Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the
only Doctor Who podcast with fond memories of those happy days
when space guns used mirror on.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Todd.
I'm Toby, and I'm the nostalgic hemispherical single entendre.
Shrieking in the last moments.
I don't know about you.
I got very excited.
Well, it's 1881 and a small group of British soldiers are hoping
to extend the Empire's sovereign reach into new territory, unaware
that they will soon encounter a queen, perhaps even more scaly and
terrifying than their own.
Let's see how they get on as we discuss Empress of Mars.
All right, Toby, how do you feel about Mark Gatis as a Doctor Who
writer over the last 10 seasons?
Well, I mean, full disclosure, I know Mark a little bit.
So, um, you know, I, I, I obviously having a, an affinity for him
as a person, but as a writer, he was sort of the obvious one
wasn't he?
When it when it came back.
It was, well, they're definitely going to get that guy because the
League of Gentlemen were riding very high.
I think what Mark does particularly well is the word nostalgia has
already been used.
He writes very well.
He evokes a sort of literary style that works particularly well
with Doctor Who.
You know, he's got a, he's got an affection for sort of, what do
we call it, Victoriana or and Gothic and all of that.
And that comes into play with this one with the way that the
soldiers are sort of written.
He's got a great ear for all of that.
And it's sort of Robert Holmes is that you go, well, I wonder if
some of this is based more on our literary, the literary sources
that we have for this sort of stuff rather than historical
accuracy.
I don't have a problem with that at all.
I mean, the literary things are there for a reason and they're
comforting.
But I do wonder, and I'll be interested as we discuss that.
When you look back over all of his episodes of Doctor Who, which
all have ingredients that should make for a classic, why none of
his episodes are really considered, the classic, you know, he
never wins the season poll, for example, and I'm curious as to why
that is.
Um, you know, they all contain stuff that should be tailored for
me, particularly.
I mean, the idiot's lantern is Doctor Who meets Crater Mass.
And yet that's not my favourite story of that season.
So why is that?
Has he been let down by execution?
I also don't dislike any of the stories.
So I'm curious as to why what could be a potentially heady
cocktail that they're never the episodes that sort of run away
with the season polls or when we listen to, you know, podcasts
that pick the classics of the season or whatever, they never seem
to come at top with the with the possible exception.
Uh, of uh, um, Oh, the one with Diana Rigg, what's it called?
There's, I god say, the Scarlet, the Scarlet Death, but it's, the
Crimson horror, the Scarlet Death, the Crimson horror.
I knew it was something that.
I'm getting very old.
It's very early where I am.
By the way, everybody else in this podcast has been up all day and
probably had, you know, their brains have had time to warm up.
I've been buried in my Martian cave and woken up, especially to do
this.
So apologies if I break out and kill you all.
Just thinking what you're saying, Toby, and I was thinking this as
well, exactly the same thing we've talked about ourselves here.
Could it just be longevity?
Is he the Edwardian pop lit version of the new series in that Mac
Hulk needed really sex episodes to flesh out his characters?
And for me, with Mark Gatis?
It's I love what he does.
I love the Lucifer box series if you've read those that he did.
And he obviously loves, we can talk about the antecedents in a
bit.
But it's characterisation and it's the secondary and tertiary
characters and then the little revelations about them.
It's that glorious girl in the war room, pushing the little timber
Spitfires around, and you know her backstory is there on the
cutting room floor.
And it's the same with the kernel here and the flighty captain and
you know, there's something going on there.
And then there's the marks of the hangman's noose on his neck.
I really want to know about these characters and I know Marcus put
all of this in.
I just feel he's limited by the 21st century.
I think sometimes that's the case.
I mean, certainly his very early stuff does seem to be trying to
cram 4 parts into 45 minutes and that's doable.
I mean, that's not a thing that you can't do given the way that TV
works now.
But here I thought that there was just enough incident for 45
minutes.
And it seems to me that when he's writing for the Moffat era, he
pushes himself a bit and does some things that are not necessarily
sort of central to his wheelhouse.
Here, though, he's doing something that's very him.
And I think he has just enough happening to give us, you know, a
chance to understand the interplay between the characters and what
everyone sort of wants and needs.
And as a result, I think you get something that's just sort of a
crackingly good story.
Like, I think it's just terrifically fun and enjoyable and it
moves at a clip.
What do you think, Todd?
Well, I agree.
I really enjoy this one and I mean, I enjoy their crimson horror
horror too.
And most of his, but for me, Crimson Horror, and this one are 2 of
the standouts, and I really did enjoy this, and I liked all the
different characters in it, and I also liked the fact that we got
to spend time with Bill and the doctor, you know, and he paired it
back or for whatever reasons, you know, Nardo's not in it very
much, and I think at this point in the season, it's good just to
see the Bill Doctor Dynamic.
So there are all sorts of weird rumours around the place, but one
of them was that he had wanted to do a paladon story and had
decided that it was probably a bit too much to set that up in 45
minutes.
And so he's all but done a paladon story in some senses.
I mean, it's definitely a prequel to the Peladon stories.
It sounds.
Almost a minor strike.
And I guess in a sort of Britain where, what, have we just had
Teresa May sort of elected is that, I think that might be what's
what's just happening.
Brexit hasn't quite happened yet, but we do have the doctor
telling the empress to not cling on to a past, but instead to
fight for a future and things.
And I know that Gatas stuff isn't sort of necessarily intensely
political, although politics isn't absent from any of her.
But there's definitely stuff there, isn't it?
I mean, Peladon was entering the EU in the 1970s and now here we
are at the end of all of that and kind of weirdly at the beginning
of it as well.
Well, it's interesting, isn't it, that a writer that revels in, you
know, nostalgia or in, you know, who calls back very
affectionately to those times of empire, which we now have a very
complicated relationship with, but it's almost de riguer to just
dismiss the empire out of hand.
And yet there are elements of it that if you, you know, if you
grew up in the time that a lot of us did, we're comforted by the
sort of iconography and the little bits of, you know, slightly.
I love in this the, you know, the dinner bell and everyone sitting
around and having their tea, which is bananas and yet it's
strangely comforting at the same time.
So he has this curious relationship with that that I think then, if
you want to be political about it, speaks to why we look to the
past to give us our comfort as we stride towards the future, you
know, which sounds like it's a paradoxical way to behave, you
know.
It's actually sort of terribly fun, isn't it?
I think that 70s Doctor Who, you know, let's compare it to the
Paladon stories because that's clearly what we're kind of going
for.
We have the sort of ice warriors that we have there that are kind
of not out and out villains, you know, they're ambivalent or
ambiguous.
You know, they could go either way.
There are good people and bad people and all of that.
But in 70s, Doctor Who, you could never have had people from the
19th century invading Mars.
Like, that's just not something that 70s Doctor Who could ever
ever have thought of doing.
And what they would have done instead is what they actually did
which is have the Earth Empire.
Not because it was unthought of because it was too close to the
50s and 60s films.
You know, I'm trying to think of the ones that, um, Okay, Laurie
Johnson composed the Avengers composer, uh, 1st man in the moon.
Anyway, he did the score for that.
It was still very much clunky and a little bit Disney in the 70s
to put anyone on the with Sergeant Pepper's jacket and a Dick Van
Dyke accent.
It was just a little bit too close.
What do you think, Toby?
Well, I hadn't thought of it in that way because I do think that
that's one of the big appeals of this episode is that it's because
I always say that Doctor Who doesn't travel in time so much as
travel in genre and that what the different episodes give us is a
different feel and one of the beauties of being a fan is, you can
go, what sort of story am I in the mood for, you know, that evokes
which particular genre in a way?
And this one does a thing that obviously is a trademark of Mark
Gatis, but that feels sort of fresh, even though again, seemingly
contradictory, it's nostalgic, is to have that kind of H.G. Wells
Jules Verne, sort of feel about it, is that the intrepid
adventurers are wearing for us now, the past as the future.
So I love those.
I love Anthony Calf's spacesuit in the last scene and the fact
that they so it's Victorian men on Mars kind of thing.
And that's what the first, I think that's what you're alluding to
wasn't it?
The 1st men on the moon is and Mark has done a version of that
where people are dressed in.
It's not cyberpunk, but it's that kind of thing, you know, it's
the future made of the past, which is a beautifully Doctor Who
thing.
Because again, I always think Doctor Who is about dissonance.
It's about a clash of styles.
It's about a rackety police box in front of a futuristic vista.
So a spacesuit made out of Victoriana.
Um, you know, men in those uniforms, but on Mars is a really
doctor who he thing and works now.
I hadn't thought about why they maybe didn't do that in the 70s.
I think that's a, I think that's a good call.
And they were too busy being modern and fresh and exciting and
there was already too much going on with the 3 day week and
everything else to talk about.
I mean, Doctor Who takes a while to kind of discover all of the
things that it can do, and the new series discovers some things
that Doctor Who can do that weren't available, I think, to the old
series.
And it, I mean, it's not till series 10 that we get aliens
involved in Earth's past.
We've kind of more or less abandoned going to the past at all
really, in most of the 70s because of a kind of feeling that the, I
don't know, that the historicals were old-fashioned or something
like that, and we hadn't thought of a way of making them work.
So I think it isn't the sort of thing that they would do, but it
is the sort of thing that's in the air, isn't it?
You've got Edgar Rice Burrows, you know, writing in the early 20th
century.
Well, I was going to say John Carter.
Exactly, right.
Exactly this.
And then you've got a try to haggard.
I mean, this is she, not the Kenneth Williams version, which was
called Get Her.
Julian and Sandy did actually do a version of this.
Yes, yes, back in the day.
It's absolutely all of the stuff that Mark adores.
Yeah.
And that version of the 1st man in the moon, which is kind of
perhaps alluded to here, in a sense, is already out there.
He's made it by this point.
I don't know if any of you have seen it.
Have you seen it?
at time?
So it's Rory Kinnear and Mark Gaitis.
And it's set on the day that people land on the moon in 1969 and
it tells the story of a trip to the moon decades earlier that Rory
Kinnear's character had done.
And that framing story is all completely gated.
It doesn't come from the H.G. Wells novel, obviously, because it's
too late for that.
Um, so this is a very sort of gaitacy thing and I think, you know
it seems like the sort of thing that Doctor Who should obviously
be doing.
It's something we can do now because we've got the CGI, like all
of that stuff on Mars looks absolutely brilliant.
It really does.
But it is also Doctor Who in cave sets, isn't it?
Exactly. what we grew up with and what we love.
Yeah, so we're, he's mining our love of that, but also to building
on the law of the ice warriors as well by having the queen, you
know, without really contradicting the past.
Like I didn't really like Cold War because I just didn't buy that
they were these really skinny aliens in armour, whereas he doesn't
touch on this here.
It doesn't go back to how that episode and how that was done.
I like it when we revisit the law of Doctor Who, but add something
new and interesting.
So she's got a helmet that looks a little bit like the ice lords
from the sort of 70s.
Well, from, you know, from the original things.
I have to put my cards on the table and say, I don't really like
the Ice Warriors very much.
I think, am I, you know, it's clear why they kept turning up
because we have the big fibreglass things in storage and it won't
cost that much to dust them off and kind of amend them a bit.
But they are just green lizard people from Mars and there's a
sense in which you kind of think we could perhaps have thought of
something a little bit more imaginative than that.
I think the ice Warriors themselves, you know, when they have the
mismatched bodies with the big heads and all that sort of thing.
You just, you can't help, but, you know, love them and laugh at
the same time.
I mean, I like the, I like the lords like Azaxir and all that sort
of thing and it's good having both Friday and and what's her
name?
Iraxa.
It's good having both of them here to be the voice of the Ice
Warriors and also then having the 2 women, you know, boy.
Now, come on, we haven't predicated the big reveal the curtain
parting.
We never saw Alpha Centauri's curtains part.
Yes, we do.
That's when the hexapod things come out.
But did anyone else think when they were 1st watching this, and
this is especially for Toby, that it was Katie doing the voice.
I really thought it was Katie doing the voice.
And of course, she's done it for Brig finished.
She's done a Martian Empress.
I think before this went out.
Well, I didn't I didn't wonder if it was Katie.
My initial thought because I knew that Zan was still around was, oh
I do hope that's who I think it is, because I'm, you know, I'm
anybody that's listened to anything I've done. knows that I'm sort
of all about the guest actors and the people who, you know, pass
in and out of Doctor Who.
Did you squeeze?
Did you squeeze and melt because we did?
I'm not a man who squeeze, but what I did was I shuffled my
slipper slightly and my pipe got a little chew.
That's a that's a that's a squeeze.
That could have actually powered an invasion force had you done it
a lot.
No, I really thought it was Katie.
So I got a double squee when I heard his son's voice and thought
my God, they've got all the girls back.
And then I was horribly wrong, but I'm not horribly wrong because
I love the woman who plays the empress.
But I really did think it was Katie. is really good.
Like, I think the empress is pretty great.
But I do kind of wonder a little bit about.
So I think, like, I think there's some really good things going on
here, but there's a way in which I just wasn't super convinced by
what was going on with her at the end and where I wasn't quite
sure what was going on with God's Acre at the end as well.
Great names, by the way.
Yeah, yeah, catch love and God's name.
Yeah, beautiful, for goodness' sake.
That could go either way.
I think before we current, I think I misunderstood the question
because you were asking if I thought Katie was the empress, not if
I thought Katie was Alpha Centauri.
No, I definitely thought Katie was doing the voice for about half
of the performance and then I started to tweak, oh, it isn't, but
there was a little hope of my fanboy heart when this 1st went
out.
And then Isan spoke and I thought, no, I'm right.
It was Katie, because it's a son.
So there's those few seconds.
Those few little seconds.
Right, I see.
Because I could hear Katie doing Alpha Centauri as well because
she's more versatile than we think, Katie, because she's so
brilliant as Joe. You forget that actually she's a really gifted
character player.
But no, I didn't, I didn't think she was, she was the empress.
Although that would have been a nice touch, but Adele Lynch does a
great job anyway.
And obviously they've decided, unlike Cold War, where Nick Briggs
comes in and dubs the ice warrior, they've decided to let the
actors do it themselves.
And I always think that that's ultimately nicer to the actors if
you're if you're playing the part you want to be saying the
lines.
And um, and Richard Ashton, who plays Friday, is a is a fine
actor.
So it's nice that we, you know, we have him giving the performance
rather than him being.
And that's no disrespect for to the work that Nick does, but I
think in the visual medium.
If it's a monster who's moving his mouth.
You want the performance, really.
Agreed, agreed.
I mean, I think she's got some great lines.
Like, what did the pink thing sound?
And sleep no more, my worries. always good when you throw in like
the name of an episode that you've actually written previously.
I have to say in that scene, though, I was wondering how the
Empress thought the warriors who were in the cryosleep pods like
way up the top of the walls, how they were going to get down.
Look, it literally looked great.
Maybe they're like the sea devils now and they can just leap and
land without they leap.
I mean, that is really an extraordinarily great moment and a great
looking moment as well.
So we have Wayne Yip directing.
He'll go on to do resolution and he has already done the lie of
the land this year.
And I think the look that we get.
Like, we don't have a sort of big technological look.
It something that we avoid.
The gargantua looks like, sort of fairly standard technology and
perhaps something else.
But, you know, the hive doesn't look sort of crummy and
technical.
It looks really quiet, impressive, I think.
Oh yeah, I think the whole thing.
I think I think all the tunnels and everything like that looks
great.
You know, when you've got all the period costumes against that
that looks fantastic.
I love the fact that Friday is the one trying to stop this
slaughter and everything and is working, you know, with the doctor
and that's something you never see.
The original ice warriors do very much.
You know, they're just warriors, you know?
And I think that's great having that character there doing that.
And I think the fact that the queen talking to Bill, about all
these noisy men and oh, I think that she is persuaded, you know
not to kill them all.
Like you were saying your problems at the end.
Well, I mean, I think that what is good is the way that Friday, in
a way, reacts against the queen doesn't he, because the queen has
criticised him for kind of going native for, you know, being one
of their parents.
And he kind of says, no, no, that's a tactical thing, but he is
still sort of dismissed by her.
And he does want to stop her from killing everyone at the end.
And so there is that great moment where they're all kind of
emerging from the ground and Friday's emerging and we don't know
how to read that because we don't initially know that it's him.
It's just, you know, there's an ice warrior coming up behind
them.
And then we see it's him and then we realise why he's there.
And I think all of that is really good.
I think, and I don't think we would have got that.
You know, Nick Briggs is a genius at doing these voices, these
monster voices, but I do think that the performance of the actor
in this is just really great.
And sells him as a character.
And it speaks to some of the more subtle elements because this, I
think the reason this story works is that it has the, the, the
obvious stuff, you know, the, the, the juxtaposition of the, the
the empire and outer space and all of that, which works
beautifully.
But I think it has those subtle moments.
You know, the whole thing about Friday, an inverted com is going
native.
The subtle undertone of that is if we spend enough time rubbing
shoulders with each other, we get to understand each other, even
though he's not treated particularly well.
And he's got that brilliant bit, and Richard told me that he'd
worked this out with Ferdinand Kingsley.
You know, when he's clearing the plates and he just brushes up
against the one that he doesn't like the one that's the obvious
bad guy.
You know, he just sort of nudges him a bit as if, say, I don't
really like you.
And he said that they worked that out, you know, when they were
doing it.
And the director obviously liked it and favoured it and did a
close-up and included it in the edit.
So little moments like that have to go through a lot of processes
to end up in the final program, even though it's a, you know, a
split 2nd shot.
But it's lovely little bits like that.
And that echos, I think, the very clever bit at the beginning
where the doctor thinks that God's sake is going to shoot the ice
warrior because there's a monster advancing on him.
He's like, no, no, no, it's you that's the unfamiliar thing.
And that's all about we accept what is familiar and it's the old
you know, it's the old racist thing of, well, well, you know, yeah
the one that lives next door to me is all right.
It's only the ones I've never met that I don't like, you know.
And it's a sort of subtle underlying of the idea that actually we
may look and sound different in all of those things, but deep down
we can appeal to the, it's not even humanity, is it?
Because they're not, they're not human, but what, you know, the
fact that we're life forms who can coexist without killing each
other.
And I think all of that, I always like it when a story has moments
that metaphorically underline, you know, some kind of theme, some
kind of, that the writer's got some kind of idea more beyond just
telling a story.
Um, you know, that beyond just the plot, that the plot is
representative of something.
And I think this has that.
I think, you know, the character of Catch Love gets a conversation
like gets a speech where he is talking about, you know, this is
Mars, this is part of the British Empire, obviously I belong here
and he talks about how he's here to strip this place for resources
and, you know, take it over.
And there's a moment where we look at Bill, just for a 2nd who
kind of almost sort of holds her head in her hands, you know
because she's someone who is acutely aware of the history of
empire, I imagine, given her background.
And I just thought that was terrifically good.
And because of the nostalgia thing, because we enjoy the teacups
and the little tents erected in Martian caverns and all of that.
Where did they get the eggs?
The flower?
Making cakes.
It makes no sense.
They brought it with them.
But it is running out, remember, in dialogue. running out of it.
There is a proper critique, I think, of the empire.
This is the British Empire invading a place that has its own
empress, its own people, its own resources, and ordinarily we
would have made it the Earth Empire.
Here we make it, the British Empire.
And I think it is properly critiqued, that it's kind of the
opposite of Bob Holmes, where Bob Holmes is very critical of the
aesthetics of Empire.
He thinks that empire is ridiculous and that the people kind of
involved in it are, you know, there's all these sort of blowhards
and things.
We did an episode of Blake 7 called Traitor, where all of the
Federation people were kind of characterised.
It's just the most pompous and tedious sort of offices of the
British army.
But he doesn't critique it morally.
But I do think we get a proper moral critique of empire here from
gators.
And I think there's a there is a wonderful moment.
You know, we see the thing at the beginning where we see God save
the Queen on the surface of Mars, or under the ice cap of Mars, and
we briefly hear the national anthem.
The next time that we properly see it after we know what it's for
and who's created it and what's happened to them.
Murray riffs on Gustav Holtz's Mars bringer of war from the
planets.
And it's the Queen of Mars, of course, that that was for.
And that's a very moffety thing, isn't it?
The idea that there's something we think we know what it means
then we, uh, we discover what it means. what it actually means
which is very good, I think.
Clever, yeah.
So let's talk about our regulars this week.
We have an adult with us but only very briefly.
Why does the Tartars, why does the Tartars take off again?
In order to get Nardol out of the episode so that he can go and
bring Missy back for the final scene.
There doesn't seem to be any actual explanation for it in the show
does there?
Well, they're doing something naughty and they're not meant to be
there, and the TARDIS knows that it's very proprietorial granny
TARDIS this season.
Oh, maybe that's it.
But also, again, I just think Mark needs another. episode.
All of his stories need another episode.
And that's just the way he writes.
He thinks like a Victorian Edwardian adventure writer.
He wants to get in deep and he throws things in.
No, honestly, I think that's just all it is because yes, I'm
always thinking, oh, but, but, but, but then you have to suspend
that part of the, the abacus of the fanboy head.
But it was another kind of nostalgic, for me, the involvement or
otherwise of Nardal, because it reminded me of the stories of your
particularly the 60s where for whatever reason, a regular couldn't
be in it.
And so there had to be a way of, you know, if this had been in the
60s, Matt Lucas would have been entirely on film and you know, and
sort of and played in.
And I, as somebody that likes the mechanics of the way that the
show is put together.
I think Matt Lucas was always going to be unavailable for this
episode, wasn't he?
So they had to, they had to come up with a way of not having him
in it.
And as somebody watching with different hats on, you know, as your
archeologist hat goes, oh, okay, they've probably had him for a
day and they had him on a couple of sets and they had to, boom
boom, boom.
And I quite like that.
And if you can't use somebody, yeah, get them out of the story.
And in fact, they bookend it very nicely.
But don't make too much.
It doesn't really matter why the TARDIS does what it does, you
know, does a thing, get him out of the story and do it with
economy.
So I thought I thought that was quite fun.
As soon as he sort of vanished, I was like, oh, I've got a feeling
he's not going to be in this story because they're just telling it
with the two, you know.
And I'm okay with that.
I actually really like the fact that at this point in the season
we get just Bill and the doctor to see how she's matured as a
companion by herself and how she acts with the doctor and other
people.
And I really, really liked that at this point.
We've just had, you know, the trilogy with all of them, 4 episodes
with all of them.
So I really like that and I like the fact that no one else out of
the way comes back with Missy at the end.
It's very funny because they obviously couldn't get Michelle Gomez
as well.
Like she's only in the Tartar set and the other bits of voiceover
which I love too.
Like, I mean, that's economical as well.
But I really love.
I love Pearl Mackey.
She's stunningly beautiful.
I love her hair in this episode.
I was going to ask you about the hair.
Yeah, one of my things.
Okay.
It's like, what, what, what, what, what do the companions hear?
I love it.
Yeah.
And I just love the fact she gets to spend, you know, her and the
doctor are just chatting and she's talking about, you know
different movies and stuff and then that pays off with him with
him going frozen.
Yeah, the climax.
It's little things like that.
And this is why I like this episode so much and I think I said it
to you very early on in this season.
This is one of my favourite episodes of the season.
You know, I think it's really, really, really, really good.
Like, I really enjoy it.
And it's for those moments with her and with Peter, in this whole
situation.
I mean, in a way, we spend a lot of early episodes this season
kind of establishing their relationship and now here it is.
And so there's not that much going on between them.
But this is what I want.
I just wanted them, you know?
The early episodes are about establishing and you need to get past
that.
And once they establish that, then Nardol comes in and it's like a
new dynamic.
It's like Harry and Sarah and all that sort of thing, which is
great.
I love all that.
Yeah, but at this point, I just wanted these and it's right at the
right moment for me.
And especially like, you know, her look at the, you know, when she
gets tears in her eyes towards the end, that moment is just so
powerful, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
I also think if it's a story where you can't, that there aren't
enough strands to use the 3 regulars.
I think it's much more satisfying to go, well, get rid of one of
them rather than go, and then we have to keep cutting back to that
bit where Nardol is stuck in a tunnel with a frightened young
British soldier who he teaches to be brave or something.
Yeah, it would be okay.
But, you know, you don't you don't need it, you know.
No, assembling an Android in the tires or something, perhaps.
Yeah, an Android vibrator.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly. right.
Or Barbara's fixing a hemline or something like that, which always
made more sense.
I mean, I actually also like the idea of getting rid of the
Tartars for the sake of it seeming like a 60s story.
Which is a very 60s and still terrifying thing to do.
Yeah.
And they sell that slightly, don't they?
There is a little moment where you, the doctor kind of throws away
telling Bill that we're stuck on Mars for the time being, and he
kind of is slightly embarrassed and funny, it doesn't matter.
It's terribly good.
It is terribly good.
I can just watch Peter Capaldi all day.
Yeah, he's brilliant.
He's fantastic, so too.
Can I quietly say, this is my favourite season of the new series
and watching it again.
It's one of those ones where I liked it so much I didn't go back
to watch it in that funny sort of way.
And watching it again for the podcast.
It is as, well, it feels like a 70s, 60s proper.
It feels like they're making Doctor Who in the way that they
remember Doctor Who to be.
But with all the new wised up ways of doing it.
And Bill is probably my favourite other person in the TARDIS.
I mean, we've compared this to the per year in the sense that it
has a premise in a way that Doctor Who, you know, has a very light
premise.
It's just we go from place to place to place, but here there's
kind of a through line.
There's a story, something is happening.
This is a stage of the doctor's life.
And it just gives everything a little bit more of a shape.
And I just think those interactions between the doctor and Bill
and Nardol and the kind of shifting relationship among them all
and stuff.
I just think works terrifically well.
And so maybe these last couple of episodes now that we have the
Monk trilogy out of the way.
We just get 2 sort of solid standalone episodes that tell good
stories and show what this version of Doctor Who can do.
Yes, they show the relationships and that's one of the things that
you know, us fans of a certain age enjoy from the 70s, Doctor Who
in particular, you know, the perch we are at, are those small
moments in the relationships, and that's what I enjoy the most
which is why I enjoy this so much. think that is why I love it so
much.
It's the characterisation and the understanding of the time it
takes, even in a show like this where people are given so little
time.
I'm interested in your take as people who watch this, dare I say
constantly.
Do you feel there's a tonal difference in this season from what's
come before?
And I really mean in them, the weight that minor characters are
given to flower and explore and that to me is what makes Doctor
Who really interesting?
And I'm thinking back to vara on arc in space, and I'm thinking
back to those little moments in the Aztec courtyard when Billy has
a cup of cocoa and the world almost changes.
It's just those little things that this season seems to get right
again.
That's true.
And I think in this story as well, you know, but even the, all the
soldiers have, you get attached to different soldiers, like I was
really heartbroken that nibs got killed, you know?
And that, and that, the way they shoot the death of the soldiers
like, it's a nod back to, you know, the guns from Peladin and that
you know, when the Ice Warriors do that, you know, that effect
they have in the mirror.
But this time they take it that one step further so that because
we've got the technology, the, you know, in the ball.
It's horrific.
It's something that I think that the show does really well when it
comes back in 2005, is that it gives each alien different ways of
killing people.
You know, the sicker acts, have the whips that turn people into
skeletons and, you know, you've got the reverse video thing that
the Daleks do and you've got Cyberman doing the electricity thing
initially and then the guns and like all of that stuff.
We had the zygons last year turning people into tumbleweeds.
And so I think that that's a fun thing and that's a cool thing for
the kids.
Like, I know that sounds pretty grim.
And the other thing, of course, that I did initially too was have
very distinctive spaceships for all of the aliens as well.
And I just know that 10 year old me would have been absolutely all
over that.
And I think that it's doing that here.
And I think that's genius.
There's only so many times I can be interested in people being
shot with a ray gun and falling over.
This is much better than that, I think.
And it is just ridiculous enough.
Like, notice when Vinny dies, we don't have to look at it.
We just see the weird animated shadow against the wall because I
think that that would have been a little bit too much after he'd
been talking about his fiance.
I mean, he was a goner once he started talking about his fiance in
the church, wasn't he?
I never told somebody about your girl back home.
It's fateful.
Yeah, that was, you know, that was awful.
Like, as soon as he said that, I thought, oh, I'm not.
Very Ben Elton blackout of season 4 months there, aren't they?
Yes, yes.
But that's what I that's what I like about this.
Like it's those things that we remember from our youth.
Like that, as soon as that happens, you know that, I don't call it
a cliche, but you know, oh my goodness, that's going to happen.
You know, he's not going to survive.
And then, you know, you've got the villain of the piece.
The incredibly beautiful.
Oh my god.
I'm sorry, I'm putting all my cards on the table.
That man is just gorgeous and I'm blonde haired, but I find quite
alluring any bad boy that's got dark hair.
And in this episode.
I'm sorry.
In this episode, I was just, he is so horrible, but I'm just
totally drawn to him. a card.
He's a cat.
I know, totally, and I'm...
That's what I want.
But I wish...
He's absurdly handsome, isn't he?
Ben Kingsley's son.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Ridiculously ridiculously handsome.
And I do, like, the moustache.
You know, this is prior to the return of moustaches 2017.
This is pre-moustache.
And this being the British Army.
There are a lot of moustaches of various kinds and a varying
quality among the guest cast.
But that one is, that's brilliant.
But he's brilliant.
I just it's brilliant.
I also like the way when we 1st meet him and he takes his helmet
off that he, the 1st thing we see him do is sort of do his hair.
It's a beautiful touch.
And he does that sort of upperclass tweet thing, the sort of, oh
you know, I didn't know you would be here.
You know, like he does a sort of comedy accent, like he's got that
sort of very, very clipped accent, whereas God's acre is much more
relaxed, I mean, but he's unshaven.
He's got also a pretty impressive moustache, but he's a little bit
more relaxed and a little bit more chill.
And I guess like the relationship between them is interesting
isn't it?
Well, it is because you expect it to be one way and then it slowly
reveals itself throughout the episode and I really love that as
well.
Well, I think what's interesting about it is that it's God's Acre
who gives the doctor a sympathetic hearing and who wants to stop
conflict from breaking out between his people and the ice warriors
and that's the point at which catch love says no, he doesn't want
to do peace.
He wants to take revenge and escalate because he just thinks the
British army can cope with anything, even upright crocodiles, which
is an anagram of terraleptyl.
I don't think many people know that.
No, it's not.
And so, like, that's terribly good.
And I do like God's Acre as a character, but I do have to say that
I'm not sure what's going on at the end in that conversation with
the Queen.
And we clearly have to get from a point where he rejects the
British Army as an idea or British Empire as an ideal and decides
to serve her.
But I just don't quite get the mechanics of that conversation that
happens.
Yes, you need him to have a redemption, but you don't want him to
die.
And so it's sort of contorted to be.
I'm glad you said, by the way, I'm glad you invoked the
Tereleptils because I was personally very pleased to see Anthony
Kalf returned to Doctor Who because the visitation was his 1st
television, I think.
Oh, and he very kindly.
I'd written to him to ask him for an interview because I thought
well, he'll be interesting to talk to from the visitation, not
because he's in it much, but because he's had this great career
since.
And to my surprise, he agreed, and he was such a good
interviewee.
And then, of course, he appeared in Doctor Again, subsequent to my
interviewing him.
And so it's, I think it's nice that somebody who had appeared in
Doctor Early in his career, but didn't go, oh, I did that ages ago
I'm not going to talk to anybody about it, was still perfectly
happy to be, Yeah, I was in Doc 2.
It was my 1st job.
But, you know, and he's done so much since.
The fact that, you know, when he returns, he's the main guest star
and he's got a good, and he's got a nice big, big role.
And so I was, I was very pleased to see him turn up again.
And he's really good because he has, you can see he's been in
makeup a bit.
They given him the sort of bloodshot, you know, under the eyes and
and he, you know, he looks like he's been through it.
And I love a story of sort of redemption of a supposed coward.
But that meant I did worry that he was not long for this world
because such people usually die in a blaze of glory, but they
either couldn't bring themselves to do that or they needed him for
that end scene.
But yeah, I can see why the contortions are perhaps a step too far
for you in terms of we need them there for our comfort rather than
for any sort of sort of logistical progression.
I mean, I wonder whether the mere fact that he stands up against
catch love and shoots him, like that kind of redeems him from the
charge of cowardice.
But that doesn't seem to be enough to impress the queen and she
has to go on tormenting him in all sorts of ways for, you know, a
few minutes before that sort of conversation ends.
And I just wasn't quite sure what the mechanics were of all of
that.
It also occurs to me that we don't know what happens to them.
Do they stay on?
Do they go and join the EU, the space EU?
Do they go back home?
I'm not sure.
They could have brought one of them to Peladon, couldn't they?
to sort of to say, look, we're all right.
And it's, because you said you didn't like, you know, you're not
wild about the ice Warriors because they're, because they're
basically, you know, reptile men and I totally get that.
The thing, though, that I think rescues them in terms of classic
series monsters, is I remember that twist in Curse of Peladon
where actually this week, the ones that you think are the baddest
and crucially the doctor thinks the baddest, are actually the
good.
I remember being a kid thinking that was the most sophisticated
thing ever.
And I, and I do, I do like that element of them and what they, what
they stand for. more so than actually the what they are, which, as
you say, is big bulky lizard men. you know, there's they're green
cybermen really, you know.
Yeah.
Like, you know, given that Pat Troutton was shooting them with a
big gun, like, you know, in the previous story, it is a striking
change and it is actually a pretty surprising twist for Doctor Who
which has a very kind of essentialist idea of what monsters are
sort of generally speaking.
And so that is why they work.
And that's, I think, why they work here because you have Friday
because you have different people, 2 different people, you know
with different goals and priorities and things.
And I think that's what makes them work.
I like to think that there are people from the British Army, from
the Victorian era scattered throughout space.
You know, space during the Victorian era, to be fair, but forming
part of the Galactic Federation.
I think that's awesome.
Oh I agree.
That's what I think.
Maybe blore is descended from them.
Law, maybe.
Nathan.
So, we've got Missy for just the very end, and, I mean, I'm super
happy to see Michelle Gomez in anything, I think she's absolutely
superb, and I think that she may be my favourite version of the
master.
And one of the reasons for that is that I believe that her and the
doctor are friends.
And so here, this striking moment at the end.
And we had a little hint of it.
I've just been thinking about extremists, and there's a moment
where Missy actually expresses sympathy for the doctor at the
death of River, and she does it without being arch, she's being
completely sincere.
I think that she's she feels sorry for him.
And here, we end with the 2 of them just facing one another and
Missy saying, are you all right?
You know, I want to know that you're all right.
And I think Stephen Moffat does a great job this season on the
redemption of Missy.
And so I buy this.
I thought it was really good.
It's totally unexpected.
You know, it harks back to the idea that the Delgado master was
going to perish saving the doctor in the original, you know, what
became planets of spiders, you know, which becomes one of those
you know, great legendary.
It was going to happen, but it never happened sort of moments of
Doctor Who, which would have been pivotal, really.
Or would it, would they have just brought them back anyway because
it's a show that brings people back from the dead if it wants to.
So it has its seeds in something that never happened curiously.
A doctor who sometimes has a habit of doing that, of going, yeah
isn't that based on something that they didn't do, though, but we
kind of absorbed.
And I found it a surprising development, but one that really suits
Michelle Gomez's characterisation because she does for all the
sort of wild.
She's definitely the craziest, most eccentric performer to have
ever played the master.
So it needs that sort of underscore of pathos to stop it being too
zany.
And she's always had had that.
And so to then channel that into something with the doctor and
make that sort of part of the season's arc or running story.
And I love what they do with the 2 masters at the end of the
season and that and that end that they have that should have been
let to lie for a bit.
I feel, really wasn't reading the room to then bring the master
back so quickly.
And that's no disrespect to Sasha Duan, who I think is excellent.
I just think, oh, come on, let that just let that lie a little
bit.
But I, I, yeah, no, I, I, I think it's a, it's not, it's not an
element I think of when I think of this story, particularly
because it's the, it's the sort of bookend and it's just, it's
just fitting it in with the rest of the season.
But I think it's a great and it's such a sort of strangely
touching ending when the story's been about something else.
But also, my partner is an actor.
And she says, we always do this thing.
Whereas if somebody's in an episode of something, even as a dead
body or something, we always look at each other and go, Epi
because, you know, if you're an actor, you get you usually get
paid for the episode, whether you're in for one day or 10.
So we always, it's always a bit of a bonus if you, you know, if
what Michelle Gomez does, she does a little bit of ADR when
Nardal's knocking on the door and then she's in that one TARD
scene. you go, oh, Ep fee for that.
That was a nice, that was a nice month. next week to do the same
thing.
I think.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I think it's great.
I think it's great that she's there.
I think it's great.
You know, as you said, you don't think of her in this episode.
So it's a nice little, I don't want to say twist, but it's just
there at the end when it suddenly drops in and you kind of, oh.
And it just adds a little flavour.
She's the high point of drama and fear in every episode that
Stephen Moffett's costume because she's the dangerous point.
You do not know what she's going to do next.
The character will surprise you always.
Well, but there's also, and it's, and I did find myself, even
though I'd seen the episode before, being worried about Nardole as
well, because he's such an innocent, and he's going to try and, and
you go, but I actually wouldn't put it past her to kill it.
She's pretty horrible.
And so, you know, he is, he is offscreen for most of it.
But part of you is like, is she going to use this opportunity to
you know, use the weaker of the 3 of the TARDIS crew to, as she
does, she gets him into the TARDIS, but could, you know, you
wouldn't put it past it to very gently and coyly persuade him to
open the door and then just kill him immediately.
And that's a testament to the unpredictability of the
characterisation that she's given it, that to do something
suddenly momentarily very, very cruel, is always an option.
And I think that's, that's a testament to even though they've
tried to humanise her, even though she's, you know, she's quirky
and she's funny.
She is dangerous.
And that's a beautiful, a really useful tool in your armoury when
you're putting a series like this together.
And the dark bits of us really want her to do it.
Even just in the mind.
Even though you know he can Makano him back together again.
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.
We'll be back next week to learn where the crow got its core in
the Eaters of Light.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety
com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts
500 year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.
Toby, where can people find you?
Uh, well, I'm on, I have a website, TobyHeydoke.com, but I do some
podcasts called Toby Hedooks, time travels, which can be found in
all the usual podcast distributors.
I'd keep an eye out as we're talking about Mark Gatis for my book
the 1st of my books about Quatermass, which it should be being
announced exactly when it's coming out very soon.
Until next time, try and remember not to leave your keys in the
ignition.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
See you soon.
And good then.
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd BLB, Nathan
Bottomley, Toby Hadoke, and Richard Stone.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, Blaze of Glory, was recorded on the 20th of October
2024, and released on the 10th of November.
If any of you know Ferdinand Kingsley's barber, please feel free
to pass on my contact details and ask him to get in touch.
Been thinking about him quite a lot lately.
All right, I think we wind up.
Do you think?
Yeah, no, that's good. have anything more?
Yeah.
That was, yeah, I think that was good.
Brilliant.
Brilliant. you.
Perfect.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you.
So, uh, let me just let me just drop a thing.
So we've done the outro, so that's all good.
All that.
Did Toby get to mention any of the things he wanted to plug?
Yes.
Yep.
So, Toby, I just dropped my email address into the chat, and you
can send that to me on Dropbox or Google Drive or WeTransfer or
Okidek.
Is that one of those are things that you're...
Yeah, yeah, all of I probably do.
We transfer. isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, brilliant.
That's perfect.
And then I've got us here.
Sing severally and in one track.
So that should be good.
It was lovely chatting to you, Toby.
Yeah, that was really great Well, thanks, thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for asking.
Sorry to get you up so early.
Oh, no, it's fine.