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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:49:43

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast, all of whose hosts just discovered that somehow they have the number 12 tattooed somewhere on their body.

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I think it looks cool.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Johnny.

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Well, over the past 3 years.

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We've seen Clara being kind, brittle, foolhardy, dishonest, funny, and incandescently furious, but can she also be brave?

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Let's find out as she discovers that she must, like all of us, I guess, base the raven.

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So we start, once again, at the very end of a Doctor Who adventure, just like we did, I think, in The Girl Who Died, and what's happening here?

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I guess what's happening here is the recurring idea that Clara is somehow getting too big for her boots, you know, that she's being more reckless.

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Uh, it's always a shame when the when the adventure they've just come from sounds really exciting.

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You think, man, I want to watch that adventure.

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Why, why didn't we film that today?

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But peppered through this season has been this idea that Clara is getting more and more daring and taking fewer and fewer precautions.

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And so you can't have that scene.

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That scene actually happens twice in Face the Raven, doesn't it?

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Because there's the beginning scene where the doctor's giving her side eye because she's been taking too many risks.

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And then it happens later on when she's headfirst out of the TARDIS looking at it.

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So we are really getting that idea reinforced again and again and again.

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Yeah, in fact, there's some dialogue between Rigsy and the doctor where Rigsy comments on how foolhardy she is and the doctor says it's something like a known issue or something.

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It's a thing that happens.

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And Murray also gives her the doctor's music when that happens.

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So as she's hanging out of the TARDIS.

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A little bit like Matt Smith in Day of the Doctor, she does get the Capoldi Doctor's theme music there as well.

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So the whole show is kind of saying that. and sort of leading up to it, I think.

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I mean, the adventure sounds fun, doesn't it?

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There's a sentient plan that the doctor has to marry, you know, a whole heap of stuff like that.

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And the other thing is that Clara is delighting in how clever she is.

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So she's saying, you know, I saved your life.

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If you hadn't been for me, you would have been done like this.

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And I think this feeds into this sort of uncomfortable relationship, I think that fandom has with Clara, that she's trying to be the doctor, and there's something weirdly patriarchal about this too, that we're not really comfortable with her stretching her wings a bit and trying to behave in the way that the doctor is behaving.

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And then on top of that, she's really rather proud of the whole thing.

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She seems to get not just a sort of adrenaline buzz from it, but a kind of self-esteem boost from it as well too.

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And I think there's something in that, which has rubbed people up the wrong way throughout the thing.

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And I'm not sure how I feel about that.

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I think it's a little bit unfair to have the female character in the show be the one who is trying things that the doctor does.

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And for us to have a slightly disapproving lens over that.

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I mean, there are some other things that she does that are doctor-ish here too.

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She's the one who does the exposition about what a trap street is, and I think that seems very striking that does seem to be the sort of speech that the doctor should be giving.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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And I love how the doctor's reaction to that is basically like, well, you know, I don't think it's going to be a cartographer's trick that is going to solve this and then immediately says, but we look for one in real life.

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Yeah.

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And so he's kind of doing the 12th doctor-ish thing and saying, no, that's a silly idea before turning around. like, no, actually it's great.

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Well done.

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Well, but he also has the line, you know, it's a missing street and you humans immediately decide that it's a copyright violation.

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There's no right for the end.

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On the topic of Clara developing this reckless streak.

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Yeah, I do think there was this pervasive sense of, oh no, she shouldn't do that because that's what the doctor does.

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Whereas at the time, what I remember thinking is it felt like we were going in a direction of she's doing this because she's lost Danny and the show is presenting.

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This is an unhealthy way to cope with your grief to seek out risk.

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And it is a recognised thing that some people do.

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And I remember the only problem I had with it is she is punished by the narrative for being like the doctor.

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And it's a conscious decision.

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It was one that Stephen Moffatt developed, but also Sarah Dollar, the writer of this episode, was behind.

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But I still feel uncomfortable with it, but I feel uncomfortable with it in the same way I feel uncomfortable about Donna's mind wipe in that, oh, this is highly effective drama in that it's making me feel things, but I don't like it.

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Yeah, I do think that that's the problem.

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And she is like the doctor, you know, right from, I mean, she appears in the opening credits of Death in Heaven, doesn't she?

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It's her face rather than Capaldi's face.

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And the relationship's been presented as an addiction and it creates problems in Danny and Clara's relationship, it causes her to sneak around and be dishonest and all sorts of things like that.

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I think we've said before that that central relationship in the show, the one that we all kind of aspire to have.

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I don't know about you, but I was always...

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Of course, 100%. yeah.

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Specifically Bonnie Langford for me.

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Well, I was mostly Liz Slade.

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Yes, I was mostly Liz Slade, yes.

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Like Russell T. Davis.

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I think, you know, Clara starts out a little bit like Sarah Jane.

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But actually, she ends up more like Mel, I would say, because she has a sort of relationship with the doctor, where she tells him what to do quite a lot of the time.

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And so she's his teacher.

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She's his coach, and it gets to the point in the girl who died, where she's not even that concerned about the main peril of the episode, because she just knows the doctor is going to get there eventually.

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And she knows it all she has to do is sit there and just sort of coach him along till he gets to that and then everything is going to be all right.

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Um, that has a sort of mel like feel.

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I think.

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And she kind of tries to play that trick again in Face the Raven, in that she takes this enormous risk mid-episode.

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So confident is she, that everything is going to work out all right because the doctor is by her side and that's the bit.

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That's the bit that backfires.

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Yeah.

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I'm not sure about the fact that the story, the plot punishes her for being like the doctor, because what the story is punishing her for is being complacent, and that's what you get in, the girl who died and so on. and what you see at the beginning of this episode as well. is this kind of relaxed complacency that it's all right. all going to be all right.

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The doctor's going to solve everything and we're all going to get away with, so it doesn't really matter what I do.

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So it's like the doctor looks like he's being reckless, but actually he always knows what he's doing underneath or at least he takes calculated risks.

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Whereas Clara is starting to take reckless risks.

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And I think that's what she's being punished for.

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But I think because it's the Moffat era.

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It is kind of presented as well as Clara knowing the rules of a Doctor Who story.

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And so she and she actually recognises the individual beats in the girl who died.

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You know, she spots the moment where the doctor has his final proper good plan and she knows that he hasn't come up with that yet and so on.

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And so it's similar here, and the show actually does it here because then you get Capaldi at the end, and we'll talk about this later, saying, have you ever heard of anyone who managed to stop me?

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And so the doctor himself knows that he always wins in a Doctor Who episode and he turns that into a thread at the end of the episode.

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And we have had that before.

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I think Matt Smith's doctor does that sort of grandstanding as well.

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And Tennant, as far back as silence in the library, is also kind of saying, there have been a lot of Doctor Who stories to the Vashta Narada, and I've won all of them. back off.

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Yeah.

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You even have a copy of the wheel in space in this library.

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It's that well funded.

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I think it's hard to talk about Clara being punished for her role in this story, in the conclusion, without referencing Hell Bent, because eventually, eventually she is going to become a doctor-like figure.

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She is going to travel the universe with an irregular heartbeat and a companion and they're going to go and have adventures the long way around.

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So, in a way, this is almost a bit of a feint, in fact, because we're the full arc of this story, she is going to end up in a very different place in a few episodes time.

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And it's not impossible to have a doctor-like character as a companion. like River has shown us that.

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And Romana has shown us that back in the day.

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It's something about Clara being human.

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And I think, Simon, I think you've put your finger on it where you say it's this, she's, she's doing one particular thing, a particular style of recklessness, which is the problem, which the other characters that we've seen behave in a doctor-like manner, perhaps don't do to such an extent.

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I just want to also comment, though, about the what it actually does to what it feels like to watch these episodes.

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And that's, I think, where I start to not like where it goes.

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I don't mind per se, this is a sort of a plot point, but I actually start to find the whole thing quite tiresome.

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And I think it does take away something about how an episode should be.

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Yes, a companion should always have faith that the doctor can solve it, but there's something about what Clara's response is throughout this season that makes me not find the episodes entertaining, not as entertaining as, I don't feel there's as much a sense of risk anymore because everyone's kind of bit too blasé about, oh, we'll just get out of this, and so it doesn't really matter.

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So I think it actually does actually affect my enjoyment of the episodes, if that makes sense.

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I'm not really expressing that right.

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No, I think it's, and I could be wrong, please correct me if I'm being presumptuous, but that whole kind of meta narrative thing where Clara is aware on some level that she's in the Doctor Who TV series.

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And so we're always going to win.

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And we know that.

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I mean, there is supposed to be a sense of risk as far as the characters are concerned.

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The characters need to think that there's a sense of risk.

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Yeah, but we obviously are in the comfortable position of knowing that the doctor will win and that's part of the pleasure of the show for us, but that, because the new series is based not so much on the old series as it is on our experience of the old series.

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The characters are a little bit more aware.

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And it's a Moffat thing, really, rather than an R2 game.

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It's not throughout the whole new series.

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It's just, it's just what's happening at this period.

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I think.

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But I think Moffat does do that a bit.

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Yeah, Simon, I'm, I'm kind of with you on that in that, I think it's a symptom of this series in particular that goes right the way back to the same old, same old promotional material.

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The production team is sort of saying to the audience, you know what to expect from us.

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And it does remove a little bit of the drama.

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And I think there is an element to having the best of both worlds.

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You know, if we talk about Liz Laden again in, say, the seeds of doom, she has every faith that the doctor will get them out of this situation, but I'm thinking sort of on the Antarctic-based episodes.

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She has every faith doctor will get them out of this situation.

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But she still sells the gravity of the situation in her performance.

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I think what probably helps here is bringing back Rigsy, who we really loved last series, and so he's the one saying, no, no, no, like don't take the tattoo off me because it's not going to work out well.

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Yeah.

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You know, he's the one who doesn't know the rules of Doctor Who and is the sensible person screaming at the screen watching a horror film saying, don't go upstairs.

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Don't investigate the noise.

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Go back to the party.

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Yeah, it's one of those situations of, oh, this is really terrific drama, but I don't feel the danger as much.

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I'm not, as say, the idiot's lantern.

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Yeah, I'm not being drawn in.

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And you're absolutely right.

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It's like, it's like the difference between saying the doctor will get us out of this and only the doctor can get us out of this.

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Do you know what I mean?

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It's sort of like, you still have to, as I think, Nathan, you've said it right in that, in that the characters can't be, we can be aware that we know that there's going to be another episode next week in another season next year.

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And so therefore, the lead character will survive, one in one form or another.

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But the characters can't know that.

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And I think I think you can get away with that on a one here or there or every now and again, but when it sort of starts becoming this recurring theme throughout an entire season, that's when it starts to lose me.

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And I think that's my main problem with the season, I think, is I start to, I start to kind of lose interest.

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I'm not being drawn in.

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Although, to be fair, she does get killed in the episode.

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Do you know what I mean?

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There is a genuine risk and she is action.

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And that's the payoff, but we'll come to that long drawn out sequence a bit later, I suspect.

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I was trying to remember if I if I knew whether Clara was coming back on 1st viewing this episode.

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And I think I may have seen, I may have seen an image of her in the diner, the diner uniform, so I think maybe I kind of knew.

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Even if I didn't, I suspect the chances of Jenna Coleman not turning up in the next 2 episodes.

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I think I would have thought she's going to turn up again.

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And this comes back to whether the episode is trying to break the mould of a Doctor Who episode and then whether it succeeds.

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So it does, I think, try to break the mould of the episode in a, it does that thing where a character dies, you're getting the sense that time is running out, you're getting the sense things are not going to work out the same. as they did every other time we've been in this situation.

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And yet, we've seen so many characters in the new series of Doctor Who turn up again after seemingly fatal incidents have occurred to them that it is hard now to break that rule of the new series, the new series that, if someone can be remembered, it can come back.

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That rule is now so entrenched that it's hard to find the jeopardy in these characters storylines.

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Exactly.

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I, you say, Nathan, she dies at the end.

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I never thought when I was watching it the 1st time, that that was the death of the character, that she had actually does.

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I just thought it was like, yet another one of those things where, oh, actually, no, it wasn't a disintegrator.

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It was a teleport and she's somewhere else.

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I mean, you know what I mean?

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So that's what I'm saying.

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The show has always done that, though, hasn't it?

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And like when Billy Piper is shot by the Android in Bad Wolf, I don't think we think she's dead, I think we know that she isn't.

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And that sort of stuff happens all the time.

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Like Sarah's weeping over the doctor at the end of Pyramids.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But are we supposed to life?

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Aren't we supposed to think that the character's been killed in this episode?

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I think we are.

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I was surprised.

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Like we're supposed to think it's earth shock.

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Yeah I didn't expect it.

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And I think killing the companion is a bad idea on the whole.

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I think it doesn't work in Earthshock and we just chose the most disposable companion that no one really likes and then we all get over it in about 30 seconds. including the car. that's right.

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That's what makes.

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I think that's what makes Earthshock work is that we never really like that guy in the 1st place and now he's dead.

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And I think that's what really, that's where the real kicker is.

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Yeah, except that we're all over it.

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I mean, you know, Adrich wouldn't want us to mourn, Simon.

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We should go after the great exhibition.

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You know.

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So it's kind of the, it's crappy.

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And then I think that it was really gross in mind warp because you have the companion of Perry who is constantly being mauled by people and exist basically to have her rape, you know.

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Yeah, it's all just so rapey and creepy and that's really terrible.

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So I think it's generally a bad idea.

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And I think the surprising thing is that she has been in it as the companion for longer than anyone else.

193
00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:22.140
She's the longest serving companion in the new series by this point.

194
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:26.160
Are you talking about episodes or just...

195
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:28.200
So, well, no, I think in episodes.

196
00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:31.619
No one's done 2.5 seasons before her have they?

197
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.640
Well, Amy.

198
00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:34.200
How many did she do?

199
00:18:34.259 --> 00:18:35.579
She does 2.5 as well.

200
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.099
Well, her half is a shorter half, admittedly.

201
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:49.799
Yeah, you've got to take into account, shorter episodes, a longer episodes, but I think someone did the maths and it's like Amy, Clara, Jamie, and Yaz and Tegan have similar tenures.

202
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.059
And I think...

203
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.160
Pantheon...

204
00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:54.599
Minutes on screen.

205
00:18:54.660 --> 00:19:03.839
Yeah, and I think I think Clara just beats out Amy due to like the longer series 7B half and the extra specials and what have you.

206
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.859
So you can imagine, like, it's not like killing Katerina, right?

207
00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:15.240
It's more significant and there are kids watching and the death is pretty brutal.

208
00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:38.940
And what we get is exactly what we expect from Moffatt, where the story goes wrong in that she's killed and in that her death is a fridging in the sense that it's a female character whose death exists primarily to make the male protagonist have the feels.

209
00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:40.680
And boy, does he have the feels?

210
00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:41.640
I tell you what.

211
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:45.180
So that's a problem.

212
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:57.480
And I think Moffat is aware of the problem and I think that the rest of the season, we have, you know, the doctor hit absolute rock bottom in the next episode, but then we have the problem fixed.

213
00:19:57.539 --> 00:20:03.480
It's no longer a fridging because we're actually centring Clara in the final episode.

214
00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:07.859
Clara is the character who knows what's going on and the doctor doesn't.

215
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:18.359
The story is being told to Clara, and she's the one who we discover is in control of that entire situation, and she's no longer dead.

216
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:25.019
So Moffat does what he does so often, which is that things reach an absolute low point before they get better.

217
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:26.640
That's just normal in drama.

218
00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:34.559
I think the absolute low point, though, is that the actual storytelling goes wrong in Moffat and that it gets fixed at the end.

219
00:20:34.619 --> 00:20:38.640
And so this is pretty standard sort of moffetry, I think.

220
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:46.920
And I think he is aware of what's going on with this, that why this death isn't the sort of thing that should happen on Doctor Who.

221
00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:51.299
And to add to that in Hellbent.

222
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.980
Clara, of course, has to correct the doctor's behaviour, yeah. to set the story right.

223
00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:01.140
She does have an important role to play as an agent of change in that episode.

224
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:08.579
And I think it's also interesting in that episode, how she keeps trying to tell people that she's okay with the status quo and she's okay with how she is.

225
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.460
She does it about 2 or 3 times in that episode.

226
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.460
And eventually she has to say, why won't anyone listen to me when I'm saying?

227
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.799
What do we think about Maisie Williams in this episode?

228
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.720
Uh, look, I think she's really great.

229
00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:42.779
I remember at the time there was sort of disappointment around her portrayal because I think everyone was just expecting her to be Aria from Game of Thrones, but she's an actor.

230
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:44.160
She's giving a different performance.

231
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.880
And I think it's subtly different enough from what we've seen before.

232
00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:53.819
And she's got like such self-assurance and such confidence until everything goes wrong.

233
00:21:53.880 --> 00:22:02.039
It's hard to act in that scene with Jenna and Peter doing their thing, but I think she really holds her own in that final scene.

234
00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:09.779
I'll just sort of echo what I said in the woman who lived episode, which was, I'm not 100% convinced she's that great an actor.

235
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:17.759
I think she's fine and I think she was very engaging in Game of Thrones partly because the character in it all worked.

236
00:22:17.819 --> 00:22:19.740
And I don't think it's typecasting.

237
00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:24.480
I don't think it's the fact that, yeah, I'm imagining her as Aria Stark and that's all I can see.

238
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:29.220
I don't think it's that, but I've never been convinced in all the episodes she's in this season.

239
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:32.220
I'm just not 100% convinced of the performance.

240
00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:44.759
So I watched the girl who died and the woman who lived and then faced the raven in that order so that I could see what happens to a shoulder or slash me across those 3 episodes.

241
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:47.519
And it's a really good way to watch, actually.

242
00:22:47.579 --> 00:22:50.519
And then I watched Hellbent after...

243
00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:58.619
So I really got a sense of 4 quite different performances, actually, from her, which is what she's called upon to do.

244
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:02.099
Like she's called the one to be distinctly different in each of those 4 episodes.

245
00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:05.460
And it's, I think it's a really difficult job she's been given.

246
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:10.740
And I think she acquits herself pretty well, actually, in doing those different things.

247
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:12.359
Like if you go back to the girl who died.

248
00:23:12.420 --> 00:23:22.019
She really is playing a teenager in that and she's got a whole sort of body language and a whole sort of mannerisms, which is very different to when you get to face the raven.

249
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.700
If there's something that doesn't quite land about it.

250
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:37.619
For me, it's, she doesn't seem to have a sort of gravitat in her, in her, um, in her physical performance, and particularly when you get to this episode where she's in control of this world.

251
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:45.000
I think she does it pretty well, but there's something about her, something about her stature or the way she's delivering her lines, which doesn't quite land.

252
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:57.539
And I think the other thing, I keep thinking about a shoulder about how many times we've seen Moffatt, do a woman as a sort of complex space-time event, which is popping up in the doctor's history.

253
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:04.920
You know, it's getting pretty crowded in Dragonfire and the 5 doctors with people popping up in the background in photos or clips, you know?

254
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:18.720
So if you think about river, if you think about the impossible girl and you think about a shilder, there's a pattern here about women as puzzle boxes and people who confound the doctor and who keep peering in times of his life.

255
00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:24.900
And I, you know, I think there's also something unsettling about the doctor in a Schilders relationship.

256
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:36.299
So, it's not uncommon, you know, in TV, Doctor Who, in books, Doctor Who, in all sorts of things to have these sort of morally ambiguous characters who are sometimes helping the doctor and sometimes at odds with the doctor.

257
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:39.900
And I think, I think that bit is okay.

258
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:49.380
But I've never been sold by the reason why the doctor couldn't have just rescued her in the woman who lived, as she was requesting him to do.

259
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.299
So take me away from all this.

260
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:57.420
And it reminds me, Nathan, of your, uh, the, the phrase that keeps coming back to me about this is space reason.

261
00:24:57.779 --> 00:25:07.440
You know, there's actually, it's not particularly convincing that this very powerful figure, this very powerful man shouldn't do what his friend is asking him to do.

262
00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:08.640
His friend's asking him for help.

263
00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:15.839
And he constantly says, no, it's not the right time or no, it wouldn't work out very well or, you know, insert unconvincing reasons.

264
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:25.319
Well, the unconvincing reason, sorry to butt in there, I think, is usually presented as the doctor feels that the person in question has some kind of moral failing, which means that they deserve to go with him.

265
00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:36.539
And I sort of felt like at the end of the woman who lived, that that was an inadequate reason because he's not giving her enough of the benefit of the doubt for the kind of life she's had to leave for the last half many 100 years. you know what I mean?

266
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:37.740
Completely by that.

267
00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:45.660
I mean, what that episode says is that he doesn't take her because the 2 of them are the same and so that's a problem.

268
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:47.700
But he doesn't need to take her.

269
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.299
No.

270
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:52.559
He doesn't, he just needs to take her away from that period of history so she can live a better life.

271
00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:59.519
She does, in fact, though, get to she does seem to have more purpose here.

272
00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:04.259
There is that kind of, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

273
00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:08.220
She's a bit distanced and a little bit, you know, she cares about something.

274
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:10.619
She has something that she cares about doing.

275
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:13.680
And she cares about people in the way that me didn't.

276
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:20.460
And so her interaction with the doctor has done something, has given her a renewed sense of purpose.

277
00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:37.319
When we did the Woman Who Lived episode, Richard mentioned that Rufus Hound and Maisie Williams had been given cameras and were recording each other, and I went and watched some of that, and I was just so shocked.

278
00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:40.859
Like Maisie Williams is 17, I think, at this point.

279
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:41.759
Is she?

280
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.819
She's really young and it's why she's so babyfaced.

281
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.160
And she's so girly.

282
00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:49.200
It's so adorable.

283
00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:50.220
Like, it's terribly cute.

284
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.579
Rufus Hound says to her, oh, this is your 1st TV, isn't it?

285
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:54.599
And she says, yes, you know.

286
00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:56.160
And he explains to her.

287
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:59.279
This is a mark and that's where she has to stand.

288
00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:02.460
And like it's really funny, but she's so sweet.

289
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:04.619
Like, it's really surprising.

290
00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:10.500
And, you know, seeing her like, she's not carefree in that 1st episode.

291
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:17.460
She loves the boys, you know, the Vikings who come back safe and stuff and she loves them and he's loved by them.

292
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:24.420
But other than that, she's kind of an austere figure and she's really sort of distant and serious and stuff.

293
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:29.339
And it was just funny seeing how different that is from herself at this point.

294
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:31.680
Yeah, yeah, but just take care of what Johnny said before.

295
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:35.400
I think she does lack a certain stature to be able to then fully carry it off.

296
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:36.960
And I think that's what I'm trying to say before about.

297
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:38.400
I'm not convinced she's the best actress.

298
00:27:38.460 --> 00:27:39.480
Maybe that's unfair.

299
00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.400
I think she's a little bit miscast for this.

300
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:47.220
I think they're too excited about having her from Game of Thrones in this and they've got this role and I think it needed...

301
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.500
I didn't realise she was that young still.

302
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:54.059
So I think she, I think it needed someone who was just a little bit older to carry it maybe.

303
00:27:54.119 --> 00:28:05.819
I do like the kind of contrast between that sort of chubby-cheeked, baby-faced appearance that she has and, you know, how powerful she's become clearly at this point.

304
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:10.440
And then seeing her at the end of the universe in 2 weeks' time is putting a coat of all as well.

305
00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:14.099
She's terrific in that scene at the end of the universe too.

306
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.539
And I really do sense another step change in her performance from there again.

307
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:25.980
You know, they've made a conscious decision to cast someone young who's going to age across in the narrative.

308
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:31.619
And I suppose the other option would have been to cast someone older and to get them to be younger at the beginning.

309
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:33.359
And I think the risk is the same.

310
00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:38.099
You know, I think it's a difficult thing to do whichever way you choose to go.

311
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:57.539
I think that change between just an actual girl, like a 17 year old, uh, you know, who the doctor does this weird thing too, and now she just sort of lives forever, and she's eternally 17, And so there's this weird dissonance between her appearance and her kind of demeanour.

312
00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:58.559
Yeah.

313
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:08.759
She gets a nice line in the woman who lived, incidentally, where she's talking about Clara, and they're stuck in, they're stuck in a chimney for story reasons.

314
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:16.980
I can't remember at the moment, but she says she says to the doctor about Clara, but there's something bad is going to happen to her and she says she'll blow away like smoke.

315
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:21.359
And actually, actually is a reference, I think, forward to face the raven.

316
00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:28.380
He only saves a shilder because he's terrified of Clara dying and he even says that in The Girl Who Died.

317
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:36.960
So, you know, we've been seeding Clara dying and Clara's death has been bound up with a shilde all the way through the season, I think.

318
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:42.660
So what about when he says, Captain Jack, he says, he'll get around to you eventually.

319
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.740
What are you saying, doctor?

320
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:48.839
No wonder he got cancelled.

321
00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:01.859
It's interesting like with how effective that death is.

322
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:07.500
And, you know, it's not a transmat beam, it's not a glowing effect or anything like that.

323
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.259
It's very unequivocally physical.

324
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.180
You know what I mean?

325
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.400
And there is a body at the end of it.

326
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.619
And we've already seen someone else die like this.

327
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.220
What's amazing to me is reading up on this episode.

328
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:24.180
Sarah Dollard basically pitched for episode seven.

329
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:30.119
Basically pitched for a one off story, unconnected from the arc, pretty much the same structure.

330
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.819
So there, it was called Trap Street.

331
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:39.119
It was still the sort of alien refugee camp, but the mayor was not a shielder.

332
00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:42.779
It was an original character, and the plot revolved around.

333
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:44.400
There was a Santarian in the camp.

334
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:47.039
So Dan Starkey gets another paycheque.

335
00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:50.279
Um, and Clara even walks in and distracts.

336
00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:51.539
What the hell are you doing here?

337
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:54.059
And he's like, no, I'm Commander Scan.

338
00:30:54.119 --> 00:31:08.940
And what it is, he's actually a plant for the Santarans and is planning an invasion of Earth and masterminds the whole situation to destabilise the camp so that the Santarans can use it as a base.

339
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.160
And so it's just a basic who done it.

340
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:28.140
And then after getting the script, Moffatt went, well, if we put a shoulder in this and I've been talking about when to kill Clara this season, if we do it just before the finale, hey, Sarah, how would you like to kill off a companion and use Maisie Williams and Sarah said, yes, please.

341
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:41.220
I think I'm really preferring that episode we didn't have, actually, because I think there's so much interesting stuff in there that is effectively just brushed over in this and that's one of the issues I have with the episodes.

342
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:46.500
I think there's so many interesting there's so much interesting potential with this refugee camp and what you could do with it.

343
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:53.039
And basically, I just think a much better story could be constructed in it and that one sounds like it'll do.

344
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:53.519
Thank you very much.

345
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:55.259
See, I feel the opposite way.

346
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.240
I feel like surprised me.

347
00:31:57.299 --> 00:31:57.839
Yeah.

348
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:07.740
Like as I'm watching it, as the death of Clara comes in 10 minutes from the end, it's like a full quarter of the episode is that scene.

349
00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:10.740
I kind of think, well, that's okay. okay.

350
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:19.859
I don't think, though, that, like, what it is, instead we get an alien invasion, which are just sort of 10 a penny.

351
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:27.299
It always surprised me that Trap Street was pitched as a standalone story because I just didn't think that there was enough there.

352
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:29.700
And I think what we do get.

353
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:32.400
Like, I think it's an inventive idea.

354
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:36.359
I think it's really it is really... a very inventive idea.

355
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:36.960
Do you know that?

356
00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:37.500
I love that.

357
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:38.099
I love that idea.

358
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:38.880
I think it's great.

359
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.259
But it's a backdrop.

360
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:47.279
It only being allowed to be a backdrop to what they want to do, this piece of self-indulgence that they want to go through, basically.

361
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:49.740
But I mean, I'm not sure that it's a piece of self-indulgence.

362
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:54.420
I mean, it is, you know, when companions leave in the new series.

363
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.200
It is always traumatic.

364
00:32:58.380 --> 00:32:59.759
Yeah.

365
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.180
And, you know, things like doomsday and journeys end and stuff.

366
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:06.359
And I think the show can do that and can have that.

367
00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:16.859
And when we were watching it as children, the companions leaving was never quite that, but that's how we felt about it.

368
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:21.839
Perhaps with the exception of Joe, when Joe leaves and the doctor's really broken up about that.

369
00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:25.440
And Joe is probably signposted through the relationship with Cliff.

370
00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:31.140
I think the Trap Street stuff is, as you say, it's a backdrop to what happens.

371
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:46.079
And it's an unusually rich and interesting backdrop, actually, and it does feel like there's a Doctor Who story there, which could be played out, but it's a sign of, it's a sign of confidence in the series that it's prepared to just let it be a backdrop.

372
00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:48.900
It's also a massive diversion as well too.

373
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:55.559
So, there's actually the murder mystery within the Trap Street is of no relevance to what happens in the episode.

374
00:33:55.619 --> 00:33:56.759
It's not even necessary.

375
00:33:56.819 --> 00:33:58.259
It's not even a murder.

376
00:33:58.380 --> 00:33:58.799
She's fine.

377
00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:01.740
Yes, yes, yes.

378
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:06.299
Shelda could have grabbed the doctor the moment he walked into the trap street.

379
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:10.139
And so it has no impact on the plot.

380
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:19.320
And that does make it feel a bit off putting that we've put so much time and energy into world building of this place.

381
00:34:19.380 --> 00:34:22.139
And I think that's done pretty well pretty quickly.

382
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:29.519
You get a sense of somewhere, which is, uh, which is an interesting and exciting place to be, but we're not going to spend much time there.

383
00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:33.059
And then when the episode ends, we never hear of it again.

384
00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:35.159
It's not revisited.

385
00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:47.460
Presumably Rigsy gets out of Trap Street with his memory wiped or something and everyone goes back to being a cyberman with a human face or something or, you know, presumably life goes on in Trap Street.

386
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:58.559
But I find that a really common thing in the Moffat era and is that ideas are introduced or scenarios are introduced and then dumped relatively quickly.

387
00:34:58.619 --> 00:35:07.619
Sometimes mid-episodes, sometimes at the end of the episode, because they've just been a way of getting us in to the story and getting us to tell the story Moffatt really wants to.

388
00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:09.900
I think that's a nice way of looking at it.

389
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:11.820
But I think it's a generous way of looking at it.

390
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:23.579
I think that it's more a question of that, you know, whatever, whether it's time pressures, last minute changes, and then things are left over from things that were taken out, then there's this bit of detritus that's been left behind.

391
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:28.320
And I suppose what I'm saying is I think you give them too much credit in terms of how these things actually unfold.

392
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:31.079
I guess I'm not trying to give them credit.

393
00:35:31.139 --> 00:35:33.960
I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to explain what I'm fair enough.

394
00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:35.519
Really, is all I'm trying to do.

395
00:35:35.579 --> 00:35:37.559
I don't quite know how to feel about it.

396
00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:46.079
I'd actually, I actually wouldn't swap out the conclusion of the episode for us to tie up some loose ends around Trap Street.

397
00:35:46.139 --> 00:35:48.539
I think we've moved on from that relatively.

398
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:58.739
I mean, I think the involvement of the time lords and Clara's behaviour just come in and break that story and now we're going to do something else.

399
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:04.920
I don't think the story would benefit from having a less rich and interesting backdrop against which to have this drama.

400
00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:06.179
Oh, I'm not saying.

401
00:36:06.179 --> 00:36:12.840
And so I think that because the forces are so great that warp this story.

402
00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:13.800
Do you know what I mean?

403
00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:21.480
I think the time lords can come in and turn the narrative around or do something really odd to the narrative and that's what's happening here, I think.

404
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:26.159
I think that the original version of Trap Street might have been interesting.

405
00:36:26.219 --> 00:36:29.460
And I think Sarah Dollard is really pretty damn great.

406
00:36:29.579 --> 00:36:33.599
And her next episode is also pretty good as well.

407
00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:37.079
And she writes very, very well for Capoldi's doctor.

408
00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:38.639
I don't know.

409
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:58.260
I mean, I actually quite like the scene, even before we know that Clara's going to die, the way that things start falling apart before that happens, the way the story, as a murder mystery just breaks down because the victim's alive.

410
00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:04.320
Like, I think that that's actually, that is actually pretty great and pretty interesting.

411
00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:17.340
And, you know, that backdrop is a real place and a really interesting place and I think it is well realised and I'm kind of just content to have that and we move on to something else.

412
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:27.659
I think my issue is the way the sort of the death sequence unfolds is that it is, I mean, whilst the fact that capality is absolutely spectacular in that sequence, in those sequences and afterwards.

413
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.500
I just find the whole thing, that whole thing just goes on far too long.

414
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.920
And because I just don't feel invested in it.

415
00:37:34.980 --> 00:37:38.159
I just I just feel like, okay, yeah, I get the point.

416
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:39.059
I get what's going to happen.

417
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:50.280
I think it just needed to unfold a little bit more rapidly because I think it's more shocking if it happens a bit more suddenly than this endless march to the execution.

418
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:58.199
And I know the feeling they were probably trying to get that feeling of that, you know, like, you know, someone being escorted to the electric chair or something.

419
00:37:58.260 --> 00:38:10.559
But it just for me, the whole thing just slows down to a standstill and I can't get invested in what's going to happen, partly because I, going back to that previous point, partly because I'm not buying the fact that she's actually going to die.

420
00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:17.400
And so all that endless lead up is over the top for me.

421
00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:24.599
Yeah, I mean, I think I think what's interesting is having a character knowing that they're going to die and that there's nothing that can be done.

422
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:25.440
Absolutely.

423
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:28.559
And then just that interaction between those 2 actors.

424
00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:37.559
I mean, yes, look, I do, I do find myself moved by that episode, but I'm also watching it being done.

425
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:38.699
Do you know what I mean?

426
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:42.840
You're watching the dialogue you're watching, the characters, and I'm happy to watch TV like that.

427
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:44.579
Like, that's generally how I watch it.

428
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:48.840
The sequence in the drawing room where they're talking about what's going to happen.

429
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:49.800
That's great.

430
00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:53.400
It's then, even though maybe it goes on a little bit too long.

431
00:38:53.460 --> 00:38:58.440
But then it's these desperately slow sort of things where she goes out into the street and these shots with the raven.

432
00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.139
It's all that that's, oh, please.

433
00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:13.019
Yeah, something we discussed last night was as soon as the credits rolled, Rod said, it's really good. the repeated shots of Clara crying out.

434
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:16.320
He said, that's cruel. cruel for a child.

435
00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:19.800
And I think it's there to sell that this is real.

436
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:23.880
Just trying to say that she's actually dying as opposed to where it's not a trick.

437
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:24.900
Yeah.

438
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:30.840
And you know, it's a recognised cinematic device, especially for violent moments that you repeat it from several angles.

439
00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:37.019
I think it just needed to be a little bit tighter on some of those shots in terms of time.

440
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.719
That whole buildup where they're talking to each other.

441
00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:47.039
It's the same kind of buildup as the doctor, Nissa and Tegan, running around the console room saying we have to get Adric out.

442
00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:51.360
It's Brian Blessed running down the corridor to get to Perry.

443
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:58.800
It's his sort of buildup of action where you as the viewer are going, no, no, no, no, no, no.

444
00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:03.900
It gives time for that realisation of, oh, she's actually not going to get out of it this time.

445
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.840
But at the same time, it's a double-edged sword.

446
00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:13.019
It's like if it's not working for you from the 1st line, it's not going to be working for you by the last line.

447
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:24.300
The moment in that speech when you twig that it's not going to work out this time, is the moment you start to lose interest in the scene because there's a discomfort.

448
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.199
There was for me anyway watching it, it's like, actually, I just want to get past this bit.

449
00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:33.119
I want to get past this bit because I know what's coming now and I am uncomfortable.

450
00:40:33.179 --> 00:40:35.579
Yeah, I feel like there's no right answer.

451
00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:43.739
I think that scene is too long and I think that the repeated shots of the silent scream at the end are a little bit clunky.

452
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:49.199
But then the whole artifice of Trap Street is present throughout the whole thing.

453
00:40:49.260 --> 00:40:58.920
Like, so we move, at the beginning of the episode, we're in the real world, we're wandering around London, we've been to Rigsey's flat, and then we move into what's clearly a fantasy world.

454
00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:01.980
You know, the sets look very theatrical.

455
00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:10.380
You know, it's full of witches and smoke and birds and it feels like it's from a, from a fantasy perspective.

456
00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:15.480
And so it's hard when you get to that bit of the end where you're going to kill off a character.

457
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:22.019
When everything about the aesthetic of the episode has felt quite storybook or quite fairy tale, if you like.

458
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:33.300
There's a China Mieville book called Kraken, and it also has hidden streets in London that have fantasy creatures in it.

459
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:37.679
I was getting sort of diagon alley vibes from the street itself.

460
00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:39.059
And I think that's right.

461
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:42.059
It does take place suddenly in this storybook world.

462
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:47.760
And part of what happens is that Clara misunderstands the rules of the world.

463
00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:51.840
Like there's no reason why her plan shouldn't work.

464
00:41:51.900 --> 00:42:03.360
And it's only that moment at the end where we learn that it's, you can pass the thing on, but you can't cheat it completely.

465
00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:07.920
And then we, you know, the thing that Rump tells her earlier.

466
00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:16.920
And then we suddenly realised that we should have known all along that this was how that worked, that that was what he meant by that.

467
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:22.380
But in a sense, the rules are magical and arbitrary. aren't they?

468
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:23.940
That's not a criticism.

469
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:50.039
I think the fact that it is a storybook thing, the fact that it's a raven, I think, is stunningly great, and the way that the, we start seeing shots of the raven, as we are learning that Clara is inevitably going to die, and hearing it cawing, and all of that, and even just the expression, face the raven, I think, is is so good, like all of that stuff works really, really, very well indeed.

470
00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:52.679
I mean, that's true.

471
00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:58.079
Like, it just has to be that way because that's what the fictional version of this is going to be.

472
00:42:58.139 --> 00:43:02.760
You know, like it's never going, the quantum shade, which we never find out what it is.

473
00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:05.099
It's rushed over what it is.

474
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.679
It's never going to take the form of a bunny rabbit, right?

475
00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:10.320
It's never going to take the form of something cute and cuddly.

476
00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:13.139
It's got to be something vaguely menacing like a raven.

477
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:18.780
There's no in story reason given for why it likes to spend its time as a raven.

478
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.780
Why it likes to spend its time caged up all the time.

479
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:40.320
It has to be like that because, because we have this, because it's symbolic, because it brings back ideas about the occult and, you know, that darkness, which, which, that shiver you, you always feel when you see this big blackbirds, you know, and you think it can't be anything else.

480
00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:46.619
So, I think I'm convinced, well, what you're saying, Nathan, is, you know, the fictionality of it kind of takes over.

481
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:47.159
Yeah.

482
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:51.659
You know, it gets drawn by what it has to be to make the fiction of it work.

483
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:57.360
I mean, it's just telling the doctors explanation of what it is is it's a kind of spirit.

484
00:43:57.420 --> 00:44:02.340
Like we're well and truly not doing anything remotely resembling science fiction.

485
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.199
Well, no, you don't need to...

486
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:05.820
That would just really get bogged down.

487
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:07.320
Oh, yeah, it's from the planet Quam.

488
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:07.800
Exactly.

489
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:09.119
Like blah, blah, blah.

490
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:10.800
And they lived for 370 years.

491
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

492
00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:18.599
And they have to kill once every 3 days. otherwise they lose their connection to the dimmy-dong thing, you know.

493
00:44:18.659 --> 00:44:21.960
Well, in fact, all this is now, all this is now.

494
00:44:22.019 --> 00:44:22.739
Exactly, you know.

495
00:44:22.739 --> 00:44:24.780
Return to quantity.

496
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:26.880
Big finish.

497
00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:33.179
It doesn't I didn't quite get understand the reason why if you can pass it on and so and so on.

498
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:42.599
Why can't Clara pass it back to Rigsy and then she, if for whatever reason the deal she's done means that she can only extract it from Rigsy and no one else.

499
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:47.099
Yeah, she can't give it back to him.

500
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:54.000
Or if she did give it back to him, he would die because me says that you've cut me out of the loop.

501
00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:56.280
This was an arrangement between me and the shade.

502
00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:00.300
And now it's not I haven't given the shame.

503
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:00.960
Yes, yes.

504
00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:06.840
So there is some dialogue to kind of try and work around that and it's not too tedious and it just does what it means.

505
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:07.800
And it doesn't really matter.

506
00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:29.579
I have to say, too, that the even just that beginning thing where Rigsy calls up and says, I've got a tattoo on the back of my neck that's counting down is so brilliant.

507
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:31.380
Like, it's so clever.

508
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:35.280
You know, we've been at this for so long, this stupid show.

509
00:45:35.340 --> 00:45:42.119
And like it matches to do something incredibly different that you would never have imagined before.

510
00:45:42.179 --> 00:45:48.900
That's really visual and effective, that doesn't require 15 minutes of exposition to get it.

511
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:49.500
To get it there.

512
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:49.860
Exactly.

513
00:45:49.920 --> 00:46:02.039
It's very clear what it is And it just leads to some absolutely joyful moments like the doctor being in awe over Lucy, the baby.

514
00:46:02.099 --> 00:46:03.239
A new human.

515
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:03.599
Yes.

516
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:16.679
Yeah, and then and then when he figures out that he can't immediately think of a way to rescue Rigsey, he grabs the cards and starts using Rigsey's name and Rigsey's like, no, don't use my name. use my name.

517
00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:17.400
I know it seriously.

518
00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:29.460
Speaking of Rigsy, his proper name in one version of the script, which is not spoken on screen for obvious reasons, was Christopher Riggins.

519
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:31.860
No, please no.

520
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:37.320
I think Sarah Dollar knew it would never make it discreet.

521
00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:41.699
I mean, Rigsy's an interesting choice because we've seen him once before.

522
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:46.920
It could easily have been Osgood or someone we're more familiar with.

523
00:46:47.099 --> 00:46:49.559
It doesn't, you know, it's someone we've seen in multiple episodes.

524
00:46:49.619 --> 00:47:07.139
I think it's never a bad idea to have positive male young role in the show and I think that a lack of knowledge about Rigsey's world and what else is happening to him makes us do fear a little bit more for him that things might go wrong for him.

525
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.480
He might actually be in genuine danger here.

526
00:47:09.539 --> 00:47:17.880
But I think that beginning section suffers a little bit from the pacing problems that we're mentioning about the end of the, the end of the episode as well.

527
00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:35.880
I think it does take a little bit too long, all of that stuff in the map room and then walking around London, and actually, why couldn't we have just gone there because the doctor makes this enormous leap of logic when he says, oh, Rigsy, you've had contact with aliens in the last 24 hours.

528
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:41.880
Suddenly he goes, right, well, it must be because there's a group of hidden aliens somewhere, if we look for a trap story, we'll find them.

529
00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:53.400
So it takes up a lot of time where we could have, you know, the simple narrative device about finding a piece of evidence would have led them to that point could have been done a lot faster and we could have been in the world a lot faster than we are.

530
00:47:53.460 --> 00:47:54.900
That's a very good point, actually.

531
00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:05.280
It reminds me of that long sequence at the end towards the end of the visitation where they're all standing in the console room looking at a map of 1666 London with a line going across it.

532
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:07.980
It's like we just get there, just arrive.

533
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:10.920
So they find the place and they arrive, you know?

534
00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:17.460
But, I mean, those scenes do have a sort of character thing because we did talk about Clara hanging out the door and stuff like that.

535
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:20.280
And I do think the conceit is super interesting.

536
00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:21.599
Like that's really fun.

537
00:48:21.659 --> 00:48:31.079
And I know that we've had perception filters and things like that before, but you know, I love the detail of how when you walk past it, if you're counting, you might lose count.

538
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:32.039
Oh yeah, that's cool.

539
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:33.599
All of that stuff is really kind of...

540
00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:37.079
I mean, if that was true, then honestly, I'd be passing trap streets every day.

541
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:42.300
I can't remember what I'm doing at any point in time.

542
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.719
And the idea of the trap street is a trap for the doctor is nice.

543
00:48:45.780 --> 00:48:47.760
There's a nice little kicker as well too.

544
00:48:47.820 --> 00:49:00.900
There was originally a lot more searching for the Trap Street, so it got cut down to what we got, but there were moments like the doctor would just walk face 1st into a wall thinking it was going to be at the Trap Street.

545
00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:16.739
When they finally found it, they were sort of going to join hands and the doctor's like, right, we need something to disrupt the psychic field, and Rigsy would remember the birth of his kid, and they walk forward and find themselves in a coffee shop with coffees, like 10 minutes have passed and they're like, oh.

546
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:17.820
Well, what happened?

547
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:22.500
But part of the reason I'm bringing in Rigsy was Sarah Dolite had the idea.

548
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.320
This was when it was just Commander Scan trying to start a war.

549
00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:26.760
He's the one who phoned Rigsy.

550
00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:32.219
Rigsy came along, painted a door to go through to the Trap Street.

551
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:34.079
Oh, because he's a graffiti.

552
00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:35.099
Graffitias, yes.

553
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:35.940
That's a good case.

554
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:39.179
And then later when, yeah, when the doctor thinks there's nothing we can do.

555
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:47.519
He and Clara take Rigsy home and go in to meet the family to kind of be honest with them and say, hey, this is what's happening.

556
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:53.519
And the doctor looks around and there's drawings of the TARDIS everywhere and the doctor's like, you draw the TARDIS, you draw doors.

557
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:56.519
And they would go back and draw the Tartar store and go through.

558
00:49:56.579 --> 00:49:58.800
So, you know, in.

559
00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:04.019
It's like the door got convinced basically. not the 1st time he'd drawn doors to advance the plot.

560
00:50:04.139 --> 00:50:05.519
Exactly.

561
00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:09.119
Johnny, with what you were saying about there must have been a simpler way.

562
00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:26.099
I just thought to myself, there's actually nothing in the rules with fixed points and whatnot that the doctor couldn't have gone back to half an hour after Rigsey got the call, park guitars opposite the street and just gone, oh, okay, that's it. and then pop forward and that would have got us there in about 5 minutes.

563
00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:39.780
I mean, I was thinking the reason that we have Rigsy is because Rigsy is from Flatline, which is a story, again, where Clara plays the doctor, and he has a relationship with Clara, not the doctor.

564
00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:42.239
He barely meets the doctor at the end.

565
00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:47.280
And so he's calling Clara for help because in his world, she's the doctor.

566
00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:49.679
And so I think that that's important.

567
00:50:49.739 --> 00:50:59.760
The other thing is that Jen, who we hear on the phone, but we don't actually see is Naomi Aki, who is Whitney Houston in the biopic, really?

568
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:05.880
And is also Finn's sort of love interest in Rise of Skywalker as well.

569
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:12.719
So she's cut completely doesn't appear on screen at all, but she does have a credit when we do hear her over the phone.

570
00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:14.400
Yeah.

571
00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:21.719
And we also have Letitia Wright as Anna son who would go on to find great fame in the MCU and the Black Panther films.

572
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:25.559
And to be a sort of weird COVID denialist or something.

573
00:51:25.619 --> 00:51:27.239
Yeah.

574
00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:42.119
Yeah, and speaking of another bit of questionable casting we could have had is the 1st draft of the script opens in a regency era garden with the doctor playing poker with Jane Austen, while Bill Hickock and Jeremy Clarkson.

575
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:43.079
Oh my god.

576
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:51.119
Now, then in early March 2015, of course, there was an incident with Jeremy Clarkson not being able to have a hot dinner.

577
00:51:51.179 --> 00:52:00.000
And he was shortly thereafter dumped by the BBC, in the next version of the script dated the 27th of March, 2015.

578
00:52:00.300 --> 00:52:04.679
Jeremy Clarkson is replaced with a far less controversial figure, Russell Brand.

579
00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:05.219
Oh, great.

580
00:52:05.219 --> 00:52:10.920
So it's probably for the best that we got that opening sequence.

581
00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:13.019
We just had this really fun adventure.

582
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.480
Maybe controversy. don't know.

583
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:17.519
That's right.

584
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:19.679
Yeah, the sentient plant might have been Russell.

585
00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:20.280
Yes, exactly.

586
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:23.099
I have to say, it's disappointing.

587
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:27.599
I would have liked to have seen Rigsy as a short-term companion, like maybe doing some 4 or 5 episodes.

588
00:52:27.659 --> 00:52:28.860
I think he's very very cool.

589
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:30.420
The actor is very engaging to watch.

590
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:44.280
And yeah, and yeah. and I think it would have worked better if he'd have been in it maybe a few more episodes of this season, while Clara is getting more and more reckless and careless and confident to have a companion who is, wait a minute, this is all terrifying and we're all going to die.

591
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:46.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

592
00:52:46.139 --> 00:52:47.579
Yeah, yeah.

593
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:52.260
Joyvin Wade has, you know, thankfully gone from strength to strength.

594
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:56.400
He's also Victor Stone slash cyborg in Doom Patrol and Titans.

595
00:52:56.460 --> 00:52:57.179
Oh, okay.

596
00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:00.539
So he, you know, thankfully has done well for himself.

597
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:11.099
And he is a great actor and like on the Doctor Who extra making of both Capaldi and Jenna talk about how much they enjoyed working with him.

598
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:13.500
And he's on the making of going, I'm back for Doctor Who.

599
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:14.219
I got the call again.

600
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:21.420
It's funny because it's not an ear that does memorable guest characters, I think, generally.

601
00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:26.460
I think Russell can do that, but it's not something that Moffatt's particularly interested in.

602
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:28.440
And I think he's really great.

603
00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:30.780
I think he does it more in the Matt Smith era.

604
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:32.099
I think it just a Capaldi or a thing.

605
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:34.800
I think it's just the direction that they're taking they're taking the show.

606
00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:38.099
Yeah, the kind of the kind of stories they're doing are different.

607
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.199
The kind of episodes they're doing, the structures of changes.

608
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:44.400
Most of the drama happens to the regulars rather than to other characters, I think.

609
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:53.460
Oh, I was just about to say, it's a very introspective time in the show, it's history, the Capaldi era, whereas the Matt Smith era did seem to look outwards a little bit more.

610
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:53.940
Indeed.

611
00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:55.980
We are really, for these 3 years.

612
00:53:56.039 --> 00:54:00.420
I mean, the 1st year is about, you know, the doctor asking himself about his own character.

613
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:01.860
I know.

614
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:05.099
The 2nd one is about what is happening with Clara.

615
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:07.619
And then 3rd one is even about what's happening with Missy.

616
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:09.420
You know, so. on board with that one though.

617
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:10.199
Well, yeah.

618
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:13.380
I'm only on board for it for that last year.

619
00:54:13.380 --> 00:54:18.960
But the drummer is really, you know, you know, my companion's comic relief and...

620
00:54:19.019 --> 00:54:19.260
Yes.

621
00:54:20.820 --> 00:54:26.519
But, you know, never is that true of an in Face to Raven, where we abandoned the plot.

622
00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:32.159
We abandoned the trapstrait plot to get back to the to the drama which is happening to our internal characters.

623
00:54:32.219 --> 00:54:35.699
And I think I think there are pros and cons about that.

624
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:40.079
And I think one of the pros of it is enables Capaldi to show what a fantastic actor.

625
00:54:40.139 --> 00:54:40.860
Yeah.

626
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:43.679
He's magnificent in that whole sequence, isn't he?

627
00:54:43.739 --> 00:54:44.940
He's so great.

628
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:45.960
He's so good.

629
00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:58.920
And even that sort of conversation, you know, which is obviously going to lead into next week, the I'm not going to make you promise I'm giving you an order, you know, no one else is to suffer.

630
00:54:58.980 --> 00:55:01.920
And you know, then he says, well, what about me?

631
00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:04.199
And she says, well, I can't help that.

632
00:55:04.260 --> 00:55:05.880
All of that stuff is so good.

633
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:07.500
And Capoldi is so great.

634
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:12.300
There's a moment where he's like, he's peering up for most of that.

635
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:16.559
But there's one where he just looks at her with such love.

636
00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:19.500
Like he just loves her so much.

637
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:21.119
It's so well done.

638
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:31.739
And, you know, like, I think I think Matt Smith is an extraordinary actor and one of the very best actors to ever play the role, but I can't imagine him doing what Capoldi does here.

639
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:33.719
He's so magnificent.

640
00:55:33.780 --> 00:55:34.440
He's so good.

641
00:55:34.500 --> 00:55:36.059
He's very good.

642
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:40.980
And it's that's why it's so great he gets next week's episode to himself as well too.

643
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.980
And it's really allowed to own that space for 45 minutes.

644
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:44.699
It's amazing.

645
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:08.639
Well, that's all we have to look for this week.

646
00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:15.659
We'll be back next week to talk about Peter Capoldi doing a lot of things over and over again in heaven's sent.

647
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:34.079
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

648
00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:38.639
Until next time, be reckless, like the doctor.

649
00:56:38.699 --> 00:56:40.920
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

650
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:42.300
Good night.

651
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:43.079
Bye bye.

652
00:56:43.139 --> 00:56:43.980
See you soon.

653
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:55.079
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brennan, Jones, Simon Moore, and Johnny Spandrel.

654
00:56:55.139 --> 00:56:57.059
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

655
00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:03.119
This episode, the planet Quantos, was recorded on the 29th of October 2023 and released on the 19th of November.

656
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:13.199
Next weekend, a new series of Doctor Who special sits our screens, and with it, a new Doctor Who flash cast in which we offer our half baked opinions on every new episode.

657
00:57:13.260 --> 00:57:18.179
It's called the 2nd great and bountiful human empire, and it launches on the 27th of November.

658
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.360
Find us at the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.com.

659
00:57:27.420 --> 00:57:28.739
Okay, what do we do?

660
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:29.699
How are we going?

661
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:31.380
We've got an hour and 5 minutes.

662
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:37.860
I think that we have an end where we can edit Maisie back into the beginning.

663
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:38.880
Do you know what I mean?

664
00:57:38.940 --> 00:57:42.840
Like talk about the thing, then talk about Maisie, then talk about the final scene.

665
00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:46.800
Like, I think that that's easily doable without sort of too much effort.

666
00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:50.579
Does anyone have anything that any closing remark?

667
00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:54.719
Probably be the tag, anything hilarious to say?

668
00:57:54.780 --> 00:57:55.679
Hilarious.

669
00:57:55.739 --> 00:57:57.719
I could go for a quick Wii.

670
00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:07.079
I mean, I did have a mild Todd experience, the mildest of Todd experiences with this, which I'm not prone to.

671
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:10.559
I think you may have mentioned. and he may have noticed.

672
00:58:10.619 --> 00:58:17.880
But in that, I thought I really wasn't going to like this and I found much to like in it.

673
00:58:17.940 --> 00:58:22.559
But like some of my comments on several other episodes of this season.

674
00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:26.400
I'm frustrated by the episode that might have been.

675
00:58:26.460 --> 00:58:31.320
So I sort of, I'm feeling, and that's, you know, obviously completely ridiculous.

676
00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:34.739
But I, I, I, I kind of, I, I wanted different.

677
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:40.679
I wanted a different set of episodes, basically, with broadly the same brush strokes, but just kind of the differences in how they unfold.

678
00:58:40.739 --> 00:58:43.679
That's one experience of a Doctor Who.

679
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:54.719
The one except the one exception being what we're about to have and that is one of the one of the best episodes slash stories in the entire history program.

680
00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:55.860
So, yeah.

681
00:58:55.980 --> 00:58:59.280
And I think it's only, I think you could only do it with Capaldi.

682
00:58:59.340 --> 00:59:01.320
I can't think of another actor who could.

683
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:04.619
He might have been able to do it with Matt, but I think...

684
00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:07.079
But again, the gravitating thing, yeah.

685
00:59:07.139 --> 00:59:09.960
It's the reason that the doctor can't be the good cop.

686
00:59:10.019 --> 00:59:13.139
We've talked about this, doctor. your face, your eyebrow.

687
00:59:15.300 --> 00:59:16.980
So neat.

688
00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:18.900
I've got one small thing.

689
00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:24.780
I looked up the Doctor Who magazine's done the 60th anniversary poll.

690
00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:27.000
They've done it per doctor this year.

691
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:32.280
I was wondering if anyone would like to guess where Face the Raven came out of 35 Capaldi's.

692
00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:33.059
Oh, it's like three.

693
00:59:33.059 --> 00:59:35.460
Do you know this or are we predicting this?

694
00:59:35.579 --> 00:59:37.320
No, I know this.

695
00:59:37.380 --> 00:59:38.699
I know the answer. prepped?

696
00:59:38.760 --> 00:59:39.539
I've done some prep.

697
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:41.400
Why don't I just walk up?

698
00:59:41.460 --> 00:59:43.920
It's the 2 part finale, isn't it?

699
00:59:43.980 --> 00:59:48.539
Like it's the, it's the, um, world enough in time in Dr. Falls.

700
00:59:48.539 --> 00:59:49.559
Is first, is it?

701
00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:52.800
Heaven's sent is up there as well.

702
00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:54.719
Heaven Sand is second.

703
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:55.320
Yeah.

704
00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:57.119
And Mummy on the RA Express.

705
00:59:57.780 --> 00:59:58.860
Oh, really?

706
00:59:58.920 --> 00:59:59.880
Yeah, I think that's a good one.

707
00:59:59.940 --> 01:00:01.320
Face the Raven.

708
01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:02.699
Face the Raven is 11th.

709
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:03.300
Oh, wow.

710
01:00:03.300 --> 01:00:06.239
And it's behind under the lake for the flood.

711
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.059
The Husbands of River Song.

712
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:10.199
Oh, well that's good.

713
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:13.199
Extremists.

714
01:00:13.260 --> 01:00:15.059
So I was surprised, actually.

715
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:18.360
I thought it might have ranked a little bit higher than some of those.