WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:12:35

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I know for a fact that one of the reasons that Todd doesn't like

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this that much is because it doesn't have opening credits.

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That's one of the reasons I absolutely love it.

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I also think that's one of the best things about it, actually, is

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that it doesn't.

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It breaks all that convention.

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I actually kind of like that.

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I think because this isn't really a Doctor Who episode in the

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sense of a normal Doctor Who episode.

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It's an episode that in the story has been created by one of the

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characters out of footage available.

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So we don't see what happens.

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All we see is Rasmussen's version of what happened.

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So this is created by him.

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Well, evidently he couldn't find the opening title sequence on the

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cutting room. would be it.

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Yeah, it's...

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The 1st time I get worried is when I saw this episode and up

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popped Reese Shearsmith and I was like, oh, it's everyone's least

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favourite Patrick Trouton impersonator. you know, from the from

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the TV movie.

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You know, because I really was like, it's a thankless job to be

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given the job of portraying one of the most charismatic character

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actors of all time in like 5 minutes in a movie, but still I was

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like, uh-oh, like what's going to happen?

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For a 2nd there, I thought you were going to say, everyone's least

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favourite league of gentlemen.

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I was like, oh, that's a bit hard.

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Oh, no, no, no, no.

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He's great in that.

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I like the League of Gentlemen.

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I mean, he's the last one to appear.

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Obviously, we've had Mark Gatis over and over and over again at

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this and he's still got at least one appearance on camera left

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go.

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And then we had Pemberton in silence in the library, didn't we?

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So he was bound to turn up sooner or later, and to turn up in a

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Mark Gator script, given that Mark Gatis has written for him so

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much and knows what he can do.

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All we need now is Jeremy Dyson to write an episode.

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Yes. true.

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The interesting thing about this is that it's way out of Gatus's

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wheelhouse, I think.

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So Gatus can do horror, and that's a lot of what League of

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Gentlemen is.

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It's kind of 3 people, 4 people who were brought up on Hammer

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horror and using those tropes and playing with them and things.

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So that's definitely here.

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But Gatus doesn't normally go for 38th century and stuff.

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He's usually, you know, his nostalgia, isn't he?

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He's the reasonably recent past.

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Yeah, and he also is like, um, I think really referential to a

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certain section of Doctor Who, like the 3rd and 2nd doctor eras

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are his eras that he's referential too.

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So it's interesting for him to do sort of a base under siege story

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with this one, but in his own way, and pull in the found footage

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element of it.

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So, I mean, I think that's interesting.

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And I also feel like, I don't know if you guys agree, but I also

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feel like he's doing a Stephen Moffatt impression in this story

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right?

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So like, I think he's deliberately kind of moving away from the

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type of stories he's written before to see if he can do it the way

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Stephen Moffatt does it, and we'll see how well that works out for

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him.

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Yeah, well, the taking the taking of the mundane that Moffat is so

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good at that, which is a Doctor Who thing, but Moffat takes it to

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its kind of nth degree off and taking something like sleep from

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the corner of your eye and making that into the monster.

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That's a very Moffat thing.

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The other Moffat thing, I think, is the idea of a framing device

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that ends up interacting and becoming part of the narrative.

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And so we're actually in the next room later in the episode when

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Rasmussen starts doing his decamera of monologue.

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And so he's actually recording that while the episode's going on.

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Did anyone see the Stephen Moffat Dracula thing, the three-part?

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Yeah, because 2 of those 3 parts did exactly the same thing, where

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we have the story being narrated as a framing device and then the

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framing device ends up part of the narrative.

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It's a classic Moffat theme.

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So it's interesting to see him try to do that and especially also

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try to do it in, in a found footage format, which, from a horror

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point of view, is like one of the bleaker, You know, the reason

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why the, it's called found footage is it's, it's usually found

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after everybody involved in the story is dead, you know, and so

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you know, the idea behind it is sort of to bring it to reclaim it

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and there's a certain degree of, um, of cynicism or not cynicism, a

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nihilism, I guess, to the, to those stories, which is an

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interesting thing to bring to Doctor Who, because fundamentally we

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watch the show to watch the doctor win.

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And so this is an interesting episode in that regard, or at least

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bold in what it's trying to do, I thought.

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Because, of course, the other thing is that sort of Japanese

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horror thing, things like the ring as well, where you have a video

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that if you watch it, you're going to die.

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And that's what this episode is, isn't it?

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Yeah, I mean, I think it's, well, is it?

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I mean, I don't know.

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I think that part of the problem that I have with it is that like

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it starts off being something and then becomes something else and

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the thing that it winds up being is sort of not anywhere other in

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the story except in that epilogue, right?

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So I don't know if you guys want to go through it from start to

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finish, but that's one of the things that I have trouble with at

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the end, where it's like the rules get completely, the Apple cart

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gets kicked over entirely based on what we thought we were

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watching.

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And I'm not sure that it expends enough shoe leather to really

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make me buy it other than.

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It's just sort of crammed full of narrative.

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I didn't know, I can see what you're saying, that the rules do

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change, but that's sort of what's appealing for me in the sense

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that, you know, he starts by sort of saying, you don't want to

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watch this. basically.

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You don't want to watch this.

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It's awful.

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And in that usual sort of way, things get worse and worse, the

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situations get worse and worse and worse.

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And it is all quite chaotic.

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And I think it's not meant to make perfect sense from that found

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footage way because, you know, we don't have everything covered

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because we've pieced this together from what's available.

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And I think I like the fact that it comes across to me, not as a

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rule change, but as a twist in the end when we discovered that

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well, actually, no, by watching this video, you've now been

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infected with the sleep dust.

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I don't know, it's it all.

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I mean, I'm not saying it's perfect, and I think there are some

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moments where it doesn't quite work, but I think it is certainly

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very gripping, entertaining.

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I was completely with it the entire way through and on subsequent

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viewings as well.

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See, my history with it is a little bit different because I

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remember we were chatting and it may have been during lockdown and

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we were all kind of chatting in a sort of FTE group and Brandon

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was saying how much he hated this.

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This is one of his very, very, you know, it's down there with

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Black Orchid.

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Yeah, he really, really strongly dislikes it.

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And I thought, no, no, it can't be as bad as that.

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And I've said before on the podcast that this season of Doctor Who

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is the one that I know least well.

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The one that I'm least familiar with.

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It gets released as we're really starting flights through entirety

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and I'm having to watch 40 episodes of Black and White Doctor Who

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a month.

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And, you know, so I don't think I end up opening the Blu-ray box

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set when it arrives or whatever.

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So I don't know this at all.

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And I did watch it and I thought it was better than I expected.

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But watching it this time, I had the same experience as you, Jeremy

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I think that the twist doesn't land, that it's not, it's not

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telegraphed well enough.

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And I think it's confusing at the end exactly what he's trying to

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do because there's also that feint that there's a monster in the

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box that's going to be sent to Triton and that's going to start

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infecting people some other way.

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And then psych.

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No, it's the episode you've been watching all along.

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I just don't think he gets to land it quite so much.

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And there are some direction things as well.

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So forgive me if I'm wrong.

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So this is where I think it makes an attempt to be about this.

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So it's not completely a surprise that the, it's the episode

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that's the plan.

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So he says, don't watch this at the beginning, just about

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immediately we hear the static that is the thing that's conveying

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the message.

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And we hear it again and again, and there's no reason why we

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should hear it if it's just found footage.

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Do you know what I mean?

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It's one of those things that's hiding in plain sight.

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It's like, well, he's editing this together.

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What's the static?

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Like, why?

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Well, static is the better.

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He's transmitted it from this.

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The static is because he's transmitting it from a space station

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which is falling into Neptune.

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And so there's, there's, it's not like they've found a disc or a

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recording.

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It's a transmission which is being interrupted by stuff.

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Yeah, I don't think that's the way I was reading it.

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I don't think that's bad at all.

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It's there and then we get it reinterpreted.

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That thing that you've heard over and over again in this episode

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that you just assumed was that is in fact the is in fact the

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message.

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And then you get the clever thing where Clara only starts

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transmitting an image after she's been in the Morpheus box.

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Morpheus machine.

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And she does that almost immediately.

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And then I think towards the end of the episode, we start to have

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things from our point of view transmitted to us.

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So there is footage that is clearly not the POV of any of the

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characters in the scene, but it's also not the black and white

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footage that we're used to getting from the station.

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And so we have started to be infected by the end of the episode.

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It only starts to happen at the end.

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You remember that scene where you see Clara's point of view and on

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the screen behind the doctor?

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There's, you know, that image that she's seeing as well.

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We get one of those scenes as well, where what we see is what's on

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the screen as well, and it doesn't seem to be from someone else.

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So I think it does, like, it's not a twist that comes completely

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out of nowhere, but I do think it is a bit confusing and it

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doesn't seem to be like anything that the rest of the episode is

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about.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, look, it's a sort of a Je ne sais quoi for me

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because as I've sort of said sometimes before, there are episodes

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that you don't like and you find all these reasons why they're bad

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there are episodes that you like and you excuse all the stuff

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that's wrong with it.

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Yeah, because there's a je ne saisquoir about them that you just

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for some reason, it speaks to you.

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And that's what I get with this episode.

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I'm prepared to acknowledge.

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Well, actually, I'm prepared to sort of acknowledge what you've

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just said about the fact that the twist sort of comes out of

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nowhere. not telegraphed enough.

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But I kind of like the fact that that's not telegraphed out of

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nowhere.

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Now, I agree that in another episode I'd have said, oh, well

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that's just ridiculous.

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Theyve just made that up at the end and it's all horrible and they

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had no i- they had didn't know how to finish the episode.

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I completely acknowledge that.

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So I acknowledge that that's a bit of inconsistency that one might

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have, but I think that is masked by the fact that it is this

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chaotic found footage thing that you can get away with that kind

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of error in it.

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And I think part of the thing that I like about it is the fact

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that you get to the end.

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You're not entirely sure what you've just seen.

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And I think that's part of the point.

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So I think all of those things, you know, is it the monster in the

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Morpheus machine?

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Is it the static on the video, putting it in the eye?

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I think both things are true.

241
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I think there is no one thing going on necessarily.

242
00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:51.000
Well, that's the other thing about found footage, isn't it, that

243
00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:53.220
there's no director, and that's what makes this a little bit

244
00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:53.639
different.

245
00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:56.399
Like found footage is just what's lying around.

246
00:11:56.460 --> 00:12:00.299
Here we've got a very definite kind of, you know, an editor

247
00:12:00.299 --> 00:12:04.440
someone who's telling a story for a particular purpose, but it is

248
00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:08.580
that thing, you know, that you don't have to have a neat story

249
00:12:08.580 --> 00:12:14.159
that hits all of the normal kind of script beards because it's

250
00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:18.539
found because it's an artefact rather than a, you know, like a

251
00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:19.799
Hollywood film or something.

252
00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:25.980
Yeah, and it's interesting because my, when I 1st saw it, My

253
00:12:25.980 --> 00:12:29.399
relationship to this era of Doctor, it's my favourite era of New

254
00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.360
Doctor Who, is these seasons with Peter Capaldi, and I recognise

255
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:36.840
there's a lot of issues that some people may have with it for

256
00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:37.019
sure.

257
00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:42.419
I'm not sure that it's the most well constructed era, but I think

258
00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:43.139
it's my favourite.

259
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.740
And part of it is because I love that Stephen Moffatt starts it

260
00:12:46.740 --> 00:12:48.840
off going, I'm not sure why I'm doing this anymore.

261
00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:51.899
So maybe the doctor shouldn't be sure why he's doing this anymore

262
00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:53.220
either, right?

263
00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:57.059
And it becomes an arc of someone finding a reason why to keep

264
00:12:57.059 --> 00:12:57.419
going.

265
00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:02.220
So I've watched it many times, but I've only before agreeing to do

266
00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:03.000
this podcast.

267
00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:04.379
I'd only seen this episode once.

268
00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:09.240
So that tells you that I legitimately just something about it.

269
00:13:09.299 --> 00:13:15.539
And I think, Part of it was that, I just felt a couple of problems

270
00:13:15.539 --> 00:13:19.379
really affect my enjoyment of it.

271
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:23.580
The 1st is that I think found footage works primarily because of

272
00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:26.639
our of our investment in the characters.

273
00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:29.820
And I think we'll probably talk about the supporting cast and the

274
00:13:29.820 --> 00:13:35.039
supporting characters of this, but they're very thinly drawn.

275
00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:38.220
Um, even for a horror movie plot, right?

276
00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:42.059
Um, and so it's hard to kind of get invested in it.

277
00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:47.039
And the 2nd thing is, is that the unreliable narration of the

278
00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:47.820
whole narrative.

279
00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:53.460
At the end, it's sort of, I think if you don't allow the audience

280
00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:58.139
to come along with you, and instead you're ahead of it, um, it can

281
00:13:58.139 --> 00:14:02.279
feel disingenuous or it can affect your suspension of disbelief.

282
00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:05.820
And the 3rd thing, and those 2 things, I think, are minor, but the

283
00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:09.840
3rd thing is, The fact of the monster itself is not.

284
00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:14.639
It ain't great, you know, I mean, like, it's a, the mundane thing

285
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:15.899
that he's transforming.

286
00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:21.059
I think, needed another polish to get to a point where my

287
00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:23.279
suspension of disbelief can be maintained.

288
00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:28.379
I don't have an answer for what this thing is that's better than

289
00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:32.759
what they give me and what they give me is not great to my mind.

290
00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:34.080
I honestly don't know.

291
00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:35.639
Is it called sleep dust?

292
00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:38.039
Where you guys are?

293
00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:38.879
Is that what it's called?

294
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.039
No, we just call it sleep.

295
00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:42.480
It's just called sleep.

296
00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:43.440
Okay, so yeah.

297
00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:46.740
Sleep is something that we call, and we call it, but we also call

298
00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:49.259
it eye crusties or eye boogers.

299
00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:52.019
And both of those things...

300
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:52.980
Yeah.

301
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:57.000
So, I mean, in North America, when when it was revealed what these

302
00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:00.360
creatures were, there was a lot of people that were like, hi

303
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:01.080
bookers, really?

304
00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:01.799
That's what they are.

305
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.399
Like, you know, they're walking around and, I mean, there's a lot

306
00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.820
of heavy lifting scientific double talk that Doctor Who can do.

307
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:13.500
I'm not sure it can just say if you don't get enough sleep, the

308
00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:16.559
sleep in your eye becomes a monster that walks around. don't think

309
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:16.860
it works.

310
00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:21.120
I have to say, as someone who loudly defended both in the forest

311
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:27.000
of the night and kill the moon last year, that I'm going to give

312
00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.340
the eye booger monsters a part.

313
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:36.840
But I do have to say that the reason that they even approach

314
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:41.580
working is that they're in this rather than in some other story

315
00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:45.000
where the camera was a little bit more leisurely.

316
00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:48.179
It is the fact that it's this sort of scrappy footage, all

317
00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:51.360
handheld and stuff, so you don't see them too much because they

318
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:52.740
are a bit crummy.

319
00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:58.379
And I think if they had been... standing still, you know, like in

320
00:15:58.379 --> 00:16:02.940
a well lit room. shot by a camera that wasn't swinging around all

321
00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:03.419
the time.

322
00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:06.899
I think we would have been much less inclined to forgive them

323
00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:10.080
because they look preposterous and you know how there's that thing

324
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.340
the Doctor Who monster thing.

325
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.399
I think most recently we saw it with the Fisher King, but the

326
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:19.019
classic moment of it is when those, the sea devils come out of the

327
00:16:19.019 --> 00:16:23.159
sea and they just look like actors with turtle hats on, you know

328
00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:27.539
like, like, like, you know, whenever you're looking at Doctor Who

329
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:30.480
Monster and you go, those holes at the top of its chest is where

330
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.399
the actor is looking out, you know.

331
00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:37.259
And so you hear, the monster's giant mouths that just look like

332
00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:38.940
they're sort of painted on these.

333
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.059
It's kind of...

334
00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:44.460
My favourite thing about the sea devils is when they come out of

335
00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:48.720
the water and they're like, you can see water sluishing out of the

336
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.440
gaps in the makeup and they're wearing that mesh outfit that looks

337
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.220
like Belinda Carlisle's dress on a go-go's tour, you know, like

338
00:16:56.220 --> 00:16:58.980
and it's just a weird, it's just a...

339
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:00.179
I't know how to feel looking at me.

340
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.840
They have to drill holes in the bottom of the masks to let the

341
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:04.200
water out.

342
00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:06.599
As the thing?

343
00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:10.019
The heads kept floating off.

344
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:10.859
Yeah, that's fast.

345
00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:12.480
Yeah.

346
00:17:12.539 --> 00:17:15.660
So they do suffer a little bit from that, I think.

347
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:20.940
But I like the sound design of them because they sound like sound

348
00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:23.640
that I'm very familiar with, which is that it sounds like the

349
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.420
noises that middle-aged men make when they're sort of sleeping or

350
00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:29.339
waking up or snoring and stuff.

351
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:33.359
And so I feel really seen by these particular boys.

352
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:39.779
It's a lot sort of... sort of stuff that growling.

353
00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:41.220
I think that is pretty great.

354
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.700
It was all recorded by a sound guy who just watched Stephen

355
00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:49.200
Moffatt pick up a pencil that he dropped. is groaning and

356
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:49.619
Scottish.

357
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:58.500
You know, this story has a really long and torturous evolution.

358
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:03.900
It was originally pitched as an idea, I believe, during the 2010

359
00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:06.779
season development.

360
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.240
Gatus came up with this idea.

361
00:18:09.299 --> 00:18:11.640
It was originally supposed to be a two-parter.

362
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.460
The 1st part would have been...

363
00:18:14.460 --> 00:18:15.299
Probably fortunate.

364
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.339
I acknowledged that it was fortunate.

365
00:18:17.339 --> 00:18:23.759
The 1st part would have been this kind of setup. without the found

366
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.720
footage that came in later to try and make it work a bit better.

367
00:18:27.779 --> 00:18:32.279
And then the 2nd part would have been seeing the aftermath or like

368
00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:35.640
another version of that would have been, if the other way around

369
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.500
which would have quite worked in this season.

370
00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:40.920
And he actually did propose that initially.

371
00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:44.819
Yeah, you'd come into it and then you'd go back and see how it

372
00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:48.299
happened when they were developing this season.

373
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:50.220
But because of the...

374
00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:50.759
Under the light.

375
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:51.240
Under the light.

376
00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.599
I've had it already before the flood episodes, Moffat said, no, you

377
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:55.079
can't do that.

378
00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:58.079
And that's how they arrived at the found footage.

379
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:01.920
I think it's probably preferable that we ended up where we did

380
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.019
although that idea, I think, could work as well.

381
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:08.339
But it's another example for me, a good example of how you make

382
00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:12.240
the 45 minute self-contained episode format of the show work.

383
00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:16.740
It has the feeling of a short story rather than the feeling of a

384
00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:19.200
feature film which is being crunched into 45 minutes.

385
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.819
Although, I have to say that at exactly the halfway point, At the

386
00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:28.440
end of part two, we get the gravity, you know, the gravity

387
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:29.039
shields.

388
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.240
Falling into Neptune, breaking down at exactly the point where the

389
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.440
sand miners motive thing stopped working.

390
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:38.279
Keeps going.

391
00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:43.259
And then later on we discover that Shearsmith's character only did

392
00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:47.400
that to provide an exciting bit in the middle of the episode to

393
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:48.660
keep his victims watching.

394
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.660
He literally admits that it's only there for that reason.

395
00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:59.400
And I think the impression that I get is that the signal in the

396
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.940
episode only works if you've seen it enough.

397
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.720
And so that's why it's only towards the end of the episode that we

398
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.700
start seeing things from our point of view.

399
00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:11.460
And it's never made super clear, but again, you know, found

400
00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:12.420
footage and whatever.

401
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:15.900
I mean, is he off in the other room editing this whole damn

402
00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:16.259
thing?

403
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:18.599
Like, anyway, doesn't matter.

404
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:24.119
Look, how do you critiqued the perhaps poor realisation of the

405
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:25.380
monsters?

406
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:30.180
I want to compliment the fantastic visualisation of Neptune and

407
00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:34.559
that sequence that you just mentioned of regardless of whether

408
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.039
it's just made up for the sake of exciting bit in the episode or

409
00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:39.539
not, which they can't acknowledge.

410
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.299
But that's very meta actually to do it that way, isn't it?

411
00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:45.240
But he has this wonderful sense of, and this is another reason why

412
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:46.079
I like this episode.

413
00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:49.380
It has this wonderful sense of we are so far away from the warmth

414
00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:50.099
of the sun.

415
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.400
The visualisation of Neptune that you get and you don't get a nice

416
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:54.359
clear shot of it.

417
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:56.700
You just get a bit of it out of porthole window and it's all

418
00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:58.440
shaking, so you kind of have a really good look at it.

419
00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:02.039
It just really makes me think of the fact that, you know, we are

420
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:03.960
in the outer reaches of the solar system.

421
00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:05.279
It is cold, it is dark.

422
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:08.460
There is no one anywhere to help.

423
00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:11.759
We are on our own and I think that that's incredibly effective.

424
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:15.359
I really liked that Neptune idea like a lot.

425
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:19.019
And when he says it like right up front that this station is in

426
00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:19.980
orbit of Neptune.

427
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:21.059
That's super interesting.

428
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:27.660
I did go on TARDIS Wakia and I learned that the great catastrophe

429
00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:33.359
is supposed to be the earth's imminent catastrophic collision with

430
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.680
the sun that Turlow mocks Tegan with at the beginning of

431
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:38.759
Frontios.

432
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:43.559
And so perhaps we're all on the outskirts of the solar system at

433
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.259
this point because remember, all of the people live on Triton

434
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:47.160
don't they?

435
00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:48.119
But is it the 38?

436
00:21:48.180 --> 00:21:49.859
century or something. isn't it?

437
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:50.579
Yeah, that's the problem.

438
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.680
It's not it's not late enough or whatever.

439
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.900
I think, I mean, it could be, it could be the solar flare thing

440
00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:58.920
because isn't Nerve a Beacon supposed to be the 20th century, late

441
00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:01.380
29th, early 30th century, yeah.

442
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:02.460
There's a 1000000 things it could be.

443
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:04.319
But like, whatever, and he's super...

444
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:04.740
But who cares?

445
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:06.000
I mean, you know, the age about it.

446
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:07.259
There are many futures.

447
00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:07.799
Yeah, yeah.

448
00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:14.220
It's interesting, James, what you said about, like, you know, the

449
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:18.059
how long Mark Gatis had been working on it because my initial

450
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:22.980
thought was this felt very 1st draughty because there's a bunch of

451
00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:25.799
things that happen in it that I feel like come out of nowhere

452
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:28.380
because he's painted himself into a corner.

453
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.440
So like the, the, the monster's not being able to see all of a

454
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:32.880
sudden and the doctor revealing that.

455
00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:35.759
That's something that wasn't really hinted at and now all of a

456
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:36.299
sudden it's there.

457
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:38.759
But I think it's actually hearing what you say, it actually makes

458
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.000
more sense now that probably he's worked on it a lot.

459
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.900
And he's put in everything that he likes about the idea.

460
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:48.599
And so there's just a lot going on in here.

461
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.960
Like normally there's like some late stage anti-capitalism

462
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.799
commentary going on in there, which is always great, some anti

463
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:56.099
industry stuff.

464
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:00.839
There's, you know, um, genetic modification stuff is going on in

465
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:01.079
there.

466
00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:02.640
There's so much happening.

467
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:07.319
There's a weird sort of military commentary that's going on.

468
00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:11.220
I'm sure we'll talk about, and there's all this stuff, and I think

469
00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:15.960
part of the problem is at the end, unless you really latch on to a

470
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:17.759
good idea and follow it through.

471
00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:22.619
There's just so much noise that it's hard to kind of take the one

472
00:23:22.619 --> 00:23:24.480
or 2 big themes, you know?

473
00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:28.319
Yes, I think that's probably true.

474
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:32.579
I think possibly also it's because he couldn't make his original

475
00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:37.200
concepts work for various reasons either because he'd been stewing

476
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.740
on it for a long time and it wasn't quite, you know, it wasn't

477
00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:41.579
quite coming together.

478
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:47.220
The original concept had these, it was much more about a satire of

479
00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:48.960
late stage capitalism.

480
00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:51.000
There were 2 factions.

481
00:23:51.059 --> 00:23:54.599
There were the Whiteys and the rips.

482
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:57.480
Does that nearly be in there?

483
00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:59.039
Oh, the Whiteys and the ribs, yeah.

484
00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:00.180
Yeah, the Whitey thing.

485
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:02.880
The wide awake thing does get in there, but the rip thing

486
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:03.240
doesn't.

487
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.099
No, but doesn't doesn't...

488
00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:10.559
Doesn't the leader say of Chopra that he's talking like a rib or

489
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:11.579
something like that?

490
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:13.500
like I didn't quite get that. something like that.

491
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.099
Yeah, so that might have remained because he's the only one who

492
00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:18.000
hasn't used the thing.

493
00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:23.279
It's not like data has to be quite like political in that way, is

494
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:23.519
it?

495
00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:27.599
Yeah, I think it's just, I mean, it's interesting that they, you

496
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.660
know, the sleep thing, the whole point of, you know, only needing

497
00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:34.920
half an hour sleep every month or whatever the hell it is, is, you

498
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:36.359
know, is a time is money thing.

499
00:24:36.420 --> 00:24:40.200
Whereas it's kind of like, I mean, in the real world now.

500
00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:43.500
I mean, what I wouldn't give to be able to only have to sleep half

501
00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:44.759
an hour, a night or something.

502
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:46.920
And I'm not saying how much more I'd get done in terms of my

503
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:47.279
business.

504
00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:49.559
I get, well, look at all this stuff I could watch. read these

505
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:49.920
books.

506
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:54.480
It's interesting that they don't focus on what would be how

507
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:55.680
leisure would change.

508
00:24:55.740 --> 00:24:58.980
I think you're supposed to have the impression that it's more like

509
00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:02.640
a series of, you know, 80s advertising executives snorting Coke so

510
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.039
that they can, you know, work all night to get their brief

511
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:05.640
together.

512
00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:06.839
Yeah.

513
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.319
But they do, they do hint at that because the commander is very

514
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.859
positive on it and doesn't feel exploited and has that line where

515
00:25:13.859 --> 00:25:17.700
she says she enjoyed, like this is great for us. you know, all

516
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:18.240
this sort of stuff.

517
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:22.619
So there is, I think, once again, I think there is like, it's not

518
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:26.220
like there's a dearth of ideas, which, you know, to be honest, like

519
00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:30.059
some of Gaitas's stuff has been very, in the past, and I like his

520
00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:31.200
his stuff overall.

521
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:32.640
I think Crimson Horror is really great.

522
00:25:32.700 --> 00:25:33.900
Not quite dead is great.

523
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:40.079
Um, But they tend to be less layered with huge ideas and more

524
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.599
about a single idea that he wants to explore fully.

525
00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:46.980
And this one feels much more like he's throwing everything that he

526
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:48.660
can at this story.

527
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.200
And I feel like it's, it's one of his most ambitious ones.

528
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:55.319
And even though I don't like it, I'd rather have a big swing and a

529
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:59.460
miss than people who don't swing at all and just kind of want to

530
00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:02.400
tell a standard Doctor Who story, whatever that is.

531
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:07.019
I mean, in one way, it positions itself, though, as a standard

532
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:08.279
Doctor Who story, doesn't it?

533
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:11.339
I mean, that's what Rasmusen says about it at the end.

534
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:13.619
He says, you know, I've put some monsters in.

535
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:14.880
I've put some thrills.

536
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:18.420
There's a big climax at the end and then we all go off.

537
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:23.039
And in a way, there is something a little bit generic about what

538
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:24.059
we end up with.

539
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:28.259
Not the found footage stuff, that is unique, and that is the thing

540
00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:32.160
that the show hasn't done before, but I did feel like the space

541
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:36.660
corridors were all very kind of the sort of thing that we've seen

542
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:37.980
before quite a lot.

543
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:42.720
And yeah, it's the kind of thing that you always end up comparing

544
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.740
unfavourably to the impossible planet, you know, that the

545
00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:50.519
Impossible Planet is the place where we nail the base under siege

546
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:55.259
by giving every character a really clear identity, making them all

547
00:26:55.259 --> 00:26:58.980
different from one another, characterising them really well in a

548
00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:02.279
way that maybe only Russell T. Davies can actually achieve.

549
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:08.880
Here, you've only got the 4 characters plus Erasmusen, and I think

550
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:13.920
they're all a lot less interesting than those characters from

551
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:15.240
Impossible Planet.

552
00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:18.539
Oh, look, I entirely agree with you that those characters are not

553
00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:19.740
particularly interesting.

554
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:23.039
But in some respects, James, it surprises me that that is the

555
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:29.819
backstory of the genesis of this episode because for me, if I was

556
00:27:29.819 --> 00:27:34.559
just guessing, I would have said they had an idea for what was

557
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:36.960
going to be a fairly generic episode.

558
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:41.579
And they did all the found footage stuff as a way of making it

559
00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:42.119
more interesting.

560
00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:44.519
That sounds like it something else.

561
00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:45.779
Yeah, doesn't it?

562
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:46.680
Does it?

563
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:48.839
Well, so the found that you're saying the found footage wasn't in

564
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:50.160
that original two-part idea.

565
00:27:50.220 --> 00:27:51.359
No, it comes back later.

566
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:52.500
Well, there you go.

567
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.500
Well, okay, well, then my instinct is correct.

568
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:56.160
I'm sorry.

569
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.500
I slightly misinterpreted what you meant.

570
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:02.460
But I think that that for me kind of demonstrates this is a

571
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:02.940
creativity.

572
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.880
Look, we're going to do a generic episode, but we're going to mask

573
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.660
the generic nature of it by presenting it in a completely

574
00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:10.140
different way.

575
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:12.720
And in a way that we've never done before and we're never going to

576
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:12.960
do it again.

577
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:17.700
Well, except when you think about 42, where 42 is, again

578
00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:23.220
horrifyingly generic in a particularly cheap new way, and it has

579
00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:26.579
the, it's in real time, and so we're going to flash to a countdown

580
00:28:26.579 --> 00:28:29.099
clock or, you know, all the time.

581
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:30.960
So it's very similar, I think.

582
00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:36.900
And I think likewise, the characters are not very well drawn, I

583
00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:37.140
think.

584
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.740
That that element of it gets forgotten in the in the process.

585
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:45.119
Yeah, I'm slightly worried about the woman who seems to be played

586
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:47.220
by a woman of Chinese background.

587
00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:50.819
She's supposed to be Japanese, but the joke is she's supposed to

588
00:28:50.819 --> 00:28:53.460
be Japanese, but she talks with a northern accent, which I think

589
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:57.000
is, that's a bit of a gay to-sy thing, and I think it's a bit

590
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:02.220
unfortunate, and I want to compare it to Belle, uh, in flux

591
00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:06.720
remember, who is a woman of like Asian background who spoke with a

592
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.880
really, really strong northern Irish accent.

593
00:29:09.059 --> 00:29:10.079
That's a British thing.

594
00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:11.279
Yeah, yeah.

595
00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:15.119
People who are immigrants into Britain tend to adopt.

596
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:17.279
No, everyone in a really strong way. everyone does.

597
00:29:17.339 --> 00:29:20.160
But in a way, it's almost like a thing.

598
00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:23.700
It's like that's all he's come up with is she calls everyone pet

599
00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:26.940
and she speaks with a Northern accent and that's a character.

600
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:31.859
And then you've got, then you've got Bethany Black's character who

601
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:36.059
I think Tit is on the edge of being a little bit offensive.

602
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:39.720
So this is the 1st time we cast a transgender actor.

603
00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:44.880
Bethany Black is very, very outspoken and knows her mind.

604
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.019
Do you know what I mean?

605
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.980
I don't think she's been tricked into doing this from all reports

606
00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:53.579
she loved being in Doctor Who and loved playing this part.

607
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:56.880
But I do think it is a little bit unfortunate, our 1st transgender

608
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:02.819
actress cast as a weird sexless drone character who gets called it

609
00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:05.880
by, you know, at least one of the other characters.

610
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:09.539
And then you've got Chopper who's pretty, which I don't object

611
00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:09.900
to.

612
00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:13.500
That's a perfectly valid characterisation. of a character.

613
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:15.299
He really is very...

614
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:16.859
Well cast from the script.

615
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:18.539
Yes, what's my character's motivation?

616
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:19.019
You're pretty.

617
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:20.819
Yeah, no, I love it.

618
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.559
More of that, please, Mr. Gay.

619
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.759
Yeah, and to go back to Bethany Black, too.

620
00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:30.779
I mean, you know, it's a super unfortunate thing because she's

621
00:30:30.779 --> 00:30:33.839
othered throughout the entire story, right?

622
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:37.980
So, you know, it's an opportunity to cast the transactor for the

623
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:41.880
1st time in the show, which is wonderful, but you're casting them

624
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:48.180
as an oddity, and she is a figure of debate and marginalisation.

625
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:52.440
And even the doc, it's kind of reminds me in a weird way of Wang

626
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:53.099
Chiang.

627
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:58.200
Even the doctor implies that she's not very smart and that, you

628
00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:01.380
know, this is, you know, and like, doesn't stand up for her or any

629
00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:02.700
of that, nobody does, right?

630
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:05.279
And I don't think that this is an intentional thing.

631
00:31:05.339 --> 00:31:10.259
I don't think that anybody wanted to create something that other

632
00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:16.019
the 1st transactor, but it does, and it feels very off-putting

633
00:31:16.019 --> 00:31:16.200
now.

634
00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:19.920
And it's, it's, I think the thing that does make the episode sort

635
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:25.680
of unpleasant. in an otherwise, I think, um, flawed but

636
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:26.700
interesting episode.

637
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:28.799
Like, I think it's way more interesting than 42.

638
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:29.640
Yeah.

639
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:34.019
I don't know if it's as enjoyable for me as 42 because I think you

640
00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:39.420
can just kind of surf along 42's plot moments and not be bothered

641
00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:39.720
by it.

642
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:41.220
Nothing about it.

643
00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:43.740
Yeah, but I like this one.

644
00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:46.500
Well, yeah, no.

645
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:46.740
Yeah.

646
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:50.579
You know, David Tennant with his teeth saying burn with me.

647
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.859
I don't need to ever see that again.

648
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:55.799
Yeah, some proper teeth acting happening there.

649
00:31:55.859 --> 00:32:00.180
And also, you know, I think that she's not given a moment to

650
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:04.200
really redefine anybody's point of view.

651
00:32:04.259 --> 00:32:05.940
I mean, Chopper does that on his own.

652
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.440
Do you know what I mean?

653
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:11.279
And she just sort of does the thing that she stated to do at the

654
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.099
beginning, which is to be sort of a physical presence.

655
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:18.480
And that's a, it's just a real, real missed, like a real missed

656
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:19.319
opportunity.

657
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:22.200
I think it has a reasonably nice ending.

658
00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:26.579
Like, I do like the fact that at the end, she saves chopra, tells

659
00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:29.039
him he's pretty and for the 1st time he doesn't flinch away from

660
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:29.220
it.

661
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:33.960
He smiles, you know, like, so there's some attempt to humanise her

662
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.079
but it's in the narrative, it's not any of the characters, and

663
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:37.559
you're right.

664
00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:38.880
It's not the doctor either.

665
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.500
Yeah, it's too little too late.

666
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:43.859
Yeah, well, that's, well, it's not, it's more the fact that the

667
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.859
doctor does not treat them well.

668
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:50.880
And I think it comes back to what we sort of discussed before

669
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:51.599
about these issues.

670
00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:56.519
I mean, this transactor has been cast in this role.

671
00:32:56.579 --> 00:33:00.299
The role wasn't created for a transactor per se, I presume.

672
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:03.299
It was just the fact that they decided that this person had the

673
00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:05.339
right look that they were after for whatever reason.

674
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.220
I mean, I know it's all sort of troubling and so on difficult, but

675
00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:09.000
he's so hard.

676
00:33:09.059 --> 00:33:11.099
Because the character itself is not supposed to be a trans

677
00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:11.579
character.

678
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:13.019
It's just a character.

679
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:16.859
But the character is supposed to be a genetically created grunt

680
00:33:16.859 --> 00:33:17.279
person.

681
00:33:17.339 --> 00:33:20.579
Like basically a dog's body. that, do I read that, right?

682
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:21.539
Or a soldier, right?

683
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:23.819
As soldier, like, but a grunt soldier?

684
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:25.079
basically cannon fodder, probably.

685
00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:28.920
A foot soldier to basically follow waters and not basically have a

686
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:30.119
revolution or anything like that.

687
00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:34.559
So we don't, obviously, we don't explore all the issues around

688
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.940
that. admittedly, because that's a whole other question to

689
00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:39.900
explore.

690
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:42.779
Maybe it's better not to even have such a such a creature.

691
00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:43.380
I don't know.

692
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.019
Maybe is it just better just to have a member of the crew who is

693
00:33:46.019 --> 00:33:47.819
thick, who is, you know, a bit slow or whatever?

694
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:48.299
I don't know.

695
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.900
I mean, I think it is just another one of these sort of huge

696
00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:55.920
bucket load of ideas that's been thrown at this, as Jeremy said.

697
00:33:55.980 --> 00:34:00.480
Look, we are about to get proper trans ramp in the show with

698
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:04.680
Yasmin Finney, who was in Heartstopper, which was my pick of the

699
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:05.339
week last week.

700
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:10.619
And I think Russell will be showing us how to do that properly.

701
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.900
And I think we'll see an improvement in just representation all

702
00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:16.380
around.

703
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:20.280
I think the people who are expecting the Chibnal era to be an

704
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:24.059
anomaly are in for a horrible surprise, I think, when Russell

705
00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:24.480
comes back.

706
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:25.380
Yeah.

707
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.780
So I think it will be done right.

708
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:30.360
And like I said, Bethany Blake's not stupid.

709
00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:34.019
She knew what she was doing and she liked the part and she was

710
00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:35.219
happy to play the role.

711
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:40.679
And so, you know, there's that at least, but, but I have to admit

712
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.559
that I am still a little bit uncomfortable with how it turned out

713
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.320
but I do like that scene at the end.

714
00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:49.559
And that is the closest that we get to any kind of

715
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:55.019
characterisation is that she thinks that chopra is pretty and and

716
00:34:55.019 --> 00:34:59.460
chopra is pretty dismissive of and contentious of it and that's

717
00:34:59.460 --> 00:34:59.820
all we have.

718
00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:04.739
You know, Peter said, Peter was here just now, and he said, it's

719
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:09.300
like giving David Warner's character that Ultravox fandom thing

720
00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:14.099
it's like just a sort of a bit of a limp shortcut for actually

721
00:35:14.099 --> 00:35:19.019
giving someone a character gives someone a notable characteristic

722
00:35:19.019 --> 00:35:20.400
which makes them memorable.

723
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:25.619
My friend calls that the cappuccino thing, which it comes from a

724
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:28.440
Will Smith movie called Enemy of the State, where he's obsessed

725
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.380
with getting good coffee, like a good coffee maker.

726
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.780
There's a scene in the beginning where he's just angry about they

727
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:35.519
don't have the right coffee maker in their house.

728
00:35:35.579 --> 00:35:37.800
It doesn't have anything to do with the plot.

729
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:40.920
It, just a way of saying, here's a human being with like some sort

730
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:43.440
of likes and dislike that you can maybe latch onto.

731
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:46.679
And he always points it out. oh, it's a cappuccino moment.

732
00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:49.139
They made that guy like a baseball card collector and it's just

733
00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:50.760
it's just a shorthand, right?

734
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:52.079
it works or doesn't.

735
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:52.679
Yeah.

736
00:35:52.739 --> 00:35:56.880
But when you compare it, like the one person that I think that

737
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:01.980
that Russell does, remember in partners in crime, remember Stacy

738
00:36:01.980 --> 00:36:07.500
Donna's interviewing Stacy and Stacy is a very definite person and

739
00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:09.300
like her death lands.

740
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.920
And, you know, it's the genius of making her having lost weight.

741
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:17.340
She's going to go and dump her boyfriend because she reckons she

742
00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:18.000
can do better now.

743
00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:20.159
It's so awesome and it's so fun.

744
00:36:20.219 --> 00:36:21.239
It's so well done.

745
00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:27.119
It's funny and warm and humane and real. in a way that this isn't

746
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:27.900
you know.

747
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.420
Yes, but it's a very different tone.

748
00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:32.039
It's a very different tone of an episode.

749
00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:35.579
And he does it twice in that episode too, because Russell also

750
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:39.239
creates that reporter character investigating the adipo stuff

751
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:43.380
who's like a almost like Russell saying, hey, look, this would be

752
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:46.500
typically the companion, but she's not going to be, but she's

753
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:49.679
still going to be interesting, and it's just sort of, I always

754
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.500
think like we have a really hard time because we've had 2 absolute

755
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:56.400
geniuses of television, Russell and Moffatt work on it, and they

756
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:59.940
can do stuff like that, especially character work with Davies.

757
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.619
He can do stuff in a 2nd that writers sweat over for months and

758
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:05.280
months and months.

759
00:37:05.340 --> 00:37:07.619
And so, it's sometimes not fair.

760
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:08.699
We've been spoiled, right?

761
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.219
You know, that that we have a writer that can do that.

762
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:12.360
So it's nice that he's coming back.

763
00:37:15.420 --> 00:37:18.420
I mean, I'm sure you will have that thing where there is an

764
00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:21.539
episode which is, say, really, really well loved or really, really

765
00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:25.320
loathed by the general populace and you have the opposite view.

766
00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:30.659
Now, sometimes you go, yeah, yeah, I get that it's a bit rubbish

767
00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:31.739
but I just have a sauce buffer.

768
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:32.940
I love it because of this at the other.

769
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.599
This is actually an example of one which I think, you know, is to

770
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:40.139
put it in sort of Todd's parlance is kind of a 7 out of 10, a

771
00:37:40.139 --> 00:37:42.119
reasonably solid episode.

772
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:44.760
But I was looking at some Dwim stuff.

773
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:48.480
And online, and this is like utterly despised.

774
00:37:48.539 --> 00:37:52.019
Like this is often in like the bottom 20 of all time.

775
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.800
I mean, it's it's level with the on the list that I was looking

776
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:56.159
at.

777
00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:58.980
It's level with Kill the Moon and in the forest of the night.

778
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:01.739
Things like time lash, things like, you know, those sorts of

779
00:38:01.739 --> 00:38:02.099
episodes.

780
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:02.699
Yeah, exactly.

781
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:06.780
And that absolutely, I'm actually quite bewildered by that.

782
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:09.900
I can understand that people think, 0 yeah, it's a bit mediocre

783
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:10.440
doesn't work here.

784
00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:11.400
It's a bit rubbish.

785
00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:14.639
But to have it that far down that really surprises me.

786
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:16.440
I feel the same way.

787
00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:18.900
I don't think it's that great, and I did think this time through

788
00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:22.320
that it was a bit less good than I thought it was previously

789
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:22.739
thought it was.

790
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.719
See, I had the Todd experience.

791
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:25.619
Oh, did you?

792
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:29.280
Well, I don't think I'd really watch it more than once.

793
00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:33.480
And I thought it deserved to be down there with time match.

794
00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:35.880
I quite like things I quite like timelash.

795
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.579
Yeah, but you acknowledge rubbish.

796
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.219
No, no, no, no.

797
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:44.099
And I thought, oh, it was enjoyable, but it was kind of pants.

798
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:45.480
Watching it now.

799
00:38:45.539 --> 00:38:47.820
I thought, this is this is quite good.

800
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:49.679
I quite enjoyed it.

801
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:53.940
But it is in many people's, like, bottom 2 or three.

802
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.039
It's like this and fear her, isn't it?

803
00:38:56.099 --> 00:38:57.179
Yeah, for her, kill the moon.

804
00:38:57.239 --> 00:38:59.159
I do think like, you know what's funny to me though?

805
00:38:59.219 --> 00:39:02.460
Like, I would have said that before I watched it.

806
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:05.519
When you guys asked me about which stories I'd like to do, I put a

807
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:08.219
bunch of like awesome stories and I'm like, heck, I'll even do

808
00:39:08.219 --> 00:39:08.760
sleep no more.

809
00:39:08.820 --> 00:39:11.460
I'm such a fan of your show that I was just like, I'll just sleep

810
00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:11.940
no more.

811
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:17.219
And then, and then I, I, I instantly, when you came back and said

812
00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:18.059
let's do sleep no more.

813
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:22.320
I'm like, come on, bottomly, screws me again. someone, too, you

814
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:23.820
know, and that was me.

815
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:24.480
That was you.

816
00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:25.199
That was awesome.

817
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:26.039
Thank you, James.

818
00:39:26.099 --> 00:39:28.139
So then I sat down to watch it.

819
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:29.579
And I was like, you know what?

820
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:31.619
Like, apologies to Simon.

821
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.820
But I don't think it works, but even though it doesn't work, I

822
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:37.739
still think that the stuff that he's trying.

823
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:41.880
Like, if I have to be forced to watch this or say Planet of the

824
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:46.079
Dead, which I think cruises along just fine, but is really about

825
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:48.000
nothing. you know, you know what I mean?

826
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:51.659
Like, it's really just a bust on a desert and it's so vanilla and

827
00:39:51.659 --> 00:39:52.079
safe.

828
00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:56.219
You know, it's just, I would actually kind of rather watch this.

829
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.360
To me, the only thing that, that really keeps me from knocking it

830
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.739
up to a 7 out of 10 is, is, uh, is the fact that the doctor kind

831
00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:08.099
of wobbles around and does some exposition and then leaves going

832
00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:11.940
I'm missing something and I just feel like that's a bit odd.

833
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.500
Can I ask the question?

834
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:16.739
Do you guys think that this is a completely unreliable narrative?

835
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:21.840
Do you think that the point of this episode is what we see is not

836
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:23.820
necessarily the adventure that was had?

837
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.659
Does it go that far as a story?

838
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:30.360
I don't think so. don't think so.

839
00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:32.940
Yeah, it's an interesting way of doing it, but no, they didn't.

840
00:40:32.940 --> 00:40:33.900
I think it would have been great if they did.

841
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:35.579
Yes, I agree. agree with that.

842
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.039
I think, you know, everything you're seeing is real.

843
00:40:38.099 --> 00:40:42.480
Footage, but it's been edited together to mislead you, but in that

844
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:43.980
sense, it's unreliable, but...

845
00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:47.460
Not to the sort of the verboids kind of extent.

846
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:48.900
Yeah, no, not to that extent, no.

847
00:40:49.260 --> 00:40:53.099
But I think that, like, I think in a way that's obviously an

848
00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:55.739
unanswerable question because all we have access to is the

849
00:40:55.739 --> 00:40:56.460
broadcast.

850
00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:02.219
I also think that it's clear that the found footage thing is a

851
00:41:02.219 --> 00:41:05.340
late addition because it doesn't go anywhere.

852
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:09.179
Like, the fact now that Clara is transmitting.

853
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:13.139
Does that mean that she's been affected by this?

854
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:14.940
You know, she has...

855
00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:16.079
Well, yes, because she's made the machine.

856
00:41:16.139 --> 00:41:16.619
Yeah.

857
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:19.619
She's been in the machine, but does that mean that she's going to

858
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:23.400
die, you know, or that she's going to start spouting eye booger

859
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:24.179
men or something?

860
00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:26.400
Like, what even is the outcome?

861
00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:26.880
you know?

862
00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:30.840
So that just seems to be just a thin layer on top of it, like a

863
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:31.860
presentational layer.

864
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.860
The episode doesn't seem to be about the fact that it's found

865
00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:36.059
footage.

866
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:40.139
And so I think that there's just not enough there for that.

867
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:41.699
I don't think it's unreliable.

868
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.579
I think it is just weird directing it in a slightly different

869
00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:44.820
way.

870
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.699
They could have not sold that.

871
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:50.639
You know, instead of just not dealing with it at all.

872
00:41:50.699 --> 00:41:51.780
They could have not solved that.

873
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:57.480
Had her dying from the Eyebooger transformation process in Face of

874
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:01.980
Raven and so she's already on borrowed time and chooses to die.

875
00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:03.719
Yeah, no, that would be terrible.

876
00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:04.800
No, it would have been terrible.

877
00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:11.340
The pained look on Simon's face every time someone says hi, booger

878
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:13.739
is really just...

879
00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:16.440
Yes, thank you for that piece of North American culture, but I

880
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:18.780
think we'll revert this as an Australian-based podcast, so we're

881
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:19.619
going to call it sleep, all right?

882
00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:20.699
Well okay.

883
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.719
I'm just saying if this had been made in North American, in the

884
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:28.019
70s, Robert Holmes would have called it a death to the eye boogers

885
00:42:28.019 --> 00:42:31.079
or attack of the eye. would have been great.

886
00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:32.400
Invasion of the eye.

887
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:34.980
Invasion of the eye. iBook is in space.

888
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:37.320
Oh, that beat.

889
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:38.820
Space Space Space Space.

890
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:42.059
Oh, that is great.

891
00:42:42.179 --> 00:42:43.139
Where is they?

892
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:44.400
They should have said Space Museum.

893
00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:47.760
Space restaurants, space, champagne, and space.

894
00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:49.320
Oh, I don't know hats.

895
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:52.079
Yes, just the fact that it falls so flat.

896
00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:53.940
The 3rd choice is so bad.

897
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:55.380
It's wonderful.

898
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:56.400
It's just awesome.

899
00:42:56.460 --> 00:43:00.119
And then space pirates get sped immediately and she wins.

900
00:43:00.179 --> 00:43:01.199
It's so good.

901
00:43:01.260 --> 00:43:04.559
And from the podcast that brought you space reasons.

902
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:08.460
We're doing a show where there's space medicine, space surgeons

903
00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:09.539
space crises.

904
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:13.920
Space, yeah, space crisis, in, in, like, 7 years.

905
00:43:13.980 --> 00:43:18.780
Yeah, initially I wanted every episode of Maximum Power to space

906
00:43:18.780 --> 00:43:20.579
something. excellent.

907
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:20.820
Okay.

908
00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:25.019
Let's talk about the end, though.

909
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.019
So the doctor says that he doesn't get something and he goes off

910
00:43:28.019 --> 00:43:31.920
and then the plan is to go to Triton and destroy all of the

911
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.039
Morpheus pods.

912
00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:39.300
So the story doesn't resolve because he never really finds out

913
00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:40.619
what's going on.

914
00:43:41.099 --> 00:43:42.840
Is that right?

915
00:43:42.900 --> 00:43:43.980
Yeah, that's effective.

916
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:45.480
Why does he think he doesn't know what's going on?

917
00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:47.340
I think he's missed the signal.

918
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:48.659
That's what he's missed.

919
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:54.300
Yeah, he's missed the explanation by Rasmussen, which is done to

920
00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:57.840
camera, which basically says, well, actually, no, you know, I

921
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:58.739
tricked you into this.

922
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:03.179
The signal is the thing that's converting the sleep in your eye.

923
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:05.219
Like, you know, I've been transmitting the signal.

924
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:10.139
The doctor doesn't get that bit thinks that the thing and the

925
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:10.920
pod...

926
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.420
Yeah, is...

927
00:44:12.420 --> 00:44:13.679
Is what's going to transmit...

928
00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:15.960
And so he thinks he's solved that, but actually he's lost.

929
00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:18.659
All those people on Driton are going to die.

930
00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:22.019
No, but not only that, everyone watching this episode of Doctor

931
00:44:22.019 --> 00:44:22.920
Who is going to die.

932
00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:23.400
Yeah.

933
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:24.900
And that's obviously the whole human race.

934
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:29.099
So this is one of the rare moments and it happens just from time

935
00:44:29.099 --> 00:44:32.400
to time in Doctor Who, where the audience is directly threatened

936
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.480
by Watts on screen.

937
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:37.199
And so because we've watched this episode despite being told not

938
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:37.559
to.

939
00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:41.039
That means that all of us are inevitably going to die from

940
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:41.699
watching this.

941
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:45.239
And I think of, do you remember the moment in the pirate planet

942
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:49.260
where the pirate captain is going to materialise around earth?

943
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:51.420
And it's kind of like, but that's where I am.

944
00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:52.980
You know, like when I was a kid.

945
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:55.139
You know?

946
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.880
And also in Dalek's master plan where in real time, the dialects

947
00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:02.699
are heading towards Earth and they're going to hit Earth, like on

948
00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:05.460
New Year's Day or whatever, when the next episode's broadcast.

949
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:10.199
And so just every so often, the audience gets threatened by what's

950
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:11.940
happening on Doctor Who and here it is.

951
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.840
You watch this episode and this episode is the episode that kills

952
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.019
you.

953
00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:20.880
It's a pretty bold move starting an episode of Doctor Who saying

954
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:21.539
don't watch this.

955
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:22.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

956
00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:25.500
Yeah, yeah.

957
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.340
And I think that's really good because, like, I like those sort of

958
00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:32.400
weird corner cases and stuff, which we can't possibly follow up

959
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:36.480
but what has actually happened here is the doctor has failed to

960
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.039
stop the broadcast.

961
00:45:38.099 --> 00:45:42.420
And so everyone in the 38th century, all of humankind is, according

962
00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:46.079
to Rasmussen's plan, all going to die and the doctor didn't stop

963
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:46.380
it.

964
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:49.619
And not only that, we're all going to die as well because we've

965
00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:50.159
watched the episode.

966
00:45:50.219 --> 00:45:52.739
It'll be resolved at some time in the future.

967
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:56.039
This is like, you know, a different way around you'd have done the

968
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.440
2nd episode where because of something the doctor failed to do

969
00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:02.280
years ago, the human race is under threat, blah, blah, blah, blah

970
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:02.579
blah.

971
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:05.460
So I don't mind that unquestioned thing, but also for some reason

972
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:07.440
I'm not thinking that, you know, everyone's going to dissolve into

973
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.199
sleep dust monsters over the course of the next week.

974
00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:13.739
For me, I sort of read it as a more this insidious thing, like the

975
00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:16.440
sleep dust monsters are living inside you now.

976
00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:20.579
Like, it's, it's like, it's like aliens, uh, in the, the embryo

977
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:22.860
has been planted in all these people and through the Morpheus

978
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:26.699
machines and, and in some people, it will grow and manifest itself

979
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:30.719
but in other people, it won't, it'll lay dormant for dozens, 100s

980
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:31.800
1000s of years, whatever it is.

981
00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:34.679
That was kind of my chosen reading of it.

982
00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:35.340
I don't know.

983
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:40.139
Gatus did sort of deliberately leave this on that kind of

984
00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:44.340
unresolved cliffhanger because he did think maybe I'll come back

985
00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:49.440
to this and we could do a sequel story where we deal with the

986
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:50.460
aftermath of that.

987
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:52.079
But I actually don't want there to be.

988
00:46:52.139 --> 00:46:53.579
I don't want there to be a resolution.

989
00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:56.699
I think that's the whole point is that I mean, so thank goodness

990
00:46:56.699 --> 00:46:58.079
that we didn't.

991
00:46:58.139 --> 00:47:00.599
I compared it when I to Brian when I we were watching it

992
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:01.019
yesterday.

993
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:03.659
I compared it to Musk, End of Master Man, Draguara, where, you

994
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:06.960
know, the doctor says, the doctor says, oh, the Mandragara helix

995
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.619
will be back in lineman in 500 years, which and Sarah goes, but

996
00:47:10.619 --> 00:47:12.000
that's the end of the 20th century.

997
00:47:12.059 --> 00:47:15.179
And he says, yes, that was an interesting century.

998
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:18.480
And the point is, we never see.

999
00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:22.500
It's not like in season 15, there is then a 2nd Master of Mandrago

1000
00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:24.119
story set in the late 20th century.

1001
00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:25.139
You don't need that.

1002
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:28.260
It's just that kind of underlying threat that you've got.

1003
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:30.300
Yeah, and I like story.

1004
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:33.539
I mean, like, it does that in the impossible planet, Satan Pit, too

1005
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:36.000
where they at the end where she says, what was it?

1006
00:47:36.059 --> 00:47:38.340
And he goes, I think we beat it and that's good enough for me

1007
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:38.639
right?

1008
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:42.239
And so I do like leaving that unresolved for sure.

1009
00:47:42.300 --> 00:47:45.480
And it is bold to start off an episode saying, don't watch this.

1010
00:47:45.539 --> 00:47:48.000
The only other person who's ever done that is Eric Sayword, I

1011
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.880
think, who's implied don't watch this with every story he wrote.

1012
00:47:54.539 --> 00:47:57.780
The thing that we haven't mentioned is one of the benefits of it

1013
00:47:57.780 --> 00:48:00.480
being this found footage thing where so often people are looking

1014
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.400
down the camera, isn't it great when Capaldi looks into the camera

1015
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:09.059
there's nothing quite like those eyes looking straight at you and

1016
00:48:09.059 --> 00:48:09.420
talking.

1017
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:11.579
I think that's just a great feature of the episode.

1018
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:12.900
It's wonderful, isn't it?

1019
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:13.679
Absolutely wonderful.

1020
00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:17.099
We didn't mention Peep show, which is a show that entirely does

1021
00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.659
this where the camera is always a subjective view of one of the

1022
00:48:21.659 --> 00:48:22.139
characters.

1023
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:26.639
But yes, having Capaldi deliver the lines directly to camera is

1024
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:29.940
just tremendous because he's just so amazingly good.

1025
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.559
Yes, so good.

1026
00:48:31.619 --> 00:48:36.119
And it's so, um, it's so funny too, because the dialogue's very

1027
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:40.739
utilitarian and very functional with everyone, even Rasmussen's

1028
00:48:40.739 --> 00:48:42.960
narration, which I think is a little on the nose from time to time

1029
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:46.260
but I think it's, he's, it's supposed to be, um, because he's

1030
00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:46.980
painting a picture.

1031
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:53.039
But the 2nd that Capaldi and Coleman are on screen. the level of

1032
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:58.320
banter that just kind of comes up and and there's just a 1000000

1033
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:02.340
funny little jokes and a 1000000 moments that are just, it makes

1034
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:03.719
me happy to see them working together.

1035
00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:06.480
I just, when they're really sparking and they're not being too

1036
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:09.599
antagonistic, but they're working together, it's a great

1037
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:14.579
combination, those 2, because they just sparkle and he is great at

1038
00:49:14.579 --> 00:49:19.679
both intimidating, but also playing with the other supporting

1039
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:21.059
characters of the scene.

1040
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:25.619
So he never, like Tom, never dominates to the point where people

1041
00:49:25.619 --> 00:49:26.699
don't look good.

1042
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:32.280
He always makes them look better because of how much he's, you

1043
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:33.360
know, sparking off of them.

1044
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:36.360
So anyways, I just, I couldn't talk enough about Capaldi.

1045
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:37.139
This might be my only chance.

1046
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:38.519
So this is what I'm going to say.

1047
00:49:38.579 --> 00:49:40.980
I think he's he's superb.

1048
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:45.360
My, I think has always been that my biggest regret is that the

1049
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:48.599
episodes he's given or at least some of the characterisation of

1050
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:50.519
his doctor, I just, I just think are wasted.

1051
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:53.820
I think as an actor, as a doctor, I think he's absolutely perfect

1052
00:49:53.820 --> 00:49:54.480
casting.

1053
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:55.800
I love him to bits.

1054
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:59.219
But Matt Smith, for me, of the modern era is by far and away my

1055
00:49:59.219 --> 00:50:00.599
favourite by light ears.

1056
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:05.219
Yeah, I love him a lot too. and I think I spent the whole Matt

1057
00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:08.579
Smith era of FDE saying that he was my favourite doctor.

1058
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:10.619
He is pretty incredible.

1059
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:11.099
Yeah.

1060
00:50:11.099 --> 00:50:16.260
I think the thing with Capaldi is that since he was cast, since

1061
00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:19.320
he's been in it, I said, you know, he is probably one of the best

1062
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.019
actors to ever play the role.

1063
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:27.719
But until I was rewatching the era for the podcast.

1064
00:50:27.780 --> 00:50:31.739
I didn't kind of cement the, actually, no, here's my favourite

1065
00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:34.260
doctor in this in this role.

1066
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:37.500
Like he is, he just gets it.

1067
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:37.739
Yeah.

1068
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.260
I mean, Matt Smith gets it in a different way, and I think that's

1069
00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:40.980
just incredible.

1070
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:44.159
Just the character contains multitudes, you know?

1071
00:50:44.219 --> 00:50:47.219
So, I mean, that's that's it's an actor proof part, right?

1072
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:49.320
Yeah, I think so too.

1073
00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:52.019
As long as you bring something to it.

1074
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.260
Um, it's just impossible to fail.

1075
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:56.280
It really is.

1076
00:50:56.340 --> 00:50:59.940
I can't think of any actor and there have been actors of, uh

1077
00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:02.760
greater strength and lesser strength that have taken on the part

1078
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:07.500
but honestly, it's, it's impossible to see, uh, someone who

1079
00:51:07.500 --> 00:51:08.400
wouldn't get this part.

1080
00:51:08.460 --> 00:51:10.079
It's like getting Sherlock Holmes or something.

1081
00:51:10.139 --> 00:51:11.760
You know, you just are Hamlet.

1082
00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:13.199
You just like, I can grab hold of this.

1083
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:18.000
There's too much to to hold on to to miss on it, you know?

1084
00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:47.099
Well, they listener, that's all the time we have for this week.

1085
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:50.760
We'll be back next week to see how Rigsy has been getting on, In

1086
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:51.659
Face the Raven.

1087
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:55.739
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1088
00:51:55.739 --> 00:51:59.219
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1089
00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:02.400
com, where you'll find all of our social media links, as well as

1090
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:06.360
links to our other podcasts, including startling Barbara Bain

1091
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:09.480
maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

1092
00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:13.500
Until next time, may the gods look favourably upon you.

1093
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:15.300
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1094
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:16.260
Good night.

1095
00:52:16.380 --> 00:52:17.159
Bye bye.

1096
00:52:17.219 --> 00:52:18.059
Good night.

1097
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:26.579
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Simon

1098
00:52:26.579 --> 00:52:29.760
Moore, Jeremy Radick, and James Selwood, theme arrangement by

1099
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:30.719
Cameron Lamb.

1100
00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:34.619
This episode, the cappuccino thing, was recorded on the 17th of

1101
00:52:34.619 --> 00:52:37.559
September 2023, and released on the 12th of November.

1102
00:52:40.619 --> 00:52:44.219
Sleep no more isn't a particularly popular episode, but imagine if

1103
00:52:44.219 --> 00:52:45.780
Gators are gone with his original idea.

1104
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:50.099
A space station orbiting Neptune, where an evil corporation finds

1105
00:52:50.099 --> 00:52:53.579
an alarming new way to monetise its employees' blue brakes.

1106
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:10.679
So let's do, let's do, I'm Nathan, I'm James.

1107
00:53:10.739 --> 00:53:12.480
I'm Simon, I'm Jeremy.

1108
00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:14.159
And I'm Jeremy.

1109
00:53:14.219 --> 00:53:15.179
And I'm Jeremy.

1110
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:15.599
That good.

1111
00:53:15.659 --> 00:53:17.519
People always forget the anime.

1112
00:53:17.579 --> 00:53:19.559
At the end.

1113
00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:24.840
Yeah, I even got Eric Stadnick to say at Som Erik in the...

1114
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:25.559
Oh, I'm sure...

1115
00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.739
Pfizer Pompeii episode where we delivered it in Latin at the

1116
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:29.039
beginning.

1117
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:32.039
I'm sure he needed no prompting whatsoever to do.

1118
00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:36.840
It's so funny.

1119
00:53:36.900 --> 00:53:38.099
I love Eric.

1120
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:38.579
I do too.

1121
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:39.480
So great.

1122
00:53:39.539 --> 00:53:40.920
We really need to get him back on.

1123
00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:42.840
He and I share a birthday.

1124
00:53:42.900 --> 00:53:46.800
I'm exactly 10 years older than him and we also share our birthday

1125
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:53.400
with Jenna Coleman and Russell T. Davis and Rose Tyler canonically

1126
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.719
according to one of those early annuals that came out.

1127
00:53:57.840 --> 00:53:59.579
You know, like.

1128
00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:00.719
That sounds like a hell of a podcast.

1129
00:54:00.780 --> 00:54:02.340
And Jenna Coleman.

1130
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:03.360
Yeah, imagine that.

1131
00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:04.199
Wow.

1132
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:09.300
Russell on saying how marvellous everything is in general and

1133
00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:10.199
saying how dreadful it was.

1134
00:54:10.260 --> 00:54:10.800
Yes.

1135
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:16.619
Okay, all right.

1136
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:20.219
So what we'll do, we'll do the intro and then we'll do the outro

1137
00:54:20.219 --> 00:54:22.860
and then we can just talk.

1138
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:26.699
The rule is, I don't know if you've noticed the rule, but the rule

1139
00:54:26.699 --> 00:54:30.119
is that the guest on their 1st appearance on the show gets the

1140
00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:30.480
title.

1141
00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:33.239
So, you know, no pressure.

1142
00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:35.219
Remember to say something funny.

1143
00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:40.679
It's not that we had last year.

1144
00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:43.679
It was Roman of Sherwood, which was fala centric energy.

1145
00:54:43.739 --> 00:54:45.960
I know, that's a tough one to beat.

1146
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:48.059
That was pretty good.

1147
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:52.739
I think I had sparking pubic merkins in Zygon invasion.

1148
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:57.420
So I think that that probably has to be that's probably that one

1149
00:54:57.420 --> 00:55:00.000
chosen, but I haven't chosen any time.

1150
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:06.599
It's sad because my the only problem is that pubic merkin seems to

1151
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:07.860
me like...

1152
00:55:07.860 --> 00:55:08.639
It's a tortology.

1153
00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:11.519
Yeah, yeah, that's right. yeah hat on a hat.

1154
00:55:11.579 --> 00:55:13.800
You want the word pubic in there.

1155
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:16.679
Okay.

1156
00:55:16.739 --> 00:55:18.000
All right.

1157
00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:20.699
It's got our rudest time. pubic weaves.

1158
00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:23.820
Rudest title is still kind of lingers.

1159
00:55:24.659 --> 00:55:27.179
Which I didn't know was rude.

1160
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:28.679
I didn't even spot it.

1161
00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:33.000
They were all going, how come we got away with that?

1162
00:55:33.059 --> 00:55:34.980
Nathan let that through anyway.

1163
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:36.480
Like, there's a song.

1164
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:37.380
Yeah, there is a song.

1165
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:41.340
Isn't it from, it's from like, not the 9 o'clock news or

1166
00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:41.639
something.

1167
00:55:41.699 --> 00:55:41.940
Yeah.

1168
00:55:41.940 --> 00:55:43.320
All right.

1169
00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:44.099
Let's do this thing.

1170
00:55:47.219 --> 00:55:50.340
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety

1171
00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:53.460
the only Doctor Who podcast that directly affects the sleep

1172
00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:54.719
centres of your brain.

1173
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:56.699
I'm Nathan.

1174
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:57.539
I'm James.

1175
00:55:57.599 --> 00:55:58.440
I'm Simon.

1176
00:55:58.500 --> 00:55:59.699
I'm Jeremy.

1177
00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:07.440
What happened to the rest of the intro?

1178
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:14.760
Oh, his his his notes haven't updated.

1179
00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:15.239
Oh, no.

1180
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:19.260
While you're while you're looking them up.

1181
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:25.860
My nephew's just finished 2020th in the Sydney Marathon with a

1182
00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:27.420
time of 3 hours and 39 minutes.

1183
00:56:27.539 --> 00:56:30.179
That's something.

1184
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:31.320
Out of how many people?

1185
00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:32.880
I don't know.

1186
00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:40.260
But he's 17, 2020 overall, 1775th out of 12,167 men.

1187
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:42.719
That's pretty good.

1188
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:43.260
That's pretty good.

1189
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:44.880
That's top 10%.

1190
00:56:44.940 --> 00:56:46.679
No, top 15%, yeah.

1191
00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:48.000
Yeah, for him.

1192
00:56:49.019 --> 00:56:51.119
All right, I can't find that.

1193
00:56:51.179 --> 00:56:53.579
I'll have to record it later off something.

1194
00:56:53.639 --> 00:56:55.619
I'll just leave this set up and we'll be fine.

1195
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:57.659
Like, would it be on your computer?

1196
00:56:57.719 --> 00:56:58.380
Could you just ask?

1197
00:56:58.440 --> 00:56:59.880
No, I wrote it.

1198
00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:00.599
I don't know.

1199
00:57:00.659 --> 00:57:01.619
Yeah, maybe it is.

1200
00:57:01.739 --> 00:57:03.420
Let me just check.

1201
00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:05.280
This happened last time as well, didn't it?

1202
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:06.840
Like the recording, it didn't tell.

1203
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:07.440
Yes, here it is.

1204
00:57:07.860 --> 00:57:08.400
Here it is.

1205
00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:09.000
Okay, here it goes.

1206
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:14.699
Well, the Blair Witch project was about 15 years ago at this point

1207
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:19.199
so it must be just about time for Doctor Who to use it as a source

1208
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:19.920
of inspiration.

1209
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.960
Have you got something in your eye?

1210
00:57:22.019 --> 00:57:25.199
Let's find out as we discuss sleep no more.

1211
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:27.960
All right.

1212
00:57:28.739 --> 00:57:31.019
And now we'll do the outro.

1213
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:32.519
And again, good night in the same order.

1214
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:34.199
Okay.

1215
00:57:34.260 --> 00:57:37.199
Well, dear listener, that's all the time we have for this.