WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:50:58 1 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:50.520 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flights or Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast made entirely of ghosts and edited and distributed by more ghosts. 2 00:00:50.579 --> 00:00:52.259 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:53.460 I'm Todd. 4 00:00:53.520 --> 00:01:03.000 I'm Peter, and I'm Tanya Miller's agent excitedly tapping on my phone that obviously she's got the next role because here she is as Madame Maxwell. 5 00:01:03.060 --> 00:01:05.579 She's so posh, she's Tanya. 6 00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:12.060 Well, it took us one week to get here, but for the doctor, it's been 4.5000000 years. 7 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:15.180 So I guess there's a right to be just a little bit cross. 8 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:24.780 Still, he's always been universally recognised as a mature and responsible adult, and so the high council almost certainly have nothing at all to worry about. 9 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:29.040 Let's see how it all goes down in hell bent. 10 00:01:41.099 --> 00:01:52.200 This was the biggest mystery of the entire season, because I've said over and over again, I didn't remember series 9 very well, and I had no idea what I thought of Hellbent at all. 11 00:01:52.260 --> 00:01:56.939 And while I've gone back and seen heaven sent a lot of times. 12 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:59.760 I haven't gone back to this one. 13 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:07.739 And so I've now watched it a few times in preparation for this, and I have to say, Todd, that I really liked it. 14 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:09.419 Really, Nathan? 15 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:09.900 Yeah. 16 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:10.800 Okay. 17 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:13.500 I'm not as enamoured. 18 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:16.139 You think that it goes to pieces after last week? 19 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:18.539 No, it goes to pieces. 20 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:18.900 I think. 21 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:20.639 Well, can I just be honest? 22 00:02:20.699 --> 00:02:22.680 I'm utterly exhausted. 23 00:02:22.740 --> 00:02:23.580 Yes. 24 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:25.439 I'm utterly exhausted, everyone. 25 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:29.039 Last time I was here, I was talking about the zygons. 26 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:39.840 I find the 2nd part of that Saigon 2 parter quite harrowing and triggering, especially events at the beginning of the episode, which just, with the plane exploding, I find that really tough. 27 00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:43.020 And then we go into sleep no more. 28 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:55.259 And you have all that camera work, that handheld camera work, which, you know, the older you get when you go to amusement parks and you go and rides to just go in the one circle and your equilibrium is gone for the day. 29 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.680 That's how I feel with the 1st 20 minutes of that episode. 30 00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:03.900 And for the rest of the day, I feel quite sick because I'm walking around, sort of sleep no more gave you motion sickness. 31 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:08.939 I mean, I don't mind the episode, but I'm saying, yeah, then face the raven. 32 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:09.599 Well, let's be honest. 33 00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:17.639 By halfway through, you just sort of know where it's going and the last 10 minutes are just harrowing in the extreme, especially all the stuff with Clara. 34 00:03:17.699 --> 00:03:20.099 And then last week is utterly superb. 35 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.159 But I'm just exhausted by the end of it. 36 00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:28.500 I'm just grateful that we're in a diner, we're in a barn and we're just staying put for a while. 37 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:29.280 Yeah. 38 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.800 I feel like you've been punching through a diamond wall for the last few episodes. 39 00:03:31.860 --> 00:03:36.180 Probably, but not to say some of this episodes are extraordinary. 40 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:37.860 I think this is good. 41 00:03:37.979 --> 00:03:44.699 But we get to a point where Clara comes back into it and I feel like I've got a hangover again and we're going over stuff, but we'll talk about that. 42 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:46.800 Good, but I don't think it's fantastic. 43 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:52.439 So she has already left about 4 or 5 times at this and has died 3 times. 44 00:03:53.219 --> 00:03:55.620 Storory model of companion. 45 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:56.340 Yeah, yeah. 46 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:56.699 Yeah. 47 00:03:56.819 --> 00:04:00.840 And so finally getting rid of her is actually a big task. 48 00:04:00.900 --> 00:04:02.819 We were going to say it was a blessing. 49 00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:07.500 I heard relief. 50 00:04:08.099 --> 00:04:12.000 Well, there'll be another year and then I'll be feeling a bit of relief, I think. 51 00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:14.340 I have to agree with you, Todd. 52 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:25.860 This is the thing that we identified, particularly in the 1st 2 parter, where all of the characters were people who had been in Doctor Who before and whom we had known for like a really long time. 53 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:38.819 And the Moffat model is kind of the girl who weighted model where the important elements of the story happen to our regular characters rather than one off guest characters. 54 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:45.240 And here, in this 2 parter, I think I counted 2 or 3 one off guest characters. 55 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:46.740 Is that quite likeable? 56 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:48.779 Shall we call him a chancellery guard? 57 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:51.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Garston or something? 58 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:53.759 I can't remember his name, but he's very cool. 59 00:04:53.819 --> 00:04:55.139 There's the little... 60 00:04:55.139 --> 00:04:56.519 He's the Hill Red or the Andred. 61 00:04:56.579 --> 00:04:57.300 Yeah, he is. 62 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:58.620 Yeah, only more attractive. 63 00:04:58.620 --> 00:05:04.980 And then we have the little boy who the doctor meets at the end of heaven's sent. 64 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:10.620 Oh, we have the woman in the barn who has about 3 lines and then pokes her head in and doesn't have any lines for see. 65 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:12.120 She's great. didn't mean her. 66 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:13.439 She's a little bit too minor. 67 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:21.120 I meant the guy who wakes the doctor up, the American guy in Nevada who says that Clara told me that you'd be confused or upset. 68 00:05:21.180 --> 00:05:26.579 Wouldn't have been amazing if that had been the guy from the Impossible Astronaut 2 parter. 69 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:27.360 Canton. 70 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:29.459 That would have been lovely. 71 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:33.360 See, that old woman, I kind of think, is either Leila or... 72 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:41.879 Or it's the woman, either that or it's the woman from the caretaker pilot episode of Voyager, who keeps offering people corn or something. 73 00:05:41.939 --> 00:05:44.459 Just come and have some pecan pie. 74 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:46.920 Oh, whatever, corn on the cob. 75 00:05:46.980 --> 00:05:50.699 Well, I wanted it to be Erna Stubbs. 76 00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:54.839 I am going to say that it is a character who's been on the show before. 77 00:05:54.899 --> 00:05:58.560 I think it's the woman in listen who we overtalk hearing. 78 00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:02.519 I think it's Engen after a particularly good regeneration grow-up. 79 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:03.360 Yeah, could be too. 80 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:04.079 Could be. 81 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:06.120 The listen thing sounds right. 82 00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:07.800 Because you hear he's nursemaid. 83 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.100 Yeah, talking about him joining the army and staff. 84 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:25.740 On that point, can I say that I actually split my opinion of this episode between the 2 of you and it's because of this, longtime listeners and podcasters will know that I have a problem with the time lords and how they're depicted in modern Doctor Who. 85 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.079 Because Time Lords are essentially boring. 86 00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:28.560 Yes. 87 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:33.120 In the old series, before Bob Holmes came along, they are just Deus X Macina. 88 00:06:33.180 --> 00:06:47.100 Bob Holmes hits on a way of making them interesting by pulling back the cloak or going under the bonnet and seeing that there are actually a bunch of power players and doddering old men and I don't know whatever Runsable was. 89 00:06:47.220 --> 00:06:56.459 And it's a mystery to me why Russell and Stephen, who are great writers, do not return to that model to make Gallifrey and Time Lords interesting. 90 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:08.879 So here, even though I like this episode, I think it's pretty good and pretty entertaining on its own merits, it feels like a missed opportunity because it should have been something interesting looking at time lord society and the way that the doctor interacts with them. 91 00:07:08.939 --> 00:07:16.800 It needed, in invasion of time, that Broussa and Andred, and Rodan, and people like that. 92 00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:19.259 It needed those people, Castellan Kelner. 93 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:21.060 Whereas we don't get anything like that. 94 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:22.980 And so the time lords are boring. 95 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:30.000 I think the time lords have always reflected what the media is showing the power play to be at the time. 96 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:41.399 And Bob Holmes was, I would suggest at the time, looking at Robert Graves actually looking at Dame Derek Jacoby and Sir Sian Phillips in I Claudius. 97 00:07:41.459 --> 00:08:04.139 And there was a nice little nod to that, because just like the doctor is always somehow contemporaneous, so are the time lords, whereas now, we've had all of the Blair thing, we've had all of the Gulf War business, and now we've got the falling apart of establishments, and there is a lot of toothiness, there's a lot of hawkishness in, and I'm talking about the British government. 98 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:06.360 I mean, that's a perfectly valid model as well. 99 00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:18.660 Yeah, and the militarisation and weaponisation of politics is, I think, what we're seeing here and also that they like a bit of flash and bang because we have a large television market and this is what they like, just to be a bit obvious. 100 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:20.639 But how has that not been made interesting? 101 00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:22.800 How are these characters not that interesting? 102 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:24.720 You've got great people playing them. 103 00:08:24.779 --> 00:08:28.259 Ken Bones is fantastic and has the most fantastic name ever. 104 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:28.920 Yeah. 105 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:33.960 And obviously we will get to Dame Tanya Miller, but how were the characters not interesting? 106 00:08:34.019 --> 00:08:36.659 How are we not interested in the dynamics between these characters? 107 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.159 How do they not have their own agendas? 108 00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:42.840 They're just there as dressing for the story of the doctor, which is kind of the story of Moffatt's Doctor Who. 109 00:08:42.899 --> 00:08:47.039 I mean, you've got Ohela and you've got, who is the most interesting character? 110 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:48.720 And she's beautifully played, obviously. 111 00:08:48.779 --> 00:08:51.539 Well, she has to do with glower under a tea tail. 112 00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:54.000 Everyone shakes. 113 00:08:54.059 --> 00:08:56.460 I mean, she is actually the closest to one of those characters. 114 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:03.840 So I was talking about in Stanford or 2 and that she comes in and she comments on what's going on rather than being a driving force in the scene. 115 00:09:03.899 --> 00:09:07.440 Yeah, the most BBC classics of everyone, yeah. 116 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:07.679 Yes. 117 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:14.519 I don't even mean that mockingly, if I was looking back at I Claudius, she's definitely doing the, the eye line to the side of the camera. 118 00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:21.000 You can imagine her and Castellan spandrel in the corner, sort of having a drink and commenting on what was going on. 119 00:09:21.059 --> 00:09:22.080 Hissing. 120 00:09:22.139 --> 00:09:24.539 What do you think about Donald Sumter? 121 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:27.480 his triumphant return to Doctor Who as Rassalon. 122 00:09:27.539 --> 00:09:31.440 I think never marry for looks because he was so hot in the Wheeland space. 123 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:34.080 Is that what he was in last? 124 00:09:34.139 --> 00:09:42.059 Yeah, he was in the C double as well, but he's really cute as Enrico Cassali in Wheeling Space. and we all prune up in the end. 125 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:42.659 Yeah. 126 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:49.500 I thought you were comparing him to Timothy Dalton. who apparently was asked back for this and wasn't available. 127 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:50.100 Yeah. 128 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:51.539 I mean, he's he was great. 129 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:52.620 I did really like him. 130 00:09:52.620 --> 00:10:02.100 And I, I mean, I like that version of the Time Lords in that suddenly they're actually much worse than the dialects. 131 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:13.200 They're the worst thing that the doctor has ever faced and it's what you were saying about Russell's relationship with Tony Blair, you know, who's exciting when Tony Blair comes in and them there's the Iraq war. 132 00:10:13.259 --> 00:10:15.659 So he kills him, has him fall out of a cupboard. 133 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:16.379 Yeah, yeah. 134 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:21.419 Every year he kills. the Prime Minister of Great Britain. 135 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:25.980 So here you have that model of the Time Lords. 136 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.820 The time lords are evil because they've imprisoned the doctor. 137 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:50.039 And then you have this sort of amazing thing where we get this shaggy dog story at the beginning where the doctor just sits there and eats soup until he manages to overthrow the entire Timelord government and he yeats Donald Sumter into the sun from the little top of the sort of Gallifrean city. 138 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:52.139 I think that is incredible. 139 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.539 I think that whole secret. 140 00:10:54.600 --> 00:11:10.620 I thought of Utah, when the attractive young head of the chancellery card, without the robes, says put down your weapons and accompany me to the Capitol, and he puts down the soup spoon that he's been trying to eat soup with. 141 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:17.340 And, of course, Robot of Sherwood establishes that a spoon in the doctor's hand can be a deadly weapon. 142 00:11:17.460 --> 00:11:18.899 So Wester McCoy proof that. 143 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:28.500 I think it's really interesting we're talking about the timewards because I was thinking about this earlier and Russell brought back Wrestleon. 144 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:29.039 Yeah. 145 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:45.779 And when all of the end of time happened and that all disappeared, and then we had the day at the doctor, and Moffat concentrated on the 2nd city, Arcadia, which is where Ken Bones was. 146 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:47.399 Is that, am I correct or not? 147 00:11:47.460 --> 00:11:53.100 I get the impression that they're actually in the same building, that they are in the main city. 148 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:59.100 Yeah, because I think Ken Bones in Day of the Doctor says something about Wrestleon sort of scheming upstairs. 149 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:01.620 Like he may even use the word upstairs. 150 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:06.360 But it's definitely happening at the same time but in different rooms, isn't it? 151 00:12:06.419 --> 00:12:07.379 Yes that's right. 152 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:19.620 And I just kind of didn't really know what had happened to sort of wrestle on considering how out of control he was back in the end of time and with things sort of being rewritten by Stephen. 153 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:27.899 I just kind of thought, well, has he redeemed himself and gotten rid of the Daleks and he's no longer in charge, you know? 154 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.500 I didn't expect him to be suddenly back in a new incarnation. 155 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:36.779 And then sort of been basically dethrown and said, get off my planet and that's the end of him. 156 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:40.200 It's just interesting seeing how the timelines are dealt with here. 157 00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:47.100 I mean, obviously, having Ken Bones back is great with that bit of continuity and having Oheila in there as well. 158 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:49.019 But they could be anybody. 159 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.919 I mean, he talks about getting rid of the high council, who we really don't see much of it. 160 00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:53.940 They're just nameless people. 161 00:12:54.000 --> 00:13:05.820 It's just like both Russell and Stephen don't really want to deal with anybody else other than perhaps the big name wrestle on and everybody else is just, it's a problem with the time lords. 162 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:06.899 That's where I'm trying to go with it. 163 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:11.700 It's like you've hit your diamond wall again where you're not really following the story of the time lords. 164 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:17.220 I don't think Moffatt's interested in the time lords any more than he's interested in the Daleks. 165 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:18.240 You shouldn't use them. 166 00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:34.919 Well, but I think what he's using is that kind of weird iconography of the time lords, you know, making the time lords weird and mystical in a way that Russell sort of gestures at whenever he describes the time war, it's something that you can't picture. 167 00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:38.399 He uses strange language to describe what's going on and stuff. 168 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:39.539 It's very odd. 169 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:52.559 Here we have the Matrix being a computer made out of ghosts, you know, and the just everything sort of at the bottom of the city is kind of weird and eldritch and mythical. 170 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:53.879 Like the underclass. 171 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:54.720 Yeah, yeah. 172 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.539 I mean, isn't this what I was saying on the end of time? 173 00:13:57.539 --> 00:14:00.240 Where if you're going to use the time lord? 174 00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:01.259 you have to make them interesting. 175 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.100 What Russell said when he came back is we don't want people in robes thespian at each other. 176 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:10.620 And that's exactly what the time lords are. in every Russell story and every Moffat story where they appeared. to the sliders. 177 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:13.919 The shifting gallery of retired British thespians. 178 00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:16.919 I really wanted it. 179 00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:20.460 I really wanted Capaldi to take a pot shot at one of those. 180 00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:23.159 Or like Clara to play frogger between... 181 00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:26.759 I also wanted Clara to marry that chancellory guard at the end. 182 00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:28.500 Yeah, that's awesome. 183 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:28.980 Wow. 184 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:30.960 I've decided to stay here, doctor. 185 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:43.559 I like the fact that we're at the barn and everything's coming back to the barn and we just snowed things down a bit and you get some beautiful shots like from outside of the landscape and all that. 186 00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:45.179 And I like that 1st 20 minutes. 187 00:14:45.240 --> 00:15:16.440 I mean, yes, it's maybe it is perfunctory in terms of dealing with the time wards, but we have finally found Gallifrey, and it appears that the confession dials are all that you need in order to get back to your home planet, like this is another confusing thing for me, like this is mentioned early on, like it's the last will and testament, but then we get zapped into the last will and testament via a teleport and then we're in there and we just have to let ourselves out of it and we're suddenly home. like we've been searching for Gallifrey. 188 00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:18.240 Am I totally confused or not? 189 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.080 teleported in? 190 00:15:19.139 --> 00:15:20.039 Can you be teleported out? 191 00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:24.659 But why have like Stephen set up this last will and testament, but then it's not really that? 192 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.779 Can every time, Lord, wherever they are, just do this, then get home? 193 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:28.740 Do you know what I mean? 194 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:29.940 Like, I'm just confused. 195 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:30.899 I'm sorry. 196 00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:33.179 For heaven sent to work. 197 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:38.159 The doctor needs to be able to tell how much time has passed just by looking at the stars. 198 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:50.879 And so it says that the teleport that's brought him to the mysterious Clockwork Castle hasn't transported him in time and has only taken him less than a light year away. 199 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:58.799 And that's just so that we can have those scenes where the doctor says nearly a 1000000000 years, more than a 1000000000 years, you know, and so on. 200 00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:24.360 But that doesn't explain how on the other end of the Asbantium wall is Galifray, and he's not going to explain that, there is an explanation for what confession dials are, like they're to give time lords an opportunity to think through their lives and make their peace with themselves before they die. 201 00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:29.039 But I think that he's, yeah, I think. 202 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.159 I thought it was the conscious appendices of the Matrix. 203 00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:36.480 I thought that it was in a way an a physical addendum or a key. 204 00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:46.379 I mean, look, you know, it's Stephen Moffatt, so it can be whatever you want. he's he does play fast and loose with us, I would say, he's children of time, does. 205 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:48.600 And I'm really with Todd on this one too. 206 00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:50.519 I'm not sure where Peter is or you are. 207 00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:54.840 I love that I have to think, but I also like to have a result to that thinking. 208 00:16:54.899 --> 00:17:02.759 I like to be able to see that I have solved a puzzle rather than just fallen into a swamp of sticky, icy, whatever this is. 209 00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:04.980 You always want to think that you've cracked the code. 210 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.099 They don't want the writer to have been like, it can be whatever you want. 211 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:08.880 I don't want that. 212 00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:14.220 I do want the clues Moffat normally does do that, but that is something that he has left unanswered. 213 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.140 How did we get to gala phrase for me? 214 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.420 coming from. what I'm getting from what Todd's saying. 215 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:19.920 Yes, that's what I'm saying. 216 00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:44.400 Like, you know, you're left up to yourself to sort of come to a conclusion that you're satisfied with, but sometimes I do want more concrete answers than what is given there. which is not to say that it's a bad thing, but it's, you know, something for me that's, that just sits with me going, well, yeah, okay, but we've also got other, you know, who's the hybrid? 217 00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:48.960 Is it, is it half human, half Galifrain, a nod to the TV movie? 218 00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:50.400 Is it 2 people? 219 00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.319 Is it half mire, half human? 220 00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:53.579 What is it? 221 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:54.119 You know? 222 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.480 And so again, you don't get, I don't think, a clear answer on that. 223 00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:00.000 No, I think we'll get to that. 224 00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:10.619 I think we will get to that because I think it is super interesting, and that final line, which I always forget the final line of heaven sent, where it says, the hybrid is me. 225 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:15.180 Um, and... 226 00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:19.799 And everyone's waiting for Grace 1999. to run in in a ballground. 227 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.220 And this story where he heads off into the TARDIS, that beautiful TARDIS. 228 00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:24.839 Oh my god. 229 00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:27.059 My favourite of the reboot. 230 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:28.019 It looks amazing. 231 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:29.519 And the novels. 232 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:36.779 At the end of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Yes. 233 00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:39.299 Did you have a Debbie Wattling moment? 234 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:40.559 Look at all these knobs. 235 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.759 No, Todd was walking along saying, who was that terrible woman? 236 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:55.619 What you're saying is it's part of the cumulative effect of not quite following along with storage season being bombarded with things. 237 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:02.519 The fact that we don't get answers to this is maybe just one step too far, where at the end you slightly throw up your hands and say, I needed more than that. 238 00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:04.380 You know where he's going with this, don't you? 239 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:09.240 Stephen Moffat is a literary science fiction fan and he reads a lot. 240 00:19:09.299 --> 00:19:15.420 Now, in the last around the 5 to 10 years around this story, which is now, what, 11, 12 years ago. 241 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.400 The con... 242 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:24.539 We've talked about, I know, we've talked about this before with Spanish or the Latin style of magic realism in writing. 243 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:30.359 Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the, you know, the Nobel Prize winner, Jorge Louis Borges, who pick of the week. 244 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:36.599 The thing of a concept within a concept, within a concept and you're left to solve it, basically. 245 00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.420 But it's a whole style of speculative fiction. 246 00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:44.579 China Mabel does it, you know, in the city and the city throws a lot of those. 247 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.200 It's very much the now of this period, way of writing SF. 248 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.400 And he's challenging us and saying, especially this thing with a hybrid as well. 249 00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:55.740 What do you feel it is, dear reader? 250 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:04.799 I think as well that Moffatt's instinct isn't just to give you bad answers because he doesn't think that they're satisfying. 251 00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:05.519 Yes. 252 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:17.819 See, you know, the beginning of Sherlock, the final series of Sherlock, where what we get is various reenactments of possibilities about how Sherlock could have survived, you know, plummeting off the thing. 253 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:19.980 British detective writing. 254 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:21.839 I mean, a lot of them do it, yeah. 255 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:27.660 I think that we land pretty on it's the doctor and Clara. 256 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:30.480 I tend to think that me is getting it right. 257 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:34.799 No, I agree with you, like because she talks about Missy putting them together. 258 00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:35.460 Yeah. 259 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:42.839 And the hybrid is both of them as opposed to my human, dalek, time Lord, time Lord, half human, like any of those combinations. 260 00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:49.140 But it's interesting that at the beginning of the episode, the president wants to know the answer to what is the hybrid. 261 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:56.160 And the 1st time we've heard about the hybrid is the beginning of this season because it's suddenly an old time lord myth or something like that. 262 00:20:56.220 --> 00:21:00.000 So it's all just introduced in this season to be solved in this season. 263 00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:03.420 It's like saying, well, you're the timeless child. 264 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:04.079 Yeah. 265 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:08.880 I think he's taking the piss out of Paul McGain's one and only trip in the dark. 266 00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:09.779 Oh, definitely. 267 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.900 There is that moment where you're supposed to think that he's half human. 268 00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:16.799 Doesn't me say to him, how come you spend so much time on earth? 269 00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:20.700 It's cheaper there, dear. are already built. 270 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:28.440 It's the kind of thing that Ross used to talk about in interviews where his starting point for something would be that he and Phil Collinson had a fan discussion. 271 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:51.480 We were hooting and then he'd just like go off on a tangent like that. gorgeous So the hybrid thing, I think, is deliberately given lots of possible meanings, but I do think it resolves into Clara and the doctor, which is why we have to go to such incredible lengths to break them up, why they need to be stopped. 272 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.119 Just for the audience's sake. 273 00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:58.559 Which is why me has called me just to add some fun to that. 274 00:21:58.619 --> 00:21:59.579 Yeah, yeah. 275 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:00.059 Yeah. 276 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:02.339 She is incredibly good in this episode, I think. 277 00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:03.599 She is much in this episode. 278 00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:07.619 I didn't think she was good in the woman who lived, but I think she is good here. 279 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.200 She is, and I love her Priscilla Presley hair. 280 00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:11.940 Yeah, it's bad, isn't it? 281 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:12.779 exactly what it is. 282 00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:16.859 I've been thinking about that because I was going, what hair is it? 283 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:24.420 And I kept thinking it's Danny Minogue from Home and Away when she played Amen, and then I realised, no, that's styled, that's actually styled on Priscilla Presley's hair. 284 00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:26.220 Like, so that's fair, yeah. 285 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:26.759 Wow. 286 00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:29.099 Sorry, it's all about the hair. 287 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:29.700 Have you got it? 288 00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:30.599 Power behind the throne. 289 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.119 But no, she's great here and it's great that, you know, she's... 290 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.019 Yes, I know. 291 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:42.119 But the character's tying up so much to do with the missy plot, all these conclusions. 292 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:45.480 Stephen is concluding we've found Gallifrey. 293 00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:48.900 Clara's going, me's done. 294 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.839 Missy's sort of done in terms of her plot. 295 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:53.039 Everything is being tied up. 296 00:22:53.099 --> 00:22:55.740 You almost get a sense of like he's ready to leave. 297 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:57.660 Like, oh, yes, absolutely. 298 00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:04.619 In next in the Christmas special, we're tying up the final loose end of River Song and then he's going to head over to somebody new. 299 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:05.400 I just get that feeling. 300 00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:06.660 Oh, absolutely that. 301 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.759 Was that ever part of the scheme? 302 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:10.319 Oh, that was the... 303 00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:11.099 I did not know this. 304 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.220 And so heaven sent is him saying, here's what I can do. 305 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:24.660 And he sets himself a goal of writing a thing with Jessica Poldi as the only actor and with no timey whiminess. 306 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.339 Everything that happens in heaven sent happens in chronological order. 307 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.839 Gorgeous organic plotting. 308 00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:33.000 Have we ever had, well, not since deadly assassin? 309 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:36.180 So I think Blink is like this, but it's sort of slightly different. 310 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.059 I think Russell's closest analogue would be midnight. 311 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:45.059 You know, again, because it has formal constraints, it's all set in one room with a small group of characters. 312 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.940 So he's setting himself a task there. 313 00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:49.740 And Moffins... 314 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:59.160 So Moffatt is doing this, I think, to show on the way out what he's capable of doing, and what Rachel Talalay is capable of doing, what Murray can do. 315 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:01.680 Also, what have I got left that I haven't done so much? 316 00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:02.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 317 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:03.240 Last hurrah. 318 00:24:03.299 --> 00:24:05.519 I mean, Rachel is amazing. 319 00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:06.900 This is cinematic. 320 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.039 Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 321 00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:09.539 But going back to what you're saying also, Nathan. 322 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:15.420 Like he's also with the whole cloisters thing, we suddenly get flashes of a Dalek cyberman. 323 00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.240 Yeah, weeping angels, yes. all of his... 324 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:21.359 It's greatest kids. 325 00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:25.259 There should have been a Varden in there if it's people invading Gallifrey. 326 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:26.220 That would have been amazing. 327 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:28.259 Maybe the Scottish Martin. 328 00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:32.640 But why not? 329 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:38.579 So, you know, this is huge. 330 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.279 This is what he's trying to do and he expects not to come back. 331 00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:45.960 Chibnell's not ready, and so he agrees in order to keep the show going. 332 00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:47.700 He agrees to do a 10th series. 333 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.279 But he's exhausted. 334 00:24:50.339 --> 00:25:11.039 One of the things, I can't remember whether I said this last week, but El Sandafar thinks that we should think something fairly obvious about a story where a grey-haired Scotsman keeps doing the same thing over and over and over again for years and years and years until he wishes he was dead, you know? 335 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:14.460 Finally breaks through. 336 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:18.180 That's right And so it's also Moffat too. 337 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.960 You know, he's definitely his farewell run at the show. 338 00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:28.380 And I do think that the 2 episodes together are exhausting, but they're also properly epic, I think. 339 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:35.400 Part of me wishes that, I mean, I know it doesn't work in story terms, that like the Pandoraca opens in the Big Bang. 340 00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:46.200 It had been the other way round where you'd had the big flashy Gallifrey stuff 1st and then the confession dial stuff where you just bring the focus all the way down to just the doctor at the end would have been quite nice. 341 00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:49.740 I know it doesn't work for the story's telling, but yeah, you'd have to tell a different story. 342 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:50.579 Yeah, yeah. 343 00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:50.940 Yeah. 344 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.779 Can we talk a little bit about the framing device? 345 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:59.700 So, we're in Nevada. and the doctor turns up at the same cafe that he was in in the Impossible Astronaut, although it's on the other side of the road now, and Clara is there, and he's playing Clara's theme, that beautiful theme, you know, on the on the electric guitar, and it's the usual Moffatt thing with those kinds of framing devices, where at the halfway point we discover something about how that narrative works, which we didn't know before that changes the entire thing, or it doesn't happen here, but it has happened earlier in the season in sleep no more, which is gators, where the framing 346 00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:03.599 device, the story interferes with itself. 347 00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:08.339 So the way the story is being told actually affects the story itself. 348 00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:15.599 So we have Erasmus and in another room, creating this episode while events in the episode are going on. 349 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:33.599 Here, I think that when we hear that the doctor plans to wipe Clara's memory, we realise, I think that, like, Clara can't recognise the doctor, right? 350 00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:41.519 And I think that we're supposed to think that Clara has lost her memory of the doctor and that the doctor has come to visit her to say goodbye. 351 00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:44.819 And we're primed to think that because it's happened in Doctor Who before. 352 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.480 Yeah. 353 00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:45.960 Yeah. 354 00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:46.500 Yeah. 355 00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:55.680 And then we discover at the end, know that it's the doctor who can't recognise Clara and because she reversed the Polaris. 356 00:27:55.740 --> 00:27:59.339 Yeah, because she reversed the polarity and he's lost his memory of her. 357 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:06.539 And then we reinterpret that entire diner as the TARDIS that we escaped in. 358 00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:16.140 And presumably, because it was on the other side of the road in the impossible astronaut, it was Clara's TARDIS in the impossible astronaut the whole time. 359 00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:17.519 All the time. 360 00:28:17.579 --> 00:28:20.160 You've just blown my mind. 361 00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:24.480 Because I'm just struggling to keep up with you with all of this. 362 00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:27.960 So we have the whole framing device of the diner. 363 00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:28.619 Yep. 364 00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:35.220 Up until when he goes in to get her out of the face the raven. 365 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.259 Does it stop then and just come back at the end? 366 00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:38.160 or am I wrong? 367 00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:40.559 No, no, it does happen quite a bit. 368 00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:52.559 Remember, there's the bit where she says, do all of them turn up with guns or something and she says, wow, you really do love a cliffhanger to him, like she interrupts, she interrupts it. 369 00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:54.480 You're a bit aracaneta, right? 370 00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:56.160 They are really great. 371 00:28:56.220 --> 00:29:09.180 And in fact, I think that they affect the way the story is being told at the beginning because it's a little bit too much that they look like the Wild West, you know, all of the, are they Shaboogans, who cares? 372 00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:16.380 They are whatever they are, but the people on Gallifrey all look like they're from the, you know, Wild West in the... 373 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:17.579 Oh, I noticed him. 374 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:17.819 Yeah. 375 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:24.299 But because the story is a shaggy dog story that the doctor's telling. 376 00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:38.279 He's telling the story about how he turned up on Gallifrey and they just kept sending people and he kept refusing to speak to them until finally he manages without saying anything to force Donald Sumter to get off his planet. 377 00:29:38.339 --> 00:29:43.859 How I wish it hadn't been Donald Sumter if he just had wrestle on from the 5 doctors in the sky. 378 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:45.660 The Wizard of Oz. 379 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:46.380 I know. 380 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.279 So all of that stuff is great. 381 00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.240 The, the, the way the framing story affects how we see the story. 382 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:55.559 We're never seeing the story. 383 00:29:55.619 --> 00:29:58.559 We're hearing Capoldi's version of the story. 384 00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:00.779 Okay. 385 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:06.900 Sorry, I'm just, I'm just totally, and that is magic confused at this point in time. 386 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:12.000 Because does that stop around the extraction chamber time and then just come back into play at the end or not? 387 00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:13.920 No, no, it keeps going all the way through. 388 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:15.359 It does keep going all the way through. 389 00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:20.039 But there's a point where we realise that he's lost his memory. 390 00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:21.960 That he's the one who's lost his memory. 391 00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:22.980 Because we're quite late on. 392 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:27.779 Because when he's in the extraction chamber, he asks for something to wipe a human's memory, doesn't it? 393 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:29.039 So Clara. 394 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:31.859 And we go, ah, that's why Clara can't remember him. 395 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:33.960 But Clara versus the polarity later on. 396 00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:48.480 It's kind of funny because like in the previous season when she went to get all of those keys, you think he had the memory patch, you know, something and so sort of reversed a bit, like she gets the upper hand as opposed to him getting an upper hand in that case. 397 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:54.240 We get to that point we're suddenly getting the extraction chamber and he goes and gets her out of face the raven. 398 00:30:54.240 --> 00:31:01.319 And it's at that point that I begin to go, oh, no, we're going over all of this dialogue again. 399 00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:08.039 And I'm sort of like really quite exhausted from the 1st time round. you know, we have to have these conversations. 400 00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:10.200 And not to say that they are brilliant. 401 00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:22.920 I mean, there's some wonderful stuff down in the cloisters with her and him and she's got tears in her eyes and stuff like that and and just the whole when she's talking to the time lords and it's all just a ruse. 402 00:31:23.099 --> 00:31:25.500 That's so good. 403 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:27.480 Like they're such good, but there's also this... 404 00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:28.500 What did you whisper to him? 405 00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:29.400 They'll be looking at me. 406 00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:30.359 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 407 00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:33.180 It just, I can tell you just one of the things that he said, don't worry. 408 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:35.400 But also they'll be looking at me. 409 00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:36.359 Yeah. 410 00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:38.039 As in me. 411 00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:50.279 But, you know, then you're going into the heart and esque tanas, which is just phenomenal, but they keep on having, you know, is her heart beat back and all that, just, I just find it. not saying it's not good. 412 00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:51.539 I think it is good. 413 00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:58.619 I found those things a little bit heartbreaking, actually, where they keep referring to my heartbeat's not back and you just get this sense of this ominous sense. 414 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:00.180 It's not going to work out. 415 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:02.460 It really is a crash, isn't it? 416 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:11.039 It really is a moment, a beat in the drama in the drum when you just feel that, ah, this is not the day of sex mechanism. 417 00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:11.640 Yeah, yeah. 418 00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:13.440 She is not redeemed and saved. 419 00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:16.019 This is merely a pause and it's very poignant. 420 00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:26.519 For me, I think it's the same for Todd, maybe, but this is much darker and sadder than I remembered this episode being at the time because at the time I was so overwhelmed with all the goings on. 421 00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:27.599 Yeah, yeah. 422 00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:33.900 But I shared with Todd I was also exhausted But I think I think dealing with all these other questions at the same time. 423 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:35.880 I've struggled a bit with his episode. 424 00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:42.839 There's moments where I don't remember, like, obviously, as well because I'm still trying to process everything else. 425 00:32:42.900 --> 00:32:49.079 But I still come back to that moment where she's got tears in her eyes and she asks him why. 426 00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:53.460 And he said, I had a duty of care and just the inflections in his voice at that point. 427 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:58.440 And just, I mean, Peter Capaldi is just phenomenal. 428 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.140 And Jenna Calman, and I just think are just a phenomenal threat, this. 429 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:13.740 Moffatt describes that scene as the best scene in heaven sent because what it does is it gets us to go back and reevaluate what the doctor was doing. 430 00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:25.980 And the doctor says that he knew all along where he was and what was going on, and that he deliberately waited 4.5000000 years. 431 00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:34.019 He went the long way round in order to end up in Galafray so he could get to the extraction chamber and so that he could get her back. 432 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.839 And so all of that's done for her benefit. 433 00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:41.039 And just her response to that is so amazing. 434 00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:45.059 Doesn't she just say something like, like get over it? 435 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.700 You know, like everyone loses people. everyone loses people. 436 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:55.680 She is uniquely qualified to talk about that in the recent seasons. 437 00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:56.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 438 00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:57.359 That's right. 439 00:33:57.420 --> 00:34:00.420 She herself underwent this sort of incredible loss. 440 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.940 And he just can't get over it. 441 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:15.840 And he does this thing, this huge operatic thing that we found so moving and impressive last week and it just turns out to be some dumb grandiose man pain thing that he did. 442 00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:26.099 And she's horrified at the lengths that he went to and how he abased and harmed himself so much just to get her back. 443 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:31.019 We do leave her behind with one heartbeat left. 444 00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:40.739 We leave her behind with Maisie Williams, but in a way, everyone that the doctor leaves behind will then grow old and die. 445 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:42.480 It happens to literally everyone. 446 00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:44.940 We all have to face the raven. 447 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.519 Stay tuned for Tales of the TARDS. 448 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:57.300 Oh, doctor, I've missed you so much. heaps of them are dead though. 449 00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.760 But on screen, then not. 450 00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:06.480 So I think that scene is incredible and I agree with you, Todd. 451 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.239 I think both of them do an incredible job of it. 452 00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:10.440 It's really quite amazing. 453 00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:12.539 There's just so many moments. 454 00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:22.980 Like, you know, when she says that he's stealing a TARDIS and running away and but her at the end, like saying to me, you know, she's going the long way round. 455 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.000 Yeah, you know. 456 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:29.460 I do then think about things like, you know, her school and her family back on earth. 457 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:31.800 Will they ever see her again on Maretta? 458 00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:32.940 Well, no, I do. 459 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:44.099 I do think like she could actually keep popping in and saying she's travelling and that sort of thing until her grandmother passes away rather than the horrible Perry situation where one day she's on a boat and then she's a missing person, you know? 460 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.579 So that sort of plays into my mind a little bit. 461 00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:55.139 Like, you know, we're never going to see me and Clara again, even though they're out there in their flying cafe, you know. 462 00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.719 The flying big finish box set. 463 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.539 I mean, there's that... 464 00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:06.659 That final shot where the police box goes in one direction and the diner goes in the other direction. 465 00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:09.059 The attraction, ridiculousness of Doctor Who. amazing. 466 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.079 But it's also, so I guess we have to follow the police box then. 467 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.480 Well, I'll do that anyway. 468 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:17.579 But do you know what I mean? 469 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.099 It's like, it is, like, she's him. 470 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:26.820 The whole thing, she has been being punished for being him, but her reward is she gets to be him. 471 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.019 Oh, that we'd had a little bit of dialogue saying that she wasn't me's companion. 472 00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:32.099 Me was her compat. 473 00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:33.840 Oh, I definitely think that's the case though. 474 00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:35.039 That's how it seems to be. 475 00:36:35.099 --> 00:36:37.320 Yeah, she's operating the TARDIS. 476 00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:38.639 I mean she knows what she's doing. 477 00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:40.320 She steals a TARDIS. 478 00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:42.780 She's a complex space-time event. 479 00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:46.739 She goes off to explore the universe. 480 00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:47.880 There's an end. 481 00:36:48.059 --> 00:36:52.320 There will be an end, but, you know, the doctor has an end as well. everyone does. 482 00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:56.280 Now, I love the fact that she says, go afraid they're on a long way round. 483 00:36:56.280 --> 00:37:05.340 But then also then, those concluding moments where, you know, in earlier in the episodes, she's talking about his coat and she liked the velvet one. 484 00:37:05.340 --> 00:37:08.340 And then he goes back into the TARDIS. 485 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:21.960 And that, just those phenomenal moments with the lights going off and, you know, run you clever boy on the chalkboard and the new Sonic and his coat and all that, just you just feel like a weight's been lifted and we're ready to start. 486 00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:31.079 Yeah, I hate to say it because I've railed against this kind of thing before, but maybe we don't need the definitive answers that we were seeking because there's such an emotional payoff season. 487 00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:34.619 Yeah, and emotions don't give you straight linear answers. 488 00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:38.099 And life doesn't give us linear directions either. 489 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:40.139 I'm getting where you're wanting to go with this. 490 00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:42.480 I mean, the long way around. 491 00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:45.539 Yeah, yeah, you know, just like this podcast. 492 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:45.960 Thank you. 493 00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:47.639 No, this season, the long way round. 494 00:37:47.699 --> 00:37:48.840 I think, Todd, you got it. 495 00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:56.280 Todd's conversation, this episode has allowed me to come to this point realising where we, that our expectations. 496 00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:59.099 We're not going to be fulfilled, but we got something maybe more interesting. 497 00:37:59.219 --> 00:38:01.139 We followed you through it to the realisation. 498 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:04.500 This season's never. 499 00:38:04.619 --> 00:38:10.559 People don't sort of go and rave about it or talk about it as much as others that I don't even want to face the raving. 500 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:14.219 The gift door, the title. 501 00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:21.059 But that's the nature of this season, I think, you know, and I think it's something that you just can't revisit, like, pop into episodes. 502 00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:25.619 You've got to really encompass the whole thing, which is an experience, you know? 503 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:28.559 Look, I mean, it's heavy and it's hard going. 504 00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:35.760 And last night I watched episodes 11 and 12, one after the other and I was a bit exhausted by it. 505 00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:38.699 And you do kind of wonder what it had to offer to the general public? 506 00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:40.380 Yeah, yeah. was thinking that too. 507 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:41.219 What were the ratings? 508 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.420 Not great. 509 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:43.559 I can't imagine. 510 00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.719 It would be very hard to follow if you, even if as a fan. 511 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:53.639 I mean, I found myself kind of wanting the adipose back, really, at some point. because that's the Doctor Who that I really love. 512 00:38:53.760 --> 00:39:10.500 I'm glad the Doctor Who can do this and I'm glad that when a very talented writer gets hold of it, he does something brilliant and epic and weird with it and emotional and kind of harrowing. 513 00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:13.139 But I don't want Doctor Who to be like this all the time. 514 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.599 It got over 6 million, like 6 million. 515 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:15.780 Okay. 516 00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:28.260 Which is like in terms of the season context, like that's, you know, it's holding between mid-highs to low sixes and it got an audience appreciation of 82, right? 517 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.400 Which is not bad. 518 00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:33.480 Aliens of London level. which is more than last week, which only got an AI of 80. 519 00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:35.280 But what do the general public know? 520 00:39:35.340 --> 00:39:37.500 But the statistical noise. 521 00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:38.519 Yeah. 522 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:52.380 But the audience, the percentage audience is like the mid-20s, like 25, 26%, whereas, and I've talked about this before, we've been eroding that away slowly, but surely, like, you know, for some time from the low 30s. 523 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:53.039 So, yeah. 524 00:39:53.099 --> 00:40:13.380 I mean, I think it probably goes back to the way that the time lords are presented, maybe the general public is viewing Doctor Who now through that same prism of when you tune into Doctor Who, you get people in rogues thesping at each other because you actually do get that in the story for all of its cleverness and all of its emotional wallop. 525 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:16.739 And it's incomprehensible outside of its context. 526 00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:22.679 And maybe that's okay for the season finale, but I think if you tuned into doomsday. 527 00:40:22.739 --> 00:40:27.900 You would have a pretty clear idea what was going on, even if you hadn't seen the previous episode. 528 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:34.619 I just want to make clear you're talking about the series 2 finale Doomsday and not the multimedia platform event Doomsday. 529 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:35.760 No, I haven't seen that. 530 00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:37.079 That's for other people to enjoy. 531 00:40:37.860 --> 00:40:40.079 In inverted comments. 532 00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:59.340 I think it's interesting that the doctor is willing to punch and shoot a time law in order to generate, which is which is pretty extreme, you know, and then to get the surprise of Tanya Miller suddenly standing up and saying that, you know, it's glad that she's a woman again, like, and it's extraordinary. 533 00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:00.719 What about that, right? 534 00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:15.360 So Moffat doesn't ever cast a female doctor and I'm kind of a bit happy about that because I think Moffat is very feminist in all sorts of ways, but he is probably not the right person to introduce a female doctor. 535 00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:16.980 We would have had a very gun girl. 536 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:18.599 You know how he writes for women. 537 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.820 Yeah, it would have been it would have been a Clara. 538 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:21.480 Yeah. 539 00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:22.139 Yeah. 540 00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:24.599 He's actually already written the female doctor. 541 00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:25.619 That's exactly right. 542 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:29.820 So he introduces a companion who shows you that a female doctor works. 543 00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:42.300 He has a companion who has stolen it artist from Gallifrey and is off to see the universe, who does all the doctorary things all the way back from flatline, all the way back from death in heaven. 544 00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:47.820 She's been like the doctor and she works, I think, for that reason. 545 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:54.059 But that regeneration isn't just a white man regenerating into a black woman. 546 00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:58.739 It's also a character, Ken Bones character. 547 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.940 It turns out, is his 10th regeneration. 548 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:03.539 He's number 11. 549 00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:10.619 He has always been a woman before that and now he's turned back into a woman. 550 00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:24.300 And so it turns out that sometimes people have a series of regenerations where they're the same sex, the same gender, but just one time it becomes they gender flip, and that's a thing that happens. 551 00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:26.280 He gets a gag out of it. 552 00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:28.739 You know, I don't know how you cope with all the ego. 553 00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.800 But after the gender flip, they turn into a person of colour. 554 00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:50.219 Well, so that's, yeah, I mean, you know, that's a kind of thing that is Moffat, making it canonically possible for all of the people who care about that sort of thing who don't realise that it's just whoever we're picking to be the doctor becomes the doctor and you can all shut up. 555 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.519 But yeah, you know, like he makes it canonical. 556 00:42:53.579 --> 00:42:54.239 It a big deal. 557 00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:58.019 She is so young in it. amazing. 558 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:03.059 I mean, how can you tell if she's young, but she's just so agelessly ethereally beautiful? 559 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:07.800 stunningly beautiful always, but I was just struck by how young she is. where we love her from. 560 00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:09.539 Mostly is years and years. 561 00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:10.559 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 562 00:43:10.619 --> 00:43:12.239 Yeah, she was magnificent in that. 563 00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.940 It did strike me as something different. 564 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.980 It did strike me very much as something different. 565 00:43:17.340 --> 00:43:19.139 Just with her presence. 566 00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:20.820 She's been so good. 567 00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:22.199 She was so cheerful. 568 00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:27.480 It was so lovely to see how kind of happy she was to be a woman again and it was sort of awesome. 569 00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:30.420 The extraction chamber. 570 00:43:30.539 --> 00:43:36.239 Always gets me thinking about, what if other doctors decided to, well, not decided to go there. 571 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.679 Like, we never went, gets back thinking of what... 572 00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:51.719 Imagine Adric meets Clara in a tale of the TARDIS, and Clara explains that the doctor went to great lengths, you know, waited a 1000000000 years and smashed through a wall. 573 00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:55.139 Taterina extracted new trampoline balance. 574 00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.539 Russell has already written this. 575 00:43:57.659 --> 00:43:59.820 It's like Adric. 576 00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:02.340 He didn't even like... 577 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:02.880 Yeah that's right. 578 00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:04.619 Adrick wouldn't want us to mourn. 579 00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:06.780 He'd want us to go to the Great Exhibition. 580 00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:10.440 The moment just before stylistic Dodo's brain turns to mush. 581 00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:14.219 It was space syphilis. 582 00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:14.940 Oh sorry. 583 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.940 I think that that's beautifully directed. 584 00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:21.179 And I think, you know, there's the sound. 585 00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.280 The doctor says that there's a sound. 586 00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:24.300 This is so moffty. 587 00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:26.219 This is he could do these things in his sleep. 588 00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:30.300 There's a sound that you've trained yourself not to hear, but it's the sound of your heartbeat. 589 00:44:30.300 --> 00:44:33.480 And the thing that sounds weird to you is that you can't hear it. 590 00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:40.559 And the way that's brought across in the direction is just that very high pitch ringing in your ears that you get in the extraction chamber. 591 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:43.739 And also the way the colours separate as well. 592 00:44:43.860 --> 00:44:46.920 It's like a TV effect. 593 00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:48.059 I love that. 594 00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:48.420 Yeah. 595 00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:49.440 The chroma split. 596 00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:50.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 597 00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:53.579 It's really good because it just reminds you that we're on TV. 598 00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:57.780 We're just going into a previous episode to bring Clara out. 599 00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:05.400 It's a slightly up-to-date CGI version of the effect and greatest show in the galaxy when the doctor is going through the tunnel to the gods. 600 00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:09.179 It's got that same kind of, as you say, Richard, where the chrome has been split away. 601 00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:10.679 It's really good. 602 00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:12.659 Good old Quantil. 603 00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.599 We miss it, don't we? 604 00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:16.320 We do. 605 00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:33.179 I think we can all agree that no matter what you think of this episode, it is better than Arc of Infinity. 606 00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:33.840 No, that is true. 607 00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:36.599 That's true, despite the presence of the time lords in it. 608 00:45:36.659 --> 00:45:37.559 It's funny. 609 00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:40.980 I'm actually really liking it more than what I came in too. 610 00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:42.659 It's a real-time Todd experience. 611 00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:44.579 Just one point more. 612 00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.920 I'll just bump it up from 8 to a nine. 613 00:45:46.980 --> 00:45:50.940 I think it is, like, I think it's properly clever, and I think the 2 of them are properly epic. 614 00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:06.780 I think that it absolutely epitomises the problems that we had with this season in that it's really introspective and it's all about our little small cast of characters that we've seen before and that we've known for a while. 615 00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:22.679 I guess knowing that it's Moffat thinking that he's on his way out, then it becomes a little bit more like journeys end where most of the characters are, you know, former regulars and stuff. 616 00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:29.159 And so it's forgivable, it's understandable, and it's done a little bit more deftly than it is, I think, probably in journey's end. 617 00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:33.900 But, you know, his right to not attempt it the following year, I think. 618 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.840 Which when we get to it is amazing. 619 00:46:36.900 --> 00:46:44.039 I do think it's one of those Mothat season enders, which always receive a bit of a backlash, not because they're not very good. 620 00:46:44.099 --> 00:46:48.780 Often they are very good, where it's just not quite what the audience was expecting. 621 00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:52.139 And so, yeah, people react against that. 622 00:46:52.199 --> 00:47:00.119 And we're challenged in the way that you're challenged when you read to put your phone away and to not listen to your loving, loving family. 623 00:47:00.179 --> 00:47:02.519 Can television achieve that? 624 00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:07.980 I would like to know, Todd, maybe, you know, were there any BAFTA nominations for last week's episode? 625 00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:10.440 Because it was really... 626 00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:15.239 I may be entirely wrong on this, but I think it might have been nominated for a Saturn award. 627 00:47:15.300 --> 00:47:16.320 Is that all? 628 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:18.179 God, not even a Hugo. 629 00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:21.119 I mean, it's so beautifully shot. 630 00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:27.420 It's, I wanted to talk about Albert Commuse's myth of Sisyphus, but I've fortunately the audience has been spared that. 631 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.599 We already talked we already talked about Dodo Sisyphus. 632 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.780 Well, that's all the time we have for this week. 633 00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:07.800 We'll be back next week to take one last longing look over the last 12 weeks in our Series 9 retrospective. 634 00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:09.300 Woo hoo. 635 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:12.360 I'm tired already. 636 00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:30.300 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us on our website, flight throughentirety.com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek Project. 637 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:34.619 Until next time, eat all the pairs you want. 638 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:35.639 Don't let him bully you. 639 00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:37.980 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 640 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:41.099 See you soon good night But they're squelchy. 641 00:48:45.059 --> 00:48:50.820 That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, and Richard Stone. 642 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:53.039 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 643 00:48:53.099 --> 00:49:01.500 This episode, the shooting gallery of retired British thespians, was recorded on the 12th of November 2023 and released on the 3rd of December. 644 00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:12.900 So, we've launched our new Doctor Who Flashcast, The Second Great and Bountiful Human Empire, where we record our half baked reactions to each new episode of Doctor Who just after it airs. 645 00:49:13.019 --> 00:49:17.760 The Starbeast is out already, and Wild Blue Yonder will be out in just a day or so. 646 00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:21.659 Check us out at the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.com. 647 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:28.079 Oh, I think Peter looks great in his... my favourite outfit. 648 00:49:28.139 --> 00:49:30.659 My favourite outfit is the long velvet coat. 649 00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:31.320 Yeah. 650 00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:35.880 A nod, both to... and Paul McCann. 651 00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:41.519 I love these kind of petrol blue coat from next season, the one that he wears in the Lie of Gland. 652 00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:42.360 Is it velvet? 653 00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:42.960 Amazing. 654 00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:44.460 Not the torn one. 655 00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:47.519 The one that looks like Tippy Hedron's pigeons that had a go on. 656 00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.679 Don't like that. 657 00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:51.000 It might be a bit to one, actually, yeah. 658 00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:54.300 Don't like that one, but do like, oh, no, it's just gorgeous. 659 00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:56.460 And he's so lean and raw. 660 00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:56.880 He is. 661 00:49:56.940 --> 00:49:58.500 David Bowie of Doctor Who. 662 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:00.300 He's amazing Only younger looking. 663 00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:01.500 But it's incredible. 664 00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:08.460 Like how in this episode he can be so emotional and yet Scottish. 665 00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:15.900 Yeah, but we've seen a lot of comedy moments throughout the season, he's very, very funny, but here there's less of that. 666 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:19.320 There's one or two. the odd line. 667 00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:24.000 When he explains the matrix to Clara and she says, so that didn't hurt, did it? 668 00:50:24.059 --> 00:50:25.019 He said a tiny bit. 669 00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:26.579 And I felt that too. 670 00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:27.420 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 671 00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:28.500 Because it all had that moment. 672 00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:30.900 Interestingly, have to go down to a physical matrix. 673 00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:32.099 Yeah, yeah. 674 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:32.699 Yes. 675 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.500 But it's a dream. 676 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:35.820 Of course. 677 00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:49.260 I wasn't sure if that wasn't a part of a dream within a dream or even if Gullifree itself exists in some article or some node or point of energy and doesn't have a physical reality anymore and it's all in a dream scape. 678 00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:51.059 The way the narrative folded around. 679 00:50:51.179 --> 00:50:54.900 It felt like, again, it felt like a bork is... 680 00:50:55.019 --> 00:50:59.099 I mean, are those cloisters meant to be the same kind of under galleries that we see in the deadly assassin? 681 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:01.139 Do you know my? 682 00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:02.400 Yes, and you know my favourite bit of that? 683 00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:08.219 They've almost got the same light tubes that they used to use on Buck Rogers as fuel lines. 684 00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:13.619 So the, all they use in Texas City Station on Journey to where in Space 1979? 685 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:15.780 Stairs in deleted scenes from Battlefield. 686 00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:16.619 Yes, that's it. 687 00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:18.059 Lop, lop, lop, lop. 688 00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:18.420 That it. 689 00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.119 Shame he didn't have the keeper of the Matrix. 690 00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:24.300 They could have recast him. would have had a field day with that. 691 00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:25.800 Who was it originally? 692 00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:27.300 James. 693 00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:28.260 Oh, no, we need that. 694 00:51:31.019 --> 00:51:31.500 You are.