WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:44:26 1 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:48.899 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that did mean to imply that we don't care. 2 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:50.759 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:52.079 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:52.140 --> 00:00:53.159 I'm Peter. 5 00:00:53.219 --> 00:00:54.359 I'm Simon. 6 00:00:54.420 --> 00:01:05.459 Well, it's our 1st underwater base for more than 30 years, both diagetically and extra digetically, and this time we're up against, I don't know, ghosts or something. 7 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:11.579 So let's see what sort of predestination paradoxes we can get ourselves into in under the lake. 8 00:01:34.379 --> 00:01:49.620 So, this episode gets me thinking of the history of bases under siege in the new series, and given that I don't expect to have very much to say about this 2 parter, I thought that we might just compare it to some things. 9 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:52.079 So what do we have? 10 00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:59.099 I want to say Impossible Planner, Waters of Mars, 42, what else? 11 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:01.439 The gangers two-parter? 12 00:02:01.500 --> 00:02:04.500 Ganga's 2-parter, and maybe last Christmas. 13 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:07.799 Where do we where do we want to rank this? 14 00:02:07.859 --> 00:02:14.460 I mean, I don't think this is as dramatically awful as the gang is two-part, I don't think it does. 15 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:17.280 I don't think. 16 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:19.199 Simon, are you saying that's baseless criticism? 17 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:35.939 I don't think it's very good because using as a comparison, Impossible Planet and the Satan pit, which made something really beautiful and interesting and elegiic out of what it included and made its characters really interesting and all stand out. 18 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:40.500 You knew who they were, and they were finally drawn 10 minutes after they'd been introduced. 19 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:45.659 With this, it's just moving those pieces around and creating something that's really quite bland, I think, nothing stands out. 20 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:48.360 I think bland is probably a little bit harsh. 21 00:02:48.419 --> 00:02:51.419 I think it's fine. 22 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:55.319 I enjoyed it actually more than I was expecting to. 23 00:02:55.379 --> 00:03:04.979 Not that I disliked it the 1st time round, but I did find it a little bit tiresome the 1st time round, but this time I thought, oh, that was diverting, entertaining, and I was drawn into it. 24 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:06.000 I certainly wasn't bored by it. 25 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.219 I really like this one. 26 00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:15.900 I loved it at the time. and watching it again this week. 27 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:30.000 I found that like some of Stephen Moffatt's more time travel-based and paradox-based plots, it doesn't so much reward repeat viewing as you just go, oh, I hadn't noticed that before. 28 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:44.699 So I do think it has somewhat diminishing returns, but that initial viewing and the fact that we're doing a time paradox, which is something Doctor Who doesn't do to this level so very often, I found highly entertaining. 29 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:51.599 And I'm actually going to disagree with Peter that I think the characterisations of these characters. 30 00:03:51.719 --> 00:04:01.620 I will agree they're not as well drawn as the Satan Pitt uh two-parter, which is one of the best stories of Tenet's entire era, in my opinion. 31 00:04:02.219 --> 00:04:05.939 I do think the way the characters are drawn serves a particular purpose. 32 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:13.500 I think you're right, Brendan, but I think that I don't like it when I can see that each character has a particular purpose. 33 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:14.280 Do you know what I mean? 34 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:19.800 Like, I want to, I want to have the, and I know that in writing, obviously, characters are created with a purpose to drive plot and so on like that. 35 00:04:19.860 --> 00:04:25.920 But I want to have the illusion that it's somehow random that these people have just come together and this story unfolds. 36 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:32.100 And I find it a little bit too mannered in that way or maybe not mannered is the right word, prepared. functioning. 37 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:32.939 Yes, exactly. 38 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:43.980 I have to say that there is a big gap between the 2 Russell T. Davies bases under siege because I think the waters of Mars has very strongly drawn characters as well. 39 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.879 I think perhaps he doesn't quite reach the heights he does in Satan Pitt. 40 00:04:47.939 --> 00:05:06.720 But one of the features of the Moffat era is that the one off characters in the episodes are actually never all that memorable and he prefers to give most of the interesting drama to the regular characters, which is different from how Doctor Who is in the classic era, for instance. 41 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:13.439 And so here I actually did find myself surprised on this watch through that the characters are quite well drawn. 42 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:21.839 I had no difficulty working out what their names were, or even how many of them there were, which was a problem in the gang is too far. 43 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:27.420 Even without the 2 sets of carrots. right. right. 44 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:36.180 So I did like these characters and particularly Lun, who I just think is beautiful and adorable. 45 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:36.959 Isn't he cute? 46 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:37.980 Yeah, wonderful. 47 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.980 And I also liked O'Donnell. 48 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:49.860 I think she's really sort of likeable and she seems to be kind of drawn as, you know, a bit tough, hard as nails and stuff in part two. 49 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:55.139 But in this part, she's sort of mostly fangirling and being funny and calling Pritchard an idiot. 50 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:57.240 I think she's really great. 51 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:04.079 And I also think we get extra points for having Pritchard's 1st name on his IDB Richard. 52 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:05.879 So he's Richard Pritchard. 53 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:09.480 For those of you who've seen broken news. 54 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:11.160 But I did think that was great. 55 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:17.519 And there was a little moment where I wasn't sure whether Clara was calling out Richard or Pritchard over the communications thing. 56 00:06:17.579 --> 00:06:20.279 So that's all sort of terribly cute. 57 00:06:20.339 --> 00:06:22.439 So I did think that they were actually quite well drawn. 58 00:06:22.500 --> 00:06:28.620 What I think is that it's really thin, in terms of having a solid idea. 59 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:39.600 And like, I think the gang is two-parter has the potential for a really, really seriously solid idea about identity and stuff. 60 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:40.920 And we talked about it at the time. 61 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:43.259 It doesn't quite do it. 62 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:47.879 It doesn't quite kind of get there, but it's got a really solid idea. 63 00:06:47.939 --> 00:06:52.920 And I think the base is a little bit more interesting. 64 00:06:52.980 --> 00:06:56.339 You know, like it's a castle for no reason, which we said was weird. 65 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:58.199 There's acid everywhere. 66 00:06:58.259 --> 00:06:58.860 Again. 67 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:03.300 Like it was just an ugly and off-putting setting in a sort of very deliberate way. 68 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:08.819 And while we found it ugly and offputting, It's a bit less generic. 69 00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:16.199 It's a bit less generic than this sort of undersea base, which I think is a great sad. 70 00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:26.339 And like I was thinking of the impossible planet and this, that has a real solidity to it, that the impossible planet set couldn't afford to have, I guess, at the time. 71 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:31.259 That is actually part of the reason why I think the characters blend together for me. 72 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:34.199 I do think they're actually they're drawn okay. 73 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:38.639 And I think the performers do a good job of bringing them to life and differentiating them. 74 00:07:38.699 --> 00:07:41.939 But the visual style is all a little bit samey for me. 75 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:45.180 So the characters are dressed very similarly, which doesn't help. 76 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:50.339 And all of the sets, even though they're quite moody and atmospheric, are only moody and atmospheric. 77 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:52.560 There's no real light and dark in there. 78 00:07:52.620 --> 00:07:57.180 And so it's almost like by the end of 44 minutes. or however long it was. 79 00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:00.720 You're just a bit tired of seeing these same images over and over. 80 00:08:00.779 --> 00:08:03.360 Yeah, they should have set it on sea base four. 81 00:08:03.420 --> 00:08:04.740 I would have loved it. 82 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:09.839 This story would definitely have been improved by a murka breaking. 83 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:10.500 Yeah. 84 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:24.060 But actually, that's an interesting point, Peter, because all it needs is one of the areas whether it's the living quarters or something to be dramatically different, which you can kind of get away with in the sea base, like, okay, this is all the grungy work bits that are just, you know, dark and grungy and so on. 85 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:31.079 But then the little haven that we retreat to when we're having our relaxation is all light and bright with ferns and things, you know. 86 00:08:31.139 --> 00:08:37.980 They could have made the Faraday cage, I think, something really quite different and interesting looking. spend quite a lot of time there, just hanging out. 87 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:45.960 I like the effort they went to, to make it obvious that it's hot down there. because they're all they're all in shorts and some they're in sort of tank tops and so on like that. 88 00:08:46.019 --> 00:08:47.039 And there's a lot of sweat. 89 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:49.559 And I think that actually comes across, comes across quite well. 90 00:08:49.620 --> 00:08:55.440 Sophie Stone, who plays Cass and is hearing impaired, is on the commentary. 91 00:08:55.500 --> 00:09:05.340 And when Toby Withouse is praising how the production team have realised his research into undersea bases, and that's why there's moss everywhere because that actually happens. 92 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:06.000 Right. 93 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.620 What, Tedmos? 94 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.279 And the humidity, as you're talking about side. 95 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:12.480 But when he's talking about that. 96 00:09:12.539 --> 00:09:20.940 Sophie Stone just says, I never want to see any petroleum jelly ever again because the out decision... 97 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:22.799 Oh, of course. petroleum jelly. 98 00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:23.279 Yes. 99 00:09:23.340 --> 00:09:25.379 They don't just spritz them before the tax. 100 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:26.580 They have to, yeah. 101 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.200 They're slathered in it. 102 00:09:28.259 --> 00:09:33.539 And that hanger set is one entire sound stage at Rothlock. 103 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:50.700 And, you know, Toby Withouse is like, it's one thing to write these things and I thought we'd have, you know, a hanger set and then we'd have a control room set, but then Daniel O'Hara, the director comes along and just goes, okay, that's one integrated set and I can shoot through the window here and et cetera, et cetera. 104 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:59.100 Yeah, I think maybe if the mess hall had been a bit warmer. as you would expect, you know, this is the recreation area. 105 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:07.919 Although I do appreciate that in the mess hall, we have a mural of Kirk, Bones and Scotty in a little boat being attacked by the dragon creature. 106 00:10:07.980 --> 00:10:09.480 I didn't notice that. 107 00:10:09.539 --> 00:10:15.960 Yeah, if you look, there's 3 men standing in the boat and they've got like gold shirt, a red shirt, and a blue shirt. 108 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:35.100 Another criticism that I've seen labelled against this is that Colin McFarlane, who is obviously an incredible actor with an amazing career, gets killed off super early on. 109 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:47.820 But I do have to say that I was imagining him enjoying the hell out of playing a scary ghost for the entire 2 parter, so we did miss his performance and he's fantastic. 110 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:50.519 He makes an impression absolutely immediately. 111 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:56.700 And the hilarious thing about him is that he's slathered in petroleum jelly, he's sweaty. 112 00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:58.019 He's chewing gum. 113 00:10:58.139 --> 00:11:02.460 He reads his very working class, but he just talks like a duke. 114 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:06.659 You know, like he's absolutely unbelievable, that accent. 115 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:09.059 And we do lose that voice, which is a shame. 116 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:11.159 He has been in Doctor Who before. 117 00:11:11.220 --> 00:11:12.299 Really? 118 00:11:12.299 --> 00:11:12.659 Which one? 119 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:14.340 He plays the host. 120 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:18.240 He does the voice of the host in Voyage of the Damn. 121 00:11:18.299 --> 00:11:22.080 The incredible posh voice of the host in the voyage of the dad. 122 00:11:22.139 --> 00:11:24.059 And of course, he's in Children of Earth as well. 123 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:31.740 He's the black general who doesn't look like Colin Baker in that. thought you were going to say he was in trial of a time lord or something. 124 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:34.679 That's an amazing thing. 125 00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:47.700 And it's something we've seen this era do before with say Olivia Coleman, who we always come back to because she's Olivia Coleman, you know, casting a huge actor in a small but memorable role. 126 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:58.440 And according to Sophie Stowdon, the commentary, he absolutely loved doing that stunt jumping in front of the flame jet, which was a real flame jet, by the way. 127 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:02.039 It is enhanced in post, but they had a real flame jet on. 128 00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:05.460 And even though it is a small vocal role for him. 129 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:10.500 He loved that his character got to die heroically and doing a bond stunt, basically. 130 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:14.580 Yeah, and then he gets to be a Doctor Who monster, which is kind of fun as well. 131 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:16.019 And he's really relishing it. 132 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.000 There's a great moment, I think. 133 00:12:18.059 --> 00:12:25.259 Like it's not the only reason that Cass is deaf, but one of the things that she does is, of course, Lip Reed, the 2 ghosts. 134 00:12:25.379 --> 00:12:27.840 And it's very well directed. 135 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:32.580 I think this is someone who doesn't direct before or again. 136 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:33.840 Daniel O'Hara. 137 00:12:33.899 --> 00:12:47.759 And what he does is we can't tell what the people are saying until after Cass interprets it, and then we see close-ups, particularly close-ups of Moran's mouth. 138 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:51.179 And he looks super fierce and terrifying at that point, I think. 139 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:54.419 Can I say I actually don't think it's all that well directed? 140 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:55.259 Okay. 141 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:57.360 It's all right. 142 00:12:57.419 --> 00:13:08.100 Like, there's nothing terrible about it, but I think it's a little bit flat in places, which contributes to the feeling of just sort of moving from space to space and there's some visual grammar missing in places. 143 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:14.639 So there's a bit where the doctor and Clara are being menaced early on by the ghosts and then they run away, but you missed the shot of them running away. 144 00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:17.519 So they just kind of like serve land when she's being attacked. 145 00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:21.779 They just leave frame. somewhere else. 146 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.879 But having said that, there are moments of visual beauty. 147 00:13:26.940 --> 00:13:34.200 I think that scene towards the end of the episode where the doctor and Clara are communicating the bulkhead and the water's coming up. 148 00:13:34.259 --> 00:13:34.860 That's really nice. 149 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.980 And even the point at which the water covers her face. 150 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:50.639 Like there's a moment where we're uncertain of our relationship together and the surface of the water is occluding their eyes and then finally, when she does agree that she trusts him, their faces are both visible to one another. 151 00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:53.220 Like, I think it is very, very well done. 152 00:13:53.279 --> 00:14:01.259 Toby Whitehouse has been a bit lucky, I have to say. because he had Nick Curran for the God complex. 153 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.700 He has that incredible guest performance in a town called Mercy. 154 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:11.279 And here where nothing super spectacular is happening in the production. 155 00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:18.000 I think that there's nothing to distract us from the fact that the script is a little bit empty. 156 00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:24.480 And so as I started to say, I think before, there's no real interesting idea here. 157 00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:41.220 So, so I think that the impossible planet has what if a base under siege, but the devil, you know, like I think that that's kind of interesting, I think the waters of Mars has the question of whether the doctor needs to save these people and create unnecessary work for the Wikipedia editors. 158 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:49.139 I think, you know, 42 has something, something, a countdown maps. 159 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.360 But, you know, like that's an idea. 160 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:56.039 But again, that's perhaps the weakest, the other, you know, weakest of the bases under siege. 161 00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:58.679 Can I posit something? 162 00:14:58.740 --> 00:14:59.100 Yeah. 163 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:09.059 I think part of the problem is that like what they sometimes do, the era they sometimes make with these 2 partters in the modern era is that they start the 1st episode as if it's only one episode. 164 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.419 And so too much has happened already. 165 00:15:12.539 --> 00:15:17.460 I think, and this is one of the reasons why I enjoy the gangers 2 parter, um, unlike others. 166 00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:26.759 But also I think one of the reasons why the Impossible Planet is so good is because the menace and the threat takes time to build. 167 00:15:26.820 --> 00:15:27.840 Yeah, right? 168 00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:30.419 It doesn't it doesn't all happen in the pre-credit sequence. 169 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:34.559 Now, you need to do it all in the pre-credit sequence when you've only got 45 minutes to tell the entire story. 170 00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:50.340 But when you've got 90 minutes, even though, yes, the 2nd episode we go back in time and there's a kind of a change, you get this kind of saminess in the middle of this episode because you've gotten into it quicker than you needed to, it would have been much more interesting if the doctor and Clara had have arrived. 171 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:51.059 Who are you? 172 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.460 Stranger, how the hell did you get here, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 173 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:56.460 They found this ship from the bottom of the lake. 174 00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:57.720 We don't know what it is. 175 00:15:57.779 --> 00:15:58.559 We don't know what's going on. 176 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.519 And then Moran is killed and he comes back as a ghost and so on and so on. 177 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:07.919 And so rather than that happening in the pre-credit sequence, that's happened to like after 10 minutes, say, or 15 minutes. 178 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:12.960 And that's one of the reasons why I like the gang is two-parter as well is because it builds in that classic series kind of shape. 179 00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:17.580 They arrive and whilst there's a bit of stuff going on, the true menace hasn't actually arrived yet. 180 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:25.259 It's interesting that there's only one character death after Morans in this episode, and that's Pritchard. 181 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:33.059 And so you've got sort of 40 minutes of just going from place to place and that sequence where they're trying to... 182 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:38.700 Yeah, they're trying to lure the ghosts into the Faraday cage is really long and not that invented. 183 00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:42.000 And also something that we've seen before so many times. 184 00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:43.200 And that's the thing. 185 00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:45.000 I think you're absolutely right, Simon with that. 186 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:54.899 And part of my issue, such as it is with this episode is that it feels like it's taking those things that we've seen before and just moving the puzzle pieces around to create a new episode out of them. 187 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.840 There's nothing that really stands out for me. 188 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:00.720 But can I say something that I really like about it? 189 00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:02.399 Well, things that I really like about it. 190 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.819 Because I do think it is, good television is good, Doctor Who, broadly speaking. 191 00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:11.160 The criticisms I'm making are a bit more nitpicky a bit just a bit. 192 00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:13.500 Oh, look, look, it could have been better if they'd have done this, this and this, right? 193 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:15.599 Okay, that's what all I was kind of saying before. 194 00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:26.220 It is so great to have a really, really creepy image and the image of the ghosts with the black hollowed out eyes is actually quite shocking. 195 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:34.859 And I hope that lots of kids from that era remember that and had nightmares about it because really that's what Doctor Who's supposed to give out. 196 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:44.220 The other thing is it's really refreshing that I love is when the doctor and Clara have arrived and the doctor says, what do you say, I haven't a clue. 197 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:45.180 Isn't that exciting? 198 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.119 And I think, yes, yes, it is. 199 00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:55.920 Yes, it is exciting when the doctor arrives somewhere and doesn't know where they are, doesn't know what's going on and doesn't know anything and has to discover it. 200 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:01.440 And he doesn't go at the kind of the 30 minute mark going, oh, my goodness, I've just realised this is the thing of me, Bob's from Watch McCoy. 201 00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:03.480 And therefore, blah, blah, blah. you know what I mean? 202 00:18:03.539 --> 00:18:08.220 I'm so sick of that, which I know doesn't happen all the time, but I think just happens more often than it should. 203 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:13.019 So I mean, it takes you back to the Hinchcliffe era where the doctor and Sarah would just turn up and have a new adventure every week. 204 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:13.740 Yes. 205 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:14.940 Exactly. 206 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.400 I think it's marvellous seeing Capaldi do this. 207 00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:35.700 I mean, he got a little bit of a go at it in last Christmas and he's really, really fun here, I think, like really properly enjoyable, including kind of identifying the intransigent base commander straight away and just say, well, you know, like, I'm not talking to you or you're clearly an idiot or something like that. 208 00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:38.160 And all of that is really terrifically fun. 209 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:40.019 Well, he's not the base commander. 210 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.519 He's just the guy from the company. 211 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:46.980 But he is the one who's intransigent in the sense that we could have all just left. you know. 212 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.980 But just echoing something you said in the last Christmas episode. 213 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:57.420 But you pointed it out as, well, of course, it's a dream because you've got this perfectly diverse base under siege. set of characters. 214 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.839 But you've got that in every base of the section where the bottom of the era. 215 00:19:00.900 --> 00:19:05.819 You've always got this perfectly ethnically engender diverse group and age diverse group of people. 216 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:10.140 And the most important thing is that the base commander is not a white male. 217 00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:13.259 Not even in this era. 218 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:16.140 We can go back to the 10th planet or the wheeling space in the moon base. 219 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:16.740 Yeah. 220 00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:38.339 Something I really love about the character dynamics in this, and this is what I was alluding to earlier, is the 2 character pairings we end up with Cass and Lunn and O'Donnell and Bennett, both mirror aspects of the Dr. Clara relationship. 221 00:19:38.579 --> 00:19:50.519 So Cass is responsible after the death of Moran for the base and is aggressive in that this is my duty of care and this is what I'm doing. 222 00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:58.259 Meanwhile, you have Lund translating for her in the same way that Clara does for the doctor. 223 00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.279 Yes. 224 00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:04.980 That is a bit that I think goes a little bit far as the little flash cards, the little prompt cards, I think. 225 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:05.519 Right. 226 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:10.440 Actually, it's I quite used to think that joke worked, but it absolutely doesn't. 227 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:12.420 It seemed grinds to a halt. 228 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:14.640 It's a bit that they had to get in. 229 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:15.660 It's not a very funny bit. 230 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:26.819 I think it would have been better if, like, the doctor had turned around, got something out of his pocket, said the line, and then we saw that they were flash cards for when he's in an emotional situation. 231 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.660 You know, if he'd driven it, if he'd gone, oh, okay, no, I know this. 232 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:36.059 But, I mean, both of them kind of shake off the joke and then go back to their acting. 233 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:40.380 Yeah, like you can actually see a moment where Capolda goes, yeah, I'm done with this bit. 234 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:41.640 No, I'm just going to do my acting. 235 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:56.039 You know, yeah, it feels like if it was a stage production, it'd be one of those moments where all the actions stopped and the actor is now kind of effectively addressing the audience directly for the laugh and getting a laugh and then kind of returning to the rest of the scene. 236 00:20:56.099 --> 00:21:04.859 If you're going to do it, you actually, Brendan, your idea is good, but I think the better thing to do is that's just a funny scene and a TARDIS before they've actually left the console room at the beginning. 237 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:05.940 Yeah, yeah. 238 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.559 Even if you flash back to it and say, now, if we encounter someone whose friend has died, what? 239 00:21:10.619 --> 00:21:11.460 Do we say... 240 00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:23.339 But, I mean, one of them is the, you know, I promise that no other people are going to be hypnotised or mortally wounded or killed or eaten or whatever, you know, with all the slashes and stuff. 241 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.839 But the doctor says that all time. 242 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:25.380 Yes, exactly. 243 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.119 You know that. 244 00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:42.000 And in fact, you know, we made a point of that last season in flatline, that that was essentially a doctor-ish thing to do, and we watched Clara do it with that sort of ragtag group of people that she was leading. 245 00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:45.839 And like, I don't, like, you know, I'm not going to complain about this. 246 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:51.599 I'm not going to complain about how no one knows about aliens or spaceships or anything like this, even though it's 2119. 247 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:52.740 Like, who cares? 248 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:53.339 like whatever. 249 00:21:53.460 --> 00:21:59.940 There is a kind of level of character consistency that should span kind of longer than 8 episodes, I think. 250 00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:04.619 The other pairing, of course, is O'Donnell and Bennett. 251 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:15.119 And for me, the doctor companion thing, there is O'Donnell is mirroring the behaviour the doctor is concerned about in Clara. 252 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:24.119 And we do have that lovely scene in the TARDIS where he's saying, you know, I'm worried about you because of this emotional reaction and Clara's like, I'm fine. 253 00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:28.319 And of course, it brilliantly ends with going, okay, can I can I stop doing this now then? 254 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.359 And she's like, yeah, please do. 255 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:31.500 And she's super relieved. 256 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:32.039 Yes, please. 257 00:22:32.099 --> 00:22:34.619 But it is incredibly sweet. 258 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:37.140 And it is an overarching theme here. 259 00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:43.920 And O'Donnell faces the same thing here and you'll discuss that more in the next episode, I'm sure. 260 00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:57.839 I want to know, is this a Moffat thing or is it an arc thing or something because that seems to be new? 261 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:03.960 That seems to be setting this agenda where the doctor is worried, that Clara is turning into him. 262 00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:11.819 And again, it's kind of hinted at Flatline because Clara gets to be the doctor and the doctor doesn't like it on some level. 263 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:14.039 She enjoys it about 100% too much. 264 00:23:14.099 --> 00:23:14.700 Yeah, yeah. 265 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:21.839 And then here, she's sort of super enthusiastic about being on adventures and stuff and suddenly the doctors a bit thing about that. 266 00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:25.920 And I know where we're going in this season with that. 267 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:31.740 And so that seems to be the beginning point of a trajectory that leads us to face the raven. 268 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.960 It's one of those things. 269 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:45.000 It's why Clara is not in the pantheon of greats because every season they try to do something different with her and they are trying to do something different with her rather than just letting the relationship happen. 270 00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:49.500 And so this season they've decided she's gotten past all the Danny Pink stuff. 271 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:50.819 She's going to be an adventurer. 272 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.799 She wants to be the doctor, she's embracing it too much. 273 00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:53.819 Where will that lead? 274 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:54.599 Could she die? 275 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:55.259 I don't know. 276 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:55.799 Let's see. 277 00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:58.500 But it's all a little bit forced. 278 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.339 It's all layered on top of what should be just a generic doctor companion relationship. 279 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.140 Well, you've got 3 companions basically. 280 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:05.759 She should actually just be 3 companions. 281 00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:07.079 Yes, yes. 282 00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:07.380 Yeah. 283 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:15.420 It does lead to that great little speech she has to Bennett at the end of next episode. 284 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:22.200 And that's when I started getting really concerned about the character of Clara in this series because I love this series. 285 00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:24.180 I think it has so many good episodes. 286 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.940 There's only one that I don't rate too highly. 287 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:38.460 But I also look at Clara's character trajectory and it's one of those, one of those times where you see a character you like going in a direction you don't like and you're like, no, come back. 288 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:42.059 You know, by the time of Face the Raven, it's this Thanatos. 289 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:50.400 It's this death drive, this thrill seeking death drive, and I don't, I don't like it, but it's not bad. 290 00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:51.599 It's not badly done. 291 00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:53.339 It's well acted. 292 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:54.539 It's well written. 293 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:56.220 I, I, I love it. 294 00:24:56.279 --> 00:24:56.700 I hate it. 295 00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:57.839 I want to kiss it to death. 296 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:04.200 It's kind of starting last season, isn't it? 297 00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:15.539 Where the relationship between the doctor and Clara is kind of problematized and compared to addiction and stuff like that and you only know its addiction if you, you know, try and give it up. 298 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:24.720 And now, for some reason, we have this sort of thing where we have to punish her for being like the doctor. 299 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.619 And I don't know why she deserves punishment for that. 300 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.380 Is it because she's only a young woman or something? 301 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.339 You know, like it, like, that seems to be kind of the, I don't know. 302 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:40.740 I mean, that can't be deliberately what they're saying, but I'm just trying to work out why it's a problem. 303 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:44.339 Why is it bad to enjoy Doctor Who? 304 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.559 You know, why is it so bad? 305 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.619 And O'Donnell gets killed, doesn't she? 306 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.799 And she's a massive Doctor Who fan in this story as well. 307 00:25:52.859 --> 00:26:04.019 And you said, Brendan, that some of the problems that the doctor saw in Clara are being exhibited by O'Donnell, and O'Donnell gets killed as a result, is it kind of foreshadowing? 308 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.160 Yeah. 309 00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:09.960 And something that does wind me up a bit, and I'm not on the next episode. 310 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:14.099 So I'll just mention this briefly now, until about the 5th draft, O'Donnell survived. 311 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:15.240 Right, okay. 312 00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:24.299 And it was actually a faked death that was part of the bootstrap paradox in order to make the doctor realise that Clara is next. 313 00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:25.799 Right, okay. 314 00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:29.160 But because it was part of the bootstrap paradox. 315 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:31.079 The doctor gave her a bulletproof vest. 316 00:26:31.140 --> 00:26:35.279 I can see why they cut it because it's a bit too, you know, it's a bit too. 317 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:39.180 Of course the doctor's been shot by a Dalek, but there's a regenerating box in the corner. 318 00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:46.920 And I know it winds up friend and contributor to the podcast, Kevin Bernard, the wrong way. 319 00:26:46.980 --> 00:26:51.720 Like he's spoken a lot about the treatment of O'Donnell in this two-parter. 320 00:26:51.779 --> 00:26:57.779 Yeah, she's kind of fridged, isn't she, I guess, essentially, because then it's all about Bennett's reaction and stuff. 321 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:15.480 We'll talk about that next week because, I mean, the time paradox doesn't really hit until next week, we have the doctor going back to before the flood towards the end of this episode and then we have what look like the consequences of that for the cliffhanger, which is a pretty great cliffhanger. 322 00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:16.019 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 323 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:19.019 It's a proper old style cliffhanger. 324 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:20.460 Yeah, yeah. 325 00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:21.599 It is pretty good. 326 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:26.339 And it's not like most 2 parties, it doesn't spend 10 minutes of the episode leading up to it. 327 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:27.960 Yes, exactly. yeah. 328 00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:28.559 Yes. 329 00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:29.160 Yeah, yeah. 330 00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:39.359 And Toby Withhouse freely admits that the imagery of that cliffhanger is taken from the television miniseries of pet cemetery. 331 00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:53.099 Okay. when a child appears outside the young Petrie Boy's window as sort of a flying vampire figure and he sent that clip to Daniel O'Hara and he's like, this is what I have in mind. 332 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:07.319 It's such a shame about Toby Whitehouse, because I really like a lot of his previous episodes. 333 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:08.640 Town Call Mercy is Amazing. 334 00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:10.079 God complex is really good. 335 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:12.420 School union is a script is really great. 336 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:14.940 He just doesn't land with this one. 337 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.279 I think that's a bit unfair. 338 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.660 I mean, your reaction is obviously a lot more negative than mine and mine's not, well, mine's not really a negative reaction. 339 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:23.759 But not hugely negative, I have to say. 340 00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:26.519 Like, I don't hate them, so I'm just a little bit not carried away by it. 341 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.259 I just think it could be better. 342 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:29.460 It could be better structured. 343 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:33.180 I think the fundamentals are all there, and certainly it's very, very well made. 344 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.900 It's just, there are just ways you can, I think you could improve it. 345 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:39.480 Rather than it being, rather than it being, no, chuck this away. 346 00:28:39.539 --> 00:28:40.980 We're not we're not going to make this one. 347 00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:42.000 Yeah. 348 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:48.180 I'm a bit more negative because I think you could improve it by making it be about something for a start. 349 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:57.779 You know, like episode one is about ghosts and we get the mystery of how come there are ghosts, you know, and that's, I suppose something. 350 00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:59.339 It's sort of a thing. 351 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:03.960 But we decide that the mystery is, no, they're actually ghosts or something. 352 00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:05.220 Like, what? 353 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.880 like something happens next week and I'm just not sure what's going on there. 354 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:22.740 And then the following week is the bootstrap paradox thing, which I think is done like a 1000000 times better in the Wedding of River Song without a big giant speech and without a whole lot of sort of song and dance about it. 355 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.660 It's like a throwaway line at the end of an episode. 356 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:30.960 But taking it back to the Impossible Planet, what makes Great Doctor Who is not just having a big concept. 357 00:29:31.019 --> 00:29:35.279 So, you know, okay, we're on an isolated base at the end of the universe and the devil is there. 358 00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:37.680 It's also that they then turn that into something. 359 00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:42.480 It's thematically about faith and, you know, what faith means to different people. 360 00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:48.539 Whereas I think this episode is lacking that big driving force, but also it's lacking talking about anything. 361 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:50.220 There's no theme that's derived from it. 362 00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:51.000 No. 363 00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:57.180 So the characters, like it's plot but no story. 364 00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:58.680 That's a good way of putting it, actually. 365 00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:01.559 Yeah, like lots of stuff happening. 366 00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:11.220 There's been a script meeting and they've all discussed things that should happen and how it should develop and blah, blah, blah, blah, and someone hasn't taken quite enough notes from it to then put it all together. 367 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:11.880 You're right. 368 00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:12.839 It's missing an element. 369 00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:18.359 It's missing something else to make it truly satisfying as opposed to just diverting. 370 00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:21.660 Yeah, I think it is diverting and I did enjoy it. 371 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:29.819 I've watched it 3 times, I think, over this weekend and like I wasn't bored, but but there's nothing there. 372 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:31.500 There isn't a there there. 373 00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:35.759 And I think that it does good Doctor Who things in order. 374 00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:37.319 On the surface, it looks great. 375 00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:40.440 Yeah, Capaldi's really fun in it. 376 00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:42.960 You know, like the regulars are both doing a really good job. 377 00:30:43.019 --> 00:30:54.420 I like all of the characters, which I haven't done, for instance, in the gangers 2 parter, but it doesn't have the big idea that even the gangers 2 parter has. 378 00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:56.700 And actually, that's my takeaway from the episode. 379 00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:59.039 It's Doctor Who going through the motion. to me. 380 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:10.319 I find those comments interesting because getting back to something, I think you said earlier, Simon, about the sort of thinness of the plot and the structure. what you were talking about, the structure. 381 00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:15.299 I actually really like the slow burn of this episode. 382 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:25.740 I feel like we have a feeling of dread rather than necessarily a feeling of suspense, which I can understand isn't to everyone's taste. 383 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:33.180 As for what the story is about outside of its own plot and the paradox. 384 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:35.940 I think it is pushing along. 385 00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:46.319 The idea of the magician's apprentice that Clara is getting too close to the sun, to use Icarus as an example. 386 00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:48.539 Does it advance it that much? 387 00:31:48.599 --> 00:32:02.279 Perhaps not, but we do see the other characters here reacting to it, and even more so next week when she puts Lunn in danger, and there's that brilliant bit from cast of her very aggressively signing, and Clara's saying, well, I don't need a translation for that. 388 00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:07.140 If I could talk about the sign language aspect for a moment. 389 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:17.519 Because I do have a friend who is deaf, so I have a little bit of sign, as he puts it, I have the sign level of about a 4 year old, but... 390 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:27.180 I do have a little bit of sign, and Ozlan, Australian sign language, is quite similar to British sign language, but just listening to how they did it on the set. 391 00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:32.339 So they had Sophie Stone, who outside of the show users hearing aids, but couldn't use them in the show. 392 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:37.740 They have Zaki Ismail, whose older sister is deaf. 393 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.259 So he already knew sign language. 394 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.400 This is his 1st television. 395 00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:42.299 Wow. 396 00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:46.140 And and he was hired because he knew sign language. 397 00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:54.240 And something Sophie says on the commentary is because someone in his family is deaf, he signs differently from a professional interpreter. 398 00:32:54.299 --> 00:33:05.759 And it creates, she said, you know, people who don't know sign may not know this, but it creates that feeling of intimacy between me and him because he's signing casually. 399 00:33:05.819 --> 00:33:06.900 Right, right. 400 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:11.099 But she also said, in the script, my character talks about nuclear fission. 401 00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:13.200 There is no sign for nuclear fission. 402 00:33:13.259 --> 00:33:17.400 And she's like, so you have to spell it out or use other terms, and it was taking too long. 403 00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:24.720 So that line was given to someone else because otherwise it's just people watching him moving his hands. 404 00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:28.619 And she's like, for other stuff, we made up new signs because we're 200 years in the future. 405 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.960 And sometimes we just shot over his shoulder. 406 00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:34.740 So you can't see what he's signing for the more complex things. 407 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:39.240 And she just talks about, you know, how the production really worked to adapt it. 408 00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:47.759 Capaldi was really keen to make sure that he was communicating with her as an actress and as a character to get it all right. 409 00:33:47.819 --> 00:33:49.859 And she says, funny story with Jenna. 410 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:51.420 Those scenes in the Faraday cage. 411 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:59.460 Jenna took ages to understand that in order for Sophie to understand her, she needed to see her lips. 412 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:00.539 Yeah, right. 413 00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:08.820 And she's like, but then we talked with Daniel O'Hara, the director, and we made that part of their relationship because they were antagonistic towards each other in that scene. 414 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:15.900 Um, and Toby Whithouse does say with the deafness aspect, it came from, he wanted a character who could lip read. 415 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:29.639 Well, who could lip read, naturally, a deaf person, but also he'd done sort of diversity training and kind of went, well, I don't want to make it that is her whole character, but it does mean she reacts to situations differently. 416 00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:33.659 And so I think that that way it's written really. 417 00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:37.139 It's just her character has written so well for me. 418 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.800 I really liked all of that. 419 00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:41.639 I think. 420 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.219 And that is one of the strengths of the episode. 421 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.199 And that it doesn't kind of find a space way of getting around the fact that she can't hear. 422 00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:53.159 We just have to sign and we see we see Lunn signing. 423 00:34:53.219 --> 00:35:00.059 And I love the moment where Lunn kind of is so used to just speaking forecasts that when he's asked who's in charge. 424 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:03.539 He says, I am, but he's just relaying her word. 425 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:05.039 I think that's insured. 426 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.000 As in her. 427 00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:07.260 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 428 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:18.840 And I think too, like they do make an effort this episode to foreshadow the conclusion to next week's episode where we discover everyone's in love with everyone else. 429 00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:24.780 Suddenly, it's like a Midsummer night's dream. you know 60 fathoms underwater. 430 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:46.440 Um, and they, there's that scene where where everyone escapes after locking the ghosts in the Faraday cage and Lon and Cass are kind of hugging and congratulating one another, um, Bennett and O'Donnell are as well and Clara's kind of like the 5th wheel going, you know, I'm okay too, by the way, just in case anyone cared. 431 00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:48.900 So they did make an attempt, I think, to do that. 432 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:55.559 And I do think the closeness of Cass and Lun is sold here, I think. 433 00:35:55.619 --> 00:36:00.420 And just having that information about how he signed just adds to that, I think. 434 00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:21.300 This put me in mind of Hyde, it's an episode that sets out to be something and isn't quite it at the end of the day. 435 00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:23.699 So Hyde wants to be a ghost story like this is. 436 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:29.460 And so it says, that's great. do a doctor ghost story, and that'll be really creepy, except that it's not. 437 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:31.619 It actually turns out to be quite boring, Hyde. 438 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:36.179 And I feel the same about this to a lesser degree in that I can see what it's setting out to do. 439 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.780 I just don't think that the end result really justifies setting out to do that. 440 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.119 Well, that's what you're saying is what Nathan said before. 441 00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:46.380 I think the problem with both of them is that it's missing that additional element to make it actually interesting. 442 00:36:47.400 --> 00:37:02.159 Yeah, I mean, Hyde does at least have a thematic thing where you've got the 2 leads, you know, the 2 guest stars in love with one another, but not fully aware of it, and then we get the creepy monster in love with the other creepy monster. 443 00:37:02.219 --> 00:37:03.000 Do you know what I mean? 444 00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:11.400 But I mean, that's so ludicrous and it happens so close to the end of the episode anyway, that it doesn't end up telling us anything or being interesting in any particular way. 445 00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:15.599 Here, I think ghosts and then time paradox. 446 00:37:15.659 --> 00:37:22.619 Neither of those are interesting enough ideas to hang an episode on. 447 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:24.840 And so there's fun things that happen. 448 00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:27.960 It's kind of treating it like it's a new, interesting idea. 449 00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:30.420 Like, we should be really invested in this. 450 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.739 I've seen this 100 times before. 451 00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:38.639 Picking up on what Tom said a couple of weeks ago about Dr. and the Clara in the Tartar, same old, same old. 452 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:46.800 Maybe there is an element here that, you know, Stephen Moffatt and Toby is, so Stephen Moffatt is like the time paradox guy in Doctor Who, yeah? 453 00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:49.619 And Toby Withouse creates being human. 454 00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:56.099 And the whole Faraday cage in this, by the way, was an idea for a plot in being human that didn't materialise. 455 00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:00.300 I think there is a machine in series 2 of being human that... 456 00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:04.920 Yeah, originally it was a Faraday cage and then it got changed to something else. 457 00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:12.539 So perhaps part of the problem is for Stephen Mofford and Toby Whitehouse, this is just bread and butter and normal. 458 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.679 And sometimes they forget that actually, this is a new and exciting idea. 459 00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:22.860 And I think the opening monologue next week tries to do that, and Toby Withouse was very surprised he got it passed. 460 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:26.219 Got it past the draft stage. 461 00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:30.119 Yeah, maybe that is what, where things fall a bit flat. 462 00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:37.019 As you say, Peter, that we're just treating this like business as usual when it's like this should be exciting. 463 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:51.300 And if we look back to like Day of the Daleks, the doctor is quite blasé about the idea of goes from the future, but the reason we think it's exciting is because Joe is freaked out by being in a haunted house and constantly questions who could these people possibly be? 464 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.679 We do try and sell the ghosts as a big deal though, don't we? 465 00:38:55.739 --> 00:39:02.460 Because the doctor, there's that fantastic moment where the doctor kind of goes, you know, they only come out at night. 466 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:06.900 They kind of see through, 0 my god, they're really ghosts and he's super excited. 467 00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:10.199 The TARDIS doesn't like the ghosts and doesn't want to be near them. 468 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:19.260 You know, there's something about breaking that fundamental rule of the universe, that everyone dies and then they're dead. 469 00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:25.079 Like there's a lot of talk to try and make ghosts a big deal. 470 00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:28.139 But the trouble is that they're not really a big deal. 471 00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:39.239 And even in the Doctor Who context, there have been so many aliens that are ghosts, you know, the Vardens, the Gelf, you know, like all of this sort of thing, we've had this over and over again over the years. 472 00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:47.159 And so it's not as interesting as I think it wants to be or not as not as big a deal as the script seems to make of it, I think. 473 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:53.699 And even going back to something like Day of the Daleks, there's always rational explanations for what ghosts are. 474 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:54.780 And so we're just waiting for that. 475 00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:56.280 It's going to happen at some point. 476 00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:57.059 And it never does. 477 00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:58.500 Spoilers for next week. 478 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:04.079 It turns out there really goes, you know, like it's sort of. something. 479 00:40:04.139 --> 00:40:05.219 I don't even know what it is. 480 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.519 Our explanation includes the word souls. 481 00:40:08.579 --> 00:40:11.579 So I don't think it can be said to be an explanation. 482 00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:12.539 Do you know what I mean? 483 00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:15.659 It's just like more words describing the thing. 484 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:20.699 Well, that was the responsibility of thumb script exec Lindsay Alford. 485 00:40:20.699 --> 00:40:21.179 Okay. 486 00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:26.940 Because basically Toby Woodhouse is like, I want to use ghosts, but we need to come up with a scientific explanation. 487 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.340 And Moffat said, well, that's Lindsay Alford's job. 488 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:37.079 And so she researched and there are theories that spectral happenings are a result of electromagnetism. 489 00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:40.860 And that's where the Faraday cage cuts in. the car before the horse. 490 00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:42.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 491 00:40:43.019 --> 00:40:45.000 It's very much, we want a story with ghosts. 492 00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:46.619 How can we scientifically make this work? 493 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:48.239 I think we had a discussion. 494 00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:59.039 Oh, I can't remember where in maximum power series C, but we were talking about how they come up with some ridiculous science to justify a world. what episode it was now. 495 00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:00.960 I mean, it was kind of like. 496 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:16.440 Well, I mean, the fact that they land on electromagnetism and that they give them the ability and there's that great moment where the doctor says, oh, and 0 my God, I only just realised that I noticed that, you know, that they can only touch and manipulate metal objects. 497 00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:24.000 And I think there's 2 really terrific seeds, which is one where Moran's ghost is dragging the axe along the floor. 498 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:41.219 And then that other superb scene where Lan is menaced by a ghost and we recreate the, you know, alien 3 moment with Sigourney Weaver. and then the ghost goes and picks up like the world's biggest spanner. 499 00:41:41.219 --> 00:41:43.980 I was about to brain him with it. 500 00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:45.300 Yeah. 501 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:47.280 And like all of that works quite well. 502 00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:50.519 I think the mystery, you know, like why does he not get attacked? 503 00:41:50.579 --> 00:41:59.099 Like, I think that mystery is solved in a good way, you know, the way that they noticed that the ghosts want to show them the inside of the spaceship. 504 00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:03.300 All of that sort of stuff is really good, like the deductions and stuff. 505 00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:04.440 I don't know. 506 00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:05.219 I don't know. 507 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.739 So I think there's some good visuals and good bones, you know. 508 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:09.300 Oh, there's definitely good visual. 509 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.039 And then living quarters are good bones, apparently. 510 00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:36.599 I've remembered which podcast it was where we discussed how terrible science can ruin something for you and um, and it's, you know, it's a responsibility. 511 00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:42.059 Yeah, at the risk of reopening old wounds and making daddy and daddy fight again, it was killer mood. 512 00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:47.940 Well, speaking of that, what about Orion's belt? 513 00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:03.719 Simon, I was expecting you to be able to tell us that just because the sort of Orion appears like 3 stars in a line in the sky, they're not going to be 3 lines in three-dimensional space that eventually points out. 514 00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:04.860 I haven't actually checked that. 515 00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:06.059 Well, it's certainly not the point. 516 00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:10.739 They're certainly not going to point to earth because when we're looking at them, they're pointing in different directions. 517 00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:13.139 Over somewhere else. 518 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:20.219 It's just, but also, I just found that a bit kind of, it was just a very long bow, that was a thing. 519 00:43:20.219 --> 00:43:27.420 And, okay, they decided they wanted to put in the script to some reference to an actual constellation, a real constellation out there that you can see. 520 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:31.739 But I just worry that in the modern era, people just don't know that sort of stuff. 521 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:33.840 They wouldn't even know what the sort of variety is. 522 00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:34.980 They would barely know. 523 00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:37.800 I mean, with light pollution in cities, you can barely see it anyway. 524 00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:41.519 Yeah, and the whole three-dimensions thing pointing is just wrong. 525 00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:45.059 It's kind of like, we have to have the ghosts chanting this stuff. 526 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:46.800 So what are they going to chant? 527 00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:51.239 they're going to chant like a coordinate so that each thing has to be some kind of, you know, poetic reference. 528 00:43:51.300 --> 00:43:59.460 It can't just be, it can't just be soul 3 or something, you know, it has to be a, something in detail and, uh, some, something come always, it's just terrible. 529 00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:02.760 And Nathan, you do a podcast on 90s Star Trek. 530 00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:05.760 You know that space is 2D and not 3D. Yes, exactly, right? 531 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:25.320 So there is this weird system, and I can't remember what it's called, and I will undoubtedly research it and put it in the show notes now that I'm saying this. where every spot on earth, and I think it's like 2 by 2 metre squares or something, is specified by 3 dictionary words. 532 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:37.860 And because, yeah, there's enough words in the world that you can divide up the earth's surface and specify a very, very specific place with 3 words. 533 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:42.059 Now, here it's just not going to work in any way at all. 534 00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:44.519 I do like the words that are chosen. 535 00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:48.599 Like it's the dark, the sword, the forsaken, the temple. 536 00:44:48.659 --> 00:44:51.300 There's something mythic about it and that works really. 537 00:44:51.360 --> 00:45:01.619 Well, it works well with the revelation that the monster is the fisher king, although that just appears to be a name, uh, and nothing sort of particularly to do with our theory and legend or anything. 538 00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:14.159 But I think that sounds wonderful, but not for a 2nd does it convinces a potential coordinate that specifies a particular building anywhere in the use. 539 00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:14.460 Exactly. 540 00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:15.719 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 541 00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:21.179 Like, if it was 2 stars forming the sort of Orion, obviously there would be a line that went through all of them. 542 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:26.340 But if there's three, then there's literally no chance that there's a straight line that goes through all three. 543 00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.380 No, no, no, no, there's always... 544 00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:30.659 It's infinitesimal chance. 545 00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:34.139 And they do get the detail right that one's a nebula, which is good. 546 00:45:34.139 --> 00:45:37.980 That was good, but that's so, so brief that it's like, well, who's going to remember? 547 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:40.800 It's just, I think if you're going to do the sign. 548 00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:46.019 I mean I know we don't want to do the science lesson, but I just I just think that it's it could have been done a bit more interestingly. 549 00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:54.239 Well, it just comes from the Terry Nation school of not knowing what a constellation, a universe or a galaxy are. or a solar system. 550 00:45:54.420 --> 00:45:56.940 Or famously a quadrant. 551 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:04.860 Actually, to be fair, to be fair, those 3 bodies, one of which is a nebula, are actually only 600, are within 600 light years of each other. 552 00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:06.960 And they're about to occur light years away from us. 553 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.079 But they're certainly not pointing towards us. 554 00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:11.159 No. 555 00:46:11.219 --> 00:46:12.719 That is a great visual, though. 556 00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:15.960 I do think that that is good visual kind of storytelling. 557 00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:18.599 We talked about character consistency before. 558 00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:24.059 Don't you love the fact that the doctor has now done a complete 180 around his attitude to the military once again? 559 00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:29.280 So, you know, he's all, you know, he's all trying to inspire them with their vows about protecting and serving and so on. 560 00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:47.099 Do you know, I actually really like that scene as well, and I think Murray does a great job by putting a version of the doctor's theme in there, and where even Bennett, who has one characteristic, which is that he's kind of scared of everything. 561 00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:54.059 Even he agrees that staying behind is the right thing to do. because he, like the doctor is intrigued by the ghosts. 562 00:46:54.179 --> 00:46:56.519 And I think that's a good doctorary moment. 563 00:46:56.579 --> 00:46:57.719 That's what the doctor does. 564 00:46:57.780 --> 00:46:58.860 He makes people better. 565 00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:03.420 And so I really thought that scene landed really quite well. 566 00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:07.380 But yes, like that military thing. 567 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:09.480 We're just going to now completely... 568 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:10.920 And the doctor's famous. 569 00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:14.460 Like everyone knows who the doctor is now. tedious. 570 00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:14.880 No. 571 00:47:14.940 --> 00:47:20.519 Haven't they made like 3 different stabs at removing him from the history of the universe? 572 00:47:20.579 --> 00:47:24.599 and And then in the next episode, they've decided that he's famous again. 573 00:47:24.659 --> 00:47:26.039 It's just, you know. 574 00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:30.539 And it's both Russell and Moffatt do it too. 575 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:35.579 If they don't want him to be continuously famous, he should stop saving the universe. 576 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:41.820 No, he should keep telling everyone not to tell anyone like Pete does in Frontios. 577 00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:43.139 That's kind of amazing. 578 00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:48.179 Next week, of course, I'm not going to be here. 579 00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:56.880 So I just need to mention that the village that we visit next week is around the year 1980, which means it's after... 580 00:47:57.719 --> 00:47:59.099 You're not. 581 00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:08.460 Now that means in terms of Doctor Who production, it's after Daryl Blake, but before Gerald Flood. 582 00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:11.880 Brilliant. 583 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:14.519 That is really funny. 584 00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:15.840 That is really great. 585 00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:17.760 That is pretty brave. 586 00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:53.639 Well, Alyssa, it looks like the doctor's definitely dead this time, so we'll see you next week for what might turn out to be a very short episode, indeed, in before the flood. 587 00:48:53.880 --> 00:49:10.380 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. 588 00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:19.500 Until next time, remember that when furnishing an underwater base, it's important to only buy lights that make loud banging noises when you turn them on and off. 589 00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:21.960 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 590 00:49:22.019 --> 00:49:23.099 Bang. 591 00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:23.639 Good night. 592 00:49:23.699 --> 00:49:24.780 Good night. 593 00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:25.739 Bye finesse. 594 00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:34.320 That was Flight Through Entirety. 595 00:49:34.380 --> 00:49:37.139 Sorry, Nathan Modernly, Peter Griffith, Sprinda, Jones, and Simon Moore. 596 00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.239 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 597 00:49:39.300 --> 00:49:45.000 This episode, baseless criticism, was recorded on the 13th of August 2023, and released on the 1st of October. 598 00:49:45.659 --> 00:49:55.800 A whole new era of Doctor Who starts next month, and the FDE podcasting universe will be there to cover it with a flash cast released a day or 2 after each new episode. 599 00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:58.019 Watch this space for detail. 600 00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:11.820 There's altogether too much heterosexuality going on in the space, though, I have to say. 601 00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:14.159 Maybe I should save that for next week. 602 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:18.480 If there was a law, it would be against it. 603 00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:22.380 The Fisher King's bisexual. 604 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:26.039 It's in a comic somewhere. 605 00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:26.940 So it counts. 606 00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:28.079 That's right. 607 00:50:28.139 --> 00:50:29.280 He's the fishwife to his friends. 608 00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:32.519 On Saturdays. 609 00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:36.780 This put me in mind of Hyde.