Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast that never escaped the Matrix back in
December 1986.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Max.
I'm Peter.
Well, the moon's an egg.
The word for world is forest, and mere weeks ago, our sadly Miss
Great Aunt Dulcie was advancing on us menacingly with a cyber gun
but is Santa really real now?
Let's find out, as we discuss, last Christmas.
We talked a little bit, I think, last time about Santa's magical
powers to intervene in the closing credits, and I guess this
episode has, unlike most Christmas specials, a proper job to do in
the story of the program.
Well, I think it's interesting because it's the 1st instance of
Christmas special being sort of a denouement to a season in a way
obviously because of its broadcast, like it's right after series
eight.
It's only like a few weeks after.
And I think it's interesting because of the way that death in
heaven ends and it ends in this quite downbeat fashion.
I mean, obviously we're used to Russell T. Davis cliffhanger
endings that kind of take away some of the emotional heft that
you're left with.
But I think in series 8, you're sort of really sitting with that
at the end.
As we come into last Christmas, there is this sense that this
feels like kind of the proper ending to series 8 in a certain
way.
Yeah.
And it does feel of a piece with series 8 because it has those
same dark qualities that the series did.
I don't think we've seen a Christmas special this dark before.
Yeah.
Yeah, it really struck me that it is kind of a remake of alien.
I mean, it's even in the in dialogue.
Have we ever had an instance where someone has written down their
list of homages and then shown it to us on speaker.
Forgive day.
So I like dad coming to visit.
Is that another sly reference?
Capaldi's age.
Oh yeah, because he's your space dad.
I do love how this wears its movie influences on its sleeve
because, you know, we had that with Voyage of the Dan, which is
very clearly a night to remember and the Poseidon adventure and
all these kind of films.
And I think, though, with Alien, if you're going to do that with a
science fiction thing, there is a greater chance that the people
at home have seen it and that someone has already said, oh, it's
kind of like a face hugger.
But I mean, Moffatt does 2 things, doesn't he?
He gets a really brilliant line out of it with Capaldi saying that
we're racist and that's why aliens keep invading us all the time.
But he also kind of gets to demonstrate why Doctor Who is better
than that kind of science fiction because these aren't just sort
of monsters that lay eggs in your stomach or anything like that.
They're monsters that keep you in a dream state.
And so they actually have a direct effect on how the narrative
goes because we're being told this whole thing inside the dreams
and it's a dream state that's being created by the dream crabs.
So in a way, you know, Moffat has created a conceptual monster
that's a little bit more interesting than what a normal science
fiction show would do.
Never done that before, has it?
No, that's right.
They're all just men in rubber suits.
It's true, isn't it?
Because I think there's an explicit parallel being set up between
having Santa, who is another kind of fantastic hero, like the
doctor is, and the dream crabs, which just kind of sit there
sponging off imagination rubbed and providing it.
And so I wondered if they were an analogue for us at home on
Christmas.
Well, it's nice as well because there is like, this isn't
necessarily, I think, as explicit as alien or inception, but
there's a lovely like parallel with the dream crabs to like the
nightmare before Christmas and, you know, like it sort of feels
quite nice.
It feels like just it makes sense that these are creatures that
live off dreams and that kind of stuff, particularly combined with
this Christmas setting.
And I think the effect of that is that the whole thing feels
really Christmassy.
I mean, obviously we're at the we're at the North Pole.
South Pole?
No, we are at the North Pole, yeah.
And obviously we've got some...
It'll take another 3 years to get to the south.
But like, I think it all contributes to a mood that is really
evocative, which is, I think, why it works.
A lot of why it works as well as it does, is that it all feels
just like, even with its sort of madcap, different influences.
Like it feels quite cohesive, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it is Christmassy in a way that the others haven't
been.
I mean, this is his 5th Christmas special.
And it's the 10th Christmas special, right?
And, you know, there will come a time where the showrunner says
actually, we've got no ideas left for Christmas and we can't
really be doing that anymore.
But I think this.
The 10th one ever is perhaps the most Christmassy of them all.
And I think mostly it's because of Santa.
So there's a real attempt because this episode has to rehabilitate
the doctor and it kind of has to solve the problems left in
Clara's life by series 8.
And there's the scene at the end where the doctor gets to ride a
sleigh in his 1st Christmas special.
And Matt Smith got to do that in his 1st Christmas special.
But Matt Smith sleigh was drawn by a shark, a flying shark, which
that's so fantastic and maybe one of the best things ever.
But this is actually Santa Slay.
Like this is a much Christmassier version of Matt Smith's 1st
Christmas special.
Like, this is as Christmas as I think it's possible to get.
There's also like there's something about Peter Capoldi's doctor
as well that works at Christmas.
Like, it's just, it's the, when Shona calls him the skeleton man.
Like, like, there's, like, something about...
Yeah, him and the hoodie.
I just I love the hoodie as well, by the way.
I'm not sure if this is the 1st hoodie.
Yeah, it might be.
Poodie combo.
I was obsessed with Peter Capoli's outfit variation.
But there's yeah, there's something about him and being a little
grouchier, like a little surlier.
There's something that works with the sort of, you know, the grump
at Christmas just works really well.
Ghost of Christmas presents.
Yeah, I mean, he is having a ball at the end of it.
He's having a really kind of uncomplicatedly childlike moment of
joy after being a grumpy bastard all the way through.
And so that is every Christmas TV show.
Every special has that.
So he's kind of built for that, I think.
Yeah.
And, you know, his conversation with Santa about riding the sleigh
is that universal experience of being an adult but also wanting to
have fun.
It's like Santa says, do you want to ride this layer?
The doctor's like, you're either representing my dying brain or my
recovering brain.
You're not real.
And he's like, yeah, but do you want to do it anyway?
And that allows him to have, I think, his 1st unguarded moment of
happiness.
And because Capaldi's such an amazing actor.
It's when he says yippee IA that he sort of catches himself and
realises, oh my god, I'm like, I'm, as you say, it's
uncomplicated.
There's no bravado, there's no pretence.
Like, say, there is with Robin Hood back in Robot of Sherwood
where he does have a few moments where he lets his guard down and
immediately catches himself.
He actually allows himself to experience the joy fully.
And it's the beginning of turning the character into something
more layered than he has been.
Well, we said on Christmas Carol, which you're on, Max.
It's amazing. back here together, that that was the 1st time that
Matt Smith had seen his own performance go out and had known what
the reception was and had kind of seen it in totality.
He came back with a really confident performance.
I think this is the 1st time that Capaldi's doctor is fully
formed.
They've kind of shorn off rough edges.
He has seen himself that maybe it could do with a little bit of
warming up.
And so it's just here where he hits his stride, I think.
That's what I was struck with watching it most recently, was just
how this is where it starts to feel effortless, where you get that
impression of Capaldi is the doctor, where it just feels like he's
become him, like he, like there, it just, just seems to come out
of him so naturally.
And I think that is the 1st time that you really see, just in, in
kind of that projection of warmth that you get actually the whole
time, which, and it's there in series eight.
It is there, but it's like how evidently warm he is with Clara, but
then also he's starting to be warmer around supporting characters
in the story as well.
Like even though he makes that glib joke when he comes back in and
said, sorry, are these all deleted all that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I was going to point that out too, because there is a note
of regret in his voice that like, oh, I'm so sorry, I've trodden
on your begonias.
You know, it's kind of like he's kind of like, actually, that's
probably, yeah, sorry.
Anyway.
I found myself really a bit baffled by death in heaven and
concluding that it doesn't work as the end to an arc.
But obviously that's wrong. isn't it?
Because that was never intended to be the end of an arc.
And the end of the arc is here, and we end up at the end of this
episode, in the same place that we ended Matt Smith's 1st season
as well.
So our doctor is back in a way I think maybe Stephen B was hoping
for in flatline.
I think here, absolutely, undoubtedly we have the doctor back.
And I think we also, in Capaldi's other 2 Christmas specials, that
close series, The Husbands of River Song, and Twice Upon a Time
both work to address the fallout of some really quite horrific
events that happen in the respective season finale.
Dr. Mysterio obviously is an exception because it's one of those
years where the doctor decides not to do anything that year, except
for, you know, leave some school children in deadly danger after
one of them gets dismembered.
God, class is weird.
I love that we get past that point where they acknowledge that
they lie to each other within the 1st 10, 15 minutes.
Like it's not, we don't prolong it for any longer than it needs to
be like that.
It's almost instantly addressed as soon as they're in peril.
And it's obviously a way of getting out of that peril to some
extent as well.
The simplicity of that exchange where basically they both just
admit, yeah, it just drops away from them as soon as they're in
company with one another.
But I think for Clara, it drops away right the moment she's on the
TARDIS again, where she says, oh, you know, I miss that sound.
You know, she's so happy to be here.
When Santa appears on Clara's roof, that's almost identical to the
doctor appearing just by mistake.
You know, it's the same thing.
And when she says to Santa that she grew out of fairy tales, that's
when the TARDIS appears to rescue her, really.
And she's so excited to be back.
She's so happy to see him.
She wasn't expecting it.
We thought that that was all I over.
And although there is that thing that is finally explicitly
resolved when they're in peril.
She's so immediately happy to see him.
Um, you know, which is kind of what we wanted, I think.
She kind of assumes the companion role.
Simon's made a point a few episodes ago, that he doesn't like it
when companions don't travel with the doctor when the doctor just
drops in and picks them up because it doesn't feel like you've got
a cohesive team happening.
I think Clara finally feels like a companion to the 12th doctor
here, and a lot of it is because Capaldi has fine-tuned his
performance and the writing has got it, and so it allows her to be
that.
It allows her rather than creating issues between them.
It allows her just to be a companion for him.
Yeah, absolutely.
Something I find so interesting about that rooftop scene is the
visual language of it.
So you've got the sleigh in one corner and that's crashed.
And then in the other corner, if you imagine, we're sort of
looking at this like a stage and the other corner is where the
TARDIS appears, but it appears on an angle.
And something that was established for the new series in Russell's
era was if the TARDIS appears on an angle, there's something
wrong.
And I think we 1st see it in Rise of the Cybermen, and Graham
Harper, I think it was, says on the commentary, that's something
Russell and I discussed, if something's wrong with the Tatars, it
is on an angle, and it appears on an angle here.
Now it's not always true.
Like, it appears on an angle in flatline, and it's actually a
symbol of heroism, and obviously, I'm tardestop PNG as well
because they couldn't take it into the, um, into the tunnel.
But even before that, when we're arriving in Clara's house, I
didn't notice ever, before when I watched this, when we're
arriving in Clara's house, we see a stair lift. which is
foreshadowing the original ending, which we will talk about later
get to.
Yeah.
So we have Ian, who is Dan Starkey and Wolf, who is surprisingly
hot for sad as Elf, I think.
At Nathan McMullen.
Fresh off misfits.
Yes, yeah that's right.
And Nick Frost, who is the last member of the main cast of spaced
to appear for the 1st time in Doctor Who.
He's perfect, isn't he?
He's so funny.
Yeah, yeah.
So, it's so well judged.
Like, he's just like walking a fine line, the whole, the whole
time.
And he's big and he's over the top, but he's also like, I think
funniest when he's doing these like really tiny little moments
like, particularly like between the elves.
And then when he's talking to Shona.
And it says, oh, what is it?
I've got 3 words for you, my little pony.
It's so good.
He's fantastic.
Especially, love.
There are 522 million, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, children in
the world.
Obviously, I have a 2nd sledge.
Well, no, it's also that brilliant line about, you know, how do
you fit all the presents in, bigger on the inside, and the elves
give this amazing response, like, ooh, yeah, yeah.
The elves are like 2 typical British teenagers.
Like they're like Lauren and Nicky Wortley on the Catherine Tate
show.
They're just goading on...
They're just goading on whatever Bance is happening, you know what
I mean?
And I am almost 40 years old and I will never say Bance again.
I apologise.
Don't meet me come over there.
It might be a little bit controversial.
I do think that Nick Frost does a pretty good job and what a great
surname for the role.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think the episode kind of grinds to a halt with any scene
incent. with Santa.
Yeah, they go on too long and there's too much business.
And I know that that's what makes it Christmassy, but it didn't
quite feel clever enough.
There was it was a little bit obvious, the kind of puns that were
being thrown in.
I just thought it could have come alive a little bit more
controversy over.
I think that's a Christmas day thing a little bit that you're
allowed to, you're allowed to kind of pad it out and make it a bit
silly and make it like, because I felt the same watching it like
this morning where, you know, it's June.
But like to think if it was Christmas day and you were a bit
drunk.
Yeah.
Like, that's the stuff that you just don't particularly, like that
sort of becomes part, you know, it's a part of it.
And it's a kids show moment as well, which he's allowed to do.
Like he's basically got aliens where people's brains are being
dissolved by aliens and Santa and his sleigh and Rudolph and, you
know, elves and stuff.
Like, I just think that combination is so perfect and so Doctor
Who.
And I think there's a game he's playing with the audience, which
is Santa real.
Yeah.
And you can ever be too explicit about that. when you've got
kids.
Yeah, I was thinking.
So you can't be too exquisit about it in a kid's show.
But the thing is that there was always the possibility that he
would be real because the moon's an egg.
And because this season of Doctor Who has absolutely gone and done
some very, very strange and weird stuff that's well beyond the
boundaries of what many fans can cope with and well beyond the
boundaries of what the show has done before in the kind of real
world.
And because also, Moffatt compares the doctor to Santa Claus in
the 1st televised Doctor Who that he ever writes, which is that
final speech by Emma in Curse of Fatal Death, where he compares.
Yeah.
And in the 1st episode.
Is it the 1st episode?
No, but it is, it's in Father's Day, I think.
Isn't Christopher Eccleston's Dr. Santa?
Doesn't he sneak back in time and buy it?
No, no, it's Dr. Dancers.
It's Moffat.
Dr. Dancers.
It is Moffat.
There you go.
Red bike when you were 12, right?
So it's always been a thing.
And let's not forget 11th hour where Amelia is praying to Santa.
And the doctor of you.
And Santa's brought her a bike.
And a fish.
The fish have fingers.
So that's always been a really moffety thing.
And this season has at least one episode, which is about how the
doctor is a fictional hero like Robin Hood, and it makes Robin
Hood real in the world of Doctor Who in order to kind of make that
point.
So there's just a possibility that there's a real Santa.
I mean, remember, Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe has actual
Santa comes along and that doesn't end up happening in the Doctor
the Widow and the Wardrobe, but he's just teaching on the edge of
being part of the Doctor Who world.
And so having him explain to Shona how he can be real, you know, if
he feeds the magic carrots, and that's how they can fly, you
know.
And the doctor is being Santa and the doctor, the widow and the
wardrobe.
The caretaker who's providing all of those brilliant things for
the kids who've come for Christmas.
Yeah.
I was struck this time by how clever Moffat is in terms of like
threading that needle a lot of the time where it's sort of this
like playfulness where, particularly because it's a kid's show, as
you were saying.
I was a bit older when I was watching this, but if you were like 7
or 8 watching this, maybe, like you would be, you would be
invested in what your favourite show was about to say about this
guy that was meant to, you know, that delivered you presents the
previous night.
You know, like, I think he's being like, it's a really clever
balance that he strikes, particularly because we get to that
endpoint with the sleigh ride that we talked about before.
I think that sort of Moffat coming to land on, No, of course
Santa's real, the doctor's real, and Santa's real.
And it was me hoping all along just that Santa's a robot.
In fact, it does the thing, and I haven't watched this or hadn't
watched this for a while until I watched it yesterday, but I do
remember that as we're looking out the window, I said to myself
there has to be some sign that Santa is still here.
And there is, of course, there's the tangerine, which nobody
likes.
The last shot has the tangerine and the sound of sleigh bells.
And obviously that's because Santa's real in our real world.
Or, of course, because it's Moffat.
It's a sign that they never wake up.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, that's the inception dial. tangerine in the window.
Talking about that.
People who complain about the obviousness of Santa at Christmas
and the obviousness of what Moffat is plundering and the rest of
the story, you know, the thing and Alien and Miracle on 34th
Street, all those things are listed on Shona's list.
If you're going to do a Christmas Day special.
I think going back to what you were saying earlier, it does need
to be a little bit more obvious.
Yeah, anything else.
Yeah, Russell and Stephen, both sort of talk about this when they
talk about Christmas specials, and their sort of consensus is
there are a lot of people who only watch Doctor Who at Christmas
because they're with the family.
So having the Danny story come back in this, there is enough
information in this to make sense of it.
And Moffat has actually responded to that.
He was asked by some by some interviewer, if he, you know, felt
ashamed at plundering these things so obviously, you know, some
sort of catty question.
And he responded by saying, did alien apologise for ripping off
the arc in space?
Absolutely.
And you know, there's also elements of the thing in this
especially when the flares at the end, but the thing rips off the
thing from another world, which ripped off other horror and sci-fi
stories before it, you know.
Yeah, seeds of doing.
Very good episode of the X-Files, you remember?
I think we should only really complain about ripoffs.
If it's not doing something well or new.
And I think this does enough new things with its ingredients.
One thing that I think might be a reference that is sort of
overlooked is the Nightmare on Elm Street series, which Rachel
Tellala worked on.
Now, of course, Rachel doesn't direct this.
Paul Wimshurst, I think.
Yeah, doing an awesome job.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So Rachel directs Freddie's dead.
The final nightmare, and she is also a producer on Nightmare on
Elm Street 3 and 4.
And in Nightmare on Elm Street 3, uh, character is pulled through
a television, as happens to uh, one of the Trouton boys in this
one.
Those are those standard kind of horror tropes like poltergeists
and stuff like that.
If you're going to do something scary at Christmas. all the way.
It's the moment to where the whole kind of attempt of the dream
crabs to create a plausible reality breaks down and it's just like
oh, you know, forget it will just pull the guy into a television.
They all know it's fake.
Let's do that.
And that does kill him.
Like he is actually dead.
We don't see professor Albert waking up with the others.
There's a really like, not funny, but I kind of laughed at Peter
Capaldi's line or the 12th top this line of us, somewhere he's
woken up dead.
Yeah.
Really, like, perfect.
And what you were saying, Brendan, about, you know, if you're
going to rip off, do it well.
No one, I think, would argue that Stephen Mothad doesn't take this
material and do really good things with it.
He probably cleverer than the people who wrote the archetypal
material.
And so it's filled with those clever moffity things.
The non-erasing blackboard and the fact that people just keep
saying it's a long story because they don't actually have the
backstory.
Yeah, because it's not real.
It's not a real situation.
And the brilliant moment where he tricks Clara into saying it's a
long story.
It's so good.
And she is really good there.
She is.
I mean, that's like another thing with in this episode that I
adored was just being reminded of how fantastic Jenna Coleman is.
And particularly the scene, which I guess will come to, but the
scene that's Clara's sort of dream, or her nightmare, I suppose
her nightmare or dream, where the doctor sort of like intrudes in
on it.
And when he's trying to like convince her that this isn't real.
And Jenna in that in that exchange is just like heartbreaking and
she's just doing stuff with her eyes basically, but it's just like
inflating them.
Yeah, inflating them.
How does he do it?
That confirmed for me, even though I've had misgivings about Clara
on and off, that the problem has never been Jana.
No. no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's extraordinary.
Yeah.
I mean, as we are recording, it's been announced this week that
Bonnie Langford is going to appear in series 14.
And I think we've said on the podcast before, there are
similarities between Jenna and Bonnie in that.
They both have these amazing careers.
And also in Doctor Who, they weren't necessarily always given the
best material, especially sort of early Clara.
But it's kind of weird because this is, I think, the 1st time that
Jenna Coleman has decided, No, I'd like to stay on longer and
Stephen Moffatt's like, I'm not going to let you go because you're
brilliant.
And so starts giving her more material that allows her to really
get her teeth into it.
And even going back to that scene you were talking about earlier
Max, where they admit they were lying to each other.
It's such an excellent scene which other actors may have done in a
more overstated way.
And that's not necessarily a criticism of how anyone else might
have done it.
There's certainly a place for that.
But Peter and Jenna instead decide to play it all on their faces
without becoming incredibly overwrought in the voices.
I think possibly part of the reason that Jenna becomes so good as
Clara is because she and Peter Capaldi's acting styles just melds
so well together.
Not that she was bad with Matt Smith, but just she's on another
level with Capaldi.
And I think also it is just the incredible material that she's
getting here.
So that horror movie sequence in that dream within a dream is
great.
It's full of hilarious Moffatt dialogue.
It's properly funny and it's properly heartbreaking as well.
I was saying to you guys before we started recording that I'd
forgotten how affecting some parts of this episode are.
And particularly, I think if you, if just coming off series 8 as
well, so that obviously the, the loss that Clara has suffered in
in losing Danny and kind of the awfulness in the way that he was
taken from her life, you really like feel the unfairness on
Clara's part of why shouldn't I be allowed to live in this, in
this house with this person that I love?
And like, I think Jenna is fantastic.
Peter's fantastic, but Samuel in that scene is so good.
Danny pink in red..
He's playing it quite differently because it is the 1st time that
we have seen him not sort of concerned or so he's just a little
bit goofier and a little bit sillier.
And I guess initially because he's a figment, you know, who's
created by Clara's mind as part of the dream.
But I think, is that how she sees him?
No.
Fluffier.
Well, maybe, but it's also Christmas and he's being silly and
stuff.
But I think he becomes Danny, and it is explicit, isn't it?
I'm going to save you again, and this is how I'm going to do it.
And that thing about 5 minutes, you know, like, I want my 5
minutes.
You're going to think about me and miss me for 5 minutes properly
and then you're going to get on with your life.
And just we had that thing about grief in dark water at the
beginning of dark water.
Next year, we'll have a thing about grief, which is sort of
operatic and enormous and kind of overblown.
This is a love, wonderful, you know, one of the best things. the
show ever does.
But, yeah, not a criticism.
I just wanted to touch it.
I wanted to check.
But this is a sweet, you know, and very real, you know, proper
thing about what grief is like.
I just thought it was so good.
And a central metaphor as well, the conceit of the last every
Christmas is last.
Yeah, which I did read Xander's review.
And she said, it is missing a definite article, but...
I thought it was just the song.
I thought it was just the, I think that's part of it.
Well, they don't even play last Christmas.
No.
Mandela effects.
I thought they did.
Yeah, probably not. song, which, by the way, is a bit cringy.
Shona.
I absolutely...
Love it.
Well, because part of the thing is too, that you don't quite know
what's going on.
And because the space-based people are so generic, like they're so
completely and utterly generic, and it is the usual kind of space
based people in an RTD or a Moffat era show.
You know, they're sort of different ages, ethnically diverse and
so on.
But the whole time you're they're going, what the hell is
happening with Shona?
Like, what is she?
Do you know what just struck me actually when you were talking
about all of that and kind of, you know, the meditation on grief
that this is what Star Trek Generations was aiming for and misses
in its latter stages in the Nexus?
Because Picard is having a meditation on grief because he's lost
his family and his nephew.
And it's kind of you're like, you go into that dream world and
you're drawn into it and it's like, do you just stay in the
happiness, like Clara, the opportunity to?
And it doesn't land with half as much impact as this does.
Yeah.
No, well, that's because of the ugly, ugly children that Picard
imagines that he has when he's in the nexus.
Brady Bunch.
Thank you for the dolly, Papa.
And and the absurd, the absurd decision to have someone a little
bit, but not entirely unlike Beverly.
It's like just have just have gates.
She's done through this film anyway, except smile at Geordie and
be called Ugly by some Klingons.
Yeah, she does get pushed.
If James was here, he would say, when are we doing the Star Trek
generations podcast?
I've done it already.
Actually, Nathan, fun fact about that stunt.
That's actually Patricia Tallman, whose most famous for playing
Lita Alexander in Babylon 5.
Oh my goodness.
I've never heard of that.
There you go.
It's okay.
Yeah.
Can we talk about the dream crabs?
Yeah.
So, what do we think?
I think they're a lovely puppet.
Because there's a bit where one of them's in the and I love the
one in the glass, yeah.
Yeah, I'm doing the motion now, listener, because this is the
perfect thing for podcasting.
But, you know, if at home you hold up your own hand and just sort
of gently undulate your fingers, you can achieve the desired
effect.
Yeah, no, I think they're a wonderful practical effect.
And we know how hard they are to get right.
Do you remember the dream Beetle from turn left.
Backpack.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, the thing is that they appear to have a mouth.
You know, there's that thing about how they can't see or hear.
So it's a completely featureless thing apart from a mouth and then
they advance on you and open the mouth.
Like I think that works incredibly well.
And I have to say that the fact that the sleepers were the 4 of
them.
I can't remember, but I doubt that I realised that until the
characters themselves did.
Yeah, I think I'd forgotten it and this time it's like, you know
yeah, it really works.
I was fooled at the time.
They're quite scary as well.
That little set piece with Clara being menaced.
Yeah, that is scary.
Play mute.
Yeah, yeah.
She shoots a proper scream.
Really screams and she does it so well. really good.
She belts out and Moffat's like, come back for another suit.
I can't believe we haven't done this. that's right.
I love the ice cream pain description of when they're under and
they it's the thing of like that pain getting sharper.
It's such a gross image of them eating, eating.
Yeah, yeah.
That was done.
Have you ever seen Star Trek, the Next Generation's schisms?
No.
Yes.
Because that is exactly the same thing.
They keep coming in with these mysterious aches and pains.
They kind of have, you know, this pain.
I think it might be Geordie, has a pain in his temple.
And it turns out he's having something horrible drilled into it.
And also in Star Trek, you have Phantasms where data is having
nightmares and one of the nightmares has Beverly drinking Riker's
brain with a straw.
Yes, that's right. would explain a lot.
Yeah, it's a cellulopeptide cake.
Yeah.
Let's talk about the next generation.
Can we talk about the guest cast?
Yeah.
So we have Michael Troughton for a start and another professor.
He actually sounds exactly like his father when he's giving Shona
the instructions at the very beginning.
Now she just sounds like it.
Yes, it absolutely sounds like it.
Sounds really like his brother in...
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the thing.
It becomes his own voice when Shona's like he was feeling up my
knee.
I thought it was comforting.
That's where the doctorness goes.
And I wonder if it's conscious choice on his part.
Because he is playing the 2nd doctor now for Big Finish, Michael
Troughton.
And he does it differently to how David does it because David does
it too, but it's very good, but his own voice is quite different
from his dad's.
So I think I think it may be a conscious choice.
Yes, I'm very comforting and da da da da.
But also, yes, I was touching your knee.
Yes.
Exactly like the 2nd doctor.
Yeah, yeah.
Two families.
But again, like the, you know, the revelation that they're not
really sort of space people, you know, on a space base.
Well, we don't know what he actually is because he...
He wakes up dead, but Ashley's, you know, an account executive for
a perfume company.
I think she's magnificent.
There's actually one.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Bellows is the sexy Bellows.
See, I was getting vibes of what's her face from the gangers 2
parter.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, well, you know, I thought she was good.
But it was very clearly like we're assembling these people from
you know, like Ashley's doing a bit of a sort of, you know
Vannette Robinson from 42.
You know, we're just picking these people from the previous space
based people.
But they're all really terrible at it.
Yeah.
Well, the thing is, at one point, Bellows, who is the older woman
who Capaldi calls sexy.
At one point when the dream crabs are trying to come through the
door.
She is the one hitting the dream crabs back with the butt of her
rifle.
Like she is Ripley in this because the thing to remember about
Ripley is she's not an action heroine to begin with.
She becomes that as the series goes on, but she's the navigator, I
believe, of the Nostromo.
You know, with some combat training, but the whole point is she's
meant to be an ordinary intelligent person and you get that with
Burroughs as well.
Who's, yeah, the one who's ready to whack a dream crap in the
face.
And they're kind of melancholy those scenes where the characters
are waking up because even though they've been saved and all of
that.
This is an adventure, which is probably the adventure of their
lifetime, and they're never going to have, they've just gone back
to their boring lives.
It's all, you know, it's maybe sort of what Christmas day is as
well.
Together you have fun and then boxing day is always a letdown.
But I think Shona actually does get a good ending.
She does. what she's forgiving Dave for.
Well, but that's nice.
I thought that that was really good, that, and she ticks it.
Like I have, she's just decided to forgive him.
And we don't know anything about it.
Of course, we don't.
And, you know, it's that sort of thing where Moffatt puts all of
the influences in the actual show itself.
But she wakes up in this sort of really dismal, you know, crappy
old, flat, full of crap everywhere.
Christmas Day is basically a Game of Thrones marathon.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But she's decided to get together with someone.
Like I think it's nice.
I also, was she also, was it not necessarily that she was going to
be the next companion, but this was, I've heard that this is
Stephen Moffat kind of trialling an idea for what the companion
after Clara could be.
And I think that there was a point in time. whether or not it was
going to be the same actress playing Shona that we meet, like
again, at the start of the next season for it with a different, you
know, which could be nice because she's only got this memory of
the doctor in her dream and then, like, that could work. kind of
partners in crime.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
But obviously we end up getting Bill a few years later, which is
great.
But like, yeah.
Shona is great though.
I mean, she's superb character.
Yeah In the nightmare scene.
I loved Murray's soundtrack where it goes from like this sort of
like little idyllic string passage and then it just like rises and
rises and becomes more and more uncomfortable.
I don't know.
Like, I think Murray's work is often really great.
I understand the criticism sometimes that it's overbearing, but in
those moments, I was like, 0 my god, this is like so good.
Like that where she's wiping the chalk.
Yeah, yeah. a minute or 2 of just this music kind of souring.
Like it's the same piece of music that just sours as it goes along
and I feel it's so good.
Well, we're going to have Murray back and I think that...
And Christmas Day episodes.
Oh my gosh.
It's gonna be something. shooters first.
Yeah.
So exciting.
Another influence that just occurred to me with what you were
saying, Max, about the sort of soundtrack of the Dreamscape is
episode of Futurama called The Sting.
Yes.
Yeah, where Leila has an induced dream state.
Because I was just thinking when Clara's in her fantasy slash
nightmare, the way the doctor talks to her is to tell her exactly
what is happening to her, you know, and there's a bit towards the
end of the sting where Fryer is trying to coax Leila out of a
dream.
And he kind of has the same thing, but of course it's more comedic
because he's like, you can't just lay in bed waiting to die.
Bed sores hurt.
But what's happening is she's she's in bed and she's not waking
up.
And that is one of the most affecting episodes of Futurama.
Like, I think there's sort of 5 universally agreed episodes of
Futurama where people are like, I was in tears.
And for me in this episode, the moment I start bawling is when
daddy says he didn't save the world.
He saved Clara.
Yeah.
Yeah, the world was just collateral.
Yeah.
You know, considering that this isn't Danny Pink.
This is Clara's memory of him.
Imagine carrying that around in your head and never vocalising it
that she's like, he's dead because of me.
But then for her subconscious to turn that into something heroic.
It leads me to being incredibly disappointed next year.
But we'll get to that I have to say that I just think he's Danny
at this point because he's played by Samuel Anderson.
He's on the tally like he was in the other episodes.
And so I've just decided that it's him and that works well too
because there's a moment where, you know, both the doctor and
Danny are in some senses, imaginary things in her dream, like
they're part of this dreamscape that's induced both of them are.
And then both of them kind of agree to Danny's plan to save
Clara.
Like, the 2 of them kind of, yeah, both of them agree to do that.
And so I think he has a degree of sort of independent life there
which I think is a very Moffat thing as well.
I think so.
And I think also like the gorgeous, and I think it does now
knowing where series 9 goes, obviously, in retrospect, the ending
that we get to, which I still find really overwhelmingly like
emotive with their agreement to keep on travelling.
But it is so joyous in that moment because it does feel like Clara
sort of being given permission, either by yourself or by Danny, to
be able to live this life and to do what she loves to do, and
where maybe we see next year, that sort of, I think that whole
addictive, that whole thing that she's addicted to this and it's
not as rosy as it feels.
But it's Christmas day and she's reconciling with them and of
course it feels like it feels like the best thing to do in the
world because it is. the best thing to run away with a doctor.
Yeah, it's the best thing you could do.
We always say that Mothat reacts to the thing that he did most
recently.
And so by setting Clara up as someone who was torn between a home
life and the doctor, next year, of course, and we see it in this
episode, she's all in as being a companion and we'll see where
that leads.
She wants to become too much like the doctor.
I think that's a really interesting angle to take that hasn't
necessarily been done before.
And I think it produces like a fantastic season of Doctor Who next
year, personally, but I love the end of this story.
Like it makes me cry like happy cry at the end.
Like it feels in a weird, I don't know why I always think this.
It feels a little bit like getting back with an X or something.
There's a part of it that like there's the...
I think maybe that comes with the acknowledgement that, okay, this
person might damage me. down the line.
But it's Christmas.
And I get to see this person again and I'm just going to do it.
I'm talking about the doctoral class.
Yeah, well, both.
I think.
But that, like, yeah, that moment, and I think Peter Capoli's
performance in that moment actually sort of sort of breaks my
heart, just the simplicity of him just saying, come with end... so
good.
There's vulnerability there.
Like, he doesn't know that she's going to say yes.
But he really, really wants her to.
Yeah.
You know?
And as you say, it's all in Capaldi's performance.
Like he sort of pauses before he asks and, you know, yeah, the
swagger goes because he's come in.
He's like, okay, I'm taking off the bloody head crab again.
Am I young?
I have no idea.
That's so sweet.
I love the I've got no idea.
And then he rushes to get a mirror for her to check if that she's
young. because that whole thing of him not seeing age is kind of a
joke until that moment where it feels so like such a beautiful
sentiment of how little how little he sees that despite, you
know?
I think there's something really interesting about Moffat's
decision to just retain that ending scene and then add another
dream onto it.
I think it's absolutely the right thing to do.
And seeing what that scene would have been like if this is where
Jenna leaves the show.
This is what we would have seen.
And I think that seems really good.
But I'm glad it's not where we land.
I'm glad it didn't end with like terrible old mate.
Terrible ageing.
You know, like an old lake up.
Jenna without makeup.
Astonishing how much she looks like Grandma Etta, actually.
See, I actually think the makeup's really good.
I think where it falls down is Jenna doesn't know how to do an old
voice.
Right.
Look, that's just my opinion.
But also the way it's shot is we're meant to not know until she
switches on the lamp and it's like, no, we can totally see like
she's gray haired or what have you.
But yeah, like, the listeners may not know that originally that
was the end and that is how Jenna was going to be written out.
And, you know, it's interesting. unique.
And I think what's lovely is even though, you know, she says, well
it's actually the doctor says Danny was a tough act to follow.
No, you know, no one could live up to Danny.
She's travelled, she's taught.
She's had a fun life, she's enjoyed herself.
And I think it sends 2 powerful messages.
It's A, you know, she did get on with life in a way, but also B
just because she didn't fall in love again.
It wasn't a wasted life.
Yeah.
Yeah, I thought that was good.
And I liked the, you know, the fact that she'd had all these
regrets, which she was really happy about because it did mean that
she, you know, had sex with a lot of people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, absolutely.
I thought the moment in that scene that really landed for me.
And again, when the Christmas cracker comes out, I'm there going
are you going to do this?
Are you going to do this?
and you have the doctor helping her?
to open the Christmas cracker.
Just like in time of the doctor, which is so perfect.
And that was where I kind of lost it a bit.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is so sweet.
Yeah, and with the whole, like, he doesn't know she's gotten old
and he doesn't know she's still young.
It throws a new complexion on all those remarks about her
appearance over the previous 12 episodes.
And it's a nice It's a nice ending to that because, you know
something you said all the way through, Nathan is, because she's
not upset by it, it's okay.
But it adds a new dimension to he genuinely doesn't know he's
being insulting.
Yeah.
You know, he's like, he's genuinely confused by the 3 mirrors and
it's like, is it because her head's wide?
don't know.
I always read it like that because this is the man that can't tell
that Amy's pregnant. his choice.
He doesn't know what that beautiful woman, probably.
Yeah, yeah.
All the way back.
Although it is kind of more fun if he does know he's being
insulted.
I mean that largely ends at this point.
So this is very, definitely kind of the arc finale for the
doctor's character and it works just tremendously well, I think.
Because the next time we see him, he's, you know, rolling in on a
tank. an electric guitar, which I love.
Yeah, I think without last Christmas, that those 2 versions of the
character would feel completely different.
But I think last Christmas is a necessary stepping point.
And you can sort of imagine how he ends up riding in on a tank
after like him just ecstatically happy running off with Clara and
his night on the sleigh, like he's had such a important night for
him.
Yeah, you know.
Well, that's all the time we have for now.
We'll be back later this year to talk about Series 9.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightTorEntirety.com
where you'll find links to our accounts on Facebook, Twitter, and
Mastodon, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody
interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek Project.
Until next time, remember that the big problem in telling reality
and podcasting apart is that they're both ridiculous.
Thank you very much for listening.
Merry Christmas and good night.
Sleep well.
Happy holidays.
And God bless us, Mary gentlemen.
Haroon, Haroon.
Haroon.
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottley, Max
Jelbart, Brendan Jones, and Peter Griffiths.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, the Tangerine in the Window, was recorded on the
17th of June 2023 and released on the 25th of July.
Well, there's no rest for the wicked, and so we'll be recording
our episode on the magician's apprentice this weekend, and we'll
start releasing our coverage of series 9 in the spring.
Or the autumn if you live on the top half of the planet.
We'll see you then.
I think maybe out.
I think maybe the discussion of old Lady Clara might be a good
out.
Might be the place to end it.
You know, it takes some rearranging.
I think after that we just went dream crabs and guest cast.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they were things that should have gone in earlier I think.
Yeah, I think you're right.
But I derailed things by talking about the dream crabs too early.
Oh, they're so good though.
They're great.
Yeah.
Great.
I don't think that Michael Trouton look alike is fat enough.
I was looking, like I was checking to see, is there a fat one and
like a short one and stuff like that, and I don't think that
because there's one guy who gets credited as sleeper or something
I think.
Trout and Dream Crab.
Yeah, yeah, Trout Dream Camp.
It's probably Paul Casey.
Probably.
He's very tiny though.
What's the what's the name of that?
Paul Willis?
Is that his name?
Paul Wilmshurst So he did Mummy and Kill the Moon.
He's so, like, this is great, and he doesn't come back, right?
No, that's it. all the directors that Russell and Moth that rate
because they're back to the Christmas special.
Yeah, yeah.
Like Metstein?
Did Metstein do a Christmas special?
No.
Jamie Payne.
Okay.
After his sterling efforts on Hyde.
I thought Saw Met scene did Dr. Widow in the wardrobe.
No, not Dr. Widow on the Wardrobe.
That's Farron Blackburn.
I beg your pardon?
The snowman.
I think he did do this now.
Yeah, Matt Steve does the cement.
Yeah, yeah, he does.
But yeah, this is shot so well.
I love that that scene with the toys.
The slinky's coming.
That was just, which is obviously a great visual gag, but it's
also shot with such conviction and like the music that music cue
over it.
It's really good.
It's really good What fun?
All right.
I think I think we're done.
Yeah, I have one, I have one more thing about fame, I say, and we
don't necessarily need to include this, but we've most recently
seen her in Andor as resistant cell leader, Velsartha.
Oh my god, she is too.
Oh, wow.
Have you seen Andor?
I'm not a Star Wars guy, but Andor is so great.
It's really Blake 7, which is a reason.
Blake 7 only with better writing and better performances.
Yeah.
And Corrison, things set on Corrison, which is made out of pixels
in the prequels.
It seems to be made out of concrete in Andor, it's incredible. your
maximum power.
Yeah, well, the last thing I watched was Ultraworld, right?
I need to go watch that.
I need to go watch that now.
Yeah, you're gonna do that.
All right.
Well, we'll leave you to it then in that case.
Go and watch it.
See, you know that Tarrant and Dana bone in that one.
Just a human meeting ritual.
What's she doing to his nose?
I was trying to work out.
Is anyone, so 2 of them shave their heads and the other one
refused to.
Really?
You didn't need to, did he?
Well, no, but his hair looked like a wig.
I thought he'd put like a circular wig on.
Into minor.
It's Picard hair.
It's so bad.
Like, like, it grows back.
I don't like I don't know what...
Maybe had something next on next week or something, next.
Yeah.
Maybe he said, I'm not shaving my head for this program.
Well, there's that old story about the 1st episode of Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy.
Like, because they were shooting it as a pilot, even though the
series had been commissioned, but it was this weird thing.
Basically, the pilot in the series were shot a while apart.
And the pilot, the location work was done, I think, 2 months
before the studios.
So, um, pretty much what's his name?
Simon Jones.
Arthur Dent.
Goes off to do another show and they're like, you need to cut your
hair.
And he's like, no, no, no, I've got this.
I've got this thing.
I'm not allowed to cut my hair or you have to cut it to the same
leg.
No, no, no, we're cutting your hair.
And he's like, Okay, I've warned you.
No, he does the job.
They cut his hair.
So for the for the studio scenes of the 1st episode, he has a
partial wig that was paid for by the other production.
Well, what about Do you remember Henry Cavell?
Henry Cavell's fake upper lip.
Did you ever see that?
Jesus Christ, that was bad.
Yeah, because whoever does Mission Impressible wouldn't let him
shave his moustache.
Yeah, so he had to wear...
How long does it take to grow a moustache, for God's sake.
I mean, yeah.
Maybe he was shooting both at once.
I don't.
I think it was...
Cavil, you've seen how hair he is.
Yeah, he is.
Yeah.
Plenty of times.
All right.
We'll leave you to it. was fun.
Give everyone my love tonight.
I will.
No lovely to see you.
Good to see you, mate.
Good to see you, Peter.
Bye, Nathan. send me the audio.
Send me the audio.
Okay, and stopping.