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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 15:56:33

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that involves a lot of day drinking.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Melvin.

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Well, it's the 4th of February 1814, and at the heart of the British Empire is a massive sprawling monster that consumes human life at scale and converts it into massive profits for the wealthy.

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And also, there's this eel thing chained up in the Thames.

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It's thin ice.

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Alright, I'm gonna lay my card straight on the table, and I think this is a top tier episode, and perhaps one of the best companion introductions in the history of the show.

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What do you think, Melbourne?

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Absolutely.

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I agree across the board?

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I don't think I'd watched season 10 since maybe maybe a year or 2 after it went out and revisiting it now.

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Bill is such a breath of fresh air.

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Capaldi's doctor is almost a new, a new character.

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He has such a new lease of life, a new approach to life.

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Uh, and Bill is a big part of that.

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And to have him being a university professor, which is something in a previous life, I was, means it's really wonderful to revisit that now.

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Uh, it's really refreshing.

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What did you keep in your vault, Melvin?

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Mostly action figures.

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Wouldn't expect anything less.

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Hey, I really enjoy these 1st 3 episodes of the season for the character building of Bill and the relationship between her and the doctor and especially in this episode and I think by next episode they are fully formed.

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And I think that's one of the biggest strengths.

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I'm perhaps not as enamoured with this as what you are, Nathan as a top tier.

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I think it's enjoyable and good.

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I do think the main villain is a bit one dimensional, if I can put it like that, but that doesn't detract from it.

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Like I'm, here we go.

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It's a 7.5 to an 8 out of 10.

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So just wait.

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Just wait.

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Which is just wait until the end.

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See what we can do.

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See what we can do.

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But I think it's better than last week's episode, right?

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which I think is the weakest of the fall thus far, but I do like it and I really like the refreshing take that the character of Bill brings to the show.

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I think too often with companion introductions.

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We're just used to companions reacting like a Doctor Who companion to people dying.

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Like no reaction, really.

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And we just accept it.

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And here she's really challenging things.

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And it's initially, I think, quite not off-putting, but I kind of going, oh, oh, I hadn't thought about that and it's actually very real.

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Yeah, I think I'm a Todd on this one.

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I think this is a top tier mid-tier episode at the top of the mid-tier.

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I think it's really well written and really, it's good mostly for what Bill brings.

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I think the focus on Bill and Bill's reactions is something that sets the episode apart.

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And also what it is, is just superbly confidently made.

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It's an excellent production and you can't oversell the importance of that in Doctor Who.

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I think we'll come back to Beale in a minute because I think she's the backbone of the main plot of the story.

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The story is about introducing Bill not just to the genre, but to this particular TV program.

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In a way that we didn't really do that much of last week.

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But let's talk about how it looks because I'm astounded by how amazing it looks.

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I've just come from watching it again.

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And, you know, there's a lot of elements being stitched together and stuff, but somehow it just works perfectly.

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And like that shot at the beginning.

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You know, we move.

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We didn't talk about this last week, but we recap the ending of last week with the elephant on the Tam.

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Well, actually, that scene was stolen from the start of thin ice because it was...

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Yeah, of course.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But then we move up to the bridge, and we're looking out, and Capoldi's in front of that backdrop, and there's no hint that he's been matted in or anything like that.

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It's so it's so seamless.

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It's so flawless.

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I think what they've mastered by this point in the show's history, and the new show's history, is being able to stitch together things seamlessly, as you said.

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So that there's just, there's a couple of crucial shots where everything's mattered and composited together, which totally sell it.

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You wouldn't believe that some of it was blue screens.

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Some of it was a set in studio, some of it was on location.

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It's just so easily put together that you absolutely buy that you're on the Thames at a frost fair in 1814.

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And this is a regular episode.

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This isn't a banner episode.

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It's not Christmas, although it could be.

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One of the other things about the Moffat era is that where, you know, RTD seems very comfortable both in contemporary times and in like, for strangely, the 51st century.

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The Mafa era has a real confidence and comfort in Victorian times.

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Like, uh, see deep breath or any of the the patternoster gang episodes.

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Like, there's something that's my whalehouse as well. really enjoy that.

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So it brings something to this era for me.

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Yeah, and there's something to the, again, part of the look of the episode is, I feel like that there's a great comfort with that.

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And as far as I remember, the bridge set, the fair set was entirely built for this episode, wasn't it?

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So I don't know that there's actually any compositing in the bridge scenes at all, is there?

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There's some location work that we do see.

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But I think the bridge thing is a set.

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And when we come down from the bridge onto the ice and we see the bridge, like I think that's fairly clearly a set as well.

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But it is a very accomplished set.

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And I think that the director whose name is Bill Anderson.

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What's he done?

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He did this recording block, didn't he?

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He does the next episode.

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He does.

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Yeah, so he does this a knock knock.

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But, I mean, even last week we commented on how well that building was matted into the barley field or whatever on that planet, you know, and then we had characters in the foreground that were just sort of seamlessly in there.

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This guy has just managed, you know, he just, he normally does tag it and stuff, like, or Mr. Selfridge.

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I don't even know what that is.

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Something to do with white goods.

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I'm not sure, but he's just a normal TV director, but this is such an incredibly confident production.

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It's what the program has got really good at.

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So you go back to the Russell T. Davies era and you will have one or 2 glamour shots which sell things.

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So you'll have the wide shot to start where it's, you know, a market on, what's that planet in turn left?

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Shan Shan.

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And it will come down and then that's the last you see of the world.

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You're in a set.

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Whereas what they've got really good at is just kind of using the occasional shot very cleverly put together and very expensive, which sells the entire thing.

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And Series 10 is full of moments like that.

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They use their budget so well now.

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Everything's on the screen.

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Even the big dumb rubber monster looks amazing.

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Are you still talking about Queen Victoria?

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But don't you think?

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Like as it goes past the camera at the end.

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Oh yeah, I think that looks good.

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Perhaps not as sold when it's completely underwater, but I love all the old style diving equipment. and all that.

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I love all that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I probably would have preferred terror of the Zygon style stop motion.

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With a terrier's head.

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One of the great things about this episode and that sort of idea of setting and place is the sort of, I want to say that Capaldi's doctor has, at least in this episode, there's a concentration and a focus on using what's about to solve the issues to solve the problems.

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You know, he's got the Sonic and whatever, but what you were saying about the diving costumes.

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Like, it's almost as though he has, uh, because I went and did some a little bit of research and the diving costumes that they used weren't available, weren't useable, weren't, uh, weren't in practice until sort of the 1830s, the mid 1830s.

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And, you know, there's the scene where he's talking to the urchins and reading them the poem about Conrad, the thumb sucker.

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And yeah, that's 1845.

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So what I'm assuming is that he sort of like river has that hidden liquor cabinet in the in the console room, that Capaldi has sort of a cabinet of anachronistic trinkets that he, you know, can pull out at a moment's notice because he didn't get the diving bell there.

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I asked my head cannon is that he went back to the TARDIS, rolled that thing out to use it for this particular adventure, which I just find. find that charming.

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And I wish there were more, that there was more Doctor Who like that, where you're sort of constrained by what is available in that, not necessarily in that particular era, but in that historical context.

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I also think too, like we commented on the recent episode Rogue and said that it was really nice to have a doctor who dressed up to go into the past again.

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But it was fairly recent, wasn't it?

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And having Capaldi.

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Like Capaldi's look is perfect for this and I love Bill's outfit.

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I wonder if the idea of the frost and having everything just slightly kind of muted and white and stuff in the background helps to sell it.

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So we don't get very crispy images of what's going on necessarily.

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And often you get, just get the doctor in the, in the hat against what is a white background and we can't quite see what's going on because of the mist and stuff. it sells it so well.

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There's those scenes of sort of the people disappearing into the mist, which is just basically a warrior's gate style white.

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But because you've just, like we were saying earlier, you've just had those shots in and amongst the tents on the frost fair, and a well chosen higher shot, which kind of shows you the entire thing with some bits matted in.

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That's all you need.

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You can just go to a corner of the studio and have someone disappearing into mist.

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Let's talk about Bill, because she's obviously the centre of it, and this is a companion introduction story.

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And when we 1st met Bill in the terrible friend from the future, in the terrible friend from the future, in her role as Bill, like that was kind of terrible, but she was presented to someone who questions the doctor, and in particular, she's familiar with the genre that she's in, and so she does.

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And I guess, I guess Ruby Sunday will do something fairly similar later, but she does the thing about what are the rules of time travel.

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I think even Martha does that too, doesn't she?

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Well, there was a genre fan.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So she's a genre fan.

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So she knows about, you know, the sound of thunder and treading on butterflies and we have that conversation about Pete.

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And my theory is Pete is Pete McTie because...

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Because Sarah Dollard and Pete McTie know one another.

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Oh, absolutely.

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And I think, yeah, they both work together on Neighbours and both living in Britain at the time.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So I think that's Pete.

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And so we've got all of that discussion about the genre stuff and how time travel works and that's how the episode ends.

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Isn't it where Bill goes back and checks what impact they've had on history and stuff.

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And one of the things, and I think that this anticipates what happens later, because the questions that she starts to ask after that are much more interesting and are much more central to who the doctor is as a character and what sort of show we have.

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And that's what I think is brilliant about this episode.

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You start with a companion whose shtick, like part of her sort of one paragraph description is she asks questions about sort of science fiction-y things that are happening, but instead you have her ask much, much more important questions.

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I think that's great.

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But in that conversation about genre, for me, time travel is always a moral problem in Doctor Who, because of the idea that people with sort of extreme genre brain think that it's immoral to change the past.

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And what you get is Bill saying, you know, any decision I make now could affect the future.

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And the doctor says, yes, it's like that all the time.

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Just get on with it.

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Any decision you make at any time could affect the entirety of the future.

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Just get on with it.

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And I think that's such a brilliant way of kind of dealing with it.

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Well, one of the things about Bill's questions is that they aren't just the standard like 80s Doctor Who companion.

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What is this doctor?

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What does this mean, doctor?

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What is that, doctor?

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Like, she's been prepped for this. you know, go back to the pilot.

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You know, he makes her serving apprenticeship.

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You know, he makes her write papers.

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Again, I'm thinking about my own university professorial background and like the fact that he more or less recruits her to time travel with him because he says in the pilot, you know, when I when I say something that's confusing, you smile.

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You know, you're the only person who smiles.

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And so she's asking, not only asking genre questions, but she's asking practical questions.

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Like, this is what the one of the things that that university setting allows you is this almost Socratic relationship between Bill and the doctor, where she's asking, he is presenting a problem.

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She asks a question.

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He answers it.

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She asks for clarification, and then they immediately put it into practice.

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Like, I love that.

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I don't know that we've ever had that approach in Doctor Who before.

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As much as Ace used to call the 7th doctor professor, like this explicitly tutorial relationship is it's really new and it's really refreshing.

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I think it's, um, it's a shame in many ways, the historical kind of the flow of Doctor Who, that we got a fairly hard reboot of the show for series 11, which overshadowed the lovely soft reboot that it got for series 10.

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I think the pilot and these 3 episodes up to thin ice are such a lovely dropping on point for Doctor Who, where you could just, you could come in and find the entire length and breadth of the show in these 3 episodes with all the questions you needed answered and bills are really good kind of lead through that.

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Yeah.

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And that's one of the follow-ups.

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I was going to say when Nathan, you were saying earlier about this being a sort of top tier episode of Doctor Who.

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This is one that I never hear talked about when people say, what is a good new to who episode?

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What would you show to someone who had never seen Doctor Who, where they could step on and get what it's about?

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And this episode, from start to finish, and a lot of the, a lot of it because of that question, answer, you know, theory and practice, you know, mess up and then try again, uh, uh, the format of the, of the way that their relationship works through this episode.

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This is a perfect episode for that, which, you know, the 1st time I rewatched it for this recording, that was the thing that really stuck out on me is how does no one talk about this as an episode you would use to introduce someone to Doctor Who.

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Yeah.

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It's very light on law as well, which I think helps too.

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Like, it's unusual that there are no aliens in it at all, and even tiny, the sea monster seems to be native to Earth, or at least the doctor says it's immaterial.

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We don't where it comes from.

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I think we might be asking ourselves the wrong question about the quality of this episode.

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The question is, is it as good as the 1st time Doctor Who had an elephant in it?

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The answer is, yes, it is.

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It's certainly less racist than the 1st time that Doctor Who had an elephant in it.

195
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And there's no security kitchen either.

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No, which is such a shame.

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It is a shame.

198
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That's negative, yes.

199
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But it's, you're saying it's less racist.

200
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I think it's really important that it does bring up racism.

201
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Yeah, for Bill's character and her concern over that.

202
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And certainly the doctor's reaction when he's, you know, going to be very diplomatic and then punches that charming.

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He was going to be charming.

204
00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:06.180
Charming. charming.

205
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:09.779
And then he punches Lord Sutcliffe in the face, which is just a brilliant moment.

206
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:16.859
But just the way they are willing to talk about things like, you know, the doctor says, um, history's a whitewash.

207
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.339
Yeah.

208
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:25.680
It's great as well in that when Bill mentions slavery, there isn't a massive discussion on it, Capaldi does it all in one look.

209
00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:29.579
And it's a really affecting, look, shows how great of an actor he is.

210
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:37.920
In fact, you remember how Martha's concerns in the Shakespeare code get dismissed.

211
00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:41.099
And so she says, look, I'm not exactly white.

212
00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.519
It's 1605 or something like that or 1599.

213
00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:45.240
I can't remember.

214
00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:46.140
It's around about then.

215
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:52.259
And the doctor says, just stroll about like you own the place, like Sylvester McCoy does in Silver Nemesis.

216
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.299
And you kind of think, well, that's great.

217
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.299
Doctor, but you're a white guy.

218
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:03.539
You know, like, like, uh, you're not addressing this issue and that issue then doesn't come up.

219
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:12.119
There's, you know, the sort of comedy archaic language used to describe Martha and her response to that and she...

220
00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:13.319
Something about the Queen of Africa?

221
00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:14.220
Well, yeah, yeah.

222
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:16.200
Like a more lady and stuff like that.

223
00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:27.480
But Martha's a response to that is great, and Freeman does a really great job, kind of not seeming too upset by that, but also going, like, what the hell even is this, which I think is really good.

224
00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:29.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

225
00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:37.500
But this is one scenario where he could, he could actually explain it away with a line because technically the slave trade was abolished in Britain in 1807.

226
00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:41.519
So he could say, I mean, there's literally no danger of her being taken.

227
00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:46.980
I mean, there aren't like in the in the US for the next like 75 or 80 years runaway slave laws.

228
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.259
Like, that kind of thing doesn't exist in Britain.

229
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:53.099
I mean the slave, slave trade was abolished in the colonies not until like the 1830s.

230
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.559
So, I mean, it is technically still a thing.

231
00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:59.880
But there's nothing specifically for her to worry about in this moment at this time.

232
00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.940
But he doesn't dismiss it at all.

233
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:03.839
Exactly.

234
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.119
And he says that, yes, it is dangerous.

235
00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:27.420
But then when I think it's really interesting is a decision that the show makes at this point, because you've got an issue where if you're going to have stories set in England's past, then the kind of England that you've got to show, you have to make a decision about what kind of England you're going to show.

236
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:35.880
And, you know, you're in London, which helps, which is more cosmopolitan and more racially diverse than other places in England.

237
00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:42.180
But are you going to put out a casting call for extras and specify that they're all going to be white?

238
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:42.960
You know?

239
00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:50.160
And so what the doctor says is in universe that that history's a whitewash.

240
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:51.059
And that's clearly true.

241
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:52.740
And you think about Doctor Who's history.

242
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.200
Like, let's think about the hinge cliff era.

243
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:56.460
Let's play this on hard mode.

244
00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.680
It's the Hingecliff era. everyone loves it.

245
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:00.000
It's one of the show's high points.

246
00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:02.400
It has virtually no women in it.

247
00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:04.500
And story after story after story.

248
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.900
It's telling stories of white men.

249
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:13.799
And that's in no way representative of the population of England at the time, and it's a deliberate choice that the show is making.

250
00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:19.079
And it's not making it because of some sort of conscious sense of white supremacy.

251
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:24.180
It's just making it because they're too lazy to think about it or it doesn't, do you know what I mean?

252
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:29.339
It's still culpable. still a problem, but it's not as malicious as it might be, I think.

253
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:31.920
Here the show has to make a different decision.

254
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:39.660
And so what it does is it just has the doctor say, yes, things are less white than you remember.

255
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:41.400
And think about the way Bill puts it.

256
00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:45.539
It's Regency, England, it's much blacker than it is in the movies.

257
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:50.339
Like she approaches it from the point of view of someone whose genre savvy as well.

258
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:57.720
And so we're saying here that on this TV program, this is what the past is going to look like from now on.

259
00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:04.740
And I think that that's a really, really good call and it's something that Chibnal will go on and continue with.

260
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:11.160
And in a way, rogue, although Rogue has some odd genre things happening as well, kind of does the same thing.

261
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:18.720
You know, the danger is always underplaying the levels of racism at the time.

262
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:24.059
When you've got Bridgerton, you're kind of going, well, there isn't historic racism in England and everything was fine.

263
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:26.460
And that's the danger that you have.

264
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:29.640
Here, I think it sort of strikes a balance.

265
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:40.799
It gets bill to express her concerns about being black in England in 1814 and it shows a diverse group of people living in England at the time.

266
00:21:40.859 --> 00:21:44.759
There was a quote in Sarah Dollard's mind when she's writing the episode.

267
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:46.200
I interviewed her about this episode.

268
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:47.099
Oh, 2 magazine.

269
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:47.700
Oh, magical.

270
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:49.799
And she yeah, she's great.

271
00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:54.599
I know it's not cool to talk about Louis C.K. now, but back then he hadn't gotten into trouble.

272
00:21:54.660 --> 00:22:00.359
And she had a quote of his in her mind, which ran, here's how great it is to be white.

273
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:04.500
I get to go in a time machine and go to any time and will be awesome when I get there.

274
00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:06.539
That's exclusively white privilege.

275
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.720
A black guy in a time machine's like, hey, anything before 1980.

276
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.380
No, thank you.

277
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:11.039
I don't want to go.

278
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:20.519
And so that's what she was thinking about when she was scripting these scenes of Bill confronting what it's like to go into history and what that would actually be like for a real person.

279
00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:21.359
Yeah.

280
00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:28.140
And like Doctor Who, in a way, doesn't want to get sort of too saddled with that in the Shooty Gantwa era.

281
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:40.559
And so it does its episode about racism before we go into the past and it goes into a version of the past that is fictional in all kinds of ways because of the effect of Bridgerton, I think.

282
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:48.299
And in many ways, I think that this episode's great strength is that it manages to be quite a light, whimsical feeling episode.

283
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:53.220
Well, actually dealing with some quite big issues, but never putting them on the nose.

284
00:22:53.339 --> 00:23:03.779
It strikes a very delicate balance between the sort of, and again, I already talked about sort of the gentle anachronisms that, you know, you see with the with the gear and stuff like that.

285
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:14.759
But between being in history versus what the RTD 2 era seems to have gone for, and, you know, the more like straight ahead historicals that of the Chibnol era.

286
00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:27.720
And what RTD 2 seems to have chosen is that explicitly fictional regency period, or explicitly fictional 18th century, where everything is colourblind, where it is sort of no one's paying attention. like that isn't a factor.

287
00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:40.140
So the fact that he's like in here in thin ice, we're striking that balance between, yes, this is a genre show, but we're also looking at a specific historical moment is it's very impressive.

288
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:41.460
It's and it's very light.

289
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:42.299
It's a very light touch.

290
00:23:55.799 --> 00:24:01.680
It surprises me that it's not coming from Stephen Muffet's pen.

291
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:09.059
Like, when I was watching this, I was going, oh, yes, Stephen, and then I realised, no, this is Sarah, you know, last week wasn't Stephen.

292
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:10.200
Next week's not Stephen.

293
00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:11.579
Oxygen's not Stephen.

294
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:18.240
Like these 4 episodes with all the world building for Bill and the relationship and all these questions are coming, not from Stephen.

295
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:26.819
He's obviously their supporting, but I think it's really significant, like that he's not putting his name to it. to take away from these other writers.

296
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:35.099
And they're obviously having huge conversations to ensure that they're on the same page and setting up this character because she's a one season wonder if I can say it like that.

297
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:36.779
So that just surprises me.

298
00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:39.539
So like, I'm impressed by that, you know?

299
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:45.180
The other big issue, of course, is Bill's reaction to death, you know?

300
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:49.380
Yeah, absolutely shocking when spider gets taken, like that young child.

301
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.640
That's pretty horrific.

302
00:24:50.700 --> 00:25:02.819
Like, even when I was watching it, I was thinking, you know, how I like my death and dying in Doctor Who, but, and, and, and, and having bad children actors dies in better, but that's not the case here.

303
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.319
Like, it actually is.

304
00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:07.680
Like he grabs the Sonic and that's it. and she's absolutely stunned.

305
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:16.559
That moment of brilliant black humour when he's only concerned twice in this episode is to get the Sonic back before it goes into the depths of the terms.

306
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.859
And so I think what that plot is doing.

307
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:28.920
And I think that's the more important plot about introducing Bill to the show is introducing her properly to the doctor as a character.

308
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.359
And I think it's really, really well done.

309
00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:38.519
And, you know, Sarah Dollard is an incredibly good writer, and it's done in a very rightly way.

310
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:45.839
So Spider is killed and the doctor grabs the Sonic.

311
00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:57.660
And you get kind of early season 8 vibes, the sort of, you know, he's the top layer, if anyone wants to say a few words, kind of vibes about not caring when someone has died.

312
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.839
And it's not as explicit as that.

313
00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:06.420
Like he's not flip or kind of horrible, but he does just sort of grab the, grab the Sonic and then run off.

314
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.220
And then you get Bill's response to that.

315
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:12.359
And we get the question about, have you seen people die?

316
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:17.220
And then the more important question, which hardly ever gets off.

317
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:20.519
Have you killed people, which is so good.

318
00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:24.119
And this is stuff we don't get from other Doctor Who companions.

319
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:32.339
And this is what impresses me so much and makes you really, well, made me sort of just think twice about.

320
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.119
Oh, hang on.

321
00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:36.599
Yeah, like this is something that should be asked and has never really been asked.

322
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:38.279
And that scene is just so impressive.

323
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:41.339
Like, you know, doctors does say I care, but I move on.

324
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.400
And after the response to that, have you ever killed anyone?

325
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.799
And, you know, he says, yeah, it's just very quiet.

326
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.019
And I just think there's a real strength in that.

327
00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:54.539
It's actually really good because he offers to kind of justification.

328
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:57.059
She says, have you ever killed anyone?

329
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:01.500
And he says, oh, you know, sometimes I'm in a position where, and she goes, that's not what I asked.

330
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:12.660
And she says it twice, she refuses to accept it, and then he smiles, and then replies, like it's so, it's beautifully acted by Capaldi.

331
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:14.160
It's so well done.

332
00:27:14.220 --> 00:27:17.339
And it kind of, we're in a bad place, aren't we?

333
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:23.579
Like we just interrupted at that and we're still in a bad place, I think, at that point of the episode.

334
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:36.299
And I think that that's, you know, this episode much more than being about the sea monster in the Thames is about her learning what the doctor is really like and what it means to be the doctor as well.

335
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:42.480
Well, for me, one of the most devastating moments of the episode, it nothing happens and you could gloss over it.

336
00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:46.680
You could completely miss it, but it's right before they have that confrontation.

337
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:51.119
When the doctor is talking to Kitty, I think her name is, and he says, we're going to help you.

338
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.099
And she goes, we, she's gone.

339
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:58.680
And he turns around and, you know, you were talking about the mist earlier and it's just him surrounded by me.

340
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:02.279
It's there's something really objectively terrifying about that.

341
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:04.440
Like, where has...

342
00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:06.420
Yes, like where has Bill gone?

343
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:18.779
And for me, again, going back to that professorial nature of their, the, the professor student, uh, tutor student nature of their relationship, when, when he does that smile, when she follows up on those questions?

344
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:21.720
Again, he has prepped her all through the pilot.

345
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:27.420
She's writing papers for him and she's like, you will not, we will not continue this unless you get a 1st every time.

346
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:36.240
Like, he has prepped her to be in these situations to follow up questions, not to just take something at face value and move on.

347
00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:44.700
Like, I mean, to move on in this in this scenario means something different than accept what I say and let's let's do the next thing.

348
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.460
Like he wants her to ask those questions.

349
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:49.740
She is learning in that in that scenario.

350
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:50.519
She is pushing him.

351
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.640
Yeah, it's he smiles, doesn't he?

352
00:28:53.759 --> 00:29:00.299
Because he's, um, attempts to fob her off don't work, and on some level, he's pleased about that.

353
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:01.259
Yep.

354
00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:03.660
It's it's really, really good.

355
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.359
And that's because you have Sarah Dollard.

356
00:29:06.420 --> 00:29:12.119
And like the last time we saw Sarah Dollard, we've seen her once, I so want her back.

357
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.000
What was her previous episode?

358
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:16.200
Face the Ravens.

359
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:16.799
Oh my god.

360
00:29:16.859 --> 00:29:17.160
Yeah.

361
00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:24.839
And the trouble with Face the Raven is, of course, that it's interrupted sort of 10 minutes from the end by the needs of the show.

362
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:25.799
Do you know what I mean?

363
00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:27.539
Yeah, it becomes a Doctor Who episode.

364
00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.900
But even the idea as well.

365
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:31.799
Do you know what I mean?

366
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:46.799
There's all these questions, which get raised in this one about aliens and humans, and our assumption that aliens can be bad and humans aren't quite so bad, and you've got refugees, we've got a refugee camp.

367
00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:47.880
Like it's political.

368
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:50.640
It's a bit about race.

369
00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:57.180
It's certainly about, you know, who's moral in a particular situation and she does that again here.

370
00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:01.079
Because we throw the face the Raven plot away.

371
00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:05.339
We throw the Trap Street plot away towards the end of the episode.

372
00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:07.680
There's no real resolution to any of that.

373
00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:12.000
But she's good, and having her back was the right thing to do.

374
00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:24.960
And I think this episode is, if anything, better. because even though it doesn't have the big shock moment and the incredible acting opportunities for Capoldian Coleman at the end.

375
00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:28.019
It's just solid and has something to say.

376
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:32.940
And one of the things that it does is it interrogates the doctor's character.

377
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.279
I don't want to reduce things to gender.

378
00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:46.740
But one of the things that is brilliant about having female writers in Doctor Who, which is still less common than you would hope it would be. is that they do bring a different perspective and experience.

379
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:47.640
They focus on...

380
00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:49.680
Do you remember enlightenment in the original series?

381
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:56.940
How that whole subplot with Tegan and Mariner, I don't think, would ever have entered into the story if you'd had Eric Saywood writing it.

382
00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:57.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

383
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.119
I don't think Terrence Dudley would have thought of it.

384
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:06.539
No, it just had a door or 2 to go through.

385
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:11.759
He would have turned it into a successful stalker plot where Marinade ended up killing Tegan.

386
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.180
But yeah, no, I think it's really great.

387
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:19.440
And Sarah Dollard brings a very specific thing to her scripts.

388
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:21.480
I feel in Face the Raven and in thin ice.

389
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:57.240
And so after that, of course, we get the moment where they're with the urchins, and Kitty's kind of accusing Bill, and Bill says, no, I moved on, and it's because the doctor hasn't been able to save Spider, but he really, really, really properly does want to save the urchins, and that's enough for her.

390
00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:00.480
He said, look, if I don't move on, people die.

391
00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:04.500
And he does that thing, which actually does sit badly, doesn't it?

392
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.160
In over 2000 years, I've never had the luxury of outrage.

393
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:13.920
And you kind of think, maybe, but that doesn't sound like the pirate planet.

394
00:32:13.980 --> 00:32:14.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

395
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:18.960
That doesn't sound like you, does it?

396
00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:23.220
And there's something incredibly moffity about the line that resolves it.

397
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:27.119
Isn't there that in 2000 years you've barely had time for anything else?

398
00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:33.779
You know, I think that's that Sarah Dollard knowing how Moffatt writes the show.

399
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.019
Nathan, that entire scene is just gold.

400
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.420
You put Peter Capaldi with small children.

401
00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:40.200
Yeah.

402
00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:45.119
And just his chemistry with them and how he interacts with them is just brilliant.

403
00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:47.279
And you can see Bill watching all of that.

404
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:52.079
And when she actually does say that move online and then she pokes out her tongue and the chemistry between...

405
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:53.160
It's so adorable.

406
00:32:53.220 --> 00:33:01.740
And it's just, it's just, this is another moment we had moments in smile, but here it's sort of like, here is this team, we're getting it together.

407
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:03.180
We are we're fine.

408
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.880
Like, we've already got it together, but we're really solidifying it.

409
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:08.099
And this is us moving forward.

410
00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:14.160
I mean, I think she deliberately says move on because that's what the doctor said before.

411
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:16.259
And the doctor looks at her.

412
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:20.400
And before he can be triumphant about it, she sticks her tongue out at him.

413
00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:21.059
It's perfect.

414
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:33.119
And this is why a friend from the future didn't work because that gave you all of Bill's literal asking all of the on the nose questions without any of this context of what makes her a brilliant character.

415
00:33:33.180 --> 00:33:35.220
And I'm going to I keep coming back to it.

416
00:33:35.279 --> 00:34:01.859
And I will keep coming back to it because I believe it's super, super important, is that is there, again, professorial tutorial relationship, and one of the things revisiting this series and thinking back on my own, uh, university history, the students that you are most proud of, the students that you go, Sorry, I get really emotional about this stuff, the students that you go to bat for, the ones that come to you after class and will, like, really impress you.

417
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.559
Those are the ones that you want to impress.

418
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:09.000
Those are the ones that make you want to raise your game as a teacher, as a professor.

419
00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:10.920
And so I see that in their relationship.

420
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:16.619
I see students who came to me after class and we're like, you know, I was reading this as speaking of racism.

421
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:26.820
There was a student who came to me one time talking about these close readings we had done and how he was reading an article in the newspaper about how urban students were more used to seeing guns.

422
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:28.559
And he was, he was pointing this out.

423
00:34:28.619 --> 00:34:32.400
He's like, the way that they talk about this, it's it's racially inflected.

424
00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:34.800
And I'm like, yes, exactly.

425
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:38.400
And that is that that is that moment where she says she's moved on.

426
00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:43.619
It's the, you know, he is trying to impress upon her as time travellers.

427
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:45.599
This is how we conduct ourselves.

428
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:56.400
This is how we approach these various scenarios and to see her implement that in the next scene is it has to be a moment of just extreme pride for him.

429
00:34:56.699 --> 00:35:04.079
And, you know, we've had in the uh, the 2 previous Capaldi seasons, you know, the the season 8 doctor is, am I a good man?

430
00:35:04.139 --> 00:35:12.300
Like we've, we've, we've divorced in some ways in the Capaldi era, the doctor from who he is as a person, as a character.

431
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.300
In that season, he is trying to figure out, who am I?

432
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.199
In the in the next season, in the in the season where Clara leaves.

433
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:25.440
It's now that I know who I am, which is I'm an idiot with a box, you know, how does that fit in with the doctor?

434
00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:26.880
How does that fit in with my role?

435
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:31.800
And now in the 3rd season with Bill, he has this more professorial role.

436
00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:35.159
There's a different relationship, how he is, how he is.

437
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:42.000
As an idiot with a box, is different now that he is with Bill, and this affects everything.

438
00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:43.019
It affects everything.

439
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:50.579
I feel like this is him at his sort of most comfortable as himself and as the doctor.

440
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.059
Like this is him at his, this is peak Capaldi Doctor Who.

441
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:55.559
And I absolutely love it.

442
00:35:55.619 --> 00:36:01.619
It's true what you said, series 8 and 9 were quite inward focussing on the doctor as the doctor focussing on himself.

443
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.539
This is seeing him through the prism of new eyes.

444
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:04.079
Yeah.

445
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:11.219
And I think it's Peter Pauldi's sweet spot, the characterisation of the doctor, I think, in this season is pretty perfect.

446
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.500
And we'd never had that before.

447
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:19.920
I mean, Clara, when she meets this new doctor, has been travelling with the doctor already.

448
00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:22.440
And so she knows him.

449
00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:23.519
He's a known quantity.

450
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:25.079
She knows him terribly well.

451
00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:34.679
And so this, you know, like right from the pilot, even just from the pilot, you know, Capoldi is so comfortable and so good.

452
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:46.980
I mean, this is a year where you have someone playing with Doctor Who is very nearly the best person ever to play the doctor in his best year as the doctor.

453
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:53.519
And so I think going forward, I'm not going to be wowed by every single episode, I think, this season.

454
00:36:53.579 --> 00:36:54.900
Maybe I am.

455
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:56.760
Uh, but...

456
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:58.860
Knock knock is to come.

457
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:03.420
But I'm so impressed by Capoldi as the doctor.

458
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.539
This is the doctor, I think, in an incredible way.

459
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:11.400
There's all those overarching things that make or break a Doctor Who season.

460
00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:23.460
And so I've heard it mentioned that while the 3rd Capaldi series is pretty well thought of as being his best overall, there are some people who grouse about the fact that some of the stories aren't that great and so is it in fact?

461
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:25.679
Yeah, okay, there's some lesser entries in there.

462
00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:27.239
There's also some really great episodes.

463
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:40.320
But the fact that Capaldi is at the height of his powers, and they've really nailed the characterisation, and he's given a companion who really works well with that characterisation, means that that's what makes it feel like the best Capaldi season.

464
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:42.960
It doesn't come down to the nature of individual episodes.

465
00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:46.260
I mean, it's a bit like Lislated and Tom Baker.

466
00:37:46.320 --> 00:38:09.360
Like, you know, like their chemistry and their height of powers makes you watch anything, even the lesser entries, you still want to watch those episodes for their chemistry, and for their jokes, like even when they go in, to the, um, they go to the dredger's yard, and they're looking at the stuff that's been burnt, and there's even comedy moment there at the end, you know, where she says, oh, she's going to swear.

467
00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:16.739
And that's what I love about Doctor Who is when there's comedy between the leads.

468
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.480
It's just the chemistry there.

469
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:29.760
That makes it for me, even when perhaps the plot is bit on thin ice, so to speak, or a bit thin, like that's what elevates it.

470
00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:31.800
You know, I'm really thinking, Nathan.

471
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.639
No, no, no.

472
00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:34.320
An 8 out of 10 at least.

473
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:35.460
We'll get you there.

474
00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:37.619
That scene in particular.

475
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:43.500
Incredible. so beautifully written because it's really, really funny and all it is is an exposition scene.

476
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:44.639
Yep, yeah.

477
00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:45.659
It's really well done.

478
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:52.500
They managed to sell the thing that it's the dung of the monsters without ever explicitly saying it.

479
00:38:52.559 --> 00:39:00.059
And it's the squelching sound when Bill puts it down and the look on her face that sells it more than anything else.

480
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.079
Doesn't it look like the stuff that comes out at the insect machines in Snowpiercer?

481
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:05.579
don't know what that is.

482
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:07.260
Basically they feed the people.

483
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:12.480
They feed the people in the steerage of the train by putting all these insects into this machine.

484
00:39:12.539 --> 00:39:15.719
It comes out of this kind of black gelatinous mass that they all eat up.

485
00:39:15.780 --> 00:39:17.880
It looks just like it.

486
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:24.119
But yeah, in this in this scene where they're interviewing or, you know, grilling the guy at the dredger's yard.

487
00:39:24.179 --> 00:39:28.019
He's still teaching her. you know, this is like, you know, this is a mini boss.

488
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.659
If you were, you know, to put it in video game parlance.

489
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:33.840
You know, you don't have to be as, you don't have to be as assertive with him.

490
00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:35.760
You can make him give away his own secrets.

491
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:41.880
Like, I love that that part where Capaldi says, Suckcliffe will be very pleased with your inquisitiveness.

492
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.260
And he's like, oh, you think so?

493
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:48.539
And he's like, yeah, I think you'll, you know, he's like, you won't be here long if you keep asking questions at this rate.

494
00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:53.400
I've already talked about, you know, any idiot could come in here and just get you blabbing.

495
00:39:53.519 --> 00:40:08.639
I think the best bit is Bill's line where the doctor throws to Bill and says, is Sutcliffe expecting us or something, and Bill delivers this line and kind of swallows it because she's making it up as she goes along.

496
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:11.460
It's such a brilliant, perfect line delivery.

497
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.219
And it's, you know, no, no, he insisted that we come.

498
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:22.440
And he's kind of inviting her to participate in this and she nails it, but it's such a comedy line delivery.

499
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:25.079
I think that's a really, really properly great scene.

500
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:29.039
And again, it's because Sarah Dollard is an incredibly good writer.

501
00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:36.119
And Bill, as a character, is so she's so genuine and so gentle and so unassuming.

502
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:37.679
Like, it's a completely different.

503
00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:46.199
I mean, obviously it's a completely different character than the more sort of arch, knowing sort of approach that we would have gotten from a Clara, say.

504
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.780
Like, again, the approach is so different.

505
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:52.679
It's so, again, it's just so gentle and so, so welcoming.

506
00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:54.239
You know, you feel like you're part of that.

507
00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:58.079
And even with all the issues that the episode is discussing.

508
00:40:58.139 --> 00:41:03.000
It's the doctor giving Bill permission to have fun. and the expense of the bad guys.

509
00:41:03.300 --> 00:41:05.940
And so that speech.

510
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:21.780
So, like we've talked about the doctor punching cycliff in the face, and obviously that's absolutely superb, and partly it's superb because the doctor's being so high-minded, and in a way, he's telling a black woman not to get too angry about racism.

511
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:28.380
And he's putting himself in a position of sort of Olympian detachment and rationality and stuff.

512
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:33.360
And he's kind of saying you have a tendency to lose your temper about these kinds of things.

513
00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:35.460
And so it's not that great.

514
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:39.480
And then, of course, the moment Sutcliffe opens his mouth, Capaldi punches him in the face.

515
00:41:39.539 --> 00:41:44.639
Do you remember that punching a racist in the face was having a cultural moment at the time?

516
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:47.219
Remember what happened on Trump's inauguration day?

517
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:48.300
Oh no.

518
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:51.719
We had the white nationalist, Richard Spencer on TV.

519
00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:54.420
And someone just came up and punched him in the face.

520
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:55.380
He was being interviewed.

521
00:41:55.440 --> 00:42:02.159
He was explaining what the badge on his on his lapel mend and someone just came up and punched him in the face.

522
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:06.239
Yeah, I would never advocate violence except comedy violence such as that.

523
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:07.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

524
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.420
No, punching white supremacists in the face.

525
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:19.019
And it, you know, like this episode airs a few months before the unite, the right rally in Charlottesville, but obviously Trump is in the air.

526
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:20.760
It's in the air, isn't it?

527
00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:21.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

528
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.480
And those, yeah, those were those were ugly times too.

529
00:42:24.539 --> 00:42:25.800
I mean, there's still ugly.

530
00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:27.179
There still could be ugly times.

531
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:39.360
It's funny, isn't it, that we've been complaining over the last few episodes that Doctor Who often comes to things about 5 years late and starts talking about them, but here it's absolutely...

532
00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:44.400
No, but it's, you know, like we get Charlottesville in August and this comes out in April.

533
00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:46.320
Like it's very, very timely.

534
00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:53.280
And of course, Trump's inauguration day was January 20, but Sarah Dollard wouldn't have been referencing that because the script would have been written.

535
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:54.420
Yeah, exactly.

536
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:54.780
Yeah.

537
00:42:54.780 --> 00:42:55.440
Yeah.

538
00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:57.539
So I mean, that's incredibly good.

539
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:17.519
That scene is incredibly good, but then there's the speech that Capoldi gives, which, and again, it's so rare to hear what the doctor stands for, expressed so briefly and concisely, and he says human progress isn't measured through industry.

540
00:43:17.579 --> 00:43:24.059
It's measured by the way that we answer the question whose life is valuable.

541
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:32.940
And Suckcliffe thinks that his life and the lives of people like him are valuable, but other people's lives aren't.

542
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:43.800
But progress comes when we regard people like Spider and Kitty as valuable, even though they're unproductive urchins who steal things and stuff.

543
00:43:43.860 --> 00:43:46.619
And I think that that's a beautiful statement.

544
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:50.460
And Bill, like Bill's reaction to that.

545
00:43:50.519 --> 00:44:01.500
The way that she is gazing at him and smiling, and then the way she comes back and says 2000 years, you've done nothing but outrage in that time.

546
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:04.440
It's like, it's a properly good speech.

547
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:09.059
It's not 10 minutes long, like the one at the end of the psychon inversion.

548
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:10.679
Which also is amazing.

549
00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:13.500
Which is also amazing, yeah, but it is amazing.

550
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:17.340
It's a very condensed speech and but it is very effective.

551
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:23.340
And what she says to him in the carriage after is she follows up on a different question from earlier because he had said, you know, I'm 2000 years old.

552
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:26.280
And so Bill says, are you really 2000?

553
00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.380
And he's like, why do you ask?

554
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:32.760
And she's like, well, I want to know how long you have to live before you can make a speech like that.

555
00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:42.840
Like that, and again, that's that, that's that tutor student moment where, you know, it's not the admiration she's looking at him with isn't like, wow, isn't he so great?

556
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:53.039
It's the same thing as she came to him in a smile in the previous episode with there's a moment where they're walking through the corridors and she stops him for a 2nd.

557
00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:54.000
She's like, you know what?

558
00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:55.559
You are an awesome tutor.

559
00:44:55.619 --> 00:44:59.219
Like, it's, it's that, it's that look that she gives him.

560
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:01.500
It's, I can't believe I'm I'm learning.

561
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:02.880
I'm learning from him.

562
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:13.500
And it brings it back, I think, to the cleverness of Sarah Dollard in the frost fair is, of course, an amazing location for a dog 2 episode to be set in.

563
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:15.480
I'm surprised that we haven't pitched up there.

564
00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:26.280
Well, we have, because in a good man goes through a war, river comes home from this frost fair, where Stevie one taken.

565
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:26.940
Yes.

566
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.199
Don't tell him, though.

567
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:32.760
I'm surprised hasn't been the prime location for a doctor episode so far.

568
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:37.559
And it has actually been in some spinoff media that are the... short stories and things.

569
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:38.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

570
00:45:38.219 --> 00:45:45.960
But the thing is, the frost fair in Victorian London was one of the few forums where you would get all of the classes interacting.

571
00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:49.739
And so that really sets it up for a discussion about that.

572
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:57.840
And so bringing in Sutcliffe and the urchins makes, you know, you say all of London society, all of human society at the time represented there.

573
00:45:57.900 --> 00:46:01.679
So it's a really good forum for those issues to be highlighted, I think.

574
00:46:01.739 --> 00:46:05.579
And so this is where we get to see what the doctor stands for.

575
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:16.559
You know, this is why the doctor does what he does, is because he thinks all lives are important and that's why he puts a stop to people oppressing people.

576
00:46:16.619 --> 00:46:22.260
And I think that there are just 2 more scenes in this arc that are really, really important.

577
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:30.840
And the one is where he asks Bill what has to happen next.

578
00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:31.860
Yeah?

579
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:32.639
Give me an order.

580
00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:34.139
Yeah, give me an order.

581
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:42.539
And we have touched on that, haven't we, in Kill the Moon a bit, but this is done better than that, I think.

582
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:45.780
And I think he's revisiting it on purpose.

583
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:57.840
Again, I think it's part of the lesson to build because moments before, they're tied up in the tent with all the explosives and they're kicking around the Sonic to try and get it to get it, which is a funny comedy.

584
00:46:57.900 --> 00:46:59.159
John and Katie moment?

585
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:00.599
That's a John Katie moment?

586
00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:04.679
I'm trying to think because now she's in a, like we've done the moral thing.

587
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:06.900
She's convinced that the doctor's a good guy.

588
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.239
And so now we're off to have a Doctor Who episode.

589
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:11.760
And so someone ties us to a bomb.

590
00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:20.460
And then by the same token, I mean, you get that moment, the repeat of the moment from deep breath where he's like, oh, I wish Amy were here because her legs are longer.

591
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:26.159
Yeah, but so she's like kicking the kicking the Sonic around, but they have to lure the lackey back in.

592
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:33.480
So you get a repeat of the spider moment from earlier because, again, you have to, you have to sacrifice a lackey in order to move.

593
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:35.460
And Bill is Bill is right there.

594
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.860
You know, and she has to be part of it.

595
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.820
It's not just that how many people have you seen die?

596
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:44.519
It's how many people have you killed?

597
00:47:44.579 --> 00:47:48.539
And so we see him trick that guy.

598
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:55.260
And he does say that sort of blase thing about, oh, you know, it's got a knack to it pressing the off button on it.

599
00:47:55.320 --> 00:48:02.760
But it absolutely clear that he deliberately kills that guy in front of her and she's okay with it.

600
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:05.579
And so, and so that's answered.

601
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:07.980
I think that's so incredibly well done.

602
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:13.619
It's that thing of the doctor doesn't really sit out to kill people, but he happily lets the villains fall into their own traps.

603
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:15.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

604
00:48:15.059 --> 00:48:16.679
But I mean, that guy's just some guy.

605
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:17.699
Do you know what I mean?

606
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:25.260
But it's it's just so well done that both of those questions that get raised get answered.

607
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:27.239
It's very good.

608
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:29.039
And again, it's practice.

609
00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:32.880
It's practical implementation of the lesson he taught her earlier.

610
00:48:32.940 --> 00:48:46.800
And I, in the same episode, like I absolutely love that, that you get those echos from the 1st phase of the episode, which is like asking questions about the practicality of time travel and about, you know, the moral responsibilities that you have as a time traveller.

611
00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:52.559
And then here in the, quote, Doctor Who episode, part of the show, like we're putting those lessons into practice.

612
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:55.980
Nathan, you were saying there's another moment.

613
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.639
Is that at the end where they check about history and...

614
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:10.679
No, the 2 moments I was thinking of, and I just got them in the wrong order, the one is where Dow gets killed, you know, where the henchman gets killed, and then the you have to make the decision.

615
00:49:10.739 --> 00:49:16.920
And so he gets her to be the doctor is what's happening with that.

616
00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:22.739
He gets her to be the doctor and learn what it is like to make that decision.

617
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:30.059
And then at the very end, when she is delighted that he has saved the urchins.

618
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:34.380
He says, no, no, you save the urchins.

619
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:45.300
And so that big moral decision where you have to, you know, the doctor can't sit around mooning about the fact that Spider has died and he just has to get on with saving everyone else.

620
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:52.739
He does that spectacularly well to the point where they end up in a big giant mansion and eating sort of lots of food and all of that sort of thing.

621
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:59.159
But he makes her involved in making those decisions.

622
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:03.179
And I guess it's what you were saying, Melvin, about being a teacher.

623
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:05.460
You know, now you watch.

624
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.059
This is how we make the decisions and these are the kinds of decisions we make.

625
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:14.460
But by the same token, Capaldi himself is also a student.

626
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:17.519
He is learning from Bill and learning from his own experiences.

627
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:31.500
I don't think it's a coincidence, and whether it's intentional or not, doesn't matter, because it does so closely echo that exact sequence of events in Kill the Moon, where he abandons Clara and the astronaut and Courtney Woods to make those decisions for themselves.

628
00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:33.659
Here, he's like, I've done this.

629
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:35.760
I can do, I can do this better.

630
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:37.920
I can do this better for Bill.

631
00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:42.780
Like, you know, and he doesn't make her necessarily kill the lackey.

632
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:45.539
He doesn't necessarily make her go and set the explosives.

633
00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:49.800
You know, he goes and says the explosive while she goes and tells people to get people off the ice.

634
00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:58.380
So he doesn't want a repeat of what happened with Clara, where Clara is making decisions recklessly and fecklessly, like in a lot of ways.

635
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:11.159
Like that there is, he wants to teach her in a way that will maintain some of her essential billness, you know, to, in other words, to allow her to make those decisions, but the right way and for the right reasons.

636
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:21.420
And when you say he's learning, he learned from Clara's reaction and kill the moon, they are just foisting that responsibility onto someone and then walking away is not the right way to deal with things.

637
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:32.760
The other thing that we haven't talked that much about is the kind of political allegory of satire.

638
00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:40.440
So you've got a big monster that eats children and people and turns them into fuel for, you know, the steel mills.

639
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:41.940
What's that, Nullagry for?

640
00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:43.139
I can imagine.

641
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.400
And, you know, like all of that sort of fairly obvious and stuff.

642
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:50.400
Simon would think it was too obvious.

643
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:54.300
But I think it works incredibly well.

644
00:51:54.360 --> 00:52:06.719
And I think what's great about it is that it's not just an allegory because at the end of the episode, we can't kill that monster, we have to free it as well.

645
00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:12.599
The monster is being exploited every bit as much as the people fed to it.

646
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:14.460
It's very beast below, isn't it?

647
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:16.019
Yeah, it is very beast below.

648
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:24.780
And it is like a slight troping, like a turn on the image that we get at the beginning where Bill is asking, it's 1814, won't someone enslave me?

649
00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:33.239
Like that, you know, again, it's like a, it's a slight trope on that idea that there is a, there is something in this episode that is enslaved.

650
00:52:33.300 --> 00:52:37.920
And Sutcliffe says that the fish has been that Tiny has been in chains.

651
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:48.179
And that I think we get like a sort of minor sort of explanation of why the Thames has frozen over since the 1600s or whatever, is that the fish has been down there since there have been records.

652
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:50.760
So it has been enchained all that time.

653
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:58.139
And it's very well told that as well, like that discovery is not hammered home to us.

654
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:00.239
It's just we see the chains.

655
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:09.119
You know, there couldn't be a better kind of visual image of oppression than chaining something up and that's what we see.

656
00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:11.760
And so the doctor breaks the chains.

657
00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:17.280
And again, you know, it's absolutely emblematic of what the doctor does.

658
00:53:17.340 --> 00:53:40.260
I know it's about imperialism and capitalism and all of that sort of thing, but it's also just about any kind of oppression in the same way that, say, the savages is about. the race on some level as well, but it is also just about a group of people oppressing another group and the doctor coming in and smashing that system up.

659
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:50.219
And I think, so this is the episode much, much more than smile where Bill learns and we learn what Doctor Who is about.

660
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:53.820
And smile is visually stunning.

661
00:53:53.880 --> 00:54:07.380
It teaches us some of the genre things about the show in this era, but it doesn't really have anything very interesting to say, I think, whereas this properly does.

662
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:12.179
And it's very unusual to have a regency set piece.

663
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:24.840
And I think that's one of the things that Bill is talking about when she says that Regency England is a bit blacker than it is in the movies because, generally speaking, when there are popular fictions or popular films or adaptations, there are adaptations of Jane Austen.

664
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:41.940
Or, you know, Fannie Bernie at the outset, but like, you don't usually get the Mills kind of stuff, which is more of a William Blake sort of, he's, you know, in this era as well, talking about that kind of stuff, but the popular fictions of that era that we know are the polite society drawing room stuff.

665
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:57.659
You know, we don't usually get the, you know, mill exploited children stuff until Dickens or Gaskell, like in the 1860s and 70s, like this is, that is also a very clever thing that Sarah Dahr does in this episode is turn the lens away from the drawing rooms.

666
00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:01.320
The, you know, who is the resident of the drawing room in this episode, it's Sutcliffe.

667
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:04.860
Like, we're not living. in that world in this episode.

668
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:24.360
We visit it, but it's a place that, and it's a place that we can, you know, the fantasy of the show doesn't extend super, super far because while he does, you know, while Sutcliffe does fall and the children do inherit the estate, it is Perry, who has had no lines in the episode because he is the one white boy.

669
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:26.699
So you can't completely overturn the system.

670
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:30.420
You can't let Kitty have the Kitty can't be the inheritor.

671
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:32.699
So, you know, you can't completely overturned.

672
00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:42.059
So again, this is another clever thing that Sarah Dollard has done is show you ways that you can, I don't know, exploit a system that is exploiting others, but only within certain bounds.

673
00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:47.699
So, again, we're not in the RTD 2 era where, you know, it's it's a free-for-all Bridgerton fantasy world.

674
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:51.900
Like we do have to obey some of the constraints of the era that we're in.

675
00:55:52.679 --> 00:56:01.260
I really like that Sarah brings all of this to the episode, whereas apparently Stevens one big question was, why is the Thames shaped like that?

676
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:03.119
And that's where the monster came from.

677
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:08.760
He'd been watching EastEnders.

678
00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:16.019
I do wish the splash that goes on Bill and the doctor was bigger.

679
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.380
It's pretty cheesy, isn't it?

680
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:19.980
It's pretty great.

681
00:56:19.980 --> 00:56:21.840
With a Sarah Jane adventures moment.

682
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:28.019
It is also really great because there's another sort of echo of Kill the Moon.

683
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:38.579
Remember the idea that if we kill the baby dragon, we look up at the moon and it's a corpse for the rest of time.

684
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:43.440
Every time we look up at the night sky, we're reminded that there's a corpse circling the earth.

685
00:56:43.500 --> 00:56:57.900
And the doctor says to Bill, when he's trying to get her to make that decision, he says, if your future is predicated on the continued suffering of this creature, is it worth saving anyway?

686
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.179
And she just says, you know, screw it.

687
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.280
No, which I think is really great.

688
00:57:02.340 --> 00:57:25.260
And that's another sort of historical fact that if you do a little bit of digging is, in some way, tangentially related to that, because we were talking earlier about, you know, the, I said that, you know, the slave trade was outlawed in England in 1807, it was finally outlawed, uh, throughout the empire in the 18, like, sort of 1833, and then finally, finally abolished, because that's how you have to do it in 1838.

689
00:57:25.500 --> 00:57:35.639
But the way it was abolished was that the government of the United Kingdom had to pay all of the slave owners, throughout the colonies, and those, and they had to take out a giant loan in order to do it.

690
00:57:36.059 --> 00:57:38.639
That loan was not paid off until 2015.

691
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:52.199
And so that, and so if you want to think about like, if the future of your country is predicated on the exploitation, you know, I mean, you don't have to look any further than that to, like, to have that sort of, like, ring in your ears.

692
00:57:52.260 --> 00:57:59.579
I mean, you and I both live in new world countries where we look around and are reminded of where all this stuff came from.

693
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:00.900
Yes.

694
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:10.679
What an absolutely mesmerising discussion of this episode and trying things back to kill the moon and just the whole structure in which you've all discussed this.

695
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:11.940
So, 9.5?

696
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.559
Oh, yeah, easily.

697
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:18.420
Best episode of the season.

698
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:44.460
Well, nearly, sir, that's all the time we've got.

699
00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:51.420
She'll be sweet. will be back next week to watch David Souchet in an adventure in millennial flat sharing in knock knock.

700
00:58:51.599 --> 00:59:09.960
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500-year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

701
00:59:10.860 --> 00:59:16.679
Until next time, always remember to put a bit of coffee in your tea, just to give it some flavour.

702
00:59:16.739 --> 00:59:19.139
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

703
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:20.340
See you soon.

704
00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:21.239
Good night.

705
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:22.440
Good night, everyone.

706
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:33.000
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd B. It'll be Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and Melvin Penya.

707
00:59:33.059 --> 00:59:35.219
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

708
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:43.500
This episode, the ones that make you want to raise your game, was recorded on the 11th of August 2024 and released on the 29th of September.

709
00:59:43.739 --> 00:59:49.320
With climate change being what it is, things like the Thames Frostfarer, now a thing of the past.

710
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:57.659
But we can still look forward to the Thames fire fair to be celebrated in 2027 when the river itself catches fire for 6 months.

711
00:59:57.719 --> 00:59:59.039
We'll see you there.

712
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:06.900
Honestly, I've come to it with new eyes now.

713
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:19.739
Like, I mean, I liked it, but I didn't put all those dots together and certainly seeing all of the callbacks to and the growth in the Capelli character and their whole relationship and how that's all building.

714
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:21.420
You made it perfectly clear.

715
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:24.119
And I think it's a real strength of the episode.

716
01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:29.579
And it's not, I said a few 30 minutes ago that it was like thin on plot, but it's actually not.

717
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:35.400
Yeah, I think I think that what it does is it has enough plot for 45 minutes.

718
01:00:35.460 --> 01:00:40.920
It does have them tied up in episode three, which I thought was pretty delightful.

719
01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:44.099
The old snake dance.

720
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:57.239
But she kind of manages to, you know, the show is getting better at that as time goes on as it shakes itself off from the shackles of the four-part episode.

721
01:00:57.300 --> 01:01:07.500
And so, um, a thing that classic who very rarely does, which is this episode is about the relationship between our 2 leads, essentially.

722
01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:13.800
Like, that's not a thing that the show is interested in doing back in the classic era, and that's perfectly fine.

723
01:01:13.860 --> 01:01:18.239
But now that it's back and it's doing modern TV, I think it's a thing that it does really well.

724
01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:35.219
And I think that this manages more than smile last week to have an interesting plot that goes beyond just the 2 leads getting to know one another and the version of the plot with the 2 leads getting to know one another is so much better than it is in smile.

725
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:37.079
Like, I think it's just a triumph.

726
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:44.159
There's definitely enough plot here, but you know, there is more to an episode than plot, and there is a lot going on in this episode, I think.

727
01:01:44.219 --> 01:01:46.980
And also smile is sort of, I'm sorry.

728
01:01:47.039 --> 01:02:01.559
I was going to say, smile is also sort of easing you into or easing Bill into being off-world, whereas the pilot, you know, again, she's writing papers, you know, who, I feel like that episode maybe takes six, 8 months because, I mean, she writes lots and lots of papers.

729
01:02:01.619 --> 01:02:04.679
You can't do that very quickly, but like, you know, he is...

730
01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:05.280
Yep.

731
01:02:05.340 --> 01:02:08.039
He's preparing her for for this.

732
01:02:08.099 --> 01:02:10.679
And smile, I feel, is a 1st step.

733
01:02:10.739 --> 01:02:11.820
It is a simpler episode.

734
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:19.619
Yeah, there's not as much going on, but I feel like it is a way to ease both the audience and Bill into a larger world.

735
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:25.019
And again, like one of the great things, I may have mentioned it earlier, um, or maybe I was just thinking it in my head.

736
01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:26.579
Uh, it amounts to the same thing.

737
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:36.300
Bill, at the beginning of Smile, one of, I think my favourite moment of that episode is, at the very beginning, Capaldi asks, where do you want to go, past or future, and she goes, future.

738
01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:38.159
And he says, why do you want to go to the future?

739
01:02:38.219 --> 01:02:39.599
She says, why do you think?

740
01:02:39.659 --> 01:02:41.159
I want to see if it's happy.

741
01:02:41.219 --> 01:02:53.159
Like, there's something really, like, earnest and joyful and hopeful and optimistic and, uh, uh, again, very, very genuine about Bill's outlook and to have her go into an episode called Smile.

742
01:02:53.219 --> 01:03:05.340
Like, again, it's, it is simple, but it is, you know, it prepares us and her for this episode, which is more complicated, more layered, more, um, yeah.

743
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:06.719
Yeah.

744
01:03:06.780 --> 01:03:15.000
No, no, I mean, I, I think I, I compared it last week to both space babies and at the end of the world.

745
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:26.280
And the end of the world, which is magnificent, you know, in all sorts of ways and, you know, an absolute triumph, um, has a very, very thin plot, like paper fin.

746
01:03:26.340 --> 01:03:27.059
It's just...

747
01:03:27.059 --> 01:03:27.900
Thin and gorgeous.

748
01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:28.860
Thin and gorgeous.

749
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:30.119
It's just Cassandra.

750
01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:33.900
You know, doing an insurance scam.

751
01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:35.219
There's really nothing to it at all.

752
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:53.579
Um, whereas, you know, this, you know, whereas um, both smile, whereas this manages to do something very, very similar, I think it does the bulk of the getting to know what Doctor Who is for this season.

753
01:03:53.699 --> 01:03:57.539
It does it very similar in an episode that is not trivial, I think.

754
01:03:57.900 --> 01:04:01.559
I think you're right, Melvin, by saying this is much more layered.

755
01:04:01.619 --> 01:04:09.539
And there are lays to this which are just, you can gloss over if you're not, if you're not really in the moment.

756
01:04:09.659 --> 01:04:15.659
Like, you know, if you're not really thinking about it, you can just look at it and go, oh, yes, it's, it's a nice episode, but it has got that layering.

757
01:04:15.659 --> 01:04:22.380
And, and of course, it also has no doll serving tea coffee, which is, you know, extremely important.

758
01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:27.599
It's a deceptively strong episode, much like the arc that we were talking about.

759
01:04:27.659 --> 01:04:35.219
So let's talk about the end because we forgot last week to talk about the cliffhanger and this one ends on a cliffhanger as well.

760
01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:40.980
And so it looks like we've decided that the doctor's going to go travelling.

761
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:42.300
Is that right?

762
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:55.260
Because, and it's a great callback because there's the, the guy, the, there's the pie man, um, and the doctor learns the, the trick, the coin trick.

763
01:04:55.320 --> 01:05:02.039
And then he uses the coin trick to manipulate nut all into letting him go off world from now on.

764
01:05:02.099 --> 01:05:03.659
So he's clearly doing that.

765
01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:09.780
And now we're being and now we're being made more curious about the vault at the end.

766
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:13.739
If there's anything to say about that.

767
01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:17.099
Well, it's just the ongoing plot of the season, what is in the vault?

768
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

769
01:05:17.940 --> 01:05:20.940
And it's just there to remind us without sort of.

770
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:23.820
Yeah, I was going to say.

771
01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:34.679
Yeah, I was going to say the thing about the arc tacked on here at the end is even if you were popping in and out as a new viewer watching, you know, this is your 1st episode of Doctor Who.

772
01:05:34.739 --> 01:05:39.420
That's a very nice, easy, like, entry into the arc as well.

773
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:41.340
Like, you don't need to know anything else about it.

774
01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:43.679
Because Nordo tells you everything you need to know.

775
01:05:43.739 --> 01:05:47.699
Your oath, the vault, you know, it's like, it's it's all there.

776
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:54.300
And this is like in terms of the, uh, you know, Moffatt sort of, uh, arc, uh, tendencies.

777
01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:57.000
They they do tend to feel a little bit forced from time to time.

778
01:05:57.059 --> 01:06:02.099
And I really like the way that this one is just sort of feels organically part of the part of the episode.

779
01:06:02.340 --> 01:06:16.320
We said on the pilot that there were parallels with the Pertwee era, with the doctor kind of being in an institution on earth and getting a new companion, having a sidekick, you know, the brigadier or Nardol interchange as you want.

780
01:06:16.380 --> 01:06:24.000
Um, but that would also reflect that in the in the Pertwee era, the doctor starts to move away from Earth more and more.

781
01:06:24.059 --> 01:06:27.300
And so that's what's happening. what happens after this episode as well.

782
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:49.019
And I think it's good that like what makes this a good cliffhanger in the sense that it's a what's going to happen now, Cliffhanger, is that the doctor makes the decision to go off world now after 70 years and as he makes that decision, the vault is seen hotting up, you know, suddenly becoming more active.

783
01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:52.079
And so I think that sort of, that's pretty interesting.

784
01:06:52.139 --> 01:06:55.500
And knowing that, can we give spoilers?

785
01:06:55.559 --> 01:07:01.199
Yeah, yeah, knowing that it's missy in the vault, has dulled it to the 1st time when we weren't sure.

786
01:07:01.260 --> 01:07:02.699
And actually, the mystery was quite thick.

787
01:07:02.820 --> 01:07:04.440
It's like, what is behind that door?

788
01:07:04.500 --> 01:07:05.280
Yeah.

789
01:07:05.340 --> 01:07:07.320
It turns out Michelle Gomez?

790
01:07:07.380 --> 01:07:09.119
Yeah, which awesome.

791
01:07:09.960 --> 01:07:12.000
Open my front door.

792
01:07:12.059 --> 01:07:29.280
Yeah, and it also gives you a little bit more clue into Nardol's character because he tends to be all over the map in his 1st sort of 3 or 4 appearances, but here he is very decisive and very sort of like, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, forceful with Missy.

793
01:07:29.340 --> 01:07:31.260
I mean, we know it's Missy through the door.

794
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:37.860
So we know that whatever he has gone through, even though he didn't ask to be put back together, as he says in here in thin ice.

795
01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.619
Um, that he is that he is part of this team.

796
01:07:40.679 --> 01:07:44.280
And, uh, you know, it's a character that I, I really have a lot of time for.

797
01:07:44.280 --> 01:08:15.300
And, you know, had sort of, you know, sort of forgotten about until revisiting this season, uh, and a couple of, the previous couple of specials getting ready for this is like, I was just sort of forgotten about him and his character and the, the fact that, you know, we don't know how long he's been with Capaldi, you know, they, they could have had, you know, big finish box set after big finish box set together because, you know, even in the 1st few episodes of this season, the way that he acts and interacts with seems to, you know, very, you know, based on what scene they're in.

798
01:08:15.360 --> 01:08:17.880
Like, he can be very aggressive towards the doctor.

799
01:08:17.939 --> 01:08:20.399
He can be very sort of it's not my problem.

800
01:08:20.460 --> 01:08:33.779
He says in, you know, I think it's the pilot, you know, I'm not going to serve tea to that human or whatever when Bill joins up, like, he can be all over the place, but you get a sort of, you get a firmer sense of who he is based, you know, once you know that that's missy in the vault.

801
01:08:33.899 --> 01:08:40.920
Well, it's only a scant 8 episodes until Missy will correctly dub him comedy and or exposition.

802
01:08:40.979 --> 01:08:43.199
Comedy relief and or exposition.

803
01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:48.239
I think I think we have an out.

804
01:08:48.300 --> 01:08:49.680
I think we have an out.

805
01:08:49.739 --> 01:08:52.079
So I think we're good.

806
01:08:52.140 --> 01:09:13.619
Yeah, the, I think that was like, I think we decided early on, like I think I might have said in the pilot that that Nadol is the 2nd longest serving companion of the doctor has been with him at least 70 2nd handles.

807
01:09:13.680 --> 01:09:13.859
Yeah.

808
01:09:13.979 --> 01:09:18.899
Yeah, 2nd only to handles as companion of a doctor.

809
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:24.119
And I wonder where there's a difference in the way he plays it in, like, he's much grumpier.

810
01:09:24.180 --> 01:09:32.699
He's decades older, in the pilot than he is in, um, uh, what's the, what?

811
01:09:32.699 --> 01:09:33.779
Dr. Mysterio.

812
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:36.539
Oh, yeah, Dr. Mysterio.

813
01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:37.260
Yeah, remember?

814
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:41.279
Remember when he goes into the thing and goes, ooh, elephant, and then runs over a word?

815
01:09:42.420 --> 01:09:45.960
Like he's and he's asking for the little boys' room and stuff.

816
01:09:46.020 --> 01:09:50.159
Like he is much more comic relief, isn't even than he is later.

817
01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:52.739
But he also has sort of very tender moments.

818
01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:54.420
Like, they're at the very end of Mysterio.

819
01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:58.260
Uh, he's saying to the the Lucy character.

820
01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:04.260
He's like, he's very, and it's, God, that, that scene thinking about that makes me, makes me, uh, uh, well up as well.

821
01:10:04.319 --> 01:10:07.500
He's like, he's very silly, but he's very sad also.

822
01:10:07.560 --> 01:10:21.720
Like, I love, I wish we could have had more of that, more of that, Nardo, more of that, like, that, that turn on a dime, and he's, you know, somehow, it says something extremely profound, like something very insightful about the doctor.

823
01:10:21.779 --> 01:10:25.500
I mean, spoiler, I think we'll get that towards the end of the season.

824
01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:29.159
I think the role that he plays in the final 2 parts really captures that.

825
01:10:29.220 --> 01:10:30.119
So good.

826
01:10:30.180 --> 01:10:33.539
I can't wait for that. is so amazing.

827
01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:35.159
No, I can't wait either.

828
01:10:35.220 --> 01:10:39.239
I've been enjoying the season I've just watched the Ice Warriors one and I love that.

829
01:10:39.300 --> 01:10:40.619
I love that one.

830
01:10:40.619 --> 01:10:41.159
I love that one.

831
01:10:41.220 --> 01:10:45.359
I do want to smack Mark Gadis about the head when we do that.

832
01:10:45.420 --> 01:10:46.680
Oh, you can't do that.

833
01:10:46.739 --> 01:10:48.300
I like eaters of light.

834
01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:48.840
How about that?

835
01:10:48.899 --> 01:10:49.920
Spoiler alert.

836
01:10:49.979 --> 01:10:50.819
I'm the only one.

837
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:51.659
Oh, I'm ready.

838
01:10:51.659 --> 01:10:52.920
I like ears of light as well.

839
01:10:52.979 --> 01:10:56.579
I'm ready and willing to...

840
01:10:56.640 --> 01:10:59.340
They could have made Nardolan elephants a running theme of the season.

841
01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:02.399
In the 1st scene of this episode, you could come out of the tiles and go, ooh, elephant.

842
01:11:02.699 --> 01:11:04.800
Get that elephant.

843
01:11:04.859 --> 01:11:09.899
See, in fact, the elephant in the ark is better than the elephant in thin ice, right?

844
01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:12.479
Because the elephant in the ark that is actually there.

845
01:11:12.539 --> 01:11:20.340
And you get that shot reverse shot where you sort of think, oh, stock footage of an elephant and then Dodo just walks up to it and they're in the same shot and she touches it.

846
01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:25.260
You don't get the big close-up of Dodo going, oh, look at you then, which would have only improved this.

847
01:11:25.500 --> 01:11:27.239
What did I say?

848
01:11:27.300 --> 01:11:28.260
Didn't I say dodo?

849
01:11:28.260 --> 01:11:29.100
I can't remember.

850
01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:29.579
You did.

851
01:11:29.699 --> 01:11:30.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's stupid.

852
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:34.560
My ears are always alert. mention it's of data.

853
01:11:34.619 --> 01:11:36.359
Have we had other elephants in Doctor Who?

854
01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:39.000
No, I don't think we have.

855
01:11:39.060 --> 01:11:43.380
Is there one in Animal and Botanic in the other...

856
01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:44.880
One of those...

857
01:11:44.939 --> 01:11:48.000
They pull open little drawing out as an elephant.

858
01:11:48.659 --> 01:11:50.939
There's been various trunks.

859
01:11:52.439 --> 01:11:58.439
What about the doctor saying that it's not a wrestling match unless...

860
01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:04.140
Oh, unless it's in 0 grade. with tentacles and magic spells.

861
01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:05.640
Oh my god, I love it. so good.

862
01:12:05.699 --> 01:12:09.840
And it's the way, but it's the, if you go back to that scene, it's the way he says magic spells.

863
01:12:09.899 --> 01:12:15.720
There's just like something, you should like melt a little bit because he's like, and magic and magic spells.

864
01:12:15.779 --> 01:12:17.579
Like there's something so charming about that.

865
01:12:18.479 --> 01:12:25.020
I also think the fact that when he's telling the children the story, it's about something that someone that comes along and cuts their thumbs off.

866
01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:28.079
They suck their thumbs like it's horrible.

867
01:12:28.140 --> 01:12:29.640
It's inappropriate.

868
01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:33.960
Heinrich Hoffman, it's a poem, like I said, from 18.

869
01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:42.659
I think it was published in German in 1845 and the, the, the child that's being lectured to in that story that gets his thumbs cut off is named Conrad.

870
01:12:42.720 --> 01:12:44.819
So a nice little shout out to our pal.