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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:23:28

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flights for Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast that knows what we like.

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I'm Nathan.

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I am Brendan.

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And I'm John.

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And I'm the TARDIS telepathic circuits lip syncing for their life

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for this one.

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Well, this week it's 27.5 years since survival part 3 was

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broadcast, a time just longer than the entirety of the classic

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series.

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And this week, Ronan Monroe returns to the program.

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Let's see what she does in a story about darkness, light, and the

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ravages of time.

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It's the eaters of light.

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So, I have to say that I was excited to hear that Ronan Monroe was

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back writing for the program after so long.

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How did you feel, John, about survival when you 1st saw it?

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Oh, so what, survival was a slightly weird one for me?

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Because I, the 1st time I ever saw it, well, I didn't really see

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it.

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It was a long time getting to the episode because, you know, it

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was back in 89 and we had a very old knackered video recorder.

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And so recorded it, but it didn't really give me any of the

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pictures.

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I could just hear it.

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I only heard the soundtrack of episode one because I was away, for

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whatever reason, episode one record.

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I had no idea what was happening.

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And so this was before I play our account or anything like that.

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So I had to try and vaguely figure out what the plot was.

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It was like listening to those crappy 2nd grade recordings of the

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missing episodes we always used to do in the 80s and 90s anyways

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where you were vaguely listening in and going, I think I can just

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about hear Patrick Troughton.

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But, you know, yeah, and I, so I remember like tuning into episode

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2 where they'd landed on another planet and being absolutely

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baffled.

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Um, but I mean, I, I, I think survival is um, is, is a really

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lovely piece of work.

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It's, um, it's got so much going on.

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I mean, I think there are, it's a bit of a shame in a way that

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it's called survival and instead of cat flap, because whilst cat

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flap is a tiny bit sillier and a bit less matching the tone of the

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story because survival does feel like the tone.

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Survival is a bit too, obviously, for me, stating the theme.

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Um, it's right at the top.

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Got to go.

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Hey, the story's about survivor.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone mentioned survivor. you keep going, yeah

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yeah, I've got that.

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I think I know what you're saying.

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Yeah, it reminded me of seeing the Oscar winning crash film.

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Uh, where, where one of the reasons I, I, the 1st time I'd seen

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that I didn't hate it as much as everyone seems to hate it, but

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the beginning of that is literally, you know, Don Cheadle

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explaining the metaphor of the title in the monologue, uh, which

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is not an exaggeration.

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That is what it is.

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And yeah, again, there's something about that.

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We go, 0 gosh, no.

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But it's, I think survival, it's never one that people talk

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about.

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I think it's, um, obviously up against you, you know, a story

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people really adoring Fenrick and uh, the famously odd and quirky

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actual last recorded story in Ghostlight.

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Battlefield is one that people are less scared of, but they talk

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about it.

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So it sort of sits in the middle as being just solid.

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And filled with interesting ideas and interesting characters.

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And at the same time, it's also the story that effectively brought

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the Doc Universe, Lisa Baumann.

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So, um, that counts for a hell of a lot.

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Let's be honest here, because that is, there's so much that came

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from that.

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But I think it's, I think it's a really good story, particularly

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as, um, It works about as well as a final story that wasn't

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intended to be a final story can be, I would say.

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I think it's a really good bit of writing and Red Monroe is

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amazing.

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It's very surprising to know that that wasn't intended to be or

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that there wasn't an inkling that that would be the case.

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It feels like the closure story, not just for a season but for a

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series.

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And I don't just mean the tag scene.

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It's a perfect place to close.

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Yeah, no, I had that sort of feeling of something ending all

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throughout episode three, I think.

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But what it also does, I mean, she was a young playwright at the

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time whom Andrew Cartmel had asked.

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And I think that the idea was that Stephen Moffat had always

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wanted her to come back, but I think had assumed that because she

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was so successful and because it was something she'd done such a

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long time ago, that she might not be willing to do it.

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And there's a real sense where survival is a kind of proper

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playwright getting their hands on the program.

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And I think the way the production works helps as well.

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The fact that it's all shot on location gives it a sort of level

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of realism, we go to housing estates.

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In fact, we kind of do the sort of thing that will be done

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regularly when the show comes back in 2005.

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It's as if the kind of level of realism in the depiction of the

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world that, you know, Ace comes from is something that she sort of

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that she brings to the program and then that Russell brings back.

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It's kind of interesting how this script came about and how

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Stephen Moffatt did finally ask Ronan Monroe to contribute to the

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program and it was he and Russell were at a literary award

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festival in Scotland and saw Ronan Monroe across the room and

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basically just ran over to her and started talking to her about

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squeezing. at her in fan voice.

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Pretty much to the point that, according to Rona, she thought they

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were just very erudite, charming fans.

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And then towards the end of the conversation, realised that

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Stephen and Russell, her new friends were Stephen Moffat and

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Russell T. Davies.

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And that then led to Stephen saying, would you like to do another

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one?

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And she said, yes, please.

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Not realising she's a totes fan.

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Yes.

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Of course she would have been or she wouldn't have written it in

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the 1st place.

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Did you meet her, John?

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I think I've met her once in passing, which was at the Gallifrey

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Convention in LA.

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Um, where we, we, we had, I was asked to sort of share a panel

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about the theatre.

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And, um, and I started off the, this, uh, panel about the theatre

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to say.

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Okay, thank you for coming, everyone, to this talk about working

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in the theatre in the UK.

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And if you want to know what it's like to be hugely successful and

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hugely talented in the theatre in the UK.

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Go and see Ronan Monrose panel, which is happening at the same

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time in a different room.

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Because this was the most successful theatre person and she wasn't

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on the panel.

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She was doing something else.

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And so yeah, I'd had a chance to speak to her there.

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I was reminded weirdly, the other kind of nominal encounter I've

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had with it was a few weeks, well, not with her, but about her, was

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and it reminds me pretty much of what Brenda just said.

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Um, I was at a, the big Finnish anniversary party where they had

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like for 25 years of doctorate at big finish.

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And there was a girl there who works reception at the sound house

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where we do most of the recordings and she was sort of quite young

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and Scottish, she was an actor and she'd done this.

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I think, you know, gone to drama school and she said, phrase got

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to go, oh, yeah, I did a play in my final year that was by Ronan

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Monroe, who no one in England's ever heard of.

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And it just went, wow, you've just said that sentence in precisely

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the wrong room.

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I feel you can like look around a big borderline anyone in this

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entire room.

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And I think I like picking the most random.

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I thought, well, I'll just pick whoever's next to me, which hasn't

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happened, turned up to be Nicholas Briggs at that point.

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Go ahead and see. just turn right away.

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Oh, it's Nick.

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And I said, Nick, Rowan Monroe, and then he just rattled off some

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Rowan Monroe packs.

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This is just, you know, it's basically the same thing.

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You know, Raya Monroe has a certain legendary place in the hearts

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of Dr. E Fans.

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So, my feeling is that the Aders of Light isn't necessarily one

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that is thought of a lot either, and it's in a strange position

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isn't it?

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Because it's the last regular episode of Capoldi's run and of

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Moffatt's run.

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And there is a kind of, I don't know, is there a feeling, a sort

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of feeling of things just coming to an end and closing down?

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I guess the way that there was with survival.

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But I have to say that the things that I liked about survival are

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things that I like about Edus of Lied.

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And I guess, I guess it's the fact that she doesn't come to either

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of them as a science fiction writer, but just as a writer.

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And so, so survival works on the logic of, you know, like a Narnia

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story or something, you know, there's a magical world that you're

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transported to where maybe the struggles in your life or things

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are kind of rareified and made kind of real or more important or

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more kind of allegorical or something more representative.

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And then here you have a sort of just so story, isn't it?

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It's like an aetiological myth that explains where, like at one

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level, it just explains, you know, the ghosts and the singing and

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stuff that gets heard on that hill, but it also explains, you know

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where crows get their cawing sound from.

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And so there's a framing story that's all about that with

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characters who don't meet the doctor and interacting with the

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plot.

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And there is also a magical door to another world, isn't there?

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With sort of strange time things and stuff exactly like you would

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see in a Narnia book or in a, in sort of children's fantasy

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literature.

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Yeah, and Rona, for Doctor Who gets that Doctor Who should always

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be watched by and accessible to children.

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So she focusses both of her stories on young people. you know, and

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this one especially, because the young people are all that's left

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and there is a, there's the sort of the anti-war speech in both

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stories and here it's even more poignant because it's the doctor

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talking to children.

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It feels very YA, doesn't it?

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I don't know if John's written any of that.

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I've got friends that do It felt like one of Scott Westefeld's

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books, the Uglies and the Pretties and the New York Times

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bestseller. used to live around the corner.

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Anyway, he did the same thing.

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And everyone's a child of William Golding, aren't we?

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And that we place young people in a setting that without adults

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where adults would be expected and then watch the Malay.

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I think Golding did it 1st and best.

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So when I look at Scott's books and then I looked at this, I

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thought of him, again, in the way that you just watch the

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character and the personalities of these embryos, Capaldi

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beautifully says, find their metal in their form.

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And it's, I love this in good YA.

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And I love this in Doctor Who, the very rare occasion that it does

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it.

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I can really only think of this one actually, and then you'd, oh

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no, there's a few moments.

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Stephen Moffatt does it well too.

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But the child, you see the adult in the child and you see just how

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seriously truthful and present children actually are, and we're

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reminded of the moral core, let alone the ethical one of the

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absolute truth in children and how they're actually much better

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than we are.

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In so many ways.

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And within 45 minutes, I'd forgotten how good this story was and

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how nuanced and layered and how funny and how very Scottish.

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But just those moments with perfect casting and how it is a little

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bit grease, the musical, when you've got Bill pretending to be

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kind of the same age as the other kids around.

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I'm 29?

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certainly not.

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It gets very Joan on Lumley.

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But we will read that she is the same age as the as the ninth

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division and as the as the Celtic tribes.

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Beautiful things.

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In fact, there is a moment, I think, where she realises that she's

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older than them.

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And it is when Lucia says that he's 18 and then suddenly she says

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all right, I'm the grown up here.

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I need to take charge.

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And she, there is a sort of moment where she seems to feel for

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00:13:12.179 --> 00:13:12.600
them.

244
00:13:12.659 --> 00:13:18.179
And it's funny, you know, it only occurs to me now that the main

245
00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:21.059
characters, the main human characters in survival are all children

246
00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:21.899
as well.

247
00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:27.299
And I think the difference is the 27 years that passed since we

248
00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:33.179
watched survival when we 1st watched Eaters of Light and even sort

249
00:13:33.179 --> 00:13:34.440
of further than that.

250
00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:38.460
You know, they weren't young people, they were just people, you

251
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:41.039
know, Mitch and Shreila and all of those people.

252
00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:46.139
They were just our age or my age anyway when I was watching it a

253
00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:46.919
bit younger.

254
00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:52.019
But these kids, they really look convincingly like kids in a way

255
00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:54.960
that doesn't happen all that often.

256
00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.600
I think they really, really worked.

257
00:13:57.659 --> 00:14:03.720
Those young boys, like Simon and Cornelius and things just look

258
00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.039
ridiculously young.

259
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.279
I looked up how old.

260
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:13.139
Well, because I'm slightly thrown in terms of like accepting them

261
00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:17.580
all as kids through one slightly unfortunate coincidence of timing

262
00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:21.179
which is at the moment I'm watching series one of slow horses.

263
00:14:21.899 --> 00:14:24.120
I've heard that's beautiful.

264
00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:24.600
What do you think?

265
00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:26.399
Yeah, it's I'm loving it.

266
00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:30.960
I realised that I kind of like my my diet was dark, but with a

267
00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:34.019
very silly sense of human written by British writers, British

268
00:14:34.019 --> 00:14:34.740
comedy writer.

269
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:35.879
So like that in succession.

270
00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:36.840
That's I love that.

271
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.820
But obviously the slight problem is that our lead loveable

272
00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:45.419
centurion in this is the is the psycho far right kid.

273
00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:50.100
Uh, in series one of slow horses, which episode slightly makes me

274
00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:51.179
kind of, I don't trust him.

275
00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:53.399
It's gonna come at you with an axe any second.

276
00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:57.059
And so I was kind of curious because I was curious as to how old

277
00:14:57.059 --> 00:14:57.360
he was.

278
00:14:57.419 --> 00:15:00.059
And I think he's 33 at the moment.

279
00:15:01.259 --> 00:15:05.940
And so precisely when this was made is what, seven, 8 years ago, is

280
00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:06.360
that right?

281
00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:07.559
I'm trying to figure out the math of it.

282
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:09.000
Yeah, 2017.

283
00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:13.080
Yeah, so it places them around about, so that, yeah, telling you

284
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:14.759
so that place is in about 26, doesn't it?

285
00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:15.539
So when he's recording it.

286
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.639
So that's the same age as Pearl.

287
00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:18.299
I think.

288
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.039
Yeah, or more or less.

289
00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:23.039
To be fair, he still looks like a child now, even in this like

290
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:23.580
older one.

291
00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:27.240
He looks ridiculously young. which is going to be great for

292
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:28.019
casting for him.

293
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.440
But, um, but also it's actually, it's always quite nice when you

294
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.980
see somebody like that where it's such a different part in terms

295
00:15:34.980 --> 00:15:37.019
of everything about it and it's quite nice.

296
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.600
Every now and then you meet someone you kind of reminded their

297
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:43.139
actors because there is a degree to which now people are slightly

298
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:45.600
boxed into playing the same thing and it's really good to see

299
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.120
someone where they've got that sort of range.

300
00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:50.340
It's like saying, um, is it Phil?

301
00:15:50.340 --> 00:15:53.220
Dunphy out of Ted Lasso.

302
00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:58.019
Um, who plays the sort of the little Pudleyan striker in that. and

303
00:15:58.019 --> 00:15:59.759
he, is he Geordie?

304
00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:00.419
I can't remember.

305
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.080
And, uh, and then he, but he's just like posh RP when he's taking

306
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.360
around and it's really, it's really disconcerting because you now

307
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:09.539
sort of expect everyone to just be sounding exactly like they

308
00:16:09.539 --> 00:16:10.980
sound in the 1st thing you see them in.

309
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:15.120
Yeah, I was recently watching a Graham Norton interview with Henry

310
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.139
Cavill publicising a DC film and Tom Holland publicising a Marvel

311
00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:22.860
film, and of course, neither of them sound like Clark Kent or

312
00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:23.519
Peter Parker.

313
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:27.539
Yeah, yeah.

314
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.039
I'm really impressed by the cast in this one.

315
00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:37.919
And especially for me, it's like the Picts look even younger than

316
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:38.759
the Romans.

317
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:43.679
But I think the actors playing car and band are both, I think

318
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:44.820
one's 18, one's 20.

319
00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:50.340
The actress playing car, Rebecca Benson already had a big series

320
00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:53.700
under her belt and was talking to her parents, but telling them, oh

321
00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:55.980
yeah, I'm going off to do this other thing for the BBC.

322
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.299
No, no, it's not Doctor Who.

323
00:16:57.539 --> 00:17:01.259
Because she knew they'd be terribly excited and want to know

324
00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:02.340
everything, you know.

325
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.559
So we've got a really experienced, talented, young and vital

326
00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:08.279
cast.

327
00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:10.980
She is so magnificent.

328
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.059
That thing where there's a moment where Bill turns up and hears

329
00:17:15.059 --> 00:17:18.359
her and she's saying something about honouring her parents and

330
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.420
stuff like that and there's a little indulgent smile from Bill, who

331
00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:24.059
doesn't quite know what's going on yet, and then she approaches

332
00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:29.099
and realises that she's honouring her parents who are dead and

333
00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:31.380
that, you know, things are much more sombre than she sort of

334
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.220
thought they were.

335
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.680
But she is still sort of smiling indulgently.

336
00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:38.940
And then Car gets up and just screams at her in the most sort of

337
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:43.440
demented actress way possible, like absolutely throwing herself

338
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:48.660
into it in the most amazing way, imaginable, just screaming and

339
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:51.960
running at her in a way that's absolutely, truly terrifying.

340
00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:53.279
Like, she's so good.

341
00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:59.099
And of course, she gets to give the big speech about the Romans.

342
00:17:59.099 --> 00:18:05.039
And it's a speech that, you know, is hugely important, I think, to

343
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.400
our understanding of what's going on in the story. you know, she

344
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:14.519
could equally be talking about the monsters as well. you know, the

345
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:16.980
monsters that are going to swarm out and eat the sun and the stars

346
00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:17.700
and things.

347
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:22.619
But it starts with the Romans, and of course, it's a speech by

348
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:28.559
Tacitus, from Tacitus as Agricola, and it's a speech put into the

349
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:36.359
mouth of the 1st Caledonian character that we actually have heard

350
00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:36.839
of.

351
00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:40.200
So this is a battle that takes place in about 83 or 84.

352
00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.079
Tacitus is writing about it in the 90s.

353
00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:47.940
The character's called Kalgakus, and he obviously speaks for much

354
00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:52.200
longer than she does because it's, you know, a Roman historical

355
00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:52.920
monograph.

356
00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:55.619
He gets to go on for sort of chapter and chapter, but she

357
00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:58.140
basically gives the cliff notes of it.

358
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.640
And of course, that, quote, they make a desert and they call it

359
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.500
peace, is terribly famous, maybe one of Tacitus's most famous

360
00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:08.460
sayings.

361
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:13.140
So she gets to, you know, she's a few decades later, isn't she?

362
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:19.079
I think the ninth legion disappears in the early 2nd century, like

363
00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.000
11, 17 or something.

364
00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:25.980
So she's a bit later, but she is quoting Tacitus and sort of very

365
00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:29.819
very famous for Bear in what is a pretty spectacular speech.

366
00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:34.619
One of the reasons I know this is that I was actually teaching

367
00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:43.440
that text to my year 12 Latin extension class and when she started

368
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.619
talking like that, I said, wait, I'm sure that I've heard this

369
00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:47.519
before, what's going on.

370
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:52.859
So it was as I was teaching it in 2017 that I 1st heard deliver

371
00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:53.400
that speech.

372
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:06.720
I've read the novelisation in preparation for this podcast.

373
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:10.200
I thought about that, but then I don't have a copy of it.

374
00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:13.799
I slightly lost track of which novelisations I've gotten read.

375
00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:16.140
So it's sort of slightly tricksy to get into ahead of that.

376
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:19.619
Yeah, I'm in that position at the moment because I've got 2 of the

377
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:22.680
3 tenant special novelisations and every time I'm in the bookshop

378
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.200
I'm like, I've forgotten which one don't I have?

379
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:32.819
But no, it's it's quite interesting because A lot of what Ronan

380
00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:35.279
Monroe adds is backstory for car.

381
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:40.140
Also, she kind of just reinstates a lot of what had to get cut out

382
00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:40.619
for budget.

383
00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.460
So for instance, when Bill 1st runs away, She's meant to fall into

384
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:47.039
a river to get away from the creature and the river carries her to

385
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.160
the cave and obviously someone in the production office said, or

386
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:51.299
she can fall down a hole.

387
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.240
But I think 2 of the biggest things it adds is it adds sort of car

388
00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.720
guarding at the thing and hearing the coming battle, it shows us

389
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.220
the battle, which, of course, Doctor Who.

390
00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:05.640
I mean, Game of Thrones could barely afford to do that battle, let

391
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.940
alone Doctor Who, and it shows Carl's thought process with letting

392
00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:11.039
the creature out, et cetera, et cetera.

393
00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:16.259
But a big thing it adds is Lucius is in a relationship with one of

394
00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:16.740
the other boys.

395
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:18.000
Oh, okay.

396
00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:21.539
And it sort of built, and so instead of having the whole bill

397
00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:24.539
thing going up our way, only like girls and all the legionnaires

398
00:21:24.539 --> 00:21:26.400
going, oh, right, yes, we know what that is.

399
00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:26.940
Yeah, we know.

400
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:27.599
Okay, that's fine.

401
00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:31.980
Instead of having that, it has this whole relationship budding

402
00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:35.940
between these 2 and then, of course, Sextus sacrifices himself to

403
00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:37.380
save the rest of it.

404
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.680
Or the rest of the baggage handlers before the story.

405
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.880
But also, like, the doctor and Bill's whole argument about the

406
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.000
legion is actually really quite bitter.

407
00:21:48.059 --> 00:21:52.859
Oh, like instead of yeah, instead of being this fun light opening

408
00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:54.420
of, I know, I know, I know.

409
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.900
No, I know, and I'm going down here and I'm going to bring back a

410
00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:00.180
Roman and the doctor's like, well, I'm going to go over here and

411
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:01.559
find a pile of corpses.

412
00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:03.599
And it's like, really?

413
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.720
They both manage it, don't they actually?

414
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:09.180
Yeah, yeah. that the thing I liked was that they both achieve what

415
00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:10.079
they set up to achieve.

416
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.839
Yeah, it just really shocked me to the point that I hadn't seen

417
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.119
this episode since 2017.

418
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.359
So I decided I'm going to read the book 1st and then watch the TV

419
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:21.960
version.

420
00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:23.160
I'm reading those 1st few pages.

421
00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:25.500
I'm like, it wasn't like this on telly, and thankfully it wasn't

422
00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:28.079
because I don't think you could just get that level of anger

423
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:29.700
between Pearl and Peter.

424
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.640
It doesn't work with the tone of the rest of the story anyway.

425
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.660
There's one or 2 moments where you sort of think that the dialogue

426
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:41.579
is kind of pre-cuddly Capoldi from season 10.

427
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:46.619
And so it's just possible that she wrote this without fully

428
00:22:46.619 --> 00:22:48.960
knowing exactly where things were going.

429
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.019
Isn't our doll in it and our dolls in the novelisation?

430
00:22:52.019 --> 00:22:53.160
No dolls in the novelisation.

431
00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:53.519
Yeah.

432
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.160
Because, I mean, it is that sort of tone that we've kind of

433
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.519
reached where it is, you know, they're ribbing each other and it's

434
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:01.140
a little bit more friendly and stuff.

435
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:03.359
Why isn't a doll in his dressing gown?

436
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.619
Because the argument between the doctor and Bill has dragged him

437
00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:10.440
away from the box set he was about to watch?.

438
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:15.000
There is a, there is a faint sense with it that it does feel

439
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.920
slightly like the, it's a tiny bit crow body noddle. that, because

440
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.740
it doesn't really do anything apart from just stand there and say

441
00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:27.119
uh, funny lines and it would, in terms of that structure of, yeah

442
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.119
the bill goes off, to look one thing, the doctor goes off to look

443
00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:30.539
for the other.

444
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.859
It's kind of a bit, it feels like that works better if it's just

445
00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:36.059
one on one on one.

446
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:40.019
So I feel it probably was written initially as one on one in that

447
00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:42.240
in those initial stages where Nodo wasn't going to be in every

448
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.140
episode before they decided.

449
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:43.980
I mean, don't get me wrong.

450
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:46.440
I enjoy all of the asides in all of the bits, but you can sort of

451
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.779
also, it feels like you're not always going to go off with one of

452
00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:50.400
them and leave the other one to fend for themselves.

453
00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:52.079
He should go with Bill.

454
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:57.059
But it goes to the doctor because it makes more plot sense for him

455
00:23:57.059 --> 00:23:59.700
to go with the doctor so you get the things like the time slippage

456
00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:00.059
stuff.

457
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.700
Um, you can illustrate that.

458
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:07.980
Yeah, so yeah, I think we can see the behind the scenes mechanics

459
00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:09.960
there, if you know about them, if you're looking for them, but

460
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:13.500
then, you know, I don't I've only thought of that really now.

461
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:15.059
I didn't think of that when I was watching it.

462
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.400
It's only when you're like trying to sit back and analyse it, which

463
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.119
is an example, I think of these things being done well.

464
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:24.480
Um, because, you know, I'm always very aware.

465
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.660
I've talked about this, things live away, if you're writing

466
00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:30.779
something that isn't, I think, borderline anything other than a

467
00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:31.019
novel.

468
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.839
Uh, you don't get to write in the perfect crucible where you can

469
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:34.920
just write whatever the hell you want.

470
00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:35.400
Yeah.

471
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:39.000
You have to be aware of other factors and change things.

472
00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:41.039
So it's like, you know, in particular if you're dealing with

473
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.460
actors and schedules and as you say, like being washed down the

474
00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:44.640
stream.

475
00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:49.079
Um, And that isn't, isn't in itself a problem because that's just

476
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:49.980
how writing works.

477
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:52.680
It should be hard to notice it and particularly when you're

478
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:53.099
watching it.

479
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.920
And I think that there's an example of being integrated well is

480
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:57.900
that you don't really notice when you're watching it, then that's

481
00:24:57.900 --> 00:25:00.599
the thing. only if you know about it afterwards and you're

482
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.759
analysing it and you go, oh, that was probably added in afterwards

483
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:03.180
wasn't it?

484
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:05.519
Because it doesn't really change or do anything other than like

485
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:08.099
giving some funny lines here and there and everywhere because it's

486
00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:10.200
been integrated well enough and written well enough that you don't

487
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:10.440
really mind.

488
00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:15.359
I guess, I guess maybe the most obvious be it is where Capaldi's

489
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.859
gone for 2 days and he comes back expecting our doll to have done

490
00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:24.720
something about Bill, but obviously we can't have any progress on

491
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:25.319
that front.

492
00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:29.220
And so we just get a throwaway line of, oh, you know, we tried to

493
00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:30.900
look, but then we stopped or whatever.

494
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:36.779
I think she's been lost and that's perhaps the bit that is where

495
00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:38.519
it's kind of most obvious.

496
00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:41.460
But yeah, I mean, one of the reasons that I love television so

497
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:44.700
much is that the writers don't get to do everything that they want

498
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:48.660
to do and sometimes they have to do something inventive to come up

499
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:52.740
with a solution for a weird problem that's imposed on them from

500
00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:53.160
the outside.

501
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:54.900
Yeah.

502
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:59.819
Straints are a really good generator of creativity, I think.

503
00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:04.319
Yeah, I mean, I mean, with Doctor Who, you know, you've got cast

504
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.140
members turning over all the time, you've got, you know

505
00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:10.980
regeneration, you've got people arriving and leaving and all of

506
00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:11.940
that stuff really works.

507
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.000
I mean, we've already talked quite a bit about how the departure

508
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:21.720
of Jenna and the introduction of of Pearl has given Moffatt and

509
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.440
the writers something really interesting to do, a real proper shot

510
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.539
in the arm at the end of this year, I think.

511
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.720
On the topic of Matt Lucas's not all.

512
00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:36.180
We can talk more about this later, but the missy scenes at the end

513
00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:38.940
were added when the running order of episodes was changed.

514
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:43.440
And so a lot of sort of funny lines were cut.

515
00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:47.819
And I think my possibly my favourite funny line of nardoles that

516
00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:51.420
was lost was at the moment where the picks catch up to them

517
00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:55.019
outside the cairn, and they all gather round Nardol with their

518
00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:56.700
swords and whatnot.

519
00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:58.859
Nadol was to say, no, please don't.

520
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:03.720
I'm allergic to swords, spears, knives, anything pointy, really.

521
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:06.839
And I just read that and I'm like, one, that's a villa line.

522
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:12.720
Yeah, just reading through the complete history and it's like, this

523
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.079
line was cut. and every 3rd line is a joke from Matt Lucas.

524
00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:20.220
I think the thing that's retained is actually really interesting

525
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:26.039
because it's that weird thing where he's clearly been telling the

526
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.119
Picts all of the stories of the great nautical mysteries of

527
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:31.259
history.

528
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:35.880
And he tells the story of the Mary Celeste, where the Ezemodon

529
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:41.160
ambassador has come down and eaten the entire crew, because that's

530
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:43.799
how his people communicate with one another.

531
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:49.740
And I think, you know, in a story where the real proper villains

532
00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:54.539
like the proper actual monsters are going to swarm out and eat the

533
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:58.380
sun and the stars and things, having a story where someone has

534
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.019
just sort of choose their way through the entire crew of the Mary

535
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:05.339
Celeste is a pretty fun kind of commentary on that.

536
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:05.940
I think.

537
00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:10.619
And I'm sure we can find ways of nominally screwing the continuity

538
00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:12.359
of that with the chase if we really want to.

539
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:14.039
I don't want to.

540
00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:18.240
Well, they, I mean, they only jumped off and then they got back

541
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:18.420
on.

542
00:28:18.539 --> 00:28:19.500
Then they got back on.

543
00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:21.539
They got eaten by, I think.

544
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:27.240
In fact, I think it's probably a slightly less harrowing phase for

545
00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:31.200
the poor people on the Mary Celeste rather than being chased by

546
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.980
Daleks and that woman with the baby doing a hilarious comedy jump

547
00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:36.299
into the water and stuff.

548
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:39.960
Dennis Chenery with a BBC Press on beer.

549
00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:46.559
I also think like one of the interesting things about it.

550
00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:53.400
I've spent, I've spent all day editing our episode on the pyramid

551
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:56.940
at the end of the world and that's why Peter Harness and Moffatt

552
00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:00.059
and there's a lot going on and there's some complex plotting and

553
00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:03.720
things, you know, depend very closely on each other and there's

554
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:05.160
all sorts of things going on.

555
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:10.319
And what I think is interesting here is that they've given Ronan

556
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:14.940
Monroe essentially 37 minutes because the missy scene at the end

557
00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:16.500
takes 5 minutes.

558
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:22.859
And she tells a story in that time that has a framing device and

559
00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:28.740
in which we really are just coming in at the very end, I think.

560
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:35.579
And one of the things that she does is she just writes something

561
00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:39.839
appropriate for the amount of time that she has, just the

562
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:40.859
simplicity of it.

563
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:45.839
You know, the 2 of them splitting up, each of the meeting, uh, you

564
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.740
know, one of the factions, which is sort of classic part one

565
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:53.039
behaviour, I guess, then getting together, then persuading

566
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:56.759
everyone to work together and then seeing off the monster in a way

567
00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:59.700
where there's no particular kind of reversal or nothing

568
00:29:59.700 --> 00:30:02.339
particularly unexpected happens, you know?

569
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.920
Yeah, it's relatively straightforward.

570
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.400
It might be why I don't think it sits terribly strongly in the

571
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:09.059
memory for people.

572
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:14.460
Um, not, not to say it's bad, but it's that thing where I, I've uh

573
00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:17.759
an inclination that, there's something to feel like it hits, it

574
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.220
probably is like the shorter, the length, the higher the concept.

575
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:22.380
I think that's why it's suffered in the reception.

576
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.380
I think you got an audience appreciation of 81, didn't it, at the

577
00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:30.119
time, but only a 30.3 rate on success in other ways.

578
00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:34.740
But this is how you structure successful YA, and knowing how well

579
00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:38.880
Monroe writes, and looking at the structure of this again, compared

580
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:39.839
to the stories around it.

581
00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:43.500
I can see why it's a little archipelago of its own.

582
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:46.200
And I am thinking of William Golding when I say that.

583
00:30:46.259 --> 00:30:51.720
It's how you do structure good success, you know, successful young

584
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:54.900
adult fiction, and you plot it in a linear way, but then you throw

585
00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:56.880
a whole lot of emotional curveballs.

586
00:30:57.480 --> 00:30:58.799
And that's exactly what she's done.

587
00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:02.819
So the monster is, you know, the grown up version of Vicky's mate

588
00:31:02.819 --> 00:31:03.480
Sandy.

589
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:06.299
He'll follow you around the room and make suggestions.

590
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:07.920
And, um, well, it wasn't.

591
00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:10.140
There's nothing really surprising in all of this.

592
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.259
And other than the way it was spun, and the beautiful way the

593
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:16.140
young actors were interposed against each other.

594
00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:19.140
All I remembered from this, the 1st viewing, when I watched them

595
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:23.220
all just once, was the scene in the cave between the Roman kids

596
00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:24.240
and the picked kids.

597
00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:27.119
And again, it's the most striking scene in this for me as well.

598
00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:30.480
Lots of shades, and it's not just the name car, lots of shades of

599
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:31.740
unearthly child, bro.

600
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.440
I really wish Eileen Way had been around to just simply be

601
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:38.400
hovering around in the background sketching on the walls, you know

602
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.980
making Philip Clark excited, all those sorts of things, you know

603
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:42.599
we needed an icon, didn't we?

604
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:44.099
We needed a gay icon in this one.

605
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:49.319
Funny you should say that because up until about draft five, there

606
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:52.980
was a grandmother who had also survived because she hadn't gone

607
00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:53.940
off to fight.

608
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:59.400
And, you know, the latest warrior who had burst out of the can and

609
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:02.819
said, you know, I need someone else to take over, had been her

610
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:04.140
lover 60 years ago.

611
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.140
But yeah, she was exiled.

612
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.640
She also doesn't appear in the novelisation.

613
00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:10.019
So there you go.

614
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.539
There shall be no fire. except they said there must be.

615
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:18.720
Because as I understand it, the normalisations can't veer away too

616
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.279
far from what was transmitted.

617
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:25.079
I think they've still got to basically the same story, but yeah

618
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:28.380
they're allowed to expand, but not change, I think, or something

619
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:28.740
like that.

620
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:29.819
Yeah, I can't remember the details.

621
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:34.619
Yeah, that might explain why a lot of her changes are either from

622
00:32:34.619 --> 00:32:37.680
earlier versions of the script or embellishing on the backstory

623
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:39.119
rather than changing the narrative.

624
00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:44.160
And it's possible if the old woman didn't last many drafts if she

625
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.480
didn't get, you know, quite as much development as the other

626
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:49.980
elements in the story.

627
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:53.819
And by the time she had a finished story, there was nowhere to put

628
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:54.000
her.

629
00:32:54.059 --> 00:32:55.200
Oh, yeah.

630
00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:58.380
But there was that idea that we were going to see someone who had

631
00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:02.099
been in there fighting for just, you know, minutes of their own

632
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:05.519
time and a whole lifetime of everyone else's.

633
00:33:05.579 --> 00:33:06.059
Yes.

634
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:18.180
So the monster itself is actually a thing called the Pictish Beast

635
00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:27.180
which is a creature that is seen all the time in those sort of

636
00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:29.099
picked-ish carvings.

637
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.559
And we actually do see it.

638
00:33:31.619 --> 00:33:37.019
It's visible on some of the, you know, the prop ones that are

639
00:33:37.019 --> 00:33:41.339
there as part of the can, particularly towards the end.

640
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.700
And then in the last scene where Judy and her brother are there.

641
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:50.519
We see that there is actually a picture of the kids, you know, a

642
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:54.000
carving of the kids fighting this beast.

643
00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:57.839
But if you look it up, the Pictnish Beast, it's got a Wikipedia

644
00:33:57.839 --> 00:33:59.880
page, there's lots and lots of images and stuff.

645
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:04.619
And so she's taken a creature from mythology that I think we know

646
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:05.700
nothing else about.

647
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.680
You know, it's a quadruped of some kind.

648
00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:10.440
It doesn't seem to be a dragon or anything.

649
00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:14.880
And it looks very much like the monster that we see.

650
00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:17.519
Giving it a Google.

651
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:18.360
As we speak.

652
00:34:18.420 --> 00:34:21.239
I had a, I, guts were rumbling away.

653
00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:24.539
It wasn't just the threat of all that deep fried Scottishness when

654
00:34:24.539 --> 00:34:25.139
this came on.

655
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:29.280
First and 2nd time that there must be much darker lines of

656
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.619
Scottishness in the law to this.

657
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:33.300
So you just confirmed another one of them.

658
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.519
Like the picked carvings.

659
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.639
And she's right, Monroe was right, and she's had, I really hoped

660
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:39.360
they'd get that right.

661
00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:40.019
And they did.

662
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.099
Yeah, yeah.

663
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.519
Yeah, because we've got the thing, which is the sort of same trick

664
00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:47.460
that we have at the beginning of the end of time, part one, where

665
00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:52.199
we get to see the TARDIS carved into, you know, the stone in the

666
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.900
same way that it's in the stained glass we know of the church.

667
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:58.139
Glorious reappearance of Roberta Tovey after so many years

668
00:34:58.619 --> 00:35:01.500
hovering behind a monolith.

669
00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:02.579
I think it's her.

670
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:04.139
I mean, we haven't seen a sense of you.

671
00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:05.280
Tragically, no.

672
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:14.699
Rona does say when she's describing the Picts that the actors must

673
00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:17.940
use Scottish accents, but not city Scottish accents.

674
00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:22.199
Somewhere on the intelligible side of Doric is her description.

675
00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:24.239
So not Dundee.

676
00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:26.699
Have you ever been to Dundee?

677
00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:27.659
Have you heard them?

678
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:28.739
John, have you ever heard them?

679
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.219
Yeah, I think I have been to Dundee.

680
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:32.460
Yeah.

681
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:33.960
I don't think I went out much, though.

682
00:35:34.019 --> 00:35:34.559
I was in a play.

683
00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:38.940
It's like eating an entire fruitcake covered in alcohol.

684
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.480
They can't, it's unintelligible completely.

685
00:35:42.539 --> 00:35:45.300
Brian Cox, you know, the actor who is in succession whenever he's

686
00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:46.920
interviewed and actually does his own accent.

687
00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:48.119
You can just say, what?

688
00:35:48.179 --> 00:35:49.320
What?

689
00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:51.360
He's an ood, isn't he?

690
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:52.380
Yes, yes.

691
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:53.880
Brian Cox player.

692
00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:56.340
Grandaddy Ood in time.

693
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.300
God, so we don't.

694
00:35:57.300 --> 00:35:58.019
The voice only.

695
00:35:58.079 --> 00:35:59.519
That was a coup.

696
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:02.400
It was the physicist Brian Cox in the makeup.

697
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:04.440
No, I'm actually talking about the Hector.

698
00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:09.780
So while we're speaking about the language, of course, suddenly we

699
00:36:09.780 --> 00:36:14.460
get the same discovery that we get in Mask of Man Dragara, only

700
00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:20.460
this time Pearl realises she is speaking Latin because the boy can

701
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:21.420
understand her.

702
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.559
It's Simon, I think, the boy at the beginning.

703
00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:30.659
And she works out because again, her character is incredibly genre

704
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:33.059
savvy, she can spot a mind wipe.

705
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.579
You know, when she sees one in the pilot.

706
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:40.500
And so she works out without needing to be told that it's the

707
00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:45.119
doctor and the telepathic circuits of the tarnis and things that

708
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:46.800
makes them intelligible to one another.

709
00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:51.360
And so there's even a reference to the boys speaking Latin, but

710
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:54.900
they just sound like they're English and then car and band

711
00:36:54.900 --> 00:37:00.119
speaking with Scottish accents and their language being whatever

712
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:01.920
the hell they're talking, isn't it?

713
00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:05.159
I think Pearl doesn't even know what language they'd be speaking

714
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:05.699
at this point.

715
00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:06.539
Yeah.

716
00:37:06.659 --> 00:37:10.440
And another Matt Lucas line is cut there when everyone's saying, so

717
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:12.059
you sound like you're speaking English.

718
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:13.079
You sound like you're speaking English.

719
00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:15.179
No, it's meant to look very puzzles and say, what's English?

720
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:18.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah So, and so that we then find out for the past 10

721
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.659
episodes, Nardo's been speaking Marinian or something.

722
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:27.780
But then there's a little thing where she takes it further where

723
00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:32.699
they hear each other talking and they realise that they're all

724
00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:37.860
children and on one level it's the doctor says that he experiences

725
00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:41.159
everyone like that when he hears people speaking, everyone sounds

726
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:42.059
like a child.

727
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:48.239
But here it's this situation where, you know, they're enemies

728
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:53.039
who've slaughtered one another, essentially, and they just see one

729
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:57.300
another and hear one another speak, and suddenly they realise that

730
00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:58.559
they're just children.

731
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:03.059
And Capaldi gets another speech, which I think may be better than

732
00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:08.400
the speech at the end of the Zygon inversion about not having a

733
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:12.539
war about growing up because he does it in about 2 lines

734
00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:14.699
beautifully written by Ron Monroe.

735
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:19.619
And I think also because his scenes with the picks, especially

736
00:38:19.619 --> 00:38:22.559
even though there is some of the grumpiness there, it's written

737
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.260
and performed with a lot more compassion than we're necessarily

738
00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:30.059
used to. there's a bit in the novel where this basically four-year

739
00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:33.360
old keeps coming up and say, well, I, you know, I can scare, I can

740
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.340
scare the creature, and I can do this, and I can do this, and

741
00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:38.699
finally the doctor says, right, you go hide behind that rock, and

742
00:38:38.699 --> 00:38:41.519
you scream because he won't be able to tell where that's coming

743
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:44.579
from, and that's the scariest thing when you hear a screaming, you

744
00:38:44.579 --> 00:38:45.420
don't know where it's coming from.

745
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:47.880
And the kid runs off behind the rock and the doctor just goes

746
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:48.960
delusional.

747
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.619
But, you know, even so it's that whole thing of, I'm going to give

748
00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:56.400
everyone a job to do.

749
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:12.780
I'm gonna come clean and say, I didn't think much of this one at

750
00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:14.159
all when I first watched it.

751
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:18.719
And there was a particular scene where my brain just went.

752
00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:20.039
I'm jumping off.

753
00:39:20.099 --> 00:39:22.800
I'm no longer on board, and I don't know what it was watching it

754
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:23.099
again.

755
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:26.820
It's all very clear, but it's after the doctor has left the can

756
00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:30.119
and going looking for Bill and he just walks into the middle of a

757
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:33.360
forest and car is walking the other way and just part of me went

758
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.440
oh, so they're just both walking in the forest at this specific

759
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.880
time to have this conversation.

760
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:41.519
I'm like, this is like the worst parts of Silver Nemesis.

761
00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:45.360
But it now actually it makes perfect sense.

762
00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:48.539
I think it's lovely.

763
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.920
The ending, originally I found mawkish, but I actually now find it

764
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.179
really moving, where they do decide to work together.

765
00:39:57.179 --> 00:40:00.480
And it's not a matter of, you know, the pick saying, you know, we

766
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:02.099
forgive you for invading our land.

767
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:05.400
It's a matter of we can all do something right here.

768
00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:06.719
Yeah.

769
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:07.260
Yeah.

770
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:11.219
I mean, in a way, the monsters are something just sort of bigger

771
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:14.280
and worse than the Romans, but are essentially doing what the

772
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:16.440
Romans themselves did.

773
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.559
And we had car tell us that.

774
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.840
But these kids have seen everything around them destroyed as a

775
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:25.260
result.

776
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:29.159
And so there's nothing sort of political or ideological about them

777
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:33.179
working together and there is something about them understanding

778
00:40:33.179 --> 00:40:33.659
each other.

779
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:38.699
And I do think the best bit of that is Lucius looking back. at

780
00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:43.500
Bill as he sort of heads into the into the rift thing.

781
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.400
I think that's really sweet and, you know, he's not going off just

782
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:48.539
to sacrifice himself.

783
00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:50.639
He does have a cheeky grin as well.

784
00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:51.599
I think it's very sweet.

785
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:56.400
Yeah, I think it's uh, it's good to have one of those endings

786
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:00.539
where you can often end up with the sort of the self-sacrificial

787
00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:00.780
ending.

788
00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:03.539
Uh, the person got in there going, oh, I'm going to fling myself

789
00:41:03.539 --> 00:41:03.900
into this.

790
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:08.820
It felt, um, very earned in this, and it felt like it served a, a

791
00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:11.159
grander person, not least because it isn't just one person doing

792
00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:11.400
it.

793
00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:14.699
Uh, you know, atoning for crimes.

794
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:18.900
It's not really about that in this version of it, is it?

795
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:23.940
It's about sort of a shared humanity more than anything else, I

796
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:26.280
suppose. is that they're doing it together because they are

797
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:28.260
basically, in effect, the same, that's found out they're the same

798
00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:31.079
because they can speak the same language at each other and it's

799
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:32.579
you know, it's a unification thing.

800
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.340
It's not even, yeah, it feels weird to slightly call it a

801
00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:37.380
sacrifice in a way because it's if anything a moment of, you know

802
00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:38.460
actual triumph, really.

803
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.760
It's actually funny, and we'll talk about it in a minute that

804
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:43.019
missy comments on it.

805
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.659
Like she kind of, she's been watching it.

806
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:48.840
Remember, she's been watching it on telly while they've all been

807
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:53.579
you know, out there and she actually says something about how the

808
00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:56.579
sort of big self-sacrifice at the end isn't to your usual

809
00:41:56.579 --> 00:41:57.179
standard.

810
00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:59.940
And the doctor comes back and says, no, it wasn't that.

811
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.159
And there was music as well.

812
00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:03.599
And I think that's really great.

813
00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:05.820
I love to learn about the memory.

814
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:09.719
Yeah, the fact that the musicians go in there to defeat the

815
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:10.800
monsters as well.

816
00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:14.880
And then the musicians are what Bill hears as she gets into the

817
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.199
TARDIS and then what, 2000 years later, 2 years.

818
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:20.880
Yeah, but it's over years.

819
00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:24.059
Yeah, when she when she goes to the can.

820
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.820
And I don't have a slash next to Ken.

821
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.480
It's wonderful actually how it's the music that Matt Lucas's

822
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:33.300
character is already roundly dissed for being worse than jazz

823
00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:34.800
great.

824
00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:35.880
One of the best lines.

825
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:36.719
There's some great lines.

826
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:47.340
So Moffat helps himself to 5 minutes of the ending.

827
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:48.539
How do we feel about that?

828
00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:54.239
Yeah, so this came about because originally the running order was

829
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:58.500
lie of the land, Eaters of Light, Empress of Mars, where Missy

830
00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:01.860
comes to rescue everyone, which leads into world enough and time.

831
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:02.400
Right.

832
00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:06.480
And I don't know exactly why they swapped it, but it was probably

833
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:10.019
to avoid having a bunch of earthbound episodes in a row.

834
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.539
And it may have been a scheduling thing.

835
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.960
I think Charles Palmer does this one and he shot some earlier

836
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:16.559
episodes.

837
00:43:16.619 --> 00:43:19.980
I got the impression that it may have had something to do.

838
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:20.760
Possibly that as well.

839
00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:21.119
Yeah.

840
00:43:21.179 --> 00:43:21.659
Yeah.

841
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:28.139
As for the material itself, it's very good, I'm only sorry it came

842
00:43:28.139 --> 00:43:31.920
at the expense of some of the funnier gags in the episode.

843
00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:35.820
Do we know that they were Monroe's gags or were they Moffat's

844
00:43:35.820 --> 00:43:36.179
gags?

845
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.440
From what I can see, Moffatt's main contribution to the script is

846
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:43.260
actually the discussion about sexuality.

847
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.440
No, I didn't know that I did not expect.

848
00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:50.159
Now, Moffat didn't write it, but he briefed Monroe on, you know, we

849
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:54.599
do like, because Moffat does one of the great queer baiting things

850
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:57.360
this season of he says he's never going to talk about Bill being a

851
00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:58.559
lesbian and then he can't stop.

852
00:43:58.619 --> 00:43:59.820
Yeah, it's wonderful.

853
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:01.199
Although he doesn't actually use the word.

854
00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:02.940
No, no, he doesn't use the word.

855
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.440
But no, he never does.

856
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:08.099
Yeah, but I gather Moffat said to Rona, I'd like a scene sort of

857
00:44:08.099 --> 00:44:11.460
shaped like this to talk about Bill's character and Rona then

858
00:44:11.460 --> 00:44:12.059
writes it.

859
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:13.260
It's a lovely scene.

860
00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:14.760
It is pretty great, isn't it?

861
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.699
Because in her 1st Doctor Who story 27 years earlier.

862
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.719
There's all this kind of sublimated sort of sapphic energy and the

863
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:24.000
moon and all of that sort of stuff.

864
00:44:24.059 --> 00:44:26.880
There is the relationship between Kara.

865
00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:32.880
Oh my goodness, Kara and Kara, Kara and Ace, you know, so there's

866
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:39.000
there's sort of all these queer subtexts, I think, available in

867
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:40.380
survival.

868
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:44.400
And then 27 years later, she gets to write more explicitly about

869
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:48.059
you know, a woman who fancies only other women.

870
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:49.260
And I think that is pretty great.

871
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:55.800
I think, um, there's something of a, a, a, a, B in my bonnet about

872
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:57.900
a certain degree of representation because I kept watching TV

873
00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:04.619
shows where a character's uh, sexuality uh, was only ever alluded

874
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:05.760
to if it became a plot point.

875
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:11.159
So, um, or actually the better way of putting it is that, um, if

876
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.039
it was like an ensemble show and the characters go, if it got to

877
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:16.920
being their episode, it felt like they were only allowed a story

878
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:18.179
about homophobia or coming out.

879
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.639
Yeah, exactly. miserable.

880
00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:23.519
And that annoys me. going to go, well, a straight character can

881
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:24.360
have a story about anything.

882
00:45:24.420 --> 00:45:26.820
But if you're a gay character, these are the only things you're

883
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:27.000
allowed.

884
00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:31.380
So I think when Moffat's not really addressing sexuality.

885
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:32.579
It's mainly in that sense.

886
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:35.699
It's never really kind of making it an issue plot.

887
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:39.539
No. uh, but becau, but then sometimes it'll just come up in

888
00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:43.079
conversation, natural, and I found that writing very sort of, um

889
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:47.940
diverse-ish characters, uh, in audio sometimes, but just, you know

890
00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:49.500
even if you don't do with big finish.

891
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:51.960
Yeah, every, yeah, in particular, I've noticed it with Rebecca

892
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:55.619
Root's character, Tanya, is trans, uh, that you kind of go and go

893
00:45:55.619 --> 00:45:57.659
to go, well, you won't mention it that often.

894
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:59.760
And then I think I've written maybe like 4 episodes and it turns

895
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:01.199
up in the dialogue in 3 of them.

896
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:03.059
Yeah, it worked really well, John.

897
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:04.559
Oh, thank you.

898
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:07.199
I hope to, but it was one thing to be that sense ago.

899
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:08.880
It's never going to be about that, but then every now and then

900
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.280
there's a moment where it comes up where it's relevant for her to

901
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:13.500
mention it and it feels silly not to.

902
00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:17.280
Well, she didn't have the pope and penny in her front room though

903
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:17.699
did she?

904
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:18.420
Yeah, yeah.

905
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:20.460
Or the, what is it?

906
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:22.920
The Secretary General of the United Nations.

907
00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:24.420
Which is really great.

908
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:25.860
Well, she works for Torchwood.

909
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:26.519
What happened?

910
00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:31.019
In fact, one of the things that has to be done in that very, very

911
00:46:31.019 --> 00:46:34.320
1st scene between the doctor and Bill in the pilot is that we need

912
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:37.019
to mention that she's a lesbian.

913
00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:41.699
And the way that it's done is by her telling that story about

914
00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:45.900
giving the extra chips to the attractive girl when she's serving

915
00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:50.940
her in the university cafeteria and then how she gets fat.

916
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.380
And then she says, I don't know where I was going with that

917
00:46:55.380 --> 00:46:55.800
story.

918
00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:57.900
Like the story is clearly only there.

919
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:00.780
So that she can tell the doctor that she's a lesbian.

920
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:03.300
But then she says, I don't know where I was going with that

921
00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:03.719
story.

922
00:47:03.780 --> 00:47:07.380
I guess I thought something would turn up, which I think is

923
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:09.420
actually really pretty great.

924
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:15.300
To get back to, well, the question, the question you actually

925
00:47:15.300 --> 00:47:16.260
asked about Missy.

926
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:20.519
The thing is, Missy doesn't know where all the doctors' lessons

927
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:20.940
are going.

928
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:21.960
Yeah.

929
00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:26.880
But then we do get this bit at the end. where she does start to

930
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:29.460
accept, oh, maybe I'm having an emotion.

931
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:31.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.

932
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:36.000
So I watch this again today with Rod, and Rod's only 2 comments

933
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:37.679
where popcorn doesn't pop that quickly.

934
00:47:37.739 --> 00:47:43.019
And, um, But his other thing, when the credits rolled is more

935
00:47:43.019 --> 00:47:45.420
missy, more missy, I want Missy to come back.

936
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.579
She's the best we've had since Delgado.

937
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:48.599
Oh, yeah.

938
00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:50.820
And I think that's the thing.

939
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:54.059
This is a few minutes of rewrites, basically.

940
00:47:54.179 --> 00:48:00.599
And you would never know because Michelle and Peter are so good.

941
00:48:00.659 --> 00:48:02.219
And, you know, Pearl and Matt as well.

942
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:04.679
But Pearl and Matt mostly just get to go, what's she doing here?

943
00:48:04.739 --> 00:48:05.280
What's she doing?

944
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:06.000
What's she doing?

945
00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:11.099
And Bill is beautifully defensive about what appears to be, oh

946
00:48:11.099 --> 00:48:13.380
you're using a woman just to tidy up the place, are you?

947
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.920
But then there's that wonderful, all those glorious moments where

948
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:19.920
Michelle just turns around and gives that Joan Crawford side down

949
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:22.199
and you think, she could kill you all in.

950
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:24.179
Just out of boredom.

951
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:31.380
I think I think my favourite moments are the way that rather than

952
00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:34.739
saying, you know, Missy's turning good now, the doctor says

953
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:37.800
something about how it might be time for you and me to be friends

954
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:39.599
again, like putting it that way.

955
00:48:39.659 --> 00:48:41.880
Yeah, that was a really good life, yeah.

956
00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:45.059
Yeah, and are you really buy it, I think, you know, just from the

957
00:48:45.059 --> 00:48:45.900
way it's played?

958
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:49.380
And, you know, when she she actually goes to touch him and he

959
00:48:49.380 --> 00:48:51.360
steps back a little bit.

960
00:48:51.420 --> 00:48:54.119
And I just thought all of that was tremendously good.

961
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:58.380
And then I do like the other one where she suggests maybe it's

962
00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:02.400
just a devious plan and wouldn't that be easier?

963
00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:06.780
You know, like, I think, I think probably people at this point

964
00:49:06.780 --> 00:49:12.780
weren't sold on Missy's redemption, and it's happened a few

965
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:14.340
episodes earlier, hasn't it?

966
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:18.420
It's in the lie of the land, where we see her cry for the 1st time

967
00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:21.000
and talk about the names of the people that she's killed.

968
00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:25.320
And I think by having her joke with him about it being a devious

969
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:27.179
plan and how much easier that would be.

970
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:31.019
Anyone kind of remotely literate will realise, well, then it's not

971
00:49:31.019 --> 00:49:33.599
a devious plan at this point. that's something that's really

972
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:37.199
genuinely happening And that's interesting.

973
00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:41.760
And obviously, it leads into what's going to happen next week.

974
00:49:41.820 --> 00:49:46.559
But it's a great moment, just beautifully played by Michelle, I

975
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:48.900
think, and by Peter. they're superb.

976
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:52.440
They're dynamically opposed together, aren't they?

977
00:49:52.500 --> 00:49:54.360
That whole yin yang yin thing that they do.

978
00:49:54.420 --> 00:49:58.079
Sometimes it's difficult to tell them apart or tell them apart

979
00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:59.639
especially when they're whirling about each other.

980
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:01.320
No, it is.

981
00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:02.519
Which one's which?

982
00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:05.340
And I mean, I mean that digetically, Brendan, one.

983
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:06.960
The shadow and the light.

984
00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:11.579
I can very much see Capaldi's doctor be utterly tempted and

985
00:50:11.579 --> 00:50:14.519
capable to do anything that Missy will do.

986
00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:16.019
He just would never do it.

987
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:17.159
He chooses not to.

988
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:20.760
She just doesn't have those boundaries, but they're so alike.

989
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:24.059
They should have just ended up marrying each other at the end of

990
00:50:24.059 --> 00:50:24.480
the show.

991
00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:25.980
It's almost there.

992
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:28.860
Actually, no, no, because the mistress is always the fun one, isn't

993
00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:29.039
she?

994
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:29.699
these stories.

995
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:30.900
So yeah, I get I get it.

996
00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:35.400
I just realised that's why she's called Missy.

997
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.559
It's not mistress.

998
00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:42.480
She's the she's the libidinous mistress to to Capaldi's doctor

999
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.719
whereas Clara is the is the granddaughter slash.

1000
00:50:45.780 --> 00:50:48.300
Oh, let's get a bit non-eatable about this.

1001
00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:49.679
Yep.

1002
00:50:49.739 --> 00:50:51.960
That's where I'm going to, that's where I'm going to stick.

1003
00:50:52.019 --> 00:50:55.019
I'm going to stick my de bevoir right there, my little fridge

1004
00:50:55.019 --> 00:50:55.800
magnet right there.

1005
00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:01.679
I think, uh, it did really remind me of how, how well Moffat wrote

1006
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:05.280
The Master, if we, if we can refer to Missy as the master in those

1007
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:05.579
terms.

1008
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:07.079
I think he's probably the best.

1009
00:51:07.139 --> 00:51:09.119
And of the showrunners.

1010
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:12.119
And it is pretty much just the showrun as you might, the master in

1011
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:14.099
the news series as far as I'm aware at the top of my head.

1012
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:16.679
I can't think of many instances of other people think, unless it's

1013
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:17.820
like literally just cameos.

1014
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:22.380
Um, And it does feel the most like an actual character to me.

1015
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:25.619
Um, and that's, I suppose, why, um, yeah, there's the suggestion

1016
00:51:25.619 --> 00:51:29.460
best in Delgado, because it really is about a bit more than just

1017
00:51:29.460 --> 00:51:31.980
being evil cackling maniac.

1018
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:36.659
Even though, you know, Michelle Gibbs great evil cackling maniac.

1019
00:51:36.780 --> 00:51:39.659
Actually, I suppose that's one of the other reasons that I think

1020
00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:43.739
it's interesting in terms of what we were saying earlier about the

1021
00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:48.960
sense of a slightly potentially grumpier Reed, of Capaldi, and I'm

1022
00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:53.039
very much reminded of having written for Michelle, to play Missy

1023
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:56.880
on a few occasions where you have no idea what you're going to

1024
00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:57.119
get.

1025
00:51:57.179 --> 00:52:01.500
Even if just the actual like the material on the page is clear and

1026
00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:03.599
relatively straightforward, she will come in and do something

1027
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:06.539
absolutely barking out because she does her own little spin on

1028
00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:06.719
it.

1029
00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:07.440
She's amazing.

1030
00:52:07.500 --> 00:52:09.239
Do you think exactly what you want it to be?

1031
00:52:09.300 --> 00:52:13.079
She's like that when you've sat next to her, hasn't you, haven't

1032
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:13.380
you John?

1033
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:14.519
I've seen her on comic con stuff.

1034
00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:15.780
She's terrifying.

1035
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:18.539
In the best way. glorious.

1036
00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:19.320
Yeah.

1037
00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:21.480
But she is exactly what you want that woman to be.

1038
00:52:21.539 --> 00:52:22.920
Director's nightmare.

1039
00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:24.480
Does she extemporised?

1040
00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:25.500
Does she admit?

1041
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:26.400
No, not in this.

1042
00:52:26.460 --> 00:52:28.800
No, I think she pretty much does the lines, but you've no idea

1043
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:33.420
where they're going to go and it can be like all over the shop in

1044
00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:34.320
the best possible way.

1045
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.980
Well, that's all the time we have this wave.

1046
00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:02.159
We'll be back next week for something much scarier and more

1047
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:05.460
upsetting than usual in world enough and time.

1048
00:53:06.059 --> 00:53:09.780
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1049
00:53:09.780 --> 00:53:13.139
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1050
00:53:11.579 --> 00:53:16.199
com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to

1051
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:20.460
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1052
00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:24.599
500-year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1053
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:31.079
Until next time, for God's sake, go outside and get some vitamin D

1054
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:33.539
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1055
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:34.380
Good night.

1056
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:35.159
Good night.

1057
00:53:35.219 --> 00:53:36.599
Good Bennings.

1058
00:53:41.039 --> 00:53:45.360
That was Flight 3 Entirety, sorry, Nathan Bottomley, John Dorney

1059
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:46.679
Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1060
00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:48.900
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1061
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:52.320
This episode, a perfect crucible, was recorded on the 27th of

1062
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.199
October 2024 and released on the 17th of November.

1063
00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:59.460
If Death by Scotland is a complete and total absence of any kind

1064
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:02.940
of sunlight, perhaps Death by Australia is being repeatedly struck

1065
00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:06.000
on the head by dopey and ill advised attempts to regulate the

1066
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:06.360
Internet.

1067
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:08.699
Write to your MP.

1068
00:54:18.179 --> 00:54:21.900
I just bought three instantly, and one of them happened to be your

1069
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:24.599
Death World, and I was, I was so, it was so lovely.

1070
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:26.880
Katie, having so much fun.

1071
00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:28.260
Yeah, I had...

1072
00:54:28.260 --> 00:54:29.340
You should like it. really works.

1073
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:30.239
It really worked.

1074
00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:31.739
Yeah, I had a fun time with that.

1075
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.199
Um, Yeah.

1076
00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:39.420
Some of it is, some people have said some things about, uh, how

1077
00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:42.059
some of it is out of period because there's things like the

1078
00:54:42.059 --> 00:54:43.500
Cloister Bell and stuff like that in there.

1079
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:46.440
They would say that though, wouldn't they?

1080
00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:48.900
Yeah, but here's the thing. the thing. because a good chunk of

1081
00:54:48.900 --> 00:54:51.239
that 1st episode was salvage from a script that couldn't be done.

1082
00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:53.940
So I managed to think, oh, actually, I can use some of this

1083
00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:54.480
somewhere else.

1084
00:54:54.539 --> 00:54:55.800
And I thought, the lines are good enough.

1085
00:54:55.860 --> 00:54:56.340
I'll keep them.

1086
00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:58.440
I don't really mind the fact that they're not, they wouldn't have

1087
00:54:58.440 --> 00:54:59.340
said that in the 70s.

1088
00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:00.719
So, yeah.

1089
00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:01.500
Doesn't matter.

1090
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:03.420
I'm trying to think.

1091
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:05.940
Now, a quick one for me and Brendan, before we all properly start

1092
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:10.139
because I'll forget being the ADHD little thing I currently am.

1093
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:12.719
Please, more Avengers.

1094
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:17.039
Oh, yeah, I, at the moment, I don't seem to be any more plans.

1095
00:55:17.099 --> 00:55:19.139
We're really hopeful because that's frustrating.

1096
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.219
I know we thought they weren't.

1097
00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:21.360
It's not studio York.

1098
00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:22.440
Anal, is it?

1099
00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:23.820
No, I think it's just sales.

1100
00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:25.679
I don't think it sells massively well.

1101
00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:26.280
They do that well.

1102
00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:26.940
Oh, okay.

1103
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:27.599
I think they did it.

1104
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.199
Well, enough. to like keep doing them for a while, but then not

1105
00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:35.039
enough to actually, you know, it's a bit of a frustration because

1106
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:37.079
there was always something like a little nice little gig per

1107
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:37.380
year.

1108
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:39.239
It's really sweet one.

1109
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:41.340
And everybody just works so well in them.

1110
00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:42.960
Yeah, I think I think so too.

1111
00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:48.059
I mean, I'd love to do more with Beth Chalmers as Kathy Gale

1112
00:55:48.059 --> 00:55:51.360
because Brendan and I were saying that's, what did you think

1113
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:51.659
Brendan?

1114
00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:52.559
Oh, just amazing.

1115
00:55:52.619 --> 00:55:54.480
Well, just what I just said.

1116
00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:56.400
She took my breath away, like that 1st scene.

1117
00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:57.300
I kill a gorilla.

1118
00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:00.059
You know, is just like perfectly pitched.

1119
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:02.519
There was there was a moment when we were discussing who could

1120
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:07.860
play Mrs. Peel. where David Richardson said, oh, what have you

1121
00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:09.000
thought, what about, I don't know.

1122
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:10.860
Um, Beth Chalmers.

1123
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:14.699
And I just went, no, because if we ever do Kathy Gale, she's Kathy

1124
00:56:14.699 --> 00:56:15.119
Gale.

1125
00:56:15.179 --> 00:56:17.280
Because there's no other choice.

1126
00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:22.619
She's, she, she basically is on a black man in most senses, you

1127
00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:26.760
know, you know, you know, even down to the fact she's a boxer.

1128
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:30.539
She's an actual fighter, so, you know, she could kick the crap out

1129
00:56:30.539 --> 00:56:33.000
of me like on a black one, could she knock someone out?

1130
00:56:33.059 --> 00:56:34.260
Yeah.

1131
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.440
But yeah, that was that was always fun.

1132
00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:38.579
Olivia is charming.

1133
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:42.000
It's more of the, it's much more of the feel of a comic book or a

1134
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:46.139
younger Emma, but she's just superb and I love, I love everyone in

1135
00:56:46.139 --> 00:56:47.039
it and I love your writing in it.

1136
00:56:47.099 --> 00:56:48.900
I think it's the best stuff you've done for them.

1137
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:50.579
I had a lovely time with it.

1138
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:53.039
I love doing the kind of the style and the humour and yeah.

1139
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:55.860
And it's just, it's one word, especially the lost ones.

1140
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:58.980
Yeah, although they were fun. and I really, really love them.

1141
00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:00.719
I listen to them still.

1142
00:57:01.139 --> 00:57:07.260
I had a genuinely unique experience and I think it's quite hard in

1143
00:57:07.260 --> 00:57:11.639
our modern world to have a unique experience. which was when I was

1144
00:57:11.639 --> 00:57:15.480
invited to the BFI to watch the Recovered Tunnel of Fear, after

1145
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:19.440
having written an adaptation just from the Telesnaps and being so

1146
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:19.860
wrong.

1147
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:21.000
It's ridiculous.

1148
00:57:21.059 --> 00:57:27.840
It's weird, but like, I think I talked about this in the DVDs

1149
00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:32.099
where anytime I, there was a 50-50 binary choice, I went for the

1150
00:57:32.099 --> 00:57:32.460
other one.

1151
00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:35.760
And whatever they, so, for example, at the end, he's like got the

1152
00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.760
matches in, it's whether they are genuine or exploding cigarettes

1153
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:41.639
and it's really unclear to whether they genuinely are or not.

1154
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:42.960
And I went, no, it's a bluff.

1155
00:57:43.019 --> 00:57:45.960
And then in TV, no, they actually are. think it's things like

1156
00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:46.199
that.

1157
00:57:46.260 --> 00:57:48.780
And there are whole subplots in there that you can't tell of

1158
00:57:48.780 --> 00:57:49.019
that.

1159
00:57:49.019 --> 00:57:52.739
And it really emphasised how little we know about those episodes

1160
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:56.039
and about how much of it is.

1161
00:57:56.099 --> 00:57:58.139
And I found this with one of the other episodes as well, there was

1162
00:57:58.139 --> 00:58:01.739
um, When I had to write, where there is a character listed in the

1163
00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:05.099
radio Times cast billing, who is not mentioning the synopsis, and

1164
00:58:05.099 --> 00:58:06.960
someone who's mentioned the synopsis, who is not mentioning the

1165
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:09.420
radio Times cast billing, going, I don't understand what any of

1166
00:58:09.420 --> 00:58:09.900
this means.

1167
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:13.980
And it's always just going to be like absolute guess what.

1168
00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:16.500
But it was really weird just seeing the filmed version of it.

1169
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:19.320
It felt like somebody had taken the script I'd written, taken it

1170
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:22.500
back in time and adapted it for television in the 60s.

1171
00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:25.800
Uh, and I just kept getting distracted by the fact he's got like

1172
00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:30.239
uh, the extras include Nikki Henson and, um, and what's his name?

1173
00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:32.219
Is it Julian Holloway?

1174
00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:33.360
Yeah.

1175
00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:33.840
Really?

1176
00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:35.280
Oh, okay.

1177
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:36.840
The guy out of survival.

1178
00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:40.199
Which is which is a useful link for what we're talking about today

1179
00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:40.980
isn't it, I suppose?

1180
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:46.619
you know, yeah, the guy who's like the army guy. in that is one of

1181
00:58:46.619 --> 00:58:47.519
the extras in the background.

1182
00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:48.539
Apes of other things.

1183
00:58:48.599 --> 00:58:50.940
Yeah, he's one of the war-coms in the background, him and Nicky

1184
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:51.360
Hanson.

1185
00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:55.260
And I just kept trying to remember their names going, which one is

1186
00:58:55.260 --> 00:58:55.440
it?

1187
00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:56.820
And I think I was having exactly the same thought.

1188
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:57.119
I go.

1189
00:58:57.179 --> 00:58:57.960
Is it Jillian all about?

1190
00:58:58.019 --> 00:58:58.380
Is it that?

1191
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.119
So I couldn't quite focus on the story.

1192
00:59:00.179 --> 00:59:00.719
Yeah.

1193
00:59:01.860 --> 00:59:03.480
Brilliant.

1194
00:59:03.539 --> 00:59:05.099
So when was that discovered?

1195
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:06.360
Oh, it was about...

1196
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:09.059
I mean, 2018 or something like that?

1197
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:10.139
Oh, okay.

1198
00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:11.340
Because it was just...

1199
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.039
I mean, I think it was literally 6 months after our version came

1200
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:14.219
out.

1201
00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:17.880
So the most quickly redundant big finish thing ever.

1202
00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:22.500
I know which one in a way was going, I'm delighted because like

1203
00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:25.679
seeing any more of those is, and I'd say it's also probably easily

1204
00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:28.739
the best one are the ones from the 1st series that exist.

1205
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:29.460
Yeah.

1206
00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:32.940
What a shame we never got the bananas one.

1207
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:34.559
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

1208
00:59:34.619 --> 00:59:35.159
Oh, God.

1209
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:35.820
Unbelievable.

1210
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:37.559
I'd forgotten the banana So it's a good audio.

1211
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:38.219
Yeah it's fun.

1212
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:39.539
What is really good in it?

1213
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:39.780
Yeah.

1214
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:40.500
God yeah.