WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:11:54

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that's been left to fend for ourselves

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will be fine.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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Well, Bonnie is determined to derail the fragile piece between

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humans and Zygons, and the doctor has a very, very, very long

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speech to deliver, so we'd best be cracking on.

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It's time to discuss the Zygon inversion.

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So, we're back from the cliffhanger, quite a long sort of pre

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credits teaser.

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How do we think the resolution ranks alongside the cliffhangers of

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history?

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I can remember being underwhelmed by it when I watched it the 1st

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time, but this time I thought it was quite funny.

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If you're going to have a cliffhanger, just have a missile fired

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by Clara or someone looking like Clara at the doctor's plane and

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then it explodes. right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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We did hear the offscreen explosion at the end of the last episode

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before we come to the credits.

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Yes, but we didn't see it, did we?

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No, no.

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It is a slight sheet, but I think that's just about permissible.

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I like it when the reprises are a little bit different.

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And I think, I mean, so we get a co-writing credit with Moffatt

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and almost certainly that's the speech, don't you think?

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Absolutely.

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But I mean, this is also very moffity as well, having Clara in

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this sort of weird virtual reality environment or, you know, inside

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her own memory or inside her own flat, you know, to represent her

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being in the pond.

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It made me think of Forest of the Dead.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's right, with a little girl watching TV and it ends up being

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somewhere else that's actually real.

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Yeah, I think it's a really good realisation of how you can

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portray someone being trapped in something like that rather than

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them being like in a black or a white void.

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Yeah, but even down to the nonsense on the newspapers because

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that's not important to her.

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It just, the newspapers are just gibberish, but the only things

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that she can see are other things that attach her to reality.

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I thought the really interesting thing.

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You know, when she 1st looks at the alarm clock and the writing's

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either upside down, I guess it's upside down rather than...

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I think it's weird, yeah.

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But it just reminds me of getting one of these AI art creating

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things, you know, like Dali or something that can't do words.

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Like it just can't do words.

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It can do people in places and stuff.

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But it just can't do letters or words at all.

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And so it just seemed like an AI created reality that couldn't get

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the newspaper or the toothpaste, right?

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Like that really fabulously off putting toothpaste thing where it

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just says this is toothpaste on it.

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So it makes it dreamlike, I think.

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Charcoal toothpaste is really great actually.

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It's actually a thing, isn't it?

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Since 2015.

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It's sort of like the teachers in the peanuts just sort of

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being...

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No, I think that is really good.

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And I do think that the sort of things that she does.

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You know, you've got to sell Clara as smart and I think they

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generally manage it.

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And so he or she gets to be terribly smart, and I love her kind of

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moving the television in order to get the site, not to work, and

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then realising that if she moves her own hand that's going to

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start affecting how Bonnie acts.

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So I think all of that stuff is really, really great.

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And it's a natural development of that kind of relationship

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between the Zygon who is imprinting off Clara.

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It's something which Terror of the Saigons didn't do, but you

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think that should actually work.

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It's the person who is in stasis or in the pod or whatever, being

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able to control them back in some way.

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Yeah, I think that's right.

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And I think it's something we could never, ever have done in the

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1970s.

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And one of the things that I think that this 2 parter gets right

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is bring back the Zygons, but do something different with them.

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Don't just get them back to do their greatest hits.

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And we talked a little bit last week about some of the changes in

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the Zygons that didn't quite work for us.

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But certainly, you know, changing the rules slightly.

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We saw last week and having this relationship between Bonnie and

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Clara works really well.

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And again, that's a very moffety thing.

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Like when he brings back the angels and the 2 parts and he sort of

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changes up what they're capable of and the way that they affect

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the characters.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it gives the angels a voice in that 2 partner.

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Yeah, but I do love the way, you know, it's actually explicitly

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said, you know, that was the old rules.

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This is the new rules, like they've actually said.

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Now we've just decided that it's going to work differently now, and

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we're kind of acknowledging that.

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Yeah.

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Well, there's that thing in the reprise where Jack says, actually

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they can't be the duplicates because Zygons don't work like that.

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So there is an acknowledged set of rules because we don't know.

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I think I said last week, we don't know whether we're going to

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follow the rules properly or not. you know, how is this going to

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work?

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Are we just going to use our half remembered bits of terror of the

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zygons and then just sort of do something slightly different?

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But here, no, we're obeying the rules very properly.

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And Peter Harness, as I said last week, is writing this with the

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soundtrack to Terror of the Zygons in his headphones, apparently.

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However, that is part of the problem with the story for me.

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I think this episode is quite good.

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Last week's episode missed as much as it hit for me, and I think

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the main problem is the Zygons.

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It's the same problem that I had with them in Day of the Doctor

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where they're really interchangeable with any shapeshifting alien

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race here, because the thing that makes them incredible and tear

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up the zigons is that alienness and that bleakness to the story

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and the John Wood nuttiness.

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And that is missing here.

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They look silly.

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It's the brigadier in Morden Undead.

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You can't just bring back the brigadier and pop him in the middle

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of a gaudy, noisy 80 story and expect that that will be fine.

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If you bring back the brigadier, you have to bring back the

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essence of the brigadier.

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And so it needed to be a unit story.

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It needed to be something that made you think of the pertwheat

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era.

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And that's my problem with this, even though I quite like the

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story.

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And I think the Zygons are done well in some instances.

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It's missing that essential zygonness for me.

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I think by this point we own the Zygons in the new series and now

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they're the monster from the day of the doctor.

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And I think that's okay.

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But we did talk a little bit again last week about the fact that

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the zygons aren't played by the actors who whose doubles they

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are.

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Big mistake.

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Yeah. and there's just 2 people.

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There's 2 men who play all of the Zygons, which is why we only

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ever see sort of 2 Zygons at once, except in effect shots because

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there are just 2 and it's just them playing the same doubles of

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everyone.

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Imagine if you'd got the the little girl actors in Zichon costumes

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like the decimas.

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God, they would be like a decimal.

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I mean, I mean, Jenna's not that big.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, if she had been, I just can't imagine her sitting still long

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enough to be made up like a Zygon?

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I don't think she would have put up with it.

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They wouldn't have asked them.

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No, they just obviously wouldn't have asked her.

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But yes, I think that that is a little bit of a shame.

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The problem is that the design is immaculate.

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It was Roger Murray Leach. who designed them the 1st time, and

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they look incredible, and they still look incredible, but the

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difference between this and Terror of the Zygons is in Terror of

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the Zygons, they're shot in shadow and in bizarre close-up of

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those deep eyes and menacing Sarah in a barn.

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And that's how they work.

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Here, they're stomping around and they just look vaguely silly.

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And just going, ah, you know, it's kind of just archetypal

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monster.

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It's not as interesting as it could be.

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I did like this more than I did the 1st time round, I have to say

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and I do think the 2nd episode is actually, and I think the 2nd

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episode is actually quite strong.

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The 1st episode's a bit kind of like, it's just a bit too much of

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a runaround for me.

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But yeah, just to echo what Pete is saying, is that I don't think

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it's the fact that the Zygons are, it's all very well to say that

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oh, yes, you know, the new series owns them now since day of the

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doctor. effectively like it's a different monster, but I just, I

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just think that the realisation of them in the 70s is is so much

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better.

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It's more interesting.

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It sets them apart from other monsters and it's the, it's the

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creepiness and the isolation, the feeling of isolation that I

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think makes terror of the Zygons so powerful.

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I don't think that means you have to set this in a remote part of

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Scotland or something, but I think...

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Yes, or just a remote part of anywhere.

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Two of the Zygons has that sense of creeping infiltration.

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Now, I think that's that also is what makes that original story so

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so fantastic for me. speaking of remote locations.

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You know the cliff top, which is supposed to be the white cliffs

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of Dover, is actually the same location as Delta and the

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Bannerman.

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Oh, really?

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It's where the holiday camp was, like it was demolished in the mid

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2000s, but it's the same location.

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And speaking of locations in general, this is very specifically

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set in South London, because they keep referencing places like

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Brockwell Park and Dulwich, but of course not shot there, and I've

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been to Brockwell Park many times, and it does not look like that

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corner of Cardiff that they shot.

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I guess what I think is great, though, is just the ambition of the

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premise here that we suddenly have 20000000 aliens living on

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Earth.

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I just think that's incredible.

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And so last week, which is a runaround, isn't it, to kind of try

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and establish the scale of it by taking us to New Mexico and

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wherever.

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Where else are we going?

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Turmenistan?

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Oh, yes, I made up a stand.

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Yeah, I made up a stand, which seems to somehow have a Christian

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church in the middle of it.

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Even though it's, but it would be a Muslim country.

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Well, I think that we wanted to kind of avoid that, I think, like

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we talked a little bit about this last week, and obviously it kind

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of works as some kind of take on Muslim immigration in the UK, in

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particular, and, you know, other European countries and even here

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and the anxiety that people felt because that was happening during

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a period of time where we were in conflict in various Muslim

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countries, and, you know, there'd been terrorism and all of that

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sort of thing..

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But I think they go out of their way not to make it about Muslims

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particularly.

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And so we have a sort of strange Eastern European country, I think

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probably with that Christian church in the middle.

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It's just all the talk of radicalisation.

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The audience just makes the connection anyway.

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Yeah, that's right.

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And that's sort of interesting, isn't it?

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So you've got the idea that there are 20000000 people living among

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us who are quite happy living among us in a are contributing.

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There's that guy, the guy that Bonnie makes normalise and he just

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wants to leave.

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That's a really great part of this. really good.

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It's very strong.

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It's super upsetting.

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Except for those 3 kids who are sitting outside when he turns into

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the Zygon and they just look at him.

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They don't actually react. and background queue background queue.

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Yeah, that's really, really good, isn't it?

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I think.

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And properly atmospheric too.

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So we get that happening while Bonnie and Clara interacting.

246
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I'm going to say body and body.

247
00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:37.559
I keep trying not to say funny, Clyde.

248
00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:42.419
I would have liked that spinoff, Bonnie and Clara.

249
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.120
But yeah, that is properly good, isn't it?

250
00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:46.860
Because it is just an ordinary person.

251
00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:51.659
The only ordinary zigon that we see and get to know in any way, and

252
00:12:51.659 --> 00:12:55.500
he's absolutely just happy living in England for some reason, and

253
00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:59.039
he just wants to live his life and he's being prevented from doing

254
00:12:59.039 --> 00:12:59.340
that.

255
00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:03.539
And that scene with the Saigons and their incredible design works

256
00:13:03.539 --> 00:13:06.779
because when the doctor comes across him and he's in that darkened

257
00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:07.919
kind of corner store.

258
00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:10.440
That's exactly where the Zygon should be placed.

259
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:12.360
Like Harry in the barn.

260
00:13:12.419 --> 00:13:13.019
Exactly.

261
00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:14.879
Yes, yes, yes.

262
00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:17.039
The fact that he commits suicide.

263
00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:19.620
Is he doing that or is he?

264
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:20.639
Yeah, I was trying to work that out.

265
00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:23.580
Is he committing suicide or is it the fact that Bonnie is sort of

266
00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:26.700
like it's some kind of influence of...

267
00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:28.440
No, I think he does kill himself.

268
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:29.519
He does decide to kill himself.

269
00:13:29.580 --> 00:13:30.179
Yeah, yeah.

270
00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:31.379
And they can for town ruin.

271
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.659
They can tell that he's about to do it.

272
00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:37.019
And there aren't that many on-screen suicides, and this is a sort

273
00:13:37.019 --> 00:13:39.659
of space fantasy suicide.

274
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:40.799
Nevertheless.

275
00:13:40.860 --> 00:13:43.500
But still, yeah, I think it is pretty strong.

276
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:49.559
I think it is why this episode might work better for me than last

277
00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:50.220
week's episode.

278
00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:51.779
It narrows down the focus.

279
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.779
And last week's episode with the best will in the world felt a bit

280
00:13:54.779 --> 00:13:55.379
torchwood.

281
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:58.139
It was just kind of, was trying to be global, was actually shot in

282
00:13:58.139 --> 00:13:58.740
Cardiff.

283
00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:04.379
Um, and it was um, a bit puerile, I think, in its politics, whereas

284
00:14:04.379 --> 00:14:08.340
this episode drills down on it a little bit, and goes in a little

285
00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:12.120
bit more and feels more consequential, and it doesn't fall into

286
00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:16.919
that two-part trap of having the 2nd episode just being a slightly

287
00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:18.899
associated riff on the 1st episode.

288
00:14:19.019 --> 00:14:21.539
It actually continues and focusses the story.

289
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:25.259
It's got some edge to it as well. as we were just saying, with the

290
00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:25.980
suicide sequence.

291
00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:30.840
I think the 1st episode has to kind of justify the scale of this.

292
00:14:30.899 --> 00:14:32.519
It's such a big thing.

293
00:14:32.580 --> 00:14:37.139
And so it needs to look a bit worldwide and stuff and they do that

294
00:14:37.139 --> 00:14:40.320
the kind of best they can and they do go to Spain, don't they?

295
00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:40.980
Yes.

296
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:43.500
Oh, yeah, but that's the equivalent of going to a quarry.

297
00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:44.700
Oh yeah, no idea.

298
00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:47.220
It's a very brightly lit quarry.

299
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.919
Yeah, and lots of colour grading and all of that sort of thing.

300
00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:52.740
See, what we really needed was a bit of Trinity Wells.

301
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:54.840
Yeah, that could have sold it.

302
00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:57.600
Well, except that, of course, it's not public.

303
00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:01.860
That's the other thing about it, is that it's kind of happened, but

304
00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:05.700
no one knows about it, which is kind of interesting.

305
00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:09.960
You're not getting the clips of BBC News apart from when the Zygon

306
00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:11.759
body uploads the video.

307
00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:12.179
Yeah.

308
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.759
I can imagine Trinity Wells, can't you?

309
00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:18.059
News flash, people are turning into orange babies.

310
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:25.259
I think too, because the way that guy reads, it reads like he's

311
00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:26.519
really grossly diseased.

312
00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:27.720
Do you know what I mean?

313
00:15:27.779 --> 00:15:31.200
Like he's got these, you know, the suckers and rough thing on his

314
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:31.500
arm.

315
00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:34.080
He's got, like, his faces swelling up and all of that.

316
00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:37.679
And so he looks like that looks really effective.

317
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:40.440
It's like that wonderful shot in Day of the Doctor, where Kate

318
00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.720
turns into a Zion on camera.

319
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:47.039
And we never really do it that expensively in this 2 carter

320
00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:51.179
particularly not, particularly not the one that's menacing Kate at

321
00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:53.879
the end of the previous episode, where the camera just sort of

322
00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.519
moves away and we look at Kate for a bit and then it moves back

323
00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:57.539
and it's aside.

324
00:15:57.539 --> 00:15:59.220
I really quite like that.

325
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.159
One of the few directorial touches in this episode of Deadline.

326
00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:05.159
Let's do that.

327
00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:09.000
In episode one where they turn the little girls into the Zygon so

328
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:10.799
they can kill them because of course you can't kill them.

329
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:12.000
No, yeah. exact screen.

330
00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:13.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

331
00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:29.940
Did you know that, uh, initially, the general that was in charge

332
00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:35.820
of the unit forces in what became Tazmenistan was supposed to be

333
00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:36.960
General Bambera?

334
00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:38.519
Oh, wow.

335
00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:41.039
You see, that would have really lifted this episode for me.

336
00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:45.000
I don't know what the, you know what it is that she wasn't there?

337
00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:45.659
It's a shame.

338
00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:52.679
We did get Rebecca Front reunited with Peter Capaldi, which was

339
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:53.159
pretty great.

340
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:54.240
I have to say.

341
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:56.340
And she was really pretty good.

342
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:00.059
She's not in it this week and lovely Jack is not in it, obviously

343
00:17:00.059 --> 00:17:02.639
because she was killed at the end of the last episode, sadly.

344
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:03.960
That's horrible, isn't it?

345
00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:05.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

346
00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:07.200
She was really good. was very effective.

347
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:09.660
She's got such a fabulously posh voice as well.

348
00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:13.079
I really appreciated her in the rapprise at the beginning of this

349
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:13.380
song.

350
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:13.980
She's really good.

351
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:17.640
So the other thing that happens, which I think is really

352
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:23.339
interesting is that the doctor thinks that Clara is dead for a

353
00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:27.660
while, and it's big enough that he addresses it later, and just

354
00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:31.619
considering what happens in 2 episodes time, I think it was worth

355
00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:33.480
doing. absolutely.

356
00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:37.500
That piece of dialogue at the end, where it was really only 5

357
00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:40.019
minutes, he said, it felt like a month, you know, I'll be the

358
00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:41.400
judge of the time, really hits home.

359
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:44.460
Actually, that says a lot, that peace dialogue.

360
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:45.059
Yes.

361
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:49.980
And the interaction there, like Osgood and the doctor get quite a

362
00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:54.299
lot of time together while Clara's acting against herself is

363
00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:55.259
Bonnie.

364
00:17:55.259 --> 00:17:57.240
And I like the 2 of them together.

365
00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:00.240
I like the 2 of them together more than I like the doctor in

366
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:00.660
class.

367
00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:06.839
But isn't it just that thing that we miss so much in the new era

368
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.440
which is the doctor having a kind of a studio surrogate companion

369
00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:14.460
in a story and we have that finally here with Osgood.

370
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:15.180
It's so rare.

371
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.220
And she's really great.

372
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:18.420
Isn't she?

373
00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:19.200
she's fantastic.

374
00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:22.019
She just gets better with each episode she's in.

375
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.720
She does and she sparks off Capaldi so well.

376
00:18:24.779 --> 00:18:26.099
And the actress.

377
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.339
And that bit at the end where he invites her to join him on the

378
00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:29.940
Tartars.

379
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:30.960
You're like, yes, please.

380
00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:31.559
Yes.

381
00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:34.319
And she's just like, I've got a whole world to look after.

382
00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:36.779
Like, yeah, I have responsibilities here.

383
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:41.160
Coming back to how dark this episode is. like in the initial

384
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:47.160
drafts, it was even darker. they had planned to bring back Samuel

385
00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:53.339
Anderson as a Zygon... and have him killed.

386
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:57.359
And that's why Bonnie, who had already assumed the identity of

387
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:00.720
Clara, was mad and wanted...

388
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.059
Oh, okay. on the Zigon high command.

389
00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:09.240
And in those initial drafts, also the real Clara was mortally

390
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:13.440
wounded and would transfer her consciousness into Bonnie.

391
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:14.220
Bonnie would die.

392
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.039
She would be as icon the rest of the wrong.

393
00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:19.980
Yeah, and Clara Clara was going to become a zigon.

394
00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:22.799
This all sounds very complicated.

395
00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:24.539
I think that ended up on the cutting room floor.

396
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.819
I mean, I would encourage it to be darker, but as could of echoing

397
00:19:26.819 --> 00:19:28.380
what we were talking before about terror of the Zygons.

398
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:29.759
I also want it to be physically dark.

399
00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:33.539
That's why I think that mini mart section works so well is that

400
00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:34.319
it's actually dark.

401
00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:38.099
There's so much of modern Hoo, which is brightly lit or brightly

402
00:19:38.099 --> 00:19:41.579
like that they somehow multicoloured lit. multicoloured lit and

403
00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:44.160
they somehow have managed to find, you know, some sunny days to do

404
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:45.480
all the outdoor filming.

405
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.880
And of course, they're going to places like Spain and so on, which

406
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:49.319
changes the light.

407
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:52.259
But it's interesting, that thing about, you know, what you're

408
00:19:52.259 --> 00:19:55.559
saying, James, about Osgood wanting to, you know, saying, oh, I've

409
00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:56.700
got this whole world to look after.

410
00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:58.859
It's what I've said many times about companion departures.

411
00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.319
She's taking this responsible. she's, yes, she wants to travel

412
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.420
with a doctor, but she says, no, I am needed here.

413
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:08.099
And it's that choice, which has always disappointed me that with

414
00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:09.299
the exception of Martha.

415
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:12.839
We haven't allowed any other person in the new series to be able

416
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:13.380
to take.

417
00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:16.799
They always have to leave for space reasons because the doctor

418
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:17.940
could just come back for them.

419
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.539
Well, they always have to leave for space reasons because they've

420
00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:24.420
somehow decided that the idea of travelling with a doctor is so

421
00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:27.960
wonderful and attractive that you never wanted to end and there's

422
00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:29.759
never going to be a point where you want it to end.

423
00:20:29.819 --> 00:20:31.500
But people change.

424
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:33.119
People grow apart and so on like that.

425
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.039
You know, the best companion departures throughout the years

426
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:39.900
whether it's Joe or Sarah or Tegan, for instance, or Victoria.

427
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:43.559
Yeah, they realise that, no, this part of my life is over and I've

428
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:44.460
got to now do something else.

429
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.759
And even though it's a bit rubbish and it is contract roulette

430
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:49.740
even with Stephen leaving at the end of the savages.

431
00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.500
You know, there's this sense that, or Nissa at the end of Terminus

432
00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.920
which is, again, pilloried as a bit of contract roulette, in those

433
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.440
cases, they're saying, I can actually do something with my skills

434
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:00.180
here, I can do something and help other people.

435
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.599
I can become like the doctor, which is sort of, I suppose what

436
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.359
claret sort of ends up doing at the end of this season, but just

437
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.240
not, not with the same sense of self-determination.

438
00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:12.119
It's a little bit too science fiction-y.

439
00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:13.500
Like the next 2 companions.

440
00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:16.079
This companion, Clara and Bill will both leave to become the

441
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:16.380
doctor.

442
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:17.519
Yeah, essentially.

443
00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:18.839
And all of that's good.

444
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:21.000
That's all fine, you know, and that's where Clara is sort of

445
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:24.779
working towards and has been for a while, but there's so much

446
00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:28.680
science fiction, so much high concept stuff around it, that the

447
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:31.559
kind of emotional thing never really lands.

448
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.220
And I mean, Bill doesn't really properly get to say goodbye to the

449
00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:35.700
doctor at all.

450
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.799
Yeah, it's quite heartbrending.

451
00:21:37.859 --> 00:21:38.700
Yes, awful.

452
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:44.759
I also like I liked the final answer to the question because

453
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:49.079
people ask both the doctor and Kate ask Ozgood.

454
00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:54.000
I think the doctor asks her twice and Kate asks her, which are

455
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:54.240
you?

456
00:21:54.299 --> 00:21:58.799
And her response at the end is I'm not going to tell you until it

457
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:02.460
no longer matters until no one is interested in the answer to the

458
00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:02.759
question.

459
00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:04.920
And I think that's really great.

460
00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:06.000
Elegant, isn't it?

461
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:09.420
Yeah, it's totally good because that's what it's about, isn't it?

462
00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:11.880
You know, like if this is about immigration.

463
00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:15.240
You know, the moment it doesn't matter if someone has migrated

464
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:15.960
here or not.

465
00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:19.619
We still accept and regard and, you know, that's right.

466
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:21.900
Us, you know, older people ask the question, where are you from?

467
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:22.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

468
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.680
But that's interesting, but it doesn't matter, you know.

469
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:29.700
Can I provide a bit of a counter to this, which is certainly not

470
00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:33.779
deliberate in the way the story is written, but it is a sense that

471
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:35.819
I get, and it's also the sense that I get from the guy who

472
00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:39.900
basically kills himself in the mini Mart, is that what we're

473
00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:42.720
saying is that, okay, there are 20000000 zygons living amongst us

474
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.680
mainly in Britain.

475
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:48.240
And it's okay, provided we don't know that there's igons.

476
00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:51.660
So basically, as long as they assimilate to the extent that they

477
00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:54.779
look like us, they sound like us and we don't know who they are.

478
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:55.859
Sorry.

479
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.380
You look like us yourself.

480
00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:02.099
That's my line.

481
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.380
But the, you know, that's okay.

482
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.740
But basically, because what Bonnie wants to do, Bonnie says, no

483
00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:13.259
I'm sick of pretending to be a human.

484
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:15.720
I want to live my own self.

485
00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:16.980
I want to be a zigon.

486
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:20.099
Now, she's doing it from a kind of a more revolutionary extremist

487
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:22.920
point of view, but having said that, she does have a point.

488
00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.079
Why should we have to hide amongst the humans?

489
00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:26.579
Why can't we live our own life?

490
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.359
So, you know, and so what she's doing and what her gang are doing

491
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:34.440
is sort of effectively outing people as Zion.

492
00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:37.799
So, I mean, yes, there's the more, it is that sort of thing is, yes

493
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.259
it's okay to have all these Muslims here, provided they just, you

494
00:23:40.259 --> 00:23:43.500
know, behave and don't, you know, don't, and assimilate and

495
00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:44.700
basically we can't really tell.

496
00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:47.579
So I actually think, and I'm not saying... not allowed to wear a

497
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:48.299
heat type or whatever.

498
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:49.440
Exactly, exactly.

499
00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:50.460
And yeah.

500
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:52.859
And so I was reading it from a gay point of view rather than

501
00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:53.579
Muslim point of view.

502
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.279
But whatever it is, any kind of outsider, the kind of thing that

503
00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.519
the best way to get along with everyone is to hide your true self

504
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.839
and I think that is unfortunate.

505
00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:01.980
Yeah.

506
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:06.000
And I think that that's why it doesn't actually properly work as a

507
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.019
parable or some kind of commentary on Muslim migration.

508
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:13.500
And I think what it's just using is things plucked from the

509
00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:20.099
headlines in order to create a big, massive scale, um, uh, you

510
00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:24.000
know, change to the status quo on earth in the sort of Doctor Who

511
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.579
universe for precisely that reason.

512
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:32.160
It is, you know, the idea that, you know, body would be right, I

513
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:38.160
think, to have grievances about not being allowed to be herself or

514
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.759
you know, not being acceptable unless you changed wholeheartedly

515
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.039
to look exactly like the people who are already here.

516
00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:50.460
So if we take that to its logical end, what do we then think of

517
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:54.299
Bonnie changing her mind and deciding that that is the way to go?

518
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.660
Well, because I think that, yeah.

519
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.140
Is it is it Peter Harness, he keeps writing stories that then

520
00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:05.640
susceptible to all sorts of unpleasant interpretations like the

521
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.200
abortion kind of thing in Kill the Moon, which again, we didn't

522
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:11.160
think was actually there.

523
00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:14.400
No, killing is unpleasant for a variety of other reasons.

524
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:15.059
So yeah.

525
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:16.980
Unpleasant is not the right word for it.

526
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.319
You're giving it too much credence, Peter, by calling it up

527
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:19.619
please.

528
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:22.559
I think what's really great.

529
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:24.539
And of course, we have to talk about it.

530
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.640
It's around about 10 minutes long.

531
00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:33.000
The Capoldi speech at the end, and I think it's really amazing, and

532
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.799
I think he manages to pull it off. you know, and he may just about

533
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:42.240
be one of the very, very few doctors who could ever have pulled

534
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:44.339
off something like that.

535
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.420
I mean, the 10 minute speech is nearly half a classic series

536
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:49.019
episode.

537
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:50.160
It is.

538
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:52.619
I think it actually goes on too long and I also think it sort of

539
00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:53.279
repeats it.

540
00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:55.500
But basically because I think it repeats itself effectively.

541
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.180
Yeah, he kind of does the speech.

542
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.119
There's kind of, it's kind of the same speech rewritten and done

543
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:00.480
again.

544
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:04.259
But having said that, I think it's absolutely superb. absolutely

545
00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:04.980
superb.

546
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:07.859
I think you sort of, you needed the reiteration of that because

547
00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:10.019
it's so important to the story.

548
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:14.460
But also I came to it wanting to be a little bit like, oh, this

549
00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:18.240
isn't as good as people say it is because people, Lord, this

550
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:22.380
speech so much as being a definitive doctor and Capaldi moment, but

551
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:22.980
actually it is.

552
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.519
It is exceptionally well written and exceptionally well

553
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:27.000
delivered.

554
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:30.119
And I do think there are other doctors who could have done it.

555
00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:33.720
I think Peter Davidson could have made a well-prepared meal of

556
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.500
this speech. and Tom Baker goes to a dog's breakfast.

557
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.720
And Tom Baker.

558
00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:40.500
Certainly could of.

559
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.460
But there's something in it which plays to Capaldi's strengths of

560
00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:47.880
being able to look like he is extemporising.

561
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:49.619
It's just amazing.

562
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:51.480
How do you think Sylvester McCoy would have performed it?

563
00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:54.299
Yeah, lots of spittle.

564
00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:56.160
I agree with you.

565
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:57.299
The speech is brilliant.

566
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.440
And I don't think it overstays it's welcome because he is arguing

567
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:06.599
for the existence of the human race and the Zigon race.

568
00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:08.819
He's arguing to try and stop a war.

569
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:12.900
He's, you know, he is emphatic is, you know, he's arguing for

570
00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:14.640
existence in a way.

571
00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:20.819
And so going back to it and trying to convince these people, the

572
00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:22.619
repetition needs to be there.

573
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.920
And to be a cogent argument, it needs to be made eloquently and to

574
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.980
be made eloquently, it needs to actually drill right down, which

575
00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:29.339
it does.

576
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:35.099
And he convinces he convinces Kate 1st and then convinces Bonnie

577
00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:35.400
as well.

578
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:39.839
And that fabulous lion where he says to Bonnie, I'm trying to

579
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:41.160
convince you, and I'm almost there.

580
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.119
I think the best line, and Capoli absolutely nails it.

581
00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:48.420
And it's a real proper insight where you kind of think, oh yes, I

582
00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:51.359
hadn't really thought of that before. is we're going to end up

583
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:54.900
where we were always going to end up sitting down talking about

584
00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:55.200
it.

585
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:58.259
And now we have to decide whether we're just going to kill a lot

586
00:27:58.259 --> 00:28:02.579
of people 1st and then do the talking and you just sort of think

587
00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:08.940
yes, you know, that absolutely nails, what is so kind of weird and

588
00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:13.140
horrifying about war is that it just ends up with the 2 people at

589
00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:13.619
the table.

590
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.839
I could have just, we could have skipped that step.

591
00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:17.940
I mean, I think it's incredible.

592
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:23.339
I think the downside of it is, I think it's the, uh, it's the

593
00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:27.660
Sanequa Martin Green effect, uh, if we if we're going to do a Star

594
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:31.559
Trek reference. where you discover that an actor is particularly

595
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:35.099
good at a particular thing and then you just make them do it over

596
00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:36.900
and over and over again.

597
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:39.839
Is that for the children?

598
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:41.400
children, they can know your name.

599
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:45.960
That speech where poor Peter Capaldi is hurling himself around the

600
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:50.339
set at the end of twice upon a time, a similar speech where he

601
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:54.359
spends 10 minutes mansplaining to Jody Whittaker, how to be the

602
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:56.339
doctor, and they should listen to it.

603
00:28:56.339 --> 00:29:00.599
So tedious, and so bad, and he's doing everything he can to try

604
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:01.319
and rescue it.

605
00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:02.220
I think it's a shame.

606
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:07.079
It's because that's a grandstanding speech in aid of nothing.

607
00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:10.079
This is a resolution to a two-part story.

608
00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:13.079
The other thing that's great about that speech in that sequence is

609
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:15.900
because, I mean, it's so intrinsically Doctor Who in terms of, you

610
00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:18.059
know, this is the message of pieces is the message of, you know

611
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:21.900
tolerance getting along, seeing difference and understanding it

612
00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:23.579
but also it's the thing about forgiveness.

613
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.519
As he says, you know, the way these, you know, wars escalate and

614
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:28.980
conflicts escalators because, you know, you bombed my village

615
00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:30.839
therefore I'm going to bomb your village. therefore, okay, well

616
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:32.940
this time I'm going to take out the entire city and then next time

617
00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:35.160
I'm going to exterminate the entire race, et cetera.

618
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.319
And it just keeps building and building and escalating.

619
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:40.140
But, and this goes back to sort of what I've mentioned before when

620
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:42.359
Doctor Who has tried to touch on other issues.

621
00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:45.539
The refreshing thing is it is trying to do Northern Ireland and

622
00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.000
Israel, Palestine, and all those sorts of things, without actually

623
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.099
doing them, without explicitly.

624
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:53.460
It's doing Muslim immigration, without actually doing Muslim

625
00:29:53.460 --> 00:29:53.940
immigration.

626
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.539
Do you know what I mean?

627
00:29:54.660 --> 00:29:57.119
That's the whole point of having something like Doctor Who is that

628
00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.160
you can tell it through allegory and through parallels.

629
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:03.180
And without some massive speech about naming an asteroid at the

630
00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:03.359
end.

631
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:04.440
Exactly.

632
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:07.140
I think the speech is amazing.

633
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.680
I also think the new cruel people part of the speech, you know

634
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.440
that it's just you're going to be cruel to these people and

635
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.480
they're going to be cruel back to you and we'll have a whole group

636
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:16.680
of new cruel people.

637
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:19.079
Yeah, exactly, which is so...

638
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:19.980
The vicious cycle.

639
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:20.519
Yeah, exactly.

640
00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:23.400
And I think it nails that and that's the most important message.

641
00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:26.039
And even though I think it's overlong, I don't think it's laboured

642
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:26.579
from the point of view.

643
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.220
I don't feel like I don't feel like I'm being preached at.

644
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:31.019
No, absolutely not.

645
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:32.579
I hate it when I'm being preached at.

646
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.380
Oh, for God's sake, yes, we know, we know.

647
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.920
Whereas even though, yes, we know and we already agree with what

648
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.680
he's saying and we don't need to be convinced, I still get

649
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:41.940
absolutely swept along by it.

650
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:46.079
Because it makes you think about war in a way that you may not

651
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:47.460
have intellectualised in the past.

652
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:52.380
And the key thing is, okay, so once you've won the piece, what are

653
00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:53.279
you going to do with it?

654
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:54.900
What's your plan for the piece?

655
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:55.500
don't have one.

656
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:56.339
You just want to win.

657
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.980
Isn't it a bit large for the 6 of you here?

658
00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:01.740
Yeah, yes, absolutely.

659
00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:04.619
But now we have 20 million.

660
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:06.240
Pretty good.

661
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.160
It's also a bit large for 20 million.

662
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.259
Yeah, that is quite true.

663
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:14.819
Can I just talk about another aspect which I always love about

664
00:31:14.819 --> 00:31:15.420
villains?

665
00:31:15.539 --> 00:31:18.660
I mentioned this about the master, which is why I think, you know

666
00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:22.500
Missy is so much more successful than John Sim, is the fact that

667
00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:27.119
when Clara is Bonnie, She's just that little bit more well

668
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:27.119
dressed.

669
00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.220
She walks with that little bit great astride.

670
00:31:29.339 --> 00:31:30.960
Her hair is that little bit more immaculate.

671
00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:33.480
The makeup is that little bit more full.

672
00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:35.039
It's like villain.

673
00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:36.240
She looks more smug than Clara.

674
00:31:36.299 --> 00:31:36.779
That's the thing.

675
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:38.400
He's that thing of villains.

676
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.180
Hard to achieve, too.

677
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:42.960
It's that thing of villains always being more sophisticated, more

678
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.539
suave than the normal version.

679
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.599
But the other thing is when Clara comes out of the pod when

680
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:50.279
they're in the black archive.

681
00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:53.339
She's all completely dishevelled in one shot and then it cuts to

682
00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:56.339
something and comes back and she's suddenly virtually immaculate.

683
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.039
Like she's, she's got, she's got a hairbrush out of it.

684
00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:01.440
She took her handbag into the pod with her.

685
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:07.799
I mean, I love how she looks more natural than Bonnie in the

686
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:10.259
scenes where they're talking to one another from inside.

687
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.779
That's because she's just gotten out of bed and is it a single

688
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:13.140
time?

689
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:13.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

690
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:16.619
She hasn't put that makeup on because I think last week I was

691
00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:20.220
struck by how differently she was made up and that's clearly so

692
00:32:20.220 --> 00:32:23.099
that Bonnie can look like that in episode two.

693
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:26.700
But I thought it was a little bit of a shame given that Clara

694
00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:30.539
hadn't been kind of substituted before the episode began because

695
00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:32.640
we clearly start in place, don't we?

696
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:37.619
But there's a very clear moment where when you watch episode two

697
00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:40.980
you realise that that signalling that she has now been taken over

698
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:43.319
where Bonnie puts her hair up.

699
00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:44.400
Yeah, yeah.

700
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.759
She, like, ties her hair up in a ponytail.

701
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:54.359
And so from then on, the Bonnie Clara is the Clara with her hair

702
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:54.720
up.

703
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:57.839
And so it's a very specific moment there.

704
00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:00.539
I do love calling her Zigella.

705
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.279
Yeah, great.

706
00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:06.900
But also, whenever they mention Bonnie, does not your fan gene

707
00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:07.319
tingle?

708
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:09.660
Oh, yeah, a little bit.

709
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:12.240
It is actually interesting, though, that even though Bonnie wants

710
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.440
to live as her true Zigon self, she calls herself Bonnie rather

711
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.000
than a Zigon name?

712
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:19.440
Like, what's his igon name then?

713
00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:20.099
Yeah.

714
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:21.539
What psycho names do we have?

715
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:22.799
We just have Broton, don't we?

716
00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:24.059
Sister Lamont?

717
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:25.859
Your sister Lambert is...

718
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:27.839
That is...

719
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.160
It's actually psychon word.

720
00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:30.539
Not many people know that.

721
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:31.500
That is spelled.

722
00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:34.859
Yeah.

723
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:36.000
She's got an apostrophe.

724
00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:39.480
If it was a new adventures novel, there'd be like 3 apostrophes in

725
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:40.319
eight.

726
00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:42.180
Do you like that from Terror of the Zygons?

727
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.279
It's Flowers of the Forest, Lamont for the dead.

728
00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:45.299
Oh my god.

729
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.420
You know, the thing in the speech that I like is the American Game

730
00:34:00.420 --> 00:34:04.079
Show host thing, because, yes, it's really great.

731
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:06.779
It is a game show.

732
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.000
Well, that's probably the, but I don't like about it.

733
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.159
So, yeah, just what they've got most depressed, yeah.

734
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:12.239
It's all speaker box, right?

735
00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:13.199
But also that thing.

736
00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:19.800
Not just that, the whole thing is, you know, that game show that

737
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.380
they reference in the episode was a real game show.

738
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:25.980
That town was named for that game show.

739
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:31.559
And that game show included an element, which was a box that was

740
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:36.420
opened and you didn't know until after you'd pressed the buttons

741
00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:37.800
what your prize was.

742
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.360
So it's actually, I'm surprised they weren't sued.

743
00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:44.280
They got away with happiness, Patrol, for God's sake.

744
00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:49.320
Yeah, only just, like, the idea that it is a game as well.

745
00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:50.280
Like, that's the other thing.

746
00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:53.820
Like he's setting up, he's saying, no, no, these boxes, what they

747
00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:57.300
are, is a microcosm of what war is like.

748
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.639
You don't know what the outcome is.

749
00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:01.260
So you get 2 possible outcomes.

750
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:03.840
You just press a button at random because they're not labelled and

751
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:06.179
you've got no control over what the outcome's going to be.

752
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:12.300
Kate's ones are directed against people, like either we blow up

753
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:15.900
London with a nuclear bomb under the black archive that we had in

754
00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:20.699
Day of the Doctor, or the Zygons all become human and lose their

755
00:35:20.699 --> 00:35:21.780
ability to change.

756
00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:24.900
And then Bonnie's got ones that concern the Zygons.

757
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:29.039
You know, she gets what she wants or she gets all the zygons to be

758
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:29.400
killed.

759
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:31.019
And I think that's really great.

760
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:36.659
And I do think too, the moment where Bonnie realises that the

761
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:41.159
doctor hasn't actually set this up because of course he has.

762
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:41.880
Of course he hasn't.

763
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:45.179
The nuclear bomb, the gas that's going to kill them all. yeah.

764
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:47.159
Yeah, I mean, the nuclear bomb was already there.

765
00:35:47.219 --> 00:35:49.500
It was planted there by Kate, remember, and it was the one that

766
00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:52.440
they, you know, they lose their memory and they have to do the

767
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:52.800
countdown.

768
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:53.699
That's right.

769
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:54.480
Yes, yes, yes.

770
00:35:54.539 --> 00:35:57.179
And they both countermand the order at the same time.

771
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:02.579
But the, like, the other thing that I think is really interesting

772
00:36:02.579 --> 00:36:07.380
and weird and it's thrown away is that this is the 15th time this

773
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:07.920
has happened.

774
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:10.559
Yeah, that's just wonderful.

775
00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:15.179
And it's prescient for, you know, heaven's sent coming up in a

776
00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:15.659
very small way.

777
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:19.320
Although the implication is that Kate's agreed to have her memory

778
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:21.960
wiped each time where she quite clearly doesn't agree to have her

779
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:25.260
memory wiped this time because he just flashes the whole thing.

780
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:26.880
All of that.

781
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.880
I mean, that was so clever that was so brilliant. brilliant.

782
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.460
Because, I mean, it's done in Day of the Doctor, and it's a kind

783
00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:33.539
of joke, isn't it?

784
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:37.079
That poor bastard who turns up to work every day and thinks it's

785
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:38.400
his 1st day.

786
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:40.980
He's been there for like 10 years or whatever.

787
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:43.320
He just gets memory wiped on the way out the door.

788
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:48.840
But this where, like, it's just saying that this is a constant

789
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:51.900
thing, a constant thing that needs vigilance.

790
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:53.760
It's not something you do once.

791
00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:58.500
You don't just once decide that you're not going to become the

792
00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:02.159
next generation of new cruel people, that you have to keep

793
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:03.719
deciding it over and over again.

794
00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:04.559
I thought it was really good.

795
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:05.820
It's not just a funny line.

796
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:07.440
You have to keep choosing peace.

797
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:11.940
Isn't the depressing thing, though, that it's going to keep

798
00:37:11.940 --> 00:37:12.239
happening.

799
00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:15.119
Like if it's happened for 15 times, it's going to happen for 16, 17

800
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:18.480
18 And it's almost like, isn't it better if they didn't have their

801
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:20.639
memories wiped so they actually learnt from the mistake?

802
00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:23.639
Yeah, I guess so.

803
00:37:23.699 --> 00:37:26.820
But I think, like, because part of the war thing is we remember

804
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:27.659
how horrible it was.

805
00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.000
Yes, and that's why we try not to do it.

806
00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:32.219
And that's why we prevent war for at least a little while until

807
00:37:32.219 --> 00:37:35.039
those people die in the beginning, et cetera, et cetera.

808
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:38.760
I mean, the idea is so that we can keep using the Osgood box.

809
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:41.699
Again, he doesn't have to come up with a better idea next time. yes

810
00:37:41.699 --> 00:37:42.179
yes, yes.

811
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:44.760
So the Osgood box, I think, is really great.

812
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:49.800
We see it introduced in that video with the 2 Osgoods, which is in

813
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:53.519
black and white for no reason other than making sure we don't know

814
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:55.079
there's a red one and a blue one.

815
00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:58.139
Did you see that?

816
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.380
And then she has that big, cheap, horrible laptop that she smashes

817
00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:02.519
up, which I quite enjoyed.

818
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:07.139
And then, you know, you should, of course, it's the Osgood box

819
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:08.519
because there's 2 of them.

820
00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:12.840
Like no one understood that the Osgood box was about playing out

821
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:16.739
the war in minuscule in microcosm at some point.

822
00:38:16.860 --> 00:38:17.940
Yeah.

823
00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:21.360
I like the way the Ozgood boxes are sort of stored in the black

824
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:23.699
archive by sitting at either end of a long table.

825
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:26.460
Like that's just, they're not kept in kind of a stack.

826
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:27.900
They're just sitting on a table.

827
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.960
Yeah, I gather the doctor, they can't go in there anymore.

828
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:34.739
So unit can't go in there and use it, the doctor.

829
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:35.460
Siled off.

830
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:35.820
Yeah.

831
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:36.300
Okay.

832
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:39.420
Do you see in the background, by the way, there's a helmet from

833
00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:41.579
the dreadful Viking one.

834
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:43.559
Is it the Maya?

835
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.480
I thought it was the helmet from the, is it what it's called?

836
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:46.440
Yeah, they call the Mulmeyer.

837
00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:49.860
So those monsters there, that exists purely for war.

838
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:55.800
Like those monsters are mercenaries and all they do is make war.

839
00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:59.219
And so we've got that like in the centre of the shot.

840
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.579
And I was just kind of wondering who was doing that because like

841
00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:07.079
harness can't be riding this with knowledge of what's happening in

842
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:10.199
episode 5 or whatever.

843
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.659
No, will have been the props person having a really bright idea.

844
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.679
Or me snuck in and left it there.

845
00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:19.260
I mean, I think it is good, isn't it?

846
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:21.659
Because it does remind you of that.

847
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:24.480
Like, it is clearly just an emblem emblem of war.

848
00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:26.699
They should have had the helmet of fear on there.

849
00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:29.940
I didn't see this an emblem of war.

850
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.980
I just saw it as an emblem of a, he's a prop from a previous

851
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:34.320
episode in the same way that, you know, because, you know, the

852
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.380
black archive is the repository of all this alien tech and this

853
00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:38.880
has obviously been found in Norway.

854
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:41.820
That's a very specific prop to have front and centre.

855
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.980
Yeah, I think I think it has to be.

856
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:45.000
It is, you're quite correct, yes.

857
00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:47.699
I think it has to be trying to say something about the episode

858
00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:49.320
which I think is, you know, pretty good.

859
00:39:49.380 --> 00:39:52.739
And it's always that thing with Doctor Who, isn't it?

860
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:57.059
Because every episode happens somewhere completely different.

861
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:00.900
You have to go to special lengths to make it seem like it's all

862
00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:02.280
taking place in the same world.

863
00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:05.940
So I thought that that was kind of good, I guess.

864
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.940
Yeah, because they steal the helmet, don't they?

865
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:13.139
They actually steal the helmets from the mire in the girl who

866
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:13.679
died.

867
00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:17.820
They have like electromagnets run by the eels and the helmets come

868
00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:25.199
off the top of them and she's wearing that helmet when she dies.

869
00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:29.880
So a shield has got that helmet on when she dies, I think.

870
00:40:29.940 --> 00:40:32.280
And of course, Shilder will be back in 2 weeks.

871
00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:34.619
So it's a reference to that, I think.

872
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.579
But associating that episode with this episode does not make the

873
00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:39.179
other episode better.

874
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:41.820
In fact it might make this episode marginally worse.

875
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.099
Yes, because it just brings back, it just brings back unhappy

876
00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:47.460
memories.

877
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:50.940
Also, I can't think of Maya without thinking, do they have

878
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:51.420
beasts?

879
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:52.860
Do they have Maya Beasts?

880
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:54.119
Yes, exactly.

881
00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:54.420
Yes.

882
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:56.579
When you said Maya, I thought, no, that's from something else.

883
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:14.219
So, can we talk about the two parter aspect of it, or let's just

884
00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:17.880
say the modern naming convention of two parties, because I know

885
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:20.159
they want to link them together by having one called the Zygon

886
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:22.440
Invasion, and the other called the Zygon Inversion, but I just

887
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.599
can't help but thinking there might be a better way of doing

888
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:24.840
this.

889
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:29.039
If only they could just have one title and call one of them

890
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:31.139
something like, oh, I don't know, part one.

891
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.420
And the 2nd one something like part two.

892
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:36.599
And then we'd have to stop using terms like the Salurian 2

893
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:37.079
parter.

894
00:41:37.139 --> 00:41:40.139
Oh, the 2 part of that open season eight, 2 part of it's this.

895
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:40.440
You know?

896
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:41.940
Simon, do you mean like the end of time?

897
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:44.099
For example, I mean, goodness me.

898
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:46.800
But we, what about the 19th...

899
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.340
Oh, my God, Russell, Simon, you're erasing the 1960s.

900
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:51.659
My goodness.

901
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.000
If Russell T. Davies has allowed himself to call something part

902
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:54.900
one on a cut part two.

903
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:56.880
Therefore, it must be breaking the rules there, though.

904
00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:58.980
I really, really like Simon.

905
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:00.360
At least in the 1960s.

906
00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:03.420
I really, really liked that Russell was actually going to call the

907
00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:05.219
1st part of the end of time something different.

908
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.940
He actually teased it in DWM. and he said, it's a 6 word title, and

909
00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:12.239
it was meant to be the last days of Planet Earth, but it ended up

910
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.539
being the end of time, part one. end of one.

911
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.320
The most self-contradictory title of any Doctor Who story.

912
00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:23.219
But isn't it, but isn't it funny, though, that we're quite happy

913
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:27.719
calling all of these Hartnell stories by a single title rather

914
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:31.440
than the three-part of that open season 2 or the 6 parter on

915
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:31.860
Vortus?

916
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.679
We call them the web planet or whatever.

917
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:38.820
Whereas we've never been able to agree on in the modern era that

918
00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:43.019
we're just going to call this, the Zygon invasion, or we're just

919
00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:43.739
going to call...

920
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:48.119
I think that people do default to calling them by the title of the

921
00:42:48.119 --> 00:42:48.780
1st episode.

922
00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:50.940
Yeah, quite alternated. yeah And so does.

923
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:54.360
Ah, yes, but not without not without the suffix.

924
00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:57.059
So and so does the target novelisation.

925
00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.820
Ah, it calls it the Zygon invasion.

926
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:00.659
Yes.

927
00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:05.820
So, episode 2 was actually originally going to be called truth or

928
00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:06.420
consequences.

929
00:43:06.539 --> 00:43:10.019
Yeah, I would have actually preferred that because they do want to

930
00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:11.400
parallel all of them, don't they?

931
00:43:11.460 --> 00:43:14.099
So we've got the magician's apprentice, the witch is familiar

932
00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:15.960
under the lake before the flood.

933
00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:17.400
Like, they're the same structure and stuff.

934
00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:19.500
Yep, sleep no more face the raven.

935
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:19.800
Yep.

936
00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:22.320
Yeah, they're not.

937
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.539
That's not really...

938
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:28.260
I do like that conceit, but I think it's a bit misplaced in this

939
00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:32.820
two-parter, Simon. is that I think the general public has scoped

940
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:33.420
to be confused.

941
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:34.500
It's so similar.

942
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:38.219
Zygon invasion, Zygon inversion, that would they have just thought

943
00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:40.559
it was the same episode if they were looking at that week's radio

944
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:40.860
time?

945
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:42.239
Well, I think they care.

946
00:43:42.300 --> 00:43:43.920
No one really knows what the title is.

947
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:45.179
They don't care what the title is.

948
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:47.880
The Doctor Who's one of the very few programs that actually has an

949
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:49.019
on-screen episode time.

950
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.920
Yeah, noticed that the new Star Trek don't, except for the

951
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:54.059
animated ones.

952
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:55.260
So lower decks.

953
00:43:55.260 --> 00:43:55.980
Oh, really?

954
00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:56.519
Prodigy.

955
00:43:56.579 --> 00:43:59.340
No on-screen titles, the Picard or...

956
00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:00.539
Complete with the inverted commas.

957
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:01.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

958
00:44:01.739 --> 00:44:04.920
Well, Picard feels more like it progresses from one episode to the

959
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:05.159
next.

960
00:44:05.219 --> 00:44:07.139
Although, just so strangely, Wells doesn't have onscreen episode

961
00:44:07.139 --> 00:44:07.559
titles.

962
00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:07.980
No.

963
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:08.940
No that's disappointing.

964
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:14.159
But anyway, point being that it's annoyed me for about the last, I

965
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.579
don't know, 18 years and it would probably continue to annoy me

966
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:18.840
for a while yet.

967
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:20.760
I kind of like the idea.

968
00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:22.500
And I think I said this at the time.

969
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:27.539
It's one of the reasons why we don't do the 2 parters as one

970
00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:28.260
episode.

971
00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:32.400
That's why we're discussing the Zygon inversion this week, is that

972
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:35.699
separately, I think that the unit of storytelling then becomes the

973
00:44:35.699 --> 00:44:39.059
season rather than a story.

974
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:42.659
And the idea of a story, at least when we sort of projected back

975
00:44:42.659 --> 00:44:47.400
onto the 1960s, doesn't quite work in a way.

976
00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:50.820
When you think about like the arc or the Daleks masterplant that

977
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:55.800
do weird things with the idea that there's a four-part story or

978
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:56.639
written by the same person.

979
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:01.260
But nevertheless, they still, you know, there's still a sense of

980
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:03.539
it being one set of things.

981
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:05.400
And I think that's one of the things. yeah, one thing.

982
00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:09.719
Even if in the arc, they, you know, you could argue that it's 22

983
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:10.320
putt stories.

984
00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:14.400
Well, no, not really. you know, it's much more different to having

985
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:16.559
say, I can space followed by some tyran experiment.

986
00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:17.219
Yes, they're linked.

987
00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:19.860
And, you know, I mean, that's the thing I really loved about the

988
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:22.739
that's what set Doctor Who apart from me back in the day as a kid

989
00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:24.480
was that it was completely different to every other television

990
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:28.800
show because it neither just had self-contained episodes, nor did

991
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:32.340
it have this continuous, never-ending story where, which never

992
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:35.039
quite resolve, or at least takes forever to resolve.

993
00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:37.139
Anyway, that's my old beef.

994
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:39.659
It was the only series that was made by the Department of series

995
00:45:39.659 --> 00:45:42.239
and serials that was actually a series and a serial.

996
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:43.619
Yeah, and I think I think.

997
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:44.519
Yeah, yeah.

998
00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:45.659
Episodic serial?

999
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.980
What a John Tullet title. episodic serial series. stupid.

1000
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:51.179
But I think it's a problem.

1001
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:54.360
And obviously you can't do it now because most of the time you're

1002
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.059
tuning in for a quarter of a story when you watch Doctor Who.

1003
00:45:57.059 --> 00:46:04.079
And two-parters always, the 2nd part always is outrated by the 1st

1004
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:05.280
part pretty much.

1005
00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:10.199
And in fact, I think Moffatt, when he did series 7, said, look, we

1006
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:13.739
lose a couple of 1000000 viewers for part 2 all the time.

1007
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:19.139
So I'm going to do a series of just single part stories for series

1008
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:20.219
7.

1009
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:22.800
And then he does his usual thing where it's just like, oh, but now

1010
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:23.699
I'm going to do the opposite.

1011
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.139
Now I'm going to do it.

1012
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.260
But I think that was true in 2005, and I think it probably was

1013
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:29.400
also true in 2015.

1014
00:46:29.579 --> 00:46:32.820
But I don't think it's true now because even broadcast television

1015
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:36.000
people consume, you know, they either decide to watch a series or

1016
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:36.480
they don't.

1017
00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:39.539
And I mean, I know there are some strange freaky people out there

1018
00:46:39.539 --> 00:46:41.940
who just turn on the television and watch whatever's on, but we

1019
00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:43.260
don't care about those people.

1020
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:44.760
I want to talk to discerning people.

1021
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:47.099
If you decided to watch Doctor Who.

1022
00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:49.019
You're probably not even watching it when it goes out.

1023
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:52.559
You're watching on a BBC iPlayer or ABC iview or whatever else the

1024
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:53.400
streaming service it is.

1025
00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:55.260
That's the way people consume this now.

1026
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:58.860
So I think the arguments that are made now for why the series has

1027
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.659
to be the way it is. no longer relevant.

1028
00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:03.360
So no on-screen titles when it comes back is what we want.

1029
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:07.440
No, because that's not here and there. a completely separate.

1030
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:10.440
So that's completely important to the thing.

1031
00:47:10.500 --> 00:47:12.179
Well, well, you know, well, actually, no, you don't even need

1032
00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:13.860
onscreen titles because what are you doing?

1033
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:14.639
You're going to an app.

1034
00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:16.980
You find it, you're scrolling the time and you're pressing play.

1035
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:18.960
It has the title and you press play.

1036
00:47:19.019 --> 00:47:20.760
So whether it appears on screen.

1037
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:22.260
It doesn't appear on screen.

1038
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:24.300
It just appears on screen in a different way.

1039
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:28.380
Although a small part of me would die if they didn't have on

1040
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:29.039
screen titles.

1041
00:47:29.460 --> 00:47:33.360
Is that the reason why Doctor Who's ratings, even though they've

1042
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:37.019
been very high at times, tend to fluctuate more than drama series

1043
00:47:37.019 --> 00:47:41.219
because more than most drama series, is because people are still

1044
00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:43.980
locked into that idea that you can dip in and out of Doctor Who.

1045
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:46.440
You'll get a new story every episode or every 2 episodes.

1046
00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:47.519
It's an anthology.

1047
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:47.820
Yeah.

1048
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.380
All right, it's part 2 of a two-part story, the Zygon invasion two

1049
00:47:57.659 --> 00:47:58.739
parter, in fact.

1050
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:01.920
And so we're going to do...

1051
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:03.780
Just the Zigon 2 party.

1052
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:06.179
So it's time for peaks of the week.

1053
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:07.920
Simon, do you want to start us off?

1054
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:12.420
Well, Peter did actually mention it earlier in the conversation

1055
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:15.599
but I thought it's worth formalising as a pick of the week, and

1056
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:17.340
that is Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

1057
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:22.440
And I'm talking about the original 1956 film, which has got a bit

1058
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.719
of a different moral of the story compared to what we're looking

1059
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:25.079
at here.

1060
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:27.539
I'd encourage people to go back and see it.

1061
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.960
It's actually really well-made film and a lot of Doctor Who, as

1062
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.420
was pointed out, whether it's faceless ones, tear up the zigons

1063
00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:36.059
does, oh, its existence to invasion of the body snatches.

1064
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:36.780
It's really well done.

1065
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:40.980
Basically, aliens are gradually replacing people in this town with

1066
00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:44.940
carbon copies, then take the role of that person and go about

1067
00:48:44.940 --> 00:48:45.960
their daily lives.

1068
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.500
However, back then in 956, it was more an expression about Cold

1069
00:48:49.500 --> 00:48:54.179
War paranoia, communist infiltration and so on rather than, you

1070
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:56.340
know, tolerance necessarily.

1071
00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:01.199
But, I mean, the most famous scene, and this is not a spoiler

1072
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:04.079
because it's a very famous piece of cinema where, you know, he

1073
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:07.800
feels like he's the only one left at the end who is a human being

1074
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:11.280
and he's running around the streets like a crazy person going

1075
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:12.480
they're already here.

1076
00:49:12.539 --> 00:49:15.539
They're already here and everyone's just looking at him going, well

1077
00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:15.900
who's that?

1078
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:18.599
Well, that's because everybody else are the aliens and he's the

1079
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:19.800
only human left.

1080
00:49:19.860 --> 00:49:21.780
But it's really, really good.

1081
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:25.019
And I'd encourage you to look at the 1956 film, not the subsequent

1082
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:27.059
I think it's said late 70s remake.

1083
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.139
Brilliant.

1084
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:28.920
James?

1085
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:32.099
I recently watched Marvel's secret invasion.

1086
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:32.820
Ooh.

1087
00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:35.159
Which is quite enjoyable.

1088
00:49:35.219 --> 00:49:37.320
I have not read the comic book.

1089
00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:39.360
I could ask my husband if it was any good.

1090
00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:40.980
But I haven't.

1091
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.860
No, I quite enjoyed it.

1092
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:49.679
I think in many ways this Doctor Who story, either consciously or

1093
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:55.320
unconsciously borrows a lot from that original comic book, and

1094
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:59.099
obviously Invasion of the Body Snatchers as well, but I think and

1095
00:49:59.099 --> 00:50:05.159
not wanting to spoil what happens in that TV show, the genoure of

1096
00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:08.519
this story is a better resolution to the plot.

1097
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:09.059
Okay.

1098
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:12.719
My pick of the week might be Barbenheimer.

1099
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:18.360
Because I don't know, this just puts me in mind of the

1100
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:22.320
Barbenheimer experience that was a short-lived social phenomenon

1101
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:26.880
because Oppenheimer is, of course, about war and the end of the

1102
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.059
world and mutually assured destruction and, you know, how are we

1103
00:50:30.059 --> 00:50:30.900
going to win the piece?

1104
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:35.219
Whereas Barbie is about plundering an iconic property and doing it

1105
00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:37.920
with affection and knowingly, which maybe this episode does with

1106
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:38.519
the Zigons.

1107
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:39.599
I drawing a long bow here?

1108
00:50:39.659 --> 00:50:40.139
No.

1109
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:42.659
Yeah, go watch both.

1110
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:46.860
Well, my peaks of the week. so far this season have all been Star

1111
00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:47.760
Trek related.

1112
00:50:47.820 --> 00:50:52.559
So I am instead going to say that I think this week or last week I

1113
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:57.780
finished the 2nd series of Heartstopper, which is based on a

1114
00:50:57.780 --> 00:51:01.019
series of graphic novels, which are still kind of being

1115
00:51:01.019 --> 00:51:01.500
published.

1116
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:03.900
I think the last one is due out in December.

1117
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:05.039
It's very lovely.

1118
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:06.420
It's terribly sweet.

1119
00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:11.280
And it has Olivia Coleman as one of the main characters, mothers

1120
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:12.719
which is pretty awesome.

1121
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:13.920
The best mother ever.

1122
00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:15.539
She's so great.

1123
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:16.679
I wish she was my mother.

1124
00:51:16.739 --> 00:51:17.280
She so awesome.

1125
00:51:17.340 --> 00:51:22.260
And Yasmin Finney, who would be playing, we've discovered Rose

1126
00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:27.960
Noble. in the upcoming 60th anniversary specials.

1127
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.139
I wonder why she chose her mother's surname instead of her

1128
00:51:31.139 --> 00:51:31.559
father.

1129
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:34.139
That could be Rose Temple Noble.

1130
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:36.000
Rose Noble Temple.

1131
00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:02.519
Well, then, now, that's all the time we have for this week.

1132
00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:06.480
We'll be back next week to try and find some other aspect of human

1133
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.179
life to monetise, in sleep no more.

1134
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:13.860
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1135
00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:17.579
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1136
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.639
com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as

1137
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:24.539
links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain

1138
00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:27.599
maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

1139
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:32.880
Until next time, may your next birthday see you given a Ferrari

1140
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:34.619
and your own personal tailor.

1141
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:36.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1142
00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:37.679
Good night.

1143
00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:38.400
Good night.

1144
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:39.179
Bye for now.

1145
00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:40.920
Can I have a Stephen Taylor?

1146
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:49.739
That was Flight Through Entirety.

1147
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.260
Sorry, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Moore and James

1148
00:52:52.260 --> 00:52:53.039
Selwood.

1149
00:52:53.099 --> 00:52:55.739
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1150
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:58.860
This episode, Orange Babies, was recorded on the 17th of September

1151
00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:01.500
2023 and released on the 5th of November.

1152
00:53:02.219 --> 00:53:06.300
If you haven't heard enough of us for a while, and who would blame

1153
00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:09.659
you if you had, remember that we can also be heard talking about

1154
00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:13.739
Blake 7 on maximum power, a co-production with the Trap One

1155
00:53:13.739 --> 00:53:17.639
podcast, which is currently covering fan favourite series C.

1156
00:53:17.699 --> 00:53:19.320
We'll catch you over there.

1157
00:53:23.340 --> 00:53:24.960
What do you think?

1158
00:53:25.019 --> 00:53:25.619
I think we're done.

1159
00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:26.280
Yeah.

1160
00:53:26.340 --> 00:53:28.019
What do we think of Harry Sullivan?

1161
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:31.139
We said last week.

1162
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:32.639
There's no way we would have done that.

1163
00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:33.780
Yeah, we talked about that.

1164
00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:35.820
Well, maybe he did it by accident.

1165
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:36.420
Sullivan's gas.

1166
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.059
Yeah, I thought maybe that, and that was my head can and it was

1167
00:53:39.059 --> 00:53:39.780
just going to be a mistake.

1168
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:43.860
I thought he was too busy creating Twinks for knock knock next

1169
00:53:43.860 --> 00:53:44.099
season.

1170
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:46.260
Yeah, I did mention that too.

1171
00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:49.500
I did say he gets a very positive reference to make up for it in

1172
00:53:49.500 --> 00:53:52.739
series 10, where he's the grandfather of that pretty boy.

1173
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:56.280
But not the gay grandfather. completely forgot about that.

1174
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:56.880
Yeah.

1175
00:53:57.780 --> 00:53:59.760
Yeah, knock knock.

1176
00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:01.199
I love the beginning of knock knock.

1177
00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:02.099
I think it goes to hell.

1178
00:54:02.219 --> 00:54:05.159
Yeah, I love all of that.

1179
00:54:05.219 --> 00:54:06.539
The student accommodation stuff.

1180
00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:09.300
I can remember.

1181
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.500
I can remember virtually nothing got a treason store. in terms of

1182
00:54:13.500 --> 00:54:13.920
those episodes.

1183
00:54:13.980 --> 00:54:14.699
Knock, knock.

1184
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:18.900
I couldn't even, I could not, I could not even tell you what's not

1185
00:54:18.900 --> 00:54:19.320
David's about.

1186
00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:21.360
I cannot remember at all.

1187
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:25.320
Yeah I've been blue, right?

1188
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:26.280
It's still wrapped in plastic.

1189
00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:29.579
But I'm liking this season more on this run through, so that's

1190
00:54:29.579 --> 00:54:30.360
kind of...

1191
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:33.780
Isn't isn't that the 1st thing that Souche does after he finishes

1192
00:54:33.780 --> 00:54:34.320
Piro?

1193
00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:35.400
What was he thinking?

1194
00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:36.059
Yeah.

1195
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:36.840
Oh, well.

1196
00:54:36.900 --> 00:54:37.739
It's pretty good.

1197
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:39.420
Yeah, it's all right.

1198
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:41.280
Yeah, I'm going to press stop.