Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast, which inflates dramatically at
moments of high emotion.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Todd.
I'm Peter.
And I'm Simon.
Well, we started the year by kicking a guy out of an airborne
restaurant and continued by insulting some organic soldiers and
foiling a couple of robotic ones, pushing a beloved childhood hero
in a river, ruining our friend's 1st date, belittling her
boyfriend, telling a historically important child.
She's not special, writing insulting signs, disappearing just as
the moon hatches, giving school children the most important
homework in history, for giving a friend, and making a short trip
to the underworld.
It's been an eventful 12 episodes, so it's time to take stock in
our series H retrospective.
Here we go.
Simon, here's one for you.
Snog, marry a void.
The teller, the boneless trees.
Oh, dear.
Well, I think I have to marry the tailor because actually once you
get to know him, he does seem very, very good company.
I guess...
I think you can do snoggy.
Nice of you to say so, Peter.
The boneless.
Oh, dear.
Well, I'm avoiding the boneless, and so I'm snogging trees.
We've all done it. sentence.
Okay, here's another one.
Peter.
Oh, yes.
Snog, marry your void.
Kill the moon, the caretaker in the forest of the night.
Okay, I'm going to avoid in the forest of the night because why
the hell wouldn't you?
I will snog kill the moon just because I think it can be quite
racy in places, even if it doesn't work out.
So I would have to marry the caretaker, which I don't know if you
go through life with the caretaker, do you?
No, terrible.
Okay, but that's what you left for.
Quickie divorce, end up with, you know, mummy.
I actually quite like, I've had a Todd experience.
Within the forest of the night.
I actually did not find it as bad as I thought it was going to
be.
But do you mean it was still bad, just not quite as bad?
It's not my least favourite of the year.
That would have to go to Kill the Moon.
But only because of the performance of the lead actress, not
Jenna.
Hermione Norris. and I agree with you, Simon.
When I listen to that.
She's just so dour all the way through.
And I guess that's her job, but I just thought it was very one
note.
Yeah.
See, I don't like Kill the Moon at all, and I don't think it's the
worst episode of the season in the Forest of the Night definitely
is.
Oh, absolutely.
I think the caretaker is because I think it's so crucial to the
arc and it fumbles so badly by just making everyone horribly
unlikeable and it takes a long while to recover.
And I think for some people, they never kind of recover from
that.
Whereas I think they both kill the moon and in the forest of the
night remind people who think that Doctor Who is about base
corridors that that's not what it's about or what its tone is at
all.
So it does push things too far for some people, I think
understandably, but it tries to do something different.
Just like having Santa turn up in last Christmas, I think.
It's strange because I don't think that there are many just
regular episodes this season.
I think there's a bunch of really great episodes and a bunch of
episodes that do not hit the mark.
And the episodes that don't hit the mark all don't hit the mark
for different reasons.
So in the forest of the night is just an utter failure of
production, as well as being stupid in places.
It's something which does make my fanboy heart cringe.
Caretaker gets the relationships all kinds of wrong and is also, I
think, as was talked about. on the episode, which I wasn't on, has
some very problematic things going on, which people making the
show probably didn't even realise, but that's not what the end
result is.
And I know I'm not going to be popular with Todd for saying this
but I think that robots of Sherwood is really dull and obvious.
But, you know, then you've got half a dozen episodes, which are
really immaculately great.
And I think I would prefer a season like this to one like last
season, series 7, where everything was just a bit kind of mare.
Yeah.
I always give episodes marks for trying, for having a good idea
even if it doesn't necessarily work.
I think in the Forest of the Night, for me, is a failure because
it goes back to when I was watching Paradise Towers, episode 4 on
its 1st transmission here and my brother walked into the lounge
room at a few moments and basically just said at one point, Oh my
god, this is so, and then he swore, I think this is a G rated
podcast, but so I felt mortally embarrassed for watching it.
And I think if someone saw me watching in the forest of the night
at many times, I would be cringing and I think just echoing what
you said, Peter.
It makes my fanboy heart cringe because I think there's so much
about it, which is kind of like a children's show.
That feeling, that experience of having someone wander in and see
you watching Doctor Who being embarrassing is so incredibly kind
of engrained into all of our fan DNA.
And all of our listeners, probably.
It's really important, motivating, critical factor for all of us.
I think it's pretty funny.
I totally agree with you.
And Simon, I've got flashbacks because I know my father tried to
bond with me watching Doctor Who, and of course it was.
It was either Paradise Towers or Time in the Rani, and I literally
turned to him and said to him, please just, oh, this is so
embarrassing.
Leave the room.
I basically said that, like, of all things, it was that.
But we digress.
I'm going to go back to in the forest of the night.
I actually really do like spending time with Clara, Danny and the
doctor.
And I think that's the part that I enjoyed the most of that
episode.
The whole, who's the sister that suddenly just comes out of the
porch at the end.
That's so poorly realised beyond Annabelle?
awful.
Something like that.
Annabelle, it's just awful.
She looks like she's going to murder everyone.
She like appears looking like really angry and it's kind of like
what's going on here?
It's the final shot of the episode.
It's very bad.
I think I think I mentioned in the finale somewhere that I really
do consider this whole concept of a Sarah Jane Adventure sort of
thing and a very poorly realised Sarah Jane Adventures, but I did
like it a lot more than I thought I was going to, perhaps because
I went in with such low expectations.
But I really would have liked to have spent more time with
Courtney, who just seems to get dropped after her couple of
episodes in the middle of the season.
It would have been good to see her again, unlike those 2 Gormless
children from last year, who also just got dropped for no reason
at all.
He does a couple of episodes and then says goodbye, that's it.
Yeah, so in the forest of the night for me, was not the least
enjoyable to watch.
I actually find Kill the Moon that because when they start
agonising over the decision and they, I just find that from that
point on.
And I'm not particularly sold on the chicken, the egg thing, I
don't totally hate it now, but I just find that that story for me
collapses.
And so even into the Dalek, which is all over the shop. and I've
mentioned that before I think I enjoy a bit more.
Back to what you were saying, Peter, about episodes this year.
I love the fact that this season is imperfectly perfect for me.
I just think there are some wonderful episodes.
All the other episodes which I have problems with.
There's actually aspects in them that I actually really do like as
opposed to totally dislike the thing.
Um, I guess that's one of the things that I probably mentioned, is
that there are different themes running through all these episodes
and you can choose which path you want to go down.
You could just decide on an obvious tack that I'm just going to
wait for Missy to turn up and watch that part of it.
It's a shame that she's actually not in an episode earlier or Seb
where they're actually controlling the action, but the doctor
never actually gets to see them.
I think that would have been fun to have.
Obviously, we can't have her being like with the reveal at the end
of the year, but it would have been nice to have had some sort of
more than just, you know, walking in the background and being in
the promised land.
It's interesting what you said about Kil the Moon, Todd, because I
think that you don't like Kil the Moon for the same reason as I
don't like in the Forest of the Night.
I think Kilamoon has actually quite a few things to recommend it.
I don't think it's very good, but there is some good stuff in
there.
But it just, at some point, pitches past that feeling where
everything, like, we talk about the science and all of that, but
at some point it all just becomes cumulative and you kind of give
up on it and go, oh, actually, it's just a bit stupid, and I had
the same feeling within the forest of the night.
See, I think I understand why Todd doesn't like Kill the Moon
because we said in our episode that it presents a choice, we get
to make a choice between Doctor Who and kind of generic space
stuff, but we're given so much generic space stuff at the
beginning, and that choice only gets made very, very close to the
end of the episode.
And so it does risk being very dreary, I think, up until that
point.
And it's leavened a bit because there's some sort of fun spider
action or whatever.
But I think I can see why that tone is a problem.
I think for me, both of them have a similar issue and I brought
this sort of comment up before about other episodes that I don't
like.
And I know Nathan you sort of scoff at this suggestion, but for me
it's about the suspension of disbelief.
Now, recognising that, you know, we have a police telephone box
that can travel through space and time that's bigger on the inside
and the outside.
Yes, I know it's all ridiculous, but there are things that within
an episode have to make sense with itself. internal logic
Sometimes internal. the internal logic of something.
So a world is set up.
A world meeting, kind of broadly speaking, is set up in an episode
or a story.
And there are sort of rules that are set in place.
And usually those rules are established in the 1st few minutes.
And I think the problem with both those episodes is, well, the
problem with Kilda Moon is that it sets up some, I feel like it
sets up some rules in the 1st 5 minutes, which I then feel get
completely thrown out. the window and then new ones brought in and
then they get thrown out and then a whole other ones get brought
in and then we decide, oh, okay, it's a bit of everything.
In the forest of the night fails for me, even though I think there
are some absolutely stunning and great scenes with the regulars.
I just think the overall concept, I think, needed a little bit
more thinking through because I just don't buy it.
I just think it's quite ridiculous.
And I also think it's sort of sending the wrong message that it
doesn't matter how we treat the planet because at the end of the
day all the trees will kind of, you know, protect us. a bunch of
wrong messages, actually, including about...
Yeah, eggs and medication and all that sort of stuff.
I think the medication thing is a genuine problem and it does seem
to be like an old guy thinking that kids are too medicated these
days and putting that into the show.
I can see the risk that that episode takes in saying that the
planet will just fix itself.
But I also think that what's happening there is it's a more kind
of, it's telling us the role that the forest plays, in that it
protects us from what's going on in space.
It makes our atmosphere, our world habitable.
And so we see it doing that in this sort of very obvious way.
But the takeaway message isn't that if we ruin the planet enough, a
massive worldwide forest will spring up and save us all.
It is that the trees are important. harm the trees.
And I think I think that's okay.
I also think very strongly that whether you think a story is
credible or not depends very strongly on the age you were when you
1st saw it.
And so everyone's favourite season 7 episode posits that there's
goo in the earth's crust that when you touch it, you turn into a
werewolf and like no one is saying that's a preposterous story
scientifically.
And how could anyone enjoy it?
So I do think that's a thing.
This series does take Doctor Who further in that direction than
it's been taken before.
And if it fails for some people, I don't mind because I really
want Doctor Who to do something new.
That's the one thing that Doctor Who should be doing.
It's the reason that we hated the 80s because it was just doing
the same old stuff for.
In fact, not doing the same old stuff.
Yeah, I didn't hate the 80s actually.
One of the problems with the 80s is that it's too reverential to
previous source material instead of pushing us in bold new
directions.
But you see, the thing with patches, patches of it, yes.
The thing with Inferno is that it is preposterous, the idea, but
that's fine.
Doctor is full of preposterous ideas, but the rules within it are
set up and maintained throughout the episode.
And so you can believe in the, quote unquote, preposterous world
that it sets up.
Yeah, but what Nathan's sort of saying is because we saw Inferno
when we were, what would have been, I'd have been 12 or something
at the time, 13.
It's better than if we'd have seen it as a 50-year-old for the 1st
time.
I think there is something in that.
No, but I think there is something in that, but I think it
explained some things, but I don't think it explains everything.
I think it does explain some reactions that we have as fully grown
adults, allegedly, to some of the new series stuff.
But at the same time, you know, we keep saying that, you know
young people, you know, kids are so much smarter than they were in
previous generations, but I feel like something like in the Forest
of the Night is not treating that audience with the respect it
deserves.
Taking a different take now.
I was mentioning the Missy Arc very briefly.
I mean, obviously Michelle Gomez is fantastic.
I just think she just sells every single line that she's given.
But when it comes to the whole year, like the master's really not
in it very much at all.
Like, I mean, if you look at Delgado's 1st year as the master, like
plot wise is in every story and is instigator of so many things.
And here the grand plan is just to produce a cyber army, to give
to the doctor.
Which makes no sense.
That's right. that you've mentioned.
Well, just like Delgado's plans, I guess.
But she has such a presence, but she's not really involved very
much at all.
So I was thinking back on previous arcs.
Both Moffatt and RTD.
And I think that this is the only one that does the roughly half
the episodes have a scene which reminds us of the arc and is
solely there for that reason.
I'm thinking of a couple of scenes maybe in series three, you know
in Lazarus experiment and the one 42, you know, which has Mr
Saxons kind of minions interacting with Francine, perhaps.
Yeah, that woman from Holy Oaks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mysterious woman.
I think she might be called.
I think that those scenes are themselves absolutely hilarious.
Like, they're really properly funny.
I love when she offers tea to Gretchen in Into the Dalek, which I
think is just sort of, is it Gretchen?
Yeah, it is.
All of that stuff is great.
Every moment that she's on the screen is just truly splendid.
And I think we get more of her than we might have expected.
And I think the master even now deserves a little bit of buildup
as well.
Like, I just, it was one of my objections to SpyFall part one is
oh, it's suddenly just the master and we've literally had no
buildup to that at all.
And maybe the 3rd time you don't need quite an extensive buildup
I'm not sure.
But the build-up to missing, I think, is so great, and the reveal
is just so magnificent.
And Moffatt clearly loves her so much that he can't leave her
alone and just puts her in the 1st story of the next season
because she's so great.
Yeah, and also it's helpful to view, I think, Missy as not being
in the whole season.
Missy is really only in dark water and death in heaven.
It's just that we keep getting extended previews of it, which is
amazing.
Yeah, it's the good thing about doing it that way is that those
little epilogue scenes in those episodes don't interfere with the
telling of those episodes.
No.
They are sometimes in the middle, aren't they?
They're not always immediately at the end.
Yes, that is true.
No, they're not always at the very end, but they're not. they're
not important to to the episode at all.
And they are vastly more interesting than the doctor just checking
that Amy is, yep, pregnant again at the start of every episode.
Yes.
Yes, yes.
That's very true.
Very true.
It certainly keeps people hooked into that if that's what you're
interested in as opposed to perhaps, am I a good man?
Yeah.
Which is one of the other arcs for the season.
And I think it's a good exploration, but was it the right decision
to make?
You've talked a bit about this, Nathan.
Well, I think Flatline is the episode that gets at the most
right.
And I think I said in that episode it wasn't a critique of the
12th doctor as much as it was a critique of the doctor, that thing
about how the doctor lies because people who have hope run faster
than those that don't.
And so the doctor's role is dishonest.
And although they're a good outcomes to that, what does it mean
about him as a person?
And like, I think, ultimately, that it fails, because it seems
strange that the 12 doctor is having this moral crisis about the
12 doctor's character even before he really does anything.
Oh, well, he beats up a trap, doesn't he?
pushes that guy out the window.
But do you know what I mean?
He's having this sort of moral crisis.
I don't know.
I don't think it's to do with beating up the train, but I don't
think it's a 12th doctor wondering whether the 12th doctor is a
good man.
It is the 12th doctor wondering whether the doctor is a good man.
And I think I touched on this in deep breath in that he's just
supposedly regenerated. he's now living on borrowed time.
Like he was supposed to reach the end of his life with his last
incarnation in this story that was created.
And so I think the fact that he's effectively cheated death and
been given a whole new cycle or infinite regenerations, whatever
the hell it is, is making him kind of having a self-doubt moment
as to who am I and why am I here?
I think that's the best, the better explanation for why he's
having that self-doubt. new life crisis Exactly.
Not because he's regenerated into Peter Capaldi.
Yeah.
And also they've just come off the 50th and the 50th, the day of
the doctor is all about. could the doctor be the person who did
this terrible thing.
So a little bit of kind of introspection following that is to be
expected, really.
And it is a Moffat obsession, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, I do find it a little bit tedious.
Yes, it is.
It is a bit.
I mean, but I do find a little bit... unnecessary.
I mean, I know it's the thing that they like to do.
I don't think it's done with much subtlety, actually.
Thank you, Peter.
I agree with you.
It's not subtle in the way it's shoehorned into certain scenes and
episodes.
And I think I've mentioned it.
It's like having a painting where suddenly it's quite bright and
everything and then you have this dark mark there.
There just has to be put in.
And so sometimes I kind of think, oh, do we really have to go
there?
That could have been written better with this.
And I do think in Flatline when he comes out of the TARDIS and is
doing his big, huge speech to the boneless. is just a wonderful
moment.
And it's where initially that I finally said, yes, he's here, he's
arrived.
I really love Peter Capaldi as the doctor.
I know in that episode, I think Stephen was saying that this, was
it Stephen that was saying that it needed to be earlier in the
season?
Perhaps it did.
Perhaps it's perfect where it actually is because going back on
rewatch, it's actually, I just find it intriguing watching that
particular arc, the journey and the decisions that they've made
whether you agree with it or not, and how we get to that
particular point.
I mean, I certainly think from that point forward, it's sort of
like, well, you've really answered, am I a good man?
Like, do we need to go back and keep revisiting that in the finale
or whatever?
Because by the time we get to last Christmas, Capaldi's actually
really likeable in that.
I mean, he's still grumpy and that's he's got all these character
traits, but he's actually quite loveable in last Christmas.
I don't see how you cannot like him and Clara with Dr. and Clara
in last Christmas.
I think one of the things of this season, been imperfectly perfect
is that I think the acting from both of them is just immaculate
but do you really like them a lot of the time?
Yeah, we've talked an awful lot about the fact that, you know, the
doctor and companion relationship works best when it's a warm
relationship because they are our friends and introducing a
dysfunctional element to that is interesting, and I want to see
that.
It's just, it's not really very well handled here.
And so you get these sledgehammer moments like Into the Dalek.
She's my carer.
She cares so that I don't have to.
We're just thinking, well, where are you going with that?
Yes, come on.
Well, look, yeah, I mean, I don't mind those sorts of things.
Even when he comes out with something which is quite cruel.
It's usually funny.
I don't care. it's great.
What I'd say is that I always prefer the show Don't Tell root.
I mean, I don't think that Doctor Who is the kind of program that
the viewership wants to go down these kind of introspective
routes.
I don't think that's what it's there for.
It's certainly not what it's there for for me.
I mean, there's there's actual proper drama programs if I want
that, you know, that sort of thing.
Yes, we need the program to be a little bit more, you know
realistic with characters in the modern era compared to the way it
was back in the day.
But rather than questioning, you know, am I a good man effectively
throughout it, it's just better for that to be kind of an
underlying thing that they, that's how they write it and that's
how they they characterise it rather than it all being so
blatant.
Yes, he's the doctor.
He's a good man. there we go There we go.
A flawed, yes.
Show the floors, by all means show the flaws, but at the end of
the day, he's a good man.
Of course he is. you know don't be ridiculous.
I think it's a reaction, though, against Matt Smith's doctor, who
everyone thinks is terribly loveable, but who is provably actually
quite awful at times, like bringing that forward a bit, that seems
like an obvious thing to do.
If Moffatt's writing a doctor who is kind of terrible and makes
terrible decisions and manipulates his companions and various
other things, then let's actually bring that to the fore so
everyone notices it because I'm not sure that everyone does notice
it.
And I do think that the following doctor after Capaldi is a
reaction against this and ends up being a much less interesting
character as a result, I think.
I think I just prefer the Matt Smith interpretation where they
make him do horrible things, but they don't do it up front.
And who cares whether a lot of the audience don't pick that up?
You know, it's great for us, the fans to pick that up. that's, I
suppose, what I'm saying.
I'd rather just continue down that tack.
But I agree what you're saying about Jody being too much of a
reaction against Capaldi.
Capaldi's nastiness. she's too sweetness and light.
You know, the place that I always go is horrifying wrong.
Tom in Horror of Fang Rock, who's saving them all, but being sort
of very horrible to just about everyone all the way through, which
is magnificent.
I think also, um, this is all highlighted too with the doctor's
relationship with Danny as well.
I mean, Danny's also a very flawed character, extremely well
played by Samuel, but he's not necessarily the nicest person, but
you know, for a lot of it, they're in such conflict, which is
unnecessary.
And even at the end of the year with what happens with the
character of Danny, like killing him off, which is quite horrible
in itself, but, um, it leaves sort of unpleasant, unresolved sort
of dynamic there.
I mean, I do think the doctor does say, you know, we'll make a
math teach you out of you yet, PE.
And there is a resolution and he does want to try, he's, he's
making amends for his horrible behaviour by, you know, giving him
the way to get back from wherever he is and wanting to see Clara
with, with Danny.
But for a lot of it, it's just sledgehammer stuff like, as you
said, which I just think is perhaps for the casual viewer is a bit
of eternal.
It's interesting that you say that Danny is not a particularly
nice character sometimes.
I think Danny's got a lot of agency and that's the reason why I
like him.
Usually when you get a new regular character who comes in or a
semi-regular character, they kind of subordinate themselves to the
doctor and the companion, and so they're there to service those
characters.
Whereas Danny actually has his own agency and is to Clara like, why
are you going off with this guy?
You should be in a relationship with me.
That's what I signed up for.
And so I like the fact that he's just kind of like a normal person
who has come into this arrangement and actually just wants normal
things.
He doesn't care that she's going off with her doctorate, time and
space.
He wants to be able to go on a date with her.
Yeah, I think that the caretaker has to take a lot of the blame
for how that fails to work properly.
And it's not just the obvious things in the caretaker, where
everyone's sort of super unlikeable.
It's where Danny kind of goes, why didn't you tell me about your
secret alien friend who you travel off with in time and space as
if like there are...
I'd have thought I was a lunatic.
Yeah, that's right.
There are moral rules about that.
No one told me that.
Yes exactly.
And she could turn around and say, why didn't you tell me you
could do a triple somersault?
Yeah, yeah.
A little different though.
No, I agree with you both of those points.
I mean, I do like Danny a lot.
And I do like the fact that he has his own agency.
I think that is great.
It's not like, I don't want to say Rory per se, but, you know, so
often the boyfriends end up liking the doctor and the doctor ends
up sort of liking them and they all get on board with going.
He's Mr. Pond.
Yeah.
And they end up being doormats, basically.
Yes, yes.
Whereas, whereas here that doesn't happen, and that is
uncomfortable.
But that's what I think anyway.
Yeah, I do think we were missing an episode where, actually, it
wouldn't have worked for the theme, but I did want to see it where
Danny actually accompanies the Dr. and Clara on a proper outer
space episode.
Yeah, I mean, I think in the forest of the night is trying to do
that for sure.
Failing miserably Well, no, I think that's the best part of it.
And I think in last Christmas you do get Danny and the doctor
teaming up to save Clara's life in one scene.
So I think that's part of the problem is that we're doing a
retrospective, but there's really only a very few weeks between
death in heaven and last Christmas.
And the end of Death in Heaven is so downbeat and so problematic
that Santa has to break into the closing credits to make sure that
everything's okay.
And then we find the Titanic a few years earlier.
That's right.
But he actually, because he's Santa, he has the power to stop the
credits.
Then he comes in and does this sort of thing.
And then and then the credits resume with Nick Frost as Santa as
well, like almost immediately.
But it's because it's a problem and it is because all of that
stuff is going to be properly resolved in last Christmas.
That's true.
I personally do think there are quite a few things resolved in
that last episodes still.
I do think that you do get a resolution on the whole PE plot.
And I do, and I do think having cyber brig there with the doctor
saluting the cyber brig Gadir, whether you like it or not, is his
way of acknowledging the military in a way that he has had a
problem with them all year, which, you know, again, is another one
of the themes of the year, whether you like it or not, to borrow
someone else's vernacular.
But last Christmas.
I can't help but love that in terms of the resolution of all 3
characters.
You know, that beautiful moment with the doctor and older Clara
and the Christmas cracker, which harks back to time of the doctor
which moved me to tears.
And the joy in the 12th doctor in the sleigh.
Yeah, yeah.
And the hug that Clara gives her superhero friend or whatever the
what does she say?
It's a hug where she hugs him from behind, so their faces aren't
facing in opposite directions, which was the problem with the hug
at the end of series 8 at the end of death in heaven.
So it really absolutely is definitely there.
And it's our 1st 12 episode season where the 13th episode is the
Christmas special.
And it's almost like Moffat has plotted it just like one 13
episode season.
Yeah, because you know, it's all going on October to December.
Why not?
Yeah.
I mean, I haven't actually rewatched last Christmas yet.
So my memory is from a decade ago, but I still feel that even
though it does help to resolve more things, I still feel it's kind
of too much of an epilogue, it's like, well, let's just milk it a
bit more because she decided to stay and we're going to keep
going.
Whereas as Todd, you said, I think it does wrap up satisfactory at
the end of Death in Heaven.
I mean, yes, obviously you can do more later, but I don't know.
I was just happy with ending it there.
That's before Santa breaks into the Tartars.
I just don't think you can have that be the companion departure
the thing at death in heaven.
You know, what's the nearest analogue?
Is it Tegan leaving at the end of Resurrection of the Daleks where
their relationship breaks down irreparably and they just part ways
and they do it in this sort of very English way where no one
really says what they mean and all of that sort of thing?
dodo in the war machines. that's right I think that's too
downbeat.
And while it would have been interesting because it would have
been a little bit like Martha's departure.
It's like a real person reason.
It's not space reasons for the partying.
It's like, I just don't like this anymore and I want to go. that's
what I was liking.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just a bit too busy.
I like the real person reasons.
The fact that Jenna is staying on, and that decision isn't made
till late in the year. may or may not have influenced the writing
of this.
You know, had she decided that she was going to go before
Christmas, then maybe he would have written things differently or
even before, you know, Christmas itself when they were at the read
through to suddenly say that I'm staying.
Would that have changed what happened to Danny, would that have
changed anything in the season?
I properly think not, looking back at it.
I do feel that it's, you know, he's not going to go and kill a
long-term companion at Christmas.
I mean, Russell's quite happy to kill Kylie at Christmas, but
she's only in there for that episode, you know?
And so having her stay on.
He's already building the storylines of her addiction, but into
next year, and there's either one or 2 ways that's going to go
whether you, you know, if you're addicted to, say, smoking and you
have patches to wing yourself off it, or it's going to go in the
completely other direction.
I mean, I would have really liked to have seen Shona come on as an
alternative companion where she's sort of like the apprentice
companion and Clara sort of weans is swinging herself off the
doctor.
And certainly in last Christmas.
Just watching it.
It's like she calls the doctor a magician, Shona does, and he
calls her an apprentice at some point, perhaps harking to the 1st
episode of next year, but as great as they are as a team, having
another season of these 2 characters, the same old same old is
perhaps a mistake.
Yeah, after this season, I just don't know actually what more
there is to say about the doctor and Clara.
I mentioned in one of the episodes earlier that the character of
Clara, I've done a bit of a change of heart.
Like, I really think from time of the doctor through the end of
the season, she's actually really, she's much more of a character
than the Impossible Girl, and I actually have really loved her
performances and the journey this season so much more.
But yes, Peter, I agree with you.
It's sort of like, is it time to let it go?
sooner rather than later.
Does that have an impact on viewers coming back next season?
I don't think it has an impact on viewers coming back.
I just think the characters run its course.
Whether it's death in heaven or last Christmas, I think that
should have been one of those 2 should have been the Swan song 100
for her.
Except that I have to say that the final scene in last Christmas
with her, though it's good, is nothing like so good as what we end
up getting in Face the Raven.
Like, I think we do end up with something more interesting in her
departure.
A little bit more operatic and overblown, but I'm here for that
too.
This sort of segues into a question that Stephen B has asked us
which is this.
I would like to know what you will think contributed to the
decline in ratings.
Dave, the doctor was such a hit, but we drop unjustly to 6700000
viewers with flatline, is an older grumpier doctor the cause or
has traditional television medits match in streaming.
I'm going to disagree with the premise of that question because I
don't think that the ratings really are affected much this year.
They're little bit down on Matt Smith's last year, even not taking
into account day of the doctor and time of the doctor.
And so I think that will account for ratings falling off a bit of
a cliff next year, but I think there's residual goodwill in this
season coming off the 50th, that the audience mainly sticks with
it.
I think then you just have a 9 month break between this and the
next season.
And the interest seems to have evaporated a little bit.
I remember living in Britain at the time, and Doctor Who, during
the David Tennant and Matt Smith eras, was all over media.
So they would be appearing on comedy shows and hosting and chat
shows and all of that.
And it just seemed overnight.
It sort of dried up after the 50th.
And so I'm wondering if that's really the reason it just wasn't
pervasive anymore.
And then you get like a whole year without Doctor Who and then you
get series 10.
Yeah.
I think it's definitely the hangover, the 50th anniversary
hangover, and I think Doctor Who suffers from it after the 20th
anniversary as well.
It's everywhere and then people are just a little bit over it.
You're right, Peter.
I was just looking at the ratings for series 7 versus series 8 and
they are pretty similar with a few.
Oh, actually, no, that's the snowman.
So that's the Christmas episodes.
So that's kind of up.
But yeah.
It sort of falls by like .2 of a 1000000 over the season.
It gets into the Sixers, you know, with Crimson Horror and
Nightmare and Silver, but which is kind of where this season ends
up in the middle.
But there is a substantial drop after deep breath.
There's like three, you know, 2500000 between the two. which is
interesting.
Can I just talk to this as well?
Yeah, you've got a table there.
Oh, I like tables.
I like all the ratings here.
Yes.
And my tables here totally agree with you.
There is the same pattern in the 2nd half of the Matt Smith
seasons is, and even in David Tennant's, is that you do get drops
into the 6 millions in that 2nd half of the season.
And I have to say like 6.7, been the lowest in this season, is
more than 4 of the episodes for Matt Smith last season.
So it's not like it's really dramatic.
And I do think I totally agree with you.
It's the hangover after the 50th, but it's also a natural stepping
off point.
I think a lot of television series and I'm probably thinking more
of Australia and America.
A lot of series to the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s would last five, six, 7
years, maybe 8 if you were a big hit.
And there's a natural point where ratings do begin to climb and
then they decide to call it a day.
And here, you've got Matt Smith coming in for series 5 where
people could have stopped watching, but it was such a hit and they
were so wonderful.
And then that renews the audience and then you've got the buildup
to the 50th and people are still there.
And then this year they're still with the show.
And if it had been just a grumpy doctor.
I think we would have just had a free fall throughout the entire
season, which is simply not the case, you know, it comes back at
the end of the season.
What's interesting, I think, is the Christmas special, which is
the 1st time a Christmas special has not reached 9000000 viewers.
It's 8.6 or something like that, 8.7, but there's a 1000000
watching on BBC iPlayer, which indicates, I think, a shift in
viewing habits.
And if that stuff is added in now.
Like if half of that had been added in, it would have gotten over
9 million.
You also look at the audience appreciation, the audience
appreciation for this season.
Very good, like 82, 83, 84 and 85 for those mummy and flatline
which are my favourites of the season.
But if you look back at Matt Smith, he's getting 85, 86, 87, 88
for a lot of things.
And say the tenor was getting into the 90s sometimes.
Yeah, that's right.
There's subtle shifts going on.
As you say, when we come back.
It's suddenly 6.5,50000 and even this season is still placing
about the same in the mid-teens.
Next season, it is about 6 or 7 places lower than that.
So there is a bit of fatigue.
And I kind of think had we had a new companion coming into next
season that may have just generated a bit more.
The doctor and Clara and the TARDIS, same old, same old.
Stephen, sorry to say, I don't think it's as bad as perhaps that
perspective makes out or what the general consensus happens to be
that, oh, suddenly it just fell away that I don't agree.
Simon?
Although that is to come, I think.
I think I think he's question is just one season early, early
perhaps.
If I can just sort of explore the hangover thing.
I don't think it's just necessary that people at home are sick of
it, but I think it's Peter, you were mentioned, doctor was
everywhere in the media.
You know, there were people on chat shows, there were media
stories about it.
And I think so, it's actually the PR machine.
Well, not the PR machine, but the respondents to the PR machine
that are going, oh, we've done stories about Dr. Elasi.
We won't bother having that many interviews and we won't have this
many features in the daily, this, that, and the other.
And so that actually then makes people less aware that it's on.
And maybe the BBC trailer people go, oh, we won't show as many
trailers anymore because we did that last year and, you know, we've
had enough of that.
There's this new thing that we want to do.
And it kind of, it's snowballs, that does start to snowball.
It does.
And also, it's the kind of program there is as well.
So for rightly or for wrongly, I think that Doctor Who maximised
its ratings potential with doctors like David Tennant and Matt
Smith.
And I think there was a general public audience which were
receptive to them and liked that iteration of Doctor Who.
And you still get that this season.
You get a bit of a kind of a, you know, people are loyal to it.
And so they do watch the season.
But eventually, by next season, come to the inclusion that's not
actually a show that they're interested in.
And while I don't think that is a good show or a bad show.
I just think there's 2 or 3000000 people who watch the show
because they like a David Tennant style doctor.
I think too, we underestimate the importance of RTD in all of this
and it's been a few years since he left, obviously for us at this
point, but if you look at what's happening right now and just the
amount of buzz that the show is generating, even though it's not
actually on, I think Russell is supremely good at getting the show
talked about.
Do you remember it was absolutely baffling that our stupid show
could possibly be the biggest thing on television that it's being
talked about by everyone.
There's major news stories.
Doctor Who was always kind of good at getting in the tabloids and
stuff like that.
And, you know, like the news would report when a new person was
you know, evening television news would report when a new person
was cast as the doctor and stuff.
But I mean, Russell just sort of turned that up to 11.
It was incredible.
Like it was a very strange thing.
And neither of his successes has been anywhere near as good at
making that happen.
I mean, Doctor Who's only been water cooler, generally speaking, 3
times in its life.
So originally with the Daleks and then maybe the Hinchcliffe era
and then the Russell T. Davies years.
And that was putting the cart.
Otherwise, it was putting the cart before the horse.
So Doctor Who's always been good at drumming up publicity, but I
think that is then given to a fairly passive audience and
readership, whereas during those 3 eras, especially during the
late David Tennant era, it was actually coming from the people who
were watching.
People were genuinely interested and hungry for more and more.
And so the show was everywhere.
But also, I think, I mean, it's not just RTDs, you know, PR
abilities.
It's also the fact that his style of program was lighter and
fluffier, much more disposable.
People could just sit down on a Saturday evening and watch it and
have fun and enjoy it and that was it.
Whereas I think, and I think with the Matt Smith era, you've got, I
think you've got, you know, much better scripts and stories and
it's much more interesting, but I think the magnetism of Matt
Smith and the whole river song thing, I think, also helps to carry
that through.
I think by the time when you get this far, and the stories are
getting more esoteric and a bit stranger and some of them aren't
really working.
And I think that's also probably...
People love.
And the doctor himself is like, although it's odd because Peter
Capaldi is a very known quantity.
So that's a bit surprised.
And he is kind of, they're definitely channelling Malcolm Tucker
at times.
So they are delivering the doctor that I think people were
expecting out of Peter Capaldi.
But I just think overall the scripts, the stories are all getting
a bit too often they're just failing in some way.
And I think that also doesn't help.
Oh, they're too confusing.
What the hell's that?
I don't understand and that's ridiculous and so on.
And too twisty, and not in a kind of a timey, whimey Matt Smith's
era kind of way either.
Do you think it's time for Stephen to leave?
Like, this is his 4th season?
Absolutely. absolutely absolutely.
I think much I love. think it's time?
I don't think it's time for Stephen to leave.
I think this is a much more successful season on balance than
either 6 or 7 because it's got a really interesting idea powering
it and somebody we haven't really talked about.
We talked about lesser episodes.
There's a bunch, 6 or 7 of really great episodes in there.
You know, things like listen, mummy, flatline, dark water, deep
breath's pretty good, time heist.
I really like.
It's a series which is still hitting high, I think.
Time Heist is one of the ones for me that is just so surprising.
Like I really love it.
I mean, I also put put Sherwood in that group because I think it's
just so funny.
It's probably fun.
I really adore it.
I think there are as good episodes as any other season as this, but
this is, you know, after series five.
This is a great series and I think it's criminally underrated, but
there's so much that comes to the forefront, like with
imperfections that you kind of think, oh, is it actually, like, am
I a good doctor?
Is this a good season?
Is this a good question, yeah.
I think it is.
Look, yeah, yeah, well, I don't know.
I mean, I think there's much to recommend it, as you're saying.
There are some great episodes in there.
I think listen for me is the only one that gets to the real
heights.
I think, and I love Time Heist as well.
I think all of the others you rattled off are...
Good is, it's kind of, to put it in your palons, kind of todd 7
out of 10.
Like, it's kind of like, yes, they're perfectly fine.
I enjoyed them, but I'm not for some reason, I'm not being drawn
into them like I was by so many episodes in series 5, 6, and 7.
And I know that 6 and 7 give.
Yeah, no, see, I think there's some great stuff in it.
There are some also stuff that sort of annoyed me.
I do like it.
I think it's good.
As I said, good lowercase G, good. not outstanding.
And I think there's many more outstanding.
And I think there are those too many episodes which do drag the
whole thing down.
Again, I think Mummy, I think is fine.
I'm just not engaged with it, but, you know, and then there are
the other episodes which we've already spent too much time on
which are definitely the sort of the weaker ones and they really
do let it down.
And I know people don't like things like nightmare in silver that
much.
And I know people don't like things like the gang is two-parter.
But I still prefer...
I'm much more drawn into the gangers two-parter than I am to about
half of this season.
So that kind of shows where I am in terms of the relative levels
of the year is.
I'm just saying Stephen Moffat should have gone and, you know, J
and T must go now.
I'm still sort of in that zone, partly because I think a producer
slash showrunner should only cast one doctor.
Now, I know we had Christopher Eccleston, but that was just a kind
of a, obviously like a prologue to the actual run, which was the
David Tennant run for ITD.
And likewise, with JNT, he starts to, you know, obviously lose the
plot somewhat.
I think the showrunner or producer has put their all into the
direction of the show when they cast a doctor.
And then when they need to do that again, I think that's when they
sort of go, okay, now we've done plan A. Let's do plan B now.
And plan B is going to be different to plan A. And I think with
the RTD era, as I understood it, well, didn't he originally, were
they originally talking to Tennant in the 1st instance?
They're always interested in casting David Tennant, but they
needed a name to bring it back.
Exactly.
So I wonder whether with the RTD era, they do plan B before they
then do plan A. It's interesting, but also, I mean, you can see it
in the, what you were saying about kind of, you know, what do you
do when you're then casting another doctor.
You know, you have to come up with a completely different
approach.
And you can see it in deep breath and the 11th hour.
The 11th hour is such an immaculate opening episode for a doctor.
It's spectacular.
Yeah wonderful.
Whereas deep breath is a good episode, but doesn't necessarily do
anything very different or bring in something.
But I will say, I will say that I would rail against the idea that
Moffat stayed too long. because I think that is undermined by the
facts because from my perspective, his 1st season, series 5, this
season, series 8, and series 10, are his best seasons.
So you have a critical mass of his best work in the 2nd half of
his era.
The only trouble with the series 10 thing is that I actually think
most of the episodes in series 10 are not very good.
And what is good is the show. like we're in Bristol.
He's a professor with an office.
We have Bill, we have Nardol, and we have, you know, an incredible
finale.
I love series 10, but I actually think the individual episodes and
even the Moffat episodes are not that great.
But we have a lovely dynamic.
We have people be liked.
Yeah.
And I think...
She'll she push through that.
Yeah.
And I feel the same way about A as well.
I think 8 works really well, even separate to the question of, are
the episodes good because we've given Clara a place to live?
We've given her another character to interact with her
relationship with the doctor, you know, the idea that she's
sneaking out to go on adventures with the doctor while she has a
boyfriend at home.
All of that stuff, it plays into Moffatt's ability to write things
set in schools and things that are romantic comedies.
And so for me, I think this series is my favourite Capaldi series
for those reasons.
You've now mentioned the other arc, which is the rom-com of Danny
and Clara, which I hadn't really picked up on the 1st time through
and this time it was actually a joy to watch.
And I think if you buy their relationship and you think they've
got chemistry, then you're going to really like that aspect.
And if you don't, then obviously that's problematic as a viewer.
They're both very attractive as well Yeah, I've had date switcher
and trap trauma.
No, maybe.
I haven't had dates we shouldn't talk to astronauts.
I've just been on dates with aliens.
Speaking of which, it's time for a stock Marriott void.
So, Nathan.
Perkins, Professor Morehouse or Santa?
I would avoid Perkins.
I'm not quite sure why he's got a kind of he's got a sort of
snarky thing going, which I don't really like.
And I know he's a massive Doctor Who fan.
He's a big deal in the UK, but he just seemed a bit saki to me.
Professor Morehouse.
I would, I'd snog Professor Morehouse.
He's a good looking man.
He's still good looking, perhaps even more good looking than he
was in the 80s when he appeared in the King's Demons.
And after you talked to him, he could say, come, sir.
Dispatch.
And then obviously I would marry Santa because there's, you know
like a big house in it for me with a lots of presents.
Yeah, yeah, a pole, stripy pole, the whole...
Yeah, let's not.
So yes.
Yeah.
And plus Nick Frost, he's lovely, you know, and I think a
gentleman likes having something that he can really sort of grab
on too.
Excellent.
So I'm going to go with another one.
Peter, it's not Mario Boyd.
Cy, Dr. Chang, Robin Hood.
Okay, um, I would absolutely marry Si so that then you could um
Snog and other things with him every day.
I think I would avoid what were the other two?
Dr. Chang and Robin Hood.
I would...
Oh, actually, I think I would, I would snog Dr. Chang.
That would be amazing.
Yeah, beck and call.
Robin Hollow over weeks.
I think episodes a bunch of toss.
You know, I actually think that the guy who plays Robin Hood is a
very attractive man, but the beard is horrific.
Tom River.
Yeah, I think most beards are horrific.
Sorry.
Sorry. love Robin Hood.
Yeah, yeah.
I think he's very sweet.
All right, let's talk about some of our guest stars this year.
We talked about Michelle Gomez.
Is there anybody else for you that perhaps stands out?
Killy Hawes, is Miss Del Fox at all?
Yeah.
Who do you like?
Um, I think the guy who plays the astronaut related to Danny Pink
does a really good job of being like Samuel Anderson.
Yes.
That's true.
Well, as a sorry, nobody we all think of Samuel in the role this
year.
I think he's great.
I think he's really, really good.
I mean, yeah.
Yeah, unquestionably.
I think I think he brings a great performance.
Yeah, the more history boys we can get into the show, you know
bring it on. absolutely.
My favourite would have to be Rigsy, the guy that actually plays
Rigsy.
I think.
If you count Samuel Anderson as kind of like a part of the regular
cast for this purpose.
I also think that Chris Addison in Dark Water is really funny.
Yeah, yeah.
He is pretty good.
I think he takes it a little further than I'd like him, but I do
enjoy it.
Yeah.
He does get killed when he does take it. too far. you know, Missy
does disintegrate him then.
That's true, actually.
Yes, yes, yes.
I think he's maybe taken it too far even before then.
But anyway, he's there.
He's there.
He's there for a reason.
And he's one of those examples, and I think some of the kind of
some of the female villains we've had over the years in the new
series have been this as well, is that they kind of lean into the
over the top camp villain of often a woman or sort of like a man
who reads gay because they were so successful and they're so
memorable from the original series.
But in some respect they happen in the original series almost by
accident and just because of the production style of the time.
Whereas if you lift them out of, if you lift Miss Winters out of
robot and stick her in, or Harrison Chase out of seeds of doom and
stick them in the modern era, with proper HD and everything, they
would probably be out of place.
And I think that for me is what Chris Addison is doing.
Whereas Michelle Gomez, as Missy, is not doing that, she, for me
is sitting on the right line of over the top.
And speaking of Keeley whores.
I think I mentioned on time heist that I had not really enjoyed
Keeley Paws as a performer before that.
I'd seen her in a bunch of things where she was quite cold and
unlikeable.
But time heist, I suddenly went, okay, diva, and, you know, it led
to such amazing things as it's a sin.
Yeah, I really love her in that too.
I think Ben Miller does a great job is the sheriff of Nottingham.
Yeah, I think he's always good.
Choose the scenery bit, which I always like.
The right amount, though.
That's right.
It's great to see Sheila Reed back as grand.
Is she back or is this her?
Yep, no, she's back.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Yes.
And then, of course, we have Ingrid Oliver as Osgood, which we
mentioned she's just glorious and the wonderful, the wonderful
Gemma Redgrave, Peter.
I actually like her a bit more in this 2 partner at the end
actually.
I mean, yeah, she's all right.
She's never better than when she's flying through the air about to
splash on the ground.
Yeah, I don't know.
How generous.
I don't have anything necessarily against her.
It's just it feels like the unit personnel from the two-parter in
series 4. where you just get new.
You know, I want my unit personnel to be like the brigadier and
Benton and Yates.
So I know, you know, there might be issues with performance
whatever, but you got to know them and they felt warm and
comfortable.
Whereas none of these new unit personnel who've been introduced in
the new series.
Do anything or go anywhere.
They're utterly faceless, and she's one of them.
I think...
No, I think I think I was good.
Yeah.
I think I've got all the guys.
And I also like Captain Magumbo from a few years ago.
She was fantastic.
I think she deserved it. come back.
Yes.
Michelle Morris is the Annalise of this season.
She's the school secretary.
I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to have her also in the
caretaker, but that didn't happen.
Moffatt has a great school secretary in press gang, a really great
one who's a very memorable character.
So I'm glad to see him attempting another school secretary in
series A. All right, so here's some other questions.
What do we think about the opening titles and music now that we've
had them for a year?
Oh, the music's excruciating.
Hate them.
I'm actually looking forward to seeing the series 9 version with
the Blue Cox.
Is that what happens or did I dream that?
I don't know, but I do like the 1st half of them.
And then less so in the 2nd little spirally bit.
Yeah, terrible.
Dreadful music.
It just goes to show, and I don't want to go off on a Murray Gold
moment here.
I'm not a fan of him, not because I don't think he's a good
composer because I think he is, and I think he does do some great
music and the great, the theme of, certainly the ITD era theme and
music is fantastic.
It all suits that, but again, it comes back to like producers and
showrunners and casting doctors and stuff.
Murray Gold has already arranged the theme.
Not once, not twice, but 3 times.
And I think by the time we get to the 3rd time.
Well, allowing for the fact that some of them are just kind of
souped up bits like that that that's remixes, that that happened
in the 1st 17 years of the show, even though we had fundamentally
the same thing.
Again, he's done what his vision of the Doctor Who theme is
right?
And yes, you can ask him to do it again and it comes out okay.
But then, well, actually, I think his best one is actually the
series 7B opening theme and opening credits.
That for me is the high watermark of the entirety of the new
series.
But then by the time you get to the capacity one.
It's like, 0 God, he's really run out of ideas.
Bring in someone new to add some new flavour to the music.
Please, please.
And when that happens, I do think that the next version of the
theme that is yet to come is extremely good.
Also, the opening credits are just so generic and cheap looking.
Oh, I mean, it's a nice idea, but awful.
Yeah, it's a nice, exactly.
It a nice idea, but poorly executed, I think.
Give us some Peter Capaldi shaped time tunnel any day.
Absolutely.
Okay, speaking of Peter Capaldi, what do we think of his
performance?
Oh, I think he's astoundingly good and every bit as good as Matt
Smith, I think, as the doctor.
It's an incredible performance.
He's so watchable, so interesting.
He's funny.
He, you know, he can do everything.
I think he's amazing.
I think his best scene in isolation of the series might be the one
where Clara is threatening to destroy the TARDIS keys.
Yeah.
And he really kind of gives a lot of drama to that scene, but also
endless kindness when he when he actually tells Clara what the
situation is and that she actually wasn't out on the on the ledge
getting rid of the keys.
And I think that might be his best moment of the season.
It's really coming together by that point.
Simon.
Yeah, spectacular.
I mean, he's he's so believable.
The performance feels incredibly consistent.
Like, I don't feel like he's performing one scene one way.
And then, oh, now the script tells me to do this, so I'm going to
perform the next scene a different way.
It's all recognisably the same character and his timing is just
perfect as he delivers lines.
Is it a doctor performance that's actually just been honed in his
head for like 40 years or something?
It's like...
Exactly. become like totally... is how I'm going to do it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you can see, you can see the fan in his performance.
He knows what he's doing and not a kind of in a cod performance.
You can see that he knows the other doctors so well that he can
he's channelling Tom.
He's channelling pertwi in the main.
I think those two, but yeah, he knows what he's doing.
I didn't think that anybody could talk Matt Smith.
And so we could. didn't think.
Thank you, Peter.
I didn't think Matt Smith would be superseded by someone else as
my favourite doctor, but by the end of this season and certainly
with last Christmas, that's where I'm at.
So quickly, yeah, I just adore watching him and everything that he
does.
Now, Jenna Coleman.
She's pretty good this season.
I mean, I do have a lot of problems with the character of Clara.
I think they start to write the ship and once they they give her
Danny, which really brings a lot of shade to the character, I
think.
And the problem has never been Jenna.
Jenna is a good performer.
I don't think she's a very warm performer, and that has undermined
Clara occasionally where maybe things have landed in a bit of a
colder fashion than they were meant to, but I think she's
undoubtedly in the upper echelon of people who've played
companions.
It's funny, isn't it?
They make a deliberate effort in series 7 to give her children to
look after and people to look after in order to kind of warm her
up a bit, but I do think that she does have a sort of ironic
detachment or something in the way that she plays it.
I think she's remarkable.
I think there's very rarely been companion acting as good. as what
we get from Jenna at the end of Kilamoon.
For instance.
I think that's an incredible scene.
And a little bit more on the side of kind of heightened realism
than we normally get as well.
I think it's extremely well done.
I think she's really great in that scene that you mentioned, Peter
in dark water as well.
I think she's good.
I still think she is sort of, I don't know, she is very generic.
Maybe that's okay.
She isn't an audience identification figure, but I think maybe
that ship sailed and the doctor is our audience identification
figure now anyway.
So that's probably okay.
I think Danny's our audience identification this season.
Well, except that we kind of want Clara to travel with a doctor
and he doesn't.
Yeah, and yeah. we don't agree with him, do we?
No, no, no, to be the audience identification figure, yeah, you
need to be wanting to go into the Tartar to step over that
threshold.
It's that season 19 Tegan problem.
We can't really get on board with her because her wife is so
fundamentally the opposite of what we want.
Exactly.
Yeah, no, I think she's awesome.
I really love her.
But I've loved virtually all the performers in this new era.
I think they're all, you know, quality.
I mean, she's one of the most quality actors we've had as a
companion.
I mean, she goes on to be Queen Victoria, for goodness sake.
She has a real career.
But I also love, I do like the way that the character does
slightly change between the 2 doctors.
It's so it's just so wonderful to have a companion who properly
straddles 2 doctors.
It happens so rarely.
But you even don't get it much with Tegan and Nissa because
they're only just at the very end of Tom.
The only one really is some is Liz Sladen.
It's just comparable Having a proper a proper run with 2 doctors.
And Rose, of course.
Oh yeah, Rose.
I just love all the quite a moment when Jenna's reacting to stuff
in the background, especially in that last episode when she's not
the focus, it's all the doctor, Missy, and Danny, and she just
sells everything so well with looks and the big eyes.
This is one to watch from this season.
Simon.
Listen, Peter.
Time heist.
I'm thinking, listen as well.
I think, listen, is extremely good, and I will choose Flatline.
One to avoid.
In the forest of the night, in the forest of the night.
The caretaker.
Kill the moon.
One that got away.
Well, it's the same 3 episodes.
Say, same 3 episodes that keep coming up.
In fact, it's the same 3 episodes that we're the ones to watch and
the ones to avoid, really, in terms of the ones we've been talking
about.
And one that's gotten away from us all.
Like Hidden Gem.
Actually, I think Time Heist was my hidden gem, in which case I'll
change my original answer and say flatline, this one to watch.
Yeah, I actually never find myself thinking of Flatline when I
think of this series, but gosh, I enjoyed it this time.
I think it is really properly good Yeah, smart and worse.
I was actually thinking flatline as well.
Yeah, flatline is as the hidden gem for me because I had forgotten
it.
Sorry, I hadn't forgotten it.
I was aware that it was there, but I'd forgotten.
Actually, this is really, really good.
I think because so many of the episodes around it are ones that I
either am very lukewarm too or think are terrible.
And so it's the one little beacon in that back half of the season
for me, which is actually impressively properly good, not just
with a small G, but with a capital G. It's also doing the thing
the things around that point of the season, which is just pushing
Doctor Who into the realms of magic even further than sort of
other episodes do.
But because it's so strong, we don't care and most people don't
notice, I think.
And Rigsy is such a lender with a Y.
He's just such companion potential.
My episode would be time heist because I really just think it's
forgotten.
And I'll always, also include Robert of Sherwood, because I just
have to.
But Time Heist is that wonderful doctor thing.
It's the best thing in the Dog 2 canon.
It's a normal regular episode done really well.
Yeah.
I really want science able to come back.
They make such a great team with the doctor and Clara.
It's almost like we're going to jettison the Paternoster gang and
I could see them coming back, but they don't, of course.
Well, I am married to him.
I'll ask him.
Thank you.
All right.
Jenny, Jenny Laird Award nominations now for the season.
Yes, I am giving a Jenny Laird award to Stephen Moffat for asking
Gareth Roberts to come back and do the same thing for the 3rd
time.
I think that the lodger is brilliant.
I think that closing time is good, but there's a very clear
trajectory outlined by both of them and when we hit the caretaker
the writer's own personality, I think, bleeds through a little bit
too much and it just ends up being horrible.
I'll go with the whole PE storyline, which I think is just, it
could have been much subtler, but it's just sledgehammered in and
it just really doesn't work.
And I also will go to the performance of Hermione Norris in Kill
the Moon that just kills that episode for me.
Oh yeah.
She's as good as that woman in 42.
I think she's better than that.
Yeah.
Captain blonde hair, red lipstick from Nightmare and Silver.
Yeah.
I would give my Jenny Lead award, I think, to whoever thought that
you would be able to mount overgrown London well in a Doctor Who
episode rather than just going into the New Forest and erecting
the base of Nelson's column and thinking that that was going to
look fine.
I'll just expand on Todd's award there.
I'd agree with that.
But if I can sort of expand it, not just the sort of the PE thing
the way Capaldi treats Danny.
It's just also the whole thing that what are they really trying to
do here with the military thing?
I know Doctor Who's always had a certain anti-establishment thing
which, you know, was particularly prevalent in the Pertwhe era.
You know, the pert, we always made fun and teased the brigadier
and basically our typical of the military mind and all that sort
of stuff.
And, you know, all the military...
But was also extremely happy when the brigadier would show up and
shoot an Ogron for him.
For example, yes, exactly.
And I think they've allowed going kind of back to Nathan to what
you sort of are mentioning about Gareth Roberts.
I think this is actually something where I think the writers
perhaps their prejudices are showing in the scripts in a way that
I think is not properly thought through, if you know what I mean.
Like it's kind of I can I can see what they were trying to do, but
it's so mishandled that it's a puzzling creative choice.
Except, though, that in death in heaven, we come down on the side
of the doctor being wrong about that all the way through.
And Danny demonstrates that the doctor has been wrong to have this
attitude to soldiers.
And then I actually, in our death in heaven episode, have things
to say about that as a creative choice.
I don't know if that payoff is worth it because then you've got an
entire season with the doctor dissing daddy, which is just a tone
deaf in so many weird ways for a payoff that's not really worth
it.
Yeah, yeah. that's right Yeah, it's so tied up in that whole, the
Iraq and Afghanistan thing, that it's, which, as I think I said in
the, in the Darkwater episode, the Doctor Who is not the Forum to
deal with these issues, head on, you do that through allegory and
and, and, and, all that sort of stuff.
Yeah, the Savine.
But yeah, yeah, yeah, the Slovene, et cetera.
You know, you don't do it sort of front on, echoing what Peter
said.
I think the payoff, it may be a payoff.
There may be a thing that the doctor comes down and says, okay
well, yes, you're right. the military have their uses.
But it's just, it's just wrong for it to be constantly through the
season all the time, week in week, especially because most members
of the general audience are not going to be watching every
episode.
And it's like the reaction that we had to Vietnam.
Like, you know, all the soldiers came back from Vietnam, in
America and Australia, and public attitudes turned against the
war.
And so for a while, Vietnam veterans were appallingly treated.
Now, I don't know whether that's really happened.
I don't get the sense, though, that that's happened with Iraq and
Afghanistan veterans, but it certainly happened with Vietnam
veterans.
And then we learned in the 80s that that was a terrible way to
treat the soldiers who had gone there, the men and women who'd
served in these places, because it wasn't their fault that they
were sent there.
And I think that's where that's where the fundamental error is
made.
And that also comes down to, you know, Danny having killed that
child we find out about in dark water.
It's just a bit too close to reality.
I do find it a bit tasteless, the entire approach taken there.
And it kind of, even though, even though they're not exactly the
same thing.
Once you reach the end of the season, you have the cyber brigadier
for good or for bad, if people think that's a good idea or a bad
idea.
I don't think it's a good idea.
It's also tasteless.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's the problem.
And it's the brigadier, the brigadier thing is tasty.
In fact, maybe the whole thing is then summarised by, I think, the
most puzzling creative choice is to have the brigadier come back
as a sideman. something that I struggle to get over and I'm very
unhappy about.
It's so bafflingly weird, isn't it?
Because the story has literally everyone who's died, comes back as
a cyberman and of course it's Doctor Who say that will never be
mentioned again, even though it is sort of sort of giant and
massive and stuff.
And I don't want Doctor Who to rein it back in because it's doing
something that's too big and too ridiculous, particularly since
you know, there were a lot of sleepy English villagers invaded by
aliens in a way that had no impact on anyone more than kind of 5
miles away.
So it's nice to see Doctor Who attempt to be, you know.
I don't want to say don't go big.
Yes, I will always like trying.
I will always like, let's have an idea.
Let's go for it.
But I think I think the problem where with the showrunner model
where the effectively the producer and the writer, headwriter, are
the same person, is that you don't really have someone there with
the power to say, can we just think that through a little bit
before we?
Not a good idea.
Exactly.
It's basically that old JNT thing saying, not at 735.
Do you know what I mean?
It's someone's got to be there to say, oh, yes, absolutely.
Think big, do things you've never done before.
Let's explore the possible, but have just someone needs to say
every now and again say, just wait.
Stop.
Julie Gardner will be back quite soon.
It's going to be okay.
Okay.
I don't know whether she did that.
All right, our Bonnie Langford Award for Startling Discovery.
I'm going to go with Jamie Matheson, the writer of Mummy and
Flatline, who I think is brilliant. and Rachel Tellalay. who
directs the final 2 parter and she will do so for a few years to
come.
I think they're both great and the whole Clara having a
character.
I'm going to go for Courtney.
I think she's really terrific.
And more like that, please.
I'll go for Samuel Anderson because I think he's really good in
the role.
Yeah, hot.
Oh, good.
Yeah, good.
I'm going to go for Rigsey then because I think, like Courtney, I
think he feels an important and it's a shame that we only get to
see him once more.
Is that it?
Is it just the one small?
Yeah.
He would have been nice to appeared a couple more times.
Not too many, just a couple more.
I'm glad you mentioned Courtney.
She certainly the best of the children actors this year, and
that's all I'm going to say about that, people.
So...
That's okay.
Oh, Artie, but isn't he last year?
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I'm just, they managed to put most of them all into that
one episode.
So, you know, thank God.
All right, now, finally, series nine.
Looking forward looking to the future.
Where does it sit with you?
So, I'm merely a person here that was recording flights through
entirety when season 9 came out.
And so as a result, because we were doing the black and white era
and I was having to watch something like 30 episodes of Doctor Who
a month or whatever, I watched series 9 once.
Like you, Simon, I watched series 9 once, then I watched it when I
got the Blu-ray and then I've never really gone back to it.
I did once trying to do it again and didn't get past the, I was
going to say the magician's nephew, but I mean the magician's
apprentice.
And I actually enjoyed the magician's apprentice.
I think it's really good, but somehow I just found myself not
going any further.
So for me, this is the season of Doctor Who that I'm least
familiar with and I'm really looking forward to finding out what
the hell I think about it.
Yeah, so I would agree with that, Nathan.
I've only seen it once.
I think the takeaway was that it was startlingly dreary.
I want to know if I'm wrong in that.
Yeah, me too.
I remember as being dreary, not particularly good.
There are some great moments like, I think, and I can't, I get, I
get the titles around the wrong way, but heaven sent.
Heaven's sense is the one.
Heaven Sense is the 1st one where he's just Capaldi. which is, I
think, one of the best episodes ever. absolutely 100%.
I like the opening to part and more for Missy and particularly her
relationship with Clara, which I think is the perfect echo of the
frontier and space relationship with Delgado and Katie with
believe it or not, Miss Grant, I've come to take you away from all
this.
And there's just so many moments like that. is so great.
But as a whole, I'm going to push Joe into a pit.
No, I know.
But Jet Diggy is so funny.
That is so funny.
To test how deep it was, right?
Yes, exactly.
But I do, that's a highlight, but as a whole, I'm remembering that
this is where I really start to lose interest in the series and I
start to look at my watch and go, God, how much more of this
episode is there, with a few exceptions, as I've mentioned.
And I'm curious to know whether I'll have the same reaction when I
watch it through again.
I worry that I will.
Yes, it feels like a series, I think.
And again, I may be proved wrong, that is marking time.
It's, it's a series that has reached, it's, the show has reached
its ninth season and you think, where are you going with this?
It feels like it doesn't have proper forward momentum, but we'll
see.
And I guess for me, it's, has Clara stayed too long?
Do all these two-parters work.
I adore the flood 2 parter, and I really like the missy stuff in
the Dalek 2 parter, and obviously heaven sent, and the high drama
of sleep no more, and the raven, but the other episodes, we'll
see.
Well, B, sir, that's all we have time for for now.
We'll be back in a few weeks to finally put some important arcs to
bed in last Christmas.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety
com, where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter
and Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger
Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.
Until next time, remember you can't really tell if something's an
addiction till you try and give it up.
Incidentally, stay tuned for news about our 2 new Doctor Who
projects later this year and in early 2024.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
See you soon.
Good night.
Bye bye.
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan
Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and Simon Moore.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, New Life Crisis, was recorded on the 18th of June
2023 and released on the 9th of July.
Once again, thank you to everyone who's listened to our nonsense
so far this year, and particular thanks to those of you who've
contacted us online.
We'll be back with the Christmas special on the 25th of July and
our series 9 coverage. happen later in the year.
We'll see you then.
So we did last Christmas last night.
And we observed that the arc doesn't really make any sense without
last Christmas, but this is actually going out before last
Christmas.
Last Christmas, it's not part of this retrospective.
Yep.
But we will because I haven't talked about that.
That's the one I haven't watched yet, so that'll work.
Yeah, yeah.
No that's fine.
So I can't talk about the season cohesively without...
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, we'll say that they, you know, yeah, all this stuff. fixes
itself.
All right, I have a very long sentence, which should not be
delivered without proper medical jaw and lung supervision.
Here goes.
Oh, Nathan Todd, Peter.
And I'll try and leave a gap this time.
Yes, you will to go first.
Yeah, no, you can tell me to go first.
You go before me time.
No, no, no.
The remote the remote voice should be last.
It doesn't matter.
You're on different tracks.
You can say it simultaneously and I'll be able to fix it.
But you can still get angry if you feel like it. do that.
Okay.
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through entirety.