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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:04:07

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast speaking to you from inside your

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phone.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm Simon.

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Well, philosophers and theologians have for centuries trying to

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answer the question, what happens to you when you die, but it

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turns out that the only person who got the answer completely right

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was Kit Pedler.

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It's time to stow our grief and bring out our scepticism.

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It's dark water.

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I vividly remember watching this the first time, and I think it's

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the first time in ages that I had experienced a real sense of

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dread while watching the show.

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Am I crazy?

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No, no, I remember, um, it's kind of funny.

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Something I've long criticised Stephen Moffat 4 is, oh, they're

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dead.

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Okay, so they'll be back next week, yeah?

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And right from the very beginning of this one, I'm like, no, no.

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This, I think, I think it's Jenna Coleman's performance in the pre

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titles makes me go, oh, no, no, everything's going wrong.

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In a good way.

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Not, not, not that Jenna's bad.

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I take issue with the 1st time.

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The 1st time in a while, I think there's a, there's something sort

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of different here.

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Doctor Who always does deaf, and in the Moffat era, then undoes

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it.

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But here is a real proper attempt to make death scary.

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I know that sounds ridiculous. but we've had decades of people

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sort of clutching their stomach and then falling over.

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But I think the difference is here is that it's a totally

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unexpected death and a death that has nothing to do with saving

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the earth or saving somebody else by leaping in front of them or

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something.

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Yeah.

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In fact, you kind of imagine...

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Yes, I think that that's it.

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I think it's really, really properly like a real normal deaf.

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And you sort of imagine if Danny's going to die at this point in

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the series.

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It's going to be Clara's fault in some way because that seems to

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be where things are heading, but they don't do that.

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And I think that's pretty interesting.

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I was really confused because in listen, there was this timeline

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where it was obvious that they had gotten together.

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So I was there going, oh, this is where we're going with this and

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oh, there'll be some clever out, I'm sure.

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And then, as you said, that feeling of Jada's episode goes on.

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Perhaps there isn't going to be that out.

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So I was, yeah, I had a confusion in my mind.

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Yeah, I think it's the most upsetting death in Doctor Who, like

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seriously, just because, like, because of the tricky way that

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Moffatt does it, like Moffatt does a phone thing all the time.

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And of course, he's going to do the death that way because we're

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not going to get to see it.

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Well, normally, at the risk of going into this too much.

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Normally, a death would happen of such a significant character

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would happen at the very, very end of a story.

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And so, you know, there might be a day in more and then there's

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the end credits and then it's over, whereas because it's the

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beginning of the story of the episode, you are then spending time

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dealing with that.

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The other difference.

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So here, though, which I think which counts as that is because

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then he suddenly is appearing in the nether sphere, the character

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may be dead in a practical sense, but in a real sense, he's still

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alive because we're still seeing him interact with other people.

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Do you know what I mean?

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So that kind of does dull it.

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Yeah.

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It makes it more science fiction-y than real.

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Yeah, and I think that eventually there is a little bit too much

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science fiction in the death and we'll talk about that next week, I

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think.

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Did you notice as he walks across the park, there's a big thing

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like with columns and stuff, which looks a little bit like the

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thing that we see missy against in the 1st episode?

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Like it's a series of columns with kind of railing around the top

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of it.

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And it has a weeping angel there.

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There's actually like an angel on top of that, like a sculpture.

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And so he's kind of hinting at the death.

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And then there's a look on Danny's face as he crosses the road as

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well, which is striking and noticeable.

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Yeah.

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I remember at the time, I did feel like the way it's shot, it is

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all shot as if he's about to be run over.

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It's got those cues, definitely.

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And like, we don't get to see the immediate reaction because of

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course he pulls that thing where Clara arrives as, you know, the

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we don't even properly see it, do we?

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But presumably the paramedics are pulling the sheet across or

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whatever.

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And then we fade and it's 3 weeks later or something.

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I think that's a great transition. really good.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Beautifully shop by Rachel Talloway.

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This is her 1st time, isn't it?

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Directing and she's going to be back a lot more. she's great.

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So she did all 3 Capaldi two-part finales.

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She did twice upon a time and she shot David Tennant reappearing

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as the 14th doctor as well.

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Yeah, and his upcoming 1st schedule.

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She's about to write.

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And she's directing for series 14 as well.

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She's still, like she, she's actually had COVID recently and has

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been directing via iPad because I follow her on Instagram.

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Dear goodness me.

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It really is brilliantly shot, Todd, as you say, and it is

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sensitively shot in that we don't see a body, which I think, you

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know, because the story deals with death, it has to be very

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careful, and I think that's the right choice.

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Both for that reason of sensitivity, but also because Clara's not

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there when it happens.

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So the last time we as the viewer with Clara as our surrogate see

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Danny is the last moment he's alive and then we don't see him

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again until his virtual self, his soul.

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And I think it's also carried by Jenna's just stillness in that

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performance, where she has been a character who's always in motion

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and always moving.

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And, you know, how is your face doing that sort of thing?

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And she's just stocked ill.

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But her absolute pain and grief. that Jenna conveys in that pre

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credits, especially when she's talking to Gran, and then the

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doctor like, I'm heard better, and then when the doctor says, what

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can I do for you, Clara, you know, we all know where that's

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heading, and I think her performance is just tremendous.

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But whether you like Clara or not, in the next little sequence

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straight after the credits, that's something that, you know, we

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need to discuss because, you know, is she being totally

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unreasonable with the 7 keys to doomsday, as I thought, as it's

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called?

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And, you know, that whole sequence.

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I mean, I think Steven's riffing a bit here.

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Like he's doing one of his tricks taking us down a certain path

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for it not to be, you know, all of a dream state.

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And I don't know.

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I mean, I like, I think it's beautiful. wonderfully performed, but

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is it a good thing?

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Yeah, so I'm not sure myself.

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I'm a bit uneasy about how far it goes.

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Do you know what I mean?

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with their relationship.

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Yep, I think that's deliberate.

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So we actually opened there with her on the volcano.

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Like we go straight from the opening credits to her at the volcano

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before we see how we get there, yeah.

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And that volcano is a hellscape, isn't it?

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Like a literal hellscape where there's fire and lava and sulphur

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and all of that sort of stuff.

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And so that's where we're going to go, but she's kind of there

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already.

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And so that environment is chosen.

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Not because it melts tartest keys, but because it shows kind of

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where we are in like how she's feeling.

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And there is the thing where the doctor says the reason you're

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threatening me is that you know that I will say no.

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Like, that's the only reason that she goes to these lengths is

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because she knows the doctor will say no.

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And she says, you know, change it, fix it.

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I don't care what the rules are.

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You break rules, you rewrite time all the time.

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And all of that stuff's true, but she knows that he won't go back

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in time and make Danny better and so she has to resort to this.

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I think also, it makes the 2 of them kind of conspirators in doing

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something really dangerous and quite wrong, I think.

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And that's their decision to try and go to the afterlife in the

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Tartars.

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Yeah.

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Something I find very interesting is, like I've said before, that

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Clara, as a character, is someone I like less and less as we go

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along.

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But here, I totally get where she's coming from and I think, here

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is a character who has been pushed to her limit, not only because

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of what's happened with Danny, but also what has happened with the

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doctor and she has stood by him while he's been really quite

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unpleasant at points in this season and say with Kill the Moon and

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Mummy on the Orient Express, agrees to go on that last adventure

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and gets a better understanding of him in order to start

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rebuilding their relationship.

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And there's that moment where the doctor says sometimes you only

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have bad choices, but you still have to choose.

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And that's what she's doing here.

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Like her, her choices are except that Danny is dead and live

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without him and never say I love you to anyone else ever again or

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betray her friend.

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And she's like, well, doing nothing is a terrible choice.

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How much worse can doing something be?

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And yeah, it's pretty bad, but I totally get where she's coming

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from.

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I think it's very dark and it's and it's skating a very thin

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line.

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And I think that as a viewer or as a fan, you fall on one side or

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the other.

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So if you really, really like it, right, you're going to love this

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if you're uneasy with it, then I can see the end of the season is

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not going to necessarily be to your liking.

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As I said, like it seems to be all building to the go to hell line

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that play on words, which doesn't really quite work.

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No.

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So I'm, I think it's stunningly active.

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And what you were saying about the character of Clara.

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I think that Jenna Coleman is absolutely phenomenal in this 2

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parter, and it's not necessarily in all of this wrought stuff.

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It's also when she doesn't say anything and is in the background

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right?

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I think Capaldi is amazing, but they're not necessarily very

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likeable.

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And if I'm just comparing to Amy for a moment, I think that Amy

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for me, becomes much more likeable as she comes along except for

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that Dalek episode at the beginning of season seven.

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And I think that Karen grows as an actress. because I don't think

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she's that great at the beginning, whereas I think Jenna is just I

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just think she's amazing.

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And we had a conversation a long time ago about the Claras that I

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liked and didn't like.

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Well, I've had a Todd experience.

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Oh, not an extreme Todd experience because I was listening to

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Colin in the Kilda Moon episode.

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That would have to be an extreme type of experience in that

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episode.

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We won't go back there.

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I may have extreme trot experience next episode, but anyway, I

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actually think that this version of Clara this season, I think I

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previously said that I liked each version of Clara less, but I

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actually think this version, including the anniversary special, is

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actually better than series 7B, The Impossible Girl.

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So I've had I've had a bit of my own experience, listeners, with

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this.

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But I digress.

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This whole key business and and how distraught she is and the

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lengths that she'll go to doesn't necessarily, like I think it's

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brilliant.

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I think it's, as I said, really well acted, but I'm uneasy with

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it.

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I neither like it nor hate it.

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I can see why they're doing it and it's all fine.

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And, you know, obviously she's fantastic.

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And, you know, she is one of the few companions that goes on and

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has a quite an acting career.

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Others have less of an acting career after they leave the show.

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She's great.

246
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:28.740
Look, the sequence is great.

247
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:33.840
It just all for me reeks too much of being set peace and all being

248
00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:34.559
done for effect.

249
00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:37.019
And when I see those sorts of things happening.

250
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:38.820
You know, we want it to say that we can put it in the trailer.

251
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:40.740
We want it so that we can start the episode in this really

252
00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:41.399
dramatic way.

253
00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:45.240
Because then afterwards, I know you say it sort of gives them

254
00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.700
excuse to go off to the underworld and, you know, go off and try

255
00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:48.720
and go to the afterlife.

256
00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:49.919
But does it?

257
00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:53.340
And then when they get there, it's just forgotten it may as well

258
00:13:53.340 --> 00:13:54.360
have never have happened.

259
00:13:54.419 --> 00:13:58.019
So it's just a series of events that happen so that it's exciting

260
00:13:58.019 --> 00:14:01.200
rather than to actually properly advance the plot.

261
00:14:01.259 --> 00:14:05.639
I want to suggest an alternative way of doing this. which occurred

262
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.039
to me yesterday after watching the 2nd episode, actually.

263
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.639
How effective it would have been to have at the end of that

264
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:13.919
appalling episode that we had last week.

265
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.360
A sequence where Danny is hit by...

266
00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:20.580
So you have that sequence at the end of the episode.

267
00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:25.139
And it ends ghost black, basically it cuts as he's sort of

268
00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:27.299
stepping across or something like that and then it cuts to black

269
00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:29.940
and then we're wondering what's happened. is dead.

270
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.779
And then we start the next, and we strongly suspect he's dead, and

271
00:14:33.779 --> 00:14:37.860
then we start the next episode with 3 weeks later and so on, and

272
00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:39.840
then we suddenly realise, oh my god, it actually did happen

273
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.179
because that gives the audience time to kind of absorb what's

274
00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:42.419
happened.

275
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:46.080
And then we kind of are more likely to sort of understand what

276
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:47.159
Clara's up to.

277
00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:49.679
But yeah, going back to sort of the original thing about the

278
00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:50.399
character, Clara.

279
00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:52.200
I don't just, I don't quite buy it.

280
00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:55.200
You know, I mean, I know we've got a time machine.

281
00:14:55.259 --> 00:14:57.840
You can go back and you can change history. you know, time can be

282
00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:59.159
rewritten, et cetera, et cetera.

283
00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:02.460
But at the same time, I just don't buy that she would ask this.

284
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:04.440
And certainly I don't buy that she would ask it in this way.

285
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:07.799
I just want them to get to that decision to go and find Danny to

286
00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.779
go and try and go to the afterlife.

287
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:11.580
I want that to happen in a different way than it does.

288
00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:17.100
I think what I like about it is that we've been worried about the

289
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:19.379
doctor is the doctor a good man or not.

290
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:24.659
And I think this is where Clara meets him at his level and there's

291
00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:28.559
a line of dialogue where she says, I don't deserve you, doctor, and

292
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:32.460
he replies, I'm sorry, Clara, but I'm exactly what you deserve.

293
00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:38.700
And so both of them are doing something really transgressive when

294
00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:40.980
they make the decision to go to the afterlife.

295
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.360
So much so that even though we've been prepared for the weirdness

296
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:49.440
of that by the rest of this season, where lots of weird things

297
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:50.039
have happened.

298
00:15:50.340 --> 00:15:53.820
It reminds me of the chase, you know, where the doctor thinks he's

299
00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:57.360
landed in the human subconscious and all go, you can't do that and

300
00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:58.980
the doctor thinks, well, maybe I can.

301
00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:00.480
I don't know.

302
00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:04.740
So maybe I can go to the afterlife. turns out it's just Ghana.

303
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:05.879
That's right.

304
00:16:05.940 --> 00:16:08.159
No, but the series has done that sort of thing before where it's

305
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:09.899
kind of explored the super.

306
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.600
It suggested that it might be about to do the supernatural and

307
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.759
then doesn't because it's actually going into the Matrix.

308
00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:16.080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

309
00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:16.440
Yeah.

310
00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:17.700
And that is what happens.

311
00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:23.820
But I do think I think that there's something that they are so on

312
00:16:23.820 --> 00:16:29.460
the same level after that performance by Clara after she's

313
00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:30.779
betrayed him.

314
00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:36.120
And, you know, he's able to say to her, no whining, no why me, none

315
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:37.139
of that sort of stuff.

316
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.720
Don't you know, stop inflating your eyes.

317
00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.019
Yes, yes, that's a brilliant thing.

318
00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:44.700
Like, you know, stop that with the eyes.

319
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:48.480
But isn't it like when he says we're going to hell, right?

320
00:16:48.539 --> 00:16:52.080
Which I, as I said, I don't think quite works, but we're going to

321
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:52.679
find Danny.

322
00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:55.500
So he's therefore suggesting that Danny is in hell.

323
00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:56.100
Is that right?

324
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:58.679
Well, he says or the afterlife or whatever.

325
00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:01.019
Yeah, he does actually say that.

326
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.619
I don't think that that quite works because I think you're

327
00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:07.980
unlikely to interpret it as anything other than Capaldi saying go

328
00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:10.920
to hell and it doesn't quite work otherwise.

329
00:17:10.980 --> 00:17:13.799
But I do think from then on, they're conspiring.

330
00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:14.819
They on the same level.

331
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.700
They're much, much more like each other than they've ever been

332
00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:22.559
because she's done this sort of scary immoral thing and he, we're

333
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.180
worried about his morality as well.

334
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:25.619
So I like that.

335
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.619
And I think for the rest of the episode, they're very much on the

336
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:28.920
same level.

337
00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:29.640
Yeah.

338
00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:34.920
I will, I will say one thing, I particularly dislike is, um, you

339
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.140
once told me what it would take to Mr. Rotardisky.

340
00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.240
Moffat repeatedly does.

341
00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:40.799
Clara once asked me if I dream.

342
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.240
Moffat repeatedly does this thing where someone says, oh, yeah, we

343
00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:45.839
talked about that once.

344
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:49.500
And it's like, oh, if only there was a writer who gives a script

345
00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:51.599
to every polish, who could have slipped that in somewhere?

346
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:53.160
But why does it need to be slipped?

347
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.799
We do that all the time with... that's okay.

348
00:17:55.859 --> 00:17:57.720
It just, it really...

349
00:17:57.779 --> 00:18:01.019
Remember at that point when the cameras weren't rolling, you told

350
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:01.559
me this thing.

351
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.519
But I know about regeneration, says Mel.

352
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:07.259
Of course.

353
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.599
No, look, I agree.

354
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:11.279
How does Maldo about regeneration?

355
00:18:11.339 --> 00:18:12.059
Oh, you know.

356
00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:13.079
Because she met the valleyard.

357
00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:14.700
But no, I agree.

358
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:15.779
It's a problem there as well.

359
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.799
Like, I think the most egregious one is actually from Chipnolin's

360
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.619
by four, which is, now, we've asked adopt plenty of times where

361
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:23.039
she's from.

362
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:25.380
It's like, no, no, you haven't, Graham.

363
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.299
It's not a sandwich.

364
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:28.019
You're not interested.

365
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.039
But, you know, it doesn't totally spoil the scene for me.

366
00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:34.440
But I remember at the time going, oh, again.

367
00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:38.039
I mean, literally the only thing worse than that would be to stop

368
00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.700
a scene to have her ask him, what can destroy a tart?

369
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:42.539
That would be just terrible.

370
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:47.640
Like back in Robot of Sherwood, like the TARDIS key gets whacked

371
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.799
with something and Clara's like, oh, God, it's survived.

372
00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:51.359
Oh yeah, to take a volcano, destroy it.

373
00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:53.819
You know, make it a throw away line way, way back.

374
00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:54.960
Yeah, fair enough.

375
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:57.960
I have much lower expectations on that one.

376
00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:17.819
But you do get all this dramatic stuff happening here, and because

377
00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:21.240
we are going into a two-part episode where you're going to have a

378
00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:22.740
lot more of that action in the 2nd part.

379
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:23.579
Yeah.

380
00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:26.099
And so the rest of this 1st part is the buildup to that

381
00:19:26.099 --> 00:19:28.980
cliffhanger and you are then focussing on, well, where is Danny

382
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:34.319
and this whole nether sphere stuff, but also the wonderful Missy

383
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.799
and who she is and on all of that anticipation.

384
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:42.359
So it does take a different turn after the drama and the tension

385
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:45.000
of all of this, then it does take a step back as you begin to

386
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:45.420
investigate.

387
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.619
Yeah, in fact, it is kind of a sense in which there's just sort of

388
00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:53.460
one long scene or 2 scenes that we constantly intercart between

389
00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:57.119
which is Danny's arrival in the nether sphere, which happens in

390
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:01.980
parallel with Clara and the doctor's arrival at 3 W.

391
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:06.960
And it also has this sort of parallel thing where we both get the

392
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.839
reveal at the same time.

393
00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:15.660
So Danny finds out that the reason his cold is because...

394
00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:18.900
Yeah, people continue experiencing sensations when they're dead.

395
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.680
And that's when Clara and the doctor discover about the don't

396
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:23.640
cremate me thing.

397
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.640
And then those 2 scenes sort of collapse into one with the phone

398
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:27.119
call.

399
00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:29.700
So and that's all that happens for the rest of the episode.

400
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.680
Like, it isn't very eventful.

401
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:37.920
That's sort of, um, again, it's guilty of it's needing to get to

402
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.940
the cliffhanger, which is the reveal of Missy, the cybermen all

403
00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:46.200
coming out of their watery tombs, and, uh, you know, coming out of

404
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:46.440
St.

405
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:47.519
Paul's and all that sort of stuff.

406
00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:49.559
Basically, it's a series of set pieces.

407
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:53.160
The death pre-credit sequence, the volcano sequence, and then

408
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:55.859
we're just kind of wandering around some corridors.

409
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.200
Well, some very impressive corridors, I shouldn't say it like

410
00:20:58.200 --> 00:20:58.380
that.

411
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.619
But then we're just basically waiting for the climax.

412
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.160
Now, having said that, I love when, you know, scripting does that

413
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:07.440
where you've got the 2 parallel scenes and they're finding out the

414
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.019
same things and they link to each other and they complement each

415
00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:10.259
other.

416
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:14.160
But I just think I'd rather have lost some of that earlier parts

417
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.099
so that we could have a bit more of a sensible buildup and

418
00:21:17.099 --> 00:21:20.519
interesting development and find out more about what other people

419
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:22.680
are thinking about 3W rather than it just being this kind of

420
00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:23.460
isolated thing.

421
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.799
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't sort of go anywhere.

422
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.380
So it's a 3 WWE 3 WWE.

423
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:29.640
Yeah, invasion of the dinosaurs.

424
00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:32.640
St.

425
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:33.059
Paul's.

426
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:38.819
It's funny you should say that about the balance of incident and

427
00:21:38.819 --> 00:21:39.420
exposition.

428
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.359
Because something that Stephen Moffatt wanted to do with this is

429
00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:46.019
he had found with 2 parters in the new series in the past.

430
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.900
The 1st episode would be full of incident, and the 2nd episode

431
00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:52.500
would be full of explanation and people talking standing urgently

432
00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:53.220
in corridors.

433
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.180
So I think what he's done here is he's flipped that and it's not

434
00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:00.180
necessarily totally successful because you still have an episode

435
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:03.059
full of people standing urgently in corridors.

436
00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:04.440
Or graveyard.

437
00:22:04.500 --> 00:22:08.819
No, I think I think I think the floor with too many of the 2

438
00:22:08.819 --> 00:22:13.740
parters is that they are 2 episodes as like, as in, there's an

439
00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:16.619
episode and then it goes into a second, another episode rather

440
00:22:16.619 --> 00:22:19.859
than it being something that's 90 minutes that's that's chopped in

441
00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:20.099
two.

442
00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:22.920
Yeah, whereas with some allowance for the fact that there's a

443
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:24.720
break in the middle, obviously, not just, you know.

444
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:25.559
Yeah, yeah.

445
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:27.480
Whereas this was a one.

446
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:30.480
I don't think it was here in Australia, but certainly in America

447
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:31.319
and the UK.

448
00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:32.579
This got a cinema screening.

449
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.180
Oh, really?

450
00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:34.559
Um, limited cinema screenings.

451
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:36.180
3DM. in 3D, yeah.

452
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.140
3D, goodness me.

453
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.000
About a month and a half after broadcast.

454
00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:40.140
Oh, after, right?

455
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:43.740
Yeah, sort of bridging because this season, of course, went out

456
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:45.960
August to November, I think.

457
00:22:46.019 --> 00:22:48.480
So the Christmas special wasn't that far away.

458
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:50.460
So sort of halfway between the season and that they had these

459
00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:51.720
cinema screenings.

460
00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:54.960
I think there was even a 3D Blu-ray of it available for a little

461
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.440
while.

462
00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:59.940
Do you think this feels more like a 90 minute story rather than 2

463
00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:01.740
separate episodes there?

464
00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:02.519
No.

465
00:23:02.579 --> 00:23:02.819
No?

466
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.359
No, no, no.

467
00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:05.579
I still think it's got the, it's got the division and that's

468
00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:08.220
exacerbated by the fact that unit arrives at the beginning of the

469
00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:08.640
2nd episode.

470
00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:09.240
Right.

471
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:09.480
Yeah.

472
00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:11.759
I mean, obviously that sort of thing happens in plastic.

473
00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:13.440
It's the black orchid problem, isn't it?

474
00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:17.339
Like we don't get the murder until halfway through the actual

475
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:17.940
story.

476
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.660
And so as a whodunit, it's sort of massively unbalanced and

477
00:23:21.660 --> 00:23:24.359
there's a lot of just sort of facting about in episode one, which

478
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:24.839
I love.

479
00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:25.740
Like, I'm not complaining.

480
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.559
Well, I suppose, I suppose what I'm trying to say, actually, what

481
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.559
I'm trying to say is that is that the floor is, they start the 1st

482
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.000
episode as if it's only one episode.

483
00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:36.119
And if you're going to have the 90 minutes, I want it to build

484
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:38.640
because that's the thing, as I've repeated frequently on this

485
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.759
podcast, that I miss about the classic series, is that for all its

486
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.819
other faults, you often, in a four-part story or 6+ story, you get

487
00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:46.859
the sense of it building so that you get the 1st reveal at the end

488
00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:49.740
of part one, and then it sort of goes from there.

489
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.220
Now you still get an expository or, you know, locked up episode 3

490
00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:53.759
sometimes.

491
00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:56.519
But nevertheless, it means more when you get to the climax because

492
00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:57.660
you've had a longer thing.

493
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.200
Whereas for me, in these ones, they're trying to do the climax or

494
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.440
climaxes too quickly so that when you get to the actual climax, I'm

495
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:06.960
kind of going, well, this is actually, now we're somewhere

496
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.279
completely different to where we started.

497
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:09.660
Because it's like a different episode.

498
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.839
Yeah, see, I think the, I think the, it's the opposite problem

499
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:17.579
that we get the episode one reveal halfway through the story and

500
00:24:17.579 --> 00:24:19.559
then we have to do a whole bunch of stuff in the 2nd half.

501
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.759
Like they're stretching episode one.

502
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:21.599
Yeah.

503
00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:23.099
And this is a longer 2nd half.

504
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.480
I guess the advantage here is that we get more time to see Missy

505
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:31.079
and we've been teased with Missy throughout the season and more

506
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:32.460
time with Seb as well.

507
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.880
And I think they're both great.

508
00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:37.079
Oh, absolutely.

509
00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:38.519
I mean, spectacular.

510
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:40.140
I mean, I don't dislike this story.

511
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:41.460
I don't I don't love it.

512
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.400
But it's one of those ones where I wish, I sort of feel like, oh

513
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:46.079
this could be so much better.

514
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.720
Because there's so much great stuff in it, most particularly

515
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.119
obviously, Michelle Gomez is just spectacular and the lines that

516
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:53.880
she's given, but I just want them to take the concept and I want

517
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:56.400
to throw away this draft and I want it to be, I want it to be

518
00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:57.539
redrafted. you know what I mean?

519
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.279
Because I just think there's a better and more interesting way of

520
00:24:59.279 --> 00:24:59.579
doing it.

521
00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:01.140
They might well be.

522
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:05.819
But I'm actually quite satisfied with this because of all of those

523
00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:06.599
performances.

524
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:11.400
Seb is played perfectly by Chris Addison, the right level of

525
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:16.319
humour, especially with the stuff with the burning of the bodies

526
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:18.599
and that sort of thing, to try and take a bit of that away with

527
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:19.319
the cremation.

528
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:21.660
Like, you know, the fact that he is quite a humourous character is

529
00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:24.420
sort of, I like that it's juxtaposed with what is actually going

530
00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:24.720
on.

531
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.200
And all of his sequences with Danny in the nether sphere, the

532
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:30.599
promised land, I just think, are beautiful.

533
00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:33.720
I mean, I can ask just how good Samuel Anderson actually is as

534
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:34.619
Danny Pink.

535
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:38.400
And I think he's really one of the most underrated actors and

536
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.180
characters.

537
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.279
I mean, the entire history of New Herm.

538
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:46.200
He, I think, works really well up against Chris Addison, who is

539
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:51.180
also, from the thick of it, like Capoldi, because there's

540
00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:55.319
something humiliating about how he's being disregarded by

541
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:56.519
Addison.

542
00:25:56.579 --> 00:25:59.400
Like those scenes are still uncomfortable, even though they're

543
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.059
played for comedy because he's put in this sort of weird science

544
00:26:03.059 --> 00:26:07.680
fiction situation and being patronised by this very strange comedy

545
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:08.519
character.

546
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:12.240
There's that hilarious line about, you know, I'm going to get you

547
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.460
to fill in some forms, you might find them relaxing.

548
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.799
No, you won't, but they need to be filthy.

549
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:17.640
Yeah, that's right.

550
00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:19.799
We've got a burner.

551
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:23.819
That's so great, isn't it?

552
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:25.500
I can see my house from here.

553
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:27.240
Sorry Not helping.

554
00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:30.779
I think the thing in like the dialogue and his performance is that

555
00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:33.480
he recognises he's doing a very boring job.

556
00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:36.180
Like I think he thinks the job is very boring and he's trying to

557
00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:36.900
make it more interesting.

558
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.480
Like the character. if you know what I mean?

559
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:40.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

560
00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:41.460
I think he's good.

561
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:42.599
Yeah, I definitely think he's good.

562
00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:45.779
Sometimes I wonder whether he steps over the line, a tag from time

563
00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:46.140
to time.

564
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:49.799
But I mean, it's the way it's written and it certainly it works

565
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:54.480
and it does juxtapose against Danny's situation very, very, very

566
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:54.839
very well.

567
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:57.779
Because, you know, Seb is treating it all as a lark.

568
00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:58.319
Yes.

569
00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:01.680
Chris Addison, of course, is a big Doctor Who fan.

570
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:02.220
Is he?

571
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:06.000
And we'll see if we can find this clip for the show notes, but

572
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.700
there's an episode of Have I got news for you that he does hosted

573
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:09.539
by Tom Baker.

574
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.920
Oh my goodness me.

575
00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:14.339
And at one point, and I want to stress the better, this is from

576
00:27:14.339 --> 00:27:17.279
about 15 years ago, so US politics was very different.

577
00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:21.059
At one point, there's a story about Sarah Palin, and the photo

578
00:27:21.059 --> 00:27:25.140
they use is her of a, in a, in a rather low cut top.

579
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.279
So there is a bit of cleavage happening in the picture.

580
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:32.579
And after the picture appears, you cut back to Tom and goes, oh

581
00:27:32.579 --> 00:27:36.359
and Chris Addison just slams his hand down on the desk.

582
00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:39.660
I wanted to meet you so much when I was a kid, Tom Baker, so

583
00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:39.960
much.

584
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:41.279
Now look at it.

585
00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:46.319
And you cut back to Tom just utterly confused and abused.

586
00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:47.039
Yes, yeah.

587
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:50.759
To have Chris in there.

588
00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:52.380
And it's kind it's kind of funny.

589
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.279
I think, yeah, sometimes the mask slips a little and you get the

590
00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:00.359
impression that, no, he really enjoys screwing around with Danny's

591
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:00.599
head.

592
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:02.880
But I think that actually works.

593
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:09.539
But also having the young boy and the flashbacks to what's gone on

594
00:28:09.539 --> 00:28:12.539
there, extremely well shot by Rachel.

595
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:13.259
Yeah.

596
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:13.859
Yeah, yeah.

597
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:17.700
It really struck me this time because it is, you know, it still

598
00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:20.700
looks like a street, like a suburban street.

599
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:23.339
It's not, you know, like out in the desert or anything. cars and

600
00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:24.359
stuff, but there's houses.

601
00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:25.619
When he's doing the Afghanistan.

602
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.599
Yeah, he's obviously supposed to be Carmel as well, yeah.

603
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:28.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

604
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:29.700
I think that is really great.

605
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:35.400
And apparently the boy, I think his name is Fleming and he's in

606
00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:36.660
episode one.

607
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:40.920
He's the little boy in the maths class who asks Danny if he's ever

608
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:41.700
killed anyone.

609
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.400
He gets a credit in this episode.

610
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:49.319
Yeah, there was meant to be, I think, a remounted flashback to

611
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:51.960
that scene, to shoot it from a slightly different angle to

612
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:54.420
emphasise Danny's risk.

613
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:55.200
Yeah, discomfort.

614
00:28:55.259 --> 00:28:55.799
Yeah.

615
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:59.279
And also originally the boy that Danny kills did have dialogue

616
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:04.559
with Danny in the script, but it comes across a bit Moffatt clever

617
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:05.819
kid dialogue.

618
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:09.240
And, you know, kids are often a lot more clever than we grown-ups

619
00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:13.740
give them credit for, but I think giving that character that kind

620
00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:19.019
of dialogue would have undermined the trauma and drama of the

621
00:29:19.019 --> 00:29:19.380
situation.

622
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.619
Like, originally he wasn't just meant to appear behind Danny.

623
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:25.500
He was actually meant to grab Danny's hand at the conclusion of

624
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:28.200
the episode and say, this time it doesn't have to be that way

625
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:32.700
which is a great line, but also, you know, it's a bit cow in

626
00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:33.839
silence of the library.

627
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:38.339
And I think having him quiet, but implying that he is speaking to

628
00:29:38.339 --> 00:29:42.299
Danny off camera is a lot more powerful than anything that could

629
00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:42.660
be written.

630
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.240
I just assumed he couldn't speak English.

631
00:29:45.299 --> 00:29:46.680
Yeah, I agree.

632
00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:47.579
I thought, yeah.

633
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:49.680
I just assume he was a non-speaking part.

634
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:52.680
Well, you know, I think that's better.

635
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:55.980
I do like the fact that Danny tries to reach out to him because

636
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:58.680
he's a teacher and he cares about children and all of that sort of

637
00:29:58.680 --> 00:29:59.940
thing and right leave.

638
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:01.079
The kid runs on.

639
00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:05.099
I still think that, and I sort of indicated this early in early

640
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:05.640
episodes.

641
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.259
I just think this was a bad place to be coming.

642
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:10.140
Well, see, I...

643
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:18.180
Yeah, I think that we actually come down on a kind of pro soldier

644
00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:18.660
take.

645
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:20.220
I think the soldiers win.

646
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:21.599
And I think that's a problem.

647
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.299
And we'll talk about that, I think, a little bit next week.

648
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.759
No, that's not, okay, that's not what I'm talking about in this

649
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:27.180
instance.

650
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:31.559
I'm more talking about the, when you do a science fiction, science

651
00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:34.980
fiction, you know, you highlight current world problems through

652
00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:37.200
allegory and through parallels and stuff like that.

653
00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:40.920
And I think that it's just, I don't think it's just what Doctor

654
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:41.519
Who should be doing.

655
00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:44.220
You should certainly be dealing with those sorts of issues, but I

656
00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:47.099
don't think you should be doing it using the actual setting and an

657
00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:51.240
actual person from an actual situation that is still very much

658
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:52.200
present day at the time.

659
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:58.680
I think we discovered that during this era there were a lot of, or

660
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.579
there was a program to get soldiers fast tracked through their

661
00:31:02.579 --> 00:31:04.859
teacher education to end up being teachers.

662
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:09.059
And so having a soldier there, like, I kind of think that's okay

663
00:31:09.059 --> 00:31:13.619
that was a thing that we were involved in for a long time.

664
00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:18.599
And, you know, Doctor Who didn't engage with the real world quite

665
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.420
so much in the classic series.

666
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.559
And I always like it a little bit better now that it does do

667
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:25.740
that.

668
00:31:26.220 --> 00:31:30.900
The reason I say that is because it can never deal with it at a

669
00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:34.440
level which something like this needs to be dealt with.

670
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:36.420
You know, it's like fear her.

671
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:41.220
You know, fear her dealing with domestic violence in a way that

672
00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:47.279
appears very real, but it's like, is this something we want Doctor

673
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.119
Who exploring?

674
00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:50.700
Is it capable of exploring it in 45 minutes?

675
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:55.259
Probably not to any sort of level of meaningful commentary.

676
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:58.500
I mean, I think fear her does a reasonable job of making the

677
00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:04.619
father scary in a way that is allegorical or alien or not real, you

678
00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:08.039
know, that actually distances it a little bit.

679
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:09.480
But here.

680
00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:11.940
Look, I think that's probably fair enough.

681
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.599
There are things that Doctor Who isn't capable of dealing with.

682
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:18.539
But I'd sooner tried to push the boundaries a little bit.

683
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:19.859
Oh, look, fine.

684
00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:22.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

685
00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:24.660
I guess part of me, it's too complex.

686
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:29.039
A part of me in this sort of goes, had Jenna gone at the beginning

687
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.259
of the season and said, I'm definitely leaving before the

688
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:32.099
Christmas special.

689
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.019
Would that have then influenced where he took the characters or

690
00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:38.940
what he did with Danny and her, right?

691
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.519
Question we'll never know, right?

692
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:44.400
Because, yeah.

693
00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:46.799
So would that have changed this, right?

694
00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:49.319
Even if she'd come to him halfway through the season?

695
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.380
Like, that's probably too late because he's probably set things in

696
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:52.740
motion.

697
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:57.000
So I think we've got what we were always going to get from Steve

698
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:58.680
and what he wanted to explore.

699
00:32:58.740 --> 00:33:01.859
That's what I'm trying to say, no matter what, you know, whether

700
00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:07.440
we think Doctor can actually have an actual solid handle and

701
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:07.920
something like this.

702
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:13.740
I think I'm sort of in agreement with you, Simon, in terms of can

703
00:33:13.740 --> 00:33:17.640
it do the job that we needed to do, to the level that it needs to

704
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:18.000
be done.

705
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:24.119
And it certainly goes a long way there, but does it actually hit

706
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:24.960
the mark fully?

707
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:30.059
I mean, the whole point is that it has to create a level of guilt

708
00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:30.960
inside him.

709
00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:34.319
Guilt about something, you know, something horrible he feels he's

710
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:35.220
done early in his life.

711
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:38.339
So he's going to hit the delete button or hover over the delete

712
00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:38.819
button.

713
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:43.019
So I get story wise why in this instance it's been put there.

714
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:44.640
And it's different to the earlier soldier thing.

715
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:48.059
But I mean, his decision to try and press the button or he's

716
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:49.019
hovering near the button.

717
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:49.619
That decision.

718
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:54.660
Obviously, the boy is reflected in the iPad screen in a fairly

719
00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:56.819
kind of unsubtle way.

720
00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:01.980
But he has also had that conversation with Clara, where he's had

721
00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:04.740
to pull the plug on it to prevent her from following him.

722
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:09.840
She's made it very clear that she will follow him no matter what

723
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:10.920
that means.

724
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:13.800
And so when he says, I love you, I love you.

725
00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:16.679
He's trying to stop her, obviously, from doing that, which I think

726
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:17.039
is great.

727
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:19.920
In fact, I thought that the reason that he couldn't say anything

728
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.880
personal is that he's only an approximation of Danny in a way

729
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:26.519
because, you know, it's like the mind has been sort of captured by

730
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:28.019
the nether sphere on the point of death.

731
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:31.139
And so it doesn't have that information, but I don't think the

732
00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:31.619
show works.

733
00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:33.239
No, I don't. that's right.

734
00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:34.739
I think it's supposed to be actually him.

735
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:35.280
Yeah, yeah.

736
00:34:35.340 --> 00:34:38.340
See, that's one of the scenes that I have a problem with where he

737
00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:41.460
just keeps going, I love you, I love you, and not getting anywhere

738
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.480
their butting heads together.

739
00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:49.559
It's just showing me how those 2 characters actually have been.

740
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:54.840
But it's him deliberately ignoring her instructions to say

741
00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:56.699
something real.

742
00:34:56.760 --> 00:35:00.960
She says, if you don't give me this information, I am going to

743
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.280
hang up and end this call.

744
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:05.880
And so he just says I love you and she says, you know, no, no

745
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:06.539
don't say that.

746
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.960
And he keeps saying it so that she will hang up and so that she

747
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:11.699
won't keep pursuing him.

748
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.239
I think that's great and it is a very moffity thing to take

749
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:17.460
something that means a definite thing.

750
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:20.159
I love you and turn it into something that means something else

751
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:20.699
entirely.

752
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:24.420
And there's also the fact that at the beginning of the story, Clara

753
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:27.539
has said to Danny, no, no, no, the words by themselves don't mean

754
00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:27.780
anything.

755
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.280
Whereas when he's saying them here, they mean everything.

756
00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:36.000
They mean no, you have to go on living.

757
00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:36.599
Yeah.

758
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:38.940
You know, I'm not that important.

759
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.559
Yeah, it is you have to let me go.

760
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:41.159
Yeah.

761
00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:45.539
And also Moffatt has said in interviews that the deliberate

762
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:50.159
subtext, which Peter Capaldi and Rachel Talais were aware of in

763
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:50.820
the line.

764
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:53.820
Do you think I care so little for you that betraying me would make

765
00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:54.360
a difference.

766
00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:56.940
Is the doctor saying I love you?

767
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:02.760
But not in a romantic way, but this Moffatt said, this is the

768
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.420
moment where he actually is conveying his feelings, but he still

769
00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:08.880
can't quite say those words, but this is his way of saying those

770
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:09.239
words.

771
00:36:11.099 --> 00:36:15.300
It yeah, it just really struck me watching this episode again

772
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:21.360
these 2 episodes, how the themes of love and forgiveness come

773
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:26.579
across in ways that aren't just people saying, I love you when I

774
00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:27.059
forgive you.

775
00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:31.079
People take different actions to show those words.

776
00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:37.739
And I think it's one of Moffatt's most thematically rich stories.

777
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:40.980
And, you know, considering he's done the girl in the fireplace and

778
00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:43.860
the empty child, the doctor dances, which are both about love as

779
00:36:43.860 --> 00:36:44.280
well.

780
00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:48.719
Yeah, I remember liking this at the time, but feeling

781
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:51.300
uncomfortable with some of the darker tones, but watching it

782
00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:51.659
again.

783
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:57.840
I'm just like, this is dark and beautiful and lyrical all at once

784
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.539
and it's a Doctor Who story.

785
00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:05.639
Even the title, Dark Water, which gets shoehorned into the action

786
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:08.880
it's the special x-ray water that means that we can't see the

787
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.380
cycle and exoskeleton.

788
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:11.519
Which is all just for effect.

789
00:37:11.579 --> 00:37:12.119
Yeah.

790
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:13.800
Because, I mean, that's what that's okay.

791
00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:15.179
Yeah, obviously.

792
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:16.440
I mean, people do things for effect.

793
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:18.900
But there were so many interesting things there they could have

794
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:21.360
done more with, but it's just a sort of series of set pieces.

795
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:22.019
Yeah.

796
00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:25.019
Like, that's why I feel it would have been more interesting if the

797
00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:27.239
Darkwater had a played some other role.

798
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:30.420
Like, what is the point of having all these cybermen in these

799
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:34.440
tanks with the water hiding their exoskeletons, because what

800
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:38.280
normal person is going to want to see the decaying corps of their

801
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:38.760
loved one?

802
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:40.320
It just doesn't make any sense.

803
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:43.619
And I know the dark water then kind of is the thing that's

804
00:37:43.619 --> 00:37:46.500
carrying the, I don't know, cybermites, whatever the hell they are

805
00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:50.519
that turns people into cybermen, but it's all a little bit, oh, we

806
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:50.820
could have this.

807
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:51.420
And let's do this.

808
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:52.139
Oh, we should do this.

809
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:53.880
Oh, and we need to have them coming down the steps of St.

810
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:54.239
Paul's.

811
00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:57.780
And, you know, and let's just do it all and not really worry about

812
00:37:57.780 --> 00:38:00.360
how it actually, when you sit down and think about it, You go

813
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:02.579
actually, that's my main problem with it.

814
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.159
See, I think it's just there to be the title.

815
00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:09.300
Like, I think the phrase dark water is so strange and my point.

816
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:10.500
Yeah, it's a beautiful title, yeah.

817
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:11.820
So let's let's do that.

818
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.059
Let's explore that rather than, you know, look, I take your

819
00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:15.239
point.

820
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:19.559
But I do just love the fact that they turn and you as the audience

821
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:22.860
know that there's something up and you're, like, in classic who

822
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:24.960
often wants to step ahead of the doctor working things out.

823
00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:27.239
Although there is one point, you know, when the doors close.

824
00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:28.320
Oh, that's fantastic.

825
00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:30.239
I love that sort of thing.

826
00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:30.960
You don't like that?

827
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:31.980
No, no, no.

828
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:33.059
When the drawers close, that's fine.

829
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:37.139
But then the musical sting that goes, no, no, whatever.

830
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.559
I just kind of thought, just hold back a little bit on that.

831
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:42.119
Turn the volume down.

832
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:43.320
Just a little bit.

833
00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:46.500
But I love all that, the fact that we're getting to know all

834
00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:46.739
this.

835
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.440
And of course, you know, having Dr. Chang there.

836
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:52.320
God, I love the way Missy says, I can't do it.

837
00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:53.519
Dr. Chan.

838
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:59.340
But that reveal, the door's closing with the sidemen eyes, and

839
00:38:59.340 --> 00:39:02.820
that symbol has been the symbol for 3W all the way along.

840
00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:10.920
We do have one fade from Danny, whose eye has a tear in the corner

841
00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:11.460
of it.

842
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:16.920
We fade across to that symbol inside the 3W institute.

843
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.199
And so that's already done.

844
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:24.900
And I think the incredible thing about it is that Russell's

845
00:39:24.900 --> 00:39:28.980
insistence when the cybermen were redesigned, the one thing he

846
00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:32.940
said had to happen was that they had to have that little tear in

847
00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:35.880
the corner of the eye, which is in no way what it was intended to

848
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:36.059
be.

849
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.219
I'm sure it's just there so the actors can see or something.

850
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.139
Like, I'd advise it there in the original...

851
00:39:40.139 --> 00:39:41.880
Also, they could put a drill hole in.

852
00:39:41.940 --> 00:39:48.719
There's no reason for it, but because Russell's cyberman have been

853
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:53.880
turned emotionless and the thing that defeats them in the 2 parter

854
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:58.860
in series 2 is he switches their emotions back on and they, you

855
00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:01.679
know, explode and stuff, look in the mirror and blow up or

856
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:01.920
whatever.

857
00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:03.539
So that's brilliant.

858
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:06.960
I think that that's really great and it is hinted at, you know

859
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:07.320
enough.

860
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:09.780
So that when the things close.

861
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.480
Like, I don't think there's any need to be subtle from then on.

862
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:13.440
We know what they are.

863
00:40:13.500 --> 00:40:16.500
We've even had a reference to them sitting in tubes and we've had

864
00:40:16.500 --> 00:40:17.099
the shots.

865
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:19.739
Like the tomb shots. you know?

866
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:22.860
One of the few things I do like about the 2nd episode, which I

867
00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:25.800
know we're not talking about now, but I won't get a chance to in

868
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:26.099
the moment.

869
00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:30.900
But is where Danny's begging Clara to turn the emotional inhimitor

870
00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:34.440
on because I think that's what actually gets at something which I

871
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:37.019
feel has been missed so much with a cyberman is that their

872
00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:38.460
underlying tragedy.

873
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.159
See, I've always sort of seen it, that they're not emotionless

874
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:44.219
because, you know, some evil person decided to wipe all the

875
00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:45.659
emotions because they'll be more efficient.

876
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:50.039
They turn their emotions off because they can't handle what

877
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:50.519
they've become.

878
00:40:50.579 --> 00:40:53.880
And that's the underlying tragedy which is rarely touched on.

879
00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:56.699
But it is in that Cyberman 2 parter in series too.

880
00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.940
Yes, that's one of the few times, yeah.

881
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.500
And I think at the end of series 10, where we turn the volume down

882
00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:06.840
on the cybermen, so we don't have to hear that.

883
00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:07.679
Yeah, exactly.

884
00:41:07.739 --> 00:41:07.980
Yeah.

885
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:12.300
And, you know, we, um, a while ago talked about the next doctor, of

886
00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:16.860
course, and as silly as parts of that are, parts.

887
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:24.780
But the solution hinges on the fact that the doctor reminds Miss

888
00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:28.679
Hartigan of her lost humanity in the coming, and that is what

889
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:29.940
destroys society men.

890
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.420
Now, even Russell has said he wanted to rework that ending like 2

891
00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:36.780
weeks after they shot it and he realised he, you know, kind of

892
00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:37.260
went too far.

893
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:39.300
But yeah, I agree with you, Simon.

894
00:41:39.300 --> 00:41:42.900
The sidemen are far more effective when we juxtapose what they

895
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:43.739
lose.

896
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:46.920
You know, one of Davison's defining moments is the well-prepared

897
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:47.400
meal.

898
00:41:47.460 --> 00:41:50.159
Flower, smelling a well-prepared flower.

899
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:55.739
But in the next episode, except for Danny, we kind of gloss over

900
00:41:55.739 --> 00:41:58.920
that, which is a shame because I think one of the problems I have

901
00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:01.559
with this at the time because I love Cybermen is that they do take

902
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:03.000
a backseat in the next episode.

903
00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:04.920
But then again...

904
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:07.079
Yeah, they're taking a backseat to Michelle Gomez.

905
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:08.519
Yes, it's hard to complain.

906
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:09.780
Perfectly...

907
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.599
Can I speak in praise of Dr. Chang a bit more?

908
00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:19.019
Yes.

909
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:19.920
Yes.

910
00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:24.000
We've got Andrew Leong and this was really one of his 1st major

911
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:24.539
roles.

912
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:28.199
He did an earlier drama called Lilting, which is only in briefly

913
00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:30.599
but his boyfriend in that is played by Ben Wishaw.

914
00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:33.840
Yeah, that must be where I recognise him from them.

915
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:35.460
He's so pretty, isn't he lovely?

916
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.639
And yeah, he's done a lot of other guest spots and other things.

917
00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:41.820
But something I find so interesting about the character is he

918
00:42:41.820 --> 00:42:46.260
seems to be written as a parody somewhat of the last 2 doctors

919
00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:49.559
before Capaldi because he's got the brainy specs and the tight

920
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:49.980
suit.

921
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:51.900
He sounds like Matt Smith.

922
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.539
And when he's talking about the properties of Dark War, he's

923
00:42:54.539 --> 00:42:57.179
inappropriately sexual, like we should put this in swimming

924
00:42:57.179 --> 00:42:57.599
pools.

925
00:42:57.659 --> 00:43:02.039
And our doctor now who doesn't go in for that sort of thing like

926
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:04.019
the last 2 doctors did is why?

927
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:08.579
And it's, it's, it's kind of that thing now of if someone makes it

928
00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:09.360
an appropriate joke.

929
00:43:09.420 --> 00:43:11.460
The best way to challenge them is go. you explain that?

930
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.719
But the other thing about I love about Dr. Chang, perhaps more so

931
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:18.480
than Seb, although Seb sort of fills the role as well, is that

932
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:19.800
they are the master's companions.

933
00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:23.760
And we don't actually get master's companions that often.

934
00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:26.760
But when we do, they're always fabulous and it works so well with

935
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:30.059
Michelle Gomez because these 2 guys are exactly the kind of

936
00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:34.019
companions that that master would have. terribly gay.

937
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.219
Yes, terrible gay.

938
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:36.179
Quite pretty.

939
00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:38.579
Quite enthusiastic.

940
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:40.980
Yeah, when do we get more Changli?

941
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:43.860
Can we just talk about Michelle?

942
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:46.019
Oh, can we please just talk about Michelle?

943
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:49.800
She is unquestionably the possibly the best master ever.

944
00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:50.699
I think she is.

945
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:54.780
But certainly at least the only one that comes level with

946
00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:55.679
Delgado.

947
00:43:55.739 --> 00:43:59.400
And if I can explain further, apart from the fact that just the

948
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:00.119
performances are great.

949
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:03.300
Because like the Delgado master, when you have the doctor and the

950
00:44:03.300 --> 00:44:05.880
master in the room together with a stranger who isn't sure which

951
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.780
one to trust, it's the master who always has to come across as the

952
00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:12.360
more sophisticated, the more in control, the more elegant.

953
00:44:12.420 --> 00:44:16.079
And the doctor should always come across as slightly shambolic and

954
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:18.300
slightly manic and slightly like he is actually the mad person.

955
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:18.900
Yeah.

956
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:22.260
And that's where I think the John Sims master gets it wrong.

957
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.420
That's where I think the Ainley master also gets it wrong.

958
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.559
The Sasha Duan master is unfortunately poorly written, but I would

959
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:30.780
like to see a better Sasha Duan version.

960
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:34.380
But Michelle gets it right and also she walks the right side of

961
00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:36.719
the camp line as well.

962
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:40.199
It's just got to be on that edge and it has to be over the top

963
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:43.440
without completely cheering the scenery and I think she does it

964
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:44.280
really, really well.

965
00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:47.519
It's actually interesting that when John Sims comes back in world

966
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:48.239
enough and time.

967
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:50.519
It's actually a much better performance because I think it's

968
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:50.760
written.

969
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.219
I think that comes down to the writing and the way it's written.

970
00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:56.460
And of course, the excellent Moffatt dialogue that he gives her.

971
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:57.719
It's just it's just perfect.

972
00:44:57.780 --> 00:44:59.039
I mean, there's line after line.

973
00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:01.380
But the way she says it, the way she delivers them.

974
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:04.500
There's so much going on in the eyes and the eyebrows and the

975
00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:04.860
lips.

976
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.039
I'm not a dalek.

977
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:11.099
Like, it's just little things like that.

978
00:45:11.099 --> 00:45:12.900
Oh, kissing Capaldi.

979
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:13.800
And on nose.

980
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:15.840
Yes. 3 times on the nose.

981
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:20.039
And then lunging for Jenna with her mouth open as well.

982
00:45:21.659 --> 00:45:24.000
There's so much going on in that performance.

983
00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:25.079
It's so good.

984
00:45:25.139 --> 00:45:30.900
She's so fantastically funny and he gives her one solid murder per

985
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:34.440
episode in this story and they're quite upsetting.

986
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:36.840
And, you know, that thing.

987
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:37.800
Don't be so selfish.

988
00:45:37.860 --> 00:45:39.239
I'll miss him too or whatever.

989
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:40.320
Or is that...

990
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:41.219
That's next week.

991
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.360
But she's sort of upset that this has happened as well.

992
00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:51.480
You know, I have to live with this after your death. say something

993
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:51.960
nice.

994
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:53.699
So good.

995
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.139
She's so magnificent.

996
00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:56.579
I also like, I'll give you a countdown.

997
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:59.820
Would that distract you or concentrate?

998
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:06.000
So she's really, really terrifically, properly funny, and she puts

999
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:09.840
Capoli on the back foot, and it is the thing where she has to be

1000
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:13.320
more fun than the doctor, and that's what the master should always

1001
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:13.739
be.

1002
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.500
The master should be more fun than the doctor.

1003
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:18.119
Normal fun, better.

1004
00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:18.900
Like more...

1005
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:19.679
Yeah, yeah.

1006
00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:22.679
It's always for me sophistication and elegance, which is what

1007
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:23.880
makes the best master moments.

1008
00:46:23.940 --> 00:46:27.000
You know, it's when Delgado's swanning around in a suit and with a

1009
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:28.320
cigar. love those moments.

1010
00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:32.820
I think that the big Delgado moment for me is Claus of Axos, where

1011
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:36.000
the doctor's off, being annoying and unpleasant and difficult.

1012
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:40.139
And the master's being sort of super charming and...

1013
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:40.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1014
00:46:40.980 --> 00:46:45.119
It's funny what you say with Ainley, because arguably Ainley's 2

1015
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:48.360
best performances in the role are in Planet of Fire and survival

1016
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:50.940
where they give him some really nice suits.

1017
00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:54.000
Yeah, but I was going to say, and in both cases, the performance

1018
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:55.199
is more underplayed.

1019
00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:55.679
Yes.

1020
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:55.980
Yeah.

1021
00:46:55.980 --> 00:46:59.400
And, you know, he's playing chameleon, which gives him another

1022
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:00.480
scope.

1023
00:47:00.539 --> 00:47:04.079
And again, he gets a rapport with Perry in that story.

1024
00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:07.860
You give the master a rapport with a companion and it improves

1025
00:47:07.860 --> 00:47:08.760
them immeasurably.

1026
00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:12.179
And even with Dwan, as you were saying, stick with me, Yaz.

1027
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:12.960
Yeah.

1028
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.780
And then in power of the doctor, again, when he's bored with

1029
00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:17.519
talking to the doctor, he talks to Yaz.

1030
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:18.300
Yeah.

1031
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:20.760
Your dad was rubbish.

1032
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:24.840
But Michelle is just magnetic.

1033
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:28.980
That kissing scene, there's a take where she's holding Clara's

1034
00:47:28.980 --> 00:47:30.900
hand while she's kissing the top.

1035
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:31.500
Really?

1036
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:33.960
It's one of the, she's one of those actresses where it's different

1037
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:34.320
each time.

1038
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:35.099
Yeah, yeah.

1039
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:39.119
But I think also it was meant to foreshadow her explaining her

1040
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:41.039
link to Clara in the next episode.

1041
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:45.119
Moffatt had 2 or 3 ideas as to who the woman in the shop was.

1042
00:47:45.179 --> 00:47:49.619
One of them was the master, but another idea he had was, it's a

1043
00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:53.340
Clara Splinter who was born in 1920 who made our...

1044
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:54.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1045
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:56.579
And I think he sort of came to the conclusion.

1046
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:59.760
No, it's much more fun if it's if it's the master putting the

1047
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.639
doctor and Clara together and putting the ad in the paper in deep

1048
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:03.119
breath.

1049
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:04.320
Yeah.

1050
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:08.340
I just love all the dialogue and the whole reveal, like when

1051
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:10.739
they're out on the street and she's talking about a ranting

1052
00:48:10.739 --> 00:48:13.860
Scotsman, and then that close, when they're close together, and

1053
00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:17.340
you think that she's going to deliver the dialogue of who she is

1054
00:48:17.340 --> 00:48:20.639
but then the doctor has to give that extra, that, like, who's

1055
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:21.059
missy?

1056
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:22.619
that extra bit that it has to go.

1057
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.440
I couldn't keep calling myself master.

1058
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:28.019
Like, it's just, oh, it's just delicious.

1059
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:31.559
Like all of that performance intercut. with what's going on with

1060
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:34.739
Danny and the whole direction.

1061
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:40.559
Like, I just, this is not my favourite episode 11 or, but it's

1062
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:43.980
it's, I just think, despite what we've said earlier about

1063
00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:46.320
advancing the plot and that sort of thing.

1064
00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:51.900
It is so rich in what it delivers, that I really, really enjoyed

1065
00:48:51.900 --> 00:48:53.039
this so much.

1066
00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:55.440
Like, this is a 9 out of 10, 9 out of 10 for me.

1067
00:48:55.500 --> 00:48:59.880
Like it's not never going to be my favourite, but I just really

1068
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:01.619
buy into the whole thing.

1069
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:05.219
I mean, 9 is far too excessive for me, but that's why I'm sort of

1070
00:49:05.219 --> 00:49:07.380
saying that I don't love it, but I don't hate it.

1071
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.900
I'm certainly enjoying it, but I just think, oh, I wish I wish you

1072
00:49:09.900 --> 00:49:10.500
could have done it better.

1073
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:12.719
But also I love with Michelle Gomez, there are so many of those

1074
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:13.980
lines that are just thrown away.

1075
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:15.000
Like, oh, time lady.

1076
00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:15.960
I'm old-fashioned.

1077
00:49:16.019 --> 00:49:18.599
You know, it's it's that and I think that's what makes a great

1078
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:19.320
performance as well.

1079
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:21.360
It's not every, every line is not important.

1080
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.539
No She can read it and be directed.

1081
00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:27.599
Well, I think it's more her, probably. that she can throw away

1082
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:28.619
those lines.

1083
00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:30.300
Well, she knows how to deliver those sorts of lines.

1084
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.340
I think is as much of what it is.

1085
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:33.960
No, no, just, just, just sublime.

1086
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:35.340
It's so good, isn't it?

1087
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:38.820
I just think she is the character working properly.

1088
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.679
Perhaps fully for the 1st time.

1089
00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:43.920
Yeah, and what I was going to say a moment ago is that that sense

1090
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:47.579
that we get from her master is how close the doctor and she were

1091
00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:48.119
as children.

1092
00:49:48.179 --> 00:49:51.179
Which is kind of always suggested that, oh, yes, they were friends

1093
00:49:51.179 --> 00:49:52.980
in school or college or whatever the hell it was.

1094
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:57.840
Whereas I actually get a real sense that she really likes him, that

1095
00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:59.099
they're actually very close.

1096
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:00.900
It's like that line in the next season.

1097
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:02.519
You know, I see that couple over there.

1098
00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:03.239
You're the dog.

1099
00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:13.559
That whole reveal, like I actually went onto YouTube and I watched

1100
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:17.280
people react all the reactions to it, and there was this one poor

1101
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:21.480
unfortunate boy who would have been a teenager, and he was saying

1102
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:25.980
it at the same time, and instead of saying the master, It was the

1103
00:50:25.980 --> 00:50:27.059
Mistress Romana.

1104
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:30.840
That's what he wanted it to be, like it actually says like the

1105
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:31.920
Mistress Romana.

1106
00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:35.699
And then you see the look on his face when it's like missy and how

1107
00:50:35.699 --> 00:50:39.719
devastated he is that it's actually not because he never thought

1108
00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:41.880
that the master would be a woman.

1109
00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:42.360
A woman.

1110
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:45.840
So props to Moffatt for making the master a woman.

1111
00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:46.619
We kind of forget.

1112
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:49.559
Like he, he, he paves the way.

1113
00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:50.400
He paves the way.

1114
00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:53.099
And he does that with diversity a bit like with Rachel

1115
00:50:53.099 --> 00:50:57.719
Tallalalay's, you know, she's the 1st woman to direct an episode

1116
00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.719
since like series 2 or something or three.

1117
00:51:00.780 --> 00:51:01.800
Really?

1118
00:51:01.860 --> 00:51:03.119
Is it Catherine Tregana?

1119
00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:05.639
Yeah, I think there was Alice Troughton in series 3 and then we

1120
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:07.199
haven't had...

1121
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:10.380
Yes, that's right We haven't, like, that's a thing that he's done

1122
00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:13.980
and then, obviously, Chris Chibnall took it further.

1123
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.139
He'd never managed to get it quite far enough.

1124
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:19.139
And I'm kind of a little bit happy that we didn't get a female

1125
00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:22.440
doctor from Stephen Moffat, to be honest.

1126
00:51:22.500 --> 00:51:28.800
But, like, the character works as a woman and that reveal could

1127
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:31.440
not have worked if it had been anything else other than the

1128
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:31.679
master.

1129
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:33.179
The Rani.

1130
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:34.739
Yeah, so no, of course not.

1131
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:35.460
Of course not.

1132
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:36.360
That's the reason.

1133
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:37.139
Who cares?

1134
00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:40.019
You know, the Rani was in 2 episodes before most of the audience

1135
00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:40.500
were born.

1136
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:42.539
Yes, we call them stories, but...

1137
00:51:42.539 --> 00:51:43.980
Vivian Faye.

1138
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:44.639
Yep, yeah.

1139
00:51:44.699 --> 00:51:45.420
Well, yes.

1140
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:47.579
It's a Sarah Diplos.

1141
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:51.239
I don't think it's a surprise to anyone in the room or anyone

1142
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:54.179
listening at home that I freaking love the Rani.

1143
00:51:54.300 --> 00:51:58.260
But even I have kind of thought there's no reason to bring the

1144
00:51:58.260 --> 00:51:58.800
Rani back.

1145
00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:03.719
You know, the Rani is a very 80s villain with the dynasty era.

1146
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:08.340
Well, dynasty era with the portrayal, but also a sort of DNA mad

1147
00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:12.000
scientist is a very 1980s horror movie idea.

1148
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:16.679
But I have to say, in common with that young man's disappointment

1149
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:21.539
when she said the Time Lord, you abandoned and then Mistress.

1150
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.360
I thought it was Roman. by Susan.

1151
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:25.800
Romana.

1152
00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:29.699
I thought it was evil Romana, because the BBC books, the 8th

1153
00:52:29.699 --> 00:52:35.940
doctor novels, had done an amoral 30 incarnation of Romana, at

1154
00:52:35.940 --> 00:52:38.639
sort of at the dawn of the time war before it was called.

1155
00:52:38.699 --> 00:52:41.099
Well, what would have been the worst outcome was had it been Evil

1156
00:52:41.099 --> 00:52:44.039
Romana, who actually then is subsequently the Rani, which is how

1157
00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:45.960
the, like, it's like the Rani's origin story.

1158
00:52:46.019 --> 00:52:48.239
I really would have punched the screen.

1159
00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:51.360
But if I can say it's not...

1160
00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:55.199
It's not it's not so much the fact that who cares if it was the

1161
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:55.619
Rani?

1162
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.019
Because I think there's no reason if you wanted to have the Rani

1163
00:52:58.019 --> 00:52:58.559
come back.

1164
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:02.940
But you cannot have a season-long build up and then it'd be there

1165
00:53:02.940 --> 00:53:03.840
aren't. you know what I mean?

1166
00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:06.000
If you're going to have the Rani back, you just have her in an

1167
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:06.239
episode.

1168
00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:08.699
Yeah, like the macro, like the, for example.

1169
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:13.440
The macro coming back is great because it happens without fanfare

1170
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:14.699
without buildup, they're just there.

1171
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:17.340
Yeah, if I can imagine a season-long reveal where it's the fish

1172
00:53:17.340 --> 00:53:18.420
people from there.

1173
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.079
Oh, going to be wonderful.

1174
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:50.099
Well, it looks like there's a lot of cybermen about, so we're

1175
00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:50.400
off.

1176
00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:53.639
We'll catch you next week, along with everyone who has ever died

1177
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:55.679
ever, in death in heaven.

1178
00:53:56.099 --> 00:54:00.179
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1179
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:03.659
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1180
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:06.300
com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter

1181
00:54:06.300 --> 00:54:10.320
and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger

1182
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.460
Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek Project.

1183
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.199
Until next time, rest in peace, we promise.

1184
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:21.780
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1185
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:22.559
Good night.

1186
00:54:22.619 --> 00:54:24.059
See you soon.

1187
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:24.900
Bye for now.

1188
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:27.960
I'm going to go punch Cyber Savile in the face.

1189
00:54:34.980 --> 00:54:39.000
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Beelby, Nathan

1190
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:41.039
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Simon Moore.

1191
00:54:41.099 --> 00:54:43.320
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1192
00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:47.219
This episode, terribly gay, was recorded on the 4th of June 2023

1193
00:54:47.219 --> 00:54:49.079
and released on the 25th of June.

1194
00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:57.239
Darkwater screened when I was 45 years old, but had it aired when

1195
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:00.360
I was 10, and I found out then that I could come back from the

1196
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:03.780
dead as a 2nd rate Doctor Who Monster, from then on, I think, I

1197
00:55:03.780 --> 00:55:06.360
would have been much, much less careful crossing the road.

1198
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:16.079
Oh, God, Murray Gold does the chromophone band for 5 minutes.

1199
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:17.280
And that's it.

1200
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:19.199
How do people feel?

1201
00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:22.920
I actually really like the, the idea of ending with the season

1202
00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:26.099
longer of the, season long arc leading to the reveal of the fish

1203
00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:26.519
people.

1204
00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:28.320
Yeah, that was good.

1205
00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:31.260
I think we've said everything, everything else I have to say is

1206
00:55:31.260 --> 00:55:32.940
actually more applicable to the next episode.

1207
00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:35.820
Yeah, I mean, which is appalling.

1208
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:38.820
I don't think it's appalling but I do think it's bad in all sorts

1209
00:55:38.820 --> 00:55:39.239
of ways.

1210
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:42.960
It's unfortunate, but I still enjoy myself because it's got lots

1211
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:46.619
of fabulous, like killing Osgood is just so great.

1212
00:55:46.739 --> 00:55:48.539
She comes she does come back.

1213
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:50.880
Well, because she was already to Osgood's in Day of the Doctor.

1214
00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:51.420
Yeah.

1215
00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:54.599
Oh, of course, of course, of course.

1216
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:57.539
And so when they bring her back, it's in a Zigon story.

1217
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:00.000
Yes, yes, we get to have a...

1218
00:56:00.059 --> 00:56:02.159
Yeah, I mean, to me, it's that thing.

1219
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:06.059
It starts, what it does is it turns into the RTD style finale

1220
00:56:06.059 --> 00:56:07.139
which is...

1221
00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:08.400
Well, I don't think it's enough like that.

1222
00:56:08.460 --> 00:56:10.980
Well, no, because it's all just, it's all just a whole lot of

1223
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:14.219
extraordinary stuff happening, but I'm just going through going, I

1224
00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:14.760
just don't care.

1225
00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:15.420
I don't care.

1226
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:20.639
Like, it's all big playing things and... love all of that.

1227
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:23.280
But no, but all the part I love is everything apart from that.

1228
00:56:23.340 --> 00:56:26.219
Like it's all of the sequences with Missy and Osgood.

1229
00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.440
It's all the doctor talking.

1230
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:29.940
That thing, the countdown.

1231
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.860
That's where they came down to cemetery.

1232
00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:33.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. where I'll give you a countdown.

1233
00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:34.380
Yeah, yeah.

1234
00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:36.360
And where she says, I'm not important or something.

1235
00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:38.760
It's like, you should have some more confidence in yourself.

1236
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:40.980
Like it's so great.

1237
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:43.139
When did she say, when did she say I like the accent?

1238
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:43.739
I'll keep it.

1239
00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:44.880
Oh, that's in it.

1240
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:45.840
That's in deep breath.

1241
00:56:45.900 --> 00:56:46.920
Oh, that's a deep breath.

1242
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.480
Spoiler alert, Simon.

1243
00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:54.480
I'm going to have a todd experience. next episode.

1244
00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:56.340
You're gonna love it.

1245
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.320
Did you hate it the 1st time I rated you?

1246
00:56:58.380 --> 00:57:00.599
I did not particularly like a lot of aspects.

1247
00:57:00.659 --> 00:57:03.420
But I mean, also... very middling, but it's gone up substantially

1248
00:57:03.420 --> 00:57:03.960
enough.

1249
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:06.000
It's just...

1250
00:57:06.059 --> 00:57:08.159
Well, I just think I think everyone being dead.

1251
00:57:08.219 --> 00:57:11.699
Like, I think literally everyone who's ever died comes back as a

1252
00:57:11.699 --> 00:57:12.360
cyberman.

1253
00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:14.039
Like, I think maybe that's too much.

1254
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:19.019
But then I hate people who say that Dodo is out there, yes.

1255
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:25.920
When I 1st watched it, I was furious about the cyber dad.

1256
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:27.599
Yes. cyber break.

1257
00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:28.019
Yeah.

1258
00:57:28.019 --> 00:57:31.679
No, I'm still furious about it.

1259
00:57:31.739 --> 00:57:33.840
I cried this time.

1260
00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:34.500
No.

1261
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:35.280
No.

1262
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:37.739
I'm sorry, I had a complete...

1263
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:41.159
I had an extreme trot experience and I look on it very differently

1264
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:41.400
now.

1265
00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:45.179
I like I like to think like a visual metaphor of the extreme Todd

1266
00:57:45.179 --> 00:57:48.599
experience for the blister at home is Todd going skydiving and

1267
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:51.719
then as he lands going, Delta and the Batterman's fine.

1268
00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:59.699
Brendan, on 2 counts, that will never...

1269
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:03.719
No, it's just, it's just, it just could have been so much more

1270
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:06.599
interesting and much more dramatic and have an actual build.

1271
00:58:06.659 --> 00:58:08.760
It's just the whole the whole thing just...

1272
00:58:08.820 --> 00:58:09.719
I think it's a bit of a mess.

1273
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:11.940
But I do think that it's an entertaining mess.

1274
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.920
Of course, they're always entertaining.

1275
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:15.300
But that's all right.

1276
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:17.280
There are worse ambitions to have.

1277
00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:19.199
I want more.

1278
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:21.059
Yeah.

1279
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:25.679
Yeah, you get more next year, I guess, is, you know, having set in

1280
00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:26.219
hell band.

1281
00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:27.360
Oh, they're much better.

1282
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:28.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1283
00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:29.820
No, this was a retro.

1284
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:33.360
For me, this is a retrograde step in the finale.

1285
00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:36.840
Yeah, but I mean, it is also like the, the, St.

1286
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:38.519
Paul's dome opens and...

1287
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:40.800
Oh, that's supposed to be.

1288
00:58:40.860 --> 00:58:41.940
I think this is the face of it.

1289
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:45.059
I think there's a lot to really love in the finale.

1290
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:46.500
There is a lot to love in the finale.

1291
00:58:46.619 --> 00:58:47.820
But there are some things.

1292
00:58:47.940 --> 00:58:49.199
But there are some substantial things.

1293
00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:50.760
No, just some.

1294
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:54.480
I love the, there's the, the Sylvia Anderson line.

1295
00:58:54.539 --> 00:58:55.679
Do you remember that?

1296
00:58:55.739 --> 00:58:58.380
Like, he says, can we go to cloud base?

1297
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.900
The doctor says, can we go to climb?

1298
00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:01.619
Yes, yes.

1299
00:59:01.739 --> 00:59:02.940
And oh, as good, correct.

1300
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:04.920
Simmons says, no, that's the Thunderbirds.

1301
00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:07.679
It was the valley, that Kyle Bayes is the Thunderbirds.

1302
00:59:07.739 --> 00:59:10.920
And then general...

1303
00:59:10.980 --> 00:59:13.019
Yeah, general thing.

1304
00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:13.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1305
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:18.179
I know, for God's sake, says, no, that was Captain Scarlett.

1306
00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:22.739
And the doctor goes, you can, like, I'm so, I'm really excited to

1307
00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:24.059
be in your care.

1308
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:27.719
But me and Sylvia Anderson.

1309
00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:29.460
You never saw a fox trot like it.

1310
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:31.320
Like, that is great.

1311
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:34.079
I also didn't like the whole president of earth thing.

1312
00:59:34.139 --> 00:59:36.420
It's like, no, no, no, doctor's supposed to be. all that kind of

1313
00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:36.599
stuff.

1314
00:59:37.019 --> 00:59:41.099
And I don't like destroying planes because I have a phobia.

1315
00:59:42.119 --> 00:59:43.440
Well, we never actually see the plane destroyed.

1316
00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:44.699
No, but they all get out of it alone.

1317
00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:48.840
I'm sorry, everybody gets sucked out. you know, but it just it

1318
00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:49.800
just triggers me.

1319
00:59:49.860 --> 00:59:51.360
Oh, it does explode.

1320
00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:52.440
I do mean...

1321
00:59:52.500 --> 00:59:55.320
And then he explodes bell, then the master has them explode

1322
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:56.039
Belgium as well.

1323
00:59:56.099 --> 00:59:57.960
Because they're not even French.

1324
00:59:58.019 --> 00:59:59.880
Did you see that thing?

1325
00:59:59.940 --> 01:00:01.380
Did you see that thing?

1326
01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:04.920
In Korea, Korean Airlines, someone passenger as it was coming into

1327
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:05.940
land, open the door.

1328
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:06.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1329
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:07.260
What happened?

1330
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:09.119
Everyone survived because it was close because they were

1331
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:09.960
relatively close to the ground.

1332
01:00:10.019 --> 01:00:10.800
It was just a bit brief.

1333
01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:11.400
Did he survive?

1334
01:00:11.460 --> 01:00:13.619
I think so. yes Yeah, he was restrained.

1335
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:13.980
Yeah, yeah.

1336
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:15.960
So he must have opened the door, but then stood back.

1337
01:00:16.019 --> 01:00:18.420
Because there was no, because usually it's not that because when

1338
01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:19.800
it happens at altitude, of course, has the air pressure

1339
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:21.900
differential. that's when you do get sucked out.

1340
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:25.559
But wouldn't you if you were moving really fast within the air

1341
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:26.519
pressure outside below?

1342
01:00:26.579 --> 01:00:28.199
I don't know anything about physics.

1343
01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:31.260
No, no, no, but if you're moving, like, like, if you're moving, if

1344
01:00:31.260 --> 01:00:35.219
you're low enough, it's the, you get sucked out.

1345
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:36.119
If you're low enough.

1346
01:00:36.179 --> 01:00:36.659
It doesn't matter.

1347
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:38.639
That's why like when people are doing skydiving, they open the

1348
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:39.000
plane.

1349
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:39.599
Oh yes, of course.

1350
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:40.980
They're not all...

1351
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:41.760
They don't just get sucked.

1352
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:43.260
They have to make them. choice.

1353
01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:43.920
Yes, exactly.

1354
01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:47.699
But I do feel sorry for Osgood because, like, she's killed off in

1355
01:00:47.699 --> 01:00:52.619
a plane in this episode and then in the Zigon 2 part, she and

1356
01:00:52.619 --> 01:00:55.619
Capaldi have to parachute out of a plane that's blown up.

1357
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:57.659
But that's a different Osgood.

1358
01:00:57.719 --> 01:00:58.739
So she didn't experience that.

1359
01:00:58.800 --> 01:00:59.340
All right.

1360
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.460
Just before you do, I've got one more thing to say.

1361
01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:05.460
I was in the cockpit when the captain got sucked out.

1362
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:07.619
Oh my god.

1363
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:08.940
Fast forward.

1364
01:01:09.900 --> 01:01:11.820
The Air Stewarts.