WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:18:47

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that involves a lot of day drinking.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Melvin.

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Well, it's the 4th of February 1814, and at the heart of the

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British Empire is a massive sprawling monster that consumes human

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life at scale and converts it into massive profits for the

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wealthy.

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And also, there's this eel thing chained up in the Thames.

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It's thin ice.

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Alright, I'm gonna lay my card straight on the table, and I think

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this is a top tier episode, and perhaps one of the best companion

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introductions in the history of the show.

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What do you think, Melbourne?

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Absolutely.

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I agree across the board?

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I don't think I'd watched season 10 since maybe maybe a year or 2

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after it went out and revisiting it now.

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Bill is such a breath of fresh air.

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Capaldi's doctor is almost a new, a new character.

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He has such a new lease of life, a new approach to life.

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Uh, and Bill is a big part of that.

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And to have him being a university professor, which is something

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in a previous life, I was, means it's really wonderful to revisit

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that now.

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Uh, it's really refreshing.

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What did you keep in your vault, Melvin?

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Mostly action figures.

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Wouldn't expect anything less.

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Hey, I really enjoy these 1st 3 episodes of the season for the

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character building of Bill and the relationship between her and

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the doctor and especially in this episode and I think by next

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episode they are fully formed.

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And I think that's one of the biggest strengths.

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I'm perhaps not as enamoured with this as what you are, Nathan as

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a top tier.

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I think it's enjoyable and good.

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I do think the main villain is a bit one dimensional, if I can put

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it like that, but that doesn't detract from it.

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Like I'm, here we go.

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It's a 7.5 to an 8 out of 10.

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So just wait.

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Just wait.

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Which is just wait until the end.

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See what we can do.

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See what we can do.

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But I think it's better than last week's episode, right?

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which I think is the weakest of the fall thus far, but I do like

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it and I really like the refreshing take that the character of

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Bill brings to the show.

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I think too often with companion introductions.

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We're just used to companions reacting like a Doctor Who companion

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to people dying.

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Like no reaction, really.

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And we just accept it.

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And here she's really challenging things.

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And it's initially, I think, quite not off-putting, but I kind of

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going, oh, oh, I hadn't thought about that and it's actually very

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real.

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Yeah, I think I'm a Todd on this one.

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I think this is a top tier mid-tier episode at the top of the mid

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tier.

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I think it's really well written and really, it's good mostly for

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what Bill brings.

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I think the focus on Bill and Bill's reactions is something that

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sets the episode apart.

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And also what it is, is just superbly confidently made.

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It's an excellent production and you can't oversell the importance

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of that in Doctor Who.

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I think we'll come back to Beale in a minute because I think she's

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the backbone of the main plot of the story.

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The story is about introducing Bill not just to the genre, but to

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this particular TV program.

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In a way that we didn't really do that much of last week.

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But let's talk about how it looks because I'm astounded by how

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amazing it looks.

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I've just come from watching it again.

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And, you know, there's a lot of elements being stitched together

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and stuff, but somehow it just works perfectly.

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And like that shot at the beginning.

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You know, we move.

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We didn't talk about this last week, but we recap the ending of

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last week with the elephant on the Tam.

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Well, actually, that scene was stolen from the start of thin ice

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because it was...

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Yeah, of course.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But then we move up to the bridge, and we're looking out, and

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Capoldi's in front of that backdrop, and there's no hint that he's

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been matted in or anything like that.

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It's so it's so seamless.

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It's so flawless.

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I think what they've mastered by this point in the show's history

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and the new show's history, is being able to stitch together

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things seamlessly, as you said.

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So that there's just, there's a couple of crucial shots where

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everything's mattered and composited together, which totally sell

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it.

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You wouldn't believe that some of it was blue screens.

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Some of it was a set in studio, some of it was on location.

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It's just so easily put together that you absolutely buy that

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you're on the Thames at a frost fair in 1814.

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And this is a regular episode.

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This isn't a banner episode.

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It's not Christmas, although it could be.

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One of the other things about the Moffat era is that where, you

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know, RTD seems very comfortable both in contemporary times and in

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like, for strangely, the 51st century.

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The Mafa era has a real confidence and comfort in Victorian

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times.

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Like, uh, see deep breath or any of the the patternoster gang

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episodes.

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Like, there's something that's my whalehouse as well. really enjoy

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that.

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So it brings something to this era for me.

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Yeah, and there's something to the, again, part of the look of the

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episode is, I feel like that there's a great comfort with that.

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And as far as I remember, the bridge set, the fair set was

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entirely built for this episode, wasn't it?

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So I don't know that there's actually any compositing in the

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bridge scenes at all, is there?

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There's some location work that we do see.

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But I think the bridge thing is a set.

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And when we come down from the bridge onto the ice and we see the

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bridge, like I think that's fairly clearly a set as well.

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But it is a very accomplished set.

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And I think that the director whose name is Bill Anderson.

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What's he done?

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He did this recording block, didn't he?

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He does the next episode.

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He does.

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Yeah, so he does this a knock knock.

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But, I mean, even last week we commented on how well that building

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was matted into the barley field or whatever on that planet, you

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know, and then we had characters in the foreground that were just

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sort of seamlessly in there.

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This guy has just managed, you know, he just, he normally does tag

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it and stuff, like, or Mr. Selfridge.

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I don't even know what that is.

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Something to do with white goods.

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I'm not sure, but he's just a normal TV director, but this is such

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an incredibly confident production.

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It's what the program has got really good at.

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So you go back to the Russell T. Davies era and you will have one

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or 2 glamour shots which sell things.

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So you'll have the wide shot to start where it's, you know, a

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market on, what's that planet in turn left?

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Shan Shan.

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And it will come down and then that's the last you see of the

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world.

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You're in a set.

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Whereas what they've got really good at is just kind of using the

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occasional shot very cleverly put together and very expensive

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which sells the entire thing.

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And Series 10 is full of moments like that.

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They use their budget so well now.

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Everything's on the screen.

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Even the big dumb rubber monster looks amazing.

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Are you still talking about Queen Victoria?

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But don't you think?

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Like as it goes past the camera at the end.

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Oh yeah, I think that looks good.

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Perhaps not as sold when it's completely underwater, but I love

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all the old style diving equipment. and all that.

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I love all that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I probably would have preferred terror of the Zygon style stop

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motion.

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With a terrier's head.

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One of the great things about this episode and that sort of idea

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of setting and place is the sort of, I want to say that Capaldi's

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doctor has, at least in this episode, there's a concentration and

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a focus on using what's about to solve the issues to solve the

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problems.

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You know, he's got the Sonic and whatever, but what you were

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saying about the diving costumes.

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Like, it's almost as though he has, uh, because I went and did

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some a little bit of research and the diving costumes that they

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used weren't available, weren't useable, weren't, uh, weren't in

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practice until sort of the 1830s, the mid 1830s.

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And, you know, there's the scene where he's talking to the urchins

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and reading them the poem about Conrad, the thumb sucker.

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And yeah, that's 1845.

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So what I'm assuming is that he sort of like river has that hidden

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liquor cabinet in the in the console room, that Capaldi has sort

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of a cabinet of anachronistic trinkets that he, you know, can pull

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out at a moment's notice because he didn't get the diving bell

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there.

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I asked my head cannon is that he went back to the TARDIS, rolled

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that thing out to use it for this particular adventure, which I

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just find. find that charming.

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And I wish there were more, that there was more Doctor Who like

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that, where you're sort of constrained by what is available in

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that, not necessarily in that particular era, but in that

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historical context.

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I also think too, like we commented on the recent episode Rogue

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and said that it was really nice to have a doctor who dressed up

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to go into the past again.

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But it was fairly recent, wasn't it?

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And having Capaldi.

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Like Capaldi's look is perfect for this and I love Bill's outfit.

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I wonder if the idea of the frost and having everything just

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slightly kind of muted and white and stuff in the background helps

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to sell it.

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So we don't get very crispy images of what's going on

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necessarily.

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And often you get, just get the doctor in the, in the hat against

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what is a white background and we can't quite see what's going on

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because of the mist and stuff. it sells it so well.

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There's those scenes of sort of the people disappearing into the

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mist, which is just basically a warrior's gate style white.

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But because you've just, like we were saying earlier, you've just

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had those shots in and amongst the tents on the frost fair, and a

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well chosen higher shot, which kind of shows you the entire thing

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with some bits matted in.

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That's all you need.

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You can just go to a corner of the studio and have someone

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disappearing into mist.

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Let's talk about Bill, because she's obviously the centre of it

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and this is a companion introduction story.

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And when we 1st met Bill in the terrible friend from the future, in

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the terrible friend from the future, in her role as Bill, like

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that was kind of terrible, but she was presented to someone who

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questions the doctor, and in particular, she's familiar with the

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genre that she's in, and so she does.

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And I guess, I guess Ruby Sunday will do something fairly similar

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later, but she does the thing about what are the rules of time

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travel.

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I think even Martha does that too, doesn't she?

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Well, there was a genre fan.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So she's a genre fan.

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So she knows about, you know, the sound of thunder and treading on

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butterflies and we have that conversation about Pete.

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And my theory is Pete is Pete McTie because...

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Because Sarah Dollard and Pete McTie know one another.

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Oh, absolutely.

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And I think, yeah, they both work together on Neighbours and both

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living in Britain at the time.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So I think that's Pete.

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And so we've got all of that discussion about the genre stuff and

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how time travel works and that's how the episode ends.

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Isn't it where Bill goes back and checks what impact they've had

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on history and stuff.

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And one of the things, and I think that this anticipates what

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happens later, because the questions that she starts to ask after

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00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:42.539
that are much more interesting and are much more central to who

251
00:12:42.539 --> 00:12:45.659
the doctor is as a character and what sort of show we have.

252
00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.620
And that's what I think is brilliant about this episode.

253
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:54.240
You start with a companion whose shtick, like part of her sort of

254
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:59.820
one paragraph description is she asks questions about sort of

255
00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:03.419
science fiction-y things that are happening, but instead you have

256
00:13:03.419 --> 00:13:05.399
her ask much, much more important questions.

257
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:06.299
I think that's great.

258
00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:11.220
But in that conversation about genre, for me, time travel is

259
00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:16.259
always a moral problem in Doctor Who, because of the idea that

260
00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:19.679
people with sort of extreme genre brain think that it's immoral to

261
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:20.519
change the past.

262
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:25.980
And what you get is Bill saying, you know, any decision I make now

263
00:13:25.980 --> 00:13:27.299
could affect the future.

264
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.799
And the doctor says, yes, it's like that all the time.

265
00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:33.659
Just get on with it.

266
00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:37.500
Any decision you make at any time could affect the entirety of the

267
00:13:37.500 --> 00:13:38.039
future.

268
00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:39.360
Just get on with it.

269
00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:41.940
And I think that's such a brilliant way of kind of dealing with

270
00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:42.059
it.

271
00:13:42.179 --> 00:13:45.419
Well, one of the things about Bill's questions is that they aren't

272
00:13:45.419 --> 00:13:48.659
just the standard like 80s Doctor Who companion.

273
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:49.799
What is this doctor?

274
00:13:49.860 --> 00:13:50.820
What does this mean, doctor?

275
00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:51.720
What is that, doctor?

276
00:13:51.779 --> 00:13:54.600
Like, she's been prepped for this. you know, go back to the

277
00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:55.019
pilot.

278
00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.779
You know, he makes her serving apprenticeship.

279
00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:59.039
You know, he makes her write papers.

280
00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:01.799
Again, I'm thinking about my own university professorial

281
00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:06.360
background and like the fact that he more or less recruits her to

282
00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:10.440
time travel with him because he says in the pilot, you know, when

283
00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:13.080
I when I say something that's confusing, you smile.

284
00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:15.299
You know, you're the only person who smiles.

285
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.899
And so she's asking, not only asking genre questions, but she's

286
00:14:18.899 --> 00:14:20.399
asking practical questions.

287
00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:22.860
Like, this is what the one of the things that that university

288
00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:26.879
setting allows you is this almost Socratic relationship between

289
00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:30.059
Bill and the doctor, where she's asking, he is presenting a

290
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:30.419
problem.

291
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.039
She asks a question.

292
00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:32.940
He answers it.

293
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.639
She asks for clarification, and then they immediately put it into

294
00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:36.000
practice.

295
00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:37.620
Like, I love that.

296
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.139
I don't know that we've ever had that approach in Doctor Who

297
00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:40.440
before.

298
00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:44.460
As much as Ace used to call the 7th doctor professor, like this

299
00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:48.840
explicitly tutorial relationship is it's really new and it's

300
00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:49.559
really refreshing.

301
00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:55.080
I think it's, um, it's a shame in many ways, the historical kind

302
00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:59.879
of the flow of Doctor Who, that we got a fairly hard reboot of the

303
00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:04.379
show for series 11, which overshadowed the lovely soft reboot that

304
00:15:04.379 --> 00:15:05.340
it got for series 10.

305
00:15:05.580 --> 00:15:09.539
I think the pilot and these 3 episodes up to thin ice are such a

306
00:15:09.539 --> 00:15:13.139
lovely dropping on point for Doctor Who, where you could just, you

307
00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:16.139
could come in and find the entire length and breadth of the show

308
00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:19.980
in these 3 episodes with all the questions you needed answered and

309
00:15:19.980 --> 00:15:22.259
bills are really good kind of lead through that.

310
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:23.039
Yeah.

311
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:24.419
And that's one of the follow-ups.

312
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.519
I was going to say when Nathan, you were saying earlier about this

313
00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:28.860
being a sort of top tier episode of Doctor Who.

314
00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.460
This is one that I never hear talked about when people say, what

315
00:15:32.460 --> 00:15:34.259
is a good new to who episode?

316
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.679
What would you show to someone who had never seen Doctor Who, where

317
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.899
they could step on and get what it's about?

318
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.500
And this episode, from start to finish, and a lot of the, a lot of

319
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:47.639
it because of that question, answer, you know, theory and practice

320
00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:52.139
you know, mess up and then try again, uh, uh, the format of the, of

321
00:15:52.139 --> 00:15:54.419
the way that their relationship works through this episode.

322
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.539
This is a perfect episode for that, which, you know, the 1st time

323
00:15:57.539 --> 00:16:00.840
I rewatched it for this recording, that was the thing that really

324
00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:03.539
stuck out on me is how does no one talk about this as an episode

325
00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:05.580
you would use to introduce someone to Doctor Who.

326
00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:06.779
Yeah.

327
00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.720
It's very light on law as well, which I think helps too.

328
00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:14.879
Like, it's unusual that there are no aliens in it at all, and even

329
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:20.879
tiny, the sea monster seems to be native to Earth, or at least the

330
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:22.559
doctor says it's immaterial.

331
00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:23.879
We don't where it comes from.

332
00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:26.759
I think we might be asking ourselves the wrong question about the

333
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:27.779
quality of this episode.

334
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.139
The question is, is it as good as the 1st time Doctor Who had an

335
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:31.740
elephant in it?

336
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:36.960
The answer is, yes, it is.

337
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.580
It's certainly less racist than the 1st time that Doctor Who had

338
00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:42.419
an elephant in it.

339
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:44.039
And there's no security kitchen either.

340
00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:45.120
No, which is such a shame.

341
00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:46.019
It is a shame.

342
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:46.860
That's negative, yes.

343
00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.860
But it's, you're saying it's less racist.

344
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:53.820
I think it's really important that it does bring up racism.

345
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.820
Yeah, for Bill's character and her concern over that.

346
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:01.259
And certainly the doctor's reaction when he's, you know, going to

347
00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:03.720
be very diplomatic and then punches that charming.

348
00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:04.619
He was going to be charming.

349
00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:06.180
Charming. charming.

350
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:09.000
And then he punches Lord Sutcliffe in the face, which is just a

351
00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:09.779
brilliant moment.

352
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:13.500
But just the way they are willing to talk about things like, you

353
00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:16.859
know, the doctor says, um, history's a whitewash.

354
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.339
Yeah.

355
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:22.019
It's great as well in that when Bill mentions slavery, there isn't

356
00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:25.680
a massive discussion on it, Capaldi does it all in one look.

357
00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:29.400
And it's a really affecting, look, shows how great of an actor he

358
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:29.579
is.

359
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:36.000
In fact, you remember how Martha's concerns in the Shakespeare

360
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.920
code get dismissed.

361
00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:41.099
And so she says, look, I'm not exactly white.

362
00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.519
It's 1605 or something like that or 1599.

363
00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:45.240
I can't remember.

364
00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:46.140
It's around about then.

365
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.859
And the doctor says, just stroll about like you own the place, like

366
00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:52.259
Sylvester McCoy does in Silver Nemesis.

367
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.299
And you kind of think, well, that's great.

368
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.299
Doctor, but you're a white guy.

369
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:01.980
You know, like, like, uh, you're not addressing this issue and

370
00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:03.539
that issue then doesn't come up.

371
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.940
There's, you know, the sort of comedy archaic language used to

372
00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:12.119
describe Martha and her response to that and she...

373
00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:13.319
Something about the Queen of Africa?

374
00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:14.220
Well, yeah, yeah.

375
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:16.200
Like a more lady and stuff like that.

376
00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:19.799
But Martha's a response to that is great, and Freeman does a

377
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.819
really great job, kind of not seeming too upset by that, but also

378
00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:27.240
going, like, what the hell even is this, which I think is really

379
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:27.480
good.

380
00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:29.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

381
00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:32.099
But this is one scenario where he could, he could actually explain

382
00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:35.640
it away with a line because technically the slave trade was

383
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.500
abolished in Britain in 1807.

384
00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:40.799
So he could say, I mean, there's literally no danger of her being

385
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:41.519
taken.

386
00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:45.240
I mean, there aren't like in the in the US for the next like 75 or

387
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:46.980
80 years runaway slave laws.

388
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.259
Like, that kind of thing doesn't exist in Britain.

389
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.599
I mean the slave, slave trade was abolished in the colonies not

390
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:53.099
until like the 1830s.

391
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.559
So, I mean, it is technically still a thing.

392
00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:59.039
But there's nothing specifically for her to worry about in this

393
00:18:59.039 --> 00:18:59.880
moment at this time.

394
00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.940
But he doesn't dismiss it at all.

395
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:03.839
Exactly.

396
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.119
And he says that, yes, it is dangerous.

397
00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:10.019
But then when I think it's really interesting is a decision that

398
00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:16.259
the show makes at this point, because you've got an issue where if

399
00:19:16.259 --> 00:19:22.259
you're going to have stories set in England's past, then the kind

400
00:19:22.259 --> 00:19:25.200
of England that you've got to show, you have to make a decision

401
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.420
about what kind of England you're going to show.

402
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.740
And, you know, you're in London, which helps, which is more

403
00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:35.400
cosmopolitan and more racially diverse than other places in

404
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:35.880
England.

405
00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:40.740
But are you going to put out a casting call for extras and specify

406
00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:42.180
that they're all going to be white?

407
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:42.960
You know?

408
00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:49.559
And so what the doctor says is in universe that that history's a

409
00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:50.160
whitewash.

410
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:51.059
And that's clearly true.

411
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:52.740
And you think about Doctor Who's history.

412
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.200
Like, let's think about the hinge cliff era.

413
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:56.460
Let's play this on hard mode.

414
00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.680
It's the Hingecliff era. everyone loves it.

415
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:00.000
It's one of the show's high points.

416
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:02.400
It has virtually no women in it.

417
00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:04.500
And story after story after story.

418
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.900
It's telling stories of white men.

419
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:10.319
And that's in no way representative of the population of England

420
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.319
at the time, and it's a deliberate choice that the show is

421
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:13.799
making.

422
00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:18.059
And it's not making it because of some sort of conscious sense of

423
00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:19.079
white supremacy.

424
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:22.680
It's just making it because they're too lazy to think about it or

425
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:24.180
it doesn't, do you know what I mean?

426
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:28.259
It's still culpable. still a problem, but it's not as malicious as

427
00:20:28.259 --> 00:20:29.339
it might be, I think.

428
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:31.920
Here the show has to make a different decision.

429
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:37.619
And so what it does is it just has the doctor say, yes, things are

430
00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:39.660
less white than you remember.

431
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:41.400
And think about the way Bill puts it.

432
00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:45.000
It's Regency, England, it's much blacker than it is in the

433
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:45.539
movies.

434
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.079
Like she approaches it from the point of view of someone whose

435
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:50.339
genre savvy as well.

436
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:55.559
And so we're saying here that on this TV program, this is what the

437
00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:57.720
past is going to look like from now on.

438
00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:01.740
And I think that that's a really, really good call and it's

439
00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:04.740
something that Chibnal will go on and continue with.

440
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:08.940
And in a way, rogue, although Rogue has some odd genre things

441
00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:11.160
happening as well, kind of does the same thing.

442
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:16.859
You know, the danger is always underplaying the levels of racism

443
00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:18.720
at the time.

444
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.119
When you've got Bridgerton, you're kind of going, well, there

445
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.059
isn't historic racism in England and everything was fine.

446
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:26.460
And that's the danger that you have.

447
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:29.640
Here, I think it sort of strikes a balance.

448
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:34.559
It gets bill to express her concerns about being black in England

449
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:39.720
in 1814 and it shows a diverse group of people living in England

450
00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:40.799
at the time.

451
00:21:40.859 --> 00:21:44.460
There was a quote in Sarah Dollard's mind when she's writing the

452
00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:44.759
episode.

453
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:46.200
I interviewed her about this episode.

454
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:47.099
Oh, 2 magazine.

455
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:47.700
Oh, magical.

456
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:49.799
And she yeah, she's great.

457
00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:53.579
I know it's not cool to talk about Louis C.K. now, but back then

458
00:21:53.579 --> 00:21:54.599
he hadn't gotten into trouble.

459
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:59.279
And she had a quote of his in her mind, which ran, here's how

460
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:00.359
great it is to be white.

461
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:03.660
I get to go in a time machine and go to any time and will be

462
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:04.500
awesome when I get there.

463
00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:06.539
That's exclusively white privilege.

464
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.720
A black guy in a time machine's like, hey, anything before 1980.

465
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.380
No, thank you.

466
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:11.039
I don't want to go.

467
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:15.059
And so that's what she was thinking about when she was scripting

468
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:18.480
these scenes of Bill confronting what it's like to go into history

469
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.519
and what that would actually be like for a real person.

470
00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:21.359
Yeah.

471
00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:25.140
And like Doctor Who, in a way, doesn't want to get sort of too

472
00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:28.140
saddled with that in the Shooty Gantwa era.

473
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:32.519
And so it does its episode about racism before we go into the past

474
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:38.160
and it goes into a version of the past that is fictional in all

475
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.559
kinds of ways because of the effect of Bridgerton, I think.

476
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:44.640
And in many ways, I think that this episode's great strength is

477
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.299
that it manages to be quite a light, whimsical feeling episode.

478
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.140
Well, actually dealing with some quite big issues, but never

479
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:53.220
putting them on the nose.

480
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:59.039
It strikes a very delicate balance between the sort of, and again

481
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.619
I already talked about sort of the gentle anachronisms that, you

482
00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:03.779
know, you see with the with the gear and stuff like that.

483
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:09.180
But between being in history versus what the RTD 2 era seems to

484
00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:12.240
have gone for, and, you know, the more like straight ahead

485
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.759
historicals that of the Chibnol era.

486
00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:19.140
And what RTD 2 seems to have chosen is that explicitly fictional

487
00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:22.680
regency period, or explicitly fictional 18th century, where

488
00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:26.039
everything is colourblind, where it is sort of no one's paying

489
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:27.720
attention. like that isn't a factor.

490
00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:32.220
So the fact that he's like in here in thin ice, we're striking

491
00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:35.819
that balance between, yes, this is a genre show, but we're also

492
00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:40.140
looking at a specific historical moment is it's very impressive.

493
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:41.460
It's and it's very light.

494
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:42.299
It's a very light touch.

495
00:23:55.799 --> 00:24:01.680
It surprises me that it's not coming from Stephen Muffet's pen.

496
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:05.819
Like, when I was watching this, I was going, oh, yes, Stephen, and

497
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.579
then I realised, no, this is Sarah, you know, last week wasn't

498
00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:09.059
Stephen.

499
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:10.200
Next week's not Stephen.

500
00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:11.579
Oxygen's not Stephen.

501
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:15.000
Like these 4 episodes with all the world building for Bill and the

502
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.759
relationship and all these questions are coming, not from

503
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:18.240
Stephen.

504
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:20.700
He's obviously their supporting, but I think it's really

505
00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:25.740
significant, like that he's not putting his name to it. to take

506
00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:26.819
away from these other writers.

507
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.579
And they're obviously having huge conversations to ensure that

508
00:24:29.579 --> 00:24:31.740
they're on the same page and setting up this character because

509
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:35.099
she's a one season wonder if I can say it like that.

510
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:36.779
So that just surprises me.

511
00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:39.539
So like, I'm impressed by that, you know?

512
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:44.940
The other big issue, of course, is Bill's reaction to death, you

513
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:45.180
know?

514
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:49.019
Yeah, absolutely shocking when spider gets taken, like that young

515
00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:49.380
child.

516
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.640
That's pretty horrific.

517
00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:54.059
Like, even when I was watching it, I was thinking, you know, how I

518
00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:59.099
like my death and dying in Doctor Who, but, and, and, and, and

519
00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:02.400
having bad children actors dies in better, but that's not the case

520
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:02.819
here.

521
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.319
Like, it actually is.

522
00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:06.960
Like he grabs the Sonic and that's it. and she's absolutely

523
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:07.680
stunned.

524
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:11.160
That moment of brilliant black humour when he's only concerned

525
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.660
twice in this episode is to get the Sonic back before it goes into

526
00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:16.559
the depths of the terms.

527
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.859
And so I think what that plot is doing.

528
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.640
And I think that's the more important plot about introducing Bill

529
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:28.500
to the show is introducing her properly to the doctor as a

530
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:28.920
character.

531
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.359
And I think it's really, really well done.

532
00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:36.839
And, you know, Sarah Dollard is an incredibly good writer, and

533
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:38.519
it's done in a very rightly way.

534
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:45.839
So Spider is killed and the doctor grabs the Sonic.

535
00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:50.339
And you get kind of early season 8 vibes, the sort of, you know

536
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:54.240
he's the top layer, if anyone wants to say a few words, kind of

537
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.660
vibes about not caring when someone has died.

538
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.839
And it's not as explicit as that.

539
00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:03.839
Like he's not flip or kind of horrible, but he does just sort of

540
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:06.420
grab the, grab the Sonic and then run off.

541
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.220
And then you get Bill's response to that.

542
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:12.359
And we get the question about, have you seen people die?

543
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:17.220
And then the more important question, which hardly ever gets off.

544
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:20.519
Have you killed people, which is so good.

545
00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:24.119
And this is stuff we don't get from other Doctor Who companions.

546
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:30.180
And this is what impresses me so much and makes you really, well

547
00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:32.339
made me sort of just think twice about.

548
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.119
Oh, hang on.

549
00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:35.579
Yeah, like this is something that should be asked and has never

550
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:36.599
really been asked.

551
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:38.279
And that scene is just so impressive.

552
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:41.339
Like, you know, doctors does say I care, but I move on.

553
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.400
And after the response to that, have you ever killed anyone?

554
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.799
And, you know, he says, yeah, it's just very quiet.

555
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.019
And I just think there's a real strength in that.

556
00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:53.460
It's actually really good because he offers to kind of

557
00:26:53.460 --> 00:26:54.539
justification.

558
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:57.059
She says, have you ever killed anyone?

559
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.059
And he says, oh, you know, sometimes I'm in a position where, and

560
00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:01.500
she goes, that's not what I asked.

561
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:05.880
And she says it twice, she refuses to accept it, and then he

562
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:11.700
smiles, and then replies, like it's so, it's beautifully acted by

563
00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:12.660
Capaldi.

564
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:14.160
It's so well done.

565
00:27:14.220 --> 00:27:17.339
And it kind of, we're in a bad place, aren't we?

566
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:21.180
Like we just interrupted at that and we're still in a bad place, I

567
00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:23.579
think, at that point of the episode.

568
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:27.420
And I think that that's, you know, this episode much more than

569
00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:31.559
being about the sea monster in the Thames is about her learning

570
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.759
what the doctor is really like and what it means to be the doctor

571
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:36.299
as well.

572
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:39.660
Well, for me, one of the most devastating moments of the episode

573
00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:42.480
it nothing happens and you could gloss over it.

574
00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:45.720
You could completely miss it, but it's right before they have that

575
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:46.680
confrontation.

576
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:50.160
When the doctor is talking to Kitty, I think her name is, and he

577
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:51.119
says, we're going to help you.

578
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.099
And she goes, we, she's gone.

579
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:55.980
And he turns around and, you know, you were talking about the mist

580
00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:58.680
earlier and it's just him surrounded by me.

581
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:02.279
It's there's something really objectively terrifying about that.

582
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:04.440
Like, where has...

583
00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:06.420
Yes, like where has Bill gone?

584
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.960
And for me, again, going back to that professorial nature of their

585
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:13.740
the, the professor student, uh, tutor student nature of their

586
00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:18.059
relationship, when, when he does that smile, when she follows up

587
00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:18.779
on those questions?

588
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:21.720
Again, he has prepped her all through the pilot.

589
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:24.839
She's writing papers for him and she's like, you will not, we will

590
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:27.420
not continue this unless you get a 1st every time.

591
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:32.460
Like, he has prepped her to be in these situations to follow up

592
00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:36.240
questions, not to just take something at face value and move on.

593
00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:40.740
Like, I mean, to move on in this in this scenario means something

594
00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:44.400
different than accept what I say and let's let's do the next

595
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:44.700
thing.

596
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.460
Like he wants her to ask those questions.

597
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:49.740
She is learning in that in that scenario.

598
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:50.519
She is pushing him.

599
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.640
Yeah, it's he smiles, doesn't he?

600
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:58.500
Because he's, um, attempts to fob her off don't work, and on some

601
00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:00.299
level, he's pleased about that.

602
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:01.259
Yep.

603
00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:03.660
It's it's really, really good.

604
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.359
And that's because you have Sarah Dollard.

605
00:29:06.420 --> 00:29:11.039
And like the last time we saw Sarah Dollard, we've seen her once, I

606
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:12.119
so want her back.

607
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.000
What was her previous episode?

608
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:16.200
Face the Ravens.

609
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:16.799
Oh my god.

610
00:29:16.859 --> 00:29:17.160
Yeah.

611
00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:19.680
And the trouble with Face the Raven is, of course, that it's

612
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.519
interrupted sort of 10 minutes from the end by the needs of the

613
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:24.839
show.

614
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:25.799
Do you know what I mean?

615
00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:27.539
Yeah, it becomes a Doctor Who episode.

616
00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.900
But even the idea as well.

617
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:31.799
Do you know what I mean?

618
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:35.400
There's all these questions, which get raised in this one about

619
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:40.559
aliens and humans, and our assumption that aliens can be bad and

620
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.900
humans aren't quite so bad, and you've got refugees, we've got a

621
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:46.799
refugee camp.

622
00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:47.880
Like it's political.

623
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:50.640
It's a bit about race.

624
00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:54.119
It's certainly about, you know, who's moral in a particular

625
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:57.180
situation and she does that again here.

626
00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:01.079
Because we throw the face the Raven plot away.

627
00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:04.980
We throw the Trap Street plot away towards the end of the

628
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:05.339
episode.

629
00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:07.680
There's no real resolution to any of that.

630
00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:12.000
But she's good, and having her back was the right thing to do.

631
00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:17.099
And I think this episode is, if anything, better. because even

632
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:21.599
though it doesn't have the big shock moment and the incredible

633
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.960
acting opportunities for Capoldian Coleman at the end.

634
00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:28.019
It's just solid and has something to say.

635
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:32.339
And one of the things that it does is it interrogates the doctor's

636
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:32.940
character.

637
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.279
I don't want to reduce things to gender.

638
00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:39.000
But one of the things that is brilliant about having female

639
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:42.000
writers in Doctor Who, which is still less common than you would

640
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.660
hope it would be. is that they do bring a different perspective

641
00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:46.740
and experience.

642
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:47.640
They focus on...

643
00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:49.680
Do you remember enlightenment in the original series?

644
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:53.640
How that whole subplot with Tegan and Mariner, I don't think, would

645
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.640
ever have entered into the story if you'd had Eric Saywood writing

646
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:56.940
it.

647
00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:57.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

648
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.119
I don't think Terrence Dudley would have thought of it.

649
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:06.539
No, it just had a door or 2 to go through.

650
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:10.200
He would have turned it into a successful stalker plot where

651
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:11.759
Marinade ended up killing Tegan.

652
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.180
But yeah, no, I think it's really great.

653
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:19.440
And Sarah Dollard brings a very specific thing to her scripts.

654
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:21.480
I feel in Face the Raven and in thin ice.

655
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:39.059
And so after that, of course, we get the moment where they're with

656
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:46.380
the urchins, and Kitty's kind of accusing Bill, and Bill says, no

657
00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:49.859
I moved on, and it's because the doctor hasn't been able to save

658
00:31:49.859 --> 00:31:53.640
Spider, but he really, really, really properly does want to save

659
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:57.240
the urchins, and that's enough for her.

660
00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:00.480
He said, look, if I don't move on, people die.

661
00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:04.319
And he does that thing, which actually does sit badly, doesn't

662
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:04.500
it?

663
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.160
In over 2000 years, I've never had the luxury of outrage.

664
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:13.259
And you kind of think, maybe, but that doesn't sound like the

665
00:32:13.259 --> 00:32:13.920
pirate planet.

666
00:32:13.980 --> 00:32:14.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

667
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:18.960
That doesn't sound like you, does it?

668
00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:22.500
And there's something incredibly moffity about the line that

669
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:23.220
resolves it.

670
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.759
Isn't there that in 2000 years you've barely had time for anything

671
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:27.119
else?

672
00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:32.099
You know, I think that's that Sarah Dollard knowing how Moffatt

673
00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:33.779
writes the show.

674
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.019
Nathan, that entire scene is just gold.

675
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.420
You put Peter Capaldi with small children.

676
00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:40.200
Yeah.

677
00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:44.339
And just his chemistry with them and how he interacts with them is

678
00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:45.119
just brilliant.

679
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:47.279
And you can see Bill watching all of that.

680
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:50.279
And when she actually does say that move online and then she pokes

681
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:52.079
out her tongue and the chemistry between...

682
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:53.160
It's so adorable.

683
00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:57.059
And it's just, it's just, this is another moment we had moments in

684
00:32:57.059 --> 00:33:01.019
smile, but here it's sort of like, here is this team, we're

685
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:01.740
getting it together.

686
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:03.180
We are we're fine.

687
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.700
Like, we've already got it together, but we're really solidifying

688
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:05.880
it.

689
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:08.099
And this is us moving forward.

690
00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:12.359
I mean, I think she deliberately says move on because that's what

691
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:14.160
the doctor said before.

692
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:16.259
And the doctor looks at her.

693
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.859
And before he can be triumphant about it, she sticks her tongue

694
00:33:19.859 --> 00:33:20.400
out at him.

695
00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:21.059
It's perfect.

696
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:25.440
And this is why a friend from the future didn't work because that

697
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.819
gave you all of Bill's literal asking all of the on the nose

698
00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:32.579
questions without any of this context of what makes her a

699
00:33:32.579 --> 00:33:33.119
brilliant character.

700
00:33:33.180 --> 00:33:35.220
And I'm going to I keep coming back to it.

701
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:37.680
And I will keep coming back to it because I believe it's super

702
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.519
super important, is that is there, again, professorial tutorial

703
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:45.599
relationship, and one of the things revisiting this series and

704
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:50.160
thinking back on my own, uh, university history, the students that

705
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.880
you are most proud of, the students that you go, Sorry, I get

706
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:56.460
really emotional about this stuff, the students that you go to bat

707
00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:01.259
for, the ones that come to you after class and will, like, really

708
00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:01.859
impress you.

709
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.559
Those are the ones that you want to impress.

710
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:07.859
Those are the ones that make you want to raise your game as a

711
00:34:07.859 --> 00:34:09.000
teacher, as a professor.

712
00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:10.920
And so I see that in their relationship.

713
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.400
I see students who came to me after class and we're like, you know

714
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:16.619
I was reading this as speaking of racism.

715
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:19.139
There was a student who came to me one time talking about these

716
00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:22.320
close readings we had done and how he was reading an article in

717
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:26.280
the newspaper about how urban students were more used to seeing

718
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:26.820
guns.

719
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:28.559
And he was, he was pointing this out.

720
00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:31.980
He's like, the way that they talk about this, it's it's racially

721
00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:32.400
inflected.

722
00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:34.800
And I'm like, yes, exactly.

723
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:38.099
And that is that that is that moment where she says she's moved

724
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:38.400
on.

725
00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:42.960
It's the, you know, he is trying to impress upon her as time

726
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:43.619
travellers.

727
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:45.599
This is how we conduct ourselves.

728
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:49.619
This is how we approach these various scenarios and to see her

729
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:54.900
implement that in the next scene is it has to be a moment of just

730
00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:56.400
extreme pride for him.

731
00:34:56.699 --> 00:35:00.719
And, you know, we've had in the uh, the 2 previous Capaldi seasons

732
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:04.079
you know, the the season 8 doctor is, am I a good man?

733
00:35:04.139 --> 00:35:08.400
Like we've, we've, we've divorced in some ways in the Capaldi era

734
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:12.300
the doctor from who he is as a person, as a character.

735
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.300
In that season, he is trying to figure out, who am I?

736
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.780
In the in the next season, in the in the season where Clara

737
00:35:18.780 --> 00:35:19.199
leaves.

738
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:22.739
It's now that I know who I am, which is I'm an idiot with a box

739
00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:25.440
you know, how does that fit in with the doctor?

740
00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:26.880
How does that fit in with my role?

741
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:31.440
And now in the 3rd season with Bill, he has this more professorial

742
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:31.800
role.

743
00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:35.159
There's a different relationship, how he is, how he is.

744
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:40.500
As an idiot with a box, is different now that he is with Bill, and

745
00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:42.000
this affects everything.

746
00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:43.019
It affects everything.

747
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:48.900
I feel like this is him at his sort of most comfortable as himself

748
00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:50.579
and as the doctor.

749
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.059
Like this is him at his, this is peak Capaldi Doctor Who.

750
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:55.559
And I absolutely love it.

751
00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:59.039
It's true what you said, series 8 and 9 were quite inward

752
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:01.619
focussing on the doctor as the doctor focussing on himself.

753
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.539
This is seeing him through the prism of new eyes.

754
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:04.079
Yeah.

755
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:08.340
And I think it's Peter Pauldi's sweet spot, the characterisation

756
00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:11.219
of the doctor, I think, in this season is pretty perfect.

757
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.500
And we'd never had that before.

758
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:18.000
I mean, Clara, when she meets this new doctor, has been travelling

759
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.920
with the doctor already.

760
00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:22.440
And so she knows him.

761
00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:23.519
He's a known quantity.

762
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:25.079
She knows him terribly well.

763
00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:30.000
And so this, you know, like right from the pilot, even just from

764
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.679
the pilot, you know, Capoldi is so comfortable and so good.

765
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:39.960
I mean, this is a year where you have someone playing with Doctor

766
00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:44.820
Who is very nearly the best person ever to play the doctor in his

767
00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:46.980
best year as the doctor.

768
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:51.179
And so I think going forward, I'm not going to be wowed by every

769
00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:53.519
single episode, I think, this season.

770
00:36:53.579 --> 00:36:54.900
Maybe I am.

771
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:56.760
Uh, but...

772
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:58.860
Knock knock is to come.

773
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:03.420
But I'm so impressed by Capoldi as the doctor.

774
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.539
This is the doctor, I think, in an incredible way.

775
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:10.559
There's all those overarching things that make or break a Doctor

776
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.400
Who season.

777
00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:15.840
And so I've heard it mentioned that while the 3rd Capaldi series

778
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.500
is pretty well thought of as being his best overall, there are

779
00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:21.480
some people who grouse about the fact that some of the stories

780
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:23.460
aren't that great and so is it in fact?

781
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:25.679
Yeah, okay, there's some lesser entries in there.

782
00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:27.239
There's also some really great episodes.

783
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:31.019
But the fact that Capaldi is at the height of his powers, and

784
00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:33.239
they've really nailed the characterisation, and he's given a

785
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:37.139
companion who really works well with that characterisation, means

786
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:40.320
that that's what makes it feel like the best Capaldi season.

787
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:42.960
It doesn't come down to the nature of individual episodes.

788
00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:46.260
I mean, it's a bit like Lislated and Tom Baker.

789
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.639
Like, you know, like their chemistry and their height of powers

790
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:54.780
makes you watch anything, even the lesser entries, you still want

791
00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:58.199
to watch those episodes for their chemistry, and for their jokes

792
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.980
like even when they go in, to the, um, they go to the dredger's

793
00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:04.559
yard, and they're looking at the stuff that's been burnt, and

794
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:07.079
there's even comedy moment there at the end, you know, where she

795
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:09.360
says, oh, she's going to swear.

796
00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:14.340
And that's what I love about Doctor Who is when there's comedy

797
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:16.739
between the leads.

798
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.480
It's just the chemistry there.

799
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:24.539
That makes it for me, even when perhaps the plot is bit on thin

800
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:29.760
ice, so to speak, or a bit thin, like that's what elevates it.

801
00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:31.800
You know, I'm really thinking, Nathan.

802
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.639
No, no, no.

803
00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:34.320
An 8 out of 10 at least.

804
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:35.460
We'll get you there.

805
00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:37.619
That scene in particular.

806
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:41.280
Incredible. so beautifully written because it's really, really

807
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.500
funny and all it is is an exposition scene.

808
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:44.639
Yep, yeah.

809
00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:45.659
It's really well done.

810
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:50.519
They managed to sell the thing that it's the dung of the monsters

811
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:52.500
without ever explicitly saying it.

812
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:57.900
And it's the squelching sound when Bill puts it down and the look

813
00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:00.059
on her face that sells it more than anything else.

814
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.760
Doesn't it look like the stuff that comes out at the insect

815
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:04.079
machines in Snowpiercer?

816
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:05.579
don't know what that is.

817
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:07.260
Basically they feed the people.

818
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:11.099
They feed the people in the steerage of the train by putting all

819
00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:12.480
these insects into this machine.

820
00:39:12.539 --> 00:39:15.239
It comes out of this kind of black gelatinous mass that they all

821
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:15.719
eat up.

822
00:39:15.780 --> 00:39:17.880
It looks just like it.

823
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:21.780
But yeah, in this in this scene where they're interviewing or, you

824
00:39:21.780 --> 00:39:24.119
know, grilling the guy at the dredger's yard.

825
00:39:24.179 --> 00:39:27.360
He's still teaching her. you know, this is like, you know, this is

826
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:28.019
a mini boss.

827
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.659
If you were, you know, to put it in video game parlance.

828
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:33.059
You know, you don't have to be as, you don't have to be as

829
00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:33.840
assertive with him.

830
00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:35.760
You can make him give away his own secrets.

831
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:39.659
Like, I love that that part where Capaldi says, Suckcliffe will be

832
00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:41.880
very pleased with your inquisitiveness.

833
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.260
And he's like, oh, you think so?

834
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:45.719
And he's like, yeah, I think you'll, you know, he's like, you

835
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:48.539
won't be here long if you keep asking questions at this rate.

836
00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:52.139
I've already talked about, you know, any idiot could come in here

837
00:39:52.139 --> 00:39:53.400
and just get you blabbing.

838
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:59.340
I think the best bit is Bill's line where the doctor throws to

839
00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:04.320
Bill and says, is Sutcliffe expecting us or something, and Bill

840
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.800
delivers this line and kind of swallows it because she's making it

841
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:08.639
up as she goes along.

842
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:11.460
It's such a brilliant, perfect line delivery.

843
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.219
And it's, you know, no, no, he insisted that we come.

844
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:19.619
And he's kind of inviting her to participate in this and she nails

845
00:40:19.619 --> 00:40:22.440
it, but it's such a comedy line delivery.

846
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:25.079
I think that's a really, really properly great scene.

847
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.320
And again, it's because Sarah Dollard is an incredibly good

848
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:29.039
writer.

849
00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:35.099
And Bill, as a character, is so she's so genuine and so gentle and

850
00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:36.119
so unassuming.

851
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:37.679
Like, it's a completely different.

852
00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:40.260
I mean, obviously it's a completely different character than the

853
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:44.280
more sort of arch, knowing sort of approach that we would have

854
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.199
gotten from a Clara, say.

855
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.780
Like, again, the approach is so different.

856
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:52.679
It's so, again, it's just so gentle and so, so welcoming.

857
00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:54.239
You know, you feel like you're part of that.

858
00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:58.079
And even with all the issues that the episode is discussing.

859
00:40:58.139 --> 00:41:02.159
It's the doctor giving Bill permission to have fun. and the

860
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:03.000
expense of the bad guys.

861
00:41:03.300 --> 00:41:05.940
And so that speech.

862
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.360
So, like we've talked about the doctor punching cycliff in the

863
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:12.840
face, and obviously that's absolutely superb, and partly it's

864
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:17.400
superb because the doctor's being so high-minded, and in a way

865
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:21.780
he's telling a black woman not to get too angry about racism.

866
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.199
And he's putting himself in a position of sort of Olympian

867
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:28.380
detachment and rationality and stuff.

868
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:31.920
And he's kind of saying you have a tendency to lose your temper

869
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:33.360
about these kinds of things.

870
00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:35.460
And so it's not that great.

871
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.639
And then, of course, the moment Sutcliffe opens his mouth, Capaldi

872
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:39.480
punches him in the face.

873
00:41:39.539 --> 00:41:43.440
Do you remember that punching a racist in the face was having a

874
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.639
cultural moment at the time?

875
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:47.219
Remember what happened on Trump's inauguration day?

876
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:48.300
Oh no.

877
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:51.719
We had the white nationalist, Richard Spencer on TV.

878
00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:54.420
And someone just came up and punched him in the face.

879
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:55.380
He was being interviewed.

880
00:41:55.440 --> 00:42:00.059
He was explaining what the badge on his on his lapel mend and

881
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.159
someone just came up and punched him in the face.

882
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:05.940
Yeah, I would never advocate violence except comedy violence such

883
00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:06.239
as that.

884
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:07.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

885
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.420
No, punching white supremacists in the face.

886
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.800
And it, you know, like this episode airs a few months before the

887
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.579
unite, the right rally in Charlottesville, but obviously Trump is

888
00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:19.019
in the air.

889
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:20.760
It's in the air, isn't it?

890
00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:21.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

891
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.480
And those, yeah, those were those were ugly times too.

892
00:42:24.539 --> 00:42:25.800
I mean, there's still ugly.

893
00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:27.179
There still could be ugly times.

894
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:31.860
It's funny, isn't it, that we've been complaining over the last

895
00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:34.619
few episodes that Doctor Who often comes to things about 5 years

896
00:42:34.619 --> 00:42:39.360
late and starts talking about them, but here it's absolutely...

897
00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:43.199
No, but it's, you know, like we get Charlottesville in August and

898
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:44.400
this comes out in April.

899
00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:46.320
Like it's very, very timely.

900
00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:50.039
And of course, Trump's inauguration day was January 20, but Sarah

901
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:52.619
Dollard wouldn't have been referencing that because the script

902
00:42:52.619 --> 00:42:53.280
would have been written.

903
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:54.420
Yeah, exactly.

904
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:54.780
Yeah.

905
00:42:54.780 --> 00:42:55.440
Yeah.

906
00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:57.539
So I mean, that's incredibly good.

907
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.900
That scene is incredibly good, but then there's the speech that

908
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:06.719
Capoldi gives, which, and again, it's so rare to hear what the

909
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:13.739
doctor stands for, expressed so briefly and concisely, and he says

910
00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:17.519
human progress isn't measured through industry.

911
00:43:17.579 --> 00:43:23.579
It's measured by the way that we answer the question whose life is

912
00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:24.059
valuable.

913
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:29.340
And Suckcliffe thinks that his life and the lives of people like

914
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:32.940
him are valuable, but other people's lives aren't.

915
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:38.460
But progress comes when we regard people like Spider and Kitty as

916
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:43.019
valuable, even though they're unproductive urchins who steal

917
00:43:43.019 --> 00:43:43.800
things and stuff.

918
00:43:43.860 --> 00:43:46.619
And I think that that's a beautiful statement.

919
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:50.460
And Bill, like Bill's reaction to that.

920
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:55.559
The way that she is gazing at him and smiling, and then the way

921
00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:59.699
she comes back and says 2000 years, you've done nothing but

922
00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:01.500
outrage in that time.

923
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:04.440
It's like, it's a properly good speech.

924
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:08.400
It's not 10 minutes long, like the one at the end of the psychon

925
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.059
inversion.

926
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:10.679
Which also is amazing.

927
00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:13.500
Which is also amazing, yeah, but it is amazing.

928
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:17.340
It's a very condensed speech and but it is very effective.

929
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:20.159
And what she says to him in the carriage after is she follows up

930
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:22.500
on a different question from earlier because he had said, you know

931
00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:23.340
I'm 2000 years old.

932
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:26.280
And so Bill says, are you really 2000?

933
00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.380
And he's like, why do you ask?

934
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:31.139
And she's like, well, I want to know how long you have to live

935
00:44:31.139 --> 00:44:32.760
before you can make a speech like that.

936
00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:36.179
Like that, and again, that's that, that's that tutor student

937
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:39.360
moment where, you know, it's not the admiration she's looking at

938
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:42.840
him with isn't like, wow, isn't he so great?

939
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:48.119
It's the same thing as she came to him in a smile in the previous

940
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:50.639
episode with there's a moment where they're walking through the

941
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.039
corridors and she stops him for a 2nd.

942
00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:54.000
She's like, you know what?

943
00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:55.559
You are an awesome tutor.

944
00:44:55.619 --> 00:44:59.219
Like, it's, it's that, it's that look that she gives him.

945
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:01.500
It's, I can't believe I'm I'm learning.

946
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:02.880
I'm learning from him.

947
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:07.980
And it brings it back, I think, to the cleverness of Sarah Dollard

948
00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:12.300
in the frost fair is, of course, an amazing location for a dog 2

949
00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:13.500
episode to be set in.

950
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:15.480
I'm surprised that we haven't pitched up there.

951
00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:20.219
Well, we have, because in a good man goes through a war, river

952
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:26.280
comes home from this frost fair, where Stevie one taken.

953
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:26.940
Yes.

954
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.199
Don't tell him, though.

955
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:32.159
I'm surprised hasn't been the prime location for a doctor episode

956
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:32.760
so far.

957
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:37.019
And it has actually been in some spinoff media that are the... short

958
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:37.559
stories and things.

959
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:38.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

960
00:45:38.219 --> 00:45:41.699
But the thing is, the frost fair in Victorian London was one of

961
00:45:41.699 --> 00:45:44.639
the few forums where you would get all of the classes

962
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:45.960
interacting.

963
00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:49.739
And so that really sets it up for a discussion about that.

964
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:54.119
And so bringing in Sutcliffe and the urchins makes, you know, you

965
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.639
say all of London society, all of human society at the time

966
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:57.840
represented there.

967
00:45:57.900 --> 00:46:01.559
So it's a really good forum for those issues to be highlighted, I

968
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:01.679
think.

969
00:46:01.739 --> 00:46:05.579
And so this is where we get to see what the doctor stands for.

970
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:10.619
You know, this is why the doctor does what he does, is because he

971
00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:13.619
thinks all lives are important and that's why he puts a stop to

972
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:16.559
people oppressing people.

973
00:46:16.619 --> 00:46:21.300
And I think that there are just 2 more scenes in this arc that are

974
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:22.260
really, really important.

975
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:30.840
And the one is where he asks Bill what has to happen next.

976
00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:31.860
Yeah?

977
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:32.639
Give me an order.

978
00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:34.139
Yeah, give me an order.

979
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:39.480
And we have touched on that, haven't we, in Kill the Moon a bit

980
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:42.539
but this is done better than that, I think.

981
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:45.780
And I think he's revisiting it on purpose.

982
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:49.260
Again, I think it's part of the lesson to build because moments

983
00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:53.159
before, they're tied up in the tent with all the explosives and

984
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:56.880
they're kicking around the Sonic to try and get it to get it, which

985
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:57.840
is a funny comedy.

986
00:46:57.900 --> 00:46:59.159
John and Katie moment?

987
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:00.599
That's a John Katie moment?

988
00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:04.079
I'm trying to think because now she's in a, like we've done the

989
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:04.679
moral thing.

990
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:06.900
She's convinced that the doctor's a good guy.

991
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.239
And so now we're off to have a Doctor Who episode.

992
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:11.760
And so someone ties us to a bomb.

993
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:16.079
And then by the same token, I mean, you get that moment, the

994
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:18.900
repeat of the moment from deep breath where he's like, oh, I wish

995
00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:20.460
Amy were here because her legs are longer.

996
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:23.940
Yeah, but so she's like kicking the kicking the Sonic around, but

997
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:26.159
they have to lure the lackey back in.

998
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:29.400
So you get a repeat of the spider moment from earlier because

999
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:33.239
again, you have to, you have to sacrifice a lackey in order to

1000
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:33.480
move.

1001
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:35.460
And Bill is Bill is right there.

1002
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.860
You know, and she has to be part of it.

1003
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.820
It's not just that how many people have you seen die?

1004
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:44.519
It's how many people have you killed?

1005
00:47:44.579 --> 00:47:48.539
And so we see him trick that guy.

1006
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:52.320
And he does say that sort of blase thing about, oh, you know, it's

1007
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:55.260
got a knack to it pressing the off button on it.

1008
00:47:55.320 --> 00:48:00.539
But it absolutely clear that he deliberately kills that guy in

1009
00:48:00.539 --> 00:48:02.760
front of her and she's okay with it.

1010
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:05.579
And so, and so that's answered.

1011
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:07.980
I think that's so incredibly well done.

1012
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:11.039
It's that thing of the doctor doesn't really sit out to kill

1013
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.260
people, but he happily lets the villains fall into their own

1014
00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:13.619
traps.

1015
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:15.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1016
00:48:15.059 --> 00:48:16.679
But I mean, that guy's just some guy.

1017
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:17.699
Do you know what I mean?

1018
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:23.159
But it's it's just so well done that both of those questions that

1019
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.260
get raised get answered.

1020
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:27.239
It's very good.

1021
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:29.039
And again, it's practice.

1022
00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:32.579
It's practical implementation of the lesson he taught her

1023
00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:32.880
earlier.

1024
00:48:32.940 --> 00:48:36.119
And I, in the same episode, like I absolutely love that, that you

1025
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:39.420
get those echos from the 1st phase of the episode, which is like

1026
00:48:39.420 --> 00:48:43.260
asking questions about the practicality of time travel and about

1027
00:48:43.260 --> 00:48:46.199
you know, the moral responsibilities that you have as a time

1028
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:46.800
traveller.

1029
00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:50.280
And then here in the, quote, Doctor Who episode, part of the show

1030
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:52.559
like we're putting those lessons into practice.

1031
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:55.980
Nathan, you were saying there's another moment.

1032
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.639
Is that at the end where they check about history and...

1033
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:02.219
No, the 2 moments I was thinking of, and I just got them in the

1034
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:06.000
wrong order, the one is where Dow gets killed, you know, where the

1035
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:10.679
henchman gets killed, and then the you have to make the decision.

1036
00:49:10.739 --> 00:49:16.619
And so he gets her to be the doctor is what's happening with

1037
00:49:16.619 --> 00:49:16.920
that.

1038
00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:21.840
He gets her to be the doctor and learn what it is like to make

1039
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:22.739
that decision.

1040
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:28.800
And then at the very end, when she is delighted that he has saved

1041
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:30.059
the urchins.

1042
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:34.380
He says, no, no, you save the urchins.

1043
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:38.099
And so that big moral decision where you have to, you know, the

1044
00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:42.059
doctor can't sit around mooning about the fact that Spider has

1045
00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:45.300
died and he just has to get on with saving everyone else.

1046
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:48.900
He does that spectacularly well to the point where they end up in

1047
00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:52.079
a big giant mansion and eating sort of lots of food and all of

1048
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:52.739
that sort of thing.

1049
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:59.159
But he makes her involved in making those decisions.

1050
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:02.400
And I guess it's what you were saying, Melvin, about being a

1051
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:03.179
teacher.

1052
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:05.460
You know, now you watch.

1053
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:08.280
This is how we make the decisions and these are the kinds of

1054
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:09.059
decisions we make.

1055
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:14.460
But by the same token, Capaldi himself is also a student.

1056
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:17.519
He is learning from Bill and learning from his own experiences.

1057
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:20.159
I don't think it's a coincidence, and whether it's intentional or

1058
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:23.880
not, doesn't matter, because it does so closely echo that exact

1059
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:28.199
sequence of events in Kill the Moon, where he abandons Clara and

1060
00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:31.139
the astronaut and Courtney Woods to make those decisions for

1061
00:50:31.139 --> 00:50:31.500
themselves.

1062
00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:33.659
Here, he's like, I've done this.

1063
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:35.760
I can do, I can do this better.

1064
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:37.920
I can do this better for Bill.

1065
00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:42.179
Like, you know, and he doesn't make her necessarily kill the

1066
00:50:42.179 --> 00:50:42.780
lackey.

1067
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:45.539
He doesn't necessarily make her go and set the explosives.

1068
00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:48.480
You know, he goes and says the explosive while she goes and tells

1069
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:49.800
people to get people off the ice.

1070
00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:53.159
So he doesn't want a repeat of what happened with Clara, where

1071
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:58.019
Clara is making decisions recklessly and fecklessly, like in a lot

1072
00:50:58.019 --> 00:50:58.380
of ways.

1073
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:02.699
Like that there is, he wants to teach her in a way that will

1074
00:51:02.699 --> 00:51:07.380
maintain some of her essential billness, you know, to, in other

1075
00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:10.380
words, to allow her to make those decisions, but the right way and

1076
00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:11.159
for the right reasons.

1077
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:14.699
And when you say he's learning, he learned from Clara's reaction

1078
00:51:14.699 --> 00:51:17.940
and kill the moon, they are just foisting that responsibility onto

1079
00:51:17.940 --> 00:51:21.239
someone and then walking away is not the right way to deal with

1080
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:21.420
things.

1081
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:30.900
The other thing that we haven't talked that much about is the kind

1082
00:51:30.900 --> 00:51:32.760
of political allegory of satire.

1083
00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:36.900
So you've got a big monster that eats children and people and

1084
00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:40.440
turns them into fuel for, you know, the steel mills.

1085
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:41.940
What's that, Nullagry for?

1086
00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:43.139
I can imagine.

1087
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.400
And, you know, like all of that sort of fairly obvious and stuff.

1088
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:50.400
Simon would think it was too obvious.

1089
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:54.300
But I think it works incredibly well.

1090
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:58.860
And I think what's great about it is that it's not just an

1091
00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:03.780
allegory because at the end of the episode, we can't kill that

1092
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:06.719
monster, we have to free it as well.

1093
00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:12.059
The monster is being exploited every bit as much as the people fed

1094
00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:12.599
to it.

1095
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:14.460
It's very beast below, isn't it?

1096
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:16.019
Yeah, it is very beast below.

1097
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:20.699
And it is like a slight troping, like a turn on the image that we

1098
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:23.940
get at the beginning where Bill is asking, it's 1814, won't

1099
00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:24.780
someone enslave me?

1100
00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:28.380
Like that, you know, again, it's like a, it's a slight trope on

1101
00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:32.579
that idea that there is a, there is something in this episode that

1102
00:52:32.579 --> 00:52:33.239
is enslaved.

1103
00:52:33.300 --> 00:52:37.380
And Sutcliffe says that the fish has been that Tiny has been in

1104
00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:37.920
chains.

1105
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:41.159
And that I think we get like a sort of minor sort of explanation

1106
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:45.659
of why the Thames has frozen over since the 1600s or whatever, is

1107
00:52:45.659 --> 00:52:48.179
that the fish has been down there since there have been records.

1108
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:50.760
So it has been enchained all that time.

1109
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:56.940
And it's very well told that as well, like that discovery is not

1110
00:52:56.940 --> 00:52:58.139
hammered home to us.

1111
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:00.239
It's just we see the chains.

1112
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:04.320
You know, there couldn't be a better kind of visual image of

1113
00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:09.119
oppression than chaining something up and that's what we see.

1114
00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:11.760
And so the doctor breaks the chains.

1115
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:16.559
And again, you know, it's absolutely emblematic of what the doctor

1116
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:17.280
does.

1117
00:53:17.340 --> 00:53:22.079
I know it's about imperialism and capitalism and all of that sort

1118
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:27.000
of thing, but it's also just about any kind of oppression in the

1119
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:31.199
same way that, say, the savages is about. the race on some level

1120
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:35.340
as well, but it is also just about a group of people oppressing

1121
00:53:35.340 --> 00:53:39.420
another group and the doctor coming in and smashing that system

1122
00:53:39.420 --> 00:53:40.260
up.

1123
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:45.000
And I think, so this is the episode much, much more than smile

1124
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:50.219
where Bill learns and we learn what Doctor Who is about.

1125
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:53.820
And smile is visually stunning.

1126
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:58.199
It teaches us some of the genre things about the show in this era

1127
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:03.719
but it doesn't really have anything very interesting to say, I

1128
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:07.380
think, whereas this properly does.

1129
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:12.179
And it's very unusual to have a regency set piece.

1130
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:13.980
And I think that's one of the things that Bill is talking about

1131
00:54:13.980 --> 00:54:17.400
when she says that Regency England is a bit blacker than it is in

1132
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.280
the movies because, generally speaking, when there are popular

1133
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:24.179
fictions or popular films or adaptations, there are adaptations of

1134
00:54:24.179 --> 00:54:24.840
Jane Austen.

1135
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:29.280
Or, you know, Fannie Bernie at the outset, but like, you don't

1136
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:32.460
usually get the Mills kind of stuff, which is more of a William

1137
00:54:32.460 --> 00:54:36.000
Blake sort of, he's, you know, in this era as well, talking about

1138
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.579
that kind of stuff, but the popular fictions of that era that we

1139
00:54:38.579 --> 00:54:41.940
know are the polite society drawing room stuff.

1140
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.000
You know, we don't usually get the, you know, mill exploited

1141
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:50.400
children stuff until Dickens or Gaskell, like in the 1860s and 70s

1142
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:54.239
like this is, that is also a very clever thing that Sarah Dahr

1143
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:57.300
does in this episode is turn the lens away from the drawing

1144
00:54:57.300 --> 00:54:57.659
rooms.

1145
00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.179
The, you know, who is the resident of the drawing room in this

1146
00:55:00.179 --> 00:55:01.320
episode, it's Sutcliffe.

1147
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:04.860
Like, we're not living. in that world in this episode.

1148
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:08.519
We visit it, but it's a place that, and it's a place that we can

1149
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:12.900
you know, the fantasy of the show doesn't extend super, super far

1150
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:16.860
because while he does, you know, while Sutcliffe does fall and the

1151
00:55:16.860 --> 00:55:22.079
children do inherit the estate, it is Perry, who has had no lines

1152
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:24.360
in the episode because he is the one white boy.

1153
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:26.699
So you can't completely overturn the system.

1154
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:30.420
You can't let Kitty have the Kitty can't be the inheritor.

1155
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:32.699
So, you know, you can't completely overturned.

1156
00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:35.219
So again, this is another clever thing that Sarah Dollard has done

1157
00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:39.420
is show you ways that you can, I don't know, exploit a system that

1158
00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:42.059
is exploiting others, but only within certain bounds.

1159
00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:45.960
So, again, we're not in the RTD 2 era where, you know, it's it's a

1160
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:47.699
free-for-all Bridgerton fantasy world.

1161
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:51.480
Like we do have to obey some of the constraints of the era that

1162
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:51.900
we're in.

1163
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:57.599
I really like that Sarah brings all of this to the episode, whereas

1164
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:00.960
apparently Stevens one big question was, why is the Thames shaped

1165
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:01.260
like that?

1166
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:03.119
And that's where the monster came from.

1167
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:08.760
He'd been watching EastEnders.

1168
00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:16.019
I do wish the splash that goes on Bill and the doctor was bigger.

1169
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.380
It's pretty cheesy, isn't it?

1170
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:19.980
It's pretty great.

1171
00:56:19.980 --> 00:56:21.840
With a Sarah Jane adventures moment.

1172
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:27.300
It is also really great because there's another sort of echo of

1173
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:28.019
Kill the Moon.

1174
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:35.219
Remember the idea that if we kill the baby dragon, we look up at

1175
00:56:35.219 --> 00:56:38.579
the moon and it's a corpse for the rest of time.

1176
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:41.639
Every time we look up at the night sky, we're reminded that

1177
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.440
there's a corpse circling the earth.

1178
00:56:43.500 --> 00:56:48.119
And the doctor says to Bill, when he's trying to get her to make

1179
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:52.800
that decision, he says, if your future is predicated on the

1180
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:57.900
continued suffering of this creature, is it worth saving anyway?

1181
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.179
And she just says, you know, screw it.

1182
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.280
No, which I think is really great.

1183
00:57:02.340 --> 00:57:05.639
And that's another sort of historical fact that if you do a little

1184
00:57:05.639 --> 00:57:09.960
bit of digging is, in some way, tangentially related to that

1185
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:12.900
because we were talking earlier about, you know, the, I said that

1186
00:57:12.900 --> 00:57:16.199
you know, the slave trade was outlawed in England in 1807, it was

1187
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:20.280
finally outlawed, uh, throughout the empire in the 18, like, sort

1188
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:23.579
of 1833, and then finally, finally abolished, because that's how

1189
00:57:23.579 --> 00:57:25.260
you have to do it in 1838.

1190
00:57:25.500 --> 00:57:29.280
But the way it was abolished was that the government of the United

1191
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:32.340
Kingdom had to pay all of the slave owners, throughout the

1192
00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:35.039
colonies, and those, and they had to take out a giant loan in

1193
00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:35.639
order to do it.

1194
00:57:36.059 --> 00:57:38.639
That loan was not paid off until 2015.

1195
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:43.800
And so that, and so if you want to think about like, if the future

1196
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:47.940
of your country is predicated on the exploitation, you know, I

1197
00:57:47.940 --> 00:57:50.519
mean, you don't have to look any further than that to, like, to

1198
00:57:50.519 --> 00:57:52.199
have that sort of, like, ring in your ears.

1199
00:57:52.260 --> 00:57:56.340
I mean, you and I both live in new world countries where we look

1200
00:57:56.340 --> 00:57:59.579
around and are reminded of where all this stuff came from.

1201
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:00.900
Yes.

1202
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:05.340
What an absolutely mesmerising discussion of this episode and

1203
00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:07.980
trying things back to kill the moon and just the whole structure

1204
00:58:07.980 --> 00:58:10.679
in which you've all discussed this.

1205
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:11.940
So, 9.5?

1206
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.559
Oh, yeah, easily.

1207
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:18.420
Best episode of the season.

1208
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:44.460
Well, nearly, sir, that's all the time we've got.

1209
00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:48.119
She'll be sweet. will be back next week to watch David Souchet in

1210
00:58:48.119 --> 00:58:51.420
an adventure in millennial flat sharing in knock knock.

1211
00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:55.440
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1212
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:58.920
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1213
00:58:57.360 --> 00:59:01.800
com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to

1214
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:06.059
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1215
00:59:06.059 --> 00:59:09.960
500-year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1216
00:59:10.860 --> 00:59:14.880
Until next time, always remember to put a bit of coffee in your

1217
00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:16.679
tea, just to give it some flavour.

1218
00:59:16.739 --> 00:59:19.139
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1219
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:20.340
See you soon.

1220
00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:21.239
Good night.

1221
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:22.440
Good night, everyone.

1222
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:30.900
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd B. It'll be Nathan

1223
00:59:30.900 --> 00:59:33.000
Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and Melvin Penya.

1224
00:59:33.059 --> 00:59:35.219
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1225
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:39.000
This episode, the ones that make you want to raise your game, was

1226
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:43.139
recorded on the 11th of August 2024 and released on the 29th of

1227
00:59:43.139 --> 00:59:43.500
September.

1228
00:59:43.739 --> 00:59:47.579
With climate change being what it is, things like the Thames

1229
00:59:47.579 --> 00:59:49.320
Frostfarer, now a thing of the past.

1230
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:53.340
But we can still look forward to the Thames fire fair to be

1231
00:59:53.340 --> 00:59:57.360
celebrated in 2027 when the river itself catches fire for 6

1232
00:59:57.360 --> 00:59:57.659
months.

1233
00:59:57.719 --> 00:59:59.039
We'll see you there.

1234
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:06.900
Honestly, I've come to it with new eyes now.

1235
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.900
Like, I mean, I liked it, but I didn't put all those dots together

1236
01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:14.400
and certainly seeing all of the callbacks to and the growth in the

1237
01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:19.260
Capelli character and their whole relationship and how that's all

1238
01:00:19.260 --> 01:00:19.739
building.

1239
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:21.420
You made it perfectly clear.

1240
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:24.119
And I think it's a real strength of the episode.

1241
01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:28.619
And it's not, I said a few 30 minutes ago that it was like thin on

1242
01:00:28.619 --> 01:00:29.579
plot, but it's actually not.

1243
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:33.780
Yeah, I think I think that what it does is it has enough plot for

1244
01:00:33.780 --> 01:00:35.400
45 minutes.

1245
01:00:35.460 --> 01:00:40.079
It does have them tied up in episode three, which I thought was

1246
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:40.920
pretty delightful.

1247
01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:44.099
The old snake dance.

1248
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:51.000
But she kind of manages to, you know, the show is getting better

1249
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:55.440
at that as time goes on as it shakes itself off from the shackles

1250
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:57.239
of the four-part episode.

1251
01:00:57.300 --> 01:01:02.880
And so, um, a thing that classic who very rarely does, which is

1252
01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:06.599
this episode is about the relationship between our 2 leads

1253
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:07.500
essentially.

1254
01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:11.519
Like, that's not a thing that the show is interested in doing back

1255
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:13.800
in the classic era, and that's perfectly fine.

1256
01:01:13.860 --> 01:01:17.219
But now that it's back and it's doing modern TV, I think it's a

1257
01:01:17.219 --> 01:01:18.239
thing that it does really well.

1258
01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:23.760
And I think that this manages more than smile last week to have an

1259
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:28.800
interesting plot that goes beyond just the 2 leads getting to know

1260
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:32.519
one another and the version of the plot with the 2 leads getting

1261
01:01:32.519 --> 01:01:35.219
to know one another is so much better than it is in smile.

1262
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:37.079
Like, I think it's just a triumph.

1263
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:41.099
There's definitely enough plot here, but you know, there is more

1264
01:01:41.099 --> 01:01:43.619
to an episode than plot, and there is a lot going on in this

1265
01:01:43.619 --> 01:01:44.159
episode, I think.

1266
01:01:44.219 --> 01:01:46.980
And also smile is sort of, I'm sorry.

1267
01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:50.400
I was going to say, smile is also sort of easing you into or

1268
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:54.000
easing Bill into being off-world, whereas the pilot, you know

1269
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:56.760
again, she's writing papers, you know, who, I feel like that

1270
01:01:56.760 --> 01:02:00.719
episode maybe takes six, 8 months because, I mean, she writes lots

1271
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:01.559
and lots of papers.

1272
01:02:01.619 --> 01:02:04.679
You can't do that very quickly, but like, you know, he is...

1273
01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:05.280
Yep.

1274
01:02:05.340 --> 01:02:08.039
He's preparing her for for this.

1275
01:02:08.099 --> 01:02:10.679
And smile, I feel, is a 1st step.

1276
01:02:10.739 --> 01:02:11.820
It is a simpler episode.

1277
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:15.179
Yeah, there's not as much going on, but I feel like it is a way to

1278
01:02:15.179 --> 01:02:19.619
ease both the audience and Bill into a larger world.

1279
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:22.320
And again, like one of the great things, I may have mentioned it

1280
01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:25.019
earlier, um, or maybe I was just thinking it in my head.

1281
01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:26.579
Uh, it amounts to the same thing.

1282
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:29.400
Bill, at the beginning of Smile, one of, I think my favourite

1283
01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:33.659
moment of that episode is, at the very beginning, Capaldi asks

1284
01:02:33.659 --> 01:02:36.300
where do you want to go, past or future, and she goes, future.

1285
01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:38.159
And he says, why do you want to go to the future?

1286
01:02:38.219 --> 01:02:39.599
She says, why do you think?

1287
01:02:39.659 --> 01:02:41.159
I want to see if it's happy.

1288
01:02:41.219 --> 01:02:44.880
Like, there's something really, like, earnest and joyful and

1289
01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:49.139
hopeful and optimistic and, uh, uh, again, very, very genuine

1290
01:02:49.139 --> 01:02:52.619
about Bill's outlook and to have her go into an episode called

1291
01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:53.159
Smile.

1292
01:02:53.219 --> 01:02:57.119
Like, again, it's, it is simple, but it is, you know, it prepares

1293
01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:01.320
us and her for this episode, which is more complicated, more

1294
01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:05.340
layered, more, um, yeah.

1295
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:06.719
Yeah.

1296
01:03:06.780 --> 01:03:11.219
No, no, I mean, I, I think I, I compared it last week to both

1297
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:15.000
space babies and at the end of the world.

1298
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:18.719
And the end of the world, which is magnificent, you know, in all

1299
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:24.059
sorts of ways and, you know, an absolute triumph, um, has a very

1300
01:03:24.059 --> 01:03:26.280
very thin plot, like paper fin.

1301
01:03:26.340 --> 01:03:27.059
It's just...

1302
01:03:27.059 --> 01:03:27.900
Thin and gorgeous.

1303
01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:28.860
Thin and gorgeous.

1304
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:30.119
It's just Cassandra.

1305
01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:33.900
You know, doing an insurance scam.

1306
01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:35.219
There's really nothing to it at all.

1307
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:44.219
Um, whereas, you know, this, you know, whereas um, both smile

1308
01:03:44.219 --> 01:03:48.780
whereas this manages to do something very, very similar, I think

1309
01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:52.980
it does the bulk of the getting to know what Doctor Who is for

1310
01:03:52.980 --> 01:03:53.579
this season.

1311
01:03:53.699 --> 01:03:57.300
It does it very similar in an episode that is not trivial, I

1312
01:03:57.300 --> 01:03:57.539
think.

1313
01:03:57.900 --> 01:04:00.960
I think you're right, Melvin, by saying this is much more

1314
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:01.559
layered.

1315
01:04:01.619 --> 01:04:06.780
And there are lays to this which are just, you can gloss over if

1316
01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:09.539
you're not, if you're not really in the moment.

1317
01:04:09.659 --> 01:04:11.400
Like, you know, if you're not really thinking about it, you can

1318
01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:14.519
just look at it and go, oh, yes, it's, it's a nice episode, but it

1319
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:15.659
has got that layering.

1320
01:04:15.659 --> 01:04:20.099
And, and of course, it also has no doll serving tea coffee, which

1321
01:04:20.099 --> 01:04:22.380
is, you know, extremely important.

1322
01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:26.519
It's a deceptively strong episode, much like the arc that we were

1323
01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:27.599
talking about.

1324
01:04:27.659 --> 01:04:32.519
So let's talk about the end because we forgot last week to talk

1325
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:35.219
about the cliffhanger and this one ends on a cliffhanger as well.

1326
01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:40.440
And so it looks like we've decided that the doctor's going to go

1327
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:40.980
travelling.

1328
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:42.300
Is that right?

1329
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:47.099
Because, and it's a great callback because there's the, the guy

1330
01:04:47.099 --> 01:04:54.239
the, there's the pie man, um, and the doctor learns the, the trick

1331
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:55.260
the coin trick.

1332
01:04:55.320 --> 01:04:59.940
And then he uses the coin trick to manipulate nut all into letting

1333
01:04:59.940 --> 01:05:02.039
him go off world from now on.

1334
01:05:02.099 --> 01:05:03.659
So he's clearly doing that.

1335
01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:08.400
And now we're being and now we're being made more curious about

1336
01:05:08.400 --> 01:05:09.780
the vault at the end.

1337
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:13.739
If there's anything to say about that.

1338
01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:16.619
Well, it's just the ongoing plot of the season, what is in the

1339
01:05:16.619 --> 01:05:17.099
vault?

1340
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

1341
01:05:17.940 --> 01:05:20.940
And it's just there to remind us without sort of.

1342
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:23.820
Yeah, I was going to say.

1343
01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:28.619
Yeah, I was going to say the thing about the arc tacked on here at

1344
01:05:28.619 --> 01:05:32.159
the end is even if you were popping in and out as a new viewer

1345
01:05:32.159 --> 01:05:34.679
watching, you know, this is your 1st episode of Doctor Who.

1346
01:05:34.739 --> 01:05:39.420
That's a very nice, easy, like, entry into the arc as well.

1347
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:41.340
Like, you don't need to know anything else about it.

1348
01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:43.679
Because Nordo tells you everything you need to know.

1349
01:05:43.739 --> 01:05:47.699
Your oath, the vault, you know, it's like, it's it's all there.

1350
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:52.079
And this is like in terms of the, uh, you know, Moffatt sort of, uh

1351
01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:54.300
arc, uh, tendencies.

1352
01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:57.000
They they do tend to feel a little bit forced from time to time.

1353
01:05:57.059 --> 01:06:00.000
And I really like the way that this one is just sort of feels

1354
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:02.099
organically part of the part of the episode.

1355
01:06:02.340 --> 01:06:06.300
We said on the pilot that there were parallels with the Pertwee

1356
01:06:06.300 --> 01:06:10.320
era, with the doctor kind of being in an institution on earth and

1357
01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:13.260
getting a new companion, having a sidekick, you know, the

1358
01:06:13.260 --> 01:06:16.320
brigadier or Nardol interchange as you want.

1359
01:06:16.380 --> 01:06:20.760
Um, but that would also reflect that in the in the Pertwee era, the

1360
01:06:20.760 --> 01:06:24.000
doctor starts to move away from Earth more and more.

1361
01:06:24.059 --> 01:06:27.119
And so that's what's happening. what happens after this episode as

1362
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:27.300
well.

1363
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:31.199
And I think it's good that like what makes this a good cliffhanger

1364
01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:34.679
in the sense that it's a what's going to happen now, Cliffhanger

1365
01:06:34.679 --> 01:06:39.960
is that the doctor makes the decision to go off world now after 70

1366
01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:45.840
years and as he makes that decision, the vault is seen hotting up

1367
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:49.019
you know, suddenly becoming more active.

1368
01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:52.079
And so I think that sort of, that's pretty interesting.

1369
01:06:52.139 --> 01:06:55.500
And knowing that, can we give spoilers?

1370
01:06:55.559 --> 01:06:59.760
Yeah, yeah, knowing that it's missy in the vault, has dulled it to

1371
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:01.199
the 1st time when we weren't sure.

1372
01:07:01.260 --> 01:07:02.699
And actually, the mystery was quite thick.

1373
01:07:02.820 --> 01:07:04.440
It's like, what is behind that door?

1374
01:07:04.500 --> 01:07:05.280
Yeah.

1375
01:07:05.340 --> 01:07:07.320
It turns out Michelle Gomez?

1376
01:07:07.380 --> 01:07:09.119
Yeah, which awesome.

1377
01:07:09.960 --> 01:07:12.000
Open my front door.

1378
01:07:12.059 --> 01:07:17.340
Yeah, and it also gives you a little bit more clue into Nardol's

1379
01:07:17.340 --> 01:07:20.519
character because he tends to be all over the map in his 1st sort

1380
01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:25.260
of 3 or 4 appearances, but here he is very decisive and very sort

1381
01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:29.280
of like, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, forceful with Missy.

1382
01:07:29.340 --> 01:07:31.260
I mean, we know it's Missy through the door.

1383
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:33.780
So we know that whatever he has gone through, even though he

1384
01:07:33.780 --> 01:07:37.500
didn't ask to be put back together, as he says in here in thin

1385
01:07:37.500 --> 01:07:37.860
ice.

1386
01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.619
Um, that he is that he is part of this team.

1387
01:07:40.679 --> 01:07:43.800
And, uh, you know, it's a character that I, I really have a lot of

1388
01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:44.280
time for.

1389
01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:47.219
And, you know, had sort of, you know, sort of forgotten about

1390
01:07:47.219 --> 01:07:51.360
until revisiting this season, uh, and a couple of, the previous

1391
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:54.719
couple of specials getting ready for this is like, I was just sort

1392
01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:58.679
of forgotten about him and his character and the, the fact that

1393
01:07:58.679 --> 01:08:02.159
you know, we don't know how long he's been with Capaldi, you know

1394
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:04.980
they, they could have had, you know, big finish box set after big

1395
01:08:04.980 --> 01:08:08.039
finish box set together because, you know, even in the 1st few

1396
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:11.280
episodes of this season, the way that he acts and interacts with

1397
01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:15.119
seems to, you know, very, you know, based on what scene they're

1398
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:15.300
in.

1399
01:08:15.360 --> 01:08:17.880
Like, he can be very aggressive towards the doctor.

1400
01:08:17.939 --> 01:08:20.399
He can be very sort of it's not my problem.

1401
01:08:20.460 --> 01:08:22.739
He says in, you know, I think it's the pilot, you know, I'm not

1402
01:08:22.739 --> 01:08:26.279
going to serve tea to that human or whatever when Bill joins up

1403
01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:29.579
like, he can be all over the place, but you get a sort of, you get

1404
01:08:29.579 --> 01:08:32.760
a firmer sense of who he is based, you know, once you know that

1405
01:08:32.760 --> 01:08:33.779
that's missy in the vault.

1406
01:08:33.899 --> 01:08:39.239
Well, it's only a scant 8 episodes until Missy will correctly dub

1407
01:08:39.239 --> 01:08:40.920
him comedy and or exposition.

1408
01:08:40.979 --> 01:08:43.199
Comedy relief and or exposition.

1409
01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:48.239
I think I think we have an out.

1410
01:08:48.300 --> 01:08:49.680
I think we have an out.

1411
01:08:49.739 --> 01:08:52.079
So I think we're good.

1412
01:08:52.140 --> 01:09:00.779
Yeah, the, I think that was like, I think we decided early on, like

1413
01:09:00.779 --> 01:09:06.659
I think I might have said in the pilot that that Nadol is the 2nd

1414
01:09:06.659 --> 01:09:12.359
longest serving companion of the doctor has been with him at least

1415
01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:13.619
70 2nd handles.

1416
01:09:13.680 --> 01:09:13.859
Yeah.

1417
01:09:13.979 --> 01:09:18.899
Yeah, 2nd only to handles as companion of a doctor.

1418
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:22.020
And I wonder where there's a difference in the way he plays it in

1419
01:09:22.020 --> 01:09:24.119
like, he's much grumpier.

1420
01:09:24.180 --> 01:09:32.039
He's decades older, in the pilot than he is in, um, uh, what's the

1421
01:09:32.039 --> 01:09:32.699
what?

1422
01:09:32.699 --> 01:09:33.779
Dr. Mysterio.

1423
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:36.539
Oh, yeah, Dr. Mysterio.

1424
01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:37.260
Yeah, remember?

1425
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:40.260
Remember when he goes into the thing and goes, ooh, elephant, and

1426
01:09:40.260 --> 01:09:41.279
then runs over a word?

1427
01:09:42.420 --> 01:09:45.960
Like he's and he's asking for the little boys' room and stuff.

1428
01:09:46.020 --> 01:09:50.159
Like he is much more comic relief, isn't even than he is later.

1429
01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:52.739
But he also has sort of very tender moments.

1430
01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:54.420
Like, they're at the very end of Mysterio.

1431
01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:58.260
Uh, he's saying to the the Lucy character.

1432
01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:01.560
He's like, he's very, and it's, God, that, that scene thinking

1433
01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:04.260
about that makes me, makes me, uh, uh, well up as well.

1434
01:10:04.319 --> 01:10:07.500
He's like, he's very silly, but he's very sad also.

1435
01:10:07.560 --> 01:10:12.779
Like, I love, I wish we could have had more of that, more of that

1436
01:10:12.779 --> 01:10:16.920
Nardo, more of that, like, that, that turn on a dime, and he's, you

1437
01:10:16.920 --> 01:10:19.739
know, somehow, it says something extremely profound, like

1438
01:10:19.739 --> 01:10:21.720
something very insightful about the doctor.

1439
01:10:21.779 --> 01:10:25.260
I mean, spoiler, I think we'll get that towards the end of the

1440
01:10:25.260 --> 01:10:25.500
season.

1441
01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:28.500
I think the role that he plays in the final 2 parts really

1442
01:10:28.500 --> 01:10:29.159
captures that.

1443
01:10:29.220 --> 01:10:30.119
So good.

1444
01:10:30.180 --> 01:10:33.539
I can't wait for that. is so amazing.

1445
01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:35.159
No, I can't wait either.

1446
01:10:35.220 --> 01:10:38.460
I've been enjoying the season I've just watched the Ice Warriors

1447
01:10:38.460 --> 01:10:39.239
one and I love that.

1448
01:10:39.300 --> 01:10:40.619
I love that one.

1449
01:10:40.619 --> 01:10:41.159
I love that one.

1450
01:10:41.220 --> 01:10:45.359
I do want to smack Mark Gadis about the head when we do that.

1451
01:10:45.420 --> 01:10:46.680
Oh, you can't do that.

1452
01:10:46.739 --> 01:10:48.300
I like eaters of light.

1453
01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:48.840
How about that?

1454
01:10:48.899 --> 01:10:49.920
Spoiler alert.

1455
01:10:49.979 --> 01:10:50.819
I'm the only one.

1456
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:51.659
Oh, I'm ready.

1457
01:10:51.659 --> 01:10:52.920
I like ears of light as well.

1458
01:10:52.979 --> 01:10:56.579
I'm ready and willing to...

1459
01:10:56.640 --> 01:10:59.100
They could have made Nardolan elephants a running theme of the

1460
01:10:59.100 --> 01:10:59.340
season.

1461
01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:01.140
In the 1st scene of this episode, you could come out of the tiles

1462
01:11:01.140 --> 01:11:02.399
and go, ooh, elephant.

1463
01:11:02.699 --> 01:11:04.800
Get that elephant.

1464
01:11:04.859 --> 01:11:09.000
See, in fact, the elephant in the ark is better than the elephant

1465
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:09.899
in thin ice, right?

1466
01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:12.479
Because the elephant in the ark that is actually there.

1467
01:11:12.539 --> 01:11:15.600
And you get that shot reverse shot where you sort of think, oh

1468
01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:18.659
stock footage of an elephant and then Dodo just walks up to it and

1469
01:11:18.659 --> 01:11:20.340
they're in the same shot and she touches it.

1470
01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:23.819
You don't get the big close-up of Dodo going, oh, look at you then

1471
01:11:23.819 --> 01:11:25.260
which would have only improved this.

1472
01:11:25.500 --> 01:11:27.239
What did I say?

1473
01:11:27.300 --> 01:11:28.260
Didn't I say dodo?

1474
01:11:28.260 --> 01:11:29.100
I can't remember.

1475
01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:29.579
You did.

1476
01:11:29.699 --> 01:11:30.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's stupid.

1477
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:34.560
My ears are always alert. mention it's of data.

1478
01:11:34.619 --> 01:11:36.359
Have we had other elephants in Doctor Who?

1479
01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:39.000
No, I don't think we have.

1480
01:11:39.060 --> 01:11:43.380
Is there one in Animal and Botanic in the other...

1481
01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:44.880
One of those...

1482
01:11:44.939 --> 01:11:48.000
They pull open little drawing out as an elephant.

1483
01:11:48.659 --> 01:11:50.939
There's been various trunks.

1484
01:11:52.439 --> 01:11:56.579
What about the doctor saying that it's not a wrestling match

1485
01:11:56.579 --> 01:11:58.439
unless...

1486
01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:04.140
Oh, unless it's in 0 grade. with tentacles and magic spells.

1487
01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:05.640
Oh my god, I love it. so good.

1488
01:12:05.699 --> 01:12:08.340
And it's the way, but it's the, if you go back to that scene, it's

1489
01:12:08.340 --> 01:12:09.840
the way he says magic spells.

1490
01:12:09.899 --> 01:12:12.720
There's just like something, you should like melt a little bit

1491
01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:15.720
because he's like, and magic and magic spells.

1492
01:12:15.779 --> 01:12:17.579
Like there's something so charming about that.

1493
01:12:18.479 --> 01:12:21.779
I also think the fact that when he's telling the children the

1494
01:12:21.779 --> 01:12:24.300
story, it's about something that someone that comes along and cuts

1495
01:12:24.300 --> 01:12:25.020
their thumbs off.

1496
01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:28.079
They suck their thumbs like it's horrible.

1497
01:12:28.140 --> 01:12:29.640
It's inappropriate.

1498
01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:33.960
Heinrich Hoffman, it's a poem, like I said, from 18.

1499
01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:38.520
I think it was published in German in 1845 and the, the, the child

1500
01:12:38.520 --> 01:12:41.579
that's being lectured to in that story that gets his thumbs cut

1501
01:12:41.579 --> 01:12:42.659
off is named Conrad.

1502
01:12:42.720 --> 01:12:44.819
So a nice little shout out to our pal.