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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:24:55

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Hello, D listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast that feels like this flight has been going

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on for years and years.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, it's a rare moment of science fiction in Doctor Who this

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week, as the Doctor and Bill learn a valuable lesson about

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gravitational time dilation.

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But here, there are much more terrible lessons to be learned

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lessons about who Missy is and about who we are as human beings

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when things are in crisis.

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It's time at last for the genesis of the cybermen, in world enough

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and time.

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This is another one, another Moffat finale that I remember on

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first viewing, being really stressed by.

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The last one was dark water, which I just found really kind of

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upsetting, and then this just the incredible urgency that you feel

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the entire time.

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It's really extremely good, I think.

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It's gruelling, I think.

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It's gruelling in terms of the story being told, and it's grim in

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its aesthetic.

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You know, the dark spaceship corridors and the 50s style NHS

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hospital that Bill ends up in.

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It's all very foreboding.

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Yeah, it's got great atmosphere.

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Yes, it's exactly the kind of doctor who I like.

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It just doesn't less up on that.

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It's just it's really, really strong all the way through.

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And I think also visually, it does also help to try and explain

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the situation with the spacecraft moving away from the black hole

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you know, the different levels, the different things that are on

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different levels that you'll see more of next week.

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And so I think it's actually properly put together and properly

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thought through how this is going to work.

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Not to mention all the clever moving about in time itself, like

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you know, flashbacks and flash forwards and so on like that.

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I think that works very well.

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And when we're getting those early sequences where the 3 of them

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are at the top and Bill is at the bottom, the way that passage of

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time is expressed is so clever, but also so harrowing and so

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upsetting for Bill, who's at the bottom watching an eyebrow raised

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slowly over the course of months, you know?

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Yeah, it's something that Moffat can do and very few other people

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can is to marry a strong sci-fi idea to actual emotions and

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characters that we love.

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That's not an accident that he can do that.

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That's incredible talent.

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Utterly brilliant from the get go.

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That whole sequence with Missy coming out of the target.

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Isn't it just, it's just delicious.

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When she was talking about exposition and comic relief, I fully

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expected Sarah Jane and Harry to come out of the times, kind of.

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That's just brilliant.

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That's a brilliant love, as well as the whole thing, Doctor Who

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and what do you mean, it's his name?

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and she says, look at the screen.

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And then they cut to all the screens.

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It's very cleverly done It's, I mean, that is just absolute superb

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Moffat trolly that in his last episode.

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I think he does know, obviously, at this point that he is doing

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twice upon a time, because, of course, we start with a scene that

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leads straight into twice upon a time.

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But in his last kind of regular episode for the show, he canonises

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the idea that the doctor's name is Doctor Who. and that he chose

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it in order to be mysterious.

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And then he dropped it because he thought it was too on the nose.

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And given that that's kind of the history of the thing.

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And given...

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And we all spent our childhood going, no, no, no, it's not Doctor

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Who.

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You know, he would be called Doctor Who on TV or in newspaper

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articles or something.

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He was always referred to as Doctor Who by people who weren't us.

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And we knew that he was the doctor.

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And so Moffatt just on the way out the door just takes the

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opportunity to troll us.

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Even proving Peter Davis on the end credits of Castravalva part

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one incorrect.

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Yes.

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That's a good thing.

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You know, it's funny.

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We did an episode a couple of weeks ago and like Missy was just in

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at the end.

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That was the Empress of Mars.

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And then obviously I watched The Eaters of Light, where again, she

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is in the Tartars at the end.

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And I really at the time wanted to see in a complete episode with

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this team that they get out of, like, you know, where they go to

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the planet, they have to escape, et cetera, the whole 4 of them.

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But if we'd done that, this 1st sequence would be in that episode

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rather than here, right?

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So what do you do here?

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So it actually now on reflection and watching these episodes

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through.

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I just think it's it's just so delicious that it's here at the

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beginning of this.

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They're just setting everything up so well.

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And of course, we subsequently demonstrate that having 3

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companions, which is effectively the setup you'd be talking about

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is at least one too many, and that's yet to be reproven.

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I don't know, though, because I think Barbara Ian and Vicky work.

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Yes, but that's because we have 7 episode stories and things like

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that.

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Possibly.

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But I have to say, not possibly.

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Let's see how it goes next season.

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Yeah, no, I know it doesn't go well next season and I know it

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doesn't go well in the 80s, but I don't know that it's a bad idea

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necessarily.

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And certainly I think Nadol, Missy, Bill and this doctor would

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have been spectacular as a...

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Yeah, which of them do you want to cut?

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Yeah.

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No, you don't want to cut any of them.

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But my point being, the format of the way the stories are told

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needs to be different to the way it's being told in the 21st

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century for that team to work.

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I think what is funny is having the doctor in the Tartars eating

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crisps.

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Yes, yes, of watching them do an episode.

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Exactly.

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This is a trick where he offers a jelly baby to that child next

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episode.

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It should have been one of those Chris.

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Yes, actually.

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It also shows Missy, I mean, I know we've waxed lyrical over her

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and she is amazing in every scene and every episode that she's in

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but she's so good and so watchful because she's so funny.

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And we haven't had another master who's been as funny as her

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except maybe Delgado.

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And in both of those instances, you can see them not just being a

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match for the doctor, but they are alternate doctors, which is, of

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course, what this episode is playing with.

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You can fully see them as the lead in the show with just a couple

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of tweaks.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think that's absolutely right.

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We had that with John Sim as well.

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You know, we just plucked someone out of a nearby science fiction

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program on TV and made him the master, someone who had proven that

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they can be an alternative lead.

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And in fact, you do get that in the next episode as well where

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like, isn't that what we always wanted?

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What a shame we do that in the 70s.

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We could have Martin Landau as the Martin.

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That would have been bad.

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I mean, the thing about this episode is that while it's bleak and

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miserable and really, really quite stressful to watch, it actually

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manages to be incredibly funny.

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And it's funny in these scenes with Missy, obviously, at the

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beginning.

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And then later on when we get Mr. Razor introduced, he's really

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funny.

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Yes, he has. good lines and he just thrown away.

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It's as if he's being written by Douglas Adams, I think. you know

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stuff about the tea.

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Yeah, the tea, which will distract from the horrors to come.

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And she goes, what's the horrors to come?

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And he goes mostly the tea.

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Remember also the fact that you drink it while it's hot because

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the pain will...

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Distract from the flavour.

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Yeah, all of that stuff, like, you know, that wittering on about

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tea is classic Douglas Adams.

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It's like the, you know, one lump or two, you know, sugar.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's also classic Doctor Who.

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Doctor has always had a fixation with tea. and I like it.

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Yes, both of them.

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The Englishness itself.

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But it's also classic Doctor Who in the sense that everything

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that's going on is so foreboning and horrific, but the best Doctor

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Who has the comedy written into it into the character.

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And that's what I like.

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Exactly.

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And that's the thing that I think too often the modern era tends

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to get wrong, especially RTD is that basically it's not about the

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comedy.

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The comedy is the stuff that happens around the edges, which

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allows you to get through these fairly grim situations.

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Because obviously if it was all deadly serious, it would be

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unbearable.

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It would be awful.

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It would not be this program.

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It'd be true horror.

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Whereas you've got these horrific things going on and yet you've

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got all these characters making likes of it, including the

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doctor.

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I mean, to some extent.

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It's your example, Nathan.

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You love the horror of Fang rock.

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In fact, is it your favourite classic series story?

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It's not, but it's up there and it's one of my favourite

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portrayals of the doctor.

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Yeah, this goes to exactly the same well in that both of them are

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fairly bleak material and both of them are hilariously funny in

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places. places, yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, here, I guess the best illustration of that is that

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scene where Bill is exploring the hospital ward, where the people

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who have undergone conversion are, and that absolutely, like

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absolutely moffety thing, where, you know, they're saying pain

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pain, pain repeatedly, and there's the thing on top of the IV that

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turns the volume down.

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And you assume at 1st it's just giving them more medication.

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No, but it's not.

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Yeah, that's right.

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That's what you think.

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It's a control on the top of the thing that dispenses the pain

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medication we imagine.

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And then she goes to the 2nd one and he's saying, kill me.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. so dark.

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When I watched this in 2017, the 1st time, I watched it alone and

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my housemate Bex came home and Bex has, you know, a lot of

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interest in Doctor Who, even though she's not a fervent fan.

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And I replayed that scene and showed it to her and she, being a

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writer, just went, that's very good.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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But then that's when we see Razor, you know, like he turns up and

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just goes, T, you know, like at a kind of surprising and

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inappropriate moment.

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Do we twig that that's John Sims master at that point?

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I did not at all.

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I did not, but of course, in one of the great mysteries of modern

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Doctor Who, they had announced it months before, and no one can

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quite work out why they did it.

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And it was in the trailer. he was in the trailer. was sort of like

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well, he's coming back.

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And so I went into this going, well, he hasn't appeared yet.

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And so I was wanting to see, like I was there going, who's he

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going to be?

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And Razor turned up.

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And it didn't twig.

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And it didn't tweak because it was one, the performance.

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And two, the prosthetic that he wears around his head actually

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changes the shape of his head.

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And that's the thing.

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He's not just a moustache.

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His round hair.

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Yes, he's around the head.

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Yes, it's a bit like in...

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If I just go off the track for a moment in Deep Space 9 where they

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have a character called Torra Ziel, and it's paid by one actress

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Cy Battan, and then the 2nd actress, Tracy Middendorf, has the

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same prosthetic.

251
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Like, and so you don't realise that somebody different, like this

252
00:12:06.779 --> 00:12:09.779
is sort of in reverse until the performance starts.

253
00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.779
I have to say that I did twig and it was the smile.

254
00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.659
It was absolutely John Sims smile.

255
00:12:15.659 --> 00:12:18.840
Even though he has prosthetic teeth, I knew it was him.

256
00:12:18.899 --> 00:12:22.559
And then, of course, you can hear the voice, you know, it is sort

257
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:23.279
of clearly him.

258
00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:29.519
I think I think that him in the sound of drums, he's not quite

259
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:30.299
there yet.

260
00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:34.080
And I think there are some takes that perhaps needed some

261
00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:37.200
reconsideration where he doesn't quite get it.

262
00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:39.600
But here I think he's magnificent.

263
00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:42.720
And for both episodes I think he's really very good here.

264
00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:44.220
Yeah, he's amazing.

265
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:46.980
And I think with Razor, I didn't take for a long time because then

266
00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:49.980
I forgot, like, at some point, tweak back into my head, oh, the

267
00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:51.000
master's supposed to be in this.

268
00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:53.580
And you know, when he's walking down the corridor and he's master

269
00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:54.779
of disguise or whatever.

270
00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:58.919
It's around that time that I went, oh, oh, you know, that's him.

271
00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:01.500
But I've watched a lot of YouTube reactors, right?

272
00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:03.419
And some of them have no idea.

273
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:06.600
And so when that reveal happens at the end of the story, Like

274
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:11.279
they're, these YouTube reactors expressions are just glorious.

275
00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.019
I think it just is a wonderful job.

276
00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.379
Just a wonderful. would have been an amazing revelation if we

277
00:13:16.379 --> 00:13:18.779
hadn't been primed to expect a surprise.

278
00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.120
He does extremely well. have a couple of thoughts on this.

279
00:13:21.179 --> 00:13:24.240
I think, I mean, one, I think the master is probably looking into

280
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.000
the mirror and congratulating himself on the best makeup job since

281
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:27.720
Khalid.

282
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:30.960
Where's the green ooze?

283
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:33.120
What about the portray?

284
00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:35.639
I mean, the poor tree is amazing.

285
00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:39.960
Don't for a moment, don't think it's Anthony Ainley, but...

286
00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:40.980
What's the other?

287
00:13:43.379 --> 00:13:45.360
Back to the glory days.

288
00:13:45.419 --> 00:13:49.980
But also I think, yes, the performance is better, I think, in this

289
00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:50.399
story.

290
00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:53.340
And I think the characterisation is better.

291
00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:55.980
And I think because John Simon is an excellent actor.

292
00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:59.100
There's something to be said for the thing that we always say that

293
00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:01.620
a master reflects their doctor.

294
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.440
And so I think he's looked at this and said, I've got to lose some

295
00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.139
of the manic energy because that's not Peter Capaldi's doctor.

296
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.299
It will look out of sync up against that.

297
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.899
I know it's, I'm jumping ahead here to the next episode, but

298
00:14:12.899 --> 00:14:16.080
having both Michelle Gomez and Peter Poldi, they give a different

299
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:16.919
energy, right?

300
00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:19.799
And so I certainly think in that episode, he's reflecting that

301
00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:22.139
energy as opposed to David Tennant's energy.

302
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.759
But here it's him and Bill for most of it, and it's for so long.

303
00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:28.440
Like it's for 10 years or whatever it is.

304
00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:32.700
Like, you're thinking, like, if you think back to his master back

305
00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:36.120
in season three, like he played a long game for a year, but he

306
00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:38.100
could barely contain himself when things happened.

307
00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:41.279
Like, you know, 5 minutes of whatever, and then he'd have to

308
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:41.759
reveal it.

309
00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:43.440
Here, he has to play a really long game.

310
00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:44.879
And I really like that.

311
00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:48.299
Also, more evidence, my theory that the master should always have

312
00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:48.840
a companion.

313
00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:49.740
Yeah.

314
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:50.879
Yes, that works.

315
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.820
I mean, my observation is that I think he is so much better in

316
00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:57.299
these 2 episodes because of the material, because of the director

317
00:14:57.299 --> 00:15:01.860
because of the tone, the kind of the way the material is informing

318
00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:03.179
the tone of the performance.

319
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.440
And I think that's why the RTD end of the series 3 and then the

320
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.320
end of time stuff is a completely different tone to this.

321
00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:12.179
And so it is Hamier.

322
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.639
I don't think it's just the fact that he's acting against David

323
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.080
Tennant.

324
00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:17.820
Because he's not, because actually he's barely acting against

325
00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:19.919
Peter Capaldi in either of these 2 episodes.

326
00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:22.679
He's mainly acting with either Bill or with the missy.

327
00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:25.139
Maybe not, but I think there is that element to it, like, you

328
00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:25.320
know.

329
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:26.340
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

330
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:30.480
I'm just making the observation that I think that the direction

331
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.659
not just the director, racial tellalay, but the direction of the

332
00:15:33.659 --> 00:15:36.600
show, the artistic direction, that comes from the top of the

333
00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:37.139
team.

334
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:40.679
And I think that's what he is feeding on and why we're getting

335
00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:42.840
such a better performance, as well as the fact that the dialogue

336
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:47.220
is so much clever and all these lines about tea and all the...

337
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:48.179
And it's a dark...

338
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:48.419
Yeah.

339
00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:49.200
Yeah.

340
00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:51.899
Yeah, and he's not asked to kind of do what you might call sort of

341
00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:52.860
silly or stupid things.

342
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:57.120
Now, I didn't tweak, but I'm one of those people, like, and Brian

343
00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:59.519
says all the time, like, he'll see a trailer or a film, and he'll

344
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.279
say that he's always waiting for certain shots to appear in the

345
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.860
film and knows when they don't because sometimes, you know, they

346
00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:06.179
use a different edit or something.

347
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.519
It's like it just disappears from my mind.

348
00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:10.679
Like, yes, even though the last shot of the trailer from the

349
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:12.779
previous week was John Sims saying, give us a kiss.

350
00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:16.379
I completely forget that when I'm then watching the episode, even

351
00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:17.279
though it's John Sim.

352
00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:21.779
So I have a theory about why the performance is so different, and

353
00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:27.720
I think one reason is that since John Sim appeared as the master

354
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:31.980
the rift between the classic series and the new series has to some

355
00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:33.419
degree been healed.

356
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:39.539
Mostly by Day of the Doctor, that's its explicit aim, and we've

357
00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:40.799
reclaimed the series.

358
00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:44.580
We're not reacting against the old series anymore.

359
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.279
We're seeing ourselves as continuing it.

360
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:56.279
And so this master, John Sims master is not just the master who

361
00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.779
faced off against David Tennant, but he is the master.

362
00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:02.519
He has a goatee.

363
00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:04.319
He's much more saturnine.

364
00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:05.880
He's still horrible.

365
00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:09.480
Like he's still fabulously horrible, but he's here not just

366
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.519
because of fan wank.

367
00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:15.180
It's not like the 2 doctors where we had such a lovely time with

368
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:18.420
Pat Trouton that we invited him back a couple of years later

369
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.720
dangerous and dangerous ground, mentioning 2 doctors in fan wank

370
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:22.500
and the same sentence to me.

371
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:23.460
Oh, really?

372
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:24.359
It does have fun.

373
00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:26.400
You know, a lot of fan work, get it.

374
00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:33.660
But here the reason is that what we're doing is externalising and

375
00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:37.380
personifying, the whole thing that we've watched Missy do all

376
00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:42.059
season, which is wrestle with who she was, and try to decide

377
00:17:42.059 --> 00:17:45.599
whether she's going to continue to be the master or not.

378
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:50.700
And so what we do is we bring back a traditional master, a

379
00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:55.680
traditional generic master to represent that idea and have her

380
00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:00.059
interactions with him, show us how she feels.

381
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.019
And I think, and there's more of this next week, but it obviously

382
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:10.380
occurs at the end here. that that's incredibly well done, and that

383
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:17.160
the fact that we spent all season not certain of whether she was

384
00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:21.299
bunging it on or not, whether it was a devious plan or not.

385
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:25.740
And you and I, Simon, over a few episodes this season have kind of

386
00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:27.000
had different takes on it.

387
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:30.119
Whereas I'm fairly certain that Michelle is playing it for real

388
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:35.039
and you're wanting it to kind of be a ploy and it turns out it's

389
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:35.279
both.

390
00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:39.359
Yeah, no, that's that's the way I'm feeling in those earlier

391
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.099
episodes because you're not sure.

392
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:43.259
I think you're thinking I'm thinking it is a ploy.

393
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:46.680
But I think that the demonstration in these 2 episodes is it

394
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.259
Israel and she's genuinely torn and conflict.

395
00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:50.339
Yeah, yeah. wants to do.

396
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.059
It builds to that. no bizarre flip-flopping. actually a really

397
00:18:54.059 --> 00:18:56.819
well-done, gentle progression of the character.

398
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.799
But just going back to sort of John Simmons, a sort of generic

399
00:18:58.799 --> 00:18:59.160
master.

400
00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:02.039
I think, yes, I think you're absolutely right that that's part of

401
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.160
the reason this story works is because you have what could be a

402
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:09.599
generic master, but I think that really undersells John Sims

403
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:13.259
ability and how he was, for, to my mind, and I know we differ on

404
00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:17.700
this, but to my mind, really misused and poorly served by those

405
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:18.599
early years.

406
00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:20.039
Misdirected rather than miscast.

407
00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:23.460
Exactly. misdirected, miswritten for, mis scripted.

408
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:25.859
It just misfired for me.

409
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:27.720
That's just my view of the master.

410
00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:30.900
I mean, and I'm not entirely sure whether it takes until day of

411
00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:34.559
the doctor to for us to heal the rift between the original series

412
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:35.460
and the new series.

413
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.799
I think we're already doing that during the David Tenant era.

414
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:41.220
I think as soon I think as soon as the series comes back, I think

415
00:19:41.220 --> 00:19:43.200
it's series one that they're doing that, because they're going, oh

416
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.779
no, we can't be associated with this silly program from the 20th

417
00:19:45.779 --> 00:19:49.140
century, and by the time they realise, when it's realised it's a

418
00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:50.640
huge success, then they lean into it.

419
00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:53.220
Otherwise, you wouldn't have every season stuff coming back.

420
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.460
And let's not forget that in Utopia, when the master is revealed

421
00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:59.759
we've got sound bites from Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley.

422
00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:01.980
As soon as that sort of stuff starts happening, that's when the

423
00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:02.640
rifter has been healed.

424
00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:07.440
But we do reject a traditional master in that episode. we actually

425
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:07.980
have.

426
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:13.200
Derek Jacoby saying if the doctor can be young and annoying, then

427
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:14.039
I can as well.

428
00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:15.420
I can't remember what that line is.

429
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:16.500
It's something like that.

430
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:16.920
Yeah, yeah.

431
00:20:17.099 --> 00:20:18.299
If the doctor can be...

432
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:20.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

433
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:21.180
And that's how it went.

434
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:21.720
Do you know what I mean?

435
00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:23.759
It's just nothing to do with being young. has to do with how he's

436
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:23.940
written.

437
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.660
Like, like I said, you want, you want, you know, the master works

438
00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:31.500
with, for me, Missy and Sasha Duan one as well, and certainly the

439
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:35.460
Roger Delgado one because the master is always more sophisticated

440
00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:38.519
more elegant, better dressed, more, do you know what I mean?

441
00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:40.920
Always the one that, you know, when you arrive, they're the ones

442
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.680
who've already insinuated themselves into the hierarchy because

443
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:45.180
they've, you know, wheedled their way in.

444
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:46.259
Seduced Galea.

445
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:48.779
Exactly. all that sort of stuff.

446
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.599
And that for me is, and I know that's kind of what the Johns does

447
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.400
too arguably, because he become as prime minister after all. you

448
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:53.819
know what I mean?

449
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.400
Like it's just a treatment of the character. that's why I think

450
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.220
John Simmons miserved in that earlier iteration of him.

451
00:20:59.279 --> 00:20:59.700
But anyway.

452
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:02.759
I mean, those words that you used about sort of better dressed and

453
00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:03.000
everything.

454
00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:05.759
It struck me during this episode that the version of the master

455
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:08.339
that John Simm is channelling the most is Eric Roberts.

456
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:09.420
Oh, okay.

457
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:09.900
Really?

458
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:13.440
Eric Roberts has that same kind of urbanity, the same kind of

459
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.160
delicious enjoyment of what he's doing. dressing for the occasion

460
00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:18.299
dressing for the occasion.

461
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:18.960
Absolutely.

462
00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:21.900
And it meant that I got a new appreciation for Eric Roberts did in

463
00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:22.200
the role.

464
00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:24.660
Oh, I think Eric Roberts was great in the role, but, you know

465
00:21:24.660 --> 00:21:27.720
there is, I think, partly because of that wonderful line and the

466
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:31.920
amount of expression and purpose in it, of this is an ambulance.

467
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:36.960
You know what I mean?

468
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:40.440
That's the that for me, in that kind of line and that tone and

469
00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:42.240
frustration, that is the master.

470
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:44.220
It's the ultimate why am I surrounded by this?

471
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:47.519
Also, don't forget, oh Bruce, you're sick.

472
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:48.299
Thank you.

473
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:49.079
Yes, exactly.

474
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:52.740
And that's the kind of, that's, I think, um, so you can see a line

475
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:55.319
between that Eric Roberts performance and the John Sim performance

476
00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:56.039
in series three.

477
00:21:56.099 --> 00:22:00.059
But then it just, for me, it's gone off the track.

478
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:01.799
It's gone off where I'd want to be.

479
00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:04.380
And I think they made a good decision in the writing.

480
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:08.519
You could easily have had John Simms master as an alias, say, the

481
00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.519
doctor performing the surgeries in the hospital.

482
00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:15.059
But they don't, they give him this weird and wacky character with

483
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:18.299
an odd accent and someone who would never in a 1000000 years think

484
00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:20.279
that the master was disguising themselves as.

485
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:24.359
Yes, except we will find out next week that he was.

486
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:25.500
He was the king of the world.

487
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:26.819
He was the king of the world.

488
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.700
That wasn't that doctor in the conversion theatre.

489
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:30.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

490
00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:32.400
There was one behind it, was that the idea?

491
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.240
No, no.

492
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:38.400
So we learned that he took over that floor, ruled like a king.

493
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:41.880
Everyone rebelled against him, and then he had to go into hiding

494
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:44.819
in disguise, just like at the end of time part.

495
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:47.940
Because that's the thing that happens to him all the time.

496
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.299
I think the one thing just before we finish with the master and

497
00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:51.900
John Simm.

498
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.380
I think that, you see, the one regret that if it were a

499
00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:58.799
traditional four-part story, we've missed the opportunity for him

500
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:02.700
to have an anagram is his name, credits of the 1st episode.

501
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:16.500
The absolute horror of Bill being shot through the chest.

502
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.859
Like, that moment is just one of the most horrific things that

503
00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:23.039
I've ever seen in Doctor Who at the time and even rewatching it.

504
00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:26.700
I'm just there going, oh my goodness, hey, looking through her

505
00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:29.400
chest, like you're just there going, how did they let this go out

506
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.240
all that time?

507
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:31.920
All the unbelieving faces?

508
00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:35.519
Yeah, the extended dread of keeping the camera away from that for

509
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.019
so long when you know what's happened.

510
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.539
Well, I think what's great is we get that.

511
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.559
And then we flash back to the plan.

512
00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:48.720
So we didn't need that scene because it was very clear what the

513
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:50.700
plan was that had been explained to us.

514
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:55.079
But this is the doctor trying to convince Bill of the plan and

515
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:56.579
really struggling.

516
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.740
I don't want to say we don't, didn't need it.

517
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.380
I think, yes, you're right, we didn't need it from a ruthless

518
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:04.920
storytelling, but we do need it from an emotional point of view.

519
00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:05.400
Absolutely.

520
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:07.440
So cleverly done.

521
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:11.640
And so cleverly done that it's clearly over the course of days, if

522
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:14.339
not weeks, because they're in different locations, picking up of

523
00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:16.200
the conversation, They're in different outfits, doing different

524
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:16.500
things.

525
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:19.019
The thing he does all the time in this season.

526
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:19.799
Exactly.

527
00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:20.579
And I love it.

528
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.160
It's like going back to what one of the things that makes the

529
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.180
pilot so...

530
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.160
Yeah, well, I totally agree with you.

531
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:29.220
Like just the conversations in the kitchen, you know, she scares

532
00:24:29.220 --> 00:24:32.940
me. you know, you won't get me killed, like it all just builds to

533
00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:36.960
that and having all of that in there, you just, they're going, you

534
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.180
felt this bill and look where we're at.

535
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.279
Like, this is just awful.

536
00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:45.059
It actually manages somehow to make that big hole through her

537
00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:50.099
chest even worse because we flash back to her, anticipating it

538
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:53.880
being scared of it, trying to get the doctor to reassure her that

539
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:54.539
it won't happen.

540
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.059
All of that sort of stuff and it happens anyway.

541
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.339
Although to be fair, she doesn't get shot through the chest

542
00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:00.480
because of something missy's done.

543
00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:02.880
You know, Missy doesn't need to be there for that to happen.

544
00:25:02.940 --> 00:25:03.539
No.

545
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.539
In fact, what I think is actually really brilliant about that

546
00:25:06.539 --> 00:25:09.839
scene, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention it, is

547
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:11.819
that that guy's called George.

548
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.240
By the way, we had Darren in oxygen.

549
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:20.160
The blue people always have just English names that are spelled

550
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:20.880
weirdly.

551
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.240
They all sound like ancillary characters from bewitched.

552
00:25:24.299 --> 00:25:25.140
Yeah, right.

553
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:29.700
He's terrified and he is going to shoot Bill and the doctor comes

554
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:33.960
in and gives one of his check my CV speeches.

555
00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:37.740
You know, I am going to save you, you know, everyone on this ship

556
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:42.059
in in just a little while and you'll look back and you'll go, you

557
00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:43.079
know.

558
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:44.519
Yeah, all of that sort of stuff.

559
00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:46.019
Like he's doing, he's absolute.

560
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:49.380
I'm a hero and I will undoubtedly save everyone and win the day

561
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:51.119
because I'm the doctor and that's what I do.

562
00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:55.500
In a story where he just ends saying, actually this almost never

563
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:55.859
works.

564
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:57.720
I've got nothing to do.

565
00:25:57.779 --> 00:25:59.220
I'm going to be dead soon.

566
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:02.700
I'm not going to be able to save anyone in any lasting way, but I

567
00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:03.539
still have to do it.

568
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:05.400
And I think that's incredible.

569
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:06.720
I think that's amazing.

570
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.619
Because Moffat, maybe more than anyone else has done the scene

571
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:14.460
where he tells the Vashta Narada to just check some of the target

572
00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:15.480
books on the shelves.

573
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:21.779
Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah. which is actually the one part of one

574
00:26:21.779 --> 00:26:24.660
of the very few parts of his style of writing, which I dislike.

575
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:25.740
Yes, yeah.

576
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:27.240
But here he is critiquing it.

577
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:27.900
Yeah.

578
00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:30.000
I did think it missed a slight trick.

579
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:34.799
I really like what's on screen by not having missy step up and do

580
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.019
that as part of her...

581
00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:40.920
Dr. Spiel as part of her Dr. Spiel, and failing and feeling the

582
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:42.960
impact of that herself as part of her journey.

583
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:44.039
Yeah.

584
00:26:44.099 --> 00:26:46.920
Although I do think that given that the 2nd episode is called the

585
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:50.519
Doctor Falls, we have to give him somewhere to fall from, and

586
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.920
that's absolutely the place that he falls from.

587
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:55.799
And as both masters will points out, they were there when he's

588
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:56.700
fallen before.

589
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:07.019
What do we think about that in relation to the bury your gays

590
00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:08.279
trope?

591
00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:13.200
Yeah, and there's also, well, there's also issues with, uh, you

592
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:16.019
know, people have talked about issues with black people as well

593
00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:16.619
being shot.

594
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:17.339
Do you know what I mean?

595
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:20.460
It's our 1st black companion for a while and she gets shot in the

596
00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:21.119
chest and stuff.

597
00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:25.019
And like, I think Moffatt's careful to make someone blue do that

598
00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:27.059
rather than someone white.

599
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.420
Like, I think that that's actually deliberate and thought

600
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:31.079
through.

601
00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:37.319
And I also think that one of the things that Moffat does is he's

602
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.940
brutally cruel. to all of the companions, like all of them.

603
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:47.700
Amy, Clara, Rory, like all of them have horrific things happen to

604
00:27:47.700 --> 00:27:51.359
them, and so it happens to Bill as well.

605
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:57.599
And even though it's horrific, we're not left hanging for very

606
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.140
long.

607
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:01.380
Like those people come in almost immediately and say we're going

608
00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:04.079
to repair her and we're not going to bring her back, we're only

609
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:07.859
given just a few seconds to kind of, well, there's the flashback

610
00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:10.380
and we're kind of living with it for a few minutes, but basically

611
00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:14.099
after it happens, within seconds, we're being told she's being

612
00:28:14.099 --> 00:28:15.299
taken away to get fixed.

613
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.299
And it's not brutal or able to be dismissed.

614
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:21.359
Bill's not being shot because she's black or a lesbian.

615
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:24.480
It's because she's an amazing character and Motha wants to do

616
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:25.980
terrible things to his amazing characters.

617
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:26.460
Yeah.

618
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:26.880
Yeah.

619
00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:29.039
Yes, I just character whom we love.

620
00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:30.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

621
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:33.539
I think that kind of thing, if it's referred to as bury your gaze

622
00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:34.079
kind of thing.

623
00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:36.660
I haven't heard that as the expression before, I think that's not

624
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:37.440
a thing anymore.

625
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:39.240
I think that's something that used to happen.

626
00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:43.619
I mean, maybe I've been to enough films, like the gay and lesbian

627
00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:47.460
film festival, which end with the happy romance being torn apart

628
00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:48.660
because one of the gays is killed.

629
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.680
It is a real, it is a real thing which happens and which happened

630
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:55.980
throughout film and TV where the gay characters were not allowed

631
00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:56.880
to have a happy ending.

632
00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:00.420
I don't think this satisfies that because I think Mothat's more

633
00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:01.079
than aware of that.

634
00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:02.339
But you know, it is a thing.

635
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.619
And he does give her a happy ending.

636
00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:05.400
He does.

637
00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:06.779
Exactly. with Stargirl.

638
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:07.559
Yeah, yeah.

639
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:08.940
Happy lesbian ending.

640
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.200
Exactly.

641
00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:14.400
But do you think it's convenient, like, the hole in the chest, like

642
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:17.519
sort of works with the whole chest plate thing. the fact that the

643
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:21.660
people down below have time is going quicker, so, but their

644
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:23.880
technology obviously links back to what's here.

645
00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:28.440
So the phaser has to make that particular hole in the chest as

646
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.140
opposed to a general thing and then you have the horror of when

647
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:33.119
she wakes up and she's going like that on the blade.

648
00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:34.259
And we all know.

649
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:38.160
There's that moment where she says, I haven't been game to look at

650
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:38.400
it.

651
00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:41.880
You know, like Razor says, how's your new heart?

652
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:43.859
You know, it's very shiny. you can pull it off.

653
00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:46.079
It's pretty great.

654
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:48.779
I think it's it's perfect.

655
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:49.859
Do you know what I mean?

656
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.099
Because we've had the dialogue where the doctor has said it's your

657
00:29:53.099 --> 00:29:56.039
most important organ and you've only got one of them.

658
00:29:56.099 --> 00:29:58.019
There's no backup.

659
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:02.279
So he said that in order to kind of anticipate that, even though

660
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:05.039
we only hear it after we've seen that.

661
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:09.420
I'd suggest that her lungs, stomach and large intestine have also

662
00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:10.140
been destroyed.

663
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:12.960
Yeah, I mean, apparently we could have seen that.

664
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:16.980
Fortunately, we don't have to think about it too much because it

665
00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:18.539
is very kind of insane.

666
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:20.579
It's the death becomes her special affair.

667
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:21.779
Yes, yes, yes.

668
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:23.880
You have to imagine that Simon pulling out the intestine, saying

669
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:24.660
these are full of chips.

670
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.480
I mean, but it even has sort of a glowy thing around it so there's

671
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:31.619
no blood or brawl.

672
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.440
Yes, it's all men. yes The energy weapon.

673
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:36.539
The energy weapon has cauterised the word.

674
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:40.680
It's a similar kind of shock, as in 90s Star Trek, when they turn

675
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:42.000
up the phases to maximum.

676
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.980
They just shoot people, they evaporate them.

677
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.440
Yeah, yeah, like they burn up into cinders.

678
00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:48.779
We don't have to clean up then.

679
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:49.740
Exactly.

680
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:51.420
No dust on the floor.

681
00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:09.119
Can I just talk about the sci fi element of the way the whole

682
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.940
story can work, which is the black hole, and the fact that the

683
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:14.519
gravity at the top of the shift means that time is moving much

684
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:15.900
slower than the bottom of the ship.

685
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:20.880
It's so refreshing to have those kind of concepts, and I have no

686
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:23.519
idea how correctly it's used, but it's so wonderful to have those

687
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:28.259
kind of concepts coming back into the show and explained so well

688
00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:32.339
by both the razor at the bottom and the doctor at the top. don't

689
00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:36.299
you think Yeah, and Rachel Tallerlay and Stephen Moffat both sell

690
00:31:36.299 --> 00:31:37.559
it in incredibly well.

691
00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:41.759
We said that thing a few episodes ago about the fact in oxygen

692
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.039
about the fact that the special effect shots have to be

693
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:46.319
sympathetic to the storytelling to tell you where you are.

694
00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:48.299
Obviously, we are told we're at the top of the ship, the bottom

695
00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:51.599
ship, but that initial special effects shot where it's going

696
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.240
through the ship and you're seeing each of the floors, it places

697
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:55.440
everything into context.

698
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:57.960
And they're sideways because you can see that they're flawed

699
00:31:58.019 --> 00:31:59.160
perfect storytelling.

700
00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:00.059
Yeah.

701
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:03.960
I mean, Russell was the one who kind of brought verticality to

702
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.140
Doctor Who, which he does in the end of the world, but he does

703
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:12.180
kind of over and over again by having us go up and down in what is

704
00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:13.140
a flat studio.

705
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:17.039
So adding an extra dimension to Doctor Who, which has historically

706
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:18.299
been kind of flat.

707
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:20.700
And then here he does.

708
00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:21.539
Just underworld thing.

709
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.960
You just change, you just change the number on the panel.

710
00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:26.759
I think we've done that before.

711
00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:29.880
And so here.

712
00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:36.420
Basically, this 2 parter has a control room, a farm, and the

713
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:37.380
hospital floor.

714
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:42.359
Like it has 3 places, but they're all linked together in this sort

715
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:45.000
of weird space that's been created.

716
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:50.460
And it's a space where time passes differently at one end from

717
00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:56.339
another, which enables Moffatt to do the thing which he does, which

718
00:32:56.339 --> 00:33:02.700
is making the flashbacks real and making the switching from one

719
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:05.640
narrative thread to another real.

720
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.960
So I think we saw this in a Christmas carol, where everything

721
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:13.440
happens in chronological order, but there are flashbacks.

722
00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:16.920
Like we flash back to Kasran Sardic's use.

723
00:33:16.980 --> 00:33:21.000
Even though there aren't any flashbacks in that story, they're all

724
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:21.779
happening in real time.

725
00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:23.759
Tartis links them together.

726
00:33:23.819 --> 00:33:24.420
That's right.

727
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.720
So what he does is he uses time travel to get his narrative things

728
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:28.200
to happen.

729
00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:28.859
Yeah.

730
00:33:28.859 --> 00:33:31.200
And when they're watching it on TV.

731
00:33:31.259 --> 00:33:35.700
I mean, the genius about it is that that environment, that

732
00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:40.019
hospital environment, which you pegged as kind of 1950s.

733
00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:40.859
Yes, it's the fold.

734
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.740
Yeah, and the style and just the look of it.

735
00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:47.279
Just that idea of sort of grim NHS hospitals.

736
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:51.059
Yeah, they're just sort of like limewashed hospital rooms and, you

737
00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:53.700
know...

738
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:54.359
Yes, exactly.

739
00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:55.619
Or the tiles on the wall.

740
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.640
Like, you know.

741
00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:02.579
I mean, that's kind of the world that the cider men came into in

742
00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:03.480
1966.

743
00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:04.680
Exactly that world.

744
00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:10.079
And they're watching the screen, which is has visible lines on it

745
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:14.460
and is in black and white and is visibly distorted.

746
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.219
That's what the experience of watching Doctor Who was like.

747
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:19.199
In fact, the screen's a bit larger.

748
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:21.000
Yes, but give them that.

749
00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:26.880
But essentially, we are watching the birth of the cyberman. you

750
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:27.300
know what I mean?

751
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.159
and we're having...

752
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:30.179
And the reception's a bit crappy.

753
00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:34.440
But the birth of the cybermen takes place in an environment, in

754
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.679
the same environment into which the cybermen were actually born in

755
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:38.880
1966.

756
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:41.699
And I think that's absolutely brilliant.

757
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.420
And it also explains the different environments, doesn't it?

758
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.800
Because time has been passing so quickly downstairs, everything is

759
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:53.340
falling to pieces because even though it was a brand new spaceship

760
00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:55.980
it's not brand new at the end at the bottom end anymore.

761
00:34:56.039 --> 00:35:00.360
No, it's, it's, and it's had all the fumes of the rocket, uh, go

762
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:00.900
into it and so on.

763
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:04.619
I think there's kind of an urban class thing that he is drawing

764
00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:04.860
there.

765
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:07.679
He's not leaning to it very much, but it is that, you know, people

766
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.619
basically living in, in a city environment's being choked by fumes

767
00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:12.360
and smog, et cetera, et cetera.

768
00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:16.079
But what struck me is that even though it's a very different story

769
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.800
from spare parts, the big finish audio that does the origin of the

770
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:21.179
Sidemen, the setting is the same.

771
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:27.059
Yeah, it's sort of a grim, dark, stone industrial world with a

772
00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:27.960
steel sky above it.

773
00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:32.340
But spare parts is kind of set in England in the 1950s as well.

774
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:33.480
Right, right.

775
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:37.800
You know, that it has that very mid-20th century kind of post

776
00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:40.139
world war 2 just come off rationing.

777
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. like scarcity and stuff.

778
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:46.019
And there's a kind of, I mean, there is a kind of mid-20th century

779
00:35:46.019 --> 00:35:50.099
English socialism kind of feel to what's going on in spare parts

780
00:35:50.099 --> 00:35:50.760
as well.

781
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:54.539
And that's what he's grabbed here.

782
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.380
I mean, I think I think this has a fair claim to being the best

783
00:35:58.380 --> 00:36:02.820
Cyberman story, and that's not a hugely difficult feat, to be

784
00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:03.119
fair.

785
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:08.519
There's an invasion, which is not really a sign that story.

786
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:09.840
To be honest.

787
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:10.679
But, um...

788
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:12.420
Cyberman stories usually aren't quite silent.

789
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:13.380
To have Cyberman.

790
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:22.199
And it's the best telling of the genesis of the Cyberman, I

791
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:22.380
think.

792
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:26.099
What I love is the fact that you can just put this into the

793
00:36:26.099 --> 00:36:29.579
history of Doctor Who, like, you know, you can see that Mondas, you

794
00:36:29.579 --> 00:36:32.159
know, they've had to send this ship out because they're all dying

795
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:34.920
and this is one way to try and get help or whatever they're doing

796
00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:36.179
their version of the ark.

797
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:36.719
Yes.

798
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:37.800
Basically, yes.

799
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:41.579
And, you know, they obviously end up in the 10th planet, but here

800
00:36:41.579 --> 00:36:44.340
they're evolving on their planet into cybermen.

801
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:48.539
Here, they're evolving as well, down below, and you go outside

802
00:36:48.539 --> 00:36:52.320
into that 50s horror, and it's so well realised.

803
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:54.059
Like, it really is.

804
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:57.900
And I hadn't really picked up on it before, even like, you know, I

805
00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:00.900
think it's above the theatre where it says like the time at the

806
00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:02.460
top of the ship under the bottom of the ship.

807
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.960
And I hadn't picked that up before.

808
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:10.559
Like, you know, and just having all of this natural evolution that

809
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:13.380
there's still evolving in 2 different places and it's still

810
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:18.599
heading to the same point, you know, it just enthrals me and draws

811
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:19.019
me in.

812
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.039
The thing I love that, the doctor's line, maybe it's the next

813
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.460
episode where he says that wherever humans are, Sargeman will

814
00:37:26.460 --> 00:37:31.380
inevitably be born, which is kind of a great fudge of we've had

815
00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:34.139
many different Genesis of the Sidemen stories.

816
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.840
I haven't actually listened to spare parts and I keep saying I

817
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:37.500
really, really should.

818
00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:38.519
So I can't compare it.

819
00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:40.559
It is one of the best.

820
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:43.559
So how does it treat the rationale for why they're turning

821
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:44.579
themselves into cybermen?

822
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:48.659
Well, because Mondas is travelling through interstellar space.

823
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:49.260
Yes.

824
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:54.780
And so the atmosphere is frozen and they're all living below and

825
00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:56.460
they're just getting sick. getting sicker.

826
00:37:56.519 --> 00:38:00.059
Yeah, and Jenna from Bleak 7 is turning them into Cybermen.

827
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:00.840
Oh, is she?

828
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:01.679
Good on her.

829
00:38:01.739 --> 00:38:03.360
Docman Allen, yeah.

830
00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:05.519
If I can, you know, I love this episode.

831
00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:06.300
Okay.

832
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:10.380
And I love the 2 parts together, but watching them again, I

833
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:12.599
thought this at the time when they were on, but watching them

834
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.559
again, it just takes a few directional choices, which I think, wow

835
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:18.119
it could have been so much better if it had done something else.

836
00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:23.519
The downside, I feel, with this episode is, and I love having the

837
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.579
genesis of the sidemen, because they're all sick and they're all

838
00:38:26.579 --> 00:38:30.000
ill and this needs to happen, which is not what you get in the

839
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:33.900
series 2, the genesis of the time, which is, for me, very, very

840
00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:36.179
trite and lightweight by comparison.

841
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:36.840
Yes.

842
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:39.000
In this, there's a reason.

843
00:38:39.059 --> 00:38:40.559
Yes, people are sick.

844
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:42.480
They are dying, they need replacement.

845
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:45.900
What I think is unfortunate is that there is nothing in the role

846
00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:50.159
of the doctor and the nurse that is in any way sympathetic or in

847
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.559
any way conflicted by what they're doing.

848
00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:56.699
What you want is, rather than, you know, the doctor, the surgeon

849
00:38:56.699 --> 00:38:59.400
doing the surgery is effectively a kind of effectively moustache

850
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:00.239
twirling.

851
00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:04.079
He's comically evil in a way which does not, for me, suit the tone

852
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:05.280
of the rest of the episode.

853
00:39:05.340 --> 00:39:10.320
Likewise, the nurse, the, the, you know, the big fat, chubby, nurse

854
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.039
ratchet kind of figure.

855
00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:15.599
It's kind of, again, a very cardboard, unfortunate choice for a

856
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:19.320
story and episode which is in every other way, not cardboard.

857
00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:22.559
Oh, no, I think they are both marvellously well cast.

858
00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:24.179
But imagine the story.

859
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:25.199
Imagine the story.

860
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:28.860
And this only works if what we have as the 1st part is actually

861
00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:33.179
the whole story because in that thing that happens sort of after

862
00:39:33.179 --> 00:39:34.139
series six.

863
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:36.000
You don't really get 2 part stories.

864
00:39:36.059 --> 00:39:39.659
You get an episode followed by another episode which cliffhangers

865
00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:39.900
into.

866
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:40.619
You know what I mean?

867
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:44.340
So the next episode is effectively a different story. which is

868
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:44.940
like the sequel.

869
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.239
And one of the things we lack in the modern era is we get so

870
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.559
rarely is the ancillary character, the supporting cast member who

871
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:55.679
you really empathise with, who you really are barracking for and

872
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:57.300
you're incredibly involved with.

873
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:02.039
Now, if you make the surgeon and the nurse more three-dimensional

874
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.440
and say that look, we have no choice.

875
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:07.800
We have to do this for you because if we don't, you will die.

876
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:09.840
Rather than, wow, your time has come.

877
00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:11.039
We're going to turn you into silent.

878
00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:13.800
And that's just like, oh, we've we've ran our reversion to that

879
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:14.219
trope.

880
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:18.059
Well, I mean, I think, though, that the environment that Bill

881
00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:23.219
finds herself in is hyper real and like it's not a space

882
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:24.000
environment.

883
00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:29.820
It is 1950s hospital, even though it's people from another planet

884
00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:31.199
and all of that sort of thing.

885
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:34.320
And it's the thing that Doctor Who does now and probably didn't

886
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.420
really much do in the classic era.

887
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.639
And they are, I think, part of the horror, the nurse who comes and

888
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:46.139
turns the volume down on everyone. and the surgeon.

889
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:51.179
There's so much of the horror is that horrible surgery.

890
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:52.800
It's not a space surgery.

891
00:40:52.860 --> 00:40:55.380
It's not like the Biow Foundation.

892
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:57.960
Like all the medical...

893
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:03.420
The gleaming futuristic medical technology on board.

894
00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:06.300
Flashing light, flashing lights, computer screens with gold.

895
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:08.400
I would have loved to see him come and turn the volume down on the

896
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:09.719
nucleus.

897
00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:14.880
But my point is still that, yes, no, I do get all that.

898
00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:18.599
I understand all that, but I think my point is no one's going to

899
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:21.659
willingly, willingly turn themselves into assignment.

900
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:22.440
You're only going to do that.

901
00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:25.920
You know, it's not like you say, oh, I think I'll go out today and

902
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:27.360
get an artificial heart installed.

903
00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:30.300
You only do that is because you've got heart disease and you need

904
00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:31.260
to have that done.

905
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.280
But where I think it does get it right is then when the assertion

906
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.619
says, oh, but you know, I know it's painful, but we've developed

907
00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:40.199
this thing now that will mean that you won't.

908
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:43.739
Or at least you won't care. which is terribly gruesome.

909
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:44.880
But again, it's that thing.

910
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.940
So for me, the evolution, that early evolution, the sidement, is

911
00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:49.920
because, 0 my god, we're disease, we're dying.

912
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:51.420
We need to replace bits of our body.

913
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:52.559
Oh my god, this hurts.

914
00:41:52.619 --> 00:41:53.219
What can we do?

915
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:55.679
Oh, we can. can give you this to make it better.

916
00:41:55.739 --> 00:41:58.320
Oh my god, we've now got to replace this and that's actually

917
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:00.780
making me go crazy because I just can't deal with it anymore.

918
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:03.360
Okay, well, the only solution to that is to take your emotions

919
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.820
away because otherwise you'll just go crazy.

920
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:06.960
And do you know what I mean?

921
00:42:07.019 --> 00:42:10.320
Like, for me, that's the kind of, I really wanted to see that as

922
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.639
an evolutionary development rather than, and was doing that so

923
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.119
well, until then suddenly at the end, it just said, oh, well, we

924
00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.039
haven't got time to do the rest, so we'll just go straight to the

925
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:20.340
thing.

926
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:22.320
So I imagine what it would have been like at the 2nd episode.

927
00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:23.519
I do broadly agree with you.

928
00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:24.239
That would have been nice.

929
00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:27.960
I also think there's quite a nice thing in making the doctor and

930
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:30.300
the nurse a little bit faceless. so they're just part of the

931
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:30.719
horror.

932
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:32.039
I do agree with that.

933
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:35.699
I also think that that line, which takes the place a lot of that

934
00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:39.840
kind of story evolution, where the doctor in the hospital says to

935
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:41.699
Bill in a surprisingly chip away.

936
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:43.860
Oh yes, we've got something for that now.

937
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:47.579
It won't make you stop feeling pain, but it will make you stop

938
00:42:47.579 --> 00:42:48.420
caring about it.

939
00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:51.000
It's just an absolutely chilling line.

940
00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:52.199
It is a chilling line.

941
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:53.760
And he is jolly.

942
00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:54.659
Do you know what I mean?

943
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:59.159
Like, he is a sort of like a jolly white professional guy with a

944
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:03.300
posh voice who I think, you know, like seems to be trying to kind

945
00:43:03.300 --> 00:43:04.559
of jolly her along.

946
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:08.219
Like he's not like he is super evil and stuff like that.

947
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:11.519
But, like, I think what has happened is that we've reached the

948
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:12.300
point already.

949
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:16.739
Like we don't quite arrive early enough for any of that because

950
00:43:16.739 --> 00:43:19.739
we're now at the point where the cybermen are making other people

951
00:43:19.739 --> 00:43:20.760
into cybermen.

952
00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:24.480
We send Cyberman up the lift in order to harvest people.

953
00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:25.320
Yeah.

954
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.760
They're walking wounded.

955
00:43:26.820 --> 00:43:28.380
They've got bits of themselves.

956
00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:29.340
No, she's the first one.

957
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:31.559
I mean, she's the 1st full cyberman.

958
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:34.380
The Bill Potts that we see is the 1st person.

959
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:38.099
It's the 1st time we see a full cyberman outfit.

960
00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:40.380
And it's her.

961
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:45.119
So she gets to be the 1st cyberman of this iteration of cyberman.

962
00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:47.159
Why wasn't she voiced by David Banks?

963
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.179
Well, she was still voiced by Nick Briggs. for God's sake.

964
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:52.920
I mean, what do you want?

965
00:43:52.980 --> 00:43:55.440
But, I don't know, variety.

966
00:43:56.880 --> 00:44:01.500
And one of the things, too, that I don't think, I mean, we haven't

967
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:05.400
mentioned, but is obviously front of mind for everyone is the

968
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:10.260
incredible formal constraint, again, that where Moffatt sets

969
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:14.460
himself a challenge and the challenge is make the ridiculous

970
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:17.579
cyberman, the ridiculous cyberman.

971
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:18.239
We think they're great.

972
00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:21.780
I do anyway, and I know you do too, Pete, at the side. in the 10th

973
00:44:21.780 --> 00:44:22.139
planet.

974
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.320
Can they be made to work on telly in 2017?

975
00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:29.400
And it turns out that they can be made to work even better on

976
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:30.780
telly in 2017.

977
00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:33.480
And that's amazing, I think.

978
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:37.739
The one disappointment is that they reverts to the kind of the age

979
00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:40.679
of steel style stomping stomping like the sound when she...

980
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:41.099
Yeah, yeah.

981
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:43.860
I think that's unfortunate because, and this is where I think

982
00:44:43.860 --> 00:44:47.400
again, you know, that that 2006 iteration of the cyberman gets it

983
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.460
so wrong and then it continues to be wrong from then on, apart

984
00:44:50.460 --> 00:44:53.159
from this, is that the cyberman are not steel, they're not metal

985
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:53.940
they're plastic.

986
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:58.139
The whole point is it's about the replacement of body parts, which

987
00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:00.719
are going to be malleable, are going to be flexible.

988
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:02.280
It's not a suit of armour.

989
00:45:02.340 --> 00:45:04.619
And that's one of the reasons why the, I think the 10th planet

990
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:07.320
sidemen work so well is because I know that they're put together

991
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:11.340
in 1966 on the smell of an oly rag with bits of ping-pong walls or

992
00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:12.480
whatever the hell it is and so on.

993
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:16.260
But in some respects, that sells the concept of them so well

994
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:18.179
because these people are desperate.

995
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.639
They've had to use anything to replace bits of their body.

996
00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:25.019
And I think the slight refreshing of that look for this episode, um

997
00:45:25.019 --> 00:45:27.360
while still keeping the fact that, right, they've got a stocking

998
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:29.579
on their head because basically that's artificial skin.

999
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:33.659
They've put like this kind of hash on them. like burn exactly like

1000
00:45:33.659 --> 00:45:34.619
burns victims.

1001
00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:35.820
They've got artificial eyes.

1002
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.780
There is still a body inside that is able to open their mouth and

1003
00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:42.420
the artificial sound comes out of their open mouth.

1004
00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:45.119
They actually, you know, they're not articulating it, but it's

1005
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:46.139
coming out because there is a computer.

1006
00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:48.239
Well, we see it because they've got the computer that they press

1007
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:48.840
the button on.

1008
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.380
Exactly.

1009
00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:50.760
They're pressing the button on.

1010
00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:51.599
The fact that they've got these.

1011
00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:54.840
I mean, in 1966, they're just the artist's hands.

1012
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:57.599
But we've kind of slightly updated that to have like effectively

1013
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:01.860
fairly grotty latex gloves that don't even fitting quite properly

1014
00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:03.599
over their thing as artificial skin.

1015
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:07.800
I think the reason for that is so that you don't have Bill's

1016
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:08.340
hands.

1017
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.420
Do you know what I mean?

1018
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:11.820
with her manicured fingernails and things.

1019
00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:14.519
Well, I assume.

1020
00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:17.400
I mean, is it is it the actress in the Sidemen scene?

1021
00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:19.320
Oh, no, because it's taller.

1022
00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:19.980
Exactly.

1023
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:21.960
But that's that's also Y too.

1024
00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:25.079
But also, I think it's actually pretty horrific because it's not

1025
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:27.599
it's not, you know, as going back to that thing you were saying.

1026
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:30.239
It's not kind of like a super spacy thing with people in tunics

1027
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.400
and everything like that and white walls and...

1028
00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:34.800
And it's not it's not cricket glove spray paint.

1029
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.260
No, that's getting wet to the past, yeah.

1030
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:39.780
There's no getting away from the fact that it makes the sidemen

1031
00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:42.659
infinitely more interesting in concepts and to look at.

1032
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.239
They're not just silver monsters walking around.

1033
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:48.659
They're back to being the walking wounded who have this awful

1034
00:46:48.659 --> 00:46:50.159
uncanny valley look to them.

1035
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:50.760
Yes.

1036
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.820
And the show threw that away pretty quickly in the classic

1037
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:54.420
series.

1038
00:46:54.539 --> 00:46:56.460
And, you know, 4 stories.

1039
00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:59.219
Yeah, although they've still got the idea, and even through to

1040
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:03.300
like the 80s side, and you've still got kind of a flexible metal

1041
00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:06.480
you know, obviously it's just spray painted silver, but you know

1042
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:06.840
what I mean?

1043
00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:09.900
Rather than what you get in the naughties and teens, which is

1044
00:47:09.900 --> 00:47:12.420
where you get effectively like the suit of armour with just the

1045
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:13.800
knee joints and the elbow joints.

1046
00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:15.960
Yeah, I mean, the reason that we have the suit of armour is

1047
00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:19.079
because it's protecting them against their emotions.

1048
00:47:19.139 --> 00:47:20.039
Yeah, I know.

1049
00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:20.639
It's fine.

1050
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:22.800
I get that idea.

1051
00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:23.699
No, right?

1052
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:25.980
That's not, you know, yeah, no.

1053
00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:29.639
It's, it's, it's the whole point is that they are replaced

1054
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:31.559
replacements to their boys, and I think that is much better

1055
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:34.500
communicated in something that looks like a 10th planet site.

1056
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.199
Yeah, I agree. does with what they become, which is basically

1057
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:38.639
effectively just androids.

1058
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:41.460
We could talk about the voice all day long.

1059
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.179
Yeah.

1060
00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:45.539
But I remember Roy Skelton in one of the DVD extras back in the

1061
00:47:45.539 --> 00:47:47.519
day, talking about doing the voice.

1062
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:50.760
And I think the way the voice worked really well back then, even

1063
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:53.280
though it's a bit when you 1st hear it, you go, what are they

1064
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:53.460
doing?

1065
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:57.059
But then you kind of lean into it, and I think that they do it a

1066
00:47:57.059 --> 00:47:58.500
little bit, but they could do it more now.

1067
00:47:58.559 --> 00:47:59.099
Yes.

1068
00:47:59.099 --> 00:48:01.860
They could have done it more for this, is the fact that it is like

1069
00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:03.059
you know, you're pressing a keyboard.

1070
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:06.360
It is Stephen Hawkings in terms of, you know, you've typed the

1071
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:07.920
thing out on your pad.

1072
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:12.179
And the computer is just reading it out in a very random way

1073
00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:15.119
because it is taking time on some of the way. you know what I

1074
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:15.239
mean?

1075
00:48:15.300 --> 00:48:19.320
And that's the kind of thing that I think they got so right in 66

1076
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:20.880
and I think it actually could have been lent into a little bit

1077
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:21.539
more in this.

1078
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.300
Maybe it would affect people out too much because it would, it's

1079
00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:24.780
very freaky.

1080
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.599
They do it in spare parts and it works incredibly.

1081
00:48:27.659 --> 00:48:29.699
Right, in fact, Simon, that was so good. trying to say.

1082
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:30.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1083
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:32.039
Crowl or Tara.

1084
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:33.119
Yes, yes, yes.

1085
00:48:33.179 --> 00:48:36.539
And the fact that those 1st cybermen have names, because they are

1086
00:48:36.539 --> 00:48:40.800
still, they were people, whereas this whole thing, and this

1087
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.019
episode, unfortunately, leans into it a little bit too, that we

1088
00:48:43.019 --> 00:48:45.239
get, you know, all they're doing is they're mass producing

1089
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:45.900
cybermen.

1090
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:49.199
It loses the concept of them being having having been at some

1091
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:50.159
point individuals.

1092
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:53.940
Okay, we get one or 2 of them being individuals, but it's just, I

1093
00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:57.119
think the beauty of the original cybern still struggles to be seen

1094
00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:57.780
sometimes.

1095
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.780
And there's also something to be said for context because we

1096
00:49:00.780 --> 00:49:02.940
learned from something quite modern under that if you want to

1097
00:49:02.940 --> 00:49:05.460
bring the brigadier back, it doesn't work to bring back a

1098
00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:08.280
character and strip them of all of their context and plug them

1099
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:10.860
into kind of a multicoloured 80 story.

1100
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:14.579
The sidemen here, the 10 planet sidemen work because of the grim

1101
00:49:14.579 --> 00:49:15.420
backdrop.

1102
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:16.320
They fit in.

1103
00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:18.420
The aesthetic is all correct.

1104
00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:20.880
All I can say is this.

1105
00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:22.739
A Mondacian cyberman?

1106
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.719
A Chalosian cyber?

1107
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:25.019
Yes.

1108
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:26.579
Of Organian cyber?

1109
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:28.860
An attack of the Cyberman.

1110
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.380
Attack the cyberman cyberman.

1111
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:33.599
Sorry, I've been waiting to say that.

1112
00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:43.800
Really interesting discussion there, Simon.

1113
00:49:43.860 --> 00:49:47.820
Like, your perspective on that whole backstory, and obviously for

1114
00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:50.940
time, we couldn't do it for the actual feeling that they were

1115
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:54.659
going for it, and certainly I think that it could have been, we

1116
00:49:54.659 --> 00:49:57.059
didn't see it because it's already happened, and you know, all

1117
00:49:57.059 --> 00:49:58.260
those people lining up outside.

1118
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:00.300
They've just, you know, they know they have to go through that

1119
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:03.119
process, but you've made a lot of good points, but I don't think

1120
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:04.920
it attracts on the episode happening like that at all.

1121
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:07.800
I understand what you're saying.

1122
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.440
Yeah, that's why I was saying it. it's only a 9.8 out of 10.

1123
00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:12.599
It's 120 out of 10.

1124
00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:18.539
One of my favourite moments from the series 2 cybermen's stories

1125
00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:23.159
is all of the population of London, just marching into Battersea

1126
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:27.059
Power Station, to be, yeah, to be sawn up and turned into

1127
00:50:27.059 --> 00:50:27.599
cybermen.

1128
00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:28.679
But that's why it's just dicky.

1129
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:29.219
Do you know what I mean?

1130
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.300
I know that's kind of awesome.

1131
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:32.820
But this, do you know what I mean?

1132
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:37.019
Like that site of, and there's more of it next week, I think, where

1133
00:50:37.019 --> 00:50:41.039
there's more fire and stuff in the sky and it looks more

1134
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:41.699
terrifying.

1135
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:45.360
And it just turns into this sort of, you know, Hieronymus Bosch

1136
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:48.719
sort of hellscape in which everyone's turning into a cyberman.

1137
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:49.800
And that's my point.

1138
00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:52.260
At the risk of harping on your acid, I don't want to see people

1139
00:50:52.260 --> 00:50:54.960
being marched into Battersea Power Station.

1140
00:50:55.019 --> 00:50:58.619
I want to see people limping of their own accord into Battersea

1141
00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:00.719
Power Station because they have no choice.

1142
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:02.760
I mean, that kind of is what you get here.

1143
00:51:02.820 --> 00:51:03.539
Exactly.

1144
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:05.519
And that's what you get here a bit more.

1145
00:51:05.579 --> 00:51:09.360
You get, they're being led. being kind of chaperoned by the partly

1146
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:12.840
converted cybermen, but they've kind of realised they're all

1147
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:15.900
outside, they're sick, they're dying, and they're holding off as

1148
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:16.380
long as they can.

1149
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.260
And then a day, they wake up one day and go, stuff it.

1150
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:20.159
I have to do this.

1151
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.699
Let around by impassive Nurse Ratchet, who probably thinks she's

1152
00:51:23.699 --> 00:51:24.360
doing them a favour.

1153
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:40.440
The horror of everything building towards the end of the episode

1154
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:43.679
and the end of the episode, like the reveal that this is Bill, at

1155
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:48.900
the same time as Missy and the master, you know, reveal, and then

1156
00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:52.440
for Nardo and the doctor to be standing there and Missy comes in

1157
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:54.179
you met the ex.

1158
00:51:54.420 --> 00:51:59.579
Yeah, and the look on Peter's face is just sublime.

1159
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:02.460
But then the whole buildup too.

1160
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:02.940
I waited.

1161
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:07.260
I waited for you, which the doctor placed in her mind as she was

1162
00:52:07.260 --> 00:52:08.699
led away at the beginning of the episode.

1163
00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:13.320
And then that whole, the camera shot into the eye socket and the

1164
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:14.159
tear and all that.

1165
00:52:14.219 --> 00:52:17.820
Like, it's just, it's really one of the darkest things Doctor

1166
00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:18.780
Who's ever done, I think.

1167
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:20.099
Gruesome.

1168
00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:23.940
And I think too, Russell made the right decision to say the

1169
00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:27.000
sidemen could look like anything, but they must have the teardrop

1170
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:31.019
which 1st appears in...

1171
00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:34.139
The invasion, I think, where...

1172
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.679
And the teardrop is clearly just there so that the actors can see

1173
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:39.179
out of the mask, right?

1174
00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:42.179
Like, that's why the teardrops there are.

1175
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:44.340
You'll find that the teardrops are in the wheel in space because

1176
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:46.679
the actors inside are going, what am I doing in this rubbish?

1177
00:52:47.460 --> 00:52:52.440
And so that becomes a thing because for Russell, the horror of the

1178
00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:56.699
sidemen is that they have had something done to them that's so

1179
00:52:56.699 --> 00:53:01.079
horrible that they have to have their emotions wiped or controlled

1180
00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:01.920
or suppressed.

1181
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:04.800
And so they have that teardrop representing it.

1182
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:08.159
And here you have the cybermen, the original cybermen that don't

1183
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:12.239
have the teardrop, but the teardrop comes back for that final

1184
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:12.960
shot.

1185
00:53:13.019 --> 00:53:16.559
So the teardrop comes out of the eye, in the spot where it appears

1186
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:22.440
in the other cyberman, and, of course, it prefigures how Bill gets

1187
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:23.579
out of all of this as well.

1188
00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:27.539
This is so clever and dark and well written and well made.

1189
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:28.679
We didn't know what we had.

1190
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:30.840
Yeah, so it's like this, we're going up.

1191
00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:33.599
It is, if I could just summarise that, it is clever.

1192
00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:38.880
It is elegant and it is beautifully put together and I think those

1193
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:40.380
3 things only happen.

1194
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:42.059
They don't happen every week.

1195
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:45.000
And sometimes you get 2 of the three.

1196
00:53:45.059 --> 00:53:47.820
But I think absolute thing.

1197
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:50.280
And just because I'm not on the next episode, I just think it does

1198
00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:53.820
go, it becomes a different story, which is fine, which is also

1199
00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:56.159
very good and interesting and wonderful in exploring something

1200
00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:56.519
else.

1201
00:53:56.579 --> 00:53:58.139
I wish it hadn't.

1202
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:01.440
I wish we'd have had kind of like a 90 minutes of the genesis of

1203
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:02.039
the cyberman.

1204
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:28.260
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

1205
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:32.219
We'll be back next week to stand with the doctor in the doctor

1206
00:54:32.219 --> 00:54:32.820
falls.

1207
00:54:34.019 --> 00:54:37.800
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1208
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:41.280
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety

1209
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:44.340
com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to

1210
00:54:44.340 --> 00:54:48.539
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts

1211
00:54:48.539 --> 00:54:52.079
500-year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1212
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:58.019
Until next time, though we cannot make our son stand still, yet we

1213
00:54:58.019 --> 00:54:58.860
will make him run.

1214
00:54:58.980 --> 00:55:01.679
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1215
00:55:01.739 --> 00:55:03.119
See you soon.

1216
00:55:03.179 --> 00:55:03.900
Good night.

1217
00:55:03.960 --> 00:55:04.739
Bye for now.

1218
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:14.579
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todby, Nathan Bottomley

1219
00:55:14.579 --> 00:55:17.460
Peter Griffiths, and Simon Moore, theme arrangement by Cameron

1220
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:18.239
Lamb.

1221
00:55:18.300 --> 00:55:21.719
This episode, Check My CV, was recorded on the 3rd of November

1222
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:24.780
2024 and released on the 24th of November.

1223
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:29.519
Of course, if we'd had gravitational time dilation back in the

1224
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:33.780
1980s, Terror of the Vervoids would have been 283 episodes long.

1225
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:36.179
But I think that that might have been quite a good thing.

1226
00:55:45.539 --> 00:55:51.840
But I absolutely am carried through that next episode by John Sim

1227
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:55.559
and...

1228
00:55:55.619 --> 00:55:57.900
I'm absolutely carried through by John Simmons, Michelle Gomez.

1229
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:01.079
I think their scenes together are absolutely spectacular and some

1230
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:04.500
of the best two-handed scenes in the program and particularly the

1231
00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:07.079
scene where their Capaldi is arguing with them about, you know

1232
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:08.820
this is this is what this is how it works.

1233
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:09.420
This is what I do.

1234
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:14.099
And, you know, Michelle, you know, Missy then saying, isn't this

1235
00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:16.800
what we always wanted to John Sims master?

1236
00:56:16.860 --> 00:56:21.900
And I just think it wraps up the whole missy 3 years of missy

1237
00:56:21.900 --> 00:56:23.579
basically. so beautifully.

1238
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:26.400
Well, Simon, now we've got nothing to talk about next episode.

1239
00:56:27.059 --> 00:56:28.860
We can cut all that.

1240
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:30.119
Exactly.

1241
00:56:30.179 --> 00:56:31.800
Go the tag of next week's episode.

1242
00:56:31.860 --> 00:56:35.519
I can come down in one of your heart little bubbles.

1243
00:56:35.579 --> 00:56:38.400
They inspired a long time ago.