Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast speaking to you from inside your
phone.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Todd, and I'm Simon.
Well, philosophers and theologians have for centuries trying to
answer the question, what happens to you when you die, but it
turns out that the only person who got the answer completely right
was Kit Pedler.
It's time to stow our grief and bring out our scepticism.
It's dark water.
I vividly remember watching this the first time, and I think it's
the first time in ages that I had experienced a real sense of
dread while watching the show.
Am I crazy?
No, no, I remember, um, it's kind of funny.
Something I've long criticised Stephen Moffat 4 is, oh, they're
dead.
Okay, so they'll be back next week, yeah?
And right from the very beginning of this one, I'm like, no, no.
This, I think, I think it's Jenna Coleman's performance in the pre
titles makes me go, oh, no, no, everything's going wrong.
In a good way.
Not, not, not that Jenna's bad.
I take issue with the 1st time.
The 1st time in a while, I think there's a, there's something sort
of different here.
Doctor Who always does deaf, and in the Moffat era, then undoes
it.
But here is a real proper attempt to make death scary.
I know that sounds ridiculous. but we've had decades of people
sort of clutching their stomach and then falling over.
But I think the difference is here is that it's a totally
unexpected death and a death that has nothing to do with saving
the earth or saving somebody else by leaping in front of them or
something.
Yeah.
In fact, you kind of imagine...
Yes, I think that that's it.
I think it's really, really properly like a real normal deaf.
And you sort of imagine if Danny's going to die at this point in
the series.
It's going to be Clara's fault in some way because that seems to
be where things are heading, but they don't do that.
And I think that's pretty interesting.
I was really confused because in listen, there was this timeline
where it was obvious that they had gotten together.
So I was there going, oh, this is where we're going with this and
oh, there'll be some clever out, I'm sure.
And then, as you said, that feeling of Jada's episode goes on.
Perhaps there isn't going to be that out.
So I was, yeah, I had a confusion in my mind.
Yeah, I think it's the most upsetting death in Doctor Who, like
seriously, just because, like, because of the tricky way that
Moffatt does it, like Moffatt does a phone thing all the time.
And of course, he's going to do the death that way because we're
not going to get to see it.
Well, normally, at the risk of going into this too much.
Normally, a death would happen of such a significant character
would happen at the very, very end of a story.
And so, you know, there might be a day in more and then there's
the end credits and then it's over, whereas because it's the
beginning of the story of the episode, you are then spending time
dealing with that.
The other difference.
So here, though, which I think which counts as that is because
then he suddenly is appearing in the nether sphere, the character
may be dead in a practical sense, but in a real sense, he's still
alive because we're still seeing him interact with other people.
Do you know what I mean?
So that kind of does dull it.
Yeah.
It makes it more science fiction-y than real.
Yeah, and I think that eventually there is a little bit too much
science fiction in the death and we'll talk about that next week, I
think.
Did you notice as he walks across the park, there's a big thing
like with columns and stuff, which looks a little bit like the
thing that we see missy against in the 1st episode?
Like it's a series of columns with kind of railing around the top
of it.
And it has a weeping angel there.
There's actually like an angel on top of that, like a sculpture.
And so he's kind of hinting at the death.
And then there's a look on Danny's face as he crosses the road as
well, which is striking and noticeable.
Yeah.
I remember at the time, I did feel like the way it's shot, it is
all shot as if he's about to be run over.
It's got those cues, definitely.
And like, we don't get to see the immediate reaction because of
course he pulls that thing where Clara arrives as, you know, the
we don't even properly see it, do we?
But presumably the paramedics are pulling the sheet across or
whatever.
And then we fade and it's 3 weeks later or something.
I think that's a great transition. really good.
Yeah, yeah.
Beautifully shop by Rachel Talloway.
This is her 1st time, isn't it?
Directing and she's going to be back a lot more. she's great.
So she did all 3 Capaldi two-part finales.
She did twice upon a time and she shot David Tennant reappearing
as the 14th doctor as well.
Yeah, and his upcoming 1st schedule.
She's about to write.
And she's directing for series 14 as well.
She's still, like she, she's actually had COVID recently and has
been directing via iPad because I follow her on Instagram.
Dear goodness me.
It really is brilliantly shot, Todd, as you say, and it is
sensitively shot in that we don't see a body, which I think, you
know, because the story deals with death, it has to be very
careful, and I think that's the right choice.
Both for that reason of sensitivity, but also because Clara's not
there when it happens.
So the last time we as the viewer with Clara as our surrogate see
Danny is the last moment he's alive and then we don't see him
again until his virtual self, his soul.
And I think it's also carried by Jenna's just stillness in that
performance, where she has been a character who's always in motion
and always moving.
And, you know, how is your face doing that sort of thing?
And she's just stocked ill.
But her absolute pain and grief. that Jenna conveys in that pre
credits, especially when she's talking to Gran, and then the
doctor like, I'm heard better, and then when the doctor says, what
can I do for you, Clara, you know, we all know where that's
heading, and I think her performance is just tremendous.
But whether you like Clara or not, in the next little sequence
straight after the credits, that's something that, you know, we
need to discuss because, you know, is she being totally
unreasonable with the 7 keys to doomsday, as I thought, as it's
called?
And, you know, that whole sequence.
I mean, I think Steven's riffing a bit here.
Like he's doing one of his tricks taking us down a certain path
for it not to be, you know, all of a dream state.
And I don't know.
I mean, I like, I think it's beautiful. wonderfully performed, but
is it a good thing?
Yeah, so I'm not sure myself.
I'm a bit uneasy about how far it goes.
Do you know what I mean?
with their relationship.
Yep, I think that's deliberate.
So we actually opened there with her on the volcano.
Like we go straight from the opening credits to her at the volcano
before we see how we get there, yeah.
And that volcano is a hellscape, isn't it?
Like a literal hellscape where there's fire and lava and sulphur
and all of that sort of stuff.
And so that's where we're going to go, but she's kind of there
already.
And so that environment is chosen.
Not because it melts tartest keys, but because it shows kind of
where we are in like how she's feeling.
And there is the thing where the doctor says the reason you're
threatening me is that you know that I will say no.
Like, that's the only reason that she goes to these lengths is
because she knows the doctor will say no.
And she says, you know, change it, fix it.
I don't care what the rules are.
You break rules, you rewrite time all the time.
And all of that stuff's true, but she knows that he won't go back
in time and make Danny better and so she has to resort to this.
I think also, it makes the 2 of them kind of conspirators in doing
something really dangerous and quite wrong, I think.
And that's their decision to try and go to the afterlife in the
Tartars.
Yeah.
Something I find very interesting is, like I've said before, that
Clara, as a character, is someone I like less and less as we go
along.
But here, I totally get where she's coming from and I think, here
is a character who has been pushed to her limit, not only because
of what's happened with Danny, but also what has happened with the
doctor and she has stood by him while he's been really quite
unpleasant at points in this season and say with Kill the Moon and
Mummy on the Orient Express, agrees to go on that last adventure
and gets a better understanding of him in order to start
rebuilding their relationship.
And there's that moment where the doctor says sometimes you only
have bad choices, but you still have to choose.
And that's what she's doing here.
Like her, her choices are except that Danny is dead and live
without him and never say I love you to anyone else ever again or
betray her friend.
And she's like, well, doing nothing is a terrible choice.
How much worse can doing something be?
And yeah, it's pretty bad, but I totally get where she's coming
from.
I think it's very dark and it's and it's skating a very thin
line.
And I think that as a viewer or as a fan, you fall on one side or
the other.
So if you really, really like it, right, you're going to love this
if you're uneasy with it, then I can see the end of the season is
not going to necessarily be to your liking.
As I said, like it seems to be all building to the go to hell line
that play on words, which doesn't really quite work.
No.
So I'm, I think it's stunningly active.
And what you were saying about the character of Clara.
I think that Jenna Coleman is absolutely phenomenal in this 2
parter, and it's not necessarily in all of this wrought stuff.
It's also when she doesn't say anything and is in the background
right?
I think Capaldi is amazing, but they're not necessarily very
likeable.
And if I'm just comparing to Amy for a moment, I think that Amy
for me, becomes much more likeable as she comes along except for
that Dalek episode at the beginning of season seven.
And I think that Karen grows as an actress. because I don't think
she's that great at the beginning, whereas I think Jenna is just I
just think she's amazing.
And we had a conversation a long time ago about the Claras that I
liked and didn't like.
Well, I've had a Todd experience.
Oh, not an extreme Todd experience because I was listening to
Colin in the Kilda Moon episode.
That would have to be an extreme type of experience in that
episode.
We won't go back there.
I may have extreme trot experience next episode, but anyway, I
actually think that this version of Clara this season, I think I
previously said that I liked each version of Clara less, but I
actually think this version, including the anniversary special, is
actually better than series 7B, The Impossible Girl.
So I've had I've had a bit of my own experience, listeners, with
this.
But I digress.
This whole key business and and how distraught she is and the
lengths that she'll go to doesn't necessarily, like I think it's
brilliant.
I think it's, as I said, really well acted, but I'm uneasy with
it.
I neither like it nor hate it.
I can see why they're doing it and it's all fine.
And, you know, obviously she's fantastic.
And, you know, she is one of the few companions that goes on and
has a quite an acting career.
Others have less of an acting career after they leave the show.
She's great.
Look, the sequence is great.
It just all for me reeks too much of being set peace and all being
done for effect.
And when I see those sorts of things happening.
You know, we want it to say that we can put it in the trailer.
We want it so that we can start the episode in this really
dramatic way.
Because then afterwards, I know you say it sort of gives them
excuse to go off to the underworld and, you know, go off and try
and go to the afterlife.
But does it?
And then when they get there, it's just forgotten it may as well
have never have happened.
So it's just a series of events that happen so that it's exciting
rather than to actually properly advance the plot.
I want to suggest an alternative way of doing this. which occurred
to me yesterday after watching the 2nd episode, actually.
How effective it would have been to have at the end of that
appalling episode that we had last week.
A sequence where Danny is hit by...
So you have that sequence at the end of the episode.
And it ends ghost black, basically it cuts as he's sort of
stepping across or something like that and then it cuts to black
and then we're wondering what's happened. is dead.
And then we start the next, and we strongly suspect he's dead, and
then we start the next episode with 3 weeks later and so on, and
then we suddenly realise, oh my god, it actually did happen
because that gives the audience time to kind of absorb what's
happened.
And then we kind of are more likely to sort of understand what
Clara's up to.
But yeah, going back to sort of the original thing about the
character, Clara.
I don't just, I don't quite buy it.
You know, I mean, I know we've got a time machine.
You can go back and you can change history. you know, time can be
rewritten, et cetera, et cetera.
But at the same time, I just don't buy that she would ask this.
And certainly I don't buy that she would ask it in this way.
I just want them to get to that decision to go and find Danny to
go and try and go to the afterlife.
I want that to happen in a different way than it does.
I think what I like about it is that we've been worried about the
doctor is the doctor a good man or not.
And I think this is where Clara meets him at his level and there's
a line of dialogue where she says, I don't deserve you, doctor, and
he replies, I'm sorry, Clara, but I'm exactly what you deserve.
And so both of them are doing something really transgressive when
they make the decision to go to the afterlife.
So much so that even though we've been prepared for the weirdness
of that by the rest of this season, where lots of weird things
have happened.
It reminds me of the chase, you know, where the doctor thinks he's
landed in the human subconscious and all go, you can't do that and
the doctor thinks, well, maybe I can.
I don't know.
So maybe I can go to the afterlife. turns out it's just Ghana.
That's right.
No, but the series has done that sort of thing before where it's
kind of explored the super.
It suggested that it might be about to do the supernatural and
then doesn't because it's actually going into the Matrix.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And that is what happens.
But I do think I think that there's something that they are so on
the same level after that performance by Clara after she's
betrayed him.
And, you know, he's able to say to her, no whining, no why me, none
of that sort of stuff.
Don't you know, stop inflating your eyes.
Yes, yes, that's a brilliant thing.
Like, you know, stop that with the eyes.
But isn't it like when he says we're going to hell, right?
Which I, as I said, I don't think quite works, but we're going to
find Danny.
So he's therefore suggesting that Danny is in hell.
Is that right?
Well, he says or the afterlife or whatever.
Yeah, he does actually say that.
I don't think that that quite works because I think you're
unlikely to interpret it as anything other than Capaldi saying go
to hell and it doesn't quite work otherwise.
But I do think from then on, they're conspiring.
They on the same level.
They're much, much more like each other than they've ever been
because she's done this sort of scary immoral thing and he, we're
worried about his morality as well.
So I like that.
And I think for the rest of the episode, they're very much on the
same level.
Yeah.
I will, I will say one thing, I particularly dislike is, um, you
once told me what it would take to Mr. Rotardisky.
Moffat repeatedly does.
Clara once asked me if I dream.
Moffat repeatedly does this thing where someone says, oh, yeah, we
talked about that once.
And it's like, oh, if only there was a writer who gives a script
to every polish, who could have slipped that in somewhere?
But why does it need to be slipped?
We do that all the time with... that's okay.
It just, it really...
Remember at that point when the cameras weren't rolling, you told
me this thing.
But I know about regeneration, says Mel.
Of course.
No, look, I agree.
How does Maldo about regeneration?
Oh, you know.
Because she met the valleyard.
But no, I agree.
It's a problem there as well.
Like, I think the most egregious one is actually from Chipnolin's
by four, which is, now, we've asked adopt plenty of times where
she's from.
It's like, no, no, you haven't, Graham.
It's not a sandwich.
You're not interested.
But, you know, it doesn't totally spoil the scene for me.
But I remember at the time going, oh, again.
I mean, literally the only thing worse than that would be to stop
a scene to have her ask him, what can destroy a tart?
That would be just terrible.
Like back in Robot of Sherwood, like the TARDIS key gets whacked
with something and Clara's like, oh, God, it's survived.
Oh yeah, to take a volcano, destroy it.
You know, make it a throw away line way, way back.
Yeah, fair enough.
I have much lower expectations on that one.
But you do get all this dramatic stuff happening here, and because
we are going into a two-part episode where you're going to have a
lot more of that action in the 2nd part.
Yeah.
And so the rest of this 1st part is the buildup to that
cliffhanger and you are then focussing on, well, where is Danny
and this whole nether sphere stuff, but also the wonderful Missy
and who she is and on all of that anticipation.
So it does take a different turn after the drama and the tension
of all of this, then it does take a step back as you begin to
investigate.
Yeah, in fact, it is kind of a sense in which there's just sort of
one long scene or 2 scenes that we constantly intercart between
which is Danny's arrival in the nether sphere, which happens in
parallel with Clara and the doctor's arrival at 3 W.
And it also has this sort of parallel thing where we both get the
reveal at the same time.
So Danny finds out that the reason his cold is because...
Yeah, people continue experiencing sensations when they're dead.
And that's when Clara and the doctor discover about the don't
cremate me thing.
And then those 2 scenes sort of collapse into one with the phone
call.
So and that's all that happens for the rest of the episode.
Like, it isn't very eventful.
That's sort of, um, again, it's guilty of it's needing to get to
the cliffhanger, which is the reveal of Missy, the cybermen all
coming out of their watery tombs, and, uh, you know, coming out of
St.
Paul's and all that sort of stuff.
Basically, it's a series of set pieces.
The death pre-credit sequence, the volcano sequence, and then
we're just kind of wandering around some corridors.
Well, some very impressive corridors, I shouldn't say it like
that.
But then we're just basically waiting for the climax.
Now, having said that, I love when, you know, scripting does that
where you've got the 2 parallel scenes and they're finding out the
same things and they link to each other and they complement each
other.
But I just think I'd rather have lost some of that earlier parts
so that we could have a bit more of a sensible buildup and
interesting development and find out more about what other people
are thinking about 3W rather than it just being this kind of
isolated thing.
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't sort of go anywhere.
So it's a 3 WWE 3 WWE.
Yeah, invasion of the dinosaurs.
St.
Paul's.
It's funny you should say that about the balance of incident and
exposition.
Because something that Stephen Moffatt wanted to do with this is
he had found with 2 parters in the new series in the past.
The 1st episode would be full of incident, and the 2nd episode
would be full of explanation and people talking standing urgently
in corridors.
So I think what he's done here is he's flipped that and it's not
necessarily totally successful because you still have an episode
full of people standing urgently in corridors.
Or graveyard.
No, I think I think I think the floor with too many of the 2
parters is that they are 2 episodes as like, as in, there's an
episode and then it goes into a second, another episode rather
than it being something that's 90 minutes that's that's chopped in
two.
Yeah, whereas with some allowance for the fact that there's a
break in the middle, obviously, not just, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas this was a one.
I don't think it was here in Australia, but certainly in America
and the UK.
This got a cinema screening.
Oh, really?
Um, limited cinema screenings.
3DM. in 3D, yeah.
3D, goodness me.
About a month and a half after broadcast.
Oh, after, right?
Yeah, sort of bridging because this season, of course, went out
August to November, I think.
So the Christmas special wasn't that far away.
So sort of halfway between the season and that they had these
cinema screenings.
I think there was even a 3D Blu-ray of it available for a little
while.
Do you think this feels more like a 90 minute story rather than 2
separate episodes there?
No.
No?
No, no, no.
I still think it's got the, it's got the division and that's
exacerbated by the fact that unit arrives at the beginning of the
2nd episode.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, obviously that sort of thing happens in plastic.
It's the black orchid problem, isn't it?
Like we don't get the murder until halfway through the actual
story.
And so as a whodunit, it's sort of massively unbalanced and
there's a lot of just sort of facting about in episode one, which
I love.
Like, I'm not complaining.
Well, I suppose, I suppose what I'm trying to say, actually, what
I'm trying to say is that is that the floor is, they start the 1st
episode as if it's only one episode.
And if you're going to have the 90 minutes, I want it to build
because that's the thing, as I've repeated frequently on this
podcast, that I miss about the classic series, is that for all its
other faults, you often, in a four-part story or 6+ story, you get
the sense of it building so that you get the 1st reveal at the end
of part one, and then it sort of goes from there.
Now you still get an expository or, you know, locked up episode 3
sometimes.
But nevertheless, it means more when you get to the climax because
you've had a longer thing.
Whereas for me, in these ones, they're trying to do the climax or
climaxes too quickly so that when you get to the actual climax, I'm
kind of going, well, this is actually, now we're somewhere
completely different to where we started.
Because it's like a different episode.
Yeah, see, I think the, I think the, it's the opposite problem
that we get the episode one reveal halfway through the story and
then we have to do a whole bunch of stuff in the 2nd half.
Like they're stretching episode one.
Yeah.
And this is a longer 2nd half.
I guess the advantage here is that we get more time to see Missy
and we've been teased with Missy throughout the season and more
time with Seb as well.
And I think they're both great.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, spectacular.
I mean, I don't dislike this story.
I don't I don't love it.
But it's one of those ones where I wish, I sort of feel like, oh
this could be so much better.
Because there's so much great stuff in it, most particularly
obviously, Michelle Gomez is just spectacular and the lines that
she's given, but I just want them to take the concept and I want
to throw away this draft and I want it to be, I want it to be
redrafted. you know what I mean?
Because I just think there's a better and more interesting way of
doing it.
They might well be.
But I'm actually quite satisfied with this because of all of those
performances.
Seb is played perfectly by Chris Addison, the right level of
humour, especially with the stuff with the burning of the bodies
and that sort of thing, to try and take a bit of that away with
the cremation.
Like, you know, the fact that he is quite a humourous character is
sort of, I like that it's juxtaposed with what is actually going
on.
And all of his sequences with Danny in the nether sphere, the
promised land, I just think, are beautiful.
I mean, I can ask just how good Samuel Anderson actually is as
Danny Pink.
And I think he's really one of the most underrated actors and
characters.
I mean, the entire history of New Herm.
He, I think, works really well up against Chris Addison, who is
also, from the thick of it, like Capoldi, because there's
something humiliating about how he's being disregarded by
Addison.
Like those scenes are still uncomfortable, even though they're
played for comedy because he's put in this sort of weird science
fiction situation and being patronised by this very strange comedy
character.
There's that hilarious line about, you know, I'm going to get you
to fill in some forms, you might find them relaxing.
No, you won't, but they need to be filthy.
Yeah, that's right.
We've got a burner.
That's so great, isn't it?
I can see my house from here.
Sorry Not helping.
I think the thing in like the dialogue and his performance is that
he recognises he's doing a very boring job.
Like I think he thinks the job is very boring and he's trying to
make it more interesting.
Like the character. if you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think he's good.
Yeah, I definitely think he's good.
Sometimes I wonder whether he steps over the line, a tag from time
to time.
But I mean, it's the way it's written and it certainly it works
and it does juxtapose against Danny's situation very, very, very
very well.
Because, you know, Seb is treating it all as a lark.
Yes.
Chris Addison, of course, is a big Doctor Who fan.
Is he?
And we'll see if we can find this clip for the show notes, but
there's an episode of Have I got news for you that he does hosted
by Tom Baker.
Oh my goodness me.
And at one point, and I want to stress the better, this is from
about 15 years ago, so US politics was very different.
At one point, there's a story about Sarah Palin, and the photo
they use is her of a, in a, in a rather low cut top.
So there is a bit of cleavage happening in the picture.
And after the picture appears, you cut back to Tom and goes, oh
and Chris Addison just slams his hand down on the desk.
I wanted to meet you so much when I was a kid, Tom Baker, so
much.
Now look at it.
And you cut back to Tom just utterly confused and abused.
Yes, yeah.
To have Chris in there.
And it's kind it's kind of funny.
I think, yeah, sometimes the mask slips a little and you get the
impression that, no, he really enjoys screwing around with Danny's
head.
But I think that actually works.
But also having the young boy and the flashbacks to what's gone on
there, extremely well shot by Rachel.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It really struck me this time because it is, you know, it still
looks like a street, like a suburban street.
It's not, you know, like out in the desert or anything. cars and
stuff, but there's houses.
When he's doing the Afghanistan.
Yeah, he's obviously supposed to be Carmel as well, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that is really great.
And apparently the boy, I think his name is Fleming and he's in
episode one.
He's the little boy in the maths class who asks Danny if he's ever
killed anyone.
He gets a credit in this episode.
Yeah, there was meant to be, I think, a remounted flashback to
that scene, to shoot it from a slightly different angle to
emphasise Danny's risk.
Yeah, discomfort.
Yeah.
And also originally the boy that Danny kills did have dialogue
with Danny in the script, but it comes across a bit Moffatt clever
kid dialogue.
And, you know, kids are often a lot more clever than we grown-ups
give them credit for, but I think giving that character that kind
of dialogue would have undermined the trauma and drama of the
situation.
Like, originally he wasn't just meant to appear behind Danny.
He was actually meant to grab Danny's hand at the conclusion of
the episode and say, this time it doesn't have to be that way
which is a great line, but also, you know, it's a bit cow in
silence of the library.
And I think having him quiet, but implying that he is speaking to
Danny off camera is a lot more powerful than anything that could
be written.
I just assumed he couldn't speak English.
Yeah, I agree.
I thought, yeah.
I just assume he was a non-speaking part.
Well, you know, I think that's better.
I do like the fact that Danny tries to reach out to him because
he's a teacher and he cares about children and all of that sort of
thing and right leave.
The kid runs on.
I still think that, and I sort of indicated this early in early
episodes.
I just think this was a bad place to be coming.
Well, see, I...
Yeah, I think that we actually come down on a kind of pro soldier
take.
I think the soldiers win.
And I think that's a problem.
And we'll talk about that, I think, a little bit next week.
No, that's not, okay, that's not what I'm talking about in this
instance.
I'm more talking about the, when you do a science fiction, science
fiction, you know, you highlight current world problems through
allegory and through parallels and stuff like that.
And I think that it's just, I don't think it's just what Doctor
Who should be doing.
You should certainly be dealing with those sorts of issues, but I
don't think you should be doing it using the actual setting and an
actual person from an actual situation that is still very much
present day at the time.
I think we discovered that during this era there were a lot of, or
there was a program to get soldiers fast tracked through their
teacher education to end up being teachers.
And so having a soldier there, like, I kind of think that's okay
that was a thing that we were involved in for a long time.
And, you know, Doctor Who didn't engage with the real world quite
so much in the classic series.
And I always like it a little bit better now that it does do
that.
The reason I say that is because it can never deal with it at a
level which something like this needs to be dealt with.
You know, it's like fear her.
You know, fear her dealing with domestic violence in a way that
appears very real, but it's like, is this something we want Doctor
Who exploring?
Is it capable of exploring it in 45 minutes?
Probably not to any sort of level of meaningful commentary.
I mean, I think fear her does a reasonable job of making the
father scary in a way that is allegorical or alien or not real, you
know, that actually distances it a little bit.
But here.
Look, I think that's probably fair enough.
There are things that Doctor Who isn't capable of dealing with.
But I'd sooner tried to push the boundaries a little bit.
Oh, look, fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I guess part of me, it's too complex.
A part of me in this sort of goes, had Jenna gone at the beginning
of the season and said, I'm definitely leaving before the
Christmas special.
Would that have then influenced where he took the characters or
what he did with Danny and her, right?
Question we'll never know, right?
Because, yeah.
So would that have changed this, right?
Even if she'd come to him halfway through the season?
Like, that's probably too late because he's probably set things in
motion.
So I think we've got what we were always going to get from Steve
and what he wanted to explore.
That's what I'm trying to say, no matter what, you know, whether
we think Doctor can actually have an actual solid handle and
something like this.
I think I'm sort of in agreement with you, Simon, in terms of can
it do the job that we needed to do, to the level that it needs to
be done.
And it certainly goes a long way there, but does it actually hit
the mark fully?
I mean, the whole point is that it has to create a level of guilt
inside him.
Guilt about something, you know, something horrible he feels he's
done early in his life.
So he's going to hit the delete button or hover over the delete
button.
So I get story wise why in this instance it's been put there.
And it's different to the earlier soldier thing.
But I mean, his decision to try and press the button or he's
hovering near the button.
That decision.
Obviously, the boy is reflected in the iPad screen in a fairly
kind of unsubtle way.
But he has also had that conversation with Clara, where he's had
to pull the plug on it to prevent her from following him.
She's made it very clear that she will follow him no matter what
that means.
And so when he says, I love you, I love you.
He's trying to stop her, obviously, from doing that, which I think
is great.
In fact, I thought that the reason that he couldn't say anything
personal is that he's only an approximation of Danny in a way
because, you know, it's like the mind has been sort of captured by
the nether sphere on the point of death.
And so it doesn't have that information, but I don't think the
show works.
No, I don't. that's right.
I think it's supposed to be actually him.
Yeah, yeah.
See, that's one of the scenes that I have a problem with where he
just keeps going, I love you, I love you, and not getting anywhere
their butting heads together.
It's just showing me how those 2 characters actually have been.
But it's him deliberately ignoring her instructions to say
something real.
She says, if you don't give me this information, I am going to
hang up and end this call.
And so he just says I love you and she says, you know, no, no
don't say that.
And he keeps saying it so that she will hang up and so that she
won't keep pursuing him.
I think that's great and it is a very moffity thing to take
something that means a definite thing.
I love you and turn it into something that means something else
entirely.
And there's also the fact that at the beginning of the story, Clara
has said to Danny, no, no, no, the words by themselves don't mean
anything.
Whereas when he's saying them here, they mean everything.
They mean no, you have to go on living.
Yeah.
You know, I'm not that important.
Yeah, it is you have to let me go.
Yeah.
And also Moffatt has said in interviews that the deliberate
subtext, which Peter Capaldi and Rachel Talais were aware of in
the line.
Do you think I care so little for you that betraying me would make
a difference.
Is the doctor saying I love you?
But not in a romantic way, but this Moffatt said, this is the
moment where he actually is conveying his feelings, but he still
can't quite say those words, but this is his way of saying those
words.
It yeah, it just really struck me watching this episode again
these 2 episodes, how the themes of love and forgiveness come
across in ways that aren't just people saying, I love you when I
forgive you.
People take different actions to show those words.
And I think it's one of Moffatt's most thematically rich stories.
And, you know, considering he's done the girl in the fireplace and
the empty child, the doctor dances, which are both about love as
well.
Yeah, I remember liking this at the time, but feeling
uncomfortable with some of the darker tones, but watching it
again.
I'm just like, this is dark and beautiful and lyrical all at once
and it's a Doctor Who story.
Even the title, Dark Water, which gets shoehorned into the action
it's the special x-ray water that means that we can't see the
cycle and exoskeleton.
Which is all just for effect.
Yeah.
Because, I mean, that's what that's okay.
Yeah, obviously.
I mean, people do things for effect.
But there were so many interesting things there they could have
done more with, but it's just a sort of series of set pieces.
Yeah.
Like, that's why I feel it would have been more interesting if the
Darkwater had a played some other role.
Like, what is the point of having all these cybermen in these
tanks with the water hiding their exoskeletons, because what
normal person is going to want to see the decaying corps of their
loved one?
It just doesn't make any sense.
And I know the dark water then kind of is the thing that's
carrying the, I don't know, cybermites, whatever the hell they are
that turns people into cybermen, but it's all a little bit, oh, we
could have this.
And let's do this.
Oh, we should do this.
Oh, and we need to have them coming down the steps of St.
Paul's.
And, you know, and let's just do it all and not really worry about
how it actually, when you sit down and think about it, You go
actually, that's my main problem with it.
See, I think it's just there to be the title.
Like, I think the phrase dark water is so strange and my point.
Yeah, it's a beautiful title, yeah.
So let's let's do that.
Let's explore that rather than, you know, look, I take your
point.
But I do just love the fact that they turn and you as the audience
know that there's something up and you're, like, in classic who
often wants to step ahead of the doctor working things out.
Although there is one point, you know, when the doors close.
Oh, that's fantastic.
I love that sort of thing.
You don't like that?
No, no, no.
When the drawers close, that's fine.
But then the musical sting that goes, no, no, whatever.
I just kind of thought, just hold back a little bit on that.
Turn the volume down.
Just a little bit.
But I love all that, the fact that we're getting to know all
this.
And of course, you know, having Dr. Chang there.
God, I love the way Missy says, I can't do it.
Dr. Chan.
But that reveal, the door's closing with the sidemen eyes, and
that symbol has been the symbol for 3W all the way along.
We do have one fade from Danny, whose eye has a tear in the corner
of it.
We fade across to that symbol inside the 3W institute.
And so that's already done.
And I think the incredible thing about it is that Russell's
insistence when the cybermen were redesigned, the one thing he
said had to happen was that they had to have that little tear in
the corner of the eye, which is in no way what it was intended to
be.
I'm sure it's just there so the actors can see or something.
Like, I'd advise it there in the original...
Also, they could put a drill hole in.
There's no reason for it, but because Russell's cyberman have been
turned emotionless and the thing that defeats them in the 2 parter
in series 2 is he switches their emotions back on and they, you
know, explode and stuff, look in the mirror and blow up or
whatever.
So that's brilliant.
I think that that's really great and it is hinted at, you know
enough.
So that when the things close.
Like, I don't think there's any need to be subtle from then on.
We know what they are.
We've even had a reference to them sitting in tubes and we've had
the shots.
Like the tomb shots. you know?
One of the few things I do like about the 2nd episode, which I
know we're not talking about now, but I won't get a chance to in
the moment.
But is where Danny's begging Clara to turn the emotional inhimitor
on because I think that's what actually gets at something which I
feel has been missed so much with a cyberman is that their
underlying tragedy.
See, I've always sort of seen it, that they're not emotionless
because, you know, some evil person decided to wipe all the
emotions because they'll be more efficient.
They turn their emotions off because they can't handle what
they've become.
And that's the underlying tragedy which is rarely touched on.
But it is in that Cyberman 2 parter in series too.
Yes, that's one of the few times, yeah.
And I think at the end of series 10, where we turn the volume down
on the cybermen, so we don't have to hear that.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And, you know, we, um, a while ago talked about the next doctor, of
course, and as silly as parts of that are, parts.
But the solution hinges on the fact that the doctor reminds Miss
Hartigan of her lost humanity in the coming, and that is what
destroys society men.
Now, even Russell has said he wanted to rework that ending like 2
weeks after they shot it and he realised he, you know, kind of
went too far.
But yeah, I agree with you, Simon.
The sidemen are far more effective when we juxtapose what they
lose.
You know, one of Davison's defining moments is the well-prepared
meal.
Flower, smelling a well-prepared flower.
But in the next episode, except for Danny, we kind of gloss over
that, which is a shame because I think one of the problems I have
with this at the time because I love Cybermen is that they do take
a backseat in the next episode.
But then again...
Yeah, they're taking a backseat to Michelle Gomez.
Yes, it's hard to complain.
Perfectly...
Can I speak in praise of Dr. Chang a bit more?
Yes.
We've got Andrew Leong and this was really one of his 1st major
roles.
He did an earlier drama called Lilting, which is only in briefly
but his boyfriend in that is played by Ben Wishaw.
Yeah, that must be where I recognise him from them.
He's so pretty, isn't he lovely?
And yeah, he's done a lot of other guest spots and other things.
But something I find so interesting about the character is he
seems to be written as a parody somewhat of the last 2 doctors
before Capaldi because he's got the brainy specs and the tight
suit.
He sounds like Matt Smith.
And when he's talking about the properties of Dark War, he's
inappropriately sexual, like we should put this in swimming
pools.
And our doctor now who doesn't go in for that sort of thing like
the last 2 doctors did is why?
And it's, it's, it's kind of that thing now of if someone makes it
an appropriate joke.
The best way to challenge them is go. you explain that?
But the other thing about I love about Dr. Chang, perhaps more so
than Seb, although Seb sort of fills the role as well, is that
they are the master's companions.
And we don't actually get master's companions that often.
But when we do, they're always fabulous and it works so well with
Michelle Gomez because these 2 guys are exactly the kind of
companions that that master would have. terribly gay.
Yes, terrible gay.
Quite pretty.
Quite enthusiastic.
Yeah, when do we get more Changli?
Can we just talk about Michelle?
Oh, can we please just talk about Michelle?
She is unquestionably the possibly the best master ever.
I think she is.
But certainly at least the only one that comes level with
Delgado.
And if I can explain further, apart from the fact that just the
performances are great.
Because like the Delgado master, when you have the doctor and the
master in the room together with a stranger who isn't sure which
one to trust, it's the master who always has to come across as the
more sophisticated, the more in control, the more elegant.
And the doctor should always come across as slightly shambolic and
slightly manic and slightly like he is actually the mad person.
Yeah.
And that's where I think the John Sims master gets it wrong.
That's where I think the Ainley master also gets it wrong.
The Sasha Duan master is unfortunately poorly written, but I would
like to see a better Sasha Duan version.
But Michelle gets it right and also she walks the right side of
the camp line as well.
It's just got to be on that edge and it has to be over the top
without completely cheering the scenery and I think she does it
really, really well.
It's actually interesting that when John Sims comes back in world
enough and time.
It's actually a much better performance because I think it's
written.
I think that comes down to the writing and the way it's written.
And of course, the excellent Moffatt dialogue that he gives her.
It's just it's just perfect.
I mean, there's line after line.
But the way she says it, the way she delivers them.
There's so much going on in the eyes and the eyebrows and the
lips.
I'm not a dalek.
Like, it's just little things like that.
Oh, kissing Capaldi.
And on nose.
Yes. 3 times on the nose.
And then lunging for Jenna with her mouth open as well.
There's so much going on in that performance.
It's so good.
She's so fantastically funny and he gives her one solid murder per
episode in this story and they're quite upsetting.
And, you know, that thing.
Don't be so selfish.
I'll miss him too or whatever.
Or is that...
That's next week.
But she's sort of upset that this has happened as well.
You know, I have to live with this after your death. say something
nice.
So good.
She's so magnificent.
I also like, I'll give you a countdown.
Would that distract you or concentrate?
So she's really, really terrifically, properly funny, and she puts
Capoli on the back foot, and it is the thing where she has to be
more fun than the doctor, and that's what the master should always
be.
The master should be more fun than the doctor.
Normal fun, better.
Like more...
Yeah, yeah.
It's always for me sophistication and elegance, which is what
makes the best master moments.
You know, it's when Delgado's swanning around in a suit and with a
cigar. love those moments.
I think that the big Delgado moment for me is Claus of Axos, where
the doctor's off, being annoying and unpleasant and difficult.
And the master's being sort of super charming and...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's funny what you say with Ainley, because arguably Ainley's 2
best performances in the role are in Planet of Fire and survival
where they give him some really nice suits.
Yeah, but I was going to say, and in both cases, the performance
is more underplayed.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, you know, he's playing chameleon, which gives him another
scope.
And again, he gets a rapport with Perry in that story.
You give the master a rapport with a companion and it improves
them immeasurably.
And even with Dwan, as you were saying, stick with me, Yaz.
Yeah.
And then in power of the doctor, again, when he's bored with
talking to the doctor, he talks to Yaz.
Yeah.
Your dad was rubbish.
But Michelle is just magnetic.
That kissing scene, there's a take where she's holding Clara's
hand while she's kissing the top.
Really?
It's one of the, she's one of those actresses where it's different
each time.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think also it was meant to foreshadow her explaining her
link to Clara in the next episode.
Moffatt had 2 or 3 ideas as to who the woman in the shop was.
One of them was the master, but another idea he had was, it's a
Clara Splinter who was born in 1920 who made our...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think he sort of came to the conclusion.
No, it's much more fun if it's if it's the master putting the
doctor and Clara together and putting the ad in the paper in deep
breath.
Yeah.
I just love all the dialogue and the whole reveal, like when
they're out on the street and she's talking about a ranting
Scotsman, and then that close, when they're close together, and
you think that she's going to deliver the dialogue of who she is
but then the doctor has to give that extra, that, like, who's
missy?
that extra bit that it has to go.
I couldn't keep calling myself master.
Like, it's just, oh, it's just delicious.
Like all of that performance intercut. with what's going on with
Danny and the whole direction.
Like, I just, this is not my favourite episode 11 or, but it's
it's, I just think, despite what we've said earlier about
advancing the plot and that sort of thing.
It is so rich in what it delivers, that I really, really enjoyed
this so much.
Like, this is a 9 out of 10, 9 out of 10 for me.
Like it's not never going to be my favourite, but I just really
buy into the whole thing.
I mean, 9 is far too excessive for me, but that's why I'm sort of
saying that I don't love it, but I don't hate it.
I'm certainly enjoying it, but I just think, oh, I wish I wish you
could have done it better.
But also I love with Michelle Gomez, there are so many of those
lines that are just thrown away.
Like, oh, time lady.
I'm old-fashioned.
You know, it's it's that and I think that's what makes a great
performance as well.
It's not every, every line is not important.
No She can read it and be directed.
Well, I think it's more her, probably. that she can throw away
those lines.
Well, she knows how to deliver those sorts of lines.
I think is as much of what it is.
No, no, just, just, just sublime.
It's so good, isn't it?
I just think she is the character working properly.
Perhaps fully for the 1st time.
Yeah, and what I was going to say a moment ago is that that sense
that we get from her master is how close the doctor and she were
as children.
Which is kind of always suggested that, oh, yes, they were friends
in school or college or whatever the hell it was.
Whereas I actually get a real sense that she really likes him, that
they're actually very close.
It's like that line in the next season.
You know, I see that couple over there.
You're the dog.
That whole reveal, like I actually went onto YouTube and I watched
people react all the reactions to it, and there was this one poor
unfortunate boy who would have been a teenager, and he was saying
it at the same time, and instead of saying the master, It was the
Mistress Romana.
That's what he wanted it to be, like it actually says like the
Mistress Romana.
And then you see the look on his face when it's like missy and how
devastated he is that it's actually not because he never thought
that the master would be a woman.
A woman.
So props to Moffatt for making the master a woman.
We kind of forget.
Like he, he, he paves the way.
He paves the way.
And he does that with diversity a bit like with Rachel
Tallalalay's, you know, she's the 1st woman to direct an episode
since like series 2 or something or three.
Really?
Is it Catherine Tregana?
Yeah, I think there was Alice Troughton in series 3 and then we
haven't had...
Yes, that's right We haven't, like, that's a thing that he's done
and then, obviously, Chris Chibnall took it further.
He'd never managed to get it quite far enough.
And I'm kind of a little bit happy that we didn't get a female
doctor from Stephen Moffat, to be honest.
But, like, the character works as a woman and that reveal could
not have worked if it had been anything else other than the
master.
The Rani.
Yeah, so no, of course not.
Of course not.
That's the reason.
Who cares?
You know, the Rani was in 2 episodes before most of the audience
were born.
Yes, we call them stories, but...
Vivian Faye.
Yep, yeah.
Well, yes.
It's a Sarah Diplos.
I don't think it's a surprise to anyone in the room or anyone
listening at home that I freaking love the Rani.
But even I have kind of thought there's no reason to bring the
Rani back.
You know, the Rani is a very 80s villain with the dynasty era.
Well, dynasty era with the portrayal, but also a sort of DNA mad
scientist is a very 1980s horror movie idea.
But I have to say, in common with that young man's disappointment
when she said the Time Lord, you abandoned and then Mistress.
I thought it was Roman. by Susan.
Romana.
I thought it was evil Romana, because the BBC books, the 8th
doctor novels, had done an amoral 30 incarnation of Romana, at
sort of at the dawn of the time war before it was called.
Well, what would have been the worst outcome was had it been Evil
Romana, who actually then is subsequently the Rani, which is how
the, like, it's like the Rani's origin story.
I really would have punched the screen.
But if I can say it's not...
It's not it's not so much the fact that who cares if it was the
Rani?
Because I think there's no reason if you wanted to have the Rani
come back.
But you cannot have a season-long build up and then it'd be there
aren't. you know what I mean?
If you're going to have the Rani back, you just have her in an
episode.
Yeah, like the macro, like the, for example.
The macro coming back is great because it happens without fanfare
without buildup, they're just there.
Yeah, if I can imagine a season-long reveal where it's the fish
people from there.
Oh, going to be wonderful.
Well, it looks like there's a lot of cybermen about, so we're
off.
We'll catch you next week, along with everyone who has ever died
ever, in death in heaven.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety
com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter
and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger
Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek Project.
Until next time, rest in peace, we promise.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
Bye for now.
I'm going to go punch Cyber Savile in the face.
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Beelby, Nathan
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Simon Moore.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, terribly gay, was recorded on the 4th of June 2023
and released on the 25th of June.
Darkwater screened when I was 45 years old, but had it aired when
I was 10, and I found out then that I could come back from the
dead as a 2nd rate Doctor Who Monster, from then on, I think, I
would have been much, much less careful crossing the road.
Oh, God, Murray Gold does the chromophone band for 5 minutes.
And that's it.
How do people feel?
I actually really like the, the idea of ending with the season
longer of the, season long arc leading to the reveal of the fish
people.
Yeah, that was good.
I think we've said everything, everything else I have to say is
actually more applicable to the next episode.
Yeah, I mean, which is appalling.
I don't think it's appalling but I do think it's bad in all sorts
of ways.
It's unfortunate, but I still enjoy myself because it's got lots
of fabulous, like killing Osgood is just so great.
She comes she does come back.
Well, because she was already to Osgood's in Day of the Doctor.
Yeah.
Oh, of course, of course, of course.
And so when they bring her back, it's in a Zigon story.
Yes, yes, we get to have a...
Yeah, I mean, to me, it's that thing.
It starts, what it does is it turns into the RTD style finale
which is...
Well, I don't think it's enough like that.
Well, no, because it's all just, it's all just a whole lot of
extraordinary stuff happening, but I'm just going through going, I
just don't care.
I don't care.
Like, it's all big playing things and... love all of that.
But no, but all the part I love is everything apart from that.
Like it's all of the sequences with Missy and Osgood.
It's all the doctor talking.
That thing, the countdown.
That's where they came down to cemetery.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. where I'll give you a countdown.
Yeah, yeah.
And where she says, I'm not important or something.
It's like, you should have some more confidence in yourself.
Like it's so great.
When did she say, when did she say I like the accent?
I'll keep it.
Oh, that's in it.
That's in deep breath.
Oh, that's a deep breath.
Spoiler alert, Simon.
I'm going to have a todd experience. next episode.
You're gonna love it.
Did you hate it the 1st time I rated you?
I did not particularly like a lot of aspects.
But I mean, also... very middling, but it's gone up substantially
enough.
It's just...
Well, I just think I think everyone being dead.
Like, I think literally everyone who's ever died comes back as a
cyberman.
Like, I think maybe that's too much.
But then I hate people who say that Dodo is out there, yes.
When I 1st watched it, I was furious about the cyber dad.
Yes. cyber break.
Yeah.
No, I'm still furious about it.
I cried this time.
No.
I'm sorry, I had a complete...
I had an extreme trot experience and I look on it very differently
now.
I like I like to think like a visual metaphor of the extreme Todd
experience for the blister at home is Todd going skydiving and
then as he lands going, Delta and the Batterman's fine.
Brendan, on 2 counts, that will never...
No, it's just, it's just, it just could have been so much more
interesting and much more dramatic and have an actual build.
It's just the whole the whole thing just...
I think it's a bit of a mess.
But I do think that it's an entertaining mess.
Of course, they're always entertaining.
But that's all right.
There are worse ambitions to have.
I want more.
Yeah.
Yeah, you get more next year, I guess, is, you know, having set in
hell band.
Oh, they're much better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, this was a retro.
For me, this is a retrograde step in the finale.
Yeah, but I mean, it is also like the, the, St.
Paul's dome opens and...
Oh, that's supposed to be.
I think this is the face of it.
I think there's a lot to really love in the finale.
There is a lot to love in the finale.
But there are some things.
But there are some substantial things.
No, just some.
I love the, there's the, the Sylvia Anderson line.
Do you remember that?
Like, he says, can we go to cloud base?
The doctor says, can we go to climb?
Yes, yes.
And oh, as good, correct.
Simmons says, no, that's the Thunderbirds.
It was the valley, that Kyle Bayes is the Thunderbirds.
And then general...
Yeah, general thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know, for God's sake, says, no, that was Captain Scarlett.
And the doctor goes, you can, like, I'm so, I'm really excited to
be in your care.
But me and Sylvia Anderson.
You never saw a fox trot like it.
Like, that is great.
I also didn't like the whole president of earth thing.
It's like, no, no, no, doctor's supposed to be. all that kind of
stuff.
And I don't like destroying planes because I have a phobia.
Well, we never actually see the plane destroyed.
No, but they all get out of it alone.
I'm sorry, everybody gets sucked out. you know, but it just it
just triggers me.
Oh, it does explode.
I do mean...
And then he explodes bell, then the master has them explode
Belgium as well.
Because they're not even French.
Did you see that thing?
In Korea, Korean Airlines, someone passenger as it was coming into
land, open the door.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What happened?
Everyone survived because it was close because they were
relatively close to the ground.
It was just a bit brief.
Did he survive?
I think so. yes Yeah, he was restrained.
Yeah, yeah.
So he must have opened the door, but then stood back.
Because there was no, because usually it's not that because when
it happens at altitude, of course, has the air pressure
differential. that's when you do get sucked out.
But wouldn't you if you were moving really fast within the air
pressure outside below?
I don't know anything about physics.
No, no, no, but if you're moving, like, like, if you're moving, if
you're low enough, it's the, you get sucked out.
If you're low enough.
It doesn't matter.
That's why like when people are doing skydiving, they open the
plane.
Oh yes, of course.
They're not all...
They don't just get sucked.
They have to make them. choice.
Yes, exactly.
But I do feel sorry for Osgood because, like, she's killed off in
a plane in this episode and then in the Zigon 2 part, she and
Capaldi have to parachute out of a plane that's blown up.
But that's a different Osgood.
So she didn't experience that.
All right.
Just before you do, I've got one more thing to say.
I was in the cockpit when the captain got sucked out.
Oh my god.
Fast forward.
The Air Stewarts.