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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:23:09

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast with fond memories of those happy days

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when space guns used mirror on.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Toby, and I'm the nostalgic hemispherical single entendre.

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Shrieking in the last moments.

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I don't know about you.

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I got very excited.

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Well, it's 1881 and a small group of British soldiers are hoping

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to extend the Empire's sovereign reach into new territory, unaware

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that they will soon encounter a queen, perhaps even more scaly and

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terrifying than their own.

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Let's see how they get on as we discuss Empress of Mars.

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All right, Toby, how do you feel about Mark Gatis as a Doctor Who

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writer over the last 10 seasons?

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Well, I mean, full disclosure, I know Mark a little bit.

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So, um, you know, I, I, I obviously having a, an affinity for him

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as a person, but as a writer, he was sort of the obvious one

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wasn't he?

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When it when it came back.

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It was, well, they're definitely going to get that guy because the

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League of Gentlemen were riding very high.

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I think what Mark does particularly well is the word nostalgia has

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already been used.

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He writes very well.

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He evokes a sort of literary style that works particularly well

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with Doctor Who.

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You know, he's got a, he's got an affection for sort of, what do

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we call it, Victoriana or and Gothic and all of that.

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And that comes into play with this one with the way that the

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soldiers are sort of written.

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He's got a great ear for all of that.

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And it's sort of Robert Holmes is that you go, well, I wonder if

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some of this is based more on our literary, the literary sources

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that we have for this sort of stuff rather than historical

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accuracy.

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I don't have a problem with that at all.

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I mean, the literary things are there for a reason and they're

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comforting.

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But I do wonder, and I'll be interested as we discuss that.

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When you look back over all of his episodes of Doctor Who, which

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all have ingredients that should make for a classic, why none of

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his episodes are really considered, the classic, you know, he

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never wins the season poll, for example, and I'm curious as to why

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that is.

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Um, you know, they all contain stuff that should be tailored for

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me, particularly.

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I mean, the idiot's lantern is Doctor Who meets Crater Mass.

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And yet that's not my favourite story of that season.

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So why is that?

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Has he been let down by execution?

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I also don't dislike any of the stories.

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So I'm curious as to why what could be a potentially heady

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cocktail that they're never the episodes that sort of run away

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with the season polls or when we listen to, you know, podcasts

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that pick the classics of the season or whatever, they never seem

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to come at top with the with the possible exception.

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Uh, of uh, um, Oh, the one with Diana Rigg, what's it called?

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There's, I god say, the Scarlet, the Scarlet Death, but it's, the

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Crimson horror, the Scarlet Death, the Crimson horror.

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I knew it was something that.

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I'm getting very old.

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It's very early where I am.

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By the way, everybody else in this podcast has been up all day and

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probably had, you know, their brains have had time to warm up.

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I've been buried in my Martian cave and woken up, especially to do

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this.

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So apologies if I break out and kill you all.

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Just thinking what you're saying, Toby, and I was thinking this as

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well, exactly the same thing we've talked about ourselves here.

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Could it just be longevity?

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Is he the Edwardian pop lit version of the new series in that Mac

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Hulk needed really sex episodes to flesh out his characters?

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And for me, with Mark Gatis?

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It's I love what he does.

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I love the Lucifer box series if you've read those that he did.

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And he obviously loves, we can talk about the antecedents in a

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bit.

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But it's characterisation and it's the secondary and tertiary

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characters and then the little revelations about them.

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It's that glorious girl in the war room, pushing the little timber

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Spitfires around, and you know her backstory is there on the

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cutting room floor.

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And it's the same with the kernel here and the flighty captain and

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you know, there's something going on there.

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And then there's the marks of the hangman's noose on his neck.

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I really want to know about these characters and I know Marcus put

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all of this in.

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I just feel he's limited by the 21st century.

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I think sometimes that's the case.

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I mean, certainly his very early stuff does seem to be trying to

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cram 4 parts into 45 minutes and that's doable.

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I mean, that's not a thing that you can't do given the way that TV

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works now.

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But here I thought that there was just enough incident for 45

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minutes.

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And it seems to me that when he's writing for the Moffat era, he

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pushes himself a bit and does some things that are not necessarily

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sort of central to his wheelhouse.

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Here, though, he's doing something that's very him.

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And I think he has just enough happening to give us, you know, a

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chance to understand the interplay between the characters and what

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everyone sort of wants and needs.

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And as a result, I think you get something that's just sort of a

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crackingly good story.

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Like, I think it's just terrifically fun and enjoyable and it

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moves at a clip.

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What do you think, Todd?

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Well, I agree.

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I really enjoy this one and I mean, I enjoy their crimson horror

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horror too.

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And most of his, but for me, Crimson Horror, and this one are 2 of

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the standouts, and I really did enjoy this, and I liked all the

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different characters in it, and I also liked the fact that we got

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to spend time with Bill and the doctor, you know, and he paired it

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back or for whatever reasons, you know, Nardo's not in it very

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much, and I think at this point in the season, it's good just to

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see the Bill Doctor Dynamic.

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So there are all sorts of weird rumours around the place, but one

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of them was that he had wanted to do a paladon story and had

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decided that it was probably a bit too much to set that up in 45

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minutes.

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And so he's all but done a paladon story in some senses.

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I mean, it's definitely a prequel to the Peladon stories.

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It sounds.

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Almost a minor strike.

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And I guess in a sort of Britain where, what, have we just had

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Teresa May sort of elected is that, I think that might be what's

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what's just happening.

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Brexit hasn't quite happened yet, but we do have the doctor

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telling the empress to not cling on to a past, but instead to

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fight for a future and things.

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And I know that Gatas stuff isn't sort of necessarily intensely

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political, although politics isn't absent from any of her.

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But there's definitely stuff there, isn't it?

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I mean, Peladon was entering the EU in the 1970s and now here we

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are at the end of all of that and kind of weirdly at the beginning

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of it as well.

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Well, it's interesting, isn't it, that a writer that revels in, you

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know, nostalgia or in, you know, who calls back very

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affectionately to those times of empire, which we now have a very

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complicated relationship with, but it's almost de riguer to just

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dismiss the empire out of hand.

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And yet there are elements of it that if you, you know, if you

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grew up in the time that a lot of us did, we're comforted by the

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sort of iconography and the little bits of, you know, slightly.

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I love in this the, you know, the dinner bell and everyone sitting

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around and having their tea, which is bananas and yet it's

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strangely comforting at the same time.

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So he has this curious relationship with that that I think then, if

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you want to be political about it, speaks to why we look to the

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past to give us our comfort as we stride towards the future, you

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know, which sounds like it's a paradoxical way to behave, you

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know.

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It's actually sort of terribly fun, isn't it?

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I think that 70s Doctor Who, you know, let's compare it to the

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Paladon stories because that's clearly what we're kind of going

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for.

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We have the sort of ice warriors that we have there that are kind

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of not out and out villains, you know, they're ambivalent or

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ambiguous.

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You know, they could go either way.

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There are good people and bad people and all of that.

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But in 70s, Doctor Who, you could never have had people from the

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19th century invading Mars.

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Like, that's just not something that 70s Doctor Who could ever

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ever have thought of doing.

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And what they would have done instead is what they actually did

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which is have the Earth Empire.

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Not because it was unthought of because it was too close to the

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50s and 60s films.

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You know, I'm trying to think of the ones that, um, Okay, Laurie

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Johnson composed the Avengers composer, uh, 1st man in the moon.

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Anyway, he did the score for that.

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It was still very much clunky and a little bit Disney in the 70s

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to put anyone on the with Sergeant Pepper's jacket and a Dick Van

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Dyke accent.

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It was just a little bit too close.

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What do you think, Toby?

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Well, I hadn't thought of it in that way because I do think that

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that's one of the big appeals of this episode is that it's because

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I always say that Doctor Who doesn't travel in time so much as

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travel in genre and that what the different episodes give us is a

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different feel and one of the beauties of being a fan is, you can

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go, what sort of story am I in the mood for, you know, that evokes

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which particular genre in a way?

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And this one does a thing that obviously is a trademark of Mark

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Gatis, but that feels sort of fresh, even though again, seemingly

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contradictory, it's nostalgic, is to have that kind of H.G. Wells

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Jules Verne, sort of feel about it, is that the intrepid

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adventurers are wearing for us now, the past as the future.

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So I love those.

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I love Anthony Calf's spacesuit in the last scene and the fact

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that they so it's Victorian men on Mars kind of thing.

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And that's what the first, I think that's what you're alluding to

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wasn't it?

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The 1st men on the moon is and Mark has done a version of that

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where people are dressed in.

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It's not cyberpunk, but it's that kind of thing, you know, it's

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the future made of the past, which is a beautifully Doctor Who

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thing.

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Because again, I always think Doctor Who is about dissonance.

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It's about a clash of styles.

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It's about a rackety police box in front of a futuristic vista.

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So a spacesuit made out of Victoriana.

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Um, you know, men in those uniforms, but on Mars is a really

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doctor who he thing and works now.

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I hadn't thought about why they maybe didn't do that in the 70s.

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I think that's a, I think that's a good call.

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And they were too busy being modern and fresh and exciting and

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there was already too much going on with the 3 day week and

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everything else to talk about.

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I mean, Doctor Who takes a while to kind of discover all of the

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things that it can do, and the new series discovers some things

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that Doctor Who can do that weren't available, I think, to the old

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series.

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And it, I mean, it's not till series 10 that we get aliens

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involved in Earth's past.

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We've kind of more or less abandoned going to the past at all

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really, in most of the 70s because of a kind of feeling that the, I

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don't know, that the historicals were old-fashioned or something

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like that, and we hadn't thought of a way of making them work.

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So I think it isn't the sort of thing that they would do, but it

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is the sort of thing that's in the air, isn't it?

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You've got Edgar Rice Burrows, you know, writing in the early 20th

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century.

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Well, I was going to say John Carter.

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Exactly, right.

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Exactly this.

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And then you've got a try to haggard.

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I mean, this is she, not the Kenneth Williams version, which was

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called Get Her.

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Julian and Sandy did actually do a version of this.

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Yes, yes, back in the day.

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It's absolutely all of the stuff that Mark adores.

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Yeah.

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And that version of the 1st man in the moon, which is kind of

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perhaps alluded to here, in a sense, is already out there.

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He's made it by this point.

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I don't know if any of you have seen it.

242
00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:22.500
Have you seen it?

243
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:22.860
at time?

244
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.620
So it's Rory Kinnear and Mark Gaitis.

245
00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:32.220
And it's set on the day that people land on the moon in 1969 and

246
00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:37.740
it tells the story of a trip to the moon decades earlier that Rory

247
00:13:37.740 --> 00:13:38.940
Kinnear's character had done.

248
00:13:38.940 --> 00:13:42.059
And that framing story is all completely gated.

249
00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:46.860
It doesn't come from the H.G. Wells novel, obviously, because it's

250
00:13:46.860 --> 00:13:47.759
too late for that.

251
00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:52.919
Um, so this is a very sort of gaitacy thing and I think, you know

252
00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:54.960
it seems like the sort of thing that Doctor Who should obviously

253
00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:56.100
be doing.

254
00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:00.059
It's something we can do now because we've got the CGI, like all

255
00:14:00.059 --> 00:14:02.519
of that stuff on Mars looks absolutely brilliant.

256
00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:03.480
It really does.

257
00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:06.179
But it is also Doctor Who in cave sets, isn't it?

258
00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:10.019
Exactly. what we grew up with and what we love.

259
00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:15.120
Yeah, so we're, he's mining our love of that, but also to building

260
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:21.059
on the law of the ice warriors as well by having the queen, you

261
00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:22.919
know, without really contradicting the past.

262
00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:27.480
Like I didn't really like Cold War because I just didn't buy that

263
00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:32.340
they were these really skinny aliens in armour, whereas he doesn't

264
00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:33.059
touch on this here.

265
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.539
It doesn't go back to how that episode and how that was done.

266
00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:40.679
I like it when we revisit the law of Doctor Who, but add something

267
00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:42.059
new and interesting.

268
00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:46.139
So she's got a helmet that looks a little bit like the ice lords

269
00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:49.019
from the sort of 70s.

270
00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.299
Well, from, you know, from the original things.

271
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.940
I have to put my cards on the table and say, I don't really like

272
00:14:53.940 --> 00:14:55.200
the Ice Warriors very much.

273
00:14:55.259 --> 00:14:59.820
I think, am I, you know, it's clear why they kept turning up

274
00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:04.320
because we have the big fibreglass things in storage and it won't

275
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.500
cost that much to dust them off and kind of amend them a bit.

276
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.279
But they are just green lizard people from Mars and there's a

277
00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.279
sense in which you kind of think we could perhaps have thought of

278
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.679
something a little bit more imaginative than that.

279
00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:19.799
I think the ice Warriors themselves, you know, when they have the

280
00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:22.200
mismatched bodies with the big heads and all that sort of thing.

281
00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:26.340
You just, you can't help, but, you know, love them and laugh at

282
00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:26.820
the same time.

283
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:30.419
I mean, I like the, I like the lords like Azaxir and all that sort

284
00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:35.820
of thing and it's good having both Friday and and what's her

285
00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:36.059
name?

286
00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:37.679
Iraxa.

287
00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:41.220
It's good having both of them here to be the voice of the Ice

288
00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:44.399
Warriors and also then having the 2 women, you know, boy.

289
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:55.799
Now, come on, we haven't predicated the big reveal the curtain

290
00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:56.460
parting.

291
00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:58.919
We never saw Alpha Centauri's curtains part.

292
00:15:58.980 --> 00:15:59.940
Yes, we do.

293
00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:01.379
That's when the hexapod things come out.

294
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.080
But did anyone else think when they were 1st watching this, and

295
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.139
this is especially for Toby, that it was Katie doing the voice.

296
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.720
I really thought it was Katie doing the voice.

297
00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:12.539
And of course, she's done it for Brig finished.

298
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.279
She's done a Martian Empress.

299
00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:15.539
I think before this went out.

300
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:19.679
Well, I didn't I didn't wonder if it was Katie.

301
00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:24.840
My initial thought because I knew that Zan was still around was, oh

302
00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:28.679
I do hope that's who I think it is, because I'm, you know, I'm

303
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:31.620
anybody that's listened to anything I've done. knows that I'm sort

304
00:16:31.620 --> 00:16:35.340
of all about the guest actors and the people who, you know, pass

305
00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:36.539
in and out of Doctor Who.

306
00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:38.159
Did you squeeze?

307
00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:40.440
Did you squeeze and melt because we did?

308
00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:46.320
I'm not a man who squeeze, but what I did was I shuffled my

309
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.659
slipper slightly and my pipe got a little chew.

310
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.559
That's a that's a that's a squeeze.

311
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:56.039
That could have actually powered an invasion force had you done it

312
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:56.340
a lot.

313
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:58.500
No, I really thought it was Katie.

314
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.259
So I got a double squee when I heard his son's voice and thought

315
00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:02.700
my God, they've got all the girls back.

316
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.119
And then I was horribly wrong, but I'm not horribly wrong because

317
00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.160
I love the woman who plays the empress.

318
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:11.880
But I really did think it was Katie. is really good.

319
00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:14.160
Like, I think the empress is pretty great.

320
00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:19.859
But I do kind of wonder a little bit about.

321
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.799
So I think, like, I think there's some really good things going on

322
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:27.900
here, but there's a way in which I just wasn't super convinced by

323
00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:32.460
what was going on with her at the end and where I wasn't quite

324
00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:36.240
sure what was going on with God's Acre at the end as well.

325
00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:39.960
Great names, by the way.

326
00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:42.119
Yeah, yeah, catch love and God's name.

327
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:43.200
Yeah, beautiful, for goodness' sake.

328
00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:44.160
That could go either way.

329
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:48.599
I think before we current, I think I misunderstood the question

330
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:52.500
because you were asking if I thought Katie was the empress, not if

331
00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:54.359
I thought Katie was Alpha Centauri.

332
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:59.279
No, I definitely thought Katie was doing the voice for about half

333
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.460
of the performance and then I started to tweak, oh, it isn't, but

334
00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:05.339
there was a little hope of my fanboy heart when this 1st went

335
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:05.640
out.

336
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:08.819
And then Isan spoke and I thought, no, I'm right.

337
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:10.319
It was Katie, because it's a son.

338
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:12.000
So there's those few seconds.

339
00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:14.039
Those few little seconds.

340
00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:15.599
Right, I see.

341
00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:18.539
Because I could hear Katie doing Alpha Centauri as well because

342
00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:21.839
she's more versatile than we think, Katie, because she's so

343
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.680
brilliant as Joe. You forget that actually she's a really gifted

344
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:26.579
character player.

345
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.119
But no, I didn't, I didn't think she was, she was the empress.

346
00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.660
Although that would have been a nice touch, but Adele Lynch does a

347
00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:34.140
great job anyway.

348
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:38.640
And obviously they've decided, unlike Cold War, where Nick Briggs

349
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:42.180
comes in and dubs the ice warrior, they've decided to let the

350
00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:43.140
actors do it themselves.

351
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.740
And I always think that that's ultimately nicer to the actors if

352
00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:49.200
you're if you're playing the part you want to be saying the

353
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:49.559
lines.

354
00:18:49.619 --> 00:18:53.819
And um, and Richard Ashton, who plays Friday, is a is a fine

355
00:18:53.819 --> 00:18:54.240
actor.

356
00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:57.180
So it's nice that we, you know, we have him giving the performance

357
00:18:57.180 --> 00:18:58.200
rather than him being.

358
00:18:58.259 --> 00:19:01.259
And that's no disrespect for to the work that Nick does, but I

359
00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:02.579
think in the visual medium.

360
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.559
If it's a monster who's moving his mouth.

361
00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:05.519
You want the performance, really.

362
00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:07.140
Agreed, agreed.

363
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:08.700
I mean, I think she's got some great lines.

364
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.460
Like, what did the pink thing sound?

365
00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:16.920
And sleep no more, my worries. always good when you throw in like

366
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.740
the name of an episode that you've actually written previously.

367
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.980
I have to say in that scene, though, I was wondering how the

368
00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:27.539
Empress thought the warriors who were in the cryosleep pods like

369
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:29.700
way up the top of the walls, how they were going to get down.

370
00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:33.720
Look, it literally looked great.

371
00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:37.259
Maybe they're like the sea devils now and they can just leap and

372
00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:39.539
land without they leap.

373
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:50.700
I mean, that is really an extraordinarily great moment and a great

374
00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:51.779
looking moment as well.

375
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.359
So we have Wayne Yip directing.

376
00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:58.319
He'll go on to do resolution and he has already done the lie of

377
00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.039
the land this year.

378
00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:02.039
And I think the look that we get.

379
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:04.619
Like, we don't have a sort of big technological look.

380
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:06.059
It something that we avoid.

381
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:11.579
The gargantua looks like, sort of fairly standard technology and

382
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:12.660
perhaps something else.

383
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:18.119
But, you know, the hive doesn't look sort of crummy and

384
00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:19.559
technical.

385
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:21.900
It looks really quiet, impressive, I think.

386
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:23.819
Oh yeah, I think the whole thing.

387
00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.000
I think I think all the tunnels and everything like that looks

388
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:27.299
great.

389
00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:31.680
You know, when you've got all the period costumes against that

390
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:32.819
that looks fantastic.

391
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.539
I love the fact that Friday is the one trying to stop this

392
00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:40.380
slaughter and everything and is working, you know, with the doctor

393
00:20:40.380 --> 00:20:41.460
and that's something you never see.

394
00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:44.759
The original ice warriors do very much.

395
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:46.380
You know, they're just warriors, you know?

396
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:49.259
And I think that's great having that character there doing that.

397
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.799
And I think the fact that the queen talking to Bill, about all

398
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.299
these noisy men and oh, I think that she is persuaded, you know

399
00:20:57.299 --> 00:20:58.140
not to kill them all.

400
00:20:58.200 --> 00:20:59.819
Like you were saying your problems at the end.

401
00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:04.019
Well, I mean, I think that what is good is the way that Friday, in

402
00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:09.480
a way, reacts against the queen doesn't he, because the queen has

403
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:14.519
criticised him for kind of going native for, you know, being one

404
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:15.059
of their parents.

405
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:19.740
And he kind of says, no, no, that's a tactical thing, but he is

406
00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:21.599
still sort of dismissed by her.

407
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:26.460
And he does want to stop her from killing everyone at the end.

408
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.859
And so there is that great moment where they're all kind of

409
00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:32.099
emerging from the ground and Friday's emerging and we don't know

410
00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:34.980
how to read that because we don't initially know that it's him.

411
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.859
It's just, you know, there's an ice warrior coming up behind

412
00:21:37.859 --> 00:21:38.220
them.

413
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:41.880
And then we see it's him and then we realise why he's there.

414
00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:43.680
And I think all of that is really good.

415
00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.500
I think, and I don't think we would have got that.

416
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:50.640
You know, Nick Briggs is a genius at doing these voices, these

417
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.539
monster voices, but I do think that the performance of the actor

418
00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:56.160
in this is just really great.

419
00:21:56.220 --> 00:21:58.019
And sells him as a character.

420
00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:02.279
And it speaks to some of the more subtle elements because this, I

421
00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:05.160
think the reason this story works is that it has the, the, the

422
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.700
obvious stuff, you know, the, the, the juxtaposition of the, the

423
00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:10.799
the empire and outer space and all of that, which works

424
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:11.400
beautifully.

425
00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:13.319
But I think it has those subtle moments.

426
00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:16.859
You know, the whole thing about Friday, an inverted com is going

427
00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:17.400
native.

428
00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:21.900
The subtle undertone of that is if we spend enough time rubbing

429
00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:25.140
shoulders with each other, we get to understand each other, even

430
00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:26.460
though he's not treated particularly well.

431
00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:28.799
And he's got that brilliant bit, and Richard told me that he'd

432
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:30.539
worked this out with Ferdinand Kingsley.

433
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:32.940
You know, when he's clearing the plates and he just brushes up

434
00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:36.240
against the one that he doesn't like the one that's the obvious

435
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:36.839
bad guy.

436
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.960
You know, he just sort of nudges him a bit as if, say, I don't

437
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:40.380
really like you.

438
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:42.660
And he said that they worked that out, you know, when they were

439
00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:42.960
doing it.

440
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.420
And the director obviously liked it and favoured it and did a

441
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:47.460
close-up and included it in the edit.

442
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:50.279
So little moments like that have to go through a lot of processes

443
00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:53.339
to end up in the final program, even though it's a, you know, a

444
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:54.240
split 2nd shot.

445
00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:55.799
But it's lovely little bits like that.

446
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:59.700
And that echos, I think, the very clever bit at the beginning

447
00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:05.099
where the doctor thinks that God's sake is going to shoot the ice

448
00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:08.160
warrior because there's a monster advancing on him.

449
00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.799
He's like, no, no, no, it's you that's the unfamiliar thing.

450
00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:15.779
And that's all about we accept what is familiar and it's the old

451
00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:19.680
you know, it's the old racist thing of, well, well, you know, yeah

452
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:21.539
the one that lives next door to me is all right.

453
00:23:21.660 --> 00:23:24.119
It's only the ones I've never met that I don't like, you know.

454
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:32.400
And it's a sort of subtle underlying of the idea that actually we

455
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:36.720
may look and sound different in all of those things, but deep down

456
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.660
we can appeal to the, it's not even humanity, is it?

457
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.079
Because they're not, they're not human, but what, you know, the

458
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.619
fact that we're life forms who can coexist without killing each

459
00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:46.920
other.

460
00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:51.420
And I think all of that, I always like it when a story has moments

461
00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:58.500
that metaphorically underline, you know, some kind of theme, some

462
00:23:58.500 --> 00:24:02.640
kind of, that the writer's got some kind of idea more beyond just

463
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:03.900
telling a story.

464
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.859
Um, you know, that beyond just the plot, that the plot is

465
00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:08.759
representative of something.

466
00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:09.839
And I think this has that.

467
00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:14.880
I think, you know, the character of Catch Love gets a conversation

468
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:20.700
like gets a speech where he is talking about, you know, this is

469
00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:24.779
Mars, this is part of the British Empire, obviously I belong here

470
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:29.519
and he talks about how he's here to strip this place for resources

471
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:32.220
and, you know, take it over.

472
00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:36.960
And there's a moment where we look at Bill, just for a 2nd who

473
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:40.380
kind of almost sort of holds her head in her hands, you know

474
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:44.400
because she's someone who is acutely aware of the history of

475
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.400
empire, I imagine, given her background.

476
00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.579
And I just thought that was terrifically good.

477
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:56.099
And because of the nostalgia thing, because we enjoy the teacups

478
00:24:56.099 --> 00:25:00.059
and the little tents erected in Martian caverns and all of that.

479
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:01.380
Where did they get the eggs?

480
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:03.180
The flower?

481
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:03.900
Making cakes.

482
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:04.500
It makes no sense.

483
00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:06.599
They brought it with them.

484
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:11.460
But it is running out, remember, in dialogue. running out of it.

485
00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:15.720
There is a proper critique, I think, of the empire.

486
00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:20.519
This is the British Empire invading a place that has its own

487
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:26.579
empress, its own people, its own resources, and ordinarily we

488
00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:28.380
would have made it the Earth Empire.

489
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:29.759
Here we make it, the British Empire.

490
00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:34.140
And I think it is properly critiqued, that it's kind of the

491
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:37.440
opposite of Bob Holmes, where Bob Holmes is very critical of the

492
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:38.759
aesthetics of Empire.

493
00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:42.599
He thinks that empire is ridiculous and that the people kind of

494
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.720
involved in it are, you know, there's all these sort of blowhards

495
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:46.259
and things.

496
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:51.900
We did an episode of Blake 7 called Traitor, where all of the

497
00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:54.539
Federation people were kind of characterised.

498
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:58.619
It's just the most pompous and tedious sort of offices of the

499
00:25:58.619 --> 00:25:59.460
British army.

500
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.799
But he doesn't critique it morally.

501
00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:05.460
But I do think we get a proper moral critique of empire here from

502
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:06.779
gators.

503
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:09.539
And I think there's a there is a wonderful moment.

504
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.420
You know, we see the thing at the beginning where we see God save

505
00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:18.900
the Queen on the surface of Mars, or under the ice cap of Mars, and

506
00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:22.319
we briefly hear the national anthem.

507
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:26.519
The next time that we properly see it after we know what it's for

508
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.059
and who's created it and what's happened to them.

509
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:35.099
Murray riffs on Gustav Holtz's Mars bringer of war from the

510
00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:35.579
planets.

511
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:39.660
And it's the Queen of Mars, of course, that that was for.

512
00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:41.940
And that's a very moffety thing, isn't it?

513
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:45.180
The idea that there's something we think we know what it means

514
00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:49.740
then we, uh, we discover what it means. what it actually means

515
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.140
which is very good, I think.

516
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.400
Clever, yeah.

517
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.400
So let's talk about our regulars this week.

518
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.500
We have an adult with us but only very briefly.

519
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:14.759
Why does the Tartars, why does the Tartars take off again?

520
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:19.920
In order to get Nardol out of the episode so that he can go and

521
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.839
bring Missy back for the final scene.

522
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:25.799
There doesn't seem to be any actual explanation for it in the show

523
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:26.279
does there?

524
00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:28.859
Well, they're doing something naughty and they're not meant to be

525
00:27:28.859 --> 00:27:32.819
there, and the TARDIS knows that it's very proprietorial granny

526
00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:33.779
TARDIS this season.

527
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:35.279
Oh, maybe that's it.

528
00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:39.480
But also, again, I just think Mark needs another. episode.

529
00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.400
All of his stories need another episode.

530
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:43.319
And that's just the way he writes.

531
00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:47.279
He thinks like a Victorian Edwardian adventure writer.

532
00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:49.259
He wants to get in deep and he throws things in.

533
00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.740
No, honestly, I think that's just all it is because yes, I'm

534
00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:56.160
always thinking, oh, but, but, but, but then you have to suspend

535
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.920
that part of the, the abacus of the fanboy head.

536
00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:03.420
But it was another kind of nostalgic, for me, the involvement or

537
00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:07.140
otherwise of Nardal, because it reminded me of the stories of your

538
00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:10.859
particularly the 60s where for whatever reason, a regular couldn't

539
00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:11.339
be in it.

540
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.579
And so there had to be a way of, you know, if this had been in the

541
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:19.859
60s, Matt Lucas would have been entirely on film and you know, and

542
00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:21.299
sort of and played in.

543
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:25.259
And I, as somebody that likes the mechanics of the way that the

544
00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:26.099
show is put together.

545
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.519
I think Matt Lucas was always going to be unavailable for this

546
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:30.480
episode, wasn't he?

547
00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:34.019
So they had to, they had to come up with a way of not having him

548
00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:34.440
in it.

549
00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:39.539
And as somebody watching with different hats on, you know, as your

550
00:28:39.539 --> 00:28:43.500
archeologist hat goes, oh, okay, they've probably had him for a

551
00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:45.660
day and they had him on a couple of sets and they had to, boom

552
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:46.140
boom, boom.

553
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.339
And I quite like that.

554
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.160
And if you can't use somebody, yeah, get them out of the story.

555
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:52.140
And in fact, they bookend it very nicely.

556
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.359
But don't make too much.

557
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:57.420
It doesn't really matter why the TARDIS does what it does, you

558
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.720
know, does a thing, get him out of the story and do it with

559
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:01.200
economy.

560
00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:03.299
So I thought I thought that was quite fun.

561
00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:06.119
As soon as he sort of vanished, I was like, oh, I've got a feeling

562
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:09.599
he's not going to be in this story because they're just telling it

563
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:10.500
with the two, you know.

564
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.240
And I'm okay with that.

565
00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:14.519
I actually really like the fact that at this point in the season

566
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:19.680
we get just Bill and the doctor to see how she's matured as a

567
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.259
companion by herself and how she acts with the doctor and other

568
00:29:22.259 --> 00:29:22.619
people.

569
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:24.480
And I really, really liked that at this point.

570
00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:28.619
We've just had, you know, the trilogy with all of them, 4 episodes

571
00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:29.880
with all of them.

572
00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:32.400
So I really like that and I like the fact that no one else out of

573
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.380
the way comes back with Missy at the end.

574
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.140
It's very funny because they obviously couldn't get Michelle Gomez

575
00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:37.980
as well.

576
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.920
Like she's only in the Tartar set and the other bits of voiceover

577
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.259
which I love too.

578
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:45.960
Like, I mean, that's economical as well.

579
00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:47.759
But I really love.

580
00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:49.680
I love Pearl Mackey.

581
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:51.720
She's stunningly beautiful.

582
00:29:51.779 --> 00:29:52.799
I love her hair in this episode.

583
00:29:52.859 --> 00:29:54.779
I was going to ask you about the hair.

584
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:56.339
Yeah, one of my things.

585
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:56.819
Okay.

586
00:29:56.819 --> 00:30:00.539
It's like, what, what, what, what, what do the companions hear?

587
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:01.200
I love it.

588
00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:01.740
Yeah.

589
00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:05.099
And I just love the fact she gets to spend, you know, her and the

590
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:08.220
doctor are just chatting and she's talking about, you know

591
00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:13.380
different movies and stuff and then that pays off with him with

592
00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:14.940
him going frozen.

593
00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:16.859
Yeah, the climax.

594
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:18.720
It's little things like that.

595
00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:21.720
And this is why I like this episode so much and I think I said it

596
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.299
to you very early on in this season.

597
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.099
This is one of my favourite episodes of the season.

598
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:29.220
You know, I think it's really, really, really, really good.

599
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.660
Like, I really enjoy it.

600
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:35.759
And it's for those moments with her and with Peter, in this whole

601
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:36.119
situation.

602
00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:40.200
I mean, in a way, we spend a lot of early episodes this season

603
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:43.440
kind of establishing their relationship and now here it is.

604
00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:47.460
And so there's not that much going on between them.

605
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.079
But this is what I want.

606
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:51.119
I just wanted them, you know?

607
00:30:51.180 --> 00:30:54.119
The early episodes are about establishing and you need to get past

608
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:54.420
that.

609
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:58.440
And once they establish that, then Nardol comes in and it's like a

610
00:30:58.440 --> 00:30:59.039
new dynamic.

611
00:30:59.099 --> 00:31:01.319
It's like Harry and Sarah and all that sort of thing, which is

612
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:01.500
great.

613
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:02.099
I love all that.

614
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:05.880
Yeah, but at this point, I just wanted these and it's right at the

615
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:07.079
right moment for me.

616
00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:10.500
And especially like, you know, her look at the, you know, when she

617
00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:14.160
gets tears in her eyes towards the end, that moment is just so

618
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:15.299
powerful, you know?

619
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:16.559
Yeah, yeah.

620
00:31:16.619 --> 00:31:21.180
I also think if it's a story where you can't, that there aren't

621
00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:23.519
enough strands to use the 3 regulars.

622
00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:26.940
I think it's much more satisfying to go, well, get rid of one of

623
00:31:26.940 --> 00:31:29.880
them rather than go, and then we have to keep cutting back to that

624
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.599
bit where Nardol is stuck in a tunnel with a frightened young

625
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.200
British soldier who he teaches to be brave or something.

626
00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:38.099
Yeah, it would be okay.

627
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:39.960
But, you know, you don't you don't need it, you know.

628
00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:44.400
No, assembling an Android in the tires or something, perhaps.

629
00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:45.900
Yeah, an Android vibrator.

630
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:46.500
Yeah, yeah.

631
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:47.579
Exactly. right.

632
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:51.599
Or Barbara's fixing a hemline or something like that, which always

633
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:52.140
made more sense.

634
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.460
I mean, I actually also like the idea of getting rid of the

635
00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:00.059
Tartars for the sake of it seeming like a 60s story.

636
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:03.299
Which is a very 60s and still terrifying thing to do.

637
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:03.720
Yeah.

638
00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:04.259
Yeah.

639
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.440
And they sell that slightly, don't they?

640
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:11.099
There is a little moment where you, the doctor kind of throws away

641
00:32:11.099 --> 00:32:15.000
telling Bill that we're stuck on Mars for the time being, and he

642
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:17.700
kind of is slightly embarrassed and funny, it doesn't matter.

643
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.799
It's terribly good.

644
00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:21.180
It is terribly good.

645
00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:37.019
I can just watch Peter Capaldi all day.

646
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:38.220
Yeah, he's brilliant.

647
00:32:38.220 --> 00:32:39.420
He's fantastic, so too.

648
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:43.980
Can I quietly say, this is my favourite season of the new series

649
00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:45.359
and watching it again.

650
00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:48.000
It's one of those ones where I liked it so much I didn't go back

651
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.160
to watch it in that funny sort of way.

652
00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:53.460
And watching it again for the podcast.

653
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:57.299
It is as, well, it feels like a 70s, 60s proper.

654
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.579
It feels like they're making Doctor Who in the way that they

655
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:00.960
remember Doctor Who to be.

656
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:04.500
But with all the new wised up ways of doing it.

657
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:08.160
And Bill is probably my favourite other person in the TARDIS.

658
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:11.700
I mean, we've compared this to the per year in the sense that it

659
00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:15.299
has a premise in a way that Doctor Who, you know, has a very light

660
00:33:15.299 --> 00:33:15.900
premise.

661
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:19.500
It's just we go from place to place to place, but here there's

662
00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:20.519
kind of a through line.

663
00:33:20.579 --> 00:33:22.200
There's a story, something is happening.

664
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:24.900
This is a stage of the doctor's life.

665
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:28.559
And it just gives everything a little bit more of a shape.

666
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:33.359
And I just think those interactions between the doctor and Bill

667
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:37.440
and Nardol and the kind of shifting relationship among them all

668
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:37.980
and stuff.

669
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:40.619
I just think works terrifically well.

670
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.059
And so maybe these last couple of episodes now that we have the

671
00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:46.859
Monk trilogy out of the way.

672
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:50.819
We just get 2 sort of solid standalone episodes that tell good

673
00:33:50.819 --> 00:33:53.940
stories and show what this version of Doctor Who can do.

674
00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:58.740
Yes, they show the relationships and that's one of the things that

675
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:03.000
you know, us fans of a certain age enjoy from the 70s, Doctor Who

676
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.880
in particular, you know, the perch we are at, are those small

677
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.639
moments in the relationships, and that's what I enjoy the most

678
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:12.480
which is why I enjoy this so much. think that is why I love it so

679
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:12.719
much.

680
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:16.380
It's the characterisation and the understanding of the time it

681
00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:20.639
takes, even in a show like this where people are given so little

682
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:20.880
time.

683
00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:25.320
I'm interested in your take as people who watch this, dare I say

684
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:25.980
constantly.

685
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:29.519
Do you feel there's a tonal difference in this season from what's

686
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:30.480
come before?

687
00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:33.960
And I really mean in them, the weight that minor characters are

688
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:38.579
given to flower and explore and that to me is what makes Doctor

689
00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:39.480
Who really interesting?

690
00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:42.780
And I'm thinking back to vara on arc in space, and I'm thinking

691
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:49.079
back to those little moments in the Aztec courtyard when Billy has

692
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.239
a cup of cocoa and the world almost changes.

693
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:54.179
It's just those little things that this season seems to get right

694
00:34:54.179 --> 00:34:54.539
again.

695
00:34:54.659 --> 00:34:56.280
That's true.

696
00:34:56.340 --> 00:35:00.539
And I think in this story as well, you know, but even the, all the

697
00:35:00.539 --> 00:35:03.780
soldiers have, you get attached to different soldiers, like I was

698
00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:07.260
really heartbroken that nibs got killed, you know?

699
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:12.059
And that, and that, the way they shoot the death of the soldiers

700
00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:16.500
like, it's a nod back to, you know, the guns from Peladin and that

701
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:18.780
you know, when the Ice Warriors do that, you know, that effect

702
00:35:18.780 --> 00:35:21.119
they have in the mirror.

703
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:25.079
But this time they take it that one step further so that because

704
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:28.199
we've got the technology, the, you know, in the ball.

705
00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:30.000
It's horrific.

706
00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:33.599
It's something that I think that the show does really well when it

707
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:37.920
comes back in 2005, is that it gives each alien different ways of

708
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:38.940
killing people.

709
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:41.519
You know, the sicker acts, have the whips that turn people into

710
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.699
skeletons and, you know, you've got the reverse video thing that

711
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:49.019
the Daleks do and you've got Cyberman doing the electricity thing

712
00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:51.960
initially and then the guns and like all of that stuff.

713
00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:56.460
We had the zygons last year turning people into tumbleweeds.

714
00:35:56.460 --> 00:36:00.719
And so I think that that's a fun thing and that's a cool thing for

715
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:01.260
the kids.

716
00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:03.059
Like, I know that sounds pretty grim.

717
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:06.480
And the other thing, of course, that I did initially too was have

718
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.300
very distinctive spaceships for all of the aliens as well.

719
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.500
And I just know that 10 year old me would have been absolutely all

720
00:36:13.500 --> 00:36:13.980
over that.

721
00:36:14.340 --> 00:36:18.179
And I think that it's doing that here.

722
00:36:18.179 --> 00:36:19.619
And I think that's genius.

723
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.159
There's only so many times I can be interested in people being

724
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:25.679
shot with a ray gun and falling over.

725
00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:29.400
This is much better than that, I think.

726
00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:32.820
And it is just ridiculous enough.

727
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.880
Like, notice when Vinny dies, we don't have to look at it.

728
00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:40.440
We just see the weird animated shadow against the wall because I

729
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:42.900
think that that would have been a little bit too much after he'd

730
00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:47.219
been talking about his fiance.

731
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.519
I mean, he was a goner once he started talking about his fiance in

732
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:51.659
the church, wasn't he?

733
00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:53.760
I never told somebody about your girl back home.

734
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:56.519
It's fateful.

735
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.119
Yeah, that was, you know, that was awful.

736
00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:02.519
Like, as soon as he said that, I thought, oh, I'm not.

737
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:06.719
Very Ben Elton blackout of season 4 months there, aren't they?

738
00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:07.500
Yes, yes.

739
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:09.360
But that's what I that's what I like about this.

740
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.420
Like it's those things that we remember from our youth.

741
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.619
Like that, as soon as that happens, you know that, I don't call it

742
00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:18.599
a cliche, but you know, oh my goodness, that's going to happen.

743
00:37:18.659 --> 00:37:20.159
You know, he's not going to survive.

744
00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:23.820
And then, you know, you've got the villain of the piece.

745
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.699
The incredibly beautiful.

746
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:27.599
Oh my god.

747
00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.179
I'm sorry, I'm putting all my cards on the table.

748
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:36.420
That man is just gorgeous and I'm blonde haired, but I find quite

749
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:38.940
alluring any bad boy that's got dark hair.

750
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:40.380
And in this episode.

751
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:40.980
I'm sorry.

752
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:44.460
In this episode, I was just, he is so horrible, but I'm just

753
00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:47.340
totally drawn to him. a card.

754
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:48.840
He's a cat.

755
00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:52.139
I know, totally, and I'm...

756
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.599
That's what I want.

757
00:37:54.659 --> 00:37:59.940
But I wish...

758
00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:02.280
He's absurdly handsome, isn't he?

759
00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:04.800
Ben Kingsley's son.

760
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:06.539
Yes, yeah, yeah.

761
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:07.559
Yeah.

762
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:09.659
Ridiculously ridiculously handsome.

763
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:11.940
And I do, like, the moustache.

764
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.719
You know, this is prior to the return of moustaches 2017.

765
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:17.519
This is pre-moustache.

766
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:19.679
And this being the British Army.

767
00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:23.280
There are a lot of moustaches of various kinds and a varying

768
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.320
quality among the guest cast.

769
00:38:25.739 --> 00:38:28.440
But that one is, that's brilliant.

770
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.519
But he's brilliant.

771
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:30.360
I just it's brilliant.

772
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:32.699
I also like the way when we 1st meet him and he takes his helmet

773
00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:35.760
off that he, the 1st thing we see him do is sort of do his hair.

774
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.039
It's a beautiful touch.

775
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:42.119
And he does that sort of upperclass tweet thing, the sort of, oh

776
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:43.980
you know, I didn't know you would be here.

777
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:46.860
You know, like he does a sort of comedy accent, like he's got that

778
00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:52.619
sort of very, very clipped accent, whereas God's acre is much more

779
00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:55.800
relaxed, I mean, but he's unshaven.

780
00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:59.579
He's got also a pretty impressive moustache, but he's a little bit

781
00:38:59.579 --> 00:39:02.519
more relaxed and a little bit more chill.

782
00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:07.019
And I guess like the relationship between them is interesting

783
00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:07.619
isn't it?

784
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:11.760
Well, it is because you expect it to be one way and then it slowly

785
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.539
reveals itself throughout the episode and I really love that as

786
00:39:15.539 --> 00:39:15.780
well.

787
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:19.980
Well, I think what's interesting about it is that it's God's Acre

788
00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:23.940
who gives the doctor a sympathetic hearing and who wants to stop

789
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:28.380
conflict from breaking out between his people and the ice warriors

790
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:33.599
and that's the point at which catch love says no, he doesn't want

791
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:34.380
to do peace.

792
00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:38.880
He wants to take revenge and escalate because he just thinks the

793
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:43.440
British army can cope with anything, even upright crocodiles, which

794
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:45.059
is an anagram of terraleptyl.

795
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.260
I don't think many people know that.

796
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:47.760
No, it's not.

797
00:39:50.579 --> 00:39:53.760
And so, like, that's terribly good.

798
00:39:53.820 --> 00:40:00.059
And I do like God's Acre as a character, but I do have to say that

799
00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:04.079
I'm not sure what's going on at the end in that conversation with

800
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:04.679
the Queen.

801
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:09.659
And we clearly have to get from a point where he rejects the

802
00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:15.119
British Army as an idea or British Empire as an ideal and decides

803
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:15.960
to serve her.

804
00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:21.659
But I just don't quite get the mechanics of that conversation that

805
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:22.079
happens.

806
00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:26.820
Yes, you need him to have a redemption, but you don't want him to

807
00:40:26.820 --> 00:40:27.780
die.

808
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:31.260
And so it's sort of contorted to be.

809
00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:33.239
I'm glad you said, by the way, I'm glad you invoked the

810
00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:36.840
Tereleptils because I was personally very pleased to see Anthony

811
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:41.280
Kalf returned to Doctor Who because the visitation was his 1st

812
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:42.480
television, I think.

813
00:40:42.539 --> 00:40:44.760
Oh, and he very kindly.

814
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.880
I'd written to him to ask him for an interview because I thought

815
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.460
well, he'll be interesting to talk to from the visitation, not

816
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:52.619
because he's in it much, but because he's had this great career

817
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:53.099
since.

818
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:55.860
And to my surprise, he agreed, and he was such a good

819
00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:57.119
interviewee.

820
00:40:57.179 --> 00:41:00.360
And then, of course, he appeared in Doctor Again, subsequent to my

821
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.500
interviewing him.

822
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.880
And so it's, I think it's nice that somebody who had appeared in

823
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:08.699
Doctor Early in his career, but didn't go, oh, I did that ages ago

824
00:41:08.699 --> 00:41:11.159
I'm not going to talk to anybody about it, was still perfectly

825
00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:13.260
happy to be, Yeah, I was in Doc 2.

826
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:14.099
It was my 1st job.

827
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:17.940
But, you know, and he's done so much since.

828
00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:20.699
The fact that, you know, when he returns, he's the main guest star

829
00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:23.400
and he's got a good, and he's got a nice big, big role.

830
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:26.400
And so I was, I was very pleased to see him turn up again.

831
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:29.699
And he's really good because he has, you can see he's been in

832
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:30.239
makeup a bit.

833
00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:33.480
They given him the sort of bloodshot, you know, under the eyes and

834
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:36.539
and he, you know, he looks like he's been through it.

835
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:40.920
And I love a story of sort of redemption of a supposed coward.

836
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:44.159
But that meant I did worry that he was not long for this world

837
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:48.840
because such people usually die in a blaze of glory, but they

838
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:51.840
either couldn't bring themselves to do that or they needed him for

839
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:52.860
that end scene.

840
00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:58.019
But yeah, I can see why the contortions are perhaps a step too far

841
00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:02.519
for you in terms of we need them there for our comfort rather than

842
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:06.599
for any sort of sort of logistical progression.

843
00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:11.340
I mean, I wonder whether the mere fact that he stands up against

844
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:15.719
catch love and shoots him, like that kind of redeems him from the

845
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:17.219
charge of cowardice.

846
00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:21.000
But that doesn't seem to be enough to impress the queen and she

847
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.480
has to go on tormenting him in all sorts of ways for, you know, a

848
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:26.940
few minutes before that sort of conversation ends.

849
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.199
And I just wasn't quite sure what the mechanics were of all of

850
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:31.380
that.

851
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.900
It also occurs to me that we don't know what happens to them.

852
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:34.860
Do they stay on?

853
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:38.159
Do they go and join the EU, the space EU?

854
00:42:38.219 --> 00:42:39.539
Do they go back home?

855
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:40.500
I'm not sure.

856
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.380
They could have brought one of them to Peladon, couldn't they?

857
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:46.260
to sort of to say, look, we're all right.

858
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:49.380
And it's, because you said you didn't like, you know, you're not

859
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:52.079
wild about the ice Warriors because they're, because they're

860
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:55.800
basically, you know, reptile men and I totally get that.

861
00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:59.820
The thing, though, that I think rescues them in terms of classic

862
00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:03.539
series monsters, is I remember that twist in Curse of Peladon

863
00:43:03.539 --> 00:43:06.960
where actually this week, the ones that you think are the baddest

864
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:09.119
and crucially the doctor thinks the baddest, are actually the

865
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:09.539
good.

866
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:12.420
I remember being a kid thinking that was the most sophisticated

867
00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:13.980
thing ever.

868
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:18.300
And I, and I do, I do like that element of them and what they, what

869
00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:23.159
they stand for. more so than actually the what they are, which, as

870
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:26.760
you say, is big bulky lizard men. you know, there's they're green

871
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:28.199
cybermen really, you know.

872
00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:28.920
Yeah.

873
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:32.940
Like, you know, given that Pat Troutton was shooting them with a

874
00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:37.260
big gun, like, you know, in the previous story, it is a striking

875
00:43:37.260 --> 00:43:41.219
change and it is actually a pretty surprising twist for Doctor Who

876
00:43:41.219 --> 00:43:45.599
which has a very kind of essentialist idea of what monsters are

877
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:47.340
sort of generally speaking.

878
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:49.920
And so that is why they work.

879
00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:52.920
And that's, I think, why they work here because you have Friday

880
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:57.239
because you have different people, 2 different people, you know

881
00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.579
with different goals and priorities and things.

882
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:02.099
And I think that's what makes them work.

883
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:07.019
I like to think that there are people from the British Army, from

884
00:44:07.019 --> 00:44:10.199
the Victorian era scattered throughout space.

885
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:15.300
You know, space during the Victorian era, to be fair, but forming

886
00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:16.800
part of the Galactic Federation.

887
00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:17.639
I think that's awesome.

888
00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:18.900
Oh I agree.

889
00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:20.880
That's what I think.

890
00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:24.059
Maybe blore is descended from them.

891
00:44:24.179 --> 00:44:25.739
Law, maybe.

892
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:29.460
Nathan.

893
00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:49.019
So, we've got Missy for just the very end, and, I mean, I'm super

894
00:44:49.019 --> 00:44:52.500
happy to see Michelle Gomez in anything, I think she's absolutely

895
00:44:52.500 --> 00:44:59.340
superb, and I think that she may be my favourite version of the

896
00:44:59.340 --> 00:44:59.940
master.

897
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:08.519
And one of the reasons for that is that I believe that her and the

898
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:11.099
doctor are friends.

899
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.940
And so here, this striking moment at the end.

900
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:16.380
And we had a little hint of it.

901
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.179
I've just been thinking about extremists, and there's a moment

902
00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:27.239
where Missy actually expresses sympathy for the doctor at the

903
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:30.960
death of River, and she does it without being arch, she's being

904
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:32.159
completely sincere.

905
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:35.099
I think that she's she feels sorry for him.

906
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:41.460
And here, we end with the 2 of them just facing one another and

907
00:45:41.460 --> 00:45:44.039
Missy saying, are you all right?

908
00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:46.739
You know, I want to know that you're all right.

909
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:51.599
And I think Stephen Moffat does a great job this season on the

910
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:53.699
redemption of Missy.

911
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.039
And so I buy this.

912
00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:57.119
I thought it was really good.

913
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:59.460
It's totally unexpected.

914
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:04.139
You know, it harks back to the idea that the Delgado master was

915
00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:09.059
going to perish saving the doctor in the original, you know, what

916
00:46:09.059 --> 00:46:12.599
became planets of spiders, you know, which becomes one of those

917
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:14.340
you know, great legendary.

918
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.039
It was going to happen, but it never happened sort of moments of

919
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:19.139
Doctor Who, which would have been pivotal, really.

920
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.860
Or would it, would they have just brought them back anyway because

921
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:25.380
it's a show that brings people back from the dead if it wants to.

922
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:28.619
So it has its seeds in something that never happened curiously.

923
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.920
A doctor who sometimes has a habit of doing that, of going, yeah

924
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.380
isn't that based on something that they didn't do, though, but we

925
00:46:34.380 --> 00:46:35.880
kind of absorbed.

926
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:41.760
And I found it a surprising development, but one that really suits

927
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:46.619
Michelle Gomez's characterisation because she does for all the

928
00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:47.579
sort of wild.

929
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:51.300
She's definitely the craziest, most eccentric performer to have

930
00:46:51.300 --> 00:46:52.860
ever played the master.

931
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:57.360
So it needs that sort of underscore of pathos to stop it being too

932
00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.139
zany.

933
00:46:58.139 --> 00:46:59.880
And she's always had had that.

934
00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:02.940
And so to then channel that into something with the doctor and

935
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:07.800
make that sort of part of the season's arc or running story.

936
00:47:07.860 --> 00:47:11.639
And I love what they do with the 2 masters at the end of the

937
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:15.659
season and that and that end that they have that should have been

938
00:47:15.659 --> 00:47:16.980
let to lie for a bit.

939
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:21.420
I feel, really wasn't reading the room to then bring the master

940
00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:22.500
back so quickly.

941
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:26.699
And that's no disrespect to Sasha Duan, who I think is excellent.

942
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.880
I just think, oh, come on, let that just let that lie a little

943
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:30.119
bit.

944
00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:34.980
But I, I, yeah, no, I, I, I think it's a, it's not, it's not an

945
00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:37.260
element I think of when I think of this story, particularly

946
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:40.079
because it's the, it's the sort of bookend and it's just, it's

947
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:41.519
just fitting it in with the rest of the season.

948
00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:45.179
But I think it's a great and it's such a sort of strangely

949
00:47:45.179 --> 00:47:48.599
touching ending when the story's been about something else.

950
00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:51.900
But also, my partner is an actor.

951
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:55.139
And she says, we always do this thing.

952
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:58.199
Whereas if somebody's in an episode of something, even as a dead

953
00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:01.559
body or something, we always look at each other and go, Epi

954
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:04.920
because, you know, if you're an actor, you get you usually get

955
00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:07.079
paid for the episode, whether you're in for one day or 10.

956
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.260
So we always, it's always a bit of a bonus if you, you know, if

957
00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:13.380
what Michelle Gomez does, she does a little bit of ADR when

958
00:48:13.380 --> 00:48:16.139
Nardal's knocking on the door and then she's in that one TARD

959
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:18.000
scene. you go, oh, Ep fee for that.

960
00:48:18.059 --> 00:48:21.420
That was a nice, that was a nice month. next week to do the same

961
00:48:21.420 --> 00:48:21.659
thing.

962
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:22.199
I think.

963
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:22.980
Yeah, yeah.

964
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:24.059
No, I think it's great.

965
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:25.260
I think it's great that she's there.

966
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:25.920
I think it's great.

967
00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:29.639
You know, as you said, you don't think of her in this episode.

968
00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:32.639
So it's a nice little, I don't want to say twist, but it's just

969
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:34.920
there at the end when it suddenly drops in and you kind of, oh.

970
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:38.280
And it just adds a little flavour.

971
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:43.980
She's the high point of drama and fear in every episode that

972
00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:46.860
Stephen Moffett's costume because she's the dangerous point.

973
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:48.539
You do not know what she's going to do next.

974
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.480
The character will surprise you always.

975
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:56.519
Well, but there's also, and it's, and I did find myself, even

976
00:48:56.519 --> 00:49:00.539
though I'd seen the episode before, being worried about Nardole as

977
00:49:00.539 --> 00:49:03.840
well, because he's such an innocent, and he's going to try and, and

978
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.539
you go, but I actually wouldn't put it past her to kill it.

979
00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:08.400
She's pretty horrible.

980
00:49:08.579 --> 00:49:12.900
And so, you know, he is, he is offscreen for most of it.

981
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:16.920
But part of you is like, is she going to use this opportunity to

982
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:21.360
you know, use the weaker of the 3 of the TARDIS crew to, as she

983
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:23.880
does, she gets him into the TARDIS, but could, you know, you

984
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:27.059
wouldn't put it past it to very gently and coyly persuade him to

985
00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:29.039
open the door and then just kill him immediately.

986
00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:34.559
And that's a testament to the unpredictability of the

987
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.800
characterisation that she's given it, that to do something

988
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:42.239
suddenly momentarily very, very cruel, is always an option.

989
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:45.539
And I think that's, that's a testament to even though they've

990
00:49:45.539 --> 00:49:48.780
tried to humanise her, even though she's, you know, she's quirky

991
00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:49.440
and she's funny.

992
00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:51.599
She is dangerous.

993
00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:55.860
And that's a beautiful, a really useful tool in your armoury when

994
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:57.239
you're putting a series like this together.

995
00:49:57.300 --> 00:50:00.599
And the dark bits of us really want her to do it.

996
00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:03.000
Even just in the mind.

997
00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:06.360
Even though you know he can Makano him back together again.

998
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:34.199
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

999
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:38.639
We'll be back next week to learn where the crow got its core in

1000
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:40.079
the Eaters of Light.

1001
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:44.340
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1002
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:48.119
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1003
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:51.239
com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to

1004
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:55.619
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1005
00:50:55.619 --> 00:50:59.880
500 year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1006
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:02.639
Toby, where can people find you?

1007
00:51:02.699 --> 00:51:08.280
Uh, well, I'm on, I have a website, TobyHeydoke.com, but I do some

1008
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.059
podcasts called Toby Hedooks, time travels, which can be found in

1009
00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:14.940
all the usual podcast distributors.

1010
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.800
I'd keep an eye out as we're talking about Mark Gatis for my book

1011
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:23.039
the 1st of my books about Quatermass, which it should be being

1012
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:25.920
announced exactly when it's coming out very soon.

1013
00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:30.960
Until next time, try and remember not to leave your keys in the

1014
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:31.679
ignition.

1015
00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:34.139
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1016
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:35.639
See you soon.

1017
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:36.840
And good then.

1018
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:48.000
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd BLB, Nathan

1019
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:50.039
Bottomley, Toby Hadoke, and Richard Stone.

1020
00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:52.320
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1021
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:55.739
This episode, Blaze of Glory, was recorded on the 20th of October

1022
00:51:55.739 --> 00:51:58.559
2024, and released on the 10th of November.

1023
00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:05.280
If any of you know Ferdinand Kingsley's barber, please feel free

1024
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.280
to pass on my contact details and ask him to get in touch.

1025
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:10.860
Been thinking about him quite a lot lately.

1026
00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:20.880
All right, I think we wind up.

1027
00:52:20.940 --> 00:52:21.360
Do you think?

1028
00:52:21.420 --> 00:52:23.099
Yeah, no, that's good. have anything more?

1029
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:23.639
Yeah.

1030
00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:25.320
That was, yeah, I think that was good.

1031
00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:26.099
Brilliant.

1032
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:26.760
Brilliant. you.

1033
00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:27.179
Perfect.

1034
00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:28.320
Okay, thank you very much.

1035
00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:29.760
Thank you.

1036
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:35.460
So, uh, let me just let me just drop a thing.

1037
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.099
So we've done the outro, so that's all good.

1038
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:39.000
All that.

1039
00:52:39.059 --> 00:52:41.760
Did Toby get to mention any of the things he wanted to plug?

1040
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:42.300
Yes.

1041
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:42.719
Yep.

1042
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:51.179
So, Toby, I just dropped my email address into the chat, and you

1043
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:57.539
can send that to me on Dropbox or Google Drive or WeTransfer or

1044
00:52:57.539 --> 00:52:58.860
Okidek.

1045
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:03.239
Is that one of those are things that you're...

1046
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:04.800
Yeah, yeah, all of I probably do.

1047
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:06.179
We transfer. isn't it?

1048
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:06.900
Yeah, yeah.

1049
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:07.800
Okay, brilliant.

1050
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:08.340
That's perfect.

1051
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:09.780
And then I've got us here.

1052
00:53:10.019 --> 00:53:13.440
Sing severally and in one track.

1053
00:53:13.500 --> 00:53:14.940
So that should be good.

1054
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:17.519
It was lovely chatting to you, Toby.

1055
00:53:17.579 --> 00:53:19.380
Yeah, that was really great Well, thanks, thank you.

1056
00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:20.099
Thanks for having me.

1057
00:53:20.579 --> 00:53:22.320
Thanks for asking.

1058
00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:24.420
Sorry to get you up so early.

1059
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:27.059
Oh, no, it's fine.