WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:01:59 1 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:51.899 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast with fond memories of those happy days when space guns used mirror on. 2 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:53.820 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:55.020 I'm Todd. 4 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:59.579 I'm Toby, and I'm the nostalgic hemispherical single entendre. 5 00:00:59.700 --> 00:01:01.259 Shrieking in the last moments. 6 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:02.039 I don't know about you. 7 00:01:02.100 --> 00:01:02.700 I got very excited. 8 00:01:02.820 --> 00:01:19.200 Well, it's 1881 and a small group of British soldiers are hoping to extend the Empire's sovereign reach into new territory, unaware that they will soon encounter a queen, perhaps even more scaly and terrifying than their own. 9 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:24.659 Let's see how they get on as we discuss Empress of Mars. 10 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:55.739 All right, Toby, how do you feel about Mark Gatis as a Doctor Who writer over the last 10 seasons? 11 00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:00.060 Well, I mean, full disclosure, I know Mark a little bit. 12 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:08.099 So, um, you know, I, I, I obviously having a, an affinity for him as a person, but as a writer, he was sort of the obvious one, wasn't he? 13 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:09.180 When it when it came back. 14 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:14.520 It was, well, they're definitely going to get that guy because the League of Gentlemen were riding very high. 15 00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:22.919 I think what Mark does particularly well is the word nostalgia has already been used. 16 00:02:22.979 --> 00:02:24.060 He writes very well. 17 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:30.300 He evokes a sort of literary style that works particularly well with Doctor Who. 18 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:37.860 You know, he's got a, he's got an affection for sort of, what do we call it, Victoriana or and Gothic and all of that. 19 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:42.300 And that comes into play with this one with the way that the soldiers are sort of written. 20 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:44.159 He's got a great ear for all of that. 21 00:02:44.219 --> 00:02:55.259 And it's sort of Robert Holmes is that you go, well, I wonder if some of this is based more on our literary, the literary sources that we have for this sort of stuff rather than historical accuracy. 22 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:57.060 I don't have a problem with that at all. 23 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.360 I mean, the literary things are there for a reason and they're comforting. 24 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.020 But I do wonder, and I'll be interested as we discuss that. 25 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:25.080 When you look back over all of his episodes of Doctor Who, which all have ingredients that should make for a classic, why none of his episodes are really considered, the classic, you know, he never wins the season poll, for example, and I'm curious as to why that is. 26 00:03:25.139 --> 00:03:29.759 Um, you know, they all contain stuff that should be tailored for me, particularly. 27 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:32.580 I mean, the idiot's lantern is Doctor Who meets Crater Mass. 28 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.120 And yet that's not my favourite story of that season. 29 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:37.139 So why is that? 30 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:38.939 Has he been let down by execution? 31 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:42.840 I also don't dislike any of the stories. 32 00:03:42.900 --> 00:04:01.020 So I'm curious as to why what could be a potentially heady cocktail that they're never the episodes that sort of run away with the season polls or when we listen to, you know, podcasts that pick the classics of the season or whatever, they never seem to come at top with the with the possible exception. 33 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:06.780 Uh, of uh, um, Oh, the one with Diana Rigg, what's it called? 34 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:12.599 There's, I god say, the Scarlet, the Scarlet Death, but it's, the Crimson horror, the Scarlet Death, the Crimson horror. 35 00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:13.560 I knew it was something that. 36 00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:14.400 I'm getting very old. 37 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:15.900 It's very early where I am. 38 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:22.319 By the way, everybody else in this podcast has been up all day and probably had, you know, their brains have had time to warm up. 39 00:04:22.379 --> 00:04:27.839 I've been buried in my Martian cave and woken up, especially to do this. 40 00:04:27.899 --> 00:04:31.139 So apologies if I break out and kill you all. 41 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:38.699 Just thinking what you're saying, Toby, and I was thinking this as well, exactly the same thing we've talked about ourselves here. 42 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:40.860 Could it just be longevity? 43 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:52.920 Is he the Edwardian pop lit version of the new series in that Mac Hulk needed really sex episodes to flesh out his characters? 44 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:55.439 And for me, with Mark Gatis? 45 00:04:55.500 --> 00:04:56.819 It's I love what he does. 46 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:00.540 I love the Lucifer box series if you've read those that he did. 47 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:05.579 And he obviously loves, we can talk about the antecedents in a bit. 48 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:12.000 But it's characterisation and it's the secondary and tertiary characters and then the little revelations about them. 49 00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:20.519 It's that glorious girl in the war room, pushing the little timber, Spitfires around, and you know her backstory is there on the cutting room floor. 50 00:05:20.579 --> 00:05:26.100 And it's the same with the kernel here and the flighty captain and, you know, there's something going on there. 51 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.620 And then there's the marks of the hangman's noose on his neck. 52 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:32.879 I really want to know about these characters and I know Marcus put all of this in. 53 00:05:32.939 --> 00:05:36.000 I just feel he's limited by the 21st century. 54 00:05:36.060 --> 00:05:38.579 I think sometimes that's the case. 55 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:46.740 I mean, certainly his very early stuff does seem to be trying to cram 4 parts into 45 minutes and that's doable. 56 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.000 I mean, that's not a thing that you can't do given the way that TV works now. 57 00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:57.300 But here I thought that there was just enough incident for 45 minutes. 58 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:08.699 And it seems to me that when he's writing for the Moffat era, he pushes himself a bit and does some things that are not necessarily sort of central to his wheelhouse. 59 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:12.540 Here, though, he's doing something that's very him. 60 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:21.240 And I think he has just enough happening to give us, you know, a chance to understand the interplay between the characters and what everyone sort of wants and needs. 61 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:27.060 And as a result, I think you get something that's just sort of a crackingly good story. 62 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:33.420 Like, I think it's just terrifically fun and enjoyable and it moves at a clip. 63 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:34.439 What do you think, Todd? 64 00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:35.339 Well, I agree. 65 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:39.420 I really enjoy this one and I mean, I enjoy their crimson horror, horror too. 66 00:06:39.480 --> 00:07:04.439 And most of his, but for me, Crimson Horror, and this one are 2 of the standouts, and I really did enjoy this, and I liked all the different characters in it, and I also liked the fact that we got to spend time with Bill and the doctor, you know, and he paired it back or for whatever reasons, you know, Nardo's not in it very much, and I think at this point in the season, it's good just to see the Bill Doctor Dynamic. 67 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:18.720 So there are all sorts of weird rumours around the place, but one of them was that he had wanted to do a paladon story and had decided that it was probably a bit too much to set that up in 45 minutes. 68 00:07:18.779 --> 00:07:23.100 And so he's all but done a paladon story in some senses. 69 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.819 I mean, it's definitely a prequel to the Peladon stories. 70 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:27.540 It sounds. 71 00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:28.680 Almost a minor strike. 72 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:41.100 And I guess in a sort of Britain where, what, have we just had Teresa May sort of elected is that, I think that might be what's what's just happening. 73 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:52.379 Brexit hasn't quite happened yet, but we do have the doctor telling the empress to not cling on to a past, but instead to fight for a future and things. 74 00:07:52.439 --> 00:08:00.060 And I know that Gatas stuff isn't sort of necessarily intensely political, although politics isn't absent from any of her. 75 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:02.399 But there's definitely stuff there, isn't it? 76 00:08:02.459 --> 00:08:13.019 I mean, Peladon was entering the EU in the 1970s and now here we are at the end of all of that and kind of weirdly at the beginning of it as well. 77 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:34.740 Well, it's interesting, isn't it, that a writer that revels in, you know, nostalgia or in, you know, who calls back very affectionately to those times of empire, which we now have a very complicated relationship with, but it's almost de riguer to just dismiss the empire out of hand. 78 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:46.139 And yet there are elements of it that if you, you know, if you grew up in the time that a lot of us did, we're comforted by the sort of iconography and the little bits of, you know, slightly. 79 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:55.860 I love in this the, you know, the dinner bell and everyone sitting around and having their tea, which is bananas and yet it's strangely comforting at the same time. 80 00:08:55.919 --> 00:09:15.299 So he has this curious relationship with that that I think then, if you want to be political about it, speaks to why we look to the past to give us our comfort as we stride towards the future, you know, which sounds like it's a paradoxical way to behave, you know. 81 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:18.659 It's actually sort of terribly fun, isn't it? 82 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:24.899 I think that 70s Doctor Who, you know, let's compare it to the Paladon stories because that's clearly what we're kind of going for. 83 00:09:25.019 --> 00:09:33.179 We have the sort of ice warriors that we have there that are kind of not out and out villains, you know, they're ambivalent or ambiguous. 84 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:34.559 You know, they could go either way. 85 00:09:34.620 --> 00:09:36.659 There are good people and bad people and all of that. 86 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:45.240 But in 70s, Doctor Who, you could never have had people from the 19th century invading Mars. 87 00:09:45.299 --> 00:09:49.440 Like, that's just not something that 70s Doctor Who could ever, ever have thought of doing. 88 00:09:49.500 --> 00:09:54.659 And what they would have done instead is what they actually did, which is have the Earth Empire. 89 00:09:55.320 --> 00:10:00.120 Not because it was unthought of because it was too close to the 50s and 60s films. 90 00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:10.379 You know, I'm trying to think of the ones that, um, Okay, Laurie Johnson composed the Avengers composer, uh, 1st man in the moon. 91 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:11.940 Anyway, he did the score for that. 92 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:21.360 It was still very much clunky and a little bit Disney in the 70s to put anyone on the with Sergeant Pepper's jacket and a Dick Van Dyke accent. 93 00:10:21.419 --> 00:10:22.740 It was just a little bit too close. 94 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:23.759 What do you think, Toby? 95 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:46.500 Well, I hadn't thought of it in that way because I do think that that's one of the big appeals of this episode is that it's because I always say that Doctor Who doesn't travel in time so much as travel in genre and that what the different episodes give us is a different feel and one of the beauties of being a fan is, you can go, what sort of story am I in the mood for, you know, that evokes which particular genre in a way? 96 00:10:46.559 --> 00:11:09.299 And this one does a thing that obviously is a trademark of Mark Gatis, but that feels sort of fresh, even though again, seemingly contradictory, it's nostalgic, is to have that kind of H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, sort of feel about it, is that the intrepid adventurers are wearing for us now, the past as the future. 97 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:10.620 So I love those. 98 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:18.240 I love Anthony Calf's spacesuit in the last scene and the fact that they so it's Victorian men on Mars kind of thing. 99 00:11:18.299 --> 00:11:20.700 And that's what the first, I think that's what you're alluding to, wasn't it? 100 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:26.159 The 1st men on the moon is and Mark has done a version of that where people are dressed in. 101 00:11:26.220 --> 00:11:32.580 It's not cyberpunk, but it's that kind of thing, you know, it's the future made of the past, which is a beautifully Doctor Who thing. 102 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:35.519 Because again, I always think Doctor Who is about dissonance. 103 00:11:35.580 --> 00:11:37.320 It's about a clash of styles. 104 00:11:37.379 --> 00:11:40.919 It's about a rackety police box in front of a futuristic vista. 105 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:44.639 So a spacesuit made out of Victoriana. 106 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:52.019 Um, you know, men in those uniforms, but on Mars is a really doctor who he thing and works now. 107 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.080 I hadn't thought about why they maybe didn't do that in the 70s. 108 00:11:55.139 --> 00:11:56.879 I think that's a, I think that's a good call. 109 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:04.860 And they were too busy being modern and fresh and exciting and there was already too much going on with the 3 day week and everything else to talk about. 110 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:15.120 I mean, Doctor Who takes a while to kind of discover all of the things that it can do, and the new series discovers some things that Doctor Who can do that weren't available, I think, to the old series. 111 00:12:15.179 --> 00:12:22.620 And it, I mean, it's not till series 10 that we get aliens involved in Earth's past. 112 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:38.100 We've kind of more or less abandoned going to the past at all, really, in most of the 70s because of a kind of feeling that the, I don't know, that the historicals were old-fashioned or something like that, and we hadn't thought of a way of making them work. 113 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:43.559 So I think it isn't the sort of thing that they would do, but it is the sort of thing that's in the air, isn't it? 114 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:48.360 You've got Edgar Rice Burrows, you know, writing in the early 20th century. 115 00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:50.100 Well, I was going to say John Carter. 116 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:50.820 Exactly, right. 117 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:52.080 Exactly this. 118 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:54.960 And then you've got a try to haggard. 119 00:12:55.019 --> 00:12:59.820 I mean, this is she, not the Kenneth Williams version, which was called Get Her. 120 00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:04.379 Julian and Sandy did actually do a version of this. 121 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:06.539 Yes, yes, back in the day. 122 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.240 It's absolutely all of the stuff that Mark adores. 123 00:13:09.299 --> 00:13:09.899 Yeah. 124 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:18.779 And that version of the 1st man in the moon, which is kind of perhaps alluded to here, in a sense, is already out there. 125 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:19.860 He's made it by this point. 126 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:21.840 I don't know if any of you have seen it. 127 00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:22.500 Have you seen it? 128 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:22.860 at time? 129 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.620 So it's Rory Kinnear and Mark Gaitis. 130 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:38.940 And it's set on the day that people land on the moon in 1969 and it tells the story of a trip to the moon decades earlier that Rory Kinnear's character had done. 131 00:13:38.940 --> 00:13:42.059 And that framing story is all completely gated. 132 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:47.759 It doesn't come from the H.G. Wells novel, obviously, because it's too late for that. 133 00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:56.100 Um, so this is a very sort of gaitacy thing and I think, you know, it seems like the sort of thing that Doctor Who should obviously be doing. 134 00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:02.519 It's something we can do now because we've got the CGI, like all of that stuff on Mars looks absolutely brilliant. 135 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:03.480 It really does. 136 00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:06.179 But it is also Doctor Who in cave sets, isn't it? 137 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:10.019 Exactly. what we grew up with and what we love. 138 00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:22.919 Yeah, so we're, he's mining our love of that, but also to building on the law of the ice warriors as well by having the queen, you know, without really contradicting the past. 139 00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:33.059 Like I didn't really like Cold War because I just didn't buy that they were these really skinny aliens in armour, whereas he doesn't touch on this here. 140 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.539 It doesn't go back to how that episode and how that was done. 141 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:42.059 I like it when we revisit the law of Doctor Who, but add something new and interesting. 142 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:49.019 So she's got a helmet that looks a little bit like the ice lords from the sort of 70s. 143 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.299 Well, from, you know, from the original things. 144 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:55.200 I have to put my cards on the table and say, I don't really like the Ice Warriors very much. 145 00:14:55.259 --> 00:15:07.500 I think, am I, you know, it's clear why they kept turning up because we have the big fibreglass things in storage and it won't cost that much to dust them off and kind of amend them a bit. 146 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:16.679 But they are just green lizard people from Mars and there's a sense in which you kind of think we could perhaps have thought of something a little bit more imaginative than that. 147 00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:22.200 I think the ice Warriors themselves, you know, when they have the mismatched bodies with the big heads and all that sort of thing. 148 00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:26.820 You just, you can't help, but, you know, love them and laugh at the same time. 149 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:36.059 I mean, I like the, I like the lords like Azaxir and all that sort of thing and it's good having both Friday and and what's her name? 150 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:37.679 Iraxa. 151 00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:44.399 It's good having both of them here to be the voice of the Ice Warriors and also then having the 2 women, you know, boy. 152 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:56.460 Now, come on, we haven't predicated the big reveal the curtain parting. 153 00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:58.919 We never saw Alpha Centauri's curtains part. 154 00:15:58.980 --> 00:15:59.940 Yes, we do. 155 00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:01.379 That's when the hexapod things come out. 156 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:07.139 But did anyone else think when they were 1st watching this, and this is especially for Toby, that it was Katie doing the voice. 157 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.720 I really thought it was Katie doing the voice. 158 00:16:09.779 --> 00:16:12.539 And of course, she's done it for Brig finished. 159 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.279 She's done a Martian Empress. 160 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:15.539 I think before this went out. 161 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:19.679 Well, I didn't I didn't wonder if it was Katie. 162 00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:36.539 My initial thought because I knew that Zan was still around was, oh, I do hope that's who I think it is, because I'm, you know, I'm anybody that's listened to anything I've done. knows that I'm sort of all about the guest actors and the people who, you know, pass in and out of Doctor Who. 163 00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:38.159 Did you squeeze? 164 00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:40.440 Did you squeeze and melt because we did? 165 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:48.659 I'm not a man who squeeze, but what I did was I shuffled my slipper slightly and my pipe got a little chew. 166 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.559 That's a that's a that's a squeeze. 167 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:56.340 That could have actually powered an invasion force had you done it a lot. 168 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:58.500 No, I really thought it was Katie. 169 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.700 So I got a double squee when I heard his son's voice and thought, my God, they've got all the girls back. 170 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:08.160 And then I was horribly wrong, but I'm not horribly wrong because I love the woman who plays the empress. 171 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:11.880 But I really did think it was Katie. is really good. 172 00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:14.160 Like, I think the empress is pretty great. 173 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:19.859 But I do kind of wonder a little bit about. 174 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:36.240 So I think, like, I think there's some really good things going on here, but there's a way in which I just wasn't super convinced by what was going on with her at the end and where I wasn't quite sure what was going on with God's Acre at the end as well. 175 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:39.960 Great names, by the way. 176 00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:42.119 Yeah, yeah, catch love and God's name. 177 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:43.200 Yeah, beautiful, for goodness' sake. 178 00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:44.160 That could go either way. 179 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:54.359 I think before we current, I think I misunderstood the question because you were asking if I thought Katie was the empress, not if I thought Katie was Alpha Centauri. 180 00:17:54.359 --> 00:18:05.640 No, I definitely thought Katie was doing the voice for about half of the performance and then I started to tweak, oh, it isn't, but there was a little hope of my fanboy heart when this 1st went out. 181 00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:08.819 And then Isan spoke and I thought, no, I'm right. 182 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:10.319 It was Katie, because it's a son. 183 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:12.000 So there's those few seconds. 184 00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:14.039 Those few little seconds. 185 00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:15.599 Right, I see. 186 00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:26.579 Because I could hear Katie doing Alpha Centauri as well because she's more versatile than we think, Katie, because she's so brilliant as Joe. You forget that actually she's a really gifted character player. 187 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.119 But no, I didn't, I didn't think she was, she was the empress. 188 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:34.140 Although that would have been a nice touch, but Adele Lynch does a great job anyway. 189 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:43.140 And obviously they've decided, unlike Cold War, where Nick Briggs comes in and dubs the ice warrior, they've decided to let the actors do it themselves. 190 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:49.559 And I always think that that's ultimately nicer to the actors if you're if you're playing the part you want to be saying the lines. 191 00:18:49.619 --> 00:18:54.240 And um, and Richard Ashton, who plays Friday, is a is a fine actor. 192 00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:58.200 So it's nice that we, you know, we have him giving the performance rather than him being. 193 00:18:58.259 --> 00:19:02.579 And that's no disrespect for to the work that Nick does, but I think in the visual medium. 194 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.559 If it's a monster who's moving his mouth. 195 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:05.519 You want the performance, really. 196 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:07.140 Agreed, agreed. 197 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:08.700 I mean, I think she's got some great lines. 198 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.460 Like, what did the pink thing sound? 199 00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:19.740 And sleep no more, my worries. always good when you throw in like the name of an episode that you've actually written previously. 200 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:29.700 I have to say in that scene, though, I was wondering how the Empress thought the warriors who were in the cryosleep pods like way up the top of the walls, how they were going to get down. 201 00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:33.720 Look, it literally looked great. 202 00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:39.539 Maybe they're like the sea devils now and they can just leap and land without they leap. 203 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:51.779 I mean, that is really an extraordinarily great moment and a great looking moment as well. 204 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.359 So we have Wayne Yip directing. 205 00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:59.039 He'll go on to do resolution and he has already done the lie of the land this year. 206 00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:02.039 And I think the look that we get. 207 00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:04.619 Like, we don't have a sort of big technological look. 208 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:06.059 It something that we avoid. 209 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:12.660 The gargantua looks like, sort of fairly standard technology and perhaps something else. 210 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:19.559 But, you know, the hive doesn't look sort of crummy and technical. 211 00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:21.900 It looks really quiet, impressive, I think. 212 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:23.819 Oh yeah, I think the whole thing. 213 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.299 I think I think all the tunnels and everything like that looks great. 214 00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:32.819 You know, when you've got all the period costumes against that, that looks fantastic. 215 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:41.460 I love the fact that Friday is the one trying to stop this slaughter and everything and is working, you know, with the doctor and that's something you never see. 216 00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:44.759 The original ice warriors do very much. 217 00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:46.380 You know, they're just warriors, you know? 218 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:49.259 And I think that's great having that character there doing that. 219 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:58.140 And I think the fact that the queen talking to Bill, about all these noisy men and oh, I think that she is persuaded, you know, not to kill them all. 220 00:20:58.200 --> 00:20:59.819 Like you were saying your problems at the end. 221 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:15.059 Well, I mean, I think that what is good is the way that Friday, in a way, reacts against the queen doesn't he, because the queen has criticised him for kind of going native for, you know, being one of their parents. 222 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:21.599 And he kind of says, no, no, that's a tactical thing, but he is still sort of dismissed by her. 223 00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:26.460 And he does want to stop her from killing everyone at the end. 224 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:34.980 And so there is that great moment where they're all kind of emerging from the ground and Friday's emerging and we don't know how to read that because we don't initially know that it's him. 225 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:38.220 It's just, you know, there's an ice warrior coming up behind them. 226 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:41.880 And then we see it's him and then we realise why he's there. 227 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:43.680 And I think all of that is really good. 228 00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.500 I think, and I don't think we would have got that. 229 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:56.160 You know, Nick Briggs is a genius at doing these voices, these monster voices, but I do think that the performance of the actor in this is just really great. 230 00:21:56.220 --> 00:21:58.019 And sells him as a character. 231 00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:11.400 And it speaks to some of the more subtle elements because this, I think the reason this story works is that it has the, the, the obvious stuff, you know, the, the, the juxtaposition of the, the, the empire and outer space and all of that, which works beautifully. 232 00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:13.319 But I think it has those subtle moments. 233 00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:17.400 You know, the whole thing about Friday, an inverted com is going native. 234 00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:26.460 The subtle undertone of that is if we spend enough time rubbing shoulders with each other, we get to understand each other, even though he's not treated particularly well. 235 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:30.539 And he's got that brilliant bit, and Richard told me that he'd worked this out with Ferdinand Kingsley. 236 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:36.839 You know, when he's clearing the plates and he just brushes up against the one that he doesn't like the one that's the obvious bad guy. 237 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.380 You know, he just sort of nudges him a bit as if, say, I don't really like you. 238 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:42.960 And he said that they worked that out, you know, when they were doing it. 239 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:47.460 And the director obviously liked it and favoured it and did a close-up and included it in the edit. 240 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:54.240 So little moments like that have to go through a lot of processes to end up in the final program, even though it's a, you know, a split 2nd shot. 241 00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:55.799 But it's lovely little bits like that. 242 00:22:55.859 --> 00:23:08.160 And that echos, I think, the very clever bit at the beginning, where the doctor thinks that God's sake is going to shoot the ice warrior because there's a monster advancing on him. 243 00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.799 He's like, no, no, no, it's you that's the unfamiliar thing. 244 00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:21.539 And that's all about we accept what is familiar and it's the old, you know, it's the old racist thing of, well, well, you know, yeah, the one that lives next door to me is all right. 245 00:23:21.660 --> 00:23:24.119 It's only the ones I've never met that I don't like, you know. 246 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:39.660 And it's a sort of subtle underlying of the idea that actually we may look and sound different in all of those things, but deep down, we can appeal to the, it's not even humanity, is it? 247 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:46.920 Because they're not, they're not human, but what, you know, the fact that we're life forms who can coexist without killing each other. 248 00:23:46.980 --> 00:24:03.900 And I think all of that, I always like it when a story has moments that metaphorically underline, you know, some kind of theme, some kind of, that the writer's got some kind of idea more beyond just telling a story. 249 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.759 Um, you know, that beyond just the plot, that the plot is representative of something. 250 00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:09.839 And I think this has that. 251 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:32.220 I think, you know, the character of Catch Love gets a conversation, like gets a speech where he is talking about, you know, this is Mars, this is part of the British Empire, obviously I belong here, and he talks about how he's here to strip this place for resources and, you know, take it over. 252 00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:47.400 And there's a moment where we look at Bill, just for a 2nd who kind of almost sort of holds her head in her hands, you know, because she's someone who is acutely aware of the history of empire, I imagine, given her background. 253 00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.579 And I just thought that was terrifically good. 254 00:24:50.640 --> 00:25:00.059 And because of the nostalgia thing, because we enjoy the teacups and the little tents erected in Martian caverns and all of that. 255 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:01.380 Where did they get the eggs? 256 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:03.180 The flower? 257 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:03.900 Making cakes. 258 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:04.500 It makes no sense. 259 00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:06.599 They brought it with them. 260 00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:11.460 But it is running out, remember, in dialogue. running out of it. 261 00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:15.720 There is a proper critique, I think, of the empire. 262 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:28.380 This is the British Empire invading a place that has its own empress, its own people, its own resources, and ordinarily we would have made it the Earth Empire. 263 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:29.759 Here we make it, the British Empire. 264 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:38.759 And I think it is properly critiqued, that it's kind of the opposite of Bob Holmes, where Bob Holmes is very critical of the aesthetics of Empire. 265 00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:46.259 He thinks that empire is ridiculous and that the people kind of involved in it are, you know, there's all these sort of blowhards and things. 266 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:54.539 We did an episode of Blake 7 called Traitor, where all of the Federation people were kind of characterised. 267 00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:59.460 It's just the most pompous and tedious sort of offices of the British army. 268 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.799 But he doesn't critique it morally. 269 00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:06.779 But I do think we get a proper moral critique of empire here from gators. 270 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:09.539 And I think there's a there is a wonderful moment. 271 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:22.319 You know, we see the thing at the beginning where we see God save the Queen on the surface of Mars, or under the ice cap of Mars, and we briefly hear the national anthem. 272 00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:30.059 The next time that we properly see it after we know what it's for and who's created it and what's happened to them. 273 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:35.579 Murray riffs on Gustav Holtz's Mars bringer of war from the planets. 274 00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:39.660 And it's the Queen of Mars, of course, that that was for. 275 00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:41.940 And that's a very moffety thing, isn't it? 276 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:52.140 The idea that there's something we think we know what it means, then we, uh, we discover what it means. what it actually means. which is very good, I think. 277 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.400 Clever, yeah. 278 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.400 So let's talk about our regulars this week. 279 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.500 We have an adult with us but only very briefly. 280 00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:14.759 Why does the Tartars, why does the Tartars take off again? 281 00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:21.839 In order to get Nardol out of the episode so that he can go and bring Missy back for the final scene. 282 00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:26.279 There doesn't seem to be any actual explanation for it in the show, does there? 283 00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:33.779 Well, they're doing something naughty and they're not meant to be there, and the TARDIS knows that it's very proprietorial granny TARDIS this season. 284 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:35.279 Oh, maybe that's it. 285 00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:39.480 But also, again, I just think Mark needs another. episode. 286 00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.400 All of his stories need another episode. 287 00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:43.319 And that's just the way he writes. 288 00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:47.279 He thinks like a Victorian Edwardian adventure writer. 289 00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:49.259 He wants to get in deep and he throws things in. 290 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:58.920 No, honestly, I think that's just all it is because yes, I'm always thinking, oh, but, but, but, but then you have to suspend that part of the, the abacus of the fanboy head. 291 00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:11.339 But it was another kind of nostalgic, for me, the involvement or otherwise of Nardal, because it reminded me of the stories of your, particularly the 60s where for whatever reason, a regular couldn't be in it. 292 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:21.299 And so there had to be a way of, you know, if this had been in the 60s, Matt Lucas would have been entirely on film and you know, and sort of and played in. 293 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:26.099 And I, as somebody that likes the mechanics of the way that the show is put together. 294 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.480 I think Matt Lucas was always going to be unavailable for this episode, wasn't he? 295 00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:34.440 So they had to, they had to come up with a way of not having him in it. 296 00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:46.140 And as somebody watching with different hats on, you know, as your archeologist hat goes, oh, okay, they've probably had him for a day and they had him on a couple of sets and they had to, boom, boom, boom. 297 00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.339 And I quite like that. 298 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.160 And if you can't use somebody, yeah, get them out of the story. 299 00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:52.140 And in fact, they bookend it very nicely. 300 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.359 But don't make too much. 301 00:28:54.420 --> 00:29:01.200 It doesn't really matter why the TARDIS does what it does, you know, does a thing, get him out of the story and do it with economy. 302 00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:03.299 So I thought I thought that was quite fun. 303 00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:10.500 As soon as he sort of vanished, I was like, oh, I've got a feeling he's not going to be in this story because they're just telling it with the two, you know. 304 00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.240 And I'm okay with that. 305 00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:22.619 I actually really like the fact that at this point in the season, we get just Bill and the doctor to see how she's matured as a companion by herself and how she acts with the doctor and other people. 306 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:24.480 And I really, really liked that at this point. 307 00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:29.880 We've just had, you know, the trilogy with all of them, 4 episodes with all of them. 308 00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:34.380 So I really like that and I like the fact that no one else out of the way comes back with Missy at the end. 309 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.980 It's very funny because they obviously couldn't get Michelle Gomez as well. 310 00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:43.259 Like she's only in the Tartar set and the other bits of voiceover, which I love too. 311 00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:45.960 Like, I mean, that's economical as well. 312 00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:47.759 But I really love. 313 00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:49.680 I love Pearl Mackey. 314 00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:51.720 She's stunningly beautiful. 315 00:29:51.779 --> 00:29:52.799 I love her hair in this episode. 316 00:29:52.859 --> 00:29:54.779 I was going to ask you about the hair. 317 00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:56.339 Yeah, one of my things. 318 00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:56.819 Okay. 319 00:29:56.819 --> 00:30:00.539 It's like, what, what, what, what, what do the companions hear? 320 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:01.200 I love it. 321 00:30:01.259 --> 00:30:01.740 Yeah. 322 00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:14.940 And I just love the fact she gets to spend, you know, her and the doctor are just chatting and she's talking about, you know, different movies and stuff and then that pays off with him with him going frozen. 323 00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:16.859 Yeah, the climax. 324 00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:18.720 It's little things like that. 325 00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:24.299 And this is why I like this episode so much and I think I said it to you very early on in this season. 326 00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.099 This is one of my favourite episodes of the season. 327 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:29.220 You know, I think it's really, really, really, really good. 328 00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.660 Like, I really enjoy it. 329 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:36.119 And it's for those moments with her and with Peter, in this whole situation. 330 00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:43.440 I mean, in a way, we spend a lot of early episodes this season kind of establishing their relationship and now here it is. 331 00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:47.460 And so there's not that much going on between them. 332 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.079 But this is what I want. 333 00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:51.119 I just wanted them, you know? 334 00:30:51.180 --> 00:30:54.420 The early episodes are about establishing and you need to get past that. 335 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:59.039 And once they establish that, then Nardol comes in and it's like a new dynamic. 336 00:30:59.099 --> 00:31:01.500 It's like Harry and Sarah and all that sort of thing, which is great. 337 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:02.099 I love all that. 338 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:07.079 Yeah, but at this point, I just wanted these and it's right at the right moment for me. 339 00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:15.299 And especially like, you know, her look at the, you know, when she gets tears in her eyes towards the end, that moment is just so powerful, you know? 340 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:16.559 Yeah, yeah. 341 00:31:16.619 --> 00:31:23.519 I also think if it's a story where you can't, that there aren't enough strands to use the 3 regulars. 342 00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:37.200 I think it's much more satisfying to go, well, get rid of one of them rather than go, and then we have to keep cutting back to that bit where Nardol is stuck in a tunnel with a frightened young British soldier who he teaches to be brave or something. 343 00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:38.099 Yeah, it would be okay. 344 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:39.960 But, you know, you don't you don't need it, you know. 345 00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:44.400 No, assembling an Android in the tires or something, perhaps. 346 00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:45.900 Yeah, an Android vibrator. 347 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:46.500 Yeah, yeah. 348 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:47.579 Exactly. right. 349 00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:52.140 Or Barbara's fixing a hemline or something like that, which always made more sense. 350 00:31:52.680 --> 00:32:00.059 I mean, I actually also like the idea of getting rid of the Tartars for the sake of it seeming like a 60s story. 351 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:03.299 Which is a very 60s and still terrifying thing to do. 352 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:03.720 Yeah. 353 00:32:03.779 --> 00:32:04.259 Yeah. 354 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.440 And they sell that slightly, don't they? 355 00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:17.700 There is a little moment where you, the doctor kind of throws away telling Bill that we're stuck on Mars for the time being, and he kind of is slightly embarrassed and funny, it doesn't matter. 356 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.799 It's terribly good. 357 00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:21.180 It is terribly good. 358 00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:37.019 I can just watch Peter Capaldi all day. 359 00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:38.220 Yeah, he's brilliant. 360 00:32:38.220 --> 00:32:39.420 He's fantastic, so too. 361 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:45.359 Can I quietly say, this is my favourite season of the new series and watching it again. 362 00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:50.160 It's one of those ones where I liked it so much I didn't go back to watch it in that funny sort of way. 363 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:53.460 And watching it again for the podcast. 364 00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:57.299 It is as, well, it feels like a 70s, 60s proper. 365 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.960 It feels like they're making Doctor Who in the way that they remember Doctor Who to be. 366 00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:04.500 But with all the new wised up ways of doing it. 367 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:08.160 And Bill is probably my favourite other person in the TARDIS. 368 00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:15.900 I mean, we've compared this to the per year in the sense that it has a premise in a way that Doctor Who, you know, has a very light premise. 369 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:20.519 It's just we go from place to place to place, but here there's kind of a through line. 370 00:33:20.579 --> 00:33:22.200 There's a story, something is happening. 371 00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:24.900 This is a stage of the doctor's life. 372 00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:28.559 And it just gives everything a little bit more of a shape. 373 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:37.980 And I just think those interactions between the doctor and Bill and Nardol and the kind of shifting relationship among them all and stuff. 374 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:40.619 I just think works terrifically well. 375 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:46.859 And so maybe these last couple of episodes now that we have the Monk trilogy out of the way. 376 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:53.940 We just get 2 sort of solid standalone episodes that tell good stories and show what this version of Doctor Who can do. 377 00:33:54.059 --> 00:34:12.719 Yes, they show the relationships and that's one of the things that, you know, us fans of a certain age enjoy from the 70s, Doctor Who, in particular, you know, the perch we are at, are those small moments in the relationships, and that's what I enjoy the most, which is why I enjoy this so much. think that is why I love it so much. 378 00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:20.880 It's the characterisation and the understanding of the time it takes, even in a show like this where people are given so little time. 379 00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:25.980 I'm interested in your take as people who watch this, dare I say constantly. 380 00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:30.480 Do you feel there's a tonal difference in this season from what's come before? 381 00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:39.480 And I really mean in them, the weight that minor characters are given to flower and explore and that to me is what makes Doctor Who really interesting? 382 00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:51.239 And I'm thinking back to vara on arc in space, and I'm thinking back to those little moments in the Aztec courtyard when Billy has a cup of cocoa and the world almost changes. 383 00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:54.539 It's just those little things that this season seems to get right again. 384 00:34:54.659 --> 00:34:56.280 That's true. 385 00:34:56.340 --> 00:35:07.260 And I think in this story as well, you know, but even the, all the soldiers have, you get attached to different soldiers, like I was really heartbroken that nibs got killed, you know? 386 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:21.119 And that, and that, the way they shoot the death of the soldiers, like, it's a nod back to, you know, the guns from Peladin and that, you know, when the Ice Warriors do that, you know, that effect they have in the mirror. 387 00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:28.199 But this time they take it that one step further so that because we've got the technology, the, you know, in the ball. 388 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:30.000 It's horrific. 389 00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:38.940 It's something that I think that the show does really well when it comes back in 2005, is that it gives each alien different ways of killing people. 390 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:51.960 You know, the sicker acts, have the whips that turn people into skeletons and, you know, you've got the reverse video thing that the Daleks do and you've got Cyberman doing the electricity thing initially and then the guns and like all of that stuff. 391 00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:56.460 We had the zygons last year turning people into tumbleweeds. 392 00:35:56.460 --> 00:36:01.260 And so I think that that's a fun thing and that's a cool thing for the kids. 393 00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:03.059 Like, I know that sounds pretty grim. 394 00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:09.300 And the other thing, of course, that I did initially too was have very distinctive spaceships for all of the aliens as well. 395 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.980 And I just know that 10 year old me would have been absolutely all over that. 396 00:36:14.340 --> 00:36:18.179 And I think that it's doing that here. 397 00:36:18.179 --> 00:36:19.619 And I think that's genius. 398 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:25.679 There's only so many times I can be interested in people being shot with a ray gun and falling over. 399 00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:29.400 This is much better than that, I think. 400 00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:32.820 And it is just ridiculous enough. 401 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.880 Like, notice when Vinny dies, we don't have to look at it. 402 00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:47.219 We just see the weird animated shadow against the wall because I think that that would have been a little bit too much after he'd been talking about his fiance. 403 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:51.659 I mean, he was a goner once he started talking about his fiance in the church, wasn't he? 404 00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:53.760 I never told somebody about your girl back home. 405 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:56.519 It's fateful. 406 00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.119 Yeah, that was, you know, that was awful. 407 00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:02.519 Like, as soon as he said that, I thought, oh, I'm not. 408 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:06.719 Very Ben Elton blackout of season 4 months there, aren't they? 409 00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:07.500 Yes, yes. 410 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:09.360 But that's what I that's what I like about this. 411 00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.420 Like it's those things that we remember from our youth. 412 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:18.599 Like that, as soon as that happens, you know that, I don't call it a cliche, but you know, oh my goodness, that's going to happen. 413 00:37:18.659 --> 00:37:20.159 You know, he's not going to survive. 414 00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:23.820 And then, you know, you've got the villain of the piece. 415 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.699 The incredibly beautiful. 416 00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:27.599 Oh my god. 417 00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.179 I'm sorry, I'm putting all my cards on the table. 418 00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:38.940 That man is just gorgeous and I'm blonde haired, but I find quite alluring any bad boy that's got dark hair. 419 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:40.380 And in this episode. 420 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:40.980 I'm sorry. 421 00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:47.340 In this episode, I was just, he is so horrible, but I'm just totally drawn to him. a card. 422 00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:48.840 He's a cat. 423 00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:52.139 I know, totally, and I'm... 424 00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.599 That's what I want. 425 00:37:54.659 --> 00:37:59.940 But I wish... 426 00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:02.280 He's absurdly handsome, isn't he? 427 00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:04.800 Ben Kingsley's son. 428 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:06.539 Yes, yeah, yeah. 429 00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:07.559 Yeah. 430 00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:09.659 Ridiculously ridiculously handsome. 431 00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:11.940 And I do, like, the moustache. 432 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.719 You know, this is prior to the return of moustaches 2017. 433 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:17.519 This is pre-moustache. 434 00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:19.679 And this being the British Army. 435 00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:25.320 There are a lot of moustaches of various kinds and a varying quality among the guest cast. 436 00:38:25.739 --> 00:38:28.440 But that one is, that's brilliant. 437 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:29.519 But he's brilliant. 438 00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:30.360 I just it's brilliant. 439 00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:35.760 I also like the way when we 1st meet him and he takes his helmet off that he, the 1st thing we see him do is sort of do his hair. 440 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.039 It's a beautiful touch. 441 00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:43.980 And he does that sort of upperclass tweet thing, the sort of, oh, you know, I didn't know you would be here. 442 00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:55.800 You know, like he does a sort of comedy accent, like he's got that sort of very, very clipped accent, whereas God's acre is much more relaxed, I mean, but he's unshaven. 443 00:38:55.860 --> 00:39:02.519 He's got also a pretty impressive moustache, but he's a little bit more relaxed and a little bit more chill. 444 00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:07.619 And I guess like the relationship between them is interesting, isn't it? 445 00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:15.780 Well, it is because you expect it to be one way and then it slowly reveals itself throughout the episode and I really love that as well. 446 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:34.380 Well, I think what's interesting about it is that it's God's Acre who gives the doctor a sympathetic hearing and who wants to stop conflict from breaking out between his people and the ice warriors, and that's the point at which catch love says no, he doesn't want to do peace. 447 00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:45.059 He wants to take revenge and escalate because he just thinks the British army can cope with anything, even upright crocodiles, which is an anagram of terraleptyl. 448 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.260 I don't think many people know that. 449 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:47.760 No, it's not. 450 00:39:50.579 --> 00:39:53.760 And so, like, that's terribly good. 451 00:39:53.820 --> 00:40:04.679 And I do like God's Acre as a character, but I do have to say that I'm not sure what's going on at the end in that conversation with the Queen. 452 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:15.960 And we clearly have to get from a point where he rejects the British Army as an idea or British Empire as an ideal and decides to serve her. 453 00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:22.079 But I just don't quite get the mechanics of that conversation that happens. 454 00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:27.780 Yes, you need him to have a redemption, but you don't want him to die. 455 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:31.260 And so it's sort of contorted to be. 456 00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:42.480 I'm glad you said, by the way, I'm glad you invoked the Tereleptils because I was personally very pleased to see Anthony Kalf returned to Doctor Who because the visitation was his 1st television, I think. 457 00:40:42.539 --> 00:40:44.760 Oh, and he very kindly. 458 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:53.099 I'd written to him to ask him for an interview because I thought, well, he'll be interesting to talk to from the visitation, not because he's in it much, but because he's had this great career since. 459 00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:57.119 And to my surprise, he agreed, and he was such a good interviewee. 460 00:40:57.179 --> 00:41:01.500 And then, of course, he appeared in Doctor Again, subsequent to my interviewing him. 461 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:13.260 And so it's, I think it's nice that somebody who had appeared in Doctor Early in his career, but didn't go, oh, I did that ages ago, I'm not going to talk to anybody about it, was still perfectly happy to be, Yeah, I was in Doc 2. 462 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:14.099 It was my 1st job. 463 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:17.940 But, you know, and he's done so much since. 464 00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:23.400 The fact that, you know, when he returns, he's the main guest star and he's got a good, and he's got a nice big, big role. 465 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:26.400 And so I was, I was very pleased to see him turn up again. 466 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:30.239 And he's really good because he has, you can see he's been in makeup a bit. 467 00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:36.539 They given him the sort of bloodshot, you know, under the eyes and and he, you know, he looks like he's been through it. 468 00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:40.920 And I love a story of sort of redemption of a supposed coward. 469 00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:52.860 But that meant I did worry that he was not long for this world because such people usually die in a blaze of glory, but they either couldn't bring themselves to do that or they needed him for that end scene. 470 00:41:52.920 --> 00:42:06.599 But yeah, I can see why the contortions are perhaps a step too far for you in terms of we need them there for our comfort rather than for any sort of sort of logistical progression. 471 00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:17.219 I mean, I wonder whether the mere fact that he stands up against catch love and shoots him, like that kind of redeems him from the charge of cowardice. 472 00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:26.940 But that doesn't seem to be enough to impress the queen and she has to go on tormenting him in all sorts of ways for, you know, a few minutes before that sort of conversation ends. 473 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.380 And I just wasn't quite sure what the mechanics were of all of that. 474 00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.900 It also occurs to me that we don't know what happens to them. 475 00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:34.860 Do they stay on? 476 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:38.159 Do they go and join the EU, the space EU? 477 00:42:38.219 --> 00:42:39.539 Do they go back home? 478 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:40.500 I'm not sure. 479 00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.380 They could have brought one of them to Peladon, couldn't they? 480 00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:46.260 to sort of to say, look, we're all right. 481 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:55.800 And it's, because you said you didn't like, you know, you're not wild about the ice Warriors because they're, because they're basically, you know, reptile men and I totally get that. 482 00:42:55.860 --> 00:43:09.539 The thing, though, that I think rescues them in terms of classic series monsters, is I remember that twist in Curse of Peladon, where actually this week, the ones that you think are the baddest, and crucially the doctor thinks the baddest, are actually the good. 483 00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:13.980 I remember being a kid thinking that was the most sophisticated thing ever. 484 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:28.199 And I, and I do, I do like that element of them and what they, what they stand for. more so than actually the what they are, which, as you say, is big bulky lizard men. you know, there's they're green cybermen really, you know. 485 00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:28.920 Yeah. 486 00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:47.340 Like, you know, given that Pat Troutton was shooting them with a big gun, like, you know, in the previous story, it is a striking change and it is actually a pretty surprising twist for Doctor Who, which has a very kind of essentialist idea of what monsters are, sort of generally speaking. 487 00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:49.920 And so that is why they work. 488 00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:59.579 And that's, I think, why they work here because you have Friday, because you have different people, 2 different people, you know, with different goals and priorities and things. 489 00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:02.099 And I think that's what makes them work. 490 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:10.199 I like to think that there are people from the British Army, from the Victorian era scattered throughout space. 491 00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:16.800 You know, space during the Victorian era, to be fair, but forming part of the Galactic Federation. 492 00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:17.639 I think that's awesome. 493 00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:18.900 Oh I agree. 494 00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:20.880 That's what I think. 495 00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:24.059 Maybe blore is descended from them. 496 00:44:24.179 --> 00:44:25.739 Law, maybe. 497 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:29.460 Nathan. 498 00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:59.940 So, we've got Missy for just the very end, and, I mean, I'm super happy to see Michelle Gomez in anything, I think she's absolutely superb, and I think that she may be my favourite version of the master. 499 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:11.099 And one of the reasons for that is that I believe that her and the doctor are friends. 500 00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.940 And so here, this striking moment at the end. 501 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:16.380 And we had a little hint of it. 502 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:32.159 I've just been thinking about extremists, and there's a moment where Missy actually expresses sympathy for the doctor at the death of River, and she does it without being arch, she's being completely sincere. 503 00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:35.099 I think that she's she feels sorry for him. 504 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:44.039 And here, we end with the 2 of them just facing one another and Missy saying, are you all right? 505 00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:46.739 You know, I want to know that you're all right. 506 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:53.699 And I think Stephen Moffat does a great job this season on the redemption of Missy. 507 00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.039 And so I buy this. 508 00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:57.119 I thought it was really good. 509 00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:59.460 It's totally unexpected. 510 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:14.340 You know, it harks back to the idea that the Delgado master was going to perish saving the doctor in the original, you know, what became planets of spiders, you know, which becomes one of those, you know, great legendary. 511 00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:19.139 It was going to happen, but it never happened sort of moments of Doctor Who, which would have been pivotal, really. 512 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:25.380 Or would it, would they have just brought them back anyway because it's a show that brings people back from the dead if it wants to. 513 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:28.619 So it has its seeds in something that never happened curiously. 514 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:35.880 A doctor who sometimes has a habit of doing that, of going, yeah, isn't that based on something that they didn't do, though, but we kind of absorbed. 515 00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:47.579 And I found it a surprising development, but one that really suits Michelle Gomez's characterisation because she does for all the sort of wild. 516 00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:52.860 She's definitely the craziest, most eccentric performer to have ever played the master. 517 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:58.139 So it needs that sort of underscore of pathos to stop it being too zany. 518 00:46:58.139 --> 00:46:59.880 And she's always had had that. 519 00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:07.800 And so to then channel that into something with the doctor and make that sort of part of the season's arc or running story. 520 00:47:07.860 --> 00:47:16.980 And I love what they do with the 2 masters at the end of the season and that and that end that they have that should have been let to lie for a bit. 521 00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:22.500 I feel, really wasn't reading the room to then bring the master back so quickly. 522 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:26.699 And that's no disrespect to Sasha Duan, who I think is excellent. 523 00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:30.119 I just think, oh, come on, let that just let that lie a little bit. 524 00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:41.519 But I, I, yeah, no, I, I, I think it's a, it's not, it's not an element I think of when I think of this story, particularly because it's the, it's the sort of bookend and it's just, it's just fitting it in with the rest of the season. 525 00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:48.599 But I think it's a great and it's such a sort of strangely touching ending when the story's been about something else. 526 00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:51.900 But also, my partner is an actor. 527 00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:55.139 And she says, we always do this thing. 528 00:47:55.199 --> 00:48:07.079 Whereas if somebody's in an episode of something, even as a dead body or something, we always look at each other and go, Epi, because, you know, if you're an actor, you get you usually get paid for the episode, whether you're in for one day or 10. 529 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:18.000 So we always, it's always a bit of a bonus if you, you know, if what Michelle Gomez does, she does a little bit of ADR when Nardal's knocking on the door and then she's in that one TARD scene. you go, oh, Ep fee for that. 530 00:48:18.059 --> 00:48:21.659 That was a nice, that was a nice month. next week to do the same thing. 531 00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:22.199 I think. 532 00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:22.980 Yeah, yeah. 533 00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:24.059 No, I think it's great. 534 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:25.260 I think it's great that she's there. 535 00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:25.920 I think it's great. 536 00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:29.639 You know, as you said, you don't think of her in this episode. 537 00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:34.920 So it's a nice little, I don't want to say twist, but it's just there at the end when it suddenly drops in and you kind of, oh. 538 00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:38.280 And it just adds a little flavour. 539 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:46.860 She's the high point of drama and fear in every episode that Stephen Moffett's costume because she's the dangerous point. 540 00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:48.539 You do not know what she's going to do next. 541 00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.480 The character will surprise you always. 542 00:48:52.079 --> 00:49:06.539 Well, but there's also, and it's, and I did find myself, even though I'd seen the episode before, being worried about Nardole as well, because he's such an innocent, and he's going to try and, and you go, but I actually wouldn't put it past her to kill it. 543 00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:08.400 She's pretty horrible. 544 00:49:08.579 --> 00:49:12.900 And so, you know, he is, he is offscreen for most of it. 545 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:29.039 But part of you is like, is she going to use this opportunity to, you know, use the weaker of the 3 of the TARDIS crew to, as she does, she gets him into the TARDIS, but could, you know, you wouldn't put it past it to very gently and coyly persuade him to open the door and then just kill him immediately. 546 00:49:29.099 --> 00:49:42.239 And that's a testament to the unpredictability of the characterisation that she's given it, that to do something suddenly momentarily very, very cruel, is always an option. 547 00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:49.440 And I think that's, that's a testament to even though they've tried to humanise her, even though she's, you know, she's quirky and she's funny. 548 00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:51.599 She is dangerous. 549 00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:57.239 And that's a beautiful, a really useful tool in your armoury when you're putting a series like this together. 550 00:49:57.300 --> 00:50:00.599 And the dark bits of us really want her to do it. 551 00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:03.000 Even just in the mind. 552 00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:06.360 Even though you know he can Makano him back together again. 553 00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:34.199 Well, that's all the time we have for this week. 554 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:40.079 We'll be back next week to learn where the crow got its core in the Eaters of Light. 555 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:59.880 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500 year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire. 556 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:02.639 Toby, where can people find you? 557 00:51:02.699 --> 00:51:14.940 Uh, well, I'm on, I have a website, TobyHeydoke.com, but I do some podcasts called Toby Hedooks, time travels, which can be found in all the usual podcast distributors. 558 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:25.920 I'd keep an eye out as we're talking about Mark Gatis for my book, the 1st of my books about Quatermass, which it should be being announced exactly when it's coming out very soon. 559 00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:31.679 Until next time, try and remember not to leave your keys in the ignition. 560 00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:34.139 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 561 00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:35.639 See you soon. 562 00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:36.840 And good then. 563 00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:50.039 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley, Toby Hadoke, and Richard Stone. 564 00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:52.320 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 565 00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:58.559 This episode, Blaze of Glory, was recorded on the 20th of October 2024, and released on the 10th of November. 566 00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:08.280 If any of you know Ferdinand Kingsley's barber, please feel free to pass on my contact details and ask him to get in touch. 567 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:10.860 Been thinking about him quite a lot lately. 568 00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:20.880 All right, I think we wind up. 569 00:52:20.940 --> 00:52:21.360 Do you think? 570 00:52:21.420 --> 00:52:23.099 Yeah, no, that's good. have anything more? 571 00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:23.639 Yeah. 572 00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:25.320 That was, yeah, I think that was good. 573 00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:26.099 Brilliant. 574 00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:26.760 Brilliant. you. 575 00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:27.179 Perfect. 576 00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:28.320 Okay, thank you very much. 577 00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:29.760 Thank you. 578 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:35.460 So, uh, let me just let me just drop a thing. 579 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.099 So we've done the outro, so that's all good. 580 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:39.000 All that. 581 00:52:39.059 --> 00:52:41.760 Did Toby get to mention any of the things he wanted to plug? 582 00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:42.300 Yes. 583 00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:42.719 Yep. 584 00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:58.860 So, Toby, I just dropped my email address into the chat, and you can send that to me on Dropbox or Google Drive or WeTransfer or Okidek. 585 00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:03.239 Is that one of those are things that you're... 586 00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:04.800 Yeah, yeah, all of I probably do. 587 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:06.179 We transfer. isn't it? 588 00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:06.900 Yeah, yeah. 589 00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:07.800 Okay, brilliant. 590 00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:08.340 That's perfect. 591 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:09.780 And then I've got us here. 592 00:53:10.019 --> 00:53:13.440 Sing severally and in one track. 593 00:53:13.500 --> 00:53:14.940 So that should be good. 594 00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:17.519 It was lovely chatting to you, Toby. 595 00:53:17.579 --> 00:53:19.380 Yeah, that was really great Well, thanks, thank you. 596 00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:20.099 Thanks for having me. 597 00:53:20.579 --> 00:53:22.320 Thanks for asking. 598 00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:24.420 Sorry to get you up so early. 599 00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:27.059 Oh, no, it's fine.