I know for a fact that one of the reasons that Todd doesn't like
this that much is because it doesn't have opening credits.
That's one of the reasons I absolutely love it.
I also think that's one of the best things about it, actually, is
that it doesn't.
It breaks all that convention.
I actually kind of like that.
I think because this isn't really a Doctor Who episode in the
sense of a normal Doctor Who episode.
It's an episode that in the story has been created by one of the
characters out of footage available.
So we don't see what happens.
All we see is Rasmussen's version of what happened.
So this is created by him.
Well, evidently he couldn't find the opening title sequence on the
cutting room. would be it.
Yeah, it's...
The 1st time I get worried is when I saw this episode and up
popped Reese Shearsmith and I was like, oh, it's everyone's least
favourite Patrick Trouton impersonator. you know, from the from
the TV movie.
You know, because I really was like, it's a thankless job to be
given the job of portraying one of the most charismatic character
actors of all time in like 5 minutes in a movie, but still I was
like, uh-oh, like what's going to happen?
For a 2nd there, I thought you were going to say, everyone's least
favourite league of gentlemen.
I was like, oh, that's a bit hard.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
He's great in that.
I like the League of Gentlemen.
I mean, he's the last one to appear.
Obviously, we've had Mark Gatis over and over and over again at
this and he's still got at least one appearance on camera left
go.
And then we had Pemberton in silence in the library, didn't we?
So he was bound to turn up sooner or later, and to turn up in a
Mark Gator script, given that Mark Gatis has written for him so
much and knows what he can do.
All we need now is Jeremy Dyson to write an episode.
Yes. true.
The interesting thing about this is that it's way out of Gatus's
wheelhouse, I think.
So Gatus can do horror, and that's a lot of what League of
Gentlemen is.
It's kind of 3 people, 4 people who were brought up on Hammer
horror and using those tropes and playing with them and things.
So that's definitely here.
But Gatus doesn't normally go for 38th century and stuff.
He's usually, you know, his nostalgia, isn't he?
He's the reasonably recent past.
Yeah, and he also is like, um, I think really referential to a
certain section of Doctor Who, like the 3rd and 2nd doctor eras
are his eras that he's referential too.
So it's interesting for him to do sort of a base under siege story
with this one, but in his own way, and pull in the found footage
element of it.
So, I mean, I think that's interesting.
And I also feel like, I don't know if you guys agree, but I also
feel like he's doing a Stephen Moffatt impression in this story
right?
So like, I think he's deliberately kind of moving away from the
type of stories he's written before to see if he can do it the way
Stephen Moffatt does it, and we'll see how well that works out for
him.
Yeah, well, the taking the taking of the mundane that Moffat is so
good at that, which is a Doctor Who thing, but Moffat takes it to
its kind of nth degree off and taking something like sleep from
the corner of your eye and making that into the monster.
That's a very Moffat thing.
The other Moffat thing, I think, is the idea of a framing device
that ends up interacting and becoming part of the narrative.
And so we're actually in the next room later in the episode when
Rasmussen starts doing his decamera of monologue.
And so he's actually recording that while the episode's going on.
Did anyone see the Stephen Moffat Dracula thing, the three-part?
Yeah, because 2 of those 3 parts did exactly the same thing, where
we have the story being narrated as a framing device and then the
framing device ends up part of the narrative.
It's a classic Moffat theme.
So it's interesting to see him try to do that and especially also
try to do it in, in a found footage format, which, from a horror
point of view, is like one of the bleaker, You know, the reason
why the, it's called found footage is it's, it's usually found
after everybody involved in the story is dead, you know, and so
you know, the idea behind it is sort of to bring it to reclaim it
and there's a certain degree of, um, of cynicism or not cynicism, a
nihilism, I guess, to the, to those stories, which is an
interesting thing to bring to Doctor Who, because fundamentally we
watch the show to watch the doctor win.
And so this is an interesting episode in that regard, or at least
bold in what it's trying to do, I thought.
Because, of course, the other thing is that sort of Japanese
horror thing, things like the ring as well, where you have a video
that if you watch it, you're going to die.
And that's what this episode is, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, well, is it?
I mean, I don't know.
I think that part of the problem that I have with it is that like
it starts off being something and then becomes something else and
the thing that it winds up being is sort of not anywhere other in
the story except in that epilogue, right?
So I don't know if you guys want to go through it from start to
finish, but that's one of the things that I have trouble with at
the end, where it's like the rules get completely, the Apple cart
gets kicked over entirely based on what we thought we were
watching.
And I'm not sure that it expends enough shoe leather to really
make me buy it other than.
It's just sort of crammed full of narrative.
I didn't know, I can see what you're saying, that the rules do
change, but that's sort of what's appealing for me in the sense
that, you know, he starts by sort of saying, you don't want to
watch this. basically.
You don't want to watch this.
It's awful.
And in that usual sort of way, things get worse and worse, the
situations get worse and worse and worse.
And it is all quite chaotic.
And I think it's not meant to make perfect sense from that found
footage way because, you know, we don't have everything covered
because we've pieced this together from what's available.
And I think I like the fact that it comes across to me, not as a
rule change, but as a twist in the end when we discovered that
well, actually, no, by watching this video, you've now been
infected with the sleep dust.
I don't know, it's it all.
I mean, I'm not saying it's perfect, and I think there are some
moments where it doesn't quite work, but I think it is certainly
very gripping, entertaining.
I was completely with it the entire way through and on subsequent
viewings as well.
See, my history with it is a little bit different because I
remember we were chatting and it may have been during lockdown and
we were all kind of chatting in a sort of FTE group and Brandon
was saying how much he hated this.
This is one of his very, very, you know, it's down there with
Black Orchid.
Yeah, he really, really strongly dislikes it.
And I thought, no, no, it can't be as bad as that.
And I've said before on the podcast that this season of Doctor Who
is the one that I know least well.
The one that I'm least familiar with.
It gets released as we're really starting flights through entirety
and I'm having to watch 40 episodes of Black and White Doctor Who
a month.
And, you know, so I don't think I end up opening the Blu-ray box
set when it arrives or whatever.
So I don't know this at all.
And I did watch it and I thought it was better than I expected.
But watching it this time, I had the same experience as you, Jeremy
I think that the twist doesn't land, that it's not, it's not
telegraphed well enough.
And I think it's confusing at the end exactly what he's trying to
do because there's also that feint that there's a monster in the
box that's going to be sent to Triton and that's going to start
infecting people some other way.
And then psych.
No, it's the episode you've been watching all along.
I just don't think he gets to land it quite so much.
And there are some direction things as well.
So forgive me if I'm wrong.
So this is where I think it makes an attempt to be about this.
So it's not completely a surprise that the, it's the episode
that's the plan.
So he says, don't watch this at the beginning, just about
immediately we hear the static that is the thing that's conveying
the message.
And we hear it again and again, and there's no reason why we
should hear it if it's just found footage.
Do you know what I mean?
It's one of those things that's hiding in plain sight.
It's like, well, he's editing this together.
What's the static?
Like, why?
Well, static is the better.
He's transmitted it from this.
The static is because he's transmitting it from a space station
which is falling into Neptune.
And so there's, there's, it's not like they've found a disc or a
recording.
It's a transmission which is being interrupted by stuff.
Yeah, I don't think that's the way I was reading it.
I don't think that's bad at all.
It's there and then we get it reinterpreted.
That thing that you've heard over and over again in this episode
that you just assumed was that is in fact the is in fact the
message.
And then you get the clever thing where Clara only starts
transmitting an image after she's been in the Morpheus box.
Morpheus machine.
And she does that almost immediately.
And then I think towards the end of the episode, we start to have
things from our point of view transmitted to us.
So there is footage that is clearly not the POV of any of the
characters in the scene, but it's also not the black and white
footage that we're used to getting from the station.
And so we have started to be infected by the end of the episode.
It only starts to happen at the end.
You remember that scene where you see Clara's point of view and on
the screen behind the doctor?
There's, you know, that image that she's seeing as well.
We get one of those scenes as well, where what we see is what's on
the screen as well, and it doesn't seem to be from someone else.
So I think it does, like, it's not a twist that comes completely
out of nowhere, but I do think it is a bit confusing and it
doesn't seem to be like anything that the rest of the episode is
about.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, look, it's a sort of a Je ne sais quoi for me
because as I've sort of said sometimes before, there are episodes
that you don't like and you find all these reasons why they're bad
there are episodes that you like and you excuse all the stuff
that's wrong with it.
Yeah, because there's a je ne saisquoir about them that you just
for some reason, it speaks to you.
And that's what I get with this episode.
I'm prepared to acknowledge.
Well, actually, I'm prepared to sort of acknowledge what you've
just said about the fact that the twist sort of comes out of
nowhere. not telegraphed enough.
But I kind of like the fact that that's not telegraphed out of
nowhere.
Now, I agree that in another episode I'd have said, oh, well
that's just ridiculous.
Theyve just made that up at the end and it's all horrible and they
had no i- they had didn't know how to finish the episode.
I completely acknowledge that.
So I acknowledge that that's a bit of inconsistency that one might
have, but I think that is masked by the fact that it is this
chaotic found footage thing that you can get away with that kind
of error in it.
And I think part of the thing that I like about it is the fact
that you get to the end.
You're not entirely sure what you've just seen.
And I think that's part of the point.
So I think all of those things, you know, is it the monster in the
Morpheus machine?
Is it the static on the video, putting it in the eye?
I think both things are true.
I think there is no one thing going on necessarily.
Well, that's the other thing about found footage, isn't it, that
there's no director, and that's what makes this a little bit
different.
Like found footage is just what's lying around.
Here we've got a very definite kind of, you know, an editor
someone who's telling a story for a particular purpose, but it is
that thing, you know, that you don't have to have a neat story
that hits all of the normal kind of script beards because it's
found because it's an artefact rather than a, you know, like a
Hollywood film or something.
Yeah, and it's interesting because my, when I 1st saw it, My
relationship to this era of Doctor, it's my favourite era of New
Doctor Who, is these seasons with Peter Capaldi, and I recognise
there's a lot of issues that some people may have with it for
sure.
I'm not sure that it's the most well constructed era, but I think
it's my favourite.
And part of it is because I love that Stephen Moffatt starts it
off going, I'm not sure why I'm doing this anymore.
So maybe the doctor shouldn't be sure why he's doing this anymore
either, right?
And it becomes an arc of someone finding a reason why to keep
going.
So I've watched it many times, but I've only before agreeing to do
this podcast.
I'd only seen this episode once.
So that tells you that I legitimately just something about it.
And I think, Part of it was that, I just felt a couple of problems
really affect my enjoyment of it.
The 1st is that I think found footage works primarily because of
our of our investment in the characters.
And I think we'll probably talk about the supporting cast and the
supporting characters of this, but they're very thinly drawn.
Um, even for a horror movie plot, right?
Um, and so it's hard to kind of get invested in it.
And the 2nd thing is, is that the unreliable narration of the
whole narrative.
At the end, it's sort of, I think if you don't allow the audience
to come along with you, and instead you're ahead of it, um, it can
feel disingenuous or it can affect your suspension of disbelief.
And the 3rd thing, and those 2 things, I think, are minor, but the
3rd thing is, The fact of the monster itself is not.
It ain't great, you know, I mean, like, it's a, the mundane thing
that he's transforming.
I think, needed another polish to get to a point where my
suspension of disbelief can be maintained.
I don't have an answer for what this thing is that's better than
what they give me and what they give me is not great to my mind.
I honestly don't know.
Is it called sleep dust?
Where you guys are?
Is that what it's called?
No, we just call it sleep.
It's just called sleep.
Okay, so yeah.
Sleep is something that we call, and we call it, but we also call
it eye crusties or eye boogers.
And both of those things...
Yeah.
So, I mean, in North America, when when it was revealed what these
creatures were, there was a lot of people that were like, hi
bookers, really?
That's what they are.
Like, you know, they're walking around and, I mean, there's a lot
of heavy lifting scientific double talk that Doctor Who can do.
I'm not sure it can just say if you don't get enough sleep, the
sleep in your eye becomes a monster that walks around. don't think
it works.
I have to say, as someone who loudly defended both in the forest
of the night and kill the moon last year, that I'm going to give
the eye booger monsters a part.
But I do have to say that the reason that they even approach
working is that they're in this rather than in some other story
where the camera was a little bit more leisurely.
It is the fact that it's this sort of scrappy footage, all
handheld and stuff, so you don't see them too much because they
are a bit crummy.
And I think if they had been... standing still, you know, like in
a well lit room. shot by a camera that wasn't swinging around all
the time.
I think we would have been much less inclined to forgive them
because they look preposterous and you know how there's that thing
the Doctor Who monster thing.
I think most recently we saw it with the Fisher King, but the
classic moment of it is when those, the sea devils come out of the
sea and they just look like actors with turtle hats on, you know
like, like, like, you know, whenever you're looking at Doctor Who
Monster and you go, those holes at the top of its chest is where
the actor is looking out, you know.
And so you hear, the monster's giant mouths that just look like
they're sort of painted on these.
It's kind of...
My favourite thing about the sea devils is when they come out of
the water and they're like, you can see water sluishing out of the
gaps in the makeup and they're wearing that mesh outfit that looks
like Belinda Carlisle's dress on a go-go's tour, you know, like
and it's just a weird, it's just a...
I't know how to feel looking at me.
They have to drill holes in the bottom of the masks to let the
water out.
As the thing?
The heads kept floating off.
Yeah, that's fast.
Yeah.
So they do suffer a little bit from that, I think.
But I like the sound design of them because they sound like sound
that I'm very familiar with, which is that it sounds like the
noises that middle-aged men make when they're sort of sleeping or
waking up or snoring and stuff.
And so I feel really seen by these particular boys.
It's a lot sort of... sort of stuff that growling.
I think that is pretty great.
It was all recorded by a sound guy who just watched Stephen
Moffatt pick up a pencil that he dropped. is groaning and
Scottish.
You know, this story has a really long and torturous evolution.
It was originally pitched as an idea, I believe, during the 2010
season development.
Gatus came up with this idea.
It was originally supposed to be a two-parter.
The 1st part would have been...
Probably fortunate.
I acknowledged that it was fortunate.
The 1st part would have been this kind of setup. without the found
footage that came in later to try and make it work a bit better.
And then the 2nd part would have been seeing the aftermath or like
another version of that would have been, if the other way around
which would have quite worked in this season.
And he actually did propose that initially.
Yeah, you'd come into it and then you'd go back and see how it
happened when they were developing this season.
But because of the...
Under the light.
I've had it already before the flood episodes, Moffat said, no, you
can't do that.
And that's how they arrived at the found footage.
I think it's probably preferable that we ended up where we did
although that idea, I think, could work as well.
But it's another example for me, a good example of how you make
the 45 minute self-contained episode format of the show work.
It has the feeling of a short story rather than the feeling of a
feature film which is being crunched into 45 minutes.
Although, I have to say that at exactly the halfway point, At the
end of part two, we get the gravity, you know, the gravity
shields.
Falling into Neptune, breaking down at exactly the point where the
sand miners motive thing stopped working.
Keeps going.
And then later on we discover that Shearsmith's character only did
that to provide an exciting bit in the middle of the episode to
keep his victims watching.
He literally admits that it's only there for that reason.
And I think the impression that I get is that the signal in the
episode only works if you've seen it enough.
And so that's why it's only towards the end of the episode that we
start seeing things from our point of view.
And it's never made super clear, but again, you know, found
footage and whatever.
I mean, is he off in the other room editing this whole damn
thing?
Like, anyway, doesn't matter.
Look, how do you critiqued the perhaps poor realisation of the
monsters?
I want to compliment the fantastic visualisation of Neptune and
that sequence that you just mentioned of regardless of whether
it's just made up for the sake of exciting bit in the episode or
not, which they can't acknowledge.
But that's very meta actually to do it that way, isn't it?
But he has this wonderful sense of, and this is another reason why
I like this episode.
It has this wonderful sense of we are so far away from the warmth
of the sun.
The visualisation of Neptune that you get and you don't get a nice
clear shot of it.
You just get a bit of it out of porthole window and it's all
shaking, so you kind of have a really good look at it.
It just really makes me think of the fact that, you know, we are
in the outer reaches of the solar system.
It is cold, it is dark.
There is no one anywhere to help.
We are on our own and I think that that's incredibly effective.
I really liked that Neptune idea like a lot.
And when he says it like right up front that this station is in
orbit of Neptune.
That's super interesting.
I did go on TARDIS Wakia and I learned that the great catastrophe
is supposed to be the earth's imminent catastrophic collision with
the sun that Turlow mocks Tegan with at the beginning of
Frontios.
And so perhaps we're all on the outskirts of the solar system at
this point because remember, all of the people live on Triton
don't they?
But is it the 38?
century or something. isn't it?
Yeah, that's the problem.
It's not it's not late enough or whatever.
I think, I mean, it could be, it could be the solar flare thing
because isn't Nerve a Beacon supposed to be the 20th century, late
29th, early 30th century, yeah.
There's a 1000000 things it could be.
But like, whatever, and he's super...
But who cares?
I mean, you know, the age about it.
There are many futures.
Yeah, yeah.
It's interesting, James, what you said about, like, you know, the
how long Mark Gatis had been working on it because my initial
thought was this felt very 1st draughty because there's a bunch of
things that happen in it that I feel like come out of nowhere
because he's painted himself into a corner.
So like the, the, the monster's not being able to see all of a
sudden and the doctor revealing that.
That's something that wasn't really hinted at and now all of a
sudden it's there.
But I think it's actually hearing what you say, it actually makes
more sense now that probably he's worked on it a lot.
And he's put in everything that he likes about the idea.
And so there's just a lot going on in here.
Like normally there's like some late stage anti-capitalism
commentary going on in there, which is always great, some anti
industry stuff.
There's, you know, um, genetic modification stuff is going on in
there.
There's so much happening.
There's a weird sort of military commentary that's going on.
I'm sure we'll talk about, and there's all this stuff, and I think
part of the problem is at the end, unless you really latch on to a
good idea and follow it through.
There's just so much noise that it's hard to kind of take the one
or 2 big themes, you know?
Yes, I think that's probably true.
I think possibly also it's because he couldn't make his original
concepts work for various reasons either because he'd been stewing
on it for a long time and it wasn't quite, you know, it wasn't
quite coming together.
The original concept had these, it was much more about a satire of
late stage capitalism.
There were 2 factions.
There were the Whiteys and the rips.
Does that nearly be in there?
Oh, the Whiteys and the ribs, yeah.
Yeah, the Whitey thing.
The wide awake thing does get in there, but the rip thing
doesn't.
No, but doesn't doesn't...
Doesn't the leader say of Chopra that he's talking like a rib or
something like that?
like I didn't quite get that. something like that.
Yeah, so that might have remained because he's the only one who
hasn't used the thing.
It's not like data has to be quite like political in that way, is
it?
Yeah, I think it's just, I mean, it's interesting that they, you
know, the sleep thing, the whole point of, you know, only needing
half an hour sleep every month or whatever the hell it is, is, you
know, is a time is money thing.
Whereas it's kind of like, I mean, in the real world now.
I mean, what I wouldn't give to be able to only have to sleep half
an hour, a night or something.
And I'm not saying how much more I'd get done in terms of my
business.
I get, well, look at all this stuff I could watch. read these
books.
It's interesting that they don't focus on what would be how
leisure would change.
I think you're supposed to have the impression that it's more like
a series of, you know, 80s advertising executives snorting Coke so
that they can, you know, work all night to get their brief
together.
Yeah.
But they do, they do hint at that because the commander is very
positive on it and doesn't feel exploited and has that line where
she says she enjoyed, like this is great for us. you know, all
this sort of stuff.
So there is, I think, once again, I think there is like, it's not
like there's a dearth of ideas, which, you know, to be honest, like
some of Gaitas's stuff has been very, in the past, and I like his
his stuff overall.
I think Crimson Horror is really great.
Not quite dead is great.
Um, But they tend to be less layered with huge ideas and more
about a single idea that he wants to explore fully.
And this one feels much more like he's throwing everything that he
can at this story.
And I feel like it's, it's one of his most ambitious ones.
And even though I don't like it, I'd rather have a big swing and a
miss than people who don't swing at all and just kind of want to
tell a standard Doctor Who story, whatever that is.
I mean, in one way, it positions itself, though, as a standard
Doctor Who story, doesn't it?
I mean, that's what Rasmusen says about it at the end.
He says, you know, I've put some monsters in.
I've put some thrills.
There's a big climax at the end and then we all go off.
And in a way, there is something a little bit generic about what
we end up with.
Not the found footage stuff, that is unique, and that is the thing
that the show hasn't done before, but I did feel like the space
corridors were all very kind of the sort of thing that we've seen
before quite a lot.
And yeah, it's the kind of thing that you always end up comparing
unfavourably to the impossible planet, you know, that the
Impossible Planet is the place where we nail the base under siege
by giving every character a really clear identity, making them all
different from one another, characterising them really well in a
way that maybe only Russell T. Davies can actually achieve.
Here, you've only got the 4 characters plus Erasmusen, and I think
they're all a lot less interesting than those characters from
Impossible Planet.
Oh, look, I entirely agree with you that those characters are not
particularly interesting.
But in some respects, James, it surprises me that that is the
backstory of the genesis of this episode because for me, if I was
just guessing, I would have said they had an idea for what was
going to be a fairly generic episode.
And they did all the found footage stuff as a way of making it
more interesting.
That sounds like it something else.
Yeah, doesn't it?
Does it?
Well, so the found that you're saying the found footage wasn't in
that original two-part idea.
No, it comes back later.
Well, there you go.
Well, okay, well, then my instinct is correct.
I'm sorry.
I slightly misinterpreted what you meant.
But I think that that for me kind of demonstrates this is a
creativity.
Look, we're going to do a generic episode, but we're going to mask
the generic nature of it by presenting it in a completely
different way.
And in a way that we've never done before and we're never going to
do it again.
Well, except when you think about 42, where 42 is, again
horrifyingly generic in a particularly cheap new way, and it has
the, it's in real time, and so we're going to flash to a countdown
clock or, you know, all the time.
So it's very similar, I think.
And I think likewise, the characters are not very well drawn, I
think.
That that element of it gets forgotten in the in the process.
Yeah, I'm slightly worried about the woman who seems to be played
by a woman of Chinese background.
She's supposed to be Japanese, but the joke is she's supposed to
be Japanese, but she talks with a northern accent, which I think
is, that's a bit of a gay to-sy thing, and I think it's a bit
unfortunate, and I want to compare it to Belle, uh, in flux
remember, who is a woman of like Asian background who spoke with a
really, really strong northern Irish accent.
That's a British thing.
Yeah, yeah.
People who are immigrants into Britain tend to adopt.
No, everyone in a really strong way. everyone does.
But in a way, it's almost like a thing.
It's like that's all he's come up with is she calls everyone pet
and she speaks with a Northern accent and that's a character.
And then you've got, then you've got Bethany Black's character who
I think Tit is on the edge of being a little bit offensive.
So this is the 1st time we cast a transgender actor.
Bethany Black is very, very outspoken and knows her mind.
Do you know what I mean?
I don't think she's been tricked into doing this from all reports
she loved being in Doctor Who and loved playing this part.
But I do think it is a little bit unfortunate, our 1st transgender
actress cast as a weird sexless drone character who gets called it
by, you know, at least one of the other characters.
And then you've got Chopper who's pretty, which I don't object
to.
That's a perfectly valid characterisation. of a character.
He really is very...
Well cast from the script.
Yes, what's my character's motivation?
You're pretty.
Yeah, no, I love it.
More of that, please, Mr. Gay.
Yeah, and to go back to Bethany Black, too.
I mean, you know, it's a super unfortunate thing because she's
othered throughout the entire story, right?
So, you know, it's an opportunity to cast the transactor for the
1st time in the show, which is wonderful, but you're casting them
as an oddity, and she is a figure of debate and marginalisation.
And even the doc, it's kind of reminds me in a weird way of Wang
Chiang.
Even the doctor implies that she's not very smart and that, you
know, this is, you know, and like, doesn't stand up for her or any
of that, nobody does, right?
And I don't think that this is an intentional thing.
I don't think that anybody wanted to create something that other
the 1st transactor, but it does, and it feels very off-putting
now.
And it's, it's, I think the thing that does make the episode sort
of unpleasant. in an otherwise, I think, um, flawed but
interesting episode.
Like, I think it's way more interesting than 42.
Yeah.
I don't know if it's as enjoyable for me as 42 because I think you
can just kind of surf along 42's plot moments and not be bothered
by it.
Nothing about it.
Yeah, but I like this one.
Well, yeah, no.
Yeah.
You know, David Tennant with his teeth saying burn with me.
I don't need to ever see that again.
Yeah, some proper teeth acting happening there.
And also, you know, I think that she's not given a moment to
really redefine anybody's point of view.
I mean, Chopper does that on his own.
Do you know what I mean?
And she just sort of does the thing that she stated to do at the
beginning, which is to be sort of a physical presence.
And that's a, it's just a real, real missed, like a real missed
opportunity.
I think it has a reasonably nice ending.
Like, I do like the fact that at the end, she saves chopra, tells
him he's pretty and for the 1st time he doesn't flinch away from
it.
He smiles, you know, like, so there's some attempt to humanise her
but it's in the narrative, it's not any of the characters, and
you're right.
It's not the doctor either.
Yeah, it's too little too late.
Yeah, well, that's, well, it's not, it's more the fact that the
doctor does not treat them well.
And I think it comes back to what we sort of discussed before
about these issues.
I mean, this transactor has been cast in this role.
The role wasn't created for a transactor per se, I presume.
It was just the fact that they decided that this person had the
right look that they were after for whatever reason.
I mean, I know it's all sort of troubling and so on difficult, but
he's so hard.
Because the character itself is not supposed to be a trans
character.
It's just a character.
But the character is supposed to be a genetically created grunt
person.
Like basically a dog's body. that, do I read that, right?
Or a soldier, right?
As soldier, like, but a grunt soldier?
basically cannon fodder, probably.
A foot soldier to basically follow waters and not basically have a
revolution or anything like that.
So we don't, obviously, we don't explore all the issues around
that. admittedly, because that's a whole other question to
explore.
Maybe it's better not to even have such a such a creature.
I don't know.
Maybe is it just better just to have a member of the crew who is
thick, who is, you know, a bit slow or whatever?
I don't know.
I mean, I think it is just another one of these sort of huge
bucket load of ideas that's been thrown at this, as Jeremy said.
Look, we are about to get proper trans ramp in the show with
Yasmin Finney, who was in Heartstopper, which was my pick of the
week last week.
And I think Russell will be showing us how to do that properly.
And I think we'll see an improvement in just representation all
around.
I think the people who are expecting the Chibnal era to be an
anomaly are in for a horrible surprise, I think, when Russell
comes back.
Yeah.
So I think it will be done right.
And like I said, Bethany Blake's not stupid.
She knew what she was doing and she liked the part and she was
happy to play the role.
And so, you know, there's that at least, but, but I have to admit
that I am still a little bit uncomfortable with how it turned out
but I do like that scene at the end.
And that is the closest that we get to any kind of
characterisation is that she thinks that chopra is pretty and and
chopra is pretty dismissive of and contentious of it and that's
all we have.
You know, Peter said, Peter was here just now, and he said, it's
like giving David Warner's character that Ultravox fandom thing
it's like just a sort of a bit of a limp shortcut for actually
giving someone a character gives someone a notable characteristic
which makes them memorable.
My friend calls that the cappuccino thing, which it comes from a
Will Smith movie called Enemy of the State, where he's obsessed
with getting good coffee, like a good coffee maker.
There's a scene in the beginning where he's just angry about they
don't have the right coffee maker in their house.
It doesn't have anything to do with the plot.
It, just a way of saying, here's a human being with like some sort
of likes and dislike that you can maybe latch onto.
And he always points it out. oh, it's a cappuccino moment.
They made that guy like a baseball card collector and it's just
it's just a shorthand, right?
it works or doesn't.
Yeah.
But when you compare it, like the one person that I think that
that Russell does, remember in partners in crime, remember Stacy
Donna's interviewing Stacy and Stacy is a very definite person and
like her death lands.
And, you know, it's the genius of making her having lost weight.
She's going to go and dump her boyfriend because she reckons she
can do better now.
It's so awesome and it's so fun.
It's so well done.
It's funny and warm and humane and real. in a way that this isn't
you know.
Yes, but it's a very different tone.
It's a very different tone of an episode.
And he does it twice in that episode too, because Russell also
creates that reporter character investigating the adipo stuff
who's like a almost like Russell saying, hey, look, this would be
typically the companion, but she's not going to be, but she's
still going to be interesting, and it's just sort of, I always
think like we have a really hard time because we've had 2 absolute
geniuses of television, Russell and Moffatt work on it, and they
can do stuff like that, especially character work with Davies.
He can do stuff in a 2nd that writers sweat over for months and
months and months.
And so, it's sometimes not fair.
We've been spoiled, right?
You know, that that we have a writer that can do that.
So it's nice that he's coming back.
I mean, I'm sure you will have that thing where there is an
episode which is, say, really, really well loved or really, really
loathed by the general populace and you have the opposite view.
Now, sometimes you go, yeah, yeah, I get that it's a bit rubbish
but I just have a sauce buffer.
I love it because of this at the other.
This is actually an example of one which I think, you know, is to
put it in sort of Todd's parlance is kind of a 7 out of 10, a
reasonably solid episode.
But I was looking at some Dwim stuff.
And online, and this is like utterly despised.
Like this is often in like the bottom 20 of all time.
I mean, it's it's level with the on the list that I was looking
at.
It's level with Kill the Moon and in the forest of the night.
Things like time lash, things like, you know, those sorts of
episodes.
Yeah, exactly.
And that absolutely, I'm actually quite bewildered by that.
I can understand that people think, 0 yeah, it's a bit mediocre
doesn't work here.
It's a bit rubbish.
But to have it that far down that really surprises me.
I feel the same way.
I don't think it's that great, and I did think this time through
that it was a bit less good than I thought it was previously
thought it was.
See, I had the Todd experience.
Oh, did you?
Well, I don't think I'd really watch it more than once.
And I thought it deserved to be down there with time match.
I quite like things I quite like timelash.
Yeah, but you acknowledge rubbish.
No, no, no, no.
And I thought, oh, it was enjoyable, but it was kind of pants.
Watching it now.
I thought, this is this is quite good.
I quite enjoyed it.
But it is in many people's, like, bottom 2 or three.
It's like this and fear her, isn't it?
Yeah, for her, kill the moon.
I do think like, you know what's funny to me though?
Like, I would have said that before I watched it.
When you guys asked me about which stories I'd like to do, I put a
bunch of like awesome stories and I'm like, heck, I'll even do
sleep no more.
I'm such a fan of your show that I was just like, I'll just sleep
no more.
And then, and then I, I, I instantly, when you came back and said
let's do sleep no more.
I'm like, come on, bottomly, screws me again. someone, too, you
know, and that was me.
That was you.
That was awesome.
Thank you, James.
So then I sat down to watch it.
And I was like, you know what?
Like, apologies to Simon.
But I don't think it works, but even though it doesn't work, I
still think that the stuff that he's trying.
Like, if I have to be forced to watch this or say Planet of the
Dead, which I think cruises along just fine, but is really about
nothing. you know, you know what I mean?
Like, it's really just a bust on a desert and it's so vanilla and
safe.
You know, it's just, I would actually kind of rather watch this.
To me, the only thing that, that really keeps me from knocking it
up to a 7 out of 10 is, is, uh, is the fact that the doctor kind
of wobbles around and does some exposition and then leaves going
I'm missing something and I just feel like that's a bit odd.
Can I ask the question?
Do you guys think that this is a completely unreliable narrative?
Do you think that the point of this episode is what we see is not
necessarily the adventure that was had?
Does it go that far as a story?
I don't think so. don't think so.
Yeah, it's an interesting way of doing it, but no, they didn't.
I think it would have been great if they did.
Yes, I agree. agree with that.
I think, you know, everything you're seeing is real.
Footage, but it's been edited together to mislead you, but in that
sense, it's unreliable, but...
Not to the sort of the verboids kind of extent.
Yeah, no, not to that extent, no.
But I think that, like, I think in a way that's obviously an
unanswerable question because all we have access to is the
broadcast.
I also think that it's clear that the found footage thing is a
late addition because it doesn't go anywhere.
Like, the fact now that Clara is transmitting.
Does that mean that she's been affected by this?
You know, she has...
Well, yes, because she's made the machine.
Yeah.
She's been in the machine, but does that mean that she's going to
die, you know, or that she's going to start spouting eye booger
men or something?
Like, what even is the outcome?
you know?
So that just seems to be just a thin layer on top of it, like a
presentational layer.
The episode doesn't seem to be about the fact that it's found
footage.
And so I think that there's just not enough there for that.
I don't think it's unreliable.
I think it is just weird directing it in a slightly different
way.
They could have not sold that.
You know, instead of just not dealing with it at all.
They could have not solved that.
Had her dying from the Eyebooger transformation process in Face of
Raven and so she's already on borrowed time and chooses to die.
Yeah, no, that would be terrible.
No, it would have been terrible.
The pained look on Simon's face every time someone says hi, booger
is really just...
Yes, thank you for that piece of North American culture, but I
think we'll revert this as an Australian-based podcast, so we're
going to call it sleep, all right?
Well okay.
I'm just saying if this had been made in North American, in the
70s, Robert Holmes would have called it a death to the eye boogers
or attack of the eye. would have been great.
Invasion of the eye.
Invasion of the eye. iBook is in space.
Oh, that beat.
Space Space Space Space.
Oh, that is great.
Where is they?
They should have said Space Museum.
Space restaurants, space, champagne, and space.
Oh, I don't know hats.
Yes, just the fact that it falls so flat.
The 3rd choice is so bad.
It's wonderful.
It's just awesome.
And then space pirates get sped immediately and she wins.
It's so good.
And from the podcast that brought you space reasons.
We're doing a show where there's space medicine, space surgeons
space crises.
Space, yeah, space crisis, in, in, like, 7 years.
Yeah, initially I wanted every episode of Maximum Power to space
something. excellent.
Okay.
Let's talk about the end, though.
So the doctor says that he doesn't get something and he goes off
and then the plan is to go to Triton and destroy all of the
Morpheus pods.
So the story doesn't resolve because he never really finds out
what's going on.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's effective.
Why does he think he doesn't know what's going on?
I think he's missed the signal.
That's what he's missed.
Yeah, he's missed the explanation by Rasmussen, which is done to
camera, which basically says, well, actually, no, you know, I
tricked you into this.
The signal is the thing that's converting the sleep in your eye.
Like, you know, I've been transmitting the signal.
The doctor doesn't get that bit thinks that the thing and the
pod...
Yeah, is...
Is what's going to transmit...
And so he thinks he's solved that, but actually he's lost.
All those people on Driton are going to die.
No, but not only that, everyone watching this episode of Doctor
Who is going to die.
Yeah.
And that's obviously the whole human race.
So this is one of the rare moments and it happens just from time
to time in Doctor Who, where the audience is directly threatened
by Watts on screen.
And so because we've watched this episode despite being told not
to.
That means that all of us are inevitably going to die from
watching this.
And I think of, do you remember the moment in the pirate planet
where the pirate captain is going to materialise around earth?
And it's kind of like, but that's where I am.
You know, like when I was a kid.
You know?
And also in Dalek's master plan where in real time, the dialects
are heading towards Earth and they're going to hit Earth, like on
New Year's Day or whatever, when the next episode's broadcast.
And so just every so often, the audience gets threatened by what's
happening on Doctor Who and here it is.
You watch this episode and this episode is the episode that kills
you.
It's a pretty bold move starting an episode of Doctor Who saying
don't watch this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's really good because, like, I like those sort of
weird corner cases and stuff, which we can't possibly follow up
but what has actually happened here is the doctor has failed to
stop the broadcast.
And so everyone in the 38th century, all of humankind is, according
to Rasmussen's plan, all going to die and the doctor didn't stop
it.
And not only that, we're all going to die as well because we've
watched the episode.
It'll be resolved at some time in the future.
This is like, you know, a different way around you'd have done the
2nd episode where because of something the doctor failed to do
years ago, the human race is under threat, blah, blah, blah, blah
blah.
So I don't mind that unquestioned thing, but also for some reason
I'm not thinking that, you know, everyone's going to dissolve into
sleep dust monsters over the course of the next week.
For me, I sort of read it as a more this insidious thing, like the
sleep dust monsters are living inside you now.
Like, it's, it's like, it's like aliens, uh, in the, the embryo
has been planted in all these people and through the Morpheus
machines and, and in some people, it will grow and manifest itself
but in other people, it won't, it'll lay dormant for dozens, 100s
1000s of years, whatever it is.
That was kind of my chosen reading of it.
I don't know.
Gatus did sort of deliberately leave this on that kind of
unresolved cliffhanger because he did think maybe I'll come back
to this and we could do a sequel story where we deal with the
aftermath of that.
But I actually don't want there to be.
I don't want there to be a resolution.
I think that's the whole point is that I mean, so thank goodness
that we didn't.
I compared it when I to Brian when I we were watching it
yesterday.
I compared it to Musk, End of Master Man, Draguara, where, you
know, the doctor says, the doctor says, oh, the Mandragara helix
will be back in lineman in 500 years, which and Sarah goes, but
that's the end of the 20th century.
And he says, yes, that was an interesting century.
And the point is, we never see.
It's not like in season 15, there is then a 2nd Master of Mandrago
story set in the late 20th century.
You don't need that.
It's just that kind of underlying threat that you've got.
Yeah, and I like story.
I mean, like, it does that in the impossible planet, Satan Pit, too
where they at the end where she says, what was it?
And he goes, I think we beat it and that's good enough for me
right?
And so I do like leaving that unresolved for sure.
And it is bold to start off an episode saying, don't watch this.
The only other person who's ever done that is Eric Sayword, I
think, who's implied don't watch this with every story he wrote.
The thing that we haven't mentioned is one of the benefits of it
being this found footage thing where so often people are looking
down the camera, isn't it great when Capaldi looks into the camera
there's nothing quite like those eyes looking straight at you and
talking.
I think that's just a great feature of the episode.
It's wonderful, isn't it?
Absolutely wonderful.
We didn't mention Peep show, which is a show that entirely does
this where the camera is always a subjective view of one of the
characters.
But yes, having Capaldi deliver the lines directly to camera is
just tremendous because he's just so amazingly good.
Yes, so good.
And it's so, um, it's so funny too, because the dialogue's very
utilitarian and very functional with everyone, even Rasmussen's
narration, which I think is a little on the nose from time to time
but I think it's, he's, it's supposed to be, um, because he's
painting a picture.
But the 2nd that Capaldi and Coleman are on screen. the level of
banter that just kind of comes up and and there's just a 1000000
funny little jokes and a 1000000 moments that are just, it makes
me happy to see them working together.
I just, when they're really sparking and they're not being too
antagonistic, but they're working together, it's a great
combination, those 2, because they just sparkle and he is great at
both intimidating, but also playing with the other supporting
characters of the scene.
So he never, like Tom, never dominates to the point where people
don't look good.
He always makes them look better because of how much he's, you
know, sparking off of them.
So anyways, I just, I couldn't talk enough about Capaldi.
This might be my only chance.
So this is what I'm going to say.
I think he's he's superb.
My, I think has always been that my biggest regret is that the
episodes he's given or at least some of the characterisation of
his doctor, I just, I just think are wasted.
I think as an actor, as a doctor, I think he's absolutely perfect
casting.
I love him to bits.
But Matt Smith, for me, of the modern era is by far and away my
favourite by light ears.
Yeah, I love him a lot too. and I think I spent the whole Matt
Smith era of FDE saying that he was my favourite doctor.
He is pretty incredible.
Yeah.
I think the thing with Capaldi is that since he was cast, since
he's been in it, I said, you know, he is probably one of the best
actors to ever play the role.
But until I was rewatching the era for the podcast.
I didn't kind of cement the, actually, no, here's my favourite
doctor in this in this role.
Like he is, he just gets it.
Yeah.
I mean, Matt Smith gets it in a different way, and I think that's
just incredible.
Just the character contains multitudes, you know?
So, I mean, that's that's it's an actor proof part, right?
Yeah, I think so too.
As long as you bring something to it.
Um, it's just impossible to fail.
It really is.
I can't think of any actor and there have been actors of, uh
greater strength and lesser strength that have taken on the part
but honestly, it's, it's impossible to see, uh, someone who
wouldn't get this part.
It's like getting Sherlock Holmes or something.
You know, you just are Hamlet.
You just like, I can grab hold of this.
There's too much to to hold on to to miss on it, you know?
Well, they listener, that's all the time we have for this week.
We'll be back next week to see how Rigsy has been getting on, In
Face the Raven.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety
com, where you'll find all of our social media links, as well as
links to our other podcasts, including startling Barbara Bain
maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.
Until next time, may the gods look favourably upon you.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
Bye bye.
Good night.
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Simon
Moore, Jeremy Radick, and James Selwood, theme arrangement by
Cameron Lamb.
This episode, the cappuccino thing, was recorded on the 17th of
September 2023, and released on the 12th of November.
Sleep no more isn't a particularly popular episode, but imagine if
Gators are gone with his original idea.
A space station orbiting Neptune, where an evil corporation finds
an alarming new way to monetise its employees' blue brakes.
So let's do, let's do, I'm Nathan, I'm James.
I'm Simon, I'm Jeremy.
And I'm Jeremy.
That good.
People always forget the anime.
At the end.
Yeah, I even got Eric Stadnick to say at Som Erik in the...
Oh, I'm sure...
Pfizer Pompeii episode where we delivered it in Latin at the
beginning.
I'm sure he needed no prompting whatsoever to do.
It's so funny.
I love Eric.
I do too.
So great.
We really need to get him back on.
He and I share a birthday.
I'm exactly 10 years older than him and we also share our birthday
with Jenna Coleman and Russell T. Davis and Rose Tyler canonically
according to one of those early annuals that came out.
You know, like.
That sounds like a hell of a podcast.
And Jenna Coleman.
Yeah, imagine that.
Wow.
Russell on saying how marvellous everything is in general and
saying how dreadful it was.
Yes.
Okay, all right.
So what we'll do, we'll do the intro and then we'll do the outro
and then we can just talk.
The rule is, I don't know if you've noticed the rule, but the rule
is that the guest on their 1st appearance on the show gets the
title.
So, you know, no pressure.
Remember to say something funny.
It's not that we had last year.
It was Roman of Sherwood, which was fala centric energy.
I know, that's a tough one to beat.
That was pretty good.
I think I had sparking pubic merkins in Zygon invasion.
So I think that that probably has to be that's probably that one
chosen, but I haven't chosen any time.
It's sad because my the only problem is that pubic merkin seems to
me like...
It's a tortology.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. yeah hat on a hat.
You want the word pubic in there.
Okay.
All right.
It's got our rudest time. pubic weaves.
Rudest title is still kind of lingers.
Which I didn't know was rude.
I didn't even spot it.
They were all going, how come we got away with that?
Nathan let that through anyway.
Like, there's a song.
Yeah, there is a song.
Isn't it from, it's from like, not the 9 o'clock news or
something.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's do this thing.
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast that directly affects the sleep
centres of your brain.
I'm Nathan.
I'm James.
I'm Simon.
I'm Jeremy.
What happened to the rest of the intro?
Oh, his his his notes haven't updated.
Oh, no.
While you're while you're looking them up.
My nephew's just finished 2020th in the Sydney Marathon with a
time of 3 hours and 39 minutes.
That's something.
Out of how many people?
I don't know.
But he's 17, 2020 overall, 1775th out of 12,167 men.
That's pretty good.
That's top 10%.
No, top 15%, yeah.
Yeah, for him.
All right, I can't find that.
I'll have to record it later off something.
I'll just leave this set up and we'll be fine.
Like, would it be on your computer?
Could you just ask?
No, I wrote it.
I don't know.
Yeah, maybe it is.
Let me just check.
This happened last time as well, didn't it?
Like the recording, it didn't tell.
Yes, here it is.
Here it is.
Okay, here it goes.
Well, the Blair Witch project was about 15 years ago at this point
so it must be just about time for Doctor Who to use it as a source
of inspiration.
Have you got something in your eye?
Let's find out as we discuss sleep no more.
All right.
And now we'll do the outro.
And again, good night in the same order.
Okay.
Well, dear listener, that's all the time we have for this.