WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:06:44

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast which thinks that while Jane Austen

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has good technique.

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She presses a bit hard and pulls your head round a bit roughly.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter, and I'm Tom.

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Well, the doctor is facing imminent certain death as usual, and so

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now we have to find out where on earth he actually is.

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And so our 1st step, as always, will be to consult the magician's

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apprentice.

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How amazing is it to have Missy back so soon?

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It's really very clear, isn't it, that Moffat just couldn't leave

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her alone, like he killed her in the last regular episode, at

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which point presumably he had last Christmas planned already.

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So the 2nd he can get her back, he does.

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And she is just incredibly great.

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And isn't it great always having a death ray slash might be

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teleport happening?

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We'll see next week that Moffatt actually makes that canonical

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thing that's now impossible to avoid absolutely means that that

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can always, always, always have happened whenever anyone's shot.

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It made me think of the Cliffhangers part one of Caves of

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Andrazani, where we have to use actual guns with bullets in order

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to ensure that we knew that they'd actually been shown.

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This isn't a cliffhanger.

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It's actually happening.

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Yeah, Missy is amazing.

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I mean, it's so great to have Michelle Gomez back and she leads

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the story in the same way.

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So the doctor is absent, apart from that prologue.

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He's absent from 10, 12 minutes of the story.

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And so she's the lead.

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It's not Clara, it's missy.

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And certainly not Kate Lethbridge Stewart.

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It's interesting with that because as you say, the doctor is kind

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of vanished from the story.

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There's this whole sort of mystery that he's gone and people are

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looking for him.

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Um, and I remember, because he's there in, you get the pre-title.

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So he's there.

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You see him in the bit in the... one of the most elegant pre

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titles ever, but I'm sure we'll talk about that.

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Yeah.

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It's interesting because I remember when I used to edit the Doctor

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Who magazine when this story was on.

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I did quite near the end of my time on the magazine and we were

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talking about, you know, it was the start of a new series and how

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we would, you know, what's the hook, how you promote it.

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And I was reminded that it was a secret that Davros was going to

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be in this story.

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So it completely changed how we were going to, you know, what's

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the way into it?

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And if you can't talk about Davros, then it's quite difficult.

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So, well, what's this, what's this story about?

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So yeah, we did have to sort of go in on the kind of what the

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doctors vanished.

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People are looking for him. where he is, which isn't quite as

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exciting as talking about Davros, but they were very clear that

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Davros was to be a surprise, even though he's kind of there in the

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1st 2 minutes of the episode.

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I think he does come as a surprise though, doesn't he?

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So we open in this sort of battlefield and Moffatt, who is, of

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course, every bit, the sort of massive fan that we tend to forget

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that he really is, is recreating the idea of the war in Genesis of

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the Dialects.

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And he does that really, really, just brilliantly well by having a

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biplane, firing laser beams at some soldiers who then turn around

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and try and hit it with a bow and arrow.

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Like it absolutely gets that without any dialogue just showing it

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to us.

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And so I think probably some of us were suspecting at that point

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that we were looking at Skara.

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It's very reminiscent, isn't it?

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the line Harry Sullivan says about this story, they're going to

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end up with bows and arrows.

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So I think it's very very playing specifically.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it's a nice little call back to that.

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And the whole colour palette of it looks very, you know, you

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instantly recognise that's the world we're in.

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And it was always such a great idea that, you know, let's revisit

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it.

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Yeah, let's use that iconography again.

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But the thing that they do, of course, is they update it.

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So the 2 Khalids are black, which I think is really super

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interesting given that they were kind of a Nazi analogue in the

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original story.

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And they also don't speak with sort of posh English accents, like

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they just sort of speak normally.

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And then we see the sort of hand minds thing.

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Is that hilarious line?

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Aren't there clam drones somewhere?

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Like someone comes up and says there are clam drones we have to go

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and get the clam drones.

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And then we have the hand mines.

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And that, again, is a completely different type of technology

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which you can imagine Davros being involved in because he does

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sort of genetic stuff.

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Yeah, the original one predates him.

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The original one was one of his hands.

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I mean, I think it's the idea that the war has been going on for

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goodness knows how long, because he says it's just the war.

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They don't know anything else, and presumably we don't know how

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long after Genesis is set, it could be, because Davros has already

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by that point kind of prolonged his life.

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I think they really sells the idea that the war has been going on

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for 1000s and 1000s of years.

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They had this technology.

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Yeah.

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It's handminded technology, which was super advanced and really

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bizarre and creepy.

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And they've devolved to the point where they're fighting biplanes

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with bows and arrows.

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Yeah.

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I've been spending a ridiculous amount of time playing Zelda Tears

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of the Kingdom over the past couple of months, and perhaps the

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most terrifying thing in that is the gloom spawn, which is hands

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covered in sort of goo with eyes in their palms that just sort of

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chase after you really quickly.

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And I just remember getting this sort of these catch, you know

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they're frightening, aren't they?

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Yeah.

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And it's a brilliant idea.

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I mean, it is a tremendous idea.

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And the usual thing, like there's nothing more moffity than that

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line where there's the little kid and the soldier who's trying to

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tell him that everything's going to be okay and asks him if he's

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ever seen a handline and the kid is just looking at the guy's leg

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and you know immediately that that's what he's looking at.

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He's seen one right now around the guy's leg.

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And so the guy gets pulled down into the earth.

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Doesn't he the moment that he says everything's going to be okay?

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Yeah, he does a Colin in trial of a time lord.

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But isn't that sequence amazing?

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It is beautifully written and paste and filmed.

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It's the perfect opening to a series, I think.

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Hetty McDonald's. isn't it?

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Who's directing and that's the 1st one that she'd done, she's just

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done Blink before.

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Yes, the track.

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Yeah.

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But yeah.

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I remember she was a get for Blink because she was a feature film

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director.

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And you can tell.

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Yeah, beautiful thing. absolutely.

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And the 1st woman to direct a new series episode, I think.

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New series opener.

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A new series episode?

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Like, pushing the first.

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Yes, pushing the first.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, because then we had Alice Charlton and Catherine Moore's

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head, I think, from series five.

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But it is absolutely beautifully done and like it gives you that

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fan glow because as soon as you realise that we're back in

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Genesisville. you think, okay, what's happening here?

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What's he riffing on?

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And so this scene gets played out again and again, and obviously

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we come back to it at the end of the episode, it's the cliffhanger

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and we see it several times in the course of the 2 part story.

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And so it is the central question, isn't it?

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Of the show is the thing that we hear Tom Baker's dog to say, you

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know, on Davros's TV a bit later, which is if there was a child

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who you knew would grow up to be a terrible dictator and destroy

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1000000s of lives.

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Could you then kill that child?

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Or do you abandon that child?

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And I think we get the impression from from episode one that that

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is what he's done.

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It's deliberate misdirection is now. without preempting too much

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that happens in part two.

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It's the fact that at the end of the story, the doctor believes

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that Missy and Clara are dead.

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As the audience, I don't think we're really supposed to think that

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at all.

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But the doctor believes it.

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And so we're led to believe that he is going to go back and, well

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actually, it's not clear, is it?

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Because obviously this is a, this is, this is a future doctor. we

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later find out.

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Well, this is after the end of the story. goes back.

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I think that what happens is this, and again, we are going to kind

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of wander into next week's territory a little bit here.

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But one of the things that Moffatt does with the fact that doctor

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can time travel is he often doesn't do flashbacks.

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Instead, the events happen in the doctor's timeline.

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So I think the doctor has been there first.

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And I think that when he hears from Davros, the reason that he

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feels ashamed is that he just left.

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He said he was going to save the boy and he didn't.

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He just left when he found out it was Davros.

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And we know that Davros remembers.

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You know, that's what Colony Saff says.

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Davros remembers, and we see Davros has the Sonic screwdriver that

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the doctor has thrown to Davros, and he himself doesn't have a

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Sonic screwdriver anymore.

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And then I think what happens is at the end of the story, he goes

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back and rescues him and he goes back and does that because the

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Dalek had mercy on Clara and he wants that mercy to come from

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somewhere.

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And so this is a story where there's a kind of utilitarian

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morality kind of held up and found wanting.

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And we've said this before, that Doctor Who doesn't really do

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utilitarianism.

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It's not good enough to leave Davros to die because it will save a

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lot of other people because what sort of person are you when you

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leave Davros to die?

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Yeah.

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And again, without wanting to preempt too much of part two.

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I mean, it's the Trouble Pub 2 part story.

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The doctor and Davros are at cross purposes through the, you know

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when they meet at the end of Magician's Apprenticement and

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throughout part 2 that there's the Davros talks about his weakness

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and and yes, from Davros's point of view, the weakness is that he

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went back to rescue him.

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But the doctor doesn't know that.

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He doesn't know that.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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And so compassion is a weakness.

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And that is clearly wrong because Davros says it, like it's a

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moral judgement that Davros makes and Davros is wrong about

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morality sort of generally.

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I don't know.

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Sometimes.

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And so that's what's central to this story.

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And one of the things that I think about this story is that that's

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a really, really good central concede.

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It gives us a brilliant teaser and a great cliffhanger and a great

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ending, but the rest of the story seems to be spinning its wheels

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a little bit.

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I mean, I have a couple of things to say about that.

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One is that it's good that the doctor got the right Davros because

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Davros might just be a popular name around the car.

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That might have been Davros Jones that he was angsty about.

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Who knows?

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But yes, I think I'm very entertained by this episode and it does

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have that brilliant opener and I really like what it's talking

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about because it is saying something.

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So there's all these good things, which are really positive, but

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it is a series of extended set pieces, which don't quite mesh

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together.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I kind of want Doctor Who to not do a story every time.

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Like to not go and solve a space problem or an aliens problem or

250
00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:52.440
something like that.

251
00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:54.600
So this is a little bit more thoughtful.

252
00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:57.840
This is kind of reestablishing the doctor after we had a sort of

253
00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.080
extended critique of his character last season.

254
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:07.500
This is our sort of seeing where we are in one sense.

255
00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:10.500
And it just gives us time to hang out with Missy and obviously

256
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:12.059
that's a great thing.

257
00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.899
But, you know, I think we said the same thing about a good man

258
00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:16.740
goes to war.

259
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.700
I like a good man goes to war quite a lot, but you kind of feel

260
00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:24.240
like that scene at the beginning where the doctor isn't seen and

261
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.000
he's going to collect various people.

262
00:13:27.059 --> 00:13:30.240
You know, this is very similar to that, isn't it?

263
00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:34.259
And it does seem like the sort of thing that might not have

264
00:13:34.259 --> 00:13:36.659
survived a more rigourous edit.

265
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.279
Yeah, I mean, sometimes you get some and very entertaining, a lot

266
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:42.059
of nothingness.

267
00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.399
I mean, even Missy says with that stuff with the plane.

268
00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.139
She said, I couldn't have done anything with them anyway.

269
00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.419
So you realise, oh, that was all pointless then.

270
00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:50.039
That was just, it was just showboating.

271
00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:51.539
It's just...

272
00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:52.320
It's a great image.

273
00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:57.360
But I have to say that there's half a dozen really great set piece

274
00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.379
ideas in this episode and you'd be hard pressed to find maybe one

275
00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:03.419
of them fuelling a Chris Tubin episode.

276
00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:05.700
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the thing.

277
00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:11.940
Sand says that we know that Bob Holmes could write Doctor Who in

278
00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:15.000
his sleep because he did several times.

279
00:14:15.059 --> 00:14:19.080
Here, this is as close to kind of failure mode as Moffat gets, and

280
00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.500
it's really clever and entertaining, and there's a lot happening

281
00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:24.299
among the characters and stuff.

282
00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:28.259
So, like on one level, I like the idea that we're trying something

283
00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:32.340
different from just a straightforward Doctor Who story, but it is

284
00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:35.580
a little bit lacking in incident, I think.

285
00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:38.940
And it kind of shows you the workings of the series as well.

286
00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.320
This episode has a lot to do with reintroducing Missy, bringing

287
00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:44.039
Clara back in.

288
00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:47.460
The doctor's got this moral choice that he's got to face.

289
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:51.720
It's got to reintroduce the doctor after last Christmas and that

290
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.059
kind of resolution after series 8 arc.

291
00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:54.899
And so it does that.

292
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.200
It kind of does it sequentially, but it feels like set pieces

293
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:00.539
because it gives them all something brilliant to do.

294
00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:05.279
And so with Missy's reintroduction, you get her at unit with the

295
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.460
Missy Yusufine, which is like exactly what you want.

296
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:13.679
And then it gives her and Clara that extended scene in the square

297
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:17.940
which, as we said, is a bit of vamping, but is really great and

298
00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:21.899
actually takes you back to those heady days of like the doctor and

299
00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:22.440
Joe Grant.

300
00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:23.340
Thank you, Miss Grant.

301
00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.159
We'll let you know, all of that because that relationship is

302
00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:29.940
important, the Missy Clara relationship and it powers the

303
00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:30.120
episode.

304
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:32.639
And that set piece is really great.

305
00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:37.259
And it does, the thing, you know, Moffat has said before, that the

306
00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:39.960
trouble with the master is that they risk getting cuddly, because

307
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:46.200
the master's threat is to be more interesting than the doctor, to

308
00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:50.759
be the star of the program, essentially, he threatens to depose

309
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.179
the doctor as the main character of the program.

310
00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.779
And here you can see her doing it, she is so interesting, so much

311
00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:01.860
fun, absolutely able to hold those scenes and to be the sort of

312
00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:03.899
central focus of that part of the episode.

313
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:08.519
But he does have her kill a bunch of people, which I just think is

314
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.700
absolutely superb and have not turned good.

315
00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.940
And she doesn't do it in an off she does do it in an offhand way

316
00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:19.679
but she doesn't do it in a glib way.

317
00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:20.639
She rubs it in.

318
00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:24.120
I can see the wedding ring on his finger and I think that he's got

319
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.120
kids and she's been properly evil about it.

320
00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:29.700
Yeah, she's really, really terrific.

321
00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:31.559
What was it?

322
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.899
Like, some baby, baby.

323
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.139
Yeah, like baby spew.

324
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.539
Oh, baby, baby.

325
00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.320
I also just thinking she's got some great lines, but the one that

326
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.980
really sticks to my memory is, oh, Davros is your greatest enemy

327
00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:56.759
now, is he?

328
00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:59.340
Hang on.

329
00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:02.039
Did you say, old claw his eye out?

330
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.839
That whole scene, the interplay between them in that whole scene

331
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.960
where they arrive at the castle in the 12th century.

332
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:11.460
Yeah, just fabulous.

333
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.920
Like, oh, what you doing, man?

334
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.220
She goes very Scottish suddenly, doesn't it?

335
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:21.599
There's this suggestion that somehow this is because of Capaldi's

336
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:22.319
Scottishness as well.

337
00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:25.980
You've got these 2 is she sort of mimicking him deliberately or is

338
00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:26.160
it?

339
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.880
She decides to keep the accent in deep breath and she's been

340
00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:31.740
watching the episode deep breath.

341
00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:36.119
And so when the half-face man turns up at the end, she didn't see

342
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:38.460
the doctor push him out of the restaurant because that wasn't in

343
00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:38.940
the episode.

344
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.039
But she says, what do you think of the accent?

345
00:17:41.099 --> 00:17:42.119
I'm thinking of keeping it.

346
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:43.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

347
00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.759
And she sometimes does a sort of comedy American, like kind of

348
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:51.960
airhead American girl accent as well, which is just absolutely

349
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.599
superb given what she's really like.

350
00:17:54.660 --> 00:18:00.359
And I guess to this version of the of the master is the one who is

351
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:02.220
most credibly friends with the doctor.

352
00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:07.140
It's a thing that Stephen Moffatt pushes in the episode, is that

353
00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:08.819
these 2 people used to be friends.

354
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.720
It was already present, wasn't it, in the RTD era, and it was sort

355
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:13.500
of implied.

356
00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:16.200
It wasn't even really strongly implied, was it in the classic

357
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:16.680
series?

358
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:22.920
I think the pert we Delgado stuff, there is the sense that there's

359
00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:23.460
something there.

360
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:28.200
Yeah, you know, um, I mean, less so with Anthony Ainley in the 80s

361
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:29.940
I think, but even then...

362
00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:32.279
That was the story of Anthony Ainley's master, less so.

363
00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:33.119
Yeah, yeah.

364
00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:35.940
But there is that kind of, there's that bit at the end of Planet

365
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:36.660
of Fire, isn't there?

366
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.039
wouldn't you have mercy even on your own?

367
00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:42.779
And there's that speculation that there's, you know, the milkman

368
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:44.519
president's wife.

369
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:50.039
Yeah, they definitely have a history and although in the 5 doctors

370
00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.400
the the 1st doctor, the Richard Herndle doctor doesn't even seem

371
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.740
to quite recognise the master.

372
00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:56.880
When did this happen?

373
00:18:56.940 --> 00:19:00.059
I mean, I really like that element of Missy's version of the

374
00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:03.180
master in that you get the impression that she would stop killing

375
00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:07.440
people and turn to good, which spoilers, maybe she will, if only

376
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.799
the doctor would actually be her friend and see her as a friend.

377
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:16.319
And that's the whole bit with the previous story, wasn't it?

378
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:17.579
Dark water, deaf in heaven.

379
00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:20.400
Yeah, that she just wants recognition.

380
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:21.900
And I think you've got that.

381
00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:24.599
If there's one thing because some of the master's plans over the

382
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.859
years have been so utterly what even why were you even doing

383
00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:29.099
that?

384
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.279
And I think if you put it through the prism of the master wants

385
00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.579
the doctor's approval somehow and wants the recognition that I've

386
00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:40.920
been really clever, that sort of, you know, kind of makes some of

387
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:44.759
it just feels slightly, slightly more credible, maybe.

388
00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:47.819
Doesn't she suggest that that's her way of flirting?

389
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.940
Like, doesn't she say that's our flirting, trying to kill one

390
00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:53.940
another, um, or our texting, possibly?

391
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.200
I can't remember, but she does reinterpret what they've been doing

392
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.279
for all of these years as kind of play in a way.

393
00:20:02.339 --> 00:20:06.240
And so she's the one who gets the confession dial, not Clara.

394
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:08.339
And I have to confess, I think I said this.

395
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:09.420
Have you got a dial?

396
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:10.079
No.

397
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:13.559
I have to confess.

398
00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:15.420
I didn't even realise what I was doing then.

399
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.859
That a few episodes ago, I said that series 9 is the series of

400
00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:22.799
Doctor Who that I know the least well, that I've seen the least

401
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.880
the least frequently, and I know obviously that the confession

402
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.299
dial will come back and play a massive role towards the end of the

403
00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:30.779
series.

404
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:35.400
But the doctor doesn't think he's going to die, does he, for the

405
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:36.119
whole series?

406
00:20:36.180 --> 00:20:37.740
For once, no.

407
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:38.579
No.

408
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.839
Well, because that's the other thing. tenant going on and on in a

409
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:45.000
very tedious way about how he's about to die.

410
00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:48.539
And then we had Matt Smith in a somewhat less tedious way, but

411
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:49.559
still about to die.

412
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.920
More than once because there was the whole Lake Silencio thing.

413
00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:53.759
Yeah, the whole of series.

414
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:54.599
And then there's trends law.

415
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:55.140
Oh, yeah.

416
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:57.180
So you've got both of those.

417
00:20:57.299 --> 00:21:00.960
Can we just pause once more to appreciate the elegance of the word

418
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.279
trendsolore?

419
00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:02.940
Oh, yeah.

420
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:03.900
It's brilliant.

421
00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:05.039
Perfect, perfect.

422
00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:07.019
The same metre as Gallifrey.

423
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:08.519
It's not a space name.

424
00:21:08.579 --> 00:21:11.640
It's a brilliant word and a superb edition.

425
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:12.900
Probably.

426
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.960
Like most of the location work on this episode.

427
00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:20.400
Yeah, the doctor's last resting place on Rand's Corps Av.

428
00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.819
So it is in Spain, isn't it?

429
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:25.500
One of your hot countries that...

430
00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:26.819
Well, it's Tenerife.

431
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.599
Okay, all right.

432
00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:28.319
Yeah, yeah.

433
00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:29.279
And there's a fair amount.

434
00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:32.940
We've done Spain before in town called Mercy.

435
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:34.500
Yeah, Asylum of the Daleks.

436
00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:36.299
And Killer Moon.

437
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:36.900
Okay.

438
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:38.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah Mazarote.

439
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:38.880
Yeah.

440
00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:44.460
And so we're in Spain for that that superb sequence. sort of under

441
00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:46.319
the shadow of the plane in the in the square.

442
00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:48.359
I didn't see any burnt out cinders.

443
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:58.079
So then, of course, we're off to see the doctor and there were a

444
00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:00.359
series of maybe 3 short clips.

445
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:01.380
Does anyone remember that?

446
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:01.980
We watched them.

447
00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:03.359
Tom and I watch too.

448
00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:05.400
So what do they do?

449
00:22:05.460 --> 00:22:07.019
They explain who Bors is.

450
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.079
Well, the 1st one is actually a deleted scene.

451
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:13.619
It's not presented as such, but it was in the script for the

452
00:22:13.619 --> 00:22:14.759
magician's apprentice.

453
00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:15.119
Okay.

454
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.259
And that's the whole bit with, is it Oheila, the, uh, Oheila, the

455
00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:20.759
sister, uh, on Carna.

456
00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:24.180
And I guess it would have come at some point after Colony staff

457
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:26.519
has been to visit the sisterhood.

458
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.000
And there's a whole scene where the doctor and a healer are

459
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.599
talking about whether he's going to go and visit Davros and

460
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.500
there's the whole sort of a sort of moral conjury and...

461
00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:39.420
It's quite sort of interrogates the quandary.

462
00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:41.940
And it is a very, very good scene, but I think it was probably

463
00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:45.599
good that it was excised because it slows things down at the wrong

464
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:45.960
moment.

465
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:51.480
And I think what we end up with still keeps the doctor off stage a

466
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:51.900
little bit.

467
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:57.420
So he has been there, like there's that thing where Oheila says, um

468
00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:00.119
the doctor's behind you, always behind you, standing right behind

469
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:01.380
you in one step ahead.

470
00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:06.000
And I think Saf goes and we see that the doctor's there.

471
00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:09.359
But he's in shadow. his, you know, so his physical appearance is

472
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:12.480
kind of downplayed a little bit and we see very little of him and

473
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.660
that's kind of the 1st that we see of him in that colony staff

474
00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:16.200
thing.

475
00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:21.420
I think, like the colony staff thing is less fun and interesting

476
00:23:21.420 --> 00:23:27.000
than the comparable scene in Good Man Goes to War, where we

477
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:29.400
introduce all of those characters who are going to come and form

478
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.720
the posse, I think.

479
00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:34.440
But there's a brilliant moment where they're talking about where

480
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:35.339
is the doctor?

481
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:39.720
You know, I think Kate and the unit woman, where is the doctor?

482
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.680
And then we just cut and it says Essex down the bottom of the

483
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:44.099
screen.

484
00:23:44.099 --> 00:23:45.539
And the doctor's not even in it.

485
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:49.500
It's just this sort of baying crowd with Essex for just like a few

486
00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:52.440
seconds and then we come back to sort of talking about where the

487
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.279
doctor is and then eventually we sort of end up in that area.

488
00:23:56.339 --> 00:23:58.680
Well, there's the sequence, isn't there?

489
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.099
He goes to see the sister of Khan, and he goes to the shadow

490
00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:04.740
proclamation as well, which I'd kind of forgotten that you get the

491
00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:05.940
same, same woman.

492
00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:07.079
That buffy head actress.

493
00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:07.619
Yeah, yeah.

494
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:11.400
But I like to imagine that, you know, he's gone to like 1000s of

495
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:11.880
places.

496
00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:14.819
He sort of turns up and, you know, are some pteroreptils.

497
00:24:14.819 --> 00:24:16.559
Have you seen the doctor?

498
00:24:16.619 --> 00:24:19.619
Goes and visits his cousins, the Mara.

499
00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:23.519
Yeah, I mean, how many people has he gone round to ask?

500
00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:25.559
And there's this strange suggestion as well?

501
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:28.559
Because when they eventually do catch up with him, he finds him

502
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:28.920
there.

503
00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:33.299
The Daleks have clearly already infiltrated boars and others

504
00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:33.720
there.

505
00:24:33.779 --> 00:24:37.380
So do the Daleks already know that the doctor's there and they

506
00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:38.940
procure the TARDIS and all of that?

507
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.480
Or are they working independently of colony staff and Davros?

508
00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:45.660
Yeah, feels like Davros and the Daleks aren't talking to each

509
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:45.900
other.

510
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:50.099
Oh, I got the impression that somehow the technology would come

511
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:50.880
with stuff.

512
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:53.759
I just think that's a gap in the plot.

513
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:58.680
As in, yeah, he's there and he is linked with our brother. like I

514
00:24:58.680 --> 00:24:59.759
in Bordswell, yeah.

515
00:24:59.819 --> 00:25:02.819
Well, you know, like, because that's a whole, it's a Nanite thing

516
00:25:02.819 --> 00:25:03.240
isn't it?

517
00:25:03.299 --> 00:25:04.380
Like, isn't that established?

518
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:05.099
Oh, something.

519
00:25:05.099 --> 00:25:05.460
Yeah.

520
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:10.740
So it's only at the point South arrives that he's able...

521
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:11.640
Okay, that makes sense.

522
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:12.299
So it could do.

523
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:14.160
You're right, though. not spelled out.

524
00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:15.180
Ted Cannon.

525
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:17.819
He is surprisingly easy to find.

526
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.480
It is kind of that, you know, show all the dots on the map now

527
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.960
delete all of the ones except for the one where he is now and bang

528
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:25.380
he's there.

529
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.519
And colony stuff does turn up on Khan while the doctor is there.

530
00:25:29.579 --> 00:25:32.220
So I guess that he hits Earth.

531
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.400
Maybe... he was there at the shadow proclamation as well.

532
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:36.779
Right behind you.

533
00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:40.380
He's just been following her around listening to everything he

534
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:42.299
says right behind you in one step behind.

535
00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:45.420
And so he digs a well or something.

536
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:47.579
There's another one where he's digging a well.

537
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:50.220
It goes on for a fair while, that...

538
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:52.500
It's called the doctor's meditation, is it called?

539
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.440
And I think that's quite long and it's slightly more comic, isn't

540
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:55.559
it?

541
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:58.559
Because it's got the whole digging for water in about 20 different

542
00:25:58.559 --> 00:25:59.160
places.

543
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:03.299
Yeah, it's a bit of fun, but it's not really essential for the

544
00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:03.480
story.

545
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:05.460
It was a day of shooting, you know.

546
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:06.480
Yeah.

547
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.579
And that wasn't a deleted scene, though.

548
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:13.259
No, that was done as a deliberate for the website, I guess.

549
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:14.880
Or was it on the DVD?

550
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:20.160
It was first, I think, was 1st released with the film showings in

551
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.980
3D of the season finale from last season.

552
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:24.359
Oh, okay.

553
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:26.039
And then released on the website.

554
00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:28.740
So it was available internationally before it was available.

555
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:33.180
I think a lot of these things were done, you know, basically, as a

556
00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:37.680
little trick of funding, Stephen would say to me, well, we get

557
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.460
these, you know, sometimes blue, you know, DVD Blu-ray, deleted

558
00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:43.740
scenes, and we're, you know, we promised them an exclusive and

559
00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:44.039
that.

560
00:26:44.099 --> 00:26:47.099
But basically, it was to get some extra money, which they could

561
00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:49.980
spend on the actual episodes, you know, because if you're using

562
00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:54.539
the same actors and same sets and everything else, essentially

563
00:26:54.539 --> 00:26:57.900
it's a clever way of increasing your budget for the actual

564
00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:58.200
episode.

565
00:26:58.259 --> 00:26:59.940
Yeah, horse follows card.

566
00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:03.359
And actually, if you look at those scenes with Colony South, who

567
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:06.420
does look great, but maybe not as great as I hoped he would look

568
00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:07.259
from the concept.

569
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:10.559
Once you realise, as Tom told me, that he's actually travelling

570
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:14.400
around on a segue underneath that big cloak, you can't unsee it.

571
00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:17.099
Every time he swishes into shot, you're like, he's on a segue.

572
00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:22.200
He makes some comment about a bunch of snakes in a dress at some

573
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:24.960
point, like the doctor's dismissive of him and says that he's

574
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:26.640
wearing a dress, which I think is pretty great.

575
00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:27.779
The rest of snakes in a dress.

576
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

577
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:32.640
It's a pretty great idea It's, it is very kind of weird though.

578
00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:36.480
You know, when the doctor meets Stavros, Davros doesn't even

579
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.000
understand the question, what planet are we on?

580
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:41.880
You know, at the very beginning, what planet are we?

581
00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:43.259
He doesn't even understand the question.

582
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:45.900
And of course, where the doctor originally needs to have Ross

583
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:47.220
ingenesis of the Daleks.

584
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.960
He thinks there's no inhabited planets.

585
00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:52.140
And now having Davros, obviously having gone through the time war

586
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:55.799
and stuff like that, embedded in this sort of weird, cheesy

587
00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:01.559
Moffattish space science fiction thing with Maldivarium and all of

588
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:02.400
that. sort of stuff.

589
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:07.920
It seems weird and incongruous that Davros has this sort of

590
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:12.059
strange sidekick who is trying to, like, you know, that's fun, but

591
00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:13.500
it is slightly on, I think.

592
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:15.000
I said Nider had let himself go.

593
00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:15.960
Yes, that's right.

594
00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:22.440
At least the sleight of hand, which is in the next episode of the

595
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:27.299
fact that colony stuff is actually integrated into Davros's

596
00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:27.779
technology.

597
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:28.319
Yeah.

598
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.500
Like the snakes are part of his life support system.

599
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:32.099
Yeah.

600
00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:37.500
And there's, there are like this banding on the cables. that's

601
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:42.000
clearly visible until you see that it's that there's snakes, the

602
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.279
next episode, you don't consciously realise it.

603
00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:45.000
Yeah, yeah.

604
00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:55.019
The interesting thing about the sort of early Danros appearances

605
00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:58.680
is there isn't really a sort of gap for things in between, it's a

606
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:02.759
Genesis follows, it's followed by destiny, and that's pretty much

607
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.680
followed by resurrection.

608
00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:06.059
Yeah, it has to be, does it?

609
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:09.960
So what point, I mean, obviously the doctor tells Davros about, you

610
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.140
know, future Dalek events in Genesis, but there's a sort of a

611
00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:16.799
point where he's never been off Scaro until Resurrection of the

612
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:17.339
Daleks.

613
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:19.799
Well, I mean, yeah, that's right.

614
00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:23.519
And then he's in suspended animation in Resurrection of the Daleks

615
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:23.759
as well.

616
00:29:23.819 --> 00:29:24.660
That's the idea.

617
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:29.279
So he becomes quite sort of, you know, aware of the rest of the

618
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.559
universe quite suddenly, really.

619
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:36.779
You know, it's, from Davril's point of view, given that Destiny

620
00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:40.200
you know, it might be a long time later, but this is all sort of

621
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.660
in the period of a few days, isn't it?

622
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.640
his perspective.

623
00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:47.039
Like a week ago, he didn't believe there was life on other

624
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:47.460
planets.

625
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:47.819
No.

626
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:51.779
So what happens to him is what happens to the Daleks, isn't it?

627
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.299
You know, the Daleks are just on this one planet stuck in their

628
00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:54.960
city.

629
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.619
And then David Whittaker realises they're the doctor's mythic

630
00:29:58.619 --> 00:30:03.240
enemy and turns them into that, I think, you know, their space

631
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:07.259
opera antagonists in the in the Terry Nation stories in the

632
00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:10.740
Heartnel era, but then they become this sort of mythic evil

633
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:11.279
force.

634
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:15.359
And I think the same thing happens to Davros as well.

635
00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:20.400
And it probably doesn't happen in the classic series so much just

636
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.819
because, I mean, he's sort of getting there, isn't he, towards the

637
00:30:23.819 --> 00:30:25.380
end of revel?

638
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:30.119
Well, yeah, and and remembrance, you know, where he's sort of

639
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.539
ranting Hitler figure on the black and white tally sort of thing.

640
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.680
But I think it really, really properly happens in David Tennant's

641
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:41.700
era where he becomes the antagonist in the time war and then has

642
00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:44.579
all this sort of weird mythology around him that we never quite

643
00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:45.119
get.

644
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:49.859
Yeah, well, remembrance, of course, Davros is, you know, he's very

645
00:30:49.859 --> 00:30:51.240
aware of time lord technology.

646
00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:54.359
I mean, that's all sort of preempting the time war kind of stuff

647
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:58.500
but there is that suggestion that that's sort of on the cusp of

648
00:30:58.500 --> 00:31:00.299
the time war starting to happen, isn't it?

649
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.819
And that is one of the things that I like about this episode.

650
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.640
It's not Davros as the ranting head of an army.

651
00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:10.140
It reduced it down to, as it was in Genesis, Davros and the doctor

652
00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:12.480
in a room together facing each other.

653
00:31:12.539 --> 00:31:17.400
And I think that Moffat may have been quoted in interviews as

654
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:21.059
saying that he was kind of hoping to recapture that, and he

655
00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:25.980
certainly has a little bit where he plays the audio, you know.

656
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:28.440
I thought you might just miss our conversations.

657
00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:28.799
Yes.

658
00:31:28.859 --> 00:31:31.079
You get you get all of the little clips.

659
00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:34.500
I think every previous Davros story is represented, isn't it?

660
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:37.799
You get a bit of Colin and Sylvester and David Tenner as well.

661
00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:42.779
Yeah, you know, Stephen asked Russell to write this to Powder.

662
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:43.380
Oh, really?

663
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:43.920
Yes.

664
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:45.480
And he said, no.

665
00:31:45.539 --> 00:31:50.160
He's literally...

666
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:51.539
He never wanted to come back.

667
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:53.819
Well, Stephen asked Russell a lot of times to come back.

668
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:54.359
Did he?

669
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:59.220
Russell was doing other stuff and didn't want to know.

670
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:00.180
He did a bit of distance.

671
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:03.599
Yeah, well, it was still, I suppose, what, 5 years on?

672
00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:04.500
Yeah, yeah.

673
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:10.200
But I also have a question about, does this change retrospectively

674
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:14.039
what we see in Genesis of the Dalis, because Davros has already

675
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:14.700
met the doctor.

676
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:19.319
If he remembers, if he remembers all of this, he's seen the DARDIS

677
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:23.160
he's got the Sonic screwdriver, presumably he's kept, he's got it

678
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:25.140
somewhere there in Genesis. keeping it.

679
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:31.200
At what point does Davros think that's the same guy, or does he?

680
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:32.880
Does he not realise until later?

681
00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:34.619
No, I think he does, doesn't he?

682
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.859
I think he does I think the implication, though, is...

683
00:32:37.859 --> 00:32:40.619
And maybe it's some Thor dialogue or maybe I'm reading too much

684
00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:43.740
into it, but I thought there was an implication that he had

685
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:47.880
remembered, as in, it was deep, deep, deep in his memory, his

686
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.140
1000s and 1000s of years old at this point, possibly 1000000s.

687
00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:54.359
Yeah, ancient, ancient.

688
00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:58.140
And this traumatic memory from his childhood has popped back up.

689
00:32:58.259 --> 00:32:59.039
Has resurfaced.

690
00:32:59.099 --> 00:32:59.579
Yes.

691
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:01.559
Or wasn't there in the 1st place.

692
00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:05.339
Yeah, like this, this whole thing that Moffatt loves to do with

693
00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:08.519
when, when does, has it changed time, you mean?

694
00:33:08.579 --> 00:33:11.460
somehow gone back and it's... and even in an episode.

695
00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:14.759
At the beginning of the episode and the end of the episode, like

696
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:17.880
other scenes you're seeing often repeated.

697
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:19.079
The same scene.

698
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:22.740
The way that the doctor is identified often through his

699
00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:25.619
regenerations is hair of an idiot by the TARDIS.

700
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.000
Oh, by the TARDIS isn't present in Genesis of the Daleks.

701
00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:30.960
No, that's true.

702
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:32.400
Yeah, that is true.

703
00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:32.700
Yeah.

704
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:35.279
I mean, he doesn't see either Tartisan destiny.

705
00:33:35.339 --> 00:33:36.359
Resurrection.

706
00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:39.900
There's a whole thing about, you know, sending Daleks to capture

707
00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:40.559
the Tardis.

708
00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:42.119
I'm not sure whether Davros is involved.

709
00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:43.140
Yeah, at what point does that?

710
00:33:43.140 --> 00:33:45.420
In Revelation, the TARDIS is off distant.

711
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.579
I mean, it does hold if we want to go into this.

712
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.259
Yeah, we want to.

713
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.079
Genesis of the Daleks changes history, doesn't it?

714
00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:53.819
But it obviously doesn't change.

715
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:54.420
Well, it does.

716
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:55.799
It changes history in a way.

717
00:33:55.859 --> 00:33:57.960
And so that's on the table as a thing.

718
00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:01.559
I mean, is it possible that we can imagine?

719
00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:03.960
I think, look, I think we're just not supposed to think about it

720
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:04.440
too hard.

721
00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:05.279
Do you know what I mean?

722
00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:08.400
If you want to head Canada, you can go to the effort, but I do

723
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:13.920
think that like there is something audacious and fun and

724
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:17.519
interesting about Stephen Moffat inserting the Dollar Street into

725
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:19.260
Davros's childhood.

726
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:20.219
That's really great.

727
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:25.260
And to get the doctor to reenact the very thing that Tom was

728
00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:30.300
talking to him about in his 1st story, like to make that suddenly

729
00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:32.880
about him about Davros himself.

730
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:38.579
So, I don't know, maybe maybe Capaldi's 1st trip back to the war

731
00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:41.880
on Scaro changes history or perhaps.

732
00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:46.440
Because also if the doctor thinks during most of this story that

733
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:51.059
he abandoned Davros there, he must assume that Davros survived

734
00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:51.599
anyway.

735
00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:52.559
Some other way.

736
00:34:52.619 --> 00:34:55.320
Unless it was Davros Jones, I'm just saying.

737
00:34:55.380 --> 00:34:57.000
It wasn't the same one, yeah.

738
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.219
I mean, is that why he thinks he's dying?

739
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.860
You know, like he's going back here.

740
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:04.679
He knows it's a trap.

741
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:10.440
So he's going back there with no hope as we learn next episode.

742
00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:16.440
He thinks he's going to die because Davros remembers now what the

743
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:22.980
doctor did to him as a child and he's going back there ashamed of

744
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:25.619
what he did, ashamed of leaving him behind.

745
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:30.599
So he's gone back there just to pay the price for his own sort of

746
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:31.380
cruelty.

747
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:35.219
And given that he's been interrogating, if he's a good man or not

748
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:40.860
you know, to have him then do this. and and feel ashamed of it and

749
00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:44.159
both missy and and Clara identify that he's ashamed.

750
00:35:44.219 --> 00:35:44.820
Is that it?

751
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:46.920
He's just going back to pay the price.

752
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:49.619
Moffat's done this a couple of times.

753
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:53.460
He likes to delve into the psyche of characters by going back to

754
00:35:53.460 --> 00:35:54.300
the childhood.

755
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.579
So we did it, obviously, with the doctor in listen.

756
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.900
He did it with Kazran Sardic in a Christmas carol.

757
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:03.719
And again, pulling that same trick where he doesn't do it by

758
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:06.900
having a flashback, he does it by having the doctor going back

759
00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:10.860
into his childhood so that it's actually happening in real-time

760
00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:13.920
kind of chronological order as far as the story's concerned.

761
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:17.940
I think the only place he cheats is in the is in the cliffhanger

762
00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:22.619
to this episode where we're actually seeing the doctor go back for

763
00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:25.619
a 2nd time, which he doesn't do until the end.

764
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:26.940
It is misdirection.

765
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:29.699
Yes, they had to give you a kind of WTF moment.

766
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:34.139
Well, and it's also to play out that event in several different

767
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:39.179
ways throughout the course of the two-part story because if it's

768
00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:45.239
okay to leave Davros behind, to get killed by the hand mines

769
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:48.539
because there's only a one in a 1000 chance of surviving.

770
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.699
If that's okay.

771
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.480
And the doctor's done it, he clearly doesn't think it's okay, but

772
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:55.500
isn't it okay?

773
00:36:55.559 --> 00:37:00.179
Like if you prevent the Daleks from happening from a utilitarian

774
00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:00.960
standpoint?

775
00:37:01.019 --> 00:37:03.059
It's not a bad thing to do.

776
00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:06.420
But isn't it morally equivalent to going back and just shooting

777
00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:07.500
Davros in the face?

778
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:10.260
You know, like, it's it's, well, it's passive, isn't it?

779
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:15.480
Because interestingly, if the doctor hadn't turned up on Scar, he

780
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.780
doesn't even know what planet he's on, then Davros would still

781
00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:21.179
have been in that position and nobody would have rescued him.

782
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:25.019
So clearly the Daleks were still created anyway.

783
00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:27.000
Oh, I don't know.

784
00:37:27.059 --> 00:37:30.119
Does that mean, has the doctor changed history?

785
00:37:30.179 --> 00:37:34.260
Well, yeah, who rescued Davros originally if history's been

786
00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:34.500
changed.

787
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:36.539
The doctor always rescued Deveros.

788
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:37.260
He always did.

789
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:42.300
Yeah, but then, oh, yeah. doctor is essentially responsible for

790
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:43.619
everything.

791
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:50.099
So if the doctor hadn't, you know, lived to become Peter Capaldi

792
00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:53.940
which we already know is past his regeneration cycle, then he

793
00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:57.840
would never have lived around to have rescued Davros and this is

794
00:37:57.840 --> 00:37:58.500
making my head hurt.

795
00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:01.260
Well, yeah.

796
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:05.519
So if Baby Davrok gets trapped by hand minds.

797
00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.760
I mean, the real reason he survives is because the doctor goes

798
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:12.179
back and saves him at the end of the witches familiar.

799
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:19.079
But he thinks at this point that Davros has been saved somehow, and

800
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:19.679
he's right.

801
00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:21.360
He just doesn't know that it's by him.

802
00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:25.019
There's a few examples of this sort of thing, aren't there?

803
00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:28.199
It's like, you know, if you if you take that view of time travel

804
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:31.199
is time being changed or did it always happen and it's like that

805
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:34.440
with the, say, the day of the doctor and the moment and the John

806
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.739
Hurt, did he always do that?

807
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:41.820
Or is it only because, you know, and it's sort of left ambiguous

808
00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:43.860
you can kind of take it whichever way?

809
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:44.940
Does it really matter?

810
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:45.480
I don't know.

811
00:38:45.539 --> 00:38:46.980
I think Siri 6.

812
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:51.900
It definitely has the doctor being shot dead on Lake Silencio, and

813
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:54.059
then he goes back at the very end.

814
00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:56.340
And gets the idea of how to fix it.

815
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:57.420
Yeah, yeah.

816
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:00.239
And it's almost an afterthought, which is part of the fun of that

817
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.739
finale where he goes, oh, yes, and we discover that.

818
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.139
He actually physically ducks back into the room. ducks back into

819
00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:10.019
the room and gets the tesselator to go and do it for him.

820
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:13.559
And so the way he can change time without there being a problem

821
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:18.480
without it breaking time the way that river broke time is by doing

822
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:19.320
it undetectably.

823
00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:23.699
We have that idea of fixed points we get, we hear, what about?

824
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:27.360
I don't mean they mention fixed points in this Davros story, but

825
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:31.500
there is the idea that as long as things appear to be as they

826
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:31.800
are.

827
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.260
Unfold generally as they're supposed to.

828
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:39.480
So everything that we saw on Lake Salencio is, it happened.

829
00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:41.219
It just wasn't what we thought we were seeing.

830
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:45.659
Or or it happened and then he changed it so in such a way that

831
00:39:45.659 --> 00:39:47.400
it's undetectable from the outside.

832
00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:49.139
Like, we just can't tell.

833
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:52.980
And the doctor really is there on Lake Salencio, just as he was

834
00:39:52.980 --> 00:39:53.579
originally.

835
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:55.739
He's just tiny in his own arm.

836
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.820
But then, you know, Stephen Moffat plays with this stuff more than

837
00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:01.199
any other writer has done.

838
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:04.619
And it's intriguing, but it's also, of course, it's going to do

839
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:06.119
your head in because it's...

840
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:08.760
Yeah, the idea. that he's turning over in his head as he goes to

841
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:08.940
sleep.

842
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:12.360
Where's a good Blinovic limitation effect when you need it?

843
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:14.820
We get it a lot more in the next story.

844
00:40:14.940 --> 00:40:18.480
He does a whole narration, doesn't he, about where did I get the

845
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.880
idea from when it becomes a closed loop?

846
00:40:20.940 --> 00:40:21.840
Yeah.

847
00:40:21.900 --> 00:40:27.239
Yes, a friend of the podcast, Anson, who is a friend of Brendan's

848
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:31.980
mentions the idea that the reason the doctor decides to go back at

849
00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:37.380
the end of, which is familiar, is because he's aware that there's

850
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.119
a kind of grandfather paradox.

851
00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:41.460
He has to have gone back to save him.

852
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:45.179
And if he didn't, then time breaks in some way.

853
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.199
But I actually think at that point, because the reason he goes

854
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:55.559
back is because Clara has shown what has asked for mercy. about

855
00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:57.840
the word mercy being in the in the vocabulary.

856
00:40:57.900 --> 00:41:00.960
But of course, we do have a, we're getting into part 2 territory.

857
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:01.920
Yeah, we are.

858
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:03.360
It's the danger of...

859
00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:05.219
This more than anything else, I think.

860
00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:08.280
Because Moffatt very frequently tries to make the 2 parts quite

861
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:09.179
distinct.

862
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:14.340
Here, they are one story in 2 different phases, but they are very

863
00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:15.360
very closely.

864
00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:18.780
Do you think they chose mercy because they couldn't use pity?

865
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:20.820
Yeah, well, there's already...

866
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:23.099
Moffat's just been watching Genesis.

867
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:25.559
It's powered off an entire two-parter in his head.

868
00:41:25.619 --> 00:41:28.920
Stephen had had a Dalek saying mercy.

869
00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:32.280
River Song makes a darling, same mercy in the Big Bang.

870
00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:32.579
Yes.

871
00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:36.239
So the word is that the doctor isn't present to hear that. to be

872
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:36.480
fair.

873
00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:40.440
So he doesn't know how the word mercy gets into the Daleks

874
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:41.099
vocabulary.

875
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:42.480
But now we know.

876
00:41:42.539 --> 00:41:46.860
Yeah, so I don't think that's a continuity error, but we have

877
00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:48.539
heard of Dalek say mercy before.

878
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:52.739
It may be why that word is chosen because we know that the word

879
00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:57.360
pity isn't in the Dalek vocabulary bank because Davros appeals to

880
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:00.300
it in order to not get shot dead at the end of Genesis of the

881
00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:00.960
Daleks.

882
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:07.139
The very, very similar word mercy is somehow in the Daleks

883
00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:12.179
vocabulary, in the Big Bang, and is the show no.

884
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.659
No, but is this how it gets there?

885
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:21.960
Is Moffat explaining how that word is available for the Dalek to

886
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:24.599
use when it's being confronted by River Song?

887
00:42:24.659 --> 00:42:26.340
I mean, I wouldn't put it past him.

888
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:29.099
Or it might just be he's forgotten.

889
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:31.079
It may well just be that as well.

890
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:32.340
Or it might be.

891
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:33.900
Hes forgotten, but someone mentioned that.

892
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:35.940
He says, yes, that's what I was doing.

893
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:37.199
That's very him, yeah.

894
00:42:55.619 --> 00:43:00.599
So, the other element here that I think is really interesting is

895
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:06.539
the fact that we go back to the version of Scaro from the original

896
00:43:06.539 --> 00:43:08.219
Daleks.

897
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:12.300
We've said before, that in a way, Moffatt isn't super interested

898
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:15.840
in the Daleks themselves, and we never have just a sort of

899
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:19.500
straightforward Dalek story in the Moffatt era with perhaps the

900
00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:21.900
exception of Victory of the Daleks.

901
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:29.219
So here he's just using, because it's a story about ideas like the

902
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:34.860
doctor, the master davros, the Daleks, he takes them back to the

903
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:36.840
most kind of iconic version.

904
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:39.119
And that's a great moment, isn't it?

905
00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:43.260
When the, like, Missy discovers that the spaceship is, yeah, and

906
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:47.039
the horror of they've brought it back and then we, the planet

907
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:50.639
appears and the, the, yeah, the city from, you know, the dead

908
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:51.300
planet, basically.

909
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:56.579
Yeah, yeah. visually they base that on the dialect comic strips

910
00:43:56.579 --> 00:43:57.719
from the 60s.

911
00:43:57.780 --> 00:44:03.000
But it really seems to me like a recreation of that model.

912
00:44:03.059 --> 00:44:05.940
You know, is it a forced perspective model or something that

913
00:44:05.940 --> 00:44:07.079
they're watching from the cliff?

914
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.719
Yeah, yeah, they're watching from the cliff looks the same.

915
00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:14.099
Like the art director was very clearly told. look at that Yeah

916
00:44:14.099 --> 00:44:14.280
yeah.

917
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:15.119
The comic strip.

918
00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:17.880
It is a shame in some ways that that didn't extend to the

919
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:21.599
interiors because I think that big room that the Daleks are in is

920
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:22.860
basically just a big room.

921
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:27.780
Whereas it does extend to the interiors because the doorways...

922
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:29.159
Yeah, it does get doors.

923
00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:30.179
It's coming down on the angles.

924
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:31.920
But that one big control room.

925
00:44:31.980 --> 00:44:36.360
I just wanted to be the control room from the Dalek with the Rell

926
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:37.920
counter and all that kind of stuff.

927
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:43.800
What it does have is the dramatically sloped Ken Adam roof, like

928
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:45.360
the Ken Adam ceiling and thing.

929
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:47.039
So it is a sort of a piece.

930
00:44:47.099 --> 00:44:52.079
But those doors which come down in a sort of arc and they kind of

931
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.099
make the same noise?

932
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:54.840
They kind of...

933
00:44:54.900 --> 00:44:57.960
Well, of course, the sound effect that we do get, apart from the

934
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:01.980
normal Dalek heartbeat, which always turns up, is the destiny of

935
00:45:01.980 --> 00:45:03.059
the Dalek's alarm.

936
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:08.159
So when the Missy and Clara are in the, well, they're not in a

937
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:10.440
spacecraft, but they're actually in a building, aren't they?

938
00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:12.360
But it sets the alarm off.

939
00:45:12.420 --> 00:45:13.380
It is absolutely that.

940
00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:15.900
It's that really high pitched drink?

941
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:17.760
so great.

942
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:19.739
So good.

943
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:20.579
So good.

944
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:27.059
I was going to ask what you guys all think about having all the

945
00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:30.599
different sort of Dalek models, the different types of Dalek

946
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:32.880
together because we don't generally see that.

947
00:45:32.940 --> 00:45:36.360
You get all the bronze ones or in other stories in Death to the

948
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.739
Daleks, they're all silver.

949
00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:42.300
We get different colours for commander Daleks and that sort of

950
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:45.659
thing, but generally, this is really unusual to sort of see

951
00:45:45.659 --> 00:45:46.679
they're all, like, they're all there together.

952
00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:52.260
So I think that what ends up happening is that we've got the new

953
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:55.380
paradigm dialects in Victory of the Dialects and that kind of

954
00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:57.179
stuffs things up a bit.

955
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:02.280
And so when they next come back in asylum of the dialects, we're

956
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:06.539
actually also promised that every dialect ever will appear in

957
00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:06.900
that.

958
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:12.119
And so down on the asylum planet, we get to see lots of different

959
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.420
types of Daleks like we do this time here.

960
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:22.440
I think, again, because he's trying to represent the Daleks as an

961
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:27.179
icon, we have, and we see very early on, don't we?

962
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:30.539
Like the Dalek with the blue bumps and stuff from the original

963
00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:33.840
Daleks, like, so we're kind of taking it back.

964
00:46:33.900 --> 00:46:38.579
And I think notably absent are any paradigm daleks from that shot

965
00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:40.440
are any in there in that control room?

966
00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:41.340
don't think there are.

967
00:46:41.460 --> 00:46:45.960
Yes, in the in the asylum, of course, plot wise, it sort of makes

968
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:48.840
sense that they're all old Daleks that have been...

969
00:46:48.900 --> 00:46:54.840
So yeah, except though, that in a way that when Russell updates

970
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:57.599
the Daleks, it's possible that we could imagine that they were

971
00:46:57.599 --> 00:46:59.340
always kind of meant to look like that.

972
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:02.519
This is what the Daleks look like and now we can afford to realise

973
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.460
it and we don't ever see those past Daleks.

974
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.880
Moffat doesn't do that sort of stuff, which is why, you know, for

975
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:13.980
instance, he'll bring old cybermen back and things like that.

976
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:14.280
Here.

977
00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:17.460
It's, you know, the Daleks are a type of iconography.

978
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:18.539
They have...

979
00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:20.159
It's an interesting sci-fi thing, isn't it?

980
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:23.039
Were the Klingons in Star Trek always supposed to look like that

981
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:23.880
or were they?

982
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:24.659
You know, it's like that.

983
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:28.079
Is it just the limitations of 60s telly?

984
00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:31.260
It's the way they update the Borg, say, for 1st contact where they

985
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:33.960
do have the same silhouette and look the same, but it's an

986
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:37.380
entirely superior makeup job as opposed to just whacking on some

987
00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:37.920
white makeup.

988
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:40.559
Well, I mean, you know, the Klingons thing is something that they

989
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.099
just make a joke about, remember, in Deep Space Nine.

990
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:46.320
Trouble tribulation?

991
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:48.300
Yeah, they have warfare to say we don't talk about that.

992
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:53.159
And they try and repair it in enterprise and now, of course

993
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:55.920
Strangely Worlds has completely thrown that out the window as

994
00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:56.099
well.

995
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:58.920
It's funnier when it's a joke, I think, because actually, we all

996
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:00.420
know what the real world is.

997
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:01.619
Yeah, that's right.

998
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.400
And so I think Moffat does that because, like in some sense, I

999
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.280
think the paradigm Daleks put him in a sort of weird position.

1000
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:11.579
Like if he's just going to do Daleks, what's he going to do?

1001
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:13.079
Is he going to do paradigm dialects?

1002
00:48:13.139 --> 00:48:15.780
Well, there's one of them left or something?

1003
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:20.519
Well, I know he said, because this is the 1st time in quite a

1004
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:22.440
while we've had a story on Scaro.

1005
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:29.519
And so, you know, he wanted to sort of portray them like a race.

1006
00:48:29.579 --> 00:48:31.019
So they're all different.

1007
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:34.800
So if you always just have all bronze Daleks, all paradise.

1008
00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:37.199
There is that kind of idea that they're all sort of identical and

1009
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:41.579
they are kind of almost sort of clone type things, you know, like

1010
00:48:41.579 --> 00:48:44.159
soft robots kind of haven't really been.

1011
00:48:44.219 --> 00:48:46.800
But yes, but if you have them together, you know, that actually

1012
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.219
does make them feel more like a race, there are differences.

1013
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:53.639
Also, in production terms.

1014
00:48:53.699 --> 00:48:58.019
He'd been disappointed with the with how he'd been able to use all

1015
00:48:58.019 --> 00:48:59.579
of those Daleks in the previous story.

1016
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:01.260
Yeah, right.

1017
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:01.679
Yeah.

1018
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:05.219
Well, there's a story about that because I think they were

1019
00:49:05.219 --> 00:49:08.820
shooting in 2 different studios at the time they were doing some

1020
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:13.320
stuff at upper boat and some stuff down by the other rope lock.

1021
00:49:13.380 --> 00:49:19.019
And for some of the key scenes, because they mention Daleks on

1022
00:49:19.019 --> 00:49:21.840
Spiradon and all that.

1023
00:49:21.900 --> 00:49:24.780
But they were in the wrong studio for that.

1024
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:28.380
So that's why it was a cock up, basically, but the Daleks that

1025
00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:31.139
they needed for some of those scenes weren't in the right place at

1026
00:49:31.139 --> 00:49:32.159
the right time.

1027
00:49:32.219 --> 00:49:34.739
And it would have just cost, you know, it just been too disruptive

1028
00:49:34.739 --> 00:49:37.260
to have, um, to have transported them.

1029
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:39.599
So it was a shame you didn't you don't really get to see them in

1030
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:40.739
the moments where you want to see them.

1031
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:44.760
And so you get the special weapons dialect, too, which we had sort

1032
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.880
of been promised in asylum.

1033
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:51.840
Does it appear in the background somewhere, but we get it a little

1034
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:53.579
bit more foregrounded here, which is pretty great.

1035
00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:57.300
Having them all together in those scenes, even though obviously

1036
00:49:57.300 --> 00:50:01.320
they've been updated immaculately for the 21st century, just makes

1037
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:05.460
me appreciate the style and the elegance of those original 60s

1038
00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:06.059
dialects.

1039
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:07.739
Silver and the blue balls.

1040
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:10.619
It's just that dalek is incredible.

1041
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:14.219
I mean, I think Russell's update is very good, but what it

1042
00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:16.860
actually maintains is the profile.

1043
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:17.940
The silhouette.

1044
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:19.559
Yeah, yeah, the silhouette is right.

1045
00:50:19.619 --> 00:50:24.900
But, you know, if you think about the Daleks as an alien race, then

1046
00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:28.440
having different versions of them coexisting on the same planet

1047
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:30.119
works and stuff.

1048
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:33.179
But if you think of the Daleks as a thing that's appeared on your

1049
00:50:33.179 --> 00:50:37.500
telly for the last 50 years, that's an even more urgent reason, I

1050
00:50:37.500 --> 00:50:40.500
think, to have lots of different versions of them throughout

1051
00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:40.739
that.

1052
00:50:41.340 --> 00:50:42.179
Of course both, yeah.

1053
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.460
It's a real, it's an interesting thing, and I don't know whether

1054
00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:48.239
as we're all Doctor Who fans, and we kind of, you know, notice

1055
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:52.920
Daleks looking different, and sometimes very different, but are

1056
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:53.639
they that different, really?

1057
00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:57.300
There was the whole idea about, do the Daleks look too ridiculous

1058
00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:59.340
for a 2005 audience anyway?

1059
00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:02.099
You know, actually, clearly it worked.

1060
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:06.599
But if you put in the magician's apprentice, you know, a 60s Dalek

1061
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:08.880
on screen, are people really going to go?

1062
00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:12.659
That one looks, looks wrong or looks, I think we overthink this a

1063
00:51:12.659 --> 00:51:12.900
little bit.

1064
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:16.559
Yeah, they just all look like Daleks, as Trini and or Susanna

1065
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:18.480
would say, design classic.

1066
00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:23.639
I mean, there's so much effort in that Dalek story, the Shaman

1067
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:24.360
Dalek story.

1068
00:51:24.420 --> 00:51:29.219
So much effort goes towards making them not ridiculous, like to

1069
00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:33.059
make them credible, not just in the look, but also in the way they

1070
00:51:33.059 --> 00:51:35.820
behave, in the script sort of generally, I think.

1071
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.699
And you know, I think this story is doing that to Davros as well

1072
00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:42.840
because Davros has been oversaturated with the audience to such an

1073
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:46.619
extent that he's just become a ranting dictator in a Dalek chair.

1074
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:52.139
And what this does is bring him back to being a character who sits

1075
00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:56.280
opposite the doctor and interacts as a character rather than as

1076
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:58.619
Davros, who the audience knows.

1077
00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:00.420
It's funny, isn't it, too?

1078
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.260
Because, you know, Missy has every right, as she points out, to be

1079
00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:07.920
regarded as the doctor's arch nemesis, but she's kind of just sort

1080
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:11.639
of prancing about and being hilarious and stuff and not actually

1081
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:13.079
doing that.

1082
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:15.599
Yeah, she doesn't have a plan in this tour.

1083
00:52:15.659 --> 00:52:16.920
She's just along for the ride.

1084
00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

1085
00:52:17.940 --> 00:52:21.599
They are the best master appearances when he or she is just along

1086
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:22.019
for the ride.

1087
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:22.619
Oh, yeah.

1088
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:23.099
Yeah, yeah.

1089
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:26.880
It's also a story where the daleks get talked about quite a bit

1090
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:27.719
before they turn up.

1091
00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:30.960
I mean, of course, the Daleks are obviously, you can't do the

1092
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:34.079
story without the Daleks, but it's, you know, easier to dialect

1093
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:34.320
story.

1094
00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:37.500
They don't turn up until 5 minutes from the end pretty much.

1095
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:40.380
But throughout the story.

1096
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:44.400
Obviously, the whole point is, you know, that this is this is the

1097
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:49.079
guy who created this, you know, absolutely destructive force

1098
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:50.820
that's had such an effect on the universe.

1099
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:52.860
It's actually pretty great.

1100
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:57.179
You know, the original run of the new series with Russell

1101
00:52:57.179 --> 00:53:01.619
introduces all the kind of major antagonists in order, doesn't

1102
00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:01.860
it?

1103
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:05.639
The Daleks, the cybermen, the master Davros.

1104
00:53:05.699 --> 00:53:09.840
And don't forget the Santarians, obviously.

1105
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:11.219
That's where Alan series fell.

1106
00:53:11.219 --> 00:53:11.820
And the macra.

1107
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:12.420
It does two.

1108
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:14.099
That's out of order.

1109
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:19.139
But for the people who are just watching the new series.

1110
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:24.000
The Daleks are around quite a bit before Davros actually arrives.

1111
00:53:24.059 --> 00:53:29.280
There's that nice little illusion to him in to Van Staten in Dalek

1112
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:29.639
isn't it?

1113
00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:33.360
You know, that Christopher Ecklson's doctor doesn't name him, but

1114
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:34.320
we know who he's talking about.

1115
00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:37.260
Yeah, I think all of that, that is really good.

1116
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:42.719
And so we've reestablished after, you know, the mid 70s that the

1117
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:45.599
Daleks work without Davrost.

1118
00:53:45.659 --> 00:53:47.039
But I mean, this is Davros.

1119
00:53:47.099 --> 00:53:50.159
This is a Davro story much, much more than it's a dalek story.

1120
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:56.099
And that's who the writer is interested in, I think.

1121
00:53:56.159 --> 00:54:04.920
I actually think that the scenes where Missy and Clara and then

1122
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:10.019
the TARDIS are all sort of destroyed one by one and making Capoldi

1123
00:54:10.019 --> 00:54:14.039
act that is a bit of a stretch.

1124
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:16.380
We know, do you know what I mean?

1125
00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:17.460
We know that it's not real.

1126
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:21.000
Well, we know that we're in towards the end of episode one of a 13

1127
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:24.659
part or 12 part series, the doctor doesn't know where he is in the

1128
00:54:24.659 --> 00:54:24.900
season.

1129
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:28.980
Or what's going on, does he?

1130
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:30.239
I mean, he believes it.

1131
00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:31.619
Yeah.

1132
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:33.480
It's interesting, isn't it?

1133
00:54:33.539 --> 00:54:34.380
I mean, he doesn't have.

1134
00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:38.219
I mean, maybe he maybe he should think that, you know, Missy would

1135
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:40.500
be smarter that she's figured something out.

1136
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:44.820
Clara, you know, could potentially just, you know, Clara isn't

1137
00:54:44.820 --> 00:54:47.579
going to have had some clever plan to have got around this, but

1138
00:54:47.579 --> 00:54:52.320
Missy, you know, we literally saw in the last story that she sort

1139
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:53.460
of zapped and is still around.

1140
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:54.300
Yes, yeah.

1141
00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:55.199
And it's the same trick.

1142
00:54:55.739 --> 00:54:59.039
Well, in fact, the next episode opens with a sort of extended

1143
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:03.780
thing on how that's the trick, which is pretty brilliant and

1144
00:55:03.780 --> 00:55:06.599
leaves it open to kind of happen again all the time if it needs

1145
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:06.960
to.

1146
00:55:07.019 --> 00:55:12.599
Yeah, I just kind of think, you know, in the bit in Romeo and

1147
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:16.500
Juliet, where Juliet dies, she takes the poison and her family

1148
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:17.880
thinks she's dead.

1149
00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:21.900
Shakespeare doesn't attempt to kind of make them credibly sad

1150
00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:22.500
about it.

1151
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:26.519
He does a comic scene where they're all kind of massive rat bags

1152
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:31.679
about it and being very silly because the audience knows that

1153
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:34.380
she's not dead because they've hurt the plot.

1154
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:38.400
And so we can't do proper grief, because that would kind of spoil

1155
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:41.400
the ending where we get sort of proper grief. sort of here to

1156
00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:41.639
happen.

1157
00:55:41.699 --> 00:55:48.119
I just think that Capaldi struggles to sell the Clara and Missy

1158
00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:53.340
are really dead because we just know that they're not, and Capaldi

1159
00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:56.460
knows they're not, and it really, it's only the doctor that's in

1160
00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:56.760
the dark.

1161
00:55:56.820 --> 00:55:57.420
Oh, we agree.

1162
00:55:57.420 --> 00:55:58.679
It's the script.

1163
00:55:58.739 --> 00:55:59.820
That's it.

1164
00:55:59.880 --> 00:56:00.780
I would agree.

1165
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:02.699
It's chafing against that Doctor Who thing.

1166
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:05.760
We're willing to go along with the cliffhanger where the doctor or

1167
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:09.119
the companion is in danger because there's no big buildup from the

1168
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:10.139
other characters around it.

1169
00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:13.380
Whereas when you actually make that the focal and give the doctor

1170
00:56:13.380 --> 00:56:17.039
credible grief about it, you start to think, well, clearly it

1171
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.320
hasn't happened. why are we watching this?

1172
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:22.440
And I know that that's the point of driving him to the point where

1173
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:23.519
he is in the story.

1174
00:56:23.579 --> 00:56:28.139
But as an audience member and your relationship to cliffhangers

1175
00:56:28.139 --> 00:56:31.260
and what happens with them, it's a little, yeah.

1176
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:35.639
And so the cliffhanger is that we think that his grief has caused

1177
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:41.579
him to go back and actually shoot Baby Davros at...

1178
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:41.880
Yeah.

1179
00:56:46.019 --> 00:56:48.840
He should have been played by Rory Jennings.

1180
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:50.579
He still looked young enough.

1181
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:55.139
Is that kid been in other things or do I just know him because

1182
00:56:55.139 --> 00:56:57.659
I've watched this particular episode quite a lot?

1183
00:56:57.719 --> 00:56:58.500
No?

1184
00:56:58.500 --> 00:57:00.000
I don't know him from anything else.

1185
00:57:00.059 --> 00:57:00.840
Should I Google?

1186
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:02.579
My name is Davros.

1187
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:03.599
Davros.

1188
00:57:03.659 --> 00:57:04.679
I think he's pretty good.

1189
00:57:04.739 --> 00:57:08.519
I don't think Todd has anything to complain about with this shot.

1190
00:57:08.579 --> 00:57:09.719
And yet he will.

1191
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:36.480
Well, this now, we're obstacle roller skating in a quarry, so

1192
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:37.980
that's all the time we have for this week.

1193
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:42.539
We'll be back next week for an inevitably revolting revolution in

1194
00:57:42.539 --> 00:57:43.980
the Witches familiar.

1195
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:47.699
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1196
00:57:47.699 --> 00:57:50.639
and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, where

1197
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:53.699
you'll find all our social media links, as well as links to our

1198
00:57:53.699 --> 00:57:57.480
other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody IntoTera, Maximum Power, and

1199
00:57:57.480 --> 00:57:59.159
Untitled Star Trek project.

1200
00:57:59.219 --> 00:58:03.360
Until next time, enjoy your flight, and try not to get too excited

1201
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.099
by the artificial gravity.

1202
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:07.619
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1203
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:08.460
Good night.

1204
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:09.119
Good night.

1205
00:58:09.179 --> 00:58:09.900
Good night.

1206
00:58:19.019 --> 00:58:21.840
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1207
00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:23.940
Griffiths, James Selwood, and Tom Spielsbury.

1208
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:26.039
Name arrangement by Cameron Lam.

1209
00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:29.219
This episode, Making My Head Hurt, was recorded on the 30th of

1210
00:58:29.219 --> 00:58:32.579
July, 2023, and released on the 17th of September.

1211
00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:37.500
If Snogging Jane Austen isn't to your taste, and why would it be?

1212
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:39.780
Other regency novelists are also available?

1213
00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:44.099
Things that I've heard about Sir Walter Scott would make your toes

1214
00:58:44.099 --> 00:58:44.820
curl.

1215
00:58:51.900 --> 00:58:53.760
Yeah what do you think?

1216
00:58:53.820 --> 00:58:55.260
I think that's fine.

1217
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:58.019
And also, I want to get some brunch before Tom at the airport.

1218
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:00.599
Yeah, does anyone want to say anything that I can drop back in

1219
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:00.960
or?

1220
00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:04.920
Because we talked about a few things you're saying mentioned, but

1221
00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:06.119
I think you probably mentioned most of them now.

1222
00:59:06.179 --> 00:59:08.280
Yeah, that was just conversation.

1223
00:59:08.340 --> 00:59:09.599
Yeah.

1224
00:59:09.659 --> 00:59:10.440
Yeah.

1225
00:59:10.500 --> 00:59:11.880
I liked it though.

1226
00:59:11.940 --> 00:59:16.079
It was nice to come back to it and it was not one that I've

1227
00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:22.019
probably seen since it went out and yeah, he's got a few flaws, but

1228
00:59:22.019 --> 00:59:23.880
I think it was it was pretty entertaining.

1229
00:59:23.940 --> 00:59:24.960
You know, it's funny.

1230
00:59:25.019 --> 00:59:29.460
I've tried to watch series 9 a few times because as I've said, it's

1231
00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:31.559
the one I know the least well.

1232
00:59:31.619 --> 00:59:38.099
And I've usually watched the Magician's Apprentice and then not

1233
00:59:38.099 --> 00:59:38.940
gone on.

1234
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:41.099
And not because of the quality of it because I'm kind of terrible

1235
00:59:41.099 --> 00:59:44.280
at kind of just sticking to something like that.

1236
00:59:44.340 --> 00:59:47.039
So this is the one that I've seen a bunch of times.

1237
00:59:47.099 --> 00:59:49.500
This, and obviously I've gone back and seen heaven sent a bunch of

1238
00:59:49.500 --> 00:59:49.920
times.

1239
00:59:49.980 --> 00:59:51.960
Is it an odd story to start a season with?

1240
00:59:52.019 --> 00:59:53.099
Do you think?

1241
00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:56.940
Yeah, a little bit, but does it Yeah, does it feel like it should

1242
00:59:56.940 --> 00:59:59.940
be the big 1st 2 parter at sort of episodes 4 and five?

1243
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:03.360
So, no, but Moffatt never does only once.

1244
01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:06.000
Only once, I think, does Moffat?

1245
01:00:06.059 --> 01:00:08.039
Oh, the 11th hour is different.

1246
01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:09.960
It doesn't count because it's a new doctor.

1247
01:00:10.019 --> 01:00:12.119
But it's only Bells of St.

1248
01:00:12.119 --> 01:00:15.659
John where he does an RTD style season opener, isn't it?

1249
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:20.400
Yeah, I mean, I have a theory that, um, you know, they got he, this

1250
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:22.860
idea of having, we're going to, they're all going to be 2 partters

1251
01:00:22.860 --> 01:00:25.860
and it's not quite because sleep no more is definitely on its own

1252
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:29.039
but it's sort of... 2 partters.

1253
01:00:29.099 --> 01:00:31.920
Some are definite, 2 parters, some are a bit more linked.

1254
01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:32.699
Yeah, yeah.

1255
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:37.500
Um, but I think perhaps the season would be structured better if

1256
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:41.699
you started with the girl who died because you need, it's, it's, um

1257
01:00:41.699 --> 01:00:45.420
introduces a shilder who is going to be there for a week.

1258
01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:48.119
It odd that she only gets introduced halfway through the season.

1259
01:00:48.179 --> 01:00:51.179
I think it makes more sense to introduce her in episode one.

1260
01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:55.139
And then at the midpoint of the season, you do the woman who

1261
01:00:55.139 --> 01:00:55.679
lived.

1262
01:00:56.219 --> 01:00:58.260
Because then you really get the idea that...

1263
01:00:58.320 --> 01:00:59.099
That it's been a long time.

1264
01:00:59.159 --> 01:00:59.880
Yeah, yeah.

1265
01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:02.099
And so the Dalek two-parter.

1266
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:06.239
The Davro's two-parter, I think, should be, you know, sort of in 3

1267
01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:09.780
and 4 or something or, you know, or if you, I suppose you couldn't

1268
01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:11.699
be there because you need another, because they're all 2 parters.

1269
01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:15.119
But yeah, you could you could maybe have the...

1270
01:01:15.179 --> 01:01:18.059
And then 4 and 5 being the Davros story.

1271
01:01:18.059 --> 01:01:19.380
And then the woman who lived.

1272
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:22.920
Because I think, I know this isn't particularly a point about the

1273
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:27.119
Davros story per se, but you then would have the idea that, oh, my

1274
01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:28.679
God, I'd forgotten all about a shilder.

1275
01:01:28.739 --> 01:01:34.559
Yeah, um, you know, and then, I mean, I think that would just be a

1276
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:35.880
better structure for the season.

1277
01:01:35.880 --> 01:01:38.039
Yeah, having the 2 next to one another is a little bit like the

1278
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:39.000
arc, though, isn't it?

1279
01:01:39.059 --> 01:01:39.780
It's a bit like.

1280
01:01:40.260 --> 01:01:42.239
Well, I think I think they fell in love with the idea that they're

1281
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:43.679
all going to be prepared episodes.

1282
01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:48.119
I mean, this works as an opener because it's reestablishing the

1283
01:01:48.119 --> 01:01:50.460
doctor and Clara, you know, showing us where they are.

1284
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:52.199
It's a blockbuster opening.

1285
01:01:52.260 --> 01:01:53.940
It was to try and...

1286
01:01:53.940 --> 01:01:55.559
Yeah, because the dark...

1287
01:01:55.559 --> 01:01:57.539
Yeah, and get big raped and stuff.

1288
01:01:57.599 --> 01:01:59.820
Yeah, and it's got Davros in it, but we're not allowed to mention

1289
01:01:59.820 --> 01:02:00.179
it.

1290
01:02:00.300 --> 01:02:02.159
Well, this was the season.

1291
01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:03.480
Art Malik in it?

1292
01:02:03.780 --> 01:02:05.699
The kids love him.

1293
01:02:06.659 --> 01:02:09.780
It's like an album track listing, isn't it?

1294
01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:12.719
Like it can make such an, it can have such an impact on how you

1295
01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:15.659
enjoy a collection of music or in this case episodes.

1296
01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:18.300
If it had been rearranged a bit, it might actually have worked.

1297
01:02:18.420 --> 01:02:21.780
The season that they had a trailer where they put the line, same

1298
01:02:21.780 --> 01:02:23.039
old, same old...

1299
01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:26.340
The doctor and Clara, which is from part 2 of the...

1300
01:02:26.340 --> 01:02:29.579
And I think that's was inadvisable.

1301
01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:35.219
I think it would have been sensible to have, you know, got Davros

1302
01:02:35.219 --> 01:02:35.699
back.

1303
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:38.699
He's a character that even people who don't know Doctor Who that

1304
01:02:38.699 --> 01:02:40.079
well will remember and recognise.

1305
01:02:40.139 --> 01:02:40.619
Yeah.

1306
01:02:40.619 --> 01:02:42.360
That's your hook.

1307
01:02:42.420 --> 01:02:43.260
That your selling point.

1308
01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:43.980
Is it didn't do it?

1309
01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:47.219
Are we trying not to spoil the surprise of the opener because I

1310
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:51.719
don't think knowing that Davros is back is necessarily going to

1311
01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:52.800
spoil that surprise.

1312
01:02:52.860 --> 01:02:55.860
I mean, if you if you genuinely don't know who's back at all, then

1313
01:02:55.860 --> 01:02:59.460
I suppose you get more of a surprise when the kid says Davros.

1314
01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:01.380
Yeah, but I don't think you're expecting anything.

1315
01:03:01.380 --> 01:03:02.579
It's only 2 minutes in.

1316
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:06.599
I think I think that's a, um, that was a trade-off that wasn't

1317
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:06.900
worth making.

1318
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:08.099
Yeah, yeah.

1319
01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:11.579
I mean, I think they should have used that advertising ploy all

1320
01:03:11.579 --> 01:03:12.000
the time.

1321
01:03:12.059 --> 01:03:13.380
Can you imagine for the war machines?

1322
01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:15.179
The doctor and Dodo in the TARDS.

1323
01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:17.159
Same old, same old.

1324
01:03:19.380 --> 01:03:24.239
I think this, my impression of this episode, this 2 pastor, in

1325
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:29.340
fact, has always been that it was less than the sum of its parts

1326
01:03:29.340 --> 01:03:32.280
but actually watching again, it is that, but the parts are pretty

1327
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:32.880
great.

1328
01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:33.360
Yeah.

1329
01:03:33.420 --> 01:03:37.380
This is actually one of my favourite of Moffat's season Opers.

1330
01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:37.739
Okay.

1331
01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:40.019
And despite its structural flaws.

1332
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:41.639
It's just a joy to watch.

1333
01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:46.079
It is a thing that I'm always asking for and then it comes along

1334
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.019
and it's kind of like, you know, like I always want there to be

1335
01:03:49.019 --> 01:03:52.380
Boomtown or in the forest of the night where nothing very much

1336
01:03:52.380 --> 01:03:55.559
happens and we're just hanging out with the characters for, you

1337
01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:58.199
know, 45 minutes or whatever.

1338
01:03:58.260 --> 01:03:59.639
And I mean, this is sort of that.

1339
01:03:59.699 --> 01:04:00.840
It's checking in with it.

1340
01:04:00.900 --> 01:04:03.719
Part 2 is just 4 speaking parts from the Daleks.

1341
01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:04.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1342
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:06.840
And even part one, it's pretty superficial.

1343
01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:07.199
Yes.

1344
01:04:07.260 --> 01:04:10.679
I mean, you've kind of forgotten Kate Lebridge Stewart's in it.

1345
01:04:10.739 --> 01:04:12.960
Usually when she's even on screen.

1346
01:04:13.019 --> 01:04:13.800
That's right.

1347
01:04:13.860 --> 01:04:15.599
I struggle to remember when she was in the show.

1348
01:04:16.739 --> 01:04:18.119
Wow.

1349
01:04:20.099 --> 01:04:22.920
We kick her a lot, don't we?

1350
01:04:23.579 --> 01:04:25.800
She's retired from acting.

1351
01:04:25.860 --> 01:04:27.300
It's just pin money, love.

1352
01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:31.139
And there's one of the other characters.

1353
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:32.039
Is it played by Jay?

1354
01:04:32.099 --> 01:04:33.059
is it Jay Griffiths?

1355
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:33.480
Yes.

1356
01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:37.440
And she's backing on the side. and gets killed, I think.

1357
01:04:37.500 --> 01:04:40.860
It's great too, because that's the version of unit where it's all

1358
01:04:40.860 --> 01:04:42.719
women and they don't remark on it.

1359
01:04:42.780 --> 01:04:47.940
It's, you know, Rebecca Front and her and, um, and, you know, um

1360
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:49.380
Miss Redgrave.

1361
01:04:49.380 --> 01:04:53.699
And it's just the non-speaking. soldiers that get killed by

1362
01:04:53.699 --> 01:04:54.059
missing.

1363
01:04:54.119 --> 01:04:54.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1364
01:04:54.900 --> 01:04:55.980
And that's pretty awesome.

1365
01:04:56.039 --> 01:04:56.940
That's kind of great.

1366
01:04:57.000 --> 01:04:58.619
It's like, you know, Strangely Worlds.

1367
01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:02.159
Like I was halfway through series 2 of Strange 2 Worlds when I

1368
01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:06.059
realised that there are 3 men in the opening titles and 5 women

1369
01:05:06.059 --> 01:05:09.480
and it's kind of like, oh, yeah, that really is a lot better.

1370
01:05:09.539 --> 01:05:10.199
Let's have that.

1371
01:05:11.219 --> 01:05:18.119
No, I mean, not the opening titles in the same way, but that's

1372
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:19.860
true of the original series, though.

1373
01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:21.539
There are lots of women in it.

1374
01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:23.760
They just don't play a significant part.

1375
01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:27.900
Yeah, yeah, but unit was all men, you know, except for Katie

1376
01:05:27.900 --> 01:05:28.380
really.

1377
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:29.579
Corporal Bell.

1378
01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:33.480
Oh, and Corporal Bell, who Kate gives a brain injury in a car

1379
01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:39.780
accident too, is... before the cause of accent.

1380
01:05:39.900 --> 01:05:42.119
Not before, after the clause of acts.

1381
01:05:42.179 --> 01:05:44.940
Kate Orman, not Kate Methry.

1382
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:45.780
So mean.

1383
01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:48.599
I was going to think...

1384
01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:52.079
Have I missed a triple episode somewhere on the way?

1385
01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:56.340
All right, let's, well, I'll press stop.