Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight to Entirety, the
only Doctor Who podcast that until 30 minutes ago thought those
chonky robot boys were actually robots.
Well, I did anyway.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Brendan.
I'm James.
And I'm Stacy.
Well, we're back in the past this week doing what the past does
best, being a rich, well realised backdrop for some top quality
Doctor Who skylarking.
It's the doctor and a bunch of comedy Vikings versus some big
stupid monsters with lots of teeth.
So let's see who wins, who loses, and who's stupid enough to take
odds on the outcome in The Girl Who Died.
I'm having a little bit of a Todd experience with this one, I have
to say.
I said earlier that series 9 was my least well-known bit of Doctor
Who and the one that I'd kind of never gone back to.
And watching this and next week's episode.
I think this is extremely good, Doctor Who, and that next week's
is kind of in quite a different way.
What's been your story with series 9, Stacy?
Yeah, I had a similar thing at the beginning that I sort of
watched it and couldn't really keep it in my head, and then when I
was writing who was the doctor too, we had to kind of watch
everything, and I think I was living in Cameroun at the time, and
I've got the DVDs, and I'm trying to like get through Doctor Who
and I got no internet, and I got to this, and I was like, this is
this is really good.
Like, what is this gem?
Like, this is this is amazing.
I feel broadly the same about series 9.
I think that like it rewards repeated viewings.
So it was maybe a bit weak, sort of the 1st round, but there's so
many layers in there.
Like, I miss the hybrid stuff. you know, they say, 0 my gosh, a
hybrid, like they're, you know, driving a Prius every week.
And I didn't even notice until like the end.
I was like, oh, yeah, there's a hybrid around, you know, that
stuff.
So stuff is layered, but I think more subtly than probably it
should be.
So that's, you know, terrible for 1st time viewers, great for long
term viewers.
So, you know, Y for fans, I guess.
I absolutely adore this story particularly.
I just, I find it's my Uber Doctor Who.
Like it is just absolutely everything I want from Doctor Who is
right here in this one single story.
And it seems very much designed that way, doesn't it?
It's a Doctor Who story where Clara, in particular, is aware of
the tropes that constitute a Doctor Who story and where the doctor
is as well, and she's the one noticing the beats as they happen.
You know, the doctor doesn't have a plan.
He's doing a thing that's not going to work and that isn't
consistent with his character, then he has an aha moment which she
actually spots happening.
And then it becomes the Doctor Who that we love, which is we beat
the monsters by being nicer and sillier than them.
And having a worse special effect.
It's amazing.
There's that beautiful moment, speaking of that, where, you know
he's he's given up his, you know, he's got, we just have to leave
like, you know, these people are going to die.
And then they're talking and he's listening to the baby crying and
then baby stops crying and he's decided to stay.
But I think it's a bit after he's decided to leave.
What he has decided to do is lead them into a battle and give them
a glorious death and that's the best that he can do.
And then when he hears the baby, Clara.
That's when Clara put her hand to his face.
Is that what you're talking about?
Yeah, because there is a point where he's going to leave when he's
in the meeting with the villagers and then he kind of decides to
stay when he hears the baby as well.
I kind of feel like it runs, it runs through some, like, very
doctor who he tropes, right?
like, you know, the beginning of Doctor Who, you know, is
basically like, there's pacifists and we have to like stand up and
fight, right?
That sort of like the bar legs.
And then you get to Patrick Trotton era, and it's like, you know
evil must be flawed, right?
And so it's kind of like, you know, the doctor's 1st approach is
like, you should all just run away.
And that doesn't work.
So he's like, okay, now we're going to stand and fight.
And that doesn't work either.
And what they're looking for is what you're saying. like, there's
a moment where it's going to be this unexpected 3rd way.
Like, we're not going to do the expected thing.
And Clara knows that's coming and the doctor knows it's going to
happen even though he has no idea what it's going to be.
And you're right. there's that moment, you can see it, and it's
like, it's really shutting behind the curtain, how Doctor Who
works, I think.
And it does something that a few other scripts in this era do
where the opening teas is setting up the premise of the episode
because they've just liberated some other planet, and, you know
Clara's been in the spider mines for too long and she's got a love
bug that's going to suck her brain out through her face, et cetera
et cetera.
Um, and Clara raises the question, what happens to people after we
save them?
And the doctor's like, well, you know, I can't do everything.
I can just give people a chance.
And then this story, the overarching story sort of explores how
that works when you take away the TARDIS, you take away the sonic
sunglasses and all you have is the local technology, local
knowledge, and people at your disposal and can, you know, can that
still work, which is, Yeah, it is doctor in microcosm. you know
saving the universe with a kettle and some string.
Yeah.
What's funny is it reminds me of Frontios.
Remember?
Frontios has this thing, which is never kind of mentioned before
and never comes up again, that the doctor shouldn't be interfering
in Frontios because it's, you know, on the boundaries of our
knowledge.
It's far, far in the future, and he can't interfere because
whatever he does will have massive ramifications.
And then he interferes anyway and just tells them not to tell
anyone.
And so here the problem is it's not the usual sort of fixed point
in time or any of that sort of nonsense.
The idea is that he can only do things he says that cause ripples
rather than causing big waves.
And so that's initially why he wants to leave.
Remember, that's how he couches what happens if the Maya gets
beaten in battle by the villagers, that that causes enough ways to
potentially change history.
And it just sort of turns out that making fun of the Maya is
fine.
And they'll just sort of go away with their tails between their
legs and we're okay.
Um, so here where we're doing that, we're looking at what the
doctor normally does and what the consequences are. in a way that
we probably haven't done since the specials.
And I think this does a better job of that, perhaps than the
specials.
Yeah, I think that opening teaser is, like you say, it's this
little microcosm of Doctor Who story that happens in like 2
minutes.
And I love that it kind of, it makes the point that like we just
leave it hanging.
It's like, no, we solve the problem today.
Yeah, they can come back.
Like, you know, they're always going to come back.
This is not a I wiped them from the universe because they come
back anywhere even when he does that.
So it's kind of like, this is it.
It's kind of like, yeah, I feel like it's like Tom Baker and
Santara Experiment being like, not today, thank you.
And it's kind of like, that's Doctor Who, right?
It's like, yeah, you know, if you try again, I'll stop you next
time too.
I'm getting some incredible Tom Baker vibes from Capaldi in this
episode as well.
Like really, really strong, I think.
So this season seems to be examining who the doctor is.
And so we go back and relitigate the Daleks and genesis of the
Daleks in the 1st 2 parter.
In the 2nd 2 part, we see the doctor in sort of Patrick Trouton
style, base under siege.
It doesn't really go much beyond that, I think, but it at least
gets us seeing the doctor do very doctor-ish things and Capaldi
doing them in particular.
But here I think there's a real proper analysis of what the doctor
does and how he beats his enemies.
It's that weird thing that almost breaks the show, isn't it?
Where Clara says you always win.
You always win, and that's what you're good at, win, you know, go
and win because that's what you do best.
But I think, I think it's how he wins.
That's the important thing that that's established.
And it's a sort of homesy thing, isn't it?
The we win by being more fun than the villains.
Yeah, I mean, I find it interesting that that, I mean, it's like
yes, the doctor always wins, but there's usually like a cost paid
right?
And even in the previous story, right?
It's like, you know, like basically like O'Donnell, you know, dies
along the way, and this is very tragic and so on, but it's sort of
like, well, that's just how Doctor Who is.
You can't really do anything about that.
And this time around, they spend a lot of time establishing all
the trips in Doctor Who, and then they go and break the rules.
And it's really clear that last 6 minutes.
They're like, oh, we're throwing it all out.
We have shown you piece by piece, how it all works, and then we're
going to throw the whole thing away, and we are breaking the rules
and we are keeping the guest character alive this time, and we're
going to see what happens now.
It's disaster.
I mean, it even breaks the episode itself.
The episode is called The Girl Who Died.
And the couple goes, well, I don't care what the episode title
is.
She's not going to die.
And in a way as well.
This...
A shield is deaf and Clara's death are bound very closely
together.
And so Sheldon will appear in 4 episodes this season, 3 or four
right?
And in the 3rd episode, like we see her going through the future
don't we?
We finally see her at the very end of the universe and she's still
with us.
But doing this tuition does lead to Clarence Dare.
And um, something else that is interesting about that for me is, of
course, the doctor here is motivated by um, Lofty's crying baby.
And when, when um, we do see a shilder again in the modern day and
the moments leading up to Clara's death and the doctor is railing
against that and saying that his, I think he uses the phrase reign
of terror, actually, like my reign of terror, no, no bounds, and
Clara's response is, your reign of terror will stop at the 1st
crying child.
And, you know, it was only watching this a 2nd time that I kind of
got that link.
And it's actually why things like things in the day of the doctor
with Clara often asked me if I dream and it's like, well, that has
not.
No, she hasn't.
She hasn't asked you that once.
And it's like, I love it when the production team can weave this
stuff through in just sort of natural moments and then pick up on
it later.
And it's important in this episode, but it is such a devastatingly
clever line in the later episode as well.
And I do remember like at the time this went out, and of course
Maisie Williams, hugely popular in Game of Thrones, there were
people who were very critical of her performance in this, and I
didn't get that at the time, and I don't get it now.
I think she is brilliant and subtle and witty and likeable.
And I think everyone just wanted to run like running around with a
sword and stabbing things like she does in Game of Thrones.
But it's like she's an actor.
She can do other things.
Yeah, but I think I think partly the backlashes because of that
but also that's a very deliberate choice.
The character is a different character every time you see her.
Here, she is a child.
She is a teenager and she is innocent and afraid.
And then when you see her next week, you know, she, it's been what
800 years, and she can't remember her past or what it was to love
or or have, you know, human emotion, basically.
And then when you meet her again later in the season, she's become
something else again, in response to what the doctor's done to
her.
Like, it's a really actually quite a strong progression through
those different characters for her, I think.
Well, I think they play that out in the final scene, right?
When you see her face, you know, the background spinning around
she gets from sort of happy to angry to determine, and it just
looks on her face.
Like the face is not cutting away there.
Yeah, it's really good, isn't it?
Because we're going around her.
Like we're going around her with the background.
And the 1st time we see her, she's happy.
Then we go around her back and then we see her and she's sadder
and then the camera just goes straight on her face and doesn't let
go and that's where we see a real change in her expression.
Yeah, she kind of hardens.
Yeah.
And then we get, and then we get to be continued.
So that sets her up as something really quite terrifying and we
don't quite know why.
But I think the thing that she does is she tracks the doctor.
And so next week, we will see how much like the doctor she is.
And then, um, and then the following time, in Face the Raven, she
has devoted herself to staying behind to help the people that the
doctor leaves behind when he, um, runs off at the end of an
episode.
And, and you know the moment, there's a moment where he's got his
2000 year diary in this and he's been looking up the mire.
And I just couldn't help thinking of Ashildi's journal of me's
journal, the following episode.
You know, both of them have been alive for so long that they have
to rely on written words on a page in order to just remind
themselves of what's been happening.
And that's kind of the 1st hint of that here, but we won't see it
pay off till next week.
Well, he gives it that look at the beginning, right?
When he enters the village and he catches and he's, you can tell
he's like, I know, I know this person from somewhere and it's so
obvious he's recognised her from his life, but he hasn't quite
clued in.
And then he's like, I know you from somewhere, and then he let at
the end, he's realised why he knows her.
There's a moment too, where he's talking with Clara and says
something about immortality and then a shilde breaks into the
conversation.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's that thing.
And I think it's a very moffity thing.
Like, I think this is a very Matheson script, but it's a very
moffety thing to do that sort of throwaway idea that premonition
is just remembering things in the wrong order.
There's no that Moffat didn't write that.
And so he's just remembered things backwards.
Her becoming immortal, has repercussions into the past as well as
into the into the future.
And I think that's really just excellent.
And, and I mean, why does he save her?
And it seems to me that he saves her because he's thinking of
Clara.
He says that, doesn't he?
That look on your face and the anger and kindness and there's
going to be a day where, you know, even remembering them hurts me
so much. barely breathe.
And that's why he saved her.
Like, a show is a storyteller, a writer, and the Moffat thing is
isn't it, to say, we're telling a story.
Actually, no, that story is not good enough.
Let's tell another one and it happens twice here.
You know, the story is, the doctor trains them all up and they
horribly defeat the Maya in some terrible way, like, because it's
never going to be, they all get killed.
That's not going to happen to Doctor Who story.
But like they fight the Maya and then for some stupid reason they
win.
Then we go, no, actually forget that.
Let's do the story where they make fun of the Maya.
And Shilda does what the story title promises dies for the sake of
the town that she loves.
And then we go actually, no, no, let's not do that.
Let's let her live because Clara, I think.
The story did have an interesting development in regards to that.
It was originally called Valkyrie, and the idea was that the Maya
would actually abduct all the women in the village to crossbreed
with them, thus creating hybrids.
And yeah, yeah, there was a there was a collective squirm just
there.
And reading between the lines and the complete history.
Moffat went, um, one, Jamie, I think you've gone a bit literal on
the hybrid thing and to also just no.
So that then became flipped on its head. because they started
discussing doing a dad's army story with like, you know, the
Vikings left behind.
It's like, okay, well, for that, they need to abduct the men and
they need, you know, Odin needs to drink a shot of testosterone
and adrenaline, which is just like...
And nothing sucks.
It was at that point, like, it had a number of working titles.
The 1st one was Valkyrie.
The 2nd was The All Fathers Army.
Oh no.
And then it became Ragnarok.
That's been a working title before.
Yeah, which that version of the script is much closer, but there's
still a few differences where instead of using the emergency
medical kit, the doctor takes her to Khan.
Oh okay.
We could always do with more Claire Higgins.
Yes.
Yeah, I find this really interesting because I think fundamentally
the episode is about storytelling, right?
And it's about, you know, like you've got like a shilder who is
the storyteller, but then also you puncture the Myra's story of
like how fierce they are. and so on with like a really terrible
story. like, um, and I love that they kind of like they take like
this new series effect, like this, this disguising a classic
series effect.
Like, I just feel like that's such great things.
And it kind of says, yeah, Doctor Who works really well, but it's
kind of like, you know, classic series storytelling and and like
you know, just how powerful that is.
And I just, I absolutely adore this.
And every episode so far has been about telling stories.
Like magician's apprentice and which is familiar is all about the
function of the companions and the villains and also the doctor
teaching Davros the idea of mercy through a parable of himself
which is kind of weird.
Then you've got the Fisher King who gets into your brain using the
written word and makes you tell his story.
And the doctor even says to the fisher king last week. is where
your story ends.
So yeah, it's been very literary and analytical of Doctor Who so
far this season.
And I do remember at the time I kind of thinking, I wonder, you
know, what the people who don't own the Doctor Who Cookbook by
Gary Downey are making of all this.
But I've said this before.
I then go, I don't care because I'm enjoying that.
Let us have this one.
Like we can have this season.
Right, so um, Odin, who is played very, very well by David
Schofield.
No criticism to David Schofield was originally cast with another
actor, and it's exactly who you, it's exactly who you think.
God bless it.
Oh, wow.
Correct.
Unfortunately, shortly before filming, he collapsed on stage as
King Lear and was diagnosed with a heart condition and it's like
maybe don't maybe don't work for a bit.
Yes.
So it was to be Brian Blessed.
Maisie Williams was cast first.
She was the main guest star, but then it's like, oh, we're doing a
story with Odin.
We need someone a bit like Brian Blessed.
Has anybody asked Brian Blessed?
That thing where he appears in the sky in the Monty Python and the
Holy Grail sort of cloud.
He's so great.
It's so surprising.
I mean...
Matheson stuff has been funny before, but this is really, really
good.
So, you know, like the yo-yo is the doctor's way of kind of
impressing them with technology.
And like Clara's seen it before.
It's like, oh, it's not the yo-yo is it?
And then he does the voice.
And then, like, when the big Odin appears in the sky and he tries
something with the yo-yo and it fails.
He goes, it's meant to do that. and he like, he's being Odin
voice.
Like, it's it's so wonderfully brilliant and he's so wonderfully
crap and that's kind of the thing about Doctor Who.
You know, like his own his own special effects are a yo-yo.
You know, it's so homespun and so crummy compared to what the Maya
can come up with.
Literally held together with a piece of string.
Yes.
But that is such a great visual.
It's so superbly funny and brilliant.
All that business that he does is one of the reasons why he's my
favourite doctor.
And he's a very Tom thing.
Like, he's channelling Tom all the time here, I think, and doing
Tom's voice from time to time and stuff.
Like, he just gets what works as the doctrine, what the role is
given that this is a show about that, he's kind of the perfect
person to do it.
I mean, we said it's literally, this is like a short story.
Simon often complains that the new series of Doctor Who produces
sort of 45 minute episodes that are just compressed for partters
but this isn't that, is it?
This is like a short story.
It takes place over one night.
The doctor sort of turns up.
There's a problem and he solves it in a very doctor-ish way.
And I think next week is that as well.
Like the scale of the story, the complexity of the story.
And the fact that it is about something more than just the action
makes it, I think, a perfect new series structure for these 2
episodes.
Yeah, I think I think even even though they have it to be
continued and they have the parallel titles, they don't feel like
two palves of a two-parter, and I mean, you had very different
kind of halves of a two-parter in the under the lake, two-parter
only because of the time jump, but like this feels like 2 separate
stories that have a linking theme and a linking kind of
character.
Tom Spillsbury made a comment about this when we're talking about
the season in one of the Dalek episodes at the beginning of the
season.
It would have been much more interesting if these hadn't been a
two-parter.
If this story had occurred, maybe where it is, and then part 2 had
occurred after the Zygon 2 parter.
So you leave her doing her own thing, you come back and see the
impact instead of immediately coming back to the character.
Yeah, yeah, I've I've long held that opinion as well.
And, you know, she could have even had a cameo in the Zygon 2
parter.
Like, um, like Billy Piper.
Yeah, like Billy Piper in Partners in Crime.
You just go, hold on, what?
And then, you know, you go, you go back to her story with Sam
Swift.
Do you know, I actually tend to disagree, and I'll tell you why.
I think that what happens next week is that we see a very
different type of Doctor Who.
So this one is the classic Doctor Who episode that hits all those
beads.
And now we get a picture of the doctor, not as a sort of comedy
hero, not as the hero of The Curse of Fatal Death, but as the
character that both Russell and Stephen Moffatt kind of want him
to be, which is this sort of tired, jaded person.
And so we get, we get the fun doctor in one episode and then in
the next episode we get a much more interesting and nuanced
portrayal of what the doctor is, not just from the way he behaves
in the story, but from the similarities between him and me.
And so we do get to see her back later in the season, but I think
that allowing us to forget about her for a bit in the middle of
the season and then bringing her back for Face the Raven is the
right choice.
And I think that these 2 form a brilliant pair.
And like some time has passed, hasn't it, between the two?
Like the doctor has been and seen her somewhere else, like in a
leper colony, it'll come up next week.
He's actually visited her and looked at her from a distance to see
how she's getting on at some point.
So both for him and for her sometime has passed between these two
but they're next to each other, I think, because they're, they're
mirrors of one another or they're, there's a really salient
contrast between them that says something about the doctor as a
character.
I think I think it makes a contrast much more stark having them
right next to each other that like that so that impact would have
been lost you.
I suppose, but I like to play what if.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I think the bit that really stands out to me is the
bit when he looks in the in the water and sees his reflection.
And I remember Moffatt saying like, oh, we're going to explain why
you know, he looks like Peter Capaldi, who looks like, you know
he's been in Doctor Who before.
And I'm like, well, you don't need to do this.
We didn't need to explain why the 6th doctor looked like that
guard that like, you know, Peter Davidson wants that.
Like, this is this, we don't need it.
And then they put it in deep breaths.
And in deep breaths, the doctor is like, who frowned this face for
me?
I'm like, oh, okay, that's fine.
That's enough.
You've acknowledged that, you know, you've met this face before or
whatever, that's good enough.
And I was really against them going for this.
And then when they did it, I find it amazing.
I actually, it makes me tear up every time.
I think the idea that like, like, the doctor needs to hold himself
to the mark and he's not actually strong enough.
And so he's like, you know what, who was?
The 10th doctor.
He was way stronger than I was.
So I'm just going to remind myself of that.
And it's like, he also needs a companion who will just cut through
and tell him what to do.
And that's not Clara.
It's Donna.
And so he's just he's just drawing on this previous strength that
he used to have.
And I think that sort of we as viewers recognise as like, you know
yeah, that was in a way Doctor Who, in its heyday.
And so it's like, that's just such a, like the moment you see
David Tennant reaching up the hand from the TARDIS in flashback
you're like, oh, yeah, this is a much more confident doctor.
Like, this doctor has been very uncertain that he, like, has to
have his predecessor called Clara the Telephone in the 1st episode
can kind of like set things straight because he's not really sure
who he is or what he is, you know, he's a good man in the previous
season and so forth.
And he finally kind of gets that certainty here.
And the 1st thing he does is he makes a terrible mistake.
And he's like, I'm just gonna say the next person I see.
And it's a bad idea.
And even admits it in this episode.
I find it really funny that he's like at the end when they get
back to the Tartars, he's like, yeah, I was angry, I was
emotional.
And he's like, oh, yeah, no, I've done terrible thing.
And like, oh, I thought they were just gonna like, you know, I'd
be like, oh, no, I did the right thing for now, and we would learn
consequences, but no, he's already figured them out, then they're
not good.
I have this thing, though, about those doctor rules, like the
rules which the doctor is supposed to follow and he follows them
by not saving people by not doing a good thing.
And those rules seem to me to be the sort of thing that I want the
doctor to break.
And it's the reason that I'm not on board very much with waters of
Mars because I think, the doctor did the right thing by saving
those people on the bass.
And here, like saving someone's life and you can save someone's
life is absolutely a thing.
Look at how central she was to that village.
And, yeah, like, like, I want him to break those big giant rules
in order to save people and we're there with chuckles, you know
crying over her body and responding to her coming back to life.
And there's no doubt in my mind that he does the right thing by
making that happen.
On that point with Waters of Mars.
I think the difference is that in the waters of Mars, the doctor
breaks the rules to prove that he can break the rules.
It's to prove that he's in charge.
The doctor here breaks the rules because of his affection and
gratitude towards a shelder.
And at the end, back in the Tartars when he's saying, I think I've
made a mistake.
I'm reminded of Jamie Matheson's earlier script, Mummy on the
Orient Express, where he says to Clara at the end, sometimes the
only choices you have are bad ones, but you still need to choose.
You know, Jamie Matheson, I think, only writes 4 or 5 scripts, but
he comes in and immediately slams down, this is who I think the
doctor is, and that is internally consistent across all of his
work.
I was having lunch this week with friend of the podcast, Anson, who
said he wished that Jamie Matheson had taken over from producer of
Stephen Moffat.
He's like, I'm not saying that is a negative thing to Chris
Chipnall.
I enjoy bits of that.
Actually, funny thing, he was saying, I rewatched the power of the
doctor recently and I had, what do you call it?
I had my Brad moment and I'm like, the Todd experience.
He said, yes, I had a to experience. a spread moment.
Sorry, Todd.
He got one letter right.
But yeah, it is this thing of the choices you may have a bad and
you may regret them, but you make the choice that is right in the
moment.
You see, I think it's more complicated than that.
I think he saves a shielder because he's terrified of losing Clara
he basically says that.
And I think David Tennant's doctor saves the people in waters of
Mars because he can't bear listening to them suffer and, you know
he's walking away from the base trying to do the right thing and
he hears over their audio people screaming and crying and
terrified and he can't just, you know, like, he's not just doing
it to Big None himself.
He's doing it because of the kindness and compassion that
characterise him as a character.
Can you explain that to Time Lord Victorious?
Well, that's the thing though.
When he gets back to Earth, it's about, well, I broke the rules
and I have the power and I saved you little people.
Yeah, I think when he goes back, it's to help people and then the
idea is that the power corrupts him.
And yeah, it's like, okay, so yeah, the power to switch the trolly
onto the track that has no one on it is that's going to corrupt
you.
No.
It's switching the trolly onto the track with the people is going
to corrupt you.
So you know what?
Matheson's next and last story is.
Oxygen.
Yes.
He has a good track record.
He's really good.
Four for four.
Yeah, I mean, the doctor has this scene where he's shouting at the
time lords, which is such a incongruous scene in New Who, that, you
know, you see this in classic who in, like, Attack of the Cybern
or whatever, and you start shouting at the sky being like, oh, I
see, it's you. you know, and this time he's like, and if you have
a problem with that, like, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
So good.
It's so good.
He's just superb in this.
Like a show that's about who the doctor is as a character has to
have Capoldi is the lead because he's just the doctor in a way
that maybe almost no one else is, I think.
Also, at the time, there was a bit of criticism of following one
character through time, as in a shilder, but this pair of episodes
makes me think of the arc.
Yeah.
You know, and even though like there are, there are dodgy aspects
to the arc, it's often held up as, with the classic series, one of
the few times we do something time travel-y with time travel.
And, you know, I think it's such an interesting idea, especially
we've been discussing since fear of a Welsh planet that it's hard
to do a story with a time travel show.
Yeah, yeah.
But to then be able to do one over 1000s of years because you have
another immortal character, it immediately opens up the universe.
And it's kind of a shame that maybe they haven't considered it
maybe she hasn't been available, but I would have loved to see
Maisie Williams give us a few appearances here and there over the
years.
They should just have her in the background every time we go to
Earth and she's just standing around.
You should just done lots of pickup shots to slot into episodes
all over the place.
I'm still waiting for the inevitable 4 box sets from Big Finnish
Clara and me.
Yeah, yes.
Yeah.
It seems like it was set up just for that, doesn't it?
Some of the criticism you talk about, I think, is partly like they
were going to the well a bit often about like, you know, immortal
beings who are going to be around at the end of time or whatever
and, you know, you've got Captain Jack, and then you've got like
you know, like Orson Pink, you know, at the end of time.
Like, there's a lot of people turning up at the end of time.
And, you know, the doctor gets to the end of the home, will it be
this week?
And oh, it's leading me this time.
And, you know, it's like, there was quite a bit of that floating
around.
And I think with hindsight, it actually feels like probably it's
more of a riff that Moffatt was interested in.
But at the time it just felt like, okay, well, which of the many
characters is going to turn up at the end of the universe this
week?
Well, it's like when you die and like aliens are falling over
themselves to kind of, you know, kind of harvest your soul or
whatever.
Is it missy?
Is it the people from Twice Upon a Time?
Is it the people from Demons of the Punjab?
You know, they're all there trying to kind of record the event, I
think.
Is it the people who bring Harry Kim back from the dead or is it
the people who bring Harry Kim's not girlfriend back from the
dead?
I love it when Voyager gets to the point where it starts copying
itself.
Sorry, different podcast.
I think what I want to really know is like, does the Maya
technology last till the end of time?
I mean, the Maya create this immortal being.
Well, but aren't they using it all themselves all the time?
I, you know.
Why aren't there a lot of Maya kind of?
You know, like hanging around in that scene with the dogs are
amazing at the very end, you would think.
One thing that I think is worth mentioning is how doctor-ish Clara
is, and I think it links in with what you were saying, Stacy, where
Donna was there to push back against the doctor, but Clara can't
do that because she is so much like the doctor.
And it's that scene with her talking the Maya into leaving at the
very beginning, which I think is just extraordinary.
And there's even a moment where Amaya walks past her really
quickly, like really close and she sort of gets out of the way and
she goes, oh, hello, as if she's Tom.
You know, like it's the it's the most amazing thing.
And so, and so Maisie gets to be her companion and do the silly
thing while she's talking the aliens away.
Like she nearly is the doctor enough to solve this problem at the
very beginning.
It basically works except for a shoulder, right?
Which is kind of like the season as a whole.
It's like...
It's like sort of an inverted version of the demons where, you
know, Joe jumping in front and saying, no, like actually solves
the problem.
Whereas the time lord's standing there going, oh, but no, no, you
really shouldn't.
You really shouldn't wipe out this planet because it's nice and da
da da and Joe's and the demon's like, no, I'm going to wipe it
out.
And Joe Jobs.
Oh, no.
So we've kind of got the subversion of that where usually the
companion steps in like with a leaf, for instance, in Rings of
Back of 10 and solves the problem that the alien god can't solve.
But this time, the human and very understandable reaction of a
shelder who's just seen a lot of her friends die is actually what
creates the episode's problem.
It's so good, isn't it?
It's so good.
And you kind of forget that it very, very quickly establishes how
fond she is of those warriors and how fond they are of her with
them arriving back and they've all arrived back.
No one has died, you know, at the beginning of the episode
bringing the doctor and Clara back, and then they're killed, and
like, she's still a child.
She's not Aria Stark.
I mean, she is a frightened girl, but like she's so, she's so
fierce and so fantastic at that moment.
And I think the other really, really good acting moment she gets
is that speech and it's a backstory exposition speech about who
she is and why the village matters to her.
And she just delivers it like she's thinking it up as she's going
along.
It's so well done.
She absolutely nails it.
Like, she's an outsider and a nerd and someone who's into
storytelling, someone who doesn't conform to gender norms either.
She's an outsider and she knows that wherever else she goes that
isn't this village, she's going to be an outsider.
She's not gonna get the love and protection that she gets here.
And I think too, that portraying a past, a village, like just a
little village full of silly Vikings and stuff.
You know, that those Vikings are people who, who love her.
Like it's so, it's so clear and so well done.
It's interesting what you say about her not conforming to gender
norms because in one version of the script, she was married to the
village carpenter.
Right.
And he was her front.
Like she was the one that was actually doing all the carpentry.
And he was just the storefront.
Everybody thought he was the carpenter, but it was actually her
doing it behind the scenes.
That's awesome Yeah, I think there's something really beautiful
about it, I think.
Yeah.
And I think also, we often look back in history and assume that
gender roles would have been what they were in our cultures around
the 19th century, but it's not necessarily true.
And there's lots of evidence that in Viking settlements.
There is a lot more equity and a lot more sharing of gender roles
and tasks than we might have thought.
So I really kind of appreciate that, you know, she does have that
comment, but at the same time, no one in the village treats her
storytelling as silly or stupid and it's actually, it's actually
really respected or the puppetry.
And then, and then, you know, when Lofty's baby's crying, it's
lofty comforting the baby, which, you know, we would assume that.
Stealing, why has lofty stolen a baby?
That's so doctored?
Like, that's an almost Matt Smith.
Dr. Fing?
just like I can't possibly understand what sort of human
interactions. you know, happen around a baby.
So he's stealing it clearly.
Yeah.
And, and, you know, chuckles comforting a shoulder and assuming
the doctor is going to make fun of him.
When actually the doctor's just a little bit uncomfortable with
such a genuine and raw expression of emotion, like earlier when he
realises Clara is alive, he runs up and gives her a thumbs up and
says, you know, I'm still not good with the hugging.
Oh, never mind, you know, scoops her up and what have you.
I think there is a lot going on here to kind of, we, I think we've
spoken about before.
You know, the past is kind of represented as us, you know, um, sort
of theme park historical. thats it.
Thanks, Pete.
But it's kind of also like, well, actually, no, if you, you know
if you look back in history, the social roles were more complex
than we often give them credit for.
Yeah, I think it's also that moment it's hinted that like both the
doctor and Clara have a bit of a crush on his shoulder. like early
on.
And you're just like, oh, fine, your forearm.
Yeah, I feel like this is the only time I think you really see
this kind of interest in somebody from Peter Cavaldi's doctor.
And it's like, wait, what?
Did that just really happen?
He's normally very asexual in his presentation.
And so I love this moment and it's just, yeah, they're both into
her.
But I mean, I didn't necessarily read it as a sexual per se, but
just that they were, you know, they wanted to make their
companion.
I think it's sexual.
I think it's meant to be sexual. with Clara.
I'm not sure about the doctor because the doctor and he could just
be, you know, it could be the intention that he's kind of covering
it up, but he just says, you know, you humans you're obsessed with
this, you know.
Yeah.
And again, it's that sort of weird my hobby's you thing as well
which would get a little Clara too.
But that's a great.
I mean that is a great moment.
And I just think, you know, that's going to continue next week
isn't it?
where she's going to present as a man for some of the time and
then frock up as a woman, you know, in a very kind of girly
womanly way at times as well.
And because she's read Malcolm Gladwell and has practised sounding
like a man for 10,000 hours or something, she can do it
perfectly.
I'd like to say one more thing about casting, because in the role
of Heidi, as the doctor nicknames a particular Viking with braided
beard, we have Barnaby K, who would later go on to play
Wallander.
So the one who's not Kenneth Branner.
Oh okay.
Yeah.
Oh, they've got a Dane in or something, have they?
Of that descent, yes.
Right.
In real life, he's married to Nicola Walker.
Oh my god.
That house must be amazing.
Yeah, Livchenka in Big Finish and just an amazing actress in many
many, many other things.
And of course, we've got Ian Conningham as chuckles, and I don't
know what else he's done, but I'd like to see more.
Yeah, me too.
Well, I think my last outstanding question is, why are there South
American eels in a Viking village?
It's kind of there.
Also, I looked it up.
I think the eels produced like 860 volts and they produced like
one amp here for like 2 milliseconds.
Like, it is not going to do what they think it's doing.
Like eels are not that good at conducting.
Is there a line of dialogue where it's like get that stuff from
Clara's spacesuit, which will amplify the thing or something like
that?
Clearly he's looked at least at the Wikipedia page and has decided
there has to be some hand wavy science fiction magic reason why it
actually electrocutes people.
It is great.
So I have to say that that resolution is really, really terrific
because it's so simple.
And when the doctor hits upon it, he looks like such a madman as
well, which is absolutely on points and in character.
But it's that thing.
Like he hears a thing.
He works out that it's eels and right from there he's worked out.
Nope, we can win now and he's absolutely nailed it at that
moment.
But I love that it turns on eels.
And partly, I think, because Stephen Moffin is a big fan of the
word fish as well.
He thinks it's hilarious.
And I think eels is a pretty hilarious word too.
I do also like how they're very dramatically aware eels because
when he turns to the craze and says, why did nobody tell me we
have eels?
They all bite up.
It's like, hi, here we are.
It heals with jazz hands.
There is one more thing I'd like to mention before we go.
So, Ed Basiljet, the director.
This is not his 1st career.
No.
He was previously a musician.
Yes.
He will go on just before you say this.
He'll go on and do next week's episode and he also does the return
of Dr. Mysterio.
Yes.
Yes, that's right.
But way back in the 80s, he was the lead guitarist in a group
called The Vapours, who particularly Australian listeners may
recognise for their hit song Turning Japanese.
Oh.
That takes me back.
Which, okay. but yes. really is.
That was sort of formative, wasn't it?
Like that was that was our time, I think.
I remember that incredibly well.
So I, and like presumably he was in the film clip for that, because
I think the film clip had the meaner, didn't it?
So we may have seen him during our youth, I think, on a telly.
It's pretty amazing.
That's awesome He is also on the board of governors of Coal Hill
Academy as well, because he does direct 3 episodes of class.
Maybe the 1st three.
Well, listen, that's all the time we've had for this week.
We'll be back next week for some ennui, lassitude, and general
world weariness in The Woman Who Lived.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety
com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as
links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterra, maximum
power, and untitled Star Trek project.
Until next time, remember that we're past the Big Bang and
dinosaurs now and well into the mounting sense of futility stage.
So relax and enjoy the ride.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon Bye.
That was Flight Through Entirety.
Sorry, Nathan Botterley, Brendan Jones, James Selwood and Stacy
Smith.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam.
This episode, eels with jazz hands, was recorded on the 27th of
August 2023 and released on the 15th of October.
As is now well known, the girl who died forms the 2nd part of a
trilogy, alongside the girl who waited, and next year's shooting
Gantware episode, the girl who was just not as well dressed as the
doctor. starring Millie Gibson as Ruby Sunday.
Because he does direct three episodes of Class, maybe the first
three.
I don't know what that is.
Never heard of it.
You didn't miss much.
I actually kind of liked fast.
I love the class novels.
They wrote 3 novels and I found them in Indonesia and I read them
and they're like, these are really good.
Like, that show could have worked. big Finnish audios are quite
good too.
Yeah, no, look, on big finish. they work really well Who's who's
Quill in Big Finish now?
Someone different.
They recast.
Devla Cohen.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the Kitty Angel. and the 1st Phoebe in Good Night
sweetheart.
Wait, isn't Devlico and also Mrs. Watts a face?
From...
Yes.
From the Cybermen.
Cybermen, terrible Cybermen, Christmas special.
Yeah, that one.
Yeah, it was great.
I thought you meant the next doctor, that terrible announcement
video with Peter Capaldi.
All I saw was he's had hands.
Like you see his hands and he's wearing a wedding ring and I just
went, oh my god, he's old and straight.
Oh, it's okay.
Peter Capaldi.
I reckon we probably, we may, in some form or other, and I'm going
to be vague in case he sends up as a...
I think, yeah, I think we may do class at some point in the
future.
Oh, I see, right.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Like, maybe, maybe.
I don't know.
It has inspired me to watch the 2nd episode.
Oh, the 2nd episode is really violent.
It's wonderful. incredibly glory.
That's the thing.
I didn't not...
I was kind of like, I watched the 1st episode. yeah, that's fine
and then just didn't watch the rest It wasn't anything of I'm not
watching this.
It's like the Simpsons spinoff showcase, right?
Where in the 1st one, Homer turns up to visit Chief Wickham.
And it's something like, I can't wait to see what adventures
you'll have in this exciting new kind of setup or something, this
exciting new kind of milieu.
And that's what Capaldi does at the end of the episode.
First episode of Glass.
It's just like, here I am, have a leg and I can't wait to see what
exciting the adventures you have.
Ram's hot anyway as well.
I thought I'd mention that.
Smoking hot.
I did just realise, though, that I've actually seen more of K9
than I have seen in class.
So maybe maybe don't put that in the episode given that you're a
school teacher and he's supposed to be a teenager.
Oh, he's not a teenager.
Oh, no, no, the actors not a teenager.
He's a teenager.
He's a TV teenager. what 40.
So I accidentally outed myself as being 64 years old by accident
on an episode of Until Star Trek Project, because I can't do that
the arithmetic that you do with decades.
You know how normally you go, oh, 1990.
Oh, okay, so that's 20 years ago, you know, like you do that just
all the time.
Like it just doesn't seem possible.
You know, so I overcompensated and said I was 31 in 1990 when, when
um, when the Wesley was in Remember Me or whatever it is, whatever
we were doing.
I can't even remember.
Might have been, remember me.
And Joe was saying how hot he was, and I was saying I was a bit
old for that at 31, and then Peter said, actually, you know...
And what I did.
This is the magic of everything, Stacy.
I went back and re-recorded myself.
Saying that line, the edit point happens during the word 1990, just
to make it seamless.
And so now if you download that episode, I say the right day, the
right thing.
So that's a thing that I can do.
You could do James's voice as well, so I can just change all of
his lines.
You could have hated a story. where you just get your age wrong
every episode and no one can pin you down.
This is why I always wonder when I'm listening to episodes, why
I'm not on them.
Yeah