00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:33.299
Why can't we allow them to be creative?

567
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:38.519
And I think Sandifus says something as if the story was saying we

568
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:42.480
would have medicated Blake, William Blake, and we would never have

569
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:46.680
got any of his literary or artistic works as a result.

570
00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:49.140
And I think it's unfortunate.

571
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:53.400
Yeah, and I think it is a kind of, it's a grumpy old man kind of

572
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:54.480
thing.

573
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:58.259
And I think because cultural voice and Moffat are both grumpy old

574
00:28:58.259 --> 00:29:01.440
man or grumpy middle-aged man at the time, that's why it makes it

575
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.079
to air, but I think it should perhaps have been rethought.

576
00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:08.640
So like the dramatic equivalent of one of those posters is say

577
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:10.380
this is a natural antidepressant.

578
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.660
Well, and has a forest.

579
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.960
Well, I was kind of thinking that it's a little bit like the

580
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:22.619
abortion stuff in Kilamoon, which I think is not at all intended

581
00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:24.960
by Peter Harness in any way.

582
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:31.619
And I don't think that the episode has presented works as an anti

583
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:34.859
abortion metaphor at all, but it is just one of those things that

584
00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:37.980
perhaps should have been thought about more carefully.

585
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.259
If you take a step back, though.

586
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:44.880
There are quite a lot of environmental factors that are known to

587
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.180
impede children's ability to cope.

588
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.559
And I think the problem is Maeve is clearly coded as someone with

589
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.680
more mental health issues than the other children.

590
00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:00.539
So we all look at it and go, well, perhaps she does really need

591
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:01.019
it.

592
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:05.940
So it becomes harder to justify the author's choice to suggest

593
00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:10.079
that she doesn't just because of the spirits around her.

594
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:14.940
But when you to look at the other children, you might make the

595
00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:18.359
discussion a bit easier because stepping back into the queer

596
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.500
perspective, you've got the question about, well, you don't fit in

597
00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:26.700
with society, you're deviant, we've got this medication over here

598
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:28.380
that will stop you being deviant.

599
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:29.339
Is that a good thing?

600
00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:31.319
Yeah.

601
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:36.480
But I think given the context of the discussion and the fact that

602
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:40.259
people of a certain age are likely to kind of say that the younger

603
00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:44.039
generation is overmedicate it, that we end up falling down on that

604
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:45.539
side of a debate.

605
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:50.039
So for me, it's a very complex one because, like I mentioned, as a

606
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:52.859
kid, I was going through a lot of groups like that because I am

607
00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:57.720
very ADHD and probably around the time this episode 1st aired, I

608
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.660
would have been, I think, probably just starting college or

609
00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:03.240
finishing up high school and wrestling with the decision of

610
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:07.680
whether I wanted to stay on medication because on the one hand, it

611
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:10.799
really did help me fit certain needs of society.

612
00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.920
But on the other hand, it did feel like losing a part of myself.

613
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:17.339
And I am blessed in that it's a manageable condition without

614
00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:18.119
medication.

615
00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:21.059
It's not, for example, schizophrenia or something like that, which

616
00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:24.480
I think what a lot of people object to in this episode saying, well

617
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:26.579
there's some conditions where you do need to be medicated because

618
00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:27.779
otherwise you will not be healthy.

619
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:33.720
But I do think there is also truth in saying, maybe listen to

620
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.440
children and hear their perspective on it before jumping to those

621
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:37.920
decisions.

622
00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:41.400
It's a big, it's a conversation bigger than Doctor Who is the

623
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:41.640
problem.

624
00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:45.059
There's not space in an episode about trees taking over the earth

625
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:47.759
to have an honest conversation about mental health.

626
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:48.960
Yeah.

627
00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:52.619
I mean, there are conditions, the symptoms of which seem to be a

628
00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:55.859
list of things that annoy teachers when they're trying to run a

629
00:31:55.859 --> 00:31:56.940
class, you know.

630
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:02.220
So like, okay, maybe there is actually room for a debate here, but

631
00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:05.099
I think you're right, Kevin, it's a little bit too hit and run.

632
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:09.539
It doesn't seem to be aware of the implications and there isn't

633
00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:12.779
space to address it without distracting us from the main story.

634
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:16.920
One of my friends who was a special needs teacher had a simple

635
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:19.799
rule of thumb that she conveyed, which was, you could tell the

636
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.880
children who needed the medication, because they would be happier

637
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.299
and more able to cope after they'd had it.

638
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:32.039
Whereas those who were just terrible after the medication were

639
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:34.200
just badly behave children.

640
00:32:35.099 --> 00:32:36.900
Like Bradley.

641
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.380
Can I mention the other thing that Brendan doesn't like?

642
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.900
I'm sub-tweeting, but it's not sub-tweeting.

643
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:44.759
Not sub-tweeting, I'm mentioning him by name.

644
00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:47.099
I hope I'm not miscaracterizing what he thinks.

645
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:55.559
But given the issue of climate change, which does come up, if

646
00:32:55.559 --> 00:33:00.059
you've got a magical forest that appears and solves environmental

647
00:33:00.059 --> 00:33:05.640
problems, is that discouraging us from doing anything about it?

648
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.720
Are we in sort of Gaia hypothesis territory where nature kind of

649
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:10.920
heals itself?

650
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.480
I think not for me, just because I can't imagine anybody watching

651
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:19.200
this episode thinking, yes, the trees will absolutely come and

652
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:20.700
protect us when things go wrong.

653
00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:28.740
Or is it like, yeah, we're doing that to the trees, they're not

654
00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:31.140
going to help us, whereas they're trying to protect the planet.

655
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.240
Well, I mean, the trees do that.

656
00:33:33.299 --> 00:33:37.440
You know, the special thing that they do overnight. is just a very

657
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.019
special exaggerated version of what they do anyway.

658
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:44.940
One of the things that the trees do is they make the planet

659
00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:45.839
habitable.

660
00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:51.539
And you might remember that summer just before the pandemic where

661
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:56.039
all of the forests in the world, including in Australia, just

662
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:58.440
seemed to catch fire one after the other.

663
00:33:58.559 --> 00:33:59.579
Australia.

664
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:00.299
Yeah, yeah.

665
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.039
Like it was incredible.

666
00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:04.500
So the trees do this.

667
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:05.880
That's what the trees do.

668
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:10.139
And because this is absolutely a fairy tale, it's not an

669
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:11.460
environmental drama.

670
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:12.360
It's not a thriller.

671
00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:13.320
It's none of those things.

672
00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:16.860
It's explicitly doing something to the trees like making them

673
00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:21.179
people, giving them souls, giving them purposes and stuff in a way

674
00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:23.519
that is absolutely magical.

675
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:30.239
I think that its aim, and I think it probably succeeds at it, is

676
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:33.239
to make us more concerned about the forests.

677
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:37.079
I thought it was a very clear message, save the treats.

678
00:34:37.139 --> 00:34:38.460
Yeah, well, that's right.

679
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.519
It's the thing that they say that Maeve says over everyone's

680
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:41.760
phone.

681
00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:44.880
They go on about how wonderful trees are and how they produce

682
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.280
oxygen and all of that and all the biosphere.

683
00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:52.860
And it was broadcast in 2014, as the discussions about the Paris

684
00:34:52.860 --> 00:34:56.219
climate accord are being had in the public space.

685
00:34:56.219 --> 00:35:00.659
And I do take it as an absurdist fairy tale, like, you know, the

686
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:01.679
trees aren't going to save us.

687
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:03.659
No. is quite clear to everyone.

688
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:07.739
But it is saying that, you know, we have to save the trees.

689
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:08.760
Otherwise, they can't help us.

690
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:09.780
Yeah, yeah.

691
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.699
I also think in terms of environmental commentary, there is a

692
00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:17.460
theme that comes up repeatedly in this episode, which talk about

693
00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:21.000
the fires reminded me of, catastrophe is the metabolism of the

694
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:21.480
universe.

695
00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:24.900
Things in the world happen with big moments of change.

696
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.000
And I live in California.

697
00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:28.619
We catch fire all the time.

698
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:32.219
Part of my day job is trying to prevent that happening.

699
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:35.760
But the simple fact is, that is how forests reproduce.

700
00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:36.960
They catch fire.

701
00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:40.320
This is an episode about a forest springing up across the earth

702
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:43.440
and catching fire because that's how things propagate.

703
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:47.639
Big moments have changed big catastrophes are part of the natural

704
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:48.599
flow of the world.

705
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:54.000
I mean, yes, humans are causing a unprecedented catastrophe that

706
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:57.300
the earth is not prepared to deal with, but that is how things

707
00:35:57.300 --> 00:35:58.139
progress.

708
00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:02.159
Yeah, I think our situations are fairly similar.

709
00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:06.539
We live in a place where there are regular bush fires and there

710
00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:09.300
have been since before Europeans arrive.

711
00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:15.119
And most of our indigenous plant species evolved, like

712
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:18.599
specifically to take advantage of these bushfires.

713
00:36:18.659 --> 00:36:19.679
Yeah, yeah.

714
00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:22.739
And so I just remember like the summer of 1980 or something and

715
00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:27.360
everything was on fire and we couldn't use the, it was great.

716
00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:29.159
I was staying with a friend who had a pool.

717
00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:31.500
We weren't allowed to have showers, we had to save water, so we

718
00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:34.079
were just hop in the pool so we didn't have to wash.

719
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:38.940
They would be like, and then just months later, you see the

720
00:36:38.940 --> 00:36:44.219
vegetation kind of reclaiming the area that's been devastated.

721
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:48.480
I think the 2019 bushfires really do come into this quite well

722
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:52.019
because what's forgotten in Australia a lot is they started in

723
00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:52.380
August.

724
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:57.119
You know, my parents lived in, um, near Glen Innis, and those

725
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:00.300
forests were on fire since August.

726
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:03.900
People actually had cardiac events and all kinds of things because

727
00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:04.500
of the smoke.

728
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.860
Um, and everyone's just forgotten.

729
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.699
Yeah, yeah. the public consciousness has just moved on.

730
00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:15.059
The issues about the fires just completely forgotten.

731
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:19.019
And now we're all talking about housing prices and the price of

732
00:37:19.019 --> 00:37:19.260
oil.

733
00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:20.159
Yeah.

734
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:22.559
Yeah, and it was kind of COVID, wasn't it?

735
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:23.099
in a way.

736
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:27.480
We just moved on to the next giant catastrophe, but...

737
00:37:27.539 --> 00:37:28.079
Yeah, yeah.

738
00:37:28.139 --> 00:37:31.800
But I mean, if it's burning in August, August is like, what, early

739
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:32.460
spring?

740
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:37.320
Like it's it's certainly not summer and it's not when we expect

741
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.320
that sort of thing to happen because we do have those seasonal

742
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.239
fires in summer.

743
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:43.679
It was extraordinary.

744
00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:48.239
We had the New South Wales government telling us not to go outside

745
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:51.179
because the air quality was so low.

746
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:55.860
So it's a little bit like this and a little bit like the lockdowns

747
00:37:55.860 --> 00:37:57.420
around the pandemic.

748
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:01.320
I wonder if part of the reason the Brits don't get this episode is

749
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.000
because they don't catch fire all the time.

750
00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:05.760
Yeah, maybe that's too wet.

751
00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:18.900
Yeah, so I do think, you know, this episode is being broadcast

752
00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:24.000
into a world of climate change and what it's doing is reminding us

753
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:28.559
of what the trees actually do, which is they help to maintain a

754
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:30.119
habitable environment.

755
00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:32.760
And it's especially targeting kids with that.

756
00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:33.719
It's saying kids.

757
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:35.579
Trees are amazing.

758
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:36.960
This world is amazing.

759
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:37.980
Protect it.

760
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:41.219
Like there's that little class project, protect the trees.

761
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.619
I love that so much.

762
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.179
I really love that.

763
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:48.480
And that is also too, the moment where the doctor kind of embraces

764
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:53.400
the kind of school teacher role, you know, he's been kind of

765
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:55.980
slightly dismissive of Danny looking after the kids.

766
00:38:56.039 --> 00:39:00.300
Clara's looking after the kids as part of her job and that's

767
00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:01.980
something the doctor's not interested in.

768
00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:06.300
He's almost presented as an alternative to her doing her job.

769
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:08.820
But here he sets them a task.

770
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:13.320
And just seeing all of those kids, you know, on the floor of the

771
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:16.860
TARDIS with an exercise book, writing something with a biro, like

772
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:18.480
a speech from Maeve to read.

773
00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:22.139
It's one of the happiest moments, I can remember it, Doctor Who

774
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:22.920
it's just beautiful.

775
00:39:23.579 --> 00:39:27.719
I guess that does also lead if we're talking about Maeve's little

776
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:28.619
speech to the world.

777
00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:31.380
We have to address Anibal Arden.

778
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:32.219
Please come home.

779
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:39.300
I think they ruined the end with that because I think if she'd

780
00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:43.320
just been sitting on the on the steps smoking a cigarette, then it

781
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:44.460
would have been more impactful.

782
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.000
The, like, magical... magical bush.

783
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:49.619
She was hydrangeas all along.

784
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.860
No, standing up with a kind of evil glint in her eyes.

785
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.199
Like, how are we coding this character?

786
00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:01.139
I think that she, I mean, she's a beautiful young woman and but

787
00:40:01.139 --> 00:40:04.380
she does look slightly evil with that smile.

788
00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:10.440
It's clearly the forest giving her back to Maeve and her family

789
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:11.099
isn't it?

790
00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:14.699
I think it is, and it isn't, because I think the other implication

791
00:40:14.699 --> 00:40:18.179
and this episode wants to work both on the magical level and the

792
00:40:18.179 --> 00:40:22.320
real emotional level is Maeve calls literally everybody on the

793
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:24.780
entire planet and says, please come home.

794
00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:29.340
I'm pretty sure the implication is she heard that and came home

795
00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:32.340
but I think because it tries to have both ways and because I think

796
00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:34.920
it's the one moment in the episode where the direction really lets

797
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:38.699
it down, it comes off like she's just magically summoned out of a

798
00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:38.940
bush.

799
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:43.079
I can see why that's a step too far for people. hiding in the

800
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:43.320
bush.

801
00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:46.980
Her mother does complain that the next door neighbours have

802
00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:49.920
planted those hydrangeas and she initially thinks that that's

803
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:52.800
what's kind of blocking the door because the hydrangeas have got

804
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:53.820
out of control.

805
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:57.719
So the hydrangeas are kind of telegraphed early on.

806
00:40:57.780 --> 00:41:02.099
I mean, on the fantastical level on the fairy tale level.

807
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.739
She was lost in the forest.

808
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:06.119
Yeah, yeah maybe.

809
00:41:06.179 --> 00:41:06.840
Yeah, yeah.

810
00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:11.280
And so the whole, yes, she's been given back by the forest thing

811
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.880
works because it's, you know, she was, she was a little girl lost

812
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:18.900
in the woods, like on a figurative and psychological level

813
00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:19.139
perhaps.

814
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:19.679
I don't know.

815
00:41:19.739 --> 00:41:22.920
I think those levels were probably intended.

816
00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:25.320
I also think they don't really land.

817
00:41:25.380 --> 00:41:28.199
It's definitely the weakest scene in the episode and I think

818
00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.840
probably the 1st thing people think of when they hate this

819
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:31.139
episode.

820
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.679
It's a very strange ending and the final shot is very strange, I

821
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:37.320
think, the final shot of Annabelle's face is super odd.

822
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:41.940
Also, just, as a scene feels kind of tacked on, like, the episode

823
00:41:41.940 --> 00:41:46.440
already has so many good conclusions that ending on that note

824
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:49.920
feels kind of alienating, like, why are we going back to this?

825
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:55.500
Yeah, I guess, though, we're told that the reason that Maeve is

826
00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:59.820
able to communicate with the trees is because she's lost Annabelle

827
00:41:59.820 --> 00:42:06.000
and Ruby, Ruby's assessment of Maeve, where it's, for God's sake

828
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:06.960
give her a medication.

829
00:42:07.019 --> 00:42:08.219
You know, she's barely functioning.

830
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.440
She's such a hilarious drama queen about it.

831
00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:11.940
It's really funny.

832
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.599
And so the reason that she can communicate with the trees is

833
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.260
because she has lost someone and she's always on the lookout for

834
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:22.739
that person and because she's always on the lookout, she's more

835
00:42:22.739 --> 00:42:24.059
sensitive to seeing things.

836
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.000
And I thought that that was a kind of beautiful thing for the

837
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:27.780
doctor to say.

838
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:32.099
Yeah, like, so I thought that worked really well as an observation

839
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:35.280
and particularly well coming from the doctor.

840
00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:38.099
And so I think we do have to get Annabelle back.

841
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.400
If Annabelle's so important, then she has to come back at the end

842
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:41.639
I think.

843
00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:44.400
Maybe it's just not pulled off.

844
00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:46.980
Maybe it's that scene doesn't quite work.

845
00:42:51.659 --> 00:42:53.760
I tell you what I did like.

846
00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:56.820
I did like, you know, there's a few references to things that are

847
00:42:56.820 --> 00:42:58.019
happening throughout the series.

848
00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:01.440
And does Movak get a writing credit on this one?

849
00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:02.099
No.

850
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:02.820
No.

851
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:05.460
But his hand's clearly in it, isn't it?

852
00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:09.179
Because when Moffa gets a writing credit, it's almost always, I

853
00:43:09.179 --> 00:43:12.599
think, for the Danny and Clara stuff.

854
00:43:12.659 --> 00:43:17.039
But the callback to Mummy on the Orient Express, the you breathe

855
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:18.480
our air line.

856
00:43:18.539 --> 00:43:22.500
You know, when the doctor says, I'm going to stay and the

857
00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:24.960
references to time heist and stuff like that.

858
00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:28.440
It all does a very good job of pulling the season together and

859
00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:33.179
making it cohere in episode 11 before we launch into the finale.

860
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:38.519
I quite love that scene of Clara and the doctor talking out

861
00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:41.940
whether to use the TARDIS as an ark to save the children, whether

862
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:43.320
Clara will stay or go.

863
00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:46.739
I think everything about that just really sings.

864
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.760
What's so cool about this episode for me is it's not actually a

865
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:54.360
Doctor Who plot. a catastrophe happens and it's about a bunch of

866
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:56.460
people emotionally responding to it.

867
00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:02.039
And that ending really feels like the climax to that where Clara

868
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:06.300
realises, yes, she wants to travel, but she doesn't completely

869
00:44:06.300 --> 00:44:07.739
want to be the doctor.

870
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:09.719
She doesn't want to be the last of her kind.

871
00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:12.420
She still has a reason she wants to come back home.

872
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:14.159
I thought that was really beautiful.

873
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:16.739
Her reluctance to say that.

874
00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:21.539
And I think we know that she's going to say I don't want to be the

875
00:44:21.539 --> 00:44:22.380
only one left.

876
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.139
I don't want to be the last of my kind.

877
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:30.599
And her reluctance to say that because it's, I don't want to be

878
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:31.559
like you, doctor.

879
00:44:31.619 --> 00:44:33.179
I don't want to be like you.

880
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:36.420
I don't want to experience the terrible things you've

881
00:44:36.420 --> 00:44:37.019
experienced.

882
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.380
I don't want it to sit in my heart the way it sits in your heart.

883
00:44:40.500 --> 00:44:42.420
I think that's really, really good.

884
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:47.219
And I love the, you know, the I walk your earth.

885
00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:48.300
I breathe your air.

886
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:50.880
And when she says, you're welcome.

887
00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:55.440
And that let the human race save you for once.

888
00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:58.199
Like, I think the amazing thing about this story.

889
00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:00.059
It's like what you say, Kevin.

890
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:01.260
There's no villain.

891
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:02.880
There's nothing alien.

892
00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:06.900
It is just something said on earth where earth things are

893
00:45:06.900 --> 00:45:07.380
happening.

894
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:11.940
So it's able to just concentrate on putting the characters in

895
00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:13.980
different situations and seeing how they react.

896
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:18.000
And just having it escalate to the point where everyone's going to

897
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:18.840
die.

898
00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:22.320
You know, that we just assume that everyone's going to die because

899
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:26.159
what the forests have called down the, you know, are calling down

900
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:27.599
this solar flare.

901
00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:29.880
I just think that's amazing.

902
00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:32.639
Like suddenly we're in a situation where everyone's going to die

903
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:35.699
and we have to have the doctor and Clara react to that.

904
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:39.599
And also it has the biggest callback of all, and it's the climax

905
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:39.960
of that.

906
00:45:40.019 --> 00:45:43.800
The, uh, I think the 1st time we hear repeated from the day of the

907
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:45.960
doctor, home the long way around.

908
00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:46.980
Yeah.

909
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:51.179
Like, that is such a big moment and putting it at the end of this

910
00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:56.219
standalone, odd episode is, I think, really weighty because the

911
00:45:56.219 --> 00:45:58.980
doctor has just dealt with the guilt of being the last of his

912
00:45:58.980 --> 00:45:59.280
kind.

913
00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:04.019
He has just resolved that, and that's the last piece left of it.

914
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:07.079
So dealing with that in the conversation with Clara about what

915
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:10.920
that does to him and what that would do to her is, I think, such a

916
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:12.119
beautiful way of addressing it.

917
00:46:12.179 --> 00:46:15.900
It doesn't need to be this big space, pyrotechnics, galifrayan

918
00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:16.980
epic that people wanted.

919
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:20.039
It needs to be a drama about how the doctor's feeling.

920
00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:21.239
Yeah.

921
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:25.320
I also quite like the fact that they seem to have written the

922
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:28.559
doctor to embrace what is a bit neurodivergent.

923
00:46:28.619 --> 00:46:30.719
At the start of Capaldi Zero.

924
00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:33.360
He clearly is having trouble with emotional intelligence and

925
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:34.260
social interaction.

926
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:37.380
He's clearly got face blindness where he's, you know, which ones

927
00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:41.880
may, which ones may, and he's starting to grow a little bit more

928
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:46.139
in understanding himself and other people, but he's still clearly

929
00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:51.119
quite affectionate and friendly and a real person in wanting Clara

930
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:54.780
to come with him, but he also is being quite understanding and

931
00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:59.760
saying, well, I understand that you don't want to, because the

932
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:03.539
horror of being the last of your kind is quite. terrible.

933
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:08.940
But there's still that thing through this whole season where he's

934
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.960
being a person who is neurodivergent.

935
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:17.820
And also, speaking of the neurodiversions, I think that putting

936
00:47:17.820 --> 00:47:20.820
him with a bunch of neurodivergent kids is a definite choice

937
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:23.400
because there are a lot of scenes where instead of talking to

938
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:26.400
Danny and Clara at their level, he's at the same level as the

939
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:26.639
kids.

940
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:29.820
Like, one of my favourite lines in this episode is when they're

941
00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:31.619
talking about, like, where's Maeve?

942
00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:34.619
and Ruby's like, oh, my God, Maeve's dead, and the doctor

943
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:35.340
screams.

944
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.400
So good.

945
00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:43.199
Ruby is so great.

946
00:48:08.579 --> 00:48:11.940
Well, this is what that's all we have time for this week.

947
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.719
We'll be back next week for an extremely unwelcome revelation

948
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:18.000
about death in dark water.

949
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:21.960
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

950
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:25.559
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

951
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:28.559
com, where you'll find links to our accounts, on Facebook, Twitter

952
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.519
and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcast, Bondfinger

953
00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:36.780
Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

954
00:48:37.380 --> 00:48:42.300
Until next time, please don't chop, spray, or harm the trees.

955
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:43.139
They're here to help.

956
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.840
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

957
00:48:45.900 --> 00:48:46.800
Good night.

958
00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:47.699
Good night.

959
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:48.719
Good night.

960
00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:56.340
That was Flightthrough Entirety.

961
00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:59.039
Sorry, Nathan Bottomley, Kevin Bernard, Matthew Hounsell and James

962
00:48:59.039 --> 00:48:59.820
Selwood.

963
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:01.860
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam.

964
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:05.639
This episode, she was the hydrangeas all along, was recorded on

965
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:09.239
the 6th of May 2023 and released on the 18th of June.

966
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:13.440
The most striking thing about this era of Doctor Who is the

967
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.480
deplorable lack of space corridors.

968
00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:17.039
But please don't worry.

969
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:21.059
Episode 271, a flight through entirety to be released later this

970
00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:25.260
year, contains one of the all-time classics of the genre, and

971
00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:27.059
we're confident that you're going to love it.

972
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:35.039
Has anyone on this season of FT mentioned how good the 12th

973
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:36.000
doctor's theme is?

974
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:37.139
Yes.

975
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:39.000
Yeah.

976
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.320
Yeah, it's really great.

977
00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:44.400
And we do also, we do have to, of course, mention as as an insert

978
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:48.000
into the episode, but not, you know, in any way related to the

979
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.559
episode is missy.

980
00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:53.400
Yes, and she goes, I love surprises.

981
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:55.380
Tell your face, Michelle.

982
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:58.860
No, because she's lying. that's the thing.

983
00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:03.539
But that's sort of wonderful thing where she's kind of watching

984
00:50:03.539 --> 00:50:05.039
the season along with this.

985
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:05.820
Yes, yeah.

986
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:07.739
We mentioned that in deep breath.

987
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:11.219
She's watching deep breath and so she doesn't know whether the

988
00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:13.860
half-faced man has been pushed out of the restaurant by the doctor

989
00:50:13.860 --> 00:50:16.860
because we didn't get to see that in the episode.

990
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.699
And so when the half-ace man turns up in the nether spear, she's

991
00:50:20.699 --> 00:50:24.239
unable to determine exactly how he got there, although she

992
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:28.440
suspects that the doctor did push him out of the restaurant, which

993
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:29.340
is the correct answer.

994
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:32.280
She's just sitting there with her time-spaced visualiser.

995
00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:33.659
Yes, yeah.

996
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:36.059
I mean, it's terribly funny too.

997
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:41.039
It's terribly funny to imagine the master watching the doctor's

998
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:45.179
adventures and seeing the earth get about to be destroyed by a

999
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:49.019
forest before she can get around to enacting her plan.

1000
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:51.900
It's like, imagine the breakdown.

1001
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:53.340
She would have had it. if it went through.

1002
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:55.679
Humanity was sorted out.

1003
00:50:57.539 --> 00:51:01.619
Look, I mean, I just think, so this is the last time she just

1004
00:51:01.619 --> 00:51:06.659
appears and from now on, she'll be kind of the doctor's antagonist

1005
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:07.380
when she turns up.

1006
00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:12.360
I just think Michelle Gomez is absolutely brilliant and that this

1007
00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:16.980
arc with her has been just tremendously entertaining.

1008
00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:17.760
So good.

1009
00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:21.780
If I remember correctly, also all the little inserts from her

1010
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:23.400
weren't they directed by Rachel Talloway?

1011
00:51:23.460 --> 00:51:28.860
No, she directed the ones in the 1st 2 episodes.

1012
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:29.760
Okay.

1013
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:30.780
Who directed the first?

1014
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:32.760
We talked about this actually.

1015
00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:36.300
She just directed some in a few early episodes where the director

1016
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:39.000
himself wasn't available to shoot them.

1017
00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:43.199
But yes, she directed the ones in Into the Dalek and deep breath.

1018
00:51:43.260 --> 00:51:48.119
Yes, this episode's ones are actually recorded by the director of

1019
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:51.659
this episode, but were recorded before the rest the episode.

1020
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:52.139
Right.

1021
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:53.880
Okay. interesting.

1022
00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:57.840
Because I did want to mention just in terms of both Rachel Talalay

1023
00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:58.920
and Shree Folkson.

1024
00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:03.360
That's the 1st time we've really had women direct the Maffa era

1025
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:06.719
since I think there was like one women in one woman in like series

1026
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:10.199
5 or something, but it's something that he really did not make

1027
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:13.079
enough of an effort in, and that there was really a big

1028
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:17.579
conversation around the Moffat era and the role of women writing

1029
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:18.480
and directing.

1030
00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:21.659
And series 8 is the 1st time you really see him start to make a

1031
00:52:21.659 --> 00:52:23.699
course correction and emphasise that.

1032
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:25.739
And I think it really pays off.

1033
00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:29.219
These are 2 of, 2 of the best directors of series 8 right there.

1034
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:30.539
Yeah.

1035
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:35.460
I think, you know, I think that Tubinal is the one who kind of

1036
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:38.400
deserves the credit for finally getting this ride.

1037
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:44.340
Moffatt is the sort of person who learns from his mistakes and

1038
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:48.599
does grow, I think, during his run.

1039
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:51.360
And so he is starting to work towards it.

1040
00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:55.320
And he's also starting to work towards the idea of a female doctor

1041
00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:58.619
obviously, with Missy, and with some of the stuff at the end of

1042
00:52:58.619 --> 00:52:59.219
series 10.

1043
00:52:59.579 --> 00:53:03.780
But it does take Cheap Mill to come in, determined to kind of get

1044
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:06.599
a more diverse team of directors and a more diverse team of

1045
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:07.260
writers.

1046
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.360
And so he gets that right finally.

1047
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:13.380
And we're waiting over the next few months to see how Russell

1048
00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:15.900
takes that even further in all likelihood.

1049
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:18.000
Here's a question for you all.

1050
00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:18.840
Yep.

1051
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:24.239
If this had been directed by someone else, do you think it would

1052
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:25.320
have been a lesser episode?

1053
00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:27.719
Do you think her direction makes it?

1054
00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:36.480
I think she manages successfully to portray the to create this

1055
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:36.780
world.

1056
00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.119
I think she manages to create this world really well.

1057
00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:43.440
And I think that some of the technical stuff like getting the

1058
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:50.159
tiger and getting the wolves and stuff is quite well.

1059
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:52.139
They were filmed specially.

1060
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:57.179
They weren't, you know, stock footage, um, cut into the episode.

1061
00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:00.119
It's impossible not to think of the arc, isn't it?

1062
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:01.440
Yeah.

1063
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:05.760
And you wonder at some point, at some points, whether they are

1064
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:08.639
actually like rotoscope, did you?

1065
00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:12.239
I mean, there's that one thing where we have a shot of Maeve and

1066
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:16.380
there's a sort of dark patch in the foliage behind her and then

1067
00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:20.340
the wolves appear in that and that's very stylised and stuff, but

1068
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:23.639
I think that's perfectly reasonable given the sort of story that

1069
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:24.300
we're telling.

1070
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:26.760
Like the Gamork in never-ending story.

1071
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:28.619
Anyway.

1072
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:32.940
I think she does do very well directing the children and things

1073
00:54:32.940 --> 00:54:35.039
like her shots, shot choice.

1074
00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:36.119
Her angle choice.

1075
00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:39.059
When they're doing the school experiment, how that's shot from

1076
00:54:39.059 --> 00:54:40.260
under the Tartar console.

1077
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:41.219
Yeah, yeah.

1078
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:43.920
And across at them, not at the teachers looking at them.

1079
00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:45.119
Yeah, yeah.

1080
00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:49.619
Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's been a while since we've had an

1081
00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:53.039
episode that actually properly centres children and I think they

1082
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:53.760
pull it off.

1083
00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:57.300
They actually managed to do it and it could so easily go wrong.

1084
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:02.699
Anything else?

1085
00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:06.780
This will all be sort of cut together into a thing and I'll make

1086
00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:08.340
sure that it ends at...

1087
00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:10.500
I've got a thing for your art show.

1088
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.679
I just love the idea of Missy sitting at a desk with a laptop

1089
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:17.880
watching Doctor Who on Blu-ray going, that didn't happen.

1090
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:20.099
That's implausible.

1091
00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:23.460
Look at those sets wobbly.

1092
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:28.079
Missy likes her hard science fiction when it starts to be evil

1093
00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:28.500
trees.

1094
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:30.659
She just gets a little impatient because she's the only one

1095
00:55:30.659 --> 00:55:32.159
allowed to do the ridiculous plots.

1096
00:55:32.219 --> 00:55:34.619
And it turns out to be good trees.

1097
00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:36.000
She's really much worse.

1098
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:37.559
All right.

1099
00:55:37.619 --> 00:55:38.820
What do you think?

1100
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:39.659
I think we finish it off.