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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:12:43

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through

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Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast, all of whose hosts just discovered

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that somehow they have the number 12 tattooed somewhere on their

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body.

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I think it looks cool.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Simon.

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I'm Johnny.

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Well, over the past 3 years.

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We've seen Clara being kind, brittle, foolhardy, dishonest, funny

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and incandescently furious, but can she also be brave?

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Let's find out as she discovers that she must, like all of us, I

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guess, base the raven.

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So we start, once again, at the very end of a Doctor Who adventure

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just like we did, I think, in The Girl Who Died, and what's

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happening here?

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I guess what's happening here is the recurring idea that Clara is

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somehow getting too big for her boots, you know, that she's being

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more reckless.

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Uh, it's always a shame when the when the adventure they've just

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come from sounds really exciting.

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You think, man, I want to watch that adventure.

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Why, why didn't we film that today?

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But peppered through this season has been this idea that Clara is

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getting more and more daring and taking fewer and fewer

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precautions.

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And so you can't have that scene.

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That scene actually happens twice in Face the Raven, doesn't it?

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Because there's the beginning scene where the doctor's giving her

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side eye because she's been taking too many risks.

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And then it happens later on when she's headfirst out of the

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TARDIS looking at it.

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So we are really getting that idea reinforced again and again and

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again.

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Yeah, in fact, there's some dialogue between Rigsy and the doctor

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where Rigsy comments on how foolhardy she is and the doctor says

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it's something like a known issue or something.

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It's a thing that happens.

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And Murray also gives her the doctor's music when that happens.

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So as she's hanging out of the TARDIS.

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A little bit like Matt Smith in Day of the Doctor, she does get

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the Capoldi Doctor's theme music there as well.

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So the whole show is kind of saying that. and sort of leading up

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to it, I think.

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I mean, the adventure sounds fun, doesn't it?

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There's a sentient plan that the doctor has to marry, you know, a

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whole heap of stuff like that.

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And the other thing is that Clara is delighting in how clever she

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is.

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So she's saying, you know, I saved your life.

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If you hadn't been for me, you would have been done like this.

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And I think this feeds into this sort of uncomfortable

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relationship, I think that fandom has with Clara, that she's

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trying to be the doctor, and there's something weirdly patriarchal

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about this too, that we're not really comfortable with her

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stretching her wings a bit and trying to behave in the way that

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the doctor is behaving.

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And then on top of that, she's really rather proud of the whole

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thing.

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She seems to get not just a sort of adrenaline buzz from it, but a

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kind of self-esteem boost from it as well too.

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And I think there's something in that, which has rubbed people up

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the wrong way throughout the thing.

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And I'm not sure how I feel about that.

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I think it's a little bit unfair to have the female character in

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the show be the one who is trying things that the doctor does.

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And for us to have a slightly disapproving lens over that.

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I mean, there are some other things that she does that are doctor

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ish here too.

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She's the one who does the exposition about what a trap street is

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and I think that seems very striking that does seem to be the sort

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of speech that the doctor should be giving.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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And I love how the doctor's reaction to that is basically like

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well, you know, I don't think it's going to be a cartographer's

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trick that is going to solve this and then immediately says, but

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we look for one in real life.

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Yeah.

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And so he's kind of doing the 12th doctor-ish thing and saying, no

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that's a silly idea before turning around. like, no, actually it's

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great.

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Well done.

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Well, but he also has the line, you know, it's a missing street

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and you humans immediately decide that it's a copyright

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violation.

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There's no right for the end.

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On the topic of Clara developing this reckless streak.

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Yeah, I do think there was this pervasive sense of, oh no, she

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shouldn't do that because that's what the doctor does.

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Whereas at the time, what I remember thinking is it felt like we

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were going in a direction of she's doing this because she's lost

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Danny and the show is presenting.

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This is an unhealthy way to cope with your grief to seek out

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risk.

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And it is a recognised thing that some people do.

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And I remember the only problem I had with it is she is punished

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by the narrative for being like the doctor.

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And it's a conscious decision.

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It was one that Stephen Moffatt developed, but also Sarah Dollar

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the writer of this episode, was behind.

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But I still feel uncomfortable with it, but I feel uncomfortable

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with it in the same way I feel uncomfortable about Donna's mind

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wipe in that, oh, this is highly effective drama in that it's

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making me feel things, but I don't like it.

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Yeah, I do think that that's the problem.

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And she is like the doctor, you know, right from, I mean, she

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appears in the opening credits of Death in Heaven, doesn't she?

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It's her face rather than Capaldi's face.

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And the relationship's been presented as an addiction and it

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creates problems in Danny and Clara's relationship, it causes her

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to sneak around and be dishonest and all sorts of things like

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that.

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I think we've said before that that central relationship in the

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show, the one that we all kind of aspire to have.

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I don't know about you, but I was always...

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Of course, 100%. yeah.

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Specifically Bonnie Langford for me.

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Well, I was mostly Liz Slade.

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Yes, I was mostly Liz Slade, yes.

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Like Russell T. Davis.

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I think, you know, Clara starts out a little bit like Sarah Jane.

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But actually, she ends up more like Mel, I would say, because she

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has a sort of relationship with the doctor, where she tells him

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what to do quite a lot of the time.

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And so she's his teacher.

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She's his coach, and it gets to the point in the girl who died

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where she's not even that concerned about the main peril of the

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episode, because she just knows the doctor is going to get there

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eventually.

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And she knows it all she has to do is sit there and just sort of

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coach him along till he gets to that and then everything is going

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to be all right.

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Um, that has a sort of mel like feel.

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I think.

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And she kind of tries to play that trick again in Face the Raven

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in that she takes this enormous risk mid-episode.

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So confident is she, that everything is going to work out all

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right because the doctor is by her side and that's the bit.

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That's the bit that backfires.

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Yeah.

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I'm not sure about the fact that the story, the plot punishes her

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for being like the doctor, because what the story is punishing her

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for is being complacent, and that's what you get in, the girl who

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died and so on. and what you see at the beginning of this episode

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as well. is this kind of relaxed complacency that it's all right

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all going to be all right.

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The doctor's going to solve everything and we're all going to get

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away with, so it doesn't really matter what I do.

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So it's like the doctor looks like he's being reckless, but

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actually he always knows what he's doing underneath or at least he

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takes calculated risks.

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Whereas Clara is starting to take reckless risks.

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And I think that's what she's being punished for.

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But I think because it's the Moffat era.

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It is kind of presented as well as Clara knowing the rules of a

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Doctor Who story.

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And so she and she actually recognises the individual beats in the

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girl who died.

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You know, she spots the moment where the doctor has his final

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proper good plan and she knows that he hasn't come up with that

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yet and so on.

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And so it's similar here, and the show actually does it here

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because then you get Capaldi at the end, and we'll talk about this

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later, saying, have you ever heard of anyone who managed to stop

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me?

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And so the doctor himself knows that he always wins in a Doctor

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Who episode and he turns that into a thread at the end of the

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episode.

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And we have had that before.

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I think Matt Smith's doctor does that sort of grandstanding as

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well.

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And Tennant, as far back as silence in the library, is also kind

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of saying, there have been a lot of Doctor Who stories to the

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Vashta Narada, and I've won all of them. back off.

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Yeah.

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You even have a copy of the wheel in space in this library.

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It's that well funded.

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I think it's hard to talk about Clara being punished for her role

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in this story, in the conclusion, without referencing Hell Bent

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because eventually, eventually she is going to become a doctor

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like figure.

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She is going to travel the universe with an irregular heartbeat

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and a companion and they're going to go and have adventures the

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long way around.

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So, in a way, this is almost a bit of a feint, in fact, because

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we're the full arc of this story, she is going to end up in a very

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different place in a few episodes time.

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And it's not impossible to have a doctor-like character as a

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companion. like River has shown us that.

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And Romana has shown us that back in the day.

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It's something about Clara being human.

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And I think, Simon, I think you've put your finger on it where you

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say it's this, she's, she's doing one particular thing, a

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particular style of recklessness, which is the problem, which the

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other characters that we've seen behave in a doctor-like manner

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perhaps don't do to such an extent.

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I just want to also comment, though, about the what it actually

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does to what it feels like to watch these episodes.

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And that's, I think, where I start to not like where it goes.

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I don't mind per se, this is a sort of a plot point, but I

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actually start to find the whole thing quite tiresome.

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And I think it does take away something about how an episode

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should be.

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Yes, a companion should always have faith that the doctor can

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solve it, but there's something about what Clara's response is

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throughout this season that makes me not find the episodes

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entertaining, not as entertaining as, I don't feel there's as much

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a sense of risk anymore because everyone's kind of bit too blasé

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about, oh, we'll just get out of this, and so it doesn't really

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matter.

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So I think it actually does actually affect my enjoyment of the

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episodes, if that makes sense.

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I'm not really expressing that right.

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No, I think it's, and I could be wrong, please correct me if I'm

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being presumptuous, but that whole kind of meta narrative thing

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where Clara is aware on some level that she's in the Doctor Who TV

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series.

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And so we're always going to win.

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And we know that.

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I mean, there is supposed to be a sense of risk as far as the

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characters are concerned.

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The characters need to think that there's a sense of risk.

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Yeah, but we obviously are in the comfortable position of knowing

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that the doctor will win and that's part of the pleasure of the

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show for us, but that, because the new series is based not so much

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on the old series as it is on our experience of the old series.

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The characters are a little bit more aware.

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And it's a Moffat thing, really, rather than an R2 game.

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It's not throughout the whole new series.

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It's just, it's just what's happening at this period.

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I think.

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But I think Moffat does do that a bit.

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Yeah, Simon, I'm, I'm kind of with you on that in that, I think

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it's a symptom of this series in particular that goes right the

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way back to the same old, same old promotional material.

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The production team is sort of saying to the audience, you know

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what to expect from us.

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And it does remove a little bit of the drama.

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And I think there is an element to having the best of both

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worlds.

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You know, if we talk about Liz Laden again in, say, the seeds of

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00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:21.600
doom, she has every faith that the doctor will get them out of

247
00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:26.519
this situation, but I'm thinking sort of on the Antarctic-based

248
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:26.879
episodes.

249
00:13:26.940 --> 00:13:30.960
She has every faith doctor will get them out of this situation.

250
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:35.580
But she still sells the gravity of the situation in her

251
00:13:35.580 --> 00:13:36.120
performance.

252
00:13:36.539 --> 00:13:41.580
I think what probably helps here is bringing back Rigsy, who we

253
00:13:41.580 --> 00:13:47.039
really loved last series, and so he's the one saying, no, no, no

254
00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:50.220
like don't take the tattoo off me because it's not going to work

255
00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.759
out well.

256
00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:51.539
Yeah.

257
00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:55.799
You know, he's the one who doesn't know the rules of Doctor Who

258
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:59.700
and is the sensible person screaming at the screen watching a

259
00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:01.379
horror film saying, don't go upstairs.

260
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.659
Don't investigate the noise.

261
00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.460
Go back to the party.

262
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.419
Yeah, it's one of those situations of, oh, this is really terrific

263
00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:12.899
drama, but I don't feel the danger as much.

264
00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.120
I'm not, as say, the idiot's lantern.

265
00:14:15.179 --> 00:14:16.440
Yeah, I'm not being drawn in.

266
00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:17.759
And you're absolutely right.

267
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:20.580
It's like, it's like the difference between saying the doctor will

268
00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:24.360
get us out of this and only the doctor can get us out of this.

269
00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:25.559
Do you know what I mean?

270
00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:29.340
It's sort of like, you still have to, as I think, Nathan, you've

271
00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:32.399
said it right in that, in that the characters can't be, we can be

272
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.259
aware that we know that there's going to be another episode next

273
00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:35.700
week in another season next year.

274
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:39.539
And so therefore, the lead character will survive, one in one form

275
00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:40.019
or another.

276
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:41.279
But the characters can't know that.

277
00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:45.720
And I think I think you can get away with that on a one here or

278
00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.419
there or every now and again, but when it sort of starts becoming

279
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:51.840
this recurring theme throughout an entire season, that's when it

280
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:52.559
starts to lose me.

281
00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:55.620
And I think that's my main problem with the season, I think, is I

282
00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:57.659
start to, I start to kind of lose interest.

283
00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:59.100
I'm not being drawn in.

284
00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:02.340
Although, to be fair, she does get killed in the episode.

285
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:03.240
Do you know what I mean?

286
00:15:03.299 --> 00:15:05.940
There is a genuine risk and she is action.

287
00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:09.419
And that's the payoff, but we'll come to that long drawn out

288
00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:11.100
sequence a bit later, I suspect.

289
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:16.500
I was trying to remember if I if I knew whether Clara was coming

290
00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:19.259
back on 1st viewing this episode.

291
00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:24.779
And I think I may have seen, I may have seen an image of her in

292
00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:29.340
the diner, the diner uniform, so I think maybe I kind of knew.

293
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:33.600
Even if I didn't, I suspect the chances of Jenna Coleman not

294
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:35.100
turning up in the next 2 episodes.

295
00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.919
I think I would have thought she's going to turn up again.

296
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:42.360
And this comes back to whether the episode is trying to break the

297
00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:46.259
mould of a Doctor Who episode and then whether it succeeds.

298
00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:49.500
So it does, I think, try to break the mould of the episode in a, it

299
00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:52.620
does that thing where a character dies, you're getting the sense

300
00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:55.019
that time is running out, you're getting the sense things are not

301
00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:58.559
going to work out the same. as they did every other time we've

302
00:15:58.559 --> 00:15:59.519
been in this situation.

303
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:04.080
And yet, we've seen so many characters in the new series of Doctor

304
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.139
Who turn up again after seemingly fatal incidents have occurred to

305
00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:14.519
them that it is hard now to break that rule of the new series, the

306
00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.220
new series that, if someone can be remembered, it can come back.

307
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:22.799
That rule is now so entrenched that it's hard to find the jeopardy

308
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.299
in these characters storylines.

309
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:24.840
Exactly.

310
00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:27.120
I, you say, Nathan, she dies at the end.

311
00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:30.240
I never thought when I was watching it the 1st time, that that was

312
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.519
the death of the character, that she had actually does.

313
00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:35.159
I just thought it was like, yet another one of those things where

314
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.080
oh, actually, no, it wasn't a disintegrator.

315
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.820
It was a teleport and she's somewhere else.

316
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:39.659
I mean, you know what I mean?

317
00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:40.620
So that's what I'm saying.

318
00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:44.639
The show has always done that, though, hasn't it?

319
00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:51.000
And like when Billy Piper is shot by the Android in Bad Wolf, I

320
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:54.779
don't think we think she's dead, I think we know that she isn't.

321
00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:56.519
And that sort of stuff happens all the time.

322
00:16:56.580 --> 00:17:00.539
Like Sarah's weeping over the doctor at the end of Pyramids.

323
00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:01.080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

324
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:02.820
But are we supposed to life?

325
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.400
Aren't we supposed to think that the character's been killed in

326
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:06.359
this episode?

327
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:07.259
I think we are.

328
00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:07.859
I was surprised.

329
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:09.839
Like we're supposed to think it's earth shock.

330
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:11.220
Yeah I didn't expect it.

331
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.180
And I think killing the companion is a bad idea on the whole.

332
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:19.200
I think it doesn't work in Earthshock and we just chose the most

333
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:23.460
disposable companion that no one really likes and then we all get

334
00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:27.299
over it in about 30 seconds. including the car. that's right.

335
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.039
That's what makes.

336
00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:31.380
I think that's what makes Earthshock work is that we never really

337
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:34.140
like that guy in the 1st place and now he's dead.

338
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.980
And I think that's what really, that's where the real kicker is.

339
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:39.119
Yeah, except that we're all over it.

340
00:17:39.180 --> 00:17:42.059
I mean, you know, Adrich wouldn't want us to mourn, Simon.

341
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.039
We should go after the great exhibition.

342
00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:45.359
You know.

343
00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:49.740
So it's kind of the, it's crappy.

344
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:54.240
And then I think that it was really gross in mind warp because you

345
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.779
have the companion of Perry who is constantly being mauled by

346
00:17:57.779 --> 00:18:01.500
people and exist basically to have her rape, you know.

347
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.859
Yeah, it's all just so rapey and creepy and that's really

348
00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:05.519
terrible.

349
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:08.640
So I think it's generally a bad idea.

350
00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:13.380
And I think the surprising thing is that she has been in it as the

351
00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:15.839
companion for longer than anyone else.

352
00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:21.059
She's the longest serving companion in the new series by this

353
00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:22.140
point.

354
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:26.160
Are you talking about episodes or just...

355
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:28.200
So, well, no, I think in episodes.

356
00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:31.619
No one's done 2.5 seasons before her have they?

357
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.640
Well, Amy.

358
00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:34.200
How many did she do?

359
00:18:34.259 --> 00:18:35.579
She does 2.5 as well.

360
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.099
Well, her half is a shorter half, admittedly.

361
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:41.039
Yeah, you've got to take into account, shorter episodes, a longer

362
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.700
episodes, but I think someone did the maths and it's like Amy

363
00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:49.799
Clara, Jamie, and Yaz and Tegan have similar tenures.

364
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.059
And I think...

365
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.160
Pantheon...

366
00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:54.599
Minutes on screen.

367
00:18:54.660 --> 00:19:00.000
Yeah, and I think I think Clara just beats out Amy due to like the

368
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.839
longer series 7B half and the extra specials and what have you.

369
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.859
So you can imagine, like, it's not like killing Katerina, right?

370
00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:14.400
It's more significant and there are kids watching and the death is

371
00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:15.240
pretty brutal.

372
00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:21.119
And what we get is exactly what we expect from Moffatt, where the

373
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:27.720
story goes wrong in that she's killed and in that her death is a

374
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:32.759
fridging in the sense that it's a female character whose death

375
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:38.940
exists primarily to make the male protagonist have the feels.

376
00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:40.680
And boy, does he have the feels?

377
00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:41.640
I tell you what.

378
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:45.180
So that's a problem.

379
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.420
And I think Moffat is aware of the problem and I think that the

380
00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:52.920
rest of the season, we have, you know, the doctor hit absolute

381
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.880
rock bottom in the next episode, but then we have the problem

382
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:57.480
fixed.

383
00:19:57.539 --> 00:20:02.700
It's no longer a fridging because we're actually centring Clara in

384
00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:03.480
the final episode.

385
00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:07.200
Clara is the character who knows what's going on and the doctor

386
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:07.859
doesn't.

387
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:13.200
The story is being told to Clara, and she's the one who we

388
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.819
discover is in control of that entire situation, and she's no

389
00:20:17.819 --> 00:20:18.359
longer dead.

390
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.799
So Moffat does what he does so often, which is that things reach

391
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.019
an absolute low point before they get better.

392
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:26.640
That's just normal in drama.

393
00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:30.299
I think the absolute low point, though, is that the actual

394
00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:34.319
storytelling goes wrong in Moffat and that it gets fixed at the

395
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:34.559
end.

396
00:20:34.619 --> 00:20:38.640
And so this is pretty standard sort of moffetry, I think.

397
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:42.960
And I think he is aware of what's going on with this, that why

398
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.440
this death isn't the sort of thing that should happen on Doctor

399
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:46.920
Who.

400
00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:51.299
And to add to that in Hellbent.

401
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.019
Clara, of course, has to correct the doctor's behaviour, yeah. to

402
00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:55.980
set the story right.

403
00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.000
She does have an important role to play as an agent of change in

404
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.140
that episode.

405
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.839
And I think it's also interesting in that episode, how she keeps

406
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.559
trying to tell people that she's okay with the status quo and

407
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:08.579
she's okay with how she is.

408
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.460
She does it about 2 or 3 times in that episode.

409
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.980
And eventually she has to say, why won't anyone listen to me when

410
00:21:13.980 --> 00:21:14.460
I'm saying?

411
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.799
What do we think about Maisie Williams in this episode?

412
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.720
Uh, look, I think she's really great.

413
00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:36.539
I remember at the time there was sort of disappointment around her

414
00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:39.000
portrayal because I think everyone was just expecting her to be

415
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.779
Aria from Game of Thrones, but she's an actor.

416
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:44.160
She's giving a different performance.

417
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.460
And I think it's subtly different enough from what we've seen

418
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:47.880
before.

419
00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:52.680
And she's got like such self-assurance and such confidence until

420
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:53.819
everything goes wrong.

421
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:58.559
It's hard to act in that scene with Jenna and Peter doing their

422
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:02.039
thing, but I think she really holds her own in that final scene.

423
00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:05.819
I'll just sort of echo what I said in the woman who lived episode

424
00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:09.779
which was, I'm not 100% convinced she's that great an actor.

425
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:14.460
I think she's fine and I think she was very engaging in Game of

426
00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:17.759
Thrones partly because the character in it all worked.

427
00:22:17.819 --> 00:22:19.740
And I don't think it's typecasting.

428
00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:23.039
I don't think it's the fact that, yeah, I'm imagining her as Aria

429
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:24.480
Stark and that's all I can see.

430
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:27.900
I don't think it's that, but I've never been convinced in all the

431
00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:29.220
episodes she's in this season.

432
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:32.220
I'm just not 100% convinced of the performance.

433
00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:37.319
So I watched the girl who died and the woman who lived and then

434
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.039
faced the raven in that order so that I could see what happens to

435
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:44.759
a shoulder or slash me across those 3 episodes.

436
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:47.519
And it's a really good way to watch, actually.

437
00:22:47.579 --> 00:22:50.519
And then I watched Hellbent after...

438
00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:54.779
So I really got a sense of 4 quite different performances, actually

439
00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:58.619
from her, which is what she's called upon to do.

440
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:01.019
Like she's called the one to be distinctly different in each of

441
00:23:01.019 --> 00:23:02.099
those 4 episodes.

442
00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:05.460
And it's, I think it's a really difficult job she's been given.

443
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:09.900
And I think she acquits herself pretty well, actually, in doing

444
00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:10.740
those different things.

445
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:12.359
Like if you go back to the girl who died.

446
00:23:12.420 --> 00:23:15.660
She really is playing a teenager in that and she's got a whole

447
00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:19.079
sort of body language and a whole sort of mannerisms, which is

448
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.019
very different to when you get to face the raven.

449
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.700
If there's something that doesn't quite land about it.

450
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.819
For me, it's, she doesn't seem to have a sort of gravitat in her

451
00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:34.859
in her, um, in her physical performance, and particularly when you

452
00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:37.619
get to this episode where she's in control of this world.

453
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.839
I think she does it pretty well, but there's something about her

454
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.839
something about her stature or the way she's delivering her lines

455
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.000
which doesn't quite land.

456
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:48.180
And I think the other thing, I keep thinking about a shoulder

457
00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:53.519
about how many times we've seen Moffatt, do a woman as a sort of

458
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:57.059
complex space-time event, which is popping up in the doctor's

459
00:23:57.059 --> 00:23:57.539
history.

460
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:01.019
You know, it's getting pretty crowded in Dragonfire and the 5

461
00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:03.900
doctors with people popping up in the background in photos or

462
00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:04.920
clips, you know?

463
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:09.539
So if you think about river, if you think about the impossible

464
00:24:09.539 --> 00:24:12.420
girl and you think about a shilder, there's a pattern here about

465
00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:17.279
women as puzzle boxes and people who confound the doctor and who

466
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:18.720
keep peering in times of his life.

467
00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:23.160
And I, you know, I think there's also something unsettling about

468
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.900
the doctor in a Schilders relationship.

469
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.339
So, it's not uncommon, you know, in TV, Doctor Who, in books

470
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:32.160
Doctor Who, in all sorts of things to have these sort of morally

471
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.859
ambiguous characters who are sometimes helping the doctor and

472
00:24:34.859 --> 00:24:36.299
sometimes at odds with the doctor.

473
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:39.900
And I think, I think that bit is okay.

474
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:45.660
But I've never been sold by the reason why the doctor couldn't

475
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:48.420
have just rescued her in the woman who lived, as she was

476
00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:49.380
requesting him to do.

477
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.299
So take me away from all this.

478
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:55.440
And it reminds me, Nathan, of your, uh, the, the phrase that keeps

479
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.420
coming back to me about this is space reason.

480
00:24:57.779 --> 00:25:00.839
You know, there's actually, it's not particularly convincing that

481
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:05.339
this very powerful figure, this very powerful man shouldn't do

482
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:07.440
what his friend is asking him to do.

483
00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:08.640
His friend's asking him for help.

484
00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:11.940
And he constantly says, no, it's not the right time or no, it

485
00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:15.359
wouldn't work out very well or, you know, insert unconvincing

486
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:15.839
reasons.

487
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.480
Well, the unconvincing reason, sorry to butt in there, I think, is

488
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:21.660
usually presented as the doctor feels that the person in question

489
00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:24.839
has some kind of moral failing, which means that they deserve to

490
00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:25.319
go with him.

491
00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:28.680
And I sort of felt like at the end of the woman who lived, that

492
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.799
that was an inadequate reason because he's not giving her enough

493
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.019
of the benefit of the doubt for the kind of life she's had to

494
00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:36.539
leave for the last half many 100 years. you know what I mean?

495
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:37.740
Completely by that.

496
00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:41.039
I mean, what that episode says is that he doesn't take her because

497
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.660
the 2 of them are the same and so that's a problem.

498
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:47.700
But he doesn't need to take her.

499
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.299
No.

500
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:50.940
He doesn't, he just needs to take her away from that period of

501
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:52.559
history so she can live a better life.

502
00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:58.619
She does, in fact, though, get to she does seem to have more

503
00:25:58.619 --> 00:25:59.519
purpose here.

504
00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:04.259
There is that kind of, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

505
00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:07.740
She's a bit distanced and a little bit, you know, she cares about

506
00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:08.220
something.

507
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:10.619
She has something that she cares about doing.

508
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:13.680
And she cares about people in the way that me didn't.

509
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:17.700
And so her interaction with the doctor has done something, has

510
00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:20.460
given her a renewed sense of purpose.

511
00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:27.119
When we did the Woman Who Lived episode, Richard mentioned that

512
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:32.099
Rufus Hound and Maisie Williams had been given cameras and were

513
00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:36.119
recording each other, and I went and watched some of that, and I

514
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:37.319
was just so shocked.

515
00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:40.859
Like Maisie Williams is 17, I think, at this point.

516
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:41.759
Is she?

517
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.819
She's really young and it's why she's so babyfaced.

518
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.160
And she's so girly.

519
00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:49.200
It's so adorable.

520
00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:50.220
Like, it's terribly cute.

521
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.579
Rufus Hound says to her, oh, this is your 1st TV, isn't it?

522
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:54.599
And she says, yes, you know.

523
00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:56.160
And he explains to her.

524
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:59.279
This is a mark and that's where she has to stand.

525
00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:02.460
And like it's really funny, but she's so sweet.

526
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:04.619
Like, it's really surprising.

527
00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:10.019
And, you know, seeing her like, she's not carefree in that 1st

528
00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:10.500
episode.

529
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:14.940
She loves the boys, you know, the Vikings who come back safe and

530
00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:17.460
stuff and she loves them and he's loved by them.

531
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:21.180
But other than that, she's kind of an austere figure and she's

532
00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:24.420
really sort of distant and serious and stuff.

533
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:28.980
And it was just funny seeing how different that is from herself at

534
00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:29.339
this point.

535
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:31.680
Yeah, yeah, but just take care of what Johnny said before.

536
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:34.920
I think she does lack a certain stature to be able to then fully

537
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:35.400
carry it off.

538
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:36.960
And I think that's what I'm trying to say before about.

539
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:38.400
I'm not convinced she's the best actress.

540
00:27:38.460 --> 00:27:39.480
Maybe that's unfair.

541
00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.400
I think she's a little bit miscast for this.

542
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:43.740
I think they're too excited about having her from Game of Thrones

543
00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:47.220
in this and they've got this role and I think it needed...

544
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.500
I didn't realise she was that young still.

545
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:51.900
So I think she, I think it needed someone who was just a little

546
00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:54.059
bit older to carry it maybe.

547
00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:59.279
I do like the kind of contrast between that sort of chubby-cheeked

548
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:03.539
baby-faced appearance that she has and, you know, how powerful

549
00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:05.819
she's become clearly at this point.

550
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.119
And then seeing her at the end of the universe in 2 weeks' time is

551
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:10.440
putting a coat of all as well.

552
00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:14.099
She's terrific in that scene at the end of the universe too.

553
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.059
And I really do sense another step change in her performance from

554
00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:18.539
there again.

555
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.500
You know, they've made a conscious decision to cast someone young

556
00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:25.980
who's going to age across in the narrative.

557
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:28.859
And I suppose the other option would have been to cast someone

558
00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:31.619
older and to get them to be younger at the beginning.

559
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:33.359
And I think the risk is the same.

560
00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:37.559
You know, I think it's a difficult thing to do whichever way you

561
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:38.099
choose to go.

562
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:43.680
I think that change between just an actual girl, like a 17 year

563
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:47.819
old, uh, you know, who the doctor does this weird thing too, and

564
00:28:47.819 --> 00:28:52.140
now she just sort of lives forever, and she's eternally 17, And so

565
00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:56.940
there's this weird dissonance between her appearance and her kind

566
00:28:56.940 --> 00:28:57.539
of demeanour.

567
00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:58.559
Yeah.

568
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:03.599
She gets a nice line in the woman who lived, incidentally, where

569
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.500
she's talking about Clara, and they're stuck in, they're stuck in

570
00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:08.759
a chimney for story reasons.

571
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:12.359
I can't remember at the moment, but she says she says to the

572
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:15.240
doctor about Clara, but there's something bad is going to happen

573
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:16.980
to her and she says she'll blow away like smoke.

574
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:20.700
And actually, actually is a reference, I think, forward to face

575
00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:21.359
the raven.

576
00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:25.200
He only saves a shilder because he's terrified of Clara dying and

577
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.380
he even says that in The Girl Who Died.

578
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:33.059
So, you know, we've been seeding Clara dying and Clara's death has

579
00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:36.660
been bound up with a shilde all the way through the season, I

580
00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:36.960
think.

581
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:41.519
So what about when he says, Captain Jack, he says, he'll get

582
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:42.660
around to you eventually.

583
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.740
What are you saying, doctor?

584
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:48.839
No wonder he got cancelled.

585
00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:01.859
It's interesting like with how effective that death is.

586
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:06.119
And, you know, it's not a transmat beam, it's not a glowing effect

587
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:07.500
or anything like that.

588
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.259
It's very unequivocally physical.

589
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.180
You know what I mean?

590
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.400
And there is a body at the end of it.

591
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.619
And we've already seen someone else die like this.

592
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.220
What's amazing to me is reading up on this episode.

593
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:24.180
Sarah Dollard basically pitched for episode seven.

594
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:28.559
Basically pitched for a one off story, unconnected from the arc

595
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.119
pretty much the same structure.

596
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.819
So there, it was called Trap Street.

597
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:37.980
It was still the sort of alien refugee camp, but the mayor was not

598
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:39.119
a shielder.

599
00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:42.779
It was an original character, and the plot revolved around.

600
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:44.400
There was a Santarian in the camp.

601
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:47.039
So Dan Starkey gets another paycheque.

602
00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:50.279
Um, and Clara even walks in and distracts.

603
00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:51.539
What the hell are you doing here?

604
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:54.059
And he's like, no, I'm Commander Scan.

605
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:59.579
And what it is, he's actually a plant for the Santarans and is

606
00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:03.420
planning an invasion of Earth and masterminds the whole situation

607
00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:08.579
to destabilise the camp so that the Santarans can use it as a

608
00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:08.940
base.

609
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.160
And so it's just a basic who done it.

610
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.299
And then after getting the script, Moffatt went, well, if we put a

611
00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:19.200
shoulder in this and I've been talking about when to kill Clara

612
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.619
this season, if we do it just before the finale, hey, Sarah, how

613
00:31:22.619 --> 00:31:25.859
would you like to kill off a companion and use Maisie Williams and

614
00:31:25.859 --> 00:31:28.140
Sarah said, yes, please.

615
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:32.579
I think I'm really preferring that episode we didn't have, actually

616
00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:36.059
because I think there's so much interesting stuff in there that is

617
00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:39.960
effectively just brushed over in this and that's one of the issues

618
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:41.220
I have with the episodes.

619
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.859
I think there's so many interesting there's so much interesting

620
00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:46.500
potential with this refugee camp and what you could do with it.

621
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.920
And basically, I just think a much better story could be

622
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:53.039
constructed in it and that one sounds like it'll do.

623
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:53.519
Thank you very much.

624
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:55.259
See, I feel the opposite way.

625
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.240
I feel like surprised me.

626
00:31:57.299 --> 00:31:57.839
Yeah.

627
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:02.700
Like as I'm watching it, as the death of Clara comes in 10 minutes

628
00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:06.660
from the end, it's like a full quarter of the episode is that

629
00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:07.740
scene.

630
00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:10.740
I kind of think, well, that's okay. okay.

631
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:16.680
I don't think, though, that, like, what it is, instead we get an

632
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:19.859
alien invasion, which are just sort of 10 a penny.

633
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:23.279
It always surprised me that Trap Street was pitched as a

634
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.160
standalone story because I just didn't think that there was enough

635
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:27.299
there.

636
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:29.700
And I think what we do get.

637
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:32.400
Like, I think it's an inventive idea.

638
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:36.359
I think it's really it is really... a very inventive idea.

639
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:36.960
Do you know that?

640
00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:37.500
I love that.

641
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:38.099
I love that idea.

642
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:38.880
I think it's great.

643
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.259
But it's a backdrop.

644
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:43.920
It only being allowed to be a backdrop to what they want to do

645
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.920
this piece of self-indulgence that they want to go through

646
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:47.279
basically.

647
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:49.740
But I mean, I'm not sure that it's a piece of self-indulgence.

648
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:54.420
I mean, it is, you know, when companions leave in the new series.

649
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.200
It is always traumatic.

650
00:32:58.380 --> 00:32:59.759
Yeah.

651
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.180
And, you know, things like doomsday and journeys end and stuff.

652
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:06.359
And I think the show can do that and can have that.

653
00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:11.640
And when we were watching it as children, the companions leaving

654
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:16.859
was never quite that, but that's how we felt about it.

655
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:19.980
Perhaps with the exception of Joe, when Joe leaves and the

656
00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:21.839
doctor's really broken up about that.

657
00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:25.140
And Joe is probably signposted through the relationship with

658
00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:25.440
Cliff.

659
00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:30.599
I think the Trap Street stuff is, as you say, it's a backdrop to

660
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:31.140
what happens.

661
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:35.339
And it's an unusually rich and interesting backdrop, actually, and

662
00:33:35.339 --> 00:33:38.700
it does feel like there's a Doctor Who story there, which could be

663
00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:43.140
played out, but it's a sign of, it's a sign of confidence in the

664
00:33:43.140 --> 00:33:46.079
series that it's prepared to just let it be a backdrop.

665
00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:48.900
It's also a massive diversion as well too.

666
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:52.920
So, there's actually the murder mystery within the Trap Street is

667
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:55.559
of no relevance to what happens in the episode.

668
00:33:55.619 --> 00:33:56.759
It's not even necessary.

669
00:33:56.819 --> 00:33:58.259
It's not even a murder.

670
00:33:58.380 --> 00:33:58.799
She's fine.

671
00:33:58.859 --> 00:34:01.740
Yes, yes, yes.

672
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.460
Shelda could have grabbed the doctor the moment he walked into the

673
00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:06.299
trap street.

674
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:10.139
And so it has no impact on the plot.

675
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:16.199
And that does make it feel a bit off putting that we've put so

676
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:19.320
much time and energy into world building of this place.

677
00:34:19.380 --> 00:34:22.139
And I think that's done pretty well pretty quickly.

678
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:26.460
You get a sense of somewhere, which is, uh, which is an

679
00:34:26.460 --> 00:34:28.800
interesting and exciting place to be, but we're not going to spend

680
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:29.519
much time there.

681
00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:33.059
And then when the episode ends, we never hear of it again.

682
00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:35.159
It's not revisited.

683
00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:39.480
Presumably Rigsy gets out of Trap Street with his memory wiped or

684
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:43.920
something and everyone goes back to being a cyberman with a human

685
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.099
face or something or, you know, presumably life goes on in Trap

686
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:47.460
Street.

687
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:51.719
But I find that a really common thing in the Moffat era and is

688
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:56.880
that ideas are introduced or scenarios are introduced and then

689
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:58.559
dumped relatively quickly.

690
00:34:58.619 --> 00:35:01.500
Sometimes mid-episodes, sometimes at the end of the episode

691
00:35:01.500 --> 00:35:05.579
because they've just been a way of getting us in to the story and

692
00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:07.619
getting us to tell the story Moffatt really wants to.

693
00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:09.900
I think that's a nice way of looking at it.

694
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:11.820
But I think it's a generous way of looking at it.

695
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:16.320
I think that it's more a question of that, you know, whatever

696
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.599
whether it's time pressures, last minute changes, and then things

697
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:21.840
are left over from things that were taken out, then there's this

698
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:23.579
bit of detritus that's been left behind.

699
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:25.619
And I suppose what I'm saying is I think you give them too much

700
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:28.320
credit in terms of how these things actually unfold.

701
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:31.079
I guess I'm not trying to give them credit.

702
00:35:31.139 --> 00:35:33.539
I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to explain what I'm fair

703
00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:33.960
enough.

704
00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:35.519
Really, is all I'm trying to do.

705
00:35:35.579 --> 00:35:37.559
I don't quite know how to feel about it.

706
00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:42.239
I'd actually, I actually wouldn't swap out the conclusion of the

707
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:46.079
episode for us to tie up some loose ends around Trap Street.

708
00:35:46.139 --> 00:35:48.539
I think we've moved on from that relatively.

709
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:53.880
I mean, I think the involvement of the time lords and Clara's

710
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:58.199
behaviour just come in and break that story and now we're going to

711
00:35:58.199 --> 00:35:58.739
do something else.

712
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.280
I don't think the story would benefit from having a less rich and

713
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:04.920
interesting backdrop against which to have this drama.

714
00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:06.179
Oh, I'm not saying.

715
00:36:06.179 --> 00:36:12.360
And so I think that because the forces are so great that warp this

716
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:12.840
story.

717
00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:13.800
Do you know what I mean?

718
00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:16.320
I think the time lords can come in and turn the narrative around

719
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:20.099
or do something really odd to the narrative and that's what's

720
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:21.480
happening here, I think.

721
00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:25.679
I think that the original version of Trap Street might have been

722
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:26.159
interesting.

723
00:36:26.219 --> 00:36:29.460
And I think Sarah Dollard is really pretty damn great.

724
00:36:29.579 --> 00:36:33.599
And her next episode is also pretty good as well.

725
00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:37.079
And she writes very, very well for Capoldi's doctor.

726
00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:38.639
I don't know.

727
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:45.239
I mean, I actually quite like the scene, even before we know that

728
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:50.400
Clara's going to die, the way that things start falling apart

729
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:54.960
before that happens, the way the story, as a murder mystery just

730
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:58.260
breaks down because the victim's alive.

731
00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:03.420
Like, I think that that's actually, that is actually pretty great

732
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:04.320
and pretty interesting.

733
00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:08.760
And, you know, that backdrop is a real place and a really

734
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:13.559
interesting place and I think it is well realised and I'm kind of

735
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:17.340
just content to have that and we move on to something else.

736
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.719
I think my issue is the way the sort of the death sequence unfolds

737
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:24.420
is that it is, I mean, whilst the fact that capality is absolutely

738
00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:27.659
spectacular in that sequence, in those sequences and afterwards.

739
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.199
I just find the whole thing, that whole thing just goes on far too

740
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:31.500
long.

741
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.920
And because I just don't feel invested in it.

742
00:37:34.980 --> 00:37:38.159
I just I just feel like, okay, yeah, I get the point.

743
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:39.059
I get what's going to happen.

744
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:42.179
I think it just needed to unfold a little bit more rapidly because

745
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:47.400
I think it's more shocking if it happens a bit more suddenly than

746
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:50.280
this endless march to the execution.

747
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:53.519
And I know the feeling they were probably trying to get that

748
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:57.179
feeling of that, you know, like, you know, someone being escorted

749
00:37:57.179 --> 00:37:58.199
to the electric chair or something.

750
00:37:58.260 --> 00:38:01.559
But it just for me, the whole thing just slows down to a

751
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:05.099
standstill and I can't get invested in what's going to happen

752
00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:07.980
partly because I, going back to that previous point, partly

753
00:38:07.980 --> 00:38:10.559
because I'm not buying the fact that she's actually going to die.

754
00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:17.400
And so all that endless lead up is over the top for me.

755
00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:20.880
Yeah, I mean, I think I think what's interesting is having a

756
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.159
character knowing that they're going to die and that there's

757
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:24.599
nothing that can be done.

758
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:25.440
Absolutely.

759
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:28.559
And then just that interaction between those 2 actors.

760
00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:34.199
I mean, yes, look, I do, I do find myself moved by that episode

761
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.559
but I'm also watching it being done.

762
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:38.699
Do you know what I mean?

763
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.519
You're watching the dialogue you're watching, the characters, and

764
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:42.840
I'm happy to watch TV like that.

765
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:44.579
Like, that's generally how I watch it.

766
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.880
The sequence in the drawing room where they're talking about

767
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:48.840
what's going to happen.

768
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:49.800
That's great.

769
00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:53.400
It's then, even though maybe it goes on a little bit too long.

770
00:38:53.460 --> 00:38:56.159
But then it's these desperately slow sort of things where she goes

771
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:58.440
out into the street and these shots with the raven.

772
00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.139
It's all that that's, oh, please.

773
00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:06.719
Yeah, something we discussed last night was as soon as the credits

774
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:12.300
rolled, Rod said, it's really good. the repeated shots of Clara

775
00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:13.019
crying out.

776
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:16.320
He said, that's cruel. cruel for a child.

777
00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:19.800
And I think it's there to sell that this is real.

778
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:22.800
Just trying to say that she's actually dying as opposed to where

779
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:23.880
it's not a trick.

780
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:24.900
Yeah.

781
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.960
And you know, it's a recognised cinematic device, especially for

782
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.840
violent moments that you repeat it from several angles.

783
00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:34.860
I think it just needed to be a little bit tighter on some of those

784
00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:37.019
shots in terms of time.

785
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.719
That whole buildup where they're talking to each other.

786
00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:44.820
It's the same kind of buildup as the doctor, Nissa and Tegan

787
00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:47.039
running around the console room saying we have to get Adric out.

788
00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:51.360
It's Brian Blessed running down the corridor to get to Perry.

789
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:54.840
It's his sort of buildup of action where you as the viewer are

790
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:58.800
going, no, no, no, no, no, no.

791
00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:02.760
It gives time for that realisation of, oh, she's actually not

792
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:03.900
going to get out of it this time.

793
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.840
But at the same time, it's a double-edged sword.

794
00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:11.219
It's like if it's not working for you from the 1st line, it's not

795
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:13.019
going to be working for you by the last line.

796
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.099
The moment in that speech when you twig that it's not going to

797
00:40:17.099 --> 00:40:20.639
work out this time, is the moment you start to lose interest in

798
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:24.300
the scene because there's a discomfort.

799
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.360
There was for me anyway watching it, it's like, actually, I just

800
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:28.199
want to get past this bit.

801
00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:32.280
I want to get past this bit because I know what's coming now and I

802
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:33.119
am uncomfortable.

803
00:40:33.179 --> 00:40:35.579
Yeah, I feel like there's no right answer.

804
00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:40.380
I think that scene is too long and I think that the repeated shots

805
00:40:40.380 --> 00:40:43.739
of the silent scream at the end are a little bit clunky.

806
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:48.659
But then the whole artifice of Trap Street is present throughout

807
00:40:48.659 --> 00:40:49.199
the whole thing.

808
00:40:49.260 --> 00:40:52.199
Like, so we move, at the beginning of the episode, we're in the

809
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:55.139
real world, we're wandering around London, we've been to Rigsey's

810
00:40:55.139 --> 00:40:58.920
flat, and then we move into what's clearly a fantasy world.

811
00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:01.980
You know, the sets look very theatrical.

812
00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:06.300
You know, it's full of witches and smoke and birds and it feels

813
00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:10.380
like it's from a, from a fantasy perspective.

814
00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:14.280
And so it's hard when you get to that bit of the end where you're

815
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:15.480
going to kill off a character.

816
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:19.380
When everything about the aesthetic of the episode has felt quite

817
00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:22.019
storybook or quite fairy tale, if you like.

818
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:28.380
There's a China Mieville book called Kraken, and it also has

819
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:33.300
hidden streets in London that have fantasy creatures in it.

820
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:37.679
I was getting sort of diagon alley vibes from the street itself.

821
00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:39.059
And I think that's right.

822
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:42.059
It does take place suddenly in this storybook world.

823
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:47.159
And part of what happens is that Clara misunderstands the rules of

824
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:47.760
the world.

825
00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:51.840
Like there's no reason why her plan shouldn't work.

826
00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:58.559
And it's only that moment at the end where we learn that it's, you

827
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:03.360
can pass the thing on, but you can't cheat it completely.

828
00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:07.920
And then we, you know, the thing that Rump tells her earlier.

829
00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:12.780
And then we suddenly realised that we should have known all along

830
00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:16.559
that this was how that worked, that that was what he meant by

831
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:16.920
that.

832
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:22.380
But in a sense, the rules are magical and arbitrary. aren't they?

833
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:23.940
That's not a criticism.

834
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:27.059
I think the fact that it is a storybook thing, the fact that it's

835
00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:30.840
a raven, I think, is stunningly great, and the way that the, we

836
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:36.840
start seeing shots of the raven, as we are learning that Clara is

837
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:40.139
inevitably going to die, and hearing it cawing, and all of that

838
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:44.099
and even just the expression, face the raven, I think, is is so

839
00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:49.500
good, like all of that stuff works really, really, very well

840
00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:50.039
indeed.

841
00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:52.679
I mean, that's true.

842
00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:55.980
Like, it just has to be that way because that's what the fictional

843
00:42:55.980 --> 00:42:58.079
version of this is going to be.

844
00:42:58.139 --> 00:43:01.980
You know, like it's never going, the quantum shade, which we never

845
00:43:01.980 --> 00:43:02.760
find out what it is.

846
00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:05.099
It's rushed over what it is.

847
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.679
It's never going to take the form of a bunny rabbit, right?

848
00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:10.320
It's never going to take the form of something cute and cuddly.

849
00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:13.139
It's got to be something vaguely menacing like a raven.

850
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:17.219
There's no in story reason given for why it likes to spend its

851
00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:18.780
time as a raven.

852
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.780
Why it likes to spend its time caged up all the time.

853
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:27.780
It has to be like that because, because we have this, because it's

854
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:32.579
symbolic, because it brings back ideas about the occult and, you

855
00:43:32.579 --> 00:43:35.880
know, that darkness, which, which, that shiver you, you always

856
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:39.239
feel when you see this big blackbirds, you know, and you think it

857
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:40.320
can't be anything else.

858
00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:43.980
So, I think I'm convinced, well, what you're saying, Nathan, is

859
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:46.619
you know, the fictionality of it kind of takes over.

860
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:47.159
Yeah.

861
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:51.119
You know, it gets drawn by what it has to be to make the fiction

862
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:51.659
of it work.

863
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:55.800
I mean, it's just telling the doctors explanation of what it is is

864
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:57.360
it's a kind of spirit.

865
00:43:57.420 --> 00:44:01.440
Like we're well and truly not doing anything remotely resembling

866
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:02.340
science fiction.

867
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.199
Well, no, you don't need to...

868
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:05.820
That would just really get bogged down.

869
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:07.320
Oh, yeah, it's from the planet Quam.

870
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:07.800
Exactly.

871
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:09.119
Like blah, blah, blah.

872
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:10.800
And they lived for 370 years.

873
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

874
00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:16.019
And they have to kill once every 3 days. otherwise they lose their

875
00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:18.599
connection to the dimmy-dong thing, you know.

876
00:44:18.659 --> 00:44:21.960
Well, in fact, all this is now, all this is now.

877
00:44:22.019 --> 00:44:22.739
Exactly, you know.

878
00:44:22.739 --> 00:44:24.780
Return to quantity.

879
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:26.880
Big finish.

880
00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:31.559
It doesn't I didn't quite get understand the reason why if you can

881
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:33.179
pass it on and so and so on.

882
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:38.099
Why can't Clara pass it back to Rigsy and then she, if for

883
00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:40.260
whatever reason the deal she's done means that she can only

884
00:44:40.260 --> 00:44:42.599
extract it from Rigsy and no one else.

885
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:47.099
Yeah, she can't give it back to him.

886
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:52.260
Or if she did give it back to him, he would die because me says

887
00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:54.000
that you've cut me out of the loop.

888
00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:56.280
This was an arrangement between me and the shade.

889
00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:00.300
And now it's not I haven't given the shame.

890
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:00.960
Yes, yes.

891
00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:03.960
So there is some dialogue to kind of try and work around that and

892
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:06.840
it's not too tedious and it just does what it means.

893
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:07.800
And it doesn't really matter.

894
00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:22.920
I have to say, too, that the even just that beginning thing where

895
00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.639
Rigsy calls up and says, I've got a tattoo on the back of my neck

896
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.579
that's counting down is so brilliant.

897
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:31.380
Like, it's so clever.

898
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:35.280
You know, we've been at this for so long, this stupid show.

899
00:45:35.340 --> 00:45:40.800
And like it matches to do something incredibly different that you

900
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:42.119
would never have imagined before.

901
00:45:42.179 --> 00:45:46.260
That's really visual and effective, that doesn't require 15

902
00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:48.900
minutes of exposition to get it.

903
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:49.500
To get it there.

904
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:49.860
Exactly.

905
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:54.420
It's very clear what it is And it just leads to some absolutely

906
00:45:54.420 --> 00:46:02.039
joyful moments like the doctor being in awe over Lucy, the baby.

907
00:46:02.099 --> 00:46:03.239
A new human.

908
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:03.599
Yes.

909
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:07.440
Yeah, and then and then when he figures out that he can't

910
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.619
immediately think of a way to rescue Rigsey, he grabs the cards

911
00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:14.519
and starts using Rigsey's name and Rigsey's like, no, don't use my

912
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:16.679
name. use my name.

913
00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:17.400
I know it seriously.

914
00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:25.079
Speaking of Rigsy, his proper name in one version of the script

915
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:28.800
which is not spoken on screen for obvious reasons, was Christopher

916
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:29.460
Riggins.

917
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:31.860
No, please no.

918
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:37.320
I think Sarah Dollar knew it would never make it discreet.

919
00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:41.159
I mean, Rigsy's an interesting choice because we've seen him once

920
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:41.699
before.

921
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:46.679
It could easily have been Osgood or someone we're more familiar

922
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:46.920
with.

923
00:46:47.099 --> 00:46:49.079
It doesn't, you know, it's someone we've seen in multiple

924
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:49.559
episodes.

925
00:46:49.619 --> 00:46:55.920
I think it's never a bad idea to have positive male young role in

926
00:46:55.920 --> 00:47:00.840
the show and I think that a lack of knowledge about Rigsey's world

927
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:04.800
and what else is happening to him makes us do fear a little bit

928
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:07.139
more for him that things might go wrong for him.

929
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.480
He might actually be in genuine danger here.

930
00:47:09.539 --> 00:47:13.320
But I think that beginning section suffers a little bit from the

931
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.679
pacing problems that we're mentioning about the end of the, the

932
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:17.880
end of the episode as well.

933
00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:22.079
I think it does take a little bit too long, all of that stuff in

934
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:26.460
the map room and then walking around London, and actually, why

935
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:30.239
couldn't we have just gone there because the doctor makes this

936
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.079
enormous leap of logic when he says, oh, Rigsy, you've had contact

937
00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:35.880
with aliens in the last 24 hours.

938
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:38.820
Suddenly he goes, right, well, it must be because there's a group

939
00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:41.519
of hidden aliens somewhere, if we look for a trap story, we'll

940
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:41.880
find them.

941
00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:45.780
So it takes up a lot of time where we could have, you know, the

942
00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.539
simple narrative device about finding a piece of evidence would

943
00:47:48.539 --> 00:47:51.480
have led them to that point could have been done a lot faster and

944
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:53.400
we could have been in the world a lot faster than we are.

945
00:47:53.460 --> 00:47:54.900
That's a very good point, actually.

946
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.599
It reminds me of that long sequence at the end towards the end of

947
00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:59.760
the visitation where they're all standing in the console room

948
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:05.280
looking at a map of 1666 London with a line going across it.

949
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:07.980
It's like we just get there, just arrive.

950
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:10.920
So they find the place and they arrive, you know?

951
00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:14.159
But, I mean, those scenes do have a sort of character thing

952
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:16.980
because we did talk about Clara hanging out the door and stuff

953
00:48:16.980 --> 00:48:17.460
like that.

954
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:20.280
And I do think the conceit is super interesting.

955
00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:21.599
Like that's really fun.

956
00:48:21.659 --> 00:48:24.239
And I know that we've had perception filters and things like that

957
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:28.800
before, but you know, I love the detail of how when you walk past

958
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.079
it, if you're counting, you might lose count.

959
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:32.039
Oh yeah, that's cool.

960
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:33.599
All of that stuff is really kind of...

961
00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:36.300
I mean, if that was true, then honestly, I'd be passing trap

962
00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:37.079
streets every day.

963
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:42.300
I can't remember what I'm doing at any point in time.

964
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.719
And the idea of the trap street is a trap for the doctor is nice.

965
00:48:45.780 --> 00:48:47.760
There's a nice little kicker as well too.

966
00:48:47.820 --> 00:48:51.960
There was originally a lot more searching for the Trap Street, so

967
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:56.460
it got cut down to what we got, but there were moments like the

968
00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:59.820
doctor would just walk face 1st into a wall thinking it was going

969
00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:00.900
to be at the Trap Street.

970
00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:03.599
When they finally found it, they were sort of going to join hands

971
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:06.119
and the doctor's like, right, we need something to disrupt the

972
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:10.260
psychic field, and Rigsy would remember the birth of his kid, and

973
00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:13.980
they walk forward and find themselves in a coffee shop with

974
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:16.739
coffees, like 10 minutes have passed and they're like, oh.

975
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:17.820
Well, what happened?

976
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:22.139
But part of the reason I'm bringing in Rigsy was Sarah Dolite had

977
00:49:22.139 --> 00:49:22.500
the idea.

978
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.320
This was when it was just Commander Scan trying to start a war.

979
00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:26.760
He's the one who phoned Rigsy.

980
00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:31.679
Rigsy came along, painted a door to go through to the Trap

981
00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:32.219
Street.

982
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:34.079
Oh, because he's a graffiti.

983
00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:35.099
Graffitias, yes.

984
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:35.940
That's a good case.

985
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:38.760
And then later when, yeah, when the doctor thinks there's nothing

986
00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:39.179
we can do.

987
00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:44.099
He and Clara take Rigsy home and go in to meet the family to kind

988
00:49:44.099 --> 00:49:47.519
of be honest with them and say, hey, this is what's happening.

989
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:49.860
And the doctor looks around and there's drawings of the TARDIS

990
00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:52.860
everywhere and the doctor's like, you draw the TARDIS, you draw

991
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:53.519
doors.

992
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:56.519
And they would go back and draw the Tartar store and go through.

993
00:49:56.579 --> 00:49:58.800
So, you know, in.

994
00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:02.219
It's like the door got convinced basically. not the 1st time he'd

995
00:50:02.219 --> 00:50:04.019
drawn doors to advance the plot.

996
00:50:04.139 --> 00:50:05.519
Exactly.

997
00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:08.579
Johnny, with what you were saying about there must have been a

998
00:50:08.579 --> 00:50:09.119
simpler way.

999
00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:13.800
I just thought to myself, there's actually nothing in the rules

1000
00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:16.500
with fixed points and whatnot that the doctor couldn't have gone

1001
00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:19.980
back to half an hour after Rigsey got the call, park guitars

1002
00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:23.760
opposite the street and just gone, oh, okay, that's it. and then

1003
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:26.099
pop forward and that would have got us there in about 5 minutes.

1004
00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:31.079
I mean, I was thinking the reason that we have Rigsy is because

1005
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:35.099
Rigsy is from Flatline, which is a story, again, where Clara plays

1006
00:50:35.099 --> 00:50:39.780
the doctor, and he has a relationship with Clara, not the doctor.

1007
00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:42.239
He barely meets the doctor at the end.

1008
00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:46.860
And so he's calling Clara for help because in his world, she's the

1009
00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:47.280
doctor.

1010
00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:49.679
And so I think that that's important.

1011
00:50:49.739 --> 00:50:52.980
The other thing is that Jen, who we hear on the phone, but we

1012
00:50:52.980 --> 00:50:58.320
don't actually see is Naomi Aki, who is Whitney Houston in the

1013
00:50:58.320 --> 00:50:59.760
biopic, really?

1014
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:05.579
And is also Finn's sort of love interest in Rise of Skywalker as

1015
00:51:05.579 --> 00:51:05.880
well.

1016
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:10.500
So she's cut completely doesn't appear on screen at all, but she

1017
00:51:10.500 --> 00:51:12.719
does have a credit when we do hear her over the phone.

1018
00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:14.400
Yeah.

1019
00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:19.139
And we also have Letitia Wright as Anna son who would go on to

1020
00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:21.719
find great fame in the MCU and the Black Panther films.

1021
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:25.559
And to be a sort of weird COVID denialist or something.

1022
00:51:25.619 --> 00:51:27.239
Yeah.

1023
00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:31.500
Yeah, and speaking of another bit of questionable casting we could

1024
00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:35.280
have had is the 1st draft of the script opens in a regency era

1025
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:39.780
garden with the doctor playing poker with Jane Austen, while Bill

1026
00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:42.119
Hickock and Jeremy Clarkson.

1027
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:43.079
Oh my god.

1028
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:48.780
Now, then in early March 2015, of course, there was an incident

1029
00:51:48.780 --> 00:51:51.119
with Jeremy Clarkson not being able to have a hot dinner.

1030
00:51:51.179 --> 00:51:56.099
And he was shortly thereafter dumped by the BBC, in the next

1031
00:51:56.099 --> 00:52:00.000
version of the script dated the 27th of March, 2015.

1032
00:52:00.300 --> 00:52:03.480
Jeremy Clarkson is replaced with a far less controversial figure

1033
00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:04.679
Russell Brand.

1034
00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:05.219
Oh, great.

1035
00:52:05.219 --> 00:52:10.920
So it's probably for the best that we got that opening sequence.

1036
00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:13.019
We just had this really fun adventure.

1037
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.480
Maybe controversy. don't know.

1038
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:17.519
That's right.

1039
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:19.679
Yeah, the sentient plant might have been Russell.

1040
00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:20.280
Yes, exactly.

1041
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:23.099
I have to say, it's disappointing.

1042
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:26.039
I would have liked to have seen Rigsy as a short-term companion

1043
00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:27.599
like maybe doing some 4 or 5 episodes.

1044
00:52:27.659 --> 00:52:28.860
I think he's very very cool.

1045
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:30.420
The actor is very engaging to watch.

1046
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:34.320
And yeah, and yeah. and I think it would have worked better if

1047
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:36.539
he'd have been in it maybe a few more episodes of this season

1048
00:52:36.539 --> 00:52:38.880
while Clara is getting more and more reckless and careless and

1049
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:43.019
confident to have a companion who is, wait a minute, this is all

1050
00:52:43.019 --> 00:52:44.280
terrifying and we're all going to die.

1051
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:46.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1052
00:52:46.139 --> 00:52:47.579
Yeah, yeah.

1053
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:51.900
Joyvin Wade has, you know, thankfully gone from strength to

1054
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:52.260
strength.

1055
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:56.400
He's also Victor Stone slash cyborg in Doom Patrol and Titans.

1056
00:52:56.460 --> 00:52:57.179
Oh, okay.

1057
00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:00.539
So he, you know, thankfully has done well for himself.

1058
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:04.199
And he is a great actor and like on the Doctor Who extra making of

1059
00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:09.719
both Capaldi and Jenna talk about how much they enjoyed working

1060
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:11.099
with him.

1061
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:13.500
And he's on the making of going, I'm back for Doctor Who.

1062
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:14.219
I got the call again.

1063
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:20.039
It's funny because it's not an ear that does memorable guest

1064
00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:21.420
characters, I think, generally.

1065
00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:25.199
I think Russell can do that, but it's not something that Moffatt's

1066
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:26.460
particularly interested in.

1067
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:28.440
And I think he's really great.

1068
00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:30.780
I think he does it more in the Matt Smith era.

1069
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:32.099
I think it just a Capaldi or a thing.

1070
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:34.440
I think it's just the direction that they're taking they're taking

1071
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:34.800
the show.

1072
00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:37.679
Yeah, the kind of the kind of stories they're doing are

1073
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:38.099
different.

1074
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.199
The kind of episodes they're doing, the structures of changes.

1075
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:43.320
Most of the drama happens to the regulars rather than to other

1076
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:44.400
characters, I think.

1077
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:48.179
Oh, I was just about to say, it's a very introspective time in the

1078
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:51.480
show, it's history, the Capaldi era, whereas the Matt Smith era

1079
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:53.460
did seem to look outwards a little bit more.

1080
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:53.940
Indeed.

1081
00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:55.980
We are really, for these 3 years.

1082
00:53:56.039 --> 00:53:59.519
I mean, the 1st year is about, you know, the doctor asking himself

1083
00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:00.420
about his own character.

1084
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:01.860
I know.

1085
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:05.099
The 2nd one is about what is happening with Clara.

1086
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:07.619
And then 3rd one is even about what's happening with Missy.

1087
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:09.420
You know, so. on board with that one though.

1088
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:10.199
Well, yeah.

1089
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:13.380
I'm only on board for it for that last year.

1090
00:54:13.380 --> 00:54:16.860
But the drummer is really, you know, you know, my companion's

1091
00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:18.960
comic relief and...

1092
00:54:19.019 --> 00:54:19.260
Yes.

1093
00:54:20.820 --> 00:54:25.380
But, you know, never is that true of an in Face to Raven, where we

1094
00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:26.519
abandoned the plot.

1095
00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:30.239
We abandoned the trapstrait plot to get back to the to the drama

1096
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.159
which is happening to our internal characters.

1097
00:54:32.219 --> 00:54:35.699
And I think I think there are pros and cons about that.

1098
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:39.059
And I think one of the pros of it is enables Capaldi to show what

1099
00:54:39.059 --> 00:54:40.079
a fantastic actor.

1100
00:54:40.139 --> 00:54:40.860
Yeah.

1101
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:43.679
He's magnificent in that whole sequence, isn't he?

1102
00:54:43.739 --> 00:54:44.940
He's so great.

1103
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:45.960
He's so good.

1104
00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:48.960
And even that sort of conversation, you know, which is obviously

1105
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:53.940
going to lead into next week, the I'm not going to make you

1106
00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:58.619
promise I'm giving you an order, you know, no one else is to

1107
00:54:58.619 --> 00:54:58.920
suffer.

1108
00:54:58.980 --> 00:55:01.920
And you know, then he says, well, what about me?

1109
00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:04.199
And she says, well, I can't help that.

1110
00:55:04.260 --> 00:55:05.880
All of that stuff is so good.

1111
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:07.500
And Capoldi is so great.

1112
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:12.000
There's a moment where he's like, he's peering up for most of

1113
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:12.300
that.

1114
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:16.559
But there's one where he just looks at her with such love.

1115
00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:19.500
Like he just loves her so much.

1116
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:21.119
It's so well done.

1117
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:24.000
And, you know, like, I think I think Matt Smith is an

1118
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.480
extraordinary actor and one of the very best actors to ever play

1119
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:31.739
the role, but I can't imagine him doing what Capoldi does here.

1120
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:33.719
He's so magnificent.

1121
00:55:33.780 --> 00:55:34.440
He's so good.

1122
00:55:34.500 --> 00:55:36.059
He's very good.

1123
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:39.900
And it's that's why it's so great he gets next week's episode to

1124
00:55:39.900 --> 00:55:40.980
himself as well too.

1125
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.980
And it's really allowed to own that space for 45 minutes.

1126
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:44.699
It's amazing.

1127
00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:08.639
Well, that's all we have to look for this week.

1128
00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:12.480
We'll be back next week to talk about Peter Capoldi doing a lot of

1129
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:15.659
things over and over again in heaven's sent.

1130
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:19.739
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1131
00:56:19.739 --> 00:56:23.340
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1132
00:56:21.539 --> 00:56:26.400
com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as

1133
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:30.900
links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain

1134
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:34.079
maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

1135
00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:38.639
Until next time, be reckless, like the doctor.

1136
00:56:38.699 --> 00:56:40.920
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1137
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:42.300
Good night.

1138
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:43.079
Bye bye.

1139
00:56:43.139 --> 00:56:43.980
See you soon.

1140
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:53.099
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

1141
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:55.079
Brennan, Jones, Simon Moore, and Johnny Spandrel.

1142
00:56:55.139 --> 00:56:57.059
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1143
00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:00.360
This episode, the planet Quantos, was recorded on the 29th of

1144
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:03.119
October 2023 and released on the 19th of November.

1145
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:08.519
Next weekend, a new series of Doctor Who special sits our screens

1146
00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:11.039
and with it, a new Doctor Who flash cast in which we offer our

1147
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:13.199
half baked opinions on every new episode.

1148
00:57:13.260 --> 00:57:16.559
It's called the 2nd great and bountiful human empire, and it

1149
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:18.179
launches on the 27th of November.

1150
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.360
Find us at the 2nd great and bountiful human empire.com.

1151
00:57:27.420 --> 00:57:28.739
Okay, what do we do?

1152
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:29.699
How are we going?

1153
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:31.380
We've got an hour and 5 minutes.

1154
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:37.380
I think that we have an end where we can edit Maisie back into the

1155
00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:37.860
beginning.

1156
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:38.880
Do you know what I mean?

1157
00:57:38.940 --> 00:57:41.880
Like talk about the thing, then talk about Maisie, then talk about

1158
00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:42.840
the final scene.

1159
00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:46.320
Like, I think that that's easily doable without sort of too much

1160
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:46.800
effort.

1161
00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:50.579
Does anyone have anything that any closing remark?

1162
00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:54.719
Probably be the tag, anything hilarious to say?

1163
00:57:54.780 --> 00:57:55.679
Hilarious.

1164
00:57:55.739 --> 00:57:57.719
I could go for a quick Wii.

1165
00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:03.780
I mean, I did have a mild Todd experience, the mildest of Todd

1166
00:58:03.780 --> 00:58:07.079
experiences with this, which I'm not prone to.

1167
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:10.559
I think you may have mentioned. and he may have noticed.

1168
00:58:10.619 --> 00:58:15.840
But in that, I thought I really wasn't going to like this and I

1169
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:17.880
found much to like in it.

1170
00:58:17.940 --> 00:58:22.260
But like some of my comments on several other episodes of this

1171
00:58:22.260 --> 00:58:22.559
season.

1172
00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:26.400
I'm frustrated by the episode that might have been.

1173
00:58:26.460 --> 00:58:29.579
So I sort of, I'm feeling, and that's, you know, obviously

1174
00:58:29.579 --> 00:58:31.320
completely ridiculous.

1175
00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:34.739
But I, I, I, I kind of, I, I wanted different.

1176
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:37.320
I wanted a different set of episodes, basically, with broadly the

1177
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:40.199
same brush strokes, but just kind of the differences in how they

1178
00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:40.679
unfold.

1179
00:58:40.739 --> 00:58:43.679
That's one experience of a Doctor Who.

1180
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:47.699
The one except the one exception being what we're about to have

1181
00:58:47.699 --> 00:58:53.099
and that is one of the one of the best episodes slash stories in

1182
00:58:53.099 --> 00:58:54.719
the entire history program.

1183
00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:55.860
So, yeah.

1184
00:58:55.980 --> 00:58:59.280
And I think it's only, I think you could only do it with Capaldi.

1185
00:58:59.340 --> 00:59:01.320
I can't think of another actor who could.

1186
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:04.619
He might have been able to do it with Matt, but I think...

1187
00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:07.079
But again, the gravitating thing, yeah.

1188
00:59:07.139 --> 00:59:09.960
It's the reason that the doctor can't be the good cop.

1189
00:59:10.019 --> 00:59:13.139
We've talked about this, doctor. your face, your eyebrow.

1190
00:59:15.300 --> 00:59:16.980
So neat.

1191
00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:18.900
I've got one small thing.

1192
00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:24.179
I looked up the Doctor Who magazine's done the 60th anniversary

1193
00:59:24.179 --> 00:59:24.780
poll.

1194
00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:27.000
They've done it per doctor this year.

1195
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:29.940
I was wondering if anyone would like to guess where Face the Raven

1196
00:59:29.940 --> 00:59:32.280
came out of 35 Capaldi's.

1197
00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:33.059
Oh, it's like three.

1198
00:59:33.059 --> 00:59:35.460
Do you know this or are we predicting this?

1199
00:59:35.579 --> 00:59:37.320
No, I know this.

1200
00:59:37.380 --> 00:59:38.699
I know the answer. prepped?

1201
00:59:38.760 --> 00:59:39.539
I've done some prep.

1202
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:41.400
Why don't I just walk up?

1203
00:59:41.460 --> 00:59:43.920
It's the 2 part finale, isn't it?

1204
00:59:43.980 --> 00:59:48.539
Like it's the, it's the, um, world enough in time in Dr. Falls.

1205
00:59:48.539 --> 00:59:49.559
Is first, is it?

1206
00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:52.800
Heaven's sent is up there as well.

1207
00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:54.719
Heaven Sand is second.

1208
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:55.320
Yeah.

1209
00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:57.119
And Mummy on the RA Express.

1210
00:59:57.780 --> 00:59:58.860
Oh, really?

1211
00:59:58.920 --> 00:59:59.880
Yeah, I think that's a good one.

1212
00:59:59.940 --> 01:00:01.320
Face the Raven.

1213
01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:02.699
Face the Raven is 11th.

1214
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:03.300
Oh, wow.

1215
01:00:03.300 --> 01:00:06.239
And it's behind under the lake for the flood.

1216
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.059
The Husbands of River Song.

1217
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:10.199
Oh, well that's good.

1218
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:13.199
Extremists.

1219
01:00:13.260 --> 01:00:15.059
So I was surprised, actually.

1220
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:18.179
I thought it might have ranked a little bit higher than some of

1221
01:00:18.179 --> 01:00:18.360
those.