WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:39:50 1 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:50.759 Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's thinking of closing down its Twitter account completely and moving over to Tree Facebook. 2 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:52.560 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:52.619 --> 00:00:53.759 I'm James. 4 00:00:53.820 --> 00:00:54.719 I'm Matthew. 5 00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:55.920 I'm Kevin. 6 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.020 Well, the moon's an egg. 7 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:05.519 Time can be rewritten, and for just one Saturday night in 2014, an unexpected forest engulfed the entire Earth. 8 00:01:05.579 --> 00:01:13.140 Let's see how the Coal Hill year 8 gifted and talented group cope with this as we discuss in the forest of the night. 9 00:01:32.099 --> 00:01:38.040 So, Brendan's not here this week because James, he refused to do this episode, is that right? 10 00:01:38.099 --> 00:01:44.760 I think in his words, it was anything, but... for the night. 11 00:01:44.819 --> 00:01:57.959 And I think that Peter as well was saying some stuff this week about how he thinks it's a premise that the show can't possibly pull off that it's a little bit too ambitious as an idea. 12 00:01:58.019 --> 00:02:01.260 And so it never really, really looks real. 13 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:04.439 But I have to say that I'm not convinced about that. 14 00:02:04.500 --> 00:02:07.680 Oh my god, a Doctor Who episode that doesn't look real. 15 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:09.960 Yeah, yeah, well, there's that. 16 00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:10.319 Yes. 17 00:02:11.460 --> 00:02:14.520 Is it even trying to look real as the thing? 18 00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:22.139 It's out of the gate saying, we are doing Doctor Who is a fairy tale and playing with the communal myth idea. 19 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:24.840 So just set it in a forest, not a couple bits of set dressing. 20 00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:26.520 That's all you actually need to convey that idea. 21 00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:42.120 It's that really funny line from Capoldi where he says it's like the new forest only newer because, you know, Doctor Who, you know, frequently went to the new forest to record forest scenes back in the day, as did Blake 7. 22 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:44.219 So this is the new forest only newer. 23 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:55.979 I have to say that close up, it looks like a forest with a few things in it, and I think that the long shot, the computer generated long shot, is actually pretty good and does sell it. 24 00:02:56.099 --> 00:02:56.400 Yeah. 25 00:02:56.460 --> 00:02:57.180 Yeah. 26 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:58.560 I think it sells the premise. 27 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:03.780 I would say the shots of the globe where the ocean is also green were a little confusing. 28 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:09.060 The shots of London skyline throughout the episode, I think, are gorgeous. 29 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:22.199 Like, there's those beautiful, like, amber, gold coloured shots at the end of sunset over London as the trees sort of evaporate away, where it's just, like, I know people are always posting special effects shots at the Chip Nolan saying, this is the best doctor who ever looked. 30 00:03:22.259 --> 00:03:24.659 And I'm just looking at these effects shots saying, what's the difference? 31 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:26.039 Yeah. 32 00:03:26.099 --> 00:03:26.759 Yeah. 33 00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:41.280 I think that for some people there is a kind of level of realism that Doctor Who kind of needs to keep to, and it's, I think, the baseline level of realism that's kind of set during the classic series, so you can have faster than light travel. 34 00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:45.060 You can have people in rubber outfits being monsters and stuff. 35 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:52.979 But when the moon's an egg or when a forest grows up overnight, that's a little bit too far for them. 36 00:03:52.979 --> 00:03:57.780 And I don't know what those people think they're watching. 37 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:01.979 I clearly haven't seen any of the Sylvester McCoy era. 38 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:02.460 Yeah, yeah. 39 00:04:02.460 --> 00:04:03.419 Or a mind robber. 40 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:04.439 If your argument. 41 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:05.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 42 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:10.979 If your argument is this Doctor Who story. stretches the bounds of my credulity. 43 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:11.520 Yes. 44 00:04:11.819 --> 00:04:13.199 What? 45 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:17.399 What have you been watching the last few decades? 46 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:25.560 Yeah, I think it's telling a particular kind of story and this is the Moffat approach to Doctor Who is a self-conscious thing about storytelling. 47 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:35.100 And as you said, Kevin, the forest is where fairy tales are set, and the forest is, as the episode itself says, a source of primal fear. 48 00:04:35.699 --> 00:04:38.759 Which is why it's got the wolves and the tiger. 49 00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:39.959 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 50 00:04:40.019 --> 00:04:42.000 Well, I think it has the tiger because of Blake. 51 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:42.720 Right. 52 00:04:42.779 --> 00:04:46.199 Because we needed one burning bright in the forest of the night. 53 00:04:46.259 --> 00:04:47.459 It's where the title comes from. 54 00:04:47.459 --> 00:04:53.220 Tommy reads that poem out, the tiger from songs of innocence and experience. 55 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:57.540 I think it's from Songs of Innocence, in Planet of the Spiders. 56 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:04.019 So the tiger is definitely there for that reason, but the wolf is there because the wolf is what's in the forest. 57 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:08.579 And I just noticed this this meve's wearing a red hood. 58 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:10.259 Red hood, yeah. 59 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:11.160 Yeah, yeah. 60 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:16.019 I'd actually thought when it opened, I assumed it was a take on Little Red Riding Hood. 61 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:17.399 Ah, yes, yeah. 62 00:05:17.459 --> 00:05:22.620 And the doctor does call Clara little Red Riding Hood, I think, at some point during the episode. 63 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.740 It's got that very short story opening, doesn't it? 64 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:32.160 where the little girl turns up in the TARDIS like comes knocking on the door asking for the doctor. 65 00:05:32.220 --> 00:05:40.319 And Frank Cultural Boyce wrote like lots of casualty and stuff like that, but he is also a children's book rider. 66 00:05:40.379 --> 00:05:46.259 He was also suggested to Stephen by RTD. 67 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:52.920 Oh, wow, okay. as a writer because they'd worked together back in the 90s on the soap opera together. 68 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:54.540 And he writes smile. 69 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:55.259 Yes. 70 00:05:55.259 --> 00:05:55.740 Yeah. 71 00:05:55.800 --> 00:06:02.939 Well, yeah, I thought that that opening was really very kind of literary because it goes out of its way to establish Maeve's character. 72 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:06.060 She's someone who's confused, who doesn't understand quite what's going on. 73 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:11.879 There's something special that sets her apart from other people and she has a sort of inability to understand things. 74 00:06:11.939 --> 00:06:19.199 She suggests to the doctor that he goes and asks someone else who understands the TARDIS about why the TARDIS isn't working. 75 00:06:19.259 --> 00:06:23.279 And so that seemed to me to be a very kind of literary way of establishing the character. 76 00:06:23.339 --> 00:06:26.879 And it feels like a very literary way of establishing the whole show. 77 00:06:26.939 --> 00:06:32.399 Like that scene in in of itself, you could show to anybody to be like, this is what Doctor Who is about. 78 00:06:32.459 --> 00:06:42.120 It's got, like, for example, one of the all-time best explanations of how the TARDIS is bigger on the inside saying, like, you know, a bottle of soda is this big and has this much sugar in it. 79 00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:46.560 I totally forgot so many lines in this episode and that is one of the best. 80 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:48.000 It's so good. 81 00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:55.379 They actually say coke and they don't then have to say other, you know, unhealthy or also available. right. 82 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:57.060 Yeah, he didn't say bubble shark. 83 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:00.060 Oh if only. 84 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:01.860 It's really good, isn't it? 85 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.740 It's really great And something that we haven't seen before. 86 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.600 And this is a one off director. 87 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:08.100 She's someone who doesn't come back. 88 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:10.379 Cherie Folksson. 89 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:11.579 Yeah, Cherie Folkeson. 90 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:12.300 She doesn't come back. 91 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:26.100 But she shoots that sequence as they're walking along the kind of, it's not quite a cloister, but that sort of mezzanine in the TARDIS console room, which I think is really dynamic and interesting. 92 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:27.180 Yeah. 93 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:28.920 It's a very good walk and talk. 94 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:29.579 Yeah. 95 00:07:29.939 --> 00:07:32.339 There's a lot of very interesting camera work here. 96 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:50.040 Like, I noticed like a lot of like odd camera angles or even, I think, a bit of fish eye to try and emphasise the difference in size between the adult characters and the children. get really weird camera angles like Capaldi pointing out a child by having his hand in the foreground, just really interest in playing with the scale of contrast between characters. 97 00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:50.639 I loved that. 98 00:07:50.699 --> 00:07:56.639 Well, when the camera comes into the TARDIS, it comes in at Maeve's head high, too, I seem to notice. 99 00:07:56.699 --> 00:08:01.439 So it is absolutely selling what that space looks like to a little child. 100 00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:08.939 And I think Doctor Who has had a kind of fractious relationship with its child actors over the years. 101 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:13.740 I think both Maeve and Ruby, but Maeve particularly. 102 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:15.540 I think they're both great. 103 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.180 I think all of the children in this are very good. 104 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:19.620 Well, it shouldn't be a surprise. 105 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:20.639 Ruby's terribly good. 106 00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:21.540 She's Peppa Pig. 107 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:22.319 Yeah. 108 00:08:22.379 --> 00:08:23.279 Oh, is she? 109 00:08:23.819 --> 00:08:26.399 She played Peppa Pig for 10 years. 110 00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:27.540 Oh my goodness. 111 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:30.899 I mean, they're all adults now, aren't they? 112 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.399 Terrifyingly. 113 00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:37.320 Yeah, wow, I didn't know that. 114 00:08:37.379 --> 00:08:38.159 She's so good. 115 00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:40.080 And she's properly funny. 116 00:08:40.139 --> 00:08:45.899 I've remarked before that this season gets teaching, right? 117 00:08:46.139 --> 00:08:47.820 You know, Moffatt was a teacher. 118 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:53.820 The 1st couple of things he wrote, press gang and chalk a set in schools. 119 00:08:53.879 --> 00:09:00.240 And so this sort of stuff like Clara having a big pile of marking on board the TARDIS. 120 00:09:00.299 --> 00:09:13.080 There's a joke that we say that you shouldn't really start marking the work unless it's travelled to and from home, you know, a couple of times, like to and from school, like wait until it's been in your car for sort of 30 miles and then get round to marking it. 121 00:09:13.139 --> 00:09:19.799 Clearly, Clara's rule is, you know, 300 light years and a couple of centuries and then she'll get round the market. 122 00:09:19.860 --> 00:09:22.559 Which is difficult when you live so close to it. 123 00:09:22.620 --> 00:09:23.700 That's right. 124 00:09:24.059 --> 00:09:26.460 Did you drive backwards? 125 00:09:26.460 --> 00:09:28.259 I have to drive around the block, a fair amount. 126 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:28.559 Yeah. 127 00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:32.460 For about 3 hours in the morning, to get the miles up. 128 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:32.879 Yeah. 129 00:09:32.940 --> 00:09:36.899 And that stuff like the stuff where the kids actually rings really true. 130 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.600 I think it's it's pretty great. 131 00:09:39.659 --> 00:09:42.240 I thought the children were quite well characterised. 132 00:09:42.299 --> 00:09:45.539 Usually children are very poorly characterised in television. 133 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:51.840 They don't seem real, like they seem either too adult or too naive. 134 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:57.960 And I'm not sure that they're year 8, but they certainly pitched as, you know, in that in-between space. 135 00:09:58.019 --> 00:09:58.919 Yeah. 136 00:09:58.980 --> 00:10:00.000 Yeah, I think that's right. 137 00:10:00.059 --> 00:10:02.460 I think because there's a bunch of children. 138 00:10:02.580 --> 00:10:06.779 He does go out of his way to give them different characteristics, I think. 139 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:07.559 So they work. 140 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:10.019 And I just think that little girl who does Maeve. 141 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.440 I think she's probably too young for you, a year age, and I think she's really good. 142 00:10:13.500 --> 00:10:22.200 I love the, um, one of the characters who's standing there saying, um, this is upsetting me a lot and I'm forgetting my anger management. 143 00:10:22.259 --> 00:10:30.539 Well, that's the kid who loses it and storms out of the classroom when he's told to say please to get the other kid's dictionary. 144 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:32.279 I'm forgetting my anger management. 145 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:34.019 Bradley. 146 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.159 I love that at the end. 147 00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:41.700 That's the kid Danny shouts at saying, please, is more interesting and impressive than anything the doctor can show them. 148 00:10:49.139 --> 00:10:56.580 Also, there's references, not just to literature, but to the beginning of the show, It's set in Coal Hill School. 149 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.940 They're talking about students and their strange... 150 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:00.539 Yeah, yeah. 151 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.700 There are flashbacks to those students. 152 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:03.539 Yes. 153 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.740 It's a very conscious reference to an earthly child. 154 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:09.179 And they're not idiots. 155 00:11:09.299 --> 00:11:18.840 Yeah, the children aren't stupid and we discover that it's just called gifted and talented because Clara thinks it makes them feel better about themselves or something, but they aren't stupid. 156 00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:20.580 And in fact, Ruby's really smart. 157 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:23.279 Ruby comes up with quite a lot of stuff. 158 00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:27.600 She's the one who notices the ring in the tree in the museum. 159 00:11:27.659 --> 00:11:28.620 Museum, yeah. 160 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:32.279 Yeah, and then notices that there's no ring in the trees that have grown up overnight. 161 00:11:32.340 --> 00:11:35.100 I think that's really great. 162 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:38.759 I also liked the whole gift and talented angle. 163 00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:56.340 I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated, but it kind of gives the impression that all of these kids are the sort of oddball misfits, like as an ADHD child, it got thrown into a lot of like child support groups like that where they would do like their own little small scale meetings to try and help us deal with all our personality issues and stuff like that. 164 00:11:56.460 --> 00:12:08.759 And I like that those are the kids they chose to star in a Doctor Who episode because like, yeah, those are probably the ones that are going to be, you know, the kids that are gravitating to Doctor Who in the 1st place, the nerdy misfits who just want to escape his TV. 165 00:12:08.820 --> 00:12:10.080 Yeah exactly. 166 00:12:10.139 --> 00:12:12.059 It is it is really good. 167 00:12:12.179 --> 00:12:25.379 I mean, the there are some people who don't like seeing children in Doctor Who, but for me, the fact that there are children in Doctor Who now is the result of the fact that the show is engaging at a deeper level with the real world. 168 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:37.559 So it's not a show that's set in kind of space corridors or set in scientific research bases and things anymore, it's very frequently set in very ordinary places and that's where children are. 169 00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:40.259 I totally agree with you on that point. 170 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:48.720 It's very much a pert we kind of concept of the show. that, you know, weird things happening in the real world, in the real world. 171 00:12:48.779 --> 00:12:52.379 And Frank Cultural Voice was a Perti fan. 172 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:52.799 Right. 173 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:58.080 And and it came at it as, well, this is the version of the show I want to make. 174 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:05.580 And and then sort of expanded the, you know, what would happen if, you know, this forest popped up overnight? 175 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:11.100 Like it's the whole yeti on the loo and tooting back kind of conception of the show. 176 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.639 Like it juxtaposes to odd things, doesn't it? 177 00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:20.340 Like it brings the world where fairy tales are set, crashes into contemporary London. 178 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:34.379 And I think the thing, it's sort of an extension of what I think works about series 8 in general, we were talking about Kill the Moon earlier and talking about how those ridiculous premises throw a lot of fans off, but what I think really works for series 8. 179 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:40.019 It's about crashing these ridiculous premises and to utterly serious emotional drama about real people. 180 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:48.360 Because that is more important than just being set in our world being set in a world of people whose relationships actually matter and feel real. 181 00:13:48.659 --> 00:14:09.899 And so I think the previous episodes that have dealt with Clara and Danny have done it with varying degrees of success, listen, I think, which is obviously set during their 1st date, does a really good job of making that relationship important and getting us to see how it happens. 182 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:20.460 But this here, which is episode 10, is kind of at the point of the series where maybe Boomtown is or something like that earlier on. 183 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:27.899 And I think it's the only real proper chance that we get to spend time watching those 2 in a relationship. 184 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:36.659 And I think it's absolutely necessary going into dark water next week that we get to see that happening. 185 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.419 And the relationship is really great. 186 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:43.500 You know, Clara has been lying to Danny all along. 187 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:50.639 And previous episodes of associated Clara lying with her increasing role as the doctor, the doctor lies. 188 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.600 And so Clara lies in Flatline, for instance, in order to be the doctor, but she's been lying since mummy. 189 00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:03.600 And there's some call out to the doctor lying, I think, as well, that Clara makes in this episode. 190 00:15:03.659 --> 00:15:07.620 But Danny doesn't rub her nose in it or anything like that. 191 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.460 Like Danny doesn't force her to apologise or get angry with her. 192 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:16.440 He just says, go home, have a think, and then just tell me the truth. 193 00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:18.960 I don't mind what the truth is, but just tell it to me. 194 00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:20.639 I think it's great. 195 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:30.059 I personally really love the way Danny's drama with Clara is drawn out because I think there's common misconception among fandom that Danny is controlling or abusive. 196 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.220 I see a lot of people tweeting things along those lines. 197 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:38.519 There's even a quite bad big finish where Danny goes on a trip with a 12th doctor and spends the whole time. 198 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:46.500 They basically just hate each other the whole time and are fighting over who gets possession of Clara, which is, I think, awful and terrible and small minded. 199 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:55.320 Whereas what's so great about the relationship in series 8 in my opinion, is that Danny disagrees with the doctor, but also respects Clara enough to make her own choices. 200 00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:59.039 He just worries for emotional health and tries to ask her to communicate. 201 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:03.659 I think that's a much more sophisticated conflict and one that rings a lot more true. 202 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:05.460 I didn't get that. 203 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:06.659 Oh, okay. 204 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.559 Yeah, I mean, he kind of says, I don't mind what the truth is, remember? 205 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:11.879 I don't mind what the truth is. 206 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.799 He does give her instructions. 207 00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:18.360 Like he gives her instructions at the end of the caretaker. 208 00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:24.299 And I think he doesn't come off well in the caretaker at all, but, you know, does anyone? 209 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:25.740 No, it's pretty terrible. 210 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:42.299 People tend to hark back to that when they, yeah, they focus on that scene at the end, the caretaker as being, that's what, that's why they're saying he's controlling and, and, you know, pushing her into a situation because that's, that's the bit that they focus on. 211 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.820 And so here he says, you have to tell me the truth. 212 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:52.740 And I think that's a perfectly reasonable requirement, if you're having a relationship, you know, tell the truth about important things. 213 00:16:52.799 --> 00:17:00.480 And then the very last time the 2 of them interact in last Christmas, Danny also gives her an instruction. 214 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:07.200 You know, you have to give me 5 minutes every day but you aren't allowed to spend more than 5 minutes on it. 215 00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:10.319 You've got to kind of get past this. 216 00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:16.079 And so seeing Danny, you know, and he's taller than her and all of that sort of thing. 217 00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:20.400 So, you know, I guess that's how people kind of read him as controlling. 218 00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:22.319 But I thought he was super charming here. 219 00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:26.339 And there's that moment where she finds him incredibly hot. 220 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:37.079 Remember, it's that sort of she's about to say something about the way he orders the children around and the way that he deals with them and she ends up just saying how incredibly hot he is. 221 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:40.319 Because he's taking care of the children and putting them first. 222 00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:42.059 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 223 00:17:42.119 --> 00:18:07.740 I think that really rings true as to why Clara would fall for a guy like him in the 1st place because I've been watching series 7 again recently, and I mean, obviously Clara acts like a totally different character there, but you can kind of see this sort of charming facade she puts up as the same sort of charm offensive she might have put up with Danny, where she is this giggly manic pixie dream girl where she's trying to present herself as this like perfect heroine. 224 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:19.200 And obviously she's a real person and so much of series 8 is her trying to build herself into 2 people. one built in the real world and one built as still that bubbly space character. 225 00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:29.279 And you can see her trying to build this perfect relationship with Danny, where she's trying to perform being this ordinary person because I guess maybe that's just her fetish. 226 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:50.880 I just think that the best illustration of that is the one successful bit of the caretaker, which is the pre-credit sequence, which I just think is unbelievably funny and clever, and it is her rushing from one world to another, from one role to the other, and kind of not really successfully being able to separate them. 227 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.059 I'm not sure Clara actually exists. 228 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:55.140 Really? 229 00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:06.660 I have a feeling that Moffat wrote Clara to be the impossible girl and then he gets to series 8 and goes, okay, what character does she have? 230 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:13.980 Yeah, I think so Series 7 really starts off with her looking after children, right? 231 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:23.579 That's the very 1st thing that we see is her with Angie and Arcy, and she had intended to travel, but had ended up staying behind to look after children. 232 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.460 And we do see her interacting with children in a positive way. 233 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:31.319 We see her in Rings of Ackerton with Mary, for instance, looking after her. 234 00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:35.400 And so I don't think the school thing is a bad call. 235 00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:37.680 It's not a giant leap, is it? 236 00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:38.279 No. 237 00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:41.279 No, she goes from nanny to kind of English teacher. 238 00:19:41.339 --> 00:19:42.779 I think that's kind of okay. 239 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.119 But it's a funny thing. 240 00:19:45.180 --> 00:20:00.720 You know, high concept companions were a feature of the classic series, but they tended to be, you know, like a short paragraph, a 3 sentence description of the character, and then we cast Matthew Waterhouse, and he just becomes like Matthew Waterhouse, you know? 241 00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:04.200 And I think that that's what they really do hear. 242 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:05.880 She's the impossible girl. 243 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:17.339 But the fact is that the whole thing, if it's tied together into a coherent whole, and plenty of people don't agree that it is, but I think the whole thing is tied together by Jenna's performance. 244 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.980 Oh, Jenner is a very capable actress. 245 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:28.920 I also note that she's she is very clearly and very competently portraying the fact that she desperately wants to get out there. 246 00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:29.519 Yeah. 247 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:35.880 And as soon as this new space mystery happens, She's like, 0 yeah, this is right up my wheelhouse. 248 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:40.019 I quite like that they kind of portray Clara as an addict, really. 249 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.500 I mean, that's sort of an arc across series 8, but it's especially clear here. 250 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:48.480 Her sneaking off to phone the doctor or something is like sneaking off to have a quick cigarette or something. 251 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:49.319 Yeah, yeah. 252 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:57.000 I do like, though, the bit at the end where they make the decision, like Danny and Clara make a different decision. 253 00:20:57.059 --> 00:21:01.380 Danny goes off with the kids, making sure that they get home. 254 00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:09.059 And he does kind of give her permission, not that she needs it, but he's okay with her decision to go and watch the space thing. 255 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:19.200 That was the bit Kevin, where he talks about Bradley saying pleases, you know, as big a miracle as anything that she's going to see up in space. 256 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:24.839 And so we cut to her and the doctor hovering in space watching the solar flare land. 257 00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:30.359 There's a great line there from Danny, which is, I don't want to see more things. 258 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.059 I want to see the things that are in front of me more clearly. 259 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:33.839 Yeah. 260 00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:34.680 Yeah. 261 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.539 It's funny. 262 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:50.099 We keep mentioning the caretaker in this episode because wasn't one of Gareth Roberts' real missions with Doctor Who for all his flaws to try and normalise the perspectives of people who don't want to go on zany space adventures, but are happy with the lives they live in here. 263 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:58.799 I feel like Danny is a better articulated version of that by a writer with more complex understandings of the world, I might say. 264 00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:09.480 Yeah, so James Corden's character, for instance, in the lodger, is someone who can't see the point of Paris, who would never travel with a doctor, and that's an important sort of character beard. 265 00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:14.160 I just think everyone in the caretaker is just in unpleasant mode. 266 00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:21.299 And I just think neither the doctor nor Danny come across well because they're kind of fighting over Clara. 267 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:34.799 And I think part of the problem there is, it's saying, yes, we don't need someone to be obsessed with all the space reasons, but it doesn't really say, why should they be so excited about Earth beyond Earth is mundane and we live here. 268 00:22:34.859 --> 00:22:43.259 Here and in the forest of the night, it genuinely presents Earth as a space full of wonder, not just with the kids, but with the forest itself. 269 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.539 It's saying the earth is a remarkable place. 270 00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:47.400 Yeah, yeah. 271 00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:51.720 Let's talk about the forest. 272 00:22:51.839 --> 00:23:08.160 There's a great line that actually gets whispered, I think, is an unfortunate directoral choice, but it's when the glowing tree spirits, shall we call them, say, we are the grass that grows over mass graves. 273 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.400 After your wars are over, we will still be here. 274 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:13.019 We are the life that prevails. 275 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:16.500 We were here before you and we will be here after you. 276 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:20.039 It's presented as being bigger than the doctor, isn't it? 277 00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:25.500 The forest is older and will outlast the doctor. 278 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.740 As scripted, they are called the here, apparently. 279 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:29.640 Okay. 280 00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:30.480 The year. 281 00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:31.019 They are here. 282 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:32.039 Yeah, okay. 283 00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:32.819 Okay. 284 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:53.220 I think like what it says about the forest, like the Orvalds, you know, the forest that we have in our imaginations, and it's a particular European thing, I think, that idea that the forest is the original environment in Europe, the one that we've cut down in order to kind of make lives for ourselves. 285 00:23:53.279 --> 00:24:00.660 So we have this sort of strange relationship with the forest and it's something that we're frightened of. 286 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:09.779 And that seems like a sort of primal hardwired instinct, the same way that we seem to be just naturally afraid of the dark. 287 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:17.279 We're afraid of forests as well, as if that was a sort of terrifying environment back when we were kind of prey animals or something. 288 00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:19.799 Well, it was full of wolves, isn't it? 289 00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:20.640 And it is full of wolves. 290 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:21.779 And brothers grim. 291 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:22.380 Yes. 292 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:27.539 And gingerbread houses, all of which get kind of referenced. 293 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:42.539 And I also like that in the end, where the forest is sort of explicitly something that comes again and again, and we forget, there's beautiful lines about why we forget, like, if we forgot the pain, we'd stop having wars and stop having babies. 294 00:24:42.599 --> 00:25:00.480 It's just these incredible lines about human psychology and the way we deal with these fears, these primal urges that I think makes this episode far more interesting than pretty much any other era is generally regarded as worst episodes. 295 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.960 Like, there is so much to unpack here, even if it doesn't work for people. 296 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:16.980 I think Doctor Who has a problem with the present day, and it was a problem that it didn't have in the classic series because it couldn't afford to do large scale events that everyone in the world noticed. 297 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:26.039 So when the aliens landed, they landed somewhere in the home counties and, you know, presumably a D notice was put out and no one ever found out about it. 298 00:25:26.099 --> 00:25:36.539 And Doctor Who, when it comes back, decides rightly, straight with aliens of London, that an alien invasion is going to be a big public event that we all watch on the news. 299 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:50.819 We have our very 1st news stories about an alien invasion in aliens of London, and we have the forest being covered by the world's news media as well, even though none of our characters are sitting watching the telly. 300 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.019 We still get to see it. 301 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.000 And then you've got the problem. 302 00:25:54.059 --> 00:26:03.180 Well, then Doctor Who stops being set in our world, because Doctor Who is now set in a world where lots of public alien invasions happen and we all know about aliens. 303 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.480 And I don't think Russell ever managed to kind of square the circle on that one. 304 00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:10.740 And I think that Moffatt's instinct is to just ignore it. 305 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:27.119 And here, I think the fact that cultural voice hangs a hat on it and then uses it as a launching point to talk about the way that we forget, the way that we get past terrible events, the way that we live through them all. 306 00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:33.660 You remember the bit where the TV, the person on the TV says that we should all just stay in our homes? 307 00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:47.279 And I couldn't help thinking about the pandemic, you know, that we all went through this thing, and for most of us, at least now, I think it's largely in the past. 308 00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:56.880 And I find myself struggling to remember the sort of 105 days or however long it was that we were locked up at home in 2021. 309 00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.380 Longer if you were in Melbourne. 310 00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.759 Yes, yeah, yeah. 311 00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:01.859 You know, that we do forget. 312 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:03.299 We really properly do forget. 313 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.940 And I love the choice of wars and babies as well. 314 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:08.400 From one extreme to the other. 315 00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:24.359 Well, yeah, but there's also like a male pastime that overwhelmingly in history wars have been fought by men, and then babies, you know, suddenly we're women now as well, and women forget what childbirth's like because they would never, ever do it again. otherwise. 316 00:27:24.420 --> 00:27:27.599 It is really terrific staff, I think. 317 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:35.579 The writer gives a summation of that in his theme, I would think, of the episode, which is fear a little bit less trust a little bit more. 318 00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:36.480 Yeah. 319 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:17.339 Because we mentioned the pandemic, I feel like that's a good segue to probably the most controversial, and perhaps rightly settlement of this, the doctor telling them not to overmedicate children for psychiatric illness, which I have my own feelings about, which I'd like to get to, but I'd like to just know what you guys think about it first. 320 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.599 In fact, it is one of the major objections that Brendan has towards the episode. 321 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:26.880 And it's a little bit like a sort of grumpy old man thing. 322 00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:30.599 You know, all the children are taking medication these days. blah, blah, blah. 323 00:28:30.660 --> 00:28:31.559 Isn't that terrible? 324 00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:33.299 Why can't we allow them to be creative? 325 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:46.680 And I think Sandifus says something as if the story was saying we would have medicated Blake, William Blake, and we would never have got any of his literary or artistic works as a result. 326 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:49.140 And I think it's unfortunate. 327 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:54.480 Yeah, and I think it is a kind of, it's a grumpy old man kind of thing. 328 00:28:54.599 --> 00:29:04.079 And I think because cultural voice and Moffat are both grumpy old man or grumpy middle-aged man at the time, that's why it makes it to air, but I think it should perhaps have been rethought. 329 00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:10.380 So like the dramatic equivalent of one of those posters is say this is a natural antidepressant. 330 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.660 Well, and has a forest. 331 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:24.960 Well, I was kind of thinking that it's a little bit like the abortion stuff in Kilamoon, which I think is not at all intended by Peter Harness in any way. 332 00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:37.980 And I don't think that the episode has presented works as an anti-abortion metaphor at all, but it is just one of those things that perhaps should have been thought about more carefully. 333 00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.259 If you take a step back, though. 334 00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:48.180 There are quite a lot of environmental factors that are known to impede children's ability to cope. 335 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:55.680 And I think the problem is Maeve is clearly coded as someone with more mental health issues than the other children. 336 00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:01.019 So we all look at it and go, well, perhaps she does really need it. 337 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:10.079 So it becomes harder to justify the author's choice to suggest that she doesn't just because of the spirits around her. 338 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:28.380 But when you to look at the other children, you might make the discussion a bit easier because stepping back into the queer perspective, you've got the question about, well, you don't fit in with society, you're deviant, we've got this medication over here that will stop you being deviant. 339 00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:29.339 Is that a good thing? 340 00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:31.319 Yeah. 341 00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:45.539 But I think given the context of the discussion and the fact that people of a certain age are likely to kind of say that the younger generation is overmedicate it, that we end up falling down on that side of a debate. 342 00:30:45.599 --> 00:31:10.799 So for me, it's a very complex one because, like I mentioned, as a kid, I was going through a lot of groups like that because I am very ADHD and probably around the time this episode 1st aired, I would have been, I think, probably just starting college or finishing up high school and wrestling with the decision of whether I wanted to stay on medication because on the one hand, it really did help me fit certain needs of society. 343 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.920 But on the other hand, it did feel like losing a part of myself. 344 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:18.119 And I am blessed in that it's a manageable condition without medication. 345 00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:27.779 It's not, for example, schizophrenia or something like that, which I think what a lot of people object to in this episode saying, well, there's some conditions where you do need to be medicated because otherwise you will not be healthy. 346 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:37.920 But I do think there is also truth in saying, maybe listen to children and hear their perspective on it before jumping to those decisions. 347 00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:41.640 It's a big, it's a conversation bigger than Doctor Who is the problem. 348 00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:47.759 There's not space in an episode about trees taking over the earth to have an honest conversation about mental health. 349 00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:48.960 Yeah. 350 00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:56.940 I mean, there are conditions, the symptoms of which seem to be a list of things that annoy teachers when they're trying to run a class, you know. 351 00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:05.099 So like, okay, maybe there is actually room for a debate here, but I think you're right, Kevin, it's a little bit too hit and run. 352 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:12.779 It doesn't seem to be aware of the implications and there isn't space to address it without distracting us from the main story. 353 00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:27.299 One of my friends who was a special needs teacher had a simple rule of thumb that she conveyed, which was, you could tell the children who needed the medication, because they would be happier and more able to cope after they'd had it. 354 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:34.200 Whereas those who were just terrible after the medication were just badly behave children. 355 00:32:35.099 --> 00:32:36.900 Like Bradley. 356 00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.380 Can I mention the other thing that Brendan doesn't like? 357 00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.900 I'm sub-tweeting, but it's not sub-tweeting. 358 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:44.759 Not sub-tweeting, I'm mentioning him by name. 359 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:47.099 I hope I'm not miscaracterizing what he thinks. 360 00:32:47.160 --> 00:33:05.640 But given the issue of climate change, which does come up, if you've got a magical forest that appears and solves environmental problems, is that discouraging us from doing anything about it? 361 00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:10.920 Are we in sort of Gaia hypothesis territory where nature kind of heals itself? 362 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:20.700 I think not for me, just because I can't imagine anybody watching this episode thinking, yes, the trees will absolutely come and protect us when things go wrong. 363 00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:31.140 Or is it like, yeah, we're doing that to the trees, they're not going to help us, whereas they're trying to protect the planet. 364 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.240 Well, I mean, the trees do that. 365 00:33:33.299 --> 00:33:40.019 You know, the special thing that they do overnight. is just a very special exaggerated version of what they do anyway. 366 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:45.839 One of the things that the trees do is they make the planet habitable. 367 00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:58.440 And you might remember that summer just before the pandemic where all of the forests in the world, including in Australia, just seemed to catch fire one after the other. 368 00:33:58.559 --> 00:33:59.579 Australia. 369 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:00.299 Yeah, yeah. 370 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.039 Like it was incredible. 371 00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:04.500 So the trees do this. 372 00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:05.880 That's what the trees do. 373 00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:11.460 And because this is absolutely a fairy tale, it's not an environmental drama. 374 00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:12.360 It's not a thriller. 375 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:13.320 It's none of those things. 376 00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:23.519 It's explicitly doing something to the trees like making them people, giving them souls, giving them purposes and stuff in a way that is absolutely magical. 377 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:33.239 I think that its aim, and I think it probably succeeds at it, is to make us more concerned about the forests. 378 00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:37.079 I thought it was a very clear message, save the treats. 379 00:34:37.139 --> 00:34:38.460 Yeah, well, that's right. 380 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.760 It's the thing that they say that Maeve says over everyone's phone. 381 00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:47.280 They go on about how wonderful trees are and how they produce oxygen and all of that and all the biosphere. 382 00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:56.219 And it was broadcast in 2014, as the discussions about the Paris climate accord are being had in the public space. 383 00:34:56.219 --> 00:35:01.679 And I do take it as an absurdist fairy tale, like, you know, the trees aren't going to save us. 384 00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:03.659 No. is quite clear to everyone. 385 00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:07.739 But it is saying that, you know, we have to save the trees. 386 00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:08.760 Otherwise, they can't help us. 387 00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:09.780 Yeah, yeah. 388 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:21.480 I also think in terms of environmental commentary, there is a theme that comes up repeatedly in this episode, which talk about the fires reminded me of, catastrophe is the metabolism of the universe. 389 00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:24.900 Things in the world happen with big moments of change. 390 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.000 And I live in California. 391 00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:28.619 We catch fire all the time. 392 00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:32.219 Part of my day job is trying to prevent that happening. 393 00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:35.760 But the simple fact is, that is how forests reproduce. 394 00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:36.960 They catch fire. 395 00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:43.440 This is an episode about a forest springing up across the earth and catching fire because that's how things propagate. 396 00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:48.599 Big moments have changed big catastrophes are part of the natural flow of the world. 397 00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:58.139 I mean, yes, humans are causing a unprecedented catastrophe that the earth is not prepared to deal with, but that is how things progress. 398 00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:02.159 Yeah, I think our situations are fairly similar. 399 00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:09.300 We live in a place where there are regular bush fires and there have been since before Europeans arrive. 400 00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:18.599 And most of our indigenous plant species evolved, like specifically to take advantage of these bushfires. 401 00:36:18.659 --> 00:36:19.679 Yeah, yeah. 402 00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:27.360 And so I just remember like the summer of 1980 or something and everything was on fire and we couldn't use the, it was great. 403 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:29.159 I was staying with a friend who had a pool. 404 00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:34.079 We weren't allowed to have showers, we had to save water, so we were just hop in the pool so we didn't have to wash. 405 00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:44.219 They would be like, and then just months later, you see the vegetation kind of reclaiming the area that's been devastated. 406 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:52.380 I think the 2019 bushfires really do come into this quite well because what's forgotten in Australia a lot is they started in August. 407 00:36:52.440 --> 00:37:00.300 You know, my parents lived in, um, near Glen Innis, and those forests were on fire since August. 408 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.500 People actually had cardiac events and all kinds of things because of the smoke. 409 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.860 Um, and everyone's just forgotten. 410 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.699 Yeah, yeah. the public consciousness has just moved on. 411 00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:15.059 The issues about the fires just completely forgotten. 412 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:19.260 And now we're all talking about housing prices and the price of oil. 413 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:20.159 Yeah. 414 00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:22.559 Yeah, and it was kind of COVID, wasn't it? 415 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:23.099 in a way. 416 00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:27.480 We just moved on to the next giant catastrophe, but... 417 00:37:27.539 --> 00:37:28.079 Yeah, yeah. 418 00:37:28.139 --> 00:37:32.460 But I mean, if it's burning in August, August is like, what, early spring? 419 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:42.239 Like it's it's certainly not summer and it's not when we expect that sort of thing to happen because we do have those seasonal fires in summer. 420 00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:43.679 It was extraordinary. 421 00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:51.179 We had the New South Wales government telling us not to go outside because the air quality was so low. 422 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:57.420 So it's a little bit like this and a little bit like the lockdowns around the pandemic. 423 00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:03.000 I wonder if part of the reason the Brits don't get this episode is because they don't catch fire all the time. 424 00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:05.760 Yeah, maybe that's too wet. 425 00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:30.119 Yeah, so I do think, you know, this episode is being broadcast into a world of climate change and what it's doing is reminding us of what the trees actually do, which is they help to maintain a habitable environment. 426 00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:32.760 And it's especially targeting kids with that. 427 00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:33.719 It's saying kids. 428 00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:35.579 Trees are amazing. 429 00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:36.960 This world is amazing. 430 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:37.980 Protect it. 431 00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:41.219 Like there's that little class project, protect the trees. 432 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.619 I love that so much. 433 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.179 I really love that. 434 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:55.980 And that is also too, the moment where the doctor kind of embraces the kind of school teacher role, you know, he's been kind of slightly dismissive of Danny looking after the kids. 435 00:38:56.039 --> 00:39:01.980 Clara's looking after the kids as part of her job and that's something the doctor's not interested in. 436 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:06.300 He's almost presented as an alternative to her doing her job. 437 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:08.820 But here he sets them a task. 438 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:18.480 And just seeing all of those kids, you know, on the floor of the TARDIS with an exercise book, writing something with a biro, like a speech from Maeve to read. 439 00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:22.920 It's one of the happiest moments, I can remember it, Doctor Who. it's just beautiful. 440 00:39:23.579 --> 00:39:28.619 I guess that does also lead if we're talking about Maeve's little speech to the world. 441 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:31.380 We have to address Anibal Arden. 442 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:32.219 Please come home. 443 00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:44.460 I think they ruined the end with that because I think if she'd just been sitting on the on the steps smoking a cigarette, then it would have been more impactful. 444 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.000 The, like, magical... magical bush. 445 00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:49.619 She was hydrangeas all along. 446 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.860 No, standing up with a kind of evil glint in her eyes. 447 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.199 Like, how are we coding this character? 448 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:04.380 I think that she, I mean, she's a beautiful young woman and but she does look slightly evil with that smile. 449 00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:11.099 It's clearly the forest giving her back to Maeve and her family, isn't it? 450 00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:24.780 I think it is, and it isn't, because I think the other implication and this episode wants to work both on the magical level and the real emotional level is Maeve calls literally everybody on the entire planet and says, please come home. 451 00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:38.940 I'm pretty sure the implication is she heard that and came home, but I think because it tries to have both ways and because I think it's the one moment in the episode where the direction really lets it down, it comes off like she's just magically summoned out of a bush. 452 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:43.320 I can see why that's a step too far for people. hiding in the bush. 453 00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:53.820 Her mother does complain that the next door neighbours have planted those hydrangeas and she initially thinks that that's what's kind of blocking the door because the hydrangeas have got out of control. 454 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:57.719 So the hydrangeas are kind of telegraphed early on. 455 00:40:57.780 --> 00:41:02.099 I mean, on the fantastical level on the fairy tale level. 456 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.739 She was lost in the forest. 457 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:06.119 Yeah, yeah maybe. 458 00:41:06.179 --> 00:41:06.840 Yeah, yeah. 459 00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:19.139 And so the whole, yes, she's been given back by the forest thing works because it's, you know, she was, she was a little girl lost in the woods, like on a figurative and psychological level, perhaps. 460 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:19.679 I don't know. 461 00:41:19.739 --> 00:41:22.920 I think those levels were probably intended. 462 00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:25.320 I also think they don't really land. 463 00:41:25.380 --> 00:41:31.139 It's definitely the weakest scene in the episode and I think probably the 1st thing people think of when they hate this episode. 464 00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:37.320 It's a very strange ending and the final shot is very strange, I think, the final shot of Annabelle's face is super odd. 465 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:49.920 Also, just, as a scene feels kind of tacked on, like, the episode already has so many good conclusions that ending on that note feels kind of alienating, like, why are we going back to this? 466 00:41:49.980 --> 00:42:06.960 Yeah, I guess, though, we're told that the reason that Maeve is able to communicate with the trees is because she's lost Annabelle and Ruby, Ruby's assessment of Maeve, where it's, for God's sake, give her a medication. 467 00:42:07.019 --> 00:42:08.219 You know, she's barely functioning. 468 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.440 She's such a hilarious drama queen about it. 469 00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:11.940 It's really funny. 470 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:24.059 And so the reason that she can communicate with the trees is because she has lost someone and she's always on the lookout for that person and because she's always on the lookout, she's more sensitive to seeing things. 471 00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.780 And I thought that that was a kind of beautiful thing for the doctor to say. 472 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:35.280 Yeah, like, so I thought that worked really well as an observation and particularly well coming from the doctor. 473 00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:38.099 And so I think we do have to get Annabelle back. 474 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.639 If Annabelle's so important, then she has to come back at the end, I think. 475 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:44.400 Maybe it's just not pulled off. 476 00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:46.980 Maybe it's that scene doesn't quite work. 477 00:42:51.659 --> 00:42:53.760 I tell you what I did like. 478 00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:58.019 I did like, you know, there's a few references to things that are happening throughout the series. 479 00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:01.440 And does Movak get a writing credit on this one? 480 00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:02.099 No. 481 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:02.820 No. 482 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:05.460 But his hand's clearly in it, isn't it? 483 00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:12.599 Because when Moffa gets a writing credit, it's almost always, I think, for the Danny and Clara stuff. 484 00:43:12.659 --> 00:43:18.480 But the callback to Mummy on the Orient Express, the you breathe our air line. 485 00:43:18.539 --> 00:43:24.960 You know, when the doctor says, I'm going to stay and the references to time heist and stuff like that. 486 00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:33.179 It all does a very good job of pulling the season together and making it cohere in episode 11 before we launch into the finale. 487 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:43.320 I quite love that scene of Clara and the doctor talking out whether to use the TARDIS as an ark to save the children, whether Clara will stay or go. 488 00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:46.739 I think everything about that just really sings. 489 00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:56.460 What's so cool about this episode for me is it's not actually a Doctor Who plot. a catastrophe happens and it's about a bunch of people emotionally responding to it. 490 00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:07.739 And that ending really feels like the climax to that where Clara realises, yes, she wants to travel, but she doesn't completely want to be the doctor. 491 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:09.719 She doesn't want to be the last of her kind. 492 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:12.420 She still has a reason she wants to come back home. 493 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:14.159 I thought that was really beautiful. 494 00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:16.739 Her reluctance to say that. 495 00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:22.380 And I think we know that she's going to say I don't want to be the only one left. 496 00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.139 I don't want to be the last of my kind. 497 00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:31.559 And her reluctance to say that because it's, I don't want to be like you, doctor. 498 00:44:31.619 --> 00:44:33.179 I don't want to be like you. 499 00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:37.019 I don't want to experience the terrible things you've experienced. 500 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.380 I don't want it to sit in my heart the way it sits in your heart. 501 00:44:40.500 --> 00:44:42.420 I think that's really, really good. 502 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:47.219 And I love the, you know, the I walk your earth. 503 00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:48.300 I breathe your air. 504 00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:50.880 And when she says, you're welcome. 505 00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:55.440 And that let the human race save you for once. 506 00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:58.199 Like, I think the amazing thing about this story. 507 00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:00.059 It's like what you say, Kevin. 508 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:01.260 There's no villain. 509 00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:02.880 There's nothing alien. 510 00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:07.380 It is just something said on earth where earth things are happening. 511 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:13.980 So it's able to just concentrate on putting the characters in different situations and seeing how they react. 512 00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:18.840 And just having it escalate to the point where everyone's going to die. 513 00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:27.599 You know, that we just assume that everyone's going to die because what the forests have called down the, you know, are calling down this solar flare. 514 00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:29.880 I just think that's amazing. 515 00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:35.699 Like suddenly we're in a situation where everyone's going to die and we have to have the doctor and Clara react to that. 516 00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:39.960 And also it has the biggest callback of all, and it's the climax of that. 517 00:45:40.019 --> 00:45:45.960 The, uh, I think the 1st time we hear repeated from the day of the doctor, home the long way around. 518 00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:46.980 Yeah. 519 00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:59.280 Like, that is such a big moment and putting it at the end of this standalone, odd episode is, I think, really weighty because the doctor has just dealt with the guilt of being the last of his kind. 520 00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:04.019 He has just resolved that, and that's the last piece left of it. 521 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:12.119 So dealing with that in the conversation with Clara about what that does to him and what that would do to her is, I think, such a beautiful way of addressing it. 522 00:46:12.179 --> 00:46:16.980 It doesn't need to be this big space, pyrotechnics, galifrayan epic that people wanted. 523 00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:20.039 It needs to be a drama about how the doctor's feeling. 524 00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:21.239 Yeah. 525 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:28.559 I also quite like the fact that they seem to have written the doctor to embrace what is a bit neurodivergent. 526 00:46:28.619 --> 00:46:30.719 At the start of Capaldi Zero. 527 00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:34.260 He clearly is having trouble with emotional intelligence and social interaction. 528 00:46:34.320 --> 00:47:03.539 He's clearly got face blindness where he's, you know, which ones may, which ones may, and he's starting to grow a little bit more in understanding himself and other people, but he's still clearly quite affectionate and friendly and a real person in wanting Clara to come with him, but he also is being quite understanding and saying, well, I understand that you don't want to, because the horror of being the last of your kind is quite. terrible. 529 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:12.960 But there's still that thing through this whole season where he's being a person who is neurodivergent. 530 00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:26.639 And also, speaking of the neurodiversions, I think that putting him with a bunch of neurodivergent kids is a definite choice because there are a lot of scenes where instead of talking to Danny and Clara at their level, he's at the same level as the kids. 531 00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:31.619 Like, one of my favourite lines in this episode is when they're talking about, like, where's Maeve? 532 00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:35.340 and Ruby's like, oh, my God, Maeve's dead, and the doctor screams. 533 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.400 So good. 534 00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:43.199 Ruby is so great. 535 00:48:08.579 --> 00:48:11.940 Well, this is what that's all we have time for this week. 536 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:18.000 We'll be back next week for an extremely unwelcome revelation about death in dark water. 537 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:36.780 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our accounts, on Facebook, Twitter, and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcast, Bondfinger, Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. 538 00:48:37.380 --> 00:48:42.300 Until next time, please don't chop, spray, or harm the trees. 539 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:43.139 They're here to help. 540 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.840 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 541 00:48:45.900 --> 00:48:46.800 Good night. 542 00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:47.699 Good night. 543 00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:48.719 Good night. 544 00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:56.340 That was Flightthrough Entirety. 545 00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:59.820 Sorry, Nathan Bottomley, Kevin Bernard, Matthew Hounsell and James Selwood. 546 00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:01.860 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam. 547 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:09.239 This episode, she was the hydrangeas all along, was recorded on the 6th of May 2023 and released on the 18th of June. 548 00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:15.480 The most striking thing about this era of Doctor Who is the deplorable lack of space corridors. 549 00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:17.039 But please don't worry. 550 00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:27.059 Episode 271, a flight through entirety to be released later this year, contains one of the all-time classics of the genre, and we're confident that you're going to love it. 551 00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:36.000 Has anyone on this season of FT mentioned how good the 12th doctor's theme is? 552 00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:37.139 Yes. 553 00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:39.000 Yeah. 554 00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.320 Yeah, it's really great. 555 00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:49.559 And we do also, we do have to, of course, mention as as an insert into the episode, but not, you know, in any way related to the episode is missy. 556 00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:53.400 Yes, and she goes, I love surprises. 557 00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:55.380 Tell your face, Michelle. 558 00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:58.860 No, because she's lying. that's the thing. 559 00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:05.039 But that's sort of wonderful thing where she's kind of watching the season along with this. 560 00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:05.820 Yes, yeah. 561 00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:07.739 We mentioned that in deep breath. 562 00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:16.860 She's watching deep breath and so she doesn't know whether the half-faced man has been pushed out of the restaurant by the doctor because we didn't get to see that in the episode. 563 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:29.340 And so when the half-ace man turns up in the nether spear, she's unable to determine exactly how he got there, although she suspects that the doctor did push him out of the restaurant, which is the correct answer. 564 00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:32.280 She's just sitting there with her time-spaced visualiser. 565 00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:33.659 Yes, yeah. 566 00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:36.059 I mean, it's terribly funny too. 567 00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:49.019 It's terribly funny to imagine the master watching the doctor's adventures and seeing the earth get about to be destroyed by a forest before she can get around to enacting her plan. 568 00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:51.900 It's like, imagine the breakdown. 569 00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:53.340 She would have had it. if it went through. 570 00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:55.679 Humanity was sorted out. 571 00:50:57.539 --> 00:51:07.380 Look, I mean, I just think, so this is the last time she just appears and from now on, she'll be kind of the doctor's antagonist when she turns up. 572 00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:16.980 I just think Michelle Gomez is absolutely brilliant and that this arc with her has been just tremendously entertaining. 573 00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:17.760 So good. 574 00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:23.400 If I remember correctly, also all the little inserts from her, weren't they directed by Rachel Talloway? 575 00:51:23.460 --> 00:51:28.860 No, she directed the ones in the 1st 2 episodes. 576 00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:29.760 Okay. 577 00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:30.780 Who directed the first? 578 00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:32.760 We talked about this actually. 579 00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:39.000 She just directed some in a few early episodes where the director himself wasn't available to shoot them. 580 00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:43.199 But yes, she directed the ones in Into the Dalek and deep breath. 581 00:51:43.260 --> 00:51:51.659 Yes, this episode's ones are actually recorded by the director of this episode, but were recorded before the rest the episode. 582 00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:52.139 Right. 583 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:53.880 Okay. interesting. 584 00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:58.920 Because I did want to mention just in terms of both Rachel Talalay and Shree Folkson. 585 00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:18.480 That's the 1st time we've really had women direct the Maffa era since I think there was like one women in one woman in like series 5 or something, but it's something that he really did not make enough of an effort in, and that there was really a big conversation around the Moffat era and the role of women writing and directing. 586 00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:23.699 And series 8 is the 1st time you really see him start to make a course correction and emphasise that. 587 00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:25.739 And I think it really pays off. 588 00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:29.219 These are 2 of, 2 of the best directors of series 8 right there. 589 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:30.539 Yeah. 590 00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:38.400 I think, you know, I think that Tubinal is the one who kind of deserves the credit for finally getting this ride. 591 00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:48.599 Moffatt is the sort of person who learns from his mistakes and does grow, I think, during his run. 592 00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:51.360 And so he is starting to work towards it. 593 00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:59.219 And he's also starting to work towards the idea of a female doctor, obviously, with Missy, and with some of the stuff at the end of series 10. 594 00:52:59.579 --> 00:53:07.260 But it does take Cheap Mill to come in, determined to kind of get a more diverse team of directors and a more diverse team of writers. 595 00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.360 And so he gets that right finally. 596 00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:15.900 And we're waiting over the next few months to see how Russell takes that even further in all likelihood. 597 00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:18.000 Here's a question for you all. 598 00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:18.840 Yep. 599 00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:25.320 If this had been directed by someone else, do you think it would have been a lesser episode? 600 00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:27.719 Do you think her direction makes it? 601 00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:36.780 I think she manages successfully to portray the to create this world. 602 00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.119 I think she manages to create this world really well. 603 00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:50.159 And I think that some of the technical stuff like getting the tiger and getting the wolves and stuff is quite well. 604 00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:52.139 They were filmed specially. 605 00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:57.179 They weren't, you know, stock footage, um, cut into the episode. 606 00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:00.119 It's impossible not to think of the arc, isn't it? 607 00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:01.440 Yeah. 608 00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:08.639 And you wonder at some point, at some points, whether they are actually like rotoscope, did you? 609 00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:24.300 I mean, there's that one thing where we have a shot of Maeve and there's a sort of dark patch in the foliage behind her and then the wolves appear in that and that's very stylised and stuff, but I think that's perfectly reasonable given the sort of story that we're telling. 610 00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:26.760 Like the Gamork in never-ending story. 611 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:28.619 Anyway. 612 00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:35.039 I think she does do very well directing the children and things like her shots, shot choice. 613 00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:36.119 Her angle choice. 614 00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:40.260 When they're doing the school experiment, how that's shot from under the Tartar console. 615 00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:41.219 Yeah, yeah. 616 00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:43.920 And across at them, not at the teachers looking at them. 617 00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:45.119 Yeah, yeah. 618 00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:53.760 Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's been a while since we've had an episode that actually properly centres children and I think they pull it off. 619 00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:57.300 They actually managed to do it and it could so easily go wrong. 620 00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:02.699 Anything else? 621 00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:08.340 This will all be sort of cut together into a thing and I'll make sure that it ends at... 622 00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:10.500 I've got a thing for your art show. 623 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:17.880 I just love the idea of Missy sitting at a desk with a laptop watching Doctor Who on Blu-ray going, that didn't happen. 624 00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:20.099 That's implausible. 625 00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:23.460 Look at those sets wobbly. 626 00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:28.500 Missy likes her hard science fiction when it starts to be evil trees. 627 00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:32.159 She just gets a little impatient because she's the only one allowed to do the ridiculous plots. 628 00:55:32.219 --> 00:55:34.619 And it turns out to be good trees. 629 00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:36.000 She's really much worse. 630 00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:37.559 All right. 631 00:55:37.619 --> 00:55:38.820 What do you think? 632 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:39.659 I think we finish it off.