WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:20:20

1
00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:44.520
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety

2
00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:48.600
the only Doctor Who podcast which lives merely to increase capital

3
00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:52.320
and is allowed to live only insofar as the interest of the ruling

4
00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:53.399
class requires it.

5
00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:55.140
I'm Nathan.

6
00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:56.219
I'm Peter.

7
00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:57.420
I'm Simon.

8
00:00:57.479 --> 00:00:58.439
And I'm Kate.

9
00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:02.399
Well, this week we're being pursued by zombies while the people at

10
00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:05.579
head office find lethal new ways of increasing our productivity.

11
00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:10.680
Is it just a normal week at work or a dystopian Doctor Who satire

12
00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:11.819
called oxygen?

13
00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:28.439
I think I had a bit of a reverse todd experience on this one.

14
00:01:28.500 --> 00:01:29.640
A reverse to experience.

15
00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:31.019
And a reverse to experience.

16
00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:31.920
You like it the first time round.

17
00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:32.640
Stop experience.

18
00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:43.019
No, I thought that this was going to be better than it was when I

19
00:01:43.019 --> 00:01:45.659
just recently watched it.

20
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:51.480
It's Jamie Matheson, who I think is amazing, and I've liked all

21
00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:51.959
his things.

22
00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:55.739
I think I'm the only person on record to enjoy the girl who died.

23
00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:56.819
I think it's fantastic.

24
00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:59.939
I think basically, you know, everything that he's done has been

25
00:01:59.939 --> 00:02:00.299
really good.

26
00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:03.239
Um, and maybe it's not his fault.

27
00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:07.379
But for some reason, and I'm trying to put my finger on it.

28
00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.620
I hope we'll be able to do that in the next hour or so.

29
00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:13.080
I'm not quite sure this worked for me.

30
00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:19.139
I adore the entire season that has Bill and I have 2 favourites

31
00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:20.819
and they are oxygen and extremers.

32
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:23.099
Oh, snap.

33
00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:24.479
Yes.

34
00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:29.280
Oxygen I love because it's like, it's like pure science fiction

35
00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:32.580
something that you almost never get in Doctor Who.

36
00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:35.340
And this is what the whole story is about.

37
00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:38.340
Space is usually just a backdrop where, oh, look, we're on a

38
00:02:38.340 --> 00:02:39.240
spaceship, yeah, whatever.

39
00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:41.699
And we are not really interested in the fact that we're on a

40
00:02:41.699 --> 00:02:43.979
spaceship, we're interested in whatever else is going on.

41
00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:47.879
But this one starts with a speech about space wants to kill you.

42
00:02:47.939 --> 00:02:51.599
If you go into space, space is incredibly dangerous and then it

43
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.960
proceeds to demonstrate this by repeatedly killing Bill.

44
00:02:56.039 --> 00:02:59.819
And yeah, we get a big lecture at the start about how Bill will be

45
00:02:59.819 --> 00:03:00.120
killed.

46
00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:01.860
That tortured season 5 story.

47
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:02.759
They keep killing Bill.

48
00:03:03.300 --> 00:03:05.219
It's a bit like that.

49
00:03:05.340 --> 00:03:10.860
So, um, I love the fact that it is basically SF because of the

50
00:03:10.860 --> 00:03:12.419
rarity of that in Doctor Who.

51
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.300
I mean, I love it when Doctor Who mixes science fiction with all

52
00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:16.439
other genres as well.

53
00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:18.840
For me, it's like getting a little chocolate.

54
00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:22.139
Um, in that it doesn't have anything else in it.

55
00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:25.860
It is just about spacesuits and vacuum and the vacuum of space.

56
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:29.939
I think that was the brief from Stephen Mothat that he just wanted

57
00:03:29.939 --> 00:03:31.860
to make space dangerous again.

58
00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:34.259
There'd be too much sort of mucking around in space.

59
00:03:34.379 --> 00:03:36.780
And so he said to Jamie Matheson, so I interviewed Jamie Matheson

60
00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:39.719
for Doctor Magazine about this episode and did the preview for

61
00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:39.960
it.

62
00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:43.800
And so that's why the opening is all preoccupied with Space is

63
00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:44.219
Deadly.

64
00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:45.300
Space wants to kill you.

65
00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:50.580
And actually, Stephen Motha was the one who injected the idea that

66
00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:54.719
the suits would be the villain, as it was originally just a sort

67
00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:57.120
of a space zombie story, with zombies tramping around.

68
00:03:57.180 --> 00:03:59.879
He said, no, let's make it the suits, the suits are the thing that

69
00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:02.520
are animating these cadavers and are the enemy.

70
00:04:02.580 --> 00:04:07.740
I guess I guess for me, the problem is that the production can't

71
00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:13.500
quite do what the premise kind of needs it to do.

72
00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:17.699
Because we start sort of with that opening scene with the couple

73
00:04:17.699 --> 00:04:22.620
on the girder and you've got her sound isn't working and you've

74
00:04:22.620 --> 00:04:25.139
got the body sort of rolling towards them and stuff like that.

75
00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:27.720
And it looks like it's sort of promising gravity, I think.

76
00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:32.699
And there was some talk about gravity, like trying to make, you

77
00:04:32.699 --> 00:04:33.180
know, the film.

78
00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:36.600
And I think that's quite well realised.

79
00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:38.759
It's a great, in space, no one can hear you scream.

80
00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:40.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

81
00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.480
And in fact, it's quite good because there's a sort of fake out

82
00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.779
scream and then there's his final scream leading into the into the

83
00:04:45.779 --> 00:04:47.279
opening. we always love.

84
00:04:47.339 --> 00:04:48.180
It's really good.

85
00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.100
I think that is quite good But when we arrive, we're kind of

86
00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:56.819
pretty immediately just in the usual space corridors.

87
00:04:56.819 --> 00:05:00.540
And there's a really telling moment where Bill, who is always the

88
00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:03.540
sort of genre busting character says, oh, you know, this is just

89
00:05:03.540 --> 00:05:04.800
not really spicy.

90
00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:06.180
And then she looks out a window.

91
00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.060
And we don't see what she sees because obviously she's just

92
00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:09.839
looking out a window.

93
00:05:09.899 --> 00:05:10.740
Do you know what I mean?

94
00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:14.939
But we get the big pull back, you know, with her face and then the

95
00:05:14.939 --> 00:05:16.379
entirety of that station.

96
00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.620
And so it makes fun of Star Trek explicitly.

97
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:20.399
Do you know what I mean?

98
00:05:20.459 --> 00:05:21.839
With the whoosh whoosh doors and stuff.

99
00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:22.319
Oh, yes.

100
00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:26.639
But it's a little bit too like Star Trek.

101
00:05:26.699 --> 00:05:31.740
And for a story where the premise is that oxygen has been rationed

102
00:05:31.740 --> 00:05:36.839
that there's artificial scarcity of oxygen, it never looks like

103
00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:40.980
that, because they've got invisible force fields on, because I

104
00:05:40.980 --> 00:05:45.180
think what must have happened is the intention must have been that

105
00:05:45.180 --> 00:05:46.620
they would wear the helmets all the time.

106
00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.379
And then they realised that they realised that would be the top

107
00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:51.000
never works.

108
00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:52.259
No that would never work.

109
00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.360
And you can see the helmets are designed.

110
00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:57.480
They're much more transparent than a normal space helmet.

111
00:05:57.540 --> 00:06:01.319
And I think they're designed to be as unobtrusive as possible.

112
00:06:01.379 --> 00:06:04.139
They should have gone for that full sort of upturned fishbowl

113
00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:04.379
effect.

114
00:06:04.379 --> 00:06:07.259
Yeah, yeah, the moonbags, where they just had a pee.

115
00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.560
Maybe the ones from terminus, but they don't actually seal around

116
00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:11.040
the net.

117
00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:13.019
Yes, for example.

118
00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:16.800
Yeah, so and so they're just sort of wandering around talking as

119
00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:17.819
usual and stuff.

120
00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:22.379
And so it's not quite enough unlike other Doctor Who stories set

121
00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:23.699
on spaceships, I think.

122
00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:26.579
Do you feel that the lack of the helmet lends a kind of

123
00:06:26.579 --> 00:06:28.079
vulnerability to the characters?

124
00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:29.160
Yes, I do.

125
00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.319
What about hair raising, even though you know they have the force

126
00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:31.860
field?

127
00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.500
They're walking around without the helmet and then they must put

128
00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:38.579
the helmet on and of course it pays off in Bill's exciting journey

129
00:06:38.579 --> 00:06:39.420
into vacuum.

130
00:06:39.899 --> 00:06:42.000
It's funny, I did that this morning.

131
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:44.220
Just the living room.

132
00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:45.959
How can that can be an exciting journey?

133
00:06:47.579 --> 00:06:49.860
Like I guess so.

134
00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:55.019
But I just think that because the lack of oxygen isn't sold to us

135
00:06:55.019 --> 00:06:55.560
visually.

136
00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:59.399
We're just told about it because it just looks like everyone's

137
00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.699
wandering around with no helmets on talking to one another and

138
00:07:02.699 --> 00:07:04.800
being able to hear one another and all of that.

139
00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:06.660
Like there's just no visual evidence.

140
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:09.360
You know, straight away, oh, we've got artificial gravity.

141
00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:12.060
Oh, we've got invisible force fields that keep the air in.

142
00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:17.819
And so all of the really scary spaceness can't be realised and was

143
00:07:17.819 --> 00:07:19.019
never going to be able to be realised.

144
00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.000
I'm going to agree with Kate on that.

145
00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:23.699
I think it's actually a little bit unnerving, the fact that

146
00:07:23.699 --> 00:07:26.100
they're wandering around this Ellis environment and they don't

147
00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:30.120
have physical helmet on and you think that at any point this could

148
00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:31.860
turn off and all of a sudden they can't breathe.

149
00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:33.060
I found that quite eerie.

150
00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:36.899
I don't mind either way, actually, because I see what you're

151
00:07:36.899 --> 00:07:40.079
saying, Nathan, but I also, I don't kind of get what you guys are

152
00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.379
saying either, Kate and Peter, because it's like the web planet

153
00:07:43.379 --> 00:07:44.939
where they go out with the jacket sock.

154
00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:46.680
Like, it's just a kind of a conceit at the beginning and then you

155
00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:47.279
kind of forget about it.

156
00:07:47.339 --> 00:07:49.139
It's really...

157
00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:49.379
Exactly.

158
00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.500
We're never made we're never not made aware of the fact that

159
00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:55.740
they're in this confined space station and there's a limited

160
00:07:55.740 --> 00:07:56.699
supply of oxygen.

161
00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:58.980
And I think that's the kind of the underlying thing.

162
00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:04.920
I think the story, the episode has a series of other flaws, even

163
00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.399
though it has that great promising staff, and I think there's much

164
00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:09.540
of it which is really nicely made.

165
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:14.759
I know, Nathan, you're never a fan of the idea that, oh, this is a

166
00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:16.259
very ordinary or poor episode.

167
00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:19.259
I know let's make it better by making it longer.

168
00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:21.300
But I actually think it could be.

169
00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:22.199
War games.

170
00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:26.100
I think that this is a case where it could work.

171
00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:28.680
I don't mean just stretching it out to 2 episodes, but I'm never

172
00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:32.639
excited by all the kind of breathless running through corridors.

173
00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:33.840
It's like that does.

174
00:08:33.899 --> 00:08:36.120
I mean, I want people talking urgently in corridors rather than

175
00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:37.200
just running through corridors.

176
00:08:37.259 --> 00:08:39.120
And there's no setup.

177
00:08:39.179 --> 00:08:40.500
I don't feel there's enough of a setup.

178
00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:43.860
Like, if it was an old style, the length of an old style 3 or 4

179
00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:47.100
passer, and the doctor in Bill Nardo arrived on this space station

180
00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:48.960
where there'd been a couple of deaths, and there was a couple of

181
00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:50.639
malfunctions with the suits, and they didn't know what was going

182
00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:53.159
on, but it was still basically a populated space station, and they

183
00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:55.919
all started being picked off over the course of it.

184
00:08:55.980 --> 00:08:59.340
And then in the last sort of 30, 40 minutes, you then get what is

185
00:08:59.340 --> 00:09:02.399
effectively this episode, I'd have had much more engagement with

186
00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:02.639
it.

187
00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:03.600
I'd have cared.

188
00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:06.299
My problem with it is I just don't care.

189
00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:09.299
All this stuff is happening and I'm just not that interested.

190
00:09:09.419 --> 00:09:11.820
It's a symptom of modern Doctor Who, isn't it?

191
00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.179
They always cut off the 1st episode of an old 4 parter, and so you

192
00:09:15.179 --> 00:09:17.460
arrive somewhere into events rather than at the start of the week

193
00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:19.379
which can work really well sometimes, and there are some great

194
00:09:19.379 --> 00:09:22.980
examples of that where it just is, you can do a 45 minute self

195
00:09:22.379 --> 00:09:24.059
contained episode, and it works perfectly.

196
00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.220
And I've said that, but this is just one of those ones where

197
00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:28.259
because I haven't had that buildup with the characters.

198
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:29.519
I'm just not invested with what's going on.

199
00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:33.539
The only one I was invested in was dah, Ren, oh, how...

200
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.120
Yes, which I've just racistly pronounced in.

201
00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.240
We don't categorise people by the box.

202
00:09:39.299 --> 00:09:41.100
So that was nice.

203
00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:44.279
He's the 1st of 2 blue people this season.

204
00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:49.200
And the other blue person is in World Enough and Time, and his

205
00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:54.179
name is George, but pronounced in a space way. and spelled in a

206
00:09:54.179 --> 00:09:54.659
space, right?

207
00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:55.980
Has he got an apostrophe in it?

208
00:09:56.700 --> 00:09:58.019
I really wish it had.

209
00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:01.139
It's just got J's in it.

210
00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:07.139
So they're kind of, and they're not human, I think, is the idea.

211
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.220
But that little moment, I think, is actually really wonderful

212
00:10:11.220 --> 00:10:13.679
where Bill gets to be racist.

213
00:10:13.740 --> 00:10:16.860
And then she goes, I'm sorry, I'm normally on the receiving end

214
00:10:16.860 --> 00:10:18.779
and he can't understand why that would be.

215
00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.519
I think that's just terrific.

216
00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:22.799
Yeah, it's like it's like this Australian immigrant experience.

217
00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:26.100
Like, you know, 1st of all, we're nasty about the Greeks and the

218
00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:26.460
Italians.

219
00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:29.879
Then we're nasty about the Vietnamese and Chinese and now we're

220
00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:31.860
nasty about people of Middle Eastern Norwich. you know what I

221
00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:31.980
mean?

222
00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:32.639
It's that kind of thing.

223
00:10:32.700 --> 00:10:36.600
It's when the new species comes or the new race comes along, all

224
00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:37.919
the others are suddenly accepted.

225
00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:39.240
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. right.

226
00:10:39.299 --> 00:10:40.740
They establishment.

227
00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:41.519
That's the establishment.

228
00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:42.720
Yes they've become the establishment.

229
00:10:42.779 --> 00:10:43.559
They join in with us.

230
00:10:43.620 --> 00:10:44.220
Yes, exactly.

231
00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.820
And I love that they wait for a comedy beat till the end of that

232
00:10:47.820 --> 00:10:50.279
scene for Nadal to throw in some of my best friends are blue.

233
00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:52.200
No, it's better than that.

234
00:10:52.259 --> 00:10:54.779
He says some of my best friends are blueish.

235
00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:00.840
It's a nice way of viewing it.

236
00:11:00.899 --> 00:11:02.039
Oh, it's so awkward.

237
00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:07.740
I think that actually, I understand what everyone's saying. have

238
00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:09.000
quite a high opinion of this episode.

239
00:11:09.059 --> 00:11:12.659
I think it is dripping in atmosphere, which, you know, you

240
00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:15.240
wouldn't think being in a vacuum, but yes, it is dripping in

241
00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:16.919
atmosphere, and I think that is its own reward.

242
00:11:16.980 --> 00:11:20.039
I think if you can set something up that has so much of an

243
00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:21.240
unsettling feel to it.

244
00:11:21.299 --> 00:11:21.840
Go for it.

245
00:11:21.899 --> 00:11:24.840
Yeah, yeah, that can often sell something for me, but for some

246
00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:26.700
reason, as I said, I just don't care.

247
00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.220
Like, it's atmosphere for the sake of atmosphere. not feeling it.

248
00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:45.179
Something I want to talk about is the skull.

249
00:11:45.419 --> 00:11:47.100
The skull.

250
00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:48.179
Oh, and the chalk.

251
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.120
Oh, the skull is an image that appears throughout this entire

252
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.580
episode in different ways.

253
00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:55.919
We get the doctor drawing a skull on the board, right?

254
00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:59.460
That's a big obvious skull, but those helmets that they're not

255
00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:02.399
wearing, and in particular, the one that pops off the guy to

256
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:05.940
reveal that there's nobody inside the suit, that's a skull.

257
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:10.559
Bill is wearing a little skull patch that says, wow, next to it.

258
00:12:10.620 --> 00:12:11.460
Wow.

259
00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:13.919
Which is a little bit like saying, yeah, I'm excited.

260
00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:16.379
Let's go to space as well, you know, where all the skulls are

261
00:12:16.379 --> 00:12:17.759
because everybody dies.

262
00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:23.340
The big moment in the cold open where Ivan sees the helmet just

263
00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:25.559
sort of coming to shop.

264
00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:26.580
Here's her scarf.

265
00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:27.299
Yeah, so good.

266
00:12:28.259 --> 00:12:32.940
And that just that image of the head or the dead head or whatever

267
00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:36.539
just keeps picking up again and again all through it, which gave

268
00:12:36.539 --> 00:12:38.340
me the creeps when I began to notice it.

269
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.820
When they go, oh no, they're going to vent all of the oxygen that

270
00:12:41.820 --> 00:12:44.580
we've got out of the spaceship, we must run back to the TARDAS.

271
00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:48.360
The shot is actually over the top of that helmet that's been

272
00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.740
popped off the guy, as though to say death. is coming.

273
00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:55.259
And I thought, that's jolly clever, isn't it?

274
00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:57.059
It's such a good image as well.

275
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.120
They've been to this well before in Stephen Moffat's silence in

276
00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.600
the library, which is skullheads in Spaces. yes, yes.

277
00:13:03.659 --> 00:13:07.860
I want to compare it briefly to sleep no more. favourably, I

278
00:13:07.860 --> 00:13:08.039
hope.

279
00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:09.059
Unfavourably.

280
00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:14.039
So one of the things that struck me, and it's a thing that Simon

281
00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:17.759
said about sleep no more is the kind of strange world building

282
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:19.559
that sleep no more does.

283
00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:22.620
And like we're around Neptune.

284
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:27.480
It seems to be like, perhaps we're moving out towards Pluto just

285
00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:30.059
in time to do the sun.

286
00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:34.860
And everything, like something has happened to the inner solar

287
00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:37.259
system and people are awful.

288
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:42.299
Like we genetically engineer kind of soldier slaves and stuff and

289
00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:46.019
just generally something has gone horribly wrong and it's subtle

290
00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:46.799
world building.

291
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:49.620
And there's a word.

292
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:49.980
Yeah.

293
00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:53.580
Yeah, it's, but there's, like there isn't any of that here.

294
00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:54.539
No.

295
00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.299
I think the world, and that's one of the reasons why I really like

296
00:13:57.299 --> 00:14:00.600
sleep no more, even though it's not perfect over this, which is

297
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:04.019
not terrible, if I can put it in those terms, but sleep no more, I

298
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:07.559
think, does a much better job at creating a dystopian future.

299
00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:10.740
And I think the dystopian future that's created in this episode

300
00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:12.720
has far less depth.

301
00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:16.379
It's far more trite in terms of the sort of the various anti

302
00:14:15.539 --> 00:14:17.700
capitalist kind of mentions that are made.

303
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:18.840
It's a bit like, oh, really?

304
00:14:18.899 --> 00:14:21.299
I mean, that's just, can we think a bit more about this and just

305
00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:23.279
make it a bit more interesting if you want to sell that message?

306
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:24.360
Because that's not coming through.

307
00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:27.179
Sleep no more does it so much better, I think.

308
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:29.879
And it has a sort of anti-capitalist message as well.

309
00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:33.120
I mean, the problem is created by monetising work as sleeve.

310
00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:33.840
Yes, I know.

311
00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:37.139
But it doesn't, but for me, that doesn't irritate me in the same

312
00:14:37.139 --> 00:14:38.340
way that this irritates me.

313
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.440
It just seems to be done much more interestingly and much more

314
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:40.919
cleverly.

315
00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:42.720
And also, I think placing it around Neptune.

316
00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:45.840
Some of those shots in Sleep No More. where, you know, there's a, I

317
00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:47.820
think it's a breach, whatever, and you can see Neptune there.

318
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:51.120
It's when the station's starting to fall into Neptune at one point

319
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:51.480
I think.

320
00:14:51.539 --> 00:14:53.820
So effective and so frightening.

321
00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:55.740
And that's where you get that thing of space is there to kill

322
00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:55.980
you.

323
00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:59.100
You know, I feel that much more in sleep no more than I do in

324
00:14:59.100 --> 00:14:59.519
oxygen.

325
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:03.000
The reason that I have a soft spot for sleep no more, even though

326
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:04.259
it's got snot monsters in it.

327
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.879
Um, and it's the science in it, science fiction is incredibly non

328
00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:08.879
scientific.

329
00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:11.340
So I sit there sort of drumming my fingers a bit.

330
00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.379
But I love the future.

331
00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:19.019
I like the kind of almost throwaway, quickly referenced world

332
00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:19.500
building.

333
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.259
You know, I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.

334
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.799
And the fact that it is Neptune and not planet...

335
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:26.100
Yeah.

336
00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:26.340
Yeah.

337
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:26.879
Yeah, exactly.

338
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:27.899
And that's what's missing here.

339
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:29.399
Yeah, this isn't anywhere.

340
00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:31.080
They're mining somehow.

341
00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:33.840
It's fine. mining some asteroid, could be astroid. could be

342
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:35.039
another solar system. doesn't matter.

343
00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:36.899
And I don't think I don't think it's the fact that it's not

344
00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:37.679
Neptune is the problem.

345
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:40.620
It's just the fact that I don't feel, I don't, I can't imagine

346
00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:45.840
what the society is out there back on earth back in civilisation

347
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.139
which has created this situation where the company has made the

348
00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:50.820
suits kill the workers.

349
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.720
Whereas I can in sleep no more, imagine what the rest of the

350
00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:54.960
world.

351
00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:56.399
What's happening in the universe?

352
00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:58.620
And I know what you mean, because sleep and what, even though I

353
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:01.440
don't think it's a very good episode, ties into kind of a larger

354
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.279
arc of doctors, so to speak, of Doctor Who's future and like what

355
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:07.740
the future is like in the show, whereas this feels like a little

356
00:16:07.740 --> 00:16:10.679
bit like its own thing and sort of a cul-de-sac, I think.

357
00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.500
And that's because Margatus, as well, writes, sleep no more.

358
00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:14.519
And he's concerned with that kind of thing.

359
00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.639
It's like in Empress of Mars coming up where he takes care to kind

360
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.279
of weave that into a future which has the Galactic Federation and

361
00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:21.120
Alpha Centauri.

362
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.659
Yeah, and I don't think every Doctor Who story needs to do that

363
00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:28.379
because the reason that we've got that now is stories that didn't

364
00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:28.799
do that.

365
00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.759
Do you know what I mean?

366
00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:32.940
So all of that's okay, I think.

367
00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:34.860
But it is so thin.

368
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:36.360
And when it comes to the resolution.

369
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:39.899
I mean, if we could just go to head office and complain and that

370
00:16:39.899 --> 00:16:42.779
would bring down capitalism, I don't know why we haven't done that

371
00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:43.799
already, honestly.

372
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.299
All that, and that's what I'm sort of talking about is just so

373
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:48.960
inelegant.

374
00:16:49.019 --> 00:16:53.279
It's like, for instance, the oxygen thing.

375
00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:56.340
It doesn't make sense that the company would vent the oxygen, which

376
00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:57.360
is a precious resource.

377
00:16:57.419 --> 00:16:59.279
They would pump it back into their storage tanks.

378
00:16:59.340 --> 00:17:01.259
They take it so that they can sell it.

379
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.440
It doesn't make sense that the company would kill the workers

380
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.380
because they're consuming oxygen.

381
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:09.180
They've only got so many breaths left or whatever it is.

382
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.140
It makes more sense, surely, if if they're just charged for it in

383
00:17:13.140 --> 00:17:16.680
that sun makers kind of way, where, 0 my god, I'm just going to be

384
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.259
absolutely up to my eyeballs in debt because of the number of

385
00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:21.180
breaths I've taken and I will never escape it.

386
00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:22.680
And that's that's got a much...

387
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.240
I can't retire because I breathe too much.

388
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:25.680
Yes, sort of.

389
00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:28.500
And I think there's something about that which is far more, I

390
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:30.599
think, the message that they want to tell, whereas this is just

391
00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:31.380
kind of trite.

392
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:32.519
Oh, big companies are evil.

393
00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:33.000
Ha ha ha.

394
00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:34.680
It just kind of like, oh come on, we can do better than that.

395
00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:37.559
A thing that doesn't make any sense is the reason that they want

396
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.440
to kill off the workers is that they've been unproductive.

397
00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:43.019
Like they can't be productive because of things broken.

398
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.720
Because the conveyor's broken. doesn't make any sense at all.

399
00:17:45.779 --> 00:17:47.700
They would be perfectly productive.

400
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:50.880
If the conveyor was working, Why would you kill off the... they're

401
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:52.799
killing off those guys because they're the next ship that's

402
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:52.980
coming.

403
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.099
Well, the next is going to it's surely got the conveyor repair.

404
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.859
Well, no, I assume they're sending the conveyor repair people.

405
00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:02.099
I thought that they were just sending suits that didn't have to

406
00:18:02.099 --> 00:18:03.240
consume oxygen.

407
00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:04.140
Do you know what I mean?

408
00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:05.039
Possibly.

409
00:18:05.099 --> 00:18:06.059
Yes, maybe they've decided that.

410
00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.640
But if you think about the way a company works.

411
00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:15.539
I mean, for most of my adult life, and I'm fine, just a second, I

412
00:18:15.539 --> 00:18:17.940
have been, you know, like, are you that old?

413
00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:24.180
No, I just mean, like most people, I'm, you know, 2 missed

414
00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:27.059
paycheques away from sort of starvation and homelessness.

415
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:28.019
Do you know what I mean?

416
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:29.819
Like most people.

417
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:30.720
Yeah, I'm fine.

418
00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:33.900
But, but do you know what I mean?

419
00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:38.279
Like, people live without... savings, you know, all of that sort

420
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:38.640
of thing.

421
00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:43.559
And so the idea that finding a branch somewhere is unprofitable

422
00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:49.980
and just closing it down does in fact does happen and does lead to

423
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:51.900
kind of misery and stuff like that.

424
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.299
And here, obviously, it sort of amped up.

425
00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:56.880
And, you know, like I did a little bit of research.

426
00:18:56.940 --> 00:19:00.599
How are they charging people for oxygen to do their job.

427
00:19:00.660 --> 00:19:02.279
In New South Wales.

428
00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:06.599
The only reason that, for instance, that it's government

429
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.839
regulation and union involvement, that means, for instance, that

430
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.440
retail workers don't have to pay for their own uniforms and that

431
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.619
we would have had that if there hadn't been some kind of

432
00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:17.279
intervention.

433
00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:22.500
And so, you know, the idea that that's a, the, that is the usual

434
00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:25.799
Doctor Who thing where we heightened that and we, we turned it

435
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.019
into killing the workers. you know what I mean?

436
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.319
Because with 100s of years into the future and capitalism has got

437
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.779
worse and worse and we want to make a point in a sort of obvious

438
00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:34.140
way.

439
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:39.000
And it also gives the doctor a resolution where he just makes the

440
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.519
base profitable or not profitable.

441
00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:43.859
He makes destroying the best. destroying them.

442
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.660
Yeah, he makes killing them unprofitable.

443
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:46.259
That's right.

444
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:46.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

445
00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.599
No, I know what you're saying.

446
00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:50.339
And you know, when you create a dystopian future.

447
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.740
Usually you're trying to make a comment on the present.

448
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:53.700
Yes, okay.

449
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.779
And whilst, yes, you know, companies are closing things here and

450
00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:00.359
there from time to time and people lose jobs and that's all full

451
00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:01.259
et cetera, et cetera.

452
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:04.740
But it's like the way they're doing it here isn't sort of, isn't

453
00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:07.559
really talking to that in the way that I think it could be, if

454
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:08.700
that's what it's trying to do.

455
00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:11.460
I think it's just it's just got a very simplistic notion and I'm

456
00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:13.920
fine with the idea of, okay, we're creating this dystopian future

457
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:17.880
where capitalism has regressed to, you know, the way it was in the

458
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:20.880
19th century where workers were paid next to nothing and had to

459
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.339
pay for their own uniforms and had to work 18 hour days, whatever

460
00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:23.640
it is.

461
00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:25.079
I don't have a problem with that.

462
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:27.359
I just think it's to do with the elegance of how these things are

463
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.279
done and I think it's just so inelegant.

464
00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:31.500
I think there's actually a better story that can be told with the

465
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:34.619
suits killing people, but I wonder whether we weren't actually

466
00:20:34.619 --> 00:20:37.079
able to tell it when this was made and I can talk about that if

467
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:37.380
you like.

468
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:39.119
Go on.

469
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:39.539
Okay.

470
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:40.680
AI.

471
00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:44.220
If this if this episode was made now, it would be because the

472
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:45.480
suits, it's like the paper clip thing.

473
00:20:45.539 --> 00:20:48.599
You know, if you tell if you tell an AI to make as many paper

474
00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.200
clips as it can, it ends up turning the entire earth into paper

475
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.000
clips, including all the humans, right?

476
00:20:54.059 --> 00:20:56.819
It's that thing of, you know, you need to have a restraint on the

477
00:20:56.819 --> 00:20:59.339
AI to say, well, don't kill any people and don't do this and don't

478
00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:00.359
do that, et cetera, et cetera.

479
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.119
So in some respects, you could create an episode around the paper

480
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.259
clip problem where the suits have got AI in them to try and be

481
00:21:07.259 --> 00:21:09.839
more efficient with the mining operation.

482
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:14.220
And at some point, the suits realise I'm going to be able to do

483
00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:17.220
this a hell of a lot better and more efficiently if I don't have a

484
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:19.740
human to worry about because they have to take rests and they have

485
00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:21.539
to sleep and they have to eat and so on like that.

486
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:23.940
And maybe you could have them in the company, the sort of company

487
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:28.920
not having bothered to insert the algorithm to the AI to, because

488
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.920
someone was bored that day or they forgot to, they knew about it

489
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.380
but they hadn't done anything about it, which actually would be a

490
00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:38.700
far better commentary on current society in terms of companies

491
00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:42.000
either wilfully or neglectfully making mistakes like that.

492
00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:44.279
Oh, Simon, what you're describing is this.

493
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:46.079
They put humans into the suits.

494
00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:48.599
At 1st it looks like the humans are the workers and the suits are

495
00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:50.579
just helped for them. but they've got the AI.

496
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.759
Humans are training their AI to do their job.

497
00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:55.619
Yes, the humans are the restraint.

498
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:56.640
Yes, yes, yes.

499
00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.880
And so in the end, the AI finally works out how to mine an

500
00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:01.440
asteroid and says, well, that's you, mate.

501
00:22:01.500 --> 00:22:01.680
Sorry.

502
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:02.160
Exactly.

503
00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:03.480
And that's...

504
00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:04.140
That's a bad story.

505
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:05.880
Now I don't think we were thinking about that when this episode

506
00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:06.660
was being made.

507
00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:07.980
No, because this is actually very new.

508
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:10.859
AI is actually literally mentioned in the script.

509
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:15.599
We get asked what's the AI like and someone says it's as dumb as a

510
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.519
rock and then, well, can it learn?

511
00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:18.660
Do you know what I mean?

512
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:20.579
So there is some sort of talk about that.

513
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.759
Like, I don't know quite what's happening with Bill where her suit

514
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.359
does its own thing, that sort of terrifying moment where it takes

515
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:31.019
her helmet off and she's saying, I'm not doing that.

516
00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:33.180
And that's when I was thinking about this, actually, during that

517
00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:34.980
sequence, because I thought that's the thing that's the most

518
00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:36.420
frightening moment for me.

519
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:39.660
And then if I can just give a shout out to the sequence that

520
00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:41.099
follows that, which is utterly brilliant.

521
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:41.460
I think.

522
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:42.299
Oh, that's good.

523
00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:43.500
Incredible.

524
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:44.700
Absolutely incredible.

525
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:48.900
Full of 1st the blurry bit and then the moment where the doctor

526
00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:49.500
turns around.

527
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:51.359
I just about fell off the sofa.

528
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:54.000
And the sound design, which is immaculate throughout this

529
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:54.299
episode.

530
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:54.900
Exactly, yeah.

531
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:56.039
Although I would have liked more silence.

532
00:22:56.099 --> 00:22:57.059
Yes, me too.

533
00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:59.940
Again, if you're trying to sell, there's that moment, even in the

534
00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:03.359
opening thing where you're outside, you can hear Ellie speaking

535
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.539
inside her helmet and it's kind of you're trying to sell us that

536
00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:07.920
there's no oxygen here.

537
00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:11.339
And I know, I know I'm not an idiot, like I want spaceships to

538
00:23:11.339 --> 00:23:12.420
whoosh through.

539
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.339
We all do.

540
00:23:15.059 --> 00:23:19.559
But here, you know, it's so much the point of the episode is the

541
00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:23.940
scarcity of oxygen and the deliberate artificial scarcity of

542
00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:26.400
oxygen, which is used to up its price.

543
00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:30.420
You know, the way that people in company towns had to buy things

544
00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:32.339
from the company store. exactly.

545
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.700
You know, like all of that's so important to what the things

546
00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:38.519
trying to say in the atmosphere, it's trying to create, and that's

547
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:41.279
just another thing where I think it falls down a bit.

548
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.359
It's me against the world here.

549
00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:46.079
I agree with you.

550
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:50.819
I don't dislike it. as I was saying, last week in knock, knock.

551
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.339
Well, for me, I didn't think I made it clearly last week, but I

552
00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:56.519
think now this is the 4th episode in a row, which is, for me, it's

553
00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:56.700
fine.

554
00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:01.500
Again, it's the 4th episode in a row, which is annoyingly slightly

555
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:04.200
less than fine, might be a better way of putting it because it

556
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:06.900
could be better with a little bit more thought and a little bit

557
00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:09.779
more draft and there's so much effort that's gone into it and well

558
00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:11.880
perhaps I'm like knock knock last week, which wasn't brilliantly

559
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:12.119
made.

560
00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:12.779
We were talking about.

561
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.140
But this is obviously really well made and I've thought about that

562
00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:19.500
but I don't think they've just thought about properly about the

563
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:23.220
episode, the story, the how does this actually work?

564
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.380
And I think that's what makes it unsatisfactory for me.

565
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.960
Yes, I think this is extremely well made.

566
00:24:28.019 --> 00:24:30.240
This is Charles Palmer who did human nature.

567
00:24:30.299 --> 00:24:32.940
And one of his tricks on human nature, the reason that human

568
00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.940
nature looks so great is a lot of the effects are in camera.

569
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.579
So there's not a lot of kind of CGI there.

570
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.039
And I think the same, apart from the bits which are obviously have

571
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:42.480
to be CGI in this.

572
00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:44.819
You get a lot of stuff which seems to be practically realised on

573
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:47.220
the set, and I think that lends it a real immediacy.

574
00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:52.019
Space suits and things are very chunky and clunky and you really

575
00:24:52.019 --> 00:24:54.660
need that feeling of hard metal.

576
00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:55.980
That's right.

577
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:59.880
They are a bit rubbery, though, so the mag, so they?

578
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:02.579
But they're not a bit fakey.

579
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.099
It's funny.

580
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.200
All I could think about was 1st contact.

581
00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:10.079
You know, we had like seven.

582
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.559
Like we have 7 years of Star Trek, The Next Generation, and no one

583
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.319
puts a spacesuit on as far as I...

584
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:21.000
So suddenly we're walking on the outside of the enterprise and we

585
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.960
have scenes, you know, Zed, and say walk on the deflected dish and

586
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:25.440
stuff like that.

587
00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:27.000
And it's really good.

588
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:29.339
Like, that's actually really sort of terrific.

589
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:33.059
And Doctor Who has more space suits in it, of course, than Star

590
00:25:33.059 --> 00:25:33.720
Trek did.

591
00:25:33.779 --> 00:25:36.660
Do you miss the old baggy orange ones?

592
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:37.680
Yeah, bitch.

593
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.500
These were very crisp space suits in oxygen.

594
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:45.119
They look really like, you know, the Ferrari of spacesuits rather

595
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.880
than like you were wearing a huge orange bag.

596
00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:52.259
I also like the thing where, you know, bizarrely, there are

597
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:56.039
practical lights inside the space helmet shining in the wearer's

598
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.480
face, which would be terrible.

599
00:25:57.539 --> 00:25:58.859
I think...

600
00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:01.200
You're real alive.

601
00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:02.460
But it always looks so great.

602
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:05.160
You know, like how do they stop them fogging up?

603
00:26:05.819 --> 00:26:10.740
That hilarious thing with not toll where Bill says what happens if

604
00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:13.259
I throw up in my space helmet doing her usual thing.

605
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:14.940
And he just says colour and smell.

606
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.039
Colour and smell.

607
00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:34.559
Can we talk about Nardole?

608
00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:36.779
So this is the first time Nard Doll join?

609
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:38.039
Yes, actually gets to go too.

610
00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:40.980
Yeah, because he's been the killjoy. been the person who's been

611
00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:44.700
trying to prevent the doctor from going anywhere and clearly he's

612
00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:47.339
just decided that he can't do that or something.

613
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:48.660
He just fails, doesn't he?

614
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.880
The doctor sends him off to Birmingham for British.

615
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:51.299
Chris.

616
00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:58.980
I like his, he's kind of got a, 2 different faces going in this

617
00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:03.779
story where there's the nardol who's going, ooh, all the time and

618
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:05.880
you know, panicking about things and worrying about things.

619
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:08.039
And, you know, we're going back to the TARDIS type of stuff.

620
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.400
But there's also the nardol who says very quietly, I'm a bit cross

621
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:12.180
with you, doctor.

622
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:14.460
And you actually think, oh, that's a bit frightening.

623
00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:17.400
Yeah, this is where, yeah, and I remember the 1st time around.

624
00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:21.359
This is, it was only about now that I started thinking, okay, this

625
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:21.900
is now working.

626
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:26.460
I can like this because I was annoyed by the kind of, this is just

627
00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:27.960
one of those stupid comic relief characters.

628
00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:32.400
I really liked his way of trying to get them back to the Tatas

629
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:33.900
which is a really not always.

630
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:34.799
It was absolutely perfect.

631
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:36.539
You know, it's nice and cosy.

632
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:41.279
It's nice Like, I thought that worked really well.

633
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:43.079
And it was him doing the companion.

634
00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:45.359
Let's go back to Thitis, and then Bill agrees with him.

635
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:48.960
And he had always been at a remove from Bill.

636
00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:51.480
You know, like he would always talk to the doctor when Bill was in

637
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:52.140
the room.

638
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:53.099
Almost as if she wasn't there.

639
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:54.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

640
00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:57.000
We see it in full flourish next week in Extremist where suddenly

641
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.420
Bill and Nardol have lots of scenes together and are friends and

642
00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:01.859
it's a really great odd coupling.

643
00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:02.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

644
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:06.119
And isn't that so much more rewarding when they've had a period of

645
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:07.559
not really being like that.

646
00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:09.660
Like they're not just friends from day one.

647
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:10.559
Yeah they've grown together.

648
00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:14.640
I think, like most comedians, Matt Lucas, his dramatic talents are

649
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.940
underused in Docsuit because he is mostly light relief as Nardol

650
00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:19.500
but he can do a lot with his face.

651
00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:23.819
And so that scene where Bill can't breathe and you're having all

652
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:27.539
of those sort of slow motion looks, but you get one big close-up

653
00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:29.819
of him in his helmet looking at her with concern.

654
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:31.259
And it's an amazing shot.

655
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.319
It's completely written all over his face and that proves his

656
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:34.859
value, I think.

657
00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.740
Comedians are often the best actors.

658
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:38.579
Yes.

659
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:40.799
It's an awful lot of examples of that, yeah.

660
00:28:40.859 --> 00:28:41.880
See, Catherine Tate.

661
00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:42.720
See, Catherine Tate.

662
00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:43.500
See Catherine Tate.

663
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.500
But see, also, I can't think of any other...

664
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.079
Robin Williams, for example, yeah, it's a very good example, yeah.

665
00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:51.000
They're known for comedy at first.

666
00:28:51.059 --> 00:28:53.819
And then suddenly they do that film and all that television and

667
00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:54.299
you go, yes.

668
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:57.000
Because they're delivering dramatic performances, but being

669
00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:57.299
funny.

670
00:28:57.359 --> 00:28:58.019
Yeah.

671
00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:01.559
And the thing about a successful comedian is they know about

672
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:06.000
timing and timing is underrated in dramatic performance as well.

673
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:10.319
And I think too often, especially in modern television, in film

674
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:13.200
everyone's especially in this kind of genre, everyone's just in a

675
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.819
rush to get their lines out.

676
00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:17.400
We said it about David Suchet last episode.

677
00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:20.339
He just knows exactly what and how to place words.

678
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:20.640
Yeah.

679
00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:25.619
Yeah, I mean, we we kind of spoke about how Nadol doesn't really

680
00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:28.980
fit properly into the sort of list of Doctor Who companions.

681
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:33.359
You know, he's not really quite...

682
00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:35.880
He is in the opening credits, and he does travel with a doctor

683
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:37.859
more than once, and all of those.

684
00:29:37.859 --> 00:29:40.259
Also, somewhere between a Sarah Kingdom and a Sergeant Benton.

685
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:44.579
Yeah, he's above Sergeant Benton, surely.

686
00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:47.640
That means he's above Mike, yeah, it's right.

687
00:29:47.700 --> 00:29:48.180
Oh, yes.

688
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:49.259
Yeah, yeah, definitely above.

689
00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:51.539
I would have thought most people would be above my kids.

690
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:52.200
Oh okay.

691
00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:55.680
Sorry, on top of my face.

692
00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:00.779
He's no longer with a snerl's going to suit.

693
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:02.819
But delighted.

694
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.599
You know, he does get a proper kind of a rival.

695
00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:08.400
We never see him agree to join the doctor.

696
00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:11.279
All of that sort of, we start with this sort of pre-existing

697
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.880
relationship. that's been going on for decades, you know, like 50

698
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:15.839
70 years, we believe.

699
00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:19.200
It's like, Mel, just without decades.

700
00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:23.339
So I actually am really enjoying him being sort of brought in and

701
00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:25.380
I do think it works really well. it works really well.

702
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:29.220
And, you know, like Moffatt kind of, you know, there's that story

703
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:32.220
where Hingcliffe kind of regrets getting rid of Harry at the end

704
00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:33.059
of...

705
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:33.480
Oh, does he?

706
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:34.259
I didn't had that.

707
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:36.059
Yes, because that was his impetus.

708
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.460
And then he realised afterwards after all the episodes have been

709
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:38.880
completed.

710
00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:40.140
Obviously they were scripting the next season.

711
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.720
He thought, oh, actually, they work really well and Ian Marty's

712
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:42.900
great.

713
00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:43.980
Why didn't make it?

714
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:44.759
That his one big regret.

715
00:30:44.819 --> 00:30:45.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

716
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.559
And then, of course, you've got Amy and Rory, which again works so

717
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:53.819
well. works really well and is Moffatt wanting to recreate that

718
00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:57.180
dynamic, I think. you know, which is why you've got the slightly

719
00:30:57.180 --> 00:31:01.140
hapless Rory, you know, who's a little bit sort of fumbling.

720
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.079
He's the sort of person who might make a lunge for the helmet

721
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:05.460
regulator or something like that.

722
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:09.000
And so I think we're trying to do it here a little bit, you know

723
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.259
in a much weirder way.

724
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.240
And I think it works really well.

725
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:17.579
You're always complaining, Simon, that we... as always.

726
00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:20.640
But do you know what I mean, though?

727
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:21.539
But specifically.

728
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:27.180
In this case, that we continually have a contemporary companion in

729
00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:28.740
the Tartars for the entire ride.

730
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:29.640
Yes, exactly. series.

731
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:31.319
Here we don't for the 1st time.

732
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:32.160
Exactly.

733
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:33.779
And it's actually really quite fun.

734
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:35.220
Who'd have thought?

735
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:36.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah.

736
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:40.319
And I tend to think by himself, it wouldn't work quite so well.

737
00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:41.279
Oh, no, exactly.

738
00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:43.619
100% You know, like the Velma staff.

739
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:45.059
That's great. great.

740
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.700
The Velma stuff is the most Doctor Whoey stuff, I think, in the

741
00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:48.059
episode.

742
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.599
And one of the things about the episode is it is a little bit

743
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:52.619
gone.

744
00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:54.299
Like it's a bit serious.

745
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:59.579
And so having him there to talk nonsense about Velma and having

746
00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:03.240
it's a little bit like in sleep no more where you get the, the, uh

747
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:04.920
you know, the Sandman song.

748
00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:07.500
It's a bit of whimsy, exactly.

749
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:09.539
Also pleasingly brings to mind Scooby-Doo.

750
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:11.519
I was thinking Chicago, the musical.

751
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:13.740
You would.

752
00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:15.960
Different worlds.

753
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:23.460
It's true because is the last time that we had a non-human

754
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:25.259
companion, Turlow?

755
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:26.940
Oh.

756
00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:28.380
Yes.

757
00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:31.619
Not counting any big finish audios in the middle, yeah.

758
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:33.359
And they sort of bring the same thing.

759
00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:36.299
I mean, obviously Turlo are not or are not similar characters, but

760
00:32:36.299 --> 00:32:39.779
they bring that kind of that outside of perspective, weird spiky

761
00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:43.019
reactions to things which you just don't get from human

762
00:32:43.019 --> 00:32:43.559
companions.

763
00:32:43.619 --> 00:32:45.480
Yeah, no, I think that works.

764
00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:48.839
I mean, I know that you need the relatable companion, but I don't

765
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:52.619
believe that the companion needs to be from the present day and be

766
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:53.880
a human to be relatable.

767
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:57.660
That's to do with how a character is written rather than the fact

768
00:32:57.660 --> 00:33:00.420
that they're from 2024 or 28, 24 or whatever.

769
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.059
Yeah, I mean, I think Zoe, for instance, is perfectly related.

770
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:04.440
I was just thinking, yes, absolutely.

771
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:07.019
Oh, Vicky even, you know, Dodo.

772
00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:11.220
But also how much we love Romana, especially the 2nd Romana, yeah.

773
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:14.160
Yeah, I think the show wants to be a little bit more

774
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:14.880
contemporary.

775
00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:18.480
It doesn't want cultural references like, you know, a flying

776
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.700
saucer with Batman at the controls.

777
00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:22.380
Like it wants something...

778
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:24.660
It's a space rocket with...

779
00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:25.079
Oh really?

780
00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:28.740
Just listen to what he said. even better.

781
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:33.059
And so that's why we have the contemporary companion.

782
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:35.039
But, I mean, the doctor can just do that stuff anyway.

783
00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:38.160
He was hung around earth in the early 21st century for a bit.

784
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:51.059
Thinking about not all.

785
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:54.839
Also, there's that fantastic final scene, and the script for the

786
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:58.019
episode is up online, officially up online.

787
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:00.180
So I went to have a read of that.

788
00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:04.200
And what fascinated me was, okay, you get that very serious scene

789
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.480
between Nadal and the doctor and he's saying, you know, you

790
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.000
shouldn't have gone, you were supposed to go out the vault, da da

791
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:09.420
da da.

792
00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:14.460
And the doctor has that cowed or crushed feeling and he says, I

793
00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:15.119
can't look at you.

794
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:18.539
But the last line is not in the script.

795
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:20.400
So he says, I can't look at you.

796
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:22.199
I can't look at anything ever again.

797
00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:26.760
And then they have added the big black screen and I'm still

798
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:27.719
blind.

799
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:29.280
And I'm, oh, my.

800
00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:30.539
Oh, that's good.

801
00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:31.920
Hair raising.

802
00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:35.820
I actually was wondering watching it, whether because it's black

803
00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:40.260
and because it's ADR, did they add it later?

804
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.960
I think they thought we have to make this absolutely clear, but

805
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:44.039
also that will frighten them.

806
00:34:44.099 --> 00:34:44.880
Yeah, yeah.

807
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:46.380
That would have been the fear of God into the mess.

808
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:47.699
They actually had a black screen in the episode.

809
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:49.320
Yeah, it went.

810
00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:52.320
Yeah, you never see him say, I'm blind.

811
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.119
I'm still blind.

812
00:34:54.179 --> 00:34:55.800
So what do we think of that?

813
00:34:55.860 --> 00:34:59.400
Like doing that to the doctor. think it's great.

814
00:34:59.460 --> 00:35:00.659
Yeah, I think that is good.

815
00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:03.480
And it's fantastic that it lasts beyond this episode.

816
00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:05.460
If it didn't, it would just be a thing.

817
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.760
It doesn't really matter because we can just weigh the magic wand

818
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:09.659
and he's...

819
00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:10.619
Bit of regeneration energy.

820
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:14.519
Dr. Crusher has returned us all to normal with her usual skill.

821
00:35:15.659 --> 00:35:17.820
Is that Genesis?

822
00:35:21.179 --> 00:35:23.099
Oh my god.

823
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:27.659
I like the doctor acting from a position of weakness.

824
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:30.059
And so I like it whenever it takes something right.

825
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:32.639
And this, I think, puddler reason I like it is that this has the

826
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:35.280
slightly desperate feel of a regeneration story.

827
00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:38.460
Like things going wrong and big things happening to the doctor

828
00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:41.400
that might not be taken back or in this case not taken back for a

829
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:41.639
while.

830
00:35:41.699 --> 00:35:46.679
The one thing that I was a little bit underwhelmed by was the

831
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:50.699
treating of blindness as a terrible disability.

832
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:52.019
Oh my god, I'm still blind.

833
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:52.860
Ta-dum.

834
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.980
I think being Doc 2 and being the doctor, he could have

835
00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:58.500
incorporated that a little bit more into the doctor's character

836
00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:01.980
and shown him, okay, I've lost one of my senses.

837
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:03.539
This is now how I deal with things.

838
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:04.679
Other things take over.

839
00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:07.079
It's not a disability that will scar you for life.

840
00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:08.820
It's tricky, isn't it?

841
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.380
Oh no, that's a really good point.

842
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:14.820
If it was going to go on for much longer in the season, You'd want

843
00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:17.699
to be him to be talking to some blind people in the story and

844
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:18.780
saying, well, how do you manage?

845
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:19.920
And they go, well, just like this.

846
00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:21.539
We'll we'll teach you.

847
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:22.920
I think it's fair enough.

848
00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:25.139
Like, I can see what you're saying, but I think it's possible to

849
00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:28.440
get a bit overwrought about those sorts of concerns because...

850
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.599
Just a bit more cleverness, I think, in the way that the doctor

851
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:31.380
handled that.

852
00:36:31.380 --> 00:36:33.239
Maybe, but it would still be if you...

853
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:34.679
He's very fatalistic about it.

854
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:35.699
I know, true.

855
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.659
But if you suddenly lost your sight or your hearing or a limb just

856
00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:42.420
like that, you would be utterly devastated.

857
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:43.440
Yes, I would.

858
00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:44.460
I'm not the doctor.

859
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:45.300
It's different.

860
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.360
I know, but I actually think the way he reacts is right because I

861
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:49.860
don't think it's not distress.

862
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:52.980
It's like we have a problem here because I'm going to take some

863
00:36:52.980 --> 00:36:55.500
time to adjust to this and we've got Missy down at the bottom.

864
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:56.519
I think that was great.

865
00:36:56.579 --> 00:36:59.099
I really liked the way that he handled it within the story.

866
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:04.500
I thought at the end, the fact that he was so like overwrought by

867
00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:06.179
the fact that I'm still blind.

868
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:07.619
I didn't like that.

869
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.500
It felt like he hadn't actually acclimatised to that and wasn't

870
00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:11.340
looking towards the future.

871
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:14.340
No, he hasn't acclimatised to it at this point, that he sued me

872
00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:16.440
because it's only that point where, because during the story

873
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:18.059
they're thinking, oh, yes, we can fix it when we get back to the

874
00:37:18.059 --> 00:37:18.599
Tartars.

875
00:37:18.659 --> 00:37:21.900
It's the fact that I have so much responsibility and now I have

876
00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:22.679
this disability.

877
00:37:22.739 --> 00:37:24.539
Whatever happened to the lizard's eyes.

878
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:26.280
We never follow up on that later.

879
00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.500
That's true, actually, yes, yes, yes. true.

880
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.400
They're still there.

881
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:34.320
I feel like to find out the best ways to think about this, to feel

882
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.139
about this is we'd have to actually phone up a few blind Doctor

883
00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:39.480
Who fans and say, well, how did you respond to it?

884
00:37:39.539 --> 00:37:40.920
How did you feel about it?

885
00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:44.820
Was it maybe exciting that the doctor had to cope with being blind

886
00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:49.139
for a couple of episodes or was it an insult or what were all the

887
00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:50.760
different kinds of opinions that people had?

888
00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:56.940
I have someone associated with radio who had very poor vision and

889
00:37:56.940 --> 00:38:00.780
just recently in the last few months had an accident, which meant

890
00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:02.039
that he lost his sight entirely.

891
00:38:02.099 --> 00:38:02.880
Oh, damn.

892
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.139
And let's just say that even though he was, let's just say, barely

893
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:10.860
seeing before that, and then suddenly he can't, and there may yet

894
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:13.079
be something that can be done, and I think there's still some

895
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:13.500
hope.

896
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:18.000
But basically for, for, that was it, right?

897
00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:22.500
And let's just say it is a massive shock and massive impact.

898
00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:24.840
And I think that it takes a lot of adjustment.

899
00:38:24.900 --> 00:38:29.699
Even if you're coming from a point of, I'm almost blind anyway, but

900
00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:30.719
there is a big difference.

901
00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:32.280
There was a big difference.

902
00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:35.820
I think, as ever, you need Stephen Moth to write these things

903
00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:36.539
really properly.

904
00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:38.159
And in the next episode, extremists.

905
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:40.800
I think he handles the doctor's blindness extremely well.

906
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:43.920
The doctor goes through the story, doing doctorish things, and

907
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.280
being the doctor that we know and being clever, but being slightly

908
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:49.739
hamstrung by what's happened to him, being frustrated about that.

909
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:51.300
I think that sort of gets it rise.

910
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.579
It's a very strange choice.

911
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:55.260
It's such an odd thing to do.

912
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:57.420
It's something the Doctor Who really never does.

913
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:02.460
And in a way, it's like a subset, it's like a small scale version

914
00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:05.699
of the season as a whole where this season tells a particular

915
00:39:05.699 --> 00:39:09.059
story about a period in the doctor's life.

916
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:13.980
You know, like the unit era where, you know, the doctor's life

917
00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:15.300
doesn't tend to have a shape.

918
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:17.880
He just goes from place to place to place to place.

919
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:20.880
You know, but here he stops for 70 years.

920
00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:24.000
He lives in this thing he has a job to do.

921
00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:27.059
It's preventing him from doing his usual staff.

922
00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:34.139
And so there's a shape to this season, which is maybe the most

923
00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:39.420
successful arc that the show has had in the modern era.

924
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:40.139
Wow.

925
00:39:40.139 --> 00:39:41.039
I think.

926
00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:42.659
I mean, I'm a huge fan of series three.

927
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:46.440
I think, you know, that thing where Mr. Saxon goes back from

928
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:51.000
episode 11 goes back into the middle of season 2 in the Tartars.

929
00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:53.400
And so we've had references, like, I think that's wonderful.

930
00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:59.579
Um, but I think, you know, like because it's like a, it's like a

931
00:39:59.579 --> 00:40:03.960
Moffat short story, really, where he changes the premise of the

932
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.000
show subtly in an interesting way.

933
00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:09.480
And so he's doing it here, even within the show, he's changing the

934
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.780
premise where the doctor is now blind for a few episodes.

935
00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:15.659
And I think making him blind.

936
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.000
Like, why do we make him blind this story?

937
00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:20.460
He doesn't need to be blind for this story, does?

938
00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:20.880
Does he?

939
00:40:20.940 --> 00:40:22.380
He doesn't need to be blind for it to work.

940
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:23.400
No.

941
00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:25.079
It just demonstrating that he's sacrificed.

942
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.019
Sacrifice himself forbid about stakes. yeah Yeah, yeah.

943
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:29.159
Yeah. and ups the stakes.

944
00:40:29.219 --> 00:40:32.400
If this is space and space is trying to kill you and we all just

945
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:34.679
stroll away and there's no sort of particular problem.

946
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:39.840
How do we feel about how compel the axe, or the doctor acts after

947
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:43.320
when they're in those last sequences where he's in the TARDIS and

948
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:46.619
we think the audience thinks everyone around him thinks that Nadal

949
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:48.900
has healed him, have sexed him.

950
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:53.099
Do we think that that reflects the movements and action of a blind

951
00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:55.679
person, even if they're in an ultrafamiliar environment, which is

952
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:57.119
the Tartars console room?

953
00:40:57.179 --> 00:40:58.139
Because it's really funny.

954
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.599
The 1st thing he says, oh, we're in the TARDIS, and obviously he

955
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:01.559
could tell that anyway.

956
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:03.719
Because the tartus goes blue, blue.

957
00:41:03.780 --> 00:41:03.960
Yeah.

958
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:05.880
Oh, we're in the Titus.

959
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:06.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

960
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:09.960
But he kind of makes that point as if he wants them to think that

961
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:11.519
he's...

962
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:12.719
And he doesn't really look at anyone.

963
00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:13.380
No.

964
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:15.059
No, you can see in his performance.

965
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:15.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

966
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:16.380
Yeah.

967
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:18.000
The lizard eyes have failed.

968
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.599
Oh, no, I think it's a great performance.

969
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:24.420
I think Capaldi always delivers, and so he was never going to get

970
00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:25.320
that terribly wrong.

971
00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:27.659
Yeah, no, I'm just observing that.

972
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:30.659
That's a thing that he does, that it's subtle, but I think it is

973
00:41:30.659 --> 00:41:31.440
there in that performance.

974
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:37.079
And maybe that's the thing too, where you sensed that this had a

975
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:40.619
kind of a generation story feel to it in that everything's going

976
00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:44.880
wrong and the doctors having to make kind of quiet, he's having to

977
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:48.239
take sort of fairly drastic steps in order to keep bills safe.

978
00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:52.139
And so there's a price that has to be paid.

979
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:53.219
That's right.

980
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.619
And we talked about it last week again in knock knock, the fact

981
00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:59.099
that all of Bill's flatmate friends are killed and then come back

982
00:41:59.099 --> 00:42:01.019
to life, which is like just such a cheat.

983
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:03.360
It feels like there's no stakes in someone dying.

984
00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:07.679
Whereas it couldn't obviously kill Bill, although it does in this

985
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:08.760
episode, but doesn't.

986
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:11.880
And so the stakes that you take away is, okay, she didn't die, but

987
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:13.079
the doctor's still blind.

988
00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:16.920
This has a lot of great dialogue as well.

989
00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:18.780
Yes, you expect from Jane Matson.

990
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:22.440
It feels like Stephen Moffat script in the rapid fire dialogue.

991
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:25.199
My favourite line was too many rescue ships.

992
00:42:25.260 --> 00:42:26.400
It's a 1st world problem.

993
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:27.119
Yes.

994
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:31.920
I loved, I can't remember the exact line, but when the doctor says

995
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.559
that, you know, he's got, they've got this problem and this

996
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:35.460
problem and this problem.

997
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:39.480
Can you imagine how smug he's going to be when he pulls this off?

998
00:42:39.539 --> 00:42:40.980
Yeah.

999
00:42:40.980 --> 00:42:42.119
Oh, mind is one of the problems.

1000
00:42:42.179 --> 00:42:43.019
What is the problem?

1001
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:43.920
Yes, yes, yes.

1002
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:46.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah. was nice.

1003
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:48.420
That's kind of meta for the show, too.

1004
00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:51.840
That kind of sums that whole character up, I feel.

1005
00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:53.039
That's that doctor, right there.

1006
00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:06.420
Just an unfortunate. episode in terms of, for me, in terms of just

1007
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:07.139
doesn't land.

1008
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:09.300
It doesn't, doesn't, it's not polished.

1009
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.639
There's something about that, the resolution, the rationale.

1010
00:43:11.699 --> 00:43:13.980
I just wanted another couple of drafts and I think that's common

1011
00:43:13.980 --> 00:43:16.019
problem with this season for me anyway.

1012
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:21.119
Yeah, see, I'm not the same, like, I think thin ice is an absolute

1013
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:25.079
top tier, Doctor Who episode and and a couple of people that I

1014
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.480
spoke to since, because I was surprised to discover that.

1015
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.800
And a couple of people that I've spoken to since then have said

1016
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:33.239
yes, no, that's my favourite Capaldi.

1017
00:43:33.300 --> 00:43:33.840
Oh, wow.

1018
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:36.719
Yeah, and it's Sarah Dollard, you know, it's going to be good and

1019
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.619
it's the thing that we never got to see Capoli doing with Jenna

1020
00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:45.659
which is showing her around, introducing her to the premise of the

1021
00:43:45.659 --> 00:43:45.960
show.

1022
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.500
And that's very much what thin ice does where, you know, at the

1023
00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:51.179
end of the episode she gets to be the doctor.

1024
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:54.539
She gets to make the sort of decisions that the doctor has to make

1025
00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:59.159
including, you know, watching someone be killed and then moving on

1026
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:01.679
you know, watching the doctor responsible for someone's death and

1027
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:03.539
they're kind of moving on to solve the problem.

1028
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:06.420
I think it's really sort of properly, seriously good, and it looks

1029
00:44:06.420 --> 00:44:06.900
amazing.

1030
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:08.579
Um, this.

1031
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:16.619
I love Matheson staff, but for me, it is the fact that I just

1032
00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:22.320
don't think it's more spacy than the other space things that we've

1033
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:22.559
seen.

1034
00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:24.659
So you don't think it's more spacey.

1035
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:26.579
So it hasn't fulfilled its really...

1036
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:28.199
It's got to be more spicy.

1037
00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:29.699
And I think...

1038
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:37.139
No, no, I mean more kind of rickety and we're just walking around

1039
00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:38.400
in the usual space corridors.

1040
00:44:38.460 --> 00:44:39.480
Is it kind of like thinking?

1041
00:44:39.539 --> 00:44:42.420
Is it 40, just playing things like 42 and there are other, when

1042
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:44.940
they're in a grungy space station where there's kind of gas leaks

1043
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:47.280
coming out of the side and all that kind of stuff and they're all

1044
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:47.820
a bit sweaty?

1045
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:49.199
Is that the sort of thing that you had in mind?

1046
00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:51.960
Like, it needs to be like...

1047
00:44:52.019 --> 00:44:55.500
Yeah, Impossible Planets doing it a little bit, but you know, where

1048
00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:57.059
Ed Thomas could have shot in a paper mill.

1049
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:58.019
That's right.

1050
00:44:58.019 --> 00:44:59.280
Ed Thomas's paper mill.

1051
00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:00.300
That's what we needed.

1052
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:03.420
No, I think I think we needed it to have more sort of space

1053
00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:06.539
hardware and look a little bit less like. explaining the design.

1054
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:09.659
Yeah, in a way, but I also think that it's just something that the

1055
00:45:09.659 --> 00:45:12.659
show was never going to be able to afford, that space looks like

1056
00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:16.019
this in Doctor Who for a particular reason, and that is because

1057
00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:19.260
that's how it can be actually, you know, realised.

1058
00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:22.980
Yeah, I think I think that's made up for by that opening sequence

1059
00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:25.019
when they're outside, which I think is very well done, the

1060
00:45:25.019 --> 00:45:28.199
sequence where they're doing the spacewalk and builds, hasn't got

1061
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:28.739
their helmet.

1062
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:29.639
All those things.

1063
00:45:29.699 --> 00:45:32.159
I think maybe more conforming than we're in in our can space.

1064
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:34.380
Don't say that.

1065
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:39.780
But basically, I prepared, it's like, you know, when one watches

1066
00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:42.300
Doctor Who for, as long as we have one has to occasionally

1067
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:43.619
overlook certain things.

1068
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:44.280
Oh, sure.

1069
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:46.860
And that's not something that the sets in this is not something

1070
00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:48.539
that I felt I was overlooking.

1071
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:50.760
There were other aspects that I felt that I was overlooking at was

1072
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:53.400
to do with the script and the plot rather than, or the plot rather

1073
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.239
than the script, I should say.

1074
00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:56.340
Not the plot, the reason for being, I suppose.

1075
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:56.639
Yeah.

1076
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:58.079
Yeah. premise. premise.

1077
00:45:58.139 --> 00:45:58.559
That the word.

1078
00:45:58.739 --> 00:46:03.119
I mean, for me, it's television and I think it's super important

1079
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:05.639
that the visual salad.

1080
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:10.199
And now we can afford that more than we have been able to in the

1081
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:10.619
past.

1082
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:15.780
And, you know, we coined the term word peril for just, I think it

1083
00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:16.800
might have been that clear.

1084
00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:18.059
There are 1000s of them out.

1085
00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:19.739
Yeah, well, it's...

1086
00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:22.320
Where you were thinking about the cliffhanger to...

1087
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:23.460
The entire universe could be destroyed.

1088
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:24.780
That's episode three.

1089
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:27.719
I don't know what a word parallel is, but that was exactly where

1090
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:28.440
my mind went.

1091
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:31.440
Oh, universe would be destroyed. yeah, right.

1092
00:46:31.619 --> 00:46:33.659
How do we up the stakes?

1093
00:46:33.719 --> 00:46:34.500
Yes, exactly.

1094
00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:37.320
I think we're going to fall into the heart of a black star at the

1095
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:39.239
end of one of the...

1096
00:46:39.300 --> 00:46:39.960
Invasion of time.

1097
00:46:40.260 --> 00:46:43.260
That's where it comes from where there's one whole cliffhanger

1098
00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:46.320
which is just someone tells us that something bad is going

1099
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:46.739
through.

1100
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:50.280
And then Rodan goes and pulls the hand...

1101
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:56.519
And so we get told about the oxygen scarcity, but I just wish we

1102
00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:58.800
could see it and I think it's important to tell it.

1103
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.900
Oh, with the visuals as well.

1104
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:02.880
I'm going to mostly disagree with both of you.

1105
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:08.579
I think this is a dramatic, well told, eerie, incredibly well

1106
00:47:08.579 --> 00:47:12.719
mounted episode, which I think is a little bit on the nose with

1107
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:13.619
its politics.

1108
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:16.079
I'm going to agree with you, Simon, but I quite enjoy what it's

1109
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:19.260
going to say, and I think Nathan, it's incredibly well made.

1110
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:21.840
I actually don't get where you're coming from about it not being

1111
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.139
well made.

1112
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.559
I don't know that it's not well made, but it doesn't quite sell

1113
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:27.539
what the script is.

1114
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:30.119
Do we have that geography problem like we had last week with knock

1115
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:32.760
knock, but I don't quite know which bits of the spaceship as we?

1116
00:47:32.820 --> 00:47:36.719
I recently guessed it on a podcast where we did Waters of Mars, and

1117
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:39.780
I think Waters of Mars has some problems.

1118
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.840
What is a Mars is one of those ones which has gotten less good the

1119
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:43.980
further away it's gotten from me?

1120
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:46.800
I'm not sure about that, but I do think that what it does do is

1121
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:50.519
the geography of the base is extremely well established.

1122
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:52.380
Really, really well.

1123
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:54.119
Just the physical location.

1124
00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:56.340
And I think it does better zombies actually.

1125
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:57.360
It does.

1126
00:47:57.420 --> 00:47:59.219
Although these zombies are pretty good.

1127
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.039
Yeah, you actually help with that is when they have CGI or a

1128
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:02.940
cutback to model work.

1129
00:48:02.940 --> 00:48:05.460
And the camera actually drifts in on the section that you're in

1130
00:48:05.460 --> 00:48:07.800
that helps you to place where you are.

1131
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:08.880
Maybe, yes.

1132
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:10.199
And sometimes if you're lacking that.

1133
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:11.400
Yeah, they don't do that.

1134
00:48:11.460 --> 00:48:14.460
There are exterior establishing shots, but they don't, because

1135
00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:15.599
it's a circle.

1136
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:17.760
It looks fantastic doesn't it?

1137
00:48:17.820 --> 00:48:18.960
360s.

1138
00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:19.380
Yes.

1139
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:20.400
Quarters of Mars.

1140
00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:25.079
No, no, the space station, the Academy space station. little hint

1141
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:26.400
of 2001 game.

1142
00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:27.239
Yes, yes.

1143
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:27.900
A little hint.

1144
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:30.119
I think you need to have a little, but what we, as we said before

1145
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:33.000
what's missing is the silences to make it really 2001.

1146
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:36.659
But again, I would have cared more if it had ever had about 25

1147
00:48:36.659 --> 00:48:39.539
minutes at the beginning of it, which allowed it for a bit more

1148
00:48:39.539 --> 00:48:42.360
world building and for us to get to know these people.

1149
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:43.260
And to understand what's going on.

1150
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:46.260
And I think that makes everything else more exciting.

1151
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:51.179
Just running, running around and having crises does not in itself

1152
00:48:51.179 --> 00:48:51.900
make it exciting.

1153
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:52.500
I need to care.

1154
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:55.739
Not having that means you have to get the plot shorthand with like

1155
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:57.420
you know, I'm pregnant, et cetera, et cetera.

1156
00:48:57.539 --> 00:48:58.199
Yes, exactly.

1157
00:48:58.260 --> 00:49:01.739
And of course, we're using what could be precious episode time

1158
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:04.559
even though it's great by having that sequence at the bidding in

1159
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:06.179
the lecture and having the sequence at the end where the doctor

1160
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:09.000
proclaims that he's still blind, because you have those, which are

1161
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.579
great bits, but the problem is then you're eating into the part

1162
00:49:11.579 --> 00:49:13.679
where they're actually on the space station, which would have

1163
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:16.920
given you more time to be able to maybe do some of the things that

1164
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:17.460
I have an issue with.

1165
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:20.280
One of the things that sequence does, though, is the thing that I

1166
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:24.059
like in the pilot, where it makes it look like time is passing

1167
00:49:24.059 --> 00:49:27.659
because we have short scenes that just maybe consist of a line of

1168
00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:31.800
dialogue or a look out the window. walking through the grounds

1169
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:33.360
with the one punchline joke in it.

1170
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:35.460
Yeah, I think that's really great.

1171
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:39.480
And that's the thing that sold me on the pilot that puts the pilot

1172
00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:42.960
into sort of top tier territory is that it takes place over a year

1173
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:47.039
and it has the same sort of beats as a kind of film dart.

1174
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:47.760
It does.

1175
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.900
And I really liked how we're getting the idea that the doctor

1176
00:49:51.900 --> 00:49:55.559
wants to go into space and that's something that's been building

1177
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:56.460
for a while.

1178
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:58.320
I think that's really good.

1179
00:49:58.380 --> 00:49:59.280
And the lecture.

1180
00:49:59.340 --> 00:50:00.239
What the lecture supposed to be about?

1181
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:01.079
What's this got to do?

1182
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:02.460
The crop rotation.

1183
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:06.059
But space is really cool.

1184
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:12.000
But like, I think, like, I really, really think that we could have

1185
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:16.139
just had every episode starts with Peter Capaldi giving a lecture

1186
00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:17.579
about...

1187
00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:19.139
No, seriously, that would have been awesome.

1188
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:20.460
That would have been absolutely awesome.

1189
00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:24.300
I think maybe it would be too cheesy, but I think I would have

1190
00:50:24.300 --> 00:50:24.599
won.

1191
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:25.679
This week, black holes.

1192
00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:27.960
But, sir.

1193
00:50:28.019 --> 00:50:29.940
Oh my god.

1194
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:32.940
But it works so well compared to like, I can't remember which one

1195
00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:33.239
they call.

1196
00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:35.940
Listen, which is the one where he starts with the...

1197
00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:37.440
Yeah, the tartars.

1198
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:38.880
The blackboard, isn't it?

1199
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:39.300
Yeah.

1200
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:41.579
And then there's another one where he does it with who wrote

1201
00:50:41.579 --> 00:50:42.480
Beethoven's Fish.

1202
00:50:42.539 --> 00:50:43.500
Is that the same one?

1203
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:46.380
No, that's before the flood. before the flood. before the flood.

1204
00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:50.099
See, I think that that's brilliant, listen, because in listen, he's

1205
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:53.579
losing it to such a degree where he's talking to himself and

1206
00:50:53.579 --> 00:50:54.539
that's why he's talking.

1207
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:58.260
It's not a monologue or something to camera like it is in before

1208
00:50:58.260 --> 00:50:58.860
the flood.

1209
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:03.119
It's genuinely, he's now losing it to the degree where he's

1210
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:05.639
talking to himself and so that's why we get to hear his thoughts.

1211
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.579
But because Douglas McKinnon is so terrible.

1212
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:12.900
He ruins it in all sorts of things. directed the Santarian

1213
00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:13.500
strategy.

1214
00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:15.960
I really like that story.

1215
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:16.739
I do too.

1216
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:18.539
I think it's a brilliant script, but I think it's ruined by

1217
00:51:18.539 --> 00:51:19.440
Douglas McKenna.

1218
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:20.340
Slightly underdirected.

1219
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:20.880
I agree.

1220
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:25.500
Whenever they say Ganymede, does anyone just have the guy from...

1221
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:28.139
Ganymede Beacon?

1222
00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:31.260
So why doesn't it all look swoosh and lovely like Never Beacon?

1223
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:31.980
what I want to say.

1224
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:33.239
It's not the 70s.

1225
00:51:33.300 --> 00:51:37.800
Oh, this is where the guy was sending that spaceship off to with

1226
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:38.760
Michael Wisher on board.

1227
00:51:38.820 --> 00:51:40.980
Yeah, he was he was sending them off.

1228
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:42.780
They're going to be bacon, which is this place?

1229
00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:44.880
to go and rescue them from spacesuits.

1230
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:45.719
He was my brother.

1231
00:51:47.940 --> 00:51:52.440
Well, the episode talks about the true face of the universe being

1232
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:55.920
when it asks for help, and the true face is our face when we

1233
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:57.420
respond to that cry for help.

1234
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.179
But that true face is the skull.

1235
00:52:00.539 --> 00:52:03.599
That's what the true face is the face of Beau.

1236
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:08.820
I like your version better.

1237
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:12.420
I love that bit, though.

1238
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:18.000
I mean, I do love those lines of dialogue, you know, the... where

1239
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:21.360
the doctor, he's the distress call and says that's my theme song.

1240
00:52:21.420 --> 00:52:23.039
Yeah, that's a theme too.

1241
00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:28.980
And then where she wants to leave and he says who we are is being

1242
00:52:28.980 --> 00:52:29.400
charged.

1243
00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:30.539
That's the other thing too.

1244
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:33.599
Where he says, it's everyone's fault.

1245
00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:34.739
No, it's your fault.

1246
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:36.840
The problem with the universe is everyone says it's not their

1247
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:37.199
fault.

1248
00:52:37.260 --> 00:52:40.619
Everyone tries to kind of exculpate themselves or each other.

1249
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:41.460
It's all right.

1250
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:42.300
It wasn't your fault.

1251
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:44.280
And he says, no, it is your fault.

1252
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:45.420
Do something about it.

1253
00:52:45.539 --> 00:52:50.159
He does it a 2nd time in the episode because Nadal and Bill are

1254
00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:51.420
happy to run back to the TARNIS.

1255
00:52:51.539 --> 00:52:53.159
And he says, have, you know, do the math.

1256
00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:55.019
There's 4 people left alive.

1257
00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:55.559
Yes.

1258
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:57.900
You hadn't thought about that. 40-36, yes.

1259
00:52:57.960 --> 00:52:58.559
Yeah, yeah.

1260
00:53:22.619 --> 00:53:25.559
Well, lady, sir, that's all the time we have for this week.

1261
00:53:25.619 --> 00:53:29.099
We'll be back next week to watch Bill's first date with Penny

1262
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:32.340
taken unexpected turn in extremis.

1263
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:36.480
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1264
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:39.840
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1265
00:53:38.340 --> 00:53:42.539
com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to

1266
00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:46.619
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1267
00:53:46.619 --> 00:53:50.699
500-year diary, and the 2nd grade and bountiful human empire.

1268
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:55.739
Until next time, remember that it's all your fault, so what are

1269
00:53:55.739 --> 00:53:56.699
you going to do about it?

1270
00:53:56.760 --> 00:53:59.159
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1271
00:53:59.219 --> 00:54:00.059
Good night.

1272
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:01.079
Bye bye.

1273
00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:02.219
Ciao for now.

1274
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:10.980
That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1275
00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:12.900
Griffith, Simon Moore, and Kate Orman.

1276
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:14.880
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1277
00:54:14.940 --> 00:54:18.360
This episode, Cowed and Crushed, was recorded on the 25th of

1278
00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:21.360
August 2024 and released on the 13th of October.

1279
00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:27.239
The average human being consumes about 780 grams of oxygen a day

1280
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:30.300
which is clearly the reason I'm currently putting on so much

1281
00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:30.780
weight.

1282
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:32.579
Time to cut down, I think.

1283
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:46.019
Does this happen?

1284
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:47.820
What, with paper in there?

1285
00:54:47.940 --> 00:54:51.900
No, no, what I'm thinking is, what I don't think is, there's that

1286
00:54:51.900 --> 00:54:52.559
bit at the end.

1287
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:53.940
Maybe this is a tag.

1288
00:54:54.000 --> 00:55:00.900
There's a bit at the end where, um, the Bill hugs the doctor and

1289
00:55:00.900 --> 00:55:04.199
then Nardol goes in for a hug and he says, cuddle.

1290
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:07.559
That happens again, doesn't it?

1291
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:08.519
Yes, that's it.

1292
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:09.659
That happens.

1293
00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:11.400
Does it happen in twice upon a time?

1294
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:13.199
That's, I think, Nardol's last line.

1295
00:55:13.260 --> 00:55:15.659
Where they both hug the doctor.

1296
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:16.980
He says cuddle and then they disappear.

1297
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:22.619
The funny thing is that the subtitles on the Blu-ray get it

1298
00:55:22.619 --> 00:55:22.860
wrong.

1299
00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:26.159
I can't remember, but they don't say cartel.

1300
00:55:26.219 --> 00:55:26.940
Is it because of the Sonos?

1301
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.000
you know, audio translated...

1302
00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:31.019
Right, they don't get it right.

1303
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:32.219
But they say something funny.

1304
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:33.659
It's just something odd.

1305
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:38.579
I think it's another one of Matt Lucas's ad libs because we've

1306
00:55:38.579 --> 00:55:39.360
talked about that before.

1307
00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:44.760
In Dr. Mysterio, where he goes into the bedroom and he goes, ooh

1308
00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:45.360
elephant.

1309
00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:50.519
And then he sort of runs like, apparently that's that's an ad

1310
00:55:49.860 --> 00:55:50.519
lib.

1311
00:55:50.579 --> 00:55:56.340
And Capaldi, you know, who is um, uh, more classically trained.

1312
00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:56.820
Yes.

1313
00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:04.019
You know, I am getting kind of per twee trout and kind of...

1314
00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:09.179
But he says, you know, look, it's terribly funny, but like I'm not

1315
00:56:09.179 --> 00:56:10.619
expecting it at all sort of thing.

1316
00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:12.059
I'm going to say something about it.

1317
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:17.159
But yeah, no, it just seemed to be like a weird, um, hilarious

1318
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:19.500
Matt Lucas thing.

1319
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:21.420
Is he even supposed to be in the shot?

1320
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:22.739
He's just there suddenly.

1321
00:56:23.099 --> 00:56:24.599
Okay.