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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:50:44

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's been flogging the same old shtick now for nearly a billion years.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm Rob.

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Well, everyone else has been given the week off, and so this week it's just Capaldi, Moffatt, Gold, and Talalay here to show us exactly what they're capable of.

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Let's work out what that is as we discuss heaven sent.

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So, this is Moffat kind of operating on hard mode, isn't it?

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This is him showing us what he can do, as he's on the way out the door.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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In fact, you know, 1st of all, thanks for having me on, by the way, because there's been really a great podcast to kind of get me through the pandemic and stuff.

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But what I'm going to do.

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I'm going to mention Sandepa straight off the bat, because, um, Sandra says about this one, that, um, it's a conscious exercise in being brilliant on Moffatt's part, rather than having to be brilliant because of production difficulties.

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It's, it's him kind of, you know, giving a, like a wilful demonstration of his kind of craft and his talent at a point where he's kind of, he's leaving the show and he's kind of saying the last things he's got to say about Doctor Who.

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And someone, I hadn't seen this, I think, since broadcast.

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So I kind of, it was a kind of surprise and a reminder of all the, uh, you know, Moffatt's fondness for voiceover and hero moments.

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And this is an episode of voiceover and hero moments, really.

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So, uh, but yeah, I think it's Moffatt saying, you know, I'm leaving soon.

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I kind of know I am.

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And this is how terrific I can be.

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They've convinced me to stay. hasn't happened yet.

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So I think it's more about that than it is about grief.

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And we'll talk a little bit more about grief, but I think that it is essentially a formal exercise.

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And so the constraints that he's placed on himself.

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He's allowing himself a few seconds of Jenna actually speaking, but otherwise there's no one else who has any lines and there's only Capaldi and the veil.

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There's no timey whiminess, everything happens in chronological order, however much it might not seem like that, everything happens in chronological order.

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And that's a constraint.

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I think that he places on himself because he's so well known for all of that sort of thing.

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There might be any timing, why I mean it's in the way that this story unfolds from that point of view, but I think there's a great big bit of timey why menace, the fact that it takes 4.5000000 years, whatever it is, to unfold.

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I think that's the thing that is the most gut wrenching thing about the entire episode is just the unimaginable amount of time that you think is passed.

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And I think he is using time, but in a different way to how he's used it before.

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Yeah.

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So we think that he's come straight from Trap Street at the beginning of the episode, but it has in fact already been 7000 years.

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Yes.

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But we're given hints of that because you see, you're given hints that you can see when you watch it for the 2nd time.

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But when you're watching it for the 1st time, you do think he's come straight from Trap Street.

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I think it's so beautiful.

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And you just assume that, you know, things like the drying clothes on the rack in that room are just there because, you know, oh, we were in this weird castle that rotates.

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So of course there's going to be a spare set of the doctor's costume.

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One imagines that the very 1st time he's what he just goes around the rest of it in his underwear or something.

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All wet clothes.

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Well, no, he has to leave the wet clothes.

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Hanging there for the next for the 2nd one to go.

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Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

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We don't need to think about that.

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It doesn't need to be a time loop for him to do the same thing each time as well because he is the same person in the same circumstance.

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Starting in the same way, exactly the same things.

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Is it exactly the same stimuli?

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So it's not unreasonable.

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He'll actually just keep doing exactly the same thing ever again.

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Have you had the experience editing yourself on a podcast where you go, I wish I'd said this and then you hear yourself saying it immediately on the recording?

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No, because I always said it.

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No, it's all right.

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Not quite true.

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No, I haven't, but yeah, you do sort of imagine it comes to you as you're listening to it, yes.

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Because you're the same person reacting to the same stimulus.

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Yes.

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And so you do the same thing.

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And so you have him repeating this thing, not because it's a time loop, but because he's doing it again in the same circumstances.

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So it's actually an interesting study in how, would we make the same choices if presented with exactly the same situations with exactly the same knowledge that we had, would we just do the same thing again?

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We are to believe that over the course of 4.5000000 years, he never deviates from that.

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There is a reason, though, and we'll get to that in a minute.

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Yeah, well, I was just kind of thinking about that as I was watching it this time because, you know, the skulls pile up, et cetera, et cetera. microchanges do occur.

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So, you know, if Jurassic Park has taught us anything.

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It's the really, really there would be changes because of chaos theory, but, you know, that doesn't matter.

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So Moffat's actually gone on record as saying that there was a different set of clothes at some and that the doctor skipped a loop and accidentally didn't pick up the clothes and then they were stuck in that loop.

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That's when it starts repeating constantly. in his head cannon as the writer.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So the 1st few times might have been slightly different than sort of settles into a group.

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Because it becomes clear that he's conscious of it.

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By the end of the loop, he's in a situation where he remembers the previous loop.

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Yeah, like as he's worked out that he has to have done it.

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No, he remembers there's like there is a moment there where he remembers as he's about to be touched by the veil.

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He remembers everything and it touches his face.

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And so that last sort of, you know, the crawl up the stairs to to sacrifice himself to be, like, reincarnated, to come back and do it again.

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He, at that moment, that's when he realises too late, to affect any change, apart from getting back upstairs, to start again.

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And in some respects, he needs to be aware of it, that he's done it so many times because subsequently, you know, he hasn't just said that, well, actually, you know, whilst a version of me has been doing this for the last 45000000 years, I've only been doing it for the last 24 hours or however long he is in that castle.

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Whereas it's quite clear in the subsequent episode, he remembers the 4.5 1000000 years.

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He remembers the rep in summer form.

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The other bit of change, of course, and at the risk of starting at the end, and moving back to the beginning, is, of course, that sequence of dialogue that he has at the end as he's smashing through the diamond wall.

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Gradually that speech.

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It gets longer and longer each time he does it.

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And I think that's just a beautiful way of showing the stretch of time.

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It's just fantastic.

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Fabulous, isn't it?

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So we get that speech, the one hell of a bird speech. but it takes 1000000000s of years for it to get to the end of it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And of course, it must be one hell of a bird and that's the moment that he kind of breaks through.

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It's like, it's astonishing.

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I think it really is astonishing.

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There is the word puzzle box.

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The word puzzle box appears in the script, just as it appears in City of Death.

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It's Moffat's thing he's known for is writing these puzzle box scripts.

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These scripts where a whole heap of disparate things seem to happen.

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Something happens and we reinterpret what we've already seen and everything sort of clicks into place.

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And he's definitely doing that here.

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And so the plot of the episode is a puzzle every bit as much as the sort of clockwork castle that Capaldi finds himself trapped in.

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Can I just say what an incredibly brave choice this was to make in the 1st place.

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We've never had an episode which has been just the doctor as a monologue for the entire thing.

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And I know that, as you said, there's a line from Clara or whatever, but effectively, it's a 45 minute monologue.

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How easily that could have fallen flat.

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And I think it is worth noting that I think Capaldi is probably the only doctor who would have been able to successfully do this.

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Yes, I think Matt Smith would have been very good, and I think Tom, before he goes off the reservation in the back half of his era, would also have been good.

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Neither of them would have matched this performance.

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And I think I can't imagine any of the other doctors even getting to 50%.

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He is one of, if not, the best actor to ever play this role.

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I think also partly other than the fact he is one of the greatest actors who've ever played the role.

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It's an old man's story. to convey the weight of, you know, unthinkable amounts of time, 1000000000s of years and stuff, but in human terms, you know, Peter Capaldi is, you can see the time on him, you know, and he's a man who can convey the weight of, you know, in human terms, relatable terms, decades of experience, pain, regret, the rest of it.

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And I think that's another thing that makes it a story that feels utterly tailored to him.

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Yeah, I don't think Matt Smith could have done it in the same way because as humans watching humans, it wouldn't have worked the way it works with Capaldi.

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Things like the visual staff.

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Like, I think Matt Smith plays convincingly as an old man in a way.

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An old man in a young man's body.

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But he just doesn't look like it, you know, at all.

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And just, you know, here we have something that's not just a one man show.

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We also have, you know, Murray Gold, and we have Rachel Talalay, and she is doing an incredible job.

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And so she's the one who gives us that face.

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We see his face so much and it conveys all of those things in a way that no one else's could have, I think.

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And she's the one who also prevents the creature from being too clearly displayed, um, even when it's filling the frame, it's sort of slightly out of focus because it's standing behind the doctor or you're seeing it from behind the doctor's head or something.

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So it's the best way to shoot those kind of monsters to make sure that they, you know, they're quite sure what you're looking at.

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You couldn't you wouldn't be able to successfully draw a picture of it afterwards because you never feel like you really got a proper look at it.

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It's not the Fisher King.

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For example.

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It needed a horror director to direct it and she is very good at that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And she has a wonderful in this story, a control of point of view.

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It's incredibly subjective when we 1st arrive.

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And then just the, the, the brilliant shock choices of when to divulge in visual information the doctor can't see and when to keep it utterly from his point of view.

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And yeah, and I think it's a gift for horror that does it.

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But yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

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But isn't it wonderful too, Rob, the way, you know, we have the television screen showing what the creature can see and how, you know, the doctor works out.

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Oh, yes, that's actually what the creatures see, so he can work out where the creature is and so on.

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Someone like Rachel Talais is so careful in making sure we have all of the visual information that we need to be completely sure of what's going on.

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Confused as to what's going on in a different way, but in terms of knowing how things relate to each other and what we're supposed to be paying attention to, she is quite the genius and head and shoulders above many of the other Doctor Who directors.

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It's that 1st sequence where the camera is all kind of slightly rolling in the same direction, like every shot, has the same kind of camera movement, and it's a sort of very gentle rotation, and you see the static on the TV screen, which is what appears when the creature has been destroyed, like when it disappears, and we have the fly, the close-up of the fly, the static.

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And the fly is such an incredible detail because, you know, things that are shot in studios don't have those.

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No, you know, a fly puts it in a real space.

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It's like, you know, in New Earth, where Russell Drenches, Tenants, and Billy Piper.

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Decontamination biscuit.

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Yeah, in order to put them in a real world, you know, cover them in water.

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It's less of a studio set if everyone's having sort of liquid port all over them.

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Here we have flies.

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And all I could think, this is so bad.

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All I could think of is how insects have improved in how they're realised in Doctor Who since Nightmare of Eden.

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I think you're going to say the Green Dead.

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Do you remember that thing that flies out of the projection?

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Yes, oh, it's Romana?

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Just like, is that a fly?

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What is that?

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It's a space fly.

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And because everything's about death.

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Everything there is about there.

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The flies, it's like rotting flesh.

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Yeah, well that's what she is.

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That's like that description.

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Oh, so that thing is called the veil.

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It's plucked from the doctor's nightmares and it's an old woman who whose body was left outside.

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So, you know, in the heat.

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It was really hot and it started to smell and they wrapped her in veils.

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Capaldi has a monologue about it.

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So it's a thing that he remembers from his childhood, a nightmare from his childhood that's been realised and put into the confession dial with him.

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And so it's explicitly about death and decay.

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And it's great how the flies then become the harbinger of the veil.

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You don't need to see the veil to know it's that it can't be far away now.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it's really brilliant, isn't it?

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It's just, a kind of thing that not many people would have thought to do, I think.

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I mean, it may very well be in the script, of course, but it's not just what's in the script. is how the script is realised.

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And I think full credit to Murray for, and I suspect this is the director being clear about what she wants.

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But his music is so appropriate for what's going on.

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There's nothing bombastic when there shouldn't be.

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It's so gentle. and just goes to show the kind of music he could be providing in other episodes.

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I mean, I think the, you know, the strings.

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Is it cellos and things like cellos and double bases and all of that.

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And there's like the veil has a theme.

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The whole place has a thing.

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And we only hear the doctor's hero theme when he starts telling the story, the brother's grim story.

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And, you know, that obviously leads up to the hell of a bird thing, but it is also the doctor stopping and doing something very doctor-ish for the 1st time or, you know, he's just telling a story.

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The brothers Grim were on his darts team.

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You know, like it's such a, such a normal Doctor Who thing to do.

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And that's when we get to hear Capaldi's hero theme as he's taking those steps towards what he does to get through the Asbantium space wall. thing, yeah.

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I love the Sherlock aspect, which we 1st see when he's, you know, falling when he's jumped out of the through the window, having thrown the chair through.

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We see him in the TARDIS console room, working it all out in what is, whatever, the 7 odd seconds or something that takes me four.

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He goes to his mind palace.

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It's just mind palace.

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Exactly.

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Yes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Exactly.

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And we can sort of imagine that, but it is also very, it is very suggestive of Sherlock, the way, you know, oh, that's why he threw the chair through the window because he wanted to work out how far it was going to fall.

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And all the other aspects about that is.

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It's so beautifully done and you can sort of imagine that happening in all the other situations where the doctor is frantically working things out.

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In fact, the really, really interesting thing is because this is not just, look, what a great actor I've cast as the doctor.

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It is, and let's be fair, Moffatt saying, look how incredibly clever I am.

197
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And so there's all these details like dropping the eyeglass dropping the petal on the lily, all of which then get reinterpreted as part of him working out what the environment is like, how long it is before he's likely to fall, what the gravity is like, all of that sort of stuff.

198
00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:48.299
And so all of these little details are then reinterpreted as part of the doctor being clever.

199
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.700
But that's Moffatt's normal trick, isn't it?

200
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:51.119
Yes.

201
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:55.859
He includes details and then we learn what they were important.

202
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:56.640
Yeah.

203
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:59.279
But the other thing is, though, that it's all done.

204
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:00.299
It's not just that.

205
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:07.319
It's also the fact that then it's all executed so just beautifully. whilst it is him showing off and how clever he is.

206
00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:15.539
And then, you know, Capaldi's showing off about how great an accurate is and talent showing off how great a director she is, you don't get a sense that anyone's actually showing off, they're just naturally brilliant.

207
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.299
And I think that's just such a rare commodity.

208
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.019
I think they're showing off Oh, no, I'm not saying, no, they're showing off.

209
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:22.619
They can.

210
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.000
But they can, but they're showing off successfully in that, you know, the worst thing is when someone shows off and it doesn't quite work.

211
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:27.720
Yeah, yeah.

212
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.660
Yeah, or you have a character pointing out how clever that was.

213
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.099
Yeah, but they don't do that.

214
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:32.940
There you go.

215
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.940
Well, that's that maybe that's the fortunate thing about not having any other characters.

216
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:41.339
Yeah, well, I mean, but the thing about Para is that she wouldn't tell the doctor how clever.

217
00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:45.359
Yeah, none of the best companions would, I think.

218
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:03.240
Going back to what you guys were talking about in the horror aspects of it, There are so many sort of horror tropes.

219
00:19:03.299 --> 00:19:14.640
There's that word that are sort of littered throughout it that has just handled so well, you know, the shock of the door opening and then something, the creature's there and the flies coming and never quite sure what's happening next norts around the next corner.

220
00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:24.660
Those things, which are all textbook techniques in the horror genre, are all used so well and so successfully, and you never feel like, oh, this is cliche, oh, they're just doing this.

221
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.059
And I think it could have so easily been that.

222
00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:28.680
It could have so easily been tiresome.

223
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:29.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

224
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:35.279
Yeah, I was wrecking my brains because this episode has always reminded me of something.

225
00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:39.720
Obviously, texture, they actually mentioned it's the Brothers Grimm's The Shepherd Boy.

226
00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:42.240
And Moffatt's always been had, I think, for Dark Fairy Tale.

227
00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:51.480
But this is always reminded me of something else because it feels it's, yes, it's wildly original and all that, but it feels within a tradition and I've been trying to rack my brains as to what it reminds me of and how it works on me.

228
00:19:51.539 --> 00:20:04.740
And I don't even know if I've kind of got to the bottom of other things it's like, but one of them, I think, is the Shawshank Redemption because it's really, it's the story of an escape tunnel being dug.

229
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:10.859
It doesn't work for me either as a story about grief in any way.

230
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:29.640
And technically it's incredible, but the way it does affect me emotionally is simply that kind of indefatigable hope and perseverance thing, which Shawshank does. which, you know, in which in the whole big revelation about this, No, no, no, this is linear and the doctor is just not giving up.

231
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:36.299
That's, for me, where the emotional heft of it comes and what makes it emotional is literally his perseverance.

232
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:40.140
So I think actually, yeah, it's, yeah, it's Shawshank.

233
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.319
I think that this kind of rings bells for me about.

234
00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:45.420
Yeah, it's interesting you say that.

235
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.359
I'm actually, now you mentioned Shawshank, I entirely agree.

236
00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:53.400
And I agree also that I don't see it about grief, or at least that's not what I'm getting when I'm watching it.

237
00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:54.480
I entirely agree with you.

238
00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:56.519
It's that hope. that perseverance.

239
00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:04.500
It's scraping that little bit off each time so that in 6 months, 12 months, we'll be able to escape from this prison, you know, stretch it out, obviously, to 1000000000s of years.

240
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:08.339
Yeah, it's interesting because grief is talked to, not about grief.

241
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:09.720
Grief is talked about a lot.

242
00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:13.259
Grief is the subject of discussion, but it's not the theme of it.

243
00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:20.160
The theme is about, you know, I'm going to, you know, keeping going, not giving up, solving the problem.

244
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:30.539
Oh, man, not necessarily about grief, just about sort of, I mean, sheer bastard kind of stubbornness through this really trying situation.

245
00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:34.200
I wouldn't necessarily say stubbornness, actually, if I may, James.

246
00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:36.240
I'd almost say it's the perseverance.

247
00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:39.180
It's the will to keep going, never be defeated.

248
00:21:39.299 --> 00:21:42.839
Stubbornness implies that, well, I'm just going to keep doing this and I don't care what anybody else thinks.

249
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:45.720
He still, he keeps doing it because he needs to.

250
00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:52.019
He knows that Clara needs him to do this to get out of here so that he can then save her, et cetera.

251
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:52.740
Do you know what I mean?

252
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.559
So yeah, I get what you're saying, but I actually don't know whether it's stubbornness.

253
00:21:55.619 --> 00:22:13.680
So Moffat says that the best scene in heaven's sand is the scene in Hellbent where the doctor and Clara are talking about this in the Matrix underbasement thing. and the close to room, yeah.

254
00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:15.420
Yeah, it's an incredible scene.

255
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:32.039
And the reason is that we suddenly get this radically reinterpreted in a way that we didn't understand because the doctor says that he knew all along who had captured him and he knew what the situation was.

256
00:22:32.099 --> 00:22:44.519
And so the only way to get to the people who had captured him, who were the time lords was to persist and persist and persist and persist, and then he would get into an extraction chamber, and he would be able to save Clara's life.

257
00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:48.059
And Clara is absolutely horrified by that.

258
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.839
Like, cannot believe that he's gone to those lengths.

259
00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:54.299
It's been 4.5 1000000000 years, get over it.

260
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.700
Yes, that's exactly what she says.

261
00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:57.420
Get over it.

262
00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:59.640
And that's the thing.

263
00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:04.440
The research doesn't work properly as a metaphor for grief is...

264
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:14.039
There's the one line about grief, I think, in the in the show is where the doctor says the day that someone dies isn't the worst day.

265
00:23:14.099 --> 00:23:15.720
At least you've got something to do.

266
00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:18.839
And that sounds like a flip moffatism.

267
00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:21.299
That's the sort of Moffat thing that's all the time.

268
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.619
In fact, but that's actually true.

269
00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:24.000
It's actually entirely...

270
00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:27.480
It goes on to say, it's all the days later.

271
00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:29.880
Yeah. when they're still dead.

272
00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:32.460
And that's not really true.

273
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:37.259
Because however great a loss is.

274
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:40.140
You do eventually get over it.

275
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.180
And you don't ever completely get over it.

276
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.079
There's a scar.

277
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:44.700
There are tender spots.

278
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:51.000
There are moments where you think of it again, but you get over it, you know.

279
00:23:51.059 --> 00:24:01.440
And so the doctor's kind of weird self-indulgent thing, like Clara is there to take him down a peg and say, this is ridiculous.

280
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:03.900
You should have just let me die.

281
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:14.880
Yeah, but it is that thing, while there's life, there's hope, while there's hope, there's life, you could say, because he knows that if he keeps going, there's a chance to save it, or he believes, if he keeps going, there's a chance to save it.

282
00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:21.119
You know, the healing process with grief starts because you know they are ever coming back and he's not actually in that spot.

283
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:22.140
You learn to live.

284
00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:22.680
It is true.

285
00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:23.819
Yeah, exactly.

286
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.759
He doesn't need to learn to live with it because he still thinks that he can do something about it.

287
00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:29.400
But, I mean, the thing is that Clara will be horrified.

288
00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:38.220
Like she tears up that he, because he's put himself through so much pain, you know, for her, which is something that she absolutely doesn't want.

289
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.259
So is it more less about that?

290
00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:40.859
Not worth it.

291
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.880
So is this story less about grief and more about denial then?

292
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:53.279
Well, it's partly about how stupid men are, you know, which is a theme in the... that's the next episode.

293
00:24:53.339 --> 00:24:55.259
But that's a theme in the Moffat era.

294
00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:58.140
But it is also about how clever the doctor is.

295
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:00.599
And so, yeah, you get those scenes.

296
00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:04.920
I always want the doctor to be funnier than the villains and that's why he wins.

297
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:08.099
You, Simon, always wants him to be cleverer than the villain.

298
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:08.579
Exactly.

299
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.160
Yeah, he is clever.

300
00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:11.640
Exactly.

301
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:12.660
Whilst he's so funny.

302
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.680
He is still funny.

303
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:17.279
And that's when I think I like the tone of it because it strikes.

304
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:18.420
I mean, yeah, it is on the darker side.

305
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:25.259
I don't say that all Doctor Who episodes need to be quite this bleak, but the fact that it's so well written and well performed.

306
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.299
You've got, it sets for me exactly the right tone for Doctor Who in that you've got, everything is completely serious.

307
00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:32.400
In terms of the situation is completely serious.

308
00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:37.680
But the doctor can still have these wonderful, beautiful one liners that provide these lighter moments.

309
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.819
And I think that rather than those lighter moments being, the raison d'etre for the episode.

310
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.279
What I was going to say about the loss thing.

311
00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:48.960
I mean, as the doctor says, you know, you're doing everything on the day of the DSA, you know, organising the funeral, et cetera, et cetera.

312
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:59.160
And then when the funeral's over and everybody's gone and you've received all the flowers, the sympathy flowers, and they're just sitting there and they're slowly rotting, and suddenly nobody calls you.

313
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:01.259
Everyone stops calling you.

314
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:05.640
And I think that's it's something that's an observation that's been made to me about funerals.

315
00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:07.920
It's almost the hardest part is when everyone goes away.

316
00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:11.460
Yeah. and thinks that, well, that was that done. to the next thing.

317
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.799
And I think that's explored here.

318
00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:14.880
Yeah.

319
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:21.000
I mean, there might be something about, you know, um, uh, man search for meaning by Victor Frankel?

320
00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:27.480
you know, the guy, he survived, he was one member of his family survived the survived Auschwitz, and it's a very, it's a very short book.

321
00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:28.380
It's really good.

322
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:49.019
But he kind of talks about, you know, the importance of one of the things that, you know, the important thing is in life is meaning's more important than, you know, will to power, all the sex drive, all, you know, Nietzsche and Freud and stuff, and he, you know, meaning is the most important thing, and the contemplation of those you love is the important thing to get you through things as terrible as the camps.

323
00:26:49.079 --> 00:27:02.940
And so maybe, I think kind of grief is talked about, but I think it's the contemplation of Clara that keeps him going through this insane, endless suffering to get through the other side.

324
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:14.519
Yes, I just, so just oddly, grief is the thing that's talked about, but it's actually the contemplation of Clara, the way that, you know, when you lose people you love, they don't go away.

325
00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:17.339
They're just you'll never ever see them again, but they're still kind of there.

326
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:23.279
And that's the stuff that gets you through the horribleness of what most of life, to be honest.

327
00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:37.019
Yeah, so I kind of think it's possibly more, even though the episode doesn't say this, it's about the contemplation of those you love who aren't there anymore that can get you through punching through a Diamond Mountain.

328
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.920
It's funny, isn't it?

329
00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:44.339
We do see the 1st time he accidentally says Clara's name.

330
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:50.460
The way, the way the doctor in the rescue accidentally says Susan's name.

331
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:59.460
You see him do that for the 1st time, but that just develops into a full-blown conversation with her.

332
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:07.619
And it's a conversation initially with her back, then with her at the blackboard, and then finally with her actually speaking to him.

333
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:21.539
Yeah, actually, just on a technical level where you do have your lead actor, essentially talking to himself for 54 minutes, there are so many brilliant devices employed to make that utterly justifiable.

334
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.359
But, you know, it's everything Moffatt's ever done.

335
00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:29.099
But initially it's the talking to the darkness because he's probably being listened to.

336
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:45.660
So, yeah, he can just talk to the castle, to his unseen enemies, whether singular or plural, then he's got his mind palaced, then he's got Clara, you know, it's just all the, all these great ways of, um, yeah, just justifying what could have died on its arse.

337
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:51.900
There's even that great line where he breaks the 4th wall and says, oh, yes.

338
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.079
I work well with an audience or something along those lines.

339
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:57.299
Yeah, I'm nothing without an audience.

340
00:28:57.299 --> 00:28:58.380
And he just looks at the camera.

341
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:00.779
And glances of camera. fantastic.

342
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:02.579
And that's all you need.

343
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:03.660
And it's so good.

344
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:04.799
So good.

345
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:07.740
It's like a, it's like watching a stage show.

346
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:08.579
Yeah, yeah.

347
00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:09.960
A stage show without an interval.

348
00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:30.420
Like, I mean, obviously, it wouldn't really work, but that's what it reminds me of, because it's so, when you see those really good one-man shows that are so engaging and you're just hanging off every word that the actor is saying, it's, it's, it's, what I was reminded of in watching this, again, and I don't watch this very often, but, um, just watching it for this.

349
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.660
I was just, I was worried, I'd think, oh yes, that was very good.

350
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:38.759
But I was equally, if not more blown away than when I 1st saw it and subsequent viewers.

351
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.440
Each time a little more.

352
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.359
Maybe.

353
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:43.980
I mean, I always loved this story.

354
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.099
I loved it from the moment I 1st saw it, I was blown away.

355
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:54.480
But every time I watch it, I find something more to enjoy or to be surprised by.

356
00:29:54.539 --> 00:30:00.240
There are all these little moments throughout it that you don't quite catch the 1st or 2nd or 3rd time.

357
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:05.160
These nuances in what he does or the way it's directed.

358
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:34.680
What I was astounded was how early we finished the first time through, that there's quite a lot of the episode to go, and then the episode speeds up and has this weird deconstructed way of continuing to tell the same story, which I think is really remarkable.

359
00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:36.660
Yeah, yeah.

360
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:47.160
I mean, my my stomach rises in my in my chest when he's reciting off longer and longer and longer time frames.

361
00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:52.619
You just feel sick at this thought that it's just going on for such a long period of time.

362
00:30:52.680 --> 00:31:12.539
And the way it speeds up, like each time you come to that statement where it's 7000 years, 12,000 years, one, you know, whatever, whatever numbers are. the editing is faster and faster and faster as we get through it and the way you also then get the building of that, the last sequence at the end about the bird being built in a way almost word by word.

363
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:16.980
It is not quite word by word, but it's almost word by word, but in a way that you can still perfectly understand what he's saying.

364
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:20.039
It's not just a random sequence, it's a word, it's glued together.

365
00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:29.759
It is so clever and there is so much time, I suspect, has been spent on that 2 minute, 3 minute sequence with how long it is. remarkable.

366
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.039
And it's still edited.

367
00:31:32.099 --> 00:31:43.680
Like, like, it was, it was, they gave it a longer episode running time and they still had to cut it because they didn't have enough room in the schedule for, for everything.

368
00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.559
There are whole scenes that were excised.

369
00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:51.960
Is it the best edited bit of Doctor Who, necessarily the best edited?

370
00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:53.759
Bit of who ever?

371
00:31:53.819 --> 00:32:00.599
I was actually surprised how late in the telling, because I'd forgotten how late in the telling we kind of, you know, the revelation comes and what's actually going on.

372
00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:02.759
And it's funny on rewatches.

373
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:08.220
Um, I mean, what you left, what you're left with from your 1st watching is just kind of the emotional whack of it.

374
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:15.420
And then when you actually go back and study, the pacing, the structure, and the rest of it, the actual shape of these things.

375
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:22.380
And so this was only my 2nd watch, but it was, um, knowing having seen it before, albeit, what, 10 years ago, something like that.

376
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:24.660
How do you only watch this twice?

377
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.940
I'm just a terrible Doctor Who fan, James.

378
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:34.859
I probably only watched 3 maximum 4 times and it would be one of my favourites ever.

379
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.720
I've watched this quite a lot I think.

380
00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:44.339
I think the surprising bit is the bit in the middle where nothing very much is happening where he's settled into a kind of rhythm.

381
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.099
He knows how much time he has 58 minutes.

382
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:47.579
You know what I mean?

383
00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:48.299
When he ready is, yeah.

384
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:49.019
If he runs.

385
00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:50.759
It's like 84 minutes at the most.

386
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.920
And he's looking for numbers.

387
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:55.500
He's eating soup for the 1st time.

388
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:56.819
He will be doing that again next week.

389
00:32:57.059 --> 00:33:01.380
And all of that, that sort of very strange thing.

390
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:02.759
Which...

391
00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:05.400
Like, he makes an accommodation.

392
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:08.640
There's time for sleep, he says, and work and stuff.

393
00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:12.720
That actually is a little bit like Moffatt is writing about grief, I think.

394
00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:34.680
You know, there's sleep and work and stuff, but every 85 minutes. you're reminded there's the veil, you know, like, so perhaps even even though very little of the dialogue is about grief, if encounters with the veil are about that, then maybe there's hints of it in there, right?

395
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:35.819
He claims it's not.

396
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:54.240
But also he has also gone on record, I believe, is saying it was a direct response to the criticisms he got for the lack of emotional depth in the middle of series 6 with the baby spew kidnap hotline.

397
00:33:55.019 --> 00:34:03.539
Which, yeah, like you just kind of had to move on to the next the next episode. because it was in the middle of a season and that's how you deal with it.

398
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:13.980
And he went, oh, I want to deep deeper into the emotional kind of responses of the lead character, to losing his best friend.

399
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:15.119
Yeah.

400
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:32.760
I mean, he has always been capable, I think, of, you know, while being clever, and while being less interested in guest characters and one-off characters and stuff than Russell is, most of this season is things happening to people we know, he has been capable of moving us, I think.

401
00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:39.360
I still think, like the end of the Big Bang, where Amy stands up at the wedding and demands that the doctor show up.

402
00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:46.619
You know, like all of that stuff, that the doctor sitting by her bed by Amelia's bed and saying goodbye to her.

403
00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:51.659
All of that and stuff, he's absolutely capable of creating emotional scenes.

404
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:53.280
He does it devastatingly well.

405
00:34:53.340 --> 00:35:02.579
And sometimes, you know, he uses his reveals in order to do that in order to sort of pack an emotional punch.

406
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:04.679
I think he is very good at that stuff.

407
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:16.380
But, like, what I like about this is that we don't land on the side that the doctor lands on because, because this is a classic fridging in some ways, isn't it?

408
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:27.659
Like you have a female character who dies and the principal interest that we have in that is the man's reaction, right?

409
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:35.639
And so then you have Clara coming back and making it not a fridging because Clara is the focus of hell bent.

410
00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:40.500
She is the one listening to the doctor's story.

411
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:44.639
You know, she's the one who goes off, steals a Tartisan, goes off to explore the world.

412
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:48.539
She's the main character of that, and she's the one who says no.

413
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:50.880
And she says it in Face the Raven.

414
00:35:50.940 --> 00:35:55.079
She says, you're gonna do some stupid things because you're a massive idiot.

415
00:35:55.139 --> 00:35:56.280
Don't do them.

416
00:35:56.340 --> 00:35:57.719
Don't do them in my name.

417
00:35:57.780 --> 00:35:58.980
And then he does anyway.

418
00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:03.239
Well, he doesn't really because he doesn't kill anyone.

419
00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:05.039
Like he's really furious.

420
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:10.380
He's going to tear up Trap Street and all sorts of things and he doesn't do anything like that.

421
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:28.139
So it's the usual Moffat thing of taking what looks like is going to be a sort of terrible story, you know, Santa goes on about the possible rape revenge story that we're going to get in a good man goes to war and that we don't get.

422
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:31.679
We get a different story and the same things happening here.

423
00:36:31.739 --> 00:36:34.440
It looks like it's going to be a fridging and it absolutely isn't.

424
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:36.840
It's a fridging followed by a thoring.

425
00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:37.920
Yeah.

426
00:36:38.219 --> 00:37:05.099
Do you know one of the sequences that I, one of the just the lines of dialogue that I found most devastating about it in it was, I can't remember the exact time frame, but after he's zapped by the creature in the 1st time, that we see that, in this completely calm voice, he says, I worked out that in my current condition, it'll take me a day and a half crawl back up to the top of the tower, that was just awful.

427
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:12.059
But he also says, and I think I've got a day and a half left as well. because there's that thing, it's just awful.

428
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:18.119
Moffat helps himself to some time-lord law for people who care about those things, right?

429
00:37:18.179 --> 00:37:22.199
And so it takes time lords a long time to die.

430
00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:23.940
And then we get the funny line.

431
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:32.519
That's why they like to go home and die among their people because they won't bury them to, you know, like, and so we get a gag, you know, and...

432
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:33.119
Yeah, exactly, yeah.

433
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:37.500
But it's the same as Bob Holmes going, why would the brigadier come to the cottage hospital?

434
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:40.500
I know, let's say the doctor has 2 hearts, you know?

435
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:43.800
Like, you just make the thing up for the purposes of the story.

436
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:45.059
Here's some time lord stuff.

437
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:50.280
But there's something very elegant about him saying that because every cell of the Time Lord's body, he's desperately trying to regenerate.

438
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:50.880
Yeah.

439
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:53.579
But don't you remember that the Daleks were like that as well?

440
00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:56.940
The daleks were functionally immortal in The Witch is Familiar.

441
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.039
They can't be killed because they're so desperate to live.

442
00:37:59.099 --> 00:38:02.400
So it's another thing that he's done sort of before.

443
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:07.139
You mentioned Santa for before, Rob, but one of the funniest things.

444
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:17.340
The one of the funniest things she says about this is it's a story about grumpy, grey-haired Scotsman doing the same things over and over and over again.

445
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:27.960
And so it's the sort of thing that Stephen Moffatt is likely to write after being the Doctor Who writer who has written more Doctor Who than any other one in history.

446
00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:29.579
Is it his the writer's tale?

447
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:30.420
For now.

448
00:38:30.539 --> 00:38:31.260
It's me.

449
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:37.079
I'm doing the thing again, there'll be a radical reversal and it will all be tiny, whiny, and you'll be devastated.

450
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:38.099
Youll laugh, you'll cry.

451
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:39.659
And he's been doing that for so long.

452
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:42.900
He's been doing it since, well, Chris for fatal death, really.

453
00:38:43.019 --> 00:38:44.400
Exactly.

454
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:50.940
And so it's the sort of thing that he writes as part of his farewell tour.

455
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:55.139
And, and, you know, Capoldi's doctor's always been a bit more forty, I think.

456
00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:07.320
Yeah, it's interesting because, um, And I'm the least qualified person here to suggest this because, you know, watch it once and then, you know, that's I'm kind of largely done.

457
00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:31.260
But, um, But with the 11th doctor, who he, he, he has River Song pitch the idea of the Moffatt doctor to the 10th doctor in Science of Library, Forest of the Dead, and what, so the, his idea of what the, this, and this is, must been his idea of the doctor since he started thinking about what his doctor would be like, and that's the Matt Smith doctor.

458
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:50.099
But then, uh, Peter Powley's doctor, um, is kind of, unlike Tenant, who was just a continuation, ten is a continuation of nine, but 12 is definitely not a continuation of that kind of his plan A of what his kind of, you know, his his doctor would be like.

459
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:58.739
So how this doctor is Moffat, really. in a way, in a way that the 11th doctor is a doctor is not.

460
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.739
So yeah, that totally stands up.

461
00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:04.380
This is Moffat as much as it is the doctor, I think.

462
00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:11.760
I think I think the reason that his 1st doctor is a child, though, is a child, how old is he?

463
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:14.219
12 Rivers says.

464
00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:17.639
Anyway. face of a 12-year-old, I think.

465
00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:40.559
Um, is because one of the things that he's always, you know, that his male characters have often done is be giant children, you know, that and so we kind of make that real in the personality of the of the doctor and, you know, it's telling that the closest thing he has to a sexual partner is significantly older and more experienced than him.

466
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:49.679
So, I mean, there are elements of Moffatt there in that, you know, the smartest man in the room and like a slightly bad guy as well.

467
00:40:49.739 --> 00:41:06.239
Like so much of what Moffatt writes has been about whether he's a, you know, it's not just the 12th doctor who wonders whether he's a good man or not. like right back from joking apart, where Moffatt writes a sitcom about the breakdown of his 1st marriage.

468
00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:17.760
And it looks like the reason that the marriage broke down is because she cheated on him, but it becomes clear throughout the series that it broke down because he's just insufferable. to be around.

469
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:35.340
So I kind of think that that both of Russell's doctors are Russell in some way, everything's marvellous and wonderful, but there's a kind of deep cynicism underneath that you rarely get to see that tenants doctor is a performance in silence in the library.

470
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:44.820
Remember, there's a moment where River's able to get him to just cut it out for a 2nd and then he's back on and he's being the doctor.

471
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:45.840
It's a performance.

472
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:54.420
Whereas from off of the doctor is a thing you aspire to be, I think, and he even the doctor himself aspires to be that and falls short of it.

473
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.559
He doesn't wear the velvet jacket next week because he's not.

474
00:41:58.920 --> 00:41:59.880
Not the doctor. not the doctor.

475
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:01.500
Well, not feeling like the doctor or something.

476
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:18.960
The other thing about this episode is that, um, it's the doctor, although he's got an audience, he doesn't.

477
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:20.940
This is the doctor unguarded.

478
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.400
You know, there's no one to there is no one to perform to.

479
00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:34.440
Other than to himself, really, you know, because, you know, it's it's an incredibly internal peace, and he's got the veil, who's the only other real tangible person there.

480
00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:40.380
But this is the, this is the Dr. Sands audience despite all the, the artifice of it.

481
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:48.659
So this is this is the doctor unguarded, uh, in a way that you won't get him unguarded in a, I don't know, in a based under siege story, for example.

482
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:55.559
It's the implication, though, in the next episode, the time loads we're watching every single 2nd of that for 4500000000 years.

483
00:42:55.619 --> 00:42:58.800
Oh, no, that shoots my, that shoots that completely out of water.

484
00:42:58.860 --> 00:42:59.280
Good point.

485
00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:03.000
Actually, yeah, because yeah, oh, yeah, because if they are, if they are.

486
00:43:03.059 --> 00:43:04.739
They're aware of what is what he was saying.

487
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:06.360
I think he assumes he's being watched, yeah.

488
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:13.500
Yeah, except except that the only time, like the veil is in a way, the only actual tangible audience that he has.

489
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:22.380
After he gives that opening speech, if you think because she's dead, I'm weak, you know, that speech, after that, he is basically talking to himself.

490
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:26.280
He's talking to himself or to Clara inside the Tartars, all of that sort of thing.

491
00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:33.840
And then the big doctor-ish moment where he tells the story and starts to name drop historical figures, he's saying it to the veil, isn't he?

492
00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:35.400
He's telling that...

493
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:36.900
He's telling the sort of...

494
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:38.400
He's telling what his plan is.

495
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:39.719
Is the veil their camera?

496
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.219
The veil is the cameraman.

497
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.659
I mean, the veil is the camera.

498
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:43.800
You can see him.

499
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:46.920
Oh, and it's on the camera is on the telly.

500
00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:47.280
Yeah.

501
00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:53.460
And also when he, because he does, he does turn up a galfer at the end and give the message to the boy, you know, tell them I came the long way around.

502
00:43:53.519 --> 00:44:01.079
So actually, yeah, I think you might be right, James, there is a way of reading this where you could say, you know, apart from the stuff in his mind palace.

503
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:05.699
Everything else is an act of intimidation towards the timeboards.

504
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.659
You've put the wrong guy in the bottle, you know.

505
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:11.519
There's one thing you never put in a trap.

506
00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:18.300
Isn't the great, isn't the long way round line a great throwback to the girl in the fireplace?

507
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:19.079
Yeah.

508
00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:25.500
Well, and it is, in fact, the season ends with Clara saying she'll go back to Galafray, to be put packet.

509
00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:26.820
The long way around, the long way around.

510
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.039
And of course, it's referenced in Day of the Doctor as well.

511
00:44:29.099 --> 00:44:31.619
Yeah, yeah, and he is, and this is him.

512
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:36.719
This is him going home the long way around, but to smash stuff up. you know.

513
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:37.679
Yeah, yeah.

514
00:44:38.219 --> 00:44:58.199
I can't overstate my reaction to this episode, and it's brilliance, mainly because of its tone, and it's something that I've mentioned many times on this podcast, and to anyone who will listen at other times, about the lot, yeah, a lot of my issue with. yes exactly.

515
00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:19.019
A lot of my issue with, certainly the, well, a lot of the modern era, but also, particularly the Russell era, which is what I'm kind of dreading returning, is a sort of a levity which is a superficiality about so much, it's too great a percentage of the storyline, the acting, the performances and the dialogue is at a superficial level.

516
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:20.280
It feels superficial.

517
00:45:20.340 --> 00:45:32.280
This, I'm not saying that every Doctor Who episode should be as dark and serious as this one is, but it's, I think it is worth saying that this is a great example, as was things like blink or midnight.

518
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:34.679
Or, you know, the girl in the fireplace.

519
00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:44.280
They're great examples of what I believe the show could be, and everyone we know raves and raves about those episodes.

520
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:50.639
And yet why are those few and far between rather than the staple?

521
00:45:50.699 --> 00:46:03.960
Instead, the staple is, and I think what's going to happen in the coming years, is the staple is silly runarounds with, you know, goofy over the top performances where, yes, there's some fun and it's all entertaining.

522
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:07.199
I can't deny that, but it's just so fluffy.

523
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:09.840
Why isn't it more likely?

524
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:18.179
I'm not, as I said, not every episode can be like this, and you certainly can't, you need a buildup to get to an episode like this, but there's just so much trash.

525
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:20.400
Well, I don't think it's trash.

526
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:23.760
I think and I don't think Doctor Who has ever really...

527
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:25.380
Well, trash is not fair. sorry, trash is not fair.

528
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.039
Trash is not fair.

529
00:46:26.099 --> 00:46:28.260
I just don't think Doctor Who has ever been like that.

530
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:29.219
I think that's...

531
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:33.780
What you're talking about in the dawn of time back in the day. at any point has it been like that?

532
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.280
Yeah, of course it's been exactly like that.

533
00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:40.619
Look at look at the look at the period from from 1970 to 1978.

534
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:42.659
Um, you know, 1977.

535
00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:44.820
That period is exactly like that.

536
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:46.440
You've got the seriousness.

537
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:49.380
I mean, just thinking of something like Terror of the Zygons or the Green Death or whatever.

538
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:50.159
Yes, there's great.

539
00:46:50.219 --> 00:46:57.119
There's some funny lines of dialogue in there, which lighten it up, but otherwise it's a, it's a serious story.

540
00:46:57.179 --> 00:47:01.019
I think this is a function of how old we were when we...

541
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:04.500
No, no, I don't think it is, because then why isn't it?

542
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:10.679
Then why is it that I can go back and watch something else that I might have enjoyed and think, 0 my god, that's rubbish.

543
00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:14.880
Whereas I can go back and watch something I tear of those items, which I saw when I was 7 or 8 years old for the 1st time.

544
00:47:14.940 --> 00:47:18.719
And still think, wow, this is moody, this is great.

545
00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:22.019
This is this is got a flavour. silly and preposterous.

546
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:23.579
No, no, but that's the thing.

547
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:28.980
I think that that's where I think we disagree, is that, is that, yes, of course it's silly and preposterous, isn't it?

548
00:47:28.980 --> 00:47:33.420
There are these slimy monsters living under Loch Ness, and they can duplicate themselves into human form, blah, blah, blah.

549
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:34.260
Obviously that's ridiculous.

550
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:36.900
But they're also playing it for laughs as well.

551
00:47:37.019 --> 00:47:37.980
They're not playing.

552
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:38.699
I think John.

553
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:40.440
They are not playing.

554
00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:41.400
They are not playing.

555
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:44.940
The bagpipe practice next door.

556
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:45.719
Yeah.

557
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:48.239
Yeah, of course.

558
00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:51.000
Yeah, but that's a funny line of dialogue.

559
00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:54.360
That's a lighter moment in something that otherwise is being.

560
00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:57.300
Well, that's her taking the phone learning that Harry's been shot.

561
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.380
And Harry's been shot.

562
00:47:58.440 --> 00:47:59.099
Exactly.

563
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:00.179
But you know what I mean?

564
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:11.699
Like, and I think that that's, that's, it's a regrettable decision for me that they've just, they decided when they brought the show back to basically lean into the silliness and say, yes, the whole situation with Doctor Who is preposterous.

565
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:18.420
So let's not try and pretend otherwise because, you know, we want to be taken seriously as a television program.

566
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:34.920
If we think that the program, you know, we'll just be those nerdy, geeky Doctor Who fans back in the 70s and 80s who treated this, sometimes poorly made television show, desperately, seriously, when everybody else in the world was laughing at it, and I think they're still traumatised by being laughed at when they were a kid for liking Doctor Who.

567
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:35.519
I think that's sad.

568
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:44.340
Well, let me just say, I think that this season more than any other season of the new series actually does more or less what you want.

569
00:48:44.460 --> 00:48:46.800
Yeah, well, the Moffatt era generally does.

570
00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:57.960
The Moffat is like the inverse for me of the RTD era, the Moffat era is tonally, much, much more what I want, apart from the occasional backslide.

571
00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:01.679
And the backslides get worse, I think, as the progressors.

572
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:05.579
I think the Matt Smith area particularly represents that tone that I'm going for.

573
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:14.099
When it comes back and people find out it's frothy and silly and a bit clunky in places, they're going to be surprised, but it's like, well, no, it twas ever thus.

574
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:20.519
But I don't think I've got the emotional stamina for heaven sent every week.

575
00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:22.260
Oh, I agree with that.

576
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.119
They don't have to be haven't seen, no.

577
00:49:24.179 --> 00:49:24.840
Yeah.

578
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:28.860
But, um, yeah, but I, I, I like the froth.

579
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:39.059
I do stand by in my statement that I think Stephen Moffat is craft-wise, the finest writer who have ever written the Doctor Who.

580
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:43.380
I think I don't love it when he's in when he's in charge of the boat, though.

581
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:55.980
Um, because I kind of find just, um, uh, there was a, there was a point in the Matt Smith era when I realised, oh, this series that I'm now watching is kind of a Shaggy Dog story in that it's not, it's not going anywhere, really.

582
00:49:56.039 --> 00:50:12.420
What I did like about the Russell T. Davis era was the sense of graduation from series to series where you clear the board, then you bring back the Daleks, then you bring back the master, then, you know, there is some sense, there is some sense of escalation. natural escalation to it.

583
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:28.260
But with Moffatira, again, he is the finest writer to have written for Doctor Who, but there is kind of, yeah, does have a certain habit of kind of having all these wonderful little payoffs, detail and details and character payoffs.

584
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:43.559
But then with the kind of the larger kind of season sized or whatever, archtype payoffs, a habit of over-promising and under delivering, just in terms of, this is giving a sense of direction of where this series is going.

585
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:50.039
Like, the end of the day of the doctor, I thought it was going to be, you know, Doctor Who would become the search for Califre, um, then it doesn't.

586
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:51.780
And now we have now we have the hybrid.

587
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:19.079
Well, that's four and a half CVDs.

588
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:19.739
We'll never get back.

589
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:24.659
We gonna head off now, but we'll see you next week for the final denouement in Hellbends.

590
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:42.000
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, flight throughentirety.com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

591
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:47.579
Until next time, sometimes it's best to just buy some lilies. and a sympathy card.

592
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:49.860
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

593
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:50.820
Good night.

594
00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:51.960
Bye bye.

595
00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:52.739
See you.

596
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:03.179
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Modernly, Simon Moore, James Selwood, and Robert Valentine.

597
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:05.340
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

598
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:11.760
This episode, The Time on Him, was recorded on the 12th of November 2023 and released on the 26th of November.

599
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:25.500
This episode is being released mere hours after the first of the Doctor Who anniversary specials, and in a few hours' time, will be releasing the first episode of our new Doctor Who Flashcast, the second great and bountiful human empire.

600
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:32.699
To listen to the episode, and for more information, check us out at the 2nd Great and BountifulHuman Empire.com.

601
00:52:34.500 --> 00:52:43.559
Now, just with the title, um, I, I, I kind of think that Hellbent Heaven sent is far in the wrong order.

602
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:52.920
Yeah, it, yeah, no, Hellbent Heaven sent, just as 2 titles, just as an, and as a mnemonic, just work way back.

603
00:52:52.980 --> 00:52:59.460
I always forget what they're called because heaven, heaven sent hell bent is not a natural. not the natural way to it's not the right way around.

604
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:01.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, as titles.

605
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:02.460
Just yeah.

606
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:03.719
Hellbet heaven sent.

607
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:04.920
I would never ever forget that.

608
00:53:04.980 --> 00:53:06.900
But yeah, they're the wrong way around.

609
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:08.519
But also, you can ask, is it?

610
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:09.900
This is also Hellbent.

611
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:12.360
He's hell bent on getting out.

612
00:53:12.420 --> 00:53:14.340
He's held that he's having sense.

613
00:53:14.340 --> 00:53:15.239
In the next episode.

614
00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:16.320
Exactly.

615
00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:18.119
Like, yeah.

616
00:53:19.139 --> 00:53:21.360
I love that line about hell.

617
00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:23.940
I'm not afraid of hell. just heaven for bad people.

618
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:25.019
Heaven forbad.

619
00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:26.940
That sounds great.

620
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:33.239
I think before we finish up, there's another great line that we haven't touched on and that's he's finally run out of corridor.

621
00:53:33.300 --> 00:53:36.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah That is a perfect summary of that.

622
00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:38.880
A perfect sort of meta summary of the entire show.

623
00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:51.659
Can I just do a particular shout out for Rachel Tallalay, though, before we finish up and I know her name has been mentioned many times on this podcast before as one of the best Doctor Who directors of the modern era and therefore ever.

624
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:58.440
But I didn't know, and I don't know whether this has been discussed before and I've just not, I've just been asleep when I've been listening to the podcast back.

625
00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:09.360
But I didn't realise that she had effectively been sent to direct a prison in the United States for a 3rd her 3rd film, which was a flop, right?

626
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:10.079
Oh, okay.

627
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:13.320
As sometimes these things are tank girl.

628
00:54:13.380 --> 00:54:13.739
T Girl.

629
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:14.519
Yeah, I remember that.

630
00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:23.280
And there's a great book that my husband pointed out to me yesterday that he's just literally been reading called Women versus Hollywood.

631
00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:25.440
Oh, wow. by Helena O'Hara.

632
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:29.039
And I know that this is not a 2nd episode and so we're not allowed to give recommendations, but I'm going to.

633
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:29.880
I don't care.

634
00:54:29.940 --> 00:54:33.119
Because it is a new, it is a new book.

635
00:54:33.179 --> 00:54:44.519
And it's basically just a book about the fact that male directors get forgiven for their failures, you know, they go to direct jail and they're not allowed to make anything for 12 months, but then they come back and they and they can do their next project.

636
00:54:44.579 --> 00:54:52.679
Whereas Hollywood is littered with all of these women who, you know, they make stuff and then there's a failure as these things happen.

637
00:54:52.739 --> 00:54:57.719
And then basically that's the end of their career or it takes them years and years and years and years and years.

638
00:54:57.780 --> 00:54:59.699
Who directed Hurt Locker?

639
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:01.559
Catherine Bigelow.

640
00:55:01.619 --> 00:55:04.860
Yes, Catherine Bigelow had the same thing happen to her.

641
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:10.440
She was like, I think 7 years or something between 2 features because one was not as successful as it might have been.

642
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:18.960
And so it's just an interesting way about an interesting book about how gender still plays an important role in opportunities in Hollywood.

643
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:19.619
So look it up.

644
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:21.119
It actually destroyed her career.

645
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:22.500
It destroyed her career.

646
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:24.900
Like, I mean, Tango is not a bad film.

647
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:26.579
It flopped, but it's not a bad film.

648
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.500
It might not be into everybody's taste.

649
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.440
But that destroyed her film career.

650
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:32.940
She doesn't work in film anymore.

651
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:42.300
She's a very successful and sought after television director, but she's never really been able to break back into film in Hollywood.

652
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:43.679
Yes.

653
00:55:43.739 --> 00:55:45.119
And it's just, yes, exactly.

654
00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:51.420
But although, I mean, I'm sure if she decided, I mean, she changed career track to TV because they would have her and she was sick of trying.

655
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:55.920
The other, who knows, she could probably, I suspect she could probably now try and make a feature film.

656
00:55:55.980 --> 00:55:57.179
So it's not the fact that they can never go back.

657
00:55:57.239 --> 00:56:01.679
It's the fact that it'll take a lot longer for them to be allowed to have another go.

658
00:56:01.739 --> 00:56:09.179
The interesting thing, though, is in this book, Doctor Who is explicitly name checked as one of the best things she's done on television.

659
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:14.219
And I think that's great that we are in the top. tier of her creative output.

660
00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:15.480
Yeah.

661
00:56:16.500 --> 00:56:19.440
And that's the out.

662
00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:21.300
I think that's definitely the out, don't you?

663
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:22.679
Yeah, so great.

664
00:56:22.739 --> 00:56:23.699
She's just now.

665
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:25.320
Next year, but enough in time.

666
00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:29.159
But also the 2nd episode, Hellbent, yes, which should be called Heaven Sent.

667
00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:29.880
Hellbent.

668
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:35.880
Hellbent, I think, is a weaker story, but it is still gripping and incredible all the way through because of her.

669
00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:37.920
I was thinking about that this morning when I was watching.

670
00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:43.860
I was thinking, yeah, with a less good director, that episode would be middling to slightly painful.

671
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:50.579
And instead, even though there are things that I don't like about it from a script point of view, I think as a production, it is fantastic.

672
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:52.139
And it's her.

673
00:56:52.139 --> 00:56:52.679
Like her.

674
00:56:52.739 --> 00:56:58.199
Early scene, which, you know, that's the Shaggy Dog story.

675
00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:04.079
You know, the time where the man came and he forced the president to resign without even getting up.

676
00:57:04.139 --> 00:57:05.760
Yes, you know, his chair.

677
00:57:05.820 --> 00:57:10.019
And, you know, people keep coming and see him and there's all these Western, like it's so weird.

678
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:14.940
And like partly it's just because Capoldi's telling the story to Clara.

679
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:20.099
The doctors tell like the story to Clara and they're in Nevada and so the whole thing looks like a Western.

680
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:21.659
Yes, yes, yes.

681
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:23.519
Otherwise known as Spain, I suspect.

682
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:25.800
California Spain.

683
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:26.940
California Spain.

684
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:30.360
Yeah, I think Nevada is probably in the Canary Islands.

685
00:57:30.780 --> 00:57:31.980
Yeah, Nevada is definitely Spain.

686
00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:34.500
Yeah, they're all the same. obviously it's just over the next hill.

687
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.260
I think they're just down the road from truth or consequences.

688
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.239
Oh, probably.

689
00:57:39.300 --> 00:57:41.039
Also a real place.

690
00:57:41.099 --> 00:57:42.179
Yes.

691
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:43.500
We looked it up.

692
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.840
You know what you could do?

693
00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:54.000
Well, you could put all of the non- like episode talk after as the tag for like half an hour.

694
00:57:54.059 --> 00:57:54.900
The longest tag.

695
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:56.280
The tag is longer than the episode.

696
00:57:56.340 --> 00:58:00.420
Well, I was very disappointed about the poor length of tag, I think, in the last episode.

697
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:02.699
It was only like 2 minutes, as opposed to 5 minutes.

698
00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:03.360
What was it?

699
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:04.019
I can't remember.

700
00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:06.119
It was... what did you put out last week?

701
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:08.940
I got inversions.

702
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:09.719
What did we talk about?

703
00:58:09.780 --> 00:58:10.739
I can even remember.

704
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:11.460
I can't remember.

705
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:13.559
Sometimes someone says, Actually, the episode maybe.

706
00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:20.880
And sometimes someone, sometimes people start talking about their personal lives in like a, do you know what I mean?

707
00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:26.519
Like, that's often the tag is, uh, someone complaining about something or...

708
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:27.599
Something in their lives.

709
00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:28.380
Yeah, that's right.

710
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:30.179
It's kind of like, all right, we'll cut that there then.

711
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:30.599
Yeah.