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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:48:38

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's been left to fend for ourselves. will be fine.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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Well, Bonnie is determined to derail the fragile piece between humans and Zygons, and the doctor has a very, very, very long speech to deliver, so we'd best be cracking on.

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It's time to discuss the Zygon inversion.

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So, we're back from the cliffhanger, quite a long sort of pre credits teaser.

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How do we think the resolution ranks alongside the cliffhangers of history?

10
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I can remember being underwhelmed by it when I watched it the 1st time, but this time I thought it was quite funny.

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If you're going to have a cliffhanger, just have a missile fired by Clara or someone looking like Clara at the doctor's plane and then it explodes. right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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We did hear the offscreen explosion at the end of the last episode before we come to the credits.

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Yes, but we didn't see it, did we?

15
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No, no.

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It is a slight sheet, but I think that's just about permissible.

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I like it when the reprises are a little bit different.

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And I think, I mean, so we get a co-writing credit with Moffatt, and almost certainly that's the speech, don't you think?

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Absolutely.

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But I mean, this is also very moffity as well, having Clara in this sort of weird virtual reality environment or, you know, inside her own memory or inside her own flat, you know, to represent her being in the pond.

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It made me think of Forest of the Dead.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's right, with a little girl watching TV and it ends up being somewhere else that's actually real.

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Yeah, I think it's a really good realisation of how you can portray someone being trapped in something like that rather than them being like in a black or a white void.

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Yeah, but even down to the nonsense on the newspapers because that's not important to her.

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It just, the newspapers are just gibberish, but the only things that she can see are other things that attach her to reality.

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I thought the really interesting thing.

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You know, when she 1st looks at the alarm clock and the writing's either upside down, I guess it's upside down rather than...

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I think it's weird, yeah.

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But it just reminds me of getting one of these AI art creating things, you know, like Dali or something that can't do words.

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Like it just can't do words.

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It can do people in places and stuff.

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But it just can't do letters or words at all.

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And so it just seemed like an AI created reality that couldn't get the newspaper or the toothpaste, right?

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Like that really fabulously off putting toothpaste thing where it just says this is toothpaste on it.

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So it makes it dreamlike, I think.

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Charcoal toothpaste is really great actually.

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It's actually a thing, isn't it?

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Since 2015.

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It's sort of like the teachers in the peanuts just sort of being...

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No, I think that is really good.

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And I do think that the sort of things that she does.

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You know, you've got to sell Clara as smart and I think they generally manage it.

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And so he or she gets to be terribly smart, and I love her kind of moving the television in order to get the site, not to work, and then realising that if she moves her own hand that's going to start affecting how Bonnie acts.

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So I think all of that stuff is really, really great.

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And it's a natural development of that kind of relationship between the Zygon who is imprinting off Clara.

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It's something which Terror of the Saigons didn't do, but you think that should actually work.

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It's the person who is in stasis or in the pod or whatever, being able to control them back in some way.

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Yeah, I think that's right.

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And I think it's something we could never, ever have done in the 1970s.

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And one of the things that I think that this 2 parter gets right is bring back the Zygons, but do something different with them.

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Don't just get them back to do their greatest hits.

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And we talked a little bit last week about some of the changes in the Zygons that didn't quite work for us.

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But certainly, you know, changing the rules slightly.

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We saw last week and having this relationship between Bonnie and Clara works really well.

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And again, that's a very moffety thing.

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Like when he brings back the angels and the 2 parts and he sort of changes up what they're capable of and the way that they affect the characters.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it gives the angels a voice in that 2 partner.

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Yeah, but I do love the way, you know, it's actually explicitly said, you know, that was the old rules.

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This is the new rules, like they've actually said.

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Now we've just decided that it's going to work differently now, and we're kind of acknowledging that.

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Yeah.

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Well, there's that thing in the reprise where Jack says, actually, they can't be the duplicates because Zygons don't work like that.

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So there is an acknowledged set of rules because we don't know.

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I think I said last week, we don't know whether we're going to follow the rules properly or not. you know, how is this going to work?

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Are we just going to use our half remembered bits of terror of the zygons and then just sort of do something slightly different?

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But here, no, we're obeying the rules very properly.

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And Peter Harness, as I said last week, is writing this with the soundtrack to Terror of the Zygons in his headphones, apparently.

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However, that is part of the problem with the story for me.

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I think this episode is quite good.

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Last week's episode missed as much as it hit for me, and I think the main problem is the Zygons.

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It's the same problem that I had with them in Day of the Doctor, where they're really interchangeable with any shapeshifting alien race here, because the thing that makes them incredible and tear up the zigons is that alienness and that bleakness to the story and the John Wood nuttiness.

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And that is missing here.

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They look silly.

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It's the brigadier in Morden Undead.

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You can't just bring back the brigadier and pop him in the middle of a gaudy, noisy 80 story and expect that that will be fine.

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If you bring back the brigadier, you have to bring back the essence of the brigadier.

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And so it needed to be a unit story.

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It needed to be something that made you think of the pertwheat era.

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And that's my problem with this, even though I quite like the story.

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And I think the Zygons are done well in some instances.

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It's missing that essential zygonness for me.

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I think by this point we own the Zygons in the new series and now they're the monster from the day of the doctor.

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And I think that's okay.

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But we did talk a little bit again last week about the fact that the zygons aren't played by the actors who whose doubles they are.

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Big mistake.

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Yeah. and there's just 2 people.

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There's 2 men who play all of the Zygons, which is why we only ever see sort of 2 Zygons at once, except in effect shots because there are just 2 and it's just them playing the same doubles of everyone.

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Imagine if you'd got the the little girl actors in Zichon costumes, like the decimas.

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God, they would be like a decimal.

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I mean, I mean, Jenna's not that big.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, if she had been, I just can't imagine her sitting still long enough to be made up like a Zygon?

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I don't think she would have put up with it.

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They wouldn't have asked them.

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No, they just obviously wouldn't have asked her.

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But yes, I think that that is a little bit of a shame.

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The problem is that the design is immaculate.

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It was Roger Murray Leach. who designed them the 1st time, and they look incredible, and they still look incredible, but the difference between this and Terror of the Zygons is in Terror of the Zygons, they're shot in shadow and in bizarre close-up of those deep eyes and menacing Sarah in a barn.

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And that's how they work.

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Here, they're stomping around and they just look vaguely silly.

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And just going, ah, you know, it's kind of just archetypal monster.

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It's not as interesting as it could be.

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I did like this more than I did the 1st time round, I have to say, and I do think the 2nd episode is actually, and I think the 2nd episode is actually quite strong.

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The 1st episode's a bit kind of like, it's just a bit too much of a runaround for me.

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But yeah, just to echo what Pete is saying, is that I don't think it's the fact that the Zygons are, it's all very well to say that, oh, yes, you know, the new series owns them now since day of the doctor. effectively like it's a different monster, but I just, I just think that the realisation of them in the 70s is is so much better.

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It's more interesting.

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It sets them apart from other monsters and it's the, it's the creepiness and the isolation, the feeling of isolation that I think makes terror of the Zygons so powerful.

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I don't think that means you have to set this in a remote part of Scotland or something, but I think...

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Yes, or just a remote part of anywhere.

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Two of the Zygons has that sense of creeping infiltration.

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Now, I think that's that also is what makes that original story so so fantastic for me. speaking of remote locations.

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You know the cliff top, which is supposed to be the white cliffs of Dover, is actually the same location as Delta and the Bannerman.

115
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Oh, really?

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It's where the holiday camp was, like it was demolished in the mid 2000s, but it's the same location.

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And speaking of locations in general, this is very specifically set in South London, because they keep referencing places like Brockwell Park and Dulwich, but of course not shot there, and I've been to Brockwell Park many times, and it does not look like that corner of Cardiff that they shot.

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I guess what I think is great, though, is just the ambition of the premise here that we suddenly have 20000000 aliens living on Earth.

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I just think that's incredible.

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And so last week, which is a runaround, isn't it, to kind of try and establish the scale of it by taking us to New Mexico and wherever.

121
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Where else are we going?

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Turmenistan?

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Oh, yes, I made up a stand.

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Yeah, I made up a stand, which seems to somehow have a Christian church in the middle of it.

125
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Even though it's, but it would be a Muslim country.

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Well, I think that we wanted to kind of avoid that, I think, like, we talked a little bit about this last week, and obviously it kind of works as some kind of take on Muslim immigration in the UK, in particular, and, you know, other European countries and even here, and the anxiety that people felt because that was happening during a period of time where we were in conflict in various Muslim countries, and, you know, there'd been terrorism and all of that sort of thing..

127
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But I think they go out of their way not to make it about Muslims particularly.

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And so we have a sort of strange Eastern European country, I think, probably with that Christian church in the middle.

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It's just all the talk of radicalisation.

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The audience just makes the connection anyway.

131
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Yeah, that's right.

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And that's sort of interesting, isn't it?

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So you've got the idea that there are 20000000 people living among us who are quite happy living among us in a are contributing.

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There's that guy, the guy that Bonnie makes normalise and he just wants to leave.

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That's a really great part of this. really good.

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It's very strong.

137
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It's super upsetting.

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Except for those 3 kids who are sitting outside when he turns into the Zygon and they just look at him.

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They don't actually react. and background queue background queue.

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Yeah, that's really, really good, isn't it?

141
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I think.

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And properly atmospheric too.

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So we get that happening while Bonnie and Clara interacting.

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I'm going to say body and body.

145
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I keep trying not to say funny, Clyde.

146
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I would have liked that spinoff, Bonnie and Clara.

147
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But yeah, that is properly good, isn't it?

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Because it is just an ordinary person.

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The only ordinary zigon that we see and get to know in any way, and he's absolutely just happy living in England for some reason, and he just wants to live his life and he's being prevented from doing that.

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And that scene with the Saigons and their incredible design works because when the doctor comes across him and he's in that darkened kind of corner store.

151
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That's exactly where the Zygon should be placed.

152
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Like Harry in the barn.

153
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Exactly.

154
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Yes, yes, yes.

155
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The fact that he commits suicide.

156
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Is he doing that or is he?

157
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Yeah, I was trying to work that out.

158
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Is he committing suicide or is it the fact that Bonnie is sort of like it's some kind of influence of...

159
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No, I think he does kill himself.

160
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He does decide to kill himself.

161
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Yeah, yeah.

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And they can for town ruin.

163
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They can tell that he's about to do it.

164
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And there aren't that many on-screen suicides, and this is a sort of space fantasy suicide.

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Nevertheless.

166
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But still, yeah, I think it is pretty strong.

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I think it is why this episode might work better for me than last week's episode.

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It narrows down the focus.

169
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And last week's episode with the best will in the world felt a bit torchwood.

170
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It was just kind of, was trying to be global, was actually shot in Cardiff.

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Um, and it was um, a bit puerile, I think, in its politics, whereas this episode drills down on it a little bit, and goes in a little bit more and feels more consequential, and it doesn't fall into that two-part trap of having the 2nd episode just being a slightly associated riff on the 1st episode.

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It actually continues and focusses the story.

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It's got some edge to it as well. as we were just saying, with the suicide sequence.

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I think the 1st episode has to kind of justify the scale of this.

175
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It's such a big thing.

176
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And so it needs to look a bit worldwide and stuff and they do that the kind of best they can and they do go to Spain, don't they?

177
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Yes.

178
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Oh, yeah, but that's the equivalent of going to a quarry.

179
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Oh yeah, no idea.

180
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It's a very brightly lit quarry.

181
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Yeah, and lots of colour grading and all of that sort of thing.

182
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See, what we really needed was a bit of Trinity Wells.

183
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Yeah, that could have sold it.

184
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Well, except that, of course, it's not public.

185
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That's the other thing about it, is that it's kind of happened, but no one knows about it, which is kind of interesting.

186
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You're not getting the clips of BBC News apart from when the Zygon body uploads the video.

187
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Yeah.

188
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I can imagine Trinity Wells, can't you?

189
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News flash, people are turning into orange babies.

190
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I think too, because the way that guy reads, it reads like he's really grossly diseased.

191
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Do you know what I mean?

192
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Like he's got these, you know, the suckers and rough thing on his arm.

193
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He's got, like, his faces swelling up and all of that.

194
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And so he looks like that looks really effective.

195
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It's like that wonderful shot in Day of the Doctor, where Kate turns into a Zion on camera.

196
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And we never really do it that expensively in this 2 carter. particularly not, particularly not the one that's menacing Kate at the end of the previous episode, where the camera just sort of moves away and we look at Kate for a bit and then it moves back and it's aside.

197
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I really quite like that.

198
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One of the few directorial touches in this episode of Deadline.

199
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Let's do that.

200
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In episode one where they turn the little girls into the Zygon so they can kill them because of course you can't kill them.

201
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No, yeah. exact screen.

202
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

203
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Did you know that, uh, initially, the general that was in charge of the unit forces in what became Tazmenistan was supposed to be General Bambera?

204
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Oh, wow.

205
00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:41.039
You see, that would have really lifted this episode for me.

206
00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:45.000
I don't know what the, you know what it is that she wasn't there?

207
00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:45.659
It's a shame.

208
00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:53.159
We did get Rebecca Front reunited with Peter Capaldi, which was pretty great.

209
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:54.240
I have to say.

210
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:56.340
And she was really pretty good.

211
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:02.639
She's not in it this week and lovely Jack is not in it, obviously, because she was killed at the end of the last episode, sadly.

212
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:03.960
That's horrible, isn't it?

213
00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:05.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

214
00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:07.200
She was really good. was very effective.

215
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:09.660
She's got such a fabulously posh voice as well.

216
00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:13.380
I really appreciated her in the rapprise at the beginning of this song.

217
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:13.980
She's really good.

218
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:33.480
So the other thing that happens, which I think is really interesting is that the doctor thinks that Clara is dead for a while, and it's big enough that he addresses it later, and just considering what happens in 2 episodes time, I think it was worth doing. absolutely.

219
00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:41.400
That piece of dialogue at the end, where it was really only 5 minutes, he said, it felt like a month, you know, I'll be the judge of the time, really hits home.

220
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:44.460
Actually, that says a lot, that peace dialogue.

221
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:45.059
Yes.

222
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:55.259
And the interaction there, like Osgood and the doctor get quite a lot of time together while Clara's acting against herself is Bonnie.

223
00:17:55.259 --> 00:17:57.240
And I like the 2 of them together.

224
00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:00.660
I like the 2 of them together more than I like the doctor in class.

225
00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:14.460
But isn't it just that thing that we miss so much in the new era, which is the doctor having a kind of a studio surrogate companion in a story and we have that finally here with Osgood.

226
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:15.180
It's so rare.

227
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.220
And she's really great.

228
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:18.420
Isn't she?

229
00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:19.200
she's fantastic.

230
00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:22.019
She just gets better with each episode she's in.

231
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.720
She does and she sparks off Capaldi so well.

232
00:18:24.779 --> 00:18:26.099
And the actress.

233
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.940
And that bit at the end where he invites her to join him on the Tartars.

234
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:30.960
You're like, yes, please.

235
00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:31.559
Yes.

236
00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:34.319
And she's just like, I've got a whole world to look after.

237
00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:36.779
Like, yeah, I have responsibilities here.

238
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:53.339
Coming back to how dark this episode is. like in the initial drafts, it was even darker. they had planned to bring back Samuel Anderson as a Zygon... and have him killed.

239
00:18:53.400 --> 00:19:00.720
And that's why Bonnie, who had already assumed the identity of Clara, was mad and wanted...

240
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.059
Oh, okay. on the Zigon high command.

241
00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:13.440
And in those initial drafts, also the real Clara was mortally wounded and would transfer her consciousness into Bonnie.

242
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:14.220
Bonnie would die.

243
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.039
She would be as icon the rest of the wrong.

244
00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:19.980
Yeah, and Clara Clara was going to become a zigon.

245
00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:22.799
This all sounds very complicated.

246
00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:24.539
I think that ended up on the cutting room floor.

247
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.380
I mean, I would encourage it to be darker, but as could of echoing what we were talking before about terror of the Zygons.

248
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:29.759
I also want it to be physically dark.

249
00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:34.319
That's why I think that mini mart section works so well is that it's actually dark.

250
00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:45.480
There's so much of modern Hoo, which is brightly lit or brightly, like that they somehow multicoloured lit. multicoloured lit and they somehow have managed to find, you know, some sunny days to do all the outdoor filming.

251
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.319
And of course, they're going to places like Spain and so on, which changes the light.

252
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:56.700
But it's interesting, that thing about, you know, what you're saying, James, about Osgood wanting to, you know, saying, oh, I've got this whole world to look after.

253
00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:58.859
It's what I've said many times about companion departures.

254
00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:03.420
She's taking this responsible. she's, yes, she wants to travel with a doctor, but she says, no, I am needed here.

255
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:09.299
And it's that choice, which has always disappointed me that with the exception of Martha.

256
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:13.380
We haven't allowed any other person in the new series to be able to take.

257
00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:17.940
They always have to leave for space reasons because the doctor could just come back for them.

258
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:29.759
Well, they always have to leave for space reasons because they've somehow decided that the idea of travelling with a doctor is so wonderful and attractive that you never wanted to end and there's never going to be a point where you want it to end.

259
00:20:29.819 --> 00:20:31.500
But people change.

260
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:33.119
People grow apart and so on like that.

261
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:39.900
You know, the best companion departures throughout the years, whether it's Joe or Sarah or Tegan, for instance, or Victoria.

262
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:44.460
Yeah, they realise that, no, this part of my life is over and I've got to now do something else.

263
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:49.740
And even though it's a bit rubbish and it is contract roulette, even with Stephen leaving at the end of the savages.

264
00:20:49.799 --> 00:21:00.180
You know, there's this sense that, or Nissa at the end of Terminus, which is, again, pilloried as a bit of contract roulette, in those cases, they're saying, I can actually do something with my skills here, I can do something and help other people.

265
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:09.240
I can become like the doctor, which is sort of, I suppose what claret sort of ends up doing at the end of this season, but just not, not with the same sense of self-determination.

266
00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:12.119
It's a little bit too science fiction-y.

267
00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:13.500
Like the next 2 companions.

268
00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:16.380
This companion, Clara and Bill will both leave to become the doctor.

269
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:17.519
Yeah, essentially.

270
00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:18.839
And all of that's good.

271
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:31.559
That's all fine, you know, and that's where Clara is sort of working towards and has been for a while, but there's so much science fiction, so much high concept stuff around it, that the kind of emotional thing never really lands.

272
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.700
And I mean, Bill doesn't really properly get to say goodbye to the doctor at all.

273
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.799
Yeah, it's quite heartbrending.

274
00:21:37.859 --> 00:21:38.700
Yes, awful.

275
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:49.079
I also like I liked the final answer to the question because people ask both the doctor and Kate ask Ozgood.

276
00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:54.240
I think the doctor asks her twice and Kate asks her, which are you?

277
00:21:54.299 --> 00:22:02.759
And her response at the end is I'm not going to tell you until it no longer matters until no one is interested in the answer to the question.

278
00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:04.920
And I think that's really great.

279
00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:06.000
Elegant, isn't it?

280
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:09.420
Yeah, it's totally good because that's what it's about, isn't it?

281
00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:11.880
You know, like if this is about immigration.

282
00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:15.960
You know, the moment it doesn't matter if someone has migrated here or not.

283
00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:19.619
We still accept and regard and, you know, that's right.

284
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:21.900
Us, you know, older people ask the question, where are you from?

285
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:22.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

286
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.680
But that's interesting, but it doesn't matter, you know.

287
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:43.680
Can I provide a bit of a counter to this, which is certainly not deliberate in the way the story is written, but it is a sense that I get, and it's also the sense that I get from the guy who basically kills himself in the mini Mart, is that what we're saying is that, okay, there are 20000000 zygons living amongst us, mainly in Britain.

288
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:48.240
And it's okay, provided we don't know that there's igons.

289
00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:54.779
So basically, as long as they assimilate to the extent that they look like us, they sound like us and we don't know who they are.

290
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:55.859
Sorry.

291
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.380
You look like us yourself.

292
00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:02.099
That's my line.

293
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.380
But the, you know, that's okay.

294
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:13.259
But basically, because what Bonnie wants to do, Bonnie says, no, I'm sick of pretending to be a human.

295
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:15.720
I want to live my own self.

296
00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:16.980
I want to be a zigon.

297
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:22.920
Now, she's doing it from a kind of a more revolutionary extremist point of view, but having said that, she does have a point.

298
00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.079
Why should we have to hide amongst the humans?

299
00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:26.579
Why can't we live our own life?

300
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:34.440
So, you know, and so what she's doing and what her gang are doing is sort of effectively outing people as Zion.

301
00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:44.700
So, I mean, yes, there's the more, it is that sort of thing is, yes, it's okay to have all these Muslims here, provided they just, you know, behave and don't, you know, don't, and assimilate and basically we can't really tell.

302
00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:48.299
So I actually think, and I'm not saying... not allowed to wear a heat type or whatever.

303
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:49.440
Exactly, exactly.

304
00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:50.460
And yeah.

305
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.579
And so I was reading it from a gay point of view rather than Muslim point of view.

306
00:23:53.640 --> 00:24:00.839
But whatever it is, any kind of outsider, the kind of thing that the best way to get along with everyone is to hide your true self, and I think that is unfortunate.

307
00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:01.980
Yeah.

308
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:10.019
And I think that that's why it doesn't actually properly work as a parable or some kind of commentary on Muslim migration.

309
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:26.579
And I think what it's just using is things plucked from the headlines in order to create a big, massive scale, um, uh, you know, change to the status quo on earth in the sort of Doctor Who universe for precisely that reason.

310
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:44.039
It is, you know, the idea that, you know, body would be right, I think, to have grievances about not being allowed to be herself or, you know, not being acceptable unless you changed wholeheartedly to look exactly like the people who are already here.

311
00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:54.299
So if we take that to its logical end, what do we then think of Bonnie changing her mind and deciding that that is the way to go?

312
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.660
Well, because I think that, yeah.

313
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:11.160
Is it is it Peter Harness, he keeps writing stories that then susceptible to all sorts of unpleasant interpretations like the abortion kind of thing in Kill the Moon, which again, we didn't think was actually there.

314
00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:14.400
No, killing is unpleasant for a variety of other reasons.

315
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:15.059
So yeah.

316
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:16.980
Unpleasant is not the right word for it.

317
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.619
You're giving it too much credence, Peter, by calling it up, please.

318
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:22.559
I think what's really great.

319
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:24.539
And of course, we have to talk about it.

320
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.640
It's around about 10 minutes long.

321
00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:44.339
The Capoldi speech at the end, and I think it's really amazing, and I think he manages to pull it off. you know, and he may just about be one of the very, very few doctors who could ever have pulled off something like that.

322
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:49.019
I mean, the 10 minute speech is nearly half a classic series episode.

323
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:50.160
It is.

324
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.279
I think it actually goes on too long and I also think it sort of repeats it.

325
00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:55.500
But basically because I think it repeats itself effectively.

326
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.180
Yeah, he kind of does the speech.

327
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.480
There's kind of, it's kind of the same speech rewritten and done again.

328
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:04.980
But having said that, I think it's absolutely superb. absolutely superb.

329
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:10.019
I think you sort of, you needed the reiteration of that because it's so important to the story.

330
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:22.980
But also I came to it wanting to be a little bit like, oh, this isn't as good as people say it is because people, Lord, this speech so much as being a definitive doctor and Capaldi moment, but actually it is.

331
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:27.000
It is exceptionally well written and exceptionally well delivered.

332
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:30.119
And I do think there are other doctors who could have done it.

333
00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:37.500
I think Peter Davidson could have made a well-prepared meal of this speech. and Tom Baker goes to a dog's breakfast.

334
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.720
And Tom Baker.

335
00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:40.500
Certainly could of.

336
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:47.880
But there's something in it which plays to Capaldi's strengths of being able to look like he is extemporising.

337
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:49.619
It's just amazing.

338
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:51.480
How do you think Sylvester McCoy would have performed it?

339
00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:54.299
Yeah, lots of spittle.

340
00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:56.160
I agree with you.

341
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:57.299
The speech is brilliant.

342
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:06.599
And I don't think it overstays it's welcome because he is arguing for the existence of the human race and the Zigon race.

343
00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:08.819
He's arguing to try and stop a war.

344
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:14.640
He's, you know, he is emphatic is, you know, he's arguing for existence in a way.

345
00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:22.619
And so going back to it and trying to convince these people, the repetition needs to be there.

346
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:29.339
And to be a cogent argument, it needs to be made eloquently and to be made eloquently, it needs to actually drill right down, which it does.

347
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:35.400
And he convinces he convinces Kate 1st and then convinces Bonnie as well.

348
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:41.160
And that fabulous lion where he says to Bonnie, I'm trying to convince you, and I'm almost there.

349
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.119
I think the best line, and Capoli absolutely nails it.

350
00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:55.200
And it's a real proper insight where you kind of think, oh yes, I hadn't really thought of that before. is we're going to end up where we were always going to end up sitting down talking about it.

351
00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:13.619
And now we have to decide whether we're just going to kill a lot of people 1st and then do the talking and you just sort of think, yes, you know, that absolutely nails, what is so kind of weird and horrifying about war is that it just ends up with the 2 people at the table.

352
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.839
I could have just, we could have skipped that step.

353
00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:17.940
I mean, I think it's incredible.

354
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:36.900
I think the downside of it is, I think it's the, uh, it's the Sanequa Martin Green effect, uh, if we if we're going to do a Star Trek reference. where you discover that an actor is particularly good at a particular thing and then you just make them do it over and over and over again.

355
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:39.839
Is that for the children?

356
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:41.400
children, they can know your name.

357
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:56.339
That speech where poor Peter Capaldi is hurling himself around the set at the end of twice upon a time, a similar speech where he spends 10 minutes mansplaining to Jody Whittaker, how to be the doctor, and they should listen to it.

358
00:28:56.339 --> 00:29:01.319
So tedious, and so bad, and he's doing everything he can to try and rescue it.

359
00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:02.220
I think it's a shame.

360
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:07.079
It's because that's a grandstanding speech in aid of nothing.

361
00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:10.079
This is a resolution to a two-part story.

362
00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:23.579
The other thing that's great about that speech in that sequence is because, I mean, it's so intrinsically Doctor Who in terms of, you know, this is the message of pieces is the message of, you know, tolerance getting along, seeing difference and understanding it, but also it's the thing about forgiveness.

363
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:35.160
As he says, you know, the way these, you know, wars escalate and conflicts escalators because, you know, you bombed my village, therefore I'm going to bomb your village. therefore, okay, well this time I'm going to take out the entire city and then next time I'm going to exterminate the entire race, et cetera.

364
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.319
And it just keeps building and building and escalating.

365
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:42.359
But, and this goes back to sort of what I've mentioned before when Doctor Who has tried to touch on other issues.

366
00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:50.099
The refreshing thing is it is trying to do Northern Ireland and Israel, Palestine, and all those sorts of things, without actually doing them, without explicitly.

367
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:53.940
It's doing Muslim immigration, without actually doing Muslim immigration.

368
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.539
Do you know what I mean?

369
00:29:54.660 --> 00:29:59.160
That's the whole point of having something like Doctor Who is that you can tell it through allegory and through parallels.

370
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:03.359
And without some massive speech about naming an asteroid at the end.

371
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:04.440
Exactly.

372
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:07.140
I think the speech is amazing.

373
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:16.680
I also think the new cruel people part of the speech, you know, that it's just you're going to be cruel to these people and they're going to be cruel back to you and we'll have a whole group of new cruel people.

374
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:19.079
Yeah, exactly, which is so...

375
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:19.980
The vicious cycle.

376
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:20.519
Yeah, exactly.

377
00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:23.400
And I think it nails that and that's the most important message.

378
00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:26.579
And even though I think it's overlong, I don't think it's laboured from the point of view.

379
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.220
I don't feel like I don't feel like I'm being preached at.

380
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:31.019
No, absolutely not.

381
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:32.579
I hate it when I'm being preached at.

382
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.380
Oh, for God's sake, yes, we know, we know.

383
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:41.940
Whereas even though, yes, we know and we already agree with what he's saying and we don't need to be convinced, I still get absolutely swept along by it.

384
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:47.460
Because it makes you think about war in a way that you may not have intellectualised in the past.

385
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:53.279
And the key thing is, okay, so once you've won the piece, what are you going to do with it?

386
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:54.900
What's your plan for the piece?

387
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:55.500
don't have one.

388
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:56.339
You just want to win.

389
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.980
Isn't it a bit large for the 6 of you here?

390
00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:01.740
Yeah, yes, absolutely.

391
00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:04.619
But now we have 20 million.

392
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:06.240
Pretty good.

393
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.160
It's also a bit large for 20 million.

394
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.259
Yeah, that is quite true.

395
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.420
Can I just talk about another aspect which I always love about villains?

396
00:31:15.539 --> 00:31:27.119
I mentioned this about the master, which is why I think, you know, Missy is so much more successful than John Sim, is the fact that when Clara is Bonnie, She's just that little bit more well-dressed.

397
00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.220
She walks with that little bit great astride.

398
00:31:29.339 --> 00:31:30.960
Her hair is that little bit more immaculate.

399
00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:33.480
The makeup is that little bit more full.

400
00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:35.039
It's like villain.

401
00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:36.240
She looks more smug than Clara.

402
00:31:36.299 --> 00:31:36.779
That's the thing.

403
00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:38.400
He's that thing of villains.

404
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.180
Hard to achieve, too.

405
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:45.539
It's that thing of villains always being more sophisticated, more suave than the normal version.

406
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:50.279
But the other thing is when Clara comes out of the pod when they're in the black archive.

407
00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:56.339
She's all completely dishevelled in one shot and then it cuts to something and comes back and she's suddenly virtually immaculate.

408
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.039
Like she's, she's got, she's got a hairbrush out of it.

409
00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:01.440
She took her handbag into the pod with her.

410
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:10.259
I mean, I love how she looks more natural than Bonnie in the scenes where they're talking to one another from inside.

411
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:13.140
That's because she's just gotten out of bed and is it a single time?

412
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:13.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

413
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:23.099
She hasn't put that makeup on because I think last week I was struck by how differently she was made up and that's clearly so that Bonnie can look like that in episode two.

414
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:32.640
But I thought it was a little bit of a shame given that Clara hadn't been kind of substituted before the episode began because we clearly start in place, don't we?

415
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:43.319
But there's a very clear moment where when you watch episode two, you realise that that signalling that she has now been taken over where Bonnie puts her hair up.

416
00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:44.400
Yeah, yeah.

417
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.759
She, like, ties her hair up in a ponytail.

418
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:54.720
And so from then on, the Bonnie Clara is the Clara with her hair up.

419
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:57.839
And so it's a very specific moment there.

420
00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:00.539
I do love calling her Zigella.

421
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.279
Yeah, great.

422
00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:07.319
But also, whenever they mention Bonnie, does not your fan gene tingle?

423
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:09.660
Oh, yeah, a little bit.

424
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:18.000
It is actually interesting, though, that even though Bonnie wants to live as her true Zigon self, she calls herself Bonnie rather than a Zigon name?

425
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:19.440
Like, what's his igon name then?

426
00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:20.099
Yeah.

427
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:21.539
What psycho names do we have?

428
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:22.799
We just have Broton, don't we?

429
00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:24.059
Sister Lamont?

430
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:25.859
Your sister Lambert is...

431
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:27.839
That is...

432
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.160
It's actually psychon word.

433
00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:30.539
Not many people know that.

434
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:31.500
That is spelled.

435
00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:34.859
Yeah.

436
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:36.000
She's got an apostrophe.

437
00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:40.319
If it was a new adventures novel, there'd be like 3 apostrophes in eight.

438
00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:42.180
Do you like that from Terror of the Zygons?

439
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.279
It's Flowers of the Forest, Lamont for the dead.

440
00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:45.299
Oh my god.

441
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:04.079
You know, the thing in the speech that I like is the American Game Show host thing, because, yes, it's really great.

442
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:06.779
It is a game show.

443
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.000
Well, that's probably the, but I don't like about it.

444
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.159
So, yeah, just what they've got most depressed, yeah.

445
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:12.239
It's all speaker box, right?

446
00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:13.199
But also that thing.

447
00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:22.380
Not just that, the whole thing is, you know, that game show that they reference in the episode was a real game show.

448
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:25.980
That town was named for that game show.

449
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:37.800
And that game show included an element, which was a box that was opened and you didn't know until after you'd pressed the buttons what your prize was.

450
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.360
So it's actually, I'm surprised they weren't sued.

451
00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:44.280
They got away with happiness, Patrol, for God's sake.

452
00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:49.320
Yeah, only just, like, the idea that it is a game as well.

453
00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:50.280
Like, that's the other thing.

454
00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:57.300
Like he's setting up, he's saying, no, no, these boxes, what they are, is a microcosm of what war is like.

455
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.639
You don't know what the outcome is.

456
00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:01.260
So you get 2 possible outcomes.

457
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:06.179
You just press a button at random because they're not labelled and you've got no control over what the outcome's going to be.

458
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:21.780
Kate's ones are directed against people, like either we blow up London with a nuclear bomb under the black archive that we had in Day of the Doctor, or the Zygons all become human and lose their ability to change.

459
00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:24.900
And then Bonnie's got ones that concern the Zygons.

460
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:29.400
You know, she gets what she wants or she gets all the zygons to be killed.

461
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:31.019
And I think that's really great.

462
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:41.159
And I do think too, the moment where Bonnie realises that the doctor hasn't actually set this up because of course he has.

463
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:41.880
Of course he hasn't.

464
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:45.179
The nuclear bomb, the gas that's going to kill them all. yeah.

465
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:47.159
Yeah, I mean, the nuclear bomb was already there.

466
00:35:47.219 --> 00:35:52.800
It was planted there by Kate, remember, and it was the one that they, you know, they lose their memory and they have to do the countdown.

467
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:53.699
That's right.

468
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:54.480
Yes, yes, yes.

469
00:35:54.539 --> 00:35:57.179
And they both countermand the order at the same time.

470
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:07.920
But the, like, the other thing that I think is really interesting and weird and it's thrown away is that this is the 15th time this has happened.

471
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:10.559
Yeah, that's just wonderful.

472
00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:15.659
And it's prescient for, you know, heaven's sent coming up in a very small way.

473
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:25.260
Although the implication is that Kate's agreed to have her memory wiped each time where she quite clearly doesn't agree to have her memory wiped this time because he just flashes the whole thing.

474
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:26.880
All of that.

475
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.880
I mean, that was so clever that was so brilliant. brilliant.

476
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.539
Because, I mean, it's done in Day of the Doctor, and it's a kind of joke, isn't it?

477
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:38.400
That poor bastard who turns up to work every day and thinks it's his 1st day.

478
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:40.980
He's been there for like 10 years or whatever.

479
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:43.320
He just gets memory wiped on the way out the door.

480
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:51.900
But this where, like, it's just saying that this is a constant thing, a constant thing that needs vigilance.

481
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:53.760
It's not something you do once.

482
00:36:53.820 --> 00:37:03.719
You don't just once decide that you're not going to become the next generation of new cruel people, that you have to keep deciding it over and over again.

483
00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:04.559
I thought it was really good.

484
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:05.820
It's not just a funny line.

485
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:07.440
You have to keep choosing peace.

486
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:12.239
Isn't the depressing thing, though, that it's going to keep happening.

487
00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:20.639
Like if it's happened for 15 times, it's going to happen for 16, 17, 18 And it's almost like, isn't it better if they didn't have their memories wiped so they actually learnt from the mistake?

488
00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:23.639
Yeah, I guess so.

489
00:37:23.699 --> 00:37:27.659
But I think, like, because part of the war thing is we remember how horrible it was.

490
00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.000
Yes, and that's why we try not to do it.

491
00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:35.039
And that's why we prevent war for at least a little while until those people die in the beginning, et cetera, et cetera.

492
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:38.760
I mean, the idea is so that we can keep using the Osgood box.

493
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:42.179
Again, he doesn't have to come up with a better idea next time. yes, yes, yes.

494
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:44.760
So the Osgood box, I think, is really great.

495
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:55.079
We see it introduced in that video with the 2 Osgoods, which is in black and white for no reason other than making sure we don't know there's a red one and a blue one.

496
00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:58.139
Did you see that?

497
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:02.519
And then she has that big, cheap, horrible laptop that she smashes up, which I quite enjoyed.

498
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:08.519
And then, you know, you should, of course, it's the Osgood box because there's 2 of them.

499
00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:16.739
Like no one understood that the Osgood box was about playing out the war in minuscule in microcosm at some point.

500
00:38:16.860 --> 00:38:17.940
Yeah.

501
00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:23.699
I like the way the Ozgood boxes are sort of stored in the black archive by sitting at either end of a long table.

502
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:26.460
Like that's just, they're not kept in kind of a stack.

503
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:27.900
They're just sitting on a table.

504
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.960
Yeah, I gather the doctor, they can't go in there anymore.

505
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:34.739
So unit can't go in there and use it, the doctor.

506
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:35.460
Siled off.

507
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:35.820
Yeah.

508
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:36.300
Okay.

509
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:41.579
Do you see in the background, by the way, there's a helmet from the dreadful Viking one.

510
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:43.559
Is it the Maya?

511
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.480
I thought it was the helmet from the, is it what it's called?

512
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:46.440
Yeah, they call the Mulmeyer.

513
00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:49.860
So those monsters there, that exists purely for war.

514
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:55.800
Like those monsters are mercenaries and all they do is make war.

515
00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:59.219
And so we've got that like in the centre of the shot.

516
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:10.199
And I was just kind of wondering who was doing that because like harness can't be riding this with knowledge of what's happening in episode 5 or whatever.

517
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.659
No, will have been the props person having a really bright idea.

518
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.679
Or me snuck in and left it there.

519
00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:19.260
I mean, I think it is good, isn't it?

520
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:21.659
Because it does remind you of that.

521
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:24.480
Like, it is clearly just an emblem emblem of war.

522
00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:26.699
They should have had the helmet of fear on there.

523
00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:29.940
I didn't see this an emblem of war.

524
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:38.880
I just saw it as an emblem of a, he's a prop from a previous episode in the same way that, you know, because, you know, the black archive is the repository of all this alien tech and this has obviously been found in Norway.

525
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:41.820
That's a very specific prop to have front and centre.

526
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.980
Yeah, I think I think it has to be.

527
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:45.000
It is, you're quite correct, yes.

528
00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:49.320
I think it has to be trying to say something about the episode, which I think is, you know, pretty good.

529
00:39:49.380 --> 00:39:52.739
And it's always that thing with Doctor Who, isn't it?

530
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:57.059
Because every episode happens somewhere completely different.

531
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:02.280
You have to go to special lengths to make it seem like it's all taking place in the same world.

532
00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:05.940
So I thought that that was kind of good, I guess.

533
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.940
Yeah, because they steal the helmet, don't they?

534
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:13.679
They actually steal the helmets from the mire in the girl who died.

535
00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:25.199
They have like electromagnets run by the eels and the helmets come off the top of them and she's wearing that helmet when she dies.

536
00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:29.880
So a shield has got that helmet on when she dies, I think.

537
00:40:29.940 --> 00:40:32.280
And of course, Shilder will be back in 2 weeks.

538
00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:34.619
So it's a reference to that, I think.

539
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:39.179
But associating that episode with this episode does not make the other episode better.

540
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:41.820
In fact it might make this episode marginally worse.

541
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.460
Yes, because it just brings back, it just brings back unhappy memories.

542
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:51.420
Also, I can't think of Maya without thinking, do they have beasts?

543
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:52.860
Do they have Maya Beasts?

544
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:54.119
Yes, exactly.

545
00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:54.420
Yes.

546
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:56.579
When you said Maya, I thought, no, that's from something else.

547
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:24.840
So, can we talk about the two parter aspect of it, or let's just say the modern naming convention of two parties, because I know they want to link them together by having one called the Zygon Invasion, and the other called the Zygon Inversion, but I just can't help but thinking there might be a better way of doing this.

548
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:31.139
If only they could just have one title and call one of them something like, oh, I don't know, part one.

549
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.420
And the 2nd one something like part two.

550
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:37.079
And then we'd have to stop using terms like the Salurian 2 parter.

551
00:41:37.139 --> 00:41:40.139
Oh, the 2 part of that open season eight, 2 part of it's this.

552
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:40.440
You know?

553
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:41.940
Simon, do you mean like the end of time?

554
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:44.099
For example, I mean, goodness me.

555
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:46.800
But we, what about the 19th...

556
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.340
Oh, my God, Russell, Simon, you're erasing the 1960s.

557
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:51.659
My goodness.

558
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.900
If Russell T. Davies has allowed himself to call something part one on a cut part two.

559
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:56.880
Therefore, it must be breaking the rules there, though.

560
00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:58.980
I really, really like Simon.

561
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:00.360
At least in the 1960s.

562
00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:05.219
I really, really liked that Russell was actually going to call the 1st part of the end of time something different.

563
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:15.539
He actually teased it in DWM. and he said, it's a 6 word title, and it was meant to be the last days of Planet Earth, but it ended up being the end of time, part one. end of one.

564
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.320
The most self-contradictory title of any Doctor Who story.

565
00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:31.860
But isn't it, but isn't it funny, though, that we're quite happy calling all of these Hartnell stories by a single title rather than the three-part of that open season 2 or the 6 parter on Vortus?

566
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.679
We call them the web planet or whatever.

567
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:43.739
Whereas we've never been able to agree on in the modern era that we're just going to call this, the Zygon invasion, or we're just going to call...

568
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:48.780
I think that people do default to calling them by the title of the 1st episode.

569
00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:50.940
Yeah, quite alternated. yeah And so does.

570
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:54.360
Ah, yes, but not without not without the suffix.

571
00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:57.059
So and so does the target novelisation.

572
00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.820
Ah, it calls it the Zygon invasion.

573
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:00.659
Yes.

574
00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:06.420
So, episode 2 was actually originally going to be called truth or consequences.

575
00:43:06.539 --> 00:43:11.400
Yeah, I would have actually preferred that because they do want to parallel all of them, don't they?

576
00:43:11.460 --> 00:43:15.960
So we've got the magician's apprentice, the witch is familiar under the lake before the flood.

577
00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:17.400
Like, they're the same structure and stuff.

578
00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:19.500
Yep, sleep no more face the raven.

579
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:19.800
Yep.

580
00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:22.320
Yeah, they're not.

581
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.539
That's not really...

582
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:33.420
I do like that conceit, but I think it's a bit misplaced in this two-parter, Simon. is that I think the general public has scoped to be confused.

583
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:34.500
It's so similar.

584
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:40.860
Zygon invasion, Zygon inversion, that would they have just thought it was the same episode if they were looking at that week's radio time?

585
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:42.239
Well, I think they care.

586
00:43:42.300 --> 00:43:43.920
No one really knows what the title is.

587
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:45.179
They don't care what the title is.

588
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:49.019
The Doctor Who's one of the very few programs that actually has an on-screen episode time.

589
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:54.059
Yeah, noticed that the new Star Trek don't, except for the animated ones.

590
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:55.260
So lower decks.

591
00:43:55.260 --> 00:43:55.980
Oh, really?

592
00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:56.519
Prodigy.

593
00:43:56.579 --> 00:43:59.340
No on-screen titles, the Picard or...

594
00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:00.539
Complete with the inverted commas.

595
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:01.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

596
00:44:01.739 --> 00:44:05.159
Well, Picard feels more like it progresses from one episode to the next.

597
00:44:05.219 --> 00:44:07.559
Although, just so strangely, Wells doesn't have onscreen episode titles.

598
00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:07.980
No.

599
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:08.940
No that's disappointing.

600
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:18.840
But anyway, point being that it's annoyed me for about the last, I don't know, 18 years and it would probably continue to annoy me for a while yet.

601
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:20.760
I kind of like the idea.

602
00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:22.500
And I think I said this at the time.

603
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:28.260
It's one of the reasons why we don't do the 2 parters as one episode.

604
00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:39.059
That's why we're discussing the Zygon inversion this week, is that separately, I think that the unit of storytelling then becomes the season rather than a story.

605
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:47.400
And the idea of a story, at least when we sort of projected back onto the 1960s, doesn't quite work in a way.

606
00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:56.639
When you think about like the arc or the Daleks masterplant that do weird things with the idea that there's a four-part story or written by the same person.

607
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:03.539
But nevertheless, they still, you know, there's still a sense of it being one set of things.

608
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:05.400
And I think that's one of the things. yeah, one thing.

609
00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:10.320
Even if in the arc, they, you know, you could argue that it's 22 putt stories.

610
00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:16.559
Well, no, not really. you know, it's much more different to having, say, I can space followed by some tyran experiment.

611
00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:17.219
Yes, they're linked.

612
00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:35.039
And, you know, I mean, that's the thing I really loved about the, that's what set Doctor Who apart from me back in the day as a kid was that it was completely different to every other television show because it neither just had self-contained episodes, nor did it have this continuous, never-ending story where, which never quite resolve, or at least takes forever to resolve.

613
00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:37.139
Anyway, that's my old beef.

614
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:42.239
It was the only series that was made by the Department of series and serials that was actually a series and a serial.

615
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:43.619
Yeah, and I think I think.

616
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:44.519
Yeah, yeah.

617
00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:45.659
Episodic serial?

618
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.980
What a John Tullet title. episodic serial series. stupid.

619
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:51.179
But I think it's a problem.

620
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:57.059
And obviously you can't do it now because most of the time you're tuning in for a quarter of a story when you watch Doctor Who.

621
00:45:57.059 --> 00:46:05.280
And two-parters always, the 2nd part always is outrated by the 1st part pretty much.

622
00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:13.739
And in fact, I think Moffatt, when he did series 7, said, look, we lose a couple of 1000000 viewers for part 2 all the time.

623
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:20.219
So I'm going to do a series of just single part stories for series 7.

624
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.699
And then he does his usual thing where it's just like, oh, but now I'm going to do the opposite.

625
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.139
Now I'm going to do it.

626
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:29.400
But I think that was true in 2005, and I think it probably was also true in 2015.

627
00:46:29.579 --> 00:46:36.480
But I don't think it's true now because even broadcast television people consume, you know, they either decide to watch a series or they don't.

628
00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:43.260
And I mean, I know there are some strange freaky people out there who just turn on the television and watch whatever's on, but we don't care about those people.

629
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:44.760
I want to talk to discerning people.

630
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:47.099
If you decided to watch Doctor Who.

631
00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:49.019
You're probably not even watching it when it goes out.

632
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:53.400
You're watching on a BBC iPlayer or ABC iview or whatever else the streaming service it is.

633
00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:55.260
That's the way people consume this now.

634
00:46:55.320 --> 00:47:00.659
So I think the arguments that are made now for why the series has to be the way it is. no longer relevant.

635
00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:03.360
So no on-screen titles when it comes back is what we want.

636
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:07.440
No, because that's not here and there. a completely separate.

637
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:10.440
So that's completely important to the thing.

638
00:47:10.500 --> 00:47:13.860
Well, well, you know, well, actually, no, you don't even need onscreen titles because what are you doing?

639
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:14.639
You're going to an app.

640
00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:16.980
You find it, you're scrolling the time and you're pressing play.

641
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:18.960
It has the title and you press play.

642
00:47:19.019 --> 00:47:20.760
So whether it appears on screen.

643
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:22.260
It doesn't appear on screen.

644
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:24.300
It just appears on screen in a different way.

645
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:29.039
Although a small part of me would die if they didn't have on-screen titles.

646
00:47:29.460 --> 00:47:43.980
Is that the reason why Doctor Who's ratings, even though they've been very high at times, tend to fluctuate more than drama series because more than most drama series, is because people are still locked into that idea that you can dip in and out of Doctor Who.

647
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:46.440
You'll get a new story every episode or every 2 episodes.

648
00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:47.519
It's an anthology.

649
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:47.820
Yeah.

650
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.739
All right, it's part 2 of a two-part story, the Zygon invasion two-parter, in fact.

651
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:01.920
And so we're going to do...

652
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:03.780
Just the Zigon 2 party.

653
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:06.179
So it's time for peaks of the week.

654
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:07.920
Simon, do you want to start us off?

655
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:17.340
Well, Peter did actually mention it earlier in the conversation, but I thought it's worth formalising as a pick of the week, and that is Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

656
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:25.079
And I'm talking about the original 1956 film, which has got a bit of a different moral of the story compared to what we're looking at here.

657
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:27.539
I'd encourage people to go back and see it.

658
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:36.059
It's actually really well-made film and a lot of Doctor Who, as was pointed out, whether it's faceless ones, tear up the zigons, does, oh, its existence to invasion of the body snatches.

659
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:36.780
It's really well done.

660
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:45.960
Basically, aliens are gradually replacing people in this town with carbon copies, then take the role of that person and go about their daily lives.

661
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:56.340
However, back then in 956, it was more an expression about Cold War paranoia, communist infiltration and so on rather than, you know, tolerance necessarily.

662
00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:12.480
But, I mean, the most famous scene, and this is not a spoiler, because it's a very famous piece of cinema where, you know, he feels like he's the only one left at the end who is a human being and he's running around the streets like a crazy person going, they're already here.

663
00:49:12.539 --> 00:49:15.900
They're already here and everyone's just looking at him going, well, who's that?

664
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:19.800
Well, that's because everybody else are the aliens and he's the only human left.

665
00:49:19.860 --> 00:49:21.780
But it's really, really good.

666
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:27.059
And I'd encourage you to look at the 1956 film, not the subsequent, I think it's said late 70s remake.

667
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.139
Brilliant.

668
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:28.920
James?

669
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:32.099
I recently watched Marvel's secret invasion.

670
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:32.820
Ooh.

671
00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:35.159
Which is quite enjoyable.

672
00:49:35.219 --> 00:49:37.320
I have not read the comic book.

673
00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:39.360
I could ask my husband if it was any good.

674
00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:40.980
But I haven't.

675
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.860
No, I quite enjoyed it.

676
00:49:43.920 --> 00:50:08.519
I think in many ways this Doctor Who story, either consciously or unconsciously borrows a lot from that original comic book, and obviously Invasion of the Body Snatchers as well, but I think and not wanting to spoil what happens in that TV show, the genoure of this story is a better resolution to the plot.

677
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:09.059
Okay.

678
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:12.719
My pick of the week might be Barbenheimer.

679
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:30.900
Because I don't know, this just puts me in mind of the Barbenheimer experience that was a short-lived social phenomenon because Oppenheimer is, of course, about war and the end of the world and mutually assured destruction and, you know, how are we going to win the piece?

680
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:38.519
Whereas Barbie is about plundering an iconic property and doing it with affection and knowingly, which maybe this episode does with the Zigons.

681
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:39.599
I drawing a long bow here?

682
00:50:39.659 --> 00:50:40.139
No.

683
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:42.659
Yeah, go watch both.

684
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:47.760
Well, my peaks of the week. so far this season have all been Star Trek related.

685
00:50:47.820 --> 00:51:01.500
So I am instead going to say that I think this week or last week I finished the 2nd series of Heartstopper, which is based on a series of graphic novels, which are still kind of being published.

686
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:03.900
I think the last one is due out in December.

687
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:05.039
It's very lovely.

688
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:06.420
It's terribly sweet.

689
00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:12.719
And it has Olivia Coleman as one of the main characters, mothers. which is pretty awesome.

690
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:13.920
The best mother ever.

691
00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:15.539
She's so great.

692
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:16.679
I wish she was my mother.

693
00:51:16.739 --> 00:51:17.280
She so awesome.

694
00:51:17.340 --> 00:51:27.960
And Yasmin Finney, who would be playing, we've discovered Rose Noble. in the upcoming 60th anniversary specials.

695
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.559
I wonder why she chose her mother's surname instead of her father.

696
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:34.139
That could be Rose Temple Noble.

697
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:36.000
Rose Noble Temple.

698
00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:02.519
Well, then, now, that's all the time we have for this week.

699
00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:09.179
We'll be back next week to try and find some other aspect of human life to monetise, in sleep no more.

700
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:27.599
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

701
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:34.619
Until next time, may your next birthday see you given a Ferrari and your own personal tailor.

702
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:36.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

703
00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:37.679
Good night.

704
00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:38.400
Good night.

705
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:39.179
Bye for now.

706
00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:40.920
Can I have a Stephen Taylor?

707
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:49.739
That was Flight Through Entirety.

708
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:53.039
Sorry, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Moore and James Selwood.

709
00:52:53.099 --> 00:52:55.739
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

710
00:52:55.800 --> 00:53:01.500
This episode, Orange Babies, was recorded on the 17th of September 2023 and released on the 5th of November.

711
00:53:02.219 --> 00:53:17.639
If you haven't heard enough of us for a while, and who would blame you if you had, remember that we can also be heard talking about Blake 7 on maximum power, a co-production with the Trap One podcast, which is currently covering fan favourite series C.

712
00:53:17.699 --> 00:53:19.320
We'll catch you over there.

713
00:53:23.340 --> 00:53:24.960
What do you think?

714
00:53:25.019 --> 00:53:25.619
I think we're done.

715
00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:26.280
Yeah.

716
00:53:26.340 --> 00:53:28.019
What do we think of Harry Sullivan?

717
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:31.139
We said last week.

718
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:32.639
There's no way we would have done that.

719
00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:33.780
Yeah, we talked about that.

720
00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:35.820
Well, maybe he did it by accident.

721
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:36.420
Sullivan's gas.

722
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.780
Yeah, I thought maybe that, and that was my head can and it was just going to be a mistake.

723
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:44.099
I thought he was too busy creating Twinks for knock knock next season.

724
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:46.260
Yeah, I did mention that too.

725
00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:52.739
I did say he gets a very positive reference to make up for it in series 10, where he's the grandfather of that pretty boy.

726
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:56.280
But not the gay grandfather. completely forgot about that.

727
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:56.880
Yeah.

728
00:53:57.780 --> 00:53:59.760
Yeah, knock knock.

729
00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:01.199
I love the beginning of knock knock.

730
00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:02.099
I think it goes to hell.

731
00:54:02.219 --> 00:54:05.159
Yeah, I love all of that.

732
00:54:05.219 --> 00:54:06.539
The student accommodation stuff.

733
00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:09.300
I can remember.

734
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.920
I can remember virtually nothing got a treason store. in terms of those episodes.

735
00:54:13.980 --> 00:54:14.699
Knock, knock.

736
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:19.320
I couldn't even, I could not, I could not even tell you what's not, David's about.

737
00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:21.360
I cannot remember at all.

738
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:25.320
Yeah I've been blue, right?

739
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:26.280
It's still wrapped in plastic.

740
00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:30.360
But I'm liking this season more on this run through, so that's kind of...

741
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:34.320
Isn't isn't that the 1st thing that Souche does after he finishes Piro?

742
00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:35.400
What was he thinking?

743
00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:36.059
Yeah.

744
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:36.840
Oh, well.

745
00:54:36.900 --> 00:54:37.739
It's pretty good.

746
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:39.420
Yeah, it's all right.

747
00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:41.280
Yeah, I'm going to press stop.