WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:10:17

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Hello, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only

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Doctor Who podcast who's actually asking you to poke us with a

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Stick and Make us Jump.

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Please.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm back wearing my specially constructed podcast mask, which

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protects my head from the slightly corrosive effects of doing

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these recordings.

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Or at least I hope it does.

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I thought you were looking a bit pale toddle.

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Well, that means that can mean only one thing.

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It's time to disappear down a black hole into a universe of

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antimatter.

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No, we're not heading to Parliament House.

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It's the 3 doctors.

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Now, um, this one was assigned to me, and, God, it's a cracker, you

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know, 10 years on television.

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There were very few British programs who could make a similar

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claim and no science fiction programs.

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You know, British science fiction programs at this stage would run

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for two, maybe 3 series.

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You had Quator Mass. you'd had out of the unknown, the anthology

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series.

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You had the Pathfinders series and Target Lunar, its predecessor.

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So it was really a huge celebration that this was happening.

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Can I spoil our fun for a second?

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Yes.

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Nine years and 2 months.

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The story aired until the 10th year.

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Well, that's the thing.

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Everyone sort of says 3 doctors is for 10th anniversary special

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but for the production team, the whole year was the anniversary

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year.

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It wasn't just one story.

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They considered the whole year to be a celebration of the last 10

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years of Doctor, and we'll look at that as we go through, as we go

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through the stories.

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It's also the 1st time, possibly that the idea for a story, the

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central concept has come from fan feedback.

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Really?

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Well, people said they wanted to see Pat and Billy again.

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Exactly, yeah.

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Barry Letts, who, sadly, is no longer with us. said in many

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interviews that fans would ask and other people at the BBC would

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ask, why don't you do a story with all 3 doctors?

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And initially he and Terence said, oh, no, you know, we want to, we

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want to go forward and we want to tell our own stories.

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And when they were planning the 10th season, they said, well, if

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we're not going to do it now, when are we going to do it?

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And that's what started the whole ball rolling.

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And as a story, it works surprisingly well, especially when you

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consider that the planning stages were just a mess.

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Is this because of Billy's health or what?

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It's partially because of that.

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It's also because Blessed.

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It's written by the Bristol boys.

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It actually seems like an incredibly bad choice, doesn't it?

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Like, why don't you give this to Bob Holmes?

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Because Baker and Martin have done such a kind of slipshod job of

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their previous couple of stories.

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But I actually found, as I watched it, that I appreciated that

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they were the ones who'd been given it because they're the kind of

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high concept writers.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And their initial pitch was even a greater hike concept.

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You know, the domain of OM, as the villain originally was, which

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is who, upside down and backwards.

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Did you know that?

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Well, I do now.

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They vetoed it.

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I think very little. said no, that's too knowing.

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Oh, goodness.

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But the domain of Om was essentially hell.

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It wasn't an antimatic universe with any kind of scientific

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basis.

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And the doctor, and the 2nd doctor, and the 1st doctor would go

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into Om's domain owns underworld to face him in a series of games

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and trials.

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Pretty much there.

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But 10 years later, who would come to write that in a Doctor Who

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story, but they're script editor Terrence Sticks in the 5

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doctors.

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He vetoed their original idea and then nicked it 10 years later.

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So you think he said I'm going to be around for 1983 and I want

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that one for them.

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More than 10 years later he went, oh, what a brilliant idea.

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Why has nobody thought of this before?

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Because as Terence has often said itself, all you need is a good

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idea.

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It doesn't have to be yours.

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But instead, we actually get a much better story and this feels

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like the 1st time that Barry and Terrence has sat down with the

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Bristol boys and said, no, really, you need to focus on this

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because this is certainly their most focussed story so far.

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Yeah, it is most disciplined.

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And because it has a fairly small number of guest characters.

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It doesn't suffer from the blinds of the other stories, which is

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these sort of loud, bombastic, overdrawn kind of stupid

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characters.

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Like, Omega needs to be big and he needs to be kind of a giant

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menace.

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And, you know, Tyler and Hollis and the time lords and things.

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They're the only other characters and they're fairly sort of low

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key, aren't they?

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They not.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it's it's another example of the musing stock characters like

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we discussed with the mutants last month.

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But in this case, that's a good thing because you've already got

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so many ideas in this story, you've got an ancient time lord who

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gave them the power of time travel.

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You've got the 3 doctors.

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So, for your supporting characters.

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You need to be able to understand who they are very quickly.

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So, you know, Tyler is a scientist, therefore, he wears brainy

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specs and tweed.

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Hollis runs bird sanctuary.

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He a man of the land, therefore, he's been an anorak with a

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shotgun.

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Do you think his name's John Hollis?

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And the reason that they give him such a giant hair is making fun

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of John Hollis from the Mutants last year.

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That is...

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That is...

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That's, that's a, that, that, that's an, that's an idea.

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That's the best fan theory I've ever heard.

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That beat season 6B, I think, hands down.

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Um, Yeah.

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Okay.

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So, Brendan, as part of the planning of this, was it always going

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to be designed to, as part of their grand plan to get the doctor

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finally to give him back his time travel and all that sort of

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thing?

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That was actually part of Barry Lett's stipulation because Barry

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always planned to get the doctor back into space and getting

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forgiven, but he didn't want to throw away the unit thing straight

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away.

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So that's why in season 8 we get one story off of in season nine

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we get 2 stories off Earth and a bit of travel in the Time Monster

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as well.

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And a unit free story on Earth in the middle.

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And a unit free story on Earth in the Middle.

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Yeah.

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Pretty much Barrylitz has been very clever here because he's

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weaning the audience off what they have become used to to get the

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show back to what it was in the 60s.

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Which it's very strange, but it's very well done.

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And Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

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I think sort of they really earn their keep with this story.

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Look, I mean, they'll go back to doing crappy stories in future.

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This isn't a giant, you know, character development for them

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really.

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I have to disagree because I feel their stories from here on in. do

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have a lot more narrative focus on a central idea.

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There are other ideas leading off from it.

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But this is where they kind of learn to write a proper Doctor Who

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story.

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And I really have a great deal of respect for them for the other

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issue, which Todd you alluded to earlier, which was, of course

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William Hartle's involvement.

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There are 2 conflicting stories as to how William Hartnell came to

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be involved.

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Barry Lett says he phoned Hartnell. and said, look, 10th

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anniversary is coming up.

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Do you want to be a part of it?

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And William said, wow, it's still running.

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Yeah, he wasn't aware it was still running. apparently.

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But he said, oh, that's wonderful.

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I didn't know.

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And the other version of the story is that Hartnell was in at the

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BBC looking for work, saw the Doctor Who production office and

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popped his head, popped his head round Terence Dix's door and said

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I didn't know this was still running.

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And Terence said, well, funny you should say that.

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We've been considering getting you back.

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I think the 1st story is more likely seeing as he was essentially

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housebound.

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Yes, I think so.

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And is the, do we still believe the story where Heather Hartner

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rings up and says, no, he's too sick.

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He can't really do it.

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Both Barry and Terence have said that.

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So I think I think that's I think that's a very strong

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possibility.

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Plus, as we saw from an adventure in space and time.

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Or adventure in space and time, time and space.

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Time and space time. of those.

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Time in Spain.

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We've done that joke.

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Over and over again.

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Over and over again.

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Anyway, as we saw in that docudrama, when Bill was having a

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problem with the show, it was actually Heather who went in to see

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Verity.

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Oh, okay, I'd forgotten that, actually.

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And that's when Verity says, well, actually, I'm leaving.

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Right, right.

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And um, yeah, so it, you know, it doesn't surprise me at all that

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his wife, as much as she knew he loved the show, would have been

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considering his best interests, even if he was incapable of

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considering them himself, because of course he had very severe

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arteriosclerosis affecting the memory and affecting the

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reasoning.

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It is, I mean, I don't want to sort of leap ahead too much, but

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watching him is not that fun an experience, I have to say.

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Like, I love Billy.

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Of course, I love Billy.

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I think he's spectacular and watching him all the way through for

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the podcast has given me just an absolute sort of newfound

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appreciation for him.

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And he is, it's a bit sad, isn't it?

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Like he's reading off the auto cue.

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There are little moments.

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There are little moments where he gets it back.

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You know, little moments where it seems like he's the doctor

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again.

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But he is visibly sick, isn't he?

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Yeah, I mean, there are glimpses of that magic and you can just

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see that twinkle in his eye and, you know, they've really made a

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really good effort to integrate him into the footage.

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I was really quite surprised at how much he has to do in the 4th

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episode, you know, and all the way through considering how hilly

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he is.

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And I actually sat there going, oh, couldn't they have put him

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into a car dressed him up in the doctor's costume and got him onto

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set, you know, just for 5 minutes so that right at the end when he

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says goodbye, he'd pop into reality with Pat there, you know, this

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is the last time that the 3 of them, like it's a moment.

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And it makes you realise perhaps how incredibly ill he actually

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was.

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But at the same time, just having the 3 of them in that story and

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interacting together, I just found was magic.

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I was so happy when Pat was back.

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It's like, 0 my god, it's the doctor.

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The doctor's back in the show.

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I can't believe it.

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And I've had this growing appreciation of perts we over the past

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few episodes, but Pat is so different, isn't he?

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He's so lively and active.

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You know, he's funny.

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He's a little bit panicked at times, you know, all of those sorts

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of things.

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Whereas as Pertry is so his contained, you know, and very low key

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and all of that sort of thing and not sort of openly sort of funny

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or anything and a bit a bit more pompous.

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And so it's so nice seeing Pat sort of run around the set and

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pairing him with Benton is a great idea.

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Yeah, I mean, what is so amazing about Pat.

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And it just very deliberately draws a contrast between the 2

251
00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:47.879
doctors, is that Joe and Benjamin, they're our audience

252
00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.220
identification characters, they're your big brother and your big

253
00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:50.639
sister.

254
00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:55.379
And straight away, they actually have an easier, more fun

255
00:11:55.379 --> 00:11:58.500
chemistry with Pat than with John.

256
00:11:58.620 --> 00:11:59.700
Yeah.

257
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:03.600
Pat sort of arriving and taking Joe under his arm and trying to

258
00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:08.820
explain to her what's going on and he's just so utterly charming.

259
00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:12.360
It's just yeah, it's amazing to see him back.

260
00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:14.879
There's a different energy about it, and there's a different

261
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:15.720
energy about him.

262
00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:19.200
I actually, I didn't think it was quite, he was quite nailing the

263
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:23.220
characterisation, and maybe that's because he's not paired with

264
00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.019
Jamie, who I'm so used to.

265
00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:27.600
And I just, and it took me a while to sort of adjust.

266
00:12:27.659 --> 00:12:33.000
And by episodes 3 and four, he's just so him. you know, and so I

267
00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:35.340
kind of, I was thinking, yeah, he's not quite there.

268
00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:38.700
William's not quite there and John's very different.

269
00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.460
You know, this is the 3rd story that's been recorded for this

270
00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:45.419
season and he's, I think it's a more relaxed performance.

271
00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.600
You know, the character and the actor emerging together much

272
00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:48.960
more.

273
00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:52.019
And so there's quite a bit of a link between the time monster and

274
00:12:52.019 --> 00:12:52.259
this.

275
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.240
And so as I was watching it and enjoying it.

276
00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.840
In those early parts of it, I'm thinking, well, they're all there

277
00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.559
but the characters are all just slightly not quite what I was

278
00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:03.419
thinking that they should be.

279
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:04.860
I think you're right with Pat.

280
00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:07.379
Lots of people say that Pat comes back and plays a sort of parody

281
00:13:07.379 --> 00:13:08.159
of the 2nd doctor.

282
00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:11.580
But I actually think you nail it, Todd, when you say that it's the

283
00:13:11.580 --> 00:13:12.539
absence of Jamie.

284
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:15.419
You know, that it's Pat with his companions.

285
00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:16.259
Do you know what I mean?

286
00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.480
There's so much sort of part of performance.

287
00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:22.620
And there had been a plan to get Jamie and Zoe back.

288
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:23.159
Yeah, yeah.

289
00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:26.100
Fraser couldn't come back because he was doing Emmerdale and

290
00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:29.159
Pertuy vetoed it anyway because...

291
00:13:29.220 --> 00:13:30.179
Well, apparently.

292
00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:31.679
Why do I know?

293
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:35.940
But he was on, he thought there were too many characters, but I

294
00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:39.840
suspect he just thought it would be less about him if other people

295
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:40.200
were in it.

296
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.419
See, there were so many versions of the script.

297
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:45.539
There was the version of the plot line with Om in the underworld.

298
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.059
And then there was a version of the script with Billy fully

299
00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:50.100
involved and Pat there with Jamie.

300
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.580
I don't think they had intended to bring back any of Billy's

301
00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:54.179
companions, though.

302
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.700
And then they found out...

303
00:13:56.700 --> 00:13:57.779
Could have brought back Dodo.

304
00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:59.340
Oh, yeah.

305
00:13:59.340 --> 00:14:00.600
We found out what happened to do.

306
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:01.919
We found out what happened.

307
00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:05.700
Dodo could have been married too, Mr. Olis.

308
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:06.840
Perfect.

309
00:14:06.899 --> 00:14:09.179
Living in a bird sanctuary.

310
00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.580
Oh, gee, you're elevating this story to high up.

311
00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:15.059
We never find out his wife's 1st name.

312
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.519
There's nothing to say she isn't Dorothea.

313
00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:19.139
And just because the accent's different.

314
00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:20.399
Well, it's bloody dodo.

315
00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:21.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

316
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:22.919
She changed accents once a week.

317
00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:26.340
And then there was the version of the script where they found out

318
00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:29.519
that Billy couldn't do as much action.

319
00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:33.480
So he was going to be on a screen for the 1st 3 episodes and then

320
00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.480
he was going to be physically there in the 4th episode and then

321
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:38.340
they found out he couldn't be physically there in the 4th

322
00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:38.700
episode.

323
00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:40.379
So there's a 3rd version of the script.

324
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:44.220
And then finally, Fraser drops out because Fraser had agreed in

325
00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:46.740
principle, but as you say, couldn't get out of doing Emmerdale.

326
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:47.519
They wouldn't release him.

327
00:14:47.580 --> 00:14:55.500
And so we get Benton in Fraser's role and the corporal who sees

328
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:58.440
unit HQ disappear was originally meant to be Benton.

329
00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.600
So Benton was going to disappear halfway through the story.

330
00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.340
Well, I'm really glad that in a way that happened because it's

331
00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:09.480
absolutely fantastic to see the Benton character expanded.

332
00:15:09.539 --> 00:15:12.600
I remember watching it as a kid going, I didn't realise that he

333
00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:13.559
knew the 2nd doctor.

334
00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:15.480
Like, it's one of those moments, you know?

335
00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:18.240
And then to be inside the Tartars, finally.

336
00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:21.899
And he's so accepting of it, like, you know, and this is not the

337
00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:26.759
1st time that Benton has demonstrated an openness to the ideas of

338
00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:28.259
time travel and everything like that.

339
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.240
We've said it in the time monster and the demons.

340
00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:33.600
And unfortunately, it does go to show up, I think, one of the

341
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.539
flaws of the story, and that is the characterisation of the

342
00:15:36.539 --> 00:15:37.980
brigadier in the middle episode.

343
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:40.799
It was the worst thing ever.

344
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:42.779
And it's not going to last. you know what I mean?

345
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:44.759
And there was a bit of it in the time monster.

346
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:47.460
He was a bit of an idiot in the time monster, but he's just a

347
00:15:47.460 --> 00:15:49.080
massive idiot here.

348
00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:52.740
And I think it is Bob Baker and Dave Martin doing their sort of

349
00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:53.820
stock characters thing.

350
00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.820
And so the brigadier gets to be a big buffoon and he doesn't

351
00:15:56.820 --> 00:16:00.179
believe the 2nd doctor about what's happened to Joe and the 3rd

352
00:16:00.179 --> 00:16:04.200
doctor and he believes we're in Cromer, you know, and he sort of

353
00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:06.419
stomps around just being a giant idiot.

354
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:07.860
He's really terrible.

355
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.620
It is it's the nadir of his character, I think.

356
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:11.399
Yeah, yeah.

357
00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:14.279
It's so bizarre that with all the things he's seen, he can't

358
00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:19.379
accept the idea of the doctor being in 2 places at once

359
00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:21.539
essentially, because that's what's happening.

360
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.340
Or rather, there are 2 doctors in the one place.

361
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:28.200
You know, as a child, you watch that and you laugh along with the

362
00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:28.919
brigadier.

363
00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:33.179
But as an adult, you kind of look at it and go, wow, you know

364
00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:35.580
they're really giving Nick some shoddy material here.

365
00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:39.480
The last time I watched this, which was completely out of sequence

366
00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:44.399
I really just disliked this story so intensely because of that

367
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:44.940
fact.

368
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.340
The brigadier, I thought was so poorly served.

369
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:51.120
So when I went in to watch it this time, I was really hoping that

370
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.159
I would find some positives within the story.

371
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:56.639
I think it's nice that in the 1st episode he actually is quite

372
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.299
involved, not having Yates there, I think, gives him a bit of a

373
00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:02.100
chance to sort of breathe.

374
00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:03.360
Where is Yates?

375
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.400
He's off directing a play, I believe.

376
00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:06.059
Really?

377
00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.039
He's telling other actors how to act.

378
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:08.460
Yes.

379
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:10.200
Great. grief.

380
00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:11.220
Oh sorry.

381
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:15.119
Well, yeah, okay.

382
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:17.880
He's only in he's only in 3 episodes this season.

383
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:18.900
Thank, though.

384
00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.859
He does some hilarious falling over in those episodes too.

385
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:23.579
We'll get to that.

386
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.720
We'll get to that, all right.

387
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:27.539
Richard Franklin, if you're listening, just be aware we're not all

388
00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:27.960
against you.

389
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:29.880
Oh, I really like you, Richard.

390
00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:33.059
What more can I say?

391
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:38.579
But in episode one, you know, the brigadier's t-sharing on the

392
00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:42.180
brink of this horrible foolishness, then, of course, in episodes 2

393
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:44.940
and 3, it's just galling.

394
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.000
It's his 1st trip off Earth and he just can't handle it.

395
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:51.480
Oh, when he sees the 3rd doctor again in episode four.

396
00:17:51.539 --> 00:17:53.519
He begins to fall back into place.

397
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:56.700
It suddenly does improve because he's got something concrete in

398
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.119
front of him.

399
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:00.059
It's really nice then at the end of the story.

400
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:01.799
There's a couple of moments that I really like.

401
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:04.559
I love the fact that Nick's and the TARDIS and Billy's on the

402
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:05.759
screen and it's sort of like.

403
00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:07.140
So everyone's in it.

404
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:07.920
Brent Vyon.

405
00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:08.880
Yeah, Brett Vine.

406
00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:10.920
It's harking back to that sort of game.

407
00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:14.579
And then there's that nice moment where they're having to go back

408
00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:17.460
through this singularity and Joe doesn't want to go and he says

409
00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:18.660
come along, Miss Grant.

410
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.220
And then he says, Joe. And I just love that moment.

411
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:27.720
And it echos the previous story where Yates is under attack from

412
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.380
the bombs and he's going, Yates, Yates, get out of the man, and

413
00:18:31.380 --> 00:18:32.759
then he says, mine.

414
00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:36.240
And they change, they just change the 1st name.

415
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:37.680
It just humanises him.

416
00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:41.039
I got absolute goosebumps when the time wants to win, he does that

417
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:41.759
with mine.

418
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:42.720
That's nice, isn't it?

419
00:18:42.779 --> 00:18:44.220
And there's those nice little moments.

420
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.700
It doesn't redeem the rest of it, but, you know, Nick gives his

421
00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:49.740
all and does such a, you know, wonderful job.

422
00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.039
And even when he does that double take looking out the unit door

423
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:54.539
at the CSA sand.

424
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:58.200
She does it really well, but you know, it's like...

425
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.119
I'm fairly sure that's chroma key.

426
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.779
Oh boy.

427
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:05.099
It's the...

428
00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:09.420
Todd, Todd, Todd, just...

429
00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:12.480
I think it's the opposite of what makes the brigadier work as a

430
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.240
character because what makes him work as a character is that he

431
00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.940
has this sort of wry amusement to the doctor.

432
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:18.779
Do you know what I mean?

433
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:20.940
Yeah, he's not meant to be phased by him.

434
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.940
No, he's not inferior to the doctor or stupider than the doctor.

435
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.259
In fact, he's able to be a little bit sort of Ryan condescending

436
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:28.680
with him.

437
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:33.420
And the same with Liz, you know, and like he's a bit warmer

438
00:19:33.420 --> 00:19:37.740
towards Joe. But he's not flawed by the fact that things are

439
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:39.660
ridiculous around him and that's really fun.

440
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.319
And so to have him be such a massive idiot here is a giant shame.

441
00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:46.740
And he will be back on form at the end of the season. very much

442
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:47.279
back on form.

443
00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:50.640
Yeah, this is the last time we see him until the end of the

444
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:50.819
season.

445
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.799
Like, he's got a massive gap.

446
00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:56.579
I suppose it's the same as last season, though, because we had Day

447
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:59.339
of the Daleks followed by the Time Monster.

448
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:00.000
He does have a lot.

449
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:02.819
Well, obviously at this point in time, you know, the production

450
00:20:02.819 --> 00:20:05.700
crew 4 years in, and they're following their same formula, you

451
00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:08.700
know, unit's going to be in the 1st and last stories book ending

452
00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:09.180
the season.

453
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.099
We've got the master in the middle.

454
00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:12.900
The Daleks are thrown into the mix as well.

455
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.279
Can we talk about the timelines?

456
00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:14.940
Yes.

457
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.839
We have Clyde Pollock back, who was actually one of the people who

458
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.920
tried Troughton and sentenced him to regenerate.

459
00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:28.920
And he was the nice time lord who let Jamie and Zoe see the doctor

460
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:29.700
for one last time.

461
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.380
So he's sort of terribly sweet.

462
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.299
That's a nice bit of continuity.

463
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:34.200
Yeah, yeah.

464
00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:37.380
And he's the he's the chancellor, so he's the one who opposes the

465
00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:39.599
giant haired president's plan.

466
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:43.559
Oh, can I just say I don't like the president is pretty crap as an

467
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:43.980
actor?

468
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.440
He's got huge hair, massive hair.

469
00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:48.480
He makes Pertuey look like John Hollis.

470
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:52.500
The weird thing is, and I always felt this as a child, and I'm not

471
00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:56.700
convinced I'm wrong, is that it seems like the chancellor is

472
00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:59.220
actually superior in rank to the president.

473
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:00.359
Yeah, that is weird.

474
00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:01.140
I thought that too.

475
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:01.920
He is great.

476
00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:05.160
But, you know, maybe that's an attempt to say even though they

477
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.759
have our words, human words for their officers, they might be

478
00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:09.420
slightly different.

479
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:10.680
Yeah.

480
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:11.160
Yeah.

481
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:13.319
Well, it's just a strange way of playing it, maybe.

482
00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:16.319
I mean, later on when we see the chancellor and the lord president

483
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.019
in future time world stories, it's the other way around as we

484
00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:19.380
might expect.

485
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:20.460
Yeah, yeah.

486
00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:23.160
In our own republics and what have you.

487
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:27.900
But I suppose on the other hand, in some republics, you've got a

488
00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:29.339
prime minister and a president.

489
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.339
The president is largely ceremonial with the prime minister making

490
00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:33.299
actual decisions.

491
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:34.740
So maybe that was the thinking.

492
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.819
That's why the chancellor is so brought out because usually the

493
00:21:38.819 --> 00:21:39.900
chancellor makes the decisions.

494
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.119
The president has the power to, but doesn't.

495
00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:44.579
But on this occasion the president's saying, no, we're doing this

496
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:44.759
thing.

497
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:49.500
We are breaking all of our laws and draining all of our energy to

498
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.119
try and save ourselves.

499
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.160
Could be a thing.

500
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:53.940
Could be a thing.

501
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.019
Could be a thing.

502
00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:56.460
Respect the thing.

503
00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:58.920
We haven't actually talked much about the plot.

504
00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:00.240
The story itself.

505
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:03.720
That's not very interesting though, is it?

506
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:04.980
I mean, that's the thing.

507
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.500
It's pretty lightweight, which I think is another clever decision

508
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:10.859
because when you have so many other elements, and especially when

509
00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:14.339
you have John Pertley and Patrick Troughton fighting for screen

510
00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:17.400
time, and notice I didn't say the 2nd and 3rd doctor because it's

511
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:18.720
not them fighting for screen time.

512
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:20.819
It's the actors fighting the screen time.

513
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.920
You don't want to have a complex plot.

514
00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:26.279
It's a very simple good versus evil, but with a slightly complex

515
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:26.819
villain.

516
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.140
Oh my god.

517
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:30.000
Stephen Thorn is really good.

518
00:22:30.059 --> 00:22:32.160
He's much better here than he was as a zaal.

519
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:32.819
Yes, yeah.

520
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:38.220
Like Azar was sort of growly, growly voice, you know, absurd

521
00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:44.220
tights, you know, and serious manscaping issues, whereas this is a

522
00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:46.140
little bit more sort of subtle and nuanced.

523
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:50.460
And he does get one spectacular moment and there's this almost

524
00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:52.079
sort of fairy tale moment.

525
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:55.799
It's being reenacted here by the omega figure in front of me.

526
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.680
The 2 doctors take his mask off and discover that he no longer

527
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:02.339
exist.

528
00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:04.140
And Tom?

529
00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:06.900
No, no, continue, please.

530
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.380
I just think there's something weirdly fairy tale about it and it

531
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:12.900
works because we're in this sort of magical realm sort of thing.

532
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:17.880
And it does make him a sort of tragic figure, you know, that in

533
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:19.319
fact, his escape is impossible.

534
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:24.660
His revenge can't mean anything because he's just a force of pure

535
00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:28.259
will and he's physically completely non-existent.

536
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.740
Look, I don't disagree with you on this, you know, I can see the

537
00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:35.039
comic book style there, you know, on one page, it's like Omega

538
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.200
says, help me take my mask off.

539
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:40.380
The doctors move in and then you turn the page and gasp.

540
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:41.160
There's nothing there.

541
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:42.960
And as a kid, that was just incredible.

542
00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:43.859
Yeah, yeah.

543
00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:47.579
When I, of course, sit down as indult and I think about this, I

544
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:51.960
kind of go, okay, so by my force of will, I have to create my

545
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.839
whole universe and therefore I can get no sleep.

546
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:59.460
Thus, I know what it's like for me after 24 hours and no sleep, I'm

547
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:01.319
going crazy, therefore I'm utterly insane.

548
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:04.559
You're ranty and wanting to destroy the universe after.

549
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.279
Correct.

550
00:24:05.339 --> 00:24:08.700
And then I sort of notice after some time that my head's slightly

551
00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:09.779
corroding.

552
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.859
Thus I've got to go and I'm going to construct rather than going

553
00:24:13.859 --> 00:24:16.200
to get, you know, like a facial with a face mask.

554
00:24:16.259 --> 00:24:19.680
I'm actually going to get a literal face mask, put it over my head

555
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.099
and not look at it ever to see what's going on underneath.

556
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.240
Just so, at that particular moment in time, we can then flip it up

557
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:29.519
and I've completely corroded away.

558
00:24:29.579 --> 00:24:31.680
Now, I'm overanalysing it.

559
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:34.500
He's like the Time Lord version of Guy Crayford.

560
00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:35.519
Yes, yes, yes.

561
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:37.740
Now, the, I mean, the only thing is...

562
00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:41.579
Omega has no one to talk to.

563
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.660
So, yeah, it's perhaps unsurprising he hasn't like looked in a

564
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:47.099
mirror or tried to brush his teeth.

565
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.059
Yeah, like if you'd had a date, you know. last few years, maybe

566
00:24:51.059 --> 00:24:51.720
you would have noticed.

567
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.680
Nothing but gel guards for company on those long, lonely nights.

568
00:24:55.740 --> 00:24:57.480
Can we talk about the universe?

569
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.099
creates for a second.

570
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:02.039
So in the novelisation, which I think is really pretty good.

571
00:25:02.099 --> 00:25:06.359
It's explained that initially he created like a really fun

572
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.240
interesting, fabulous world, but then he kind of just got sick of

573
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:12.599
that and let it all sort of degenerate.

574
00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:17.940
But even in the novelisation, like he's got this big brass, like

575
00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:22.740
bronze castle thing and they go in and it's this massive space and

576
00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:27.240
he's on a sort of spotlit dais, you know, and that's where he's

577
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:28.380
revealed.

578
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:30.299
Again, it needs to be fairy tale.

579
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.480
It needs to be this sort of strange castle and it's got minarets

580
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:33.900
and stuff.

581
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.359
It's really well described by Terence.

582
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:40.140
But what we get is really the cheapest possible set.

583
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.460
The money's run out.

584
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.460
It's Aladdin's cave, but it's Panto Aladdin's cave.

585
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:45.420
It's really poor.

586
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:51.660
I'd be I would be disappointed if I went to a panto and that's

587
00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:52.500
what the set looked like.

588
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.019
Apparently the sets were delivered unfinished.

589
00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:57.240
The paint job wasn't done on them.

590
00:25:57.299 --> 00:26:00.000
They weren't actually tall enough as specified.

591
00:26:00.059 --> 00:26:03.059
They were about a foot shorter, which is why they sort of go up

592
00:26:03.059 --> 00:26:06.059
and get jagged and then you have garbage bags over the top.

593
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:09.539
Yeah, Lenny Maine wasn't happy about that either.

594
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.579
Yeah, no, were they really terrible?

595
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.279
And again, so is the exterior as well.

596
00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:17.279
The fact that instead of this beautiful bronze castle, you get

597
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:22.380
that sort of crappy Blake 7 kind of door set into a wall kind of

598
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:25.859
thing, which, you know, Doctor Who is guilty of over and over

599
00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:26.220
again.

600
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.160
But I mean, even the Daleks get a better door setting to a wall

601
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:30.299
you know, later on in the year.

602
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:32.160
And then we get the gel guards.

603
00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:34.859
Which, I mean, holy Moses.

604
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:36.180
What's that?

605
00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:39.539
They've got the they've got the core of axles, right?

606
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:42.480
Isn't it the cause of axis, that claw thing that they have to miss

607
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:43.619
every single...

608
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:44.279
It is very similar.

609
00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:46.200
I'm looking at the action figure now, dear listener.

610
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:47.759
There is an action figure of a jail guard.

611
00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:49.619
It does one thing and I'll see if you can hear it.

612
00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:52.980
That's the claw moving.

613
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.839
That's the one thing this action figure does.

614
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:57.720
There's the prawn from invisible enemy borrower.

615
00:26:57.779 --> 00:26:58.559
I think so.

616
00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:00.839
If not the same, it's very similar.

617
00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.599
They need to keep using it contractually.

618
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:05.400
It's very expensive.

619
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:07.619
It reminds me.

620
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:11.880
They remind me of Sigmund the Sea Monster, who's Sid and Marty

621
00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:14.039
Croft creation from the 1970s.

622
00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:15.660
Yeah, Puff and stuff, isn't it?

623
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:16.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

624
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:18.180
They make a good noise.

625
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:25.079
Look, I think it's better than just having like generic soldier

626
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.720
cyphers, which he could have done like, you know, like the Bardens

627
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:28.319
or something like that.

628
00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:31.019
You know, at least they're different, but they can barely get

629
00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:32.279
through their own corridors.

630
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:33.539
No, they're criminal.

631
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.440
Well, they can't see because they've got a gigantic bicycle

632
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:40.680
reflector attached to their foreheads, the actors inside.

633
00:27:40.740 --> 00:27:46.200
So imagine having a plate hanging down in front of your face and

634
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:49.259
trying to navigate through doorways, which are about an inch too

635
00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:49.920
narrow for you.

636
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.279
So they have sort of, they didn't really think it through on the

637
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:53.880
design front.

638
00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:56.400
They have sort of moving eyes, don't they?

639
00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:57.960
Like that to make the eye move.

640
00:27:58.079 --> 00:27:59.160
Yeah, it's a giant mirror.

641
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:01.440
So when they when they move visually, it's very effective.

642
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:05.279
But yeah, poor John Scott Martin, Etal just couldn't see out of

643
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:05.819
those.

644
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.799
And John Scott Martin was inside one.

645
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:10.440
Coming back to the novelisation.

646
00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:14.400
I have the original cover for the novelisation here, which we're

647
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.640
all familiar with, it's Omega, extending his energy hands across

648
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:18.420
the 3 doctors.

649
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.240
Do we know what that is a ripoff of?

650
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:23.460
Oh, I've seen this before.

651
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:25.079
It's a comic book.

652
00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:30.480
It's Fantastic 4, issue 49. which has galactus in the place of

653
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.779
Omega reaching out his energy tendrils over the Fantastic 4.

654
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:36.779
So we'll put up a comparison of that on the website.

655
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.480
But Chris Akellos, you naughty, naughty man.

656
00:28:39.539 --> 00:28:40.799
He is really good.

657
00:28:40.859 --> 00:28:42.539
I had the one which had a different cover.

658
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:43.440
Did you have that one?

659
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.880
I've got the maroon cover.

660
00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:46.019
Yeah, I had the Maroon cover.

661
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:47.940
With the 3 doctors on the space game.

662
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:48.900
I loved that.

663
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.099
I loved it.

664
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.380
And I remember reading it as a kid and I may have actually even

665
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:55.140
read it before I actually saw the story on the screen and I kept

666
00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:57.900
saying to myself, I didn't realise the doctor had 2 companions

667
00:28:57.900 --> 00:28:59.339
like 2 female companions.

668
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.859
There's Joe and this Bessie and Bessie doesn't say very much.

669
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.099
So I was completely confused.

670
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:07.500
You know, I must have been 5 or 6 at the time.

671
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.160
I didn't realise that a yellow roadster was actually a car

672
00:29:11.220 --> 00:29:12.779
tremendous.

673
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:14.579
I do seem to recall as well.

674
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:19.079
That 2nd edition with the sort of Marone Burgundy cover is called

675
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.619
Doctor Who and the Three Doctors, implying that there's 4 of

676
00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:22.799
them.

677
00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:23.099
Yes.

678
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:29.220
So can I say something where I think that this show, this story is

679
00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:31.140
where the rot sets in for the entire show?

680
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.279
Oh, hello.

681
00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:32.759
Yeah.

682
00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:36.720
For the entire show, it's like, particularly the 80s.

683
00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:39.660
You're saying everything is ruined forever.

684
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:40.380
Yeah, yeah.

685
00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:41.640
Okay, go on.

686
00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:44.160
So this is actually the 1st time we hear the phrase, the 2nd

687
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.279
doctor, and it's said by one of the Timelords.

688
00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:48.960
So what happens here?

689
00:29:49.019 --> 00:29:52.680
inadvertently is that each of the doctors becomes a different

690
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:53.579
character.

691
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:57.539
So we actually have the first, 2nd and 3rd doctor and they're

692
00:29:57.539 --> 00:29:59.400
defined against each other in some ways.

693
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:00.480
Do you know what I mean?

694
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:04.380
So Hartnell's become a dandy and a clown, the 2nd and 3rd doctor

695
00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.180
fight each other because they're so different.

696
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:13.019
And I think that a tendency sneaks in by the 80s to start to cast

697
00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:19.859
doctors, not to play the doctor, but to play the nth doctor.

698
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:20.700
Do you know what I mean?

699
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:22.079
So I...

700
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:24.660
So they have to be different from what's gone before.

701
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:26.579
They have to be if they have to have a 2 or 3 word description.

702
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:28.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

703
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:30.599
And they have to be different from what's immediately before.

704
00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:36.420
And they start creating a version of the doctor that if you were

705
00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:39.960
just starting the show, you would never have that.

706
00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:40.920
Do you know what I mean?

707
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:44.400
Like, you would never have, like, if we were to pitch the show in

708
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.940
the 1980s, we'll have, well, there's an eccentric time traveller

709
00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:51.420
who dresses like a big giant clown, you know, and he travels

710
00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:52.079
around the universe.

711
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.339
Do you know what I mean?

712
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:54.059
You would just never do that.

713
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.380
The only reason that that happens is because they're defining

714
00:30:58.380 --> 00:31:00.480
they're creating a series of characters.

715
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:05.640
And I think the new show has largely avoided this.

716
00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:09.299
But it does become a problem in the 80s and I think the rot sets

717
00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:09.539
in here.

718
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.359
So naughty Barry, Dave, and Bob.

719
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:14.160
Yeah, it's an interesting point.

720
00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:16.200
I never really thought of it like that.

721
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:19.680
I mean, one of the things that I noticed was that Harton's

722
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:21.900
supposed to be the elder statesmen, where, in fact, technically

723
00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:24.720
he's the youngest of the three, if you think about it, in terms of

724
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:26.039
that age journey.

725
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:30.180
And we have to have conflict between the doctors, that irritated

726
00:31:30.180 --> 00:31:32.759
me a bit in the story, especially in episode four.

727
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:34.740
I thought by then maybe we can get on a bit better.

728
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.400
It does give Joe a few nice moments to interact and pull him into

729
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:41.700
line and there's heart there and that sort of thing, but it's sort

730
00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:44.759
of like, well, you know, anytime we have a special, have any sort

731
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:45.299
of interaction.

732
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.240
We have to have all this conflict and it's like, you know?

733
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:49.680
See, I actually quite like that.

734
00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:52.980
And I think it goes back to, we wouldn't have had that if it

735
00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:55.799
wasn't John Perley and Patrick Droughton being such different

736
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:56.460
actors.

737
00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:00.299
Because on paper, those lines where they're having a pop at each

738
00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:02.339
other, could be performed completely differently to be

739
00:32:02.339 --> 00:32:05.759
affectionate barbs of, oh, you're really me, but I'm going to tell

740
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:06.960
you off, you rascal.

741
00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:11.339
But instead, because John and Pat initially didn't get on very

742
00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:14.880
well because of their different acting methods, it brings

743
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:18.539
something to the performance that as the 2 actors work together.

744
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:21.180
They started to appreciate each other more, and by the end, they

745
00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:24.359
were quite good friends, and that's what you see in the story as

746
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:24.599
well.

747
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:27.240
They do come to respect each other as characters.

748
00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:31.920
And certainly, yeah, it informs every multi doctor meeting after

749
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:32.220
that.

750
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:37.200
Interestingly, it's usually the incumbent doctor who's the

751
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:37.980
grouchiest one.

752
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:44.039
But when we say in time crash, for instance, much later on, the

753
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:47.700
10th doctor is so happy to see the 5th doctor and it's Davison

754
00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:50.279
being the grouty one, which was quite fun.

755
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:53.640
And then in Day of the Doctor, it's hard to tell who's the

756
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:54.660
grumpiest out of the lot.

757
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:56.519
Captain Grumpy is pretty grumpy.

758
00:32:56.579 --> 00:32:59.220
Captain Grumpy is pretty grumpy, but at the same time, he's the

759
00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:00.480
funniest of philosophy.

760
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:04.920
I think they don't nail Hartnell's character here too, and I think

761
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:07.680
that they don't nail it in the 5 doctors either.

762
00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:11.640
He's a bit of an exposition machine in this, which is kind of

763
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:13.140
necessitated.

764
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:17.099
But he's also the grumpy one and the 1st doctor is cuddly. you

765
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:17.460
know what I mean?

766
00:33:17.579 --> 00:33:18.480
Everyone sort of forgets that.

767
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:21.480
And whenever when he gets brought back for the 3rd and the 5th

768
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:22.619
doctors, he's the grumpy one.

769
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:23.400
Yes.

770
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:24.839
I think that's completely wrong.

771
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:27.960
I was quite surprised to see his 1st shot is actually in the

772
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:31.200
garden, his garden, which mirrors the 5 doctors.

773
00:33:31.259 --> 00:33:32.880
And I never realised that.

774
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:35.579
I love the idea that it's actually the same day for him.

775
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.160
And that's why he's running away from the obelisk so fast because

776
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.019
he's like, oh, not a bloody guy.

777
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:45.839
That's why he's so annoyed all the way through the 5 doctors

778
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.539
because he's already he's already had this today.

779
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:52.559
He's just trying to relax in Sir Charles's garden while he's

780
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.259
trying to visit Dodo, and that's why he leaves without saying

781
00:33:55.259 --> 00:33:55.619
goodbye.

782
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.140
There are so many links to Dodo in this story.

783
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:00.180
It's it's dodo matic.

784
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:01.140
Dodo tastic.

785
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.160
Dodo tastic.

786
00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:04.440
Well, I never thought I'd be hearing that.

787
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:05.460
Ever.

788
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.539
It's really great that as a script editor.

789
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:13.679
Terrence Sticks sees the necessity to ensure that John Pertwee in

790
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:18.900
this anniversary story gets to pull a face, a gurning face when

791
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:23.159
he's wriving around on the ground, attacked by that creature thing

792
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:24.300
comedy gold.

793
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:26.579
Thank you, Terence, you knew we wanted it.

794
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:27.179
It had to be there.

795
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.739
That was actually in my notes.

796
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:31.679
I'm keeping a special eye out for per twig earning after your

797
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.139
definitive per twig earn list.

798
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.900
So, yeah, it says a terrific one, isn't it?

799
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.960
It's happening less, but for the anniversary story here. sure it

800
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:40.260
was in there.

801
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.179
And I just want to say about that fight.

802
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.639
Pertwee is a very poor wrestler.

803
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:48.360
He goes to his back about 3 times and that's why he ends up being

804
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:49.019
choked.

805
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:50.699
You know, he's just really terrible at it.

806
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:55.079
It's interesting that this is the 1st story of the season.

807
00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:57.840
They could have put it, you know, last or something.

808
00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:02.219
Obviously, the production team want to start the 10th series with

809
00:35:02.219 --> 00:35:08.639
a bang. previous year, they wanted the Daleks in it to launch that

810
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:09.780
season with the bang.

811
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.639
And of course, we saw last year with the Dalek story, it was the

812
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:18.659
1st story, since Galaxy 4, to have every single episode rating

813
00:35:18.659 --> 00:35:24.719
above 9000000 and the 1st time since the Daleks Master plan that

814
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:29.820
you've got an episode above 10000000 in this story, what I really

815
00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:33.539
love is the fact that Patrick Trouton finally gets 3 episodes of

816
00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:37.139
Doctor Who, that are rated above 9000000 viewers.

817
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.199
Episode 2 is the 1st time that he gets an episode rated above

818
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:44.519
10000000 and in the top 25, and then finally, in episode 4

819
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:48.480
11.900000 people tune in, and it's number 17 for the week.

820
00:35:48.539 --> 00:35:51.360
The only episode of Doctor Who that Patrick Trout actually gets in

821
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:51.780
the top 20.

822
00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:52.920
Fantastic.

823
00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:57.000
I mean, it has it has that amazing radio times thing, which comes

824
00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:57.239
out.

825
00:35:57.300 --> 00:36:01.019
You know, the 10th anniversary special of the Radio Times is

826
00:36:01.019 --> 00:36:04.920
released on the day that the 1st episode is broadcast and it's got

827
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:07.619
like articles about the history of Doctor Who.

828
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.559
I think it's still possible to get us a PDF and I did search the

829
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:12.539
internet for a long time, but it wasn't successful.

830
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:14.460
So everyone knew it was a big event.

831
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.400
Everyone knew that all of the doctors were coming, which is why

832
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:20.820
all 3 of them carefully appear in that 1st episode because

833
00:36:20.820 --> 00:36:22.079
everyone's waiting for them.

834
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:25.260
And like there's interviews with Carol Anne and stuff in it.

835
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:26.159
It's a big deal.

836
00:36:26.219 --> 00:36:30.539
I think they reissued it for the 20th and I think maybe Doctor Who

837
00:36:30.539 --> 00:36:32.820
magazine has issued it at some point.

838
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.420
I'm not sure.

839
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:39.000
Yes, and also about 8 or 9 years ago, I think in the wake of

840
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:43.980
Christopher Eccleston's 1st series, the ABC reprinted it as a

841
00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:44.820
magazine in Australia.

842
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.699
I was working at the ABC shop at the time and it just flew off the

843
00:36:47.699 --> 00:36:48.179
shelves.

844
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.099
We had to order extra copies in from other shops.

845
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:54.780
And the great thing was, because it's filled with things like the

846
00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:57.599
5th Hartle story being called the Sea of Death.

847
00:36:57.659 --> 00:36:59.039
Oh, really?

848
00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:00.840
Instead of the piece of mariners.

849
00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:02.039
Yeah they don't correct it.

850
00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:04.619
All of the Hartnell stories are just called after their 1st

851
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:04.860
episode.

852
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.440
Oh, so it's like the dead planet.

853
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:07.860
The dead.

854
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.500
Dead planet, world's end for...

855
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.460
Yeah, yeah, it was great.

856
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:13.860
That was insanely popular.

857
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:20.340
And it just goes to kind of show how iconic this story.

858
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:20.760
It's.

859
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.900
I mean, pert we is probably the 1st of the truly iconic doctors

860
00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:27.420
for the public rather than just for fans.

861
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:31.139
People sort of recognise him with a shock of white hair and the

862
00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:32.099
cloak and what have you.

863
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.980
And that's the image he has in that photo shoot.

864
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:35.820
Yeah.

865
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:39.539
And also another public idea is they know there are different

866
00:37:39.539 --> 00:37:41.340
doctors and they know they meet occasionally.

867
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:46.019
So rather than the ABC commissioning a new magazine about

868
00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:50.280
Christopher Eccleston or David Tennant who'd been cast by then.

869
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:53.400
They decide to go back to the 10th anniversary special, not the

870
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:56.280
20th anniversary Twim special, not the 30th anniversary Twim

871
00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:56.699
special.

872
00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:58.739
They go back to this story.

873
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.699
So maybe this is another reason why this story is the beginning of

874
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:07.619
the end as well because suddenly suddenly it's a big fan reference

875
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:11.400
work with or, you know, a list of stories and all of that sort of

876
00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:15.599
thing and it just, you know, starts to make possible because we

877
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:16.980
don't have repeats really.

878
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:21.420
We can't watch it at home, but we do have the radio times, you

879
00:38:21.420 --> 00:38:21.659
know.

880
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:26.639
So, you know, it enabled us to all get our anorax on and memorise

881
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:30.059
lists of production codes and things to a degree that would

882
00:38:30.059 --> 00:38:33.659
eventually, you know, kill the show in the 90s.

883
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:37.199
Yeah, and then people go and record themselves talking about it

884
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:40.739
and force it into people's iPhones.

885
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.659
So maybe it's just the beginning.

886
00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:55.500
Well, all aboard the SS Bernice, it's time to visit the Carnival

887
00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:56.099
of Monsters.

888
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:57.059
Todd, this was yours.

889
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:01.559
It was, and as you may recall, I was a little bit less than

890
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:03.360
impressed that I'd actually then given this one.

891
00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:05.340
Well, it's terrible, isn't it?

892
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.199
Well, of course, yes.

893
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:08.579
No, it's funny.

894
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:12.179
As a kid, when you were watching Doctor Who, there were certain

895
00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:15.659
stories, especially here in Australia with the repeats, that some

896
00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:18.179
you connect with and some you never did, you know?

897
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:23.039
And I can probably count 4 or 5 on the one hand that I always used

898
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:24.659
to think, oh, I don't like this one.

899
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:26.280
Can we just get to the next one?

900
00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:28.260
The invisible enemy?

901
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.880
Underworld.

902
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:34.019
The Sunmakers, Reposs operation, and this story.

903
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:35.099
Goodness.

904
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.260
That's 3 Bob Holmes. story.

905
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.559
So I'm going to take away your Blue Peter badge, for God's sake.

906
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.860
We'll discuss those ones later on.

907
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:46.860
Obviously, I have revised my opinion on a couple of those.

908
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.340
But as a kid, I didn't connect with those particular adventures

909
00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:51.239
and this was one of them.

910
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:56.099
And so I've always voted this like, you know, in the Dwin surveys

911
00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:57.179
like 2 out of 10, right?

912
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:02.099
And it's like me, you know, like literally I really disliked it

913
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:02.760
that much.

914
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.519
Is there some other podcast you'd like to work on?

915
00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:10.500
So coming into this, you know, I always knew that it was good

916
00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:12.000
right, in my heart of hearts.

917
00:40:12.059 --> 00:40:18.059
And so it begins with 2 blue aliens talking about aliens coming to

918
00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:22.559
their world to take over their jobs, et cetera.

919
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:24.239
And it's very clever.

920
00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:28.380
I really love the performances of Michael Wisher.

921
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:30.780
Terrence Lodge.

922
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.840
And the superb Peter Halliday.

923
00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:40.260
And of course, wow, ambassadors.

924
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:46.139
They, that, the whole plotline, that is set literally within one

925
00:40:46.139 --> 00:40:50.400
set and a half is just phenomenal, and I never appreciate it as a

926
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:50.639
kid.

927
00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:54.719
It is so clever, and I was just totally engrossed by their

928
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:58.739
performances, especially, although they're all really, really good

929
00:40:58.739 --> 00:41:01.500
but I really like Terrence Lodge as oral.

930
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.340
Do you know, I think Michael Wisher is absolutely hilarious.

931
00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:07.079
It is unbelievably funny.

932
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:09.719
He's having such a wonderful time.

933
00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:13.800
He's really sarcastic and laid back and he says that like, what

934
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:14.159
happens?

935
00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:18.119
I think they fail to destroy the miniscope with the eradicator and

936
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:19.500
he just goes, bravo.

937
00:41:20.579 --> 00:41:23.039
You want to know who it is.

938
00:41:23.099 --> 00:41:27.659
And before they were even created, Michael Wisher as Karlic is Sir

939
00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:28.800
Humphrey Appleby.

940
00:41:28.860 --> 00:41:31.920
Peter Halliday's player track is Jim Hacker.

941
00:41:31.980 --> 00:41:38.460
And that leaves poor Terrence Lodge. as Orum in the role of

942
00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:39.000
Bernard.

943
00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:40.739
You know, it's yes minister in space.

944
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.199
Well, I mean, they are British civil servants, which is why

945
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:45.300
they're gray and gray haired and bald.

946
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:46.559
Yes, you know what I mean?

947
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:49.199
they're and they're called they're called the officials.

948
00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:51.300
I mean, that's actually the name of their race.

949
00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:54.179
So they're the officials and they have the functionaries.

950
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.119
And so there's this very sort of class-based thing.

951
00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:59.940
And it's really sort of hilarious, traditional class-based

952
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:00.300
things.

953
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:04.559
The most telling moment, I think, is Orum says that the

954
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.800
functionaries that if you give them a hygiene chamber, they store

955
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:08.940
fossil fuel in it.

956
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:13.860
If you go to George Orwell in the road to Wigan Pier, which was

957
00:42:13.860 --> 00:42:18.780
published in 1937, he speculates that old ladies in Brighton

958
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:23.099
boarding houses are saying that if you give those minors baths

959
00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:25.260
they only use them to store coal in.

960
00:42:25.260 --> 00:42:29.340
So it is like this sort of famous thing that you said about the

961
00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:30.239
working classes.

962
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:32.820
So there's this whole sort of big class-based thing.

963
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:39.059
Is it also about the fact that Britain has joined the ECC, is that

964
00:42:39.059 --> 00:42:39.300
right?

965
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.239
And there might be people from the continent coming over to work

966
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:47.039
or anything like that. like Vorg and Sherman turning up.

967
00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:48.360
Like, is it a commentary on that?

968
00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:50.760
Well, I think that I think that there's something in the Pertz we

969
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:54.059
era generally, and we've said this before, where the Pertu era

970
00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:58.980
sees like supernational action, things like diplomacy and

971
00:42:58.980 --> 00:43:03.900
interactions between countries as inherently progressive.

972
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:08.099
And so in Mind of Evil and Day of the Daleks, it's seen as a wave

973
00:43:08.099 --> 00:43:11.820
of averting war, uh, in Curse of Paladon, it's seen as a great

974
00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:12.239
good.

975
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.519
You know, unit is a United Nations thing.

976
00:43:14.579 --> 00:43:18.659
And so one way that the Pertuera has of coding people as

977
00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:21.780
conservative is to have them as isolationist.

978
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:26.280
And all of that is happening at the same time as the European

979
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.679
economic community sort of happening and all of that sort of

980
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:28.860
thing.

981
00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:32.400
So, yeah, I think there are sort of links to it, but it just makes

982
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:34.920
them sort of stuffy and conservative, I think.

983
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:37.800
Yeah, and in the case of Borg and Scherner.

984
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:42.360
I think possibly not an overt reference, but I think they are a

985
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:46.139
reference to the traveller or gypsy, as they would have been known

986
00:43:46.139 --> 00:43:48.780
then, and Roma cultures in the UK.

987
00:43:48.900 --> 00:43:50.880
Hence the speaking of polari.

988
00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:55.739
So when Vorg finally meets the dot, he tries to speak to him in

989
00:43:55.739 --> 00:44:00.360
that sort of carnival code language, Polari, and the doctor

990
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:01.440
doesn't know it.

991
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:04.199
But there's a parallel between the politics here.

992
00:44:04.260 --> 00:44:10.739
And of course, when we get onto the SS Bernice, Major Daly and his

993
00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:14.820
daughter are travelling to India, which is, you know, part of the

994
00:44:14.820 --> 00:44:17.940
British Empire at the time, and they're still calling them

995
00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:18.360
Bombay.

996
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:19.500
That's right.

997
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:22.440
And they have, you know, there are Indian servants on board the

998
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:27.960
ship and Major Daily has a plantation and he won't have people

999
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:31.079
from Southern India working on the plantation because they're too

1000
00:44:31.079 --> 00:44:32.940
idle and all of that sort of thing.

1001
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:37.559
So the same kind of conservatism and racism is evident on the SS

1002
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:41.219
Bernice, as is evident on interminor.

1003
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:43.139
But what is really funny.

1004
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:48.119
And I think that this is the key to this story is that it's a

1005
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:48.900
commentary on Doctor Who.

1006
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:53.760
Right, okay. and on television, the nature of television.

1007
00:44:53.820 --> 00:44:59.039
And so at one point, Vorgen Scherner, who I think of other doctor

1008
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:00.300
and his companion.

1009
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:03.840
So they're disreputable, they wear silly clothes.

1010
00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:07.320
They have a magical device that lets you experience things from

1011
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:09.239
all throughout time and space.

1012
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:14.039
And they say that they're just purely to entertain nothing serious

1013
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:18.360
nothing political, but it's in a story with all of this politics

1014
00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:19.440
and stuff in it.

1015
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:22.019
And so the mini scope is very definitely a television, isn't it?

1016
00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:25.380
And just like the word television, it's made up of a Greek word

1017
00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:26.460
and a Latin word.

1018
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.219
Like television really should be teleopsis, shouldn't it, really?

1019
00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:32.460
If it's going to be all Greek, but mini scoped, you know what I

1020
00:45:32.460 --> 00:45:32.639
mean?

1021
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:35.460
Mini's Latin and scope is Greek.

1022
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:38.219
And it's a screen, but you look on.

1023
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:39.539
And what do you see when you look in there?

1024
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:41.219
You see Doctor Who monsters.

1025
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:42.000
Do you know what I mean?

1026
00:45:42.059 --> 00:45:43.260
You see overons.

1027
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:47.039
And so, so it's a carnival of monsters, much like Doctor Who, the

1028
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:48.840
miniscope is a carnival of monsters.

1029
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:53.340
And the very 1st story that we see is a sort of crap story where

1030
00:45:53.340 --> 00:45:57.179
people from Great Britain are attacked by dinosaurs.

1031
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:57.900
Do you know what I mean?

1032
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.619
And they're needlessly aggressive towards one another and stuff

1033
00:46:01.619 --> 00:46:04.860
because you turn up the aggression knob so that they can be

1034
00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:05.400
entertaining.

1035
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:07.739
You know, the trashings are great favourites with the kiddies

1036
00:46:07.739 --> 00:46:10.619
because they attack one other and stuff.

1037
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.260
And so the whole thing is about Doctor Who.

1038
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:17.280
And then when finally we get off the SS Bernice, we're wandering

1039
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:18.480
around in the back of a television.

1040
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:22.380
And so all of those dials and panels and stuff, it's like a big

1041
00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:23.159
giant television.

1042
00:46:23.219 --> 00:46:24.900
You've seen that, haven't you?

1043
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:26.760
This is everything you were going to say, isn't it?

1044
00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:28.440
Oh, evidently.

1045
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:30.900
Well, no, it wasn't.

1046
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:34.139
You know, this is why I think you've really hit the name of the

1047
00:46:34.139 --> 00:46:37.079
head why this story works on so many levels and why it is so

1048
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:42.659
clever and actually so, so good. despite all the 70s production

1049
00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:43.260
values.

1050
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:46.559
And I want to talk about and I want to talk about them in a

1051
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:46.739
moment.

1052
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.139
I never thought about some of those things, Nathan.

1053
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:50.460
I think that's very, very clever.

1054
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:55.079
I mean, I'm not the 1st person, I think, to kind of observe it.

1055
00:46:55.139 --> 00:46:55.860
Do you know what I mean?

1056
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:59.760
And sort of say, and if it talks about it, and about time talks

1057
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:01.860
about them crawling around in the back of television and stuff.

1058
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.960
I think it's really interesting then.

1059
00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:08.340
The doctor's commentary that he tried to have miniscopes banned

1060
00:47:08.340 --> 00:47:11.820
because there were actual living creatures inside who were being

1061
00:47:11.820 --> 00:47:13.980
who were being tortured and exploited.

1062
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:17.280
So is, you know, is that a commentary on the life of an actor?

1063
00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:21.059
I reckon the best thing, and it people mention it over and over

1064
00:47:21.059 --> 00:47:25.619
again. where it suggested to Joe that there are people outside

1065
00:47:25.619 --> 00:47:30.119
watching her being menaced by drashings for entertainment.

1066
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:34.199
And she says, they must be evil and horrible.

1067
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:38.280
I have to give it to Bob Holmes.

1068
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:39.599
He's brilliant, isn't he?

1069
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:40.619
He is so clever.

1070
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:43.320
But when I dressed up with it, that's exactly what Katie said to

1071
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:43.500
me.

1072
00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:45.119
So you must be evil enough.

1073
00:47:48.179 --> 00:47:50.340
To take it back to the production values.

1074
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:55.019
Like I was, as it began and they're standing against a blue CSO

1075
00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:58.920
sky and I went, it's really early to introduce CSO, I wonder who

1076
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:04.380
directed this story and I grabbed the DVD and it was like, it's

1077
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:08.219
Barry, let's, at least I'm prepared for it, you know, over the

1078
00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:08.940
next 4 episodes.

1079
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:13.440
And then we see the functionaries with their full on head masks

1080
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:17.699
which I'm going to have to nominate for the Jenny Laird Award.

1081
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:18.900
Spoiler alert.

1082
00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:23.760
And at the same time, they're then offloading, some wonderful

1083
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:27.360
space Christmas presents, which I'm also going to be nominating

1084
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:29.340
for the Jenny Maird Award.

1085
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:33.300
This is the beginning of my nominations for this season.

1086
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:38.460
And of course, they offload Vorg and Schurner.

1087
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.980
And can I just say Leslie Dwyer as Vogue?

1088
00:48:41.219 --> 00:48:45.179
Just pies that role to perfection.

1089
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:46.559
Is really funny?

1090
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:47.400
He isn't.

1091
00:48:47.460 --> 00:48:49.199
He just makes it, you know?

1092
00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:52.079
I do have a problem in episode four.

1093
00:48:52.139 --> 00:48:58.199
The character just becomes more and more, well, I think buffoonish

1094
00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:02.159
and I just wanted him to stop and actually say no, there are

1095
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:03.059
people in there.

1096
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:04.079
I'm going to do something.

1097
00:49:04.139 --> 00:49:06.599
And I know that's part of the script and it's part of the anxiety

1098
00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:11.159
and it reminded me of why I disliked part of this story as a kid.

1099
00:49:11.219 --> 00:49:14.880
It just really got to me and it got to me again watching this.

1100
00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:16.500
I just wanted to whack him in the face.

1101
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:22.559
Um, But it's, Scherner, that I have to talk about, Shell Hall.

1102
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:26.159
I think she is just fantastic.

1103
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:29.699
The character is unbelievable.

1104
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:34.199
It builds on the 2 strong female characters from or 2 or 3 strong

1105
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:36.059
female characters from last season.

1106
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:41.519
Jane in the Sea Devils. and then the secretary back in Day of the

1107
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:41.940
Daleks.

1108
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:43.440
Miss Paget.

1109
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:44.639
I always forget their names.

1110
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:46.559
Third Officer Blythe.

1111
00:49:46.619 --> 00:49:50.039
Third officer Blythe, who are these female characters who are in

1112
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.699
these more subservient roles, but who are completely more

1113
00:49:53.699 --> 00:49:55.559
competent than the people who are above them.

1114
00:49:55.619 --> 00:49:57.659
And here, she understands machine.

1115
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:00.599
She's got heart, she's the, she's the one who's driving everything

1116
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:01.079
forward.

1117
00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:04.260
When the doctor turns up, he treats her with such respect.

1118
00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:10.380
And I just think it's the performance of the Pertuy era.

1119
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:13.139
I've now watched every single perjury story, and I just think she

1120
00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:17.400
is phenomenal, and the last shot of the story, where she sees the

1121
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:20.460
tan is dematerialised, and then she has that, it comes to her with

1122
00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:21.300
the smile on her face.

1123
00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:25.980
Oh, I'm getting goosebumps now just talking about.

1124
00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:26.639
Yeah, yeah.

1125
00:50:26.699 --> 00:50:30.119
It's the similar moment to the end of Colony in space when the

1126
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:32.280
doctor says to Joe, don't tell him he'll never believe you.

1127
00:50:32.820 --> 00:50:37.920
Another thing about Schurner is that friend of the podcast, Charles

1128
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:42.539
Christopher, actually, a few years ago when we 1st met on an

1129
00:50:42.539 --> 00:50:47.400
online forum, he was asking if people could take a screen grab of

1130
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:51.360
Schurner, full-length shot of Schurner in her outfit.

1131
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.900
So I sent him a screen grab of her after she's done a little

1132
00:50:54.900 --> 00:50:55.199
dance.

1133
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:59.880
And it turns out he is, he was getting a friend to make a Schoner

1134
00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:01.139
costume for a Barbie doll.

1135
00:51:01.380 --> 00:51:02.760
Really?

1136
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:04.980
And now I'm not sure if that ever materialised.

1137
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:06.599
So, Chris, I'm going to be asking you about that later.

1138
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:08.099
We want a photo?

1139
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:10.440
I was hoping it was going to end that he was going to have a Shona

1140
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:10.980
costume.

1141
00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:12.300
Yeah, that's what I thought this was going.

1142
00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:13.440
Yeah, that would have been much better.

1143
00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:16.079
He would look amazing in a show no costume.

1144
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:18.780
Well, who has she got her own action figure?

1145
00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:21.480
Because she does.

1146
00:51:21.539 --> 00:51:23.940
Yeah, with all those flanian pobblebeeds coming off.

1147
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.420
So, Chris, we either need to see your Shona Barbie. we need to see

1148
00:51:27.420 --> 00:51:28.619
you as Sherna, one of the two.

1149
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:30.239
You'll put it on the website.

1150
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:31.500
It'll be in the show notes.

1151
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:33.599
What about you, Brendan?

1152
00:51:35.579 --> 00:51:40.619
Vorgen, Shoner, they are a version of the Doctor and Joe. As you

1153
00:51:40.619 --> 00:51:45.000
were saying earlier, and yeah, it just serves to emphasise that as

1154
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:48.360
good as pertly has become as the doctor, and, you know, I think he

1155
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:49.739
started very strongly anyway.

1156
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:52.980
And as well as his character has developed.

1157
00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:57.840
Joe's kind of the reason you watch the show and she's where you

1158
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:00.900
derive most of enjoyment from the show from Katie's performance

1159
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:01.980
and Katie's joy for it.

1160
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.059
So to have that effectively duplicated in this story.

1161
00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:09.539
Yeah, even with the doctor and Joe separated, he's got Scherner.

1162
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:13.559
And she is the magical component of the story.

1163
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.559
She is the magic of the viewer, and she's the one who shows

1164
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:19.260
concern for the creatures inside the scope.

1165
00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:22.800
But you also understands the workings of the scope, whereas he's

1166
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:25.139
had it for years and has absolutely no idea whatsoever.

1167
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:27.840
Yeah, which, again, the doctor with the Tartars.

1168
00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:31.739
It's funny when he pops out of the shoot or whatever at the

1169
00:52:31.739 --> 00:52:34.500
beginning and he's got his colourful costume on and all those

1170
00:52:34.500 --> 00:52:35.099
circles.

1171
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:37.800
I kind of, I sort of squinted my eyes and I kind of thought, yeah

1172
00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:41.099
it sort of, if you squint, it sort of becomes like a patchwork

1173
00:52:41.099 --> 00:52:43.019
sort of like the 6 doctors costume.

1174
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.420
And so I'm sort of thinking, you know, maybe somebody's looked at

1175
00:52:45.420 --> 00:52:48.059
this for referencing years too.

1176
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:52.079
One of the fan fiction anthologies in the late 90s or early 2000s

1177
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:53.159
the ones done for charity.

1178
00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:56.280
And if you're listening, I can't remember your name.

1179
00:52:56.340 --> 00:53:00.300
I'm very sorry, but someone wrote a short story, say a 100 words

1180
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:07.320
or so, which had Joe looking through an old photo album of unit

1181
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:11.280
and the 3rd doctor is holding this vulgarly coloured coat that

1182
00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:14.460
Vorg had given him to say thank you for helping them with the

1183
00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:14.940
drashings.

1184
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:18.000
And Joe always remembered that the doctor said, I will never wear

1185
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:18.480
this.

1186
00:53:19.980 --> 00:53:23.519
They're explicitly parallelled when they're 1st introduced because

1187
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:26.219
the moment that something goes wrong with the machine and Vorg

1188
00:53:26.219 --> 00:53:29.940
notices, I think almost in the next scene, Pert, we realises he's

1189
00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:31.860
steered the TARDIS in the wrong place as well.

1190
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.239
So it is, I mean, it is sort of pretty explicit, I think.

1191
00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:40.139
I find the, the, the dialogue really clever in the 1st couple of

1192
00:53:40.139 --> 00:53:44.159
episodes when the doctor and Joe have, of course, landed on ship

1193
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:49.980
and the repetition of those scenes is really, it's really fun and

1194
00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:53.940
you know it's going to happen, but it's slightly different and I'm

1195
00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:54.539
really enjoying it.

1196
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.059
By the time you get to episode 4 where, you know, the heat's

1197
00:53:57.059 --> 00:53:59.340
happening and the creatures are there and they're, you know

1198
00:53:59.340 --> 00:54:02.039
Claire's failing around and she's almost just remembering.

1199
00:54:02.099 --> 00:54:03.840
I'm just there going, I'm over this dialogue.

1200
00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:04.500
I'm over it.

1201
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:05.219
I'm over it.

1202
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:07.559
I mean, even Joe says, you know, here we go again.

1203
00:54:07.619 --> 00:54:09.599
Yeah, I like how Joe's sick of it.

1204
00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:10.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1205
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:11.400
So I was sick of that.

1206
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:14.519
Parallel to Borg's ineptitude.

1207
00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:15.239
I was sick of that.

1208
00:54:15.300 --> 00:54:18.780
And then just before that, they're menished by the jazz eggs and

1209
00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:22.679
Joe's getting more and more and more hysterical and I just wanted

1210
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:27.059
to slap her and I'm going, Bob, you've dropped the ball on this

1211
00:54:27.059 --> 00:54:30.360
you know, I this is not the Joe that I know, you know?

1212
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:36.119
But wait, just as I was ready to write it down, then they pause.

1213
00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:38.099
They have a conversation, right?

1214
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:40.679
And the doctor is explaining something to Joe, and it's about

1215
00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:42.900
lateral thinking, and the doctor explains what it is, but Joe

1216
00:54:42.900 --> 00:54:46.380
doesn't quite get the right meaning in terms of her interpretation

1217
00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:49.139
but the outcome that she gets at the end is right.

1218
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:51.179
She suddenly says, right, they're going back for the rope and you

1219
00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:52.739
can get out of here and you can help us.

1220
00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:56.820
And it's just this wonderful moment of, I think, what would you

1221
00:54:56.820 --> 00:54:57.119
call it?

1222
00:54:57.179 --> 00:54:58.019
serendipity.

1223
00:54:58.079 --> 00:54:59.280
Yes, yeah, absolutely.

1224
00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:02.039
Yeah, the doctor's talking about lateral thinking being sideways

1225
00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:03.960
thinking instead of approaching the problem head on.

1226
00:55:04.019 --> 00:55:06.900
And Joe takes it literally and says, well, if we go sideways, we're

1227
00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:08.340
back in the ship, where there's root.

1228
00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:12.119
And the look on the doctor's faces, but that's not what I, but it

1229
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:13.739
but you, okay, fine.

1230
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:15.659
It's a lovely moment.

1231
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:17.820
She is still hypercompetent in this.

1232
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.519
Like she's got her talent for bluffing, which she showed in curse

1233
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:21.179
of peladon.

1234
00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:24.360
Like she's the one who comes up with the story about it being her

1235
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:24.840
uncle.

1236
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:28.199
And in fact, it's Pertuy who spoils it by sort of proudly

1237
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:30.480
insisting, no, on the contrary, I'm a very good traveller.

1238
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:31.980
Yes, exactly.

1239
00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:32.519
Yeah, yeah.

1240
00:55:32.579 --> 00:55:35.159
And she's got skeleton keys and all of that sort of thing.

1241
00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:37.800
Like she's still, she's still vastly more competent than people

1242
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:38.760
give her credit for, I think.

1243
00:55:38.820 --> 00:55:40.860
Yeah, and the place where she's so good.

1244
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:45.119
And I think this is part of the evidence that Robert Holmes is

1245
00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:49.679
writing so much better for women now is her conversation with

1246
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:55.500
Claire, played wonderfully by Jenny McCracken, where she almost

1247
00:55:55.500 --> 00:55:58.800
convinces Claire that there's something weird going on.

1248
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:02.820
And there's that great blog which has tested every store, every

1249
00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:05.280
Doctor Who story against the Beckadell test.

1250
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:12.719
And it singles out this story in particular because Joe and Claire

1251
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:16.860
are having this conversation about big concepts, about the quality

1252
00:56:16.860 --> 00:56:17.820
of memory.

1253
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:22.619
And Joe isn't talking down to this girl from 50 years in her past

1254
00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:25.139
you know, she's talking to her as an equal and trying to get her

1255
00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:25.679
to understand.

1256
00:56:25.739 --> 00:56:27.539
She doesn't try to get any of the men to understand.

1257
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:32.639
You know, she goes for someone young, whose mind is flexible, and

1258
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:35.760
who is obviously intelligent because she's been commenting that

1259
00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:37.139
things are strange before anyway.

1260
00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:39.840
I think it's a really powerful scene.

1261
00:56:39.900 --> 00:56:43.199
It's a great scene for Katie because it's not often that Katie

1262
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.139
gets to act opposite someone her own age.

1263
00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:50.579
And it's a great scene for that guest cast member as well.

1264
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:54.539
So we have 2 really strong female characters in this, who even

1265
00:56:54.539 --> 00:57:00.300
though they are coded into subservient roles. are both very

1266
00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:03.119
intelligent characters with their own motivations and their own

1267
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:03.420
thoughts.

1268
00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:08.039
Joe's growth, you know, since the beginning is just so evident.

1269
00:57:08.099 --> 00:57:12.539
No, she lets the doctor escape when, you know, she's seen staying

1270
00:57:12.539 --> 00:57:15.539
away and he's into that sort of thing later on in the story as

1271
00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:15.719
well.

1272
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:18.780
I think I think she's actually like that from the beginning

1273
00:57:18.780 --> 00:57:19.019
though.

1274
00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:22.559
Remember Tariff the Ordon, she ignores the doctor's instructions

1275
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:23.639
and goes to rescue him.

1276
00:57:23.699 --> 00:57:27.179
You know, like, I'm not entirely convinced of a character to

1277
00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:29.340
development, and we'll talk about that maybe when we come to

1278
00:57:29.340 --> 00:57:30.239
frontier in space.

1279
00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:33.840
But I just think that she's been terribly competent and terribly

1280
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:37.440
plucky and just really, really fun to watch all the way through.

1281
00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:40.679
Yeah, I think what's really increased has been her confidence.

1282
00:57:40.739 --> 00:57:44.820
I think when she starts in terror of the oil tons, she thinks that

1283
00:57:44.820 --> 00:57:45.719
she can do these things.

1284
00:57:45.780 --> 00:57:49.199
And the difference this season is now she knows that she can do

1285
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:49.739
these things.

1286
00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:52.559
And I'll talk about that more when we get to Planet of the Daleks

1287
00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:54.780
as well, which I know you're looking forward to, Todd.

1288
00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:56.940
Like a hole in the head. but anyway.

1289
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:01.139
So I want to talk about one of the guest stars in this particular

1290
00:58:01.139 --> 00:58:05.940
story, which you haven't mentioned yet, and he's on the ship, and

1291
00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:08.519
he's an actor by the name of Ian Marta.

1292
00:58:08.579 --> 00:58:09.780
Hooray.

1293
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:14.039
His 1st role in Doctor Who, and of course, he's going to turn up

1294
00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:17.219
in a couple of seasons as the wonderful Harry Sullivan.

1295
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:20.519
That's unthinkable that someone in a guest role in Doctor Who

1296
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:23.400
should later turn up as a regular character.

1297
00:58:23.460 --> 00:58:24.000
Yeah.

1298
00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:26.159
And you know, I, it should be banned.

1299
00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:27.420
You can talk to Peter.

1300
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:28.320
He's not allowed to do it.

1301
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:29.039
Yeah, yeah.

1302
00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:30.300
Colin Baker.

1303
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.099
Peter Capaldi.

1304
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:32.880
Karen Gillan.

1305
00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:33.659
Oh, God.

1306
00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:34.139
Yeah.

1307
00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:35.219
It happens all the time.

1308
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:36.300
Hey, I love...

1309
00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:37.260
I like Karen.

1310
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:41.760
And of course, Ian Marta auditioned for the role of Captain Yates

1311
00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:45.420
and had to turn the role down because he had other commitments.

1312
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.159
Yeah, he was the 1st choice for the role, yeah.

1313
00:58:47.219 --> 00:58:49.260
And I'm glad that he turned it down.

1314
00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:51.119
So that we forget him as Harry, really.

1315
00:58:51.179 --> 00:58:52.079
He's spectacular.

1316
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:53.219
And he's great in this.

1317
00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:55.980
He really is, you know, he's angry and he needs to be angry and

1318
00:58:55.980 --> 00:58:58.380
then, you know, oh, I've forgotten about everything and who are

1319
00:58:58.380 --> 00:58:59.099
you and that sort of thing.

1320
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:00.780
Isn't it funny though?

1321
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:03.300
regular cast having played someone else earlier on?

1322
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:05.280
He tries to punch the doctor.

1323
00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:07.739
Colin Baker shoots the doctor.

1324
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:11.639
Karen Gillan is part of a cult that tries to sacrifice Donna and

1325
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:12.179
the doctor.

1326
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:18.420
Freeman Adjuman is working for Torture and becomes a cyberslave.

1327
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:20.820
And they're trying to get at the doctor.

1328
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:24.599
So I think the only, possibly the only person who's appeared prior

1329
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:28.860
to getting a regular role, who hasn't tried to kill the doctor is

1330
00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:32.639
Peter Purvis, because even Lala Ward was in the thrall of the

1331
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:35.219
shadow and tried to kill the doctor.

1332
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.019
Yeah, Lala Ward, gee, it happens all the time.

1333
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:39.659
Oh, yeah, this show's lazy, isn't it?

1334
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:42.900
Open spotlight, for God's sake. not that hard.

1335
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:43.800
You know what you find someone else.

1336
00:59:43.860 --> 00:59:46.559
You'd think the doctor would see a new companion and go, actually

1337
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:47.760
you look like someone who tried to kill me.

1338
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:49.199
No, we're not doing this.

1339
00:59:49.260 --> 00:59:50.099
We're not doing this thing.

1340
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:55.139
It's really good in the miniscope that you get to see a cyberman.

1341
00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:58.559
Like that's, you know, for the only time really in the perch.

1342
00:59:58.619 --> 00:59:59.460
A blob in a snowstorm.

1343
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:00.539
Yeah, that's right.

1344
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:03.360
Yeah, we get a still frame in mind of evil, but this is the only

1345
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:05.159
one that's moving and its head's not on properly.

1346
01:00:05.219 --> 01:00:09.300
It would have been quite nice to have gone into that particular, um

1347
01:00:09.300 --> 01:00:12.480
the German doctor have gone through that door into, to meet the

1348
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:13.019
Sardan.

1349
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.840
But instead they go through another door into some marshes and

1350
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:19.500
they meet the terrifying drashics.

1351
01:00:19.559 --> 01:00:21.840
Well, I think the drastics are really well realised when they're

1352
01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:23.579
in the marshes, you know, how the head pops up and everything.

1353
01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:27.659
And it sort of does this turn and like, and water comes off it and

1354
01:00:27.659 --> 01:00:27.900
stuff.

1355
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:29.159
I think they're really good.

1356
01:00:29.219 --> 01:00:30.599
And then when it bursts...

1357
01:00:30.659 --> 01:00:34.920
Yeah, and when they burst through the wall in to the back of the

1358
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:35.940
workings of the machine.

1359
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:36.599
That's really good.

1360
01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:40.559
Regrettably, of course, we then get the CSO moments on the ship

1361
01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:43.199
where they burst through walls and up through the middle of the

1362
01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:43.500
ship.

1363
01:00:43.619 --> 01:00:45.719
They're still better than the Pleicius or...

1364
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:48.239
Poke's little head through the...

1365
01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:48.960
Peekaboo.

1366
01:00:49.019 --> 01:00:51.239
I want to talk about puppets later.

1367
01:00:51.300 --> 01:00:55.019
Puppets as Doctor Who monsters, because, you know, it always it

1368
01:00:55.019 --> 01:00:55.800
always ends well.

1369
01:00:55.860 --> 01:00:59.280
Oh, there is a great special effect, of course, when Vorg puts his

1370
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:04.679
finger into the workings of the miniscope.

1371
01:01:04.739 --> 01:01:11.340
And if you look at his fingernail, it's completely full of grind.

1372
01:01:11.460 --> 01:01:12.719
Yeah, yeah, filthy.

1373
01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:14.159
It's just disgusting.

1374
01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:17.039
I'm nominating it for Jenny Leaderboard.

1375
01:01:17.099 --> 01:01:18.780
I mean, guys don't think about, you know.

1376
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:21.059
Is he picking up the TARDS then or is that where you're going?

1377
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:23.039
No, no, this is where he's trying to distract the drashigs when

1378
01:01:23.039 --> 01:01:23.579
they're chasing.

1379
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:25.139
I'm not sure, but it's...

1380
01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:26.940
Actually, yeah, they're filthy when he picks up the title.

1381
01:01:27.059 --> 01:01:27.780
Oh, it's revolting.

1382
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:30.599
Like when you see it, you can never unsee a deal.

1383
01:01:30.659 --> 01:01:32.039
Go back, watch it and you'll see it there.

1384
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:33.659
On my nominations list.

1385
01:01:33.719 --> 01:01:37.679
I love that because that cliffhanger to episode 3 where they're

1386
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:38.880
being menaced by the drash eggs.

1387
01:01:38.940 --> 01:01:40.980
Episode 2 is where they're being...

1388
01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:43.440
Oh, episode 3 is the doctor appears.

1389
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:45.059
Yes, which is...

1390
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:46.860
That cliffhanger.

1391
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:49.619
Sorry to interrupt, but that cliffhanger to episode three, the

1392
01:01:49.619 --> 01:01:51.960
doctor stumbling out and falling on the ground.

1393
01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:53.639
That is my first memory of Doctor Who.

1394
01:01:53.699 --> 01:01:55.139
Oh, wow.

1395
01:01:55.139 --> 01:01:59.219
Well, the episode 2 Cliffhanger is so fabulous because they're all

1396
01:01:59.219 --> 01:02:00.420
watching it on the miniscope.

1397
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:01.260
Do you know what I mean?

1398
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:04.199
It's actually sure that it intervenes to solve the cliffhanger.

1399
01:02:04.260 --> 01:02:06.480
Yeah, but they're watching it when we're watching it.

1400
01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:07.739
We're watching...

1401
01:02:07.739 --> 01:02:12.780
Schernavorg and the Interminorians watching the Dr. and Joe

1402
01:02:12.780 --> 01:02:13.980
watching the drashings.

1403
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:14.940
It's wonderful.

1404
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:15.840
Just proofing.

1405
01:02:15.900 --> 01:02:17.880
And, you know, we'll be screaming at the screen.

1406
01:02:17.940 --> 01:02:20.219
Do something, do something, and then Shona does something.

1407
01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:23.940
Do you like the set of the inner workings that Joe and I?

1408
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:24.780
crawl around in.

1409
01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:28.019
It's not great, but it does look, I mean, it looks like the

1410
01:02:28.019 --> 01:02:30.960
insides of a television, I think, and that's, you know...

1411
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:32.820
Yeah, I think it's really good.

1412
01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:37.320
And I think the use of the black backdrop is really good and the

1413
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:40.980
fact that they make all the little bits of it look so different, so

1414
01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:45.059
they can shoot it from different angles and you are convinced that

1415
01:02:45.059 --> 01:02:47.099
they've travelled a few miles.

1416
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:50.099
We haven't really talked about, like this looks cheap.

1417
01:02:50.219 --> 01:02:51.300
Do you know what I mean?

1418
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.099
But it is deliberately the cheap episode.

1419
01:02:53.219 --> 01:02:59.280
And the way that lets does it is he can employ the SS Bernice

1420
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:04.679
characters for 2 weeks and he can employ the people on into minor

1421
01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:07.139
for 2 weeks because they never meet one another.

1422
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:10.500
They're the only people you have to pay for 4 episodes of the

1423
01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:11.159
doctor and show.

1424
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:13.980
And so it's deliberately their cheap episode.

1425
01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:17.159
And Sandifer points out, look, it's the cheap episode, but who do

1426
01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:17.940
they get to direct?

1427
01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:18.960
They get Barry Letz?

1428
01:03:19.019 --> 01:03:20.159
You know, who do they get to write it?

1429
01:03:20.219 --> 01:03:21.059
They get Bob Holmes.

1430
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:21.480
Yeah.

1431
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:24.599
And so they do get this really good story, but it's their money

1432
01:03:24.599 --> 01:03:29.400
saving story after they blew the budget on Omega's fantastic

1433
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:30.300
grotto.

1434
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:34.260
And of course, Frontier in Space, where it's considerable London

1435
01:03:34.260 --> 01:03:37.559
location filming had been shot at this point as well.

1436
01:03:37.619 --> 01:03:41.460
It's really quite effective because if we count it out, you've got

1437
01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:45.000
the interminor set, which is really one. 5 rooms, as you said

1438
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:45.599
earlier, Todd.

1439
01:03:45.659 --> 01:03:46.860
And crummy, isn't it?

1440
01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:47.219
Yeah.

1441
01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:51.360
You've got, I think, 4 sets on the SS Bernice.

1442
01:03:51.420 --> 01:03:54.900
But the cabin, the corridor, the crew room and the hold.

1443
01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:55.500
Yeah.

1444
01:03:55.500 --> 01:03:58.920
And all the location shooting is on that boat.

1445
01:03:58.980 --> 01:04:00.719
Or in the marshes.

1446
01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:01.920
Oh, in the marshes.

1447
01:04:01.980 --> 01:04:04.800
And the captain's only on location, like only in one scene.

1448
01:04:04.860 --> 01:04:05.699
Exactly.

1449
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:10.019
And the boat itself was a great economical measure.

1450
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:13.079
What Barry Letsey was, he found an appropriate boat that was being

1451
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:15.960
towed up the coast for scraps, so it was going anyway.

1452
01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:21.420
And the company towing it or the owner said, oh, yeah, sure.

1453
01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:24.119
Yeah, you can come in and film with us and you don't have to pay

1454
01:04:24.119 --> 01:04:26.340
us a fee or you only have to pay us a nominal fee.

1455
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:29.880
And then, of course, pert we nicked the ship's compass, which is

1456
01:04:29.880 --> 01:04:32.519
the one part that the owner wanted to keep and had to give it

1457
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:32.699
back.

1458
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:35.400
Like you do, man.

1459
01:04:35.460 --> 01:04:37.800
To be fair, he thought, it's going to be junked.

1460
01:04:37.860 --> 01:04:41.579
I'll just take this, but apparently, and well, I think pert we

1461
01:04:41.579 --> 01:04:43.199
knew this having been an old Navy man.

1462
01:04:43.260 --> 01:04:46.380
It's traditional for the owner or a captain of a ship. to keep the

1463
01:04:46.380 --> 01:04:47.280
compass when it's junk.

1464
01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:49.260
Part of the plotline.

1465
01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:50.699
I just want clarified in my own head.

1466
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:53.039
Well, there's actually two.

1467
01:04:53.099 --> 01:04:57.659
So the doctor has been part of the team that bans these many

1468
01:04:57.659 --> 01:04:58.019
scopes.

1469
01:04:58.079 --> 01:04:58.679
When does that happen?

1470
01:04:58.739 --> 01:05:01.739
Does it happen when he's like, Hartnell is a young man when the

1471
01:05:01.739 --> 01:05:05.400
Time Lords were still going out there and interfering a bit and

1472
01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:08.039
then something goes wrong and they stop doing that and therefore

1473
01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.920
after 150 years, he then decides to leave.

1474
01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:11.880
Or does when does it happen?

1475
01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:14.699
Yeah, I'd say it must happen before he leaves Gallifroy.

1476
01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:17.159
Yeah, I think it has to happen before he leaves Galafre because he

1477
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:20.340
hasn't been he's not in contact with the Time Lords until War

1478
01:05:20.340 --> 01:05:20.880
Games.

1479
01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:22.800
Because in their very next story.

1480
01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:26.400
He's met the Draconians before and helped them with the

1481
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:26.940
situation.

1482
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:33.780
But again, I also feel like that is also set way back. they don't

1483
01:05:33.780 --> 01:05:34.800
recognise his countenance.

1484
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:38.519
That story about the Medusoids and stuff in frontier in space too

1485
01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:41.880
where he's like an emissary on his way to a some kind of

1486
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:42.780
conference.

1487
01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:43.980
That must be that as well.

1488
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:47.699
The issue is that the time lords change every time they're

1489
01:05:47.699 --> 01:05:51.420
introduced, like the conception of what they are like changes all

1490
01:05:51.420 --> 01:05:51.780
the time.

1491
01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:57.420
And so it sounds like they don't interfere in the sense that, you

1492
01:05:57.420 --> 01:06:00.059
know, what the doctor does, like, turn up. somewhere and change

1493
01:06:00.059 --> 01:06:03.900
things, but they have some kind of political presence.

1494
01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:08.699
You know, like in um, the 2 doctors where the time lords and the

1495
01:06:08.699 --> 01:06:11.940
ninth zone governments or whatever the hell it is.

1496
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:12.960
Do you know what I mean?

1497
01:06:13.019 --> 01:06:16.500
They're known and you know, there's some kind of negotiations and

1498
01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:17.099
stuff going on.

1499
01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:20.340
So I'm imagining that's the conception of the time lords there, but

1500
01:06:20.340 --> 01:06:24.119
it is slightly more boring a conception than the one we had even

1501
01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:27.780
the previous story and certainly vastly vastly more boring than

1502
01:06:27.780 --> 01:06:30.239
the conception that we had in the war games where they were huge

1503
01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:32.639
terrifying, sort of omnipotent entities.

1504
01:06:32.699 --> 01:06:36.000
Yeah, I quite like the idea that some of these things, such as

1505
01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:39.119
going to the peace conference with the Medusoids, happened during

1506
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:43.440
season 6B. No, there's no season 6B. No, there isn't.

1507
01:06:43.500 --> 01:06:46.920
But it's borne out by the comics of the time with the scarecrows.

1508
01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:47.940
Nope, crazy.

1509
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:50.880
No, there's no John and Gillian either, all right.

1510
01:06:50.940 --> 01:06:55.019
The other thing is this, okay, so the doctor knows that the SS

1511
01:06:55.019 --> 01:06:56.039
Denise disappeared.

1512
01:06:56.099 --> 01:07:00.539
The end of the story, the SNS Bernice has returned, right?

1513
01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:02.219
And they go to the next day.

1514
01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:04.980
But the doctor still remembers back at the beginning that it

1515
01:07:04.980 --> 01:07:05.519
disappeared.

1516
01:07:05.579 --> 01:07:08.519
Therefore, the reason why it just it still disappeared.

1517
01:07:08.579 --> 01:07:10.619
Everybody's still never, they never made it to Bombay.

1518
01:07:10.619 --> 01:07:12.659
And, no, they made it to Bombay.

1519
01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:14.760
No, they didn't because at the beginning of the story, he

1520
01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:15.840
remembers it disappearing.

1521
01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.599
And therefore, the only thing that's changed is the reason.

1522
01:07:18.659 --> 01:07:20.340
No, time can be rewritten.

1523
01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:22.260
Okay, this is what does my heating.

1524
01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:26.039
Back to day of the Darling. back in the day of the Daleks, right?

1525
01:07:26.099 --> 01:07:31.139
They come back in time to destroy this man who started World War

1526
01:07:31.139 --> 01:07:34.860
whatever, but then they realised that he's not part of it and he

1527
01:07:34.860 --> 01:07:35.400
doesn't die.

1528
01:07:35.519 --> 01:07:37.980
Therefore, in the future, that future never happened.

1529
01:07:38.039 --> 01:07:39.179
Therefore, they should never come back.

1530
01:07:39.179 --> 01:07:40.500
So day of the Delix never appeared.

1531
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:44.760
Ah, but in the case of the SS Bernice, the doctor and Joe don't

1532
01:07:44.760 --> 01:07:47.880
destroy the miniscope and send everyone back because the SS

1533
01:07:47.880 --> 01:07:48.780
Bernice disappeared.

1534
01:07:48.840 --> 01:07:52.860
If they were investigating the disappearance of the SS Bernice, and

1535
01:07:52.860 --> 01:07:55.679
that was their motivation, that would create a paradox.

1536
01:07:55.739 --> 01:07:57.960
But because it's a side effect, it doesn't create a paradox.

1537
01:07:58.019 --> 01:08:00.780
I'm not saying it's a paradox, but I'm still saying the SS Bernice

1538
01:08:00.780 --> 01:08:01.800
never gets to its destination.

1539
01:08:01.860 --> 01:08:02.699
No, no, doctor.

1540
01:08:03.179 --> 01:08:06.960
No, because the doctor does remember that it disappeared and

1541
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:09.119
that's part of his dialogue, right?

1542
01:08:09.179 --> 01:08:11.280
Doesn't he say he changes it or something?

1543
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:13.619
Does he say something in the dialogue?

1544
01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:15.420
They don't mention it one way or the other.

1545
01:08:15.539 --> 01:08:19.680
I mean, she marries Lieutenant Andrews and she goes to India and

1546
01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:21.899
patronises some Indian people.

1547
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:25.680
This is one of my internal workings of my head just going, you

1548
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:26.579
know, that's really nasty.

1549
01:08:26.699 --> 01:08:28.979
I would just try not to think about it too much.

1550
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:32.520
That's why that's why I don't think about it for Day of the Darks

1551
01:08:32.520 --> 01:08:33.899
and that's why I'm trying not to think about it for this.

1552
01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:38.460
You know what, it's entirely possible. that it does sink.

1553
01:08:38.699 --> 01:08:41.100
No, I won't have it.

1554
01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:46.319
Yeah, like, you know, the R101 had to crash and Charlie had to be

1555
01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:48.420
dealt with and et cetera, et cetera.

1556
01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:49.260
No, none of that's real.

1557
01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:51.000
Well, look, I'm really, really pleased.

1558
01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:52.439
I love you, India.

1559
01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:54.479
We do love India.

1560
01:08:54.539 --> 01:08:55.260
She is fabulous.

1561
01:08:55.319 --> 01:08:56.520
I don't know who she is.

1562
01:08:56.579 --> 01:08:57.779
No, no, I do.

1563
01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:01.500
I'm really, really pleased that I had the opportunity to sit down

1564
01:09:01.500 --> 01:09:04.439
and really watch this properly again, and, you know, now I'd

1565
01:09:04.439 --> 01:09:07.500
easily give it 8.5 attitude.

1566
01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:09.300
I'm not going Doctor Who.

1567
01:09:09.359 --> 01:09:13.859
But what I'm saying is that it's a really, really good story and

1568
01:09:13.859 --> 01:09:15.720
its reputation is well deserved.

1569
01:09:15.779 --> 01:09:19.920
It also is, well, actually one of only 2 stories in the entire

1570
01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:24.180
poetry era, that all the episodes, 9000000 viewers or more.

1571
01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:25.380
Right.

1572
01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:27.539
Even the 3 doctors doesn't get that.

1573
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:30.300
Episode 3 drops below 9 million.

1574
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:33.119
It's quality and the audience recognises it.

1575
01:09:33.180 --> 01:09:37.319
And I do think it's a great continuation of the 10th anniversary

1576
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:40.619
being a show that references monsters and references the fact that

1577
01:09:40.619 --> 01:09:41.399
it's Doctor Who.

1578
01:09:41.460 --> 01:09:45.000
It gives us another doctor and companion character, and it's the

1579
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:48.960
1st proper adventure out into space where the doctor's not being

1580
01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:50.399
manipulated by the Time Lords anymore.

1581
01:09:50.460 --> 01:09:53.760
They mentioned they mentioned the Ogrens and the Daleks as well in

1582
01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:54.539
their dialogue too.

1583
01:09:54.600 --> 01:09:56.399
You see an Ogron, I think, on the screen.

1584
01:09:56.460 --> 01:09:57.060
Yeah, you do.

1585
01:09:57.180 --> 01:09:57.720
Oh, okay.

1586
01:09:57.779 --> 01:09:59.220
Yeah, they've got no gron in there.

1587
01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:04.319
So yeah, they're foreshadowing the Daleks as well, who may or may

1588
01:10:04.319 --> 01:10:08.159
not turn up. as we head even further out to find a frontier in

1589
01:10:08.159 --> 01:10:08.699
space.

1590
01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:31.199
So, this is my one, and I think it's a fabulous remake of the

1591
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:32.460
space pirates, actually.

1592
01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:34.739
I was pretty excited.

1593
01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:38.039
Well, it couldn't be a worse remake of the Space Pirates, could

1594
01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:38.220
it?

1595
01:10:38.279 --> 01:10:41.760
Listener, if we're going to do the space pirates again, I'm going

1596
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:45.300
to go home and given that I am home, if you mention the space

1597
01:10:45.300 --> 01:10:46.680
pirates again, I'm going to kick you out.

1598
01:10:46.739 --> 01:10:47.579
Go on.

1599
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:50.699
Actually, I actually remember the space pirates very fondly.

1600
01:10:50.760 --> 01:10:52.979
I think we are very critical on the ground that it's pretty

1601
01:10:52.979 --> 01:10:56.159
terrible, but I do have fond memories of it.

1602
01:10:56.220 --> 01:11:00.000
In particular, all that sort of space model work and all of the

1603
01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:03.359
you know, people in astronaut costumes on Kirby Wise and all of

1604
01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:03.539
that.

1605
01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:04.619
We do get a lot of that.

1606
01:11:04.680 --> 01:11:07.800
And it's been, you know, space opera.

1607
01:11:07.859 --> 01:11:10.800
I mean, I guess if you watch Doctor Who in the 1970s, you think

1608
01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:14.640
it's always sort of ray guns and spaceships, but it wasn't much

1609
01:11:14.640 --> 01:11:16.979
that at all during its 1st 10 years.

1610
01:11:16.979 --> 01:11:22.680
And I think if we're not allowed to mention the space pirates, I

1611
01:11:22.680 --> 01:11:26.100
guess the best previous analogue is the Dalek master plan.

1612
01:11:26.340 --> 01:11:28.380
I've forgotten how to say that.

1613
01:11:28.439 --> 01:11:30.180
Is it Dalek or Dale X master plan?

1614
01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:31.680
The Dalex masterplan.

1615
01:11:31.739 --> 01:11:32.939
Oh, it's Daleks, right?

1616
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:33.600
Yes, plural.

1617
01:11:33.659 --> 01:11:34.380
It's genitive.

1618
01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:39.960
So the idea is that everyone remembers the Dalek's master plan

1619
01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:43.619
sort of fondly it's a big 12 part epic, they look into the idea of

1620
01:11:43.619 --> 01:11:44.880
doing it again, apparently.

1621
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:46.199
Yes, yeah.

1622
01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:48.840
And well, that was part of the 10th anniversary.

1623
01:11:48.899 --> 01:11:51.720
Again, it was, well, we're going to have a dialect story anyway.

1624
01:11:51.779 --> 01:11:53.279
Terry Nation's going to have to write it.

1625
01:11:53.340 --> 01:11:57.960
Oh, Terry Nation once wrote, sorry, wrote inverted commas, a 12

1626
01:11:57.960 --> 01:11:59.039
part dalek story.

1627
01:11:59.100 --> 01:12:00.060
Let's do that again.

1628
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:02.399
And so they go to Dougie Campfield, apparently.

1629
01:12:02.460 --> 01:12:04.920
And this is both in about time and in Xander.

1630
01:12:04.979 --> 01:12:07.680
They go to Dougie Canfield and say, you know, how's that going to

1631
01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:07.920
work?

1632
01:12:07.979 --> 01:12:09.239
And he says, don't do it.

1633
01:12:09.300 --> 01:12:10.319
It's too long.

1634
01:12:10.439 --> 01:12:17.279
And so what they decide to do instead is this sort of 2 incredibly

1635
01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:19.380
tenuously linked 6 parters.

1636
01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:26.039
So frontier in space, which we're talking about now, and then

1637
01:12:26.039 --> 01:12:31.079
after an unexpected and completely inexplicable cliffhanger, which

1638
01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:34.199
we'll come back to. will get Planet of the Daleks, which we'll

1639
01:12:34.199 --> 01:12:34.979
talk about next episode.

1640
01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:38.880
So Terry Nation also just contractually.

1641
01:12:38.939 --> 01:12:41.819
He got the right for 1st refusal, doesn't he?

1642
01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:42.840
with document stories.

1643
01:12:42.899 --> 01:12:46.619
Yes, after Day of the Daleks, when they didn't realise that the

1644
01:12:46.619 --> 01:12:48.840
Dalek copyright rested with Terry Nation.

1645
01:12:48.899 --> 01:12:51.779
Terry Nation said, oh, you know, now that you know, I'm quite

1646
01:12:51.779 --> 01:12:55.140
happy for you to go ahead with this story, but you should ask me

1647
01:12:55.140 --> 01:12:55.680
in future.

1648
01:12:55.739 --> 01:12:58.500
I'm not sure if it was a written agreement or a gentleman's

1649
01:12:58.500 --> 01:13:01.560
agreement, but it certainly stayed in force for the next, really

1650
01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:02.579
the next 6 years.

1651
01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:05.939
Yeah, 1979 is his last dialect story.

1652
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:09.420
And actually, in fact, I think in the 80s, he still had 1st

1653
01:13:09.420 --> 01:13:12.899
refusal, but by that time he was working in America, by the time

1654
01:13:12.899 --> 01:13:15.119
of Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy, certainly, he was script

1655
01:13:15.119 --> 01:13:16.979
editing on MacGyver. crazy.

1656
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:18.000
Yeah indeed.

1657
01:13:18.060 --> 01:13:18.420
Yeah.

1658
01:13:18.479 --> 01:13:19.260
So Nathan.

1659
01:13:19.439 --> 01:13:21.659
So what have you discovered?

1660
01:13:21.720 --> 01:13:24.539
Well, look, I'm not entirely sure.

1661
01:13:24.600 --> 01:13:26.939
I'm a bit ambivalent about it.

1662
01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:27.720
Okay.

1663
01:13:27.779 --> 01:13:33.000
So I don't think that this really works as a story in one way.

1664
01:13:33.060 --> 01:13:34.619
It's really very linear.

1665
01:13:34.680 --> 01:13:35.460
Do you know what I mean?

1666
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:38.520
And people have observed over and over again that it's just the

1667
01:13:38.520 --> 01:13:42.239
doctor and Joe being shoved into a series of prison cells and sort

1668
01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:43.859
of dragged around the galaxy.

1669
01:13:44.279 --> 01:13:48.420
So there's a way in which it's just sort of 5 episodes of stuff

1670
01:13:48.420 --> 01:13:52.020
happening while we faff around waiting for the Daleks to show up.

1671
01:13:52.079 --> 01:13:55.319
But then in other ways, I think it works really tremendously

1672
01:13:55.319 --> 01:13:55.619
well.

1673
01:13:55.680 --> 01:13:58.380
And I think a lot of the incidents that happen are really good.

1674
01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:01.199
There's some great characters and great locations.

1675
01:14:01.260 --> 01:14:04.619
It's got a bit of a scale to it, and it starts off really, really

1676
01:14:04.619 --> 01:14:08.460
small and turns into, you know, the brink of an intergalactic

1677
01:14:08.460 --> 01:14:08.699
war.

1678
01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:12.720
And fairly organically over the, over the uh, 6 episodes.

1679
01:14:12.779 --> 01:14:19.439
So we arrive as usual in a cupboard, um, uh, and we do that, of

1680
01:14:19.439 --> 01:14:23.220
course, of course, in the mutants and in, well, carnival of

1681
01:14:23.220 --> 01:14:24.060
monsters, frankly.

1682
01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:26.220
So we're constantly turning up and cupboard.

1683
01:14:26.279 --> 01:14:26.819
So we do that again.

1684
01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.119
And in this cupboard, we're storing grain.

1685
01:14:30.180 --> 01:14:32.760
It's not grain that would upset the band rules.

1686
01:14:32.819 --> 01:14:33.659
It's flour.

1687
01:14:33.720 --> 01:14:37.619
So it's a big it's a big hoo-ha over someone stealing flour.

1688
01:14:37.680 --> 01:14:39.659
And we're in the year 2540.

1689
01:14:39.960 --> 01:14:45.300
So we're 80 years after colony in space and we're, what, 500 years

1690
01:14:45.300 --> 01:14:47.039
or so before the mutants?

1691
01:14:47.100 --> 01:14:47.819
Yes.

1692
01:14:47.819 --> 01:14:50.819
So it's the Earth Empire at its height and we get a little bit of

1693
01:14:50.819 --> 01:14:52.439
a history lesson from Pertwee.

1694
01:14:52.500 --> 01:14:56.819
So it's the height of the sort of very 1st Earth Empire.

1695
01:14:56.880 --> 01:15:03.239
And our author is our resident, communist, lizard sympathiser

1696
01:15:03.239 --> 01:15:05.039
Malcolm Hulk.

1697
01:15:05.100 --> 01:15:06.300
Yes, hooray.

1698
01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:07.020
He's back again.

1699
01:15:07.140 --> 01:15:12.659
And that, along with that comes the wonderful characterisation he

1700
01:15:12.659 --> 01:15:13.380
always offers.

1701
01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:16.680
I always keep the cast lists for whatever stories we're discussing

1702
01:15:16.680 --> 01:15:17.279
in front of us.

1703
01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:20.159
And if we look at Carnival of Monsters, which we were just

1704
01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:22.739
discussing, It's about 10 speaking parts.

1705
01:15:23.100 --> 01:15:26.939
Looking down the castle list of frontier in space, I think there's

1706
01:15:26.939 --> 01:15:30.479
at least 30 actors here with speaking parts and actual dialogue.

1707
01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:32.880
Because it goes from place to place, doesn't it?

1708
01:15:32.939 --> 01:15:34.140
And so we get different people.

1709
01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:38.460
So in the 1st two, I guess it's the 1st episode is just the 2 guys

1710
01:15:38.460 --> 01:15:40.140
flying the cargo ship.

1711
01:15:40.199 --> 01:15:42.359
You know, like it's all very sort of small scale.

1712
01:15:42.420 --> 01:15:44.760
There's a bit of a sort of Star Trek vibe to it. they're in

1713
01:15:44.760 --> 01:15:45.840
hyperspace, aren't they?

1714
01:15:45.899 --> 01:15:49.319
When they encounter the TARDIS, and you can see that the

1715
01:15:49.319 --> 01:15:53.699
production crew by now has seen Star Trek. and so they sort of

1716
01:15:53.699 --> 01:15:56.340
Star Trek, absolutely. sort of elements to it.

1717
01:15:56.460 --> 01:16:00.539
And then we're moving back to Earth with the Earth president and

1718
01:16:00.539 --> 01:16:03.899
General Williams and the Draconian Prince.

1719
01:16:03.960 --> 01:16:05.159
He's great.

1720
01:16:05.220 --> 01:16:06.359
Isn't this great?

1721
01:16:06.420 --> 01:16:10.680
And this is the 1st time that we've seen Earth in the Pearl era as

1722
01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:10.859
well.

1723
01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:14.579
Ah, because we've always been off world, like we're on solos when

1724
01:16:14.579 --> 01:16:15.539
we were on Xaria.

1725
01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:16.260
So this is Earth.

1726
01:16:16.319 --> 01:16:19.680
Yeah, this is the 1st time we've been to the future of Earth since

1727
01:16:19.680 --> 01:16:21.359
the Seeds of Death in 1969.

1728
01:16:21.539 --> 01:16:23.399
I love the future of Earth.

1729
01:16:23.460 --> 01:16:24.180
We have a president.

1730
01:16:24.239 --> 01:16:25.319
She's fabulous.

1731
01:16:25.380 --> 01:16:26.579
She is great.

1732
01:16:26.640 --> 01:16:30.359
Yeah, she's got her secretary and then isn't there some other

1733
01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:31.380
woman doing a makeup?

1734
01:16:31.439 --> 01:16:32.819
Sheila. massages are.

1735
01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:35.159
She has lovely massage from Sheila at some point.

1736
01:16:35.220 --> 01:16:38.220
She's got like an orange frock and then like matching orange

1737
01:16:38.220 --> 01:16:41.699
lipstick and a sort of fabulous South African accent.

1738
01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:44.939
And, you know, then there's General Williams, who's sort of very

1739
01:16:44.939 --> 01:16:47.460
saturnine, has a big sort of collar and a sort of spock hair

1740
01:16:47.460 --> 01:16:47.939
cart.

1741
01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:49.560
And then there's the prints.

1742
01:16:49.619 --> 01:16:53.939
This is, I think, hitherto unscaled heights for Lizard Man in

1743
01:16:53.939 --> 01:16:56.939
Doctor Who, because he's a real character.

1744
01:16:57.000 --> 01:16:59.520
And we talked in the Silurians.

1745
01:16:59.579 --> 01:17:03.060
I thought that the Silurians were undermined by the fact that they

1746
01:17:03.060 --> 01:17:05.640
were just sort of rubberheads or voiced by Peter Halliday.

1747
01:17:05.699 --> 01:17:06.420
Do you know what I mean?

1748
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:09.960
Whereas here you've got this prince guy.

1749
01:17:10.020 --> 01:17:13.500
Now he's never been Doctor Who before or since, but he has great

1750
01:17:13.500 --> 01:17:14.579
teeth.

1751
01:17:14.939 --> 01:17:16.380
I think he'd be handsome.

1752
01:17:16.439 --> 01:17:20.340
I can't tell exactly, but so...

1753
01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:23.760
All of the costume and all the makeup, the one thing that you have

1754
01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:25.319
noticed is...

1755
01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:26.819
You can see his teeth.

1756
01:17:26.819 --> 01:17:30.659
Because they've, for the 1st time, they've hit upon this genius

1757
01:17:30.659 --> 01:17:35.340
idea and they'll, it'll become standard where you let the actor's

1758
01:17:35.340 --> 01:17:40.680
eyes and mouth be visible through holes in the rubber mask and you

1759
01:17:40.680 --> 01:17:43.199
make up the eyes and mouth to kind of match the rubber mask.

1760
01:17:43.260 --> 01:17:45.840
Now, they never quite manage that, the colours sort of slightly

1761
01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:46.079
different.

1762
01:17:46.140 --> 01:17:50.220
And poor old John Woodnuts, who is the emperor.

1763
01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:51.539
He has previously been...

1764
01:17:51.539 --> 01:17:53.399
Hibbert.

1765
01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:55.680
Yes, he's Hibbot.

1766
01:17:55.739 --> 01:17:57.720
Channing's thrall in the orders.

1767
01:17:57.779 --> 01:18:00.659
Yeah, yeah, in Spearhead from Space, and he'll, he'll later turn

1768
01:18:00.659 --> 01:18:09.539
up, obviously, as Broton, and, um, and, uh, um, and... and the

1769
01:18:09.539 --> 01:18:11.939
Duke, the Duke of whatever, for Gil.

1770
01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:12.600
Yeah.

1771
01:18:12.659 --> 01:18:14.460
Yeah, it says on. right.

1772
01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:16.739
With a press on beard in that terrible story.

1773
01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:20.640
And he's got a particularly bad upper lip, doesn't he, poor old

1774
01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:22.079
emperor?

1775
01:18:22.199 --> 01:18:26.760
You know, they don't get it completely right with the draconians

1776
01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:29.880
makeup, but there's a reason that poetry says that they're a

1777
01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:31.920
beautiful piece of work and I think that his favourite.

1778
01:18:31.979 --> 01:18:32.939
Yes, yes.

1779
01:18:33.000 --> 01:18:37.380
He does say they're his favourite because you can, because per we

1780
01:18:37.380 --> 01:18:42.539
as we've discussed before, he was much better when the ideas

1781
01:18:42.539 --> 01:18:44.699
behind his script were grounded in reality.

1782
01:18:44.819 --> 01:18:47.760
Now, the thing is, you might think this is a strange story to

1783
01:18:47.760 --> 01:18:52.260
refer as being grounded in reality, but if you take away, if you

1784
01:18:52.260 --> 01:18:54.840
take away the science fiction elements such as aliens and

1785
01:18:54.840 --> 01:18:57.659
spaceship, what you've basically got is a story about diplomacy

1786
01:18:57.659 --> 01:18:59.699
and day taunt and brinkmanship.

1787
01:18:59.819 --> 01:19:01.680
Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

1788
01:19:01.739 --> 01:19:04.680
Yeah, this is a story that could very easily have been told

1789
01:19:04.680 --> 01:19:07.140
without a science fiction setting, and I think those were the

1790
01:19:07.140 --> 01:19:10.140
stories that Pert we liked, and also because he could interact

1791
01:19:10.140 --> 01:19:11.460
with his fellow actors.

1792
01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:14.760
He gets a scene with the Draconian prince, where the Draconian

1793
01:19:14.760 --> 01:19:16.979
prince is trying to interrogate him for information he doesn't

1794
01:19:16.979 --> 01:19:17.819
have.

1795
01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:21.239
And again, it shows how far pert we's evolved because instead of

1796
01:19:21.239 --> 01:19:24.119
being all blustering, how dare you, how dare you imprison me like

1797
01:19:24.119 --> 01:19:27.119
this, he's very gentlemanly and just sort of sighs and says, look

1798
01:19:27.119 --> 01:19:28.739
I'm not a spy for anyone.

1799
01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:32.220
I don't know anything, but thank you very much.

1800
01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:33.479
This is a very comfortable chair.

1801
01:19:33.539 --> 01:19:34.800
Could you undo my handcuffs, please?

1802
01:19:34.859 --> 01:19:39.180
He is very respectful, respectful throughout this entire story.

1803
01:19:39.239 --> 01:19:42.300
You know, the whole performance is very different from 2 seasons

1804
01:19:42.300 --> 01:19:43.979
ago and it just would not have worked.

1805
01:19:44.039 --> 01:19:45.060
Yeah, he doesn't blust.

1806
01:19:45.119 --> 01:19:46.619
General Williams or anything.

1807
01:19:46.680 --> 01:19:48.300
Because he's got the keys to his car.

1808
01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:49.020
He get.'s happy.

1809
01:19:49.079 --> 01:19:50.220
It's really interesting.

1810
01:19:50.220 --> 01:19:51.180
He doesn't. lost it.

1811
01:19:51.479 --> 01:19:54.539
The Ogons come and take it in episode one.

1812
01:19:54.600 --> 01:19:56.939
I found it really interesting watching this story again.

1813
01:19:57.000 --> 01:20:00.479
The previous time I'd watched it. completely out of sequence.

1814
01:20:00.539 --> 01:20:02.760
And I try to watch it in one setting.

1815
01:20:02.819 --> 01:20:05.460
I didn't follow the pertree rule of like, you know, one episode

1816
01:20:05.460 --> 01:20:06.779
within the 6th party.

1817
01:20:06.779 --> 01:20:12.600
Yeah, and and you spoke about earlier, you know, on the

1818
01:20:12.600 --> 01:20:13.500
superficial level.

1819
01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:17.159
It's just, you know, capture escape, capture escape continually.

1820
01:20:17.220 --> 01:20:22.619
But it, you know, works on all these other levels. the diplomacy

1821
01:20:22.619 --> 01:20:27.000
element, the frustration of, you know, not being able to

1822
01:20:27.000 --> 01:20:29.520
communicate because of past histories and that sort of thing.

1823
01:20:29.579 --> 01:20:34.260
And I think the major strength in this story is all the scenes

1824
01:20:34.260 --> 01:20:39.600
with Joe and the doctor, or Joe, the doctor, and the master, the

1825
01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:42.659
regular crew in all of their situations throughout all the

1826
01:20:42.659 --> 01:20:43.079
episodes.

1827
01:20:43.140 --> 01:20:46.800
And yes, the capture escape things good because then you get, you

1828
01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:48.779
have to have the action at the end of the episode in the beginning

1829
01:20:48.779 --> 01:20:51.779
of the certain sort of in the middle episode is there, is there

1830
01:20:51.779 --> 01:20:55.920
either carted off to Earth or Dracurnia or to the moon or where to

1831
01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:56.819
ever it is this week.

1832
01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:03.060
The scenes with Katie and John are just beautiful, but I have to

1833
01:21:03.060 --> 01:21:07.140
say, it's the sequences with Roger and Katie in this story that

1834
01:21:07.140 --> 01:21:09.300
just blow my mind.

1835
01:21:09.359 --> 01:21:13.020
And it's so good because this is the 1st time they've really had a

1836
01:21:13.020 --> 01:21:14.760
lot of scenes together since her 1st story.

1837
01:21:14.819 --> 01:21:18.600
Like the 1st meeting, like when he comes to get her out of the

1838
01:21:18.600 --> 01:21:18.899
cell.

1839
01:21:18.960 --> 01:21:20.939
Any for them, Miss Grant?

1840
01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:21.659
Yeah, yeah.

1841
01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:25.560
I found myself just writing down hilarious quotable quotes from

1842
01:21:25.560 --> 01:21:25.979
the master.

1843
01:21:26.039 --> 01:21:29.939
My favourite thing is, Pertry's been sucked out the airlock much

1844
01:21:29.939 --> 01:21:33.779
to our relief and he's floating about in space.

1845
01:21:33.779 --> 01:21:38.699
And Joe's doing this sort of long improvised speech about how he

1846
01:21:38.699 --> 01:21:41.760
you know, how he should be more careful and stuff and he's richer

1847
01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:42.779
dying a bit. amazing.

1848
01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:44.100
It's wonderful.

1849
01:21:44.220 --> 01:21:48.060
And then Delcano comes in, he goes, thank you, Miss Grant. we'll

1850
01:21:48.060 --> 01:21:50.819
let you know It's so funny.

1851
01:21:50.880 --> 01:21:53.159
And there's a sense, look.

1852
01:21:53.279 --> 01:21:58.079
You know, in in a previous Hulk story, in colony in space, the

1853
01:21:58.079 --> 01:22:01.380
masters kind of wheeled on in episode 4 or something to kind of

1854
01:22:01.380 --> 01:22:04.380
prop up something that's sagging a little bit.

1855
01:22:04.439 --> 01:22:07.260
And he was foreshadowed in episode one.

1856
01:22:07.319 --> 01:22:09.899
We knew he was turning up, but we'd kind of forgotten by then.

1857
01:22:09.960 --> 01:22:11.640
Here he's a complete surprise.

1858
01:22:11.699 --> 01:22:16.199
But unfortunately, he's been tamed a little bit by now.

1859
01:22:16.260 --> 01:22:20.399
Perhaps those scenes, I agree with you, the scenes between Manning

1860
01:22:20.399 --> 01:22:25.260
and Delgado are such fun and so fantastic, but the master has been

1861
01:22:25.260 --> 01:22:27.119
defanged a little bit by this point.

1862
01:22:27.180 --> 01:22:31.260
See, I don't think that's a huge problem here because his plan is

1863
01:22:31.260 --> 01:22:36.239
so huge that he needs to be a bit more diplomatic and a bit

1864
01:22:36.239 --> 01:22:36.779
calmer.

1865
01:22:36.840 --> 01:22:42.119
And unlike pretty much every other story where he's kind of

1866
01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:45.359
expecting to run into the doctor, like all the earth-based stuff

1867
01:22:45.359 --> 01:22:48.359
he knows the doctor's going to turn up at some point, even colony

1868
01:22:48.359 --> 01:22:49.079
in space.

1869
01:22:49.140 --> 01:22:51.539
He's not that surprised that the time lords have sent the doctor

1870
01:22:51.539 --> 01:22:52.079
after him.

1871
01:22:52.140 --> 01:22:54.420
On this occasion, he's actually trying to do something by

1872
01:22:54.420 --> 01:22:55.020
himself.

1873
01:22:55.079 --> 01:22:58.380
And I think he's genuinely amused that the doctor and Joe just

1874
01:22:58.380 --> 01:23:00.720
happened to have turned up in the same time zone.

1875
01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:02.760
That scene though, where he picks her up.

1876
01:23:02.880 --> 01:23:08.520
Joe is just so wonderful and this is one of the 1st big scenes

1877
01:23:08.520 --> 01:23:12.239
where we see her development as a character because there is just

1878
01:23:12.239 --> 01:23:16.619
no fear in her at all that she is showing.

1879
01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:19.739
You know, I think it's under the surface and she knows that the

1880
01:23:19.739 --> 01:23:24.659
master is dangerous, but she is just so annoyed and so fed up that

1881
01:23:24.659 --> 01:23:27.539
she's just like, right, here is something from my world.

1882
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:32.039
You know, when a mass murdering psychopath, alien is from your

1883
01:23:32.039 --> 01:23:32.460
world.

1884
01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:34.859
That's that's questionable enough.

1885
01:23:34.859 --> 01:23:36.300
But here is something from my world.

1886
01:23:36.359 --> 01:23:39.180
I'm gonna take out my frustration now on you, mate.

1887
01:23:39.300 --> 01:23:42.239
But she's not scared the 1st time she meets the master.

1888
01:23:42.300 --> 01:23:43.619
That's the wonderful thing about it.

1889
01:23:43.680 --> 01:23:44.520
You know what I mean?

1890
01:23:44.579 --> 01:23:46.380
Like the 1st time she meets him in tear of the autumn.

1891
01:23:46.439 --> 01:23:49.500
She knocks the crate over and stands up really guiltily and goes

1892
01:23:49.500 --> 01:23:53.279
oops, you know, and like, so she's never really phased by the

1893
01:23:53.279 --> 01:23:53.640
master.

1894
01:23:53.699 --> 01:23:58.140
But by now he's he's sort of cartoonish and and we've probably

1895
01:23:58.140 --> 01:23:59.579
just about had enough of him.

1896
01:23:59.640 --> 01:24:03.960
And so having him sort of order the Ogons around and stuff.

1897
01:24:04.020 --> 01:24:07.380
You know, it's all just a little bit silly.

1898
01:24:07.439 --> 01:24:08.579
I think he's just having fun.

1899
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.880
I think he's having fun and I love the Ogons.

1900
01:24:11.939 --> 01:24:12.720
I think they're so funny.

1901
01:24:12.779 --> 01:24:16.020
You know, I came into this going, oh, 6 more episodes of Roger.

1902
01:24:16.079 --> 01:24:18.899
And then it was like 5 more episodes of Roger.

1903
01:24:18.899 --> 01:24:21.960
And I was like, well, there's only 4 more episodes of Roger.

1904
01:24:22.020 --> 01:24:26.819
I actually had to take a break to deal with the fact that I didn't

1905
01:24:26.819 --> 01:24:30.119
want to not see him on screen.

1906
01:24:31.680 --> 01:24:37.079
The last episode with him and Katie, where Joe, where she resists

1907
01:24:37.079 --> 01:24:41.340
on 2 occasions, his attempts at hypnosis.

1908
01:24:41.399 --> 01:24:45.119
It's not quite that because she resists them in episode five.

1909
01:24:45.180 --> 01:24:49.260
Do you remember by going, he's hypnotising her and she does the

1910
01:24:49.260 --> 01:24:52.619
nursery rhymes and she says it doesn't work on me anymore.

1911
01:24:52.680 --> 01:24:56.699
And then there's that brilliant cliffhanger to episode 5 where he

1912
01:24:56.699 --> 01:25:00.779
holds up the hypno sound thing and says, it works directly on the

1913
01:25:00.779 --> 01:25:05.039
fear centres deep in your mind and the camera pulls focus and

1914
01:25:05.039 --> 01:25:06.239
that's the cliffhanger.

1915
01:25:06.300 --> 01:25:07.979
It's so effective and so wonderful.

1916
01:25:08.039 --> 01:25:11.159
And the 2 of them, when they're on the ogre on planet, are

1917
01:25:11.159 --> 01:25:12.239
terrific together, aren't they?

1918
01:25:12.300 --> 01:25:16.380
Look, that was the joy for me in this story, their performances

1919
01:25:16.380 --> 01:25:17.279
and his performance.

1920
01:25:17.340 --> 01:25:18.779
You know, that's what kept it going.

1921
01:25:18.899 --> 01:25:23.100
You know, the shots of John outside the spaceship in that

1922
01:25:23.100 --> 01:25:26.460
spacesuit with the string cord line.

1923
01:25:26.579 --> 01:25:28.859
They're in hyperspace.

1924
01:25:28.920 --> 01:25:30.960
It's like, are you for real?

1925
01:25:31.020 --> 01:25:34.020
It is really, it's, they're not Kirby Wise is actually attached to

1926
01:25:34.020 --> 01:25:35.159
the spaceship by a string.

1927
01:25:35.220 --> 01:25:37.020
It's a thing, it's space protocol.

1928
01:25:37.079 --> 01:25:37.500
Right.

1929
01:25:37.920 --> 01:25:39.600
And the space music goes with that?

1930
01:25:39.659 --> 01:25:41.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1931
01:25:41.399 --> 01:25:44.159
It's actually mandatory, so you know there's someone outside the

1932
01:25:44.159 --> 01:25:44.640
spaceship.

1933
01:25:44.699 --> 01:25:47.579
It is a callback to the space pirates where they just do that over

1934
01:25:47.579 --> 01:25:49.739
and over again, the same footage, you know.

1935
01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:52.680
Can I talk?

1936
01:25:52.680 --> 01:25:57.239
We need your costume and the costumes of the Earth guards.

1937
01:25:57.300 --> 01:25:59.159
They have these sort of like, it's like they're going to go out

1938
01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:02.760
and do rollerblading or go, you know, before they're padding and

1939
01:26:02.760 --> 01:26:04.199
on their hands and the arms and that.

1940
01:26:04.260 --> 01:26:08.279
It's a nomination for the Jenny Lairder world.

1941
01:26:08.340 --> 01:26:10.859
I actually really, really like that.

1942
01:26:10.920 --> 01:26:11.579
They're stupid.

1943
01:26:11.640 --> 01:26:15.840
Well, the thing is, the helmets seem to be based on wrestling head

1944
01:26:15.840 --> 01:26:16.260
covers.

1945
01:26:16.380 --> 01:26:20.460
The idea being you wear one of those and no one can no one can

1946
01:26:20.460 --> 01:26:21.239
accidentally grab your ear.

1947
01:26:21.300 --> 01:26:24.359
Oh, I had forgotten that you actually do wrestling.

1948
01:26:24.420 --> 01:26:26.520
This is why you are so enamoured of them.

1949
01:26:26.579 --> 01:26:28.020
Well, but what's happening?

1950
01:26:28.079 --> 01:26:30.840
Like, you're flying a spaceship through hyperspace and you've got

1951
01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:35.159
to just keep your ears kind of... people grabbing your ears.

1952
01:26:35.220 --> 01:26:37.619
Most of the people who wear them are guards, and this is a world

1953
01:26:37.619 --> 01:26:40.020
where we're having riots because of food shortages.

1954
01:26:40.079 --> 01:26:42.180
Oh, we should talk politics.

1955
01:26:42.300 --> 01:26:45.899
I do like the fact that they're involving the whole world and you

1956
01:26:45.899 --> 01:26:48.779
see broadcasts on the screen and that sort of thing.

1957
01:26:48.840 --> 01:26:52.079
The leader of the opposition is sort of a southern American

1958
01:26:52.079 --> 01:26:55.500
redneck who's yelling about going to war against foreigners and

1959
01:26:55.500 --> 01:26:55.680
stuff.

1960
01:26:55.739 --> 01:26:58.079
Well, you know, they go up to the moon.

1961
01:26:58.079 --> 01:27:01.439
And it's great to see that you've got political prisoners that are

1962
01:27:01.439 --> 01:27:06.300
women and not, it's not all, you know, Anglo-Saxon white.

1963
01:27:06.359 --> 01:27:07.500
Yeah, you know, like that too.

1964
01:27:07.560 --> 01:27:10.020
Patel, who's the young Indian guy.

1965
01:27:10.199 --> 01:27:14.159
And again, you know how we've said that Pertuis starts off seeming

1966
01:27:14.159 --> 01:27:16.920
like a bit of a Tory, but pretty soon in his sympathising

1967
01:27:16.920 --> 01:27:20.579
automatically with progressive causes, and he gives the peace

1968
01:27:20.579 --> 01:27:23.279
party sign to Patel as he sort of walks off.

1969
01:27:23.279 --> 01:27:27.359
And he sort of instantly allies with them and Patel recognises him

1970
01:27:27.359 --> 01:27:30.720
and Professor Dale as well, like he falls in with them straight

1971
01:27:30.720 --> 01:27:31.199
away.

1972
01:27:31.260 --> 01:27:34.979
And it is the Hulk thing that we saw in colony in space where

1973
01:27:34.979 --> 01:27:37.979
despite the fact that they have a fabulous president.

1974
01:27:38.039 --> 01:27:41.579
They have a totalitarian kind of government, you know, where

1975
01:27:41.579 --> 01:27:44.939
political prisoners are shipped off to the moon without trial for

1976
01:27:44.939 --> 01:27:46.800
the rest of their lives and that kind of thing.

1977
01:27:46.859 --> 01:27:49.380
So the government is still kind of scary.

1978
01:27:49.739 --> 01:27:54.119
It's great to see John also out of his doctor costume when he's up

1979
01:27:54.119 --> 01:27:54.479
in the moon.

1980
01:27:54.539 --> 01:27:58.020
He has to, you know, change into a political prisoner robe, which

1981
01:27:58.020 --> 01:28:00.720
I always like seeing the doctor, you know, not just in their

1982
01:28:00.720 --> 01:28:01.140
costume.

1983
01:28:01.199 --> 01:28:06.359
Katie, of course, gets to change into that wonderful black sort of

1984
01:28:06.359 --> 01:28:07.920
karate outfit.

1985
01:28:07.979 --> 01:28:10.079
And what does John say when she turns up?

1986
01:28:10.140 --> 01:28:11.819
Who are you fighting tonight?

1987
01:28:12.539 --> 01:28:14.640
Is that her best outfit?

1988
01:28:14.699 --> 01:28:15.659
I love it.

1989
01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:16.859
I love that costume.

1990
01:28:16.920 --> 01:28:18.300
It could well be my favourite.

1991
01:28:18.359 --> 01:28:21.779
I mean, hey, you know, when she was all dollied up back in Curse

1992
01:28:21.779 --> 01:28:24.840
of Peloton, that's, you know, that frog's pretty good too.

1993
01:28:24.899 --> 01:28:30.000
And I like, and I like, you know, the 3 doctors won and I like, I

1994
01:28:30.000 --> 01:28:31.560
like what she's wearing in the next story.

1995
01:28:31.619 --> 01:28:32.880
Yeah, yeah.

1996
01:28:33.060 --> 01:28:37.260
That's a really nice suit, but we're getting ahead of ourselves, of

1997
01:28:37.260 --> 01:28:37.439
course.

1998
01:28:37.500 --> 01:28:39.060
Can we talk about the end?

1999
01:28:39.119 --> 01:28:41.460
Well, I want to talk about the Draconia Society.

2000
01:28:41.520 --> 01:28:46.199
Something that slightly irritated me was that we're in the

2001
01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:47.939
Draconian Great Hall or whatever.

2002
01:28:48.000 --> 01:28:53.460
And of course, females are not permitted to speak, and I just

2003
01:28:53.460 --> 01:28:57.180
wanted to throw something at the television at that and I thought

2004
01:28:57.180 --> 01:29:01.500
oh, look, we've seen this before in curse of peladin.

2005
01:29:01.560 --> 01:29:04.979
The positive of it is that Joe comes up with a lot of good

2006
01:29:04.979 --> 01:29:06.960
observations, which makes the men think.

2007
01:29:07.020 --> 01:29:08.100
So that's a really good positive.

2008
01:29:08.159 --> 01:29:12.239
I guess you don't see any women draconians, but I'm thinking that

2009
01:29:12.239 --> 01:29:16.319
to do the costumes for those, you might be looking at, like, doing

2010
01:29:16.319 --> 01:29:18.779
something like Lurstrom Bay tour from Star Trek, the Next

2011
01:29:18.779 --> 01:29:23.640
Generation, or Ingrid Pitt, and her sort of bosom-y bosom is from

2012
01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:24.840
the previous season.

2013
01:29:24.899 --> 01:29:26.520
And I don't think they could possibly afford that.

2014
01:29:26.579 --> 01:29:30.180
And of course, remember all the fasts, cold blood and the hungry

2015
01:29:30.180 --> 01:29:34.680
earth, when you had Niamh McIntosh play Silurians for the 1st time

2016
01:29:34.680 --> 01:29:37.439
and what was one of the main topics of discussion on Doctor Who

2017
01:29:37.439 --> 01:29:38.100
Message boards?

2018
01:29:38.159 --> 01:29:40.500
She is a lizard, why does she have breasts?

2019
01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:43.020
Because guess what?

2020
01:29:43.079 --> 01:29:44.279
There's an actress in there.

2021
01:29:44.340 --> 01:29:45.840
It's Nieve.

2022
01:29:45.899 --> 01:29:46.439
She a mammal.

2023
01:29:46.560 --> 01:29:51.060
I'd just like to talk about the influence this story has had

2024
01:29:51.060 --> 01:29:51.899
moving forward.

2025
01:29:51.960 --> 01:29:58.140
This is possibly Malcolm Hawke's best political story because he

2026
01:29:58.140 --> 01:30:00.960
creates a whole political system and he creates a whole political

2027
01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:06.899
climate that's recognisable as based in our world and the ideas of

2028
01:30:06.899 --> 01:30:10.619
Dayton diplomacy, but manages to be a big space opera as well.

2029
01:30:10.680 --> 01:30:15.659
Moving forward into the um, into the early 90s, but even before

2030
01:30:15.659 --> 01:30:19.859
that, Joe Michael Strazinsky, uh, developed a series called

2031
01:30:19.859 --> 01:30:20.579
Babylon 5.

2032
01:30:20.819 --> 01:30:23.159
I've never heard of it I refuse to watch it.

2033
01:30:23.279 --> 01:30:26.399
Before it came to air on television.

2034
01:30:26.460 --> 01:30:30.779
He'd spent about 15 years developing it And in his commentaries on

2035
01:30:30.779 --> 01:30:34.859
the DVDs, he does talk about the influences on his series.

2036
01:30:35.039 --> 01:30:39.359
And one of the influences it particularly mentions is Doctor Who.

2037
01:30:39.420 --> 01:30:43.500
And he discusses, I was strongly influenced by a particular story

2038
01:30:43.500 --> 01:30:49.319
for the background between 2 of the races in Babylon 5.

2039
01:30:49.500 --> 01:30:50.640
Babylon 5 starts off.

2040
01:30:50.699 --> 01:30:54.779
There are 5 major races and a lot of minor races, and they are

2041
01:30:54.779 --> 01:30:57.960
working together towards a peace and a sort of federation, if you

2042
01:30:57.960 --> 01:30:58.199
like.

2043
01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:02.579
The 2 major races who have bankrolled this space station as a

2044
01:31:02.579 --> 01:31:05.939
negotiation area, the humans and the Minbari, have just come out

2045
01:31:05.939 --> 01:31:07.560
of a long interstellar war.

2046
01:31:07.859 --> 01:31:10.619
Which was started because.

2047
01:31:10.619 --> 01:31:17.819
The Minbari tradition was to arrive at negotiations with gun ports

2048
01:31:17.819 --> 01:31:20.939
open and weapons at the Ready as a show of strength at saying we

2049
01:31:20.939 --> 01:31:24.359
have an open hand, which is exactly how the war starts here.

2050
01:31:24.420 --> 01:31:26.340
It's not a great tradition, is it?

2051
01:31:26.399 --> 01:31:28.979
It is a tradition that is fairly open to kind of

2052
01:31:28.979 --> 01:31:29.699
misinterpretation.

2053
01:31:29.819 --> 01:31:33.119
And in this, like episode five, suddenly the prince and the

2054
01:31:33.119 --> 01:31:36.180
general have this conversation about, you know, 20 years ago, why

2055
01:31:36.180 --> 01:31:39.720
did you turn up with, you know, your gunship and, you know, they

2056
01:31:39.720 --> 01:31:43.380
finally have a conversation about why everything is happening and

2057
01:31:43.380 --> 01:31:44.699
why they mistrust each other.

2058
01:31:44.760 --> 01:31:47.279
You know, if they'd had that conversation 20 years ago, well we

2059
01:31:47.279 --> 01:31:48.779
wouldn't be having this story now, would we?

2060
01:31:48.840 --> 01:31:52.319
Yeah, I think I actually think that that does hit upon a floor in

2061
01:31:52.319 --> 01:31:56.399
the story, which is that we all know in episode one what's going

2062
01:31:56.399 --> 01:31:56.699
on.

2063
01:31:56.760 --> 01:32:00.479
The 2 parties are accusing each other of the same thing, but

2064
01:32:00.479 --> 01:32:05.100
neither of them kind of twigs or anything, and it takes us to

2065
01:32:05.100 --> 01:32:08.699
episode 5 before everyone is sort of on the same page as us.

2066
01:32:08.819 --> 01:32:13.079
Well, I think it's because going back to that, going back to the

2067
01:32:13.079 --> 01:32:17.399
catalyst for the war, both sides think the other side is lying

2068
01:32:17.399 --> 01:32:19.739
right from the start, right from their 1st negotiation with each

2069
01:32:19.739 --> 01:32:20.039
other.

2070
01:32:20.100 --> 01:32:22.199
So why shouldn't they think they're lying now?

2071
01:32:22.260 --> 01:32:25.979
It's really a great comment on racism and prejudice from Malcolm

2072
01:32:25.979 --> 01:32:26.399
Hawk?

2073
01:32:26.460 --> 01:32:29.039
And he does it without a lot of soap boxing?

2074
01:32:29.100 --> 01:32:32.100
By this point in Doctor Who, I think he is the most thoughtful

2075
01:32:32.100 --> 01:32:35.039
writer Doctor Who has, and he really thinks about what he's

2076
01:32:35.039 --> 01:32:35.880
putting into his stories.

2077
01:32:35.939 --> 01:32:41.640
I think it's great that a story he wrote in 1973, 20 years later

2078
01:32:41.640 --> 01:32:45.659
influences the science fiction series, which Major Barrett

2079
01:32:45.659 --> 01:32:49.920
Roddenbury, then widow of Gene Roddenbury, creator of Star Trek

2080
01:32:49.920 --> 01:32:55.140
with DS9 and Voyager on the air as well, said that Babylon 5 is

2081
01:32:55.140 --> 01:32:57.300
the most intelligent science fiction series on television.

2082
01:32:57.359 --> 01:33:01.500
No, the woman, obviously, has got...

2083
01:33:01.560 --> 01:33:05.340
She was losing it because I would say with Deep Space 9 and, you

2084
01:33:05.340 --> 01:33:06.840
know, I'm a Deep Space 9 fan.

2085
01:33:06.899 --> 01:33:08.279
So, you know, we go with that.

2086
01:33:08.340 --> 01:33:13.319
I wanna talk about General Williams. how dishy he is.

2087
01:33:13.380 --> 01:33:16.020
You've taken the word side, Adam.

2088
01:33:16.079 --> 01:33:19.619
Look, they've had they've tried it with Bill Filer.

2089
01:33:19.680 --> 01:33:21.300
They tried it with Captain Yates.

2090
01:33:21.359 --> 01:33:22.800
They tried it with Hippias.

2091
01:33:22.859 --> 01:33:24.779
General Williams, it's getting better.

2092
01:33:24.840 --> 01:33:25.979
That's the same people.

2093
01:33:26.039 --> 01:33:30.359
When we get to the end of the Pertuy era, they really score 2

2094
01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:32.579
episodes from the end and I'm not saying anything more.

2095
01:33:33.180 --> 01:33:37.500
There's a fairly handsome kind of cargo captain guy in the 1st

2096
01:33:37.500 --> 01:33:38.039
episode.

2097
01:33:38.100 --> 01:33:40.680
Yeah, the one who looks like George Layton.

2098
01:33:40.739 --> 01:33:43.739
I don't know who that is Never mind.

2099
01:33:43.800 --> 01:33:48.960
And of course, Frontier in Space is one of 2 stories, which was

2100
01:33:48.960 --> 01:33:52.439
accidentally shipped to Australia with the attempted new version

2101
01:33:52.439 --> 01:33:58.500
of the theme, known as the Delaware theme, the sort of...

2102
01:33:58.619 --> 01:33:59.880
I actually can't remember it.

2103
01:33:59.939 --> 01:34:01.859
And none of my copies have it.

2104
01:34:01.920 --> 01:34:04.199
I think it's an optional extra on the DVD.

2105
01:34:04.260 --> 01:34:06.000
It's an optional extra on the DVD.

2106
01:34:06.060 --> 01:34:09.720
It was included on the VHS release of Carnival of Monsters.

2107
01:34:09.779 --> 01:34:15.359
Australia got the original extended edit of episode two, which has

2108
01:34:15.359 --> 01:34:18.840
about 5 minutes more footage, so it's roughly a 30 minute

2109
01:34:18.840 --> 01:34:19.319
episode.

2110
01:34:19.380 --> 01:34:22.319
But it is a special feature on the DVD.

2111
01:34:22.380 --> 01:34:27.720
It was the 1st attempt really to completely redo the thing.

2112
01:34:27.779 --> 01:34:31.680
Until now the theme had been added to, but it was still the same

2113
01:34:31.680 --> 01:34:36.840
basic track as had been created for Hartnell at the very start.

2114
01:34:36.899 --> 01:34:38.939
So this was 10th anniversary.

2115
01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:40.079
Let's do a new version of the theme.

2116
01:34:40.140 --> 01:34:42.779
We've got this great new synthesiser that creates strange and

2117
01:34:42.779 --> 01:34:43.560
wonderful sounds.

2118
01:34:43.619 --> 01:34:44.039
Well use that.

2119
01:34:44.100 --> 01:34:46.260
Oh, it can only do one track at a time.

2120
01:34:46.319 --> 01:34:49.439
So to do a multi-tracked version.

2121
01:34:49.500 --> 01:34:53.340
They did a stereo version of this theme, even though, you know, I

2122
01:34:53.340 --> 01:34:56.279
don't think any television was being broadcast in stereo at the

2123
01:34:56.279 --> 01:34:58.380
time in the UK, possibly BBC 2.

2124
01:34:58.560 --> 01:35:00.960
No, come on, not in 1973.

2125
01:35:01.140 --> 01:35:01.739
No.

2126
01:35:01.800 --> 01:35:07.319
I think stereo even comes to actual Doctor Who until McCoy or

2127
01:35:07.319 --> 01:35:07.500
something.

2128
01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:10.800
Yeah, season 25 is the 1st Doctor Who in stereo.

2129
01:35:10.859 --> 01:35:13.140
I just think it's it's just awful.

2130
01:35:13.199 --> 01:35:15.960
And, you know, Barry went with it.

2131
01:35:16.020 --> 01:35:17.100
You know, he wanted it.

2132
01:35:17.159 --> 01:35:21.000
And it was other people who said, no, this cannot be.

2133
01:35:21.060 --> 01:35:22.199
Thank goodness.

2134
01:35:22.260 --> 01:35:24.119
Oh, I have to listen to it again.

2135
01:35:24.239 --> 01:35:25.800
When we stop recording, I'm going to listen.

2136
01:35:25.859 --> 01:35:30.000
It makes Dominic Glynn's version of 1986 look like a Grammy Award

2137
01:35:30.000 --> 01:35:30.359
winner.

2138
01:35:30.420 --> 01:35:31.800
I can watch Dominic wins.

2139
01:35:31.859 --> 01:35:35.279
I do, but you know where I'm going with this.

2140
01:35:35.340 --> 01:35:37.979
I'm nominating it for Johnny Laird.

2141
01:35:38.039 --> 01:35:39.239
What a nomination.

2142
01:35:39.359 --> 01:35:42.720
You're nominating every creative choice this season for a Jenny

2143
01:35:42.720 --> 01:35:43.439
Land Award.

2144
01:35:43.500 --> 01:35:45.420
It's a really good season, Todd.

2145
01:35:45.479 --> 01:35:52.739
I think it is a very enjoyable fun season. puzzling creative

2146
01:35:52.739 --> 01:35:53.039
choices.

2147
01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:55.500
But there are puzzling creative choices all the way through, the

2148
01:35:55.500 --> 01:35:56.460
1970s.

2149
01:35:56.520 --> 01:35:58.020
There's a few other things in this story.

2150
01:35:58.079 --> 01:36:01.260
Joe mentions women's lib.

2151
01:36:01.319 --> 01:36:03.359
I think it's the 1st time she actually mentions that in episode

2152
01:36:03.359 --> 01:36:04.079
five.

2153
01:36:04.140 --> 01:36:06.960
Well, she says, haven't they heard of women's leave in the

2154
01:36:06.960 --> 01:36:07.859
Draconian...

2155
01:36:07.979 --> 01:36:09.060
Yeah, it's interesting.

2156
01:36:09.119 --> 01:36:14.100
I mean, obviously women's be with in the Time Monster doesn't...

2157
01:36:14.159 --> 01:36:16.680
Yeah, yeah, that it gets named...

2158
01:36:16.739 --> 01:36:19.619
So, you know, there's certainly this thought process going on with

2159
01:36:19.619 --> 01:36:25.140
Terence and Barry and, of course, influence, you know, next year.

2160
01:36:25.199 --> 01:36:29.880
Stephen Thorne and Michael Kilgara are both Ogrons in this story?

2161
01:36:29.939 --> 01:36:30.239
Yes.

2162
01:36:30.300 --> 01:36:31.020
Yes, yeah.

2163
01:36:31.079 --> 01:36:33.659
Do they go, we are following them.

2164
01:36:33.779 --> 01:36:35.159
We are on this course.

2165
01:36:35.220 --> 01:36:40.560
Which one of the one is the, which one of them is the Ogron in the

2166
01:36:40.560 --> 01:36:43.500
worst cliffhanger in the entire Purtle year?

2167
01:36:43.560 --> 01:36:45.600
I think that's Michael Kilgariff.

2168
01:36:45.659 --> 01:36:50.159
So he's sitting in a chair, a cliffhanger, cut two, Ogron sitting

2169
01:36:50.159 --> 01:36:53.399
in a chair watching the television, crash bang into the credits.

2170
01:36:53.460 --> 01:36:53.880
Yes.

2171
01:36:53.939 --> 01:36:56.100
My name is just before that because I remember thinking...

2172
01:36:56.100 --> 01:36:59.039
The master sets off a homing beacon so the Ogrons can follow him.

2173
01:36:59.159 --> 01:37:00.479
So I've got in my notes here.

2174
01:37:00.600 --> 01:37:02.039
So the Ogons are on the way.

2175
01:37:02.100 --> 01:37:03.119
Cliffhanger.

2176
01:37:03.180 --> 01:37:04.739
But I mean, it's so undramatic.

2177
01:37:04.800 --> 01:37:08.039
Cotton, I think, saying we're all done for is probably worse.

2178
01:37:08.039 --> 01:37:09.239
Yeah, yeah.

2179
01:37:09.300 --> 01:37:10.979
I mean, that one has bad acting.

2180
01:37:11.039 --> 01:37:12.119
This one doesn't even have acting.

2181
01:37:12.180 --> 01:37:13.680
No, it's just got sitting in a chair.

2182
01:37:13.800 --> 01:37:16.380
You know, I don't I don't think he even knew they were filming.

2183
01:37:17.279 --> 01:37:20.939
I get the impression that Michael could kill Garof did a fair

2184
01:37:20.939 --> 01:37:24.539
amount of sitting in a chair if his appearance in Attack of the

2185
01:37:24.539 --> 01:37:26.039
Sidemen is any indication.

2186
01:37:26.159 --> 01:37:30.720
But I do like at the end how that world is left and General

2187
01:37:30.720 --> 01:37:33.300
Williams and the Prince have to go back and deal with everything.

2188
01:37:33.359 --> 01:37:34.739
It's open-ended.

2189
01:37:34.800 --> 01:37:36.119
That story continues.

2190
01:37:36.180 --> 01:37:39.960
And you don't actually see like a nice little bow tied up.

2191
01:37:40.020 --> 01:37:43.380
And that follows that sort of fairly open structure where it is

2192
01:37:43.380 --> 01:37:44.819
just a bunch of things that have happened.

2193
01:37:44.880 --> 01:37:46.800
And so we do bow out before a resolution.

2194
01:37:46.859 --> 01:37:48.899
And we know that a resolution's set up.

2195
01:37:48.960 --> 01:37:49.800
We know that it's possible.

2196
01:37:49.859 --> 01:37:52.619
We know that the Prince and General Williams are going back to

2197
01:37:52.619 --> 01:37:55.319
present evidence, God knows what evidence.

2198
01:37:55.380 --> 01:37:56.220
What are they taking anyway?

2199
01:37:56.279 --> 01:37:57.840
It doesn't matter. taking that creature.

2200
01:37:58.079 --> 01:37:59.760
The creature.

2201
01:37:59.760 --> 01:38:01.199
Scroto the magnificent.

2202
01:38:01.260 --> 01:38:02.699
It's called a scrotoid.

2203
01:38:03.359 --> 01:38:04.800
Really?

2204
01:38:04.800 --> 01:38:08.100
Yeah, that's the official sort of Linnaean classification of it.

2205
01:38:08.159 --> 01:38:13.140
And it's the thing that really ruins the whole ending of the

2206
01:38:13.140 --> 01:38:14.039
entire story.

2207
01:38:14.100 --> 01:38:20.220
So in dialogue, I think it's a large and savage reptile is the

2208
01:38:20.220 --> 01:38:21.600
dominant life form on this planet.

2209
01:38:21.659 --> 01:38:26.460
And Doctor Who, this is a Mac Hulk story, of course, it has large

2210
01:38:26.460 --> 01:38:27.840
and savage reptiles in it.

2211
01:38:27.899 --> 01:38:32.640
And we can be in no doubt at this stage that the Doctor Who

2212
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:36.539
production team would be a wizard creating a large and savage

2213
01:38:36.539 --> 01:38:38.760
reptile convincingly for the screen, wouldn't they?

2214
01:38:38.939 --> 01:38:40.560
That would be awesome.

2215
01:38:40.619 --> 01:38:41.520
Oh, yes.

2216
01:38:41.579 --> 01:38:44.819
Certainly next year, they do a bang.

2217
01:38:44.819 --> 01:38:46.140
Oh, magnificent.

2218
01:38:46.199 --> 01:38:51.119
But instead they had this sort of wobbling scrotoid slug thing.

2219
01:38:51.239 --> 01:38:54.180
And we 1st see we see Ogron worshipping it.

2220
01:38:54.779 --> 01:38:56.880
There's a painting on the wall.

2221
01:38:56.939 --> 01:39:01.020
And then it comes and wobbles on the top of a cliff.

2222
01:39:01.079 --> 01:39:03.779
I quite like that and they all go, oh, the creature and run away.

2223
01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:05.699
I was laughing my head off and said, oh, that's great.

2224
01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:07.140
This was used in that little bit.

2225
01:39:07.140 --> 01:39:08.520
It's the monster.

2226
01:39:08.579 --> 01:39:09.720
Oh, the monster, sorry.

2227
01:39:09.779 --> 01:39:13.560
But it's there for like the briefest number of seconds because the

2228
01:39:13.560 --> 01:39:14.760
director really hates it.

2229
01:39:14.819 --> 01:39:15.359
Yeah.

2230
01:39:15.359 --> 01:39:19.439
And then when we go into the sort of bass, there's Joe and the

2231
01:39:19.439 --> 01:39:22.739
doctor there, they talk a little bit about the painting.

2232
01:39:22.800 --> 01:39:25.859
And so you think, well, that's clearly setting it up for a big

2233
01:39:25.859 --> 01:39:26.699
final appearance.

2234
01:39:26.760 --> 01:39:30.840
The big final appearance is the doctor turns on the hypno sound

2235
01:39:30.840 --> 01:39:33.539
ray thing to scare the ogons off.

2236
01:39:33.600 --> 01:39:36.300
And the Ogons go, ooh, the monster.

2237
01:39:36.359 --> 01:39:40.020
And then there's this sudden inexplicable and you go, what the

2238
01:39:40.020 --> 01:39:40.680
hell has happened?

2239
01:39:40.800 --> 01:39:44.340
Yeah, something sets off the master's blaster, which hits the

2240
01:39:44.340 --> 01:39:45.899
doctor in the head and he's unconscious.

2241
01:39:45.960 --> 01:39:48.060
And then every everyone's gone in about 2 seconds.

2242
01:39:48.359 --> 01:39:52.739
It's very strange and it's clearly the director has just edited

2243
01:39:52.739 --> 01:39:55.979
out, is he edited out the final appearance of the scroto?

2244
01:39:56.039 --> 01:39:57.180
No, he didn't actually film it.

2245
01:39:57.239 --> 01:40:00.659
I think he refused to and just did it as a shot of them running

2246
01:40:00.659 --> 01:40:03.359
away from an unseen monster.

2247
01:40:03.420 --> 01:40:07.560
And I think Barry and Terence said, this is not dramatic enough to

2248
01:40:07.560 --> 01:40:10.500
Cliffhanger into the Dalek story.

2249
01:40:10.560 --> 01:40:12.539
So they got David Maloney back.

2250
01:40:12.600 --> 01:40:15.600
Well, he's going forward because he's going to do the next...

2251
01:40:15.720 --> 01:40:19.680
When the story starts, they restaged that sequence so that because

2252
01:40:19.680 --> 01:40:22.199
the doctor could stumble into the Tartar and send a message and

2253
01:40:22.199 --> 01:40:23.880
collapse, which is then tagged onto the end.

2254
01:40:23.939 --> 01:40:27.539
But what the hell happens to the master?

2255
01:40:27.659 --> 01:40:29.220
Yes, yeah.

2256
01:40:29.279 --> 01:40:33.239
The novelisation does a much better job where, you know, the Ogons

2257
01:40:33.239 --> 01:40:33.659
aren't there.

2258
01:40:33.720 --> 01:40:37.439
It doesn't have the attack of the scrotoid, the imagined attack of

2259
01:40:37.439 --> 01:40:38.220
the scrotoid.

2260
01:40:38.279 --> 01:40:42.840
What it has is the master realises that General Williams and the

2261
01:40:42.840 --> 01:40:49.140
prince had escaped and he just kind of says, well, I guess this

2262
01:40:49.140 --> 01:40:49.920
plan may not work.

2263
01:40:49.979 --> 01:40:50.760
I've got what I want.

2264
01:40:50.819 --> 01:40:52.859
I can't remember what he wanted, but he's like, I've got what I

2265
01:40:52.859 --> 01:40:53.039
want.

2266
01:40:53.100 --> 01:40:54.359
You know, I've created a bit of chaos.

2267
01:40:54.420 --> 01:40:56.159
I'm gonna go off and do my own thing now.

2268
01:40:56.220 --> 01:41:01.500
And he kind of lets the doctor and Joe go and it means that Roger

2269
01:41:01.500 --> 01:41:02.520
Delgado's master.

2270
01:41:02.520 --> 01:41:05.699
And I think this is because the book was written after the fact of

2271
01:41:05.699 --> 01:41:07.439
this very untimely death.

2272
01:41:07.500 --> 01:41:11.520
It gives the master an ending where he just sort of packs away his

2273
01:41:11.520 --> 01:41:15.960
things and moves on to his next plan, you know, and it's a far

2274
01:41:15.960 --> 01:41:17.340
more, it's a far more fitting end.

2275
01:41:17.399 --> 01:41:19.979
Yeah, of course, at the time they didn't know this would be the

2276
01:41:19.979 --> 01:41:20.760
end of the master.

2277
01:41:20.819 --> 01:41:23.039
They were planning one more appearance for him, where they would

2278
01:41:23.039 --> 01:41:24.300
have written out the character.

2279
01:41:24.359 --> 01:41:28.920
Yeah, it's just a shame that his final appearance is such a, you

2280
01:41:28.920 --> 01:41:32.039
know, it starts off as a, oh, my dear doctor, I'm going to

2281
01:41:32.039 --> 01:41:34.560
confront you scene and then just descends into madness.

2282
01:41:35.039 --> 01:41:42.300
He dies just after episode 5 of the green death airs. is when the

2283
01:41:42.300 --> 01:41:42.899
accident happens.

2284
01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:47.220
So they would have just finished filming the time warrior, wouldn't

2285
01:41:47.220 --> 01:41:47.340
they?

2286
01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:49.199
Because that was filmed at the end of this season.

2287
01:41:49.260 --> 01:41:49.739
Okay.

2288
01:41:49.739 --> 01:41:50.159
Yeah.

2289
01:41:50.220 --> 01:41:51.000
Yeah, yeah.

2290
01:41:51.060 --> 01:41:54.600
Yeah, it was it was between the production blocks.

2291
01:41:54.720 --> 01:41:57.840
So they had a plan to bring him back for the Pertui finale.

2292
01:41:57.899 --> 01:41:59.520
Did they know Pertwee was leaving already?

2293
01:41:59.579 --> 01:42:00.600
They didn't know Pertwe was leaving.

2294
01:42:00.659 --> 01:42:02.640
They had a plan to bring him back for the finale of the next

2295
01:42:02.640 --> 01:42:02.939
season.

2296
01:42:03.000 --> 01:42:03.720
Right.

2297
01:42:03.720 --> 01:42:08.819
Pert, we had was considering leaving during production of The Time

2298
01:42:08.819 --> 01:42:12.539
Warrior, but he didn't decide to until the Monster of Peladin.

2299
01:42:12.600 --> 01:42:14.460
Yeah, well, I'm not surprised.

2300
01:42:14.939 --> 01:42:19.800
So, you know, it is such, it is such a bizarre ending.

2301
01:42:19.859 --> 01:42:23.699
It's not just a shame because it's the last scene we get with

2302
01:42:23.699 --> 01:42:24.779
Roger Delgado.

2303
01:42:24.840 --> 01:42:27.600
You know, why couldn't they have had the Daleks appear.

2304
01:42:27.659 --> 01:42:29.399
The Ogons are afraid of the Daleks.

2305
01:42:29.460 --> 01:42:30.779
They had the Daleks there.

2306
01:42:30.840 --> 01:42:32.220
Why not shoot it that way?

2307
01:42:32.279 --> 01:42:34.979
And it just leaves me wondering, how are we going to end our

2308
01:42:34.979 --> 01:42:35.579
episode?

2309
01:42:42.119 --> 01:42:45.779
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd Beeley, Nathan

2310
01:42:45.779 --> 01:42:47.340
Bottomley, Brendan Jones.

2311
01:42:47.399 --> 01:42:50.159
This episode, Messi doesn't say very much.

2312
01:42:50.220 --> 01:42:52.020
That's recorded on the 3rd of April.

2313
01:42:52.079 --> 01:42:55.439
The next episode will be released on Sunday, April 26th.

2314
01:42:55.500 --> 01:42:58.859
When the doctor sees a purple horse with yellow spots.

2315
01:42:58.920 --> 01:43:00.180
It's a diplomatic conference.

2316
01:43:00.239 --> 01:43:02.819
When I see one, I'm wasting the court's time.

2317
01:43:06.359 --> 01:43:12.060
So the idea is that everyone remembers the 12 part Dalek mask.

2318
01:43:12.119 --> 01:43:12.659
Damn it.

2319
01:43:12.779 --> 01:43:16.680
Everyone remembers, it's just like Frogo all over again.