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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:04:12

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Hello, D listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that feels like this flight has been going on for years and years.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Peter.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, it's a rare moment of science fiction in Doctor Who this week, as the Doctor and Bill learn a valuable lesson about gravitational time dilation.

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But here, there are much more terrible lessons to be learned, lessons about who Missy is and about who we are as human beings when things are in crisis.

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It's time at last for the genesis of the cybermen, in world enough and time.

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This is another one, another Moffat finale that I remember on first viewing, being really stressed by.

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The last one was dark water, which I just found really kind of upsetting, and then this just the incredible urgency that you feel the entire time.

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It's really extremely good, I think.

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It's gruelling, I think.

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It's gruelling in terms of the story being told, and it's grim in its aesthetic.

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You know, the dark spaceship corridors and the 50s style NHS hospital that Bill ends up in.

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It's all very foreboding.

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Yeah, it's got great atmosphere.

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Yes, it's exactly the kind of doctor who I like.

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It just doesn't less up on that.

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It's just it's really, really strong all the way through.

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And I think also visually, it does also help to try and explain the situation with the spacecraft moving away from the black hole. you know, the different levels, the different things that are on different levels that you'll see more of next week.

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And so I think it's actually properly put together and properly thought through how this is going to work.

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Not to mention all the clever moving about in time itself, like, you know, flashbacks and flash forwards and so on like that.

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I think that works very well.

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And when we're getting those early sequences where the 3 of them are at the top and Bill is at the bottom, the way that passage of time is expressed is so clever, but also so harrowing and so upsetting for Bill, who's at the bottom watching an eyebrow raised slowly over the course of months, you know?

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Yeah, it's something that Moffat can do and very few other people can is to marry a strong sci-fi idea to actual emotions and characters that we love.

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That's not an accident that he can do that.

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That's incredible talent.

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Utterly brilliant from the get go.

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That whole sequence with Missy coming out of the target.

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Isn't it just, it's just delicious.

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When she was talking about exposition and comic relief, I fully expected Sarah Jane and Harry to come out of the times, kind of.

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That's just brilliant.

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That's a brilliant love, as well as the whole thing, Doctor Who, and what do you mean, it's his name?

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and she says, look at the screen.

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And then they cut to all the screens.

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It's very cleverly done It's, I mean, that is just absolute superb Moffat trolly that in his last episode.

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I think he does know, obviously, at this point that he is doing twice upon a time, because, of course, we start with a scene that leads straight into twice upon a time.

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But in his last kind of regular episode for the show, he canonises the idea that the doctor's name is Doctor Who. and that he chose it in order to be mysterious.

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And then he dropped it because he thought it was too on the nose.

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And given that that's kind of the history of the thing.

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And given...

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And we all spent our childhood going, no, no, no, it's not Doctor Who.

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You know, he would be called Doctor Who on TV or in newspaper articles or something.

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He was always referred to as Doctor Who by people who weren't us.

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And we knew that he was the doctor.

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And so Moffatt just on the way out the door just takes the opportunity to troll us.

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Even proving Peter Davis on the end credits of Castravalva part one incorrect.

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Yes.

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That's a good thing.

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You know, it's funny.

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We did an episode a couple of weeks ago and like Missy was just in at the end.

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That was the Empress of Mars.

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And then obviously I watched The Eaters of Light, where again, she is in the Tartars at the end.

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And I really at the time wanted to see in a complete episode with this team that they get out of, like, you know, where they go to the planet, they have to escape, et cetera, the whole 4 of them.

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But if we'd done that, this 1st sequence would be in that episode rather than here, right?

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So what do you do here?

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So it actually now on reflection and watching these episodes through.

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I just think it's it's just so delicious that it's here at the beginning of this.

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They're just setting everything up so well.

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And of course, we subsequently demonstrate that having 3 companions, which is effectively the setup you'd be talking about, is at least one too many, and that's yet to be reproven.

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I don't know, though, because I think Barbara Ian and Vicky work.

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Yes, but that's because we have 7 episode stories and things like that.

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Possibly.

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But I have to say, not possibly.

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Let's see how it goes next season.

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Yeah, no, I know it doesn't go well next season and I know it doesn't go well in the 80s, but I don't know that it's a bad idea necessarily.

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And certainly I think Nadol, Missy, Bill and this doctor would have been spectacular as a...

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Yeah, which of them do you want to cut?

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Yeah.

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No, you don't want to cut any of them.

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But my point being, the format of the way the stories are told needs to be different to the way it's being told in the 21st century for that team to work.

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I think what is funny is having the doctor in the Tartars eating crisps.

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Yes, yes, of watching them do an episode.

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Exactly.

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This is a trick where he offers a jelly baby to that child next episode.

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It should have been one of those Chris.

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Yes, actually.

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It also shows Missy, I mean, I know we've waxed lyrical over her and she is amazing in every scene and every episode that she's in, but she's so good and so watchful because she's so funny.

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And we haven't had another master who's been as funny as her, except maybe Delgado.

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And in both of those instances, you can see them not just being a match for the doctor, but they are alternate doctors, which is, of course, what this episode is playing with.

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You can fully see them as the lead in the show with just a couple of tweaks.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think that's absolutely right.

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We had that with John Sim as well.

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You know, we just plucked someone out of a nearby science fiction program on TV and made him the master, someone who had proven that they can be an alternative lead.

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And in fact, you do get that in the next episode as well where, like, isn't that what we always wanted?

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What a shame we do that in the 70s.

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We could have Martin Landau as the Martin.

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That would have been bad.

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I mean, the thing about this episode is that while it's bleak and miserable and really, really quite stressful to watch, it actually manages to be incredibly funny.

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And it's funny in these scenes with Missy, obviously, at the beginning.

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And then later on when we get Mr. Razor introduced, he's really funny.

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Yes, he has. good lines and he just thrown away.

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It's as if he's being written by Douglas Adams, I think. you know, stuff about the tea.

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Yeah, the tea, which will distract from the horrors to come.

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And she goes, what's the horrors to come?

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And he goes mostly the tea.

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Remember also the fact that you drink it while it's hot because the pain will...

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Distract from the flavour.

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Yeah, all of that stuff, like, you know, that wittering on about tea is classic Douglas Adams.

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It's like the, you know, one lump or two, you know, sugar.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's also classic Doctor Who.

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Doctor has always had a fixation with tea. and I like it.

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Yes, both of them.

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The Englishness itself.

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But it's also classic Doctor Who in the sense that everything that's going on is so foreboning and horrific, but the best Doctor Who has the comedy written into it into the character.

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And that's what I like.

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Exactly.

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And that's the thing that I think too often the modern era tends to get wrong, especially RTD is that basically it's not about the comedy.

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The comedy is the stuff that happens around the edges, which allows you to get through these fairly grim situations.

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Because obviously if it was all deadly serious, it would be unbearable.

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It would be awful.

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It would not be this program.

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It'd be true horror.

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Whereas you've got these horrific things going on and yet you've got all these characters making likes of it, including the doctor.

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I mean, to some extent.

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It's your example, Nathan.

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You love the horror of Fang rock.

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In fact, is it your favourite classic series story?

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It's not, but it's up there and it's one of my favourite portrayals of the doctor.

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Yeah, this goes to exactly the same well in that both of them are fairly bleak material and both of them are hilariously funny in places. places, yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, here, I guess the best illustration of that is that scene where Bill is exploring the hospital ward, where the people who have undergone conversion are, and that absolutely, like, absolutely moffety thing, where, you know, they're saying pain, pain, pain repeatedly, and there's the thing on top of the IV that turns the volume down.

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And you assume at 1st it's just giving them more medication.

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No, but it's not.

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Yeah, that's right.

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That's what you think.

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It's a control on the top of the thing that dispenses the pain medication we imagine.

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And then she goes to the 2nd one and he's saying, kill me.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. so dark.

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When I watched this in 2017, the 1st time, I watched it alone and my housemate Bex came home and Bex has, you know, a lot of interest in Doctor Who, even though she's not a fervent fan.

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And I replayed that scene and showed it to her and she, being a writer, just went, that's very good.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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But then that's when we see Razor, you know, like he turns up and just goes, T, you know, like at a kind of surprising and inappropriate moment.

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Do we twig that that's John Sims master at that point?

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I did not at all.

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I did not, but of course, in one of the great mysteries of modern Doctor Who, they had announced it months before, and no one can quite work out why they did it.

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And it was in the trailer. he was in the trailer. was sort of like, well, he's coming back.

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And so I went into this going, well, he hasn't appeared yet.

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And so I was wanting to see, like I was there going, who's he going to be?

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And Razor turned up.

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And it didn't twig.

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And it didn't tweak because it was one, the performance.

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And two, the prosthetic that he wears around his head actually changes the shape of his head.

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And that's the thing.

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He's not just a moustache.

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His round hair.

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Yes, he's around the head.

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Yes, it's a bit like in...

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If I just go off the track for a moment in Deep Space 9 where they have a character called Torra Ziel, and it's paid by one actress, Cy Battan, and then the 2nd actress, Tracy Middendorf, has the same prosthetic.

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Like, and so you don't realise that somebody different, like this is sort of in reverse until the performance starts.

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I have to say that I did twig and it was the smile.

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It was absolutely John Sims smile.

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Even though he has prosthetic teeth, I knew it was him.

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And then, of course, you can hear the voice, you know, it is sort of clearly him.

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I think I think that him in the sound of drums, he's not quite there yet.

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And I think there are some takes that perhaps needed some reconsideration where he doesn't quite get it.

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But here I think he's magnificent.

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And for both episodes I think he's really very good here.

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Yeah, he's amazing.

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And I think with Razor, I didn't take for a long time because then I forgot, like, at some point, tweak back into my head, oh, the master's supposed to be in this.

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And you know, when he's walking down the corridor and he's master of disguise or whatever.

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It's around that time that I went, oh, oh, you know, that's him.

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But I've watched a lot of YouTube reactors, right?

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And some of them have no idea.

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And so when that reveal happens at the end of the story, Like they're, these YouTube reactors expressions are just glorious.

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I think it just is a wonderful job.

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Just a wonderful. would have been an amazing revelation if we hadn't been primed to expect a surprise.

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He does extremely well. have a couple of thoughts on this.

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I think, I mean, one, I think the master is probably looking into the mirror and congratulating himself on the best makeup job since Khalid.

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Where's the green ooze?

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What about the portray?

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I mean, the poor tree is amazing.

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Don't for a moment, don't think it's Anthony Ainley, but...

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What's the other?

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Back to the glory days.

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But also I think, yes, the performance is better, I think, in this story.

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And I think the characterisation is better.

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And I think because John Simon is an excellent actor.

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There's something to be said for the thing that we always say that a master reflects their doctor.

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And so I think he's looked at this and said, I've got to lose some of the manic energy because that's not Peter Capaldi's doctor.

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It will look out of sync up against that.

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I know it's, I'm jumping ahead here to the next episode, but having both Michelle Gomez and Peter Poldi, they give a different energy, right?

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And so I certainly think in that episode, he's reflecting that energy as opposed to David Tennant's energy.

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But here it's him and Bill for most of it, and it's for so long.

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Like it's for 10 years or whatever it is.

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Like, you're thinking, like, if you think back to his master back in season three, like he played a long game for a year, but he could barely contain himself when things happened.

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Like, you know, 5 minutes of whatever, and then he'd have to reveal it.

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Here, he has to play a really long game.

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And I really like that.

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Also, more evidence, my theory that the master should always have a companion.

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Yeah.

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Yes, that works.

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I mean, my observation is that I think he is so much better in these 2 episodes because of the material, because of the director, because of the tone, the kind of the way the material is informing, the tone of the performance.

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And I think that's why the RTD end of the series 3 and then the end of time stuff is a completely different tone to this.

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And so it is Hamier.

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I don't think it's just the fact that he's acting against David Tennant.

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Because he's not, because actually he's barely acting against Peter Capaldi in either of these 2 episodes.

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He's mainly acting with either Bill or with the missy.

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Maybe not, but I think there is that element to it, like, you know.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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I'm just making the observation that I think that the direction, not just the director, racial tellalay, but the direction of the show, the artistic direction, that comes from the top of the team.

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And I think that's what he is feeding on and why we're getting such a better performance, as well as the fact that the dialogue is so much clever and all these lines about tea and all the...

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And it's a dark...

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Yeah.

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00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:49.200
Yeah.

210
00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:52.860
Yeah, and he's not asked to kind of do what you might call sort of silly or stupid things.

211
00:15:52.919 --> 00:16:06.179
Now, I didn't tweak, but I'm one of those people, like, and Brian says all the time, like, he'll see a trailer or a film, and he'll say that he's always waiting for certain shots to appear in the film and knows when they don't because sometimes, you know, they use a different edit or something.

212
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.519
It's like it just disappears from my mind.

213
00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:12.779
Like, yes, even though the last shot of the trailer from the previous week was John Sims saying, give us a kiss.

214
00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.279
I completely forget that when I'm then watching the episode, even though it's John Sim.

215
00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:33.419
So I have a theory about why the performance is so different, and I think one reason is that since John Sim appeared as the master, the rift between the classic series and the new series has to some degree been healed.

216
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:40.799
Mostly by Day of the Doctor, that's its explicit aim, and we've reclaimed the series.

217
00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:44.580
We're not reacting against the old series anymore.

218
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.279
We're seeing ourselves as continuing it.

219
00:16:47.340 --> 00:17:00.779
And so this master, John Sims master is not just the master who faced off against David Tennant, but he is the master.

220
00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:02.519
He has a goatee.

221
00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:04.319
He's much more saturnine.

222
00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:05.880
He's still horrible.

223
00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:11.519
Like he's still fabulously horrible, but he's here not just because of fan wank.

224
00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:22.500
It's not like the 2 doctors where we had such a lovely time with Pat Trouton that we invited him back a couple of years later. dangerous and dangerous ground, mentioning 2 doctors in fan wank, and the same sentence to me.

225
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:23.460
Oh, really?

226
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:24.359
It does have fun.

227
00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:26.400
You know, a lot of fan work, get it.

228
00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:45.599
But here the reason is that what we're doing is externalising and personifying, the whole thing that we've watched Missy do all season, which is wrestle with who she was, and try to decide whether she's going to continue to be the master or not.

229
00:17:45.660 --> 00:18:00.059
And so what we do is we bring back a traditional master, a traditional generic master to represent that idea and have her interactions with him, show us how she feels.

230
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:21.299
And I think, and there's more of this next week, but it obviously occurs at the end here. that that's incredibly well done, and that the fact that we spent all season not certain of whether she was bunging it on or not, whether it was a devious plan or not.

231
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:27.000
And you and I, Simon, over a few episodes this season have kind of had different takes on it.

232
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:35.279
Whereas I'm fairly certain that Michelle is playing it for real and you're wanting it to kind of be a ploy and it turns out it's both.

233
00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:41.099
Yeah, no, that's that's the way I'm feeling in those earlier episodes because you're not sure.

234
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:43.259
I think you're thinking I'm thinking it is a ploy.

235
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:49.259
But I think that the demonstration in these 2 episodes is it Israel and she's genuinely torn and conflict.

236
00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:50.339
Yeah, yeah. wants to do.

237
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:56.819
It builds to that. no bizarre flip-flopping. actually a really well-done, gentle progression of the character.

238
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.160
But just going back to sort of John Simmons, a sort of generic master.

239
00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:18.599
I think, yes, I think you're absolutely right that that's part of the reason this story works is because you have what could be a generic master, but I think that really undersells John Sims' ability and how he was, for, to my mind, and I know we differ on this, but to my mind, really misused and poorly served by those early years.

240
00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:20.039
Misdirected rather than miscast.

241
00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:23.460
Exactly. misdirected, miswritten for, mis scripted.

242
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:25.859
It just misfired for me.

243
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:27.720
That's just my view of the master.

244
00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:35.460
I mean, and I'm not entirely sure whether it takes until day of the doctor to for us to heal the rift between the original series and the new series.

245
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.799
I think we're already doing that during the David Tenant era.

246
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:50.640
I think as soon I think as soon as the series comes back, I think it's series one that they're doing that, because they're going, oh, no, we can't be associated with this silly program from the 20th century, and by the time they realise, when it's realised it's a huge success, then they lean into it.

247
00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:53.220
Otherwise, you wouldn't have every season stuff coming back.

248
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:59.759
And let's not forget that in Utopia, when the master is revealed, we've got sound bites from Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley.

249
00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:02.640
As soon as that sort of stuff starts happening, that's when the rifter has been healed.

250
00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:07.980
But we do reject a traditional master in that episode. we actually have.

251
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:14.039
Derek Jacoby saying if the doctor can be young and annoying, then I can as well.

252
00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:15.420
I can't remember what that line is.

253
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:16.500
It's something like that.

254
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:16.920
Yeah, yeah.

255
00:20:17.099 --> 00:20:18.299
If the doctor can be...

256
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:20.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

257
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:21.180
And that's how it went.

258
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:21.720
Do you know what I mean?

259
00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:23.940
It's just nothing to do with being young. has to do with how he's written.

260
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:38.519
Like, like I said, you want, you want, you know, the master works with, for me, Missy and Sasha Duan one as well, and certainly the Roger Delgado one because the master is always more sophisticated, more elegant, better dressed, more, do you know what I mean?

261
00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:45.180
Always the one that, you know, when you arrive, they're the ones who've already insinuated themselves into the hierarchy because they've, you know, wheedled their way in.

262
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:46.259
Seduced Galea.

263
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:48.779
Exactly. all that sort of stuff.

264
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:53.819
And that for me is, and I know that's kind of what the Johns does, too arguably, because he become as prime minister after all. you know what I mean?

265
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:59.220
Like it's just a treatment of the character. that's why I think John Simmons miserved in that earlier iteration of him.

266
00:20:59.279 --> 00:20:59.700
But anyway.

267
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.000
I mean, those words that you used about sort of better dressed and everything.

268
00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:08.339
It struck me during this episode that the version of the master that John Simm is channelling the most is Eric Roberts.

269
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:09.420
Oh, okay.

270
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:09.900
Really?

271
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:18.299
Eric Roberts has that same kind of urbanity, the same kind of delicious enjoyment of what he's doing. dressing for the occasion. dressing for the occasion.

272
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:18.960
Absolutely.

273
00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:22.200
And it meant that I got a new appreciation for Eric Roberts did in the role.

274
00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:31.920
Oh, I think Eric Roberts was great in the role, but, you know, there is, I think, partly because of that wonderful line and the amount of expression and purpose in it, of this is an ambulance.

275
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:36.960
You know what I mean?

276
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:42.240
That's the that for me, in that kind of line and that tone and frustration, that is the master.

277
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:44.220
It's the ultimate why am I surrounded by this?

278
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:47.519
Also, don't forget, oh Bruce, you're sick.

279
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:48.299
Thank you.

280
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:49.079
Yes, exactly.

281
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:56.039
And that's the kind of, that's, I think, um, so you can see a line between that Eric Roberts performance and the John Sim performance in series three.

282
00:21:56.099 --> 00:22:00.059
But then it just, for me, it's gone off the track.

283
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:01.799
It's gone off where I'd want to be.

284
00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:04.380
And I think they made a good decision in the writing.

285
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:11.519
You could easily have had John Simms master as an alias, say, the doctor performing the surgeries in the hospital.

286
00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:20.279
But they don't, they give him this weird and wacky character with an odd accent and someone who would never in a 1000000 years think that the master was disguising themselves as.

287
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:24.359
Yes, except we will find out next week that he was.

288
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:25.500
He was the king of the world.

289
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:26.819
He was the king of the world.

290
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.700
That wasn't that doctor in the conversion theatre.

291
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:30.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

292
00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:32.400
There was one behind it, was that the idea?

293
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.240
No, no.

294
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:38.400
So we learned that he took over that floor, ruled like a king.

295
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:44.819
Everyone rebelled against him, and then he had to go into hiding in disguise, just like at the end of time part.

296
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:47.940
Because that's the thing that happens to him all the time.

297
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.900
I think the one thing just before we finish with the master and John Simm.

298
00:22:51.960 --> 00:23:02.700
I think that, you see, the one regret that if it were a traditional four-part story, we've missed the opportunity for him to have an anagram is his name, credits of the 1st episode.

299
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:16.500
The absolute horror of Bill being shot through the chest.

300
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:23.039
Like, that moment is just one of the most horrific things that I've ever seen in Doctor Who at the time and even rewatching it.

301
00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:30.240
I'm just there going, oh my goodness, hey, looking through her chest, like you're just there going, how did they let this go out all that time?

302
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:31.920
All the unbelieving faces?

303
00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:37.019
Yeah, the extended dread of keeping the camera away from that for so long when you know what's happened.

304
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.539
Well, I think what's great is we get that.

305
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.559
And then we flash back to the plan.

306
00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:50.700
So we didn't need that scene because it was very clear what the plan was that had been explained to us.

307
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:56.579
But this is the doctor trying to convince Bill of the plan and really struggling.

308
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.740
I don't want to say we don't, didn't need it.

309
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:04.920
I think, yes, you're right, we didn't need it from a ruthless storytelling, but we do need it from an emotional point of view.

310
00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:05.400
Absolutely.

311
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:07.440
So cleverly done.

312
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:16.500
And so cleverly done that it's clearly over the course of days, if not weeks, because they're in different locations, picking up of the conversation, They're in different outfits, doing different things.

313
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:19.019
The thing he does all the time in this season.

314
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:19.799
Exactly.

315
00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:20.579
And I love it.

316
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:24.180
It's like going back to what one of the things that makes the pilot so...

317
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.160
Yeah, well, I totally agree with you.

318
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:39.180
Like just the conversations in the kitchen, you know, she scares me. you know, you won't get me killed, like it all just builds to that and having all of that in there, you just, they're going, you felt this bill and look where we're at.

319
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.279
Like, this is just awful.

320
00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:54.539
It actually manages somehow to make that big hole through her chest even worse because we flash back to her, anticipating it, being scared of it, trying to get the doctor to reassure her that it won't happen.

321
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.059
All of that sort of stuff and it happens anyway.

322
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.480
Although to be fair, she doesn't get shot through the chest because of something missy's done.

323
00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:02.880
You know, Missy doesn't need to be there for that to happen.

324
00:25:02.940 --> 00:25:03.539
No.

325
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:11.819
In fact, what I think is actually really brilliant about that scene, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention it, is that that guy's called George.

326
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.240
By the way, we had Darren in oxygen.

327
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:20.880
The blue people always have just English names that are spelled weirdly.

328
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.240
They all sound like ancillary characters from bewitched.

329
00:25:24.299 --> 00:25:25.140
Yeah, right.

330
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:33.960
He's terrified and he is going to shoot Bill and the doctor comes in and gives one of his check my CV speeches.

331
00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:43.079
You know, I am going to save you, you know, everyone on this ship in in just a little while and you'll look back and you'll go, you know.

332
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:44.519
Yeah, all of that sort of stuff.

333
00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:46.019
Like he's doing, he's absolute.

334
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:51.119
I'm a hero and I will undoubtedly save everyone and win the day because I'm the doctor and that's what I do.

335
00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:55.859
In a story where he just ends saying, actually this almost never works.

336
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:57.720
I've got nothing to do.

337
00:25:57.779 --> 00:25:59.220
I'm going to be dead soon.

338
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.539
I'm not going to be able to save anyone in any lasting way, but I still have to do it.

339
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:05.400
And I think that's incredible.

340
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:06.720
I think that's amazing.

341
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:15.480
Because Moffat, maybe more than anyone else has done the scene where he tells the Vashta Narada to just check some of the target books on the shelves.

342
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:24.660
Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah. which is actually the one part of one of the very few parts of his style of writing, which I dislike.

343
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:25.740
Yes, yeah.

344
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:27.240
But here he is critiquing it.

345
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:27.900
Yeah.

346
00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:30.000
I did think it missed a slight trick.

347
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:37.019
I really like what's on screen by not having missy step up and do that as part of her...

348
00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:42.960
Dr. Spiel as part of her Dr. Spiel, and failing and feeling the impact of that herself as part of her journey.

349
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:44.039
Yeah.

350
00:26:44.099 --> 00:26:52.920
Although I do think that given that the 2nd episode is called the Doctor Falls, we have to give him somewhere to fall from, and that's absolutely the place that he falls from.

351
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:56.700
And as both masters will points out, they were there when he's fallen before.

352
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:08.279
What do we think about that in relation to the bury your gays trope?

353
00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:16.619
Yeah, and there's also, well, there's also issues with, uh, you know, people have talked about issues with black people as well being shot.

354
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:17.339
Do you know what I mean?

355
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:21.119
It's our 1st black companion for a while and she gets shot in the chest and stuff.

356
00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:27.059
And like, I think Moffatt's careful to make someone blue do that rather than someone white.

357
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:31.079
Like, I think that that's actually deliberate and thought through.

358
00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:41.940
And I also think that one of the things that Moffat does is he's brutally cruel. to all of the companions, like all of them.

359
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:51.359
Amy, Clara, Rory, like all of them have horrific things happen to them, and so it happens to Bill as well.

360
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:58.140
And even though it's horrific, we're not left hanging for very long.

361
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:15.299
Like those people come in almost immediately and say we're going to repair her and we're not going to bring her back, we're only given just a few seconds to kind of, well, there's the flashback and we're kind of living with it for a few minutes, but basically after it happens, within seconds, we're being told she's being taken away to get fixed.

362
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.299
And it's not brutal or able to be dismissed.

363
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:21.359
Bill's not being shot because she's black or a lesbian.

364
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:25.980
It's because she's an amazing character and Motha wants to do terrible things to his amazing characters.

365
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:26.460
Yeah.

366
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:26.880
Yeah.

367
00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:29.039
Yes, I just character whom we love.

368
00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:30.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

369
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:34.079
I think that kind of thing, if it's referred to as bury your gaze kind of thing.

370
00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:37.440
I haven't heard that as the expression before, I think that's not a thing anymore.

371
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:39.240
I think that's something that used to happen.

372
00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:48.660
I mean, maybe I've been to enough films, like the gay and lesbian film festival, which end with the happy romance being torn apart because one of the gays is killed.

373
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:56.880
It is a real, it is a real thing which happens and which happened throughout film and TV where the gay characters were not allowed to have a happy ending.

374
00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:01.079
I don't think this satisfies that because I think Mothat's more than aware of that.

375
00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:02.339
But you know, it is a thing.

376
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.619
And he does give her a happy ending.

377
00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:05.400
He does.

378
00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:06.779
Exactly. with Stargirl.

379
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:07.559
Yeah, yeah.

380
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:08.940
Happy lesbian ending.

381
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.200
Exactly.

382
00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:23.880
But do you think it's convenient, like, the hole in the chest, like, sort of works with the whole chest plate thing. the fact that the people down below have time is going quicker, so, but their technology obviously links back to what's here.

383
00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:33.119
So the phaser has to make that particular hole in the chest as opposed to a general thing and then you have the horror of when she wakes up and she's going like that on the blade.

384
00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:34.259
And we all know.

385
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:38.400
There's that moment where she says, I haven't been game to look at it.

386
00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:41.880
You know, like Razor says, how's your new heart?

387
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:43.859
You know, it's very shiny. you can pull it off.

388
00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:46.079
It's pretty great.

389
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:48.779
I think it's it's perfect.

390
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:49.859
Do you know what I mean?

391
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:56.039
Because we've had the dialogue where the doctor has said it's your most important organ and you've only got one of them.

392
00:29:56.099 --> 00:29:58.019
There's no backup.

393
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:05.039
So he said that in order to kind of anticipate that, even though we only hear it after we've seen that.

394
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:10.140
I'd suggest that her lungs, stomach and large intestine have also been destroyed.

395
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:12.960
Yeah, I mean, apparently we could have seen that.

396
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:18.539
Fortunately, we don't have to think about it too much because it is very kind of insane.

397
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:20.579
It's the death becomes her special affair.

398
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:21.779
Yes, yes, yes.

399
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.660
You have to imagine that Simon pulling out the intestine, saying, these are full of chips.

400
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:31.619
I mean, but it even has sort of a glowy thing around it so there's no blood or brawl.

401
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.440
Yes, it's all men. yes The energy weapon.

402
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:36.539
The energy weapon has cauterised the word.

403
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:42.000
It's a similar kind of shock, as in 90s Star Trek, when they turn up the phases to maximum.

404
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.980
They just shoot people, they evaporate them.

405
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.440
Yeah, yeah, like they burn up into cinders.

406
00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:48.779
We don't have to clean up then.

407
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:49.740
Exactly.

408
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:51.420
No dust on the floor.

409
00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:15.900
Can I just talk about the sci fi element of the way the whole story can work, which is the black hole, and the fact that the gravity at the top of the shift means that time is moving much slower than the bottom of the ship.

410
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:37.559
It's so refreshing to have those kind of concepts, and I have no idea how correctly it's used, but it's so wonderful to have those kind of concepts coming back into the show and explained so well by both the razor at the bottom and the doctor at the top. don't you think Yeah, and Rachel Tallerlay and Stephen Moffat both sell it in incredibly well.

411
00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:46.319
We said that thing a few episodes ago about the fact in oxygen about the fact that the special effect shots have to be sympathetic to the storytelling to tell you where you are.

412
00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:55.440
Obviously, we are told we're at the top of the ship, the bottom ship, but that initial special effects shot where it's going through the ship and you're seeing each of the floors, it places everything into context.

413
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:59.160
And they're sideways because you can see that they're flawed. perfect storytelling.

414
00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:00.059
Yeah.

415
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:13.140
I mean, Russell was the one who kind of brought verticality to Doctor Who, which he does in the end of the world, but he does kind of over and over again by having us go up and down in what is a flat studio.

416
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:18.299
So adding an extra dimension to Doctor Who, which has historically been kind of flat.

417
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:20.700
And then here he does.

418
00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:21.539
Just underworld thing.

419
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.960
You just change, you just change the number on the panel.

420
00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:26.759
I think we've done that before.

421
00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:29.880
And so here.

422
00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:37.380
Basically, this 2 parter has a control room, a farm, and the hospital floor.

423
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:45.000
Like it has 3 places, but they're all linked together in this sort of weird space that's been created.

424
00:32:45.000 --> 00:33:05.640
And it's a space where time passes differently at one end from another, which enables Moffatt to do the thing which he does, which is making the flashbacks real and making the switching from one narrative thread to another real.

425
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:13.440
So I think we saw this in a Christmas carol, where everything happens in chronological order, but there are flashbacks.

426
00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:16.920
Like we flash back to Kasran Sardic's use.

427
00:33:16.980 --> 00:33:21.779
Even though there aren't any flashbacks in that story, they're all happening in real time.

428
00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:23.759
Tartis links them together.

429
00:33:23.819 --> 00:33:24.420
That's right.

430
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:28.200
So what he does is he uses time travel to get his narrative things to happen.

431
00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:28.859
Yeah.

432
00:33:28.859 --> 00:33:31.200
And when they're watching it on TV.

433
00:33:31.259 --> 00:33:40.019
I mean, the genius about it is that that environment, that hospital environment, which you pegged as kind of 1950s.

434
00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:40.859
Yes, it's the fold.

435
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.740
Yeah, and the style and just the look of it.

436
00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:47.279
Just that idea of sort of grim NHS hospitals.

437
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:53.700
Yeah, they're just sort of like limewashed hospital rooms and, you know...

438
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:54.359
Yes, exactly.

439
00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:55.619
Or the tiles on the wall.

440
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.640
Like, you know.

441
00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:03.480
I mean, that's kind of the world that the cider men came into in 1966.

442
00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:04.680
Exactly that world.

443
00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:14.460
And they're watching the screen, which is has visible lines on it and is in black and white and is visibly distorted.

444
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.219
That's what the experience of watching Doctor Who was like.

445
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:19.199
In fact, the screen's a bit larger.

446
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:21.000
Yes, but give them that.

447
00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:27.300
But essentially, we are watching the birth of the cyberman. you know what I mean?

448
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.159
and we're having...

449
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:30.179
And the reception's a bit crappy.

450
00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:38.880
But the birth of the cybermen takes place in an environment, in the same environment into which the cybermen were actually born in 1966.

451
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:41.699
And I think that's absolutely brilliant.

452
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.420
And it also explains the different environments, doesn't it?

453
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:55.980
Because time has been passing so quickly downstairs, everything is falling to pieces because even though it was a brand new spaceship, it's not brand new at the end at the bottom end anymore.

454
00:34:56.039 --> 00:35:00.900
No, it's, it's, and it's had all the fumes of the rocket, uh, go into it and so on.

455
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:04.860
I think there's kind of an urban class thing that he is drawing there.

456
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:12.360
He's not leaning to it very much, but it is that, you know, people basically living in, in a city environment's being choked by fumes and smog, et cetera, et cetera.

457
00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:21.179
But what struck me is that even though it's a very different story from spare parts, the big finish audio that does the origin of the Sidemen, the setting is the same.

458
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:27.960
Yeah, it's sort of a grim, dark, stone industrial world with a steel sky above it.

459
00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:32.340
But spare parts is kind of set in England in the 1950s as well.

460
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:33.480
Right, right.

461
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:40.139
You know, that it has that very mid-20th century kind of post-world war 2 just come off rationing.

462
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. like scarcity and stuff.

463
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:50.760
And there's a kind of, I mean, there is a kind of mid-20th century English socialism kind of feel to what's going on in spare parts as well.

464
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:54.539
And that's what he's grabbed here.

465
00:35:54.599 --> 00:36:03.119
I mean, I think I think this has a fair claim to being the best Cyberman story, and that's not a hugely difficult feat, to be fair.

466
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:08.519
There's an invasion, which is not really a sign that story.

467
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:09.840
To be honest.

468
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:10.679
But, um...

469
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:12.420
Cyberman stories usually aren't quite silent.

470
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:13.380
To have Cyberman.

471
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:22.380
And it's the best telling of the genesis of the Cyberman, I think.

472
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:36.179
What I love is the fact that you can just put this into the history of Doctor Who, like, you know, you can see that Mondas, you know, they've had to send this ship out because they're all dying and this is one way to try and get help or whatever they're doing. their version of the ark.

473
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:36.719
Yes.

474
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:37.800
Basically, yes.

475
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:44.340
And, you know, they obviously end up in the 10th planet, but here, they're evolving on their planet into cybermen.

476
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:52.320
Here, they're evolving as well, down below, and you go outside into that 50s horror, and it's so well realised.

477
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:54.059
Like, it really is.

478
00:36:54.119 --> 00:37:02.460
And I hadn't really picked up on it before, even like, you know, I think it's above the theatre where it says like the time at the top of the ship under the bottom of the ship.

479
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.960
And I hadn't picked that up before.

480
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:19.019
Like, you know, and just having all of this natural evolution that there's still evolving in 2 different places and it's still heading to the same point, you know, it just enthrals me and draws me in.

481
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:34.139
The thing I love that, the doctor's line, maybe it's the next episode where he says that wherever humans are, Sargeman will inevitably be born, which is kind of a great fudge of we've had many different Genesis of the Sidemen stories.

482
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:37.500
I haven't actually listened to spare parts and I keep saying I really, really should.

483
00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:38.519
So I can't compare it.

484
00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:40.559
It is one of the best.

485
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:44.579
So how does it treat the rationale for why they're turning themselves into cybermen?

486
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:48.659
Well, because Mondas is travelling through interstellar space.

487
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:49.260
Yes.

488
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:56.460
And so the atmosphere is frozen and they're all living below and they're just getting sick. getting sicker.

489
00:37:56.519 --> 00:38:00.059
Yeah, and Jenna from Bleak 7 is turning them into Cybermen.

490
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:00.840
Oh, is she?

491
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:01.679
Good on her.

492
00:38:01.739 --> 00:38:03.360
Docman Allen, yeah.

493
00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:05.519
If I can, you know, I love this episode.

494
00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:06.300
Okay.

495
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:18.119
And I love the 2 parts together, but watching them again, I thought this at the time when they were on, but watching them again, it just takes a few directional choices, which I think, wow, it could have been so much better if it had done something else.

496
00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:36.179
The downside, I feel, with this episode is, and I love having the genesis of the sidemen, because they're all sick and they're all ill and this needs to happen, which is not what you get in the series 2, the genesis of the time, which is, for me, very, very trite and lightweight by comparison.

497
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:36.840
Yes.

498
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:39.000
In this, there's a reason.

499
00:38:39.059 --> 00:38:40.559
Yes, people are sick.

500
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:42.480
They are dying, they need replacement.

501
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:52.559
What I think is unfortunate is that there is nothing in the role of the doctor and the nurse that is in any way sympathetic or in any way conflicted by what they're doing.

502
00:38:52.619 --> 00:39:00.239
What you want is, rather than, you know, the doctor, the surgeon doing the surgery is effectively a kind of effectively moustache twirling.

503
00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:05.280
He's comically evil in a way which does not, for me, suit the tone of the rest of the episode.

504
00:39:05.340 --> 00:39:11.039
Likewise, the nurse, the, the, you know, the big fat, chubby, nurse, ratchet kind of figure.

505
00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:19.320
It's kind of, again, a very cardboard, unfortunate choice for a story and episode which is in every other way, not cardboard.

506
00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:22.559
Oh, no, I think they are both marvellously well cast.

507
00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:24.179
But imagine the story.

508
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:25.199
Imagine the story.

509
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:34.139
And this only works if what we have as the 1st part is actually the whole story because in that thing that happens sort of after series six.

510
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:36.000
You don't really get 2 part stories.

511
00:39:36.059 --> 00:39:39.900
You get an episode followed by another episode which cliffhangers into.

512
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:40.619
You know what I mean?

513
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:44.940
So the next episode is effectively a different story. which is like the sequel.

514
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:57.300
And one of the things we lack in the modern era is we get so rarely is the ancillary character, the supporting cast member who you really empathise with, who you really are barracking for and you're incredibly involved with.

515
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:04.440
Now, if you make the surgeon and the nurse more three-dimensional and say that look, we have no choice.

516
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:07.800
We have to do this for you because if we don't, you will die.

517
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:09.840
Rather than, wow, your time has come.

518
00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:11.039
We're going to turn you into silent.

519
00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:14.219
And that's just like, oh, we've we've ran our reversion to that trope.

520
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:24.000
Well, I mean, I think, though, that the environment that Bill finds herself in is hyper real and like it's not a space environment.

521
00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:31.199
It is 1950s hospital, even though it's people from another planet and all of that sort of thing.

522
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:36.420
And it's the thing that Doctor Who does now and probably didn't really much do in the classic era.

523
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:46.139
And they are, I think, part of the horror, the nurse who comes and turns the volume down on everyone. and the surgeon.

524
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:51.179
There's so much of the horror is that horrible surgery.

525
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:52.800
It's not a space surgery.

526
00:40:52.860 --> 00:40:55.380
It's not like the Biow Foundation.

527
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:57.960
Like all the medical...

528
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:03.420
The gleaming futuristic medical technology on board.

529
00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:06.300
Flashing light, flashing lights, computer screens with gold.

530
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:09.719
I would have loved to see him come and turn the volume down on the nucleus.

531
00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:14.880
But my point is still that, yes, no, I do get all that.

532
00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:21.659
I understand all that, but I think my point is no one's going to willingly, willingly turn themselves into assignment.

533
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:22.440
You're only going to do that.

534
00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:27.360
You know, it's not like you say, oh, I think I'll go out today and get an artificial heart installed.

535
00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:31.260
You only do that is because you've got heart disease and you need to have that done.

536
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:40.199
But where I think it does get it right is then when the assertion says, oh, but you know, I know it's painful, but we've developed this thing now that will mean that you won't.

537
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:43.739
Or at least you won't care. which is terribly gruesome.

538
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:44.880
But again, it's that thing.

539
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.920
So for me, the evolution, that early evolution, the sidement, is because, 0 my god, we're disease, we're dying.

540
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:51.420
We need to replace bits of our body.

541
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:52.559
Oh my god, this hurts.

542
00:41:52.619 --> 00:41:53.219
What can we do?

543
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:55.679
Oh, we can. can give you this to make it better.

544
00:41:55.739 --> 00:42:00.780
Oh my god, we've now got to replace this and that's actually making me go crazy because I just can't deal with it anymore.

545
00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:05.820
Okay, well, the only solution to that is to take your emotions away because otherwise you'll just go crazy.

546
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:06.960
And do you know what I mean?

547
00:42:07.019 --> 00:42:20.340
Like, for me, that's the kind of, I really wanted to see that as an evolutionary development rather than, and was doing that so well, until then suddenly at the end, it just said, oh, well, we haven't got time to do the rest, so we'll just go straight to the thing.

548
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:22.320
So I imagine what it would have been like at the 2nd episode.

549
00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:23.519
I do broadly agree with you.

550
00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:24.239
That would have been nice.

551
00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:30.719
I also think there's quite a nice thing in making the doctor and the nurse a little bit faceless. so they're just part of the horror.

552
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:32.039
I do agree with that.

553
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:41.699
I also think that that line, which takes the place a lot of that kind of story evolution, where the doctor in the hospital says to Bill in a surprisingly chip away.

554
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:43.860
Oh yes, we've got something for that now.

555
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:48.420
It won't make you stop feeling pain, but it will make you stop caring about it.

556
00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:51.000
It's just an absolutely chilling line.

557
00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:52.199
It is a chilling line.

558
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:53.760
And he is jolly.

559
00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:54.659
Do you know what I mean?

560
00:42:54.719 --> 00:43:04.559
Like, he is a sort of like a jolly white professional guy with a posh voice who I think, you know, like seems to be trying to kind of jolly her along.

561
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:08.219
Like he's not like he is super evil and stuff like that.

562
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:12.300
But, like, I think what has happened is that we've reached the point already.

563
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:20.760
Like we don't quite arrive early enough for any of that because we're now at the point where the cybermen are making other people into cybermen.

564
00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:24.480
We send Cyberman up the lift in order to harvest people.

565
00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:25.320
Yeah.

566
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.760
They're walking wounded.

567
00:43:26.820 --> 00:43:28.380
They've got bits of themselves.

568
00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:29.340
No, she's the first one.

569
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:31.559
I mean, she's the 1st full cyberman.

570
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:34.380
The Bill Potts that we see is the 1st person.

571
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:38.099
It's the 1st time we see a full cyberman outfit.

572
00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:40.380
And it's her.

573
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:45.119
So she gets to be the 1st cyberman of this iteration of cyberman.

574
00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:47.159
Why wasn't she voiced by David Banks?

575
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.179
Well, she was still voiced by Nick Briggs. for God's sake.

576
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:52.920
I mean, what do you want?

577
00:43:52.980 --> 00:43:55.440
But, I don't know, variety.

578
00:43:56.880 --> 00:44:17.579
And one of the things, too, that I don't think, I mean, we haven't mentioned, but is obviously front of mind for everyone is the incredible formal constraint, again, that where Moffatt sets himself a challenge and the challenge is make the ridiculous cyberman, the ridiculous cyberman.

579
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:18.239
We think they're great.

580
00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:22.139
I do anyway, and I know you do too, Pete, at the side. in the 10th planet.

581
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.320
Can they be made to work on telly in 2017?

582
00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:30.780
And it turns out that they can be made to work even better on telly in 2017.

583
00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:33.480
And that's amazing, I think.

584
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:40.679
The one disappointment is that they reverts to the kind of the age of steel style stomping stomping like the sound when she...

585
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:41.099
Yeah, yeah.

586
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:53.940
I think that's unfortunate because, and this is where I think, again, you know, that that 2006 iteration of the cyberman gets it so wrong and then it continues to be wrong from then on, apart from this, is that the cyberman are not steel, they're not metal, they're plastic.

587
00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:00.719
The whole point is it's about the replacement of body parts, which are going to be malleable, are going to be flexible.

588
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:02.280
It's not a suit of armour.

589
00:45:02.340 --> 00:45:12.480
And that's one of the reasons why the, I think the 10th planet sidemen work so well is because I know that they're put together in 1966 on the smell of an oly rag with bits of ping-pong walls or whatever the hell it is and so on.

590
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:18.179
But in some respects, that sells the concept of them so well because these people are desperate.

591
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.639
They've had to use anything to replace bits of their body.

592
00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:29.579
And I think the slight refreshing of that look for this episode, um, while still keeping the fact that, right, they've got a stocking on their head because basically that's artificial skin.

593
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:34.619
They've put like this kind of hash on them. like burn exactly like burns victims.

594
00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:35.820
They've got artificial eyes.

595
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:42.420
There is still a body inside that is able to open their mouth and the artificial sound comes out of their open mouth.

596
00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:46.139
They actually, you know, they're not articulating it, but it's coming out because there is a computer.

597
00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:48.840
Well, we see it because they've got the computer that they press the button on.

598
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.380
Exactly.

599
00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:50.760
They're pressing the button on.

600
00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:51.599
The fact that they've got these.

601
00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:54.840
I mean, in 1966, they're just the artist's hands.

602
00:45:54.900 --> 00:46:03.599
But we've kind of slightly updated that to have like effectively fairly grotty latex gloves that don't even fitting quite properly over their thing as artificial skin.

603
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:08.340
I think the reason for that is so that you don't have Bill's hands.

604
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.420
Do you know what I mean?

605
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:11.820
with her manicured fingernails and things.

606
00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:14.519
Well, I assume.

607
00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:17.400
I mean, is it is it the actress in the Sidemen scene?

608
00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:19.320
Oh, no, because it's taller.

609
00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:19.980
Exactly.

610
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:21.960
But that's that's also Y too.

611
00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:27.599
But also, I think it's actually pretty horrific because it's not, it's not, you know, as going back to that thing you were saying.

612
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:32.400
It's not kind of like a super spacy thing with people in tunics and everything like that and white walls and...

613
00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:34.800
And it's not it's not cricket glove spray paint.

614
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.260
No, that's getting wet to the past, yeah.

615
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:42.659
There's no getting away from the fact that it makes the sidemen infinitely more interesting in concepts and to look at.

616
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.239
They're not just silver monsters walking around.

617
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:50.159
They're back to being the walking wounded who have this awful uncanny valley look to them.

618
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:50.760
Yes.

619
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:54.420
And the show threw that away pretty quickly in the classic series.

620
00:46:54.539 --> 00:46:56.460
And, you know, 4 stories.

621
00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:06.840
Yeah, although they've still got the idea, and even through to like the 80s side, and you've still got kind of a flexible metal, you know, obviously it's just spray painted silver, but you know what I mean?

622
00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:13.800
Rather than what you get in the naughties and teens, which is where you get effectively like the suit of armour with just the knee joints and the elbow joints.

623
00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:19.079
Yeah, I mean, the reason that we have the suit of armour is because it's protecting them against their emotions.

624
00:47:19.139 --> 00:47:20.039
Yeah, I know.

625
00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:20.639
It's fine.

626
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:22.800
I get that idea.

627
00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:23.699
No, right?

628
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:25.980
That's not, you know, yeah, no.

629
00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:34.500
It's, it's, it's the whole point is that they are replaced replacements to their boys, and I think that is much better communicated in something that looks like a 10th planet site.

630
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:38.639
Yeah, I agree. does with what they become, which is basically effectively just androids.

631
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:41.460
We could talk about the voice all day long.

632
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.179
Yeah.

633
00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:47.519
But I remember Roy Skelton in one of the DVD extras back in the day, talking about doing the voice.

634
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:53.460
And I think the way the voice worked really well back then, even though it's a bit when you 1st hear it, you go, what are they doing?

635
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:58.500
But then you kind of lean into it, and I think that they do it a little bit, but they could do it more now.

636
00:47:58.559 --> 00:47:59.099
Yes.

637
00:47:59.099 --> 00:48:03.059
They could have done it more for this, is the fact that it is like, you know, you're pressing a keyboard.

638
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:07.920
It is Stephen Hawkings in terms of, you know, you've typed the thing out on your pad.

639
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:15.239
And the computer is just reading it out in a very random way because it is taking time on some of the way. you know what I mean?

640
00:48:15.300 --> 00:48:21.539
And that's the kind of thing that I think they got so right in 66 and I think it actually could have been lent into a little bit more in this.

641
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.780
Maybe it would affect people out too much because it would, it's very freaky.

642
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.599
They do it in spare parts and it works incredibly.

643
00:48:27.659 --> 00:48:29.699
Right, in fact, Simon, that was so good. trying to say.

644
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:30.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

645
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:32.039
Crowl or Tara.

646
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:33.119
Yes, yes, yes.

647
00:48:33.179 --> 00:48:45.900
And the fact that those 1st cybermen have names, because they are still, they were people, whereas this whole thing, and this episode, unfortunately, leans into it a little bit too, that we get, you know, all they're doing is they're mass producing cybermen.

648
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:50.159
It loses the concept of them being having having been at some point individuals.

649
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:57.780
Okay, we get one or 2 of them being individuals, but it's just, I think the beauty of the original cybern still struggles to be seen sometimes.

650
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:10.860
And there's also something to be said for context because we learned from something quite modern under that if you want to bring the brigadier back, it doesn't work to bring back a character and strip them of all of their context and plug them into kind of a multicoloured 80 story.

651
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:15.420
The sidemen here, the 10 planet sidemen work because of the grim backdrop.

652
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:16.320
They fit in.

653
00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:18.420
The aesthetic is all correct.

654
00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:20.880
All I can say is this.

655
00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:22.739
A Mondacian cyberman?

656
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.719
A Chalosian cyber?

657
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:25.019
Yes.

658
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:26.579
Of Organian cyber?

659
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:28.860
An attack of the Cyberman.

660
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.380
Attack the cyberman cyberman.

661
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:33.599
Sorry, I've been waiting to say that.

662
00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:43.800
Really interesting discussion there, Simon.

663
00:49:43.860 --> 00:49:58.260
Like, your perspective on that whole backstory, and obviously for time, we couldn't do it for the actual feeling that they were going for it, and certainly I think that it could have been, we didn't see it because it's already happened, and you know, all those people lining up outside.

664
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:04.920
They've just, you know, they know they have to go through that process, but you've made a lot of good points, but I don't think it attracts on the episode happening like that at all.

665
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:07.800
I understand what you're saying.

666
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.440
Yeah, that's why I was saying it. it's only a 9.8 out of 10.

667
00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:12.599
It's 120 out of 10.

668
00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:27.599
One of my favourite moments from the series 2 cybermen's stories is all of the population of London, just marching into Battersea Power Station, to be, yeah, to be sawn up and turned into cybermen.

669
00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:28.679
But that's why it's just dicky.

670
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:29.219
Do you know what I mean?

671
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.300
I know that's kind of awesome.

672
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:32.820
But this, do you know what I mean?

673
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:41.699
Like that site of, and there's more of it next week, I think, where there's more fire and stuff in the sky and it looks more terrifying.

674
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:48.719
And it just turns into this sort of, you know, Hieronymus Bosch sort of hellscape in which everyone's turning into a cyberman.

675
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:49.800
And that's my point.

676
00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:54.960
At the risk of harping on your acid, I don't want to see people being marched into Battersea Power Station.

677
00:50:55.019 --> 00:51:00.719
I want to see people limping of their own accord into Battersea Power Station because they have no choice.

678
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:02.760
I mean, that kind of is what you get here.

679
00:51:02.820 --> 00:51:03.539
Exactly.

680
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:05.519
And that's what you get here a bit more.

681
00:51:05.579 --> 00:51:16.380
You get, they're being led. being kind of chaperoned by the partly converted cybermen, but they've kind of realised they're all outside, they're sick, they're dying, and they're holding off as long as they can.

682
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.260
And then a day, they wake up one day and go, stuff it.

683
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:20.159
I have to do this.

684
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:24.360
Let around by impassive Nurse Ratchet, who probably thinks she's doing them a favour.

685
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:54.179
The horror of everything building towards the end of the episode and the end of the episode, like the reveal that this is Bill, at the same time as Missy and the master, you know, reveal, and then for Nardo and the doctor to be standing there and Missy comes in, you met the ex.

686
00:51:54.420 --> 00:51:59.579
Yeah, and the look on Peter's face is just sublime.

687
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:02.460
But then the whole buildup too.

688
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:02.940
I waited.

689
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:08.699
I waited for you, which the doctor placed in her mind as she was led away at the beginning of the episode.

690
00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:14.159
And then that whole, the camera shot into the eye socket and the tear and all that.

691
00:52:14.219 --> 00:52:18.780
Like, it's just, it's really one of the darkest things Doctor Who's ever done, I think.

692
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:20.099
Gruesome.

693
00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:31.019
And I think too, Russell made the right decision to say the sidemen could look like anything, but they must have the teardrop. which 1st appears in...

694
00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:34.139
The invasion, I think, where...

695
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:39.179
And the teardrop is clearly just there so that the actors can see out of the mask, right?

696
00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:42.179
Like, that's why the teardrops there are.

697
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:46.679
You'll find that the teardrops are in the wheel in space because the actors inside are going, what am I doing in this rubbish?

698
00:52:47.460 --> 00:53:01.920
And so that becomes a thing because for Russell, the horror of the sidemen is that they have had something done to them that's so horrible that they have to have their emotions wiped or controlled or suppressed.

699
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:04.800
And so they have that teardrop representing it.

700
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:12.960
And here you have the cybermen, the original cybermen that don't have the teardrop, but the teardrop comes back for that final shot.

701
00:53:13.019 --> 00:53:23.579
So the teardrop comes out of the eye, in the spot where it appears in the other cyberman, and, of course, it prefigures how Bill gets out of all of this as well.

702
00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:27.539
This is so clever and dark and well written and well made.

703
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:28.679
We didn't know what we had.

704
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:30.840
Yeah, so it's like this, we're going up.

705
00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:33.599
It is, if I could just summarise that, it is clever.

706
00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:40.380
It is elegant and it is beautifully put together and I think those 3 things only happen.

707
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:42.059
They don't happen every week.

708
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:45.000
And sometimes you get 2 of the three.

709
00:53:45.059 --> 00:53:47.820
But I think absolute thing.

710
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:56.519
And just because I'm not on the next episode, I just think it does go, it becomes a different story, which is fine, which is also very good and interesting and wonderful in exploring something else.

711
00:53:56.579 --> 00:53:58.139
I wish it hadn't.

712
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:02.039
I wish we'd have had kind of like a 90 minutes of the genesis of the cyberman.

713
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:28.260
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.

714
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:32.820
We'll be back next week to stand with the doctor in the doctor falls.

715
00:54:34.019 --> 00:54:52.079
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500-year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

716
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:58.860
Until next time, though we cannot make our son stand still, yet we will make him run.

717
00:54:58.980 --> 00:55:01.679
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

718
00:55:01.739 --> 00:55:03.119
See you soon.

719
00:55:03.179 --> 00:55:03.900
Good night.

720
00:55:03.960 --> 00:55:04.739
Bye for now.

721
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:18.239
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, and Simon Moore, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

722
00:55:18.300 --> 00:55:24.780
This episode, Check My CV, was recorded on the 3rd of November 2024 and released on the 24th of November.

723
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:33.780
Of course, if we'd had gravitational time dilation back in the 1980s, Terror of the Vervoids would have been 283 episodes long.

724
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:36.179
But I think that that might have been quite a good thing.

725
00:55:45.539 --> 00:55:55.559
But I absolutely am carried through that next episode by John Sim and...

726
00:55:55.619 --> 00:55:57.900
I'm absolutely carried through by John Simmons, Michelle Gomez.

727
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:08.820
I think their scenes together are absolutely spectacular and some of the best two-handed scenes in the program and particularly the scene where their Capaldi is arguing with them about, you know, this is this is what this is how it works.

728
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:09.420
This is what I do.

729
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:16.800
And, you know, Michelle, you know, Missy then saying, isn't this what we always wanted to John Sims master?

730
00:56:16.860 --> 00:56:23.579
And I just think it wraps up the whole missy 3 years of missy, basically. so beautifully.

731
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:26.400
Well, Simon, now we've got nothing to talk about next episode.

732
00:56:27.059 --> 00:56:28.860
We can cut all that.

733
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:30.119
Exactly.

734
00:56:30.179 --> 00:56:31.800
Go the tag of next week's episode.

735
00:56:31.860 --> 00:56:35.519
I can come down in one of your heart little bubbles.

736
00:56:35.579 --> 00:56:38.400
They inspired a long time ago.