WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:47:02

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Hello, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who's actually asking you to poke us with a Stick and Make us Jump.

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Please.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm back wearing my specially constructed podcast mask, which protects my head from the slightly corrosive effects of doing these recordings.

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Or at least I hope it does.

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I thought you were looking a bit pale toddle.

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Well, that means that can mean only one thing.

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It's time to disappear down a black hole into a universe of antimatter.

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No, we're not heading to Parliament House.

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It's the 3 doctors.

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Now, um, this one was assigned to me, and, God, it's a cracker, you know, 10 years on television.

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There were very few British programs who could make a similar claim and no science fiction programs.

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You know, British science fiction programs at this stage would run for two, maybe 3 series.

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You had Quator Mass. you'd had out of the unknown, the anthology series.

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You had the Pathfinders series and Target Lunar, its predecessor.

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So it was really a huge celebration that this was happening.

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Can I spoil our fun for a second?

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Yes.

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Nine years and 2 months.

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The story aired until the 10th year.

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Well, that's the thing.

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Everyone sort of says 3 doctors is for 10th anniversary special, but for the production team, the whole year was the anniversary year.

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It wasn't just one story.

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They considered the whole year to be a celebration of the last 10 years of Doctor, and we'll look at that as we go through, as we go through the stories.

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It's also the 1st time, possibly that the idea for a story, the central concept has come from fan feedback.

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Really?

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Well, people said they wanted to see Pat and Billy again.

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Exactly, yeah.

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Barry Letts, who, sadly, is no longer with us. said in many interviews that fans would ask and other people at the BBC would ask, why don't you do a story with all 3 doctors?

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And initially he and Terence said, oh, no, you know, we want to, we want to go forward and we want to tell our own stories.

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And when they were planning the 10th season, they said, well, if we're not going to do it now, when are we going to do it?

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And that's what started the whole ball rolling.

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And as a story, it works surprisingly well, especially when you consider that the planning stages were just a mess.

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Is this because of Billy's health or what?

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It's partially because of that.

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It's also because Blessed.

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It's written by the Bristol boys.

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It actually seems like an incredibly bad choice, doesn't it?

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Like, why don't you give this to Bob Holmes?

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Because Baker and Martin have done such a kind of slipshod job of their previous couple of stories.

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But I actually found, as I watched it, that I appreciated that they were the ones who'd been given it because they're the kind of high concept writers.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And their initial pitch was even a greater hike concept.

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You know, the domain of OM, as the villain originally was, which is who, upside down and backwards.

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Did you know that?

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Well, I do now.

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They vetoed it.

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I think very little. said no, that's too knowing.

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Oh, goodness.

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But the domain of Om was essentially hell.

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It wasn't an antimatic universe with any kind of scientific basis.

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And the doctor, and the 2nd doctor, and the 1st doctor would go into Om's domain owns underworld to face him in a series of games and trials.

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Pretty much there.

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But 10 years later, who would come to write that in a Doctor Who story, but they're script editor Terrence Sticks in the 5 doctors.

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He vetoed their original idea and then nicked it 10 years later.

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So you think he said I'm going to be around for 1983 and I want that one for them.

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More than 10 years later he went, oh, what a brilliant idea.

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Why has nobody thought of this before?

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Because as Terence has often said itself, all you need is a good idea.

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It doesn't have to be yours.

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But instead, we actually get a much better story and this feels like the 1st time that Barry and Terrence has sat down with the Bristol boys and said, no, really, you need to focus on this because this is certainly their most focussed story so far.

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Yeah, it is most disciplined.

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And because it has a fairly small number of guest characters.

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It doesn't suffer from the blinds of the other stories, which is these sort of loud, bombastic, overdrawn kind of stupid characters.

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Like, Omega needs to be big and he needs to be kind of a giant menace.

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And, you know, Tyler and Hollis and the time lords and things.

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They're the only other characters and they're fairly sort of low key, aren't they?

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They not.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it's it's another example of the musing stock characters like we discussed with the mutants last month.

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But in this case, that's a good thing because you've already got so many ideas in this story, you've got an ancient time lord who gave them the power of time travel.

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You've got the 3 doctors.

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So, for your supporting characters.

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You need to be able to understand who they are very quickly.

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So, you know, Tyler is a scientist, therefore, he wears brainy specs and tweed.

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Hollis runs bird sanctuary.

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He a man of the land, therefore, he's been an anorak with a shotgun.

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Do you think his name's John Hollis?

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And the reason that they give him such a giant hair is making fun of John Hollis from the Mutants last year.

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That is...

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That is...

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That's, that's a, that, that, that's an, that's an idea.

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That's the best fan theory I've ever heard.

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That beat season 6B, I think, hands down.

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Um, Yeah.

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Okay.

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So, Brendan, as part of the planning of this, was it always going to be designed to, as part of their grand plan to get the doctor finally to give him back his time travel and all that sort of thing?

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That was actually part of Barry Lett's stipulation because Barry always planned to get the doctor back into space and getting forgiven, but he didn't want to throw away the unit thing straight away.

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So that's why in season 8 we get one story off of in season nine, we get 2 stories off Earth and a bit of travel in the Time Monster as well.

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And a unit free story on Earth in the middle.

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And a unit free story on Earth in the Middle.

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Yeah.

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Pretty much Barrylitz has been very clever here because he's weaning the audience off what they have become used to to get the show back to what it was in the 60s.

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Which it's very strange, but it's very well done.

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And Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

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I think sort of they really earn their keep with this story.

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Look, I mean, they'll go back to doing crappy stories in future.

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This isn't a giant, you know, character development for them, really.

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I have to disagree because I feel their stories from here on in. do have a lot more narrative focus on a central idea.

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There are other ideas leading off from it.

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But this is where they kind of learn to write a proper Doctor Who story.

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And I really have a great deal of respect for them for the other issue, which Todd you alluded to earlier, which was, of course, William Hartle's involvement.

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There are 2 conflicting stories as to how William Hartnell came to be involved.

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Barry Lett says he phoned Hartnell. and said, look, 10th anniversary is coming up.

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Do you want to be a part of it?

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And William said, wow, it's still running.

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Yeah, he wasn't aware it was still running. apparently.

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But he said, oh, that's wonderful.

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I didn't know.

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And the other version of the story is that Hartnell was in at the BBC looking for work, saw the Doctor Who production office and popped his head, popped his head round Terence Dix's door and said, I didn't know this was still running.

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And Terence said, well, funny you should say that.

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We've been considering getting you back.

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I think the 1st story is more likely seeing as he was essentially housebound.

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Yes, I think so.

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And is the, do we still believe the story where Heather Hartner rings up and says, no, he's too sick.

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He can't really do it.

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Both Barry and Terence have said that.

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So I think I think that's I think that's a very strong possibility.

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Plus, as we saw from an adventure in space and time.

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Or adventure in space and time, time and space.

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Time and space time. of those.

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Time in Spain.

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We've done that joke.

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Over and over again.

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Over and over again.

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Anyway, as we saw in that docudrama, when Bill was having a problem with the show, it was actually Heather who went in to see Verity.

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Oh, okay, I'd forgotten that, actually.

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And that's when Verity says, well, actually, I'm leaving.

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Right, right.

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And um, yeah, so it, you know, it doesn't surprise me at all that his wife, as much as she knew he loved the show, would have been considering his best interests, even if he was incapable of considering them himself, because of course he had very severe arteriosclerosis affecting the memory and affecting the reasoning.

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It is, I mean, I don't want to sort of leap ahead too much, but watching him is not that fun an experience, I have to say.

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Like, I love Billy.

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Of course, I love Billy.

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I think he's spectacular and watching him all the way through for the podcast has given me just an absolute sort of newfound appreciation for him.

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And he is, it's a bit sad, isn't it?

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Like he's reading off the auto cue.

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There are little moments.

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There are little moments where he gets it back.

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You know, little moments where it seems like he's the doctor again.

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But he is visibly sick, isn't he?

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Yeah, I mean, there are glimpses of that magic and you can just see that twinkle in his eye and, you know, they've really made a really good effort to integrate him into the footage.

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I was really quite surprised at how much he has to do in the 4th episode, you know, and all the way through considering how hilly he is.

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And I actually sat there going, oh, couldn't they have put him into a car dressed him up in the doctor's costume and got him onto set, you know, just for 5 minutes so that right at the end when he says goodbye, he'd pop into reality with Pat there, you know, this is the last time that the 3 of them, like it's a moment.

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And it makes you realise perhaps how incredibly ill he actually was.

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But at the same time, just having the 3 of them in that story and interacting together, I just found was magic.

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I was so happy when Pat was back.

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It's like, 0 my god, it's the doctor.

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The doctor's back in the show.

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I can't believe it.

151
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And I've had this growing appreciation of perts we over the past few episodes, but Pat is so different, isn't he?

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He's so lively and active.

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You know, he's funny.

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He's a little bit panicked at times, you know, all of those sorts of things.

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Whereas as Pertry is so his contained, you know, and very low key and all of that sort of thing and not sort of openly sort of funny or anything and a bit a bit more pompous.

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And so it's so nice seeing Pat sort of run around the set and pairing him with Benton is a great idea.

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Yeah, I mean, what is so amazing about Pat.

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And it just very deliberately draws a contrast between the 2 doctors, is that Joe and Benjamin, they're our audience identification characters, they're your big brother and your big sister.

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And straight away, they actually have an easier, more fun chemistry with Pat than with John.

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Yeah.

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Pat sort of arriving and taking Joe under his arm and trying to explain to her what's going on and he's just so utterly charming.

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It's just yeah, it's amazing to see him back.

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There's a different energy about it, and there's a different energy about him.

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I actually, I didn't think it was quite, he was quite nailing the characterisation, and maybe that's because he's not paired with Jamie, who I'm so used to.

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And I just, and it took me a while to sort of adjust.

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And by episodes 3 and four, he's just so him. you know, and so I kind of, I was thinking, yeah, he's not quite there.

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William's not quite there and John's very different.

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You know, this is the 3rd story that's been recorded for this season and he's, I think it's a more relaxed performance.

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You know, the character and the actor emerging together much more.

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And so there's quite a bit of a link between the time monster and this.

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And so as I was watching it and enjoying it.

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In those early parts of it, I'm thinking, well, they're all there, but the characters are all just slightly not quite what I was thinking that they should be.

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I think you're right with Pat.

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Lots of people say that Pat comes back and plays a sort of parody of the 2nd doctor.

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But I actually think you nail it, Todd, when you say that it's the absence of Jamie.

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You know, that it's Pat with his companions.

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Do you know what I mean?

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There's so much sort of part of performance.

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And there had been a plan to get Jamie and Zoe back.

180
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Yeah, yeah.

181
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Fraser couldn't come back because he was doing Emmerdale and Pertuy vetoed it anyway because...

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Well, apparently.

183
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Why do I know?

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But he was on, he thought there were too many characters, but I suspect he just thought it would be less about him if other people were in it.

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See, there were so many versions of the script.

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There was the version of the plot line with Om in the underworld.

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And then there was a version of the script with Billy fully involved and Pat there with Jamie.

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I don't think they had intended to bring back any of Billy's companions, though.

189
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And then they found out...

190
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Could have brought back Dodo.

191
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Oh, yeah.

192
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We found out what happened to do.

193
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We found out what happened.

194
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Dodo could have been married too, Mr. Olis.

195
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Perfect.

196
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Living in a bird sanctuary.

197
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Oh, gee, you're elevating this story to high up.

198
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We never find out his wife's 1st name.

199
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There's nothing to say she isn't Dorothea.

200
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And just because the accent's different.

201
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Well, it's bloody dodo.

202
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

203
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She changed accents once a week.

204
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And then there was the version of the script where they found out that Billy couldn't do as much action.

205
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So he was going to be on a screen for the 1st 3 episodes and then he was going to be physically there in the 4th episode and then they found out he couldn't be physically there in the 4th episode.

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So there's a 3rd version of the script.

207
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And then finally, Fraser drops out because Fraser had agreed in principle, but as you say, couldn't get out of doing Emmerdale.

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They wouldn't release him.

209
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And so we get Benton in Fraser's role and the corporal who sees unit HQ disappear was originally meant to be Benton.

210
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So Benton was going to disappear halfway through the story.

211
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Well, I'm really glad that in a way that happened because it's absolutely fantastic to see the Benton character expanded.

212
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I remember watching it as a kid going, I didn't realise that he knew the 2nd doctor.

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00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:15.480
Like, it's one of those moments, you know?

214
00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:18.240
And then to be inside the Tartars, finally.

215
00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:28.259
And he's so accepting of it, like, you know, and this is not the 1st time that Benton has demonstrated an openness to the ideas of time travel and everything like that.

216
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.240
We've said it in the time monster and the demons.

217
00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:37.980
And unfortunately, it does go to show up, I think, one of the flaws of the story, and that is the characterisation of the brigadier in the middle episode.

218
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:40.799
It was the worst thing ever.

219
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:42.779
And it's not going to last. you know what I mean?

220
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:44.759
And there was a bit of it in the time monster.

221
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:49.080
He was a bit of an idiot in the time monster, but he's just a massive idiot here.

222
00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:53.820
And I think it is Bob Baker and Dave Martin doing their sort of stock characters thing.

223
00:15:53.879 --> 00:16:06.419
And so the brigadier gets to be a big buffoon and he doesn't believe the 2nd doctor about what's happened to Joe and the 3rd doctor and he believes we're in Cromer, you know, and he sort of stomps around just being a giant idiot.

224
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:07.860
He's really terrible.

225
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.620
It is it's the nadir of his character, I think.

226
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:11.399
Yeah, yeah.

227
00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:21.539
It's so bizarre that with all the things he's seen, he can't accept the idea of the doctor being in 2 places at once, essentially, because that's what's happening.

228
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.340
Or rather, there are 2 doctors in the one place.

229
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:28.919
You know, as a child, you watch that and you laugh along with the brigadier.

230
00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:35.580
But as an adult, you kind of look at it and go, wow, you know, they're really giving Nick some shoddy material here.

231
00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:44.940
The last time I watched this, which was completely out of sequence, I really just disliked this story so intensely because of that fact.

232
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.340
The brigadier, I thought was so poorly served.

233
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:53.159
So when I went in to watch it this time, I was really hoping that I would find some positives within the story.

234
00:16:53.220 --> 00:17:02.100
I think it's nice that in the 1st episode he actually is quite involved, not having Yates there, I think, gives him a bit of a chance to sort of breathe.

235
00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:03.360
Where is Yates?

236
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.400
He's off directing a play, I believe.

237
00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:06.059
Really?

238
00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.039
He's telling other actors how to act.

239
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:08.460
Yes.

240
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:10.200
Great. grief.

241
00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:11.220
Oh sorry.

242
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:15.119
Well, yeah, okay.

243
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:17.880
He's only in he's only in 3 episodes this season.

244
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:18.900
Thank, though.

245
00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.859
He does some hilarious falling over in those episodes too.

246
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:23.579
We'll get to that.

247
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.720
We'll get to that, all right.

248
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:27.960
Richard Franklin, if you're listening, just be aware we're not all against you.

249
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:29.880
Oh, I really like you, Richard.

250
00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:33.059
What more can I say?

251
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:44.940
But in episode one, you know, the brigadier's t-sharing on the brink of this horrible foolishness, then, of course, in episodes 2 and 3, it's just galling.

252
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.000
It's his 1st trip off Earth and he just can't handle it.

253
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:51.480
Oh, when he sees the 3rd doctor again in episode four.

254
00:17:51.539 --> 00:17:53.519
He begins to fall back into place.

255
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:57.119
It suddenly does improve because he's got something concrete in front of him.

256
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:00.059
It's really nice then at the end of the story.

257
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:01.799
There's a couple of moments that I really like.

258
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:05.759
I love the fact that Nick's and the TARDIS and Billy's on the screen and it's sort of like.

259
00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:07.140
So everyone's in it.

260
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:07.920
Brent Vyon.

261
00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:08.880
Yeah, Brett Vine.

262
00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:10.920
It's harking back to that sort of game.

263
00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:18.660
And then there's that nice moment where they're having to go back through this singularity and Joe doesn't want to go and he says, come along, Miss Grant.

264
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.220
And then he says, Joe. And I just love that moment.

265
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:32.759
And it echos the previous story where Yates is under attack from the bombs and he's going, Yates, Yates, get out of the man, and then he says, mine.

266
00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:36.240
And they change, they just change the 1st name.

267
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:37.680
It just humanises him.

268
00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:41.759
I got absolute goosebumps when the time wants to win, he does that with mine.

269
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:42.720
That's nice, isn't it?

270
00:18:42.779 --> 00:18:44.220
And there's those nice little moments.

271
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:49.740
It doesn't redeem the rest of it, but, you know, Nick gives his all and does such a, you know, wonderful job.

272
00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:54.539
And even when he does that double take looking out the unit door at the CSA sand.

273
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:58.200
She does it really well, but you know, it's like...

274
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.119
I'm fairly sure that's chroma key.

275
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.779
Oh boy.

276
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:05.099
It's the...

277
00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:09.420
Todd, Todd, Todd, just...

278
00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:17.940
I think it's the opposite of what makes the brigadier work as a character because what makes him work as a character is that he has this sort of wry amusement to the doctor.

279
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:18.779
Do you know what I mean?

280
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:20.940
Yeah, he's not meant to be phased by him.

281
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.940
No, he's not inferior to the doctor or stupider than the doctor.

282
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.680
In fact, he's able to be a little bit sort of Ryan condescending with him.

283
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:39.660
And the same with Liz, you know, and like he's a bit warmer towards Joe. But he's not flawed by the fact that things are ridiculous around him and that's really fun.

284
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.319
And so to have him be such a massive idiot here is a giant shame.

285
00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:47.279
And he will be back on form at the end of the season. very much back on form.

286
00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:50.819
Yeah, this is the last time we see him until the end of the season.

287
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.799
Like, he's got a massive gap.

288
00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:59.339
I suppose it's the same as last season, though, because we had Day of the Daleks followed by the Time Monster.

289
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:00.000
He does have a lot.

290
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:09.180
Well, obviously at this point in time, you know, the production crew 4 years in, and they're following their same formula, you know, unit's going to be in the 1st and last stories book ending the season.

291
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.099
We've got the master in the middle.

292
00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:12.900
The Daleks are thrown into the mix as well.

293
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.279
Can we talk about the timelines?

294
00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:14.940
Yes.

295
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:22.920
We have Clyde Pollock back, who was actually one of the people who tried Troughton and sentenced him to regenerate.

296
00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:29.700
And he was the nice time lord who let Jamie and Zoe see the doctor for one last time.

297
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.380
So he's sort of terribly sweet.

298
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.299
That's a nice bit of continuity.

299
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:34.200
Yeah, yeah.

300
00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:39.599
And he's the he's the chancellor, so he's the one who opposes the giant haired president's plan.

301
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:43.980
Oh, can I just say I don't like the president is pretty crap as an actor?

302
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.440
He's got huge hair, massive hair.

303
00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:48.480
He makes Pertuey look like John Hollis.

304
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:59.220
The weird thing is, and I always felt this as a child, and I'm not convinced I'm wrong, is that it seems like the chancellor is actually superior in rank to the president.

305
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:00.359
Yeah, that is weird.

306
00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:01.140
I thought that too.

307
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:01.920
He is great.

308
00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:09.420
But, you know, maybe that's an attempt to say even though they have our words, human words for their officers, they might be slightly different.

309
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:10.680
Yeah.

310
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:11.160
Yeah.

311
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:13.319
Well, it's just a strange way of playing it, maybe.

312
00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:19.380
I mean, later on when we see the chancellor and the lord president in future time world stories, it's the other way around as we might expect.

313
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:20.460
Yeah, yeah.

314
00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:23.160
In our own republics and what have you.

315
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:29.339
But I suppose on the other hand, in some republics, you've got a prime minister and a president.

316
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.299
The president is largely ceremonial with the prime minister making actual decisions.

317
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:34.740
So maybe that was the thinking.

318
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:39.900
That's why the chancellor is so brought out because usually the chancellor makes the decisions.

319
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.119
The president has the power to, but doesn't.

320
00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:44.759
But on this occasion the president's saying, no, we're doing this thing.

321
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:51.119
We are breaking all of our laws and draining all of our energy to try and save ourselves.

322
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.160
Could be a thing.

323
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:53.940
Could be a thing.

324
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.019
Could be a thing.

325
00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:56.460
Respect the thing.

326
00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:58.920
We haven't actually talked much about the plot.

327
00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:00.240
The story itself.

328
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:03.720
That's not very interesting though, is it?

329
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:04.980
I mean, that's the thing.

330
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:18.720
It's pretty lightweight, which I think is another clever decision because when you have so many other elements, and especially when you have John Pertley and Patrick Troughton fighting for screen time, and notice I didn't say the 2nd and 3rd doctor because it's not them fighting for screen time.

331
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:20.819
It's the actors fighting the screen time.

332
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.920
You don't want to have a complex plot.

333
00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:26.819
It's a very simple good versus evil, but with a slightly complex villain.

334
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.140
Oh my god.

335
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:30.000
Stephen Thorn is really good.

336
00:22:30.059 --> 00:22:32.160
He's much better here than he was as a zaal.

337
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:32.819
Yes, yeah.

338
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:46.140
Like Azar was sort of growly, growly voice, you know, absurd tights, you know, and serious manscaping issues, whereas this is a little bit more sort of subtle and nuanced.

339
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:52.079
And he does get one spectacular moment and there's this almost sort of fairy tale moment.

340
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:55.799
It's being reenacted here by the omega figure in front of me.

341
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:02.339
The 2 doctors take his mask off and discover that he no longer exist.

342
00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:04.140
And Tom?

343
00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:06.900
No, no, continue, please.

344
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:12.900
I just think there's something weirdly fairy tale about it and it works because we're in this sort of magical realm sort of thing.

345
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:19.319
And it does make him a sort of tragic figure, you know, that in fact, his escape is impossible.

346
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:28.259
His revenge can't mean anything because he's just a force of pure will and he's physically completely non-existent.

347
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:37.200
Look, I don't disagree with you on this, you know, I can see the comic book style there, you know, on one page, it's like Omega says, help me take my mask off.

348
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:40.380
The doctors move in and then you turn the page and gasp.

349
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:41.160
There's nothing there.

350
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:42.960
And as a kid, that was just incredible.

351
00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:43.859
Yeah, yeah.

352
00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:54.839
When I, of course, sit down as indult and I think about this, I kind of go, okay, so by my force of will, I have to create my whole universe and therefore I can get no sleep.

353
00:23:54.900 --> 00:24:01.319
Thus, I know what it's like for me after 24 hours and no sleep, I'm going crazy, therefore I'm utterly insane.

354
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:04.559
You're ranty and wanting to destroy the universe after.

355
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.279
Correct.

356
00:24:05.339 --> 00:24:09.779
And then I sort of notice after some time that my head's slightly corroding.

357
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:16.200
Thus I've got to go and I'm going to construct rather than going to get, you know, like a facial with a face mask.

358
00:24:16.259 --> 00:24:23.099
I'm actually going to get a literal face mask, put it over my head, and not look at it ever to see what's going on underneath.

359
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:29.519
Just so, at that particular moment in time, we can then flip it up and I've completely corroded away.

360
00:24:29.579 --> 00:24:31.680
Now, I'm overanalysing it.

361
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:34.500
He's like the Time Lord version of Guy Crayford.

362
00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:35.519
Yes, yes, yes.

363
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:37.740
Now, the, I mean, the only thing is...

364
00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:41.579
Omega has no one to talk to.

365
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.099
So, yeah, it's perhaps unsurprising he hasn't like looked in a mirror or tried to brush his teeth.

366
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.720
Yeah, like if you'd had a date, you know. last few years, maybe you would have noticed.

367
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.680
Nothing but gel guards for company on those long, lonely nights.

368
00:24:55.740 --> 00:24:57.480
Can we talk about the universe?

369
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.099
creates for a second.

370
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:02.039
So in the novelisation, which I think is really pretty good.

371
00:25:02.099 --> 00:25:12.599
It's explained that initially he created like a really fun, interesting, fabulous world, but then he kind of just got sick of that and let it all sort of degenerate.

372
00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:28.380
But even in the novelisation, like he's got this big brass, like bronze castle thing and they go in and it's this massive space and he's on a sort of spotlit dais, you know, and that's where he's revealed.

373
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:30.299
Again, it needs to be fairy tale.

374
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.900
It needs to be this sort of strange castle and it's got minarets and stuff.

375
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.359
It's really well described by Terence.

376
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:40.140
But what we get is really the cheapest possible set.

377
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.460
The money's run out.

378
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.460
It's Aladdin's cave, but it's Panto Aladdin's cave.

379
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:45.420
It's really poor.

380
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:52.500
I'd be I would be disappointed if I went to a panto and that's what the set looked like.

381
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.019
Apparently the sets were delivered unfinished.

382
00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:57.240
The paint job wasn't done on them.

383
00:25:57.299 --> 00:26:00.000
They weren't actually tall enough as specified.

384
00:26:00.059 --> 00:26:06.059
They were about a foot shorter, which is why they sort of go up and get jagged and then you have garbage bags over the top.

385
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:09.539
Yeah, Lenny Maine wasn't happy about that either.

386
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.579
Yeah, no, were they really terrible?

387
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.279
And again, so is the exterior as well.

388
00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:26.220
The fact that instead of this beautiful bronze castle, you get that sort of crappy Blake 7 kind of door set into a wall kind of thing, which, you know, Doctor Who is guilty of over and over again.

389
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.299
But I mean, even the Daleks get a better door setting to a wall, you know, later on in the year.

390
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:32.160
And then we get the gel guards.

391
00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:34.859
Which, I mean, holy Moses.

392
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:36.180
What's that?

393
00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:39.539
They've got the they've got the core of axles, right?

394
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.619
Isn't it the cause of axis, that claw thing that they have to miss every single...

395
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:44.279
It is very similar.

396
00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:46.200
I'm looking at the action figure now, dear listener.

397
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:47.759
There is an action figure of a jail guard.

398
00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:49.619
It does one thing and I'll see if you can hear it.

399
00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:52.980
That's the claw moving.

400
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.839
That's the one thing this action figure does.

401
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:57.720
There's the prawn from invisible enemy borrower.

402
00:26:57.779 --> 00:26:58.559
I think so.

403
00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:00.839
If not the same, it's very similar.

404
00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.599
They need to keep using it contractually.

405
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:05.400
It's very expensive.

406
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:07.619
It reminds me.

407
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:14.039
They remind me of Sigmund the Sea Monster, who's Sid and Marty Croft creation from the 1970s.

408
00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:15.660
Yeah, Puff and stuff, isn't it?

409
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:16.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

410
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:18.180
They make a good noise.

411
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:28.319
Look, I think it's better than just having like generic soldier cyphers, which he could have done like, you know, like the Bardens or something like that.

412
00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:32.279
You know, at least they're different, but they can barely get through their own corridors.

413
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:33.539
No, they're criminal.

414
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:40.680
Well, they can't see because they've got a gigantic bicycle reflector attached to their foreheads, the actors inside.

415
00:27:40.740 --> 00:27:49.920
So imagine having a plate hanging down in front of your face and trying to navigate through doorways, which are about an inch too narrow for you.

416
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.880
So they have sort of, they didn't really think it through on the design front.

417
00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:56.400
They have sort of moving eyes, don't they?

418
00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:57.960
Like that to make the eye move.

419
00:27:58.079 --> 00:27:59.160
Yeah, it's a giant mirror.

420
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:01.440
So when they when they move visually, it's very effective.

421
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:05.819
But yeah, poor John Scott Martin, Etal just couldn't see out of those.

422
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.799
And John Scott Martin was inside one.

423
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:10.440
Coming back to the novelisation.

424
00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:18.420
I have the original cover for the novelisation here, which we're all familiar with, it's Omega, extending his energy hands across the 3 doctors.

425
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.240
Do we know what that is a ripoff of?

426
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:23.460
Oh, I've seen this before.

427
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:25.079
It's a comic book.

428
00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:33.779
It's Fantastic 4, issue 49. which has galactus in the place of Omega reaching out his energy tendrils over the Fantastic 4.

429
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:36.779
So we'll put up a comparison of that on the website.

430
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.480
But Chris Akellos, you naughty, naughty man.

431
00:28:39.539 --> 00:28:40.799
He is really good.

432
00:28:40.859 --> 00:28:42.539
I had the one which had a different cover.

433
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:43.440
Did you have that one?

434
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.880
I've got the maroon cover.

435
00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:46.019
Yeah, I had the Maroon cover.

436
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:47.940
With the 3 doctors on the space game.

437
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:48.900
I loved that.

438
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.099
I loved it.

439
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:59.339
And I remember reading it as a kid and I may have actually even read it before I actually saw the story on the screen and I kept saying to myself, I didn't realise the doctor had 2 companions, like 2 female companions.

440
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.859
There's Joe and this Bessie and Bessie doesn't say very much.

441
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.099
So I was completely confused.

442
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:07.500
You know, I must have been 5 or 6 at the time.

443
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:12.779
I didn't realise that a yellow roadster was actually a car. tremendous.

444
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:14.579
I do seem to recall as well.

445
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:22.799
That 2nd edition with the sort of Marone Burgundy cover is called Doctor Who and the Three Doctors, implying that there's 4 of them.

446
00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:23.099
Yes.

447
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:31.140
So can I say something where I think that this show, this story is where the rot sets in for the entire show?

448
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.279
Oh, hello.

449
00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:32.759
Yeah.

450
00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:36.720
For the entire show, it's like, particularly the 80s.

451
00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:39.660
You're saying everything is ruined forever.

452
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:40.380
Yeah, yeah.

453
00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:41.640
Okay, go on.

454
00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:47.279
So this is actually the 1st time we hear the phrase, the 2nd doctor, and it's said by one of the Timelords.

455
00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:48.960
So what happens here?

456
00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:53.579
inadvertently is that each of the doctors becomes a different character.

457
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:59.400
So we actually have the first, 2nd and 3rd doctor and they're defined against each other in some ways.

458
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:00.480
Do you know what I mean?

459
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:06.180
So Hartnell's become a dandy and a clown, the 2nd and 3rd doctor fight each other because they're so different.

460
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:19.859
And I think that a tendency sneaks in by the 80s to start to cast doctors, not to play the doctor, but to play the nth doctor.

461
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.700
Do you know what I mean?

462
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:22.079
So I...

463
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:24.660
So they have to be different from what's gone before.

464
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:26.579
They have to be if they have to have a 2 or 3 word description.

465
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:28.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

466
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:30.599
And they have to be different from what's immediately before.

467
00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:39.960
And they start creating a version of the doctor that if you were just starting the show, you would never have that.

468
00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:40.920
Do you know what I mean?

469
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:52.079
Like, you would never have, like, if we were to pitch the show in the 1980s, we'll have, well, there's an eccentric time traveller who dresses like a big giant clown, you know, and he travels around the universe.

470
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.339
Do you know what I mean?

471
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:54.059
You would just never do that.

472
00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:00.480
The only reason that that happens is because they're defining, they're creating a series of characters.

473
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:05.640
And I think the new show has largely avoided this.

474
00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:09.539
But it does become a problem in the 80s and I think the rot sets in here.

475
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.359
So naughty Barry, Dave, and Bob.

476
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:14.160
Yeah, it's an interesting point.

477
00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:16.200
I never really thought of it like that.

478
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:26.039
I mean, one of the things that I noticed was that Harton's supposed to be the elder statesmen, where, in fact, technically he's the youngest of the three, if you think about it, in terms of that age journey.

479
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:32.759
And we have to have conflict between the doctors, that irritated me a bit in the story, especially in episode four.

480
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:34.740
I thought by then maybe we can get on a bit better.

481
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:45.299
It does give Joe a few nice moments to interact and pull him into line and there's heart there and that sort of thing, but it's sort of like, well, you know, anytime we have a special, have any sort of interaction.

482
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.240
We have to have all this conflict and it's like, you know?

483
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:49.680
See, I actually quite like that.

484
00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:56.460
And I think it goes back to, we wouldn't have had that if it wasn't John Perley and Patrick Droughton being such different actors.

485
00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:06.960
Because on paper, those lines where they're having a pop at each other, could be performed completely differently to be affectionate barbs of, oh, you're really me, but I'm going to tell you off, you rascal.

486
00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:18.539
But instead, because John and Pat initially didn't get on very well because of their different acting methods, it brings something to the performance that as the 2 actors work together.

487
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:24.599
They started to appreciate each other more, and by the end, they were quite good friends, and that's what you see in the story as well.

488
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:27.240
They do come to respect each other as characters.

489
00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:32.220
And certainly, yeah, it informs every multi doctor meeting after that.

490
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:37.980
Interestingly, it's usually the incumbent doctor who's the grouchiest one.

491
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:50.279
But when we say in time crash, for instance, much later on, the 10th doctor is so happy to see the 5th doctor and it's Davison being the grouty one, which was quite fun.

492
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:54.660
And then in Day of the Doctor, it's hard to tell who's the grumpiest out of the lot.

493
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:56.519
Captain Grumpy is pretty grumpy.

494
00:32:56.579 --> 00:33:00.480
Captain Grumpy is pretty grumpy, but at the same time, he's the funniest of philosophy.

495
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:07.680
I think they don't nail Hartnell's character here too, and I think that they don't nail it in the 5 doctors either.

496
00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:13.140
He's a bit of an exposition machine in this, which is kind of necessitated.

497
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:17.460
But he's also the grumpy one and the 1st doctor is cuddly. you know what I mean?

498
00:33:17.579 --> 00:33:18.480
Everyone sort of forgets that.

499
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:22.619
And whenever when he gets brought back for the 3rd and the 5th doctors, he's the grumpy one.

500
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:23.400
Yes.

501
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:24.839
I think that's completely wrong.

502
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:31.200
I was quite surprised to see his 1st shot is actually in the garden, his garden, which mirrors the 5 doctors.

503
00:33:31.259 --> 00:33:32.880
And I never realised that.

504
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:35.579
I love the idea that it's actually the same day for him.

505
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:40.019
And that's why he's running away from the obelisk so fast because he's like, oh, not a bloody guy.

506
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:48.539
That's why he's so annoyed all the way through the 5 doctors because he's already he's already had this today.

507
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:55.619
He's just trying to relax in Sir Charles's garden while he's trying to visit Dodo, and that's why he leaves without saying goodbye.

508
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.140
There are so many links to Dodo in this story.

509
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:00.180
It's it's dodo matic.

510
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:01.140
Dodo tastic.

511
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.160
Dodo tastic.

512
00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:04.440
Well, I never thought I'd be hearing that.

513
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:05.460
Ever.

514
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.539
It's really great that as a script editor.

515
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:24.300
Terrence Sticks sees the necessity to ensure that John Pertwee in this anniversary story gets to pull a face, a gurning face when he's wriving around on the ground, attacked by that creature thing, comedy gold.

516
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:26.579
Thank you, Terence, you knew we wanted it.

517
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:27.179
It had to be there.

518
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.739
That was actually in my notes.

519
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:34.139
I'm keeping a special eye out for per twig earning after your definitive per twig earn list.

520
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.900
So, yeah, it says a terrific one, isn't it?

521
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.260
It's happening less, but for the anniversary story here. sure it was in there.

522
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.179
And I just want to say about that fight.

523
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.639
Pertwee is a very poor wrestler.

524
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:49.019
He goes to his back about 3 times and that's why he ends up being choked.

525
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:50.699
You know, he's just really terrible at it.

526
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:55.079
It's interesting that this is the 1st story of the season.

527
00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:57.840
They could have put it, you know, last or something.

528
00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:09.780
Obviously, the production team want to start the 10th series with a bang. previous year, they wanted the Daleks in it to launch that season with the bang.

529
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:37.139
And of course, we saw last year with the Dalek story, it was the 1st story, since Galaxy 4, to have every single episode rating above 9000000 and the 1st time since the Daleks Master plan that you've got an episode above 10000000 in this story, what I really love is the fact that Patrick Trouton finally gets 3 episodes of Doctor Who, that are rated above 9000000 viewers.

530
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:48.480
Episode 2 is the 1st time that he gets an episode rated above 10000000 and in the top 25, and then finally, in episode 4, 11.900000 people tune in, and it's number 17 for the week.

531
00:35:48.539 --> 00:35:51.780
The only episode of Doctor Who that Patrick Trout actually gets in the top 20.

532
00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:52.920
Fantastic.

533
00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:57.239
I mean, it has it has that amazing radio times thing, which comes out.

534
00:35:57.300 --> 00:36:07.619
You know, the 10th anniversary special of the Radio Times is released on the day that the 1st episode is broadcast and it's got like articles about the history of Doctor Who.

535
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:12.539
I think it's still possible to get us a PDF and I did search the internet for a long time, but it wasn't successful.

536
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:14.460
So everyone knew it was a big event.

537
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:22.079
Everyone knew that all of the doctors were coming, which is why all 3 of them carefully appear in that 1st episode because everyone's waiting for them.

538
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:25.260
And like there's interviews with Carol Anne and stuff in it.

539
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:26.159
It's a big deal.

540
00:36:26.219 --> 00:36:32.820
I think they reissued it for the 20th and I think maybe Doctor Who magazine has issued it at some point.

541
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.420
I'm not sure.

542
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:44.820
Yes, and also about 8 or 9 years ago, I think in the wake of Christopher Eccleston's 1st series, the ABC reprinted it as a magazine in Australia.

543
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:48.179
I was working at the ABC shop at the time and it just flew off the shelves.

544
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.099
We had to order extra copies in from other shops.

545
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:57.599
And the great thing was, because it's filled with things like the 5th Hartle story being called the Sea of Death.

546
00:36:57.659 --> 00:36:59.039
Oh, really?

547
00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:00.840
Instead of the piece of mariners.

548
00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:02.039
Yeah they don't correct it.

549
00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:04.860
All of the Hartnell stories are just called after their 1st episode.

550
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.440
Oh, so it's like the dead planet.

551
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:07.860
The dead.

552
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.500
Dead planet, world's end for...

553
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.460
Yeah, yeah, it was great.

554
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:13.860
That was insanely popular.

555
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:20.340
And it just goes to kind of show how iconic this story.

556
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:20.760
It's.

557
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:27.420
I mean, pert we is probably the 1st of the truly iconic doctors for the public rather than just for fans.

558
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:32.099
People sort of recognise him with a shock of white hair and the cloak and what have you.

559
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.980
And that's the image he has in that photo shoot.

560
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:35.820
Yeah.

561
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:41.340
And also another public idea is they know there are different doctors and they know they meet occasionally.

562
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:50.280
So rather than the ABC commissioning a new magazine about Christopher Eccleston or David Tennant who'd been cast by then.

563
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:56.699
They decide to go back to the 10th anniversary special, not the 20th anniversary Twim special, not the 30th anniversary Twim special.

564
00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:58.739
They go back to this story.

565
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:16.980
So maybe this is another reason why this story is the beginning of the end as well because suddenly suddenly it's a big fan reference work with or, you know, a list of stories and all of that sort of thing and it just, you know, starts to make possible because we don't have repeats really.

566
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:21.659
We can't watch it at home, but we do have the radio times, you know.

567
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:33.659
So, you know, it enabled us to all get our anorax on and memorise lists of production codes and things to a degree that would eventually, you know, kill the show in the 90s.

568
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:40.739
Yeah, and then people go and record themselves talking about it. and force it into people's iPhones.

569
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.659
So maybe it's just the beginning.

570
00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:56.099
Well, all aboard the SS Bernice, it's time to visit the Carnival of Monsters.

571
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:57.059
Todd, this was yours.

572
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:03.360
It was, and as you may recall, I was a little bit less than impressed that I'd actually then given this one.

573
00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:05.340
Well, it's terrible, isn't it?

574
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.199
Well, of course, yes.

575
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:08.579
No, it's funny.

576
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:18.179
As a kid, when you were watching Doctor Who, there were certain stories, especially here in Australia with the repeats, that some you connect with and some you never did, you know?

577
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:24.659
And I can probably count 4 or 5 on the one hand that I always used to think, oh, I don't like this one.

578
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:26.280
Can we just get to the next one?

579
00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:28.260
The invisible enemy?

580
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.880
Underworld.

581
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:34.019
The Sunmakers, Reposs operation, and this story.

582
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:35.099
Goodness.

583
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.260
That's 3 Bob Holmes. story.

584
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.559
So I'm going to take away your Blue Peter badge, for God's sake.

585
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.860
We'll discuss those ones later on.

586
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:46.860
Obviously, I have revised my opinion on a couple of those.

587
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:51.239
But as a kid, I didn't connect with those particular adventures, and this was one of them.

588
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:57.179
And so I've always voted this like, you know, in the Dwin surveys like 2 out of 10, right?

589
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:02.760
And it's like me, you know, like literally I really disliked it that much.

590
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.519
Is there some other podcast you'd like to work on?

591
00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:12.000
So coming into this, you know, I always knew that it was good, right, in my heart of hearts.

592
00:40:12.059 --> 00:40:22.559
And so it begins with 2 blue aliens talking about aliens coming to their world to take over their jobs, et cetera.

593
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:24.239
And it's very clever.

594
00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:28.380
I really love the performances of Michael Wisher.

595
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:30.780
Terrence Lodge.

596
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.840
And the superb Peter Halliday.

597
00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:40.260
And of course, wow, ambassadors.

598
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:50.639
They, that, the whole plotline, that is set literally within one set and a half is just phenomenal, and I never appreciate it as a kid.

599
00:40:50.699 --> 00:41:01.500
It is so clever, and I was just totally engrossed by their performances, especially, although they're all really, really good, but I really like Terrence Lodge as oral.

600
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.340
Do you know, I think Michael Wisher is absolutely hilarious.

601
00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:07.079
It is unbelievably funny.

602
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:09.719
He's having such a wonderful time.

603
00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:14.159
He's really sarcastic and laid back and he says that like, what happens?

604
00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:19.500
I think they fail to destroy the miniscope with the eradicator and he just goes, bravo.

605
00:41:20.579 --> 00:41:23.039
You want to know who it is.

606
00:41:23.099 --> 00:41:28.800
And before they were even created, Michael Wisher as Karlic is Sir Humphrey Appleby.

607
00:41:28.860 --> 00:41:31.920
Peter Halliday's player track is Jim Hacker.

608
00:41:31.980 --> 00:41:39.000
And that leaves poor Terrence Lodge. as Orum in the role of Bernard.

609
00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:40.739
You know, it's yes minister in space.

610
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:45.300
Well, I mean, they are British civil servants, which is why they're gray and gray haired and bald.

611
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:46.559
Yes, you know what I mean?

612
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:49.199
they're and they're called they're called the officials.

613
00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:51.300
I mean, that's actually the name of their race.

614
00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:54.179
So they're the officials and they have the functionaries.

615
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.119
And so there's this very sort of class-based thing.

616
00:41:57.179 --> 00:42:00.300
And it's really sort of hilarious, traditional class-based things.

617
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:08.940
The most telling moment, I think, is Orum says that the functionaries that if you give them a hygiene chamber, they store fossil fuel in it.

618
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:25.260
If you go to George Orwell in the road to Wigan Pier, which was published in 1937, he speculates that old ladies in Brighton boarding houses are saying that if you give those minors baths, they only use them to store coal in.

619
00:42:25.260 --> 00:42:30.239
So it is like this sort of famous thing that you said about the working classes.

620
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:32.820
So there's this whole sort of big class-based thing.

621
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:39.300
Is it also about the fact that Britain has joined the ECC, is that right?

622
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:47.039
And there might be people from the continent coming over to work or anything like that. like Vorg and Sherman turning up.

623
00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:48.360
Like, is it a commentary on that?

624
00:42:48.420 --> 00:43:03.900
Well, I think that I think that there's something in the Pertz we era generally, and we've said this before, where the Pertu era sees like supernational action, things like diplomacy and interactions between countries as inherently progressive.

625
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:12.239
And so in Mind of Evil and Day of the Daleks, it's seen as a wave of averting war, uh, in Curse of Paladon, it's seen as a great good.

626
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.519
You know, unit is a United Nations thing.

627
00:43:14.579 --> 00:43:21.780
And so one way that the Pertuera has of coding people as conservative is to have them as isolationist.

628
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:28.860
And all of that is happening at the same time as the European economic community sort of happening and all of that sort of thing.

629
00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:34.920
So, yeah, I think there are sort of links to it, but it just makes them sort of stuffy and conservative, I think.

630
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:37.800
Yeah, and in the case of Borg and Scherner.

631
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:48.780
I think possibly not an overt reference, but I think they are a reference to the traveller or gypsy, as they would have been known then, and Roma cultures in the UK.

632
00:43:48.900 --> 00:43:50.880
Hence the speaking of polari.

633
00:43:50.940 --> 00:44:01.440
So when Vorg finally meets the dot, he tries to speak to him in that sort of carnival code language, Polari, and the doctor doesn't know it.

634
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:04.199
But there's a parallel between the politics here.

635
00:44:04.260 --> 00:44:18.360
And of course, when we get onto the SS Bernice, Major Daly and his daughter are travelling to India, which is, you know, part of the British Empire at the time, and they're still calling them Bombay.

636
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:19.500
That's right.

637
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:32.940
And they have, you know, there are Indian servants on board the ship and Major Daily has a plantation and he won't have people from Southern India working on the plantation because they're too idle and all of that sort of thing.

638
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:41.219
So the same kind of conservatism and racism is evident on the SS Bernice, as is evident on interminor.

639
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:43.139
But what is really funny.

640
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:48.900
And I think that this is the key to this story is that it's a commentary on Doctor Who.

641
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:53.760
Right, okay. and on television, the nature of television.

642
00:44:53.820 --> 00:45:00.300
And so at one point, Vorgen Scherner, who I think of other doctor and his companion.

643
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:03.840
So they're disreputable, they wear silly clothes.

644
00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:09.239
They have a magical device that lets you experience things from all throughout time and space.

645
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:19.440
And they say that they're just purely to entertain nothing serious, nothing political, but it's in a story with all of this politics. and stuff in it.

646
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:22.019
And so the mini scope is very definitely a television, isn't it?

647
00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:26.460
And just like the word television, it's made up of a Greek word and a Latin word.

648
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.219
Like television really should be teleopsis, shouldn't it, really?

649
00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:32.639
If it's going to be all Greek, but mini scoped, you know what I mean?

650
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:35.460
Mini's Latin and scope is Greek.

651
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:38.219
And it's a screen, but you look on.

652
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:39.539
And what do you see when you look in there?

653
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:41.219
You see Doctor Who monsters.

654
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:42.000
Do you know what I mean?

655
00:45:42.059 --> 00:45:43.260
You see overons.

656
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:48.840
And so, so it's a carnival of monsters, much like Doctor Who, the miniscope is a carnival of monsters.

657
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:57.179
And the very 1st story that we see is a sort of crap story where people from Great Britain are attacked by dinosaurs.

658
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:57.900
Do you know what I mean?

659
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:05.400
And they're needlessly aggressive towards one another and stuff because you turn up the aggression knob so that they can be entertaining.

660
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:10.619
You know, the trashings are great favourites with the kiddies because they attack one other and stuff.

661
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.260
And so the whole thing is about Doctor Who.

662
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:18.480
And then when finally we get off the SS Bernice, we're wandering around in the back of a television.

663
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:23.159
And so all of those dials and panels and stuff, it's like a big giant television.

664
00:46:23.219 --> 00:46:24.900
You've seen that, haven't you?

665
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:26.760
This is everything you were going to say, isn't it?

666
00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:28.440
Oh, evidently.

667
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:30.900
Well, no, it wasn't.

668
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:43.260
You know, this is why I think you've really hit the name of the head why this story works on so many levels and why it is so clever and actually so, so good. despite all the 70s production values.

669
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:46.739
And I want to talk about and I want to talk about them in a moment.

670
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.139
I never thought about some of those things, Nathan.

671
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:50.460
I think that's very, very clever.

672
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:55.079
I mean, I'm not the 1st person, I think, to kind of observe it.

673
00:46:55.139 --> 00:46:55.860
Do you know what I mean?

674
00:46:55.920 --> 00:47:01.860
And sort of say, and if it talks about it, and about time talks about them crawling around in the back of television and stuff.

675
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.960
I think it's really interesting then.

676
00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:13.980
The doctor's commentary that he tried to have miniscopes banned because there were actual living creatures inside who were being, who were being tortured and exploited.

677
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:17.280
So is, you know, is that a commentary on the life of an actor?

678
00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:30.119
I reckon the best thing, and it people mention it over and over again. where it suggested to Joe that there are people outside watching her being menaced by drashings for entertainment.

679
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:34.199
And she says, they must be evil and horrible.

680
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:38.280
I have to give it to Bob Holmes.

681
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:39.599
He's brilliant, isn't he?

682
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:40.619
He is so clever.

683
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:43.500
But when I dressed up with it, that's exactly what Katie said to me.

684
00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:45.119
So you must be evil enough.

685
00:47:48.179 --> 00:47:50.340
To take it back to the production values.

686
00:47:50.400 --> 00:48:08.940
Like I was, as it began and they're standing against a blue CSO sky and I went, it's really early to introduce CSO, I wonder who directed this story and I grabbed the DVD and it was like, it's Barry, let's, at least I'm prepared for it, you know, over the next 4 episodes.

687
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:17.699
And then we see the functionaries with their full on head masks, which I'm going to have to nominate for the Jenny Laird Award.

688
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:18.900
Spoiler alert.

689
00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:29.340
And at the same time, they're then offloading, some wonderful space Christmas presents, which I'm also going to be nominating for the Jenny Maird Award.

690
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:33.300
This is the beginning of my nominations for this season.

691
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:38.460
And of course, they offload Vorg and Schurner.

692
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.980
And can I just say Leslie Dwyer as Vogue?

693
00:48:41.219 --> 00:48:45.179
Just pies that role to perfection.

694
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:46.559
Is really funny?

695
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:47.400
He isn't.

696
00:48:47.460 --> 00:48:49.199
He just makes it, you know?

697
00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:52.079
I do have a problem in episode four.

698
00:48:52.139 --> 00:49:03.059
The character just becomes more and more, well, I think buffoonish and I just wanted him to stop and actually say no, there are people in there.

699
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:04.079
I'm going to do something.

700
00:49:04.139 --> 00:49:11.159
And I know that's part of the script and it's part of the anxiety and it reminded me of why I disliked part of this story as a kid.

701
00:49:11.219 --> 00:49:14.880
It just really got to me and it got to me again watching this.

702
00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:16.500
I just wanted to whack him in the face.

703
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:22.559
Um, But it's, Scherner, that I have to talk about, Shell Hall.

704
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:26.159
I think she is just fantastic.

705
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:29.699
The character is unbelievable.

706
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:36.059
It builds on the 2 strong female characters from or 2 or 3 strong female characters from last season.

707
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:41.940
Jane in the Sea Devils. and then the secretary back in Day of the Daleks.

708
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:43.440
Miss Paget.

709
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:44.639
I always forget their names.

710
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:46.559
Third Officer Blythe.

711
00:49:46.619 --> 00:49:55.559
Third officer Blythe, who are these female characters who are in these more subservient roles, but who are completely more competent than the people who are above them.

712
00:49:55.619 --> 00:49:57.659
And here, she understands machine.

713
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:01.079
She's got heart, she's the, she's the one who's driving everything forward.

714
00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:04.260
When the doctor turns up, he treats her with such respect.

715
00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:10.380
And I just think it's the performance of the Pertuy era.

716
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:21.300
I've now watched every single perjury story, and I just think she is phenomenal, and the last shot of the story, where she sees the tan is dematerialised, and then she has that, it comes to her with the smile on her face.

717
00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:25.980
Oh, I'm getting goosebumps now just talking about.

718
00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:26.639
Yeah, yeah.

719
00:50:26.699 --> 00:50:32.280
It's the similar moment to the end of Colony in space when the doctor says to Joe, don't tell him he'll never believe you.

720
00:50:32.820 --> 00:50:51.360
Another thing about Schurner is that friend of the podcast, Charles Christopher, actually, a few years ago when we 1st met on an online forum, he was asking if people could take a screen grab of Schurner, full-length shot of Schurner in her outfit.

721
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:55.199
So I sent him a screen grab of her after she's done a little dance.

722
00:50:55.199 --> 00:51:01.139
And it turns out he is, he was getting a friend to make a Schoner costume for a Barbie doll.

723
00:51:01.380 --> 00:51:02.760
Really?

724
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:04.980
And now I'm not sure if that ever materialised.

725
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:06.599
So, Chris, I'm going to be asking you about that later.

726
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:08.099
We want a photo?

727
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:10.980
I was hoping it was going to end that he was going to have a Shona costume.

728
00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:12.300
Yeah, that's what I thought this was going.

729
00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:13.440
Yeah, that would have been much better.

730
00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:16.079
He would look amazing in a show no costume.

731
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:18.780
Well, who has she got her own action figure?

732
00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:21.480
Because she does.

733
00:51:21.539 --> 00:51:23.940
Yeah, with all those flanian pobblebeeds coming off.

734
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:28.619
So, Chris, we either need to see your Shona Barbie. we need to see you as Sherna, one of the two.

735
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:30.239
You'll put it on the website.

736
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:31.500
It'll be in the show notes.

737
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:33.599
What about you, Brendan?

738
00:51:35.579 --> 00:51:49.739
Vorgen, Shoner, they are a version of the Doctor and Joe. As you were saying earlier, and yeah, it just serves to emphasise that as good as pertly has become as the doctor, and, you know, I think he started very strongly anyway.

739
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:52.980
And as well as his character has developed.

740
00:51:53.460 --> 00:52:01.980
Joe's kind of the reason you watch the show and she's where you derive most of enjoyment from the show from Katie's performance and Katie's joy for it.

741
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.059
So to have that effectively duplicated in this story.

742
00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:09.539
Yeah, even with the doctor and Joe separated, he's got Scherner.

743
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:13.559
And she is the magical component of the story.

744
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:19.260
She is the magic of the viewer, and she's the one who shows concern for the creatures inside the scope.

745
00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:25.139
But you also understands the workings of the scope, whereas he's had it for years and has absolutely no idea whatsoever.

746
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:27.840
Yeah, which, again, the doctor with the Tartars.

747
00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:35.099
It's funny when he pops out of the shoot or whatever at the beginning and he's got his colourful costume on and all those circles.

748
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:43.019
I kind of, I sort of squinted my eyes and I kind of thought, yeah, it sort of, if you squint, it sort of becomes like a patchwork, sort of like the 6 doctors costume.

749
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:48.059
And so I'm sort of thinking, you know, maybe somebody's looked at this for referencing years too.

750
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:53.159
One of the fan fiction anthologies in the late 90s or early 2000s, the ones done for charity.

751
00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:56.280
And if you're listening, I can't remember your name.

752
00:52:56.340 --> 00:53:14.940
I'm very sorry, but someone wrote a short story, say a 100 words or so, which had Joe looking through an old photo album of unit, and the 3rd doctor is holding this vulgarly coloured coat that Vorg had given him to say thank you for helping them with the drashings.

753
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:18.480
And Joe always remembered that the doctor said, I will never wear this.

754
00:53:19.980 --> 00:53:31.860
They're explicitly parallelled when they're 1st introduced because the moment that something goes wrong with the machine and Vorg notices, I think almost in the next scene, Pert, we realises he's steered the TARDIS in the wrong place as well.

755
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.239
So it is, I mean, it is sort of pretty explicit, I think.

756
00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:54.539
I find the, the, the dialogue really clever in the 1st couple of episodes when the doctor and Joe have, of course, landed on ship and the repetition of those scenes is really, it's really fun and you know it's going to happen, but it's slightly different and I'm really enjoying it.

757
00:53:54.599 --> 00:54:02.039
By the time you get to episode 4 where, you know, the heat's happening and the creatures are there and they're, you know, Claire's failing around and she's almost just remembering.

758
00:54:02.099 --> 00:54:03.840
I'm just there going, I'm over this dialogue.

759
00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:04.500
I'm over it.

760
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:05.219
I'm over it.

761
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:07.559
I mean, even Joe says, you know, here we go again.

762
00:54:07.619 --> 00:54:09.599
Yeah, I like how Joe's sick of it.

763
00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:10.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

764
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:11.400
So I was sick of that.

765
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:14.519
Parallel to Borg's ineptitude.

766
00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:15.239
I was sick of that.

767
00:54:15.300 --> 00:54:30.360
And then just before that, they're menished by the jazz eggs and Joe's getting more and more and more hysterical and I just wanted to slap her and I'm going, Bob, you've dropped the ball on this, you know, I this is not the Joe that I know, you know?

768
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:36.119
But wait, just as I was ready to write it down, then they pause.

769
00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:38.099
They have a conversation, right?

770
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:49.139
And the doctor is explaining something to Joe, and it's about lateral thinking, and the doctor explains what it is, but Joe doesn't quite get the right meaning in terms of her interpretation, but the outcome that she gets at the end is right.

771
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:52.739
She suddenly says, right, they're going back for the rope and you can get out of here and you can help us.

772
00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:57.119
And it's just this wonderful moment of, I think, what would you call it?

773
00:54:57.179 --> 00:54:58.019
serendipity.

774
00:54:58.079 --> 00:54:59.280
Yes, yeah, absolutely.

775
00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:03.960
Yeah, the doctor's talking about lateral thinking being sideways thinking instead of approaching the problem head on.

776
00:55:04.019 --> 00:55:08.340
And Joe takes it literally and says, well, if we go sideways, we're back in the ship, where there's root.

777
00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:13.739
And the look on the doctor's faces, but that's not what I, but it, but you, okay, fine.

778
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:15.659
It's a lovely moment.

779
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:17.820
She is still hypercompetent in this.

780
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:21.179
Like she's got her talent for bluffing, which she showed in curse of peladon.

781
00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:24.840
Like she's the one who comes up with the story about it being her uncle.

782
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:30.480
And in fact, it's Pertuy who spoils it by sort of proudly insisting, no, on the contrary, I'm a very good traveller.

783
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:31.980
Yes, exactly.

784
00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:32.519
Yeah, yeah.

785
00:55:32.579 --> 00:55:35.159
And she's got skeleton keys and all of that sort of thing.

786
00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:38.760
Like she's still, she's still vastly more competent than people give her credit for, I think.

787
00:55:38.820 --> 00:55:40.860
Yeah, and the place where she's so good.

788
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:58.800
And I think this is part of the evidence that Robert Holmes is writing so much better for women now is her conversation with Claire, played wonderfully by Jenny McCracken, where she almost convinces Claire that there's something weird going on.

789
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:05.280
And there's that great blog which has tested every store, every Doctor Who story against the Beckadell test.

790
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:17.820
And it singles out this story in particular because Joe and Claire are having this conversation about big concepts, about the quality of memory.

791
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:25.679
And Joe isn't talking down to this girl from 50 years in her past, you know, she's talking to her as an equal and trying to get her to understand.

792
00:56:25.739 --> 00:56:27.539
She doesn't try to get any of the men to understand.

793
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:37.139
You know, she goes for someone young, whose mind is flexible, and who is obviously intelligent because she's been commenting that things are strange before anyway.

794
00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:39.840
I think it's a really powerful scene.

795
00:56:39.900 --> 00:56:46.139
It's a great scene for Katie because it's not often that Katie gets to act opposite someone her own age.

796
00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:50.579
And it's a great scene for that guest cast member as well.

797
00:56:50.639 --> 00:57:03.420
So we have 2 really strong female characters in this, who even though they are coded into subservient roles. are both very intelligent characters with their own motivations and their own thoughts.

798
00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:08.039
Joe's growth, you know, since the beginning is just so evident.

799
00:57:08.099 --> 00:57:15.719
No, she lets the doctor escape when, you know, she's seen staying away and he's into that sort of thing later on in the story as well.

800
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:19.019
I think I think she's actually like that from the beginning, though.

801
00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:23.639
Remember Tariff the Ordon, she ignores the doctor's instructions and goes to rescue him.

802
00:57:23.699 --> 00:57:30.239
You know, like, I'm not entirely convinced of a character to development, and we'll talk about that maybe when we come to frontier in space.

803
00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:37.440
But I just think that she's been terribly competent and terribly plucky and just really, really fun to watch all the way through.

804
00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:40.679
Yeah, I think what's really increased has been her confidence.

805
00:57:40.739 --> 00:57:45.719
I think when she starts in terror of the oil tons, she thinks that she can do these things.

806
00:57:45.780 --> 00:57:49.739
And the difference this season is now she knows that she can do these things.

807
00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:54.780
And I'll talk about that more when we get to Planet of the Daleks as well, which I know you're looking forward to, Todd.

808
00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:56.940
Like a hole in the head. but anyway.

809
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:08.519
So I want to talk about one of the guest stars in this particular story, which you haven't mentioned yet, and he's on the ship, and he's an actor by the name of Ian Marta.

810
00:58:08.579 --> 00:58:09.780
Hooray.

811
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:17.219
His 1st role in Doctor Who, and of course, he's going to turn up in a couple of seasons as the wonderful Harry Sullivan.

812
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:23.400
That's unthinkable that someone in a guest role in Doctor Who should later turn up as a regular character.

813
00:58:23.460 --> 00:58:24.000
Yeah.

814
00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:26.159
And you know, I, it should be banned.

815
00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:27.420
You can talk to Peter.

816
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:28.320
He's not allowed to do it.

817
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:29.039
Yeah, yeah.

818
00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:30.300
Colin Baker.

819
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.099
Peter Capaldi.

820
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:32.880
Karen Gillan.

821
00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:33.659
Oh, God.

822
00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:34.139
Yeah.

823
00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:35.219
It happens all the time.

824
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:36.300
Hey, I love...

825
00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:37.260
I like Karen.

826
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:45.420
And of course, Ian Marta auditioned for the role of Captain Yates and had to turn the role down because he had other commitments.

827
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.159
Yeah, he was the 1st choice for the role, yeah.

828
00:58:47.219 --> 00:58:49.260
And I'm glad that he turned it down.

829
00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:51.119
So that we forget him as Harry, really.

830
00:58:51.179 --> 00:58:52.079
He's spectacular.

831
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:53.219
And he's great in this.

832
00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:59.099
He really is, you know, he's angry and he needs to be angry and then, you know, oh, I've forgotten about everything and who are you and that sort of thing.

833
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:00.780
Isn't it funny though?

834
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:03.300
regular cast having played someone else earlier on?

835
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:05.280
He tries to punch the doctor.

836
00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:07.739
Colin Baker shoots the doctor.

837
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:12.179
Karen Gillan is part of a cult that tries to sacrifice Donna and the doctor.

838
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:18.420
Freeman Adjuman is working for Torture and becomes a cyberslave.

839
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:20.820
And they're trying to get at the doctor.

840
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:35.219
So I think the only, possibly the only person who's appeared prior to getting a regular role, who hasn't tried to kill the doctor is Peter Purvis, because even Lala Ward was in the thrall of the shadow and tried to kill the doctor.

841
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.019
Yeah, Lala Ward, gee, it happens all the time.

842
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:39.659
Oh, yeah, this show's lazy, isn't it?

843
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:42.900
Open spotlight, for God's sake. not that hard.

844
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:43.800
You know what you find someone else.

845
00:59:43.860 --> 00:59:47.760
You'd think the doctor would see a new companion and go, actually, you look like someone who tried to kill me.

846
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:49.199
No, we're not doing this.

847
00:59:49.260 --> 00:59:50.099
We're not doing this thing.

848
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:55.139
It's really good in the miniscope that you get to see a cyberman.

849
00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:58.559
Like that's, you know, for the only time really in the perch.

850
00:59:58.619 --> 00:59:59.460
A blob in a snowstorm.

851
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:00.539
Yeah, that's right.

852
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:05.159
Yeah, we get a still frame in mind of evil, but this is the only one that's moving and its head's not on properly.

853
01:00:05.219 --> 01:00:13.019
It would have been quite nice to have gone into that particular, um, the German doctor have gone through that door into, to meet the Sardan.

854
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:19.500
But instead they go through another door into some marshes and they meet the terrifying drashics.

855
01:00:19.559 --> 01:00:23.579
Well, I think the drastics are really well realised when they're in the marshes, you know, how the head pops up and everything.

856
01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:27.900
And it sort of does this turn and like, and water comes off it and stuff.

857
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:29.159
I think they're really good.

858
01:00:29.219 --> 01:00:30.599
And then when it bursts...

859
01:00:30.659 --> 01:00:35.940
Yeah, and when they burst through the wall in to the back of the workings of the machine.

860
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:36.599
That's really good.

861
01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:43.500
Regrettably, of course, we then get the CSO moments on the ship where they burst through walls and up through the middle of the ship.

862
01:00:43.619 --> 01:00:45.719
They're still better than the Pleicius or...

863
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:48.239
Poke's little head through the...

864
01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:48.960
Peekaboo.

865
01:00:49.019 --> 01:00:51.239
I want to talk about puppets later.

866
01:00:51.300 --> 01:00:55.800
Puppets as Doctor Who monsters, because, you know, it always it always ends well.

867
01:00:55.860 --> 01:01:04.679
Oh, there is a great special effect, of course, when Vorg puts his finger into the workings of the miniscope.

868
01:01:04.739 --> 01:01:11.340
And if you look at his fingernail, it's completely full of grind.

869
01:01:11.460 --> 01:01:12.719
Yeah, yeah, filthy.

870
01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:14.159
It's just disgusting.

871
01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:17.039
I'm nominating it for Jenny Leaderboard.

872
01:01:17.099 --> 01:01:18.780
I mean, guys don't think about, you know.

873
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:21.059
Is he picking up the TARDS then or is that where you're going?

874
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:23.579
No, no, this is where he's trying to distract the drashigs when they're chasing.

875
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:25.139
I'm not sure, but it's...

876
01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:26.940
Actually, yeah, they're filthy when he picks up the title.

877
01:01:27.059 --> 01:01:27.780
Oh, it's revolting.

878
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:30.599
Like when you see it, you can never unsee a deal.

879
01:01:30.659 --> 01:01:32.039
Go back, watch it and you'll see it there.

880
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:33.659
On my nominations list.

881
01:01:33.719 --> 01:01:38.880
I love that because that cliffhanger to episode 3 where they're being menaced by the drash eggs.

882
01:01:38.940 --> 01:01:40.980
Episode 2 is where they're being...

883
01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:43.440
Oh, episode 3 is the doctor appears.

884
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:45.059
Yes, which is...

885
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:46.860
That cliffhanger.

886
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:51.960
Sorry to interrupt, but that cliffhanger to episode three, the doctor stumbling out and falling on the ground.

887
01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:53.639
That is my first memory of Doctor Who.

888
01:01:53.699 --> 01:01:55.139
Oh, wow.

889
01:01:55.139 --> 01:02:00.420
Well, the episode 2 Cliffhanger is so fabulous because they're all watching it on the miniscope.

890
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:01.260
Do you know what I mean?

891
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:04.199
It's actually sure that it intervenes to solve the cliffhanger.

892
01:02:04.260 --> 01:02:06.480
Yeah, but they're watching it when we're watching it.

893
01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:07.739
We're watching...

894
01:02:07.739 --> 01:02:13.980
Schernavorg and the Interminorians watching the Dr. and Joe watching the drashings.

895
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:14.940
It's wonderful.

896
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:15.840
Just proofing.

897
01:02:15.900 --> 01:02:17.880
And, you know, we'll be screaming at the screen.

898
01:02:17.940 --> 01:02:20.219
Do something, do something, and then Shona does something.

899
01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:23.940
Do you like the set of the inner workings that Joe and I?

900
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:24.780
crawl around in.

901
01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:30.960
It's not great, but it does look, I mean, it looks like the insides of a television, I think, and that's, you know...

902
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:32.820
Yeah, I think it's really good.

903
01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:47.099
And I think the use of the black backdrop is really good and the fact that they make all the little bits of it look so different, so they can shoot it from different angles and you are convinced that they've travelled a few miles.

904
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:50.099
We haven't really talked about, like this looks cheap.

905
01:02:50.219 --> 01:02:51.300
Do you know what I mean?

906
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.099
But it is deliberately the cheap episode.

907
01:02:53.219 --> 01:03:07.139
And the way that lets does it is he can employ the SS Bernice characters for 2 weeks and he can employ the people on into minor for 2 weeks because they never meet one another.

908
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:11.159
They're the only people you have to pay for 4 episodes of the doctor and show.

909
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:13.980
And so it's deliberately their cheap episode.

910
01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:17.940
And Sandifer points out, look, it's the cheap episode, but who do they get to direct?

911
01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:18.960
They get Barry Letz?

912
01:03:19.019 --> 01:03:20.159
You know, who do they get to write it?

913
01:03:20.219 --> 01:03:21.059
They get Bob Holmes.

914
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:21.480
Yeah.

915
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:30.300
And so they do get this really good story, but it's their money saving story after they blew the budget on Omega's fantastic grotto.

916
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:37.559
And of course, Frontier in Space, where it's considerable London location filming had been shot at this point as well.

917
01:03:37.619 --> 01:03:45.599
It's really quite effective because if we count it out, you've got the interminor set, which is really one. 5 rooms, as you said earlier, Todd.

918
01:03:45.659 --> 01:03:46.860
And crummy, isn't it?

919
01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:47.219
Yeah.

920
01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:51.360
You've got, I think, 4 sets on the SS Bernice.

921
01:03:51.420 --> 01:03:54.900
But the cabin, the corridor, the crew room and the hold.

922
01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:55.500
Yeah.

923
01:03:55.500 --> 01:03:58.920
And all the location shooting is on that boat.

924
01:03:58.980 --> 01:04:00.719
Or in the marshes.

925
01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:01.920
Oh, in the marshes.

926
01:04:01.980 --> 01:04:04.800
And the captain's only on location, like only in one scene.

927
01:04:04.860 --> 01:04:05.699
Exactly.

928
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:10.019
And the boat itself was a great economical measure.

929
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:15.960
What Barry Letsey was, he found an appropriate boat that was being towed up the coast for scraps, so it was going anyway.

930
01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:21.420
And the company towing it or the owner said, oh, yeah, sure.

931
01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:26.340
Yeah, you can come in and film with us and you don't have to pay us a fee or you only have to pay us a nominal fee.

932
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:32.699
And then, of course, pert we nicked the ship's compass, which is the one part that the owner wanted to keep and had to give it back.

933
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:35.400
Like you do, man.

934
01:04:35.460 --> 01:04:37.800
To be fair, he thought, it's going to be junked.

935
01:04:37.860 --> 01:04:43.199
I'll just take this, but apparently, and well, I think pert we knew this having been an old Navy man.

936
01:04:43.260 --> 01:04:47.280
It's traditional for the owner or a captain of a ship. to keep the compass when it's junk.

937
01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:49.260
Part of the plotline.

938
01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:50.699
I just want clarified in my own head.

939
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:53.039
Well, there's actually two.

940
01:04:53.099 --> 01:04:58.019
So the doctor has been part of the team that bans these many scopes.

941
01:04:58.079 --> 01:04:58.679
When does that happen?

942
01:04:58.739 --> 01:05:10.920
Does it happen when he's like, Hartnell is a young man when the Time Lords were still going out there and interfering a bit and then something goes wrong and they stop doing that and therefore after 150 years, he then decides to leave.

943
01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:11.880
Or does when does it happen?

944
01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:14.699
Yeah, I'd say it must happen before he leaves Gallifroy.

945
01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:20.880
Yeah, I think it has to happen before he leaves Galafre because he hasn't been he's not in contact with the Time Lords until War Games.

946
01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:22.800
Because in their very next story.

947
01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:26.940
He's met the Draconians before and helped them with the situation.

948
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:34.800
But again, I also feel like that is also set way back. they don't recognise his countenance.

949
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:42.780
That story about the Medusoids and stuff in frontier in space too, where he's like an emissary on his way to a some kind of conference.

950
01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:43.980
That must be that as well.

951
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:51.780
The issue is that the time lords change every time they're introduced, like the conception of what they are like changes all the time.

952
01:05:51.840 --> 01:06:03.900
And so it sounds like they don't interfere in the sense that, you know, what the doctor does, like, turn up. somewhere and change things, but they have some kind of political presence.

953
01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:11.940
You know, like in um, the 2 doctors where the time lords and the ninth zone governments or whatever the hell it is.

954
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:12.960
Do you know what I mean?

955
01:06:13.019 --> 01:06:17.099
They're known and you know, there's some kind of negotiations and stuff going on.

956
01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:32.639
So I'm imagining that's the conception of the time lords there, but it is slightly more boring a conception than the one we had even the previous story and certainly vastly vastly more boring than the conception that we had in the war games where they were huge, terrifying, sort of omnipotent entities.

957
01:06:32.699 --> 01:06:43.440
Yeah, I quite like the idea that some of these things, such as going to the peace conference with the Medusoids, happened during season 6B. No, there's no season 6B. No, there isn't.

958
01:06:43.500 --> 01:06:46.920
But it's borne out by the comics of the time with the scarecrows.

959
01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:47.940
Nope, crazy.

960
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:50.880
No, there's no John and Gillian either, all right.

961
01:06:50.940 --> 01:06:56.039
The other thing is this, okay, so the doctor knows that the SS Denise disappeared.

962
01:06:56.099 --> 01:07:00.539
The end of the story, the SNS Bernice has returned, right?

963
01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:02.219
And they go to the next day.

964
01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:05.519
But the doctor still remembers back at the beginning that it disappeared.

965
01:07:05.579 --> 01:07:08.519
Therefore, the reason why it just it still disappeared.

966
01:07:08.579 --> 01:07:10.619
Everybody's still never, they never made it to Bombay.

967
01:07:10.619 --> 01:07:12.659
And, no, they made it to Bombay.

968
01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:15.840
No, they didn't because at the beginning of the story, he remembers it disappearing.

969
01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.599
And therefore, the only thing that's changed is the reason.

970
01:07:18.659 --> 01:07:20.340
No, time can be rewritten.

971
01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:22.260
Okay, this is what does my heating.

972
01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:26.039
Back to day of the Darling. back in the day of the Daleks, right?

973
01:07:26.099 --> 01:07:35.400
They come back in time to destroy this man who started World War whatever, but then they realised that he's not part of it and he doesn't die.

974
01:07:35.519 --> 01:07:37.980
Therefore, in the future, that future never happened.

975
01:07:38.039 --> 01:07:39.179
Therefore, they should never come back.

976
01:07:39.179 --> 01:07:40.500
So day of the Delix never appeared.

977
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:48.780
Ah, but in the case of the SS Bernice, the doctor and Joe don't destroy the miniscope and send everyone back because the SS Bernice disappeared.

978
01:07:48.840 --> 01:07:55.679
If they were investigating the disappearance of the SS Bernice, and that was their motivation, that would create a paradox.

979
01:07:55.739 --> 01:07:57.960
But because it's a side effect, it doesn't create a paradox.

980
01:07:58.019 --> 01:08:01.800
I'm not saying it's a paradox, but I'm still saying the SS Bernice never gets to its destination.

981
01:08:01.860 --> 01:08:02.699
No, no, doctor.

982
01:08:03.179 --> 01:08:09.119
No, because the doctor does remember that it disappeared and that's part of his dialogue, right?

983
01:08:09.179 --> 01:08:11.280
Doesn't he say he changes it or something?

984
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:13.619
Does he say something in the dialogue?

985
01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:15.420
They don't mention it one way or the other.

986
01:08:15.539 --> 01:08:21.899
I mean, she marries Lieutenant Andrews and she goes to India and patronises some Indian people.

987
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:26.579
This is one of my internal workings of my head just going, you know, that's really nasty.

988
01:08:26.699 --> 01:08:28.979
I would just try not to think about it too much.

989
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:33.899
That's why that's why I don't think about it for Day of the Darks, and that's why I'm trying not to think about it for this.

990
01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:38.460
You know what, it's entirely possible. that it does sink.

991
01:08:38.699 --> 01:08:41.100
No, I won't have it.

992
01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:48.420
Yeah, like, you know, the R101 had to crash and Charlie had to be dealt with and et cetera, et cetera.

993
01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:49.260
No, none of that's real.

994
01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:51.000
Well, look, I'm really, really pleased.

995
01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:52.439
I love you, India.

996
01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:54.479
We do love India.

997
01:08:54.539 --> 01:08:55.260
She is fabulous.

998
01:08:55.319 --> 01:08:56.520
I don't know who she is.

999
01:08:56.579 --> 01:08:57.779
No, no, I do.

1000
01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:07.500
I'm really, really pleased that I had the opportunity to sit down and really watch this properly again, and, you know, now I'd easily give it 8.5 attitude.

1001
01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:09.300
I'm not going Doctor Who.

1002
01:09:09.359 --> 01:09:15.720
But what I'm saying is that it's a really, really good story and its reputation is well deserved.

1003
01:09:15.779 --> 01:09:24.180
It also is, well, actually one of only 2 stories in the entire poetry era, that all the episodes, 9000000 viewers or more.

1004
01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:25.380
Right.

1005
01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:27.539
Even the 3 doctors doesn't get that.

1006
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:30.300
Episode 3 drops below 9 million.

1007
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:33.119
It's quality and the audience recognises it.

1008
01:09:33.180 --> 01:09:41.399
And I do think it's a great continuation of the 10th anniversary being a show that references monsters and references the fact that it's Doctor Who.

1009
01:09:41.460 --> 01:09:50.399
It gives us another doctor and companion character, and it's the 1st proper adventure out into space where the doctor's not being manipulated by the Time Lords anymore.

1010
01:09:50.460 --> 01:09:54.539
They mentioned they mentioned the Ogrens and the Daleks as well in their dialogue too.

1011
01:09:54.600 --> 01:09:56.399
You see an Ogron, I think, on the screen.

1012
01:09:56.460 --> 01:09:57.060
Yeah, you do.

1013
01:09:57.180 --> 01:09:57.720
Oh, okay.

1014
01:09:57.779 --> 01:09:59.220
Yeah, they've got no gron in there.

1015
01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:08.699
So yeah, they're foreshadowing the Daleks as well, who may or may not turn up. as we head even further out to find a frontier in space.

1016
01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:32.460
So, this is my one, and I think it's a fabulous remake of the space pirates, actually.

1017
01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:34.739
I was pretty excited.

1018
01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:38.220
Well, it couldn't be a worse remake of the Space Pirates, could it?

1019
01:10:38.279 --> 01:10:46.680
Listener, if we're going to do the space pirates again, I'm going to go home and given that I am home, if you mention the space pirates again, I'm going to kick you out.

1020
01:10:46.739 --> 01:10:47.579
Go on.

1021
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:50.699
Actually, I actually remember the space pirates very fondly.

1022
01:10:50.760 --> 01:10:56.159
I think we are very critical on the ground that it's pretty terrible, but I do have fond memories of it.

1023
01:10:56.220 --> 01:11:03.539
In particular, all that sort of space model work and all of the, you know, people in astronaut costumes on Kirby Wise and all of that.

1024
01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:04.619
We do get a lot of that.

1025
01:11:04.680 --> 01:11:07.800
And it's been, you know, space opera.

1026
01:11:07.859 --> 01:11:16.979
I mean, I guess if you watch Doctor Who in the 1970s, you think it's always sort of ray guns and spaceships, but it wasn't much that at all during its 1st 10 years.

1027
01:11:16.979 --> 01:11:26.100
And I think if we're not allowed to mention the space pirates, I guess the best previous analogue is the Dalek master plan.

1028
01:11:26.340 --> 01:11:28.380
I've forgotten how to say that.

1029
01:11:28.439 --> 01:11:30.180
Is it Dalek or Dale X master plan?

1030
01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:31.680
The Dalex masterplan.

1031
01:11:31.739 --> 01:11:32.939
Oh, it's Daleks, right?

1032
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:33.600
Yes, plural.

1033
01:11:33.659 --> 01:11:34.380
It's genitive.

1034
01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:44.880
So the idea is that everyone remembers the Dalek's master plan, sort of fondly it's a big 12 part epic, they look into the idea of doing it again, apparently.

1035
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:46.199
Yes, yeah.

1036
01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:48.840
And well, that was part of the 10th anniversary.

1037
01:11:48.899 --> 01:11:51.720
Again, it was, well, we're going to have a dialect story anyway.

1038
01:11:51.779 --> 01:11:53.279
Terry Nation's going to have to write it.

1039
01:11:53.340 --> 01:11:59.039
Oh, Terry Nation once wrote, sorry, wrote inverted commas, a 12 part dalek story.

1040
01:11:59.100 --> 01:12:00.060
Let's do that again.

1041
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:02.399
And so they go to Dougie Campfield, apparently.

1042
01:12:02.460 --> 01:12:04.920
And this is both in about time and in Xander.

1043
01:12:04.979 --> 01:12:07.920
They go to Dougie Canfield and say, you know, how's that going to work?

1044
01:12:07.979 --> 01:12:09.239
And he says, don't do it.

1045
01:12:09.300 --> 01:12:10.319
It's too long.

1046
01:12:10.439 --> 01:12:19.380
And so what they decide to do instead is this sort of 2 incredibly tenuously linked 6 parters.

1047
01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:34.979
So frontier in space, which we're talking about now, and then after an unexpected and completely inexplicable cliffhanger, which we'll come back to. will get Planet of the Daleks, which we'll talk about next episode.

1048
01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:38.880
So Terry Nation also just contractually.

1049
01:12:38.939 --> 01:12:41.819
He got the right for 1st refusal, doesn't he?

1050
01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:42.840
with document stories.

1051
01:12:42.899 --> 01:12:48.840
Yes, after Day of the Daleks, when they didn't realise that the Dalek copyright rested with Terry Nation.

1052
01:12:48.899 --> 01:12:55.680
Terry Nation said, oh, you know, now that you know, I'm quite happy for you to go ahead with this story, but you should ask me in future.

1053
01:12:55.739 --> 01:13:02.579
I'm not sure if it was a written agreement or a gentleman's agreement, but it certainly stayed in force for the next, really the next 6 years.

1054
01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:05.939
Yeah, 1979 is his last dialect story.

1055
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:16.979
And actually, in fact, I think in the 80s, he still had 1st refusal, but by that time he was working in America, by the time of Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy, certainly, he was script editing on MacGyver. crazy.

1056
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:18.000
Yeah indeed.

1057
01:13:18.060 --> 01:13:18.420
Yeah.

1058
01:13:18.479 --> 01:13:19.260
So Nathan.

1059
01:13:19.439 --> 01:13:21.659
So what have you discovered?

1060
01:13:21.720 --> 01:13:24.539
Well, look, I'm not entirely sure.

1061
01:13:24.600 --> 01:13:26.939
I'm a bit ambivalent about it.

1062
01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:27.720
Okay.

1063
01:13:27.779 --> 01:13:33.000
So I don't think that this really works as a story in one way.

1064
01:13:33.060 --> 01:13:34.619
It's really very linear.

1065
01:13:34.680 --> 01:13:35.460
Do you know what I mean?

1066
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:43.859
And people have observed over and over again that it's just the doctor and Joe being shoved into a series of prison cells and sort of dragged around the galaxy.

1067
01:13:44.279 --> 01:13:52.020
So there's a way in which it's just sort of 5 episodes of stuff happening while we faff around waiting for the Daleks to show up.

1068
01:13:52.079 --> 01:13:55.619
But then in other ways, I think it works really tremendously well.

1069
01:13:55.680 --> 01:13:58.380
And I think a lot of the incidents that happen are really good.

1070
01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:01.199
There's some great characters and great locations.

1071
01:14:01.260 --> 01:14:08.699
It's got a bit of a scale to it, and it starts off really, really small and turns into, you know, the brink of an intergalactic war.

1072
01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:12.720
And fairly organically over the, over the uh, 6 episodes.

1073
01:14:12.779 --> 01:14:24.060
So we arrive as usual in a cupboard, um, uh, and we do that, of course, of course, in the mutants and in, well, carnival of monsters, frankly.

1074
01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:26.220
So we're constantly turning up and cupboard.

1075
01:14:26.279 --> 01:14:26.819
So we do that again.

1076
01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.119
And in this cupboard, we're storing grain.

1077
01:14:30.180 --> 01:14:32.760
It's not grain that would upset the band rules.

1078
01:14:32.819 --> 01:14:33.659
It's flour.

1079
01:14:33.720 --> 01:14:37.619
So it's a big it's a big hoo-ha over someone stealing flour.

1080
01:14:37.680 --> 01:14:39.659
And we're in the year 2540.

1081
01:14:39.960 --> 01:14:47.039
So we're 80 years after colony in space and we're, what, 500 years or so before the mutants?

1082
01:14:47.100 --> 01:14:47.819
Yes.

1083
01:14:47.819 --> 01:14:52.439
So it's the Earth Empire at its height and we get a little bit of a history lesson from Pertwee.

1084
01:14:52.500 --> 01:14:56.819
So it's the height of the sort of very 1st Earth Empire.

1085
01:14:56.880 --> 01:15:05.039
And our author is our resident, communist, lizard sympathiser, Malcolm Hulk.

1086
01:15:05.100 --> 01:15:06.300
Yes, hooray.

1087
01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:07.020
He's back again.

1088
01:15:07.140 --> 01:15:13.380
And that, along with that comes the wonderful characterisation he always offers.

1089
01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:17.279
I always keep the cast lists for whatever stories we're discussing in front of us.

1090
01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:22.739
And if we look at Carnival of Monsters, which we were just discussing, It's about 10 speaking parts.

1091
01:15:23.100 --> 01:15:30.479
Looking down the castle list of frontier in space, I think there's at least 30 actors here with speaking parts and actual dialogue.

1092
01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:32.880
Because it goes from place to place, doesn't it?

1093
01:15:32.939 --> 01:15:34.140
And so we get different people.

1094
01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:40.140
So in the 1st two, I guess it's the 1st episode is just the 2 guys flying the cargo ship.

1095
01:15:40.199 --> 01:15:42.359
You know, like it's all very sort of small scale.

1096
01:15:42.420 --> 01:15:45.840
There's a bit of a sort of Star Trek vibe to it. they're in hyperspace, aren't they?

1097
01:15:45.899 --> 01:15:56.340
When they encounter the TARDIS, and you can see that the production crew by now has seen Star Trek. and so they sort of Star Trek, absolutely. sort of elements to it.

1098
01:15:56.460 --> 01:16:03.899
And then we're moving back to Earth with the Earth president and General Williams and the Draconian Prince.

1099
01:16:03.960 --> 01:16:05.159
He's great.

1100
01:16:05.220 --> 01:16:06.359
Isn't this great?

1101
01:16:06.420 --> 01:16:10.859
And this is the 1st time that we've seen Earth in the Pearl era as well.

1102
01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:15.539
Ah, because we've always been off world, like we're on solos when we were on Xaria.

1103
01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:16.260
So this is Earth.

1104
01:16:16.319 --> 01:16:21.359
Yeah, this is the 1st time we've been to the future of Earth since the Seeds of Death in 1969.

1105
01:16:21.539 --> 01:16:23.399
I love the future of Earth.

1106
01:16:23.460 --> 01:16:24.180
We have a president.

1107
01:16:24.239 --> 01:16:25.319
She's fabulous.

1108
01:16:25.380 --> 01:16:26.579
She is great.

1109
01:16:26.640 --> 01:16:31.380
Yeah, she's got her secretary and then isn't there some other woman doing a makeup?

1110
01:16:31.439 --> 01:16:32.819
Sheila. massages are.

1111
01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:35.159
She has lovely massage from Sheila at some point.

1112
01:16:35.220 --> 01:16:41.699
She's got like an orange frock and then like matching orange lipstick and a sort of fabulous South African accent.

1113
01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:47.939
And, you know, then there's General Williams, who's sort of very saturnine, has a big sort of collar and a sort of spock hair cart.

1114
01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:49.560
And then there's the prints.

1115
01:16:49.619 --> 01:16:56.939
This is, I think, hitherto unscaled heights for Lizard Man in Doctor Who, because he's a real character.

1116
01:16:57.000 --> 01:16:59.520
And we talked in the Silurians.

1117
01:16:59.579 --> 01:17:05.640
I thought that the Silurians were undermined by the fact that they were just sort of rubberheads or voiced by Peter Halliday.

1118
01:17:05.699 --> 01:17:06.420
Do you know what I mean?

1119
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:09.960
Whereas here you've got this prince guy.

1120
01:17:10.020 --> 01:17:14.579
Now he's never been Doctor Who before or since, but he has great teeth.

1121
01:17:14.939 --> 01:17:16.380
I think he'd be handsome.

1122
01:17:16.439 --> 01:17:20.340
I can't tell exactly, but so...

1123
01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:25.319
All of the costume and all the makeup, the one thing that you have noticed is...

1124
01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:26.819
You can see his teeth.

1125
01:17:26.819 --> 01:17:43.199
Because they've, for the 1st time, they've hit upon this genius idea and they'll, it'll become standard where you let the actor's eyes and mouth be visible through holes in the rubber mask and you make up the eyes and mouth to kind of match the rubber mask.

1126
01:17:43.260 --> 01:17:46.079
Now, they never quite manage that, the colours sort of slightly different.

1127
01:17:46.140 --> 01:17:50.220
And poor old John Woodnuts, who is the emperor.

1128
01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:51.539
He has previously been...

1129
01:17:51.539 --> 01:17:53.399
Hibbert.

1130
01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:55.680
Yes, he's Hibbot.

1131
01:17:55.739 --> 01:17:57.720
Channing's thrall in the orders.

1132
01:17:57.779 --> 01:18:11.939
Yeah, yeah, in Spearhead from Space, and he'll, he'll later turn up, obviously, as Broton, and, um, and, uh, um, and... and the Duke, the Duke of whatever, for Gil.

1133
01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:12.600
Yeah.

1134
01:18:12.659 --> 01:18:14.460
Yeah, it says on. right.

1135
01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:16.739
With a press on beard in that terrible story.

1136
01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:22.079
And he's got a particularly bad upper lip, doesn't he, poor old emperor?

1137
01:18:22.199 --> 01:18:31.920
You know, they don't get it completely right with the draconians makeup, but there's a reason that poetry says that they're a beautiful piece of work and I think that his favourite.

1138
01:18:31.979 --> 01:18:32.939
Yes, yes.

1139
01:18:33.000 --> 01:18:44.699
He does say they're his favourite because you can, because per we, as we've discussed before, he was much better when the ideas behind his script were grounded in reality.

1140
01:18:44.819 --> 01:18:59.699
Now, the thing is, you might think this is a strange story to refer as being grounded in reality, but if you take away, if you take away the science fiction elements such as aliens and spaceship, what you've basically got is a story about diplomacy and day taunt and brinkmanship.

1141
01:18:59.819 --> 01:19:01.680
Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

1142
01:19:01.739 --> 01:19:11.460
Yeah, this is a story that could very easily have been told without a science fiction setting, and I think those were the stories that Pert we liked, and also because he could interact with his fellow actors.

1143
01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:17.819
He gets a scene with the Draconian prince, where the Draconian prince is trying to interrogate him for information he doesn't have.

1144
01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:28.739
And again, it shows how far pert we's evolved because instead of being all blustering, how dare you, how dare you imprison me like this, he's very gentlemanly and just sort of sighs and says, look, I'm not a spy for anyone.

1145
01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:32.220
I don't know anything, but thank you very much.

1146
01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:33.479
This is a very comfortable chair.

1147
01:19:33.539 --> 01:19:34.800
Could you undo my handcuffs, please?

1148
01:19:34.859 --> 01:19:39.180
He is very respectful, respectful throughout this entire story.

1149
01:19:39.239 --> 01:19:43.979
You know, the whole performance is very different from 2 seasons ago and it just would not have worked.

1150
01:19:44.039 --> 01:19:45.060
Yeah, he doesn't blust.

1151
01:19:45.119 --> 01:19:46.619
General Williams or anything.

1152
01:19:46.680 --> 01:19:48.300
Because he's got the keys to his car.

1153
01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:49.020
He get.'s happy.

1154
01:19:49.079 --> 01:19:50.220
It's really interesting.

1155
01:19:50.220 --> 01:19:51.180
He doesn't. lost it.

1156
01:19:51.479 --> 01:19:54.539
The Ogons come and take it in episode one.

1157
01:19:54.600 --> 01:19:56.939
I found it really interesting watching this story again.

1158
01:19:57.000 --> 01:20:00.479
The previous time I'd watched it. completely out of sequence.

1159
01:20:00.539 --> 01:20:02.760
And I try to watch it in one setting.

1160
01:20:02.819 --> 01:20:06.779
I didn't follow the pertree rule of like, you know, one episode within the 6th party.

1161
01:20:06.779 --> 01:20:13.500
Yeah, and and you spoke about earlier, you know, on the superficial level.

1162
01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:17.159
It's just, you know, capture escape, capture escape continually.

1163
01:20:17.220 --> 01:20:29.520
But it, you know, works on all these other levels. the diplomacy element, the frustration of, you know, not being able to communicate because of past histories and that sort of thing.

1164
01:20:29.579 --> 01:20:43.079
And I think the major strength in this story is all the scenes with Joe and the doctor, or Joe, the doctor, and the master, the regular crew in all of their situations throughout all the episodes.

1165
01:20:43.140 --> 01:20:56.819
And yes, the capture escape things good because then you get, you have to have the action at the end of the episode in the beginning of the certain sort of in the middle episode is there, is there either carted off to Earth or Dracurnia or to the moon or where to ever it is this week.

1166
01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:09.300
The scenes with Katie and John are just beautiful, but I have to say, it's the sequences with Roger and Katie in this story that just blow my mind.

1167
01:21:09.359 --> 01:21:14.760
And it's so good because this is the 1st time they've really had a lot of scenes together since her 1st story.

1168
01:21:14.819 --> 01:21:18.899
Like the 1st meeting, like when he comes to get her out of the cell.

1169
01:21:18.960 --> 01:21:20.939
Any for them, Miss Grant?

1170
01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:21.659
Yeah, yeah.

1171
01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:25.979
I found myself just writing down hilarious quotable quotes from the master.

1172
01:21:26.039 --> 01:21:33.779
My favourite thing is, Pertry's been sucked out the airlock much to our relief and he's floating about in space.

1173
01:21:33.779 --> 01:21:42.779
And Joe's doing this sort of long improvised speech about how he, you know, how he should be more careful and stuff and he's richer dying a bit. amazing.

1174
01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:44.100
It's wonderful.

1175
01:21:44.220 --> 01:21:50.819
And then Delcano comes in, he goes, thank you, Miss Grant. we'll let you know It's so funny.

1176
01:21:50.880 --> 01:21:53.159
And there's a sense, look.

1177
01:21:53.279 --> 01:22:04.380
You know, in in a previous Hulk story, in colony in space, the masters kind of wheeled on in episode 4 or something to kind of prop up something that's sagging a little bit.

1178
01:22:04.439 --> 01:22:07.260
And he was foreshadowed in episode one.

1179
01:22:07.319 --> 01:22:09.899
We knew he was turning up, but we'd kind of forgotten by then.

1180
01:22:09.960 --> 01:22:11.640
Here he's a complete surprise.

1181
01:22:11.699 --> 01:22:16.199
But unfortunately, he's been tamed a little bit by now.

1182
01:22:16.260 --> 01:22:27.119
Perhaps those scenes, I agree with you, the scenes between Manning and Delgado are such fun and so fantastic, but the master has been defanged a little bit by this point.

1183
01:22:27.180 --> 01:22:36.779
See, I don't think that's a huge problem here because his plan is so huge that he needs to be a bit more diplomatic and a bit calmer.

1184
01:22:36.840 --> 01:22:49.079
And unlike pretty much every other story where he's kind of expecting to run into the doctor, like all the earth-based stuff, he knows the doctor's going to turn up at some point, even colony in space.

1185
01:22:49.140 --> 01:22:52.079
He's not that surprised that the time lords have sent the doctor after him.

1186
01:22:52.140 --> 01:22:55.020
On this occasion, he's actually trying to do something by himself.

1187
01:22:55.079 --> 01:23:00.720
And I think he's genuinely amused that the doctor and Joe just happened to have turned up in the same time zone.

1188
01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:02.760
That scene though, where he picks her up.

1189
01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:16.619
Joe is just so wonderful and this is one of the 1st big scenes where we see her development as a character because there is just no fear in her at all that she is showing.

1190
01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:27.539
You know, I think it's under the surface and she knows that the master is dangerous, but she is just so annoyed and so fed up that she's just like, right, here is something from my world.

1191
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:32.460
You know, when a mass murdering psychopath, alien is from your world.

1192
01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:34.859
That's that's questionable enough.

1193
01:23:34.859 --> 01:23:36.300
But here is something from my world.

1194
01:23:36.359 --> 01:23:39.180
I'm gonna take out my frustration now on you, mate.

1195
01:23:39.300 --> 01:23:42.239
But she's not scared the 1st time she meets the master.

1196
01:23:42.300 --> 01:23:43.619
That's the wonderful thing about it.

1197
01:23:43.680 --> 01:23:44.520
You know what I mean?

1198
01:23:44.579 --> 01:23:46.380
Like the 1st time she meets him in tear of the autumn.

1199
01:23:46.439 --> 01:23:53.640
She knocks the crate over and stands up really guiltily and goes, oops, you know, and like, so she's never really phased by the master.

1200
01:23:53.699 --> 01:23:59.579
But by now he's he's sort of cartoonish and and we've probably just about had enough of him.

1201
01:23:59.640 --> 01:24:03.960
And so having him sort of order the Ogons around and stuff.

1202
01:24:04.020 --> 01:24:07.380
You know, it's all just a little bit silly.

1203
01:24:07.439 --> 01:24:08.579
I think he's just having fun.

1204
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.880
I think he's having fun and I love the Ogons.

1205
01:24:11.939 --> 01:24:12.720
I think they're so funny.

1206
01:24:12.779 --> 01:24:16.020
You know, I came into this going, oh, 6 more episodes of Roger.

1207
01:24:16.079 --> 01:24:18.899
And then it was like 5 more episodes of Roger.

1208
01:24:18.899 --> 01:24:21.960
And I was like, well, there's only 4 more episodes of Roger.

1209
01:24:22.020 --> 01:24:30.119
I actually had to take a break to deal with the fact that I didn't want to not see him on screen.

1210
01:24:31.680 --> 01:24:41.340
The last episode with him and Katie, where Joe, where she resists on 2 occasions, his attempts at hypnosis.

1211
01:24:41.399 --> 01:24:45.119
It's not quite that because she resists them in episode five.

1212
01:24:45.180 --> 01:24:52.619
Do you remember by going, he's hypnotising her and she does the nursery rhymes and she says it doesn't work on me anymore.

1213
01:24:52.680 --> 01:25:06.239
And then there's that brilliant cliffhanger to episode 5 where he holds up the hypno sound thing and says, it works directly on the fear centres deep in your mind and the camera pulls focus and that's the cliffhanger.

1214
01:25:06.300 --> 01:25:07.979
It's so effective and so wonderful.

1215
01:25:08.039 --> 01:25:12.239
And the 2 of them, when they're on the ogre on planet, are terrific together, aren't they?

1216
01:25:12.300 --> 01:25:17.279
Look, that was the joy for me in this story, their performances and his performance.

1217
01:25:17.340 --> 01:25:18.779
You know, that's what kept it going.

1218
01:25:18.899 --> 01:25:26.460
You know, the shots of John outside the spaceship in that spacesuit with the string cord line.

1219
01:25:26.579 --> 01:25:28.859
They're in hyperspace.

1220
01:25:28.920 --> 01:25:30.960
It's like, are you for real?

1221
01:25:31.020 --> 01:25:35.159
It is really, it's, they're not Kirby Wise is actually attached to the spaceship by a string.

1222
01:25:35.220 --> 01:25:37.020
It's a thing, it's space protocol.

1223
01:25:37.079 --> 01:25:37.500
Right.

1224
01:25:37.920 --> 01:25:39.600
And the space music goes with that?

1225
01:25:39.659 --> 01:25:41.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1226
01:25:41.399 --> 01:25:44.640
It's actually mandatory, so you know there's someone outside the spaceship.

1227
01:25:44.699 --> 01:25:49.739
It is a callback to the space pirates where they just do that over and over again, the same footage, you know.

1228
01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:52.680
Can I talk?

1229
01:25:52.680 --> 01:25:57.239
We need your costume and the costumes of the Earth guards.

1230
01:25:57.300 --> 01:26:04.199
They have these sort of like, it's like they're going to go out and do rollerblading or go, you know, before they're padding and on their hands and the arms and that.

1231
01:26:04.260 --> 01:26:08.279
It's a nomination for the Jenny Lairder world.

1232
01:26:08.340 --> 01:26:10.859
I actually really, really like that.

1233
01:26:10.920 --> 01:26:11.579
They're stupid.

1234
01:26:11.640 --> 01:26:16.260
Well, the thing is, the helmets seem to be based on wrestling head covers.

1235
01:26:16.380 --> 01:26:21.239
The idea being you wear one of those and no one can no one can accidentally grab your ear.

1236
01:26:21.300 --> 01:26:24.359
Oh, I had forgotten that you actually do wrestling.

1237
01:26:24.420 --> 01:26:26.520
This is why you are so enamoured of them.

1238
01:26:26.579 --> 01:26:28.020
Well, but what's happening?

1239
01:26:28.079 --> 01:26:35.159
Like, you're flying a spaceship through hyperspace and you've got to just keep your ears kind of... people grabbing your ears.

1240
01:26:35.220 --> 01:26:40.020
Most of the people who wear them are guards, and this is a world where we're having riots because of food shortages.

1241
01:26:40.079 --> 01:26:42.180
Oh, we should talk politics.

1242
01:26:42.300 --> 01:26:48.779
I do like the fact that they're involving the whole world and you see broadcasts on the screen and that sort of thing.

1243
01:26:48.840 --> 01:26:55.680
The leader of the opposition is sort of a southern American redneck who's yelling about going to war against foreigners and stuff.

1244
01:26:55.739 --> 01:26:58.079
Well, you know, they go up to the moon.

1245
01:26:58.079 --> 01:27:06.300
And it's great to see that you've got political prisoners that are women and not, it's not all, you know, Anglo-Saxon white.

1246
01:27:06.359 --> 01:27:07.500
Yeah, you know, like that too.

1247
01:27:07.560 --> 01:27:10.020
Patel, who's the young Indian guy.

1248
01:27:10.199 --> 01:27:23.279
And again, you know how we've said that Pertuis starts off seeming like a bit of a Tory, but pretty soon in his sympathising automatically with progressive causes, and he gives the peace party sign to Patel as he sort of walks off.

1249
01:27:23.279 --> 01:27:31.199
And he sort of instantly allies with them and Patel recognises him and Professor Dale as well, like he falls in with them straight away.

1250
01:27:31.260 --> 01:27:37.979
And it is the Hulk thing that we saw in colony in space where despite the fact that they have a fabulous president.

1251
01:27:38.039 --> 01:27:46.800
They have a totalitarian kind of government, you know, where political prisoners are shipped off to the moon without trial for the rest of their lives and that kind of thing.

1252
01:27:46.859 --> 01:27:49.380
So the government is still kind of scary.

1253
01:27:49.739 --> 01:27:54.479
It's great to see John also out of his doctor costume when he's up in the moon.

1254
01:27:54.539 --> 01:28:01.140
He has to, you know, change into a political prisoner robe, which I always like seeing the doctor, you know, not just in their costume.

1255
01:28:01.199 --> 01:28:07.920
Katie, of course, gets to change into that wonderful black sort of karate outfit.

1256
01:28:07.979 --> 01:28:10.079
And what does John say when she turns up?

1257
01:28:10.140 --> 01:28:11.819
Who are you fighting tonight?

1258
01:28:12.539 --> 01:28:14.640
Is that her best outfit?

1259
01:28:14.699 --> 01:28:15.659
I love it.

1260
01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:16.859
I love that costume.

1261
01:28:16.920 --> 01:28:18.300
It could well be my favourite.

1262
01:28:18.359 --> 01:28:24.840
I mean, hey, you know, when she was all dollied up back in Curse of Peloton, that's, you know, that frog's pretty good too.

1263
01:28:24.899 --> 01:28:31.560
And I like, and I like, you know, the 3 doctors won and I like, I like what she's wearing in the next story.

1264
01:28:31.619 --> 01:28:32.880
Yeah, yeah.

1265
01:28:33.060 --> 01:28:37.439
That's a really nice suit, but we're getting ahead of ourselves, of course.

1266
01:28:37.500 --> 01:28:39.060
Can we talk about the end?

1267
01:28:39.119 --> 01:28:41.460
Well, I want to talk about the Draconia Society.

1268
01:28:41.520 --> 01:28:47.939
Something that slightly irritated me was that we're in the Draconian Great Hall or whatever.

1269
01:28:48.000 --> 01:29:01.500
And of course, females are not permitted to speak, and I just wanted to throw something at the television at that and I thought, oh, look, we've seen this before in curse of peladin.

1270
01:29:01.560 --> 01:29:06.960
The positive of it is that Joe comes up with a lot of good observations, which makes the men think.

1271
01:29:07.020 --> 01:29:08.100
So that's a really good positive.

1272
01:29:08.159 --> 01:29:24.840
I guess you don't see any women draconians, but I'm thinking that to do the costumes for those, you might be looking at, like, doing something like Lurstrom Bay tour from Star Trek, the Next Generation, or Ingrid Pitt, and her sort of bosom-y bosom is from the previous season.

1273
01:29:24.899 --> 01:29:26.520
And I don't think they could possibly afford that.

1274
01:29:26.579 --> 01:29:38.100
And of course, remember all the fasts, cold blood and the hungry earth, when you had Niamh McIntosh play Silurians for the 1st time, and what was one of the main topics of discussion on Doctor Who Message boards?

1275
01:29:38.159 --> 01:29:40.500
She is a lizard, why does she have breasts?

1276
01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:43.020
Because guess what?

1277
01:29:43.079 --> 01:29:44.279
There's an actress in there.

1278
01:29:44.340 --> 01:29:45.840
It's Nieve.

1279
01:29:45.899 --> 01:29:46.439
She a mammal.

1280
01:29:46.560 --> 01:29:51.899
I'd just like to talk about the influence this story has had moving forward.

1281
01:29:51.960 --> 01:30:10.619
This is possibly Malcolm Hawke's best political story because he creates a whole political system and he creates a whole political climate that's recognisable as based in our world and the ideas of Dayton diplomacy, but manages to be a big space opera as well.

1282
01:30:10.680 --> 01:30:20.579
Moving forward into the um, into the early 90s, but even before that, Joe Michael Strazinsky, uh, developed a series called Babylon 5.

1283
01:30:20.819 --> 01:30:23.159
I've never heard of it I refuse to watch it.

1284
01:30:23.279 --> 01:30:26.399
Before it came to air on television.

1285
01:30:26.460 --> 01:30:34.859
He'd spent about 15 years developing it And in his commentaries on the DVDs, he does talk about the influences on his series.

1286
01:30:35.039 --> 01:30:39.359
And one of the influences it particularly mentions is Doctor Who.

1287
01:30:39.420 --> 01:30:49.319
And he discusses, I was strongly influenced by a particular story for the background between 2 of the races in Babylon 5.

1288
01:30:49.500 --> 01:30:50.640
Babylon 5 starts off.

1289
01:30:50.699 --> 01:30:58.199
There are 5 major races and a lot of minor races, and they are working together towards a peace and a sort of federation, if you like.

1290
01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:07.560
The 2 major races who have bankrolled this space station as a negotiation area, the humans and the Minbari, have just come out of a long interstellar war.

1291
01:31:07.859 --> 01:31:10.619
Which was started because.

1292
01:31:10.619 --> 01:31:24.359
The Minbari tradition was to arrive at negotiations with gun ports open and weapons at the Ready as a show of strength at saying we have an open hand, which is exactly how the war starts here.

1293
01:31:24.420 --> 01:31:26.340
It's not a great tradition, is it?

1294
01:31:26.399 --> 01:31:29.699
It is a tradition that is fairly open to kind of misinterpretation.

1295
01:31:29.819 --> 01:31:44.699
And in this, like episode five, suddenly the prince and the general have this conversation about, you know, 20 years ago, why did you turn up with, you know, your gunship and, you know, they finally have a conversation about why everything is happening and why they mistrust each other.

1296
01:31:44.760 --> 01:31:48.779
You know, if they'd had that conversation 20 years ago, well we wouldn't be having this story now, would we?

1297
01:31:48.840 --> 01:31:56.699
Yeah, I think I actually think that that does hit upon a floor in the story, which is that we all know in episode one what's going on.

1298
01:31:56.760 --> 01:32:08.699
The 2 parties are accusing each other of the same thing, but neither of them kind of twigs or anything, and it takes us to episode 5 before everyone is sort of on the same page as us.

1299
01:32:08.819 --> 01:32:20.039
Well, I think it's because going back to that, going back to the catalyst for the war, both sides think the other side is lying right from the start, right from their 1st negotiation with each other.

1300
01:32:20.100 --> 01:32:22.199
So why shouldn't they think they're lying now?

1301
01:32:22.260 --> 01:32:26.399
It's really a great comment on racism and prejudice from Malcolm Hawk?

1302
01:32:26.460 --> 01:32:29.039
And he does it without a lot of soap boxing?

1303
01:32:29.100 --> 01:32:35.880
By this point in Doctor Who, I think he is the most thoughtful writer Doctor Who has, and he really thinks about what he's putting into his stories.

1304
01:32:35.939 --> 01:32:57.300
I think it's great that a story he wrote in 1973, 20 years later, influences the science fiction series, which Major Barrett Roddenbury, then widow of Gene Roddenbury, creator of Star Trek, with DS9 and Voyager on the air as well, said that Babylon 5 is the most intelligent science fiction series on television.

1305
01:32:57.359 --> 01:33:01.500
No, the woman, obviously, has got...

1306
01:33:01.560 --> 01:33:06.840
She was losing it because I would say with Deep Space 9 and, you know, I'm a Deep Space 9 fan.

1307
01:33:06.899 --> 01:33:08.279
So, you know, we go with that.

1308
01:33:08.340 --> 01:33:13.319
I wanna talk about General Williams. how dishy he is.

1309
01:33:13.380 --> 01:33:16.020
You've taken the word side, Adam.

1310
01:33:16.079 --> 01:33:19.619
Look, they've had they've tried it with Bill Filer.

1311
01:33:19.680 --> 01:33:21.300
They tried it with Captain Yates.

1312
01:33:21.359 --> 01:33:22.800
They tried it with Hippias.

1313
01:33:22.859 --> 01:33:24.779
General Williams, it's getting better.

1314
01:33:24.840 --> 01:33:25.979
That's the same people.

1315
01:33:26.039 --> 01:33:32.579
When we get to the end of the Pertuy era, they really score 2 episodes from the end and I'm not saying anything more.

1316
01:33:33.180 --> 01:33:38.039
There's a fairly handsome kind of cargo captain guy in the 1st episode.

1317
01:33:38.100 --> 01:33:40.680
Yeah, the one who looks like George Layton.

1318
01:33:40.739 --> 01:33:43.739
I don't know who that is Never mind.

1319
01:33:43.800 --> 01:33:58.500
And of course, Frontier in Space is one of 2 stories, which was accidentally shipped to Australia with the attempted new version of the theme, known as the Delaware theme, the sort of...

1320
01:33:58.619 --> 01:33:59.880
I actually can't remember it.

1321
01:33:59.939 --> 01:34:01.859
And none of my copies have it.

1322
01:34:01.920 --> 01:34:04.199
I think it's an optional extra on the DVD.

1323
01:34:04.260 --> 01:34:06.000
It's an optional extra on the DVD.

1324
01:34:06.060 --> 01:34:09.720
It was included on the VHS release of Carnival of Monsters.

1325
01:34:09.779 --> 01:34:19.319
Australia got the original extended edit of episode two, which has about 5 minutes more footage, so it's roughly a 30 minute episode.

1326
01:34:19.380 --> 01:34:22.319
But it is a special feature on the DVD.

1327
01:34:22.380 --> 01:34:27.720
It was the 1st attempt really to completely redo the thing.

1328
01:34:27.779 --> 01:34:36.840
Until now the theme had been added to, but it was still the same basic track as had been created for Hartnell at the very start.

1329
01:34:36.899 --> 01:34:38.939
So this was 10th anniversary.

1330
01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:40.079
Let's do a new version of the theme.

1331
01:34:40.140 --> 01:34:43.560
We've got this great new synthesiser that creates strange and wonderful sounds.

1332
01:34:43.619 --> 01:34:44.039
Well use that.

1333
01:34:44.100 --> 01:34:46.260
Oh, it can only do one track at a time.

1334
01:34:46.319 --> 01:34:49.439
So to do a multi-tracked version.

1335
01:34:49.500 --> 01:34:58.380
They did a stereo version of this theme, even though, you know, I don't think any television was being broadcast in stereo at the time in the UK, possibly BBC 2.

1336
01:34:58.560 --> 01:35:00.960
No, come on, not in 1973.

1337
01:35:01.140 --> 01:35:01.739
No.

1338
01:35:01.800 --> 01:35:07.500
I think stereo even comes to actual Doctor Who until McCoy or something.

1339
01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:10.800
Yeah, season 25 is the 1st Doctor Who in stereo.

1340
01:35:10.859 --> 01:35:13.140
I just think it's it's just awful.

1341
01:35:13.199 --> 01:35:15.960
And, you know, Barry went with it.

1342
01:35:16.020 --> 01:35:17.100
You know, he wanted it.

1343
01:35:17.159 --> 01:35:21.000
And it was other people who said, no, this cannot be.

1344
01:35:21.060 --> 01:35:22.199
Thank goodness.

1345
01:35:22.260 --> 01:35:24.119
Oh, I have to listen to it again.

1346
01:35:24.239 --> 01:35:25.800
When we stop recording, I'm going to listen.

1347
01:35:25.859 --> 01:35:30.359
It makes Dominic Glynn's version of 1986 look like a Grammy Award winner.

1348
01:35:30.420 --> 01:35:31.800
I can watch Dominic wins.

1349
01:35:31.859 --> 01:35:35.279
I do, but you know where I'm going with this.

1350
01:35:35.340 --> 01:35:37.979
I'm nominating it for Johnny Laird.

1351
01:35:38.039 --> 01:35:39.239
What a nomination.

1352
01:35:39.359 --> 01:35:43.439
You're nominating every creative choice this season for a Jenny Land Award.

1353
01:35:43.500 --> 01:35:45.420
It's a really good season, Todd.

1354
01:35:45.479 --> 01:35:53.039
I think it is a very enjoyable fun season. puzzling creative choices.

1355
01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:56.460
But there are puzzling creative choices all the way through, the 1970s.

1356
01:35:56.520 --> 01:35:58.020
There's a few other things in this story.

1357
01:35:58.079 --> 01:36:01.260
Joe mentions women's lib.

1358
01:36:01.319 --> 01:36:04.079
I think it's the 1st time she actually mentions that in episode five.

1359
01:36:04.140 --> 01:36:07.859
Well, she says, haven't they heard of women's leave in the Draconian...

1360
01:36:07.979 --> 01:36:09.060
Yeah, it's interesting.

1361
01:36:09.119 --> 01:36:14.100
I mean, obviously women's be with in the Time Monster doesn't...

1362
01:36:14.159 --> 01:36:16.680
Yeah, yeah, that it gets named...

1363
01:36:16.739 --> 01:36:25.140
So, you know, there's certainly this thought process going on with Terence and Barry and, of course, influence, you know, next year.

1364
01:36:25.199 --> 01:36:29.880
Stephen Thorne and Michael Kilgara are both Ogrons in this story?

1365
01:36:29.939 --> 01:36:30.239
Yes.

1366
01:36:30.300 --> 01:36:31.020
Yes, yeah.

1367
01:36:31.079 --> 01:36:33.659
Do they go, we are following them.

1368
01:36:33.779 --> 01:36:35.159
We are on this course.

1369
01:36:35.220 --> 01:36:43.500
Which one of the one is the, which one of them is the Ogron in the worst cliffhanger in the entire Purtle year?

1370
01:36:43.560 --> 01:36:45.600
I think that's Michael Kilgariff.

1371
01:36:45.659 --> 01:36:53.399
So he's sitting in a chair, a cliffhanger, cut two, Ogron sitting in a chair watching the television, crash bang into the credits.

1372
01:36:53.460 --> 01:36:53.880
Yes.

1373
01:36:53.939 --> 01:36:56.100
My name is just before that because I remember thinking...

1374
01:36:56.100 --> 01:36:59.039
The master sets off a homing beacon so the Ogrons can follow him.

1375
01:36:59.159 --> 01:37:00.479
So I've got in my notes here.

1376
01:37:00.600 --> 01:37:02.039
So the Ogons are on the way.

1377
01:37:02.100 --> 01:37:03.119
Cliffhanger.

1378
01:37:03.180 --> 01:37:04.739
But I mean, it's so undramatic.

1379
01:37:04.800 --> 01:37:08.039
Cotton, I think, saying we're all done for is probably worse.

1380
01:37:08.039 --> 01:37:09.239
Yeah, yeah.

1381
01:37:09.300 --> 01:37:10.979
I mean, that one has bad acting.

1382
01:37:11.039 --> 01:37:12.119
This one doesn't even have acting.

1383
01:37:12.180 --> 01:37:13.680
No, it's just got sitting in a chair.

1384
01:37:13.800 --> 01:37:16.380
You know, I don't I don't think he even knew they were filming.

1385
01:37:17.279 --> 01:37:26.039
I get the impression that Michael could kill Garof did a fair amount of sitting in a chair if his appearance in Attack of the Sidemen is any indication.

1386
01:37:26.159 --> 01:37:33.300
But I do like at the end how that world is left and General Williams and the Prince have to go back and deal with everything.

1387
01:37:33.359 --> 01:37:34.739
It's open-ended.

1388
01:37:34.800 --> 01:37:36.119
That story continues.

1389
01:37:36.180 --> 01:37:39.960
And you don't actually see like a nice little bow tied up.

1390
01:37:40.020 --> 01:37:44.819
And that follows that sort of fairly open structure where it is just a bunch of things that have happened.

1391
01:37:44.880 --> 01:37:46.800
And so we do bow out before a resolution.

1392
01:37:46.859 --> 01:37:48.899
And we know that a resolution's set up.

1393
01:37:48.960 --> 01:37:49.800
We know that it's possible.

1394
01:37:49.859 --> 01:37:55.319
We know that the Prince and General Williams are going back to present evidence, God knows what evidence.

1395
01:37:55.380 --> 01:37:56.220
What are they taking anyway?

1396
01:37:56.279 --> 01:37:57.840
It doesn't matter. taking that creature.

1397
01:37:58.079 --> 01:37:59.760
The creature.

1398
01:37:59.760 --> 01:38:01.199
Scroto the magnificent.

1399
01:38:01.260 --> 01:38:02.699
It's called a scrotoid.

1400
01:38:03.359 --> 01:38:04.800
Really?

1401
01:38:04.800 --> 01:38:08.100
Yeah, that's the official sort of Linnaean classification of it.

1402
01:38:08.159 --> 01:38:14.039
And it's the thing that really ruins the whole ending of the entire story.

1403
01:38:14.100 --> 01:38:21.600
So in dialogue, I think it's a large and savage reptile is the dominant life form on this planet.

1404
01:38:21.659 --> 01:38:27.840
And Doctor Who, this is a Mac Hulk story, of course, it has large and savage reptiles in it.

1405
01:38:27.899 --> 01:38:38.760
And we can be in no doubt at this stage that the Doctor Who production team would be a wizard creating a large and savage reptile convincingly for the screen, wouldn't they?

1406
01:38:38.939 --> 01:38:40.560
That would be awesome.

1407
01:38:40.619 --> 01:38:41.520
Oh, yes.

1408
01:38:41.579 --> 01:38:44.819
Certainly next year, they do a bang.

1409
01:38:44.819 --> 01:38:46.140
Oh, magnificent.

1410
01:38:46.199 --> 01:38:51.119
But instead they had this sort of wobbling scrotoid slug thing.

1411
01:38:51.239 --> 01:38:54.180
And we 1st see we see Ogron worshipping it.

1412
01:38:54.779 --> 01:38:56.880
There's a painting on the wall.

1413
01:38:56.939 --> 01:39:01.020
And then it comes and wobbles on the top of a cliff.

1414
01:39:01.079 --> 01:39:03.779
I quite like that and they all go, oh, the creature and run away.

1415
01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:05.699
I was laughing my head off and said, oh, that's great.

1416
01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:07.140
This was used in that little bit.

1417
01:39:07.140 --> 01:39:08.520
It's the monster.

1418
01:39:08.579 --> 01:39:09.720
Oh, the monster, sorry.

1419
01:39:09.779 --> 01:39:14.760
But it's there for like the briefest number of seconds because the director really hates it.

1420
01:39:14.819 --> 01:39:15.359
Yeah.

1421
01:39:15.359 --> 01:39:22.739
And then when we go into the sort of bass, there's Joe and the doctor there, they talk a little bit about the painting.

1422
01:39:22.800 --> 01:39:26.699
And so you think, well, that's clearly setting it up for a big final appearance.

1423
01:39:26.760 --> 01:39:33.539
The big final appearance is the doctor turns on the hypno sound ray thing to scare the ogons off.

1424
01:39:33.600 --> 01:39:36.300
And the Ogons go, ooh, the monster.

1425
01:39:36.359 --> 01:39:40.680
And then there's this sudden inexplicable and you go, what the hell has happened?

1426
01:39:40.800 --> 01:39:45.899
Yeah, something sets off the master's blaster, which hits the doctor in the head and he's unconscious.

1427
01:39:45.960 --> 01:39:48.060
And then every everyone's gone in about 2 seconds.

1428
01:39:48.359 --> 01:39:55.979
It's very strange and it's clearly the director has just edited out, is he edited out the final appearance of the scroto?

1429
01:39:56.039 --> 01:39:57.180
No, he didn't actually film it.

1430
01:39:57.239 --> 01:40:03.359
I think he refused to and just did it as a shot of them running away from an unseen monster.

1431
01:40:03.420 --> 01:40:10.500
And I think Barry and Terence said, this is not dramatic enough to Cliffhanger into the Dalek story.

1432
01:40:10.560 --> 01:40:12.539
So they got David Maloney back.

1433
01:40:12.600 --> 01:40:15.600
Well, he's going forward because he's going to do the next...

1434
01:40:15.720 --> 01:40:23.880
When the story starts, they restaged that sequence so that because the doctor could stumble into the Tartar and send a message and collapse, which is then tagged onto the end.

1435
01:40:23.939 --> 01:40:27.539
But what the hell happens to the master?

1436
01:40:27.659 --> 01:40:29.220
Yes, yeah.

1437
01:40:29.279 --> 01:40:33.659
The novelisation does a much better job where, you know, the Ogons aren't there.

1438
01:40:33.720 --> 01:40:38.220
It doesn't have the attack of the scrotoid, the imagined attack of the scrotoid.

1439
01:40:38.279 --> 01:40:49.920
What it has is the master realises that General Williams and the prince had escaped and he just kind of says, well, I guess this plan may not work.

1440
01:40:49.979 --> 01:40:50.760
I've got what I want.

1441
01:40:50.819 --> 01:40:53.039
I can't remember what he wanted, but he's like, I've got what I want.

1442
01:40:53.100 --> 01:40:54.359
You know, I've created a bit of chaos.

1443
01:40:54.420 --> 01:40:56.159
I'm gonna go off and do my own thing now.

1444
01:40:56.220 --> 01:41:02.520
And he kind of lets the doctor and Joe go and it means that Roger Delgado's master.

1445
01:41:02.520 --> 01:41:07.439
And I think this is because the book was written after the fact of this very untimely death.

1446
01:41:07.500 --> 01:41:17.340
It gives the master an ending where he just sort of packs away his things and moves on to his next plan, you know, and it's a far more, it's a far more fitting end.

1447
01:41:17.399 --> 01:41:20.760
Yeah, of course, at the time they didn't know this would be the end of the master.

1448
01:41:20.819 --> 01:41:24.300
They were planning one more appearance for him, where they would have written out the character.

1449
01:41:24.359 --> 01:41:34.560
Yeah, it's just a shame that his final appearance is such a, you know, it starts off as a, oh, my dear doctor, I'm going to confront you scene and then just descends into madness.

1450
01:41:35.039 --> 01:41:42.899
He dies just after episode 5 of the green death airs. is when the accident happens.

1451
01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:47.340
So they would have just finished filming the time warrior, wouldn't they?

1452
01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:49.199
Because that was filmed at the end of this season.

1453
01:41:49.260 --> 01:41:49.739
Okay.

1454
01:41:49.739 --> 01:41:50.159
Yeah.

1455
01:41:50.220 --> 01:41:51.000
Yeah, yeah.

1456
01:41:51.060 --> 01:41:54.600
Yeah, it was it was between the production blocks.

1457
01:41:54.720 --> 01:41:57.840
So they had a plan to bring him back for the Pertui finale.

1458
01:41:57.899 --> 01:41:59.520
Did they know Pertwee was leaving already?

1459
01:41:59.579 --> 01:42:00.600
They didn't know Pertwe was leaving.

1460
01:42:00.659 --> 01:42:02.939
They had a plan to bring him back for the finale of the next season.

1461
01:42:03.000 --> 01:42:03.720
Right.

1462
01:42:03.720 --> 01:42:12.539
Pert, we had was considering leaving during production of The Time Warrior, but he didn't decide to until the Monster of Peladin.

1463
01:42:12.600 --> 01:42:14.460
Yeah, well, I'm not surprised.

1464
01:42:14.939 --> 01:42:19.800
So, you know, it is such, it is such a bizarre ending.

1465
01:42:19.859 --> 01:42:24.779
It's not just a shame because it's the last scene we get with Roger Delgado.

1466
01:42:24.840 --> 01:42:27.600
You know, why couldn't they have had the Daleks appear.

1467
01:42:27.659 --> 01:42:29.399
The Ogons are afraid of the Daleks.

1468
01:42:29.460 --> 01:42:30.779
They had the Daleks there.

1469
01:42:30.840 --> 01:42:32.220
Why not shoot it that way?

1470
01:42:32.279 --> 01:42:35.579
And it just leaves me wondering, how are we going to end our episode?

1471
01:42:42.119 --> 01:42:47.340
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd Beeley, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones.

1472
01:42:47.399 --> 01:42:50.159
This episode, Messi doesn't say very much.

1473
01:42:50.220 --> 01:42:52.020
That's recorded on the 3rd of April.

1474
01:42:52.079 --> 01:42:55.439
The next episode will be released on Sunday, April 26th.

1475
01:42:55.500 --> 01:42:58.859
When the doctor sees a purple horse with yellow spots.

1476
01:42:58.920 --> 01:43:00.180
It's a diplomatic conference.

1477
01:43:00.239 --> 01:43:02.819
When I see one, I'm wasting the court's time.

1478
01:43:06.359 --> 01:43:12.060
So the idea is that everyone remembers the 12 part Dalek mask.

1479
01:43:12.119 --> 01:43:12.659
Damn it.

1480
01:43:12.779 --> 01:43:16.680
Everyone remembers, it's just like Frogo all over again.