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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:20:53

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that suspects that the sky, the air

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the earth, colours, shapes, sounds, and all external things are

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merely the delusions of dreams devised by some malicious demon of

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the utmost power and cunning to ensnare our judgement.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Stephen.

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I'm Johnny.

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Well, a mere 13 years after renowned thriller writer Dan Brown

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inflicted the da Vinci code on an undeserving world.

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Here's the doctor in the Vatican discovering the horrifying truth

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that his world is nothing more than a complex simulation.

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A fact that television viewers had found out for themselves more

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than 50 years earlier.

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But is there a simulation within the simulation?

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Let's find out as we discuss extremists.

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Speaking of Dan Brown, there is a bit of cut dialogue from this

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and as we tend to discover with Moffat, he sometimes skates a bit

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close to the boundaries of good taste, so in the initial scene

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with the doctor and the monks in the doctor's office and they

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explain, you know, everyone who's read this has committed

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suicide.

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Nardol describes a veritas as being a bit like the da Vinci code

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to which the doctor replies, oh, dreadful book, but I wouldn't

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have gone beyond self-harm.

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The thing about da Vinci code.

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And like it was huge.

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Like, we can't overstate how enormous it was.

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But it is a book that sort of hinges on the idea that it turns out

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that the things that the church teachers aren't actually true.

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And given that most of us kind of know that already.

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And the church is still here.

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Like I never really kind of understood quite what the deal was.

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In any case, there's heaps of that here, isn't there?

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I mean, the whole idea of a sort of deep secret at the heart of

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the Vatican, some doctrine that can't be acknowledged.

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Well, I'm sure it's one of you fine flight through entirety, gents

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who says the doctor who always gets to things a few years late.

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Yes.

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And this is absolutely what happens with the da Vinci code.

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But there's this other thing that isn't Henry Lincoln, ex-Doctor

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Who writer somehow involved in this kind of religious kind of

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crime kind of hidden artefact.

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I think he writes the er text on this subject, something like

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sacred blood or something or other.

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But yeah, he is involved in that...

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So the weird thing is it's all kind of circular.

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It's all sort of come back to dogs back to Doctor Who.

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All of this.

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Wow.

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No, I never knew that, but it sort of explains how abominable

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snowmen explores, religious themes in a way, Doctor Who hadn't

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until that time, really.

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Well, I suppose except for we don't mention the massacre.

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No, I'm kind of thinking, you know, the cult of Demnos or the

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people on Tigella.

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Oh, yeah, but that's later.

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But everything I've learned about cults comes from Doctor Who.

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I assume they all wear hoods.

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I'm assumed they all, yeah. they all kind of walk around and do

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chanting.

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That's how it happens, right?

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We sacrifice a companion at some stages.

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That's it.

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Amy Pond is basically Kimmy Schmidt.

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So it is true that Doctor Who has sort of not kind of done

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religion in this way, I think, but it is a sort of cartoony

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version of religion, I think, with Pope sort of turning up and

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handsome Father Angelo and things.

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I guess there's one moment which I thought was particularly good

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which was where Father Angelo says that Pope Benedict the ninth

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who the doctor spent, like clearly having a night of kind of

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heterosexual sex with.

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We've really abandoned the idea that the doctor just isn't into

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that.

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He really clearly is, that she said that he had more to confess

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than could be confessed, that there wasn't time to hear his

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confession.

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And I thought that was actually pretty good.

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He actually, Angelo puts his hand on the doctor's shoulder and

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offers him confession and I thought that was pretty great.

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Yeah, and the rest of the time it is treated as very much a joke.

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You know, the whole thing about the pope crashing builds date, I

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just think is pure Moffat and absolutely hilarious.

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But the only thing that, you know, absolutely can only be done in

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Doctor Who.

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Like at no other point does Pope actually appear in your in your

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bedroom with a whole bunch of other priests as you're looking to

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get your date into the bedroom.

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I think it's really the only way to treat religion within Doctor

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Who because it has to have a light touch because any sort of going

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any further into this makes the whole kind of world fall apart.

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You can't really have the doctor in the same space as the pope

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without saying we could just get into the TARDIS and go and check

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if you want.

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You know, if you want actually some certainty about this, this is

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actually fairly easy to sort out.

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So, so actually, I think that Moffatt treads a fairly respectful

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line.

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And he, there are a number of jokes he obviously avoids throughout

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the whole, that 1st section of the episode with them.

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And I just don't think it would have gone out on BBC One without

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that kind of careful treading.

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You're absolutely right.

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They actually had to go through more sort of checks and balances

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to use the figure of the pope than they do to use the British

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Prime Minister or the American president.

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It's kind of like political figures don't need as much leeway as

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religious ones and possibly because they're elected rather than

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appointed, but particularly with the pope, Moffat sort of set out

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to go, we can sort of make jokes around the pope, but we can't

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make the pope the joke.

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And I think him, you like crashing into the living room, is about

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as close as they can get.

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And Joseph Long, who was previously in turn left.

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Mr. Colosante. and wasn't actually cast because of that.

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He went through the usual audition process, and the character he

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was auditioning for was Paul, um, and needed to be able to speak

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Italian, but as he's like, as soon as I got into the audition room

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and read the script, it's like, this is the pope.

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But his bit where he bursts into the living room and starts

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speaking in Italian.

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He wrote that.

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He actor wrote that.

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And the translation is, what's going on?

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Who are you 2 girls?

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How do I end up here in this house?

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I thought we were returning to the Vatican.

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This is madness.

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Doctor, why did you bring me here?

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While we're talking about ad-lib dialogue.

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I was watching this with the subtitles on.

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And there's a moment where the subtitles seem to capture Matt

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Lucas ad-libbing.

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So there's a there's a moment where Bill, after this moment, she

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rushes into the Tartis and says, don't put the pope on my date

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please.

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And Nadal has to quickly explain the plot to her.

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So he's sort of coming, come over here.

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And in the subtitles, it's Matt Lucas is saying, so these are

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priests, and they are from the Vatican, and the Vatican is in

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Italy, and Rome is in India.

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Surely nobody wrote that dialogue.

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Like surely not.

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It must have been just audible enough for the subtitlers to pick

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up on.

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I think it's really funny though, because it is, you know, because

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Nardal's an alien.

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He doesn't know what can be assumed.

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Yeah, so he's overexplaining it, which I think is delightful.

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And you know what?

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It may also be a bit of a riff on airplane slash flying high.

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You know, Johnny, tell me everything that's happened.

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Well, 1st the earth, cool.

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And then what dinosaurs came, but they got too big in fact.

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That wouldn't surprise me, actually, because I also think the

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other sort of unconscious maybe influence on this is the Blues

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Brothers were on a mission from God and you've got sunglasses

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break bands, sunglasses.

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It's all there.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the pope at this point is Francis already.

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He becomes pope, I think, in 2013, actually, before even the 50th

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anniversary special.

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I would have guessed it a bit later than that.

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And so we still had Pope Benedict.

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He was kind of a little bit like the 14th doctor.

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You know, he still kept going, even though the next pope came

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along.

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And so there is a little moment where we mentioned Pope Benedict

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and there's a little intake of breath, and then he says the knife

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you know, from 1040 or 1070 or whatever.

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Yeah, so clearly they do tread lightly.

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Clearly, the pope is not like a figure of Fana, an idiot, and we

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do kind of take them seriously.

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No one is being disrespected here for being Catholic or having

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beliefs.

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The doctor at the very end says he doesn't believe in anything.

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He thinks he probably doesn't believe in anything.

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But that's long after those characters have kind of left the scene

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I think.

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Also, in keeping, just, as you said, that, I don't know whether I

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read this in a missing adventure or whether it's actually in the

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canon somewhere on television, but something about Hartnell's

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doctor saying that he considers himself to be currently an

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agnostic, but by the time he reaches the end of his travelling, he

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would probably expect to be an atheist.

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Does that ring a bell with anyone or have I made that up?

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I can't remember that.

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It might be an Empire of Glass, I wonder.

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That's probably, actually, that's my favourite missing adventure

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probably where it's from.

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I mean, we have dealt with the idea of religion before, and

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obviously we're not really doing it properly here, and I think, you

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know, the blocus classicus for that is the Satan pit, that

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conversation with Ida, which I think is just sort of stunningly

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well done.

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Here, though, we have the whole episode taking place, though, in a

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kind of imaginary universe, the shadow realm or something?

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Are we calling it something, but it is a computer simulation.

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And the show itself kind of leans into the fact that it's

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regularly a simulation anyway.

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We tune into it.

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In fact, the role of the opening credits, I think, uh, initially

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when they used to happen at the beginning of the episode and at

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the end of the episode in the classic series is that it's a kind

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of point of demarkation between the real world and the world of

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Doctor Who.

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And so it's that sort of screaming, weird, eerie, uh, sound that

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tells us that we're leaving our world and going into somewhere

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else.

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And this episode actually makes the titles have that role as

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well.

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And so everything in the pre-title sequence is in our world.

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The doctor receives the email with a subject line extremist, and

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then we start to get that weird video effect, like there's static

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going into the opening credits and coming out of the opening

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credits, and everything between the opening credits and the scene

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towards the end, where the doctor presses send is the simulation.

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And the way that the simulation is marked is by, you know, the

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sort of video effect that you would get on a television.

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And so Doctor Who every week is a simulation.

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But this week, the doctor himself is watching the episode at the

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same time as we are.

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It's almost the trial of a time lord all over it.

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Except he's not watching from a comfy seat.

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Yeah, hanging up.

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It's a particular type of simulation in that, you know, I think we

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find out in the next coming episode, there are 100s, if not 1000s

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of 1000000s of similar simulations.

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We just happen to be watching the simulation where the monks have

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decided to write down the secret of this place in a book and place

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it around for people to say.

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It would be interesting to see a simulation where they decided not

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to reveal the whole plan by writing it down somewhere for people

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to see.

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It's interesting that and getting to the video game metaphor the

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doctor uses, which, of course, I absolutely love.

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And it turns out that comes from the fact that Moffat is a gamer

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which I never realised.

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But recently over on one of my other shows, the BJBJ game show, we

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played a game called the Talos Principle, which is very, it's very

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clearly set in a computerised simulation.

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But there's one and this was a secret both eye and my co-host BJ

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discovered, which is there's this doorway that's very

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00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:12.120
conspicuous.

248
00:13:12.179 --> 00:13:16.620
And if you run at it, The door doesn't open, but you just pass

249
00:13:16.620 --> 00:13:19.019
straight through it, and there's this weird Easter egg inside that

250
00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:19.980
I won't spoil for anyone.

251
00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:20.879
But that's the thing.

252
00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:24.779
Video games do have cheat codes and debug states and weird Easter

253
00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:26.460
eggs hidden inside them.

254
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.659
So it's kind of like the veritas is the cheat code.

255
00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.220
I mean, I wondered whether a group of people had discovered

256
00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:42.179
empirically the thing about the random numbers and so that it had

257
00:13:42.179 --> 00:13:45.360
been written down so that it wasn't necessarily by the marks, like

258
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.919
I thought that it was possible to believe the backstory that

259
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:51.240
Father Angelo gives.

260
00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:52.320
Oh, okay, yeah.

261
00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:53.700
No, I must have misread that.

262
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:58.080
I thought that as a result of the Verrit has been sent to CERN

263
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:00.179
that that was the sort of precursor to that, and then they

264
00:14:00.179 --> 00:14:03.000
discovered the shadow test through the numbers that way.

265
00:14:03.059 --> 00:14:06.059
But I feel like that's what you have to do in this genre.

266
00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.039
And I'll talk about meta fiction later on, I think.

267
00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:10.860
But this whole idea of the shadow test, which is explicitly

268
00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:11.220
mentioned.

269
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:13.919
I mean, where have we seen this before, but the Chronicles of

270
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.419
Castra Valver, which Chronicle, the rise of a civilisation up to

271
00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:21.419
and including the present day, but they're 500-year-old books.

272
00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.600
And I think like that's kind of like the guffin that needs to

273
00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:27.539
happen or some kind of, again, here, shadow test that needs to

274
00:14:27.539 --> 00:14:31.559
happen to sort of give that genre, the, um, maybe the sort of

275
00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:34.379
plausible way out of the, the simulation.

276
00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:36.899
Well, I suppose, I suppose if you think about it, there's lots of

277
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:40.799
simulations which don't end in the shadow doctor being able to

278
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.539
send the email to the doctor.

279
00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:46.320
So there logically has to be one where there's a tell like the

280
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.960
Veritas so that he can work it out and succeeds.

281
00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:51.960
And that's why we're following this because we are actually

282
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:55.500
watching the message that the shadow doctor gets to send to the

283
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:55.980
real doctor.

284
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:14.639
Initially, I wasn't as positive about this episode as I am now, I

285
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:18.120
think it is of the ones that we've done so far, and I've watched

286
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:18.659
ahead a bit.

287
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:20.940
I watched the end of the Monk trilogy.

288
00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:26.519
I still think the pilot and thin ice are absolute top tier, Doctor

289
00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:27.899
Who, like incredibly good.

290
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.200
And I think this is nearly as good as those, but initially there

291
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.720
are a couple of things that I didn't like very much.

292
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.740
And perhaps I'm in the position of one of those nerd fans who

293
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:40.679
knows about physics and, you know, it doesn't want the spaceships

294
00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:43.559
to make a noise as they wish past you in space or something.

295
00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:49.620
But, um, this was something that we did before.

296
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:56.700
So trying to find an inconsistency or some part of a fabricated

297
00:15:56.700 --> 00:16:00.720
world that hadn't been properly implemented happens in last

298
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:01.259
Christmas.

299
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.980
And you remember where they've all got the base manual, but the

300
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:07.080
base manual hasn't been completely written.

301
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:10.500
And so they go to a page, you know, random pages and stuff and

302
00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:14.460
they get messages or they all have different things, you know, on

303
00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:16.080
page 27 or whatever.

304
00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:19.559
And that's how we twig that it's not real, that the whole thing

305
00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:21.659
has been made up by the dream crabs.

306
00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:27.419
So here the tell is that computers can't do random numbers.

307
00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:33.960
And I have a website, the Randomiser.net, which runs on a computer

308
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:40.019
which lets you select random Doctor Who stories at random using a

309
00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:44.220
pseudo-random function because computers are deterministic and

310
00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:47.940
whatever their initial state is determines what their subsequent

311
00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:48.779
states are going to be.

312
00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.779
And so there isn't real randomness in a computer at all.

313
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.799
So I was on a podcast called Pull to Open, and they have a

314
00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:59.940
randomiser that actually uses a random number generator that is

315
00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:05.339
kind of online and that actually uses things like the movement of

316
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:12.660
wind and stuff to input an actual element of real randomness in

317
00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:13.140
there.

318
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:15.180
But a computer itself can't do randomness.

319
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:17.940
So you have to have something else happening outside the

320
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:18.299
computer.

321
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.859
In a sense, though, random just means I don't know what it's going

322
00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:24.240
to be next, right?

323
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:26.880
It means unpredictable in a way.

324
00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:33.779
And any means of producing a random number is caused in some way

325
00:17:33.779 --> 00:17:36.059
by the rules of the world.

326
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:40.380
You throw a dice and, you know, it just obeys the laws of physics

327
00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:42.900
and produces a number that you can't predict.

328
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.519
Therefore a random number.

329
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.759
And computers can do that.

330
00:17:47.819 --> 00:17:49.740
We've all played computer games.

331
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:51.900
The same thing doesn't happen each time.

332
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.700
So when the doctor says that computers can't do real randomness

333
00:17:56.700 --> 00:18:00.420
and that in any given computer program, every person is going to

334
00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:02.099
say the same random numbers.

335
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.740
That's clearly demonstrably not true.

336
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:08.220
And so that kind of annoyed me a little bit.

337
00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:10.680
I think at the time.

338
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:13.019
And then the other thing that annoyed me is this.

339
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:20.220
I don't buy that everyone who discovers that they are in a

340
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:22.200
simulation wants to kill themselves.

341
00:18:22.259 --> 00:18:29.579
I think that this is a little bit like the terrifying secret that

342
00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:35.220
faces us all, which is that you are still conscious and sentient

343
00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:39.359
after death, and so the words don't cremate me, you know, being

344
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:43.319
heard over the TV broadcasts and stuff, that's properly terrifying

345
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:44.759
and I know how to react to that.

346
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:49.319
In a sense, we all discover at some point through the kind of

347
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:54.480
process of, you know, just modernity that we are different from

348
00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:55.380
what we thought we were.

349
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.339
Do you know what I mean?

350
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.700
Everyone thought that we were the centre of the universe, that we

351
00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:05.400
were specially created by God, who cares for us, and has put us in

352
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:08.220
a sort of particular position in the world.

353
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:12.059
And the modern world has largely rejected that.

354
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:15.960
And so in a sense, we've discovered that we are different from

355
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.000
what we thought we were.

356
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:23.579
And obviously that's kind of terrifying, perhaps, but the

357
00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:27.299
discovery that you're not real, like that just doesn't mean

358
00:19:27.299 --> 00:19:27.779
anything.

359
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:29.819
I just can't see that that means anything.

360
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.579
Well, it is an overreach, isn't it?

361
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:36.000
The problem with that particular overreach is it's the main

362
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.079
feature of the episode.

363
00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:39.720
Like, it's the driving part of the plot.

364
00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:41.279
It's what gets the doctor into it.

365
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:43.500
It's what has to be resolved.

366
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:45.660
We have to understand that problem.

367
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.920
So that the rest of the story can continue to the climax and it

368
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.279
undermines the whole episode right from the very beginning because

369
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.640
you can't help but go, when I really go on top myself if I read

370
00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:59.700
that book, I just don't, I can't quite see it.

371
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:04.319
And it is the sort of weakness which unfortunately plagues the

372
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.779
entire thing and starts to undermine the premise.

373
00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:08.579
Then once you have an element like that.

374
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.359
You start questioning everything else in the story And I think

375
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:16.319
that the other element like this in the story for me, which

376
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:20.819
doesn't cohere properly, is the idea that virtue is virtue only in

377
00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:24.119
extremists because it's mentioned over and over again.

378
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:26.519
And so it's clearly important to the episode.

379
00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:31.140
And yet we don't really have an example of where anyone puts that

380
00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:31.740
into practice.

381
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:35.400
The closest that we get, I think, is when Missy says, I'm your

382
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:36.539
friend.

383
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:39.839
This is me saying this without expectation of reward or witness or

384
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:40.380
anything.

385
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:40.920
I your friend.

386
00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:46.200
And I think it's setting us up for the finale, which is where

387
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:47.279
Missy does do that.

388
00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:50.700
I thought you were going to say the closest we come is when the

389
00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:52.259
doctor saves Missy's life.

390
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.400
And yet for me that is not really virtue and extremist because the

391
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.559
doctor would never have killed Missy.

392
00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:00.000
We know this about him.

393
00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:02.279
He was never actually going to perform that.

394
00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:06.480
And so it's not really that he is acting in any way differently to

395
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.039
how he would ordinarily behave.

396
00:21:08.099 --> 00:21:11.819
And so there we have these these 2 elements, these 2 really

397
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:13.200
important elements of the story.

398
00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:15.240
One plot-based, one thematic based.

399
00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:18.779
The plot one is about why everyone is committing suicide.

400
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:23.039
The theme one is about the virtue of performing doing the right

401
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.859
thing when it's really, really hard to do the right thing.

402
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.339
And actually neither of them actually land properly.

403
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.819
And so it's very difficult to come out of this story going, wow

404
00:21:32.819 --> 00:21:34.920
that had something really profound to say about either of those

405
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:35.160
things.

406
00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:39.599
I guess the other thing that gets close to it is the doctor faced

407
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:43.559
by a monk now aware that he's not real and that he doesn't

408
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:48.000
actually exist, still, you know, sending the message to make sure

409
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.220
that the doctor gets called.

410
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:54.599
And there's that line, I think, which is, you know, you don't have

411
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:58.500
to be real to be the doctor, which is fortunate because he's not

412
00:21:58.500 --> 00:21:58.799
real.

413
00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:03.839
And I think that as well.

414
00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:08.160
But again, like that sort of extremist, and it is linked, I think

415
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:10.140
explicitly with that plot.

416
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.319
But I still agree with you, I still don't think that theme quite

417
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:14.460
lands.

418
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.940
And I think we have to borrow from the finale in order to get it

419
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:18.240
to work.

420
00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:23.279
I think that's all true, but I'm not sure that it's a failure of

421
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.039
an episode on those counts either, and it doesn't automatically

422
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:29.400
qualify it as a failure, but I think in raising a lot of these

423
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.059
ideas and questions, not all of which are able to be resolved or

424
00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.619
contained within the narrative itself.

425
00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:38.039
I still think that's a really valid form of experimentation for

426
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:39.660
Doctor Who to do every now and then.

427
00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:44.339
And, um, you know, the whole idea that sort of leads up from, you

428
00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:47.279
know, effectively the glitch in the matrix is the precursor to

429
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:52.019
effectively that incredibly, I think the conceptual horror of that

430
00:22:52.019 --> 00:22:58.259
kind of existentialist solipsism, Shardovanian, Shardovanesque, um

431
00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:02.880
idea of like, I'm not real is a really awesome conceptual horror

432
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.299
point to lead up to in the climax of that, of this story.

433
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:09.839
And, you know, the exposition that sort of follows between Bill

434
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:11.880
and the doctor in the White House.

435
00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:16.799
I think is actually really wonderful as a sort of piece of Doctor

436
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:17.279
Who.

437
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:20.400
Now, I'm not saying it succeeds, but at the same time, sort of

438
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.019
exploring these and pushing the boundaries.

439
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:24.299
I think it's a great thing for Doctor Who to be able to do.

440
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:28.380
And, you know, the idea that we have, you know, a puppet doctor or

441
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:32.039
a sim doctor really effectively, um, being able to to rise up

442
00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:36.059
against a simulation and say, no, the idea of the doctor is enough

443
00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:39.480
to save the day is an incredibly powerful and metafictional point

444
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.259
for the show to be making about itself and how it relates in terms

445
00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:46.559
of us as an audience because, you know, it even invokes at some

446
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:50.940
point, um, Terence Sticks is, um, words around, you know, I want

447
00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:51.539
to get this right.

448
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:54.480
You don't have to be real to be to the doctor as long as you never

449
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.019
give up.

450
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.839
And that's just like, yeah, never cruel or cowardly.

451
00:23:57.900 --> 00:23:59.160
Absolutely.

452
00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:01.980
And that's the ethos of Doctor Who, as much as the mythos of

453
00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:03.000
Doctor Who coming through there.

454
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:05.460
And that's incredibly powerful.

455
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.640
And I don't think it's a failed experiment in the same way that

456
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.880
timelash or arc of infinity, or something much worse like the

457
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.420
Saranga conundrum is, where it's just a dearth of ideas, the

458
00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:18.359
experiment here in terms of meta-fictionalizing the construct of

459
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:23.160
Doctor Who, as a not really actually a thing, because it's a

460
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.059
fiction, but sort of playing with that in the form of the fiction

461
00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:28.380
I think is really, really valid.

462
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.799
Um, you know, like a picture of a hand drawing a picture a hand or

463
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:32.819
drawing a picture of a hand.

464
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:33.359
Yeah.

465
00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:48.299
In that scene with the doctor and Bill in the Oval Office, There's

466
00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:50.579
actually a fair bit of deleted dialogue, and I think it was

467
00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:55.019
deleted to sort of keep up the tempo, you know.

468
00:24:55.140 --> 00:25:00.839
Really, the only remnant of the idea it presents is when the CERN

469
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:02.819
scientist says, we're saving the world.

470
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.000
Because what the doctor theorises when he's talking to Bill about

471
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.720
video game characters and the fact that this is a simulation is

472
00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:13.619
this is a simulation designed for people to invade Earth.

473
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.160
Ergo, these people are removing themselves to stop giving data

474
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.480
about what humans would do.

475
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:24.059
Now, if you include that, it adds a nobility, it adds that thing

476
00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:26.160
of without hope, without witness, without reward.

477
00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:30.480
But as it stands, it's kind of like people are just removing

478
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.640
themselves because they can't handle. the reality.

479
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:34.559
And it's nearly there, isn't it?

480
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:39.779
Because Nicola says we're saving the earth and she says, how can

481
00:25:39.779 --> 00:25:40.140
you do that?

482
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.640
And he says, well, this is not the earth.

483
00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:47.640
And so if they were doing that, and if, like, why are we in CERN

484
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.200
does blowing up the cafeteria and CERN destroy the world?

485
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.660
Where did they get the dynamite?

486
00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:59.339
CERN very helpfully has signs saying this is CERN in a service

487
00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:04.259
corridor and a cupboard marked wily coyote dynamo.

488
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.259
Should we blow up the Hadron Collider, or should we blow up the

489
00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:07.980
star room?

490
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:13.980
But I think, I mean, if they'd been blowing up the large Hadron

491
00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:18.599
Collider in order to destroy the world so that the monks wouldn't

492
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.500
get the data from their experiment, that is virtually in extremity

493
00:26:22.619 --> 00:26:24.539
brilliant. and it's so nearly there.

494
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:28.680
I have to say, though, the moment where they look under the table

495
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.920
like the camera goes down with us to see all of the comedy

496
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:36.839
dynamite under the table and then back up and then Bill's reaction

497
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:37.920
is pretty great.

498
00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:39.539
That's pretty awesome.

499
00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:44.400
I think it's great that the idea that the deaths aren't suicide

500
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.799
the doctor says that their escape, and he even mentions in that

501
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.920
scene in the White House around Super Mario deleting himself from

502
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:51.420
the game because he's sick of dying.

503
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.660
This idea that NPGs think they're real, but they actually also

504
00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:57.539
feel the reality that they're experiencing.

505
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:01.500
It's a direct nod to at least one of Moffat's inspirations for

506
00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:05.099
this episode, which is a 2015 piece from the Guardian written by

507
00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:06.000
Charlie Brooker.

508
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:09.420
And in it, he says, German AI researchers have created a version

509
00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:13.019
of Super Mario World starring a self-aware version of Mario, which

510
00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:14.759
doesn't simply play the game by itself.

511
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:17.640
And this is where the conceptual horror comes in, but is

512
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:20.400
psychologically affected by the experience as it does so.

513
00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:24.359
That terrifyingly stupid thing to do is detailed incidentally in

514
00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:27.420
an article entitled, The new Mario is self-aware.

515
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:31.259
How long before he goes inside you to fix things?

516
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.579
I'm excited to keep these.

517
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.619
I've never found that explanation in the doctor's speech about

518
00:27:40.619 --> 00:27:42.420
Mario that convincing.

519
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.140
For me, it's a bit like the random numbers things, but this is a

520
00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:50.039
very complicated story, and I think Moffat knows how to

521
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:54.599
communicate concepts to an audience that doesn't watch shocks with

522
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:56.279
her every week and doesn't know everything about it.

523
00:27:56.339 --> 00:27:59.940
And so I think I think, in a way, you kind of, he kind of gets

524
00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:00.900
away with those things.

525
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:06.180
Is he doing to the cobblins what he's already done to statues?

526
00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:07.680
Do you know what I mean?

527
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:09.240
Like statues are terrifying.

528
00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:14.220
When I've played a lot of Zelda over the last couple of years, a

529
00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:15.240
terrifying amount.

530
00:28:15.299 --> 00:28:20.579
And there's times when you're killing one of the monsters and it

531
00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:24.059
keeps trying to get up but can't, and you know, you've got your

532
00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:28.079
posse and you're kind of all wailing on them and they're kind of

533
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:30.240
crying and then it gives this sort of anguish scream and then

534
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:30.839
explodes.

535
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.480
And I do feel bad. you know what I mean?

536
00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:36.960
And so if Moffatt's there saying, actually, they're experiencing

537
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.160
all of that, and you're a very bad person as a result.

538
00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:44.220
I was kind of suspecting that anyway, I think.

539
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.039
But I think it is Moffat taking an element of the rare world and

540
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:51.900
making it frightening and that that doesn't directly follow from

541
00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:56.640
the idea of a computer simulation, but it is just another sort of

542
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.920
moffity trick in the episode.

543
00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:00.359
And I think that's fine.

544
00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:03.599
You know, we mentioned Dan Brown at the beginning of the episode

545
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.319
and that's very much the cultural text that informs the 1st half

546
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:09.539
of the story, but the 2nd half is the Matrix.

547
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.440
And then I think also beyond that, you know, influences like the

548
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.799
Brooker article and the idea of, you know, Super Mario Land, that's

549
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.059
sentient is terrifying.

550
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:21.299
But there is also this idea, I think, from some strain of quantum

551
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:25.380
sciences around the idea that we actually do live in a holographic

552
00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:28.799
projection of a universe that is real, but our one actually

553
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:29.400
isn't.

554
00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:32.519
And, you know, there seems to be all sorts of, you know, scientific

555
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:35.700
formulae or an equation that seem to suggest that that's the

556
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:35.940
case.

557
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.700
And, you know, these are all these influences and whether it's, you

558
00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:43.920
know, uh, movies and films and books, uh, as well as ideas that

559
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:46.559
are out there that are, that I think Movit likes to play with and

560
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:50.039
package up into these neat little bows. again, does it work?

561
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:54.059
Not entirely, but again, that experimentation of thought within 45

562
00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:58.019
minutes of Doctor Who, where you take on these great big ideas, and

563
00:29:58.019 --> 00:30:01.140
I hear I am defending Castro Albra as much as I'm defending

564
00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:01.859
streamers.

565
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:03.779
Well, the Castro Valver needs to be...

566
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.740
I think it's incredibly valid and Doctor Who does need to do that

567
00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:08.400
occasionally.

568
00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:12.900
I think one of the other influences on Moffat is the West Wing.

569
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:16.380
And he talks about his admiration for it quite a lot.

570
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:22.440
And in his show running tenure, He uses the White House and the

571
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:28.019
Oval Office as settings for various stories.

572
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:33.539
And as it gets further in, Capaldi comes closer and closer to the

573
00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:36.779
seats of power until he becomes the president of the world or

574
00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:37.319
something like that.

575
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.099
I find this particularly unsatisfying, but that doesn't really

576
00:30:41.099 --> 00:30:41.400
matter.

577
00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:45.299
I think that where it is in this episode is that he's interested

578
00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:49.680
in these seats of power, the Vatican, the White House, the

579
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.640
Pentagon, you know, and so he wants to put the doctor into these

580
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.579
worlds and see how that works out a bit.

581
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.359
And it's, you know, he's sort of premised that the doctor should

582
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.460
be the president of the world.

583
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.519
Is reinforced in that last scene where he's sitting behind the

584
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:07.440
president's desk at the Oval Office.

585
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:12.779
So I think that as well as the influences which are thinking about

586
00:31:12.779 --> 00:31:19.500
worlds within cyberspace and worlds which are informed by popular

587
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:23.819
literary fiction, like Dan Brown, he's also drawing on these

588
00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:27.599
televisual influences all the time too, the ones he admires, I

589
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:27.839
think.

590
00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:48.779
Can we just talk quickly about the space that projects those

591
00:31:48.779 --> 00:31:49.680
realities?

592
00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:52.500
And it's a classic Moffat thing, isn't it?

593
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.220
You just assume that they're projecting the doors and then we

594
00:31:56.220 --> 00:32:00.779
discover, no, they're projecting the spaces behind the doors and

595
00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:03.420
that's a classic, you know, reinterpretation of what's going on

596
00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:05.880
which we get over and over again in Moffat episodes.

597
00:32:05.940 --> 00:32:11.700
This is directed by Daniel Netheim, who directed the Zygon 2

598
00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:18.180
parter last year. and I think he directs next week.

599
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.059
And he'd not long been off Broadchurch at this point.

600
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:25.200
And I think visually it's just absolutely superb, isn't it?

601
00:32:25.259 --> 00:32:26.940
You've got that white space.

602
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.819
You've got the projectors, which are just kind of boxes, aren't

603
00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:33.000
they?

604
00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:37.380
They're just sort of prisms, you know, that are that with a circle

605
00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:40.559
on them and then that scary black space in the middle where

606
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.480
there's no projection taking place.

607
00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:46.200
And there's just a brilliant shot where that's in the foreground

608
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:47.640
and you're not quite sure what it is.

609
00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:49.980
I think it's really well done.

610
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:54.000
And had we decided to go for a more kind of space science fiction

611
00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:56.759
y thing, it would have been vastly inferior, I think.

612
00:32:56.819 --> 00:32:58.319
Just on that space.

613
00:32:58.380 --> 00:32:59.880
I absolutely agree with you.

614
00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:02.819
It kind of looks like an Ursat's Tartars.

615
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.759
Daniel Netheim, by the way, just returned to him.

616
00:33:05.819 --> 00:33:06.240
Australian.

617
00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:11.160
Yes. has directed All Saints, episodes of Secret Life of Us, and

618
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:12.539
K9.

619
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:14.880
Oh wow. of which I've seen.

620
00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:21.180
So quite possibly the only Doctor Who creative, aside from Bob

621
00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:24.539
Baker, to have been involved in the production of K9?

622
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:25.680
Oh, John Lason?

623
00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:27.240
That's true.

624
00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:27.779
That's true.

625
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.359
I think that this is a really well-directed episode.

626
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:32.279
And it's really stylish.

627
00:33:32.339 --> 00:33:36.180
And I think apart perhaps from the interiors of CERN, which do

628
00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:37.140
look a little bit.

629
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.859
We've posted some quick Photoshop posters on the wall to let you

630
00:33:40.859 --> 00:33:41.759
know that this is certain.

631
00:33:41.819 --> 00:33:45.119
The rest of it is beautiful in terms of its art direction.

632
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.359
And it's really, it's a really beautiful polished looking

633
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:49.500
episode.

634
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.619
And I think that's one of the things that keeps it going for me is

635
00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:54.000
that his direction's so nice.

636
00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:57.720
A lot of the iconography, I think, as well, you know, that Ursat's

637
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.720
Tardis console room that I was talking about, and, you know, the

638
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.019
sort of dusty corridors and darkened, you know, for arcade

639
00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:07.319
knowledge of the, um, hair, you can have to help me out here

640
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:07.619
Nathan.

641
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.179
Hereticum. hereticum.

642
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:14.340
And also, I guess the composition and the direction and the shots

643
00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:15.659
around the monks as well.

644
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.559
It just gave me this vibe that these were meant to be almost like

645
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:23.519
anti-time lords, that there was this hugely impressive, you know

646
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:24.780
incredibly powerful race.

647
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:29.820
Now, I don't like how the next 2 episodes pan out and I think the

648
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.619
mystery of the monks is largely thrown away.

649
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.500
But this is another reason why I absolutely love this story

650
00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:38.159
because it kind of suggests for me that there is this antithetical

651
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.500
force to the time lords out there that maybe have taken their

652
00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:43.679
place after the destruction of Gallifrey in the 50th.

653
00:34:43.739 --> 00:34:45.840
And I just wondered where this was all going.

654
00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:48.599
I thought it was very, very mystical and interesting.

655
00:34:48.659 --> 00:34:50.340
So what I think it is.

656
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:54.179
I think it's no coincidence, that in a story that foregrounds the

657
00:34:54.179 --> 00:34:57.840
Catholic church, the villains are the monks, and that the monks

658
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.980
look like corpses, and that they're wandering these sort of

659
00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:07.739
corridors and things, they're wearing kind of robes that, not like

660
00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:12.900
a Franciscan friar or something, but glamorous monks' robes.

661
00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:18.960
And I have to think that given the way the story pans out, that

662
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:26.280
they have to, in some sense, be religious leaders, and hence why

663
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:32.579
they need to be loved, why they need your consent in order to

664
00:35:32.579 --> 00:35:33.480
dominate you.

665
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:38.159
And that's why I think that they're called monks.

666
00:35:38.219 --> 00:35:43.559
And this time for the 1st time, I think I kind of got that.

667
00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:48.000
I mean, in the lie of the land, their pyramid in London is called

668
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:49.440
the cathedral.

669
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:56.880
And imagine what this would have been like had the pyramid at the

670
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:00.420
end of the world, and then the pyramid in the 3rd episode, instead

671
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.840
been some crazed Gothic monstrosity.

672
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:09.480
And instead of being sort of essentially plywood flats, you know

673
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:13.559
the interior of the pyramid is astoundingly cheap and crappy.

674
00:36:13.619 --> 00:36:17.400
But if it had been much more gothic and terrifying.

675
00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:21.420
So, so when we go to the Catholic Church, when we see the pope and

676
00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:25.320
we go to the Vatican and stuff, we're stepping back in time in a

677
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:30.119
way to a way of understanding things that's kind of passed, but

678
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:34.679
but that lingers on, and then you've got the monks who are like a

679
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:40.559
dead, more ancient and terrifying version of that, that's coercive

680
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:41.820
that wants to rule the world.

681
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:47.699
So I think that that's what the monks are.

682
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:53.940
And I think that there are some failures of design, and maybe a

683
00:36:53.940 --> 00:36:59.039
reluctance to fully commit to that idea, that means the monks end

684
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:00.960
up ultimately not landing.

685
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:06.119
Because, I mean, they're the angels and the silence that have a

686
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:07.260
very clear look.

687
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.119
You know, the monks are like that.

688
00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:13.139
They've got this stupid thing where the monk opens his mouth and

689
00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:16.619
then the actor says the lines, which I just think looks dreadful.

690
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:20.039
This is why I was thinking that they were going to be cybermen.

691
00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:24.480
Yeah, and that's because, was it, Jerry Davis or Cabe Hedler

692
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.300
imagine the Cyberman to be Star Monks at the very beginning?

693
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:31.920
And maybe that was just being led down the wrong path by Moffatt.

694
00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:35.579
But Moffatt does, you know, there's it keeps coming up, the

695
00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:38.820
headless monks, the clerics, that whatever that church was that

696
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:40.019
Tasha Lane's in.

697
00:37:40.019 --> 00:37:40.800
Yeah, the mainframe.

698
00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:41.159
Yeah.

699
00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:44.280
So it's clearly a matter of interest to him.

700
00:37:44.340 --> 00:37:48.119
Even his most recent episode, this season, boom.

701
00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:53.760
Like, like a tax faith, really, you know, quite head on. and has

702
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.880
the monks and I think they're Anglican, aren't they?

703
00:37:56.940 --> 00:38:00.119
So we've kind of dealt with the Anglicans, they're out of the

704
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:00.300
way.

705
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:03.360
And now doing the Catholic Church this season.

706
00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:06.119
But it is a clear obsession of his, isn't it?

707
00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:09.900
Yeah, it's not something you see in RTD's war, but it's this sort

708
00:38:09.900 --> 00:38:14.460
of, maybe it's his interest in the juxtaposition of people of

709
00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:18.539
faith or people of religion being also morally ambiguous because

710
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:22.199
not all of these religious characters that Moffat puts up are

711
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:22.739
villains.

712
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.280
No.

713
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:28.679
Some of them are heroes, but it's a sense, it's a sense of slight

714
00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.380
A, I think it's a sense of slight wonder that these, these

715
00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:33.659
structures are going to last that far into the future.

716
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:41.099
And then secondly, this idea that if you talk about a church or a

717
00:38:41.099 --> 00:38:43.800
series of religion, you know it's made up of a hierarchy.

718
00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:47.820
So you can talk about archbishops or priests or, you know, and

719
00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:49.500
people will kind of go, okay, I kind of know.

720
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:53.099
It's kind of shorthand for a sort of schema that they kind of get

721
00:38:53.099 --> 00:38:53.940
already.

722
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.800
So it's not a bad shorthand.

723
00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:57.360
Yeah, yeah.

724
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:01.199
I mean, he's remaking aliens when he introduces that church for

725
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:02.099
the 1st time.

726
00:39:02.219 --> 00:39:06.480
And so instead of saying generals and and and colonels and things

727
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:10.260
like that, He's, you know, verge of fetch the ammunition and they

728
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.000
think, like all of that's funny.

729
00:39:12.059 --> 00:39:13.440
And the biscuits.

730
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:14.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

731
00:39:14.460 --> 00:39:15.059
Yeah.

732
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:16.800
So I think you're right.

733
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:20.400
He just substitutes one hierarchical organisation for another

734
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:23.940
gives it a bit of colour, makes it much more interesting than it

735
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:26.400
would have been had it just been space mercenaries.

736
00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:30.480
And then he does go on to investigate things about religion and

737
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:34.380
how odd it is and the ambiguities that you mentioned.

738
00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:36.300
It does become a thing of his.

739
00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:41.340
There's another deleted bit that talks about religion and that's

740
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:44.699
when the doctor's wondering, you know, why has he sent this to

741
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:45.239
CERN?

742
00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:49.440
You know, pretty much what did the church and nuclear physicists

743
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:50.099
have in common?

744
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:53.880
And it's actually Nardol, who says both are looking for ways to

745
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.219
measure and honour the invisible?

746
00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:58.380
Oh, that's interesting.

747
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:01.260
And, you know, that introduces the idea that the translator is

748
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:03.900
like, okay, well, the church know.

749
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.900
Now our scientific equivalent needs to know.

750
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.920
Yeah, you know, and they respond in the same way.

751
00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:14.400
Like the translators are like, we must remove ourselves from the

752
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:15.420
data.

753
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:17.400
And the scientists are like, we must remove ourselves from the

754
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:17.699
data.

755
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.420
And again, that would have been great if it hadn't been... just a

756
00:40:21.420 --> 00:40:22.380
little bit more spelled out.

757
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:27.179
Like, it's there, but perhaps we have to dig a bit too deeply for

758
00:40:27.179 --> 00:40:28.860
it in a 45 minute episode.

759
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.920
I think we're also spoilt because Moffatt's scripts are usually so

760
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.940
polished and this one just doesn't doesn't quite have it.

761
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:38.460
And, you know, as you're saying, it's nearly there.

762
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:39.960
I think that's really right.

763
00:40:40.019 --> 00:40:43.619
It's kind of one draft away from really nailing it.

764
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.920
The structure's even so brilliant that I always like to pause the

765
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:50.460
episode roughly halfway to see if there is a cliffhanger.

766
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:54.059
And the cliffhanger in this is just as the doctor switches on the

767
00:40:54.059 --> 00:40:57.179
reader device and it falls unconscious, having said this may burn

768
00:40:57.179 --> 00:40:58.800
out my brain and it cuts to black.

769
00:40:58.860 --> 00:41:00.960
And that is the exact midpoint of the episode.

770
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:03.840
It's like, there's, you know, there's your 25 minute cliffhanger

771
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:04.860
Mr. Levin, you know.

772
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:21.780
I think another way in which the episode sort of shows that it's

773
00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:24.539
not particularly polished and maybe flaws this in a way that's

774
00:41:24.539 --> 00:41:28.500
greater than the way it fails to sort of capture and hold all of

775
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:31.199
the different and conflicting ideas is the denimant or the

776
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.800
resolution at the end, where we cut back to the missy execution

777
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:35.400
sequence.

778
00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:39.480
And in particular, there's that sort of bit of more mythologising

779
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:42.420
which I'm usually pro, to be perfectly honest, in terms of Moffat

780
00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:46.679
scripts, and, you know, the executioner asks, are you are unarmed

781
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:49.380
doctors as always, you stand alone, often.

782
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.659
You should be the one who is afraid.

783
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:52.139
Never.

784
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.380
And there's that comic piece where the executioner runs away.

785
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:56.039
Have a nice day then.

786
00:41:57.539 --> 00:42:00.719
You write about this in random hooners, Johnny.

787
00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:04.739
I think it actually is a failure in the way that the doctor is

788
00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:08.820
presented, almost as a moral force at the end of the story, and

789
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:11.760
what's being celebrated here, and my initial assumption, which was

790
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.940
actually wrong when I go back and rewatch it, was that it's not

791
00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:18.960
the number of deaths that he's responsible for, but a number of

792
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.679
times he has cheated death, which I think would have been far more

793
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:26.760
perhaps, in keeping with the doctor as a figure of hope and life

794
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:28.260
and renewal, et cetera.

795
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.739
But here it's actually, as you say, in your blog, Johnny, it's

796
00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:34.199
actually really quite nasty because it's basically we'll have a

797
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:36.599
look at all the number and, you know, perhaps even 1000000s of

798
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:38.280
people that I've killed and fear me for it.

799
00:42:38.460 --> 00:42:43.260
It is the same trick that he pulls with the Vashta Narada in

800
00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:45.179
silence in the library.

801
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.699
And so it is a thing that Moffatt has done before.

802
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.900
And remember, it was the question that Bill asked of him just a

803
00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:54.000
few episodes ago in thin ice.

804
00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:55.920
How many people have you killed?

805
00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:59.940
And so this, because there's this really funny bit at the

806
00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:03.780
beginning, the fatality index and he gets to be, the character's

807
00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:04.739
called Refando, I think.

808
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:05.579
Refando.

809
00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:08.880
Yeah, he gets to do the opening monologue at the sort of very

810
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:09.659
beginning of the episode.

811
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:12.059
And he says death is an increasing problem.

812
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.000
And I kind of think, well, no everyone just gets one of them.

813
00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:18.179
I don't know I'm not sure that it's increasing.

814
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:21.719
But there's so many different people and it's really hard to be

815
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:22.980
able to kill them all.

816
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:24.119
He's really great.

817
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:25.739
Super plea.

818
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:30.360
And then to have him kind of terrified by the doctor, and it is a

819
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:31.920
really funny moment, isn't it?

820
00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:34.559
Where he looks it up and like his watch is just beeping and

821
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:35.519
beeping and beeping.

822
00:43:35.579 --> 00:43:37.980
And by the time he runs away, it's trilling.

823
00:43:38.099 --> 00:43:42.119
Like it's beeping faster and faster and faster as all of these

824
00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:43.619
people are killed.

825
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.039
And yes, it does sort of undermine the doctor a bit, you know, in

826
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:52.320
a pretty serious way, but the show has been going for so long and

827
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:56.460
he is responsible for a bunch of deaths every episode and that's

828
00:43:56.460 --> 00:43:58.440
what Moffatt wants to look at.

829
00:43:58.500 --> 00:44:02.039
You know, Moffatt wants to look at, what it's like for this person

830
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:08.280
who every 4 episodes explodes all the bad guys and wins every

831
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:09.059
single time.

832
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:13.559
Even that, that 1st uh, Matt Smith thing, the 1st Moffatt episode

833
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:16.440
where he just confronts the attraction says, I'm the doctor

834
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:18.239
basically runs.

835
00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:21.960
You know, like making him a terrifying figure is something that I

836
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.679
like, problematizing the doctor is interesting.

837
00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:29.940
And I think when the new series doesn't do that when it tries to

838
00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.960
walk away from it.

839
00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:34.380
That's one of the reasons why I think it fails.

840
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.699
You see, I've never liked the doctor waving his CV as a way of

841
00:44:38.699 --> 00:44:39.960
ending the episode.

842
00:44:40.019 --> 00:44:44.280
And I've never liked it from Silence in the Library onwards.

843
00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:46.500
And it props up again and again again.

844
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:52.260
I think not only does it strike me as as, um, presuming a level of

845
00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:55.860
knowledge about Doctor Who, that that your general audience

846
00:44:55.860 --> 00:45:01.440
perhaps doesn't necessarily have, but in this case, it just seems

847
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:05.099
particularly nasty because it's positioning the doctor very

848
00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:06.119
clearly as a killer.

849
00:45:06.179 --> 00:45:06.780
Yeah.

850
00:45:06.780 --> 00:45:10.920
And so, I think you're right, Nathan, that there's this undeniable

851
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:13.260
there's this inescapable truth that actually what he does is kill

852
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:13.739
a lot of people.

853
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:19.559
And then say at the end of the 11th hour, he says, you know, I'm

854
00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:22.739
the doctor and actually, I'm responsible for, I'm the guy who's

855
00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:24.900
going to police all you bad guys, so you should be aware of that.

856
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:25.500
He's one level.

857
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.280
This level, which is, actually, look how many people I've killed.

858
00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:33.900
So that builds upon my initial dislike of the whole gimmick on it

859
00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:35.699
which gets wheeled out over and over again.

860
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:38.099
And I don't actually think it's very funny.

861
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:40.679
And I think the joke doesn't really land.

862
00:45:40.739 --> 00:45:45.119
And I think the poor actor playing Rodolfo has to kind of over-reg

863
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:46.739
it a bit to try and make it work.

864
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:51.420
And so I think it, I think it's, you know, a cleverer way of

865
00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:54.000
ending that scene might have been.

866
00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:56.039
And I think the clever ending actually is.

867
00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:56.820
What has he done?

868
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.840
He hasn't killed Missy.

869
00:45:57.900 --> 00:45:58.860
He just saved her, right?

870
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:01.920
He's a champion of life and time to sort of borrow from the 8th

871
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:02.699
doctor adventures.

872
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.699
And that's the out here. you know, this is not someone that you

873
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:06.480
can kill easily.

874
00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:07.920
And if you try, you're going to fail.

875
00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:10.320
So you may as well run away rather than he's killed lots of people

876
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.000
and you may well kill you, so run away.

877
00:46:12.059 --> 00:46:14.219
I don't have a problem with him waving the CV.

878
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:19.380
The, you know, on the rooftop of the hospital in, um, the 11th

879
00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:19.619
hour.

880
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:20.280
I think is wonderful.

881
00:46:20.340 --> 00:46:22.980
It's like the Christmas invasion where the doctor says it is

882
00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:23.400
defended.

883
00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:25.500
You know, it is the same moment, isn't it?

884
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:26.639
Like, I'm defending you.

885
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:27.960
Oh, no, because he's just.

886
00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:30.179
He's just defeated the enemy before he says it.

887
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:34.139
He's shown something and then he said, you know, I'll do it again

888
00:46:34.139 --> 00:46:34.500
if you.

889
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:37.260
Oh, no, but doesn't doesn't he do that with the attracti?

890
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.159
He actually calls them back.

891
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:41.820
Now, now this is why you stay away.

892
00:46:42.059 --> 00:46:44.940
And I think doing that occasionally works really well.

893
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:46.260
The silence in the library bit.

894
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.300
I love that because I like to imagine that there's all the target

895
00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:51.480
books of eternity.

896
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:54.179
And, you know, they're able to read them for themselves.

897
00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:57.539
But, you know, the alliance, the Stonehenge, and, you know, he

898
00:46:57.539 --> 00:46:58.980
basically is staring into strike.

899
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:00.780
Who would be the 1st to take that shot?

900
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:02.460
And what if you missed?

901
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:03.719
Like, it's wonderful.

902
00:47:03.780 --> 00:47:06.539
But in this sort of instance, I just sort of think there's another

903
00:47:06.539 --> 00:47:08.940
way out here and it's not positioning the doctor as a killer, but

904
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:10.739
as someone who just is undefeatable.

905
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.179
Well, in fact, what you have is Nardol turning up with a message

906
00:47:15.179 --> 00:47:18.719
from River Song saying you're not allowed to kill her.

907
00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:21.059
You know, I won't tolerate it.

908
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:24.000
I'll kick your ass from beyond the grave if you do it.

909
00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:27.599
And that is one of the roles of the companion as well, is to stay

910
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:28.500
the doctor's hand.

911
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:29.280
You know.

912
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.519
We saw what the doctor is like.

913
00:47:32.579 --> 00:47:37.199
Even pre-moffit in the runaway bride, you know, where the doctor

914
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.920
flushes all those spiders down the scene, and Donna is kind of

915
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:44.099
horrified by what he's become without someone with him.

916
00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:47.400
So it's, it's still, it's something that Russell does as well.

917
00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:50.460
And I think it's something that Moffatt really properly leans

918
00:47:50.460 --> 00:47:50.820
into.

919
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:57.059
I think because it's not resolving the episode, because it's in a

920
00:47:57.059 --> 00:48:01.139
you know, Doctor Who often plays the future for comedy in a way

921
00:48:01.139 --> 00:48:03.900
that it doesn't play the present or the past necessarily.

922
00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:08.099
And so this is an absurd, you know, this is this subplot is is

923
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:09.239
kind of absurd.

924
00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:14.579
But I think it's a good way to resolve this subplot and to get us

925
00:48:14.579 --> 00:48:15.719
to where we are.

926
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:19.739
And it's in the context of the season, where at the halfway point

927
00:48:19.739 --> 00:48:20.820
this is episode six.

928
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:23.820
We already suspect it's missier, I think.

929
00:48:24.780 --> 00:48:30.420
And just that opening scene too, it's absolutely not clear who's

930
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:31.139
going to kill who.

931
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:33.900
Like we don't know who is being executed.

932
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:38.579
And it's only when Missy kneels down that we know that it's her.

933
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:40.860
Like all of that stuff is sort of pretty fun.

934
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:46.260
And for a silly throwaway scene like that, the amount of effort

935
00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:50.519
that they've gone to to make it look just incredible, you know

936
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:52.380
like where are they?

937
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:56.340
And they've all, we've talked, we've talked about, like in thin

938
00:48:56.340 --> 00:49:00.000
ice and we talked about in smile, the way that they are able

939
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:03.420
seamlessly, I think, to create these landscapes.

940
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:07.679
Here it's not quite seamless, but it is still very good, I think.

941
00:49:07.739 --> 00:49:09.599
Yeah, it's a beautiful location.

942
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:10.260
Yeah.

943
00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:15.059
And the weaker bits of sort of CGI, they don't linger on too

944
00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:15.300
long.

945
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:18.059
So I think it's quite, it's quite pitiful.

946
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:20.400
And actually, that fellow's wearing a kind of religious robe.

947
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:22.739
Yeah, yeah, execution, to add into this.

948
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:27.119
But I think that there's something about, I'm not mad about the

949
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:29.940
pacing of that whole subplot.

950
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.940
So I think there's, because we cut backwards and forwards from the

951
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:37.980
Veritas plot. to this plot and there's a lot going on in the

952
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:40.199
Veritas plot and there's a lot to it. explain.

953
00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:44.760
There's not so much going on in the execution plot.

954
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.719
And so it feels like we're being drawn back to that and it's

955
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:50.039
moving more slowly.

956
00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:52.320
In fact, you mentioned Castro Valva.

957
00:49:52.380 --> 00:49:55.260
I thought of Inferno because I thought of constantly flipping back

958
00:49:55.260 --> 00:49:57.360
and forwards between those 2 worlds.

959
00:49:57.420 --> 00:50:00.599
But in Inferno, they're running, they're running more or less at

960
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:03.719
the same speed where this feels like we have to slow down to go

961
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:05.099
back to the execution applaud.

962
00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:11.579
It, I mean, that thing is present at the beginning, you know, it's

963
00:50:11.579 --> 00:50:14.219
it's present at the beginning of the episode and at the end of the

964
00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:18.719
episode, but we can't back to it during the simulation, the bit

965
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:22.139
that's been demarcated during the simulation.

966
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:26.039
And I think in a way, it tells us that the doctor's real, because

967
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:30.599
both our doctor, from the beginning and the end of the episode, and

968
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:34.619
the doctor within the episode has the same flashbacks and

969
00:50:34.619 --> 00:50:35.699
remembers Missy.

970
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.940
That's not a simulation because the monks are simulating earth.

971
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:41.699
They're not simulating the entire universe.

972
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:45.360
And so the shadow doctor has the doctor's memory.

973
00:50:45.420 --> 00:50:50.579
And it does comment perhaps not as cleverly as it might in a

974
00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:54.599
normal Moffat script, but it does kind of comment on what just has

975
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:56.699
gone before, I think.

976
00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:59.820
There tends to be a link between, you know, the framing story and

977
00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:00.599
the flashback.

978
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:05.460
But I think, you know, like we get to see Michelle Copez.

979
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.219
Give almost anything.

980
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:10.860
Yeah, look, it's the doctor and the master in a quarry.

981
00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:14.039
What more do you need?

982
00:51:14.340 --> 00:51:19.800
And you know, I think there's possibly a way to still have the

983
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:22.320
doctor give that speech about how many people he's killed, but

984
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:24.300
just change the emphasis slightly too.

985
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:27.420
Yes, I have killed all these people.

986
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:29.940
Don't you think I have a good reason to save her life?

987
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:35.099
And, you know, there's been a big deal in the lead up made to made

988
00:51:35.099 --> 00:51:38.219
the fact that these people are very serious about death and there

989
00:51:38.219 --> 00:51:40.440
are rules to follow when there are protocols and they had to get

990
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:42.719
someone of their own species to do it.

991
00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:44.579
You know, they don't throw the switch.

992
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:48.360
Someone from our own species does, which in a way gives the doctor

993
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:51.780
the power to say, no, I do know better than you in this scenario.

994
00:51:51.900 --> 00:51:55.739
And also that being said, Nardol has been expressing doubt as to

995
00:51:55.739 --> 00:51:58.139
whether this is a good idea all the way through.

996
00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:03.000
So for the doctor to then be, you know, really unpleasant with

997
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:07.920
saying, hey, look up my 1000000s of deaths, it's kind of saying, oh

998
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:11.880
yeah, this, this, this may not end well. and that tension is

999
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:15.480
maintained over the next few episodes, especially in the lie of

1000
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:19.199
the land where, again, Michelle Gomez is the best thing in the lie

1001
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:20.400
of land and her scenes there.

1002
00:52:20.460 --> 00:52:24.659
You know, the tension in Empress of Mars when she comes to rescue

1003
00:52:24.659 --> 00:52:28.139
them and then, of course, the finale, which we'll get to.

1004
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:31.019
I think I agree that it might have been better if the doctor's

1005
00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:33.960
point had been more about, I've cheated death so much.

1006
00:52:34.019 --> 00:52:35.340
She's cheated death so much.

1007
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.579
If I'd done that something, just, you know, something else would

1008
00:52:38.579 --> 00:52:41.519
have happened, you know, and she'd still be alive, just let us get

1009
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:42.059
away with this.

1010
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:45.780
I mean, I still just think the point is that the doctor is so much

1011
00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:48.239
better at this than Refano. is.

1012
00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:48.900
Do you know what I mean?

1013
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:51.900
Like, he's the expert on killing people.

1014
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:54.719
And he just goes, actually, look me up.

1015
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:57.119
And the guy goes, oh, yeah, all right.

1016
00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:00.659
You know, and even in that situation, even if Refando wasn't

1017
00:53:00.659 --> 00:53:03.599
scared, but instead went, oh, you know about death.

1018
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:04.800
I know about...

1019
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:05.400
Okay, fine.

1020
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:07.860
I'll go have a cup of tea because clearly I'm dealing with an

1021
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:08.219
expert.

1022
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:12.480
Yeah, that would have been, yeah, heroic of the doctor to say

1023
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:16.619
missy, but also funny instead of the usual thing of, I'm the

1024
00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:17.519
doctor basically run.

1025
00:53:17.579 --> 00:53:19.800
We're building up to I'm the doctor basically one, and Rafando

1026
00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:21.599
just goes, oh, I didn't know you were an expert.

1027
00:53:21.659 --> 00:53:23.039
Oh okay.

1028
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:27.239
Look, I've got I've got some Dravans over here that I need to like

1029
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:31.019
chuck into an acid pond on Bortis, you know, so I'm just going to

1030
00:53:31.019 --> 00:53:34.199
go do that. a busy man.

1031
00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:37.380
Death is an increasing problem.

1032
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:44.760
One other thing I will say about missy with this is B&M, the UK

1033
00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:48.360
chain of stores have been releasing and re-releasing Doctor 2

1034
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:50.699
action figures and new paintways and what have you.

1035
00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:54.420
And they released a set based on this season.

1036
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:57.360
So it's Capaldi in his red velvet coat.

1037
00:53:57.539 --> 00:54:04.260
Bill in, I think, one of her outfits from the pilot, and Missy

1038
00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:04.800
from this.

1039
00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:09.000
And you'll notice in this story, Missy has sort of this blue

1040
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:09.960
eyeshadow.

1041
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:13.739
Yeah, the action figure, they really slap it on there.

1042
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:16.980
She really slaps it on there, to be honest.

1043
00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:18.360
She really slaps it on.

1044
00:54:18.420 --> 00:54:22.860
But on Michelle Gomez, the actual physical person, it really looks

1045
00:54:22.860 --> 00:54:23.219
great.

1046
00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:27.300
On this figure, it looks like Homer Simpson's makeup gun.

1047
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:34.860
To the point that I have thought, um, if I've got a spare Yaz

1048
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:35.460
lying around.

1049
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:38.579
I could make a Nicola Tesla's Night of Terror, Yaz out of this

1050
00:54:38.579 --> 00:54:39.239
just...

1051
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:41.039
Get around the missing...

1052
00:54:41.099 --> 00:54:43.079
Ingrid Pitt in, more is it the D?

1053
00:54:43.139 --> 00:54:45.360
He's a bit like that, isn't it?

1054
00:54:45.420 --> 00:54:45.719
Yes.

1055
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:49.320
With karate chop action.

1056
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:53.340
Yeah, you really can't have enough Michelle Gomez is an episode

1057
00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:53.519
really.

1058
00:54:53.579 --> 00:54:58.559
I think that she, um, she's obviously limited in what she can do.

1059
00:54:58.619 --> 00:55:02.460
But because she manages to do so much with stillness.

1060
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:06.480
You know, so that a lot of her scenes with the doctor, of her

1061
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:10.920
pleading or of her making wisecracks, you know, minutes before her

1062
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:11.460
own death.

1063
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:15.599
She feels a much bigger part of episode than I think than her

1064
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:18.599
screen time would show.

1065
00:55:18.659 --> 00:55:22.380
Like, I think she's a bigger presence always in an episode than

1066
00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:24.119
the lines that she delivers.

1067
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:27.539
I think there's one really beautiful moment which kind of

1068
00:55:27.539 --> 00:55:32.639
prefigures where she's going as a character, which is where she

1069
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:37.320
says, I thought you'd retired, domestic bliss on derelium, what

1070
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:37.920
happened?

1071
00:55:37.980 --> 00:55:43.019
And the doctor just looks at her, and she says, oh, I'm sorry, my

1072
00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:46.559
condolences, but she means it, like she's not being arch.

1073
00:55:46.619 --> 00:55:48.780
She actually genuinely means it.

1074
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:52.500
And there was another line cut there, which is a good thing it was

1075
00:55:52.500 --> 00:55:54.780
cut, which is when he's about to throw the switch.

1076
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:58.440
She says goodbye, sweetie, which would have totally undermined

1077
00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:00.719
that. genuine expression.

1078
00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:05.940
And, you know, one thing you can say about Moffat is he's really

1079
00:56:05.940 --> 00:56:07.260
good at killing his darlings.

1080
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:10.139
Like he'll put every idea on paper and then as soon as it doesn't

1081
00:56:10.139 --> 00:56:12.360
work, he'll say, no, get rid of it.

1082
00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:13.139
Yeah.

1083
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:13.500
Yeah.

1084
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:20.099
Another indication of the problems with pays comes about in that

1085
00:56:20.099 --> 00:56:27.059
simulation storyline when them and Cardinal Angelo walking around

1086
00:56:27.059 --> 00:56:30.900
and they're almost about to go into the cage, but one of the monks

1087
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:34.320
comes through the wall and then they repel them somehow and then

1088
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.260
Cardinal Angelo says, I've got to stay here and check there's not

1089
00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:38.460
a breach.

1090
00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:41.159
And I don't know who the actor is, but he's clearly gone to Rada

1091
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:42.539
for wall acting, right?

1092
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:45.480
Because he's standing there and he's checking the wall.

1093
00:56:45.539 --> 00:56:46.679
There's really not much he can do.

1094
00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:50.039
He's got one hand up, he puts the other hand up, and then the

1095
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:52.920
doctor and co walk away and have a really lengthy scene.

1096
00:56:52.980 --> 00:56:57.360
They have a really lengthy piece of dialogue and it's about 4 or 5

1097
00:56:57.360 --> 00:56:59.400
minutes before we cut back to Cardinal Angelo.

1098
00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:01.019
He's still checking the war.

1099
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:03.300
Right, and it's not...

1100
00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:06.599
I don't know how long it takes to check a wall on the Radicum, but

1101
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:09.480
I suspect not that much, and that's when he gets eaten by the

1102
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:09.780
monk.

1103
00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:12.539
And it's just another little thing of us going, yeah, this all

1104
00:57:12.539 --> 00:57:14.820
just needs tightening up just a little bit, I think.

1105
00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:17.940
It's a little bit like Piero as well.

1106
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.500
You know, the last translator who sort of runs off and then waits

1107
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:26.099
around for a bit before shooting himself to the point where it's

1108
00:57:26.099 --> 00:57:26.340
funny.

1109
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:27.480
Do you know what I mean?

1110
00:57:27.900 --> 00:57:31.679
Can you delay committing suicide until we can put the joke in

1111
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:32.099
front of you?

1112
00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:33.119
That's right.

1113
00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:34.139
I've got a great line.

1114
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:35.579
Yeah.

1115
00:57:35.579 --> 00:57:36.059
Yeah.

1116
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:38.280
Yeah, it's a bit like ADSF movie.

1117
00:57:38.340 --> 00:57:39.300
No, don't jump.

1118
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:41.579
Okay, I've got the camera set up.

1119
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:42.719
You can you can jump now.

1120
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:48.719
I'm filming Before we were recording, Nathan and I were discussing

1121
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:52.440
the great missing text, which is not the veritas, it is, in fact

1122
00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:54.539
the series 10 soundtrack.

1123
00:57:55.380 --> 00:57:57.179
And totally independently.

1124
00:57:57.239 --> 00:57:59.219
Nathan and I have come up with 2 different theories from this

1125
00:57:59.219 --> 00:58:00.900
episode as to why it hasn't been released yet.

1126
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:01.800
So Nathan, you go first.

1127
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:03.659
I think Murray's phoning it in this year.

1128
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:04.260
Right.

1129
00:58:04.500 --> 00:58:10.019
There's a lot of use of just the doctor's theme in a way where

1130
00:58:10.019 --> 00:58:12.780
it's just like, okay, it's time in the episode for the doctor's

1131
00:58:12.780 --> 00:58:14.460
theme and he just puts it in.

1132
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:18.420
I did think here there was a pretty good version of the galafray

1133
00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:23.400
theme that was very stately and fitted with the atmosphere and

1134
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:27.900
with Capaldi, you know, which it's a shame that we're not going to

1135
00:58:27.900 --> 00:58:30.239
be able to hear that without the dialogue in front of it.

1136
00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:35.039
But just generally, like sometimes I think I got it a bit in

1137
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:39.420
series 3 as well, where he does tend to use the same music cues

1138
00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:43.619
over and over again and there was some good stuff here, but on the

1139
00:58:43.619 --> 00:58:46.679
whole, I haven't been wowed by the music this season at all.

1140
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:48.480
What's your theory?

1141
00:58:48.539 --> 00:58:52.199
Well, I have to thank Rod for this.

1142
00:58:52.260 --> 00:58:54.719
We watched this episode together because he loves Bill, so he's

1143
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:55.920
been rewatching these ones with me.

1144
00:58:55.980 --> 00:59:01.199
And um, halfway through that scene where the doctor's waking up

1145
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:03.900
having shocked himself and his vision's coming back and what have

1146
00:59:03.900 --> 00:59:04.079
you.

1147
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:08.340
Rod was just like, we have to come back to this bit.

1148
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:09.599
And I paused.

1149
00:59:09.659 --> 00:59:10.739
He's like, no, no, not now.

1150
00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:11.880
We finish watching the episode.

1151
00:59:11.940 --> 00:59:15.840
And then finished watching the episode and we rewound to it.

1152
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:18.000
And we played it through a few more times.

1153
00:59:18.059 --> 00:59:21.059
And then he got YouTube up and he looked up a song called Once

1154
00:59:21.059 --> 00:59:23.280
Upon a Time by Donna Summer.

1155
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:27.840
And the music that is playing in the background as the doctor

1156
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:31.920
recovers his site bears a startling similarity to the opening bars

1157
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:33.539
of Once Upon a Time by Donna Summer.

1158
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:34.019
Wow.

1159
00:59:34.019 --> 00:59:38.039
And it's, um, it's also got an album title from it.

1160
00:59:38.039 --> 00:59:41.820
And it's sort of Donna Summer's retelling of Cinderella.

1161
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:44.400
But with a self-aware Cinderella.

1162
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:48.599
And the lyrics from Once upon a Time, start with Once upon a Time

1163
00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:52.500
there was a girl who lived in a land of dreams unreal, hiding from

1164
00:59:52.500 --> 00:59:56.219
reality, treated like a stranger, living in her fantasies trapped

1165
00:59:56.219 --> 00:59:56.880
within their world.

1166
00:59:58.380 --> 01:00:03.480
And now Rod had no idea of the whole season 10 soundtrack has been

1167
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:06.900
released thing, but I'm just thinking, okay, if Murray has used

1168
01:00:06.900 --> 01:00:13.679
that refrain, without, say, the release permissions or thought

1169
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:17.940
okay, you know, and music copyright is very complicated.

1170
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.219
So I'm not suggesting Murray has knowingly done anything wrong.

1171
01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:25.199
But I'm just wondering if that might be the reason we haven't had

1172
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:25.619
the soundtrack.

1173
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:27.539
But then I think you can just take that track off.

1174
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:33.599
But it's very interesting that a song that refers to fake worlds

1175
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:37.920
and illusions and becoming aware of them may have been referenced

1176
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:38.699
in this soundtrack.

1177
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:39.900
Oh, I like it.

1178
01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:41.760
I reckon Dan Brown could write a story about it.

1179
01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:45.539
It's got that sort of conspiracy theory edge to it. like it.

1180
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:48.360
Well, see, some of the chord progressions made me think that maybe

1181
01:00:48.360 --> 01:00:54.960
the music from Andor had fallen into some kind of time tunnel and

1182
01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:58.739
gone back in time to 2017 for this episode as well.

1183
01:00:59.699 --> 01:01:01.260
Who knows?

1184
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:04.500
I hadn't noticed it too much, except I noticed there's sort of a

1185
01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:08.519
sort of fewer instruments in the score, it seems to me.

1186
01:01:08.579 --> 01:01:11.940
And maybe maybe there were some budgetary pressures as well too.

1187
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:12.780
I don't know.

1188
01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:39.539
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1189
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:43.320
We'll be back next week to find a way to fill that monk shaped

1190
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:46.980
hole in our hearts in the pyramid at the end of the world.

1191
01:01:47.280 --> 01:01:51.119
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1192
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:54.719
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1193
01:01:53.340 --> 01:01:57.780
com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to

1194
01:01:57.780 --> 01:02:01.920
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1195
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.820
500-year diary, and the 2nd grace and bountiful human empire.

1196
01:02:06.179 --> 01:02:10.500
Until next time, computer, end program.

1197
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:13.800
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1198
01:02:13.860 --> 01:02:14.699
Good night.

1199
01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:15.539
Good seeing you.

1200
01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:16.199
See you later.

1201
01:02:22.260 --> 01:02:24.900
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

1202
01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:27.059
Stephen B, Brenda Jones, and Johnny Spandral.

1203
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:29.280
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1204
01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:32.940
This episode, honour the invisible, was recorded on the 1st of

1205
01:02:32.940 --> 01:02:36.119
September 2024 and released on the 20th of October.

1206
01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:41.699
Stay tuned for FDE publications, upcoming unauthorised da Vinci

1207
01:02:41.699 --> 01:02:45.360
code sequel, in which renowned symbologist Robert Langdon

1208
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:50.099
investigates the BBC archives only to discover with mounting

1209
01:02:50.099 --> 01:02:54.000
horror that none of the part threes in the classic series are

1210
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:54.840
canon.

1211
01:02:58.380 --> 01:03:00.719
Um, I'm gonna put him out.

1212
01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:03.239
Have we, I think we've got an out.

1213
01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:06.300
Well, there's just the stuff we need, we wanted to talk about the

1214
01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:08.880
soundtrack, why you think it hasn't been released and why I think

1215
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:09.420
it has been.

1216
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:09.780
Okay.

1217
01:03:09.780 --> 01:03:10.199
Yeah.

1218
01:03:10.260 --> 01:03:11.400
Can I feel the inside?

1219
01:03:11.519 --> 01:03:12.480
Just let me, I just need to.

1220
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:14.940
I need to wee and I need to get rid of him. obviously.

1221
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.099
I was going to say one more thing about pace.

1222
01:03:17.219 --> 01:03:18.119
Okay, cool.

1223
01:03:18.179 --> 01:03:22.559
Yeah, we'll do that when Nathan gets back and, you know, fittingly

1224
01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:24.000
for something about pace, it won't take very long.

1225
01:03:24.059 --> 01:03:28.380
I've got something pretty inconsequential, but like there's that

1226
01:03:28.380 --> 01:03:31.260
moment where the monk wants information.

1227
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.380
It's just like the village in the prisoner wanting information

1228
01:03:34.380 --> 01:03:35.400
from number six.

1229
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:37.260
And he rebels in the same way.

1230
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:40.380
You know, he just, I love that sort of triumph of the individual

1231
01:03:40.380 --> 01:03:41.219
through free will.

1232
01:03:41.340 --> 01:03:43.500
And yeah, I just sort of thought, oh, that's the prisoner.

1233
01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:46.920
We've been watching the 1980 Astro boy.

1234
01:03:46.980 --> 01:03:52.139
And there was an episode we watched the other day where this

1235
01:03:52.139 --> 01:03:56.280
person has a secret compound and he's stolen the plans for the

1236
01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:59.639
robot before Astro Boy and built one.

1237
01:03:59.699 --> 01:04:03.239
So it's like enclosed and she's a prisoner and what have you.

1238
01:04:03.300 --> 01:04:07.800
And his observation thing is like the seesaw, brilliant

1239
01:04:07.800 --> 01:04:10.199
observation in a dome from the prisoner.

1240
01:04:11.039 --> 01:04:18.059
And like, you know, Jerry Anderson and and 1960s, um, British

1241
01:04:18.059 --> 01:04:21.179
psychedelia were very popular in Japan in the 70s.

1242
01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:22.079
That's interesting.

1243
01:04:22.079 --> 01:04:26.579
Like, there's a Japanese anime series called Thunderbirds 2086.

1244
01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:28.500
It's officially licensed.

1245
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:32.159
It is meant to be set 20 years after Thunderbirds.

1246
01:04:32.219 --> 01:04:34.920
It doesn't reference anything from the original Thunderbirds, but

1247
01:04:34.920 --> 01:04:38.039
it wasn't officially like, you know, Thunderbirds copyright, Jerry

1248
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:41.820
and Sylvia Anderson, um, is under the title, so...

1249
01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:43.079
Yeah, yeah.

1250
01:04:43.380 --> 01:04:47.940
Yeah, sort of, if you imagine like Robotech, but without the

1251
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:50.760
intricate plotting kind of thing, it's that kind of art style.

1252
01:04:50.820 --> 01:04:53.820
That's incredible Yeah, I'm sure all this will be cut.

1253
01:04:55.260 --> 01:04:58.860
No, I hope that was funny because that's almost certainly the tag.