WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:14:01

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flights or Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast made entirely of ghosts and edited and

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distributed by more ghosts.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Peter, and I'm Tanya Miller's agent excitedly tapping on my

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phone that obviously she's got the next role because here she is

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as Madame Maxwell.

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She's so posh, she's Tanya.

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Well, it took us one week to get here, but for the doctor, it's

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been 4.5000000 years.

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So I guess there's a right to be just a little bit cross.

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Still, he's always been universally recognised as a mature and

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responsible adult, and so the high council almost certainly have

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nothing at all to worry about.

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Let's see how it all goes down in hell bent.

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This was the biggest mystery of the entire season, because I've

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said over and over again, I didn't remember series 9 very well, and

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I had no idea what I thought of Hellbent at all.

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And while I've gone back and seen heaven sent a lot of times.

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I haven't gone back to this one.

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And so I've now watched it a few times in preparation for this, and

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I have to say, Todd, that I really liked it.

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Really, Nathan?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I'm not as enamoured.

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You think that it goes to pieces after last week?

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No, it goes to pieces.

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I think.

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Well, can I just be honest?

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I'm utterly exhausted.

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Yes.

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I'm utterly exhausted, everyone.

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Last time I was here, I was talking about the zygons.

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I find the 2nd part of that Saigon 2 parter quite harrowing and

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triggering, especially events at the beginning of the episode

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which just, with the plane exploding, I find that really tough.

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And then we go into sleep no more.

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And you have all that camera work, that handheld camera work, which

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you know, the older you get when you go to amusement parks and you

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go and rides to just go in the one circle and your equilibrium is

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gone for the day.

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That's how I feel with the 1st 20 minutes of that episode.

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And for the rest of the day, I feel quite sick because I'm walking

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around, sort of sleep no more gave you motion sickness.

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I mean, I don't mind the episode, but I'm saying, yeah, then face

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the raven.

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Well, let's be honest.

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By halfway through, you just sort of know where it's going and the

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last 10 minutes are just harrowing in the extreme, especially all

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the stuff with Clara.

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And then last week is utterly superb.

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But I'm just exhausted by the end of it.

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I'm just grateful that we're in a diner, we're in a barn and we're

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just staying put for a while.

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Yeah.

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I feel like you've been punching through a diamond wall for the

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last few episodes.

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Probably, but not to say some of this episodes are extraordinary.

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I think this is good.

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But we get to a point where Clara comes back into it and I feel

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like I've got a hangover again and we're going over stuff, but

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we'll talk about that.

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Good, but I don't think it's fantastic.

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So she has already left about 4 or 5 times at this and has died 3

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times.

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Storory model of companion.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so finally getting rid of her is actually a big task.

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We were going to say it was a blessing.

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I heard relief.

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Well, there'll be another year and then I'll be feeling a bit of

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relief, I think.

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I have to agree with you, Todd.

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This is the thing that we identified, particularly in the 1st 2

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parter, where all of the characters were people who had been in

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Doctor Who before and whom we had known for like a really long

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time.

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And the Moffat model is kind of the girl who weighted model where

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the important elements of the story happen to our regular

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characters rather than one off guest characters.

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And here, in this 2 parter, I think I counted 2 or 3 one off guest

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characters.

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Is that quite likeable?

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Shall we call him a chancellery guard?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, Garston or something?

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I can't remember his name, but he's very cool.

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There's the little...

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He's the Hill Red or the Andred.

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Yeah, he is.

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Yeah, only more attractive.

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And then we have the little boy who the doctor meets at the end of

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heaven's sent.

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Oh, we have the woman in the barn who has about 3 lines and then

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pokes her head in and doesn't have any lines for see.

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She's great. didn't mean her.

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She's a little bit too minor.

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I meant the guy who wakes the doctor up, the American guy in

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Nevada who says that Clara told me that you'd be confused or

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upset.

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Wouldn't have been amazing if that had been the guy from the

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Impossible Astronaut 2 parter.

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Canton.

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That would have been lovely.

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See, that old woman, I kind of think, is either Leila or...

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Or it's the woman, either that or it's the woman from the

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caretaker pilot episode of Voyager, who keeps offering people corn

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or something.

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Just come and have some pecan pie.

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Oh, whatever, corn on the cob.

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Well, I wanted it to be Erna Stubbs.

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I am going to say that it is a character who's been on the show

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before.

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I think it's the woman in listen who we overtalk hearing.

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I think it's Engen after a particularly good regeneration grow

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up.

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Yeah, could be too.

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Could be.

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The listen thing sounds right.

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Because you hear he's nursemaid.

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Yeah, talking about him joining the army and staff.

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On that point, can I say that I actually split my opinion of this

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episode between the 2 of you and it's because of this, longtime

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listeners and podcasters will know that I have a problem with the

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time lords and how they're depicted in modern Doctor Who.

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Because Time Lords are essentially boring.

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Yes.

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In the old series, before Bob Holmes came along, they are just

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Deus X Macina.

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Bob Holmes hits on a way of making them interesting by pulling

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back the cloak or going under the bonnet and seeing that there are

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actually a bunch of power players and doddering old men and I

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don't know whatever Runsable was.

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And it's a mystery to me why Russell and Stephen, who are great

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writers, do not return to that model to make Gallifrey and Time

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Lords interesting.

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So here, even though I like this episode, I think it's pretty good

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and pretty entertaining on its own merits, it feels like a missed

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opportunity because it should have been something interesting

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looking at time lord society and the way that the doctor interacts

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with them.

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It needed, in invasion of time, that Broussa and Andred, and Rodan

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and people like that.

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It needed those people, Castellan Kelner.

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Whereas we don't get anything like that.

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And so the time lords are boring.

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I think the time lords have always reflected what the media is

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showing the power play to be at the time.

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And Bob Holmes was, I would suggest at the time, looking at Robert

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Graves actually looking at Dame Derek Jacoby and Sir Sian Phillips

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in I Claudius.

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And there was a nice little nod to that, because just like the

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doctor is always somehow contemporaneous, so are the time lords

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whereas now, we've had all of the Blair thing, we've had all of

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the Gulf War business, and now we've got the falling apart of

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establishments, and there is a lot of toothiness, there's a lot of

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hawkishness in, and I'm talking about the British government.

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I mean, that's a perfectly valid model as well.

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Yeah, and the militarisation and weaponisation of politics is, I

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think, what we're seeing here and also that they like a bit of

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flash and bang because we have a large television market and this

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is what they like, just to be a bit obvious.

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But how has that not been made interesting?

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How are these characters not that interesting?

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You've got great people playing them.

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Ken Bones is fantastic and has the most fantastic name ever.

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Yeah.

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And obviously we will get to Dame Tanya Miller, but how were the

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characters not interesting?

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How are we not interested in the dynamics between these

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characters?

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How do they not have their own agendas?

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They're just there as dressing for the story of the doctor, which

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is kind of the story of Moffatt's Doctor Who.

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I mean, you've got Ohela and you've got, who is the most

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interesting character?

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And she's beautifully played, obviously.

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Well, she has to do with glower under a tea tail.

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Everyone shakes.

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I mean, she is actually the closest to one of those characters.

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So I was talking about in Stanford or 2 and that she comes in and

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she comments on what's going on rather than being a driving force

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in the scene.

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Yeah, the most BBC classics of everyone, yeah.

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Yes.

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I don't even mean that mockingly, if I was looking back at I

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Claudius, she's definitely doing the, the eye line to the side of

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the camera.

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You can imagine her and Castellan spandrel in the corner, sort of

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having a drink and commenting on what was going on.

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Hissing.

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What do you think about Donald Sumter?

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his triumphant return to Doctor Who as Rassalon.

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I think never marry for looks because he was so hot in the

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Wheeland space.

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Is that what he was in last?

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Yeah, he was in the C double as well, but he's really cute as

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Enrico Cassali in Wheeling Space. and we all prune up in the end.

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Yeah.

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I thought you were comparing him to Timothy Dalton. who apparently

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was asked back for this and wasn't available.

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Yeah.

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I mean, he's he was great.

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I did really like him.

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And I, I mean, I like that version of the Time Lords in that

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suddenly they're actually much worse than the dialects.

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They're the worst thing that the doctor has ever faced and it's

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what you were saying about Russell's relationship with Tony Blair

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you know, who's exciting when Tony Blair comes in and them there's

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the Iraq war.

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So he kills him, has him fall out of a cupboard.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Every year he kills. the Prime Minister of Great Britain.

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So here you have that model of the Time Lords.

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The time lords are evil because they've imprisoned the doctor.

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And then you have this sort of amazing thing where we get this

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shaggy dog story at the beginning where the doctor just sits there

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and eats soup until he manages to overthrow the entire Timelord

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government and he yeats Donald Sumter into the sun from the little

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top of the sort of Gallifrean city.

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I think that is incredible.

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I think that whole secret.

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I thought of Utah, when the attractive young head of the

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chancellery card, without the robes, says put down your weapons

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and accompany me to the Capitol, and he puts down the soup spoon

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that he's been trying to eat soup with.

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And, of course, Robot of Sherwood establishes that a spoon in the

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doctor's hand can be a deadly weapon.

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So Wester McCoy proof that.

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I think it's really interesting we're talking about the timewards

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because I was thinking about this earlier and Russell brought back

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Wrestleon.

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Yeah.

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And when all of the end of time happened and that all disappeared

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and then we had the day at the doctor, and Moffat concentrated on

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the 2nd city, Arcadia, which is where Ken Bones was.

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Is that, am I correct or not?

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I get the impression that they're actually in the same building

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that they are in the main city.

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Yeah, because I think Ken Bones in Day of the Doctor says

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something about Wrestleon sort of scheming upstairs.

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Like he may even use the word upstairs.

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But it's definitely happening at the same time but in different

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rooms, isn't it?

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Yes that's right.

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And I just kind of didn't really know what had happened to sort of

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wrestle on considering how out of control he was back in the end

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of time and with things sort of being rewritten by Stephen.

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I just kind of thought, well, has he redeemed himself and gotten

252
00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:27.899
rid of the Daleks and he's no longer in charge, you know?

253
00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.500
I didn't expect him to be suddenly back in a new incarnation.

254
00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:35.340
And then sort of been basically dethrown and said, get off my

255
00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:36.779
planet and that's the end of him.

256
00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.960
It's just interesting seeing how the timelines are dealt with

257
00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:40.200
here.

258
00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:44.580
I mean, obviously, having Ken Bones back is great with that bit of

259
00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:47.100
continuity and having Oheila in there as well.

260
00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:49.019
But they could be anybody.

261
00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.960
I mean, he talks about getting rid of the high council, who we

262
00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:52.919
really don't see much of it.

263
00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:53.940
They're just nameless people.

264
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.559
It's just like both Russell and Stephen don't really want to deal

265
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:02.639
with anybody else other than perhaps the big name wrestle on and

266
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.820
everybody else is just, it's a problem with the time lords.

267
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:06.899
That's where I'm trying to go with it.

268
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.360
It's like you've hit your diamond wall again where you're not

269
00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.700
really following the story of the time lords.

270
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:15.539
I don't think Moffatt's interested in the time lords any more than

271
00:13:15.539 --> 00:13:17.220
he's interested in the Daleks.

272
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:18.240
You shouldn't use them.

273
00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:22.200
Well, but I think what he's using is that kind of weird

274
00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.799
iconography of the time lords, you know, making the time lords

275
00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:31.019
weird and mystical in a way that Russell sort of gestures at

276
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:34.320
whenever he describes the time war, it's something that you can't

277
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:34.919
picture.

278
00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:38.399
He uses strange language to describe what's going on and stuff.

279
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:39.539
It's very odd.

280
00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:45.179
Here we have the Matrix being a computer made out of ghosts, you

281
00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:49.139
know, and the just everything sort of at the bottom of the city is

282
00:13:49.139 --> 00:13:52.559
kind of weird and eldritch and mythical.

283
00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:53.879
Like the underclass.

284
00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:54.720
Yeah, yeah.

285
00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.539
I mean, isn't this what I was saying on the end of time?

286
00:13:57.539 --> 00:14:00.240
Where if you're going to use the time lord?

287
00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:01.259
you have to make them interesting.

288
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.720
What Russell said when he came back is we don't want people in

289
00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.100
robes thespian at each other.

290
00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:08.220
And that's exactly what the time lords are. in every Russell story

291
00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:10.620
and every Moffat story where they appeared. to the sliders.

292
00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:13.919
The shifting gallery of retired British thespians.

293
00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:16.919
I really wanted it.

294
00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:20.460
I really wanted Capaldi to take a pot shot at one of those.

295
00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:23.159
Or like Clara to play frogger between...

296
00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:26.759
I also wanted Clara to marry that chancellory guard at the end.

297
00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:28.500
Yeah, that's awesome.

298
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:28.980
Wow.

299
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:30.960
I've decided to stay here, doctor.

300
00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:36.720
I like the fact that we're at the barn and everything's coming

301
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.600
back to the barn and we just snowed things down a bit and you get

302
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.379
some beautiful shots like from outside of the landscape and all

303
00:14:43.379 --> 00:14:43.559
that.

304
00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:45.179
And I like that 1st 20 minutes.

305
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:49.200
I mean, yes, it's maybe it is perfunctory in terms of dealing with

306
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:53.460
the time wards, but we have finally found Gallifrey, and it

307
00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:58.320
appears that the confession dials are all that you need in order

308
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.559
to get back to your home planet, like this is another confusing

309
00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.559
thing for me, like this is mentioned early on, like it's the last

310
00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.559
will and testament, but then we get zapped into the last will and

311
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:12.179
testament via a teleport and then we're in there and we just have

312
00:15:12.179 --> 00:15:15.360
to let ourselves out of it and we're suddenly home. like we've

313
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:16.440
been searching for Gallifrey.

314
00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:18.240
Am I totally confused or not?

315
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.080
teleported in?

316
00:15:19.139 --> 00:15:20.039
Can you be teleported out?

317
00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:23.759
But why have like Stephen set up this last will and testament, but

318
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:24.659
then it's not really that?

319
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.600
Can every time, Lord, wherever they are, just do this, then get

320
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:27.779
home?

321
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:28.740
Do you know what I mean?

322
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:29.940
Like, I'm just confused.

323
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:30.899
I'm sorry.

324
00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:33.179
For heaven sent to work.

325
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.139
The doctor needs to be able to tell how much time has passed just

326
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:38.159
by looking at the stars.

327
00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:42.899
And so it says that the teleport that's brought him to the

328
00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:48.600
mysterious Clockwork Castle hasn't transported him in time and has

329
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.879
only taken him less than a light year away.

330
00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:54.419
And that's just so that we can have those scenes where the doctor

331
00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:58.080
says nearly a 1000000000 years, more than a 1000000000 years, you

332
00:15:58.080 --> 00:15:58.799
know, and so on.

333
00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:06.539
But that doesn't explain how on the other end of the Asbantium

334
00:16:06.539 --> 00:16:12.059
wall is Galifray, and he's not going to explain that, there is an

335
00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:17.100
explanation for what confession dials are, like they're to give

336
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:20.460
time lords an opportunity to think through their lives and make

337
00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:24.360
their peace with themselves before they die.

338
00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:29.039
But I think that he's, yeah, I think.

339
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.159
I thought it was the conscious appendices of the Matrix.

340
00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:36.480
I thought that it was in a way an a physical addendum or a key.

341
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:38.820
I mean, look, you know, it's Stephen Moffatt, so it can be

342
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:43.200
whatever you want. he's he does play fast and loose with us, I

343
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.379
would say, he's children of time, does.

344
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:48.600
And I'm really with Todd on this one too.

345
00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:50.519
I'm not sure where Peter is or you are.

346
00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:54.299
I love that I have to think, but I also like to have a result to

347
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:54.840
that thinking.

348
00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:58.799
I like to be able to see that I have solved a puzzle rather than

349
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:02.759
just fallen into a swamp of sticky, icy, whatever this is.

350
00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:04.980
You always want to think that you've cracked the code.

351
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.680
They don't want the writer to have been like, it can be whatever

352
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:08.099
you want.

353
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:08.880
I don't want that.

354
00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:12.480
I do want the clues Moffat normally does do that, but that is

355
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.220
something that he has left unanswered.

356
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.140
How did we get to gala phrase for me?

357
00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.420
coming from. what I'm getting from what Todd's saying.

358
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:19.920
Yes, that's what I'm saying.

359
00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:25.200
Like, you know, you're left up to yourself to sort of come to a

360
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.380
conclusion that you're satisfied with, but sometimes I do want

361
00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:33.059
more concrete answers than what is given there. which is not to

362
00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:36.660
say that it's a bad thing, but it's, you know, something for me

363
00:17:36.660 --> 00:17:42.059
that's, that just sits with me going, well, yeah, okay, but we've

364
00:17:42.059 --> 00:17:44.400
also got other, you know, who's the hybrid?

365
00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:48.960
Is it, is it half human, half Galifrain, a nod to the TV movie?

366
00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:50.400
Is it 2 people?

367
00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.319
Is it half mire, half human?

368
00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:53.579
What is it?

369
00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:54.119
You know?

370
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.240
And so again, you don't get, I don't think, a clear answer on

371
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:57.480
that.

372
00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:00.000
No, I think we'll get to that.

373
00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:02.940
I think we will get to that because I think it is super

374
00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:06.420
interesting, and that final line, which I always forget the final

375
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:10.619
line of heaven sent, where it says, the hybrid is me.

376
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:15.180
Um, and...

377
00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:19.799
And everyone's waiting for Grace 1999. to run in in a ballground.

378
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.019
And this story where he heads off into the TARDIS, that beautiful

379
00:18:22.019 --> 00:18:23.220
TARDIS.

380
00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:24.839
Oh my god.

381
00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:27.059
My favourite of the reboot.

382
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:28.019
It looks amazing.

383
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:29.519
And the novels.

384
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.720
At the end of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the

385
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.779
the, the, the, Yes.

386
00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:39.299
Did you have a Debbie Wattling moment?

387
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:40.559
Look at all these knobs.

388
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.759
No, Todd was walking along saying, who was that terrible woman?

389
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.859
What you're saying is it's part of the cumulative effect of not

390
00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:55.380
quite following along with storage season being bombarded with

391
00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:55.619
things.

392
00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.740
The fact that we don't get answers to this is maybe just one step

393
00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:01.559
too far, where at the end you slightly throw up your hands and say

394
00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:02.519
I needed more than that.

395
00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:04.380
You know where he's going with this, don't you?

396
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:08.940
Stephen Moffat is a literary science fiction fan and he reads a

397
00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:09.240
lot.

398
00:19:09.299 --> 00:19:13.740
Now, in the last around the 5 to 10 years around this story, which

399
00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:15.420
is now, what, 11, 12 years ago.

400
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.400
The con...

401
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:20.160
We've talked about, I know, we've talked about this before with

402
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:24.539
Spanish or the Latin style of magic realism in writing.

403
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.019
Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the, you know, the Nobel Prize winner

404
00:19:28.019 --> 00:19:30.359
Jorge Louis Borges, who pick of the week.

405
00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:34.859
The thing of a concept within a concept, within a concept and

406
00:19:34.859 --> 00:19:36.599
you're left to solve it, basically.

407
00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.420
But it's a whole style of speculative fiction.

408
00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:44.220
China Mabel does it, you know, in the city and the city throws a

409
00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:44.579
lot of those.

410
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.200
It's very much the now of this period, way of writing SF.

411
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.500
And he's challenging us and saying, especially this thing with a

412
00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:53.400
hybrid as well.

413
00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:55.740
What do you feel it is, dear reader?

414
00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:02.099
I think as well that Moffatt's instinct isn't just to give you bad

415
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:04.799
answers because he doesn't think that they're satisfying.

416
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:05.519
Yes.

417
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:09.359
See, you know, the beginning of Sherlock, the final series of

418
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:12.660
Sherlock, where what we get is various reenactments of

419
00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:16.740
possibilities about how Sherlock could have survived, you know

420
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:17.819
plummeting off the thing.

421
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:19.980
British detective writing.

422
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:21.839
I mean, a lot of them do it, yeah.

423
00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:27.660
I think that we land pretty on it's the doctor and Clara.

424
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:30.480
I tend to think that me is getting it right.

425
00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:34.380
No, I agree with you, like because she talks about Missy putting

426
00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:34.799
them together.

427
00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:35.460
Yeah.

428
00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:40.440
And the hybrid is both of them as opposed to my human, dalek, time

429
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.839
Lord, time Lord, half human, like any of those combinations.

430
00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:45.299
But it's interesting that at the beginning of the episode, the

431
00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:49.140
president wants to know the answer to what is the hybrid.

432
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.359
And the 1st time we've heard about the hybrid is the beginning of

433
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.500
this season because it's suddenly an old time lord myth or

434
00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:56.160
something like that.

435
00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:59.640
So it's all just introduced in this season to be solved in this

436
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:00.000
season.

437
00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:03.420
It's like saying, well, you're the timeless child.

438
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:04.079
Yeah.

439
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:08.160
I think he's taking the piss out of Paul McGain's one and only

440
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:08.880
trip in the dark.

441
00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:09.779
Oh, definitely.

442
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.480
There is that moment where you're supposed to think that he's half

443
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:12.900
human.

444
00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:16.799
Doesn't me say to him, how come you spend so much time on earth?

445
00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:20.700
It's cheaper there, dear. are already built.

446
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:24.180
It's the kind of thing that Ross used to talk about in interviews

447
00:21:24.180 --> 00:21:27.000
where his starting point for something would be that he and Phil

448
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:28.440
Collinson had a fan discussion.

449
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.619
We were hooting and then he'd just like go off on a tangent like

450
00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:38.880
that. gorgeous So the hybrid thing, I think, is deliberately given

451
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:44.579
lots of possible meanings, but I do think it resolves into Clara

452
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:47.700
and the doctor, which is why we have to go to such incredible

453
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:51.480
lengths to break them up, why they need to be stopped.

454
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.119
Just for the audience's sake.

455
00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:58.559
Which is why me has called me just to add some fun to that.

456
00:21:58.619 --> 00:21:59.579
Yeah, yeah.

457
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:00.059
Yeah.

458
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:02.339
She is incredibly good in this episode, I think.

459
00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:03.599
She is much in this episode.

460
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:06.900
I didn't think she was good in the woman who lived, but I think

461
00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:07.619
she is good here.

462
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.200
She is, and I love her Priscilla Presley hair.

463
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:11.940
Yeah, it's bad, isn't it?

464
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:12.779
exactly what it is.

465
00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:16.680
I've been thinking about that because I was going, what hair is

466
00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:16.859
it?

467
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.859
And I kept thinking it's Danny Minogue from Home and Away when she

468
00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:22.380
played Amen, and then I realised, no, that's styled, that's

469
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:24.420
actually styled on Priscilla Presley's hair.

470
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:26.220
Like, so that's fair, yeah.

471
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:26.759
Wow.

472
00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:29.099
Sorry, it's all about the hair.

473
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:29.700
Have you got it?

474
00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:30.599
Power behind the throne.

475
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.119
But no, she's great here and it's great that, you know, she's...

476
00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.019
Yes, I know.

477
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.400
But the character's tying up so much to do with the missy plot, all

478
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:42.119
these conclusions.

479
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:45.480
Stephen is concluding we've found Gallifrey.

480
00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:48.900
Clara's going, me's done.

481
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.839
Missy's sort of done in terms of her plot.

482
00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:53.039
Everything is being tied up.

483
00:22:53.099 --> 00:22:55.740
You almost get a sense of like he's ready to leave.

484
00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:57.660
Like, oh, yes, absolutely.

485
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:01.259
In next in the Christmas special, we're tying up the final loose

486
00:23:01.259 --> 00:23:04.319
end of River Song and then he's going to head over to somebody

487
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:04.619
new.

488
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:05.400
I just get that feeling.

489
00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:06.660
Oh, absolutely that.

490
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.759
Was that ever part of the scheme?

491
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:10.319
Oh, that was the...

492
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:11.099
I did not know this.

493
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.220
And so heaven sent is him saying, here's what I can do.

494
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:19.619
And he sets himself a goal of writing a thing with Jessica Poldi

495
00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:24.660
as the only actor and with no timey whiminess.

496
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:28.259
Everything that happens in heaven sent happens in chronological

497
00:23:28.259 --> 00:23:29.339
order.

498
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.839
Gorgeous organic plotting.

499
00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:33.000
Have we ever had, well, not since deadly assassin?

500
00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:35.880
So I think Blink is like this, but it's sort of slightly

501
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:36.180
different.

502
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.059
I think Russell's closest analogue would be midnight.

503
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.779
You know, again, because it has formal constraints, it's all set

504
00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:45.059
in one room with a small group of characters.

505
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.940
So he's setting himself a task there.

506
00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:49.740
And Moffins...

507
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:54.000
So Moffatt is doing this, I think, to show on the way out what

508
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:58.019
he's capable of doing, and what Rachel Talalay is capable of doing

509
00:23:58.019 --> 00:23:59.160
what Murray can do.

510
00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:01.680
Also, what have I got left that I haven't done so much?

511
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:02.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

512
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:03.240
Last hurrah.

513
00:24:03.299 --> 00:24:05.519
I mean, Rachel is amazing.

514
00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:06.900
This is cinematic.

515
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.039
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

516
00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:09.539
But going back to what you're saying also, Nathan.

517
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:12.660
Like he's also with the whole cloisters thing, we suddenly get

518
00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:15.420
flashes of a Dalek cyberman.

519
00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.240
Yeah, weeping angels, yes. all of his...

520
00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:21.359
It's greatest kids.

521
00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:24.599
There should have been a Varden in there if it's people invading

522
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:25.259
Gallifrey.

523
00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:26.220
That would have been amazing.

524
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:28.259
Maybe the Scottish Martin.

525
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:32.640
But why not?

526
00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:38.579
So, you know, this is huge.

527
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.279
This is what he's trying to do and he expects not to come back.

528
00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:45.359
Chibnell's not ready, and so he agrees in order to keep the show

529
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:45.960
going.

530
00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:47.700
He agrees to do a 10th series.

531
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.279
But he's exhausted.

532
00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:54.539
One of the things, I can't remember whether I said this last week

533
00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:59.880
but El Sandafar thinks that we should think something fairly

534
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:04.380
obvious about a story where a grey-haired Scotsman keeps doing the

535
00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:08.519
same thing over and over and over again for years and years and

536
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.039
years until he wishes he was dead, you know?

537
00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:14.460
Finally breaks through.

538
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:18.180
That's right And so it's also Moffat too.

539
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.960
You know, he's definitely his farewell run at the show.

540
00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:26.400
And I do think that the 2 episodes together are exhausting, but

541
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.380
they're also properly epic, I think.

542
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.920
Part of me wishes that, I mean, I know it doesn't work in story

543
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:35.400
terms, that like the Pandoraca opens in the Big Bang.

544
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:38.039
It had been the other way round where you'd had the big flashy

545
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:41.460
Gallifrey stuff 1st and then the confession dial stuff where you

546
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:44.640
just bring the focus all the way down to just the doctor at the

547
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:46.200
end would have been quite nice.

548
00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:49.079
I know it doesn't work for the story's telling, but yeah, you'd

549
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:49.740
have to tell a different story.

550
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:50.579
Yeah, yeah.

551
00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:50.940
Yeah.

552
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.779
Can we talk a little bit about the framing device?

553
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:18.539
So, we're in Nevada. and the doctor turns up at the same cafe that

554
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:22.380
he was in in the Impossible Astronaut, although it's on the other

555
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:28.140
side of the road now, and Clara is there, and he's playing Clara's

556
00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:32.339
theme, that beautiful theme, you know, on the on the electric

557
00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:39.059
guitar, and it's the usual Moffatt thing with those kinds of

558
00:26:39.059 --> 00:26:44.220
framing devices, where at the halfway point we discover something

559
00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:48.720
about how that narrative works, which we didn't know before that

560
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:53.400
changes the entire thing, or it doesn't happen here, but it has

561
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:57.599
happened earlier in the season in sleep no more, which is gators

562
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:03.599
where the framing device, the story interferes with itself.

563
00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:07.619
So the way the story is being told actually affects the story

564
00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:08.339
itself.

565
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:12.180
So we have Erasmus and in another room, creating this episode

566
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:15.599
while events in the episode are going on.

567
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:23.039
Here, I think that when we hear that the doctor plans to wipe

568
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:32.039
Clara's memory, we realise, I think that, like, Clara can't

569
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:33.599
recognise the doctor, right?

570
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:37.500
And I think that we're supposed to think that Clara has lost her

571
00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:40.859
memory of the doctor and that the doctor has come to visit her to

572
00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:41.519
say goodbye.

573
00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:44.579
And we're primed to think that because it's happened in Doctor Who

574
00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:44.819
before.

575
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.480
Yeah.

576
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:45.960
Yeah.

577
00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:46.500
Yeah.

578
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:51.299
And then we discover at the end, know that it's the doctor who

579
00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:55.680
can't recognise Clara and because she reversed the Polaris.

580
00:27:55.740 --> 00:27:58.619
Yeah, because she reversed the polarity and he's lost his memory

581
00:27:58.619 --> 00:27:59.339
of her.

582
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:05.640
And then we reinterpret that entire diner as the TARDIS that we

583
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:06.539
escaped in.

584
00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:10.859
And presumably, because it was on the other side of the road in

585
00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:14.940
the impossible astronaut, it was Clara's TARDIS in the impossible

586
00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:16.140
astronaut the whole time.

587
00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:17.519
All the time.

588
00:28:17.579 --> 00:28:20.160
You've just blown my mind.

589
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:24.480
Because I'm just struggling to keep up with you with all of this.

590
00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:27.960
So we have the whole framing device of the diner.

591
00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:28.619
Yep.

592
00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:35.220
Up until when he goes in to get her out of the face the raven.

593
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.259
Does it stop then and just come back at the end?

594
00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:38.160
or am I wrong?

595
00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:40.559
No, no, it does happen quite a bit.

596
00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:45.299
Remember, there's the bit where she says, do all of them turn up

597
00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:48.839
with guns or something and she says, wow, you really do love a

598
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:52.559
cliffhanger to him, like she interrupts, she interrupts it.

599
00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:54.480
You're a bit aracaneta, right?

600
00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:56.160
They are really great.

601
00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:59.460
And in fact, I think that they affect the way the story is being

602
00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:04.859
told at the beginning because it's a little bit too much that they

603
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:08.819
look like the Wild West, you know, all of the, are they Shaboogans

604
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:09.180
who cares?

605
00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:12.000
They are whatever they are, but the people on Gallifrey all look

606
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.380
like they're from the, you know, Wild West in the...

607
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:17.579
Oh, I noticed him.

608
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:17.819
Yeah.

609
00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:23.880
But because the story is a shaggy dog story that the doctor's

610
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:24.299
telling.

611
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:27.900
He's telling the story about how he turned up on Gallifrey and

612
00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:30.599
they just kept sending people and he kept refusing to speak to

613
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:35.759
them until finally he manages without saying anything to force

614
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:38.279
Donald Sumter to get off his planet.

615
00:29:38.339 --> 00:29:41.700
How I wish it hadn't been Donald Sumter if he just had wrestle on

616
00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:43.859
from the 5 doctors in the sky.

617
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:45.660
The Wizard of Oz.

618
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:46.380
I know.

619
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.279
So all of that stuff is great.

620
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.240
The, the, the way the framing story affects how we see the story.

621
00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:55.559
We're never seeing the story.

622
00:29:55.619 --> 00:29:58.559
We're hearing Capoldi's version of the story.

623
00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:00.779
Okay.

624
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:06.180
Sorry, I'm just, I'm just totally, and that is magic confused at

625
00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:06.900
this point in time.

626
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:10.140
Because does that stop around the extraction chamber time and then

627
00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:12.000
just come back into play at the end or not?

628
00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:13.920
No, no, it keeps going all the way through.

629
00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:15.359
It does keep going all the way through.

630
00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:20.039
But there's a point where we realise that he's lost his memory.

631
00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:21.960
That he's the one who's lost his memory.

632
00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:22.980
Because we're quite late on.

633
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.039
Because when he's in the extraction chamber, he asks for something

634
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:27.779
to wipe a human's memory, doesn't it?

635
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:29.039
So Clara.

636
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:31.859
And we go, ah, that's why Clara can't remember him.

637
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:33.960
But Clara versus the polarity later on.

638
00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:37.319
It's kind of funny because like in the previous season when she

639
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:40.859
went to get all of those keys, you think he had the memory patch

640
00:30:40.859 --> 00:30:45.299
you know, something and so sort of reversed a bit, like she gets

641
00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:48.240
the upper hand as opposed to him getting an upper hand in that

642
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:48.480
case.

643
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:52.200
We get to that point we're suddenly getting the extraction chamber

644
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.240
and he goes and gets her out of face the raven.

645
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:58.920
And it's at that point that I begin to go, oh, no, we're going

646
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.319
over all of this dialogue again.

647
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:05.400
And I'm sort of like really quite exhausted from the 1st time

648
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.039
round. you know, we have to have these conversations.

649
00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:10.200
And not to say that they are brilliant.

650
00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:13.259
I mean, there's some wonderful stuff down in the cloisters with

651
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:17.339
her and him and she's got tears in her eyes and stuff like that

652
00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:21.779
and and just the whole when she's talking to the time lords and

653
00:31:21.779 --> 00:31:22.920
it's all just a ruse.

654
00:31:23.099 --> 00:31:25.500
That's so good.

655
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:27.480
Like they're such good, but there's also this...

656
00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:28.500
What did you whisper to him?

657
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:29.400
They'll be looking at me.

658
00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:30.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

659
00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:32.759
It just, I can tell you just one of the things that he said, don't

660
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:33.180
worry.

661
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:35.400
But also they'll be looking at me.

662
00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:36.359
Yeah.

663
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:38.039
As in me.

664
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:42.059
But, you know, then you're going into the heart and esque tanas

665
00:31:42.059 --> 00:31:45.240
which is just phenomenal, but they keep on having, you know, is

666
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.680
her heart beat back and all that, just, I just find it. not saying

667
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:50.279
it's not good.

668
00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:51.539
I think it is good.

669
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.299
I found those things a little bit heartbreaking, actually, where

670
00:31:54.299 --> 00:31:57.059
they keep referring to my heartbeat's not back and you just get

671
00:31:57.059 --> 00:31:58.619
this sense of this ominous sense.

672
00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:00.180
It's not going to work out.

673
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:02.460
It really is a crash, isn't it?

674
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.900
It really is a moment, a beat in the drama in the drum when you

675
00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:11.039
just feel that, ah, this is not the day of sex mechanism.

676
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:11.640
Yeah, yeah.

677
00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:13.440
She is not redeemed and saved.

678
00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:16.019
This is merely a pause and it's very poignant.

679
00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:20.759
For me, I think it's the same for Todd, maybe, but this is much

680
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.940
darker and sadder than I remembered this episode being at the time

681
00:32:23.940 --> 00:32:26.519
because at the time I was so overwhelmed with all the goings on.

682
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:27.599
Yeah, yeah.

683
00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:31.740
But I shared with Todd I was also exhausted But I think I think

684
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:33.900
dealing with all these other questions at the same time.

685
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:35.880
I've struggled a bit with his episode.

686
00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:40.680
There's moments where I don't remember, like, obviously, as well

687
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:42.839
because I'm still trying to process everything else.

688
00:32:42.900 --> 00:32:46.920
But I still come back to that moment where she's got tears in her

689
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:49.079
eyes and she asks him why.

690
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:51.839
And he said, I had a duty of care and just the inflections in his

691
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:53.460
voice at that point.

692
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:58.440
And just, I mean, Peter Capaldi is just phenomenal.

693
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.900
And Jenna Calman, and I just think are just a phenomenal threat

694
00:33:00.900 --> 00:33:01.140
this.

695
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:06.599
Moffatt describes that scene as the best scene in heaven sent

696
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:12.660
because what it does is it gets us to go back and reevaluate what

697
00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:13.740
the doctor was doing.

698
00:33:13.799 --> 00:33:20.700
And the doctor says that he knew all along where he was and what

699
00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:25.980
was going on, and that he deliberately waited 4.5000000 years.

700
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:30.480
He went the long way round in order to end up in Galafray so he

701
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.720
could get to the extraction chamber and so that he could get her

702
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:34.019
back.

703
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.839
And so all of that's done for her benefit.

704
00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:41.039
And just her response to that is so amazing.

705
00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:45.059
Doesn't she just say something like, like get over it?

706
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.700
You know, like everyone loses people. everyone loses people.

707
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:55.259
She is uniquely qualified to talk about that in the recent

708
00:33:55.259 --> 00:33:55.680
seasons.

709
00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:56.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

710
00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:57.359
That's right.

711
00:33:57.420 --> 00:34:00.420
She herself underwent this sort of incredible loss.

712
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.940
And he just can't get over it.

713
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.079
And he does this thing, this huge operatic thing that we found so

714
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:11.880
moving and impressive last week and it just turns out to be some

715
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.840
dumb grandiose man pain thing that he did.

716
00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:21.599
And she's horrified at the lengths that he went to and how he

717
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:26.099
abased and harmed himself so much just to get her back.

718
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:31.019
We do leave her behind with one heartbeat left.

719
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:35.820
We leave her behind with Maisie Williams, but in a way, everyone

720
00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:40.739
that the doctor leaves behind will then grow old and die.

721
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:42.480
It happens to literally everyone.

722
00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:44.940
We all have to face the raven.

723
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.519
Stay tuned for Tales of the TARDS.

724
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:57.000
Oh, doctor, I've missed you so much. heaps of them are dead

725
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:57.300
though.

726
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.760
But on screen, then not.

727
00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:06.480
So I think that scene is incredible and I agree with you, Todd.

728
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.239
I think both of them do an incredible job of it.

729
00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:10.440
It's really quite amazing.

730
00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:12.539
There's just so many moments.

731
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:15.659
Like, you know, when she says that he's stealing a TARDIS and

732
00:35:15.659 --> 00:35:20.699
running away and but her at the end, like saying to me, you know

733
00:35:20.699 --> 00:35:22.980
she's going the long way round.

734
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.000
Yeah, you know.

735
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:28.199
I do then think about things like, you know, her school and her

736
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:29.460
family back on earth.

737
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:31.800
Will they ever see her again on Maretta?

738
00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:32.940
Well, no, I do.

739
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.639
I do think like she could actually keep popping in and saying

740
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:37.739
she's travelling and that sort of thing until her grandmother

741
00:35:37.739 --> 00:35:41.340
passes away rather than the horrible Perry situation where one day

742
00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:44.099
she's on a boat and then she's a missing person, you know?

743
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.579
So that sort of plays into my mind a little bit.

744
00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:51.420
Like, you know, we're never going to see me and Clara again, even

745
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:55.139
though they're out there in their flying cafe, you know.

746
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.719
The flying big finish box set.

747
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.539
I mean, there's that...

748
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:05.099
That final shot where the police box goes in one direction and the

749
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:06.659
diner goes in the other direction.

750
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:09.059
The attraction, ridiculousness of Doctor Who. amazing.

751
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.079
But it's also, so I guess we have to follow the police box then.

752
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.480
Well, I'll do that anyway.

753
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:17.579
But do you know what I mean?

754
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.099
It's like, it is, like, she's him.

755
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:25.320
The whole thing, she has been being punished for being him, but

756
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:26.820
her reward is she gets to be him.

757
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:30.119
Oh, that we'd had a little bit of dialogue saying that she wasn't

758
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:31.019
me's companion.

759
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:32.099
Me was her compat.

760
00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:33.840
Oh, I definitely think that's the case though.

761
00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:35.039
That's how it seems to be.

762
00:36:35.099 --> 00:36:37.320
Yeah, she's operating the TARDIS.

763
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:38.639
I mean she knows what she's doing.

764
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:40.320
She steals a TARDIS.

765
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:42.780
She's a complex space-time event.

766
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:46.739
She goes off to explore the universe.

767
00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:47.880
There's an end.

768
00:36:48.059 --> 00:36:51.900
There will be an end, but, you know, the doctor has an end as well

769
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:52.320
everyone does.

770
00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:55.860
Now, I love the fact that she says, go afraid they're on a long

771
00:36:55.860 --> 00:36:56.280
way round.

772
00:36:56.280 --> 00:37:00.719
But then also then, those concluding moments where, you know, in

773
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.019
earlier in the episodes, she's talking about his coat and she

774
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:05.340
liked the velvet one.

775
00:37:05.340 --> 00:37:08.340
And then he goes back into the TARDIS.

776
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.820
And that, just those phenomenal moments with the lights going off

777
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:15.960
and, you know, run you clever boy on the chalkboard and the new

778
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:19.559
Sonic and his coat and all that, just you just feel like a

779
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:21.960
weight's been lifted and we're ready to start.

780
00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:24.719
Yeah, I hate to say it because I've railed against this kind of

781
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:28.079
thing before, but maybe we don't need the definitive answers that

782
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.079
we were seeking because there's such an emotional payoff season.

783
00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:34.619
Yeah, and emotions don't give you straight linear answers.

784
00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:38.099
And life doesn't give us linear directions either.

785
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:40.139
I'm getting where you're wanting to go with this.

786
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:42.480
I mean, the long way around.

787
00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:45.539
Yeah, yeah, you know, just like this podcast.

788
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:45.960
Thank you.

789
00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:47.639
No, this season, the long way round.

790
00:37:47.699 --> 00:37:48.840
I think, Todd, you got it.

791
00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:53.579
Todd's conversation, this episode has allowed me to come to this

792
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:56.280
point realising where we, that our expectations.

793
00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:58.739
We're not going to be fulfilled, but we got something maybe more

794
00:37:58.739 --> 00:37:59.099
interesting.

795
00:37:59.219 --> 00:38:01.139
We followed you through it to the realisation.

796
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:04.500
This season's never.

797
00:38:04.619 --> 00:38:08.699
People don't sort of go and rave about it or talk about it as much

798
00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:10.559
as others that I don't even want to face the raving.

799
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:14.219
The gift door, the title.

800
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:17.940
But that's the nature of this season, I think, you know, and I

801
00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:20.579
think it's something that you just can't revisit, like, pop into

802
00:38:20.579 --> 00:38:21.059
episodes.

803
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:24.360
You've got to really encompass the whole thing, which is an

804
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:25.619
experience, you know?

805
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:28.559
Look, I mean, it's heavy and it's hard going.

806
00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:32.880
And last night I watched episodes 11 and 12, one after the other

807
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:35.760
and I was a bit exhausted by it.

808
00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:38.340
And you do kind of wonder what it had to offer to the general

809
00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:38.699
public?

810
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:40.380
Yeah, yeah. was thinking that too.

811
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:41.219
What were the ratings?

812
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.420
Not great.

813
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:43.559
I can't imagine.

814
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.719
It would be very hard to follow if you, even if as a fan.

815
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.559
I mean, I found myself kind of wanting the adipose back, really, at

816
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:53.639
some point. because that's the Doctor Who that I really love.

817
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:59.280
I'm glad the Doctor Who can do this and I'm glad that when a very

818
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:04.739
talented writer gets hold of it, he does something brilliant and

819
00:39:04.739 --> 00:39:10.500
epic and weird with it and emotional and kind of harrowing.

820
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:13.139
But I don't want Doctor Who to be like this all the time.

821
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.599
It got over 6 million, like 6 million.

822
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:15.780
Okay.

823
00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:19.860
Which is like in terms of the season context, like that's, you

824
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:25.980
know, it's holding between mid-highs to low sixes and it got an

825
00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:28.260
audience appreciation of 82, right?

826
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.400
Which is not bad.

827
00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:32.579
Aliens of London level. which is more than last week, which only

828
00:39:32.579 --> 00:39:33.480
got an AI of 80.

829
00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:35.280
But what do the general public know?

830
00:39:35.340 --> 00:39:37.500
But the statistical noise.

831
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:38.519
Yeah.

832
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:42.539
But the audience, the percentage audience is like the mid-20s, like

833
00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:46.440
25, 26%, whereas, and I've talked about this before, we've been

834
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:49.920
eroding that away slowly, but surely, like, you know, for some

835
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:52.380
time from the low 30s.

836
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:53.039
So, yeah.

837
00:39:53.099 --> 00:39:57.119
I mean, I think it probably goes back to the way that the time

838
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:01.920
lords are presented, maybe the general public is viewing Doctor

839
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:05.760
Who now through that same prism of when you tune into Doctor Who

840
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:08.699
you get people in rogues thesping at each other because you

841
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:11.760
actually do get that in the story for all of its cleverness and

842
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:13.380
all of its emotional wallop.

843
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:16.739
And it's incomprehensible outside of its context.

844
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.760
And maybe that's okay for the season finale, but I think if you

845
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:22.679
tuned into doomsday.

846
00:40:22.739 --> 00:40:26.639
You would have a pretty clear idea what was going on, even if you

847
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:27.900
hadn't seen the previous episode.

848
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.139
I just want to make clear you're talking about the series 2 finale

849
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:34.619
Doomsday and not the multimedia platform event Doomsday.

850
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:35.760
No, I haven't seen that.

851
00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:37.079
That's for other people to enjoy.

852
00:40:37.860 --> 00:40:40.079
In inverted comments.

853
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:44.940
I think it's interesting that the doctor is willing to punch and

854
00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:48.900
shoot a time law in order to generate, which is which is pretty

855
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:53.099
extreme, you know, and then to get the surprise of Tanya Miller

856
00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:55.800
suddenly standing up and saying that, you know, it's glad that

857
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.340
she's a woman again, like, and it's extraordinary.

858
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:00.719
What about that, right?

859
00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:05.519
So Moffat doesn't ever cast a female doctor and I'm kind of a bit

860
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:09.900
happy about that because I think Moffat is very feminist in all

861
00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:14.099
sorts of ways, but he is probably not the right person to

862
00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:15.360
introduce a female doctor.

863
00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:16.980
We would have had a very gun girl.

864
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:18.599
You know how he writes for women.

865
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.820
Yeah, it would have been it would have been a Clara.

866
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:21.480
Yeah.

867
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:22.139
Yeah.

868
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:24.599
He's actually already written the female doctor.

869
00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:25.619
That's exactly right.

870
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:29.280
So he introduces a companion who shows you that a female doctor

871
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:29.820
works.

872
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:34.380
He has a companion who has stolen it artist from Gallifrey and is

873
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.679
off to see the universe, who does all the doctorary things all the

874
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:42.300
way back from flatline, all the way back from death in heaven.

875
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:47.340
She's been like the doctor and she works, I think, for that

876
00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:47.820
reason.

877
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:53.280
But that regeneration isn't just a white man regenerating into a

878
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:54.059
black woman.

879
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:58.739
It's also a character, Ken Bones character.

880
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.940
It turns out, is his 10th regeneration.

881
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:03.539
He's number 11.

882
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:09.300
He has always been a woman before that and now he's turned back

883
00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:10.619
into a woman.

884
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:14.880
And so it turns out that sometimes people have a series of

885
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.320
regenerations where they're the same sex, the same gender, but

886
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:23.940
just one time it becomes they gender flip, and that's a thing that

887
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:24.300
happens.

888
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:26.280
He gets a gag out of it.

889
00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:28.739
You know, I don't know how you cope with all the ego.

890
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.800
But after the gender flip, they turn into a person of colour.

891
00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:37.139
Well, so that's, yeah, I mean, you know, that's a kind of thing

892
00:42:37.139 --> 00:42:42.300
that is Moffat, making it canonically possible for all of the

893
00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:45.539
people who care about that sort of thing who don't realise that

894
00:42:45.539 --> 00:42:48.659
it's just whoever we're picking to be the doctor becomes the

895
00:42:48.659 --> 00:42:50.219
doctor and you can all shut up.

896
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.519
But yeah, you know, like he makes it canonical.

897
00:42:53.579 --> 00:42:54.239
It a big deal.

898
00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:58.019
She is so young in it. amazing.

899
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:00.780
I mean, how can you tell if she's young, but she's just so

900
00:43:00.780 --> 00:43:03.059
agelessly ethereally beautiful?

901
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:06.420
stunningly beautiful always, but I was just struck by how young

902
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:07.800
she is. where we love her from.

903
00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:09.539
Mostly is years and years.

904
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:10.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

905
00:43:10.619 --> 00:43:12.239
Yeah, she was magnificent in that.

906
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.940
It did strike me as something different.

907
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.980
It did strike me very much as something different.

908
00:43:17.340 --> 00:43:19.139
Just with her presence.

909
00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:20.820
She's been so good.

910
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:22.199
She was so cheerful.

911
00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:25.800
It was so lovely to see how kind of happy she was to be a woman

912
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:27.480
again and it was sort of awesome.

913
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:30.420
The extraction chamber.

914
00:43:30.539 --> 00:43:35.099
Always gets me thinking about, what if other doctors decided to

915
00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:36.239
well, not decided to go there.

916
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.679
Like, we never went, gets back thinking of what...

917
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:45.599
Imagine Adric meets Clara in a tale of the TARDIS, and Clara

918
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:49.139
explains that the doctor went to great lengths, you know, waited a

919
00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:51.719
1000000000 years and smashed through a wall.

920
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:55.139
Taterina extracted new trampoline balance.

921
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.539
Russell has already written this.

922
00:43:57.659 --> 00:43:59.820
It's like Adric.

923
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:02.340
He didn't even like...

924
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:02.880
Yeah that's right.

925
00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:04.619
Adrick wouldn't want us to mourn.

926
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:06.780
He'd want us to go to the Great Exhibition.

927
00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:10.440
The moment just before stylistic Dodo's brain turns to mush.

928
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:14.219
It was space syphilis.

929
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:14.940
Oh sorry.

930
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.940
I think that that's beautifully directed.

931
00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:21.179
And I think, you know, there's the sound.

932
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.280
The doctor says that there's a sound.

933
00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:24.300
This is so moffty.

934
00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:26.219
This is he could do these things in his sleep.

935
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.219
There's a sound that you've trained yourself not to hear, but it's

936
00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:30.300
the sound of your heartbeat.

937
00:44:30.300 --> 00:44:33.480
And the thing that sounds weird to you is that you can't hear it.

938
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:36.599
And the way that's brought across in the direction is just that

939
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:39.599
very high pitch ringing in your ears that you get in the

940
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:40.559
extraction chamber.

941
00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:43.739
And also the way the colours separate as well.

942
00:44:43.860 --> 00:44:46.920
It's like a TV effect.

943
00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:48.059
I love that.

944
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:48.420
Yeah.

945
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:49.440
The chroma split.

946
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:50.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

947
00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:53.579
It's really good because it just reminds you that we're on TV.

948
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:57.780
We're just going into a previous episode to bring Clara out.

949
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:01.800
It's a slightly up-to-date CGI version of the effect and greatest

950
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:04.980
show in the galaxy when the doctor is going through the tunnel to

951
00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:05.400
the gods.

952
00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:08.519
It's got that same kind of, as you say, Richard, where the chrome

953
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:09.179
has been split away.

954
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:10.679
It's really good.

955
00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:12.659
Good old Quantil.

956
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.599
We miss it, don't we?

957
00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:16.320
We do.

958
00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:31.139
I think we can all agree that no matter what you think of this

959
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:33.179
episode, it is better than Arc of Infinity.

960
00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:33.840
No, that is true.

961
00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:36.599
That's true, despite the presence of the time lords in it.

962
00:45:36.659 --> 00:45:37.559
It's funny.

963
00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:40.980
I'm actually really liking it more than what I came in too.

964
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:42.659
It's a real-time Todd experience.

965
00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:44.579
Just one point more.

966
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.920
I'll just bump it up from 8 to a nine.

967
00:45:46.980 --> 00:45:49.619
I think it is, like, I think it's properly clever, and I think the

968
00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:50.940
2 of them are properly epic.

969
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:55.559
I think that it absolutely epitomises the problems that we had

970
00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:01.079
with this season in that it's really introspective and it's all

971
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:05.159
about our little small cast of characters that we've seen before

972
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:06.780
and that we've known for a while.

973
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:14.099
I guess knowing that it's Moffat thinking that he's on his way out

974
00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:19.800
then it becomes a little bit more like journeys end where most of

975
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.679
the characters are, you know, former regulars and stuff.

976
00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:26.039
And so it's forgivable, it's understandable, and it's done a

977
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:28.920
little bit more deftly than it is, I think, probably in journey's

978
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:29.159
end.

979
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:33.659
But, you know, his right to not attempt it the following year, I

980
00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:33.900
think.

981
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.840
Which when we get to it is amazing.

982
00:46:36.900 --> 00:46:41.219
I do think it's one of those Mothat season enders, which always

983
00:46:41.219 --> 00:46:44.039
receive a bit of a backlash, not because they're not very good.

984
00:46:44.099 --> 00:46:47.820
Often they are very good, where it's just not quite what the

985
00:46:47.820 --> 00:46:48.780
audience was expecting.

986
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:52.139
And so, yeah, people react against that.

987
00:46:52.199 --> 00:46:55.380
And we're challenged in the way that you're challenged when you

988
00:46:55.380 --> 00:46:59.400
read to put your phone away and to not listen to your loving

989
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:00.119
loving family.

990
00:47:00.179 --> 00:47:02.519
Can television achieve that?

991
00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:06.119
I would like to know, Todd, maybe, you know, were there any BAFTA

992
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:07.980
nominations for last week's episode?

993
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:10.440
Because it was really...

994
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:14.039
I may be entirely wrong on this, but I think it might have been

995
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:15.239
nominated for a Saturn award.

996
00:47:15.300 --> 00:47:16.320
Is that all?

997
00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:18.179
God, not even a Hugo.

998
00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:21.119
I mean, it's so beautifully shot.

999
00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:24.719
It's, I wanted to talk about Albert Commuse's myth of Sisyphus, but

1000
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.420
I've fortunately the audience has been spared that.

1001
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.599
We already talked we already talked about Dodo Sisyphus.

1002
00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.780
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1003
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:04.500
We'll be back next week to take one last longing look over the

1004
00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:07.800
last 12 weeks in our Series 9 retrospective.

1005
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:09.300
Woo hoo.

1006
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:12.360
I'm tired already.

1007
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:16.380
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1008
00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:20.219
and you can keep up with us on our website, flight throughentirety

1009
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:23.280
com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as

1010
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:27.360
links to our other podcasts, including Startling Barbara Bain

1011
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:30.300
Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek Project.

1012
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:34.619
Until next time, eat all the pairs you want.

1013
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:35.639
Don't let him bully you.

1014
00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:37.980
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1015
00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:41.099
See you soon good night But they're squelchy.

1016
00:48:45.059 --> 00:48:48.840
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan

1017
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.820
Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, and Richard Stone.

1018
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:53.039
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1019
00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:56.940
This episode, the shooting gallery of retired British thespians

1020
00:48:56.940 --> 00:49:00.719
was recorded on the 12th of November 2023 and released on the 3rd

1021
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:01.500
of December.

1022
00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:06.059
So, we've launched our new Doctor Who Flashcast, The Second Great

1023
00:49:06.059 --> 00:49:09.599
and Bountiful Human Empire, where we record our half baked

1024
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:12.900
reactions to each new episode of Doctor Who just after it airs.

1025
00:49:13.019 --> 00:49:16.860
The Starbeast is out already, and Wild Blue Yonder will be out in

1026
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:17.760
just a day or so.

1027
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:21.659
Check us out at the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.com.

1028
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:28.079
Oh, I think Peter looks great in his... my favourite outfit.

1029
00:49:28.139 --> 00:49:30.659
My favourite outfit is the long velvet coat.

1030
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:31.320
Yeah.

1031
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:35.880
A nod, both to... and Paul McCann.

1032
00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:40.260
I love these kind of petrol blue coat from next season, the one

1033
00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:41.519
that he wears in the Lie of Gland.

1034
00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:42.360
Is it velvet?

1035
00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:42.960
Amazing.

1036
00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:44.460
Not the torn one.

1037
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:47.519
The one that looks like Tippy Hedron's pigeons that had a go on.

1038
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.679
Don't like that.

1039
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:51.000
It might be a bit to one, actually, yeah.

1040
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:54.300
Don't like that one, but do like, oh, no, it's just gorgeous.

1041
00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:56.460
And he's so lean and raw.

1042
00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:56.880
He is.

1043
00:49:56.940 --> 00:49:58.500
David Bowie of Doctor Who.

1044
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:00.300
He's amazing Only younger looking.

1045
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:01.500
But it's incredible.

1046
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:08.460
Like how in this episode he can be so emotional and yet Scottish.

1047
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:12.420
Yeah, but we've seen a lot of comedy moments throughout the season

1048
00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:15.900
he's very, very funny, but here there's less of that.

1049
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:19.320
There's one or two. the odd line.

1050
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:23.400
When he explains the matrix to Clara and she says, so that didn't

1051
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:24.000
hurt, did it?

1052
00:50:24.059 --> 00:50:25.019
He said a tiny bit.

1053
00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:26.579
And I felt that too.

1054
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:27.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1055
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:28.500
Because it all had that moment.

1056
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:30.900
Interestingly, have to go down to a physical matrix.

1057
00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:32.099
Yeah, yeah.

1058
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:32.699
Yes.

1059
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.500
But it's a dream.

1060
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:35.820
Of course.

1061
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:39.840
I wasn't sure if that wasn't a part of a dream within a dream or

1062
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:44.099
even if Gullifree itself exists in some article or some node or

1063
00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:47.820
point of energy and doesn't have a physical reality anymore and

1064
00:50:47.820 --> 00:50:49.260
it's all in a dream scape.

1065
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:51.059
The way the narrative folded around.

1066
00:50:51.179 --> 00:50:54.900
It felt like, again, it felt like a bork is...

1067
00:50:55.019 --> 00:50:57.119
I mean, are those cloisters meant to be the same kind of under

1068
00:50:57.119 --> 00:50:59.099
galleries that we see in the deadly assassin?

1069
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:01.139
Do you know my?

1070
00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:02.400
Yes, and you know my favourite bit of that?

1071
00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:06.360
They've almost got the same light tubes that they used to use on

1072
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:08.219
Buck Rogers as fuel lines.

1073
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.300
So the, all they use in Texas City Station on Journey to where in

1074
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:13.619
Space 1979?

1075
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:15.780
Stairs in deleted scenes from Battlefield.

1076
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:16.619
Yes, that's it.

1077
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:18.059
Lop, lop, lop, lop.

1078
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:18.420
That it.

1079
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.119
Shame he didn't have the keeper of the Matrix.

1080
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:24.300
They could have recast him. would have had a field day with that.

1081
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:25.800
Who was it originally?

1082
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:27.300
James.

1083
00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:28.260
Oh, no, we need that.

1084
00:51:31.019 --> 00:51:31.500
You are.