Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight of Entirety, the
only Doctor Who podcast that's just inevitable, like sewage and
smartphones and Donald Trump.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Todd.
I'm Peter.
Well, with Bill gone and the Cyberman inevitable, there's only one
thing left for the doctor to do because who he is, is where he
stands, is where he falls.
So let's see what happens when the doctor falls.
Last week started in this sort of odd way with a flash forward to
the end of this episode.
So, this whole two parter is circular, but we pull a lot of sort
of timey, whimey stuff at the beginning here with an actual
flashback, which I don't think we had last week.
So it's all a bit complicated, isn't it?
I forget, Nathan.
Circular logic will only make you dizzy.
Who says that?
Perry.
Oh my god.
So I guess what we get is something that lets us lead into the
opening credits with that incredible visual of the doctor being
held by a Mondassian cyberman.
But when we get back into it, I think what ends up happening is a
thing that sometimes happens, but not often enough where we
actually escalate from the cliffhanger and things start to get
worse.
So we go back to the rooftop and where has it looked like Missy
had turned evil?
I think it's pretty clearly established for at least the 1st few
minutes that that's continuing, that that's a thing that's
happened.
And that's kind of what we lean into.
Absolutely.
And having the doctor at the mercy of 2 masters is delicious
because he's not only got one master there going, ha ha, doctor
you know, going to kill you now, he's got 2 of them describing the
many ways in which they could possibly kill him and some of the
ways in which they already have.
Well, the best one is where Missy says, I know you've already
fallen.
And I do like her line, have you ever felt the blade, which
anticipates what's going to happen to John Sims master at the end
of the episode.
But, you know, there's not like granddad's back and, you know, and
then and they cured her little condition, your little condition
like, you know, with Bill.
But, you know, you do have to give it to like everyone knows your
stupid round face. so good We never knew until this scene.
We never knew that we needed a multimaster story, but we
absolutely did.
It's just gold plated.
Well, because it's Missy's reaction to the stupid round face crack
where she goes, yeah, a little bit.
Like she kind of agrees with the doctor.
Which is probably the clue.
That's not all evil.
Doctor's dead.
Yeah.
He told me he always hated you.
Twice.
Oh that is so brilliant.
That is so awesome isn't it?
But you know, we're in this horrific situation with, you know, and
it's comedy gold.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what we laugh.
I will say there's one bit, looks a bit crap, is the flashback
within the flashback where the doctor's doing the keyboard stuff.
Yeah. and, you know, changing the algorithm. they're going
really?
I'm not convinced.
That's counterpointed by those lovely shots of Nadal running away
when things are going south with the 2 masters.
And it really does wrong foot you.
You think what's happening?
He goes, is Ardol no longer part of this is, is, and then he
obviously comes to race for shuttle.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's actually really brilliant because we always say
that Moffatt wants to start the episode in a different place from
where he left it, but he does actually want to tell the story of
what happened after the 2 masters turned up and met the doctor.
And so it's done in this sort of German expressionism kind of way
with all the sort of black and white.
Yes. with all the black and white and all of that sort of thing.
And then we also get that sort of revision where you see that he's
had the chance to change the algorithm.
But all of that stuff and particularly the stuff where the 2
masters get on board the shuttle and both say the exact same.
And the thing is that it's so stupidly petty.
Like it's the most fabulously petty thing.
Like the doctor just wants to be cruel in the most kind of
miserably childish way, he said to tell me that he'd always hated
you and that they both do it.
It's magic.
It's so good.
But it's just so wonderful, that whole rooftop sequence, and then
having Bill there, and then the cyberman, you know, coming up, and
I guess the one thing for this episode is, I would have just loved
to have had the Mondasian cyberman, or an evolution which we went
to like the Tolosian cyberman, rather than the cyberman that we
know now. like I would have liked to have just had a progression
but let's just keep it classic.
I think that very much the reason for it is what costumes do we
have lying around?
Yeah.
Andrew Beach or whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that is it.
I think it's sort of a matter of with asylum of the Daleks, there's
a reason there's only one sort of dead planet Dalek or Dalek
invasion of Earth Dalek, whereas for this, it's kind of like, okay
yes, we, you know, we can get a fan in who has a really good
invasion costume or a really good. tomb of the side men costume
but it's like, okay, do we duplicate that 20 times or do we have
to get one made?
We can't get 2 identical ones.
I mean, that was it was something I was disappointed with at the
time.
I did think when the doctor started talking about, oh, you know
they've evolved an attack one.
I'm like, oh, come on, come on, let's get David Banks in.
You know, he would still fit in the suit.
Let's get David Banks and Mark Hardy. you know.
Yeah, let's get Michael Kilgariff.
He wants to arrive.
Excellent.
Moffat loves this structure for a two-part story, doesn't he?
Where you set the scene somewhere and then you go off on a
tangent.
And it's been sometimes less successful, sometimes more.
I don't necessarily think the Big Bang is successful as a 2nd part
to that story where something like flesh and stone is very much
for time of angels.
Here, you do have quite a lot of overlap with the 1st episode
which is good.
But he does a thing, which astonishingly, considering how good
world enough, and time is, this is the better episode, and I'm
absolutely astonished that he managed to do that.
The change of atmosphere is really striking.
And basically everything turns, you're suddenly not indoors, gray
black, smoke, you're outdoors, it's kind of bucolic, and it really
works.
Like in that 1st episode, which we're talking last week where
everything was cutting between 2 things.
Here, the cutting after this flashback sequence is between Bill
and Cyber Bill, you know?
And I just think that is just so clever and well realised, like
the sequences and just how heartbreaking it is for real Bill.
Like I just love all that.
I mean, you couldn't do an episode with just a Modacian Bill
Cyberman.
You've got to have Pearl there.
But it just underscores the heartbreak and just where everything
is heading.
So, so what we do is we introduce floor 507. in the opening
credits and we see, you know, the Cyberman expedition that went up
from floor 1058 and then got trapped in 507 and now they're all
the scarecrows and stuff and it turns out that it seems to be a
thing that's happening all the time.
All of that's introduced.
We get to meet Arlett, the little girl, who's going to be sort of
super important to the story.
And then we see that image.
And then the next time we go back there after the opening credits
it's 2 weeks later.
And so when we see Bill come to in the barn, do we think she's
been fixed?
I think we do.
I did.
I don't know if I did, but I kind of went, oh, what's going on?
Like, I just questioned it.
And I thought, oh, and then there's just the horrible realisation
that she's not fixed.
And obviously with the mirror coming in and the shadows and all
that, like it just, no, I did I did realise.
I remember the 1st time I was watching it and instantly I had the
sense of dread that we were going to have this long goodbye to
Bill where we could still see her and it's like looking at a
photograph of a loved one who's passed away.
She's still there and we can see her, but it's just an echo.
It's very well done because we get, so we get the character of
Hasran, who's played by Samantha Spiro, who we know.
She's brilliant.
So she's in sex education, uh, and she's in psycho beaches as
well.
She's really funny.
She's terribly...
I hear that psycho bitches can give you a second.
She's terribly been there myself.
She's she's terribly good.
She is brilliant.
One of the absolute highlights.
And unlike last week, we have a sort of small guest cast, whereas
there's virtually no guest cast apart from John Simm last week's
episode, but it's her reaction to Bill that's off, you know, that
she's nervous around her and refuses to approach her and she's
being kind, but she says the stuff about how you can't be around
the children and something.
So something is wrong.
And I think that Moffatt just pulls out what he did with Oswin.
So, yeah.
Oswin doesn't realise she's a Dalek and she doesn't realise
because she's strong and she's created.
I think the doctor says that Beale has created, you've created a
castle made out of you and you're on the battlements, kind of
defending yourself against the realisation of who you are.
And I think, you know, you have to do that for the reason that you
identified Todd, which is you have to have Bill in the story.
Yes, and also, I think Peter hit the nail on the head when he said
dread.
That is such, it just sums up the whole feeling.
But also when, you know, the doctor's telling her or questioning
her like, what do you remember 10 years?
like 10 years she was down there.
And of course, it goes back to the previous sequence where they
say, you missed it by 2 hours.
Yeah, yeah.
You just kind of, it's just heartbreaking screws, isn't it?
It's just, yeah.
It's not clear that it's 10 years, is it last week?
It doesn't seem to be 10 years.
We have the numbers, but the numbers don't kind of add up to 10
years, but now it's 10 years.
And we did spend last week going, can you stop doing the
exposition doctor and just go down there?
Do you know what I mean?
It was held by the fact that Bill didn't seem to be super
distressed necessarily.
Like she didn't seem to be having a brutally miserable time, but
she was still waiting. rationalist.
Yeah that's right.
Bad tea.
In the in the initial draft, the doctor had missed her by 2
years.
She'd been a cyberman for 2 years.
I think the 2 hours thing is much better because A, there's pathos
to it and B, it means it's more feasible that her personality is
still there.
I remember on initial broadcast, the week between the 2 episodes.
I was thinking to myself, okay, Cyberman in the classic series is
a human encased inside a Cyberman with surgical alterations and
chemicals like we see in Attack of the Cyberman, but then Missy
just smashes our hopes like a sandcastle saying, oh, yeah, she's
been pulped and filleted and shredded just like the cyber cybermen
and it's like, oh, oh, dear.
And that's why she's 7 foot tall.
But Bill herself only hears about it the 1st time where the doctor
says the cybermen go to convert young people, children because
their brains are fresh and there's less to throw away.
But he can't bring himself to say less to throw away and the
master who is just being cruel says it.
And there's, there's a wonderful moment where, where that master
like the John Sim master does the razor voice and says how boring
she was to live with for 10 years and how great, you know, how it
was all worth it, just to see the doctor's face when he found out
that she was a cyberman.
Oh, that's cruel.
It's really, but the great thing about it is she says I'm not
upset when she's a cyberman as a cyberman.
And he says, oh, well, that takes all the fun out of cruelty then
doesn't it?
And then we come back to Beale, who is absolutely devastated.
It's so brutal.
Pearl Mackey is so great in those scenes.
Like, she's seriously one of the best regulars who we've had since
the show came back.
Yeah, I know, she's incredible.
The other the other incredible bit is where she says, you said
that you could make this right again, and the doctor says yes.
And she says, were you lying?
And he says, no.
And then she says, were you right?
And he says, no.
It's so, it's so brutal.
It's so hard.
The thing is, though, he has built a whole cyborg body for Nardol
out of spare parts that looks like Nardol's original body.
So just saying, the Nardol is kind of a comedy character in a way
that Billy is.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, it was to have Handel's head on it.
Yeah, Hernando still has his head.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Yeah.
No, I think that because those characters are kind of operating on
different registers.
You know, he's a more silly science fiction character.
He used to be blue, apparently, we learned last week. and his
hair's invisible.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a bit like, yeah, the laws of time forbid us from
rescuing Adric, but not from rescuing literally anyone else
because it because it's a different situation and it's, you know
we're not going for the silent credits with everyone else.
So we have to be able to not rescue Adric.
I would have loved for the doctor to defuse the entire situation
by sidling up to the sidemen whispering to them what happened when
they teamed up with the master in the fight.
That would have been a delicious throwaway.
The strength of this character to be able to stand there and stand
up to the master and the way that is written is just
extraordinary.
But even her whole, you know, we're not going to get out of this
one, are we?
It's just this inevitability that we're sinking in to all of us.
Like, we're not going to get out of this.
Yeah, we're not going back on this And you know, we see that
regeneration energy.
We know where we're headed, you know?
I think the only times that I felt like that in that particular
way is at the end of Mind Warp.
And at the end of Caves of Androzani.
And that feeling, I think it's stronger here.
I mean, I think that, you know, this isn't quite a regeneration
story, really, because he doesn't regenerate at the end, of course
it was meant to be. of course, it was meant to be.
And if so, it is perhaps one of the strongest regeneration stories
that the show has ever done.
And why is he regenerating initially because he gets electrocuted
by the cyberman on the rooftop?
And then he gets shot by a whole bunch of them later on.
So there's that.
I think once you see that in his hand, it's inevitable, which
again is why that thing in the lie of the land was such a stupid
mistake.
Oh, yeah, shouldn't have gone there.
Yeah.
That's all part of that same discussion, like that beautiful
discussion.
Isn't there a tier?
doesn't doesn't the sermon have a tear and the doctor say like
well, this tears is hope. which is, you know, again, foreshadowing
the end of the episode.
Yeah.
And it's, it's just a real, these character moments that Stephen
Moffat allows us to have here at the final end, not only between
these two, but between the doctor and the masters and with Nard
just sublime.
The thing that all good regeneration stories have is that they're
epic and elegiic and the doctor's desperate that is broken down
throughout the story.
That all happens here.
This would be probably the best regeneration story of the show's
history if it physically happened in the story.
Yeah, it doesn't take away from it that it doesn't.
I'd like to talk about, like, missing the master and all of these
scenes together.
I just think they play off each other just so well and I spoke a
bit last week about the energy that John Sim is bringing to this
role up against Michelle Gomez, which is a different energy.
It's written differently, as Simon said, but I just think he is
such a talented actor.
Here you can really see what he can do, like, in a vein that I
would like him to go in.
In all of that, like, you know, just the whole, there's a lot of
exposition they have to get through.
They do it in a funny way, in a way that you can see that miss is
conflicted.
I love the fact that we're talking about timelines out of sync, we
can't retain memories.
The whole business, about a really scary lady.
That's so good.
With the dear materialisation circuit.
Like, that is so clever.
Like, it's very moffity. absolutely a thing that he's done
before.
It's like time crash. or something like that.
But it's so brilliant.
You know, a very, very scary lady pinned me up against a wall and
said, always carry a spare dematerialisation circuit with you.
It's so perfect, isn't it?
It's wonderful.
Having said that, when she does pin him up against the wall and
big shudder, you get the scene where the master says he has a hard
on for missing.
All I can think about is how that scene would have played out
between Pertwee and Trouter.
Oh, you found my recorder.
Remember when Kurt we had to fill in the insurance form from the
sea devil saying that his ribs had been damaged by a cylindrical
metal device?
I actually really like it.
Fantastic.
You know, Todd, what you were saying, Ashley, for who the 1st half
of this episode, all we really get is just Missy and the Sim
Master sparring off each other and acting as a kind of Greek
chorus, you know, pouring aspersions on what the doctor's trying
to do, but then it all changes in one really amazing scene halfway
through the episode.
So initially it looks like Missy has just gone over to the
master's side, that the presence of the old master, her old self
is enough to kind of remind her that that's what she wants to be.
She wants to be like that.
And then there's the moment where the doctor says, like, knock
yourself out, I think, sort of casually on the rooftop to both of
them.
And Missy knocks the master out and then says, no, no, no, I was
just pretending I'm on your side all along.
And there's a, the way it's played, it's kind of like she doesn't
want the doctor to press it too much and the doctor doesn't want
to press it.
And it's still ambiguous.
It's still absolutely not clear where she stands.
Yes, Missy, whatever her morals are, whether she's sort of decides
to hook up with the doctor or not.
She's still missy.
She's playful in that way. never quite know where she stands.
Was she on the brink of turning bad?
you know, because of this influence that he has over her.
Like, she's wavering and that's, and that's really good, like, for
us as a viewer, to see that and and to be unsure we stand
throughout most of this.
What is brilliant, I think, is that the whole reason we have 2
masters here is that we have a traditional master and missy, and
that represents the conflict.
It's like 2nd chances on Star Trek, the Next Generation, where you
have a science fiction reason to double people, and then the 2
people are the same person, but they're feeling different things.
And so Missy is the missy who feels remorse, who wants to stand by
the doctor's side. different experiences.
Yeah, that's right.
She's been through all of the things that happened to her while
she was missy, whereas the Sim Master hasn't.
But we still get missy being conflicted.
Moffatt doesn't go, well, I've got a master over here that can be
the evil one and then we'll have Missy.
Missy is still conflicted.
And it's wonderful because you're getting Michelle Gomez to play
all of that sort of stuff.
And she does it with just the perfect amount of ambiguity, I
think.
And we're used to her being sort of whimsical, fun, missy, but she
can bring an intense sobriety to some scenes, where her face just
falls and you're really not quite sure what's going on behind
that.
All this like is pivotal. comes to a head in the scene with the
doctor at dusk where he's asking them to stand with him because
it's kind.
It's where I stand, where I fall, stand with me.
And Peter Capaldi has delivered some speeches in his time as the
doctor.
But yet again, he just plays this to perfection.
And the reaction of the SIM master is so perfect in that moment
but you watch I watch Michelle Gomez in the background before.
And even the moments afterwards, and even when they just have that
little, they lock hands as she grabs his hand.
She grabs his hand.
Like, it's with her to sort of signal.
I might be saying this, but I'm going to stand with you.
Or, you know, giving him hope that although she's saying one thing
she's going to do another.
It's really ambiguous though, isn't it?
It's so good because she says thank you for trying, but no.
It's a visceral speech.
It means something for the doctor.
That howl that he lets out as they're walking away or he just
screams no at them.
You know, it means something to him because as he points out
earlier in the episode, it's his oldest friend in the universe.
He can't let them go.
He has to try to make them see sense.
And we talked last week about the speech that the doctor gives
George in the control room about how I'm going to save you and
everyone on this ship and everything's going to be great and
you're going to be shaking your head in wonderment at how great I
was and how I managed to save everyone and then compare it to this
speech.
You know, I don't do it because it's fun.
I don't do it because it's easy.
I don't even do it because it works because most of the time it
doesn't. do what I do because it's right.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's so different, you know, like that those 2 speeches
bookend, these 2 part are in such a brilliant way, I think.
It's such a great mission statement for the doctor and gets it
just right in a way that may be the same kind of speech at the end
of twice upon a time over exit a little bit.
Yeah, 0 yeah.
No, that's terrible.
We'll get there No, it's not.
I'm not on that episode.
No, it's not.
I'm standing.
I'm taking a stand.
This is where I stand.
That whole scene is just electric, and I think what sets it apart
from the other Capoldi speeches is it's so unvarnished.
Like, you touched on it just now, Nathan.
Like the other Capaldi speeches are about convincing the humans or
in George's case, the blue people.
You know, it's about convincing them of his authority.
This is someone, he's speaking to someone who is fully aware of
his authority.
There is no hiding from this person.
And so we just get this completely unvarnished account of the
doctor's character.
And kind of it's paying off way back in series 8.
We had this doctor of questioning his entire being, you know, and
his entire purpose.
And even sort of at the end of series 8, we get that discussion
about, you know, not liking hugs because you're hiding your face
and he lies to Clara about having found Gallifrey and what have
you.
It's kind of like now where at the end of his tenure, it's... getting
this completely without pretence, without theatricality, without
any sort of mask on this doctor.
And it kind of finally puts to bed that question of, am I a good
man?
It's like unquestionably because this is who you are when
everything else is stripped away.
It's also, I think, again, it was a mission statement for Doctor
Who.
But what the doctor does there takes me back to Doctor Who's
earliest days, you remember those lovely closing moments from the
Aztecs, where the doctor's comforting Barbara, and he says, we may
have lost the day, but you saved one man, and this is it.
You know, he may he may have lost the day here.
You know, he may have lost a lot here, but he kind of saves Missy
and that's important.
So, of course, that is then followed by the scene with the 2
masters together.
And the thing that I really, really liked, because you can never
be sure with Missy whether she's being sincere or not, because
there's so much performance.
And we did see, I think, some sincerity on her face when she was
listening to the doctor's speech.
But that moment when she holds him, uh, she holds John Sims master
like Servoland, um, holding lights.
Exactly like that, actually, because she does kill him then.
Not with a big crystal.
No, that's true.
Where she says, you were like a whole burning planet.
You were like a, you know, I loved being you and I'll never forget
what it was like to be you.
And like, that's not just John Sims master because we said last
week that, you know, this John Sims master is the master, you know
as he's been up until now.
And I just think that's really great.
The way that she says, yes, you know, like, I did bad things and I
did things that I regret, but I loved being you, but it's over
now.
I had all my fun.
I was a rebellious teenager.
It's time to grow up and settle down.
Yeah, yeah, but also there's nothing left.
Do you know what I mean?
Like last week where you had the doctor say that he and the master
had a plan where they were going to see all of the stars.
There's no stars anymore.
They're trapped under a holographic sky.
They're not going to survive, and that's the time where she says
actually, I am just going to go and stand with the doctor because
this is where we were always going.
It's just beautiful and obviously the master then shooting her in
the back and telling her that she can't regenerate.
Like, you've got to get missy out of the story for the rest of the
story to work.
But I do regret the fact that he says you were unable to
regenerate.
I just kind of think, well, can't you just leave it to regenerate
or die or something?
I don't know, she did regenerate.
Obviously, yeah, so he's lying.
I don't know.
So, I think that there is a core of Doctor Who that a showrunner
should probably not touch.
And one of the problems I had, for instance, with the timeless
child, was that everyone at home who doesn't really care about
Doctor Who, at least knows that they're a timelord from the Planet
Galafre, you know?
They're a little bit more knowledgable, don't know it's in the
constellation.
Exactly right.
Galactic coordinates.
Sorry.
So you don't get to change that in a way.
And I think Moffat has always played with that boundary.
I think he's always been aware of it.
And he's always played with it and things like listen where he
starts to fill in the doctor's backstory a bit or where you see
the doctor and Susan stealing the TARDIS at the beginning of name
of the doctor.
You nibble around the edges.
Just enough.
But here he kind of kills the master.
And he does kill her, like it's not just the line of dialogue, but
also the special effect, which is, you know, she becomes
transparent.
We see her skull through her head and all of that sort of thing.
So it's very clear that this is the end and she dies and that kind
of works.
And I do like her reaction to it as well, which is pretty great.
I mean, you had to have mutually assured destruction.
And you had to have them both find it hilariously funny.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so there's an ampas, you know, like the 2 halves of the
character can't come to any kind of accommodation and so they just
destroy themselves.
But not before Missy says, I am going to stand with the doctor
because that's what I've always wanted and where we've always been
going.
And the doctor said to her earlier.
That's the only thing that I've ever wanted as well.
I think it's kind of sad that doesn't get to see that.
Yes, it's heartbreaking.
Yep, he never knows.
But it does fit the theme of without hope, without witness, without
reward.
It's an entirely selfless moment for her.
And that's kind of what the doctor's been teaching.
You know, you're not being good to impress me.
Charity is my charity if it's performative.
And, you know, I think Stephen Moffatt does do something clever
with it in that it's hinted, but not overtly stated that John Sim
is going to regenerate into Michelle Gomez because their memories
surrounding this are murky at best.
And so I think Stephen Moffat has done that in order to say if
Chris Chibnall or whoever takes on Doctor Who after that wants to
bring the master back, we can always say this is between John Simm
and Michelle Gomez.
Or it's not.
I think it's significant that we do never say that.
And I also don't think that it works in the context of a long
running program.
Like, that's such fan wank, I think, to say, you know, it's
actually the master between the bald guy and Peter Pratt now.
And like, like, I just kind of think, who cares?
Like, the fact is, when the master comes back, there's none of
this ambiguity.
None of the sort of interesting nuance that Michelle Gomez brought
to the character.
And I think that's a shame.
I think it would have been a good idea to just leave the master
alone. for a bit longer and then bring them back at a point where
you don't properly have to explain that or something.
Yeah, not to the same audience that's watching the show 3 years
later.
You know, you bring it back, something happened in a classic
series, something happened in a new series.
That's a golf.
You can do whatever you want.
Well, it's like when he bought Missy into the show.
There'd been a gap with the master.
Yeah, and you never really properly explained like there's lines
here and there, but you can fill in gaps as you need to.
I mean, certainly the master is playing it.
There's that fantastic moment where he's there applying eyeline
just kind of getting to practice.
So they're 18, that style.
So great.
Similar kind of outlook on the world.
So brilliant.
That is a great moment, is it?
With his eyeliner.
I love the fact they don't even, so to speak, highlight it.
No, it's amazing.
There's no comment on it or anything and it's just there.
He's just getting practising.
But it's so it's so John Simms.
Like, I just, you know, it just is.
And interestingly enough, John Simm, once he knew he was coming
back, binge watched Peter Capaldi's 1st 2 seasons to get an
impression of what he was getting into, but Cho...
What did he think of the woman who lived?
It should have been a Farrell.
But he declined to rewatch any of his previous stuff because as
far as he was concerned, even before he got the script, he's like
this is my master years later. don't want to play in the same
way.
I want to approach it with the memory of what I did, not the
actuality of what I did and with how I would play it now and with
how I would play it meeting Michelle Gomez's version.
And I think that gives us a much stronger performance than we've
seen from him before.
Well, that's him and Simon both.
They both decline to watch those episodes.
That is so considered.
Like, you know, what a good actor to be able to come to that
conclusion and take that on board and decide that's the journey
I'm going to go on.
Like that really does impact the whole performance here.
And it's what the script wants him to do, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brilliant.
So we're wrapping up the Masters.
We've got Nardol and who's the next person that we need to sort of
say goodbye to.
Here's what I'm going to say.
What?
It may be the best companion departure in the new series.
It really is absolutely amazingly good.
It feels so appropriate somehow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's someone who never had an arrival.
Do you know what I mean?
Like by the time we realised he was travelling with a doctor, he'd
been doing it for a while.
The Bonnie Langford arc.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So all of that's very strange.
But, like, it's the moment where the doctor describes what he has
to do, which is kind of to stay on this floor and blow himself up
compared to having to help these people start a new life and
defend them if necessary.
Ends up as a protector for a bunch of kids Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's which of which of you are stronger.
And Matt Lucas actually makes it clear why he's stronger.
Like he is the stronger one.
Made of metal.
Well, there's that.
But it's also just the idea that the doctor can't trust himself to
stay in one place for a long period of time.
Let's not think about time of the doctor for a second. can't trust
himself to stay in one place for a period of time to do a job and
he needed Nardol there to criticise him, keep him on track, prevent
him from running away and all of that.
There's something in Matt Lucas's performance that brings that out
that, yes, you know, I am stronger than you.
And I think that's really good.
This is where we've always been heading.
Yeah, yeah, but there's also that Bill says to him, you'll think
of the right words later, and he says, he never will be able to
find the words.
So strength of the characters, the strength of his performance and
with commented before comic actors, when they're given dramatic
stuff to do, really do come to the party, 99.9% of the time.
But also, you know that he's going to defend these people on
another level.
And they're still on this ship and the cybermen will still be
coming for them one day.
There is an inevitability to their destruction and that is just
heartbreaking as well.
There's a sobriety to his performance that we've seen flashes of
before.
I can remember moments in oxygen, where it's the same.
And it really makes you think that, yes, although he is comic
relief, there's a whole lot more to him.
And it puts me in mind of another of my favourite companion
departures from the classic series, which is Turlow, because it's
so low-key and understate and someone just going off to do what
they have to do.
In fact, even though he says, I will never find the right words.
The very next scene has him directing those people, encouraging
them, you know, caring for them, looking after them, like saying
just the perfect thing, to make it clear that he's absolutely the
right fit for the job.
He always had the right words.
Yeah, yeah, it's really good.
It is really great.
I was surprised by how moved I was by that.
But it's also good that we then see him with the kids.
Yeah.
On a new level, having a life.
They're safe for now. you know what I mean?
And that's all that ever happens.
All you ever get is safe for now, I think.
And so I think that's a good ending.
Like bad things will happen inevitably they will.
But we have a good ending for him.
I think it's I think it's really great.
And it just adds to the feeling of the episode, the melancholy
that you know this era is wrapping up.
You think, okay, this is the last time I'm going to see Nuttle.
This is the goodbye scene you realise halfway through.
Yeah.
There's a line that was cut in an earlier stage of the draft.
And it's interesting because I think it shows how Stephen
Moffatt's writing kind of works as he goes through drafts.
When the doctor's saying goodbye to Nardol, one of the last things
he says to him is, I like saving lives, please do me the courtesy
of allowing me to save yours.
And on the surface, that's a lovely line, but what we get on
screen instead is much subtler and allows the actors to imbue that
meaning into the words without just saying it outright.
And sort of reading up the development of this script.
There's a lot of dialogue that goes by the wayside over various
drafts that is fine and functional and not clunky, but what it
gets changed into renders that original line as the subtext.
And I think that's a beautiful example in that, if Peter Capaldi
had said that, I still would have been in floods of tears in that
scene, but what we get with those lines about responsibility and
service is so much better, but still says that not only does the
doctor want to save Nadol, Nadol is doing the doctor a favour by
leaving because it's the doctor doesn't have to worry about him in
the moment.
I also think what's interesting is that neither companion leaves
on good terms with the doctor.
And so there's a sort of comedy line, isn't there?
When Dole says, I'm going to name a town after you, but it'll be a
really rubbish one.
And probably a pig.
You're probably a pig.
And then there's Bill, who was abandoned by the doctor for 10
years and came too late to rescue her.
She doesn't torment him because of that, but there isn't a good
goodbye for them either.
And so she has that thing where she says, remember how I like
women and people my own age.
And he says, yes, and she says, good, I'm glad you know that.
And she kind of leaves.
She said something I can't think of anything.
Yeah, we can't think of anything to say to one another at this
point.
I've got nothing.
Like, I've got nothing to say.
And so he never sees her again after that.
Like that's the end of the relationship.
It doesn't end in a good way.
But it's also heartbreaking too, because then later on when she
actually is in the TARDIS and she gets to say things to him.
Yes.
He never hears, like, he doesn't really hear that.
I mean, maybe he does with the tear and that and that's why we're
heading to a regeneration, but he doesn't actually hear it like
one-on-one, you know?
I mean, in a way, we walk that back in the next episode, but
there's a few months and maybe we just have to do that.
And it is perhaps that thing that he pulled at the end of series 8
where series 8 ends on a very bleak note.
And it's so bleak that Santa has to break into the closing credits
to tell us that everything's going to be all right at Christmas.
Here it is bleak and we leave in a bad way, but it is kind of
inevitably fixed, I think, in the Christmas special.
It's surprising though, isn't it?
It is.
And I mean, that scene with Bill and Stargirl in the TARDIS is
hopeful in its own way.
And the scene of Bill leaning over the prone doctor and her tears
is so pre-regeneration that even though it's not a regeneration, it
almost brings me to tears as well.
Yeah, yeah.
But also having her cyber body just collapse.
And then her standing there with Stargirl.
With all of the water pouring off them and stuff.
Yeah.
Rachel Tellerlay, like just masters this episode.
She's always amazing.
But everything you need is there on screen and so poetically
done.
But she nails that entire battlefield, like, you know, that whole
explosion and obviously the doctor leading up to that where he
lists all of the different cyber planets or planet 14.
Oh, so that's one thing that we didn't know.
Mariners.
What that?
So there has been a fan theory around for ages, and I think there
were some comics, areas of Action magazine comic in the other days
that suggested that the Vord turn into the cyberman or their sort
of proto-cyberman in some way.
So that's a theory.
And so what Moffat has done is he's created a better backstory for
the Cybermen than we ever had before.
And the thing is that they're now inevitable.
There's something that happens to human beings eventually in
certain circumstances.
It's like Battlestar Galacturate, it's just cyclical.
Yeah, yeah.
And and so, you know, the original one was the 10th planet one
with Mondas.
And then we had Russell's one with sort of cybers industries and
stuff.
And that was kind of a little bit, it's spoiled slightly, I think
that series 2 thing by the fact that we discovered during the
course of that year that Billy's going to be left behind on that
parallel world.
And so they largely have to cut the idea that everyone's sick on
that parallel world.
And there is one surviving line of dialogue about it, but
otherwise we have to downplay it because that's going to be Rose's
final destination.
And so that backstory doesn't quite work.
The cyber cyberman backstory doesn't work at all.
But here we get it gloriously solved, that Zeidman just arise all
the time.
It explains planet 14, which was otherwise completely
inexplicable.
So it does all of this sort of weird ass fan.
Like, it's absolutely the opposite of a fan theory for the genesis
of the cybermen because it doesn't exhaust the idea.
So it didn't happen in this particular way.
Could have happened in any of this.
Yes, and it keeps happening.
They're all origins of the cybermen.
Everything is true.
So he does that in a sort of really cannon busting way while being
as fan wanky as possible.
So fan wacky, in fact, that Todd didn't even get one of the
references.
That's how deep the cut was.
What does it say about me, Nathan?
that you are a normal person?
Oh, thank God.
But yeah, but him like gets going through the forest and shooting
is like magic wand and just reeling off like, you know, Tellos and
Volga and Planet 14 and and every child everywhere.
Yeah, and the moon and then, and then the Mondassian Simon
stopping, stopping him in his tracks and, you know, they don't
need a doctor, but I'm the doctor, the original, you might say.
So I don't know if that line quite works, but it's there for a
reason, obviously.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's probably there because Peter Capaldi's like, oh, could
I say, could I say that bit from the 5 doctors, could I?
Could I?
It's interesting also with the whole Cybermen parallel evolution
thing in that it's something that Jerry Davis talked about because
of course, the novelisations of the moon base and tomb of the
Cybermen contain a prologue that doesn't mention Mondas.
It just says the side men came from Telos.
Yeah, exactly.
And Jerry Davis once said in an interview that as far as he's
concerned, the cybermen from Mondass and the cybermen from Telos
are separate and distinct groups of cybermen, and that also
explains the difference in appearance.
And he's like, but they evolved for the same reason in the same
way, is like much like different cultures on earth will come up
with the same concepts, same words, same technologies.
And then, of course, you know, we get to 1985 and Eric Sayward and
Ian Levine write a story that attempts to bring the continuities
together.
And I think both approaches are legitimate.
But I do love the idea that wherever there are humans or humanoids
they will always tend towards the cybermen.
And as for, as for the whole Planet 14 marinous thing, that comic
I believe it's called the World Shapers, is so wonderfully
ridiculous, and also Jamie McCrimon returns in it as an old man
and attacks, attacks the Cybervord, and yeah, it's the 6th Dr. and
Perry comic.
It is available in a collected edition.
I believe called the World Shapers.
So yeah.
It's Phobisher in it as well.
Frobisher is in it.
What about Mestor?
Why not?
Well, who says Frobisher wasn't messed over all the time?
Just, you know, messing about?
It's it's funny, isn't it, that I think the show becomes almost
immediately embarrassed by the 10th planet and by the way that the
cybermen were realised and even their backstory.
And I think junking the mondas thing where the cybermen come from
a planet that's just the earth only upside down.
Like I think they decide that's too silly and we're not going to
mention it again.
And it turns out, of course, that it's not too silly.
It's brilliant and it worked superbly.
And we lean into it.
This episode, we see Mondas.
I mean, we see Mondes on the screen.
Can you not use the word junking in relation to the 10th planet?
Just give me the PTSD.
What do you think about the return of, um, Heather and her as a
pilot?
Like, the whole, um, I don't want to say it like this, but I'll
say it get out of jail free card, but it is there, obviously, for
a reason, so we don't just have Bill is a cyberman.
Like that's it.
Beautiful shot of the star in the in the water, isn't it?
on the battlefield and then and then her appearing.
I think what is interesting is that Moffat doesn't allow the
doctor to fix the problem. that the doctor can't fix the problem
but someone new, a new kind of thing, a whole new sort of thing
can solve the problem.
And it's something that he already knew would happen when he was
riding the pilot.
And I think it's really terrific.
I think a little bit more magical, something a little bit...
When Clara leaves.
She also leaves with a woman to travel through time and space
forever.
So this is the 2nd time his pull that, right?
But Bill gets a whole new mythology and a whole new kind of
thing.
She's not travelling in a time machine from the planet Galafray.
Something different and strange and unknowable is happening.
And I do like that.
I think that makes it sufficiently different and sufficiently
interesting.
And heather succeeds where the doctor has failed.
The doctor couldn't protect or fix Bill, like he said he would, but
Heather managed it.
But Heather's evolved.
Like from those 1st episodes where she could only mimic and give
her tears.
Now, she can pilot the TARDIS, right?
She can appear wherever, like she's been following Bill.
She, whatever that thing was back in episode one, they said the
pilot is acquired.
Like she is something, some mystery that we'll never really know.
Yeah.
And the fact that also like she can make Bill Human again gives, I
think all of us a little bit of hope or there's something there at
the end of the episode where they'll turn up and make me human
again.
Well, it doesn't it doesn't foreclose any possibility.
It allows you to, like, because Clara's story was going to end
with her next heartbeat, like a heart to stop beating.
Right?
Are we between her 2nd last and her last ever heartbeat or
something like that and that's where these things are going to
happen.
Whereas Bill's story is much, much more open and it's kind of like
yes.
And in fact, I really like too, how Bill takes control. like it's
been 10 years for her more than 10 years since she met Heather.
I'll show you around.
You know, yes, she says, I can make you human.
I can send you back to earth.
You can continue making chips or we can do something different and
then she actually says, well, no, I'm going to show you around
first.
And so just the openness, because we're never going to see Bill
again.
And there's that beautiful moment where she says, I know the
universe is big.
She actually, does she quote from Curse of Fatal Death, or she
might nearly die. doesn't she?
Where she says, I can't believe you're gone because the universe
is going to need you again and you'll be back when that happens.
It's beautiful.
And then while there's tears, there's hope, which to me sort of
harks back to Sarah Jane crying over her to me back in the day a
number of times.
Yeah, it's just it's magical.
And it gives you hope and it's beautiful after all this horrible
stuff that's gone down.
It is beautiful.
And it's also it's gorgeous that it spills tear and her heartache
over the doctor that kind of manifests heather.
And the fact that the end of the previous episode was Bill with a
tear in her eye over what had happened.
It all sort of links back in.
And the pilot, the tear at the end of the pilot, which says isn't
mine.
And the tear goes on the doctor and then he wakes up.
But he has a flashback to every single companion, except for
Rory.
Why is this?
It annoys me to this day.
Why?
They had to fit in, Madame Vastra.
I know. don't understand.
Every flashback with companions has to leave one of them out.
Yeah.
Like in Resurrection of the Daleks.
Where's Louise?
Exactly.
It annoys me.
It annoys me to this day.
Yeah, yeah.
On the topic of Bill and Heather, I think what it really brings
around is the fact that the doctor understood what Heather had
become and allowed Bill to handle it way back in the pilot.
And then the fact that he decides not to white Bill's memory.
Those are the things that feed into heather being able to save the
bill and the doctor.
So it kind of harks back to sort of the Eccleston era where a lot
of the time the doctor didn't directly solve the problem. but
inspired others who stepped up and solved it.
Another thing it reminds me of is Astrid, you know, the best the
doctor can do is that Astrid is a semi-sentient cloud of sparkle
dust flying around the universe for the rest of time. pretty much
is Kylie Minogue.
Yeah that's true.
Yeah, 5 foot, nothing.
And I can say that.
So it's kind of like we are getting sort of a few old style
solutions, but as you touched on Nathan comparing it to Clara, it's
kind of like Stephen Moffatt.
First of all, and this is a direct quote from Stephen Moffat, his
motivation for this story was to do the worst possible thing to
Bill Potts and see if we could get back out of it.
But it also seems like he's gone, okay, where have sort of past
companion departures been cruel and let's not do that again?
So Bill doesn't get mind wiped the way Donna does.
She can return to her life, unlike Clara.
She is fully aware of what has happened to her, unlike Astrid.
Doesn't have a hair shaved off like perigrine.
Yep, absolutely.
Is it?
Isn't sent off.
To the upside of that.
You know, she is sent off to a country house to recuperate, but we
actually see her again on like dodo.
So, and of course, this was going to be Stephen Moffat's last
contribution to the program, I think this is him kind of going, I'm
still going to do my thing and everyone's going to suffer.
But I'm going to sort of respond to criticisms that were raised
raised against my writing and I'm going to do this and I cried
watching it again this morning, of course.
But I remember vividly in 2017, the 2nd heather came out of that
puddle.
I was just sobbing and I had I had to rewatch the last 10 minutes
because I missed it the 1st time around because I was just sobbing
so hard that we got...
But just that we got a wonderful ending. for 2 queer characters.
And a queer ending for 2 quick, Eric.
That's right.
I posed the question last week, you know, how did this feed into
the bury your gaze trope?
And I think you're absolutely right.
We do get a great ending in the end.
Do you know Bill and Heather's last name?
Uh, Hartnell.
Correct.
I think about these episodes.
This one, the last one in totality.
And, you know, these were meant to be Stephen Swong song.
And they are a modern classic.
They are best of in the modern series, I think.
And do you remember friendly podcast, Tom Spielsbury, who appeared
on The Magician's Apprentice with us.
He did the big Doctor Who magazine poll in 2023. and they only
listed the stories in doctor orders.
So you could never compare and contrast what they came, but he had
the big file, and we know that world enough and time, and the Dr
Falls came in 3rd overall in every story that has ever been.
They came behind Cave Zone, Design, and Blink, and ahead of the
city of death, these episodes are beloved, and for good reason.
But the ending is also, at the time, I was just absolutely stunned
like, you know, the doctors outside, says what he has to say, and
then you hear that voice through the snow and the fog.
And at the time I was going, I was lost for words.
I was just going, 0 my god, they're not doing this.
They can't be doing this.
You know, having had David Bradley in an adventure in space and
time.
And then he walks in and I, I was just sort of, I just thought, 0
my goodness, like, this is incredible.
What an ending.
So I haven't rewatched Ice Upon a Time since I watched it for the
1st time.
And I was...
Once upon a time.
Impressed, I have to say.
But I think it's super interesting, and I do think that Bradley's
performance in that moment is so good.
Like he nails it.
Like, you know it's the doctor straight away even before you see
him.
I think it is pretty incredible.
So it was a great conceit, but I just don't know how much I want
to watch an episode where the doctor essentially wants to kill
himself and as they'd persuade it not to.
I just think that's a bit miserable.
Well, maybe so, but at this point in time we don't really know
that.
Yes.
And so there's all this anticipation and I have watched twice upon
a time again.
And I think David Bradley's very good.
Unfortunately, he's got 6 lines in there, which is the worst 6
lines ever given too. the 1st doctor ever, right?
But he said, I'm going to put you over my knee and give you a
jolly good smack box.
Well, that's obviously the building.
The building block for the rest of the building, except Bill does
get a really good one up on the other 2 of them in the TARDIS, but
I'm sure you'll discuss that.
But just this doing this at the end of this, like, you know, how
is it going to end?
And having that, I was just blown away, you know?
And it's the beginning as well.
Like, in a sense, this is a regeneration story because it opens
with a doctor in the middle of regenerating, which is pretty
gray.
And so we end up there as well.
They both just encountered Mondassian cybermen.
They've both just encountered Mondace and Cybermen.
It's a full loop.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also, it's always kind of wonderful to see the South Pole
realised now in 2017 compared to how it was realised in 1966.
Hey, there was nothing wrong with the 1966 version.
But it does look amazing in 2017, I think.
I do think like the sort of ogry looking ice blocks surrounding
the TARDIS are a bit like, um, this is where the digital matte
painting starts.
All right, it's the second part of a two part story.
It's been a long while since we've done this, and that can only
mean picks of the week.
So, Todd, what would you like to recommend?
I have just returned from my honeymoon to the UK and I got the
opportunity to go to the BFI and watch the new extended cut of the
Happiness Patrol with new special effects.
It's absolutely glorious.
And that is my pick of the week.
If you get a chance to watch that on the Blu-ray.
Please do so.
My pick of the week will be the excellent horror of who podcast
hosted by Saul Merte from the Surgeons of Horror team.
Nathan and I appeared on a bunch of episodes talking about the
cybermen in the black and white years.
So I'd recommend that you track down Hartnell's horror part 4
where we discuss more about the Mondacian sidemen and why they're
so effective.
Yeah.
Brendan was on that before in fact.
Indeed.
My pick of the week is a fan project by the YouTuber George Shard
or George Shard.
I am not sure how I pronounces it, but it's written like Michael
Sheard.
Is there an apostrophe in there?
There is not an apostrophe.
So he's not sh-ard.
But he, a few years ago, did a wonderful re-edit of this story
called World and Often Time noir, where he reimagined it as a
black and white 60 story, cut it to 4 by 3 aspect ratio, used
things like space adventure and music concrete in the soundtrack.
You can find trailers for it on YouTube.
We're linked to one of those in the show notes, and from there, he
explains how to get the full version, because obviously he's not
going to upload the full version onto YouTube, but it is available
through private distribution.
Much like Todd's recommendation of the Happiness Patrol special
edition, it doesn't replace the original, but it's a really
fascinating way to watch it.
And my pick of the week is 500-year diary, because we are getting
very close to the end of this leg of our flight through entirety
we will be taking a couple of years off at least once we do our
Peter Capoldi retrospective on New Year's Day.
And what we will be doing instead is going back and taking another
different look at some of the things that we've already discussed
and exploring some things that we never had the chance to
explore.
There's already a season of 500 year diary called New Beginnings
where we look at some soft reboots for the main show and the pilot
episodes of a couple of spinoffs.
And at the beginning of next year, we will be doing a new season
called the 2nd coming, in which we look at the 2nd time.
We see some of the doctor's most fearsome adversaries.
I'm really proud of the 1st season of 500-year diary.
I think it was really good.
I really enjoy doing it.
I think you'll enjoy listening to it.
So you can find it wherever you get your podcasts and it's
available on its website, 500yearDiary.com.
Oh, and it doesn't matter, by the way, whether you use the
numerals or the words, both of them work.
You're very proud of.
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's all the time we have for this week.
We'll be back next week to behold what we've wrought over the past
few months in the Series 10 retrospective.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, flightthroughentirety
com, where you'll find our social media links as well as links to
all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts
500-year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.
Until next time, where there's tears, there's hope.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
Good night, everyone.
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Peter Griffiths.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, Safe for Now, was recorded on the 3rd of November
2024 and released on the 1st of December.
And now at the end of the series, it's time for us to thank the
people who joined us on the sofa of reasonable comfort this year.
B.J.
Hobbs, Melvin Peña, Kate Orman, Stephen B, Johnny Spandrel, Tom
Selinski, Toby Hadoke, and John Dorney.
We'll see you next week.
That reminds me, is Islambulance.com still active?
Yes, and it still points...
Fun finger.
And so just flight through in tiresome.com and flight through
entirety.sexy.
Also still...
It's the whole thing.
All right.
Peter has her heart out.
So we will we will say goodbye.
I've got to listen to this week's episode again.
But thank you very much.
That was really fun.
Grace, thank you, everyone.
Okay.
See you soon.
Bye.
Bye, bye, bye.