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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:40:12

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast speaking to you from inside your phone.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm Simon.

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Well, philosophers and theologians have for centuries trying to answer the question, what happens to you when you die, but it turns out that the only person who got the answer completely right was Kit Pedler.

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It's time to stow our grief and bring out our scepticism.

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It's dark water.

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I vividly remember watching this the first time, and I think it's the first time in ages that I had experienced a real sense of dread while watching the show.

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Am I crazy?

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No, no, I remember, um, it's kind of funny.

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Something I've long criticised Stephen Moffat 4 is, oh, they're dead.

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Okay, so they'll be back next week, yeah?

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And right from the very beginning of this one, I'm like, no, no.

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This, I think, I think it's Jenna Coleman's performance in the pre-titles makes me go, oh, no, no, everything's going wrong.

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In a good way.

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Not, not, not that Jenna's bad.

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I take issue with the 1st time.

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The 1st time in a while, I think there's a, there's something sort of different here.

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Doctor Who always does deaf, and in the Moffat era, then undoes it.

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But here is a real proper attempt to make death scary.

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I know that sounds ridiculous. but we've had decades of people sort of clutching their stomach and then falling over.

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But I think the difference is here is that it's a totally unexpected death and a death that has nothing to do with saving the earth or saving somebody else by leaping in front of them or something.

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Yeah.

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In fact, you kind of imagine...

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Yes, I think that that's it.

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I think it's really, really properly like a real normal deaf.

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And you sort of imagine if Danny's going to die at this point in the series.

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It's going to be Clara's fault in some way because that seems to be where things are heading, but they don't do that.

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And I think that's pretty interesting.

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I was really confused because in listen, there was this timeline where it was obvious that they had gotten together.

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So I was there going, oh, this is where we're going with this and oh, there'll be some clever out, I'm sure.

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And then, as you said, that feeling of Jada's episode goes on.

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Perhaps there isn't going to be that out.

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So I was, yeah, I had a confusion in my mind.

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Yeah, I think it's the most upsetting death in Doctor Who, like, seriously, just because, like, because of the tricky way that Moffatt does it, like Moffatt does a phone thing all the time.

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And of course, he's going to do the death that way because we're not going to get to see it.

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Well, normally, at the risk of going into this too much.

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Normally, a death would happen of such a significant character would happen at the very, very end of a story.

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And so, you know, there might be a day in more and then there's the end credits and then it's over, whereas because it's the beginning of the story of the episode, you are then spending time dealing with that.

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The other difference.

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So here, though, which I think which counts as that is because then he suddenly is appearing in the nether sphere, the character may be dead in a practical sense, but in a real sense, he's still alive because we're still seeing him interact with other people.

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Do you know what I mean?

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So that kind of does dull it.

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Yeah.

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It makes it more science fiction-y than real.

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Yeah, and I think that eventually there is a little bit too much science fiction in the death and we'll talk about that next week, I think.

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Did you notice as he walks across the park, there's a big thing, like with columns and stuff, which looks a little bit like the thing that we see missy against in the 1st episode?

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Like it's a series of columns with kind of railing around the top of it.

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And it has a weeping angel there.

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There's actually like an angel on top of that, like a sculpture.

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And so he's kind of hinting at the death.

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And then there's a look on Danny's face as he crosses the road as well, which is striking and noticeable.

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Yeah.

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I remember at the time, I did feel like the way it's shot, it is all shot as if he's about to be run over.

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It's got those cues, definitely.

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And like, we don't get to see the immediate reaction because of course he pulls that thing where Clara arrives as, you know, the, we don't even properly see it, do we?

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But presumably the paramedics are pulling the sheet across or whatever.

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And then we fade and it's 3 weeks later or something.

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I think that's a great transition. really good.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Beautifully shop by Rachel Talloway.

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This is her 1st time, isn't it?

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Directing and she's going to be back a lot more. she's great.

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So she did all 3 Capaldi two-part finales.

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She did twice upon a time and she shot David Tennant reappearing as the 14th doctor as well.

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Yeah, and his upcoming 1st schedule.

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She's about to write.

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And she's directing for series 14 as well.

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She's still, like she, she's actually had COVID recently and has been directing via iPad because I follow her on Instagram.

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Dear goodness me.

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It really is brilliantly shot, Todd, as you say, and it is sensitively shot in that we don't see a body, which I think, you know, because the story deals with death, it has to be very careful, and I think that's the right choice.

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Both for that reason of sensitivity, but also because Clara's not there when it happens.

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So the last time we as the viewer with Clara as our surrogate see Danny is the last moment he's alive and then we don't see him again until his virtual self, his soul.

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And I think it's also carried by Jenna's just stillness in that performance, where she has been a character who's always in motion and always moving.

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And, you know, how is your face doing that sort of thing?

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And she's just stocked ill.

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But her absolute pain and grief. that Jenna conveys in that pre-credits, especially when she's talking to Gran, and then the doctor like, I'm heard better, and then when the doctor says, what can I do for you, Clara, you know, we all know where that's heading, and I think her performance is just tremendous.

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But whether you like Clara or not, in the next little sequence straight after the credits, that's something that, you know, we need to discuss because, you know, is she being totally unreasonable with the 7 keys to doomsday, as I thought, as it's called?

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And, you know, that whole sequence.

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I mean, I think Steven's riffing a bit here.

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Like he's doing one of his tricks taking us down a certain path for it not to be, you know, all of a dream state.

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And I don't know.

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I mean, I like, I think it's beautiful. wonderfully performed, but is it a good thing?

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Yeah, so I'm not sure myself.

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I'm a bit uneasy about how far it goes.

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Do you know what I mean?

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with their relationship.

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Yep, I think that's deliberate.

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So we actually opened there with her on the volcano.

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Like we go straight from the opening credits to her at the volcano before we see how we get there, yeah.

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And that volcano is a hellscape, isn't it?

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Like a literal hellscape where there's fire and lava and sulphur and all of that sort of stuff.

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And so that's where we're going to go, but she's kind of there already.

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And so that environment is chosen.

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Not because it melts tartest keys, but because it shows kind of where we are in like how she's feeling.

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And there is the thing where the doctor says the reason you're threatening me is that you know that I will say no.

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Like, that's the only reason that she goes to these lengths is because she knows the doctor will say no.

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And she says, you know, change it, fix it.

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I don't care what the rules are.

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You break rules, you rewrite time all the time.

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And all of that stuff's true, but she knows that he won't go back in time and make Danny better and so she has to resort to this.

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I think also, it makes the 2 of them kind of conspirators in doing something really dangerous and quite wrong, I think.

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And that's their decision to try and go to the afterlife in the Tartars.

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Yeah.

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Something I find very interesting is, like I've said before, that Clara, as a character, is someone I like less and less as we go along.

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But here, I totally get where she's coming from and I think, here is a character who has been pushed to her limit, not only because of what's happened with Danny, but also what has happened with the doctor and she has stood by him while he's been really quite unpleasant at points in this season and say with Kill the Moon and Mummy on the Orient Express, agrees to go on that last adventure and gets a better understanding of him in order to start rebuilding their relationship.

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And there's that moment where the doctor says sometimes you only have bad choices, but you still have to choose.

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And that's what she's doing here.

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Like her, her choices are except that Danny is dead and live without him and never say I love you to anyone else ever again or betray her friend.

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And she's like, well, doing nothing is a terrible choice.

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How much worse can doing something be?

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And yeah, it's pretty bad, but I totally get where she's coming from.

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I think it's very dark and it's and it's skating a very thin line.

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And I think that as a viewer or as a fan, you fall on one side or the other.

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So if you really, really like it, right, you're going to love this, if you're uneasy with it, then I can see the end of the season is not going to necessarily be to your liking.

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As I said, like it seems to be all building to the go to hell line, that play on words, which doesn't really quite work.

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No.

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So I'm, I think it's stunningly active.

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And what you were saying about the character of Clara.

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I think that Jenna Coleman is absolutely phenomenal in this 2 parter, and it's not necessarily in all of this wrought stuff.

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It's also when she doesn't say anything and is in the background, right?

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I think Capaldi is amazing, but they're not necessarily very likeable.

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And if I'm just comparing to Amy for a moment, I think that Amy, for me, becomes much more likeable as she comes along except for that Dalek episode at the beginning of season seven.

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And I think that Karen grows as an actress. because I don't think she's that great at the beginning, whereas I think Jenna is just I just think she's amazing.

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And we had a conversation a long time ago about the Claras that I liked and didn't like.

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Well, I've had a Todd experience.

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Oh, not an extreme Todd experience because I was listening to Colin in the Kilda Moon episode.

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That would have to be an extreme type of experience in that episode.

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We won't go back there.

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I may have extreme trot experience next episode, but anyway, I actually think that this version of Clara this season, I think I previously said that I liked each version of Clara less, but I actually think this version, including the anniversary special, is actually better than series 7B, The Impossible Girl.

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So I've had I've had a bit of my own experience, listeners, with this.

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But I digress.

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This whole key business and and how distraught she is and the lengths that she'll go to doesn't necessarily, like I think it's brilliant.

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I think it's, as I said, really well acted, but I'm uneasy with it.

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I neither like it nor hate it.

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I can see why they're doing it and it's all fine.

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And, you know, obviously she's fantastic.

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And, you know, she is one of the few companions that goes on and has a quite an acting career.

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Others have less of an acting career after they leave the show.

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She's great.

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Look, the sequence is great.

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It just all for me reeks too much of being set peace and all being done for effect.

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And when I see those sorts of things happening.

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You know, we want it to say that we can put it in the trailer.

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We want it so that we can start the episode in this really dramatic way.

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Because then afterwards, I know you say it sort of gives them excuse to go off to the underworld and, you know, go off and try and go to the afterlife.

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But does it?

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And then when they get there, it's just forgotten it may as well have never have happened.

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So it's just a series of events that happen so that it's exciting rather than to actually properly advance the plot.

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I want to suggest an alternative way of doing this. which occurred to me yesterday after watching the 2nd episode, actually.

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How effective it would have been to have at the end of that appalling episode that we had last week.

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A sequence where Danny is hit by...

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So you have that sequence at the end of the episode.

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And it ends ghost black, basically it cuts as he's sort of stepping across or something like that and then it cuts to black and then we're wondering what's happened. is dead.

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And then we start the next, and we strongly suspect he's dead, and then we start the next episode with 3 weeks later and so on, and then we suddenly realise, oh my god, it actually did happen, because that gives the audience time to kind of absorb what's happened.

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And then we kind of are more likely to sort of understand what Clara's up to.

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But yeah, going back to sort of the original thing about the character, Clara.

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I don't just, I don't quite buy it.

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You know, I mean, I know we've got a time machine.

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You can go back and you can change history. you know, time can be rewritten, et cetera, et cetera.

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But at the same time, I just don't buy that she would ask this.

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And certainly I don't buy that she would ask it in this way.

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I just want them to get to that decision to go and find Danny to go and try and go to the afterlife.

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I want that to happen in a different way than it does.

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I think what I like about it is that we've been worried about the doctor is the doctor a good man or not.

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And I think this is where Clara meets him at his level and there's a line of dialogue where she says, I don't deserve you, doctor, and he replies, I'm sorry, Clara, but I'm exactly what you deserve.

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And so both of them are doing something really transgressive when they make the decision to go to the afterlife.

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So much so that even though we've been prepared for the weirdness of that by the rest of this season, where lots of weird things have happened.

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It reminds me of the chase, you know, where the doctor thinks he's landed in the human subconscious and all go, you can't do that and the doctor thinks, well, maybe I can.

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I don't know.

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So maybe I can go to the afterlife. turns out it's just Ghana.

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That's right.

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No, but the series has done that sort of thing before where it's kind of explored the super.

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It suggested that it might be about to do the supernatural and then doesn't because it's actually going into the Matrix.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And that is what happens.

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But I do think I think that there's something that they are so on the same level after that performance by Clara after she's betrayed him.

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And, you know, he's able to say to her, no whining, no why me, none of that sort of stuff.

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Don't you know, stop inflating your eyes.

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Yes, yes, that's a brilliant thing.

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Like, you know, stop that with the eyes.

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But isn't it like when he says we're going to hell, right?

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Which I, as I said, I don't think quite works, but we're going to find Danny.

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So he's therefore suggesting that Danny is in hell.

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Is that right?

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Well, he says or the afterlife or whatever.

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Yeah, he does actually say that.

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I don't think that that quite works because I think you're unlikely to interpret it as anything other than Capaldi saying go to hell and it doesn't quite work otherwise.

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But I do think from then on, they're conspiring.

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They on the same level.

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They're much, much more like each other than they've ever been because she's done this sort of scary immoral thing and he, we're worried about his morality as well.

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So I like that.

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And I think for the rest of the episode, they're very much on the same level.

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Yeah.

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I will, I will say one thing, I particularly dislike is, um, you once told me what it would take to Mr. Rotardisky.

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Moffat repeatedly does.

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Clara once asked me if I dream.

199
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.839
Moffat repeatedly does this thing where someone says, oh, yeah, we talked about that once.

200
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:51.599
And it's like, oh, if only there was a writer who gives a script to every polish, who could have slipped that in somewhere?

201
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:53.160
But why does it need to be slipped?

202
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.799
We do that all the time with... that's okay.

203
00:17:55.859 --> 00:17:57.720
It just, it really...

204
00:17:57.779 --> 00:18:01.559
Remember at that point when the cameras weren't rolling, you told me this thing.

205
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.519
But I know about regeneration, says Mel.

206
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:07.259
Of course.

207
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.599
No, look, I agree.

208
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:11.279
How does Maldo about regeneration?

209
00:18:11.339 --> 00:18:12.059
Oh, you know.

210
00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:13.079
Because she met the valleyard.

211
00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:14.700
But no, I agree.

212
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:15.779
It's a problem there as well.

213
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:23.039
Like, I think the most egregious one is actually from Chipnolin's by four, which is, now, we've asked adopt plenty of times where she's from.

214
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:25.380
It's like, no, no, you haven't, Graham.

215
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.299
It's not a sandwich.

216
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:28.019
You're not interested.

217
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.039
But, you know, it doesn't totally spoil the scene for me.

218
00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:34.440
But I remember at the time going, oh, again.

219
00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:41.700
I mean, literally the only thing worse than that would be to stop a scene to have her ask him, what can destroy a tart?

220
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:42.539
That would be just terrible.

221
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:49.799
Like back in Robot of Sherwood, like the TARDIS key gets whacked with something and Clara's like, oh, God, it's survived.

222
00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:51.359
Oh yeah, to take a volcano, destroy it.

223
00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:53.819
You know, make it a throw away line way, way back.

224
00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:54.960
Yeah, fair enough.

225
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:57.960
I have much lower expectations on that one.

226
00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:22.740
But you do get all this dramatic stuff happening here, and because we are going into a two-part episode where you're going to have a lot more of that action in the 2nd part.

227
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:23.579
Yeah.

228
00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:37.799
And so the rest of this 1st part is the buildup to that cliffhanger and you are then focussing on, well, where is Danny and this whole nether sphere stuff, but also the wonderful Missy and who she is and on all of that anticipation.

229
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:45.420
So it does take a different turn after the drama and the tension of all of this, then it does take a step back as you begin to investigate.

230
00:19:45.480 --> 00:20:01.980
Yeah, in fact, it is kind of a sense in which there's just sort of one long scene or 2 scenes that we constantly intercart between, which is Danny's arrival in the nether sphere, which happens in parallel with Clara and the doctor's arrival at 3 W.

231
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:09.839
And it also has this sort of parallel thing where we both get the reveal at the same time.

232
00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:15.660
So Danny finds out that the reason his cold is because...

233
00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:18.900
Yeah, people continue experiencing sensations when they're dead.

234
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.640
And that's when Clara and the doctor discover about the don't cremate me thing.

235
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.119
And then those 2 scenes sort of collapse into one with the phone call.

236
00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:29.700
So and that's all that happens for the rest of the episode.

237
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.680
Like, it isn't very eventful.

238
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:46.440
That's sort of, um, again, it's guilty of it's needing to get to the cliffhanger, which is the reveal of Missy, the cybermen all coming out of their watery tombs, and, uh, you know, coming out of St.

239
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:47.519
Paul's and all that sort of stuff.

240
00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:49.559
Basically, it's a series of set pieces.

241
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:55.859
The death pre-credit sequence, the volcano sequence, and then we're just kind of wandering around some corridors.

242
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.380
Well, some very impressive corridors, I shouldn't say it like that.

243
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.619
But then we're just basically waiting for the climax.

244
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:10.259
Now, having said that, I love when, you know, scripting does that where you've got the 2 parallel scenes and they're finding out the same things and they link to each other and they complement each other.

245
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:23.460
But I just think I'd rather have lost some of that earlier parts so that we could have a bit more of a sensible buildup and interesting development and find out more about what other people are thinking about 3W rather than it just being this kind of isolated thing.

246
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.799
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't sort of go anywhere.

247
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.380
So it's a 3 WWE 3 WWE.

248
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:29.640
Yeah, invasion of the dinosaurs.

249
00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:32.640
St.

250
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:33.059
Paul's.

251
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:39.420
It's funny you should say that about the balance of incident and exposition.

252
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:46.019
Because something that Stephen Moffatt wanted to do with this is he had found with 2 parters in the new series in the past.

253
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:53.220
The 1st episode would be full of incident, and the 2nd episode would be full of explanation and people talking standing urgently in corridors.

254
00:21:53.279 --> 00:22:03.059
So I think what he's done here is he's flipped that and it's not necessarily totally successful because you still have an episode full of people standing urgently in corridors.

255
00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:04.440
Or graveyard.

256
00:22:04.500 --> 00:22:20.099
No, I think I think I think the floor with too many of the 2 parters is that they are 2 episodes as like, as in, there's an episode and then it goes into a second, another episode rather than it being something that's 90 minutes that's that's chopped in two.

257
00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:24.720
Yeah, whereas with some allowance for the fact that there's a break in the middle, obviously, not just, you know.

258
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:25.559
Yeah, yeah.

259
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:27.480
Whereas this was a one.

260
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.319
I don't think it was here in Australia, but certainly in America and the UK.

261
00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:32.579
This got a cinema screening.

262
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.180
Oh, really?

263
00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:34.559
Um, limited cinema screenings.

264
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:36.180
3DM. in 3D, yeah.

265
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.140
3D, goodness me.

266
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.000
About a month and a half after broadcast.

267
00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:40.140
Oh, after, right?

268
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:45.960
Yeah, sort of bridging because this season, of course, went out August to November, I think.

269
00:22:46.019 --> 00:22:48.480
So the Christmas special wasn't that far away.

270
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:51.720
So sort of halfway between the season and that they had these cinema screenings.

271
00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:55.440
I think there was even a 3D Blu-ray of it available for a little while.

272
00:22:55.500 --> 00:23:01.740
Do you think this feels more like a 90 minute story rather than 2 separate episodes there?

273
00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:02.519
No.

274
00:23:02.579 --> 00:23:02.819
No?

275
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.359
No, no, no.

276
00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:08.640
I still think it's got the, it's got the division and that's exacerbated by the fact that unit arrives at the beginning of the 2nd episode.

277
00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:09.240
Right.

278
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:09.480
Yeah.

279
00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:11.759
I mean, obviously that sort of thing happens in plastic.

280
00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:13.440
It's the black orchid problem, isn't it?

281
00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:17.940
Like we don't get the murder until halfway through the actual story.

282
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:24.839
And so as a whodunit, it's sort of massively unbalanced and there's a lot of just sort of facting about in episode one, which I love.

283
00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:25.740
Like, I'm not complaining.

284
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:33.000
Well, I suppose, I suppose what I'm trying to say, actually, what I'm trying to say is that is that the floor is, they start the 1st episode as if it's only one episode.

285
00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:49.740
And if you're going to have the 90 minutes, I want it to build, because that's the thing, as I've repeated frequently on this podcast, that I miss about the classic series, is that for all its other faults, you often, in a four-part story or 6+ story, you get the sense of it building so that you get the 1st reveal at the end of part one, and then it sort of goes from there.

286
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.759
Now you still get an expository or, you know, locked up episode 3 sometimes.

287
00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:57.660
But nevertheless, it means more when you get to the climax because you've had a longer thing.

288
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:08.279
Whereas for me, in these ones, they're trying to do the climax or climaxes too quickly so that when you get to the actual climax, I'm kind of going, well, this is actually, now we're somewhere completely different to where we started.

289
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:09.660
Because it's like a different episode.

290
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:19.559
Yeah, see, I think the, I think the, it's the opposite problem that we get the episode one reveal halfway through the story and then we have to do a whole bunch of stuff in the 2nd half.

291
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.759
Like they're stretching episode one.

292
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:21.599
Yeah.

293
00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:23.099
And this is a longer 2nd half.

294
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:32.460
I guess the advantage here is that we get more time to see Missy and we've been teased with Missy throughout the season and more time with Seb as well.

295
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.880
And I think they're both great.

296
00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:37.079
Oh, absolutely.

297
00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:38.519
I mean, spectacular.

298
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:40.140
I mean, I don't dislike this story.

299
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:41.460
I don't I don't love it.

300
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:46.079
But it's one of those ones where I wish, I sort of feel like, oh, this could be so much better.

301
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:57.539
Because there's so much great stuff in it, most particularly, obviously, Michelle Gomez is just spectacular and the lines that she's given, but I just want them to take the concept and I want to throw away this draft and I want it to be, I want it to be redrafted. you know what I mean?

302
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.579
Because I just think there's a better and more interesting way of doing it.

303
00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:01.140
They might well be.

304
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:06.599
But I'm actually quite satisfied with this because of all of those performances.

305
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:19.319
Seb is played perfectly by Chris Addison, the right level of humour, especially with the stuff with the burning of the bodies and that sort of thing, to try and take a bit of that away with the cremation.

306
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:24.720
Like, you know, the fact that he is quite a humourous character is sort of, I like that it's juxtaposed with what is actually going on.

307
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:30.599
And all of his sequences with Danny in the nether sphere, the promised land, I just think, are beautiful.

308
00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:34.619
I mean, I can ask just how good Samuel Anderson actually is as Danny Pink.

309
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:39.180
And I think he's really one of the most underrated actors and characters.

310
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.279
I mean, the entire history of New Herm.

311
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:56.519
He, I think, works really well up against Chris Addison, who is also, from the thick of it, like Capoldi, because there's something humiliating about how he's being disregarded by Addison.

312
00:25:56.579 --> 00:26:08.519
Like those scenes are still uncomfortable, even though they're played for comedy because he's put in this sort of weird science fiction situation and being patronised by this very strange comedy character.

313
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:14.460
There's that hilarious line about, you know, I'm going to get you to fill in some forms, you might find them relaxing.

314
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.799
No, you won't, but they need to be filthy.

315
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:17.640
Yeah, that's right.

316
00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:19.799
We've got a burner.

317
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:23.819
That's so great, isn't it?

318
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:25.500
I can see my house from here.

319
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:27.240
Sorry Not helping.

320
00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:33.480
I think the thing in like the dialogue and his performance is that he recognises he's doing a very boring job.

321
00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:36.900
Like I think he thinks the job is very boring and he's trying to make it more interesting.

322
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.480
Like the character. if you know what I mean?

323
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:40.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

324
00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:41.460
I think he's good.

325
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:42.599
Yeah, I definitely think he's good.

326
00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:46.140
Sometimes I wonder whether he steps over the line, a tag from time to time.

327
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:54.839
But I mean, it's the way it's written and it certainly it works and it does juxtapose against Danny's situation very, very, very, very well.

328
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:57.779
Because, you know, Seb is treating it all as a lark.

329
00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:58.319
Yes.

330
00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:01.680
Chris Addison, of course, is a big Doctor Who fan.

331
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:02.220
Is he?

332
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:09.539
And we'll see if we can find this clip for the show notes, but there's an episode of Have I got news for you that he does hosted by Tom Baker.

333
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.920
Oh my goodness me.

334
00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:17.279
And at one point, and I want to stress the better, this is from about 15 years ago, so US politics was very different.

335
00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:25.140
At one point, there's a story about Sarah Palin, and the photo they use is her of a, in a, in a rather low cut top.

336
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.279
So there is a bit of cleavage happening in the picture.

337
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:36.359
And after the picture appears, you cut back to Tom and goes, oh, and Chris Addison just slams his hand down on the desk.

338
00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:39.960
I wanted to meet you so much when I was a kid, Tom Baker, so much.

339
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:41.279
Now look at it.

340
00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:46.319
And you cut back to Tom just utterly confused and abused.

341
00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:47.039
Yes, yeah.

342
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:50.759
To have Chris in there.

343
00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:52.380
And it's kind it's kind of funny.

344
00:27:52.440 --> 00:28:00.599
I think, yeah, sometimes the mask slips a little and you get the impression that, no, he really enjoys screwing around with Danny's head.

345
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:02.880
But I think that actually works.

346
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:12.539
But also having the young boy and the flashbacks to what's gone on there, extremely well shot by Rachel.

347
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:13.259
Yeah.

348
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:13.859
Yeah, yeah.

349
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:20.700
It really struck me this time because it is, you know, it still looks like a street, like a suburban street.

350
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:24.359
It's not, you know, like out in the desert or anything. cars and stuff, but there's houses.

351
00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:25.619
When he's doing the Afghanistan.

352
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.599
Yeah, he's obviously supposed to be Carmel as well, yeah.

353
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:28.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

354
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:29.700
I think that is really great.

355
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:36.660
And apparently the boy, I think his name is Fleming and he's in episode one.

356
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:41.700
He's the little boy in the maths class who asks Danny if he's ever killed anyone.

357
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.400
He gets a credit in this episode.

358
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:54.420
Yeah, there was meant to be, I think, a remounted flashback to that scene, to shoot it from a slightly different angle to emphasise Danny's risk.

359
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:55.200
Yeah, discomfort.

360
00:28:55.259 --> 00:28:55.799
Yeah.

361
00:28:55.859 --> 00:29:05.819
And also originally the boy that Danny kills did have dialogue with Danny in the script, but it comes across a bit Moffatt clever kid dialogue.

362
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:19.380
And, you know, kids are often a lot more clever than we grown-ups give them credit for, but I think giving that character that kind of dialogue would have undermined the trauma and drama of the situation.

363
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.619
Like, originally he wasn't just meant to appear behind Danny.

364
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:33.839
He was actually meant to grab Danny's hand at the conclusion of the episode and say, this time it doesn't have to be that way, which is a great line, but also, you know, it's a bit cow in silence of the library.

365
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:42.660
And I think having him quiet, but implying that he is speaking to Danny off camera is a lot more powerful than anything that could be written.

366
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.240
I just assumed he couldn't speak English.

367
00:29:45.299 --> 00:29:46.680
Yeah, I agree.

368
00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:47.579
I thought, yeah.

369
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:49.680
I just assume he was a non-speaking part.

370
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:52.680
Well, you know, I think that's better.

371
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:59.940
I do like the fact that Danny tries to reach out to him because he's a teacher and he cares about children and all of that sort of thing and right leave.

372
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:01.079
The kid runs on.

373
00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:05.640
I still think that, and I sort of indicated this early in early episodes.

374
00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:07.259
I just think this was a bad place to be coming.

375
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:10.140
Well, see, I...

376
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:18.660
Yeah, I think that we actually come down on a kind of pro soldier take.

377
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:20.220
I think the soldiers win.

378
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:21.599
And I think that's a problem.

379
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.299
And we'll talk about that, I think, a little bit next week.

380
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:27.180
No, that's not, okay, that's not what I'm talking about in this instance.

381
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:37.200
I'm more talking about the, when you do a science fiction, science fiction, you know, you highlight current world problems through allegory and through parallels and stuff like that.

382
00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:41.519
And I think that it's just, I don't think it's just what Doctor Who should be doing.

383
00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:52.200
You should certainly be dealing with those sorts of issues, but I don't think you should be doing it using the actual setting and an actual person from an actual situation that is still very much present day at the time.

384
00:30:52.259 --> 00:31:04.859
I think we discovered that during this era there were a lot of, or there was a program to get soldiers fast tracked through their teacher education to end up being teachers.

385
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:13.619
And so having a soldier there, like, I kind of think that's okay, that was a thing that we were involved in for a long time.

386
00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:21.420
And, you know, Doctor Who didn't engage with the real world quite so much in the classic series.

387
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.740
And I always like it a little bit better now that it does do that.

388
00:31:26.220 --> 00:31:34.440
The reason I say that is because it can never deal with it at a level which something like this needs to be dealt with.

389
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:36.420
You know, it's like fear her.

390
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:48.119
You know, fear her dealing with domestic violence in a way that appears very real, but it's like, is this something we want Doctor Who exploring?

391
00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:50.700
Is it capable of exploring it in 45 minutes?

392
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:55.259
Probably not to any sort of level of meaningful commentary.

393
00:31:55.319 --> 00:32:08.039
I mean, I think fear her does a reasonable job of making the father scary in a way that is allegorical or alien or not real, you know, that actually distances it a little bit.

394
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:09.480
But here.

395
00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:11.940
Look, I think that's probably fair enough.

396
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.599
There are things that Doctor Who isn't capable of dealing with.

397
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:18.539
But I'd sooner tried to push the boundaries a little bit.

398
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:19.859
Oh, look, fine.

399
00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:22.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

400
00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:24.660
I guess part of me, it's too complex.

401
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:32.099
A part of me in this sort of goes, had Jenna gone at the beginning of the season and said, I'm definitely leaving before the Christmas special.

402
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:38.940
Would that have then influenced where he took the characters or what he did with Danny and her, right?

403
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.519
Question we'll never know, right?

404
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:44.400
Because, yeah.

405
00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:46.799
So would that have changed this, right?

406
00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:49.319
Even if she'd come to him halfway through the season?

407
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.740
Like, that's probably too late because he's probably set things in motion.

408
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:58.680
So I think we've got what we were always going to get from Steve and what he wanted to explore.

409
00:32:58.740 --> 00:33:07.920
That's what I'm trying to say, no matter what, you know, whether we think Doctor can actually have an actual solid handle and something like this.

410
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:18.000
I think I'm sort of in agreement with you, Simon, in terms of can it do the job that we needed to do, to the level that it needs to be done.

411
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:24.960
And it certainly goes a long way there, but does it actually hit the mark fully?

412
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:30.960
I mean, the whole point is that it has to create a level of guilt inside him.

413
00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:35.220
Guilt about something, you know, something horrible he feels he's done early in his life.

414
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:38.819
So he's going to hit the delete button or hover over the delete button.

415
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:43.019
So I get story wise why in this instance it's been put there.

416
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:44.640
And it's different to the earlier soldier thing.

417
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:49.019
But I mean, his decision to try and press the button or he's hovering near the button.

418
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:49.619
That decision.

419
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:56.819
Obviously, the boy is reflected in the iPad screen in a fairly kind of unsubtle way.

420
00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:04.740
But he has also had that conversation with Clara, where he's had to pull the plug on it to prevent her from following him.

421
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:10.920
She's made it very clear that she will follow him no matter what that means.

422
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:13.800
And so when he says, I love you, I love you.

423
00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:17.039
He's trying to stop her, obviously, from doing that, which I think is great.

424
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:28.019
In fact, I thought that the reason that he couldn't say anything personal is that he's only an approximation of Danny in a way because, you know, it's like the mind has been sort of captured by the nether sphere on the point of death.

425
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:31.619
And so it doesn't have that information, but I don't think the show works.

426
00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:33.239
No, I don't. that's right.

427
00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:34.739
I think it's supposed to be actually him.

428
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:35.280
Yeah, yeah.

429
00:34:35.340 --> 00:34:42.480
See, that's one of the scenes that I have a problem with where he just keeps going, I love you, I love you, and not getting anywhere. their butting heads together.

430
00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:49.559
It's just showing me how those 2 characters actually have been.

431
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:56.699
But it's him deliberately ignoring her instructions to say something real.

432
00:34:56.760 --> 00:35:02.280
She says, if you don't give me this information, I am going to hang up and end this call.

433
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:06.539
And so he just says I love you and she says, you know, no, no, don't say that.

434
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:11.699
And he keeps saying it so that she will hang up and so that she won't keep pursuing him.

435
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:17.460
I think that's great and it is a very moffity thing to take something that means a definite thing.

436
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:20.699
I love you and turn it into something that means something else entirely.

437
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:27.780
And there's also the fact that at the beginning of the story, Clara has said to Danny, no, no, no, the words by themselves don't mean anything.

438
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.280
Whereas when he's saying them here, they mean everything.

439
00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:36.000
They mean no, you have to go on living.

440
00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:36.599
Yeah.

441
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:38.940
You know, I'm not that important.

442
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.559
Yeah, it is you have to let me go.

443
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:41.159
Yeah.

444
00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:50.820
And also Moffatt has said in interviews that the deliberate subtext, which Peter Capaldi and Rachel Talais were aware of in the line.

445
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.360
Do you think I care so little for you that betraying me would make a difference.

446
00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:56.940
Is the doctor saying I love you?

447
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:09.239
But not in a romantic way, but this Moffatt said, this is the moment where he actually is conveying his feelings, but he still can't quite say those words, but this is his way of saying those words.

448
00:36:11.099 --> 00:36:27.059
It yeah, it just really struck me watching this episode again, these 2 episodes, how the themes of love and forgiveness come across in ways that aren't just people saying, I love you when I forgive you.

449
00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:31.079
People take different actions to show those words.

450
00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:37.739
And I think it's one of Moffatt's most thematically rich stories.

451
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:44.280
And, you know, considering he's done the girl in the fireplace and the empty child, the doctor dances, which are both about love as well.

452
00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:51.659
Yeah, I remember liking this at the time, but feeling uncomfortable with some of the darker tones, but watching it again.

453
00:36:51.719 --> 00:37:00.539
I'm just like, this is dark and beautiful and lyrical all at once and it's a Doctor Who story.

454
00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:10.380
Even the title, Dark Water, which gets shoehorned into the action, it's the special x-ray water that means that we can't see the cycle and exoskeleton.

455
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:11.519
Which is all just for effect.

456
00:37:11.579 --> 00:37:12.119
Yeah.

457
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:13.800
Because, I mean, that's what that's okay.

458
00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:15.179
Yeah, obviously.

459
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:16.440
I mean, people do things for effect.

460
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:21.360
But there were so many interesting things there they could have done more with, but it's just a sort of series of set pieces.

461
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:22.019
Yeah.

462
00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:27.239
Like, that's why I feel it would have been more interesting if the Darkwater had a played some other role.

463
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:38.760
Like, what is the point of having all these cybermen in these tanks with the water hiding their exoskeletons, because what normal person is going to want to see the decaying corps of their loved one?

464
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:40.320
It just doesn't make any sense.

465
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:50.820
And I know the dark water then kind of is the thing that's carrying the, I don't know, cybermites, whatever the hell they are that turns people into cybermen, but it's all a little bit, oh, we could have this.

466
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:51.420
And let's do this.

467
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:52.139
Oh, we should do this.

468
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:53.880
Oh, and we need to have them coming down the steps of St.

469
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:54.239
Paul's.

470
00:37:54.300 --> 00:38:02.579
And, you know, and let's just do it all and not really worry about how it actually, when you sit down and think about it, You go, actually, that's my main problem with it.

471
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.159
See, I think it's just there to be the title.

472
00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:09.300
Like, I think the phrase dark water is so strange and my point.

473
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:10.500
Yeah, it's a beautiful title, yeah.

474
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:11.820
So let's let's do that.

475
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.239
Let's explore that rather than, you know, look, I take your point.

476
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:24.960
But I do just love the fact that they turn and you as the audience know that there's something up and you're, like, in classic who often wants to step ahead of the doctor working things out.

477
00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:27.239
Although there is one point, you know, when the doors close.

478
00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:28.320
Oh, that's fantastic.

479
00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:30.239
I love that sort of thing.

480
00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:30.960
You don't like that?

481
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:31.980
No, no, no.

482
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:33.059
When the drawers close, that's fine.

483
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:37.139
But then the musical sting that goes, no, no, whatever.

484
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.559
I just kind of thought, just hold back a little bit on that.

485
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:42.119
Turn the volume down.

486
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:43.320
Just a little bit.

487
00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:46.739
But I love all that, the fact that we're getting to know all this.

488
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.440
And of course, you know, having Dr. Chang there.

489
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:52.320
God, I love the way Missy says, I can't do it.

490
00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:53.519
Dr. Chan.

491
00:38:53.639 --> 00:39:02.820
But that reveal, the door's closing with the sidemen eyes, and that symbol has been the symbol for 3W all the way along.

492
00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:11.460
We do have one fade from Danny, whose eye has a tear in the corner of it.

493
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:16.920
We fade across to that symbol inside the 3W institute.

494
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.199
And so that's already done.

495
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:36.059
And I think the incredible thing about it is that Russell's insistence when the cybermen were redesigned, the one thing he said had to happen was that they had to have that little tear in the corner of the eye, which is in no way what it was intended to be.

496
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.219
I'm sure it's just there so the actors can see or something.

497
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.139
Like, I'd advise it there in the original...

498
00:39:40.139 --> 00:39:41.880
Also, they could put a drill hole in.

499
00:39:41.940 --> 00:40:01.920
There's no reason for it, but because Russell's cyberman have been turned emotionless and the thing that defeats them in the 2 parter in series 2 is he switches their emotions back on and they, you know, explode and stuff, look in the mirror and blow up or whatever.

500
00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:03.539
So that's brilliant.

501
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:07.320
I think that that's really great and it is hinted at, you know, enough.

502
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:09.780
So that when the things close.

503
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.480
Like, I don't think there's any need to be subtle from then on.

504
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:13.440
We know what they are.

505
00:40:13.500 --> 00:40:17.099
We've even had a reference to them sitting in tubes and we've had the shots.

506
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:19.739
Like the tomb shots. you know?

507
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:26.099
One of the few things I do like about the 2nd episode, which I know we're not talking about now, but I won't get a chance to in the moment.

508
00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:38.460
But is where Danny's begging Clara to turn the emotional inhimitor on because I think that's what actually gets at something which I feel has been missed so much with a cyberman is that their underlying tragedy.

509
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:45.659
See, I've always sort of seen it, that they're not emotionless because, you know, some evil person decided to wipe all the emotions because they'll be more efficient.

510
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:50.519
They turn their emotions off because they can't handle what they've become.

511
00:40:50.579 --> 00:40:53.880
And that's the underlying tragedy which is rarely touched on.

512
00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:56.699
But it is in that Cyberman 2 parter in series too.

513
00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.940
Yes, that's one of the few times, yeah.

514
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:06.840
And I think at the end of series 10, where we turn the volume down on the cybermen, so we don't have to hear that.

515
00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:07.679
Yeah, exactly.

516
00:41:07.739 --> 00:41:07.980
Yeah.

517
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:16.860
And, you know, we, um, a while ago talked about the next doctor, of course, and as silly as parts of that are, parts.

518
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:29.940
But the solution hinges on the fact that the doctor reminds Miss Hartigan of her lost humanity in the coming, and that is what destroys society men.

519
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:37.260
Now, even Russell has said he wanted to rework that ending like 2 weeks after they shot it and he realised he, you know, kind of went too far.

520
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:39.300
But yeah, I agree with you, Simon.

521
00:41:39.300 --> 00:41:43.739
The sidemen are far more effective when we juxtapose what they lose.

522
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:47.400
You know, one of Davison's defining moments is the well-prepared meal.

523
00:41:47.460 --> 00:41:50.159
Flower, smelling a well-prepared flower.

524
00:41:51.239 --> 00:42:03.000
But in the next episode, except for Danny, we kind of gloss over that, which is a shame because I think one of the problems I have with this at the time because I love Cybermen is that they do take a backseat in the next episode.

525
00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:04.920
But then again...

526
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:07.079
Yeah, they're taking a backseat to Michelle Gomez.

527
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:08.519
Yes, it's hard to complain.

528
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:09.780
Perfectly...

529
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.599
Can I speak in praise of Dr. Chang a bit more?

530
00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:19.019
Yes.

531
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:19.920
Yes.

532
00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:24.539
We've got Andrew Leong and this was really one of his 1st major roles.

533
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:30.599
He did an earlier drama called Lilting, which is only in briefly, but his boyfriend in that is played by Ben Wishaw.

534
00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:33.840
Yeah, that must be where I recognise him from them.

535
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:35.460
He's so pretty, isn't he lovely?

536
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.639
And yeah, he's done a lot of other guest spots and other things.

537
00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:49.980
But something I find so interesting about the character is he seems to be written as a parody somewhat of the last 2 doctors before Capaldi because he's got the brainy specs and the tight suit.

538
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:51.900
He sounds like Matt Smith.

539
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:57.599
And when he's talking about the properties of Dark War, he's inappropriately sexual, like we should put this in swimming pools.

540
00:42:57.659 --> 00:43:04.019
And our doctor now who doesn't go in for that sort of thing like the last 2 doctors did is why?

541
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:09.360
And it's, it's, it's kind of that thing now of if someone makes it an appropriate joke.

542
00:43:09.420 --> 00:43:11.460
The best way to challenge them is go. you explain that?

543
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:19.800
But the other thing about I love about Dr. Chang, perhaps more so than Seb, although Seb sort of fills the role as well, is that they are the master's companions.

544
00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:23.760
And we don't actually get master's companions that often.

545
00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:34.019
But when we do, they're always fabulous and it works so well with Michelle Gomez because these 2 guys are exactly the kind of companions that that master would have. terribly gay.

546
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.219
Yes, terrible gay.

547
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:36.179
Quite pretty.

548
00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:38.579
Quite enthusiastic.

549
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:40.980
Yeah, when do we get more Changli?

550
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:43.860
Can we just talk about Michelle?

551
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:46.019
Oh, can we please just talk about Michelle?

552
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:49.800
She is unquestionably the possibly the best master ever.

553
00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:50.699
I think she is.

554
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:55.679
But certainly at least the only one that comes level with Delgado.

555
00:43:55.739 --> 00:44:00.119
And if I can explain further, apart from the fact that just the performances are great.

556
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:12.360
Because like the Delgado master, when you have the doctor and the master in the room together with a stranger who isn't sure which one to trust, it's the master who always has to come across as the more sophisticated, the more in control, the more elegant.

557
00:44:12.420 --> 00:44:18.300
And the doctor should always come across as slightly shambolic and slightly manic and slightly like he is actually the mad person.

558
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:18.900
Yeah.

559
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:22.260
And that's where I think the John Sims master gets it wrong.

560
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.420
That's where I think the Ainley master also gets it wrong.

561
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:30.780
The Sasha Duan master is unfortunately poorly written, but I would like to see a better Sasha Duan version.

562
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:36.719
But Michelle gets it right and also she walks the right side of the camp line as well.

563
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:44.280
It's just got to be on that edge and it has to be over the top without completely cheering the scenery and I think she does it really, really well.

564
00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:48.239
It's actually interesting that when John Sims comes back in world enough and time.

565
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:50.760
It's actually a much better performance because I think it's written.

566
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.219
I think that comes down to the writing and the way it's written.

567
00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:56.460
And of course, the excellent Moffatt dialogue that he gives her.

568
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:57.719
It's just it's just perfect.

569
00:44:57.780 --> 00:44:59.039
I mean, there's line after line.

570
00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:01.380
But the way she says it, the way she delivers them.

571
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:04.860
There's so much going on in the eyes and the eyebrows and the lips.

572
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.039
I'm not a dalek.

573
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:11.099
Like, it's just little things like that.

574
00:45:11.099 --> 00:45:12.900
Oh, kissing Capaldi.

575
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:13.800
And on nose.

576
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:15.840
Yes. 3 times on the nose.

577
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:20.039
And then lunging for Jenna with her mouth open as well.

578
00:45:21.659 --> 00:45:24.000
There's so much going on in that performance.

579
00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:25.079
It's so good.

580
00:45:25.139 --> 00:45:34.440
She's so fantastically funny and he gives her one solid murder per episode in this story and they're quite upsetting.

581
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:36.840
And, you know, that thing.

582
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:37.800
Don't be so selfish.

583
00:45:37.860 --> 00:45:39.239
I'll miss him too or whatever.

584
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:40.320
Or is that...

585
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:41.219
That's next week.

586
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.360
But she's sort of upset that this has happened as well.

587
00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:51.960
You know, I have to live with this after your death. say something nice.

588
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:53.699
So good.

589
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.139
She's so magnificent.

590
00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:56.579
I also like, I'll give you a countdown.

591
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:59.820
Would that distract you or concentrate?

592
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:13.739
So she's really, really terrifically, properly funny, and she puts Capoli on the back foot, and it is the thing where she has to be more fun than the doctor, and that's what the master should always be.

593
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.500
The master should be more fun than the doctor.

594
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:18.119
Normal fun, better.

595
00:46:18.179 --> 00:46:18.900
Like more...

596
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:19.679
Yeah, yeah.

597
00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:23.880
It's always for me sophistication and elegance, which is what makes the best master moments.

598
00:46:23.940 --> 00:46:28.320
You know, it's when Delgado's swanning around in a suit and with a cigar. love those moments.

599
00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:36.000
I think that the big Delgado moment for me is Claus of Axos, where the doctor's off, being annoying and unpleasant and difficult.

600
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:40.139
And the master's being sort of super charming and...

601
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:40.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

602
00:46:40.980 --> 00:46:50.940
It's funny what you say with Ainley, because arguably Ainley's 2 best performances in the role are in Planet of Fire and survival where they give him some really nice suits.

603
00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:55.199
Yeah, but I was going to say, and in both cases, the performance is more underplayed.

604
00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:55.679
Yes.

605
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:55.980
Yeah.

606
00:46:55.980 --> 00:47:00.480
And, you know, he's playing chameleon, which gives him another scope.

607
00:47:00.539 --> 00:47:04.079
And again, he gets a rapport with Perry in that story.

608
00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:08.760
You give the master a rapport with a companion and it improves them immeasurably.

609
00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:12.179
And even with Dwan, as you were saying, stick with me, Yaz.

610
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:12.960
Yeah.

611
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:17.519
And then in power of the doctor, again, when he's bored with talking to the doctor, he talks to Yaz.

612
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:18.300
Yeah.

613
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:20.760
Your dad was rubbish.

614
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:24.840
But Michelle is just magnetic.

615
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:30.900
That kissing scene, there's a take where she's holding Clara's hand while she's kissing the top.

616
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:31.500
Really?

617
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:34.320
It's one of the, she's one of those actresses where it's different each time.

618
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:35.099
Yeah, yeah.

619
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:41.039
But I think also it was meant to foreshadow her explaining her link to Clara in the next episode.

620
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:45.119
Moffatt had 2 or 3 ideas as to who the woman in the shop was.

621
00:47:45.179 --> 00:47:53.340
One of them was the master, but another idea he had was, it's a Clara Splinter who was born in 1920 who made our...

622
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:54.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

623
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:56.579
And I think he sort of came to the conclusion.

624
00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:03.119
No, it's much more fun if it's if it's the master putting the doctor and Clara together and putting the ad in the paper in deep breath.

625
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:04.320
Yeah.

626
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:21.059
I just love all the dialogue and the whole reveal, like when they're out on the street and she's talking about a ranting Scotsman, and then that close, when they're close together, and you think that she's going to deliver the dialogue of who she is, but then the doctor has to give that extra, that, like, who's missy?

627
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:22.619
that extra bit that it has to go.

628
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.440
I couldn't keep calling myself master.

629
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:28.019
Like, it's just, oh, it's just delicious.

630
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:34.739
Like all of that performance intercut. with what's going on with Danny and the whole direction.

631
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:46.320
Like, I just, this is not my favourite episode 11 or, but it's, it's, I just think, despite what we've said earlier about advancing the plot and that sort of thing.

632
00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:53.039
It is so rich in what it delivers, that I really, really enjoyed this so much.

633
00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:55.440
Like, this is a 9 out of 10, 9 out of 10 for me.

634
00:48:55.500 --> 00:49:01.619
Like it's not never going to be my favourite, but I just really buy into the whole thing.

635
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:07.380
I mean, 9 is far too excessive for me, but that's why I'm sort of saying that I don't love it, but I don't hate it.

636
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.500
I'm certainly enjoying it, but I just think, oh, I wish I wish you could have done it better.

637
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.980
But also I love with Michelle Gomez, there are so many of those lines that are just thrown away.

638
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:15.000
Like, oh, time lady.

639
00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:15.960
I'm old-fashioned.

640
00:49:16.019 --> 00:49:19.320
You know, it's it's that and I think that's what makes a great performance as well.

641
00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:21.360
It's not every, every line is not important.

642
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.539
No She can read it and be directed.

643
00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:28.619
Well, I think it's more her, probably. that she can throw away those lines.

644
00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:30.300
Well, she knows how to deliver those sorts of lines.

645
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.340
I think is as much of what it is.

646
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:33.960
No, no, just, just, just sublime.

647
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:35.340
It's so good, isn't it?

648
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:38.820
I just think she is the character working properly.

649
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.679
Perhaps fully for the 1st time.

650
00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:48.119
Yeah, and what I was going to say a moment ago is that that sense that we get from her master is how close the doctor and she were as children.

651
00:49:48.179 --> 00:49:52.980
Which is kind of always suggested that, oh, yes, they were friends in school or college or whatever the hell it was.

652
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:59.099
Whereas I actually get a real sense that she really likes him, that they're actually very close.

653
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:00.900
It's like that line in the next season.

654
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:02.519
You know, I see that couple over there.

655
00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:03.239
You're the dog.

656
00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:27.059
That whole reveal, like I actually went onto YouTube and I watched people react all the reactions to it, and there was this one poor unfortunate boy who would have been a teenager, and he was saying it at the same time, and instead of saying the master, It was the Mistress Romana.

657
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:31.920
That's what he wanted it to be, like it actually says like the Mistress Romana.

658
00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:41.880
And then you see the look on his face when it's like missy and how devastated he is that it's actually not because he never thought that the master would be a woman.

659
00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:42.360
A woman.

660
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:45.840
So props to Moffatt for making the master a woman.

661
00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:46.619
We kind of forget.

662
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:49.559
Like he, he, he paves the way.

663
00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:50.400
He paves the way.

664
00:50:50.460 --> 00:51:00.719
And he does that with diversity a bit like with Rachel Tallalalay's, you know, she's the 1st woman to direct an episode since like series 2 or something or three.

665
00:51:00.780 --> 00:51:01.800
Really?

666
00:51:01.860 --> 00:51:03.119
Is it Catherine Tregana?

667
00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:07.199
Yeah, I think there was Alice Troughton in series 3 and then we haven't had...

668
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:13.980
Yes, that's right We haven't, like, that's a thing that he's done and then, obviously, Chris Chibnall took it further.

669
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.139
He'd never managed to get it quite far enough.

670
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:22.440
And I'm kind of a little bit happy that we didn't get a female doctor from Stephen Moffat, to be honest.

671
00:51:22.500 --> 00:51:31.679
But, like, the character works as a woman and that reveal could not have worked if it had been anything else other than the master.

672
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:33.179
The Rani.

673
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:34.739
Yeah, so no, of course not.

674
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:35.460
Of course not.

675
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:36.360
That's the reason.

676
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:37.139
Who cares?

677
00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:40.500
You know, the Rani was in 2 episodes before most of the audience were born.

678
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:42.539
Yes, we call them stories, but...

679
00:51:42.539 --> 00:51:43.980
Vivian Faye.

680
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:44.639
Yep, yeah.

681
00:51:44.699 --> 00:51:45.420
Well, yes.

682
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:47.579
It's a Sarah Diplos.

683
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:54.179
I don't think it's a surprise to anyone in the room or anyone listening at home that I freaking love the Rani.

684
00:51:54.300 --> 00:51:58.800
But even I have kind of thought there's no reason to bring the Rani back.

685
00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:03.719
You know, the Rani is a very 80s villain with the dynasty era.

686
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:12.000
Well, dynasty era with the portrayal, but also a sort of DNA mad scientist is a very 1980s horror movie idea.

687
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:21.539
But I have to say, in common with that young man's disappointment, when she said the Time Lord, you abandoned and then Mistress.

688
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.360
I thought it was Roman. by Susan.

689
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:25.800
Romana.

690
00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:38.639
I thought it was evil Romana, because the BBC books, the 8th doctor novels, had done an amoral 30 incarnation of Romana, at sort of at the dawn of the time war before it was called.

691
00:52:38.699 --> 00:52:45.960
Well, what would have been the worst outcome was had it been Evil Romana, who actually then is subsequently the Rani, which is how the, like, it's like the Rani's origin story.

692
00:52:46.019 --> 00:52:48.239
I really would have punched the screen.

693
00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:51.360
But if I can say it's not...

694
00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:55.619
It's not it's not so much the fact that who cares if it was the Rani?

695
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.559
Because I think there's no reason if you wanted to have the Rani come back.

696
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:03.840
But you cannot have a season-long build up and then it'd be there aren't. you know what I mean?

697
00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:06.239
If you're going to have the Rani back, you just have her in an episode.

698
00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:08.699
Yeah, like the macro, like the, for example.

699
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:14.699
The macro coming back is great because it happens without fanfare without buildup, they're just there.

700
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:18.420
Yeah, if I can imagine a season-long reveal where it's the fish people from there.

701
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.079
Oh, going to be wonderful.

702
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:50.400
Well, it looks like there's a lot of cybermen about, so we're off.

703
00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:55.679
We'll catch you next week, along with everyone who has ever died ever, in death in heaven.

704
00:53:56.099 --> 00:54:14.460
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter, and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek Project.

705
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.199
Until next time, rest in peace, we promise.

706
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:21.780
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

707
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:22.559
Good night.

708
00:54:22.619 --> 00:54:24.059
See you soon.

709
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:24.900
Bye for now.

710
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:27.960
I'm going to go punch Cyber Savile in the face.

711
00:54:34.980 --> 00:54:41.039
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Beelby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Simon Moore.

712
00:54:41.099 --> 00:54:43.320
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

713
00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:49.079
This episode, terribly gay, was recorded on the 4th of June 2023 and released on the 25th of June.

714
00:54:52.500 --> 00:55:06.360
Darkwater screened when I was 45 years old, but had it aired when I was 10, and I found out then that I could come back from the dead as a 2nd rate Doctor Who Monster, from then on, I think, I would have been much, much less careful crossing the road.

715
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:16.079
Oh, God, Murray Gold does the chromophone band for 5 minutes.

716
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:17.280
And that's it.

717
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:19.199
How do people feel?

718
00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:26.519
I actually really like the, the idea of ending with the season longer of the, season long arc leading to the reveal of the fish people.

719
00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:28.320
Yeah, that was good.

720
00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:32.940
I think we've said everything, everything else I have to say is actually more applicable to the next episode.

721
00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:35.820
Yeah, I mean, which is appalling.

722
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.239
I don't think it's appalling but I do think it's bad in all sorts of ways.

723
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:46.619
It's unfortunate, but I still enjoy myself because it's got lots of fabulous, like killing Osgood is just so great.

724
00:55:46.739 --> 00:55:48.539
She comes she does come back.

725
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:50.880
Well, because she was already to Osgood's in Day of the Doctor.

726
00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:51.420
Yeah.

727
00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:54.599
Oh, of course, of course, of course.

728
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:57.539
And so when they bring her back, it's in a Zigon story.

729
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:00.000
Yes, yes, we get to have a...

730
00:56:00.059 --> 00:56:02.159
Yeah, I mean, to me, it's that thing.

731
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:07.139
It starts, what it does is it turns into the RTD style finale, which is...

732
00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:08.400
Well, I don't think it's enough like that.

733
00:56:08.460 --> 00:56:14.760
Well, no, because it's all just, it's all just a whole lot of extraordinary stuff happening, but I'm just going through going, I just don't care.

734
00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:15.420
I don't care.

735
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:20.639
Like, it's all big playing things and... love all of that.

736
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:23.280
But no, but all the part I love is everything apart from that.

737
00:56:23.340 --> 00:56:26.219
Like it's all of the sequences with Missy and Osgood.

738
00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.440
It's all the doctor talking.

739
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:29.940
That thing, the countdown.

740
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.860
That's where they came down to cemetery.

741
00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:33.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. where I'll give you a countdown.

742
00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:34.380
Yeah, yeah.

743
00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:36.360
And where she says, I'm not important or something.

744
00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:38.760
It's like, you should have some more confidence in yourself.

745
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:40.980
Like it's so great.

746
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:43.139
When did she say, when did she say I like the accent?

747
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:43.739
I'll keep it.

748
00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:44.880
Oh, that's in it.

749
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:45.840
That's in deep breath.

750
00:56:45.900 --> 00:56:46.920
Oh, that's a deep breath.

751
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.480
Spoiler alert, Simon.

752
00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:54.480
I'm going to have a todd experience. next episode.

753
00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:56.340
You're gonna love it.

754
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.320
Did you hate it the 1st time I rated you?

755
00:56:58.380 --> 00:57:00.599
I did not particularly like a lot of aspects.

756
00:57:00.659 --> 00:57:03.960
But I mean, also... very middling, but it's gone up substantially enough.

757
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:06.000
It's just...

758
00:57:06.059 --> 00:57:08.159
Well, I just think I think everyone being dead.

759
00:57:08.219 --> 00:57:12.360
Like, I think literally everyone who's ever died comes back as a cyberman.

760
00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:14.039
Like, I think maybe that's too much.

761
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:19.019
But then I hate people who say that Dodo is out there, yes.

762
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:25.920
When I 1st watched it, I was furious about the cyber dad.

763
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:27.599
Yes. cyber break.

764
00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:28.019
Yeah.

765
00:57:28.019 --> 00:57:31.679
No, I'm still furious about it.

766
00:57:31.739 --> 00:57:33.840
I cried this time.

767
00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:34.500
No.

768
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:35.280
No.

769
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:37.739
I'm sorry, I had a complete...

770
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:41.400
I had an extreme trot experience and I look on it very differently now.

771
00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:51.719
I like I like to think like a visual metaphor of the extreme Todd experience for the blister at home is Todd going skydiving and then as he lands going, Delta and the Batterman's fine.

772
00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:59.699
Brendan, on 2 counts, that will never...

773
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:06.599
No, it's just, it's just, it just could have been so much more interesting and much more dramatic and have an actual build.

774
00:58:06.659 --> 00:58:08.760
It's just the whole the whole thing just...

775
00:58:08.820 --> 00:58:09.719
I think it's a bit of a mess.

776
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:11.940
But I do think that it's an entertaining mess.

777
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.920
Of course, they're always entertaining.

778
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:15.300
But that's all right.

779
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:17.280
There are worse ambitions to have.

780
00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:19.199
I want more.

781
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:21.059
Yeah.

782
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:26.219
Yeah, you get more next year, I guess, is, you know, having set in hell band.

783
00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:27.360
Oh, they're much better.

784
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:28.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

785
00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:29.820
No, this was a retro.

786
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:33.360
For me, this is a retrograde step in the finale.

787
00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:36.840
Yeah, but I mean, it is also like the, the, St.

788
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:38.519
Paul's dome opens and...

789
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:40.800
Oh, that's supposed to be.

790
00:58:40.860 --> 00:58:41.940
I think this is the face of it.

791
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:45.059
I think there's a lot to really love in the finale.

792
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:46.500
There is a lot to love in the finale.

793
00:58:46.619 --> 00:58:47.820
But there are some things.

794
00:58:47.940 --> 00:58:49.199
But there are some substantial things.

795
00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:50.760
No, just some.

796
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:54.480
I love the, there's the, the Sylvia Anderson line.

797
00:58:54.539 --> 00:58:55.679
Do you remember that?

798
00:58:55.739 --> 00:58:58.380
Like, he says, can we go to cloud base?

799
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.900
The doctor says, can we go to climb?

800
00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:01.619
Yes, yes.

801
00:59:01.739 --> 00:59:02.940
And oh, as good, correct.

802
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:04.920
Simmons says, no, that's the Thunderbirds.

803
00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:07.679
It was the valley, that Kyle Bayes is the Thunderbirds.

804
00:59:07.739 --> 00:59:10.920
And then general...

805
00:59:10.980 --> 00:59:13.019
Yeah, general thing.

806
00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:13.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

807
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:18.179
I know, for God's sake, says, no, that was Captain Scarlett.

808
00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:24.059
And the doctor goes, you can, like, I'm so, I'm really excited to be in your care.

809
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:27.719
But me and Sylvia Anderson.

810
00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:29.460
You never saw a fox trot like it.

811
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:31.320
Like, that is great.

812
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:34.079
I also didn't like the whole president of earth thing.

813
00:59:34.139 --> 00:59:36.599
It's like, no, no, no, doctor's supposed to be. all that kind of stuff.

814
00:59:37.019 --> 00:59:41.099
And I don't like destroying planes because I have a phobia.

815
00:59:42.119 --> 00:59:43.440
Well, we never actually see the plane destroyed.

816
00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:44.699
No, but they all get out of it alone.

817
00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:49.800
I'm sorry, everybody gets sucked out. you know, but it just it just triggers me.

818
00:59:49.860 --> 00:59:51.360
Oh, it does explode.

819
00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:52.440
I do mean...

820
00:59:52.500 --> 00:59:56.039
And then he explodes bell, then the master has them explode Belgium as well.

821
00:59:56.099 --> 00:59:57.960
Because they're not even French.

822
00:59:58.019 --> 00:59:59.880
Did you see that thing?

823
00:59:59.940 --> 01:00:01.380
Did you see that thing?

824
01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:05.940
In Korea, Korean Airlines, someone passenger as it was coming into land, open the door.

825
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:06.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

826
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:07.260
What happened?

827
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:09.960
Everyone survived because it was close because they were relatively close to the ground.

828
01:00:10.019 --> 01:00:10.800
It was just a bit brief.

829
01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:11.400
Did he survive?

830
01:00:11.460 --> 01:00:13.619
I think so. yes Yeah, he was restrained.

831
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:13.980
Yeah, yeah.

832
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:15.960
So he must have opened the door, but then stood back.

833
01:00:16.019 --> 01:00:21.900
Because there was no, because usually it's not that because when it happens at altitude, of course, has the air pressure differential. that's when you do get sucked out.

834
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:26.519
But wouldn't you if you were moving really fast within the air pressure outside below?

835
01:00:26.579 --> 01:00:28.199
I don't know anything about physics.

836
01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:35.219
No, no, no, but if you're moving, like, like, if you're moving, if you're low enough, it's the, you get sucked out.

837
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:36.119
If you're low enough.

838
01:00:36.179 --> 01:00:36.659
It doesn't matter.

839
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:39.000
That's why like when people are doing skydiving, they open the plane.

840
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:39.599
Oh yes, of course.

841
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:40.980
They're not all...

842
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:41.760
They don't just get sucked.

843
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:43.260
They have to make them. choice.

844
01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:43.920
Yes, exactly.

845
01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:55.619
But I do feel sorry for Osgood because, like, she's killed off in a plane in this episode and then in the Zigon 2 part, she and Capaldi have to parachute out of a plane that's blown up.

846
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:57.659
But that's a different Osgood.

847
01:00:57.719 --> 01:00:58.739
So she didn't experience that.

848
01:00:58.800 --> 01:00:59.340
All right.

849
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.460
Just before you do, I've got one more thing to say.

850
01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:05.460
I was in the cockpit when the captain got sucked out.

851
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:07.619
Oh my god.

852
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:08.940
Fast forward.

853
01:01:09.900 --> 01:01:11.820
The Air Stewarts.