WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:05:01

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast now only available on audio just as a

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way to hide our faces.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm a graveyard full of castoffs horsemans with

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something the Briggs proud of in there.

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Well, last week, Stephen Moffat was doing his best to try and make

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death scary.

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This week, he's going to have much more success with Clara, the

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doctor, and their wacky new neighbour, Missy.

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Let's see what happens when 1000000000s of newly angry cybermen

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join them in death in heaven.

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So the doctors are lady now, apparently.

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Oh.

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Hmm, it's a thing.

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What?

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So, Clara, we get the opening credit scene.

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Yeah, we don't have a reprise.

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She just announces she's the doctor and then we go into the titles

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with her attack eyebrows.

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Does she just announce it?

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Does she actually, is it Clara versus a cyberman?

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Yeah, she says, you know, I'm really important to you.

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I'm the doctor or something Yeah, yeah.

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Didn't she do a frock rehearsal on the Orient Express?

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Wasn't she saying, no, forgive me. she saying I'm the doctor on to

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that lot as well?

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No, I think she's a bit pushy.

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So she does get to play the doctor in Flatline rather than Orin

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Express because the doctor's in the TARDIS.

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Professional podcaster here.

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Oh really?

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I just strolled my eyes.

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Honestly, I just sit there going, oh, please.

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And now we've put her eyes in the credits and she's before, you

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know, Peter, and this is all going to, like, be resolved in about

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2 minutes.

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It's a set piece.

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It is.

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Like, I think a set piece is kind of okay though.

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I'm not saying that it's not.

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I like this episode.

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I'm going to put my cards on the table here.

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I think it's 8 out of 10.

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Yes, listeners, I'm going to all my tropes.

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But there are certain things that I do not like as much in this

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episode of other moments, and that I find is a set piece which, you

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know, is done for an effect, and I just kind of sit there going

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thanks, but let's move on.

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The thing is, I would argue that it's not debunked until cyber

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Danny comes and gets her.

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Because I was watching.

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I remember watching that at the time and going, oh, well, they

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could.

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How do you mean?

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She could be.

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She could have a little locket with like Chancellor Flavia's ashes

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in it. the flyer.

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I, like, I don't think I ever thought it was really going to

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happen, but it was credible to me that it could have been.

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Todd is giving me the narrowest vision.

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Todd and I are narrowing our eyes visibly at you, Brandon, for the

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listener at home.

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I'm not very clever.

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Fair enough, but I just don't get it because it seems so obvious.

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I just don't I just don't buy it.

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Yeah, I didn't buy it.

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To the point that I didn't actually notice it.

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So I think that we've already had a lady master revealed.

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How do we feel about that?

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Oh, no, we will talk about that.

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We already had a ladymaster last episode and so the lady doctor is

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kind of like the next obvious step, but I think it is perhaps just

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there so that it can be in the next time on Doctor Who trailer

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which, you know, putting interesting things in the next time the

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Doctor Who trailer is not something that every showrunner has done

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and I think it's probably not a bad idea.

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Yeah, and I think, and I have to go from memory here because the

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next time trailers are not on the Blu-ray.

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I think the line from that that makes it in there is Clara Oswald

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never existed, which is a great line to put in that trailer.

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And the thing is, for a bluff to stop yourself being murdered by

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cybermen, it makes sense.

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That's very interesting.

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Both of you, because I have to say, I had the Z to minor Todd

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experience for this.

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I had the anti-matter black sludge.

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I really didn't think it was as good as I first saw it.

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It was a lot of tricks and tropes, and a lot of really underused

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cast members, and the Danny Pink, are we up to that yet?

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I might keep my power dry for that one.

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But this is just a whole bag of very glossy and very impressive.

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Yes, it's a gorgeous way to appease, or to please, I should say

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transatlantic viewers and all the rest of it.

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I just felt there was a lot of very late.

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I don't want to say lazy, but Mr. Moffatt's very quick solutions

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when he's got 2 other things to get out this week.

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Yeah, I am the other Todd for this episode.

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Yes.

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Look, I think that it is less successful than last week, and I

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think there's probably less there than initially meets the eye, and

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I have to say that I'm not super on board with the resolution of

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the soldier thing that we've been doing all season.

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Are we up to that yet?

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Well, yeah, it will come towards the end.

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But there's a lot of fun to be had still, I think, and most of

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that is with Michelle Gomez.

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It's all with Michelle.

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And in fact, I would actually say the heart and soul of this

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episode and the life of this episode does sit squarely on her firm

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Hebridesian shoulder pads.

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And really is that the right way to finish a seasoned relying on

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the one villain, but I look at the demons.

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Oh, look at any of the other fantastic classic master series and

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they were the some of their parts.

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Whereas this one.

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Well, let's not go into the parts in the bins and the parts in the

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tin cans.

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But, well, maybe we should.

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It didn't feel right.

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I did like the darkness of the end.

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I did like there was no day or sex machina at the end at all, but

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I also felt...

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Again, how quickly did you write this?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, look, he's clearly having an enormous amount of fun with

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Missy and Missy's hugely successful, and we said last week that

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she gets a good, solid, proper murder in each episode, and here

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she gets two, and the murder of Osgood is spectacular.

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Yeah.

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Um, yeah.

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It's spectacular.

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I guess it is spectacular.

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Like, it's something that I didn't think they would go with

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because you've got Osgood and Kate Stewart there at the beginning

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of the episode taking control of the situation, getting everybody

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onto the plane as a set piece.

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Wiki dialogue and then, obviously, the doctor's taken upstairs to

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be president of everything, more on that in a second.

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But having her talk to Osgood, I always felt that Osgood was sort

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of set up much like a Sergeant Benton type character that you love

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and nothing bad is going to happen.

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So as that scene sort of unfolds and also too, the dialogue with

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the doctor before that, with him, with Osgood sort of inviting her

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on board.

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You just know things are not going to Linda with a Y moment, is

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that?

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Yes, exactly, Nathan.

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And so when that actually happens, like it's just like gut

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wrenching and I don't think he necessarily ever expected to write

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a Zygon 2 parter next season to bring back the character.

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So I actually think the fan reaction to her death, which I think

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was actually quite considerable.

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Like, then sent his mind ticking, you know, how do we bring this

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character back because she is so good.

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But the fact that Missy is the queen of evil, as she says herself

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and is completely nuts.

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Bananas, completely bananas, you know, comment from the

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galleries.

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It makes that sequence, you realise like, you know, she's taking

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no prisoners and it's not this thing of the classic series where

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we're too scared to kill anybody.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think Moffatt said that the trouble with the master is

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that they risk being cuddly because they're entertaining and so

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they have to be murderous.

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It's funny you should mention that about the Zygon 2 part because

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he kills off Osgood because he did already have the Zygon story in

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mind.

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And in that story, he wanted the audience to doubt whether it's

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Human Osgood or whether it's Zion Osgood or whether it matters.

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And he was like in order to do that, I need to kill one of them.

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Right.

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And then he worked backwards from there.

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That's cool, yeah.

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Ingrid Oliver and Samuel Anderson, by the way, did not know their

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characters were going to be killed off before they turned up the

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read-through.

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And Moffatt, it was interviewed at the read through.

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I think the Doctor Who X-ray.

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He says to the interviewer, there's Ingrid and Sam.

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I've just killed them, so I better go say hello.

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Um, But Capaldi and Rachel, Tallalei knew that Osgood was coming

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back next season, but weren't allowed to tell Ingrid Oliver.

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So, but you know, Ingrid and Sam, we're both like, we know our

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contracts are up.

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So and it's like, oh, what a shame, et cetera, et cetera.

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I really love that entrance from Kate and Osgood.

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And I know there are members of the paddle who are here and who

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are not here who are not fond of Gemma Redgrave's performance, but

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I think she is having so much fun in that 1st scene with the

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cyberhead.

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Hi, Kate Stewart, divorcee, mother of two, King Gardner.

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She drops the cyberhead from the invasion or something just to

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make the point.

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And in Moffatt script.

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It is a more modern cyberhead, but he's like, he describes the

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damage to it so people don't think it's handles and during the

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production designs of phase.

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They're just like, well what's this a reference to?

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And he's like, oh, it's a reference to the invasion like coming

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down.

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We can make one of those, Stephen.

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Van Staten had one in the in the museum.

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That actually raises a good point if I'm going to keep the

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graveyard metaphors going.

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I've got a question for everyone, bit on the higher meta level.

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What is the point of this plot?

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Messi is raising an army of corpses to be cyberfitted out, probably

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the most brilliant concept the master's ever had, the most complex

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as a present for a Scotch egg boyfriend?

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Yeah, it doesn't...

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That doesn't work.

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And I think the people who say that Doctor Who should rein it in

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and be less weird and less over the top and less dramatic, they're

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almost always wrong.

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But here she's raising everyone who's ever lived.

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They've all been stored in her cyber drive, you know, the, in the

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nether sphere, and their bodies are being converted or whatever is

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left of their bodies is being converted into cyberman, and there's

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going to be 1000s of them, and she sort of talks as if she's

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taking over the planet, but then she's kind of raising an army for

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the doctor to make some point.

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So for the master to be the master, there's got to be a meta above

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that.

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There has to be a plan within a plan.

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There always was, even if it's just a pathetic box with chameleon

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behind the console.

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But I'm not getting where this was going to go as a plot device.

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Is she just saying you and I are alike.

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Yes, I think so, but yeah.

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But I think also the other thing, and it is lost in the denouement

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and I think a line of dialogue would have fixed it, is at this

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stage, she has only converted the dead into cybermen.

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The next round of rain will also kill the living.

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So she's kind of going, if you accept this army, no one else has

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to die because these people are already dead and they can be

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useful for you in liberating the Dalek slave camps.

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She's like, I'm giving you this army of people who are already

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dead so that you can enact peace on the universe.

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Which...

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Okay, that is clever.

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Yeah.

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You kind of go, the doctor will never go for that.

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Oh, except maybe the doctor who just tells people that

248
00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:45.659
everything's going to be fine, even though they're about to die

249
00:12:45.659 --> 00:12:48.120
inside it are like, that doctor might.

250
00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:51.600
And so I think it's effective in that way, but there's that line

251
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:52.679
of dialogue missing.

252
00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:55.500
And I think also there's a line of dialogue that's missing in

253
00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:55.860
that.

254
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:59.879
In Moffatt's conception, don't cremate me was always fake.

255
00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:02.220
Yes, but it doesn't come across.

256
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:06.539
Yeah, because he doesn't want people to cremate themselves.

257
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:10.320
He wants to get those bodies in the 3W Institute so that he can

258
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:11.279
experiment on them.

259
00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:14.759
And there is something about Moffat's conception of the Cyberman

260
00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:17.700
which is different from Russell's and different from Kit Pedlers

261
00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:19.860
which is they are corpses in armour.

262
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:20.519
Yes.

263
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:20.940
Yeah.

264
00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.879
And that's very clear from the Pandorica Opens.

265
00:13:23.940 --> 00:13:26.820
Remember when the face of the sidemen opens and there's a skull

266
00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:27.840
inside and stuff like that.

267
00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:33.059
So his isn't, you know, the brain and the shredded nervous system

268
00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:35.039
inside a casing.

269
00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:37.019
It's just a dead body in a casing.

270
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:39.659
And so his cybermen were always that.

271
00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:45.059
And so it makes sense and it's a massive scale thing, but it

272
00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:48.539
doesn't seem to be, look, the master's planes are never really

273
00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:49.860
anything. are they?

274
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.940
Because when you think about what John Sims master does at the end

275
00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:54.899
of series three.

276
00:13:54.960 --> 00:14:00.480
He's taking over the world, why, you know, www.launch the

277
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:00.899
missiles.

278
00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:01.919
Yeah, yeah.

279
00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:04.860
It all seems to be sort of rather pointless in the end and maybe

280
00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:05.879
that's the point of the master.

281
00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:13.919
In the same way that the doctor is a flaneur and at about for no

282
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.000
other purpose than his own greed, for knowledge, self-advancements

283
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.620
perhaps, yes, there is the mirror of that.

284
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:21.480
That's what he says.

285
00:14:21.539 --> 00:14:24.120
I mean, this is our conclusion is what is the doctor?

286
00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:25.200
Is he a good man or not?

287
00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:27.539
And his conclusion is, I'm not a good man.

288
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:28.379
I'm not a bad man.

289
00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.320
I'm just an idiot with a box who wanders around seeing things.

290
00:14:31.379 --> 00:14:34.980
He's a scholar with tech, and we know that unbound they do things

291
00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:36.360
like the Manhattan Project.

292
00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:37.980
So...

293
00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:41.580
The doctor has always been a cypher for Doctor Who has always been

294
00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:44.759
a cypher for what is going on in the here and now, culturally

295
00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:47.100
politically and indeed scientifically.

296
00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:50.340
So perhaps there are comments that Mr. Moffat was making on those

297
00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:54.360
grounds, but I think it's really just don't trust Scotch bints.

298
00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:57.600
Yes.

299
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.919
The other thing is that we get the soldier thing.

300
00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:07.679
Okay, so the doctor again is very rude about soldiers.

301
00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:12.299
He calls General Ahmed Manscout all the way through.

302
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:17.100
He is dismissive, but then there's the brigadier as the kind of

303
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:18.120
big exception.

304
00:15:18.179 --> 00:15:22.980
And I'm not sure what's happening with the soldier thing, but it

305
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:27.899
seems to me that the doctor makes a speech about Danny at the end

306
00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:32.519
of the episode, how love isn't a feeling or an emotion.

307
00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:37.740
It's a promise, and that Danny, like his fellow soldiers, has

308
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:41.460
promised that we can all sleep safely, that we will be safe.

309
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.240
And that seems to be where that plot's leading.

310
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:47.940
The doctor discovers that he's been wrong about soldiers all

311
00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:48.480
along.

312
00:15:48.539 --> 00:15:52.440
And so he ends by saluting the brigadier and ends by showing some

313
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.379
respect or some regard for Danny.

314
00:15:55.500 --> 00:16:00.179
And I think it's also a degree of self-forgiveness because Danny

315
00:16:00.179 --> 00:16:04.139
identifies the doctor as an officer in this, again, when we have

316
00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:09.179
Danny's flashback, after he realises what he's done, the dialogue

317
00:16:09.179 --> 00:16:12.480
we hear is his commanding officer, barking at him, is their place

318
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:13.019
secure?

319
00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:20.340
Danny report, like, you know, and it's underlining that the doctor

320
00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:24.240
as an officer is asking Danny to do something that he's not

321
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:25.139
willing to do himself.

322
00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:29.460
I mentioned last week how this story deals with themes of

323
00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:30.059
forgiveness.

324
00:16:30.059 --> 00:16:34.620
And I think the doctor, because we've just had the time war in Day

325
00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:35.039
of the Doctor.

326
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:35.820
Yeah.

327
00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:39.179
I think the doctor is still forgiving himself for his part in that

328
00:16:39.179 --> 00:16:42.299
and that's been a part of this incarnation.

329
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:47.759
And that's part of his animosity towards Danny is that he actually

330
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:49.500
recognises something of himself.

331
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:52.799
And it's something that has led him to question whether he's a

332
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:53.100
good man.

333
00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:57.000
And when does he 1st ask that question when he's just gotten

334
00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:59.399
involved with the soldier who's fighting Daleks, Journey Blue.

335
00:16:59.460 --> 00:16:59.879
Yeah.

336
00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:00.419
You know?

337
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.619
But it's another thing of Doctor Who handling a very, very serious

338
00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:08.279
issue, so it has to paint it in very, very broad strokes, like the

339
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:10.319
motivation of a soldier is to keep everyone safe.

340
00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:13.920
Yeah, you know, which is Dan Dan the soldier man in.

341
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:15.119
Yes, exactly.

342
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:17.160
So that comes full circle.

343
00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:20.160
Simon earlier this season was a little bit worried about the way

344
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.279
soldiers were being presented and kind of hostile to the idea that

345
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:25.980
they might be presented in a bad light.

346
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:28.380
I'm the opposite, I think.

347
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:33.059
I think this is a period in time where, you know, both England and

348
00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:36.240
Australia and America as well, I guess, but they were always a bit

349
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:41.279
there, is trying to big up the role of soldier and make it

350
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:42.839
something that we respect.

351
00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:46.019
It's, you know, a period in time where we start using the

352
00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:50.279
Australian term diggers to describe people not who were soldiers

353
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:52.440
historically, but who are soldiers now.

354
00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:55.980
And, you know, we send soldiers to Afghanistan.

355
00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.279
And in the week of recording, we've discovered some of the

356
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:04.319
terrible, terrible things that led to, and it was never really

357
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.259
about keeping us safe in our beds.

358
00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:08.400
That's not what that's about.

359
00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:15.599
And so I think that this kind of fails in some way. that what

360
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:19.440
Moffatt's trying to say about soldiers just never coheres around

361
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:22.200
any particular idea.

362
00:18:22.259 --> 00:18:26.279
There's just a thing that comes up and then we drop next year and

363
00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:27.539
I don't know what it was for.

364
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:35.220
Obviously, listening to your discussions on FTA throughout the

365
00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:40.920
year and certainly back in the caretaker and how I think it's, I

366
00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:42.960
do think it's poorly handled.

367
00:18:44.339 --> 00:18:49.380
And here I think, like when the doctor arrives towards the end and

368
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:52.019
Danny's there and he says PE very quietly.

369
00:18:52.019 --> 00:18:56.220
And then they have their conversation that they have, which I

370
00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:59.339
think is extraordinary active by both of them, and the doctor has

371
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:01.619
to face up to how he is.

372
00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:05.460
Like Danny has pulled him up on him being the officer and that

373
00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:05.940
sort of thing.

374
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:11.039
And then you get the whole saluting of the cyber brig, which is

375
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:15.299
set up quite early on through dialogue where Kate says that to the

376
00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:17.640
doctor that the brigadier only wanted to be saluted once.

377
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:22.140
And then even at the end where he says, we'll make a maths teacher

378
00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:23.579
out of PE yet.

379
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.400
Like, the brigadier became a math teacher.

380
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:32.160
Yeah, you know, and he's given it Danny away back from death.

381
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:36.180
And is that his way of apologising and seeing the good in Danny

382
00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:41.700
and coming to terms with his own feelings about soldiers and that

383
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:42.180
sort of thing?

384
00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:46.019
I think there's actually a lot in here that points to the doctors

385
00:19:46.019 --> 00:19:50.460
I don't want to say redemption, but certainly coming realisation

386
00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:53.819
that he has been on the wrong track with his attitude towards

387
00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:55.440
soldiers and to Danny.

388
00:19:55.500 --> 00:20:00.119
So yes, it's not fully successful, but I think within the episode

389
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.359
itself, I saw this for the 1st time.

390
00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:07.259
Like I did not like this negative soldier thing the 1st time

391
00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:11.519
through, but I actually saw an arc in this season and I actually

392
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:16.680
saw resolutions here and I had the Todd experience with

393
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.880
referencing myself.

394
00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:22.140
You're a me.

395
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:23.759
Thank you.

396
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:25.140
I'm not repeating.

397
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:30.359
I had the experience of I detested. the cyberbrick thing. detested

398
00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:30.599
it.

399
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.619
It brought a tear to my eye in this episode because I bought into

400
00:20:34.619 --> 00:20:34.980
it.

401
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:36.539
I saw the picture of him.

402
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:40.019
Who else is going to save his daughter when she gets sucked out of

403
00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:43.619
that plane in that just awful moment where I just sat there going

404
00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:45.000
0 my god, I can't believe they've done that.

405
00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:45.480
Yeah.

406
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:52.079
And knowing that Nicholas Courtney never really got any other, well

407
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:54.299
he was in the Sarah Jane Adventures for an episode, but the

408
00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:57.720
brigadier was never brought back or with his passing, perhaps an

409
00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.720
acknowledged the way you wanted it to, I actually really bought

410
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.559
into it this time.

411
00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:02.759
And it's there.

412
00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:04.500
Like it's never going to change.

413
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:07.799
So you either fight against it, like I fought against Delta and

414
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.279
the Bannerman for all these years or you all through time.

415
00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:12.839
Or you lean into it.

416
00:21:12.900 --> 00:21:15.480
And you find the good in it.

417
00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.160
And that's what I think I found.

418
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:19.559
I don't know whether I've answered your question.

419
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:23.519
I think you're definitely right identifying that this is a source

420
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.940
of redemption for the doctor, the current doctor, and it's that

421
00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:27.180
thing.

422
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.480
I posted it to the thread last night because I was so struck by

423
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.640
how well written that exchange was.

424
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:40.019
But it's like there's an exchange where the doctor is not going to

425
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:43.259
activate Danny's inhibitor because he says pain is a gift.

426
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:47.940
This is an important thing, without it, we can't feel the hurt

427
00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:49.500
that we inflict.

428
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.519
And Danny says, are you telling me seriously that you can do that

429
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.900
because he's been playing it, as if he doesn't care about the

430
00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:59.579
consequences of what he does to people.

431
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.279
And he says, yes, of course I know that.

432
00:22:02.339 --> 00:22:04.259
Of course I know what I'm doing to people.

433
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:06.420
And Danny says, well, shame on you.

434
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:07.559
Like, that's worse.

435
00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:10.859
If you didn't know how you were coming across, if you didn't know

436
00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:14.220
what you were doing to people's lives, that would be bad, but the

437
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:18.119
fact that you do know, and that you feel the pain that you inflict

438
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.519
and you do it anyway, is a problem.

439
00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:24.299
Just his acknowledgement that he does know that this isn't just

440
00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:25.380
him being clueless.

441
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:26.880
He knows what he's doing.

442
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:29.279
I think it's extraordinary.

443
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.279
Didn't know what you just said?

444
00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:33.000
Yeah, yeah.

445
00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.440
I've just come to that conclusion.

446
00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:35.160
Yeah.

447
00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:40.200
It's also interesting with the promise of the soldier, as Danny

448
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:44.160
puts it, because we know that the impetus for Danny becoming a

449
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.700
soldier is Dan the soldier man little figure who doesn't have a

450
00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:49.140
weapon and goes out and helps people.

451
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.799
And when Danny's trying to tell Clara, also in listen, that he did

452
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:54.119
important work as a soldier.

453
00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:55.500
Well, he's talking about the welding.

454
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:59.640
So it's like he became a soldier to help people and he killed an

455
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:00.420
innocent child.

456
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:07.140
And now he can actually live to that promise of a soldier by

457
00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:09.480
making sure people sleep safe in their beds.

458
00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:15.059
So I think Moffat isn't necessarily talking about the evil that

459
00:23:15.059 --> 00:23:21.660
can happen in war from soldiers of, quote unquote, outside.

460
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:27.599
But he's talking about perhaps soldiers didn't become soldiers

461
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:28.500
because they wanted to kill.

462
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:29.460
They wanted to help.

463
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.960
And I think possibly it's inconclusive because he's kind of going

464
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.980
possibly not his place and not Doctor Who's place to say it's good

465
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:38.640
or it's bad.

466
00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:42.059
Yeah, but it's to say this is a reality that people are facing.

467
00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:46.859
And I think there is something very, very powerful in that.

468
00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:49.920
And I think we're left feeling uncomfortable and perhaps we ought

469
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:50.339
to be.

470
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:54.180
And, you know, Richard, you mentioned the transatlantic response.

471
00:23:54.180 --> 00:23:59.460
And of course, the discussion about veterans and support for them

472
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:03.599
when they, when they come back from war is a big topic in America

473
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.319
it's become a bigger topic in Australia in the last 20 years as

474
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:07.740
well.

475
00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:12.059
And yeah, I think I think possibly if we had come to some sort of

476
00:24:12.059 --> 00:24:15.240
conclusion on that point in this episode, it would have been

477
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:16.079
weaker for it, I think.

478
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:20.279
I think that I have a problem, which is that I do want things to

479
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:24.599
be pat, like, and I think that there is a place for just exploring

480
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:28.200
a set of ideas and not necessarily coming to a conclusion.

481
00:24:28.259 --> 00:24:32.640
I think maybe Doctor Who should err on the side of taking a

482
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.880
position, but sometimes it doesn't, and I guess that's fine.

483
00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:40.980
We're dealing with concepts that the original series only ever

484
00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:43.859
brushed against by happenstance coincidence.

485
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:48.539
And, you know, and in fact, didn't even acknowledge, and then by

486
00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:51.059
the 80s, although Andrew Cartmel.

487
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:51.720
Yeah.

488
00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:55.079
I mean, I guess the big thing is the end of Silurians, isn't it?

489
00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:58.500
where the brigadier does a very... he does a very bad thing.

490
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:01.559
And the doctor acknowledges that, but the show needs to go on.

491
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:03.420
Yeah, other critics have said too.

492
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.579
I mean, this is really, was it Xander, who said this should have

493
00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:08.579
been the end of the doctor should have just retired to a cottage

494
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.339
and made muffins with Delia Smith or something.

495
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:12.839
Grown begonias.

496
00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:15.779
Yeah, well. actually joined the British rocket group.

497
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:17.220
That could have been interesting.

498
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.000
The funny thing is, I'm also thinking of the censorites and, you

499
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.220
know, yes, the human soldiers in that.

500
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:26.400
And Planet of the Daleks of all things.

501
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:31.319
And it's discussion of war and morality and courage and...

502
00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:34.200
I mean, I don't have any conclusion to draw on that, but it's just

503
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.079
it's just interesting when Doctor Who brings up those points, like

504
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:38.400
bringing them up in the sensor, right?

505
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:41.339
The conclusion we have to make, and the censorites did it, and so

506
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:46.980
did Solurians, is these events are too large for moralising or for

507
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:53.220
capitulating against, or indeed, for a finale for, for a dio 6

508
00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:53.940
Macuna end.

509
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:55.259
These are what they are.

510
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:58.259
These things happen and what is our response to this.

511
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:03.000
I think, but what makes this episode, maybe I'm having an N

512
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.079
Universe Todd experience again now because it feels to me that, yes

513
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.160
it's actually that moment and you highlighted it between Danny

514
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:15.599
Tinfoil, Danny and the doctor, where there is this exchange for

515
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:16.440
what can you do about it?

516
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.319
You just do your best in the moment. yes, you carry this.

517
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:21.599
Yes, you carry this.

518
00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:24.720
What did the master do that was actually all that awful?

519
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:26.400
Well, yeah.

520
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:31.680
Well, yes, but, you know, and sort of tormented people in the

521
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:32.279
afterlife.

522
00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:34.859
Like, I think the afterlife is hell.

523
00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:36.180
Well, but I've got a whole list myself.

524
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:41.460
I'm actually more upset that Sanjeev Bucks and Chris Addison

525
00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:45.839
didn't get more work because I love Chris Addison's civilisation

526
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.799
BBC Radio 4 series, if you've ever heard it with Jeffrey Watts

527
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.039
face from the Douglas Adams radio series.

528
00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:56.099
It's one of the funniest things on radio you'll ever hear.

529
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:58.079
Addison is superb and he's perfect with them.

530
00:26:58.140 --> 00:26:58.619
He just gone.

531
00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:03.240
And Sanji, he's such a damn fan. came to the point of it's Captain

532
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:04.079
Scarlett.

533
00:27:04.140 --> 00:27:05.700
That is so funny.

534
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.819
Oh my god, I love that exchange. all the way.

535
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:09.599
Yes, yeah, yeah.

536
00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:10.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

537
00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:13.859
And the doctor does the foxtrot with Sylvia Anderson.

538
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:17.819
And as you know, I got to meet Sylvia and I have a massive place

539
00:27:17.819 --> 00:27:20.880
in my heart for Sylvia and all the things that were unfortunately

540
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.059
you know, went against her in life and career and I love that

541
00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:26.819
woman so much and I was just a little moment again for us.

542
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.180
And again, Mr Moffatt does perfect little moments for all of us.

543
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:31.619
And I'm not dissing it.

544
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.619
I mean the whole Air Force one stuff was Bruce Willis level

545
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:35.940
entertainment.

546
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:39.180
Maybe it's just that from Doctor Who and thinking back to the

547
00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:41.460
stories we've spoken of from the classic series.

548
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.940
We expect a moral conclusion.

549
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:45.720
Yeah.

550
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:47.400
And that's what we're not really given.

551
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:47.940
No.

552
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:02.519
So we get to see a fair amount of of Michelle, this episode, and

553
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:06.779
we did last episode too, and I just think we said last week that

554
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.859
it's her and Delgado vying for top role.

555
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.339
I think she very clearly is better than Delgado.

556
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:16.440
She's better served.

557
00:28:16.500 --> 00:28:17.819
Yeah, yeah.

558
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:18.539
I think that's fair.

559
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:20.880
And because television's different and all of that.

560
00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:23.160
I think Delgado would have got away with most of that.

561
00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.119
No.

562
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:25.740
Well, Delgado gets...

563
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:33.660
But what he doesn't get to do is that murder, that fantastic thing

564
00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:41.160
where you know that once Missy tells Osgood, that she's going to

565
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.339
kill her in a minute, that that's going to happen.

566
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:47.400
Like there's no way that that's not going to happen.

567
00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:53.700
And Moffatt, who is an awful, dreadful person. says, like, it

568
00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:56.099
makes her say all of these things.

569
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:00.779
It's so, and like, when the doctor sort of says something about

570
00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:03.119
Osgood comes in and sort of knows as it's happened.

571
00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:05.099
Like, I think he finds the glasses, doesn't he?

572
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:08.519
And she says, well, like, don't be so selfish.

573
00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:10.440
I have to, you know, I'll miss her too.

574
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:11.700
You know.

575
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.900
And then she wants to go off in search of other friends of his to

576
00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:16.859
kind of play with.

577
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:18.240
It's great.

578
00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:21.900
And what makes that even worse is in the original draft.

579
00:29:22.259 --> 00:29:27.960
That scene with Missy threatening her was intercut with the doctor

580
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.619
and Kate because the doctor has just said all the time in space?

581
00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:38.819
to Osgood. and what Rachel Talale thought was that Jenna's

582
00:29:38.819 --> 00:29:42.180
contract was up and Stephen Moffatt was sending her the 2nd

583
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:45.660
episode scene by scene to build up suspense.

584
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:47.759
And Rachel thought, oh, God, Ingrid.

585
00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:49.079
It's going to be Ingrid next year.

586
00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:49.740
Ingrid.

587
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:51.720
I love Ingrid and then...

588
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:52.200
Bang.

589
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.619
Because meanwhile, up in the meeting room on the plane, the doctor

590
00:29:55.619 --> 00:29:58.200
basically comes in and says to Kate, I've just offered your

591
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:02.039
scientific advisor a job and Kate says, she's very valuable and

592
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:03.000
very well paid.

593
00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:04.019
So good luck with that.

594
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:09.119
And so they both have a few lines of how much they love Osgood.

595
00:30:09.180 --> 00:30:11.940
And then you cut back to her being disintegrated.

596
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.140
Yeah, it's so good.

597
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:17.279
It's just so terrific and it is absolutely something Delgado would

598
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:18.960
never have got the opportunity to do.

599
00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:24.720
And Moffatt is super conscious that he has to make Missy evil, that

600
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.799
the risk is that the master is so much fun that we think.

601
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:31.140
I sure would have insisted upon that on...

602
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:31.559
That's right.

603
00:30:31.619 --> 00:30:32.700
A few deaths every episode.

604
00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:35.099
But Nathan, I totally agree with you.

605
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:39.480
And I think the fact that that all builds, and you get the whole

606
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.400
reveals about the woman in the shop.

607
00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:44.880
Yeah, and the advert in deep breath.

608
00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:45.660
Yeah.

609
00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:49.740
And Michelle and Peter are just so extraordinary in that moment

610
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:53.759
because doesn't Clara call him on the phone?

611
00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:54.420
Yes.

612
00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:58.980
That's, and then having Kate just sucked out of a thing.

613
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.640
Like that whole sequence for that character of Missy is just

614
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:03.839
amazing.

615
00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:08.940
She just, and she's totally, like, she's laughing and, you know, oh

616
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:12.359
just having the time of her life, like, because every, the pain

617
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:15.299
has just, like, been ripped apart around her and everything.

618
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:16.799
I'm sped away.

619
00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:20.099
Like she holds these episodes together and brings something that

620
00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:22.799
we never had before from this character.

621
00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:26.160
I was a little bit disappointed with a master turning up at the

622
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:27.599
end of SpyFall part one.

623
00:31:27.660 --> 00:31:29.519
And I thought it was too soon.

624
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.400
And I thought there wasn't enough of a buildup.

625
00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:35.700
Also a complete negation of character arc.

626
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:38.880
Well, we get there and I think that's terrible or boring at

627
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:39.119
least.

628
00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:41.220
Well, yeah.

629
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:46.859
But I think that Moffat was completely unable to prevent himself

630
00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:52.500
from playing with that particular action figure. you know, and

631
00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:55.140
that's why she's just back at the beginning of next year.

632
00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.539
But also, you know, he did wait, three full series. before

633
00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:01.440
bringing back the character.

634
00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:02.400
Oh, yeah, yeah.

635
00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:05.460
But then he has her back in the very next story after the

636
00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:08.339
Christmas special because he just can't leave her alone because

637
00:32:08.339 --> 00:32:09.960
she's so magnificently great.

638
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:11.640
It's a proper pertly year thing to do.

639
00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:12.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

640
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:13.079
That's true.

641
00:32:13.140 --> 00:32:14.640
But can he get it for other things?

642
00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:17.099
Like is she suddenly going off to do Sabrina or something like

643
00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:17.279
that?

644
00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:18.359
I don't know.

645
00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:22.079
Because it's funny how she's in these 2 episodes and the 1st

646
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:26.160
episodes of next season and then we wait quite some time before

647
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:26.700
she's back.

648
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:30.539
And of course, we have that year off for Peter to have a surgery.

649
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:36.000
I mean, what that does mean is we're Matt Smith is robbed of

650
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.960
having a master.

651
00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:39.660
And I remember at the time there were all these rumours that they

652
00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:42.779
were going to cast an older character actor with Charles Dance

653
00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:45.359
being heavily in the rumour mill.

654
00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:47.880
I don't know if there was ever any basis of that, but of course he

655
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.319
was quite big in Game of Thrones at the time.

656
00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:49.920
Yeah.

657
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:54.119
But again, here with Michelle Gomez, you have the thing of casting

658
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:56.220
opposite your doctor.

659
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:59.579
What's interesting about that is the character description

660
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:03.240
originally has her as a young woman in her 20s.

661
00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:04.019
Oh, really?

662
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:08.039
And Michelle Gomez was offered the part of Miss Delfox.

663
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.960
In Time Heist.

664
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:10.680
Okay.

665
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:11.819
And was unavailable.

666
00:33:11.940 --> 00:33:13.380
Great.

667
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.400
And pretty much she thought, oh, God, you know, I've had to turn

668
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:18.180
down Doctor Who.

669
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.680
What if they don't ask me to do anything again?

670
00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:21.900
So she emailed Stephen and she said, look, I'm really sorry.

671
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:22.680
It was a great part.

672
00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:26.519
I'm just already booked for this thing, but if you ever need a

673
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:28.859
razor cheekboned villainess for anything.

674
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:33.000
And Moffatt went, Missy doesn't have to be in her 20s.

675
00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.640
Well, he went, she's got that smile.

676
00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:38.400
There's that smile and there's a tiny snaggle teeth, like one

677
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:39.900
teeth has a little point on it.

678
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.539
I just think like her whole look is perfect and she's so like she

679
00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:46.799
is just so tremendous.

680
00:33:46.859 --> 00:33:51.119
Like, I think that she manages to be the opposite of Capoldi in a

681
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:52.259
sort of fantastic way.

682
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:58.859
So David Tennant has John Sim, who is his rival star of a science

683
00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:01.680
fiction TV show, which is on at the time.

684
00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:06.240
And they're both really gobby and they're both sort of really fun

685
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.119
and funny and fast and everything's very verbal.

686
00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:11.639
And so they are very similar in many ways.

687
00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:15.000
Whereas, of course, Missy is the doctor's opposite.

688
00:34:15.059 --> 00:34:17.639
Like a perfectly crafted opposite.

689
00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:19.619
She's mercurial.

690
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:24.780
She's, she's, um, bananas as she keeps.

691
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:28.380
And she's much more fun than him, and that's always the risk, isn't

692
00:34:28.380 --> 00:34:28.559
it?

693
00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:31.800
She's perfect, just absolutely perfect, I think.

694
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:35.760
And I think the visual 2 of her coming in is Mary Poppins. for

695
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.840
that last segment.

696
00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:39.059
There's also just icing on the cake.

697
00:34:39.179 --> 00:34:39.840
It's just delicious.

698
00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:42.000
So it's very confusing what happens to her.

699
00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:43.619
She's shot dead by the cyberman.

700
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:48.119
So the Cyberman makes the doctor not have to make the decision to

701
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:50.159
save Clara from making the thing.

702
00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:53.280
Although spoiler alert, it's going to turn out to be an emergency

703
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.019
temporal shift or whatever.

704
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:55.679
Always.

705
00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:58.260
You don't bring a character back just to kill them offline.

706
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.179
No, no, that's true. don't resent that at all.

707
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:03.539
I don't think you have to kill the master off each time he or she

708
00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:06.960
appears so that they can just have mysteriously got out of it next

709
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:07.139
time.

710
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:09.239
That started in the 80s.

711
00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:09.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

712
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:12.000
It's absolutely Ainley, isn't it?

713
00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:12.539
Yes.

714
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:14.760
There's the title.

715
00:35:14.820 --> 00:35:16.860
Absolutely.

716
00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:21.360
And you have to keep them coming back, so it's absolutely anly

717
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:21.960
returned.

718
00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:37.440
I think this episode actually deals deftly with having a really

719
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:41.940
very downbeat ending and a kind of depressing end to the season.

720
00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:45.420
Yeah, it doesn't really give you a pop, does it?

721
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:48.780
No, like, I mean, Danny is dead?

722
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:49.440
Yep.

723
00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:52.019
The doctor doesn't find Galliframe.

724
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.599
He and Clara are parting their ways.

725
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:56.099
And still lying to one another.

726
00:35:57.300 --> 00:35:59.760
It's all quite downbeat.

727
00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:03.300
Do we often have that in a series finale?

728
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.880
Yes, we have horrible things happen, like, you know, to Donna or

729
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:08.940
whatever, but then there's then moments of where we're going to go

730
00:36:08.940 --> 00:36:09.239
to.

731
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:09.960
I don't know.

732
00:36:10.019 --> 00:36:11.699
It's it's this series.

733
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.000
Like, it's an uneasiness. we don't have a full conclusion.

734
00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:17.460
We've got these dark things happening.

735
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.159
Paul Danny, what happens to Danny is one of the darkest things, I

736
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:22.320
think, in the history of the show in terms of a character, right?

737
00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:25.980
And the relationship with Clara and the doctor and how headstrong

738
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:26.280
they are.

739
00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:32.039
It's, I can see why this series, I'm, it may not be liked by a lot

740
00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:35.579
of people, but I think it's quite an extraordinary series when you

741
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:37.320
watch all the different threads through.

742
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.079
And then, yeah, and they don't get it all correct.

743
00:36:40.139 --> 00:36:45.780
It's imperfect, but I really enjoy watching it and seeing new

744
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:49.800
things and picking up and on what we're talking about today.

745
00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:53.820
And as well as the extraordinary performances throughout this

746
00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:54.360
episode.

747
00:36:54.420 --> 00:36:57.360
Like Samuel Anderson, I just kudos to him.

748
00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:58.679
I just think it's fantastic.

749
00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:01.860
He actually holds this season together as the anti-Missy, doesn't

750
00:37:01.860 --> 00:37:02.039
he?

751
00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:03.360
I think he's really good.

752
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:06.480
I do think that turning him into a sort of stupid science fiction

753
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.079
robot at the end of the episode is a problem after the realism of

754
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:11.099
his death.

755
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:11.820
Yeah it is.

756
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:17.340
But I have, yeah, I have to say, like, given that he's limited to

757
00:37:17.340 --> 00:37:22.559
showing just the basic features of his face at that point, his

758
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:26.099
performance is extraordinary and elevates, it's kind of funny.

759
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:30.420
I remember at the time there were certain visuals in this I

760
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:30.960
laughed at.

761
00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:35.340
Not because they looked cheap, but just out of context, they were

762
00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:35.760
silly.

763
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:41.340
And one of them was cyber brig, which I never had an angry problem

764
00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:45.360
with, but I just thought Peter Capaldi staring at this I man and

765
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:49.079
this sideman staring wistfully back at him. just made me laugh.

766
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:53.699
And the other thing that made me laugh was Jenna Coleman hugging a

767
00:37:53.699 --> 00:37:54.420
cyberman.

768
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:55.079
Yeah, yeah.

769
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:57.420
This time I was totally into it.

770
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.780
And I think it's possibly, I've only, I think before rewatching

771
00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:03.659
the season for the podcast, I've only watched it twice.

772
00:38:03.719 --> 00:38:05.880
So once on broadcast, once about a year later.

773
00:38:05.940 --> 00:38:11.940
And I think possibly my laughter at those were discomfort and not

774
00:38:11.940 --> 00:38:15.239
discomfort that it was bad ideas, but discomfort that it was kind

775
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:16.019
of dark.

776
00:38:16.019 --> 00:38:18.539
But now I can sort of watch it and appreciate it.

777
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:24.599
Something I really love about Jenna and Sam's performances in

778
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:29.519
those bits are they're whispering to each other. you know, and

779
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:33.420
there is just so much emotion there.

780
00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:39.179
And of course, so much pain from Samuel Anderson and something you

781
00:38:39.179 --> 00:38:42.000
mentioned last week, Nathan, that you thought, if Danny was going

782
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.699
to die, it would be in some way Clara's fault.

783
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:45.360
Yeah.

784
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:51.480
But I think it not being her fault is even worse for them. you

785
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:51.719
know?

786
00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:55.619
And there's that whole bit where Clara describes Danny's death as

787
00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:56.039
boring.

788
00:38:56.099 --> 00:38:58.739
And then when the doctor's falling out of the plane and Missy's

789
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:59.519
watching it on TV.

790
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.559
Missy says, oh, he's just going to be boring and go splat.

791
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:08.519
So they both describe death as boring, but Clara's saying it

792
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:10.139
because Danny was too good for that.

793
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:14.699
And Missy saying it because she wants the doctor to have a really

794
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:16.260
interesting death.

795
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:17.400
Yeah, yeah.

796
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:18.840
She accuses him of lacking style.

797
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:19.800
Lacking style.

798
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:24.960
And of course, it's the whole Roger Moore moment from Moonraker.

799
00:39:25.019 --> 00:39:27.840
And Stephen Moffatt said, of course it's Roger Moore from

800
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:28.559
Moonraker.

801
00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:31.800
And then we have to say goodbye to Chris Addison, unfortunately.

802
00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:33.659
Permission to squeeze.

803
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:35.219
Which was amazing.

804
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:51.119
So I think that that ending is now is so bleak and so downbeat, but

805
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:55.199
Moffat absolutely is aware of that and doesn't leave us with

806
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:55.619
that.

807
00:39:55.860 --> 00:40:01.679
And remember, we said last week that this season is running late

808
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.519
so it's only a few weeks till Christmas, and I don't think, yeah

809
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:09.179
we can't understand it until we think about last Christmas.

810
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:15.900
And so that's why Santa, who is Santa Claus, is able to break into

811
00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:20.400
the closing credits and reassure us all that everything's going to

812
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:20.940
be all right.

813
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:22.800
That's right, this went out in November.

814
00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:23.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

815
00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:26.219
So Santa actually stops the closing credits.

816
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.460
Does his sort of thing saying, no, this is ridiculous.

817
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:30.420
I can't end like this.

818
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:31.139
This is terrible.

819
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:35.579
And then we go back to the closing credits and see Santa, Nick

820
00:40:35.579 --> 00:40:36.179
Frost.

821
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:40.019
Like, then we see his credit. and the rest of the credits go on.

822
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:41.099
And I think that's brilliant.

823
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:45.119
I think it's Moffatt is not ending the season here.

824
00:40:45.179 --> 00:40:49.980
This is kind of the cliffhanger where everything has gone wrong.

825
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:50.820
Danny is dead.

826
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:54.000
The doctor and Clara are never seeing one another again.

827
00:40:54.059 --> 00:40:57.780
They've both lost something that they thought they had, and

828
00:40:57.780 --> 00:41:01.079
they're both still lying to each other about it, and that will get

829
00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:04.380
fixed in the real season finale, which is last Christmas.

830
00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:07.320
Correct, Nathan.

831
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:10.559
You can't watch this series without Last Christmas.

832
00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:13.559
That is actually the series finale.

833
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.320
Back to what Brendan was saying.

834
00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:19.559
The doctor falling in the sky.

835
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:22.619
The music at that point is just phenomenal.

836
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:24.840
There's some just some great visuals.

837
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:29.099
When they take off Danny's face plate, just that makeup on

838
00:41:29.099 --> 00:41:29.639
Samuel.

839
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:30.300
Yeah.

840
00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:32.099
It's gorgeous, isn't it?

841
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:34.320
And his eyes, he plays it all through his eyes.

842
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:36.840
Like Billy Hartnell did, like all great actors do.

843
00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:38.519
Joan Crawford through the eyes.

844
00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:45.119
I think I'm just going over the one thing is that I just can't get

845
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.519
over the performances by everyone in this episode.

846
00:41:47.579 --> 00:41:51.420
And the 1st time watching things through.

847
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:54.119
You drawn to Michelle because she dominates the screen.

848
00:41:54.179 --> 00:41:58.440
You're drawn to Peter into Danny because they've got so much

849
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:01.320
dialogue of the one person, by about halfway through the episode

850
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:04.380
who has very little to say after that point, except for few bits

851
00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:05.460
is Jenna.

852
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:12.840
And I watched her during all of their talking to each other about

853
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:14.639
you know, Mr. President and whatever.

854
00:42:14.699 --> 00:42:20.760
And she is just phenomenal in the looks that she gives, you know

855
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:22.619
the subtlety there.

856
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:26.340
I just cannot underestimate how good I found her in this episode.

857
00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:29.460
She's got a big info dump quite early on too, which I was just

858
00:42:29.460 --> 00:42:31.320
saying, yeah, go for a girl, you know.

859
00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:34.440
But after that point, she's got her moments, but everybody else is

860
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:40.079
sort of more to the fore, but just holding the cyberman, Danny, and

861
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:41.340
just being there.

862
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.019
She just is selling those scenes.

863
00:42:43.139 --> 00:42:46.079
I would recommend to all listen as if to go back and watch this

864
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.559
and just watch her in that 2nd half of the episode, even with all

865
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:50.460
the other stuff going around.

866
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.159
I just think she is just incredible.

867
00:42:53.219 --> 00:42:54.539
Yes, I agree.

868
00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:58.260
I would like to say this, maybe this season is the adults, the

869
00:42:58.260 --> 00:42:59.579
grownups, mum and dad.

870
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:03.360
Michelle and Peter doing their little thing over there and causing

871
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:07.260
all these problems and making a mess because they can't resolve

872
00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:08.699
their relationship issues.

873
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:09.960
It's really all it is.

874
00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:11.639
It's attention seeking on both of their parts.

875
00:43:11.699 --> 00:43:15.000
But, but it's about the kids.

876
00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:17.280
Danny and Clara.

877
00:43:17.340 --> 00:43:21.119
You just made me think, Todd before, that there is a resolution to

878
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:21.420
this.

879
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:25.679
There is a moral core, and it is about sacrifice, and it is about

880
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:30.719
why have we just built how many 1000000 on the Senator for our own

881
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:33.239
Australian Anzac history here in Sydney and Hyde Park.

882
00:43:33.300 --> 00:43:35.699
It's because of the notion of sacrifice.

883
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:40.380
It's the reversal of, as a little boy, um, Stephen Moffatt, like

884
00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:44.340
us anyone in their 50s would have seen the, um, very popular at

885
00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:44.699
the time.

886
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.099
Antoine de Saint, ex-upires Little Prince.

887
00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:50.760
So there was a film of that in the early 70s, which we all saw as

888
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:52.980
children, and it's a book that's gone round and round.

889
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:55.199
And of course, in this case, it's the anti-version of that.

890
00:43:55.260 --> 00:43:58.260
Danny's sacrifice is to say the little boy that died.

891
00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:02.880
And by that little boy, the little Afghani boys, is perhaps, you

892
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:07.079
know, Danny's point of being alive now, and a good sacrifice must

893
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:12.239
be made to resume this in the, in the, in a way that, um, stories

894
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:14.280
like this, don't give us a resolution.

895
00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:16.739
That is the only point of hope at the end that we're left with

896
00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:16.980
this.

897
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:18.300
Oh, that and Nick Frost.

898
00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:23.699
It's funny, isn't it, that last week the doctor said that he is

899
00:44:23.699 --> 00:44:29.940
the friend that Clara absolutely deserves, and she doesn't she

900
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:34.079
doesn't kind of get Danny because he's too good for her in a way.

901
00:44:34.139 --> 00:44:35.159
Yeah.

902
00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:40.440
I do think, though, that closing scene in the cafe does have it

903
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:44.639
does have a little spark of hope, even if this had been Jenna's

904
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:46.019
last episode as originally intended.

905
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:47.159
By the time they're filming.

906
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:50.280
They've already decided she's staying for last Christmas, which

907
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:52.920
you know, that will be discussed when we get there.

908
00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:58.619
But when the doctor thinks that Clara and Danny are together and

909
00:44:58.619 --> 00:45:01.679
it's all worked out and when Clara thinks the doctor has found

910
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:04.800
Gallifrey, they are so happy for each other.

911
00:45:04.860 --> 00:45:08.039
There's no snidiness.

912
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:13.500
There's no the doctor baiting her about Danny or her baiting him

913
00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:14.340
about being king.

914
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.780
Like, it's a genuine suggestion.

915
00:45:15.900 --> 00:45:19.260
You can go be king of the time, you know, and then they hug and

916
00:45:19.260 --> 00:45:21.960
their faces fall and he's right.

917
00:45:22.019 --> 00:45:24.119
It's a way of hiding your feelings.

918
00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:26.460
And, oh, I'm welling up now.

919
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:30.480
Do you know, the hug is a that's a very television way of hiding

920
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:31.260
your feelings, though.

921
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:35.519
A TV writer says that because you get the over the shoulder shot

922
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:36.300
of each character.

923
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:39.239
So you can see what they really feel without the other character

924
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:39.960
doing it.

925
00:45:40.019 --> 00:45:43.679
It's absolute old TV trick. and he's reinterpreting it here in a

926
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:44.519
really good way I think.

927
00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:45.780
Yes, yeah.

928
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:46.800
Oh, totally.

929
00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:49.860
And it's kind of like, if this had been Clara's last scene, it

930
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:52.380
would have been downbeat, but it would have actually been okay.

931
00:45:52.500 --> 00:45:53.579
Yeah.

932
00:45:53.579 --> 00:45:54.179
You know?

933
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:55.500
And...

934
00:45:55.500 --> 00:46:02.519
I would have felt sad about it, but it's not like pure devastation

935
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:07.500
like Tegan's last scene or even Donna.

936
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:11.159
You know, Clara is still alive and she's helped Danny save this

937
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:11.579
little boy.

938
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:12.480
Yeah.

939
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:15.840
She's moving on, but she's also giving the doctor some sort of

940
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.280
closure to think that she's happy and everything's worked out for

941
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.760
her so he can go on with his and move on himself.

942
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:25.380
Because both of those are not real.

943
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.699
That's the problem.

944
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:53.579
Yeah, obviously Well, that's a depressing way to end the series

945
00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:54.420
but not to worry.

946
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:58.260
We'll be back next week to clear up all the mess with our Series 8

947
00:46:58.260 --> 00:46:59.219
retrospective.

948
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:03.719
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

949
00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:07.260
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

950
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:09.900
com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter

951
00:47:09.900 --> 00:47:13.980
and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger

952
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:18.000
Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek Project.

953
00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:21.780
Until next time, go be a king or something.

954
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.980
A queen, whatever.

955
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:24.599
So long as it makes you happy.

956
00:47:24.659 --> 00:47:26.820
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

957
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:27.719
Good night.

958
00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:30.239
See you soon and keep digging for Britain.

959
00:47:30.300 --> 00:47:31.139
Good night.

960
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:41.639
That was slight through entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan

961
00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:43.380
Bottomley, Brenda, Jones, and Richard Stone.

962
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:45.719
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

963
00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:49.199
This episode, absolutely Ainley, was recorded on the 4th of June

964
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.900
2023 and released on the 2nd of July.

965
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:58.260
As we near the end of our series 8 coverage, I'd like to thank

966
00:47:58.260 --> 00:48:02.760
everyone who joined us, Adam Richard, Adrian Poon, Fiona Tomney

967
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.199
Pete Lambert, Hannah Cooper, Paul Neil, Si Hart, Stephen B, Matthew

968
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:09.239
Hounsell, and Kevin Bernard.

969
00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:10.380
We'll see you next week.

970
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:14.699
Oh, bye.

971
00:48:14.820 --> 00:48:16.380
I think that's the end of that season.

972
00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:18.719
Oh, hope so.

973
00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:22.380
I'm going to give myself 5 seconds and if I can't remember what I

974
00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:22.920
was going to say.

975
00:48:22.980 --> 00:48:23.880
I'm just gonna move on.

976
00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:27.119
It was about Missy.

977
00:48:27.179 --> 00:48:28.860
She sings, hey, Missy.

978
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:29.519
Casting.

979
00:48:29.579 --> 00:48:30.599
She does sing.

980
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:32.760
She was originally called Misty, but it wasn't that.

981
00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:34.320
Misty, really?

982
00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:34.920
Misty.

983
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:35.400
Really?

984
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:36.059
Yeah, yeah.

985
00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:37.139
Oh, I'm glad they just go there.

986
00:48:37.980 --> 00:48:42.599
Was she mobile intelligent system interface or something?

987
00:48:42.659 --> 00:48:43.800
Yeah, yeah.

988
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:45.480
MISI.

989
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:49.320
Was it something in the group?

990
00:48:49.380 --> 00:48:49.800
Never mind.

991
00:48:49.860 --> 00:48:50.820
No, it's all right.

992
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:51.960
Can't be a bit of tag.

993
00:48:52.019 --> 00:48:52.440
Tag.

994
00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:53.460
You'll think of it later.

995
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:55.139
Yeah, that's right.

996
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:56.159
When you're on their way home.

997
00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:58.800
And another thing.

998
00:48:58.860 --> 00:49:03.960
Well, we've talked about the reason Danny's death and what makes

999
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:05.400
the story actually work.

1000
00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:09.599
I do think it just, though, and it isn't very Moffatt.

1001
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:11.159
This isn't necessarily what you might want to keep.

1002
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:12.539
I just want to hear what you want to say.

1003
00:49:12.659 --> 00:49:16.500
Mr. Moffat's way of putting everything together very quickly in a

1004
00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:17.159
haphazard.

1005
00:49:17.219 --> 00:49:20.219
All his toys in the box, shake it up, see what comes out when you

1006
00:49:20.219 --> 00:49:21.119
tip it upside down.

1007
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:25.500
It is his style and when it works, it works brilliantly.

1008
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.920
You probably manage to convince me that it does work here.

1009
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:33.119
But the reviews at the time also said, even the Guardian, who's

1010
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:36.059
and, you know, the Guardian UK is uniquely positive.

1011
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:36.960
Yeah, positive.

1012
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:43.860
Still, this one still came in for criticism because of the plot

1013
00:49:43.860 --> 00:49:46.500
holes and inconsistencies and points of...

1014
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:48.599
Yeah, I mean, that's Mr. Moffat's style.

1015
00:49:48.659 --> 00:49:54.840
I think that maybe all 3 Capaldi finales are pretty great.

1016
00:49:54.900 --> 00:49:59.760
And I'm not sure about how bent because I haven't seen it since

1017
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:03.360
the, you know, the inevitable watching 12 months later when the

1018
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:04.500
blue race come out.

1019
00:50:04.619 --> 00:50:07.679
And I'm keen to see, and I've obviously watched Heaven Sent just

1020
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:09.780
any number of times because it's magnificent.

1021
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:10.199
Yeah.

1022
00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:13.559
And then the series 101 is great too.

1023
00:50:13.619 --> 00:50:14.699
Like just incredible.

1024
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:17.159
They're all great, but they're all very dark.

1025
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:19.500
Even compared to the Matt Smith one.

1026
00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:20.820
Yeah, yeah, it could be very dark.

1027
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:25.320
And so I can understand, it kind of leaves the audience, especially

1028
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:28.079
I think, the general audience who aren't collecting the Blu-rays

1029
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:32.039
and the action figures and, you know, the Roger, Robert

1030
00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:34.440
Terreleptal sculpture.

1031
00:50:34.739 --> 00:50:37.920
Yeah, I think it could be the bad taste in the mouth.

1032
00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:42.000
Something I was just thinking about with Danny's death is there's

1033
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:48.059
a big finish audio where missy jokes that she once killed a big

1034
00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:48.659
finish audio.

1035
00:50:48.659 --> 00:50:52.139
There's a big finish audio where missy jokes that she once killed

1036
00:50:52.139 --> 00:50:53.639
a mass teacher with a milk float.

1037
00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:56.460
And it's clearly a reference to Danny.

1038
00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:59.219
But it's also the fact you then go, well, hold on.

1039
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.639
The doctor and Clara only get involved because Danny was killed

1040
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:06.900
and Missy does imply that she wanted them to find her.

1041
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:09.300
Oh, so she kills her.

1042
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:11.940
She kills Danny Pink with a milk she does.

1043
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:14.159
I thought she might have run over the brigadier.

1044
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:16.139
I thought that was the claim that she was making.

1045
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:17.880
Well, it's got a reverse gear.

1046
00:51:17.940 --> 00:51:24.480
Well, well dressed, as John Pertwee, as Jones the milk, yeah, for

1047
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:24.840
Green Death.

1048
00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:25.980
With that fake moustache.

1049
00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:27.960
With that fake, which Richard's wearing now.

1050
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:29.820
We both.

1051
00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:32.219
Both doing it now.

1052
00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:33.179
All right.

1053
00:51:33.239 --> 00:51:34.320
I think we, what do you want?

1054
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:34.980
That was really sweet.

1055
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:35.880
Todd have another thing?

1056
00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:38.460
No, I was just gonna... no, it's okay.

1057
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:39.599
Oh, say something.

1058
00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:41.039
Oh no, it's really boring.

1059
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:42.360
It was just that...

1060
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:48.960
An audience is 7.6 million. with an AI of 83, which means that it

1061
00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:51.360
was actually... well liked.

1062
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:54.539
I mean, the Christmas special will have an AI of 82.

1063
00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:56.400
So, you know, that's still high too.

1064
00:51:56.460 --> 00:51:57.420
So that's still high too.

1065
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:01.019
And that gets a bigger general audience, so it's impressive that

1066
00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:01.980
it gets that high.

1067
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:03.360
Yeah, it does.

1068
00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:04.739
Yeah, everyone's watching it.

1069
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:05.340
Yeah.

1070
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:08.880
But not as much as previous Christmas specials.

1071
00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:10.380
This one is a bit more muted.

1072
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:12.539
I really like, I'm looking forward to this.

1073
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:13.559
I love last Christmas.

1074
00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:15.300
Oh, it's wonderful.

1075
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:16.619
I'm going to watch it today.

1076
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:19.559
I'm going to the home and do the ironing and watch it today. really

1077
00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:19.739
good.

1078
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:22.500
But you know, I think this doesn't wrap everything up, as you

1079
00:52:22.500 --> 00:52:22.739
said.

1080
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:26.639
But I think there are certain elements that are tied up with

1081
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:33.239
storylines and so I find it, like we're uneasy about some things

1082
00:52:33.239 --> 00:52:34.380
and I think we're not used to that.

1083
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:35.340
That's okay.

1084
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:36.539
I think that's okay.

1085
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:36.960
Yeah, yeah.

1086
00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:37.559
And that's a good thing.

1087
00:52:37.619 --> 00:52:38.099
Yeah.

1088
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:41.760
And the thing is, I think, unlike other things, I have been uneasy

1089
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:46.559
about it, Doctor, I think this is written to make you feel a bit

1090
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:46.980
uneasy.

1091
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:51.659
It's not a consequence of not thinking through the consequences of

1092
00:52:51.659 --> 00:52:52.619
what you're saying about a character.

1093
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:53.340
Yeah.

1094
00:52:53.340 --> 00:52:57.539
I think things have been thought through to a level they need to

1095
00:52:57.539 --> 00:53:02.639
be and most questions that remain are questions deliberately put

1096
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:03.719
in the mind of the viewer.

1097
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:04.320
Yeah, yeah.

1098
00:53:04.500 --> 00:53:07.139
All right, I'm going to press stop.

1099
00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:08.639
Yeah, I'm sure we have an out somewhere there.