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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:22:31

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast that was even here to welcome the First

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Man on the Moon.

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Or I was anyway.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm James.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, the monks are here for their 3rd episode in a row, and this

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week it's with their customary blend of hardcore exposition and

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theocratic fascism.

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We'll see how that works out as we discuss the lie of the land.

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So, I'm even more convinced by this episode that the monks are

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scary religious leaders.

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It's not an accident that they're called the monks, and it's not

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an accident that they first appear in an episode with the Catholic

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Church.

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We have Bill wearing a skirt at the beginning of this episode.

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Am I right?

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Did you notice that?

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I just saw all the 1984 style overall.

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Yes, yeah.

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Certainly the dark colours thing, like the muted colours thing.

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There are often religious restrictions about what kind of clothing

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you're allowed to wear and Christianity even has some stuff in the

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New Testament about not wearing flashy clothing or baubles or

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anything like that, not decorating yourself too much, and you

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think about things like, you know, the Amish and so on.

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And so what we have is a group of people who've arrived on earth

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in the middle of a catastrophe in which you're all going to be

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destroyed and they decide if you love and obey them.

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They are going to save you and look after you for the rest of

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time.

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And they do that by telling various lies about history and the way

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things actually happen in the past.

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And so it does seem very, very much like Moffatt has still not

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finished with his stuff about the Anglican Marines.

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And this is another version of that.

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It's another kind of thing about religion.

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Yes, though, I mean, the concept of the monks was actually devised

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by Harness for the middle episode and that it was expanded into a

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trilogy.

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Expanded in both directions.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So like he came up with the concept for what became Pyramid at the

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end of the world.

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I think it was originally called Alien Invasion number 122.

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Right.

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Not pyramid and made up a stand.

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And then Moffat went, oh, this is a good idea.

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Let's expand the concept and I think it works really well as a

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trilogy.

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Yeah I do too.

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I think it works.

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I think it's fine.

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Look, I had a bit of a todd experience here.

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I enjoyed it more than I did when it was 1st on and I haven't seen

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them since.

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I don't think they're brilliant.

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I think they're fine.

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They're interesting, they're cool.

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They've got some good bits.

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The monks are well realised.

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They're a bit gross, you know, it's not to like. what you want.

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That's what you want. what you want.

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And it's got a certain I can't remember when did the television

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series of Handmaid's Tales start because even though there's none

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of the handmade type bit in it, there is something about, as you

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were saying, like with the colours and everything being drab and

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sort of depressing, which is reminiscent of that series as well.

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Yeah, I think it's, you know, putting that kind of theocracy into

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the modern day world.

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So having people like us, but they're living under this sort of

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terrifying theocracy.

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And I think that the Handmaid's Tale obviously does that, and this

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does that as well.

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Handmaid's Tale premieres in April 2017.

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Okay.

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Before, I mean, just slightly before.

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Yeah, literally, literally, the production couple of months.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Production wise, it had started about a year before that.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's in the air and Doctor Who has always slightly done

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that.

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Russell is sort of fairly suspicious of religion, but doesn't make

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a big thing of it.

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No, but I think in any science fiction fantasy type program.

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Religion's not going to sit well because as soon as you have races

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from all over the universe and all over time, the idea of a deity

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starts to become a bit inconsistent with all that.

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And I think that I think that religion can only ever be seen as a

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bit old-fashioned or silly or made up, basically.

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Yeah, I think the best treatment of any Doctor Who is in the rebus

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operation where, you know, you have Binro, the heretic and the

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doctor saying, no, you're kind of free thinking is all correct, and

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there are no gods, no eyes gods, no fire gods, in an episode that

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introduces the black and white guardians.

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That's true.

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Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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So it's always sort of a fun thing to do.

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But as far as the politics of religion are concerned.

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You know, Moffat, I think, is much more interested in that.

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Well, the politics of the religion.

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Yeah, yeah, certainly.

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I think one thing that Doctor Who does do in terms of religion is

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that it almost universally comes down on the side of faith, whether

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that be religious or something else. like even going back to

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Hartnell.

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Hartnell's doctor often talks about how he dreams the universe can

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be, and you know, our destiny is in the stars.

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And Binro is presented as having faith in science.

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And even Leila talks about, you know, science, science and

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rationality, having faith in it over religion.

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And here, the characters are attempting to have faith in what they

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know to be true compared to what they've been told is the truth.

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And especially under Moffat, as you say, Nathan.

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I think that's why the stories that deal with religion never come

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across as sort of attacking religion with a big stick, but it's

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more saying, let's talk about religion and let's talk about what

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appeals to humans with it, let's talk about how it can be used

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beneficially, and how it can be misused.

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And I just think that's a really interesting way to do it that

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provides a great backdrop to this and arguably extremists a couple

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of weeks ago as well.

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Yes, it's that it's better to believe in science, says Lena.

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But it's interesting, though, that religion, as there are sort of

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2 ways one can sort of view religion and one is to be actually

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religious and sort of actually believe it all.

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The other is religion is culture.

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Religion is cultural backdrop, and I think that's where I actually

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think that's where religion can actually be most beneficial.

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It's the kind of the cultural trimmings that help add to the

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flavour of particular nations and particular societies.

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And I think that's what you do see in Doctor Who throughout the

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time is religion as a cultural phenomenon rather than an actual

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belief system per se.

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It's like that, yes, prime minister thing about, you know, we have

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to divide the bishops between those who believe in God and those

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who don't.

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You know, it's the bells and smells.

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And I think I think it's that thing that we all always witnesses

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when people do take the religion too seriously.

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That's when things go horribly wrong, whether it's in the United

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States or, you know, Iran or wherever.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And certainly that's what we have here, isn't it?

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We have a very definite theocracy.

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We have statues on every corner.

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We have people in robes. who say that they care for us who want to

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be loved.

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And of course, we have that opening sequence where we have that

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film, which is beautifully narrated. showing us how the monks have

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been there all throughout our history and we into cars.

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Yeah, we intercut with the memory police coming to that house and

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taking the mother away.

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But it's brilliant how the mother says, no, they've actually

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haven't been here for, they've only been here for a few months.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And I think that that's great.

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It's obviously, so some people are, the conditioning process

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doesn't always work.

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And I think it's really good because we don't quite know because I

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think we're blindsided at the end of the last episode.

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I don't think we expect the monks to win.

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At the end of Pyramid at the end of the world, the doctor really

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kind of defeats them, doesn't he?

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You know, he prevents their catastrophe from happening, and then

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it's just Bill suddenly at the last minute, prolongs it and turns

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it into a trilogy sort of unexpectedly in a way that we didn't

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expect.

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And so when we come back and we see this film, we don't quite know

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what the status quo is going to be or how far forward in time

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we've jumped or anything.

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And so having something that seems obviously weird and wrong in

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the film and then having us see someone who is in the fiction of

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the show denying it, I think actually works really well.

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I think the big problem with this episode is that it is absolutely

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full of exposition and starting it with a film explaining the

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story. so far.

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Like I think that that works, but it does become a feature of the

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episode in a way that I think makes it a little bit irritating.

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There's a much more interesting story there if the story was just

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this story. was just the lie of the land.

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And, you know, the doctor and maybe the doctor and Bill arrive

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back to earth having been somewhere and the monks are here. always

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been here.

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Everything's changed and we kind of then find out how it's all

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happened and it was told that way.

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This is a trilogy.

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This is not a three-part story.

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It is a trilogy.

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It is an episode followed by an episode followed by an episode

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which obviously they do all interrelate, but there is a gap of

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time between each one.

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They're in different settings, really.

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They're in different, completely different time spaces.

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Like there's months between the 2nd and 3rd one, for instance, I

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would have loved to have seen that more traditionally told

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version.

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Yeah, although.

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I have to say, and I think we said this last week as well, that

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this does serialisation pretty well.

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So you get the 3 parts, 3 little vignettes from an alien invasion

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so they're being the preparation.

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They arrival and then the final defeat.

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So like the Android invasion.

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Well, yes, yeah, exactly.

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Like episodes one to 3 of the Android Invasion.

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I said last week.

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Yeah, right, okay.

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The monks are borrowing from the kraal.

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Yes, exactly. taking the concept a little further.

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He also does that thing that Moffatt often does with multipart

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stories where the pickup from the week before. is a complete

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shift.

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Yes, it's a shift.

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Which is the right move, I think.

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You wouldn't want it just to be one continuous...

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It wouldn't work so well as an omnibus.

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No.

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Yeah, although that's not what you said.

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Oh, no, no, actually.

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Did I say that it should be an omnibus or did I say?

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No, no, you said you watched it as an omnibus.

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I watched it as an omnibus and watching it back to back.

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It helped together much more consistently.

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Okay, interesting.

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The point I was trying to make last week was as a trilogy.

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It holds together better watched in close proximity.

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Interesting.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think, you know, week by week it works quite well.

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And I do think that not knowing going in how many episodes it is

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works very well too, for the surprise ending of the pyramid at the

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end of the world.

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What's missing for me to make it work properly is anything

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approaching an epic is to have a couple of characters that run

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through most of it.

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You've just got the regulars.

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And the monks, but the monks aren't characters.

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Well, in fact, that's a problem here.

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What we have is the woman, you know, the mother in that scene, the

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woman from the memory police, Richard, who's really hot on board

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the ship.

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On board the ship.

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And the papers.

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Yeah, and then another guy...

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Oh, Alan.

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Alan.

253
00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.139
And that's really all this doesn't have a big guest cast.

254
00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.059
And so it does feel like.

255
00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.720
You could fit all of their dialogue on one A for page. for the

256
00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:22.139
entire thing.

257
00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:25.320
That's okay because the rest of the dialogue is Capaldi.

258
00:12:25.379 --> 00:12:26.399
Exactly.

259
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.980
I have 3 words on that topic.

260
00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.080
Where is Erica?

261
00:12:31.139 --> 00:12:31.980
Yes.

262
00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:35.039
Was she the woman in the 2nd episode?

263
00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:36.000
Yes, the scientist.

264
00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:36.960
Yes, yes.

265
00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:37.559
She fabulous.

266
00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:39.120
Yes, she was...

267
00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:39.659
Go pick her up.

268
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.000
What are you doing after a week?

269
00:12:42.059 --> 00:12:45.059
Apparently being put under the fascist jackboot without the

270
00:12:45.059 --> 00:12:45.299
doctor.

271
00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:45.899
Okay.

272
00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.539
I had forgotten about that for the rest of time.

273
00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:02.399
What we have after that scene is we have the framing device, or

274
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.820
not quite a framing device, but a kind of thematic thing, where

275
00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:07.919
Bill is talking to her mother.

276
00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:11.279
And so we have the scene of her in the flat and she makes the

277
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:15.059
mother a cup of coffee and then she sits opposite her and then we

278
00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:19.200
see her and she's giving exposition.

279
00:13:19.259 --> 00:13:21.720
She's kind of filling her mother in on what's happened in the last

280
00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:22.679
6 months.

281
00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:25.320
And I think all of that's fine.

282
00:13:25.379 --> 00:13:30.360
And then Nardal arrives, but she keeps doing it for the rest of

283
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:34.860
the episode in a way that feels like they're not confident that

284
00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:38.340
they can tell the story because she's no, yeah, they're worried

285
00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:39.419
that it didn't quite make sense.

286
00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:40.080
It doesn't land.

287
00:13:40.139 --> 00:13:43.679
So she's not talking to her mother about how she feels or anything

288
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:44.039
like that.

289
00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:48.000
She's talking to her mother about what the plot things are.

290
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.320
Yes, exactly.

291
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:49.740
Right, right.

292
00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:51.840
And mother should be saying, I mean, I know a mother is imaginary

293
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.000
at this point, but like, you know, it's like her mother should be

294
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.559
saying, yes, yes, I know all this, dear.

295
00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:57.840
I've been living through it as well Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

296
00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:58.019
exactly.

297
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:00.419
As you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

298
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:01.860
Yeah, yeah.

299
00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.279
And and so all of the stuff about, you know, we've got this guy

300
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:10.200
and his kid has been sentenced to hard labour and he's letting us

301
00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.480
on the boat and then we're going to go on the boat and then we're

302
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.820
going to give our papers and all of that sort of thing, is all

303
00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:18.299
laboriously explained for us, even though we're watching it happen

304
00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:20.639
on television in front of us.

305
00:14:20.700 --> 00:14:25.139
And I think that that's a weakness, that that's something that

306
00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:26.279
should have been attended to.

307
00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:31.799
And they just about get away with it because, you know, we start

308
00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:35.220
with the mother, the resolution involves the mother, we need to be

309
00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:38.279
reminded of her perhaps all the way through, but I just think it's

310
00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:38.700
a problem.

311
00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:39.480
Possibly too.

312
00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:41.519
Remind me, was there narration towards the end as well?

313
00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:42.840
It keeps going.

314
00:14:42.899 --> 00:14:43.740
It keeps going.

315
00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.200
Well, no, I was wondering whether then maybe the narration's added

316
00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:47.159
in the middle section.

317
00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:49.440
Maybe it's because they were worried it wasn't going to make any

318
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:51.779
sense, but maybe they were also worried that it'd be a bit weird

319
00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:54.059
to have narration here and then a gap and then no narration

320
00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:56.519
because if you if you fall out of the habit of listening to

321
00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:57.360
hearing the narration.

322
00:14:57.419 --> 00:14:58.620
It's a shock when it comes back.

323
00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:00.299
Oh, my God, that's right. were having this.

324
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.539
I wonder from what you were saying, James and Brendan before about

325
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:06.419
the fact that, you know, the monks are in the original middle

326
00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:09.419
episode and then it's they kind of expanded to create this

327
00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:11.039
trilogy.

328
00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:15.659
I wonder whether the grafting together of this just needed another

329
00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:19.080
couple of drafts to get it sorted. completely.

330
00:15:19.139 --> 00:15:21.179
I mean, it's fine, but it could be better, as you're saying.

331
00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.700
So, yeah, so we touched on this last week.

332
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:26.940
This is at the time when Stephen Moffatt's mother is dying in

333
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:27.539
hospital.

334
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:33.419
And so he was often redrafting and rewriting episodes by her

335
00:15:33.419 --> 00:15:33.840
bedside.

336
00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:37.980
Yeah, and I mean, Widhouse is not bad, and he has written some

337
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:41.100
good episodes, and certainly things like Vampires of Venice and

338
00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:41.519
stuff like that.

339
00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:43.139
Like he can do a thing.

340
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.740
And he has run his own show at this point being human.

341
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.639
So, you know, he's an accomplished writer, but I do think he is

342
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.179
perhaps more limited than Moffat or Harness.

343
00:15:54.299 --> 00:16:00.179
So he is relying, I think, too heavily on the voiceover.

344
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.299
And I always think the voiceover is the thing that you cut in the

345
00:16:03.299 --> 00:16:07.200
next draft, you know, like it's a very rightly thing and it's just

346
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:08.220
like, this is TV.

347
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:09.600
You could just show us this stuff.

348
00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:14.159
Yeah, they have voiceovers can be critiqued as lazy writing.

349
00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:15.419
By some.

350
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:17.399
I don't necessarily agree with that because I think there are

351
00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:19.259
occasions where they work, but I think they just need to be done

352
00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:20.159
properly.

353
00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:24.000
And I think here it wreaks of how we're going to make this make

354
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:24.360
sense.

355
00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:25.860
We'll just put in a voiceover.

356
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.159
Yeah, I think that that's the problem because I think that you

357
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.940
could be confident that from that opening, which is itself very

358
00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:36.360
exposition-y and is very the story so far, here's what's happened

359
00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:37.500
over the last 6 months.

360
00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:39.120
I think we'd get it.

361
00:16:39.179 --> 00:16:42.539
Like, I don't think we need a lot more explanation.

362
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.320
And so I'm not sure what's added by the voiceover.

363
00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:49.379
There's a reluctance, I think, in genre fiction, sometimes to just

364
00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:51.899
trust your audience to make sense of things.

365
00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:55.919
And there are some members of the audience who get cross if it's

366
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:57.659
not all spelled out for them.

367
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.240
And I think that that's a problem here.

368
00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:04.500
I think the trick is there's a happy medium point, median point

369
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:05.339
there.

370
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.519
And that is, it's okay if not everyone's understanding what's

371
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.279
going on, but those people have to be enjoying it on a different

372
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.920
level because there's stuff happening.

373
00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:16.200
Oh, this is exciting or they really like that actual, that's a

374
00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:17.700
cool location. a fantastic effect.

375
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:19.500
And so they're enjoying it anyway.

376
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.140
It's like, oh, I'm quite, no, it's going on, but isn't it great?

377
00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:24.299
Yeah, not as pretty and there's a lot happening.

378
00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:25.259
Exactly. something like that.

379
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.460
Before we move off the arriving on the ship.

380
00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:35.700
Was anyone having goodies vibes that the doctor was broadcasting

381
00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:39.960
from his pirate radio show outside the fire, outside the 5 mile

382
00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:40.259
limit?

383
00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:43.380
And now, a walk...

384
00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:45.299
Up to the mid of town...

385
00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:46.680
A walk, black, black forest.

386
00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:53.220
My favourite bit of those seasons is when they're coming back on

387
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:53.940
the ship.

388
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.720
Like full speed smashing into the wharf.

389
00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:01.799
And Capaldi is there at the at the prowl.

390
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:07.619
Just laughing his head off with joy that he's, you know, he's

391
00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:09.660
coming back and he's going to defeat the earlier.

392
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:13.680
It makes up for that smile, that horrific smile that leading into

393
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.339
the opening credits at the end of the film where he...

394
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:18.059
It's so cool.

395
00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:19.440
It's so good.

396
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:23.640
Isn't there like Clara tells him... no, no, no, not the smile.

397
00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:25.140
I'll tell you when you can smile.

398
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:30.119
Yeah, there's some line about how kind of horrifying Capaldi's

399
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:30.539
smart.

400
00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:34.980
And we've seen a lot more genuine smiles from Capaldi since Bill

401
00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:40.019
came along, which, you know, of course, but that creepy smile at

402
00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:41.819
going into the credits is pretty wonderful.

403
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.259
So the episode is also very straightforward.

404
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:51.359
Like I just don't think it needs all of that scaffolding because

405
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.119
it's basically, we've had 6 months.

406
00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:55.799
Nadol finds Bill.

407
00:18:55.859 --> 00:18:59.220
They have a plan, they go off to find the doctor on the boat, they

408
00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:02.400
meet the doctor, they join with him, and then they all go into the

409
00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.740
pyramid, and they defeat the monks.

410
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:09.359
I mean, it is very, very linear and very straightforward and much

411
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.019
less complicated than either of the 2 previous stories.

412
00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:17.160
I'm just not quite sure why we can't be trusted to work out what's

413
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:18.240
going on for ourselves.

414
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:23.220
I sort of missed in this whole trilogy, what's in it for the

415
00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:23.700
monks?

416
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:26.220
What are they getting out of controlling the oath?

417
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:27.480
is it just, is it just the power?

418
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:29.099
Is it just the control?

419
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:30.839
I think there's something missing there?

420
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.180
to explain why they do what they do.

421
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.019
You know, is it because they get some sort of sustenance from the

422
00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:37.440
worship?

423
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.539
Yeah, that's missing.

424
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:41.880
I mean, they're not mining the core of the planet or anything.

425
00:19:41.940 --> 00:19:46.680
So, you know, it needs to be, yeah, the adulation or the adoration

426
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:50.519
is obviously feeding them somehow, but I think that's a concept

427
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:51.539
that might have been lost.

428
00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:54.000
That is kind of interesting, isn't it?

429
00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:57.240
Like watching it this time through, they speak more often than I

430
00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:58.440
remember them speaking.

431
00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:02.160
So we do hear from them, but we don't hear from them very often.

432
00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:05.819
Like, maybe that's okay.

433
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:10.140
Like maybe, maybe not having them talk about their plans for

434
00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:10.980
victory and stuff.

435
00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:13.799
We've had plenty of back.

436
00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:15.660
We can go back and watch...

437
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.660
No, no, but no, but you don't need the monks to say that you just

438
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:22.079
need that moment as they're, you know, running through corridors.

439
00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:24.960
You have, you know, but why are the monks even here, says Bill.

440
00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:26.880
He says, it's because they're feeding on blah, blah, blah.

441
00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:28.319
You know, it says they need us for such and this.

442
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:29.640
And it only needs to be like 15 seconds.

443
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:30.180
Yeah.

444
00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:33.299
Or Nardol says it or something, you know.

445
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.119
Yeah, I think there's a point to me, mate, that there's a line

446
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:39.359
towards the end of the episode and they actually make it more

447
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.579
prominent in editing.

448
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.660
Originally they were, like when they go to invade the pyramid to

449
00:20:45.660 --> 00:20:49.019
defeat the monks, they were monks on guard who were going to be

450
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:53.400
snipered by, I want to say Richard.

451
00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:55.859
No, or Alan.

452
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.740
One of the one with the hot one.

453
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.619
And they filmed that shot.

454
00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:05.640
And then they cut it in editing and included some dialogue from

455
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.599
Nardol saying, you know, the whole the whole bit where...

456
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.220
The Tavarian neck pinch bit.

457
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.059
Well, no, no, we're not all looks at the pyramid and there's some

458
00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:17.039
sort of perception filter that makes him see...

459
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:18.299
See, there's lots and guarded.

460
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:21.599
And then the doctor's like, no, no, look again.

461
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:25.920
And then there's there's no months because they are tricking us

462
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.160
even to that point that there are many fewer months.

463
00:21:29.460 --> 00:21:31.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah. on the planet.

464
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:33.240
The invasion force was quite small.

465
00:21:33.299 --> 00:21:35.819
But it is actually a great meta reference to Doctor Who generally

466
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:37.680
you know, isn't the place a bit large for just 6 of you.

467
00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:38.519
You know, yeah, yeah.

468
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:41.400
It's that thing of like there's only ever 4 costumes.

469
00:21:41.819 --> 00:21:46.259
And there's that, that these, this is a like a dying race or a

470
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:48.359
race that there aren't that many of them.

471
00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:53.579
And so the reason why they have to use all this subterfusion

472
00:21:53.579 --> 00:21:58.680
deception and mind control is because there's only 12 of them on

473
00:21:58.680 --> 00:21:59.160
the planet.

474
00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:01.500
Maybe that's missed a bit.

475
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.240
Like, why couldn't they explain that a bit better?

476
00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:08.220
But, yeah, like you have a throwaway line that, oh, there aren't

477
00:22:08.220 --> 00:22:08.819
that many of them.

478
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.799
This is why they're doing this.

479
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.839
And then it's basically over.

480
00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:16.980
I mean, I kind of think that it's okay to leave the space open for

481
00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:18.839
us to have that conversation, though.

482
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.900
I think, like, I think there is something undercooked about the

483
00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:26.099
monks generally, and I think in some respects, I think it's

484
00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:28.740
because they fail to properly commit to the idea that they're just

485
00:22:28.740 --> 00:22:33.779
weird maniac religious leaders and who knows why they do what they

486
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:34.140
do.

487
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.240
But it is a problem.

488
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:39.960
And because we hear from them so infrequently, we don't get much

489
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:40.619
sense of them.

490
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.500
They're certainly not the silence or the weeping angels, aren't

491
00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:43.680
they?

492
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:47.880
And that seems to be the kind of what we're going for with them.

493
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:55.019
So, many years ago, in the year of broadcast, in fact, I wrote 3

494
00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:59.940
essays for each of these 3 episodes for the fanzine celestial toy

495
00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:00.240
room.

496
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.960
And I was reading over my live, the land entry, because this is

497
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:05.940
the one I was the most critical of at the time.

498
00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:09.599
And what I've written about the monks' motivations is the monks

499
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.880
influence the world using telepathic suggestion.

500
00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:14.460
How many Doctor Who villains have used this type of method?

501
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:18.539
Well, there's the master, Rassalon, the master, every 2nd monster

502
00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:22.259
of the Hinchcliffe era, the master, the Sicorax, the Daleks, the

503
00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:25.079
Silence, and, in case you've forgotten, the master.

504
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:30.059
So I kind of come away going, not only do we not know what they

505
00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:34.079
really want, their methods are just something we've seen time and

506
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:34.799
time again before.

507
00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:40.619
And it's like, why even have this dystopian 1984 world that you

508
00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:43.200
know is going to lead to resistance because you've conquered so

509
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:43.859
many planets?

510
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.759
Why not go?

511
00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:46.799
I'm going to give everyone flying cars and a puppy.

512
00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:51.240
It's like, what I love about the point that you've just made there

513
00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:54.660
is that integral to this plot is that the master tells them how to

514
00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:57.539
defeat how to defeat the aliens.

515
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:01.920
We'll get onto the master in a second, but I do want to say that I

516
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.400
think that the idea that they're creating an alternative history

517
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:10.140
where they're responsible for all of human progress, where they've

518
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:14.400
shepherded us and all of that sort of thing, like is a feature of

519
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.660
religion to this day.

520
00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:17.640
Do you know what I mean?

521
00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:21.720
Like, there's a way of looking at human progress where essentially

522
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.319
it's been telling religious people to just shut up for a minute

523
00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.660
while we get on with making our lives better.

524
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:31.859
But the alternative narrative, which is that, you know, religion

525
00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:37.500
is the source of kind of every human virtue and that it's a result

526
00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:40.740
of religion that we are able to live such full, rich and happy

527
00:24:40.740 --> 00:24:41.400
lives now.

528
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:46.380
And I do think that those competing versions of history are kind

529
00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:51.000
of a unique feature of the monks, I think.

530
00:24:51.059 --> 00:24:55.079
Like that's why they're controlling us in order to sell that

531
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:55.799
version of history.

532
00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:01.380
The actual inspiration for this story was the 2016 presidential

533
00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:03.960
election and all of the banging.

534
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:04.680
Fake New Central.

535
00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:09.059
Yes, fake essential. clearly a clear reference over the top.

536
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.279
This is a reaction against that.

537
00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:18.240
It's documented in DWM and maybe in the complete history as well

538
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.279
reacted to all of the...

539
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:26.460
Brennan's just holding up his copy of the complete history

540
00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:27.839
volume...

541
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:28.619
88?

542
00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:33.059
And grinning like Peter Capaldi on a ship about to crash into a

543
00:25:33.059 --> 00:25:35.880
wharf and kill those 2 blokes because they can't run that fast.

544
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:43.140
And, you know, I think the sort of clumsy sort of statement at the

545
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:45.000
end does that a disservice.

546
00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:51.420
Like there's something to say there about denial of reality and

547
00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:53.099
denial of facts.

548
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:55.559
So it would have been better if we didn't focus a little more on

549
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:55.980
that, rather.

550
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.059
Yeah.

551
00:25:57.059 --> 00:25:58.619
And we touched on this last week.

552
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:02.279
Originally, those 3 military leaders were supposed to be the

553
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:03.539
actual leaders of the country.

554
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:09.359
And one of them was a Trump analogue, but for BBC, poo-pooh, that

555
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:12.240
idea, because it was probably a little too political.

556
00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:13.140
Yeah, yeah.

557
00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:21.839
So I think perhaps we've talked about the weaknesses of the

558
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.019
episode, but I do think that there is a scene which is actively

559
00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:30.480
unpleasant to watch, which I think was a bad miscalculation, and

560
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:36.299
that is the scene where the doctor and Bill finally meet on board

561
00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:42.839
the ship, and where he provokes her into shooting him, and even

562
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.680
does a bit of a regeneration, just for the sake of last week's

563
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.099
next Time trailer, something that she can't possibly have

564
00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:50.519
understood.

565
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:51.599
Exactly.

566
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.900
She doesn't know what a regeneration is at this point.

567
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.940
Although Nardol seems to know.

568
00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:03.599
But I think, you know, part of the problem with doing this now is

569
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.660
that the acting styles have changed so much.

570
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.980
And so when the doctor destroys Ace's faith in him in Curse of

571
00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:16.259
Fenrig, not for a moment does Sophie Aldred's performance make you

572
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:19.440
think that someone is really suffering a great deal of anguish.

573
00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:21.779
Maybe that's Sophie Altra.

574
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.700
That's not kind.

575
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:25.559
She speaks very highly of you.

576
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:29.880
But now, you know, like part of the thing, I think part of the

577
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.660
problem, for instance, in case of Andrazan is that the performance

578
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:36.180
that Nicola gives is too realistic.

579
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.460
So, you know, her reaction.

580
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.839
There's one moment where Pete puts his hand on her to reassure her

581
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:46.619
but she's so freaked out and so kind of physically invaded by

582
00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:50.700
Sharon's check, that she reacts in what is just kind of a little

583
00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:51.599
bit too realistic.

584
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:54.299
Well, I mean, we'll have to agree to differ on whether that's a

585
00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:54.900
problem or not.

586
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:59.039
But yes, I think it's a bad idea, probably for the companion to

587
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.720
shoot the doctor, probably.

588
00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:03.839
But I don't know, that's maybe I have no moral centre because I

589
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:05.880
don't really think that that is a huge issue.

590
00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:08.460
I just hated it. the drama, Nathan.

591
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:09.359
Yes, the drama.

592
00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:12.240
But I just found it really actively unpleasant to watch.

593
00:28:12.299 --> 00:28:15.420
Like her distress over a long...

594
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:16.500
Yeah, look, it's not the 1st time.

595
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:20.460
It's not the 1st time in 60 years that the doctor has appeared to

596
00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:21.359
have changed sides.

597
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:23.400
I mean, you use cursor Fenrik as an example there.

598
00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:25.859
A recent thing I was watching was the war games.

599
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.380
You know, there are all sorts of instances where the doctor

600
00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:28.920
looked...

601
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:30.720
Invasion of time. time, for example.

602
00:28:30.779 --> 00:28:36.180
And no one for a millisecond believes, no one believes that he's

603
00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:36.720
actually turned.

604
00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:41.460
And maybe it would have worked better if it had hung more on faith

605
00:28:41.460 --> 00:28:46.259
her faith in him, him having to break her faith to try and break

606
00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:49.799
any condition that she might have from the monks.

607
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.960
You know what I mean?

608
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:55.200
Like, because it just seems like he's being cruel to her, to try

609
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:57.359
and provoke her, to shoot him.

610
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.660
And if it had been more closer to what they did in cursor

611
00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:01.140
Fenrick.

612
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:05.940
I mean, the dialogue says that he is trying to make sure that she

613
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:08.700
isn't conditioned. that everyone's conditioned.

614
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:10.740
He's got to make sure that she isn't conditioned.

615
00:29:10.740 --> 00:29:12.000
And like, like whatever.

616
00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:13.019
Do you know what I mean?

617
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:13.799
Like, that's fine.

618
00:29:13.859 --> 00:29:16.200
But you could have made that decision.

619
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:18.779
Like the scriptwriters could have made that decision a bit

620
00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:19.079
earlier.

621
00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:23.460
Like her shooting, the doctor is just absolute fake drama.

622
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.180
Although extra points for David, who's forgotten to exchange his

623
00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:28.559
ammunition for blanks.

624
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:36.779
But look, much as I don't like the end of series three, the

625
00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:39.900
universe where the world, the alternate world where Martha is, you

626
00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:42.839
know, spends 12 months going around and the whole place is

627
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:43.200
terrible.

628
00:29:43.259 --> 00:29:46.019
I would have believed that more if the doctor had been a turncoat

629
00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:46.680
in that context.

630
00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:49.500
That would have built for me a situation where she could have shot

631
00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:50.880
the doctor in that environment.

632
00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:55.740
I'm not feeling enough dystopia to have created a situation where

633
00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:57.660
the companion kills a doctor, where it shoots the doctor.

634
00:29:57.720 --> 00:29:59.339
That's probably what I would observe.

635
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:00.119
Exactly.

636
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:00.480
Exactly.

637
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:01.259
There you go.

638
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:01.559
Thank you.

639
00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:02.339
It not earned enough.

640
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:03.960
So conceptually, I don't have a problem with it.

641
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:06.000
But I think it's like wow, where did that come from?

642
00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:07.920
It would have been better if, you know, we'd have had some other

643
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.619
characters or something that was with her and they had been the

644
00:30:10.619 --> 00:30:11.579
one to shoot the doctor.

645
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:15.960
Or if the whole previous episode had been this dystopian future

646
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.180
maybe that was a cliffhanger into this final part.

647
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:18.779
Whatever.

648
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.140
I mean, again, that's my desire, goes back to my desire for it to

649
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:24.779
be a genuine three-part as opposed to a trilogy.

650
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:27.000
And I think we've agreed that those are 2 completely different.

651
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.500
Things.

652
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:29.460
Yeah, yeah.

653
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.339
My big problem with this bit.

654
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:37.200
I actually think that the doctor's speech about humanity needing

655
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.500
guidance and having done a terrible job on its own, I believe

656
00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:41.880
that's really compelling.

657
00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:45.720
It's true to the character, especially because this is the doctor

658
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.539
who has been thrust into being the president of earth against his

659
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:48.960
will.

660
00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:52.559
And then every time he's made president of Earth and makes a

661
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:54.359
decision, all the humans go, you can't do that.

662
00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:55.740
He's like, why did you ask me?

663
00:30:55.859 --> 00:30:57.420
Why did, you know?

664
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:02.880
But for me, the whole problem is the shooting, it's the fact that

665
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.059
the doctor planned for her to pull a gun and shoot him with the

666
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:06.599
blanks.

667
00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:07.200
Yeah.

668
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.619
It's the fact that instead of being angry with him, she's angry

669
00:31:10.619 --> 00:31:13.559
with Nadol for some reason.

670
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:18.059
Like, it's not... how she nearly says a rude word.

671
00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:18.839
Yeah, yeah.

672
00:31:18.900 --> 00:31:19.740
Yeah absolutely.

673
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.400
But I just find myself most of the way through that scene.

674
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:28.319
I feel like it's kind of cribbing the end of Willy Wonka and the

675
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:33.599
chocolate factory with Gene Wilder's rant about, you know, the

676
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.380
children having stolen and Charlie is the worst of all because, you

677
00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:40.019
know, he wasn't even honest about what he did, da da.

678
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:43.859
And I kind of feel this scene actually would have been better if

679
00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:48.839
Bill had then surrendered and just said, yeah, take me away, but

680
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:49.920
I'm going to keep fighting you.

681
00:31:49.980 --> 00:31:54.240
And then that's the test that even without the doctor, she can

682
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:55.440
stick up 1st off.

683
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.779
Because here's the thing. shooting the doctor would not change

684
00:31:57.779 --> 00:31:58.079
anything.

685
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:03.359
The monks aren't ruling more effectively because of the doctor

686
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.059
because they haven't had the doctor on the 100s of other planets.

687
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.779
It is, as you say, complete trailer fodder, and for years, it's

688
00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:12.960
actually totally blinded me to the good qualities of this

689
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:13.259
episode.

690
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:18.960
It's also truer to the character and to the way that the modern

691
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:22.079
series conceptualises companions as being as travelling with a

692
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:25.319
doctor and seeing the universe makes them better people, more

693
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:26.940
rounded, more empathetic.

694
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:30.480
Like that, I think, is a better solution, Brendan.

695
00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:35.519
She does say that if you're on their side, they will win.

696
00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:39.480
And that fits into the way the show works as well.

697
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:44.220
I think that part of the problem is that once the situation is

698
00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:47.339
diffused, everyone laughs at her.

699
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.940
Like she's suddenly surrounded by men laughing at her.

700
00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:54.839
And I think that that is pretty unpleasant as well.

701
00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:56.819
And she doesn't know how to react to that.

702
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.099
And I think that's yucky.

703
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:03.539
I just think the whole thing, like the tone of it is wrong, I

704
00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:05.339
think, for Doctor Who.

705
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:09.960
And while it is the sort of thing we've seen before, Look at how

706
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:15.359
distressed Sylvester McCoy is at Sophie's distress afterwards and

707
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.700
how he apologises to her and explains why he had to do this thing

708
00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:22.740
which we don't get here at all.

709
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.019
And I think that's kind of yucky.

710
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:27.480
Because, like, Billy is so likeable.

711
00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:31.559
I mean, we're going to have this in a few weeks time where Beale

712
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:35.640
undergoes something that's just horrifically terrible and it's the

713
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:39.119
usual Moffat thing of just absolutely torturing the hell out of

714
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:43.200
the companions, which we've talked about before, even as far back

715
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:44.519
as the Hingecliff era.

716
00:33:44.579 --> 00:33:51.299
So yeah, like I do think that that is an unpleasant scene and it's

717
00:33:51.299 --> 00:33:52.619
a bit meretricious as well.

718
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.619
Like you said, Brendan, it's trailer fodder.

719
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:13.559
So, Missy is back, and it's been, what, 2 episodes?

720
00:34:13.619 --> 00:34:15.300
We didn't see her last week, did we?

721
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.099
But we did see her the week before.

722
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:18.000
We did.

723
00:34:18.059 --> 00:34:24.000
And of course, she is absolutely superb as ever. and one of the

724
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.460
best things in the new series. don't know.

725
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:28.860
She could read the telephone directory in a variety of comedy

726
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:29.400
accents.

727
00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:31.079
Exactly, and I would be fine.

728
00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:34.019
What I love, though, is the sequence where basically she is being

729
00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:34.500
the doctor.

730
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:38.519
Again, it's creating that comparison that they are the same race.

731
00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:42.420
They're friends for millennia practically.

732
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.719
And the way that she's helping the doctor work it out in exactly

733
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:47.760
the way that the doctor will do that with a companion.

734
00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:49.079
I just thought that was a beautiful scene.

735
00:34:49.139 --> 00:34:50.820
It's really, really good, isn't it?

736
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:55.260
But then, and then her thing, you know, like, uh, she had defeated

737
00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:57.599
the monks before, which is exactly the sort of thing that you

738
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.280
might expect the doctor to say.

739
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:00.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

740
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.860
And how did she deal with it last time?

741
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:06.059
It's like, well, it was just a wee gown, all that. volcano, you

742
00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:07.260
know, like it's so fun.

743
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:08.699
It's so wonderful.

744
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:12.420
And having Bill confront Missy, I thought, was particularly good.

745
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:13.739
I loved Bill's reaction.

746
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.019
It's like you just have a woman in a vault.

747
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:18.179
Like, have you got a ball?

748
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:20.280
Which is really great.

749
00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:25.019
But then when it becomes clear that, you know, the way of getting

750
00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:31.260
rid of them is to kill or, you know, horribly injure Bill is

751
00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:31.980
pretty good, I think.

752
00:35:32.099 --> 00:35:34.139
It's kind of like data and law.

753
00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:37.440
In that they are both these.

754
00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:39.480
As you say, you know, we're not even talking about, you know, when

755
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:41.280
I my plan to use the monks to do blah.

756
00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:42.719
No, it's when I defeated the monks.

757
00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:47.760
It's like Missy's been going about doing exactly what the doctor's

758
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.420
doing, but just without some kind of moral compass, without sign

759
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:51.840
of guide.

760
00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:52.500
She doesn't understand.

761
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.199
There's that there's that bit of herd that's missing to understand

762
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.000
the difference between good and evil.

763
00:35:57.059 --> 00:35:59.579
But fundamentally they're doing exactly the same sort of things.

764
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:03.000
That's the wonderful thing about this conception of the character

765
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:07.320
the master by Moffat is that she's not necessarily evil.

766
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:08.340
She is differently morale.

767
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:08.940
Exactly.

768
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.139
She just, yeah, yeah.

769
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:11.099
So much more interesting.

770
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:12.179
Yeah, so much more.

771
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:13.739
And Delgado has that a bit as well.

772
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:14.280
Yes.

773
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.940
So she says, I do go on adventures myself.

774
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:18.900
It's not all about you.

775
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:20.400
Yes, yes.

776
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:24.900
I think she is evil and is learning not to be.

777
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.199
Like, the thing that happened 2 weeks ago where she sort of

778
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:30.239
decides that she wants to be good.

779
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:34.440
I'll do anything, you know, like, and that's just her trying to

780
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:35.039
talk away out of it.

781
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:37.860
But I'm not sure that it is, and we'll get to the end of the

782
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:41.519
episode where I think there's some very genuine, proper remorse at

783
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:45.539
the end of the episode, which does lead into the way the season

784
00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:46.440
plays out.

785
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:51.719
But she is still differently moraled, James, in the way that you

786
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.820
say because she says, I'm good.

787
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:59.820
But your version of good is sentimental and kind of unpleasant.

788
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:04.380
The idea is that you won't sacrifice Bill for the sake of an

789
00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:05.519
entire planet.

790
00:37:05.579 --> 00:37:06.300
Yes.

791
00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:10.260
And, you know, we've said before, the doctor and Doctor Who

792
00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:14.159
generally as a program doesn't do utilitarianism, that's not its

793
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:18.539
conception of right and wrong, but it's a conception of right or

794
00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:18.840
right.

795
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:19.860
The trolly problem thing.

796
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:21.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

797
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:24.539
So you're saying Missy is a utilitarian doctor.

798
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:25.739
Maybe.

799
00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:28.920
Maybe, but she doesn't really care.

800
00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:31.260
Maybe she doesn't care about either the planet or the single

801
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:31.559
person.

802
00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:32.219
That's the difference.

803
00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:35.519
Except that we do see at the end of the episode that she does, that

804
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:39.179
she is actually weeping because she killed so all of those

805
00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:39.480
people.

806
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:40.920
It's just that thing.

807
00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:43.320
It like believing that the doctor has turned evil.

808
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:46.139
Can you actually believe that the master has turned good?

809
00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:49.739
Even at the time and even now and the whole thing, I'll do

810
00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:50.940
anything, I'll be good.

811
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:54.480
It's just her thinking this is my way to get out of this.

812
00:37:54.539 --> 00:37:56.219
I just have to put on a very long act.

813
00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:59.340
And I know that we're not, it is, and I think you would have to

814
00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:01.920
say it's a bit ambiguous as to whether she's genuinely changing

815
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.219
before her past self comes back and effectively writes that

816
00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:05.880
error.

817
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.000
Well, I mean, what happens is her past self comes back and there's

818
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.199
a contrast between them.

819
00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:13.739
And then there is the moment in the finale. where she gets to do

820
00:38:13.739 --> 00:38:14.039
that.

821
00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:16.619
Virtue is only virtue and extremists.

822
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:19.440
She gets to be virtuous without reward without witnesses.

823
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:20.099
Yes.

824
00:38:20.099 --> 00:38:25.679
You know, so I, this, in retrospect, is her turning good, I

825
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:25.860
think.

826
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:27.000
But yes, you're right.

827
00:38:27.059 --> 00:38:29.099
We don't quite believe it.

828
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:33.179
Well, I mean, I think I think that Michelle is certainly

829
00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:34.019
performing it.

830
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:37.380
Yes, you know, with some level of honesty.

831
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:41.460
I think that's the true tragedy of this season is that I think she

832
00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:43.019
at least is trying to be good.

833
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:43.980
Okay.

834
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:48.239
And then she is killed by her past self. who won't let that

835
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:48.539
happen.

836
00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:49.980
Yeah, who won't let that happen.

837
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:54.119
And I think that's the tragedy of she was going to help her

838
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:54.840
friend.

839
00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:58.920
She finally decided to help her friend again at the end of the

840
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.780
season and then she's killed.

841
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:02.519
He never knows that she makes.

842
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:02.820
Yes.

843
00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:03.119
Yes.

844
00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:05.699
I'm looking forward to coming back to those episodes again now.

845
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:09.360
It's interesting to talk about, you know, whether we, as fans

846
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:16.500
believe the master can turn good, when you have Michelle Gomez, who

847
00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:21.360
said in interviews that she has looked at bits of the performances

848
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:24.300
of Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley.

849
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:26.639
But I don't think she's ever said, you know, I sat down and

850
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:28.679
watched the sea devils kind of thing.

851
00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:32.340
The way the way that some of the doctor actors have, you know, so

852
00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:36.239
her view of the character is almost entirely her own.

853
00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:37.199
Yes, James.

854
00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:40.440
It's funny that you mentioned the sea devils, because there was

855
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:45.059
actually a scene in this episode, which was cut where the doctor

856
00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:49.079
and Missy reminisce about their sword fight.

857
00:39:49.260 --> 00:39:52.860
But you always got a couple of those sequences in the classic

858
00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:56.400
series where the doctor and the master actually work together, like

859
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:59.039
at the end of Legopolis, you know, the end of tear of the autons

860
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:01.619
even, you know, where the master realises that he's done something

861
00:40:01.619 --> 00:40:03.360
terribly wrong and we need to fix it.

862
00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:04.679
And they do band together.

863
00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:08.880
But there's not that kind of, you know, proper introspection.

864
00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:10.260
Of course not.

865
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:11.880
No, no, I'm not comparing it to that.

866
00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:15.000
I'm just noting the fact that the master is differently moraled.

867
00:40:15.059 --> 00:40:15.539
Yes.

868
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:17.340
He just wants to, you know, have some fun.

869
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:21.659
But it is the thing, which I always say that the master in the

870
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:27.059
news series does, which is that because there are time lord, one

871
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:30.780
of the things that a time lord can do is be the star of Doctor

872
00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:31.079
Who.

873
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:31.559
Yes.

874
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:37.139
And so Missy is there and she is always more fun than Capaldi.

875
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:44.099
And in fact, perhaps more so than Tenant and Sim, who are both

876
00:40:44.099 --> 00:40:47.699
talky and obnoxious in the same way.

877
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:48.900
Do you know what I mean?

878
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:54.780
And, yeah, like, I think maybe maybe Dewan actually outshines

879
00:40:54.780 --> 00:40:56.099
Whittaker as well.

880
00:40:56.159 --> 00:41:00.300
But, you know, just it's just a joy.

881
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.019
I'm so happy.

882
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:03.780
And you know what?

883
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:07.380
There was a particularly cruel line that was cut, but would still

884
00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:11.280
have been terribly funny, but I'm glad it was cut where when the

885
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:15.300
doctor 1st walks into the vault, Missy's 1st sentence to him is

886
00:41:15.300 --> 00:41:16.619
hey, whatever happened to Clara?

887
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:17.760
I'm so sorry.

888
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:18.719
It cracks me up every time.

889
00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:25.320
I just read that and went, whoa.

890
00:41:25.380 --> 00:41:28.920
And I'm like, you know, that's a byproduct of Toby Withouse is

891
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:31.920
writing his 1st draft, not having read anything that's come before

892
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:35.460
in the season, not having read extremists because extremists was

893
00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:39.900
written after these 2 as a write-in to the other 2 episodes.

894
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:43.739
So, you know, Toby Woodhouse had no way of knowing that the 1st

895
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:48.780
time we see Missy this season, she apologises for river for river

896
00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:53.460
dying, you know, at its genuine and it's not a gag, you know.

897
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:56.880
But even so it's Michelle Gomez and you would have just loved to

898
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:59.099
hear her say that.

899
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:01.079
I loved her the way she would fall.

900
00:42:01.139 --> 00:42:02.460
I just loved it.

901
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.559
All right, so let's talk about the resolution.

902
00:42:16.619 --> 00:42:22.199
And Simon, is this our usual love conquers all resolution?

903
00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:26.039
I just, my note is that it just sort of ends very suddenly.

904
00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:29.280
I just feel like it's like, oh, these at the time, oh, that's the

905
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:29.519
end.

906
00:42:29.579 --> 00:42:35.460
I don't, I don't, I kind of think actually, I mean, yes, I see

907
00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:40.920
what you're saying, but also, I kind of like that in that, you

908
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:47.159
know, the monks are defeated through the power of love, of love

909
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:52.440
but through the McGuffin, of, of the fake mum, um, and that not

910
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:53.460
being a elder.

911
00:42:53.579 --> 00:42:54.719
Like, that's an interesting concept.

912
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:58.739
But I just love how they're defeated and because there's only 12

913
00:42:58.739 --> 00:43:01.619
of them, they're just sort of rocket their pyramid.

914
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:04.739
Their pyramid off-squashed a slide slab of London.

915
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:09.059
I only watched it again last night for this recording.

916
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:13.980
And I can't actually entirely remember the conclusion. had that

917
00:43:13.980 --> 00:43:14.760
little impact on me.

918
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:19.739
So it's very similar to silence in the library, uh, only not that

919
00:43:19.739 --> 00:43:25.800
great, which is where the doctor is knocked out and then Bill says

920
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:29.159
no, I'm going to save you, you know, like, yeah, yeah.

921
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:29.400
Yeah.

922
00:43:29.460 --> 00:43:34.559
And so she even ties the doctor up and then says goodbye and then

923
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:37.260
goes to what she thinks is going to be her death or her brain

924
00:43:37.260 --> 00:43:40.619
death or whatever, which is what Missy said would solve the

925
00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:41.039
problem.

926
00:43:41.099 --> 00:43:45.360
And what happens is, how about this for an analogy?

927
00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:51.480
Her memory of her mother is fake, and it's the result of the

928
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:55.980
photos that Capaldi gets for her in the pilot.

929
00:43:56.039 --> 00:44:02.039
And because it's a fake memory, it's not affected by the monks who

930
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:03.659
are poising everyone's memory.

931
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:05.099
Excellent.

932
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:10.380
And so it's the recorder falling into the Tartar force field in

933
00:44:10.380 --> 00:44:11.340
the 3 doctors.

934
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:12.960
That's an interesting analogy.

935
00:44:13.019 --> 00:44:16.139
I was going to use Clara falling into the doctor's time stream.

936
00:44:19.019 --> 00:44:21.119
I think that's excellent.

937
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:23.039
And I think we found our next draft.

938
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:27.539
And that's what I'm talking about.

939
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:30.059
It's like, it's what I was kind of alluding to before, which is

940
00:44:30.059 --> 00:44:33.119
which is just the fact that like, it only takes a little bit more

941
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:36.539
thought to have made it actually work better.

942
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:39.719
In fact, you can see them really struggling because Capaldi has to

943
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:44.219
give a long narration of what's going on during that scene.

944
00:44:44.219 --> 00:44:47.039
And he's explaining it at length and we're throwing literally

945
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:51.059
everything at the wall and there's no real coherent explanation of

946
00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:52.860
what's going on.

947
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:56.519
And it does seem to be kind of the opposite of word peril.

948
00:44:56.579 --> 00:44:58.440
It is just, here are some images.

949
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:01.920
I'm going to talk you through until we're all convinced the

950
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:02.639
episode's ending.

951
00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:03.599
Yeah, yeah.

952
00:45:03.659 --> 00:45:04.860
It's kind of the opposite.

953
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:06.780
It's just as bad, but in a different way.

954
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:08.699
There's no there's no there there.

955
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:11.579
There's no like, why, it's that thing that I've sort of said often

956
00:45:11.579 --> 00:45:16.860
about the other areas of the show yet to come in this podcast.

957
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:18.840
It makes me say, I don't care.

958
00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:20.099
I just, I don't care.

959
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:21.119
Why am I caring?

960
00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:21.719
What's going on?

961
00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:24.599
And that's why I can't even remember the resolution clearly

962
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:26.639
because it's like I wasn't emotionally involved.

963
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:27.300
No.

964
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:31.079
There is a fine line between exposition, though.

965
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:33.539
Obviously, you don't want it to be expository and you don't want

966
00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:35.579
it to be just, here's a whole lot of images and his stuff happens

967
00:45:35.579 --> 00:45:36.480
and bang the end.

968
00:45:36.539 --> 00:45:39.300
But it doesn't do either of those things effectively.

969
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:43.980
No, and I think I think part of the problem is, because exposition

970
00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:48.480
is over the next few seasons of the show, going to become an

971
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.619
increasing problem.

972
00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:54.659
And it seems to me that you simplify the premise so that it

973
00:45:54.659 --> 00:45:57.420
doesn't need the exposition, I think.

974
00:45:57.539 --> 00:45:58.679
No, no, no.

975
00:45:58.739 --> 00:46:00.000
You just exposit better.

976
00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:02.039
Well, there's that. spotted in bits.

977
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:04.380
You just show don't tell.

978
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:06.420
There are ways that things can be written.

979
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.460
It doesn't always work, but there are ways that things can be

980
00:46:08.460 --> 00:46:12.659
written, which does not require that kind of, we think about

981
00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:15.480
exposition when it's a negative, when it's like there's a

982
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:18.900
character who is brought in to say, this is what's happened in the

983
00:46:18.900 --> 00:46:20.820
last 50 minutes or whatever.

984
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.760
As you know, Bob, we were being doing this for that.

985
00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:26.940
That's bad exposition, but exposition is actually a natural part

986
00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:28.440
of any storytelling.

987
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:29.280
Yes, exactly.

988
00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:31.139
But here, do you know what I mean?

989
00:46:31.139 --> 00:46:31.619
majority.

990
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:32.760
You've got images.

991
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:35.880
You can choose to make the images tell the story.

992
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:37.019
Yes, exactly.

993
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:37.380
Yeah.

994
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.679
And here what happens is we get the images of the monks replaced

995
00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:45.659
by images of Bill's mother and, you know, the monks are hideous

996
00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:49.079
and ugly and Bill's mother is an attractive young smiling woman

997
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:53.699
who, you know, Bill loves and there's some genuine love there as

998
00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:55.320
opposed to the love of the monks and stuff.

999
00:46:55.380 --> 00:46:58.679
And you've got Capaldi kind of droning on and on and on about

1000
00:46:58.679 --> 00:46:59.340
what's happening.

1001
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.039
And I think that that is a bit of a weakness.

1002
00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:04.320
I don't think it's love conquers all.

1003
00:47:04.380 --> 00:47:08.400
I actually don't object to love conquers all because I don't, per

1004
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:08.639
se.

1005
00:47:09.059 --> 00:47:14.219
Because we win not because we've got bigger guns, do you know what

1006
00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:14.460
I mean?

1007
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:16.079
Or that sort of thing.

1008
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:17.880
I always like to win because we're smarter than that.

1009
00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:18.599
Yeah, yeah.

1010
00:47:18.659 --> 00:47:22.019
But sometimes I think we win because we love and they hate.

1011
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:23.400
And I think that's okay too.

1012
00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:30.780
The original conception for the ending was that the monks would

1013
00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:33.599
start overwriting Bill's mum.

1014
00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:34.380
Right, okay.

1015
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:39.300
And that Bill's outrage and grief would then pour over the human

1016
00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:43.139
race and the human race would adapt that as loss.

1017
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:44.699
Oh my god, what have we lost?

1018
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:45.539
Yeah, okay.

1019
00:47:45.539 --> 00:47:47.820
And that would bring everyone to their senses.

1020
00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:52.980
And on the one hand, it's kind of like, you know, that is arguably

1021
00:47:52.980 --> 00:47:53.699
more human.

1022
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:56.460
On the other hand, how much exposition would that need?

1023
00:47:56.460 --> 00:48:00.239
And hasn't Bill been through enough in the last 45 minutes?

1024
00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:04.679
I kind of thought about this ending the 1st time I watched it, but

1025
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:08.280
I've softened on it is it's like, okay, it's another Moffat era

1026
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:12.420
companion who is the most important person in creation trademark.

1027
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:18.300
But Bill is not the most important person in creation at this

1028
00:48:18.300 --> 00:48:18.599
point.

1029
00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:19.980
Her mum is.

1030
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:26.519
And I think that, to me, is what sells it because this is a woman

1031
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.519
she never met, you know, she doesn't know what her mum sounds like

1032
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:34.139
or what she was like at parties or how cranky she was on a Sunday

1033
00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:36.119
morning if she didn't have a sleep in.

1034
00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:40.559
She doesn't know any of those things, which is what makes it an

1035
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:41.699
incorruptible memory.

1036
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:45.420
And, you know, that's something in cognitive behavioural therapy

1037
00:48:45.420 --> 00:48:48.719
the idea of thinking of something unfetteredly positive in your

1038
00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:54.179
past and using as a totem, as a touchstone, to believe in as an

1039
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:54.840
anchor point.

1040
00:48:54.900 --> 00:49:00.119
I do think Capaldi having to do all that exposition is a huge

1041
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:00.659
problem.

1042
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:05.699
With the benefit of hindsight and using the finale of Star Trek

1043
00:49:05.699 --> 00:49:06.840
discovery as a touch point.

1044
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:11.039
I think it would have been lovely if somewhere in the memory

1045
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:14.039
palace, if you like, Bill and her mum could have had a scene

1046
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:16.980
together and that's what explains it.

1047
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:18.960
You know, so Bill gets to explain it.

1048
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:22.320
I think you're quite right there, Brendan, in terms of that, that

1049
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:25.199
would have maybe achieved something that we're talking about.

1050
00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:26.699
Yeah, yeah.

1051
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:30.539
There is some dialogue about the link last week, so it doesn't

1052
00:49:30.539 --> 00:49:33.659
come from nowhere and she's not the most important person in

1053
00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:34.139
creation.

1054
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:38.519
She's just the silly person who invited the monks to stay.

1055
00:49:38.579 --> 00:49:40.860
You know, she made a mistake.

1056
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:46.260
And we think that that link is going to mean that, you know, she

1057
00:49:46.260 --> 00:49:49.800
has to be killed, uh, but it gives her power over the monks and

1058
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:52.260
that's kind of a standard Doctor Who kind of thing.

1059
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:54.300
So, like, I guess that's kind of okay.

1060
00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:59.699
But I do think that the exposition kind of wrecks it a bit, to be

1061
00:49:59.699 --> 00:49:59.940
honest.

1062
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.440
Yeah, yeah.

1063
00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:06.239
There is that final scene at the end with the statue that's been

1064
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:10.260
broken down and the reason that I mention it is because I just

1065
00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:14.460
love how the doctor calls out to that woman and just says, hey

1066
00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:15.300
appalling hair.

1067
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.639
Yes, what's that?

1068
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:20.460
Like, what's that, please, doing there?

1069
00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:22.320
Which I just think is magnificent.

1070
00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:24.539
Oh, no, no, they thought they were filming or something.

1071
00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:28.739
It's like, you know, the Zygon gamut and the Loch Ness monster.

1072
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:33.840
It's great, but that's the version of the Doctor Who earth that I

1073
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:36.300
prefer is that, yes, the earth is getting invaded from time to

1074
00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:36.539
time.

1075
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:37.679
And we all forget.

1076
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:40.199
We all just forget because we think it was a student prank.

1077
00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:45.179
Well, here we've been fiddling with memory for 6 months. do not

1078
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:45.480
mean.

1079
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:47.460
So it just works perfectly, I think.

1080
00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:14.880
Well, that's all the time we have.

1081
00:51:14.940 --> 00:51:15.480
Wait.

1082
00:51:15.539 --> 00:51:18.420
We'll be back next week for a quick trip to the Red Planet during

1083
00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:21.539
the reign of Queen Victoria in Empress of Mars.

1084
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:25.679
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1085
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:29.219
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1086
00:51:27.539 --> 00:51:32.099
com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to

1087
00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:36.119
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1088
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.719
500-year diary, and the 2nd grace and bountiful Human Empire.

1089
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:45.420
Until next time, relax, do as you're told, your future is taken

1090
00:51:45.420 --> 00:51:45.960
care of.

1091
00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:48.659
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1092
00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:50.219
Ta-ta.

1093
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:51.119
Bye for now.

1094
00:51:51.179 --> 00:51:51.840
Good night.

1095
00:51:57.900 --> 00:52:00.480
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

1096
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.579
Brendan Jones, Simon Moore and James Selwood.

1097
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:04.619
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1098
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.860
This episode, vignettes from an alien invasion, was recorded on

1099
00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:11.280
the 8th of September 2024 and released on the 3rd of November.

1100
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:20.340
Taking the opportunity tonight to give a shout out to all our

1101
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:24.780
listeners in the U.S. Good luck on Tuesday, and for God's sake

1102
00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:25.800
don't vote for the monks.

1103
00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.139
How do you think?

1104
00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:34.860
I think we're done.

1105
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:37.079
That was great.

1106
00:52:37.139 --> 00:52:37.679
That was good.

1107
00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:38.880
I think it was really good, actually.

1108
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:39.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1109
00:52:39.659 --> 00:52:42.780
Again, I think actually the mediocre episodes actually often that

1110
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:46.019
I found are the best... because there's so many things to talk

1111
00:52:46.019 --> 00:52:48.480
about which are good about them, but which could be better.

1112
00:52:48.539 --> 00:52:51.480
And because when I think the really good episodes are actually the

1113
00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:53.219
ones that I find the hardest to talk about.

1114
00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:56.400
Oh, that was great. great when they did that.

1115
00:52:56.519 --> 00:52:57.059
That was really cool.

1116
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:03.539
I just kind of like the way that even in an episode that like, even

1117
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:07.739
in episodes that no one rates, we're able to say, you know, what's

1118
00:53:07.739 --> 00:53:08.340
good about them.

1119
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:11.460
Maybe no one sets out to do a crappy episode and none of the

1120
00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:15.239
episodes in this era are like war crimes or anything like that, you

1121
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:15.360
know.

1122
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:16.679
I got the name.

1123
00:53:16.739 --> 00:53:22.019
I got the working title last week's episode wrong. contact.

1124
00:53:23.219 --> 00:53:28.079
I thought it was, well, untitled alien invasion project.

1125
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:32.880
James, you're right.

1126
00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:35.820
Both of those were working titles for that script.

1127
00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:36.539
So you're fine.

1128
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:37.679
Mine's better.

1129
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:42.059
Are you surely not worried about us having a factual area?

1130
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:45.360
Definitively inaccurate.

1131
00:53:47.940 --> 00:53:49.559
All right.

1132
00:53:49.619 --> 00:53:52.440
I think that's, I think that's probably our tag.

1133
00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:55.139
So you come in and correct the thing.

1134
00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:55.679
Oh, there you go.

1135
00:53:55.739 --> 00:53:55.920
Yes.

1136
00:53:55.980 --> 00:53:56.460
Yeah, yeah.

1137
00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:57.420
See?

1138
00:53:57.420 --> 00:53:58.440
That's our tag.

1139
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:01.019
All right.

1140
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:01.619
Okay.

1141
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:02.519
Bye-bye.

1142
00:54:02.579 --> 00:54:05.159
Okay, thank you, Brendan, that was really fun.

1143
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.519
And I think the new laptop, this new set of...

1144
00:54:08.579 --> 00:54:11.340
It's more comfortable. think it works, yes.

1145
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:12.179
Yeah.

1146
00:54:12.179 --> 00:54:14.039
Yeah, it seems to work, so I think we're okay.

1147
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:14.880
We'll do that again.

1148
00:54:14.940 --> 00:54:15.599
Brilliant.

1149
00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:16.860
Okay, Uru.

1150
00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:17.159
All right.

1151
00:54:17.460 --> 00:54:18.179
See you soon.

1152
00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:18.900
Bye.

1153
00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:20.699
Send me the same file.

1154
00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:21.960
No, you hang up.

1155
00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:22.559
No, you hang up.

1156
00:54:22.619 --> 00:54:23.280
No, you hang up.

1157
00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:23.880
He's still here.

1158
00:54:23.940 --> 00:54:24.360
Oh, yeah.

1159
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:25.440
He hung up. still here.

1160
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:26.340
There we go.

1161
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.559
Now, last time I forgot to turn off.

1162
00:54:31.619 --> 00:54:32.460
The recording?

1163
00:54:32.460 --> 00:54:32.933
the recording.