WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:02:23 1 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:47.759 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flights for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that knows what we like. 2 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:49.979 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:50.520 I am Brendan. 4 00:00:50.579 --> 00:00:51.479 And I'm John. 5 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:56.219 And I'm the TARDIS telepathic circuits lip syncing for their life for this one. 6 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:06.480 Well, this week it's 27.5 years since survival part 3 was broadcast, a time just longer than the entirety of the classic series. 7 00:01:06.540 --> 00:01:10.739 And this week, Ronan Monroe returns to the program. 8 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:16.920 Let's see what she does in a story about darkness, light, and the ravages of time. 9 00:01:16.980 --> 00:01:18.900 It's the eaters of light. 10 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:40.980 So, I have to say that I was excited to hear that Ronan Monroe was back writing for the program after so long. 11 00:01:41.219 --> 00:01:46.980 How did you feel, John, about survival when you 1st saw it? 12 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:50.519 Oh, so what, survival was a slightly weird one for me? 13 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.299 Because I, the 1st time I ever saw it, well, I didn't really see it. 14 00:01:54.359 --> 00:02:03.299 It was a long time getting to the episode because, you know, it was back in 89 and we had a very old knackered video recorder. 15 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:07.019 And so recorded it, but it didn't really give me any of the pictures. 16 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:08.400 I could just hear it. 17 00:02:08.460 --> 00:02:14.099 I only heard the soundtrack of episode one because I was away, for whatever reason, episode one record. 18 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:15.539 I had no idea what was happening. 19 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:18.539 And so this was before I play our account or anything like that. 20 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:21.180 So I had to try and vaguely figure out what the plot was. 21 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:34.500 It was like listening to those crappy 2nd grade recordings of the missing episodes we always used to do in the 80s and 90s anyways where you were vaguely listening in and going, I think I can just about hear Patrick Troughton. 22 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:41.400 But, you know, yeah, and I, so I remember like tuning into episode 2 where they'd landed on another planet and being absolutely baffled. 23 00:02:41.460 --> 00:02:47.340 Um, but I mean, I, I, I think survival is um, is, is a really lovely piece of work. 24 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:49.680 It's, um, it's got so much going on. 25 00:02:49.740 --> 00:03:00.840 I mean, I think there are, it's a bit of a shame in a way that it's called survival and instead of cat flap, because whilst cat flap is a tiny bit sillier and a bit less matching the tone of the story because survival does feel like the tone. 26 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:04.620 Survival is a bit too, obviously, for me, stating the theme. 27 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.560 Um, it's right at the top. 28 00:03:07.620 --> 00:03:08.159 Got to go. 29 00:03:08.219 --> 00:03:09.120 Hey, the story's about survivor. 30 00:03:09.180 --> 00:03:12.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone mentioned survivor. you keep going, yeah, yeah, I've got that. 31 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:13.860 I think I know what you're saying. 32 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:18.599 Yeah, it reminded me of seeing the Oscar winning crash film. 33 00:03:18.659 --> 00:03:32.340 Uh, where, where one of the reasons I, I, the 1st time I'd seen that I didn't hate it as much as everyone seems to hate it, but the beginning of that is literally, you know, Don Cheadle explaining the metaphor of the title in the monologue, uh, which is not an exaggeration. 34 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:33.060 That is what it is. 35 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:34.680 And yeah, again, there's something about that. 36 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:35.759 We go, 0 gosh, no. 37 00:03:35.819 --> 00:03:39.240 But it's, I think survival, it's never one that people talk about. 38 00:03:39.300 --> 00:03:51.060 I think it's, um, obviously up against you, you know, a story people really adoring Fenrick and uh, the famously odd and quirky actual last recorded story in Ghostlight. 39 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.719 Battlefield is one that people are less scared of, but they talk about it. 40 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:56.939 So it sort of sits in the middle as being just solid. 41 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:00.000 And filled with interesting ideas and interesting characters. 42 00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:05.400 And at the same time, it's also the story that effectively brought the Doc Universe, Lisa Baumann. 43 00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:09.360 So, um, that counts for a hell of a lot. 44 00:04:09.419 --> 00:04:13.500 Let's be honest here, because that is, there's so much that came from that. 45 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:23.699 But I think it's, I think it's a really good story, particularly as, um, It works about as well as a final story that wasn't intended to be a final story can be, I would say. 46 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.100 I think it's a really good bit of writing and Red Monroe is amazing. 47 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:32.879 It's very surprising to know that that wasn't intended to be or that there wasn't an inkling that that would be the case. 48 00:04:32.939 --> 00:04:37.319 It feels like the closure story, not just for a season but for a series. 49 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.600 And I don't just mean the tag scene. 50 00:04:39.660 --> 00:04:40.560 It's a perfect place to close. 51 00:04:40.620 --> 00:04:46.199 Yeah, no, I had that sort of feeling of something ending all throughout episode three, I think. 52 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:55.740 But what it also does, I mean, she was a young playwright at the time whom Andrew Cartmel had asked. 53 00:04:55.740 --> 00:05:08.819 And I think that the idea was that Stephen Moffat had always wanted her to come back, but I think had assumed that because she was so successful and because it was something she'd done such a long time ago, that she might not be willing to do it. 54 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:16.319 And there's a real sense where survival is a kind of proper playwright getting their hands on the program. 55 00:05:16.379 --> 00:05:19.500 And I think the way the production works helps as well. 56 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:25.860 The fact that it's all shot on location gives it a sort of level of realism, we go to housing estates. 57 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:31.860 In fact, we kind of do the sort of thing that will be done regularly when the show comes back in 2005. 58 00:05:32.100 --> 00:05:49.259 It's as if the kind of level of realism in the depiction of the world that, you know, Ace comes from is something that she sort of that she brings to the program and then that Russell brings back. 59 00:05:50.040 --> 00:06:11.519 It's kind of interesting how this script came about and how Stephen Moffatt did finally ask Ronan Monroe to contribute to the program and it was he and Russell were at a literary award festival in Scotland and saw Ronan Monroe across the room and basically just ran over to her and started talking to her about squeezing. at her in fan voice. 60 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:18.000 Pretty much to the point that, according to Rona, she thought they were just very erudite, charming fans. 61 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:25.379 And then towards the end of the conversation, realised that Stephen and Russell, her new friends were Stephen Moffat and Russell T. Davies. 62 00:06:25.860 --> 00:06:30.360 And that then led to Stephen saying, would you like to do another one? 63 00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:31.259 And she said, yes, please. 64 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:34.079 Not realising she's a totes fan. 65 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:34.740 Yes. 66 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:37.980 Of course she would have been or she wouldn't have written it in the 1st place. 67 00:06:38.339 --> 00:06:40.680 Did you meet her, John? 68 00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:47.699 I think I've met her once in passing, which was at the Gallifrey Convention in LA. 69 00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:55.079 Um, where we, we, we had, I was asked to sort of share a panel about the theatre. 70 00:06:55.139 --> 00:07:02.040 And, um, and I started off the, this, uh, panel about the theatre to say. 71 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:07.019 Okay, thank you for coming, everyone, to this talk about working in the theatre in the UK. 72 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:12.660 And if you want to know what it's like to be hugely successful and hugely talented in the theatre in the UK. 73 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:17.100 Go and see Ronan Monrose panel, which is happening at the same time in a different room. 74 00:07:18.779 --> 00:07:23.339 Because this was the most successful theatre person and she wasn't on the panel. 75 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:24.360 She was doing something else. 76 00:07:24.420 --> 00:07:27.000 And so yeah, I'd had a chance to speak to her there. 77 00:07:27.060 --> 00:07:37.980 I was reminded weirdly, the other kind of nominal encounter I've had with it was a few weeks, well, not with her, but about her, was, and it reminds me pretty much of what Brenda just said. 78 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:44.459 Um, I was at a, the big Finnish anniversary party where they had like for 25 years of doctorate at big finish. 79 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:54.839 And there was a girl there who works reception at the sound house where we do most of the recordings and she was sort of quite young and Scottish, she was an actor and she'd done this. 80 00:07:54.899 --> 00:08:04.259 I think, you know, gone to drama school and she said, phrase got to go, oh, yeah, I did a play in my final year that was by Ronan Monroe, who no one in England's ever heard of. 81 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:08.160 And it just went, wow, you've just said that sentence in precisely the wrong room. 82 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:15.420 I feel you can like look around a big borderline anyone in this entire room. 83 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:17.579 And I think I like picking the most random. 84 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:21.480 I thought, well, I'll just pick whoever's next to me, which hasn't happened, turned up to be Nicholas Briggs at that point. 85 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:23.220 Go ahead and see. just turn right away. 86 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:23.879 Oh, it's Nick. 87 00:08:23.939 --> 00:08:26.819 And I said, Nick, Rowan Monroe, and then he just rattled off some Rowan Monroe packs. 88 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:31.319 This is just, you know, it's basically the same thing. 89 00:08:31.379 --> 00:08:36.539 You know, Raya Monroe has a certain legendary place in the hearts of Dr. E Fans. 90 00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:02.940 So, my feeling is that the Aders of Light isn't necessarily one that is thought of a lot either, and it's in a strange position, isn't it? 91 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:09.419 Because it's the last regular episode of Capoldi's run and of Moffatt's run. 92 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:16.799 And there is a kind of, I don't know, is there a feeling, a sort of feeling of things just coming to an end and closing down? 93 00:09:16.860 --> 00:09:20.700 I guess the way that there was with survival. 94 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:28.679 But I have to say that the things that I liked about survival are things that I like about Edus of Lied. 95 00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:38.340 And I guess, I guess it's the fact that she doesn't come to either of them as a science fiction writer, but just as a writer. 96 00:09:38.399 --> 00:10:04.200 And so, so survival works on the logic of, you know, like a Narnia story or something, you know, there's a magical world that you're transported to where maybe the struggles in your life or things are kind of rareified and made kind of real or more important or more kind of allegorical or something more representative. 97 00:10:04.259 --> 00:10:08.639 And then here you have a sort of just so story, isn't it? 98 00:10:08.700 --> 00:10:24.779 It's like an aetiological myth that explains where, like at one level, it just explains, you know, the ghosts and the singing and stuff that gets heard on that hill, but it also explains, you know, where crows get their cawing sound from. 99 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:33.840 And so there's a framing story that's all about that with characters who don't meet the doctor and interacting with the plot. 100 00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:37.379 And there is also a magical door to another world, isn't there? 101 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:46.080 With sort of strange time things and stuff exactly like you would see in a Narnia book or in a, in sort of children's fantasy literature. 102 00:10:46.139 --> 00:10:55.320 Yeah, and Rona, for Doctor Who gets that Doctor Who should always be watched by and accessible to children. 103 00:10:55.379 --> 00:11:12.179 So she focusses both of her stories on young people. you know, and this one especially, because the young people are all that's left and there is a, there's the sort of the anti-war speech in both stories and here it's even more poignant because it's the doctor talking to children. 104 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:14.519 It feels very YA, doesn't it? 105 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:16.500 I don't know if John's written any of that. 106 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:25.080 I've got friends that do It felt like one of Scott Westefeld's books, the Uglies and the Pretties and the New York Times bestseller. used to live around the corner. 107 00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:27.120 Anyway, he did the same thing. 108 00:11:27.179 --> 00:11:29.700 And everyone's a child of William Golding, aren't we? 109 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:37.019 And that we place young people in a setting that without adults where adults would be expected and then watch the Malay. 110 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:40.620 I think Golding did it 1st and best. 111 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:55.559 So when I look at Scott's books and then I looked at this, I thought of him, again, in the way that you just watch the character and the personalities of these embryos, Capaldi beautifully says, find their metal in their form. 112 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.259 And it's, I love this in good YA. 113 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.200 And I love this in Doctor Who, the very rare occasion that it does it. 114 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:05.879 I can really only think of this one actually, and then you'd, oh, no, there's a few moments. 115 00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:07.259 Stephen Moffatt does it well too. 116 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:24.539 But the child, you see the adult in the child and you see just how seriously truthful and present children actually are, and we're reminded of the moral core, let alone the ethical one of the absolute truth in children and how they're actually much better than we are. 117 00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:27.299 In so many ways. 118 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:34.080 And within 45 minutes, I'd forgotten how good this story was and how nuanced and layered and how funny and how very Scottish. 119 00:12:34.139 --> 00:12:45.120 But just those moments with perfect casting and how it is a little bit grease, the musical, when you've got Bill pretending to be kind of the same age as the other kids around. 120 00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:46.440 I'm 29? 121 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:47.039 certainly not. 122 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:48.720 It gets very Joan on Lumley. 123 00:12:48.779 --> 00:12:55.379 But we will read that she is the same age as the as the ninth division and as the as the Celtic tribes. 124 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:56.399 Beautiful things. 125 00:12:56.460 --> 00:13:00.480 In fact, there is a moment, I think, where she realises that she's older than them. 126 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:06.659 And it is when Lucia says that he's 18 and then suddenly she says, all right, I'm the grown up here. 127 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:07.980 I need to take charge. 128 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:12.600 And she, there is a sort of moment where she seems to feel for them. 129 00:13:12.659 --> 00:13:21.899 And it's funny, you know, it only occurs to me now that the main characters, the main human characters in survival are all children as well. 130 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:34.440 And I think the difference is the 27 years that passed since we watched survival when we 1st watched Eaters of Light and even sort of further than that. 131 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:41.039 You know, they weren't young people, they were just people, you know, Mitch and Shreila and all of those people. 132 00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:46.919 They were just our age or my age anyway when I was watching it a bit younger. 133 00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:54.960 But these kids, they really look convincingly like kids in a way that doesn't happen all that often. 134 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.600 I think they really, really worked. 135 00:13:57.659 --> 00:14:05.039 Those young boys, like Simon and Cornelius and things just look ridiculously young. 136 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.279 I looked up how old. 137 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:21.179 Well, because I'm slightly thrown in terms of like accepting them all as kids through one slightly unfortunate coincidence of timing, which is at the moment I'm watching series one of slow horses. 138 00:14:21.899 --> 00:14:24.120 I've heard that's beautiful. 139 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:24.600 What do you think? 140 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:26.399 Yeah, it's I'm loving it. 141 00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:34.740 I realised that I kind of like my my diet was dark, but with a very silly sense of human written by British writers, British comedy writer. 142 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:35.879 So like that in succession. 143 00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:36.840 That's I love that. 144 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:45.419 But obviously the slight problem is that our lead loveable centurion in this is the is the psycho far right kid. 145 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:51.179 Uh, in series one of slow horses, which episode slightly makes me kind of, I don't trust him. 146 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:53.399 It's gonna come at you with an axe any second. 147 00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:57.360 And so I was kind of curious because I was curious as to how old he was. 148 00:14:57.419 --> 00:15:00.059 And I think he's 33 at the moment. 149 00:15:01.259 --> 00:15:06.360 And so precisely when this was made is what, seven, 8 years ago, is that right? 150 00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:07.559 I'm trying to figure out the math of it. 151 00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:09.000 Yeah, 2017. 152 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:14.759 Yeah, so it places them around about, so that, yeah, telling you, so that place is in about 26, doesn't it? 153 00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:15.539 So when he's recording it. 154 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.639 So that's the same age as Pearl. 155 00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:18.299 I think. 156 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.039 Yeah, or more or less. 157 00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:23.580 To be fair, he still looks like a child now, even in this like older one. 158 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:28.019 He looks ridiculously young. which is going to be great for casting for him. 159 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:37.019 But, um, but also it's actually, it's always quite nice when you see somebody like that where it's such a different part in terms of everything about it and it's quite nice. 160 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:48.120 Every now and then you meet someone you kind of reminded their actors because there is a degree to which now people are slightly boxed into playing the same thing and it's really good to see someone where they've got that sort of range. 161 00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:50.340 It's like saying, um, is it Phil? 162 00:15:50.340 --> 00:15:53.220 Dunphy out of Ted Lasso. 163 00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:59.759 Um, who plays the sort of the little Pudleyan striker in that. and he, is he Geordie? 164 00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:00.419 I can't remember. 165 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:10.980 And, uh, and then he, but he's just like posh RP when he's taking around and it's really, it's really disconcerting because you now sort of expect everyone to just be sounding exactly like they sound in the 1st thing you see them in. 166 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:23.519 Yeah, I was recently watching a Graham Norton interview with Henry Cavill publicising a DC film and Tom Holland publicising a Marvel film, and of course, neither of them sound like Clark Kent or Peter Parker. 167 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:27.539 Yeah, yeah. 168 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.039 I'm really impressed by the cast in this one. 169 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:38.759 And especially for me, it's like the Picts look even younger than the Romans. 170 00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:44.820 But I think the actors playing car and band are both, I think one's 18, one's 20. 171 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:55.980 The actress playing car, Rebecca Benson already had a big series under her belt and was talking to her parents, but telling them, oh, yeah, I'm going off to do this other thing for the BBC. 172 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.299 No, no, it's not Doctor Who. 173 00:16:57.539 --> 00:17:02.340 Because she knew they'd be terribly excited and want to know everything, you know. 174 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:08.279 So we've got a really experienced, talented, young and vital cast. 175 00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:10.980 She is so magnificent. 176 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:32.220 That thing where there's a moment where Bill turns up and hears her and she's saying something about honouring her parents and stuff like that and there's a little indulgent smile from Bill, who doesn't quite know what's going on yet, and then she approaches and realises that she's honouring her parents who are dead and that, you know, things are much more sombre than she sort of thought they were. 177 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.680 But she is still sort of smiling indulgently. 178 00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:51.960 And then Car gets up and just screams at her in the most sort of demented actress way possible, like absolutely throwing herself into it in the most amazing way, imaginable, just screaming and running at her in a way that's absolutely, truly terrifying. 179 00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:53.279 Like, she's so good. 180 00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:59.099 And of course, she gets to give the big speech about the Romans. 181 00:17:59.099 --> 00:18:17.700 And it's a speech that, you know, is hugely important, I think, to our understanding of what's going on in the story. you know, she could equally be talking about the monsters as well. you know, the monsters that are going to swarm out and eat the sun and the stars and things. 182 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:36.839 But it starts with the Romans, and of course, it's a speech by Tacitus, from Tacitus as Agricola, and it's a speech put into the mouth of the 1st Caledonian character that we actually have heard of. 183 00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:40.200 So this is a battle that takes place in about 83 or 84. 184 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.079 Tacitus is writing about it in the 90s. 185 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:52.920 The character's called Kalgakus, and he obviously speaks for much longer than she does because it's, you know, a Roman historical monograph. 186 00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:58.140 He gets to go on for sort of chapter and chapter, but she basically gives the cliff notes of it. 187 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:08.460 And of course, that, quote, they make a desert and they call it peace, is terribly famous, maybe one of Tacitus's most famous sayings. 188 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:13.140 So she gets to, you know, she's a few decades later, isn't she? 189 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:21.000 I think the ninth legion disappears in the early 2nd century, like 11, 17 or something. 190 00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:29.819 So she's a bit later, but she is quoting Tacitus and sort of very, very famous for Bear in what is a pretty spectacular speech. 191 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:47.519 One of the reasons I know this is that I was actually teaching that text to my year 12 Latin extension class and when she started talking like that, I said, wait, I'm sure that I've heard this before, what's going on. 192 00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:53.400 So it was as I was teaching it in 2017 that I 1st heard deliver that speech. 193 00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:06.720 I've read the novelisation in preparation for this podcast. 194 00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:10.200 I thought about that, but then I don't have a copy of it. 195 00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:13.799 I slightly lost track of which novelisations I've gotten read. 196 00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:16.140 So it's sort of slightly tricksy to get into ahead of that. 197 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:25.200 Yeah, I'm in that position at the moment because I've got 2 of the 3 tenant special novelisations and every time I'm in the bookshop, I'm like, I've forgotten which one don't I have? 198 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:35.279 But no, it's it's quite interesting because A lot of what Ronan Monroe adds is backstory for car. 199 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:40.619 Also, she kind of just reinstates a lot of what had to get cut out for budget. 200 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:51.299 So for instance, when Bill 1st runs away, She's meant to fall into a river to get away from the creature and the river carries her to the cave and obviously someone in the production office said, or she can fall down a hole. 201 00:20:52.559 --> 00:21:02.220 But I think 2 of the biggest things it adds is it adds sort of car guarding at the thing and hearing the coming battle, it shows us the battle, which, of course, Doctor Who. 202 00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:11.039 I mean, Game of Thrones could barely afford to do that battle, let alone Doctor Who, and it shows Carl's thought process with letting the creature out, et cetera, et cetera. 203 00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:16.740 But a big thing it adds is Lucius is in a relationship with one of the other boys. 204 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:18.000 Oh, okay. 205 00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:26.400 And it sort of built, and so instead of having the whole bill thing going up our way, only like girls and all the legionnaires going, oh, right, yes, we know what that is. 206 00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:26.940 Yeah, we know. 207 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:27.599 Okay, that's fine. 208 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:37.380 Instead of having that, it has this whole relationship budding between these 2 and then, of course, Sextus sacrifices himself to save the rest of it. 209 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.680 Or the rest of the baggage handlers before the story. 210 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:48.000 But also, like, the doctor and Bill's whole argument about the legion is actually really quite bitter. 211 00:21:48.059 --> 00:21:54.420 Oh, like instead of yeah, instead of being this fun light opening of, I know, I know, I know. 212 00:21:54.480 --> 00:22:01.559 No, I know, and I'm going down here and I'm going to bring back a Roman and the doctor's like, well, I'm going to go over here and find a pile of corpses. 213 00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:03.599 And it's like, really? 214 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.720 They both manage it, don't they actually? 215 00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:10.079 Yeah, yeah. that the thing I liked was that they both achieve what they set up to achieve. 216 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:18.119 Yeah, it just really shocked me to the point that I hadn't seen this episode since 2017. 217 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.960 So I decided I'm going to read the book 1st and then watch the TV version. 218 00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:23.160 I'm reading those 1st few pages. 219 00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:29.700 I'm like, it wasn't like this on telly, and thankfully it wasn't because I don't think you could just get that level of anger between Pearl and Peter. 220 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.640 It doesn't work with the tone of the rest of the story anyway. 221 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:41.579 There's one or 2 moments where you sort of think that the dialogue is kind of pre-cuddly Capoldi from season 10. 222 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:48.960 And so it's just possible that she wrote this without fully knowing exactly where things were going. 223 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.019 Isn't our doll in it and our dolls in the novelisation? 224 00:22:52.019 --> 00:22:53.160 No dolls in the novelisation. 225 00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:53.519 Yeah. 226 00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:01.140 Because, I mean, it is that sort of tone that we've kind of reached where it is, you know, they're ribbing each other and it's a little bit more friendly and stuff. 227 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:03.359 Why isn't a doll in his dressing gown? 228 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:10.440 Because the argument between the doctor and Bill has dragged him away from the box set he was about to watch?. 229 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:30.539 There is a, there is a faint sense with it that it does feel slightly like the, it's a tiny bit crow body noddle. that, because it doesn't really do anything apart from just stand there and say, uh, funny lines and it would, in terms of that structure of, yeah, the bill goes off, to look one thing, the doctor goes off to look for the other. 230 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:36.059 It's kind of a bit, it feels like that works better if it's just one on one on one. 231 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:43.140 So I feel it probably was written initially as one on one in that in those initial stages where Nodo wasn't going to be in every episode before they decided. 232 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:43.980 I mean, don't get me wrong. 233 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:50.400 I enjoy all of the asides in all of the bits, but you can sort of, also, it feels like you're not always going to go off with one of them and leave the other one to fend for themselves. 234 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:52.079 He should go with Bill. 235 00:23:52.319 --> 00:24:00.059 But it goes to the doctor because it makes more plot sense for him to go with the doctor so you get the things like the time slippage stuff. 236 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.700 Um, you can illustrate that. 237 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:13.500 Yeah, so yeah, I think we can see the behind the scenes mechanics there, if you know about them, if you're looking for them, but then, you know, I don't I've only thought of that really now. 238 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:15.059 I didn't think of that when I was watching it. 239 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:21.119 It's only when you're like trying to sit back and analyse it, which is an example, I think of these things being done well. 240 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:24.480 Um, because, you know, I'm always very aware. 241 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:31.019 I've talked about this, things live away, if you're writing something that isn't, I think, borderline anything other than a novel. 242 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:34.920 Uh, you don't get to write in the perfect crucible where you can just write whatever the hell you want. 243 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:35.400 Yeah. 244 00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:39.000 You have to be aware of other factors and change things. 245 00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:44.640 So it's like, you know, in particular if you're dealing with actors and schedules and as you say, like being washed down the stream. 246 00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:49.980 Um, And that isn't, isn't in itself a problem because that's just how writing works. 247 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.099 It should be hard to notice it and particularly when you're watching it. 248 00:24:53.160 --> 00:25:03.180 And I think that there's an example of being integrated well is that you don't really notice when you're watching it, then that's the thing. only if you know about it afterwards and you're analysing it and you go, oh, that was probably added in afterwards, wasn't it? 249 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:10.440 Because it doesn't really change or do anything other than like giving some funny lines here and there and everywhere because it's been integrated well enough and written well enough that you don't really mind. 250 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:25.319 I guess, I guess maybe the most obvious be it is where Capaldi's gone for 2 days and he comes back expecting our doll to have done something about Bill, but obviously we can't have any progress on that front. 251 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:30.900 And so we just get a throwaway line of, oh, you know, we tried to look, but then we stopped or whatever. 252 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:38.519 I think she's been lost and that's perhaps the bit that is where it's kind of most obvious. 253 00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:53.160 But yeah, I mean, one of the reasons that I love television so much is that the writers don't get to do everything that they want to do and sometimes they have to do something inventive to come up with a solution for a weird problem that's imposed on them from the outside. 254 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:54.900 Yeah. 255 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:59.819 Straints are a really good generator of creativity, I think. 256 00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:11.940 Yeah, I mean, I mean, with Doctor Who, you know, you've got cast members turning over all the time, you've got, you know, regeneration, you've got people arriving and leaving and all of that stuff really works. 257 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:27.539 I mean, we've already talked quite a bit about how the departure of Jenna and the introduction of of Pearl has given Moffatt and the writers something really interesting to do, a real proper shot in the arm at the end of this year, I think. 258 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.720 On the topic of Matt Lucas's not all. 259 00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:38.940 We can talk more about this later, but the missy scenes at the end were added when the running order of episodes was changed. 260 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:43.440 And so a lot of sort of funny lines were cut. 261 00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:56.700 And I think my possibly my favourite funny line of nardoles that was lost was at the moment where the picks catch up to them outside the cairn, and they all gather round Nardol with their swords and whatnot. 262 00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:58.859 Nadol was to say, no, please don't. 263 00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:03.720 I'm allergic to swords, spears, knives, anything pointy, really. 264 00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:06.839 And I just read that and I'm like, one, that's a villa line. 265 00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:16.079 Yeah, just reading through the complete history and it's like, this line was cut. and every 3rd line is a joke from Matt Lucas. 266 00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:31.259 I think the thing that's retained is actually really interesting because it's that weird thing where he's clearly been telling the Picts all of the stories of the great nautical mysteries of history. 267 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:43.799 And he tells the story of the Mary Celeste, where the Ezemodon ambassador has come down and eaten the entire crew, because that's how his people communicate with one another. 268 00:27:43.920 --> 00:28:05.339 And I think, you know, in a story where the real proper villains, like the proper actual monsters are going to swarm out and eat the sun and the stars and things, having a story where someone has just sort of choose their way through the entire crew of the Mary Celeste is a pretty fun kind of commentary on that. 269 00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:05.940 I think. 270 00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:12.359 And I'm sure we can find ways of nominally screwing the continuity of that with the chase if we really want to. 271 00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:14.039 I don't want to. 272 00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:18.420 Well, they, I mean, they only jumped off and then they got back on. 273 00:28:18.539 --> 00:28:19.500 Then they got back on. 274 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:21.539 They got eaten by, I think. 275 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:36.299 In fact, I think it's probably a slightly less harrowing phase for the poor people on the Mary Celeste rather than being chased by Daleks and that woman with the baby doing a hilarious comedy jump into the water and stuff. 276 00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:39.960 Dennis Chenery with a BBC Press on beer. 277 00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:46.559 I also think like one of the interesting things about it. 278 00:28:46.619 --> 00:29:05.160 I've spent, I've spent all day editing our episode on the pyramid at the end of the world and that's why Peter Harness and Moffatt and there's a lot going on and there's some complex plotting and things, you know, depend very closely on each other and there's all sorts of things going on. 279 00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:16.500 And what I think is interesting here is that they've given Ronan Monroe essentially 37 minutes because the missy scene at the end takes 5 minutes. 280 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:28.740 And she tells a story in that time that has a framing device and in which we really are just coming in at the very end, I think. 281 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:40.859 And one of the things that she does is she just writes something appropriate for the amount of time that she has, just the simplicity of it. 282 00:29:40.920 --> 00:30:02.339 You know, the 2 of them splitting up, each of the meeting, uh, you know, one of the factions, which is sort of classic part one behaviour, I guess, then getting together, then persuading everyone to work together and then seeing off the monster in a way, where there's no particular kind of reversal or nothing particularly unexpected happens, you know? 283 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.920 Yeah, it's relatively straightforward. 284 00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:09.059 It might be why I don't think it sits terribly strongly in the memory for people. 285 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:20.220 Um, not, not to say it's bad, but it's that thing where I, I've uh, an inclination that, there's something to feel like it hits, it probably is like the shorter, the length, the higher the concept. 286 00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:22.380 I think that's why it's suffered in the reception. 287 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:30.119 I think you got an audience appreciation of 81, didn't it, at the time, but only a 30.3 rate on success in other ways. 288 00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:39.839 But this is how you structure successful YA, and knowing how well Monroe writes, and looking at the structure of this again, compared to the stories around it. 289 00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:43.500 I can see why it's a little archipelago of its own. 290 00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:46.200 And I am thinking of William Golding when I say that. 291 00:30:46.259 --> 00:30:56.880 It's how you do structure good success, you know, successful young adult fiction, and you plot it in a linear way, but then you throw a whole lot of emotional curveballs. 292 00:30:57.480 --> 00:30:58.799 And that's exactly what she's done. 293 00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:03.480 So the monster is, you know, the grown up version of Vicky's mate Sandy. 294 00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:06.299 He'll follow you around the room and make suggestions. 295 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:07.920 And, um, well, it wasn't. 296 00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:10.140 There's nothing really surprising in all of this. 297 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:16.140 And other than the way it was spun, and the beautiful way the young actors were interposed against each other. 298 00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:24.240 All I remembered from this, the 1st viewing, when I watched them all just once, was the scene in the cave between the Roman kids and the picked kids. 299 00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:27.119 And again, it's the most striking scene in this for me as well. 300 00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:31.740 Lots of shades, and it's not just the name car, lots of shades of unearthly child, bro. 301 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:42.599 I really wish Eileen Way had been around to just simply be hovering around in the background sketching on the walls, you know, making Philip Clark excited, all those sorts of things, you know, we needed an icon, didn't we? 302 00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:44.099 We needed a gay icon in this one. 303 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:53.940 Funny you should say that because up until about draft five, there was a grandmother who had also survived because she hadn't gone off to fight. 304 00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:04.140 And, you know, the latest warrior who had burst out of the can and said, you know, I need someone else to take over, had been her lover 60 years ago. 305 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.140 But yeah, she was exiled. 306 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.640 She also doesn't appear in the novelisation. 307 00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:10.019 So there you go. 308 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.539 There shall be no fire. except they said there must be. 309 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:20.279 Because as I understand it, the normalisations can't veer away too far from what was transmitted. 310 00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:28.740 I think they've still got to basically the same story, but yeah, they're allowed to expand, but not change, I think, or something like that. 311 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:29.819 Yeah, I can't remember the details. 312 00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:39.119 Yeah, that might explain why a lot of her changes are either from earlier versions of the script or embellishing on the backstory rather than changing the narrative. 313 00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:49.980 And it's possible if the old woman didn't last many drafts if she didn't get, you know, quite as much development as the other elements in the story. 314 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:54.000 And by the time she had a finished story, there was nowhere to put her. 315 00:32:54.059 --> 00:32:55.200 Oh, yeah. 316 00:32:55.259 --> 00:33:05.519 But there was that idea that we were going to see someone who had been in there fighting for just, you know, minutes of their own time and a whole lifetime of everyone else's. 317 00:33:05.579 --> 00:33:06.059 Yes. 318 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:29.099 So the monster itself is actually a thing called the Pictish Beast, which is a creature that is seen all the time in those sort of picked-ish carvings. 319 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.559 And we actually do see it. 320 00:33:31.619 --> 00:33:41.339 It's visible on some of the, you know, the prop ones that are there as part of the can, particularly towards the end. 321 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.700 And then in the last scene where Judy and her brother are there. 322 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:54.000 We see that there is actually a picture of the kids, you know, a carving of the kids fighting this beast. 323 00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:59.880 But if you look it up, the Pictnish Beast, it's got a Wikipedia page, there's lots and lots of images and stuff. 324 00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:05.700 And so she's taken a creature from mythology that I think we know nothing else about. 325 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.680 You know, it's a quadruped of some kind. 326 00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:10.440 It doesn't seem to be a dragon or anything. 327 00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:14.880 And it looks very much like the monster that we see. 328 00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:17.519 Giving it a Google. 329 00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:18.360 As we speak. 330 00:34:18.420 --> 00:34:21.239 I had a, I, guts were rumbling away. 331 00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:25.139 It wasn't just the threat of all that deep fried Scottishness when this came on. 332 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:31.619 First and 2nd time that there must be much darker lines of Scottishness in the law to this. 333 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:33.300 So you just confirmed another one of them. 334 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.519 Like the picked carvings. 335 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.360 And she's right, Monroe was right, and she's had, I really hoped they'd get that right. 336 00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:40.019 And they did. 337 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.099 Yeah, yeah. 338 00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:54.900 Yeah, because we've got the thing, which is the sort of same trick that we have at the beginning of the end of time, part one, where we get to see the TARDIS carved into, you know, the stone in the same way that it's in the stained glass we know of the church. 339 00:34:54.960 --> 00:35:01.500 Glorious reappearance of Roberta Tovey after so many years. hovering behind a monolith. 340 00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:02.579 I think it's her. 341 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:04.139 I mean, we haven't seen a sense of you. 342 00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:05.280 Tragically, no. 343 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:17.940 Rona does say when she's describing the Picts that the actors must use Scottish accents, but not city Scottish accents. 344 00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:22.199 Somewhere on the intelligible side of Doric is her description. 345 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:24.239 So not Dundee. 346 00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:26.699 Have you ever been to Dundee? 347 00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:27.659 Have you heard them? 348 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:28.739 John, have you ever heard them? 349 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.219 Yeah, I think I have been to Dundee. 350 00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:32.460 Yeah. 351 00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:33.960 I don't think I went out much, though. 352 00:35:34.019 --> 00:35:34.559 I was in a play. 353 00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:38.940 It's like eating an entire fruitcake covered in alcohol. 354 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.480 They can't, it's unintelligible completely. 355 00:35:42.539 --> 00:35:46.920 Brian Cox, you know, the actor who is in succession whenever he's interviewed and actually does his own accent. 356 00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:48.119 You can just say, what? 357 00:35:48.179 --> 00:35:49.320 What? 358 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:51.360 He's an ood, isn't he? 359 00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:52.380 Yes, yes. 360 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:53.880 Brian Cox player. 361 00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:56.340 Grandaddy Ood in time. 362 00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.300 God, so we don't. 363 00:35:57.300 --> 00:35:58.019 The voice only. 364 00:35:58.079 --> 00:35:59.519 That was a coup. 365 00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:02.400 It was the physicist Brian Cox in the makeup. 366 00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:04.440 No, I'm actually talking about the Hector. 367 00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:21.420 So while we're speaking about the language, of course, suddenly we get the same discovery that we get in Mask of Man Dragara, only this time Pearl realises she is speaking Latin because the boy can understand her. 368 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.559 It's Simon, I think, the boy at the beginning. 369 00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:33.059 And she works out because again, her character is incredibly genre savvy, she can spot a mind wipe. 370 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.579 You know, when she sees one in the pilot. 371 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:46.800 And so she works out without needing to be told that it's the doctor and the telepathic circuits of the tarnis and things that makes them intelligible to one another. 372 00:36:46.860 --> 00:37:01.920 And so there's even a reference to the boys speaking Latin, but they just sound like they're English and then car and band speaking with Scottish accents and their language being whatever the hell they're talking, isn't it? 373 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:05.699 I think Pearl doesn't even know what language they'd be speaking at this point. 374 00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:06.539 Yeah. 375 00:37:06.659 --> 00:37:12.059 And another Matt Lucas line is cut there when everyone's saying, so you sound like you're speaking English. 376 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:13.079 You sound like you're speaking English. 377 00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:15.179 No, it's meant to look very puzzles and say, what's English? 378 00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:21.659 Yeah, yeah, yeah So, and so that we then find out for the past 10 episodes, Nardo's been speaking Marinian or something. 379 00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:42.059 But then there's a little thing where she takes it further where they hear each other talking and they realise that they're all children and on one level it's the doctor says that he experiences everyone like that when he hears people speaking, everyone sounds like a child. 380 00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:58.559 But here it's this situation where, you know, they're enemies who've slaughtered one another, essentially, and they just see one another and hear one another speak, and suddenly they realise that they're just children. 381 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:14.699 And Capaldi gets another speech, which I think may be better than the speech at the end of the Zygon inversion about not having a war about growing up because he does it in about 2 lines. beautifully written by Ron Monroe. 382 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:44.940 And I think also because his scenes with the picks, especially, even though there is some of the grumpiness there, it's written and performed with a lot more compassion than we're necessarily used to. there's a bit in the novel where this basically four-year-old keeps coming up and say, well, I, you know, I can scare, I can scare the creature, and I can do this, and I can do this, and finally the doctor says, right, you go hide behind that rock, and you scream because he won't be able to tell where that's coming from, and that's the scariest thing when you hear a screaming, you don't know where 383 00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:45.420 it's coming from. 384 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:48.960 And the kid runs off behind the rock and the doctor just goes, delusional. 385 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:56.400 But, you know, even so it's that whole thing of, I'm going to give everyone a job to do. 386 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:14.159 I'm gonna come clean and say, I didn't think much of this one at all when I first watched it. 387 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:18.719 And there was a particular scene where my brain just went. 388 00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:20.039 I'm jumping off. 389 00:39:20.099 --> 00:39:23.099 I'm no longer on board, and I don't know what it was watching it again. 390 00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:38.880 It's all very clear, but it's after the doctor has left the can and going looking for Bill and he just walks into the middle of a forest and car is walking the other way and just part of me went, oh, so they're just both walking in the forest at this specific time to have this conversation. 391 00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:41.519 I'm like, this is like the worst parts of Silver Nemesis. 392 00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:45.360 But it now actually it makes perfect sense. 393 00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:48.539 I think it's lovely. 394 00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:57.179 The ending, originally I found mawkish, but I actually now find it really moving, where they do decide to work together. 395 00:39:57.179 --> 00:40:02.099 And it's not a matter of, you know, the pick saying, you know, we forgive you for invading our land. 396 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:05.400 It's a matter of we can all do something right here. 397 00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:06.719 Yeah. 398 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:07.260 Yeah. 399 00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:16.440 I mean, in a way, the monsters are something just sort of bigger and worse than the Romans, but are essentially doing what the Romans themselves did. 400 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.559 And we had car tell us that. 401 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:25.260 But these kids have seen everything around them destroyed as a result. 402 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:33.659 And so there's nothing sort of political or ideological about them working together and there is something about them understanding each other. 403 00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:43.500 And I do think the best bit of that is Lucius looking back. at Bill as he sort of heads into the into the rift thing. 404 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:48.539 I think that's really sweet and, you know, he's not going off just to sacrifice himself. 405 00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:50.639 He does have a cheeky grin as well. 406 00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:51.599 I think it's very sweet. 407 00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:00.780 Yeah, I think it's uh, it's good to have one of those endings where you can often end up with the sort of the self-sacrificial ending. 408 00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:03.900 Uh, the person got in there going, oh, I'm going to fling myself into this. 409 00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:11.400 It felt, um, very earned in this, and it felt like it served a, a grander person, not least because it isn't just one person doing it. 410 00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:14.699 Uh, you know, atoning for crimes. 411 00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:18.900 It's not really about that in this version of it, is it? 412 00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:32.579 It's about sort of a shared humanity more than anything else, I suppose. is that they're doing it together because they are basically, in effect, the same, that's found out they're the same because they can speak the same language at each other and it's, you know, it's a unification thing. 413 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:38.460 It's not even, yeah, it feels weird to slightly call it a sacrifice in a way because it's if anything a moment of, you know, actual triumph, really. 414 00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:43.019 It's actually funny, and we'll talk about it in a minute that missy comments on it. 415 00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.659 Like she kind of, she's been watching it. 416 00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:57.179 Remember, she's been watching it on telly while they've all been, you know, out there and she actually says something about how the sort of big self-sacrifice at the end isn't to your usual standard. 417 00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:59.940 And the doctor comes back and says, no, it wasn't that. 418 00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.159 And there was music as well. 419 00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:03.599 And I think that's really great. 420 00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:05.820 I love to learn about the memory. 421 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:10.800 Yeah, the fact that the musicians go in there to defeat the monsters as well. 422 00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:19.199 And then the musicians are what Bill hears as she gets into the TARDIS and then what, 2000 years later, 2 years. 423 00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:20.880 Yeah, but it's over years. 424 00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:24.059 Yeah, when she when she goes to the can. 425 00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.820 And I don't have a slash next to Ken. 426 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:34.800 It's wonderful actually how it's the music that Matt Lucas's character is already roundly dissed for being worse than jazz. great. 427 00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:35.880 One of the best lines. 428 00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:36.719 There's some great lines. 429 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:47.340 So Moffat helps himself to 5 minutes of the ending. 430 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:48.539 How do we feel about that? 431 00:42:48.599 --> 00:43:01.860 Yeah, so this came about because originally the running order was lie of the land, Eaters of Light, Empress of Mars, where Missy comes to rescue everyone, which leads into world enough and time. 432 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:02.400 Right. 433 00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:10.019 And I don't know exactly why they swapped it, but it was probably to avoid having a bunch of earthbound episodes in a row. 434 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.539 And it may have been a scheduling thing. 435 00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:16.559 I think Charles Palmer does this one and he shot some earlier episodes. 436 00:43:16.619 --> 00:43:19.980 I got the impression that it may have had something to do. 437 00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:20.760 Possibly that as well. 438 00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:21.119 Yeah. 439 00:43:21.179 --> 00:43:21.659 Yeah. 440 00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:31.920 As for the material itself, it's very good, I'm only sorry it came at the expense of some of the funnier gags in the episode. 441 00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:36.179 Do we know that they were Monroe's gags or were they Moffat's gags? 442 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:43.260 From what I can see, Moffatt's main contribution to the script is actually the discussion about sexuality. 443 00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.440 No, I didn't know that I did not expect. 444 00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:58.559 Now, Moffat didn't write it, but he briefed Monroe on, you know, we do like, because Moffat does one of the great queer baiting things this season of he says he's never going to talk about Bill being a lesbian and then he can't stop. 445 00:43:58.619 --> 00:43:59.820 Yeah, it's wonderful. 446 00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:01.199 Although he doesn't actually use the word. 447 00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:02.940 No, no, he doesn't use the word. 448 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.440 But no, he never does. 449 00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:12.059 Yeah, but I gather Moffat said to Rona, I'd like a scene sort of shaped like this to talk about Bill's character and Rona then writes it. 450 00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:13.260 It's a lovely scene. 451 00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:14.760 It is pretty great, isn't it? 452 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.699 Because in her 1st Doctor Who story 27 years earlier. 453 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:24.000 There's all this kind of sublimated sort of sapphic energy and the moon and all of that sort of stuff. 454 00:44:24.059 --> 00:44:26.880 There is the relationship between Kara. 455 00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:40.380 Oh my goodness, Kara and Kara, Kara and Ace, you know, so there's there's sort of all these queer subtexts, I think, available in survival. 456 00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:48.059 And then 27 years later, she gets to write more explicitly about, you know, a woman who fancies only other women. 457 00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:49.260 And I think that is pretty great. 458 00:44:49.440 --> 00:45:05.760 I think, um, there's something of a, a, a, a, B in my bonnet about a certain degree of representation because I kept watching TV shows where a character's uh, sexuality uh, was only ever alluded to if it became a plot point. 459 00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:18.179 So, um, or actually the better way of putting it is that, um, if it was like an ensemble show and the characters go, if it got to being their episode, it felt like they were only allowed a story about homophobia or coming out. 460 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.639 Yeah, exactly. miserable. 461 00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:24.360 And that annoys me. going to go, well, a straight character can have a story about anything. 462 00:45:24.420 --> 00:45:27.000 But if you're a gay character, these are the only things you're allowed. 463 00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:31.380 So I think when Moffat's not really addressing sexuality. 464 00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:32.579 It's mainly in that sense. 465 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:35.699 It's never really kind of making it an issue plot. 466 00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:49.500 No. uh, but becau, but then sometimes it'll just come up in conversation, natural, and I found that writing very sort of, um, diverse-ish characters, uh, in audio sometimes, but just, you know, even if you don't do with big finish. 467 00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:57.659 Yeah, every, yeah, in particular, I've noticed it with Rebecca Root's character, Tanya, is trans, uh, that you kind of go and go to go, well, you won't mention it that often. 468 00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:01.199 And then I think I've written maybe like 4 episodes and it turns up in the dialogue in 3 of them. 469 00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:03.059 Yeah, it worked really well, John. 470 00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:04.559 Oh, thank you. 471 00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:07.199 I hope to, but it was one thing to be that sense ago. 472 00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:13.500 It's never going to be about that, but then every now and then there's a moment where it comes up where it's relevant for her to mention it and it feels silly not to. 473 00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:17.699 Well, she didn't have the pope and penny in her front room though, did she? 474 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:18.420 Yeah, yeah. 475 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:20.460 Or the, what is it? 476 00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:22.920 The Secretary General of the United Nations. 477 00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:24.420 Which is really great. 478 00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:25.860 Well, she works for Torchwood. 479 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.519 What happened? 480 00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:37.019 In fact, one of the things that has to be done in that very, very 1st scene between the doctor and Bill in the pilot is that we need to mention that she's a lesbian. 481 00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:50.940 And the way that it's done is by her telling that story about giving the extra chips to the attractive girl when she's serving her in the university cafeteria and then how she gets fat. 482 00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.800 And then she says, I don't know where I was going with that story. 483 00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:57.900 Like the story is clearly only there. 484 00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:00.780 So that she can tell the doctor that she's a lesbian. 485 00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:03.719 But then she says, I don't know where I was going with that story. 486 00:47:03.780 --> 00:47:09.420 I guess I thought something would turn up, which I think is actually really pretty great. 487 00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:16.260 To get back to, well, the question, the question you actually asked about Missy. 488 00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:20.940 The thing is, Missy doesn't know where all the doctors' lessons are going. 489 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:21.960 Yeah. 490 00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:29.460 But then we do get this bit at the end. where she does start to accept, oh, maybe I'm having an emotion. 491 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:31.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. 492 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:37.679 So I watch this again today with Rod, and Rod's only 2 comments where popcorn doesn't pop that quickly. 493 00:47:37.739 --> 00:47:45.420 And, um, But his other thing, when the credits rolled is more missy, more missy, I want Missy to come back. 494 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.579 She's the best we've had since Delgado. 495 00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:48.599 Oh, yeah. 496 00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:50.820 And I think that's the thing. 497 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:54.059 This is a few minutes of rewrites, basically. 498 00:47:54.179 --> 00:48:00.599 And you would never know because Michelle and Peter are so good. 499 00:48:00.659 --> 00:48:02.219 And, you know, Pearl and Matt as well. 500 00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:04.679 But Pearl and Matt mostly just get to go, what's she doing here? 501 00:48:04.739 --> 00:48:05.280 What's she doing? 502 00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:06.000 What's she doing? 503 00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:13.380 And Bill is beautifully defensive about what appears to be, oh, you're using a woman just to tidy up the place, are you? 504 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:22.199 But then there's that wonderful, all those glorious moments where Michelle just turns around and gives that Joan Crawford side down and you think, she could kill you all in. 505 00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:24.179 Just out of boredom. 506 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:39.599 I think I think my favourite moments are the way that rather than saying, you know, Missy's turning good now, the doctor says something about how it might be time for you and me to be friends again, like putting it that way. 507 00:48:39.659 --> 00:48:41.880 Yeah, that was a really good life, yeah. 508 00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:45.900 Yeah, and are you really buy it, I think, you know, just from the way it's played? 509 00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:51.360 And, you know, when she she actually goes to touch him and he steps back a little bit. 510 00:48:51.420 --> 00:48:54.119 And I just thought all of that was tremendously good. 511 00:48:54.179 --> 00:49:02.400 And then I do like the other one where she suggests maybe it's just a devious plan and wouldn't that be easier? 512 00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:14.340 You know, like, I think, I think probably people at this point weren't sold on Missy's redemption, and it's happened a few episodes earlier, hasn't it? 513 00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:21.000 It's in the lie of the land, where we see her cry for the 1st time and talk about the names of the people that she's killed. 514 00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:27.179 And I think by having her joke with him about it being a devious plan and how much easier that would be. 515 00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:37.199 Anyone kind of remotely literate will realise, well, then it's not a devious plan at this point. that's something that's really genuinely happening And that's interesting. 516 00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:41.760 And obviously, it leads into what's going to happen next week. 517 00:49:41.820 --> 00:49:48.900 But it's a great moment, just beautifully played by Michelle, I think, and by Peter. they're superb. 518 00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:52.440 They're dynamically opposed together, aren't they? 519 00:49:52.500 --> 00:49:54.360 That whole yin yang yin thing that they do. 520 00:49:54.420 --> 00:49:59.639 Sometimes it's difficult to tell them apart or tell them apart, especially when they're whirling about each other. 521 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:01.320 No, it is. 522 00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:02.519 Which one's which? 523 00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:05.340 And I mean, I mean that digetically, Brendan, one. 524 00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:06.960 The shadow and the light. 525 00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:14.519 I can very much see Capaldi's doctor be utterly tempted and capable to do anything that Missy will do. 526 00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:16.019 He just would never do it. 527 00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:17.159 He chooses not to. 528 00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:20.760 She just doesn't have those boundaries, but they're so alike. 529 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:24.480 They should have just ended up marrying each other at the end of the show. 530 00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:25.980 It's almost there. 531 00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.039 Actually, no, no, because the mistress is always the fun one, isn't she? 532 00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:29.699 these stories. 533 00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:30.900 So yeah, I get I get it. 534 00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:35.400 I just realised that's why she's called Missy. 535 00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.559 It's not mistress. 536 00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:45.719 She's the she's the libidinous mistress to to Capaldi's doctor, whereas Clara is the is the granddaughter slash. 537 00:50:45.780 --> 00:50:48.300 Oh, let's get a bit non-eatable about this. 538 00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:49.679 Yep. 539 00:50:49.739 --> 00:50:51.960 That's where I'm going to, that's where I'm going to stick. 540 00:50:52.019 --> 00:50:55.800 I'm going to stick my de bevoir right there, my little fridge magnet right there. 541 00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:05.579 I think, uh, it did really remind me of how, how well Moffat wrote The Master, if we, if we can refer to Missy as the master in those terms. 542 00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:07.079 I think he's probably the best. 543 00:51:07.139 --> 00:51:09.119 And of the showrunners. 544 00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:14.099 And it is pretty much just the showrun as you might, the master in the news series as far as I'm aware at the top of my head. 545 00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:17.820 I can't think of many instances of other people think, unless it's like literally just cameos. 546 00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:22.380 Um, And it does feel the most like an actual character to me. 547 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:31.980 Um, and that's, I suppose, why, um, yeah, there's the suggestion best in Delgado, because it really is about a bit more than just being evil cackling maniac. 548 00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:36.659 Even though, you know, Michelle Gibbs great evil cackling maniac. 549 00:51:36.780 --> 00:51:57.119 Actually, I suppose that's one of the other reasons that I think it's interesting in terms of what we were saying earlier about the sense of a slightly potentially grumpier Reed, of Capaldi, and I'm very much reminded of having written for Michelle, to play Missy on a few occasions where you have no idea what you're going to get. 550 00:51:57.179 --> 00:52:06.719 Even if just the actual like the material on the page is clear and relatively straightforward, she will come in and do something absolutely barking out because she does her own little spin on it. 551 00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:07.440 She's amazing. 552 00:52:07.500 --> 00:52:09.239 Do you think exactly what you want it to be? 553 00:52:09.300 --> 00:52:13.380 She's like that when you've sat next to her, hasn't you, haven't you John? 554 00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:14.519 I've seen her on comic con stuff. 555 00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:15.780 She's terrifying. 556 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:18.539 In the best way. glorious. 557 00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:19.320 Yeah. 558 00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:21.480 But she is exactly what you want that woman to be. 559 00:52:21.539 --> 00:52:22.920 Director's nightmare. 560 00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:24.480 Does she extemporised? 561 00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:25.500 Does she admit? 562 00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:26.400 No, not in this. 563 00:52:26.460 --> 00:52:34.320 No, I think she pretty much does the lines, but you've no idea where they're going to go and it can be like all over the shop in the best possible way. 564 00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.980 Well, that's all the time we have this wave. 565 00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:05.460 We'll be back next week for something much scarier and more upsetting than usual in world enough and time. 566 00:53:06.059 --> 00:53:24.599 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500-year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire. 567 00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:33.539 Until next time, for God's sake, go outside and get some vitamin D. Thank you very much for listening and good night. 568 00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:34.380 Good night. 569 00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:35.159 Good night. 570 00:53:35.219 --> 00:53:36.599 Good Bennings. 571 00:53:41.039 --> 00:53:46.679 That was Flight 3 Entirety, sorry, Nathan Bottomley, John Dorney, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. 572 00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:48.900 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 573 00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:55.199 This episode, a perfect crucible, was recorded on the 27th of October 2024 and released on the 17th of November. 574 00:53:55.920 --> 00:54:06.360 If Death by Scotland is a complete and total absence of any kind of sunlight, perhaps Death by Australia is being repeatedly struck on the head by dopey and ill advised attempts to regulate the Internet. 575 00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:08.699 Write to your MP. 576 00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:24.599 I just bought three instantly, and one of them happened to be your Death World, and I was, I was so, it was so lovely. 577 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:26.880 Katie, having so much fun. 578 00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:28.260 Yeah, I had... 579 00:54:28.260 --> 00:54:29.340 You should like it. really works. 580 00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:30.239 It really worked. 581 00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:31.739 Yeah, I had a fun time with that. 582 00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.199 Um, Yeah. 583 00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:43.500 Some of it is, some people have said some things about, uh, how some of it is out of period because there's things like the Cloister Bell and stuff like that in there. 584 00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:46.440 They would say that though, wouldn't they? 585 00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:51.239 Yeah, but here's the thing. the thing. because a good chunk of that 1st episode was salvage from a script that couldn't be done. 586 00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:54.480 So I managed to think, oh, actually, I can use some of this somewhere else. 587 00:54:54.539 --> 00:54:55.800 And I thought, the lines are good enough. 588 00:54:55.860 --> 00:54:56.340 I'll keep them. 589 00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:59.340 I don't really mind the fact that they're not, they wouldn't have said that in the 70s. 590 00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:00.719 So, yeah. 591 00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:01.500 Doesn't matter. 592 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:03.420 I'm trying to think. 593 00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:10.139 Now, a quick one for me and Brendan, before we all properly start because I'll forget being the ADHD little thing I currently am. 594 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:12.719 Please, more Avengers. 595 00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:17.039 Oh, yeah, I, at the moment, I don't seem to be any more plans. 596 00:55:17.099 --> 00:55:19.139 We're really hopeful because that's frustrating. 597 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.219 I know we thought they weren't. 598 00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:21.360 It's not studio York. 599 00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:22.440 Anal, is it? 600 00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:23.820 No, I think it's just sales. 601 00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:25.679 I don't think it sells massively well. 602 00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:26.280 They do that well. 603 00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:26.940 Oh, okay. 604 00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:27.599 I think they did it. 605 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:37.380 Well, enough. to like keep doing them for a while, but then not enough to actually, you know, it's a bit of a frustration because there was always something like a little nice little gig per year. 606 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:39.239 It's really sweet one. 607 00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:41.340 And everybody just works so well in them. 608 00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:42.960 Yeah, I think I think so too. 609 00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:51.659 I mean, I'd love to do more with Beth Chalmers as Kathy Gale because Brendan and I were saying that's, what did you think, Brendan? 610 00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:52.559 Oh, just amazing. 611 00:55:52.619 --> 00:55:54.480 Well, just what I just said. 612 00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:56.400 She took my breath away, like that 1st scene. 613 00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:57.300 I kill a gorilla. 614 00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:00.059 You know, is just like perfectly pitched. 615 00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:09.000 There was there was a moment when we were discussing who could play Mrs. Peel. where David Richardson said, oh, what have you thought, what about, I don't know. 616 00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:10.860 Um, Beth Chalmers. 617 00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:15.119 And I just went, no, because if we ever do Kathy Gale, she's Kathy Gale. 618 00:56:15.179 --> 00:56:17.280 Because there's no other choice. 619 00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:26.760 She's, she, she basically is on a black man in most senses, you know, you know, you know, even down to the fact she's a boxer. 620 00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:33.000 She's an actual fighter, so, you know, she could kick the crap out of me like on a black one, could she knock someone out? 621 00:56:33.059 --> 00:56:34.260 Yeah. 622 00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.440 But yeah, that was that was always fun. 623 00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:38.579 Olivia is charming. 624 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:47.039 It's more of the, it's much more of the feel of a comic book or a younger Emma, but she's just superb and I love, I love everyone in it and I love your writing in it. 625 00:56:47.099 --> 00:56:48.900 I think it's the best stuff you've done for them. 626 00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:50.579 I had a lovely time with it. 627 00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:53.039 I love doing the kind of the style and the humour and yeah. 628 00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:55.860 And it's just, it's one word, especially the lost ones. 629 00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:58.980 Yeah, although they were fun. and I really, really love them. 630 00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:00.719 I listen to them still. 631 00:57:01.139 --> 00:57:19.860 I had a genuinely unique experience and I think it's quite hard in our modern world to have a unique experience. which was when I was invited to the BFI to watch the Recovered Tunnel of Fear, after having written an adaptation just from the Telesnaps and being so wrong. 632 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:21.000 It's ridiculous. 633 00:57:21.059 --> 00:57:32.460 It's weird, but like, I think I talked about this in the DVDs where anytime I, there was a 50-50 binary choice, I went for the other one. 634 00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:41.639 And whatever they, so, for example, at the end, he's like got the matches in, it's whether they are genuine or exploding cigarettes and it's really unclear to whether they genuinely are or not. 635 00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:42.960 And I went, no, it's a bluff. 636 00:57:43.019 --> 00:57:46.199 And then in TV, no, they actually are. think it's things like that. 637 00:57:46.260 --> 00:57:49.019 And there are whole subplots in there that you can't tell of that. 638 00:57:49.019 --> 00:57:56.039 And it really emphasised how little we know about those episodes and about how much of it is. 639 00:57:56.099 --> 00:58:09.900 And I found this with one of the other episodes as well, there was, um, When I had to write, where there is a character listed in the radio Times cast billing, who is not mentioning the synopsis, and someone who's mentioned the synopsis, who is not mentioning the radio Times cast billing, going, I don't understand what any of this means. 640 00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:13.980 And it's always just going to be like absolute guess what. 641 00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:16.500 But it was really weird just seeing the filmed version of it. 642 00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:22.500 It felt like somebody had taken the script I'd written, taken it back in time and adapted it for television in the 60s. 643 00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:30.239 Uh, and I just kept getting distracted by the fact he's got like, uh, the extras include Nikki Henson and, um, and what's his name? 644 00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:32.219 Is it Julian Holloway? 645 00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:33.360 Yeah. 646 00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:33.840 Really? 647 00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:35.280 Oh, okay. 648 00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:36.840 The guy out of survival. 649 00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:40.980 Which is which is a useful link for what we're talking about today, isn't it, I suppose? 650 00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:47.519 you know, yeah, the guy who's like the army guy. in that is one of the extras in the background. 651 00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:48.539 Apes of other things. 652 00:58:48.599 --> 00:58:51.360 Yeah, he's one of the war-coms in the background, him and Nicky Hanson. 653 00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:55.440 And I just kept trying to remember their names going, which one is it? 654 00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:56.820 And I think I was having exactly the same thought. 655 00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:57.119 I go. 656 00:58:57.179 --> 00:58:57.960 Is it Jillian all about? 657 00:58:58.019 --> 00:58:58.380 Is it that? 658 00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.119 So I couldn't quite focus on the story. 659 00:59:00.179 --> 00:59:00.719 Yeah. 660 00:59:01.860 --> 00:59:03.480 Brilliant. 661 00:59:03.539 --> 00:59:05.099 So when was that discovered? 662 00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:06.360 Oh, it was about... 663 00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:09.059 I mean, 2018 or something like that? 664 00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:10.139 Oh, okay. 665 00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:11.340 Because it was just... 666 00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.219 I mean, I think it was literally 6 months after our version came out. 667 00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:17.880 So the most quickly redundant big finish thing ever. 668 00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:28.739 I know which one in a way was going, I'm delighted because like seeing any more of those is, and I'd say it's also probably easily the best one are the ones from the 1st series that exist. 669 00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:29.460 Yeah. 670 00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:32.940 What a shame we never got the bananas one. 671 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:34.559 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 672 00:59:34.619 --> 00:59:35.159 Oh, God. 673 00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:35.820 Unbelievable. 674 00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:37.559 I'd forgotten the banana So it's a good audio. 675 00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:38.219 Yeah it's fun. 676 00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:39.539 What is really good in it? 677 00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:39.780 Yeah. 678 00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:40.500 God yeah.