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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:13:42

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that's been flogging the same old

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shtick now for nearly a billion years.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm Rob.

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Well, everyone else has been given the week off, and so this week

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it's just Capaldi, Moffatt, Gold, and Talalay here to show us

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exactly what they're capable of.

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Let's work out what that is as we discuss heaven sent.

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So, this is Moffat kind of operating on hard mode, isn't it?

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This is him showing us what he can do, as he's on the way out the

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door.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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In fact, you know, 1st of all, thanks for having me on, by the way

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because there's been really a great podcast to kind of get me

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through the pandemic and stuff.

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But what I'm going to do.

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I'm going to mention Sandepa straight off the bat, because, um

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Sandra says about this one, that, um, it's a conscious exercise in

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being brilliant on Moffatt's part, rather than having to be

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brilliant because of production difficulties.

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It's, it's him kind of, you know, giving a, like a wilful

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demonstration of his kind of craft and his talent at a point where

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he's kind of, he's leaving the show and he's kind of saying the

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last things he's got to say about Doctor Who.

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And someone, I hadn't seen this, I think, since broadcast.

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So I kind of, it was a kind of surprise and a reminder of all the

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uh, you know, Moffatt's fondness for voiceover and hero moments.

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And this is an episode of voiceover and hero moments, really.

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So, uh, but yeah, I think it's Moffatt saying, you know, I'm

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leaving soon.

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I kind of know I am.

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And this is how terrific I can be.

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They've convinced me to stay. hasn't happened yet.

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So I think it's more about that than it is about grief.

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And we'll talk a little bit more about grief, but I think that it

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is essentially a formal exercise.

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And so the constraints that he's placed on himself.

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He's allowing himself a few seconds of Jenna actually speaking, but

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otherwise there's no one else who has any lines and there's only

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Capaldi and the veil.

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There's no timey whiminess, everything happens in chronological

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order, however much it might not seem like that, everything

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happens in chronological order.

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And that's a constraint.

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I think that he places on himself because he's so well known for

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all of that sort of thing.

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There might be any timing, why I mean it's in the way that this

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story unfolds from that point of view, but I think there's a great

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big bit of timey why menace, the fact that it takes 4.5000000

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years, whatever it is, to unfold.

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I think that's the thing that is the most gut wrenching thing

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about the entire episode is just the unimaginable amount of time

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that you think is passed.

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And I think he is using time, but in a different way to how he's

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used it before.

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Yeah.

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So we think that he's come straight from Trap Street at the

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beginning of the episode, but it has in fact already been 7000

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years.

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Yes.

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But we're given hints of that because you see, you're given hints

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that you can see when you watch it for the 2nd time.

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But when you're watching it for the 1st time, you do think he's

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come straight from Trap Street.

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I think it's so beautiful.

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And you just assume that, you know, things like the drying clothes

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on the rack in that room are just there because, you know, oh, we

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were in this weird castle that rotates.

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So of course there's going to be a spare set of the doctor's

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costume.

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One imagines that the very 1st time he's what he just goes around

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the rest of it in his underwear or something.

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All wet clothes.

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Well, no, he has to leave the wet clothes.

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Hanging there for the next for the 2nd one to go.

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Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

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We don't need to think about that.

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It doesn't need to be a time loop for him to do the same thing

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each time as well because he is the same person in the same

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circumstance.

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Starting in the same way, exactly the same things.

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Is it exactly the same stimuli?

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So it's not unreasonable.

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He'll actually just keep doing exactly the same thing ever again.

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Have you had the experience editing yourself on a podcast where

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you go, I wish I'd said this and then you hear yourself saying it

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immediately on the recording?

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No, because I always said it.

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No, it's all right.

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Not quite true.

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No, I haven't, but yeah, you do sort of imagine it comes to you as

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you're listening to it, yes.

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Because you're the same person reacting to the same stimulus.

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Yes.

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And so you do the same thing.

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And so you have him repeating this thing, not because it's a time

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loop, but because he's doing it again in the same circumstances.

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So it's actually an interesting study in how, would we make the

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same choices if presented with exactly the same situations with

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exactly the same knowledge that we had, would we just do the same

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thing again?

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We are to believe that over the course of 4.5000000 years, he

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never deviates from that.

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There is a reason, though, and we'll get to that in a minute.

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Yeah, well, I was just kind of thinking about that as I was

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watching it this time because, you know, the skulls pile up, et

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cetera, et cetera. microchanges do occur.

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So, you know, if Jurassic Park has taught us anything.

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It's the really, really there would be changes because of chaos

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theory, but, you know, that doesn't matter.

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So Moffat's actually gone on record as saying that there was a

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different set of clothes at some and that the doctor skipped a

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loop and accidentally didn't pick up the clothes and then they

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were stuck in that loop.

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That's when it starts repeating constantly. in his head cannon as

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the writer.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So the 1st few times might have been slightly different than sort

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of settles into a group.

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Because it becomes clear that he's conscious of it.

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By the end of the loop, he's in a situation where he remembers the

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previous loop.

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Yeah, like as he's worked out that he has to have done it.

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No, he remembers there's like there is a moment there where he

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remembers as he's about to be touched by the veil.

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He remembers everything and it touches his face.

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And so that last sort of, you know, the crawl up the stairs to to

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sacrifice himself to be, like, reincarnated, to come back and do

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it again.

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He, at that moment, that's when he realises too late, to affect

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any change, apart from getting back upstairs, to start again.

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And in some respects, he needs to be aware of it, that he's done

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it so many times because subsequently, you know, he hasn't just

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said that, well, actually, you know, whilst a version of me has

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been doing this for the last 45000000 years, I've only been doing

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it for the last 24 hours or however long he is in that castle.

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Whereas it's quite clear in the subsequent episode, he remembers

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the 4.5 1000000 years.

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He remembers the rep in summer form.

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The other bit of change, of course, and at the risk of starting at

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the end, and moving back to the beginning, is, of course, that

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sequence of dialogue that he has at the end as he's smashing

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through the diamond wall.

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Gradually that speech.

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It gets longer and longer each time he does it.

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And I think that's just a beautiful way of showing the stretch of

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time.

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It's just fantastic.

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Fabulous, isn't it?

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So we get that speech, the one hell of a bird speech. but it takes

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1000000000s of years for it to get to the end of it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And of course, it must be one hell of a bird and that's the moment

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that he kind of breaks through.

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It's like, it's astonishing.

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I think it really is astonishing.

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There is the word puzzle box.

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The word puzzle box appears in the script, just as it appears in

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City of Death.

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It's Moffat's thing he's known for is writing these puzzle box

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scripts.

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These scripts where a whole heap of disparate things seem to

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happen.

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Something happens and we reinterpret what we've already seen and

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everything sort of clicks into place.

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And he's definitely doing that here.

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And so the plot of the episode is a puzzle every bit as much as

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the sort of clockwork castle that Capaldi finds himself trapped

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in.

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Can I just say what an incredibly brave choice this was to make in

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the 1st place.

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We've never had an episode which has been just the doctor as a

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monologue for the entire thing.

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And I know that, as you said, there's a line from Clara or

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whatever, but effectively, it's a 45 minute monologue.

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How easily that could have fallen flat.

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And I think it is worth noting that I think Capaldi is probably

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the only doctor who would have been able to successfully do this.

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Yes, I think Matt Smith would have been very good, and I think Tom

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before he goes off the reservation in the back half of his era

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would also have been good.

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Neither of them would have matched this performance.

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And I think I can't imagine any of the other doctors even getting

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to 50%.

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He is one of, if not, the best actor to ever play this role.

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I think also partly other than the fact he is one of the greatest

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actors who've ever played the role.

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It's an old man's story. to convey the weight of, you know

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unthinkable amounts of time, 1000000000s of years and stuff, but

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in human terms, you know, Peter Capaldi is, you can see the time

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on him, you know, and he's a man who can convey the weight of, you

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know, in human terms, relatable terms, decades of experience, pain

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regret, the rest of it.

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And I think that's another thing that makes it a story that feels

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utterly tailored to him.

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Yeah, I don't think Matt Smith could have done it in the same way

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because as humans watching humans, it wouldn't have worked the way

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it works with Capaldi.

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Things like the visual staff.

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Like, I think Matt Smith plays convincingly as an old man in a

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way.

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An old man in a young man's body.

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But he just doesn't look like it, you know, at all.

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And just, you know, here we have something that's not just a one

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man show.

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We also have, you know, Murray Gold, and we have Rachel Talalay

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and she is doing an incredible job.

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And so she's the one who gives us that face.

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We see his face so much and it conveys all of those things in a

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way that no one else's could have, I think.

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And she's the one who also prevents the creature from being too

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clearly displayed, um, even when it's filling the frame, it's sort

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of slightly out of focus because it's standing behind the doctor

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or you're seeing it from behind the doctor's head or something.

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So it's the best way to shoot those kind of monsters to make sure

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that they, you know, they're quite sure what you're looking at.

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You couldn't you wouldn't be able to successfully draw a picture

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of it afterwards because you never feel like you really got a

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proper look at it.

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It's not the Fisher King.

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For example.

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It needed a horror director to direct it and she is very good at

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that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And she has a wonderful in this story, a control of point of

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view.

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It's incredibly subjective when we 1st arrive.

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And then just the, the, the brilliant shock choices of when to

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divulge in visual information the doctor can't see and when to

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keep it utterly from his point of view.

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And yeah, and I think it's a gift for horror that does it.

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But yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

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But isn't it wonderful too, Rob, the way, you know, we have the

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television screen showing what the creature can see and how, you

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know, the doctor works out.

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Oh, yes, that's actually what the creatures see, so he can work

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out where the creature is and so on.

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Someone like Rachel Talais is so careful in making sure we have

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all of the visual information that we need to be completely sure

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of what's going on.

246
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.159
Confused as to what's going on in a different way, but in terms of

247
00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:04.799
knowing how things relate to each other and what we're supposed to

248
00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.279
be paying attention to, she is quite the genius and head and

249
00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.139
shoulders above many of the other Doctor Who directors.

250
00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:14.820
It's that 1st sequence where the camera is all kind of slightly

251
00:13:14.820 --> 00:13:18.539
rolling in the same direction, like every shot, has the same kind

252
00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:22.799
of camera movement, and it's a sort of very gentle rotation, and

253
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:29.100
you see the static on the TV screen, which is what appears when

254
00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:33.899
the creature has been destroyed, like when it disappears, and we

255
00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:37.320
have the fly, the close-up of the fly, the static.

256
00:13:37.379 --> 00:13:42.299
And the fly is such an incredible detail because, you know, things

257
00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:44.399
that are shot in studios don't have those.

258
00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:49.500
No, you know, a fly puts it in a real space.

259
00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:54.299
It's like, you know, in New Earth, where Russell Drenches, Tenants

260
00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:56.039
and Billy Piper.

261
00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:57.419
Decontamination biscuit.

262
00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.059
Yeah, in order to put them in a real world, you know, cover them

263
00:14:00.059 --> 00:14:00.539
in water.

264
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:03.659
It's less of a studio set if everyone's having sort of liquid port

265
00:14:03.659 --> 00:14:04.259
all over them.

266
00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:05.759
Here we have flies.

267
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:08.700
And all I could think, this is so bad.

268
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:13.320
All I could think of is how insects have improved in how they're

269
00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:15.720
realised in Doctor Who since Nightmare of Eden.

270
00:14:15.779 --> 00:14:18.179
I think you're going to say the Green Dead.

271
00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:21.720
Do you remember that thing that flies out of the projection?

272
00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:23.279
Yes, oh, it's Romana?

273
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:24.659
Just like, is that a fly?

274
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:25.200
What is that?

275
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:26.580
It's a space fly.

276
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.480
And because everything's about death.

277
00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:32.639
Everything there is about there.

278
00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:35.039
The flies, it's like rotting flesh.

279
00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:36.419
Yeah, well that's what she is.

280
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:37.980
That's like that description.

281
00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:40.139
Oh, so that thing is called the veil.

282
00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:44.340
It's plucked from the doctor's nightmares and it's an old woman

283
00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:47.220
who whose body was left outside.

284
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.320
So, you know, in the heat.

285
00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:52.500
It was really hot and it started to smell and they wrapped her in

286
00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:52.799
veils.

287
00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:54.779
Capaldi has a monologue about it.

288
00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.200
So it's a thing that he remembers from his childhood, a nightmare

289
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.320
from his childhood that's been realised and put into the

290
00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:02.639
confession dial with him.

291
00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:05.639
And so it's explicitly about death and decay.

292
00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:10.139
And it's great how the flies then become the harbinger of the

293
00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:10.379
veil.

294
00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:13.740
You don't need to see the veil to know it's that it can't be far

295
00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:14.100
away now.

296
00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:14.460
Yeah.

297
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.039
Yeah, it's really brilliant, isn't it?

298
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:21.899
It's just, a kind of thing that not many people would have thought

299
00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:23.039
to do, I think.

300
00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:26.159
I mean, it may very well be in the script, of course, but it's not

301
00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:27.899
just what's in the script. is how the script is realised.

302
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:32.399
And I think full credit to Murray for, and I suspect this is the

303
00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:34.679
director being clear about what she wants.

304
00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:39.480
But his music is so appropriate for what's going on.

305
00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:41.820
There's nothing bombastic when there shouldn't be.

306
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:46.919
It's so gentle. and just goes to show the kind of music he could

307
00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:48.539
be providing in other episodes.

308
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.700
I mean, I think the, you know, the strings.

309
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.299
Is it cellos and things like cellos and double bases and all of

310
00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:54.539
that.

311
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.360
And there's like the veil has a theme.

312
00:15:57.419 --> 00:15:58.500
The whole place has a thing.

313
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.820
And we only hear the doctor's hero theme when he starts telling

314
00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:05.399
the story, the brother's grim story.

315
00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:09.480
And, you know, that obviously leads up to the hell of a bird thing

316
00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:13.379
but it is also the doctor stopping and doing something very doctor

317
00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:16.799
ish for the 1st time or, you know, he's just telling a story.

318
00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:19.919
The brothers Grim were on his darts team.

319
00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:24.779
You know, like it's such a, such a normal Doctor Who thing to do.

320
00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:29.460
And that's when we get to hear Capaldi's hero theme as he's taking

321
00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:34.440
those steps towards what he does to get through the Asbantium

322
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:36.960
space wall. thing, yeah.

323
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:41.940
I love the Sherlock aspect, which we 1st see when he's, you know

324
00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:44.519
falling when he's jumped out of the through the window, having

325
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:45.419
thrown the chair through.

326
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.320
We see him in the TARDIS console room, working it all out in what

327
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.779
is, whatever, the 7 odd seconds or something that takes me four.

328
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:53.399
He goes to his mind palace.

329
00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:54.539
It's just mind palace.

330
00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:54.960
Exactly.

331
00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:55.259
Yes.

332
00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:55.799
Yeah, yeah.

333
00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:56.759
Exactly.

334
00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:59.639
And we can sort of imagine that, but it is also very, it is very

335
00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.100
suggestive of Sherlock, the way, you know, oh, that's why he threw

336
00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:05.579
the chair through the window because he wanted to work out how far

337
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:06.420
it was going to fall.

338
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:09.180
And all the other aspects about that is.

339
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.519
It's so beautifully done and you can sort of imagine that

340
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.319
happening in all the other situations where the doctor is

341
00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:14.220
frantically working things out.

342
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:18.240
In fact, the really, really interesting thing is because this is

343
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.720
not just, look, what a great actor I've cast as the doctor.

344
00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:25.980
It is, and let's be fair, Moffatt saying, look how incredibly

345
00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:26.819
clever I am.

346
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.539
And so there's all these details like dropping the eyeglass

347
00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:34.200
dropping the petal on the lily, all of which then get

348
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:38.460
reinterpreted as part of him working out what the environment is

349
00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:41.640
like, how long it is before he's likely to fall, what the gravity

350
00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.079
is like, all of that sort of stuff.

351
00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:47.099
And so all of these little details are then reinterpreted as part

352
00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:48.299
of the doctor being clever.

353
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.700
But that's Moffatt's normal trick, isn't it?

354
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:51.119
Yes.

355
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:55.859
He includes details and then we learn what they were important.

356
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:56.640
Yeah.

357
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:59.279
But the other thing is, though, that it's all done.

358
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:00.299
It's not just that.

359
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.319
It's also the fact that then it's all executed so just beautifully

360
00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:07.319
whilst it is him showing off and how clever he is.

361
00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:09.240
And then, you know, Capaldi's showing off about how great an

362
00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.180
accurate is and talent showing off how great a director she is, you

363
00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:14.640
don't get a sense that anyone's actually showing off, they're just

364
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:15.539
naturally brilliant.

365
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.299
And I think that's just such a rare commodity.

366
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.660
I think they're showing off Oh, no, I'm not saying, no, they're

367
00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:22.019
showing off.

368
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:22.619
They can.

369
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.019
But they can, but they're showing off successfully in that, you

370
00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:26.700
know, the worst thing is when someone shows off and it doesn't

371
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:27.000
quite work.

372
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:27.720
Yeah, yeah.

373
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.660
Yeah, or you have a character pointing out how clever that was.

374
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.099
Yeah, but they don't do that.

375
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:32.940
There you go.

376
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.099
Well, that's that maybe that's the fortunate thing about not

377
00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:35.940
having any other characters.

378
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.660
Yeah, well, I mean, but the thing about Para is that she wouldn't

379
00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:41.339
tell the doctor how clever.

380
00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:45.359
Yeah, none of the best companions would, I think.

381
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.720
Going back to what you guys were talking about in the horror

382
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.240
aspects of it, There are so many sort of horror tropes.

383
00:19:03.299 --> 00:19:05.940
There's that word that are sort of littered throughout it that has

384
00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:08.819
just handled so well, you know, the shock of the door opening and

385
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:11.400
then something, the creature's there and the flies coming and

386
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.279
never quite sure what's happening next norts around the next

387
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:14.640
corner.

388
00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:18.839
Those things, which are all textbook techniques in the horror

389
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:22.140
genre, are all used so well and so successfully, and you never

390
00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.660
feel like, oh, this is cliche, oh, they're just doing this.

391
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.059
And I think it could have so easily been that.

392
00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:28.680
It could have so easily been tiresome.

393
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:29.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

394
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:34.259
Yeah, I was wrecking my brains because this episode has always

395
00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:35.279
reminded me of something.

396
00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:37.799
Obviously, texture, they actually mentioned it's the Brothers

397
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:39.720
Grimm's The Shepherd Boy.

398
00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:42.240
And Moffatt's always been had, I think, for Dark Fairy Tale.

399
00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:44.099
But this is always reminded me of something else because it feels

400
00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:47.220
it's, yes, it's wildly original and all that, but it feels within

401
00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:49.740
a tradition and I've been trying to rack my brains as to what it

402
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:51.480
reminds me of and how it works on me.

403
00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:57.000
And I don't even know if I've kind of got to the bottom of other

404
00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.240
things it's like, but one of them, I think, is the Shawshank

405
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.079
Redemption because it's really, it's the story of an escape tunnel

406
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:04.740
being dug.

407
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:10.859
It doesn't work for me either as a story about grief in any way.

408
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:14.460
And technically it's incredible, but the way it does affect me

409
00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:19.619
emotionally is simply that kind of indefatigable hope and

410
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:24.000
perseverance thing, which Shawshank does. which, you know, in

411
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.460
which in the whole big revelation about this, No, no, no, this is

412
00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:29.640
linear and the doctor is just not giving up.

413
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:33.420
That's, for me, where the emotional heft of it comes and what

414
00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:36.299
makes it emotional is literally his perseverance.

415
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:40.140
So I think actually, yeah, it's, yeah, it's Shawshank.

416
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.319
I think that this kind of rings bells for me about.

417
00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:45.420
Yeah, it's interesting you say that.

418
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.359
I'm actually, now you mentioned Shawshank, I entirely agree.

419
00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:51.599
And I agree also that I don't see it about grief, or at least

420
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.400
that's not what I'm getting when I'm watching it.

421
00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:54.480
I entirely agree with you.

422
00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:56.519
It's that hope. that perseverance.

423
00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:00.779
It's scraping that little bit off each time so that in 6 months, 12

424
00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:03.059
months, we'll be able to escape from this prison, you know, stretch

425
00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:04.500
it out, obviously, to 1000000000s of years.

426
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:07.920
Yeah, it's interesting because grief is talked to, not about

427
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:08.339
grief.

428
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:09.720
Grief is talked about a lot.

429
00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:13.259
Grief is the subject of discussion, but it's not the theme of it.

430
00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:17.220
The theme is about, you know, I'm going to, you know, keeping

431
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:20.160
going, not giving up, solving the problem.

432
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:24.000
Oh, man, not necessarily about grief, just about sort of, I mean

433
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:29.759
sheer bastard kind of stubbornness through this really trying

434
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:30.539
situation.

435
00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:33.900
I wouldn't necessarily say stubbornness, actually, if I may

436
00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:34.200
James.

437
00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:36.240
I'd almost say it's the perseverance.

438
00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:39.180
It's the will to keep going, never be defeated.

439
00:21:39.299 --> 00:21:41.579
Stubbornness implies that, well, I'm just going to keep doing this

440
00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:42.839
and I don't care what anybody else thinks.

441
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:45.720
He still, he keeps doing it because he needs to.

442
00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:49.859
He knows that Clara needs him to do this to get out of here so

443
00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:52.019
that he can then save her, et cetera.

444
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:52.740
Do you know what I mean?

445
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:54.720
So yeah, I get what you're saying, but I actually don't know

446
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:55.559
whether it's stubbornness.

447
00:21:55.619 --> 00:22:02.279
So Moffat says that the best scene in heaven's sand is the scene

448
00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:07.740
in Hellbent where the doctor and Clara are talking about this in

449
00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:13.680
the Matrix underbasement thing. and the close to room, yeah.

450
00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:15.420
Yeah, it's an incredible scene.

451
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:19.980
And the reason is that we suddenly get this radically

452
00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:24.599
reinterpreted in a way that we didn't understand because the

453
00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:29.940
doctor says that he knew all along who had captured him and he

454
00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:32.039
knew what the situation was.

455
00:22:32.099 --> 00:22:35.759
And so the only way to get to the people who had captured him, who

456
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:39.119
were the time lords was to persist and persist and persist and

457
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.720
persist, and then he would get into an extraction chamber, and he

458
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.519
would be able to save Clara's life.

459
00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:48.059
And Clara is absolutely horrified by that.

460
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.839
Like, cannot believe that he's gone to those lengths.

461
00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:54.299
It's been 4.5 1000000000 years, get over it.

462
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.700
Yes, that's exactly what she says.

463
00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:57.420
Get over it.

464
00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:59.640
And that's the thing.

465
00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:04.440
The research doesn't work properly as a metaphor for grief is...

466
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.180
There's the one line about grief, I think, in the in the show is

467
00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:13.380
where the doctor says the day that someone dies isn't the worst

468
00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:14.039
day.

469
00:23:14.099 --> 00:23:15.720
At least you've got something to do.

470
00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:18.839
And that sounds like a flip moffatism.

471
00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:21.299
That's the sort of Moffat thing that's all the time.

472
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.619
In fact, but that's actually true.

473
00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:24.000
It's actually entirely...

474
00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:27.480
It goes on to say, it's all the days later.

475
00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:29.880
Yeah. when they're still dead.

476
00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:32.460
And that's not really true.

477
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:37.259
Because however great a loss is.

478
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:40.140
You do eventually get over it.

479
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.180
And you don't ever completely get over it.

480
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.079
There's a scar.

481
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:44.700
There are tender spots.

482
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:50.519
There are moments where you think of it again, but you get over it

483
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:51.000
you know.

484
00:23:51.059 --> 00:23:57.240
And so the doctor's kind of weird self-indulgent thing, like Clara

485
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:01.440
is there to take him down a peg and say, this is ridiculous.

486
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:03.900
You should have just let me die.

487
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.259
Yeah, but it is that thing, while there's life, there's hope, while

488
00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:10.319
there's hope, there's life, you could say, because he knows that

489
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.259
if he keeps going, there's a chance to save it, or he believes, if

490
00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:14.880
he keeps going, there's a chance to save it.

491
00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:18.420
You know, the healing process with grief starts because you know

492
00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:21.119
they are ever coming back and he's not actually in that spot.

493
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:22.140
You learn to live.

494
00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:22.680
It is true.

495
00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:23.819
Yeah, exactly.

496
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:25.619
He doesn't need to learn to live with it because he still thinks

497
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:26.759
that he can do something about it.

498
00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:29.400
But, I mean, the thing is that Clara will be horrified.

499
00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:33.720
Like she tears up that he, because he's put himself through so

500
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:36.900
much pain, you know, for her, which is something that she

501
00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:38.220
absolutely doesn't want.

502
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.259
So is it more less about that?

503
00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:40.859
Not worth it.

504
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.880
So is this story less about grief and more about denial then?

505
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:50.579
Well, it's partly about how stupid men are, you know, which is a

506
00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:53.279
theme in the... that's the next episode.

507
00:24:53.339 --> 00:24:55.259
But that's a theme in the Moffat era.

508
00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:58.140
But it is also about how clever the doctor is.

509
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:00.599
And so, yeah, you get those scenes.

510
00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:03.839
I always want the doctor to be funnier than the villains and

511
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:04.920
that's why he wins.

512
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:08.099
You, Simon, always wants him to be cleverer than the villain.

513
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:08.579
Exactly.

514
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.160
Yeah, he is clever.

515
00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:11.640
Exactly.

516
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:12.660
Whilst he's so funny.

517
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.680
He is still funny.

518
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:17.279
And that's when I think I like the tone of it because it strikes.

519
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:18.420
I mean, yeah, it is on the darker side.

520
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:20.700
I don't say that all Doctor Who episodes need to be quite this

521
00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:25.259
bleak, but the fact that it's so well written and well performed.

522
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:28.079
You've got, it sets for me exactly the right tone for Doctor Who

523
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:30.299
in that you've got, everything is completely serious.

524
00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:32.400
In terms of the situation is completely serious.

525
00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:35.640
But the doctor can still have these wonderful, beautiful one

526
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:37.680
liners that provide these lighter moments.

527
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.440
And I think that rather than those lighter moments being, the

528
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:41.819
raison d'etre for the episode.

529
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.279
What I was going to say about the loss thing.

530
00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:46.440
I mean, as the doctor says, you know, you're doing everything on

531
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.660
the day of the DSA, you know, organising the funeral, et cetera, et

532
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:48.960
cetera.

533
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:52.259
And then when the funeral's over and everybody's gone and you've

534
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:55.319
received all the flowers, the sympathy flowers, and they're just

535
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:58.559
sitting there and they're slowly rotting, and suddenly nobody

536
00:25:58.559 --> 00:25:59.160
calls you.

537
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:01.259
Everyone stops calling you.

538
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.259
And I think that's it's something that's an observation that's

539
00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:05.640
been made to me about funerals.

540
00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:07.920
It's almost the hardest part is when everyone goes away.

541
00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:11.279
Yeah. and thinks that, well, that was that done. to the next

542
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:11.460
thing.

543
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.799
And I think that's explored here.

544
00:26:13.859 --> 00:26:14.880
Yeah.

545
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:19.259
I mean, there might be something about, you know, um, uh, man

546
00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:21.000
search for meaning by Victor Frankel?

547
00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:23.339
you know, the guy, he survived, he was one member of his family

548
00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:27.119
survived the survived Auschwitz, and it's a very, it's a very

549
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:27.480
short book.

550
00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:28.380
It's really good.

551
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.680
But he kind of talks about, you know, the importance of one of the

552
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.740
things that, you know, the important thing is in life is meaning's

553
00:26:34.740 --> 00:26:37.859
more important than, you know, will to power, all the sex drive

554
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:40.619
all, you know, Nietzsche and Freud and stuff, and he, you know

555
00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:43.079
meaning is the most important thing, and the contemplation of

556
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:46.799
those you love is the important thing to get you through things as

557
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.019
terrible as the camps.

558
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.220
And so maybe, I think kind of grief is talked about, but I think

559
00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:58.619
it's the contemplation of Clara that keeps him going through this

560
00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:02.940
insane, endless suffering to get through the other side.

561
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.380
Yes, I just, so just oddly, grief is the thing that's talked about

562
00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:12.240
but it's actually the contemplation of Clara, the way that, you

563
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.519
know, when you lose people you love, they don't go away.

564
00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:16.859
They're just you'll never ever see them again, but they're still

565
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:17.339
kind of there.

566
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:21.480
And that's the stuff that gets you through the horribleness of

567
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:23.279
what most of life, to be honest.

568
00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:27.599
Yeah, so I kind of think it's possibly more, even though the

569
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:31.680
episode doesn't say this, it's about the contemplation of those

570
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.500
you love who aren't there anymore that can get you through

571
00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:37.019
punching through a Diamond Mountain.

572
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.920
It's funny, isn't it?

573
00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:44.339
We do see the 1st time he accidentally says Clara's name.

574
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.720
The way, the way the doctor in the rescue accidentally says

575
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.460
Susan's name.

576
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:56.339
You see him do that for the 1st time, but that just develops into

577
00:27:56.339 --> 00:27:59.460
a full-blown conversation with her.

578
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:04.200
And it's a conversation initially with her back, then with her at

579
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.380
the blackboard, and then finally with her actually speaking to

580
00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:07.619
him.

581
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.579
Yeah, actually, just on a technical level where you do have your

582
00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:16.559
lead actor, essentially talking to himself for 54 minutes, there

583
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:20.700
are so many brilliant devices employed to make that utterly

584
00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:21.539
justifiable.

585
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.359
But, you know, it's everything Moffatt's ever done.

586
00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:27.839
But initially it's the talking to the darkness because he's

587
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:29.099
probably being listened to.

588
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:34.980
So, yeah, he can just talk to the castle, to his unseen enemies

589
00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.920
whether singular or plural, then he's got his mind palaced, then

590
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.519
he's got Clara, you know, it's just all the, all these great ways

591
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.660
of, um, yeah, just justifying what could have died on its arse.

592
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:50.819
There's even that great line where he breaks the 4th wall and says

593
00:28:50.819 --> 00:28:51.900
oh, yes.

594
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.079
I work well with an audience or something along those lines.

595
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:57.299
Yeah, I'm nothing without an audience.

596
00:28:57.299 --> 00:28:58.380
And he just looks at the camera.

597
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:00.779
And glances of camera. fantastic.

598
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:02.579
And that's all you need.

599
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:03.660
And it's so good.

600
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:04.799
So good.

601
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:07.740
It's like a, it's like watching a stage show.

602
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:08.579
Yeah, yeah.

603
00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:09.960
A stage show without an interval.

604
00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:12.839
Like, I mean, obviously, it wouldn't really work, but that's what

605
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.539
it reminds me of, because it's so, when you see those really good

606
00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:19.920
one-man shows that are so engaging and you're just hanging off

607
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:24.180
every word that the actor is saying, it's, it's, it's, what I was

608
00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:27.480
reminded of in watching this, again, and I don't watch this very

609
00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:30.420
often, but, um, just watching it for this.

610
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.660
I was just, I was worried, I'd think, oh yes, that was very good.

611
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.680
But I was equally, if not more blown away than when I 1st saw it

612
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:38.759
and subsequent viewers.

613
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.440
Each time a little more.

614
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.359
Maybe.

615
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:43.980
I mean, I always loved this story.

616
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.099
I loved it from the moment I 1st saw it, I was blown away.

617
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:52.680
But every time I watch it, I find something more to enjoy or to be

618
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:54.480
surprised by.

619
00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:57.779
There are all these little moments throughout it that you don't

620
00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:00.240
quite catch the 1st or 2nd or 3rd time.

621
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:05.160
These nuances in what he does or the way it's directed.

622
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:22.140
What I was astounded was how early we finished the first time

623
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:26.640
through, that there's quite a lot of the episode to go, and then

624
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.240
the episode speeds up and has this weird deconstructed way of

625
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.599
continuing to tell the same story, which I think is really

626
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:34.680
remarkable.

627
00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:36.660
Yeah, yeah.

628
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:42.420
I mean, my my stomach rises in my in my chest when he's reciting

629
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:47.160
off longer and longer and longer time frames.

630
00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:51.359
You just feel sick at this thought that it's just going on for

631
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.619
such a long period of time.

632
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.339
And the way it speeds up, like each time you come to that

633
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:59.099
statement where it's 7000 years, 12,000 years, one, you know

634
00:30:59.099 --> 00:31:03.000
whatever, whatever numbers are. the editing is faster and faster

635
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:05.940
and faster as we get through it and the way you also then get the

636
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:08.940
building of that, the last sequence at the end about the bird

637
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:12.539
being built in a way almost word by word.

638
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:14.880
It is not quite word by word, but it's almost word by word, but in

639
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:16.980
a way that you can still perfectly understand what he's saying.

640
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.680
It's not just a random sequence, it's a word, it's glued

641
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:20.039
together.

642
00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:24.960
It is so clever and there is so much time, I suspect, has been

643
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:28.859
spent on that 2 minute, 3 minute sequence with how long it is

644
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:29.759
remarkable.

645
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.039
And it's still edited.

646
00:31:32.099 --> 00:31:36.059
Like, like, it was, it was, they gave it a longer episode running

647
00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:40.380
time and they still had to cut it because they didn't have enough

648
00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:43.680
room in the schedule for, for everything.

649
00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.559
There are whole scenes that were excised.

650
00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:51.420
Is it the best edited bit of Doctor Who, necessarily the best

651
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:51.960
edited?

652
00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:53.759
Bit of who ever?

653
00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:57.000
I was actually surprised how late in the telling, because I'd

654
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:58.920
forgotten how late in the telling we kind of, you know, the

655
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:00.599
revelation comes and what's actually going on.

656
00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:02.759
And it's funny on rewatches.

657
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:06.059
Um, I mean, what you left, what you're left with from your 1st

658
00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:08.220
watching is just kind of the emotional whack of it.

659
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.220
And then when you actually go back and study, the pacing, the

660
00:32:11.220 --> 00:32:15.420
structure, and the rest of it, the actual shape of these things.

661
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.079
And so this was only my 2nd watch, but it was, um, knowing having

662
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.380
seen it before, albeit, what, 10 years ago, something like that.

663
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:24.660
How do you only watch this twice?

664
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.940
I'm just a terrible Doctor Who fan, James.

665
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:34.079
I probably only watched 3 maximum 4 times and it would be one of

666
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:34.859
my favourites ever.

667
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.720
I've watched this quite a lot I think.

668
00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:40.980
I think the surprising bit is the bit in the middle where nothing

669
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:44.339
very much is happening where he's settled into a kind of rhythm.

670
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.099
He knows how much time he has 58 minutes.

671
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:47.579
You know what I mean?

672
00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:48.299
When he ready is, yeah.

673
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:49.019
If he runs.

674
00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:50.759
It's like 84 minutes at the most.

675
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.920
And he's looking for numbers.

676
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:55.500
He's eating soup for the 1st time.

677
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:56.819
He will be doing that again next week.

678
00:32:57.059 --> 00:33:01.380
And all of that, that sort of very strange thing.

679
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:02.759
Which...

680
00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:05.400
Like, he makes an accommodation.

681
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:08.640
There's time for sleep, he says, and work and stuff.

682
00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:12.299
That actually is a little bit like Moffatt is writing about grief

683
00:33:12.299 --> 00:33:12.720
I think.

684
00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:17.220
You know, there's sleep and work and stuff, but every 85 minutes

685
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:21.599
you're reminded there's the veil, you know, like, so perhaps even

686
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.579
even though very little of the dialogue is about grief, if

687
00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:33.539
encounters with the veil are about that, then maybe there's hints

688
00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:34.680
of it in there, right?

689
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:35.819
He claims it's not.

690
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:41.940
But also he has also gone on record, I believe, is saying it was a

691
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:46.559
direct response to the criticisms he got for the lack of emotional

692
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:52.799
depth in the middle of series 6 with the baby spew kidnap

693
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:54.240
hotline.

694
00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:58.140
Which, yeah, like you just kind of had to move on to the next the

695
00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:02.759
next episode. because it was in the middle of a season and that's

696
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:03.539
how you deal with it.

697
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:08.760
And he went, oh, I want to deep deeper into the emotional kind of

698
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:13.980
responses of the lead character, to losing his best friend.

699
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:15.119
Yeah.

700
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:18.659
I mean, he has always been capable, I think, of, you know, while

701
00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:22.500
being clever, and while being less interested in guest characters

702
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:26.340
and one-off characters and stuff than Russell is, most of this

703
00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:31.260
season is things happening to people we know, he has been capable

704
00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:32.760
of moving us, I think.

705
00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:36.960
I still think, like the end of the Big Bang, where Amy stands up

706
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.360
at the wedding and demands that the doctor show up.

707
00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:42.900
You know, like all of that stuff, that the doctor sitting by her

708
00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:46.619
bed by Amelia's bed and saying goodbye to her.

709
00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:50.820
All of that and stuff, he's absolutely capable of creating

710
00:34:50.820 --> 00:34:51.659
emotional scenes.

711
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:53.280
He does it devastatingly well.

712
00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:59.699
And sometimes, you know, he uses his reveals in order to do that

713
00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:02.579
in order to sort of pack an emotional punch.

714
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:04.679
I think he is very good at that stuff.

715
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:09.659
But, like, what I like about this is that we don't land on the

716
00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:13.619
side that the doctor lands on because, because this is a classic

717
00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:16.380
fridging in some ways, isn't it?

718
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:21.360
Like you have a female character who dies and the principal

719
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:27.659
interest that we have in that is the man's reaction, right?

720
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.619
And so then you have Clara coming back and making it not a

721
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:35.639
fridging because Clara is the focus of hell bent.

722
00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:40.500
She is the one listening to the doctor's story.

723
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.800
You know, she's the one who goes off, steals a Tartisan, goes off

724
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:44.639
to explore the world.

725
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:48.539
She's the main character of that, and she's the one who says no.

726
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:50.880
And she says it in Face the Raven.

727
00:35:50.940 --> 00:35:54.300
She says, you're gonna do some stupid things because you're a

728
00:35:54.300 --> 00:35:55.079
massive idiot.

729
00:35:55.139 --> 00:35:56.280
Don't do them.

730
00:35:56.340 --> 00:35:57.719
Don't do them in my name.

731
00:35:57.780 --> 00:35:58.980
And then he does anyway.

732
00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:03.239
Well, he doesn't really because he doesn't kill anyone.

733
00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:05.039
Like he's really furious.

734
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:08.460
He's going to tear up Trap Street and all sorts of things and he

735
00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:10.380
doesn't do anything like that.

736
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:17.579
So it's the usual Moffat thing of taking what looks like is going

737
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:21.300
to be a sort of terrible story, you know, Santa goes on about the

738
00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:25.800
possible rape revenge story that we're going to get in a good man

739
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:28.139
goes to war and that we don't get.

740
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:31.679
We get a different story and the same things happening here.

741
00:36:31.739 --> 00:36:33.840
It looks like it's going to be a fridging and it absolutely

742
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:34.440
isn't.

743
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:36.840
It's a fridging followed by a thoring.

744
00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:37.920
Yeah.

745
00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:41.880
Do you know one of the sequences that I, one of the just the lines

746
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:47.820
of dialogue that I found most devastating about it in it was, I

747
00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:52.380
can't remember the exact time frame, but after he's zapped by the

748
00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:56.340
creature in the 1st time, that we see that, in this completely

749
00:36:56.340 --> 00:36:59.820
calm voice, he says, I worked out that in my current condition

750
00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:03.420
it'll take me a day and a half crawl back up to the top of the

751
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:05.099
tower, that was just awful.

752
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:08.519
But he also says, and I think I've got a day and a half left as

753
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:12.059
well. because there's that thing, it's just awful.

754
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.679
Moffat helps himself to some time-lord law for people who care

755
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:18.119
about those things, right?

756
00:37:18.179 --> 00:37:22.199
And so it takes time lords a long time to die.

757
00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:23.940
And then we get the funny line.

758
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.880
That's why they like to go home and die among their people because

759
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.679
they won't bury them to, you know, like, and so we get a gag, you

760
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:32.519
know, and...

761
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:33.119
Yeah, exactly, yeah.

762
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:36.480
But it's the same as Bob Holmes going, why would the brigadier

763
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:37.500
come to the cottage hospital?

764
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:40.500
I know, let's say the doctor has 2 hearts, you know?

765
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:43.800
Like, you just make the thing up for the purposes of the story.

766
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:45.059
Here's some time lord stuff.

767
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:47.219
But there's something very elegant about him saying that because

768
00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:49.800
every cell of the Time Lord's body, he's desperately trying to

769
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:50.280
regenerate.

770
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:50.880
Yeah.

771
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:53.579
But don't you remember that the Daleks were like that as well?

772
00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:56.940
The daleks were functionally immortal in The Witch is Familiar.

773
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.039
They can't be killed because they're so desperate to live.

774
00:37:59.099 --> 00:38:02.400
So it's another thing that he's done sort of before.

775
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:06.960
You mentioned Santa for before, Rob, but one of the funniest

776
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:07.139
things.

777
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.739
The one of the funniest things she says about this is it's a story

778
00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:16.260
about grumpy, grey-haired Scotsman doing the same things over and

779
00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:17.340
over and over again.

780
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.760
And so it's the sort of thing that Stephen Moffatt is likely to

781
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:25.559
write after being the Doctor Who writer who has written more

782
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:27.960
Doctor Who than any other one in history.

783
00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:29.579
Is it his the writer's tale?

784
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:30.420
For now.

785
00:38:30.539 --> 00:38:31.260
It's me.

786
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:34.739
I'm doing the thing again, there'll be a radical reversal and it

787
00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:37.079
will all be tiny, whiny, and you'll be devastated.

788
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:38.099
Youll laugh, you'll cry.

789
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:39.659
And he's been doing that for so long.

790
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:42.900
He's been doing it since, well, Chris for fatal death, really.

791
00:38:43.019 --> 00:38:44.400
Exactly.

792
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:49.440
And so it's the sort of thing that he writes as part of his

793
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:50.940
farewell tour.

794
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.360
And, and, you know, Capoldi's doctor's always been a bit more

795
00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:55.139
forty, I think.

796
00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:01.079
Yeah, it's interesting because, um, And I'm the least qualified

797
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.800
person here to suggest this because, you know, watch it once and

798
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.320
then, you know, that's I'm kind of largely done.

799
00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:15.179
But, um, But with the 11th doctor, who he, he, he has River Song

800
00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:20.460
pitch the idea of the Moffatt doctor to the 10th doctor in Science

801
00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:23.940
of Library, Forest of the Dead, and what, so the, his idea of what

802
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:27.239
the, this, and this is, must been his idea of the doctor since he

803
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:30.179
started thinking about what his doctor would be like, and that's

804
00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:31.260
the Matt Smith doctor.

805
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:38.400
But then, uh, Peter Powley's doctor, um, is kind of, unlike Tenant

806
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:42.300
who was just a continuation, ten is a continuation of nine, but 12

807
00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:47.579
is definitely not a continuation of that kind of his plan A of

808
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:50.099
what his kind of, you know, his his doctor would be like.

809
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:56.460
So how this doctor is Moffat, really. in a way, in a way that the

810
00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:58.739
11th doctor is a doctor is not.

811
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.739
So yeah, that totally stands up.

812
00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:04.380
This is Moffat as much as it is the doctor, I think.

813
00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:10.019
I think I think the reason that his 1st doctor is a child, though

814
00:40:10.019 --> 00:40:11.760
is a child, how old is he?

815
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:14.219
12 Rivers says.

816
00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:17.639
Anyway. face of a 12-year-old, I think.

817
00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:23.159
Um, is because one of the things that he's always, you know, that

818
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:27.599
his male characters have often done is be giant children, you know

819
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.980
that and so we kind of make that real in the personality of the of

820
00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:35.159
the doctor and, you know, it's telling that the closest thing he

821
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:39.420
has to a sexual partner is significantly older and more

822
00:40:39.420 --> 00:40:40.559
experienced than him.

823
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:44.460
So, I mean, there are elements of Moffatt there in that, you know

824
00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:49.679
the smartest man in the room and like a slightly bad guy as well.

825
00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:54.059
Like so much of what Moffatt writes has been about whether he's a

826
00:40:54.059 --> 00:40:58.260
you know, it's not just the 12th doctor who wonders whether he's a

827
00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:03.480
good man or not. like right back from joking apart, where Moffatt

828
00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:06.239
writes a sitcom about the breakdown of his 1st marriage.

829
00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:09.719
And it looks like the reason that the marriage broke down is

830
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:12.840
because she cheated on him, but it becomes clear throughout the

831
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:17.219
series that it broke down because he's just insufferable. to be

832
00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:17.760
around.

833
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:23.820
So I kind of think that that both of Russell's doctors are Russell

834
00:41:23.820 --> 00:41:27.239
in some way, everything's marvellous and wonderful, but there's a

835
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:31.980
kind of deep cynicism underneath that you rarely get to see that

836
00:41:31.980 --> 00:41:35.340
tenants doctor is a performance in silence in the library.

837
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:39.599
Remember, there's a moment where River's able to get him to just

838
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:44.400
cut it out for a 2nd and then he's back on and he's being the

839
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:44.820
doctor.

840
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:45.840
It's a performance.

841
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:49.739
Whereas from off of the doctor is a thing you aspire to be, I

842
00:41:49.739 --> 00:41:53.820
think, and he even the doctor himself aspires to be that and falls

843
00:41:53.820 --> 00:41:54.420
short of it.

844
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.559
He doesn't wear the velvet jacket next week because he's not.

845
00:41:58.920 --> 00:41:59.880
Not the doctor. not the doctor.

846
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:01.500
Well, not feeling like the doctor or something.

847
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:15.719
The other thing about this episode is that, um, it's the doctor

848
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:18.960
although he's got an audience, he doesn't.

849
00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:20.940
This is the doctor unguarded.

850
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.400
You know, there's no one to there is no one to perform to.

851
00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:27.599
Other than to himself, really, you know, because, you know, it's

852
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:31.739
it's an incredibly internal peace, and he's got the veil, who's

853
00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:34.440
the only other real tangible person there.

854
00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:38.940
But this is the, this is the Dr. Sands audience despite all the

855
00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:40.380
the artifice of it.

856
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:44.219
So this is this is the doctor unguarded, uh, in a way that you

857
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:47.219
won't get him unguarded in a, I don't know, in a based under siege

858
00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:48.659
story, for example.

859
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:52.199
It's the implication, though, in the next episode, the time loads

860
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.559
we're watching every single 2nd of that for 4500000000 years.

861
00:42:55.619 --> 00:42:58.800
Oh, no, that shoots my, that shoots that completely out of water.

862
00:42:58.860 --> 00:42:59.280
Good point.

863
00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:02.099
Actually, yeah, because yeah, oh, yeah, because if they are, if

864
00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:03.000
they are.

865
00:43:03.059 --> 00:43:04.739
They're aware of what is what he was saying.

866
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:06.360
I think he assumes he's being watched, yeah.

867
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:11.219
Yeah, except except that the only time, like the veil is in a way

868
00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:13.500
the only actual tangible audience that he has.

869
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:17.159
After he gives that opening speech, if you think because she's

870
00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:21.300
dead, I'm weak, you know, that speech, after that, he is basically

871
00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:22.380
talking to himself.

872
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:25.739
He's talking to himself or to Clara inside the Tartars, all of

873
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:26.280
that sort of thing.

874
00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:29.340
And then the big doctor-ish moment where he tells the story and

875
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:32.940
starts to name drop historical figures, he's saying it to the veil

876
00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:33.840
isn't he?

877
00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:35.400
He's telling that...

878
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:36.900
He's telling the sort of...

879
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:38.400
He's telling what his plan is.

880
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:39.719
Is the veil their camera?

881
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.219
The veil is the cameraman.

882
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.659
I mean, the veil is the camera.

883
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:43.800
You can see him.

884
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:46.920
Oh, and it's on the camera is on the telly.

885
00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:47.280
Yeah.

886
00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:49.860
And also when he, because he does, he does turn up a galfer at the

887
00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:52.739
end and give the message to the boy, you know, tell them I came

888
00:43:52.739 --> 00:43:53.460
the long way around.

889
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.239
So actually, yeah, I think you might be right, James, there is a

890
00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:00.000
way of reading this where you could say, you know, apart from the

891
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.079
stuff in his mind palace.

892
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:05.699
Everything else is an act of intimidation towards the timeboards.

893
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.659
You've put the wrong guy in the bottle, you know.

894
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:11.519
There's one thing you never put in a trap.

895
00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:17.039
Isn't the great, isn't the long way round line a great throwback

896
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:18.300
to the girl in the fireplace?

897
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:19.079
Yeah.

898
00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:23.340
Well, and it is, in fact, the season ends with Clara saying she'll

899
00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:25.500
go back to Galafray, to be put packet.

900
00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:26.820
The long way around, the long way around.

901
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.039
And of course, it's referenced in Day of the Doctor as well.

902
00:44:29.099 --> 00:44:31.619
Yeah, yeah, and he is, and this is him.

903
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:36.000
This is him going home the long way around, but to smash stuff up

904
00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:36.719
you know.

905
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:37.679
Yeah, yeah.

906
00:44:38.219 --> 00:44:44.940
I can't overstate my reaction to this episode, and it's brilliance

907
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:49.019
mainly because of its tone, and it's something that I've mentioned

908
00:44:49.019 --> 00:44:52.079
many times on this podcast, and to anyone who will listen at other

909
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:58.199
times, about the lot, yeah, a lot of my issue with. yes exactly.

910
00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:02.039
A lot of my issue with, certainly the, well, a lot of the modern

911
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:04.139
era, but also, particularly the Russell era, which is what I'm

912
00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:09.900
kind of dreading returning, is a sort of a levity which is a

913
00:45:09.900 --> 00:45:14.159
superficiality about so much, it's too great a percentage of the

914
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:18.179
storyline, the acting, the performances and the dialogue is at a

915
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:19.019
superficial level.

916
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:20.280
It feels superficial.

917
00:45:20.340 --> 00:45:23.579
This, I'm not saying that every Doctor Who episode should be as

918
00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:28.380
dark and serious as this one is, but it's, I think it is worth

919
00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:31.619
saying that this is a great example, as was things like blink or

920
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:32.280
midnight.

921
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:34.679
Or, you know, the girl in the fireplace.

922
00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:39.480
They're great examples of what I believe the show could be, and

923
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:44.280
everyone we know raves and raves about those episodes.

924
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:50.639
And yet why are those few and far between rather than the staple?

925
00:45:50.699 --> 00:45:54.179
Instead, the staple is, and I think what's going to happen in the

926
00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:59.460
coming years, is the staple is silly runarounds with, you know

927
00:45:59.460 --> 00:46:03.059
goofy over the top performances where, yes, there's some fun and

928
00:46:03.059 --> 00:46:03.960
it's all entertaining.

929
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:07.199
I can't deny that, but it's just so fluffy.

930
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:09.840
Why isn't it more likely?

931
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:12.239
I'm not, as I said, not every episode can be like this, and you

932
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:15.059
certainly can't, you need a buildup to get to an episode like this

933
00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:18.179
but there's just so much trash.

934
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:20.400
Well, I don't think it's trash.

935
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:23.760
I think and I don't think Doctor Who has ever really...

936
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:25.380
Well, trash is not fair. sorry, trash is not fair.

937
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.039
Trash is not fair.

938
00:46:26.099 --> 00:46:28.260
I just don't think Doctor Who has ever been like that.

939
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:29.219
I think that's...

940
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:32.099
What you're talking about in the dawn of time back in the day. at

941
00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:33.780
any point has it been like that?

942
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.280
Yeah, of course it's been exactly like that.

943
00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:40.619
Look at look at the look at the period from from 1970 to 1978.

944
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:42.659
Um, you know, 1977.

945
00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:44.820
That period is exactly like that.

946
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:46.440
You've got the seriousness.

947
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:48.420
I mean, just thinking of something like Terror of the Zygons or

948
00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:49.380
the Green Death or whatever.

949
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:50.159
Yes, there's great.

950
00:46:50.219 --> 00:46:53.699
There's some funny lines of dialogue in there, which lighten it up

951
00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:57.119
but otherwise it's a, it's a serious story.

952
00:46:57.179 --> 00:47:01.019
I think this is a function of how old we were when we...

953
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:04.500
No, no, I don't think it is, because then why isn't it?

954
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:07.860
Then why is it that I can go back and watch something else that I

955
00:47:07.860 --> 00:47:10.679
might have enjoyed and think, 0 my god, that's rubbish.

956
00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:12.659
Whereas I can go back and watch something I tear of those items

957
00:47:12.659 --> 00:47:14.880
which I saw when I was 7 or 8 years old for the 1st time.

958
00:47:14.940 --> 00:47:18.719
And still think, wow, this is moody, this is great.

959
00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:22.019
This is this is got a flavour. silly and preposterous.

960
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:23.579
No, no, but that's the thing.

961
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:27.179
I think that that's where I think we disagree, is that, is that

962
00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:28.980
yes, of course it's silly and preposterous, isn't it?

963
00:47:28.980 --> 00:47:31.199
There are these slimy monsters living under Loch Ness, and they

964
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:33.420
can duplicate themselves into human form, blah, blah, blah.

965
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:34.260
Obviously that's ridiculous.

966
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:36.900
But they're also playing it for laughs as well.

967
00:47:37.019 --> 00:47:37.980
They're not playing.

968
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:38.699
I think John.

969
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:40.440
They are not playing.

970
00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:41.400
They are not playing.

971
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:44.940
The bagpipe practice next door.

972
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:45.719
Yeah.

973
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:48.239
Yeah, of course.

974
00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:51.000
Yeah, but that's a funny line of dialogue.

975
00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:54.360
That's a lighter moment in something that otherwise is being.

976
00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:57.000
Well, that's her taking the phone learning that Harry's been

977
00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:57.300
shot.

978
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.380
And Harry's been shot.

979
00:47:58.440 --> 00:47:59.099
Exactly.

980
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:00.179
But you know what I mean?

981
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:03.179
Like, and I think that that's, that's, it's a regrettable decision

982
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:06.119
for me that they've just, they decided when they brought the show

983
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.659
back to basically lean into the silliness and say, yes, the whole

984
00:48:09.659 --> 00:48:11.699
situation with Doctor Who is preposterous.

985
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:16.199
So let's not try and pretend otherwise because, you know, we want

986
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:18.420
to be taken seriously as a television program.

987
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:21.719
If we think that the program, you know, we'll just be those nerdy

988
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:25.500
geeky Doctor Who fans back in the 70s and 80s who treated this

989
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:29.099
sometimes poorly made television show, desperately, seriously, when

990
00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:31.079
everybody else in the world was laughing at it, and I think

991
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:33.840
they're still traumatised by being laughed at when they were a kid

992
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:34.920
for liking Doctor Who.

993
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:35.519
I think that's sad.

994
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:39.960
Well, let me just say, I think that this season more than any

995
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:43.980
other season of the new series actually does more or less what you

996
00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:44.340
want.

997
00:48:44.460 --> 00:48:46.800
Yeah, well, the Moffatt era generally does.

998
00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:50.880
The Moffat is like the inverse for me of the RTD era, the Moffat

999
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:55.679
era is tonally, much, much more what I want, apart from the

1000
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:57.960
occasional backslide.

1001
00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:01.679
And the backslides get worse, I think, as the progressors.

1002
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:04.619
I think the Matt Smith area particularly represents that tone that

1003
00:49:04.619 --> 00:49:05.579
I'm going for.

1004
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:09.480
When it comes back and people find out it's frothy and silly and a

1005
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:11.880
bit clunky in places, they're going to be surprised, but it's like

1006
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:14.099
well, no, it twas ever thus.

1007
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:19.679
But I don't think I've got the emotional stamina for heaven sent

1008
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:20.519
every week.

1009
00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:22.260
Oh, I agree with that.

1010
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.119
They don't have to be haven't seen, no.

1011
00:49:24.179 --> 00:49:24.840
Yeah.

1012
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:28.860
But, um, yeah, but I, I, I like the froth.

1013
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:35.400
I do stand by in my statement that I think Stephen Moffat is craft

1014
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:39.059
wise, the finest writer who have ever written the Doctor Who.

1015
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:42.900
I think I don't love it when he's in when he's in charge of the

1016
00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:43.380
boat, though.

1017
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:48.059
Um, because I kind of find just, um, uh, there was a, there was a

1018
00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:50.699
point in the Matt Smith era when I realised, oh, this series that

1019
00:49:50.699 --> 00:49:54.239
I'm now watching is kind of a Shaggy Dog story in that it's not

1020
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:55.980
it's not going anywhere, really.

1021
00:49:56.039 --> 00:50:01.019
What I did like about the Russell T. Davis era was the sense of

1022
00:50:01.019 --> 00:50:04.500
graduation from series to series where you clear the board, then

1023
00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:07.079
you bring back the Daleks, then you bring back the master, then

1024
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:10.380
you know, there is some sense, there is some sense of escalation

1025
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:12.420
natural escalation to it.

1026
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:17.880
But with Moffatira, again, he is the finest writer to have written

1027
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:20.820
for Doctor Who, but there is kind of, yeah, does have a certain

1028
00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:26.579
habit of kind of having all these wonderful little payoffs, detail

1029
00:50:26.579 --> 00:50:28.260
and details and character payoffs.

1030
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:32.639
But then with the kind of the larger kind of season sized or

1031
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:38.340
whatever, archtype payoffs, a habit of over-promising and under

1032
00:50:38.340 --> 00:50:41.880
delivering, just in terms of, this is giving a sense of direction

1033
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:43.559
of where this series is going.

1034
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:46.019
Like, the end of the day of the doctor, I thought it was going to

1035
00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:49.380
be, you know, Doctor Who would become the search for Califre, um

1036
00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:50.039
then it doesn't.

1037
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:51.780
And now we have now we have the hybrid.

1038
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:19.079
Well, that's four and a half CVDs.

1039
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:19.739
We'll never get back.

1040
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:22.800
We gonna head off now, but we'll see you next week for the final

1041
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:24.659
denouement in Hellbends.

1042
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:28.440
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1043
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:32.039
and you can keep up with us on our website, flight throughentirety

1044
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:34.980
com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as

1045
00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:38.940
links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain

1046
00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:42.000
maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project.

1047
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:46.739
Until next time, sometimes it's best to just buy some lilies. and

1048
00:51:46.739 --> 00:51:47.579
a sympathy card.

1049
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:49.860
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1050
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:50.820
Good night.

1051
00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:51.960
Bye bye.

1052
00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:52.739
See you.

1053
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:01.199
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Modernly, Simon

1054
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:03.179
Moore, James Selwood, and Robert Valentine.

1055
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:05.340
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1056
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.639
This episode, The Time on Him, was recorded on the 12th of

1057
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:11.760
November 2023 and released on the 26th of November.

1058
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:15.960
This episode is being released mere hours after the first of the

1059
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.099
Doctor Who anniversary specials, and in a few hours' time, will be

1060
00:52:20.099 --> 00:52:23.699
releasing the first episode of our new Doctor Who Flashcast, the

1061
00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:25.500
second great and bountiful human empire.

1062
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:29.579
To listen to the episode, and for more information, check us out

1063
00:52:29.579 --> 00:52:32.699
at the 2nd Great and BountifulHuman Empire.com.

1064
00:52:34.500 --> 00:52:40.800
Now, just with the title, um, I, I, I kind of think that Hellbent

1065
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:43.559
Heaven sent is far in the wrong order.

1066
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:50.099
Yeah, it, yeah, no, Hellbent Heaven sent, just as 2 titles, just

1067
00:52:50.099 --> 00:52:52.920
as an, and as a mnemonic, just work way back.

1068
00:52:52.980 --> 00:52:55.860
I always forget what they're called because heaven, heaven sent

1069
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:59.159
hell bent is not a natural. not the natural way to it's not the

1070
00:52:59.159 --> 00:52:59.460
right way around.

1071
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:01.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, as titles.

1072
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:02.460
Just yeah.

1073
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:03.719
Hellbet heaven sent.

1074
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:04.920
I would never ever forget that.

1075
00:53:04.980 --> 00:53:06.900
But yeah, they're the wrong way around.

1076
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:08.519
But also, you can ask, is it?

1077
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:09.900
This is also Hellbent.

1078
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:12.360
He's hell bent on getting out.

1079
00:53:12.420 --> 00:53:14.340
He's held that he's having sense.

1080
00:53:14.340 --> 00:53:15.239
In the next episode.

1081
00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:16.320
Exactly.

1082
00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:18.119
Like, yeah.

1083
00:53:19.139 --> 00:53:21.360
I love that line about hell.

1084
00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:23.940
I'm not afraid of hell. just heaven for bad people.

1085
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:25.019
Heaven forbad.

1086
00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:26.940
That sounds great.

1087
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.659
I think before we finish up, there's another great line that we

1088
00:53:30.659 --> 00:53:33.239
haven't touched on and that's he's finally run out of corridor.

1089
00:53:33.300 --> 00:53:36.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah That is a perfect summary of that.

1090
00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:38.880
A perfect sort of meta summary of the entire show.

1091
00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:41.460
Can I just do a particular shout out for Rachel Tallalay, though

1092
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:45.719
before we finish up and I know her name has been mentioned many

1093
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:48.840
times on this podcast before as one of the best Doctor Who

1094
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:51.659
directors of the modern era and therefore ever.

1095
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:54.599
But I didn't know, and I don't know whether this has been

1096
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:56.880
discussed before and I've just not, I've just been asleep when

1097
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.440
I've been listening to the podcast back.

1098
00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:02.519
But I didn't realise that she had effectively been sent to direct

1099
00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:08.039
a prison in the United States for a 3rd her 3rd film, which was a

1100
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:09.360
flop, right?

1101
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:10.079
Oh, okay.

1102
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:13.320
As sometimes these things are tank girl.

1103
00:54:13.380 --> 00:54:13.739
T Girl.

1104
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:14.519
Yeah, I remember that.

1105
00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:17.820
And there's a great book that my husband pointed out to me

1106
00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:22.559
yesterday that he's just literally been reading called Women

1107
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:23.280
versus Hollywood.

1108
00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:25.440
Oh, wow. by Helena O'Hara.

1109
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:27.360
And I know that this is not a 2nd episode and so we're not allowed

1110
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:29.039
to give recommendations, but I'm going to.

1111
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:29.880
I don't care.

1112
00:54:29.940 --> 00:54:33.119
Because it is a new, it is a new book.

1113
00:54:33.179 --> 00:54:35.940
And it's basically just a book about the fact that male directors

1114
00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:40.139
get forgiven for their failures, you know, they go to direct jail

1115
00:54:40.139 --> 00:54:42.539
and they're not allowed to make anything for 12 months, but then

1116
00:54:42.539 --> 00:54:44.519
they come back and they and they can do their next project.

1117
00:54:44.579 --> 00:54:49.619
Whereas Hollywood is littered with all of these women who, you

1118
00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:52.260
know, they make stuff and then there's a failure as these things

1119
00:54:52.260 --> 00:54:52.679
happen.

1120
00:54:52.739 --> 00:54:55.679
And then basically that's the end of their career or it takes them

1121
00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:57.719
years and years and years and years and years.

1122
00:54:57.780 --> 00:54:59.699
Who directed Hurt Locker?

1123
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:01.559
Catherine Bigelow.

1124
00:55:01.619 --> 00:55:04.860
Yes, Catherine Bigelow had the same thing happen to her.

1125
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:07.079
She was like, I think 7 years or something between 2 features

1126
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:10.440
because one was not as successful as it might have been.

1127
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:13.139
And so it's just an interesting way about an interesting book

1128
00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:18.599
about how gender still plays an important role in opportunities in

1129
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:18.960
Hollywood.

1130
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:19.619
So look it up.

1131
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:21.119
It actually destroyed her career.

1132
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:22.500
It destroyed her career.

1133
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:24.900
Like, I mean, Tango is not a bad film.

1134
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:26.579
It flopped, but it's not a bad film.

1135
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.500
It might not be into everybody's taste.

1136
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.440
But that destroyed her film career.

1137
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:32.940
She doesn't work in film anymore.

1138
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:37.679
She's a very successful and sought after television director, but

1139
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:41.880
she's never really been able to break back into film in

1140
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:42.300
Hollywood.

1141
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:43.679
Yes.

1142
00:55:43.739 --> 00:55:45.119
And it's just, yes, exactly.

1143
00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:47.460
But although, I mean, I'm sure if she decided, I mean, she changed

1144
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:51.059
career track to TV because they would have her and she was sick of

1145
00:55:51.059 --> 00:55:51.420
trying.

1146
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.639
The other, who knows, she could probably, I suspect she could

1147
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:55.920
probably now try and make a feature film.

1148
00:55:55.980 --> 00:55:57.179
So it's not the fact that they can never go back.

1149
00:55:57.239 --> 00:56:00.420
It's the fact that it'll take a lot longer for them to be allowed

1150
00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:01.679
to have another go.

1151
00:56:01.739 --> 00:56:04.739
The interesting thing, though, is in this book, Doctor Who is

1152
00:56:04.739 --> 00:56:08.699
explicitly name checked as one of the best things she's done on

1153
00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:09.179
television.

1154
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:12.659
And I think that's great that we are in the top. tier of her

1155
00:56:12.659 --> 00:56:14.219
creative output.

1156
00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:15.480
Yeah.

1157
00:56:16.500 --> 00:56:19.440
And that's the out.

1158
00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:21.300
I think that's definitely the out, don't you?

1159
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:22.679
Yeah, so great.

1160
00:56:22.739 --> 00:56:23.699
She's just now.

1161
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:25.320
Next year, but enough in time.

1162
00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:28.619
But also the 2nd episode, Hellbent, yes, which should be called

1163
00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:29.159
Heaven Sent.

1164
00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:29.880
Hellbent.

1165
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:33.900
Hellbent, I think, is a weaker story, but it is still gripping and

1166
00:56:33.900 --> 00:56:35.880
incredible all the way through because of her.

1167
00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:37.920
I was thinking about that this morning when I was watching.

1168
00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:40.440
I was thinking, yeah, with a less good director, that episode

1169
00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:43.860
would be middling to slightly painful.

1170
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:46.619
And instead, even though there are things that I don't like about

1171
00:56:46.619 --> 00:56:49.679
it from a script point of view, I think as a production, it is

1172
00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:50.579
fantastic.

1173
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:52.139
And it's her.

1174
00:56:52.139 --> 00:56:52.679
Like her.

1175
00:56:52.739 --> 00:56:58.199
Early scene, which, you know, that's the Shaggy Dog story.

1176
00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:01.559
You know, the time where the man came and he forced the president

1177
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:04.079
to resign without even getting up.

1178
00:57:04.139 --> 00:57:05.760
Yes, you know, his chair.

1179
00:57:05.820 --> 00:57:08.400
And, you know, people keep coming and see him and there's all

1180
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:10.019
these Western, like it's so weird.

1181
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:14.340
And like partly it's just because Capoldi's telling the story to

1182
00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:14.940
Clara.

1183
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:18.239
The doctors tell like the story to Clara and they're in Nevada and

1184
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:20.099
so the whole thing looks like a Western.

1185
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:21.659
Yes, yes, yes.

1186
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:23.519
Otherwise known as Spain, I suspect.

1187
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:25.800
California Spain.

1188
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:26.940
California Spain.

1189
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:30.360
Yeah, I think Nevada is probably in the Canary Islands.

1190
00:57:30.780 --> 00:57:31.980
Yeah, Nevada is definitely Spain.

1191
00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:34.260
Yeah, they're all the same. obviously it's just over the next

1192
00:57:34.260 --> 00:57:34.500
hill.

1193
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.260
I think they're just down the road from truth or consequences.

1194
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.239
Oh, probably.

1195
00:57:39.300 --> 00:57:41.039
Also a real place.

1196
00:57:41.099 --> 00:57:42.179
Yes.

1197
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:43.500
We looked it up.

1198
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.840
You know what you could do?

1199
00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:52.019
Well, you could put all of the non- like episode talk after as the

1200
00:57:52.019 --> 00:57:54.000
tag for like half an hour.

1201
00:57:54.059 --> 00:57:54.900
The longest tag.

1202
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:56.280
The tag is longer than the episode.

1203
00:57:56.340 --> 00:57:59.699
Well, I was very disappointed about the poor length of tag, I

1204
00:57:59.699 --> 00:58:00.420
think, in the last episode.

1205
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:02.699
It was only like 2 minutes, as opposed to 5 minutes.

1206
00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:03.360
What was it?

1207
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:04.019
I can't remember.

1208
00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:06.119
It was... what did you put out last week?

1209
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:08.940
I got inversions.

1210
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:09.719
What did we talk about?

1211
00:58:09.780 --> 00:58:10.739
I can even remember.

1212
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:11.460
I can't remember.

1213
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:13.559
Sometimes someone says, Actually, the episode maybe.

1214
00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:17.460
And sometimes someone, sometimes people start talking about their

1215
00:58:17.460 --> 00:58:20.880
personal lives in like a, do you know what I mean?

1216
00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:24.900
Like, that's often the tag is, uh, someone complaining about

1217
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:26.519
something or...

1218
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:27.599
Something in their lives.

1219
00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:28.380
Yeah, that's right.

1220
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:30.179
It's kind of like, all right, we'll cut that there then.

1221
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:30.599
Yeah.